#203 – Anya Fernald: Regenerative Farming and the Art of Cooking Meat

Anya Fernald is the co-founder of Belcampo farms, chef, and regenerative agriculture expert. Please support this podcast by checking out our sponsors: – Gala Games: https://gala.games/lex – Athletic Greens: https://athleticgreens.com/lex and use code LEX to get 1 month of fish oil – Four Sigmatic: https://foursigmatic.com/lex and use code LexPod to get up to 60% off – Fundrise: https://fundrise.com/lex EPISODE LINKS: Anya’s Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/anyafernald Belcampo’s Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/belcampomeatco Belcampo’s Website: https://belcampo.com/ PODCAST INFO: Podcast website: https://lexfridman.com/podcast Apple Podcasts: https://apple.co/2lwqZIr Spotify: https://spoti.fi/2nEwCF8 RSS: https://lexfridman.com/feed/podcast/ YouTube Full Episodes: https://youtube.com/lexfridman YouTube Clips: https://youtube.com/lexclips SUPPORT & CONNECT: – Check out the sponsors above, it’s the best way to support this podcast – Support on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/lexfridman – Twitter: https://twitter.com/lexfridman – Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lexfridman – LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lexfridman – Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/lexfridman – Medium: https://medium.com/@lexfridman OUTLINE: Here’s the timestamps for the episode. On some podcast players you should be able to click the timestamp to jump to that time. (00:00) – Introduction (09:04) – Cooking is an art and a service (10:43) – Food is health (12:45) – Anticipation makes food taste better (14:36) – Lex on breaking the 72 hour fast (18:47) – Falling in love with cooking (20:28) – Alienation during the diet (23:09) – Cooking advice for minimalists (29:14) – Complexity of coconut oil (32:35) – Anya’s favorite meal (39:17) – Sources of heat (41:46) – Why do people freak out about barbecue (44:58) – Does the origin of the meat itself make a difference? (47:06) – What is regenerative farming? (51:16) – AI will be a better farmer than humans (55:17) – Carbon negative farming is possible right now (57:04) – Certified Humane (1:00:34) – Evolutionary diet of animals (1:03:17) – Neuralink can help us understand animals (1:07:13) – All grass-fed meat made the same? (1:11:57) – Health benefits of grass-fed beef (1:16:29) – What does it take to be a woman CEO of a meat company? (1:23:57) – Making cheese for Italian mafia (1:27:56) – How to judge a good meal? (1:29:58) – The best meal in the world (1:37:48) – Anya played oboe in the Sicily municipal band (1:39:23) – Hunting has inspired regenerative farming (1:44:07) – Meaning of life (1:45:27) – Advice for young people: grow through discomfort

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Lex Fridman?

  The following is a conversation with Anya Fernald, co-founder of Belcampo Farms that was founded with the purpose to create meat that's good for people, the planet, and the animals, specifically treating their animals as ethically as possible. In this, she sought to revolutionize the meat industry from the inside out. She's also a scholar and practitioner of regenerative agriculture, and she's a chef who has appeared many times as a judge on Iron Chef. Plus, she has one of my favorite food-related Instagrams. On top of that, she's also a longtime friend of Andrew Huberman, which is how we first got connected. Quick mention of our sponsors: Gala Games, Athletic Greens, Four Sigmatic, and Fundrise.

• 0:45Lex Fridman?

  Check them out in the description to support this podcast. As a side note, let me say that I got the chance to visit and spend a few days with Anya at Belcampo Farms in Northern California. I met many animals there, from cows to pigs, and saw the amazing land on which they grazed. I butchered meat, I watched Anya cook many amazing meals, I ate raw meat and cooked meat, and spent long hours at the bonfire, talking with friends and listening to the sounds of nature. I hiked, swam in a cold mountain lake, and slept in a tent underneath the stars. It was an amazing, eye-opening experience, especially in my first-ever visit to a slaughterhouse.

• 1:29Lex Fridman?

  The term "slaughterhouse" is haunting in itself. The animals I met lived a great life, but in the end, they were slaughtered in the most ethical way possible, but slaughtered nevertheless. Seeing animals with whom, just the day before, I made a connection, be converted to meat that I then consumed was deeply honest to me. This ethical farm, Belcampo, represents less than 1% of animals raised in the United States. The rest is factory-farmed. I could not escape the thought of the 40 to 50 billion animals worldwide raised in terrible conditions on these factory farms. I've spent most of my life thinking about and being in contact with

• 2:12Lex Fridman?

  human suffering, but the landscape of suffering in the minds of conscious beings is much larger than humans. I must admit that I still am haunted by human suffering more than animal suffering. Perhaps I will one day see the wrong in me drawing such a line. Either way, the visit to Belcampo Farms made me realize that I have not thought deeply enough about the ethics of my choices and the choices of human civilization with respect to animals. And more importantly, I have not thought or learned enough about large-scale solutions to alleviate animal suffering. Belcampo is paving the way on this and is the reason I wanted to show my support for their and Anya's efforts in regenerative farming and ethical treatment of animals.

• 2:58Lex Fridman?

  As usual, I'll do a few minutes of ads now, no ads in the middle. I think those get in the way of the conversation. I try to make these interesting, but I give you timestamps, so if you skip, please still check out the sponsors by clicking the links in the description. It is the best way to support this podcast. I'm very picky about the sponsors we take on, so hopefully if you buy their stuff, you get value out of it, just as I have. Speaking of value, let's talk about games. This show is sponsored by Gala Games, a fascinating new sponsor. They have created a gaming ecosystem on a blockchain where in-game assets are NFTs that you can keep, trade in the game and outside the game. They are attracting big game designers and I think have a real chance to revolutionize

• 3:43Lex Fridman?

  what it means to play video games, since you can take items in one game and carry them outside of that game and over to another game, maybe a later version of that game. Once Diablo IV comes out, I definitely will play it. And the same is true for certain other games like Grand Theft Auto, if a new version ever comes out, and certainly if there's another version of Elder Scrolls, I'm all in. And the idea that you can have items that you get in the game and there is a provable uniqueness through the process of NFTs to that item, such that you can take it out of the game, sell it to somebody else, or more importantly, keep it and carry it. Forward throughout your life. I mean, that makes the game so much more immersive because it blends what it means to be in a virtual world versus the real world.

• 4:25Lex Fridman?

  That to me is fascinating and it gives so much more opportunity to design gaming experiences in the hands of like the best game designers in the world. So I'm very excited by the whole idea and definitely by the scale and the intensity of effort from Gala Games. I started playing the town simulation game that they have called Townstar. I created a very creatively named town called Lexington and started building stuff. I loved it. If you want to join me in the game, you're welcome to. I wish I had more time to play video games. Honestly, it brings me so much joy. Anyway, check out gala.games/lex. That's gala.games/lex. This show is sponsored by Athletic Greens, the all in one daily drink to support better

• 5:08Lex Fridman?

  health and peak performance. It replaced the multivitamin for me and went far beyond that with 75 vitamins and minerals. It's the first thing I drink every day. I break the fast of that and I usually drink twice a day. And they have all these iterations. They have all these versions. It's almost like a software on GitHub with releases. And I think they have a new version coming out. It's basically the same exact drink. And they just keep iterating on improving and improving based on the current science of nutrition. And the funny thing is this is basically all they do is this one drink. They also have fish oil and I think you get one month's supply of fish oil for free once you sign up. So that's another thing I take is fish oil. So it's electrolytes, fish oil and Athletic Greens for all the nutrition and the vitamins.

• 5:52Lex Fridman?

  It tastes great. It's refreshing and it just ensures that I get the nutritional base for all the other crazy dietary things I choose to partake in, including fasting. So Athletic Greens is definitely one of my favorite sponsors. You should go sign up now to athleticgreens.com/lex. That's athleticgreens.com/lex for the drink and the fish oil. Trust me, it's awesome. This show is sponsored by Four Sigmatic, the maker of delicious mushroom coffee and plant-based protein. I start the day, every day with their coffee. I don't know if it's the caffeine or the smell of coffee. Or just the warm drink. There's something, once I drink that first cup of coffee, it's the meme, the cliche thing, but my mind just turns on and it's ready to focus.

• 6:37Lex Fridman?

  Those first couple of hours in the day of deep focus and productivity are just incredible. And I feel like the routine of that is essential. And for me, I think for millions of people, coffee is a big part of that routine. On top of that, there's a bunch of stuff with Four Sigmatic that makes it healthy. You should go check it out. But to me, the important thing is that it's delicious. And it doesn't taste like mushrooms, in case you were wondering. I have a lot of fond memories about gathering mushrooms in the woods with my grandmother. That was a big Soviet, that was a big Russian thing to do. I thought of her as like the greatest botanist in the world, since there's so many mushrooms, or at least I thought there's so many mushrooms that could kill you. And she always knew which ones are good for you, which are not, and we would make soup with them.

• 7:19Lex Fridman?

  So I have a soft spot in my heart for mushrooms. Maybe that's also why I like Four Sigmatic. Get up to 40% off and free shipping on mushroom coffee bundles if you go to foursigmatic.com/lex. That's foursigmatic.com/lex. This episode is also sponsored by Fundrise, spelled F-U-N-D-R-I-S-E. It's a platform that allows you to invest in private real estate. If you're looking to diversify your investment portfolio, this is a good choice. I still believe you should diversify across all kinds of assets. Private real estate is a fascinating one, on top of stuff you might be doing with mutual funds or anything you're doing in cryptocurrency. In fact, there's been quite an increase in inflation recently.

• 8:02Lex Fridman?

  And I've been listening to a bunch of economists sort of try to dissect what that means. And I've been a little bit surprised that an increase in inflation has not been, as far as I can tell, coupled with increased prices for cryptocurrency. Because I saw crypto as a hedge against inflation. Of course, nobody really understands how the hell this whole complicated stock market, cryptocurrency market, all of those things work, how the economy works. It is such a fascinating, infinitely complex game theoretic process that involves millions of humans in that mess and chaos of a Process, I think diversification is still very powerful. And so you should definitely check out Fundrise at fundrise.com/lex.

• 8:45Lex Fridman?

  150,000 investors use it. It takes just a few minutes to get started at fundrise.com/lex. F U N D R I S E fundrise.com/lex. This is the Lex Fridman Podcast and here is my conversation with Anya Fernald.

• 9:12Lex Fridman?

  If you're watching the video version of this and are asking yourself why we're in nature right now. There's actually a beautiful mountain in the background. There's an incredible vast landscape. There's a farm.

• 9:26Lex Fridman?

  We're sitting behind a table and nevertheless, I'm wearing a suit and tie amidst nature. We're at the beautiful Belcampo Farms. We're going to talk about that, this incredible place you have here. But you cooked some meat yesterday. It tasted delicious. So I'd love to talk about just the, the science and art of cooking first. You as a chef, when you think of cooking, is it a science or is it an art?

• 9:51Speaker 01

  Art and service together, probably. Art to me, because it's about creating something of beauty and being responsive and creating something that's expression of creativity and love. Cooking also has a very strong element of service. And it doesn't mean necessarily service to another person, but like service to health, wellness, environment. There's an element of supporting through food in how I approach cooking.

• 10:18Lex Fridman?

  So it's bigger than just like the, how the ingredients come together to form a taste. It's the whole pipeline, like the fact that there's a lot of work that went into bringing the ingredients together and then, you know, making you, giving you the ability to make the meal and then who gets to consume the meal and the whole thing. And you see that as service as opposed to just the taste.

• 10:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, I also think of food as one of the key ways that we interact with our environment. Right, we, it's the, the part of our environment that goes inside us most visibly. Right, of course, we interact with our environment. We could have skin creams that have certain things in them, or our clothes can then be absorbed. There's things in the air, there's our water, and there's food, right? It's like how we're engaging in the world physiologically. It's the most significant way we engage in our environment.

• 11:10Lex Fridman?

  We're extracting resources, calories, energy from the environment in various ways in order to preserve our bodies.

• 11:18Speaker 01

  There's also so many feedback loops that I don't think we know the beginning of, that our bodies are picking up on around nutrients, available nutrients, immune response. Like, there's deep levels of sensory evaluation that lead to health and alertness and wellness. You, you hear about this a lot, like with babies, that, you know, if there's a risk of an infection, that a mom's breast milk will help the baby develop a resistance. Like, there's this way that our bodies can tune into health, and can't extrapolate from that in any specific way, but think about that as an example of like, the many ways in which our bodies are reading available nutrients and food to signal other aspects of wellness and health.

• 12:01Lex Fridman?

  That said, the final product of cooking is, when done well, is really delicious. And what we ate yesterday was really delicious. So, that aspect of it, bringing the ingredients together, that, in a way that tastes delicious, do you see that as a science or art?

• 12:19Speaker 01

  That's the art of it. I mean, the art is like, creating temptation and indulgence and giving people pause, you know, like, giving, creating experience that's like, so sensual. And, like, I love that about when I make something really simple and beautiful and delicious, the way that, like, there's that moment of silence at the table, and that, to me, is the moment of art, like, of appreciation.

• 12:43Lex Fridman?

  What about the buildup? I mean, we got, we got to watch you make the stuff over a fire, so the, the calmness of the air, I mean, that's an experience. We don't often get to have, to see that experience of the, the preparation. It's the anticipation, like you said. Maybe that's the most delicious part of a meal, is the anticipation of it.

• 12:59Speaker 01

  That's something that I'm glad you bring up, because it's an element that, with eating so many of our meals, like, out of a bag, and... You know, the instance where you start to eat the meals when the delivery shows up.

• 13:10Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 13:11Speaker 01

  And you might smell something when you open the bag, right? And no judgment on that, that's something I do too, right? But that does take away a whole element of of surprise and delight. And also, I think of your body's ability to prepare for it. You know, you think about our most common memories of childhood. For those of us who grew up in homes with with parents who cooked is smell of things cooking. And it's not the eating of it, it's the smell of things cooking. So why is that so memorable? It's an anticipatory piece of food. That's what you remember about your experiences of food is the moment of like sweet anticipation of some of this great sensual experience. It's going to be really gratifying on these emotional and physical levels.

• 13:49Speaker 01

  So I think we're also resonating on those memories because it's like it's an experience of food where the sensuality of it is kind of extended. So it's a long kind of arc of buildup and then you're eating it and it's amazing. And then you're enjoying it and your body feels good. So all those pieces together, it's a much more memorable experience than just grabbing the cookie out of a bag. Right? So look at our own and just revisit in your mind, like the memories of food, the most compelling ones. It's the smell.

• 14:16Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 14:17Speaker 01

  And then the experience and then sometimes how one felt, right?

• 14:20Lex Fridman?

  Yeah, and the people involved with the smell. So like somehow it's all tied in together, whether it's family or people close to you. Or even if it's just chefs, there's something about the the personality of the human involved in making the food that kind of sticks with you in the memory. And for me, I recently did a 72 hour fast. And there's a there's a kind of sadness after you eat that it's over. I think the most delicious part was the I went to a grocery store and just actually walking around and looking at food with like everything looked delicious. Even like the crappiest stuff looked delicious and I I missed that. I I really enjoyed that anticipation and then I picked out the meal. I went home and I cooked it and the whole thing took, I don't know, maybe two, three hours, like the whole process.

• 15:05Lex Fridman?

  And that was the most delicious part and the first taste, of course. And then after after it was over, there's a bit of a sadness. Because the part I remember is the the buildup, the anticipation. And then once you eat, it's over. We kind of focus on the destination, but it's the whole journey, the whole like, even if you go to a restaurant. It's the the conversations leading up to the meal and the first taste of the meal. That's where the joy is. And if you get to watch the making of that meal, that's incredible. That's where the smell, the visual, how the ingredients come together. Especially as we were looking over the fire, like watching it, the fire play with the raw meat.

• 15:49Lex Fridman?

  And you know, over time, bring out the colors, bring out the, I don't know, like you can visually associate the flavor, you know, how it becomes a little bit burnt on the outside, you know, it has a crispiness to it, it starts to gain that crispiness and immediately your past memories of the delicious crispiness of various foods you've eaten are somehow mapped into your, immediately you start to taste it visually. I don't know, yeah, that experience is magical. It's, and of course, maybe it's the Russian thing, but I'm almost like saddened when it's over.

• 16:21Speaker 01

  I think fasting is gaining in popularity because we're having to relearn the importance of being hungry.

• 16:28Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 16:28Speaker 01

  In anticipation and delight.

• 16:30Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 16:31Speaker 01

  We have such a fear of hunger, and that's really functional in evolution, right? But we have this deep fear of hunger and part of the great American experience has been that we don't have to be afraid of hunger at all because there's food everywhere and it's really cheap. In all that abundance, we've lost this edge of hunger and we don't let ourselves get hungry. And that's one thing that I learned in part of my journey as a cook and chef has been, you know, moving abroad was the first time when I lived out of the US, it was the first time that I regularly experienced hunger because the time between meals was really long and that was just what everybody did. And so I was hungry for two hours before lunch and that was the first time in my life

• 17:16Speaker 01

  that there hadn't just been readily available snacks. So I wonder if the intermittent fasting and part of the popularity around it, it, I'm sure there's all these amazing metabolic things that are happening, but also people might also feel better because they're really anticipating and enjoying food. And then if you look at the feelings of fullness, there's a really interesting thing that happens when you cook and your sense of fullness, which is if you cook and you're hungry, the experience of being around the food, smelling it, touching it, sampling it, you'll take your hunger down by 40%. And this is my own observation, but as I mean, we've all had the experience of cooking Thanksgiving and the cook never kind of wants to eat that much Thanksgiving. That's

• 18:01Speaker 01

  an extreme experience.

• 18:02Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 18:02Speaker 01

  But when you really dive in and you're cooking for a few hours and you're smelling and smelling and smelling, it totally changes your threshold of satiety and fullness because of other sensory things that are happening.

• 18:14Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 18:15Speaker 01

  And for those of us looking to, you know, to maintain weight and something to consider in this is that cooking is also part of the, part of what your appetite, when you're hungry, what are you hungry for? Right? So we tend to think about calories, but when you're hungry, you might also be hungrier for a wider range of things. And it might be smells, it might be stopping. There's other elements and that's something I think as a cook that it's, it's powerful to explore and be with and observe how your hunger changes when you're cooking.

• 18:46Lex Fridman?

  Well, let me ask the romantic question. When did you first fall in love with cooking?

• 18:51Speaker 01

  Me falling in love with cooking was about solving a problem in my family. And it had to do with my mom feeling very anxious about cooking and overwhelmed frequently when it came to meals. And I'm naturally very good at juggling a lot of things. And it was just something I could dive in and help and help my dad, who's very, I'm very, very close to. So it was a very, it was a very functional role where I would see this kind of crescendo of anxiety around mealtimes as a kid and would be able to dive in and solve things.

• 19:35Speaker 01

  And I also loved women who cooked, like my, my father's mother is a great cook. She was, I remember her telling me as a kid, I, you know, I was asking her about church and why she went to church. And she's like, I mostly go to church because I get to cook for the, for the, you know, potlucks. And so there was a, there was an openness around that, that, but she just loved to cook for people. And it was, and there was this real tenderness and expression of that love. So seeing women in my life who had this like real tenderness and. Love that they shared through food and then also being able in my own home to kind of pitch in and add value and and help my mom and dad was really powerful for me. Cause I felt like I had a superpower, you know, I felt like, oh man, I just made this stressful

• 20:20Speaker 01

  thing go away. Um, that was huge.

• 20:23Lex Fridman?

  It's kind of interesting. I don't know if you can comment on, especially for me growing up in Russia, it's probably true in a lot of cultures, maybe every culture, that food, and especially like in a family, the mother that cooks is the source of love and like ties the family together, creates events where everyone comes together. It's a, it's one of the only chances of togetherness of the thing that bonds a family is like dinner or food eating together. And I don't know what to do with that. It it ties up with like dieting and so on. When I was on stricter diets, especially competing and cutting weight and stuff, it felt like I was almost like losing opportunity to connect with friends

• 21:04Lex Fridman?

  and family. It's interesting. It it almost like cultures, we cannot fully experience love and family without eating. And on the flip side of that, eating enables us to experience love and family. I don't know what to do with that.

• 21:20Speaker 01

  It's a tough one because there's lots of layers around kind of gender roles and families changing and things.

• 21:27Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 21:27Speaker 01

  I'd say I agree around the alienation and I've done carnivore diet and I've tried some of these extreme protocols and I too, I suffered from loneliness. You know, it was like doing carnivore and and not being able to eat what my kids ate and talk about at the same time. Those pieces are real and I wonder with all of these diets, if that structure is actually helping or just taking away from people's kind of sensual understanding. But I think that there's some rigor around that that helps people discover what's good for them by eliminating and then growing towards more intuitive food is a good evolution

• 22:04Speaker 01

  from that base. I love to cook for people. I love to pay attention to their, their way of being and read what they'd like to eat. And it's my, my purest way of love. And that's for everybody in my life. I actually love to cook for people I love. You know, I don't, I, I, I would struggle to be, you know, putting out food all the time. It's like something for me, it's a real act of caretaking. So I definitely have that in my makeup. And, and I definitely notice in times of like, of, of real stress, that's the piece that drops off, right? And then, and it's like, if I'm unable to care for myself, I have a hard time cooking. So it's for me, it's very emotional. It's very connected to love.

• 22:51Lex Fridman?

  And individualistic, so like focused on the particular individual. It's almost like a, a journey of understanding what that person is excited about in the, in the landscape of flavors. Like figuring that person out, what they like, what they, what they love to eat. Yeah. Uh, I see cooking for, I mostly cook for myself. So I see that as almost a, okay. This is gonna be like the worst term, but like an act of self-love.

• 23:20Lex Fridman?

  This is gonna be clipped out.

• 23:23Lex Fridman?

  That like, it's almost an exploration of like, what brings me joy. And it's surprising because I usually don't share because the things that bring me joy are the simplest ingredients. Like I'm one of those people, I don't know if you can psychoanalyze me because you also like basic ingredients. I like a single ingredient to ingredients because I feel like I can deeply appreciate the particular ingredient then. I get easily distracted. You know, people who are really good at listening to music, they can hear a piece of music and in their mind extract the different layers and enjoy different layers at a time. Like the bass, the drums, the different layering of the piano, the beats and all that kind of stuff. That, that's what it means to truly enjoy music, to, to listen to a piece over and over. Like almost like as a scholar.

• 24:08Lex Fridman?

  In that same way for food, I just can't do more than like three because then it's just, I have to give in to the chaos of it, I guess. But when it's just a basic ingredient, like just meat or just a vegetable, like basic grilled without sauces, without any of that. That I've discovered is what brings me a lot of joy, but that's boring to a lot of people. So I usually have to be kind of private about that joy. So, but that's mine. So yeah, I figured that out. And I guess as a, as a chef, you have to figure that out about everybody that you care for.

• 24:41Speaker 01

  Well, also for you.

• 24:44Speaker 01

  You're very interested in things and interested in things being done well and appreciating them. So the single ingredient also allows you to control for perfection in cooking that, which is probably really appealing to you. And I think sometimes I see people also in the beginning of their journey of culinary, trying to do too many things, right? So there's another piece too, that you'll notice, if you recall last night, I grilled us the salad, right? And then I did all those pieces separately. And that's something in general, to be really attentive of when you're building flavor, to make sure you pay attention to every piece separately. You know, the idea that you can, okay, with a soup or something or stew,

• 25:25Speaker 01

  there's workarounds, but like to make a great dish that's got four or five vegetables in it, cook them all separately to their optimal deliciousness and then combine them. So that's another way to approach that is that you may also be able to look at the different ingredients separately and still have that sense of like, understanding of it. But there's too often that we're layering together like four or five things, and then cooking them all at once and then surprised that it's not delicious.

• 25:51Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 25:52Speaker 01

  Because you can't, you can't really optimize on multiple variables at the same time for peak awesomeness. And that's actually, you know, the number one way you see this is roasting a whole chicken, which is a really difficult, it's the simplest dish, but it's very difficult. Because you have the breast meat, which is bigger chunks, they cook faster. You have the thighs and drums, which are smaller and they cook slower. To optimize that and pay attention to it and do it all right, there, you're actually solving for different outcomes. So there's a, there's one example, but oftentimes, food is less delicious with multiple ingredients at the start, because we're not able to pay attention to how each one needs to end up. So there's a way to parse that apart and achieve a better outcome.

• 26:33Lex Fridman?

  I don't know if you've seen Giro Giro's of Sushi. It's a documentary about, yeah. So there's an obsession that that particular, first of all, set of humans, but also the particular cuisine that focused on the basics of the ingredients. What do you think of that kind of trying to achieve mastery through repeating the making of the same? Meal over and over and over for like decades. Like, do you find beauty in that journey towards mastery? Or do you think it should be always an exploration to where you're always trying things? You're always kind of injecting new flavors, new experiences, all that kind of stuff?

• 27:17Speaker 01

  I think you have to decide on a palette. You know, if we're talking about an art, it's equivalent to saying, am I a sculptor or a painter?

• 27:23Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 27:23Speaker 01

  That the sushi lexicon thing, that's a very, very narrow, small canvas that you're painting on. And that is a beautiful road, right? There's, there's a, there's a beauty and a perfection to that. It's like, I mean, there's many things culturally around that, that you could extrapolate for specifically for Japan. But I, I, I encourage people on, on the journey in food to choose like kind of a language that they're working within. And if you want to step out of that occasionally and have one or two dishes. But if you want to get mastery with food, you probably aren't going to be able to get more than, say, 20 ingredients that you use regularly, that you really understand. And so we often see, you know, I see the American pantry.

• 28:06Speaker 01

  It's got tons of sauces and tons of spices and tons of spice blends. And then really people only use just a couple of things. And the idea that you can sort of splash out and do Korean one night and then tacos the next night. You can absolutely, but to get in a regular cadence of specific ingredients, you're probably going to get more mastery with that sooner. And I think as much as you can do to get an understanding of the, you know, the basics around salt and acid and understand your palette, for me, it's lemon and usually sherry vinegar, right? So that's my acid palette. Um, and I, my fat palettes, you know, suet and butter, olive oil. So you can sort of choose your language, what you're painting with. But I wouldn't splash out and say, do I use sesame oil? Yeah, every once in a while, but that's not part of my base palette, right?

• 28:47Lex Fridman?

  Well, can you say again what your fat palette is?

• 28:50Speaker 01

  It'd be butter, suet and olive oil.

• 28:53Lex Fridman?

  And olive oil, so not, uh, white olive oil. Is it your roots in Italy?

• 28:57Speaker 01

  It's the, I like the flavor for finish because of the bitterness that it adds. So I like the bitter and acid contrast on meat and vegetables, which is mostly what I eat. And so I love that, that, that way that the bitterness and astringency complements and allows the flavors to come out.

• 29:14Lex Fridman?

  What do you think about coconut oil? There's, I, I recently discovered that there's a I don't know, there's a sweetness, there's something to it that that I really enjoy.

• 29:25Lex Fridman?

  Maybe because it's new, it's it's good with heat. And I really love it for some reason. As a chef, do you do you ever try it? What do you think about it?

• 29:34Speaker 01

  I like it in coffee, like I like it as a like a treat a little bit. I find the flavor a little bit challenging in foods. I also find that it's difficult on the quality of that ingredient. So I've found often that I buy a high quality coconut oil and there's rancidity in it. And I don't totally know why. I think it's just the cold chain and how that product's packaged. So I've had some issues with product quality in that. But I, for me, it's a little bit too much sweetness in my foods. But then again, I don't cook in like a Southeast Asian palate. I try to not have much sweetness in my foods in general. So I, just because of the palate that I like to cook with. So for me, coconut's got a little bit too much of those high notes and earthiness, which is a nice combination, but it's more like a treat.

• 30:17Lex Fridman?

  Yeah, it is almost like a treat. It has it has a flavor of its own that almost stands on its own. Like I could probably just eat coconut.

• 30:27Lex Fridman?

  That's probably the only oil I could enjoy by itself. It sounds weird to say, but. It feels like fat is often a thing that enriches the flavor of something else. Coconut can almost stand on its own.

• 30:37Speaker 01

  You might also be responding to that it's a complex flavor.

• 30:40Lex Fridman?

  Right.

• 30:40Speaker 01

  So there's also, there's an analogous, you know, if you look at butter, for example. A lot of the butter that we eat in the US is just sweet cream butter. It's not cultured. If you explore like a cultured fermented butter, maybe a grass milk, grass fed and finished butter. You're going to get a ton more complexity. And so you may also just be responding to having fats with more flavor, which is. The journey in the US has been towards refined foods that are very neutral. And then you have to combine more of them to make things taste like things. And so if you're coming from a background of using mostly just generic butter, or let's say canola oil to cook with, those are very neutral oils.

• 31:25Speaker 01

  So you can also take some of your favorite fats and look for versions of them that are more flavorful. I mean, I love olive oil as a treat in a spoon.

• 31:33Lex Fridman?

  Really?

• 31:33Speaker 01

  Like a good California extra virgin olive oil. I'll just like have it, I'll eat a piece of butter as a treat.

• 31:37Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 31:37Speaker 01

  And that's like, or butter with salt on it. Like, good fats can, all of them can be, if they're minimally processed and they're, and it's so delicious, right? But there are things that you have to like, look for a version of them that's got that full palette of flavor.

• 31:52Lex Fridman?

  Well, for me also, the flavors are inextricably tied to the memories I've had with those flavors. So for better or worse, back when I used to eat a lot of ice cream, I, for some reason, had a lot of pleasant experiences with coconut ice cream. So that particular flavor just permeates throughout my life now. Like, I'm stuck with it, for better or worse, as a, as a flavor that brings up pleasant memories. And I have a few such flavors. I have, I have such a relationship with all kinds of meat, too. Like, it's just so many pleasant memories. And that's it. Like, you're almost tasting the memories.

• 32:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:28Lex Fridman?

  And that, there's no way to separate the flavor from the memories, I suppose. And that's a powerful thing. What's your favorite meal to cook?

• 32:37Speaker 01

  Hmm, I, I'll roast a couple chickens and then I'll poach them, like I'll boil them, and let it cool down. It's a complicated one. I'll let them cool down. I'll pull all the meat off, put the bones back into the pot, and then cook that for like, three or four hours. And then add in like shiitake mushrooms and all the chicken meat. And the, and I, I'll throw in a bottle of white wine into the, into the stock as well, a bunch of thyme and garlic. And I love it because it's a- It's the way the house smells. It's very laborious. It's soothing for me to spend time picking apart meat and chopping things up. There's like a lot of manuality around it. So I'd say from a personal, like, I mean, I love grilling a steak and doing those things as well.

• 33:20Speaker 01

  But there's something about making a stock from scratch and the way it smells, the way I feel, the time it takes, the kind of checking in on it that I really, really love. There's many things I love to make that I don't even love to eat. You know, I think you see this a lot in like baking and bakers, people who bake a ton, and they love the process of it, even if they don't eat that many baked goods. So anything for me that's really like enjoyable is typically things like making cinnamon buns. I don't eat very many cinnamon buns, but I love making them because it takes all the sort of like futzing around and taking your time and watching it, the way it smells, the way the house smells. All of that stuff is like, it's like almost like a meditative exercise for me.

• 34:01Lex Fridman?

  Is there a science, is there an art to cooking meat well and the different kinds of meats? Is there something you can convert into words?

• 34:09Lex Fridman?

  In to say ideas, how to bring out the best of it out of what particular meat? Whatever steak we're talking about, whatever beef we're talking about. Is there something that could be said?

• 34:21Speaker 01

  The basic approach to cooking any type of meat beyond the artistry of it is pretty scientific. And it's what type of muscle is it in the animal? And what's the surface area to the volume ratio?

• 34:38Speaker 01

  Okay, so let's look at those two questions. So the first piece is what's the type of muscle in the animal? What's the functionality? You don't necessarily need to know that to evaluate it, but you need to understand, is it a tender muscle that's not used very frequently in the animal? Or is it a big load bearing muscle that gets a lot of action, like the cheek, right? Or the shin or the, those pieces? The muscles like those along the spinal cord that make up ribeyes and New York steaks and things, those aren't very exercised. They're, they're right next to spinal cord. Spinal cord's doing most of the work there. They're kind of like stabilizing muscles around this big functional piece of skeletal structure in the animal.

• 35:19Speaker 01

  Other muscles, like the ones around the diaphragm with the flat iron steaks and skirt steaks and things, those are, those are really functional muscles that are doing a ton and moving. And if they're moving a lot, what happens? Well, functionally, they've got lots of muscle sheaths, because muscles that move frequently have to do a lot of like complex contraction. That's why, you know, there's, in the cheek, for example, there's tons of visible fiber of like collagenous connective tissue. That connective tissue is everything in how the meat cooks. Because connective tissue doesn't respond to high heat with becoming more tender. Muscles do, right? They can get a sear on them, you can cut them

• 36:01Speaker 01

  and eat them. The collagenous tissue will glom up and get really tough. So you either have to liquefy it with really low, slow heat with moisture, right? Or you have to barely cook it. And that's, so that's the major piece. So that's the question of like, why wouldn't you just throw a brisket on the grill? Okay? It's not about the fat, you can cut the fat out. The reason you're not going to throw a brisket on the grill and cook it hot and fast is it's got too much collagenous connective tissue in it. Those are these giant muscles that have all this collagen and these fibers and tendons in them effectively. So you're never going to be able to just cook that up hot and fast. So that's the first piece. It's like, what, where's this muscle in the architecture of the animal? And then what does that mean for what's going on in the muscle? And that's

• 36:45Speaker 01

  actually more important than fat content. We get really kind of, we pay a lot of attention to fat content in muscles. You can make a steak tender if it doesn't have a ton of fat in it. It actually has more to do if there's, if there's collagenous and connective tissue in it.

• 36:59Lex Fridman?

  That's fascinating. I never even thought about that. I just, I thought it kind of universe, I mean, adds to the, the texture of the meat, the chewiness of the meat. But you're saying it's also adds to how heat, how it reacts to heat, how the entirety of the meat reacts to heat. And the fat is not as important to that as the collagen.

• 37:20Speaker 01

  The fat will make the flavor more delicious, right? Like it'll add unctuousness and mouthfeel and things like that. But the, all the connective tissue in meat and in some of the cuts like that we ate a skirt steak last night, you could see a web of that collagen sheath on the outside. On a ribeye, that same collagen sheath is this big. There's only one that goes around the outside. Okay. Cause that's just that muscle. There's one large muscle fiber. So that specific, it's a myelin sheath, right? That's that material needs moisture and low and slow heat to become tender. The other side of that is that when it becomes tender, it liquefies and it adds all this beautiful gelatinous consistency. That's what bone broth is. That's why like a, a slow cooked pork shoulder is so delicious. It's not that it's full of all that fat.

• 38:05Speaker 01

  That fat's also great, but a lot of that mouthfeel comes from that really beautiful dissolved collagen. So when you're looking at like, how do I understand how I'm going to cook a piece of meat? That first fork in the road is how is this going to respond to heat? And what's the appropriate cooking technique? Then the second piece is that surface area to volume ratio. And that's important because the heat is going to impact the meat through the surfaces of the meat that are in contact with the heat. So if I have a steak that's three inches thick, I'm going to cook it extremely differently from a, from a steak that's a half inch thick or three quarters of an inch thick. And that's the major of, and that's the truth.

• 38:48Speaker 01

  If I have a, a piece of pork shoulder that's cut into cubes versus having a whole pork shoulder, that's surface area to volume ratio. That's going to totally change how I cook it. And same things like pot roast and a beef stew would be the same cut of meat, right? But how I cook them is going to change based on the surface area to volume. Cause you've got to let moisture and heat work its way into the center of the meat. And that's going to be determined by the amount of surface of the meat that's in contact with whatever cooking liquid or heat you've got.

• 39:17Lex Fridman?

  Is there different sources of heat to play with? Like a big flame versus a, a small or maybe even like almost no flame, like over coals, all that kind of stuff? Is there some? Science to the source of heat in how it plays with the meat.

• 39:33Speaker 01

  Well, there's indirect heat and direct heat. And that really is mostly about temperature. In more than actual, I mean, smoke is important as well that can permeate. But really, the smoke doesn't go into the center of most cuts that you barbecue. It'll come in like the smoke ring. It's a, it's a, you know, it's maximum like half an inch on the outside. Maybe a little bit deeper on a really long, slow cook. So they, but the, the smoke that's does create a ton of flavor on the surface of the meat. But that's so the indirect allows you to have smoke contacting it and then a very, very low and slow heat. And what that does is indirect heat will be low and slow enough that the center of the meat will get warm at the same time as the exterior of the meat.

• 40:17Speaker 01

  And it'll all cook equally and all get equally tender. If you go very hot and fast, you risk the interior of the meat not getting, right? You kind of create a shell on the, on it. And you slow down the interior of the meat, which you actually want to do with something like a steak, where you want to keep it rare on the inside. So it's really indirect versus direct. Then once you get into direct heat, right? Like in that category, there's wood, charcoal, gas, right? That's about it. And those are meaningfully different. They're meaningfully different. Charcoal and wood, that's more of, there's more poetry in wood. There's a little bit more flavor, not functionally very different. But gas versus charcoal wood is very different. And that's because of the actual scent of the, of the cook, right?

• 41:02Speaker 01

  The scent of the flavor. And then there's a, I think, an evenness of heat distribution that comes off of charcoal that's different from gas, because no matter how awesome your gas grill is, you do have hotter and cooler spots. So gas grills are typically, you can kind of control for that if you just are going really hot and fast. Which is why gas grills are fine if you're just like throwing that steak on, get a hard sear on those burgers, put a crust on it. Gas is fabulous for that. It's perfect. When you're doing things that do better with a low and slow cook, like let's say a whole tenderloin or chicken thigh, that's going to be a little bit less elegant on gas than on charcoal versus wood. So when you have more, more kind of nuance in the low, slow cook over the natural fuels.

• 41:46Lex Fridman?

  Talking about like smoke and flame and charcoal versus gas.

• 41:51Lex Fridman?

  It also adds to the experience and the smell and the whole thing of the cooking like versus just like the taste it creates. There's a certain experience to like when there's a bit of smoke. Maybe I don't know what the chemistry of it is, but I feel like with smoke, the smell is distributed more effectively. I don't know if that's true, but there there's there's a there's a smell and a visual aspect to the experience. That's almost enriched with a bit of smoke and and or like an open flame. Like if you could see the flame, there's a magic to that. And it goes to the experience piece to what we're talking about.

• 42:23Speaker 01

  We were talking exactly about that, like the nuance and the beauty of like that long, slow cook and your house smelling like something. Why do people freak out about barbecue?

• 42:32Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 42:33Speaker 01

  Why? Because you go and it smells bomb. It smells so good.

• 42:37Lex Fridman?

  It's.

• 42:37Speaker 01

  It smells like heaven, right? It smells fatty and delicious and the smells everywhere and everyone's smelling the same smell. So there's like this collective experience. It's incredible. That's I mean, I I think that's why barbecue is so sticky for people.

• 42:51Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 42:52Speaker 01

  It's like so yummy and you get this huge like anticipatory thing about it. It's like because it smells incredible.

• 42:58Lex Fridman?

  What was that incredible grill that we used yesterday? What what is that about?

• 43:01Speaker 01

  That's called a Sea Island Forge. It's a wood fire grill that's inspired by like a South American style of cooking.

• 43:07Lex Fridman?

  So it's like it's big. It has also the the things with the crank. It allows you to control the distance from the flame. It's awesome.

• 43:14Speaker 01

  Really key with the wood fire. So when we evolved from cooking over wood to charcoal, right? When when that became more popular, the reason that we did that is that allowed us to skip the whole part of making our own charcoal. Right? So when you're cooking over wood, all you're doing is making your own charcoal. You don't ever cook over wood with the red fire. Like we don't like throw a steak on when the flames are orange and leaping up because you're just going to get, you know, carbons like char all over your meat. So you're when you're cooking over wood, you first cook down the wood. You create the coal base, the natural coal base. And then you cook over that. So you saw yesterday I built my fire. I let it burn down, added some fresh wood so I could reinforce my coals with new coals coming in. But then I was actually cooking over the embers.

• 43:59Speaker 01

  You shorten that cycle with carbon, with charcoal. It's more, it's more efficient. But what you lose is that whole cycle of, you know, that really beautiful experience of smelling. Now, if you're cooking on a Traeger, you're going to get awesome smoke smell. You know, like you're, there's plenty of ways to do this. It doesn't always have to be wood fire. And I love all the different ways, right? But I, I really like the experience of the campfire. And I love that kind of just like sitting by it, building it, having to take the time. I like building the fire, going inside, preparing all my meats, bringing them out, cooking them, that whole experience start to finish is really just like something that it's my favorite. It's my favorite way to spend, spend time, you know? So I think, and, and why is that? Is the food that different than cooking it in a, in a more conventional grill?

• 44:43Speaker 01

  Probably not, you know, like in a pure experience. But I think the actual experience is super memorable because you are outside, you are slow in your roll, you're enjoying the, this, you know, you're just taking in, you're watching, you're anticipating. I love that whole experience.

• 44:58Lex Fridman?

  Does the origin of the meat itself make a difference? So we're here at Belcampo Farms. And we'll, maybe you could talk about what your vision, your dream is on, in the, in terms of like food, in terms of where food comes from, where meat comes from, but food broadly, and how that affects the entirety of the culinary journey?

• 45:24Speaker 01

  On the question of where does it come from? And does that matter? Say the, the way that meat is raised is massively important for flavor and for how it cooks. I think most cooks who try cooking grass fed versus corn fed, that's the first moment where they realize that, right? Where corn fed meat cooks much more slowly. It's got bigger veins of fat that slow the heat transfer throughout the muscle of the animal compared to grass fed, which is leaner. Heat moves through it more quickly. Those steaks will cook much, much faster. So there's very kind of technical reasons why how meat is raised that we're aware of. And there's other things that I've noticed,

• 46:09Speaker 01

  like that slower growing poultry.

• 46:13Speaker 01

  Has a very, very different musculature and fiber to it than fast growing poultry. That's confinement animals. It's just, it has to do with the way that the muscles are built. They tend to be finer and thinner and more tender and a little bit more susceptible to heat. So they, the character of the meats radically different. It's also much more flavorful when it's grown more naturally. And I think some of the, the reliance in the U S on like sugary sauces and lots of salts and flavors and things like that's actually based on having the broadly available meat out there is pretty low on flavor. And so we're adding in a lot to compensate for that.

• 46:54Speaker 01

  So to your point of like enjoying things very simply and, and with like salt and nothing else, like the more flavorful that product is, I think the more people will find that enjoyable.

• 47:06Lex Fridman?

  Let's paint a vision. I mean, you're a visionary. You have, you have a vision to have basically meat in every store that comes from a, a farm like Belcampo that's, uh, that's basically doing regenerative farming. How do we get there?

• 47:23Speaker 01

  It's about a network of smaller producers working together with shared values. And it's true, there's a limit on regenerative farming in that it requires more human knowledge. So regenerative farming is more difficult to scale in a single operation. It'd be really challenging to have a regenerative farm that was like 200,000 acres because of the amount of manpower needed to pay attention.

• 47:53Lex Fridman?

  Can you first, and I apologize to interrupt, but can you say what is regenerative farming?

• 47:59Speaker 01

  Sure. So they, if you're looking at scaling regenerative farming, it's a traditional system of agriculture. Regenerative farming is how we used to farm.

• 48:12Speaker 01

  We used to farm with an eye towards the long term. You might be on the Friedman farm thinking about your heirs five generations from now, farming that same land. Are you going to leave that land nutritionally empty?

• 48:27Lex Fridman?

  No.

• 48:28Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 48:29Lex Fridman?

  It's a long-term thinking.

• 48:30Speaker 01

  Also, in traditional ag, you don't have inputs that are very convenient. You can put some chicken manure on, but you can't spray or dump something that massively increases the growing potential of the land. That was not available until the past 60 years. So regenerative agriculture is an approach to farming where you're increasing soil fertility through your farming. You increase soil fertility by feeding the soil. You feed the soil through carbon. That's why regenerative farming is better for the environment.

• 49:12Speaker 01

  It sequesters carbon and puts carbon into the soil. Now, it's interesting. Plants need carbon and put it into the soil when they're going through growth. So if you have a beautiful field of grass that's just waving in the wind, that's not sequestering as much carbon as plants that have been damaged and are regrowing. Plants that have been damaged and are regrowing are repairing, and they're doing that by drawing down carbon as one of the nutrients that feeds them. To damage the plants effectively, that's what we're doing with regenerative grazing. So the cows or lambs, whatever, out there, they're eating and taking the grass down,

• 49:57Speaker 01

  and that then causes a regrowth cycle that sequesters carbon.

• 50:00Lex Fridman?

  Wow.

• 50:01Speaker 01

  There's a limit to it. There's an edge, because if those plants are so damaged that they can't regrow, then it turns into a dirt patch, and that doesn't sequester any carbon. So it's a balance.

• 50:10Lex Fridman?

  How do you find that balance? That has to do with the frequency and the scale of the grazing, essentially?

• 50:17Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 50:19Lex Fridman?

  And so you have to find the right balance and that that connects to the both the the grass. I mean, is is the ultimately the focus here is in the life cycle of whatever is grazing, whether it's cows or lambs or so on?

• 50:32Speaker 01

  That's why the scalability question. So all that stuff that I just talked about, like, think about all the actions that that requires. Somebody's out there looking and paying attention and understanding how far the grass is, remembering what happened in that field last year. There's a huge human intelligence need and human kind of availability of attention. Now, industrial farming has done a great job at de-skilling agriculture.

• 51:02Speaker 01

  Industrial farming has taken agriculture from being art, science, to being entry-level employment.

• 51:10Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 51:11Speaker 01

  So that's the limiting factor on regen. And that's why I think-

• 51:14Lex Fridman?

  The human intelligent piece.

• 51:15Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 51:16Lex Fridman?

  I gotta ask, I don't know if you think about this kind of stuff. I mentioned to you offline that I spent a bit of time with some robots and Boston Dynamics. Do you think there's a way to use artificial intelligence to help? So data collection, so automating some of the, some of the things that makes humans special, make some of that decision, some of that memory that's then utilized, converted into knowledge to make decisions about the crops and so on. Is there a way AI can help, do you think?

• 51:42Speaker 01

  Totally. I mean, that's, that's, that would be incredible.

• 51:45Lex Fridman?

  That's one of the ingredients that could help with the regenerative farming?

• 51:48Speaker 01

  There's a number of discrete decision points that could completely be automated as well, or to supplement and work with somebody, like a farmer and managing it, about the, the, the performance on land. And a bit of that's being done right now with some aerial mapping and, but that type of AI would be huge in this. I mean, there's estimates that if the damage and underutilized range land in the world was converted to regenerative agriculture, it's somewhere between like 20 and 40% of the world's carbon could be sequestered. So there's a huge potential. The problem is cultural.

• 52:26Speaker 01

  We've like lost the generational thread of knowledge about how to do this. It's kind of been two generations that haven't farmed this way. Also, the science around it is limited by the scale and longevity. So the data collection around regenerative farming is also limited by the fact it's kind of piecemeal. There's small operations that are doing it. They're learning and developing as they go, and they haven't been documenting it and doing it for too long.

• 52:53Lex Fridman?

  Is the ethical treatment of animals a part of regenerative farming? So in the way you do things at Balcampo, that's a huge part. Is that necessarily part of the life cycle? So like the things that you're trying to measure is like, uh, like the way, like not damaging the land too much. Make sure that the sort of the land is constantly healthy and is producing. And then the grazing process and also the carbon piece, the fact that it's like carbon neutral or something like that. I mean, are all of those pieces of the regenerative farming? Or is this an extra part to your vision that you're thinking about?

• 53:31Speaker 01

  It's all implicit and regenerative.

• 53:33Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 53:33Speaker 01

  I call it out separately because we are certified humane, right? Which is another layer of welfare that has to do with density and a couple of other things. But regenerative, I mean, think about it, if you're a cow and you're in a regenerative operation where the whole life cycle of the pasture means that you only eat the top six inches of the grass. And then when there's whatever, a couple of inches left, then that field is left dormant. That's a better experience, right? So just think about it kind of functionally that way.

• 53:59Lex Fridman?

  Well, grazing period is a better experience, right?

• 54:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 54:02Lex Fridman?

  And that's, that's not what's done in, I mean, that's the grass fed piece, right?

• 54:06Speaker 01

  That's the other piece with, you know, certified organics, amazing. There's, you know, there's plenty of certifications that, you know, grass fed and finished is also great, but there are workarounds for those. You can have certified organic feedlots. You can have grass fed and finished, which is in an animal fed a grass seed pellet. Those aren't things that we do here, right? And regenerative captures that. Because if you're, it's like anything, you're isolating these very specific certifications. It doesn't have a holistic approach. Regenerative, though, unfortunately, isn't certified yet. We've gotten USDA approval, to use that word, based on our carbon sequestration data. But it's not a regulated term. So that's kind of the mix right now, is to figure out how to document it.

• 54:51Speaker 01

  And it's not totally clear what it means, like for pigs and chickens, which are omnivores. It's very clear for ruminants, which are animals that have a ruminant that eat grass. For omnivores, which is like what we are, they eat primarily grain in farming operations. And that's a little bit more complex. So it's kind of a moving landscape. But regenerative as a word is the better definition of the whole lifecycle approach of letting animals and nature work together.

• 55:17Lex Fridman?

  Is it true that it's possible to have a farm that doesn't produce, sort of, is carbon neutral?

• 55:25Speaker 01

  We have been third-party verified to be carbon impact negative. So Belcampo's 25,000 acres and the animals here, they, all of the carbon, including from our shipping on our mail order, is all offset by the amount of grazing that's happening. Also, that encompasses our partner farms. We buy a number of live animals in from other partner farms. That's, their impact's also incorporated in that.

• 55:50Lex Fridman?

  I mean, first of all, that's incredible. And second of all, is that possible to scale?

• 55:54Speaker 01

  I don't see why it isn't. I mean, it's, it's complex to scale. But, I mean, we're putting people on the moon and you have a robotic dog. I mean.

• 56:05Lex Fridman?

  But those, that's more, that's less about scale, that's more about innovation. So like, in many ways, what Belcampo has done is innovative at a small scale. The question is whether that innovation can be scaled.

• 56:16Speaker 01

  That's where I feel like we and the industry need more help. You know, the AI piece, the intelligence, the, the, the thinking about ways to do things differently is where we need more support. And I think it's been a, you know, a kind of a.

• 56:33Speaker 01

  Swing in the past couple of years where it's like meat's a mess. It's terrible. So let's ditch meat and are opt for these hyper processed, you know, plant based solutions. And I'm saying there's a way to make meat this a part of the solution. And it's going to mean eating less of it. It's going to mean paying more for it. It's going to mean that the farming systems are more complicated. It's not the easiest path, but I think in the long term, it's the better path. And it's also better for human health.

• 57:05Lex Fridman?

  Can you comment on the certified humane piece? So how do you run a farm? Like, what does it mean to raise an animal from the beginning of its life to the end of its life in a way that's ethical, that's humane?

• 57:18Speaker 01

  I think the first piece you need to just be comfortable with is that making an animal into meat, you know, is is something you're comfortable with because I think that's the biggest question, right? And so certified humane actually goes all the way through the death of the animal, how it's killed and handled at processing. So I put that out there just to say, well, that's, you know, this is all about producing an animal to die for meat. And that's, that's not necessarily, that's something people struggle with, with the word humane, and I understand that, like, I have space and empathy for that. It's a, it's a complicated decision and one you have to be comfortable with at the outset to say, this is an animal that's going to die to feed me.

• 57:55Lex Fridman?

  Yeah, so we should pause on that because I actually just two days ago read a paper that argued that, you know, the killing of an animal period cannot be humane. So it's impossible. And so, and that's an argument, just like you're saying, we could make. But if we now on the table kind of take as a starting point, the idea that it's possible to kill an animal for food in an ethical way, if we take that as a starting point. So we won't argue about that. It is worth arguing about it elsewhere, and it probably will. I will probably talk to a few vegan folks and we'll talk about the vegan diet. I'm fascinated by it as well. So I'm torn on the whole thing.

• 58:37Lex Fridman?

  But if we just take that as a starting point, what then is an ethical humane way to treat an animal?

• 58:45Speaker 01

  I look at ethical humane animal treatment as the major phases of life. So conception, birth and mothering.

• 58:56Speaker 01

  Diet, those are kind of the major touchpoints of life. So what we're looking at is evolutionary approach, which means is the animal eating what it evolved to eat primarily? Uh, is the animal primarily outdoors? Which is how all animals evolved. Um, given when the climate's appropriate for it. There are certain, you know, times when you can't have animals fully outdoors. Like here on our ranch, we um, have had issues with like, you know, cold weather and things. But um, so if you have, if you have, you know, appropriate weather conditions, does the animal outdoors? Um, is the animal able to nurture and engage with its young? Um, those are the kind of key touchpoints, but it's really the, the birth of it. Let me start this one from the scratch.

• 59:41Lex Fridman?

  Sure.

• 59:43Speaker 01

  Okay, so when I'm looking at, or when I, when I consider what's humane, setting aside the death part, I look at the evolutionary diet, access to the outdoors, and ideally spending the majority of its life outdoors. Low density, so animals spread out. And um, engagement with young, social interactions. And that's all kind of.

• 1:00:07Lex Fridman?

  Social interaction is a cool one. I mean, I, I also read an article that like, they're, that like cows, for example, have social, like they have friends.

• 1:00:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:00:17Lex Fridman?

  That's fascinating. I mean, that, that piece with the young, social interaction with the young, social interaction with each other, that uh, at a basic level, I'm sure that interaction is not as rich as humans. But there, that, that piece seems to be part of the humane picture. And you said also, just a quick comment to uh, evolutionary diet, meaning the diet that they were evolved to have.

• 1:00:39Speaker 01

  And that's pretty simple. You can look at the physiology of the animal and figure that out. So ruminant species are lamb, goats and beef. And they have five stomachs. They're, they evolved eating really low calorie, high fiber foods. That's why they've got all the stomachs. They need a lot of processing. You or I were to eat grass, we'd die in a week, right? We, we, our physiology can't handle it. Cows were built and evolved to eat this very low calorie, very high fiber, very low density food. And they walk around slowly, they're moving constantly and they're eating it. When we put them on a corn-fed diet, that's the opposite of their evolutionary diet and their systems really struggle with it. Now, pigs and chickens are different. Pigs and chickens are omnivores.

• 1:01:24Speaker 01

  And pigs will happily eat chickens, for example.

• 1:01:29Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:30Speaker 01

  Our pigs on the farm will hunt and kill rattlesnakes.

• 1:01:32Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:33Speaker 01

  And eat them. Um, you know, i- i- it's their, they, they have.

• 1:01:37Lex Fridman?

  And they enjoy the, they enjoy all of it.

• 1:01:39Speaker 01

  They're, they're, they're omnivores. So that you often see, and I have seen people try to raise like a grass-fed chicken and that doesn't exist. I mean, they need a higher, omnivores eat everything. They're what's called monogastric. They got one stomach. And that one stomach needs higher density nutrients. So in the case of um, chicken, if you're to do, you know, look back in American history in, in the 1950s, it took, you know, commercial chickens took like 54 weeks to come to full weight. Now it's two and a half weeks in a, in confinement farming on our, in our systems. It's like eight, 10 weeks typically. So it's a very, you have to give them some amount of nutrient density. Um, but there's a, the, the idea that no grain, because you, that's a misinformation.

• 1:02:22Speaker 01

  For any type of commercial operation, free range, regenerative, pastured, everything, you're going to have to have a grain feed to get any type of, it's actually, I think for the case of chickens, unless you're in a place with like tons of natural seeds and grubs and worms and stuff to eat, really challenging for the chicken. So you, you gotta give them some high-density, high-calorie food, different from the, that's the evolutionary diet is a really key thing. That's the fundamental thing for health. And it's also interesting because that, the evolutionary diet ties to human health. I've looked at the nutritional analysis on, on all of our products and it's, the evolutionary diet is, for the case of beef and lamb, gets their omega-3 to 6 ratios the same as wild game.

• 1:03:06Speaker 01

  So it's not like beef is really radically different from elk. A ruminant species, right? If you feed beef an evolutionary diet, their nutritional profile is the same as wild meat. It's a wild ruminant.

• 1:03:17Lex Fridman?

  I got a chance to witness Neuralink. I don't know if you're familiar with that company, the brain, brain computer interfaces. And they have, I got a chance to see in person just a bunch of pigs who had Neuralink chips implanted and taken out. Those pigs are so happy with life. I don't know, I've never seen a happier animal.

• 1:03:37Lex Fridman?

  I mean, because they get to eat, because you were mentioning diets and stuff. They basically, pigs seem to love a lot of stuff. They're easily, they're easily made to be happy. I don't know if you can comment on your thoughts of,

• 1:03:53Lex Fridman?

  of, you know, exploring the capacity of the pig mind through some of this testing with Neuralink. Whether that's exciting to you, whether maybe on the humane side it's a little bit concerning. If there's something to be said, sort of like,

• 1:04:11Lex Fridman?

  yeah, I don't know if it's even the ethical side, but just because of your connection to meat and to nature and understanding these living beings.

• 1:04:20Speaker 01

  Well, pigs are incredibly intelligent. So I'm not surprised that they're a subject matter for Neuralink. They're smarter than dogs and they're empathetic and emotional. And they're, we'll go look at our pigs afterwards and see, but they're, they're, they're kind of like joyful and exuberant when they're in good health. And so that, that makes sense. I, I'm interested and open, I feel that the kind of bleeding edge agriculture movement that I'm, you know, on the edge of in some ways, we're a larger operator. But we as a movement have to. We have to get into the game. We have to move forward in a way that allows us to scale if we want to be viable. So I think there has to be openness to how that can

• 1:05:05Speaker 01

  happen.

• 1:05:06Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:06Speaker 01

  And I also think there needs to be more thoughtful and noisy data about how regenerative ranching can sequester carbon. I mean, thousands of American ranches are selling carbon credits right now. The data is that valid. And they're not selling carbon credits from like, grassland that just got a fence around it. They're selling carbon credits for verified data from animals assisting in carbon sequestration. Right? So there's got to be a way to, to get the tech community involved in ways to help regenerative agriculture scale.

• 1:05:38Lex Fridman?

  In different creative ways. And actually, that'd be interesting if like Neuralink somehow has, especially because Elon Musk is involved and Kimball Musk is like, has his whole effort and appreciation of regenerative agriculture, that I wonder if Neuralink has a role to play? Like, exploring the, the neurobiology of the animal, if that somehow will create innovations that lead to improved scaling of regenerative agriculture. That'd be interesting. But you're saying you should be open to all those possibilities?

• 1:06:10Speaker 01

  I don't think, I don't know the landscape to know what.

• 1:06:13Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:13Speaker 01

  But my sense is that it's very hard. It's very hard. And our farming operation to scale, it's been incredibly complex and challenging. We now work with partner farms. I see their operations. They're incredibly complex. You know, it just seems like there's got to be a way to make some of these things simpler and easier to share information.

• 1:06:32Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:32Speaker 01

  Um, I don't know what that answer, answer is.

• 1:06:35Lex Fridman?

  You know what would be cool is if we can understand deeper ways to measure the happiness of an animal. Cause then we can optimize, like Certified Humane could be literally an optimization problem. Just make sure, as opposed to kind of using our, projecting our own human values, actually measuring what the, what the animal is happy doing. That could be, so understanding the pig brain might help us understand pig happiness and like reframe what it means for a happy animal. And then maybe it's a lot easier to make a happy animal. To make the animal happy than we think. And it might have to do with a variety of delicious food in the case of the. Uh, is there something you could say about grass fed meat?

• 1:07:16Lex Fridman?

  Is it all, just out of my own sort of curiosity, whenever people say sort of grass fed meat is better for you. Are all grass fed meat made the same? Is there different like, it's like the word organic. Uh, is there a lot of variety within that? Like the way Belcampo does or the others do it? Just more color, if you could add to this whole word and what it means.

• 1:07:38Speaker 01

  Grass fed beef has been on grass its entire life. And you want to look for the words a hundred percent grass fed and or grass fed and finished. Now, the challenge with feeding beef grass its whole life is that it gains weight more slowly.

• 1:07:58Speaker 01

  Although beef didn't evolve eating corn and things, um, it can eat them. And in eating them, it gains weight more rapidly and has like a version of like an inflammatory response. If you actually look inside the rumen of the animal inside the stomach, it's like black and shiny inside compared to grass fed animals like green smells like compost. So the animals themselves, their whole physiology is is damaged by that food. But they also gain weight really quickly and they put on a lot of fat. It's like if you or me were to eat a bunch of processed food compared to eating a bunch of greens. It's the same impact, you're gonna blow up. So the problem for grass fed is getting the animals to gain weight.

• 1:08:40Speaker 01

  They're getting a ton of exercise, they're eating really clean, right? And they're super chill. So that's different from the animals that are kept still, eating really nutrient dense foods and under a ton of stress, which is a confinement animal. So are all grass fed meats created the same? The diet, yeah, nutritional profile broadly. But the length of time that the animal lives is extremely important for the flavor of the meat.

• 1:09:11Speaker 01

  We're taking our beef to 24 to 26 months. Conventional is around 18 months. So I'm always looking, you know, if you're evaluating grass fed animals, you want to get animals that are typically allowed to live for longer because their flavor is going to be better. There's going to be a bit more fat and their omega ratios also very, very differently. And I've seen omega ratios, you know, in our farm, everywhere from one to three to one to one. Ideal is one to one game is typically one to one or one to two omega three to sixes. But in operations where you don't have year round grass, it's more complicated. You know, you're feeding hay and you don't get that three to six ratio. Omega threes come from green grass.

• 1:09:53Speaker 01

  They, they're the fat in greens and so they're scarce and costly. Right? So you can have grass fed and finished animals that don't have that perfect ratio because maybe they're in a climate or for whatever reasons. We've had to do it too during the droughts to hay finishing. It's not optimal, changes the ratio a bit. So there's a little bit of variance within it. I'd say though, the, the variance within grass fed is still small compared to the variance between conventional and grass fed. Right? So there's definitely things to look for within it, but the, the real difference is between those two. Also thing to notice is that it's not a verified word.

• 1:10:32Speaker 01

  Okay. So grass fed means animals that have been on grass at some point in their life. The way the cattle industry is in the U.S., there's segmentation. So there's cow calf operations. There's, then those calves get sold to stocker operations, which raise animals in their teens, basically, and then those get sold to feedlots. And so those three phases, that, that first phase of the cow calf is always on grass. It's mother cows and mom cows are amazing. They can thrive on anything and still put all their nutrients into their baby and their babies will be healthy. So you're never putting mother cows on really premium pasture. So it's usually just kind of like, okay pasture, dirty lot.

• 1:11:15Speaker 01

  If you ever see kind of like, you know, scrubly lots with lots of, you know, cows and calves on, that's a cow calf operation. So there's also worm, a loophole, unfortunately, where people use the term grass fed. And they're actually referring to animals that at some point in their life had grass, but that might be pretty far in the rearview mirror.

• 1:11:31Lex Fridman?

  So you need to see, look at that, uh, grass fed and finished or grass fed a hundred percent.

• 1:11:36Speaker 01

  That ratio of omega threes to sixes, it changes in like a week on grain.

• 1:11:40Lex Fridman?

  Wow.

• 1:11:40Speaker 01

  So it's radically different. Unfortunately, it's the same thing for you and me. You could eat clean for a month. You eat, you know, junk for three days, you're garbage, right? It's not like you can just like coast on that, right? We know what that's like. Same thing for animals, our physiology changes. Food's the number one way we interact with our environment.

• 1:11:54Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:54Speaker 01

  And our body changes really rapidly and dramatically.

• 1:11:57Lex Fridman?

  So, so we know Val Campo and just the way sort of this regenerative farming approach of Val Campo. And the sort of high humane is good for the land, is good for the animal. Can you comment on ways it's good for the human that eats the meat? Is, is this meat better for you?

• 1:12:16Speaker 01

  Yes. It's, and this is where, you know, the kind of focus on the joy and animals doing yoga and all this sort of like cynical stuff about, about this type of agriculture. So just like, set that aside, you know? It really is better for your health. It's got a better fat ratio. It's less inflammatory. It's got higher protein. It's just better product. I mean, in the, the case of beef, it's lower in fat. And that fat is a better quality and it's higher, uh, in poultry and pork is also higher in protein. So all the nutritionals are better. It's got a higher density of vitamins, got a higher density of minerals. And none of this stuff is radically different than, you know, it's not like it's the product is, is black and white.

• 1:12:58Speaker 01

  But there, every metric meaningfully is better in the right direction. Across the board. So why wouldn't you?

• 1:13:06Lex Fridman?

  I hesitate to take anecdotal evidence as like final scientific conclusions, but it does seem, I've eaten quite a bit of Val Campo meat, for example, and it's just, my body seems to respond. Like is less bothered by it. Meaning like less inflamed, I just feel better. Cause I mostly eat a meat diet. And it does seem to be a little bit of a difference, what kind of meat I eat. Where it comes from. I don't know if that's my own psychology also. I mean, there is an aspect to like, when you know that the meat came from a good place and all the ways we've, we've defined good. You feel better about it. And that has an effect, like decreased stress.

• 1:13:49Lex Fridman?

  So I'm a huge believer in that, like outside of just nutrition. How you feel about the whole experience is a huge impact, but. It does feel like the meat itself is actually just leading to less inflammation for me, or like less, like the blow, blow, bloated feeling and all those negative effects that could come with meat. Versus like certain other ground beefs that I eat, like store bought. Chicken breast or steak, all those kinds of things. My, my body's a little bit more, uh, works a little bit harder to process that food, it feels like. I don't know if there's science to that, but sort of anecdotally, that seems to be the case.

• 1:14:25Speaker 01

  Omega sixes are a big part of that, in the case of the beef. You eat a lot of beef.

• 1:14:28Lex Fridman?

  Yes.

• 1:14:28Speaker 01

  You love beef.

• 1:14:29Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:29Speaker 01

  And so in a conventional beef product, it's a one to thirty ratio of omega threes to sixes. And it can sometimes one to twenty, one to thirty, but that's the wrong direction. In our beef, it's, you know, as low as one to one. So that and the omega sixes are what's part of inflammation. Right? Now, you know, the, the magic in animals is that they're incredibly efficient processors. Right? And in the same way that, you know, the, the, the body can protect us from, you know, can process and take out tons of things that are toxic out of the environment. I mean, animals' bodies can do that too. So the beauty of meat is that it can be pretty clean. You know, things like Roundup and stuff don't end up in the meat.

• 1:15:12Speaker 01

  When we have antibiotics in our meat, we're not worried about getting like tetracycline from the chicken breast. What we're worried about is the workers getting touch recycling, the chicken growing faster than it should, the meat being chewier and not as high quality. So they, but the actual antibiotics don't, the animals are great at filtering that, right? They get that out. So you have to think about meat not as like contamination of like, oh, there's going to be some of that garbage they used in the farming in my meat. But it's the more subtle things. It's the fat ratio, it's the protein density. And there's also just, I think, in my experience, there's just more complex flavor and things that taste more complex. This is, you know, science backs

• 1:15:53Speaker 01

  this up. They're, they fill you up faster. So if you're looking to limit, you know, to, to eat for fullness and but not eat as many calories, more complex foods are the way to do that. And that hit, you know, you hit your satiety, help you hit that satiety. So things like, I mean, all the key, you know, amino acids that help you feel full, mostly from meat, right? So those are, that's part of it, like it, but all meats have those. Then there's other kind of micronutrients and things around that complex flavor that help you feel full faster.

• 1:16:24Lex Fridman?

  Forgive me for this question, but it is kind of an interesting one that people are curious about. What does it feel like to be a, or what does it take to be a woman CEO of a meat company? I mean, you're no longer CEO of Belcampo, but you did, you ran, you co-founded Belcampo, you ran it for many, many years. What, is there something that you could say in terms of challenges associated with that? And how did you personally overcome it?

• 1:16:54Speaker 01

  So to be a female running a meat livestock operation, it felt very alone, a lot, you know, for a long time. I felt very, like, everybody waiting for me to fail or watching and assuming that I was like just good at marketing or whatever else. And, and so it's, it's taken me a while to not internalize that.

• 1:17:27Speaker 01

  I think the only reason I've am here is we have our own supply chain in Slaughterhouse. And I think had I'd really been playing in the broader meat industry, it would have been a shorter journey, you know, it would have been very hard to make it even get to this phase.

• 1:17:44Speaker 01

  But I do, you know, I think

• 1:17:51Speaker 01

  the mission is my life's work. The mission of cleaner ingredients that taste so amazing, you don't need to do too much to them. You know, I like creating food that's in support of good health.

• 1:18:06Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:07Speaker 01

  And then secondary to that, it's the environment, but I like I want healthy food to be a joy to eat. Right? And

• 1:18:15Speaker 01

  that that's, you know, creating innovation in the space for this company has been about building a brand that's people understand and is transparent and that people believe in in an industry that's broadly perceived of as pretty corrupt. So those are the things I feel enormously proud of.

• 1:18:33Lex Fridman?

  So you focused on the mission and the the pushback, all the mess the of the industry, you try not to internalize it, try not to let it affect you and focus on the mission.

• 1:18:43Speaker 01

  You know, and it's in the joy of it and the part where it's gotten fun for me has been returning to what I love about it. And I've only had the privilege of doing that pretty recently. So I think for me personally, you know, starting I I host us these events on the farm called Meat Camps, where I cook and teach people to cook and in, you know, taste and talk about flavor and all the like sensual aspects of it that I that are my fire. Like, thank goodness I did that stuff because otherwise it was just such a beating. You know, so there were parts of it where I got to feed my fire. And then now in the, you know, the past year since resigning, I've been, I do all the recipe development. I shoot all the content. I, you know, taste product, I'm developing all of our new products.

• 1:19:26Speaker 01

  I launched our meatballs, I'm just about to launch our chicken meatballs, doing a high protein bone broth. Like those are, that's what, why I did this was to be able to build this great product that I could build on. So I'm kind of at that place now, but it's taken a lot longer. And I think, you know, looking at the landscape of what to do in food, this is definitely

• 1:19:48Speaker 01

  we tackled the most complicated problem.

• 1:19:52Speaker 01

  That I can imagine, you know, I did it like in the most old fashioned way.

• 1:19:56Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:57Speaker 01

  Right? So it's been super complex. And then I also look at it and I'm like, yeah, and it's been messy and it's gonna continue to be hard. But I'm proud of having tackled the hard problems.

• 1:20:06Lex Fridman?

  So the hard problem here is not in the space of technologies. It's in the space of bringing something that we've done for a long, long time in our human history. And scaling it in the face of all the other economic pressures.

• 1:20:24Lex Fridman?

  Like doing so successfully, also communicating to the rest of the world that this is a powerful solution. So inspiring the rest of the world that regenerative farming, like running a company in this kind of way that's humane for animals. Good for the land, good for people, even if it costs, like if there's an increased cost to the meat. Even if that, if you have a broader vision, that means eating less meat overall. But that is, that is like inspiring the world that this is a future we want. And just taking that on and getting that done. I got a chance to eat a little bit of cheese, which, which is a good opportunity to talk about your experience in Italy. He spent some time, or it was south of Europe. I'm not sure if it was Italy.

• 1:21:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, I lived in Italy, but.

• 1:21:11Lex Fridman?

  And there was cheese involved, right? Like what, what did you take away from that experience, both as a chef and as a human being?

• 1:21:21Speaker 01

  I moved to Europe right after my early twenties and I worked as a cheesemaker. And I lived in really small rural farms in the countryside. And I got up early and milked animals, made cheese. And I got to live in a traditional agricultural society and learn how they ate.

• 1:21:48Speaker 01

  So it shaped me as a cook because it was.

• 1:21:54Speaker 01

  A chance to have incredible ingredients, learn how to cook very simple food. I had been immersed and thought that I wanted to be like a chef-y chef, right? Because I love food and I love cooking and I was just drawn to that world. But I don't like the experience of that sort of like fancy food experience is not my, not what is exciting for me about it. So I loved working in that environment because I got to eat lunches and dinners and everything with the farm that I lived on and just very traditional, simple way to eat. The other piece of it is, you know, I went to high school in the 90s, child of like the low fat generation, right?

• 1:22:37Speaker 01

  And it was just really liberating and amazing to eat tons of super fatty foods and olive oil all over the place and bleak slabs of bread and salami. And being this like vibrant health, like be leaner, you know, happy, no skin stuff, you know, stop getting split ends, like I stopped having flaky nails, like just stuff that had bothered me my whole life, including like just moodiness and that all just changed. And granted, I was also like living on a farm in Italy and getting up with the sunlight and like there were lots of great aspects of my life as well that happened in that time. But I was just immersed in this diet that I realized like, man, this is so simple.

• 1:23:20Speaker 01

  And I also loved that I had, like, you know, you'd have dinner and it was just like some ricotta cheese with some olive oil, some bread and like a bowl of fava beans. It's like, that's dinner. And it kind of broke down my assumptions too about like dinner always has to be this, you know, a protein and a vegetable and, you know, being more fluid and more seasonal was exciting for me. So I just learned kind of a lot about paying attention to food, simple preparation, and the vibrancy of health that I personally experienced kind of made me double down on that.

• 1:23:57Lex Fridman?

  Our mutual friend Andrew Huberman mentioned something offline to me about something involving the the mob.

• 1:24:05Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:24:06Lex Fridman?

  Is there is there something you could share or is this or or are people going to hurt if you share this?

• 1:24:11Speaker 01

  It's it's far enough in the rearview mirror. I mean, I was hired by this group in Sicily on and this is, you know, I was all of like 21 years old and to get a permit to work there, you have to show that you have a competency that nobody else in Italy has. And that competency for Anya Fernal at the time was cheese expert. So it's like stupid American girl being like going to the consulate. So I already knew that it was like there was something wobbly about this organization. But I went to work for them and my boss from that time did end up in federal prison for corruption. Many years later, embezzlement primarily.

• 1:24:53Speaker 01

  But so I was definitely in an environment that was answering to multiple masters. And

• 1:25:00Lex Fridman?

  That's a nice way to put it.

• 1:25:01Speaker 01

  It was it was I couldn't have asked for a better way to to kind of get with life and understand how things happen in the world, though. You know, of

• 1:25:12Speaker 01

  learning as somebody who tends to be super direct and not very subtle, it was amazing to be in this world where like everybody communicates in multiple levels like my we're going to lunch with my boss with somebody we're going to do a business deal with and by the they ordered a glass of wine and with that order communicated like disappointment.

• 1:25:34Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:34Speaker 01

  Because that the father, the person who had made that wine had offended that other guys.

• 1:25:39Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:39Speaker 01

  I like that level of stuff where like nothing happened directly. I'm like, what are we talking about afterwards? I'm like, what happened at lunch? It's like, oh, I just, you know, I told him this by ordering that whatever, you know, that kind of thing. So understanding that there's different ways of communicating. But it was also, you know, it was. Interesting to see, and I think I, you know, it's kind of the struggle that I've lived again and again in my life. Fundamentally, what we were doing in that operation was there's a very traditional cheese called the Ragusa cheese in southeastern Sicily, where I lived, Ragusa, and it was about scaling that operation. So it was European Union money that my boss was also unfortunately using for other things. But fundamentally, it was to take that, this type of very small scale cheese, get them exported, help them scale, and we did it.

• 1:26:23Speaker 01

  And it was really challenging and I learned a lot about the safety issues and collaboration issues and creating groups of farmers for scale. So I've kind of been doing the same thing like again and again. But Sicily, it, you know, it was also just the first place where I would regularly forage for food.

• 1:26:44Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 1:26:44Speaker 01

  You know, like there, I'd go to friends' houses and we'd like go out and pick nettles or go out and pick wild asparagus. So every season, there was stuff that you would be gathering and that was just part of how you lived. And it was part of your health. So that was, I just learned a ton in that time about like simple eating and, and, and, and really that healthy food, the simpler it is, the better, right? Like this sort of sense that healthy food isn't in a tiny package, granola bar, lots of labels, lots of powders. It's like the more simple essential, closer to the land can actually lead to optimal health.

• 1:27:19Lex Fridman?

  You've learned to appreciate the simplicity of food. The, the beauty within the simplicity.

• 1:27:25Speaker 01

  I think it's because it was the first time that I had amazing food quality. Okay, because in the, where I grew up, there wasn't that food quality. Like I had some stuff in my garden and things that were great. But that's the kind of place where when artichokes in season, all of a sudden there's guys selling artichokes on their bicycles in the street and they're just fresh picked. And you'd get that one thing or the torpedo onions or the like. So there's a seasonality and celebration of things in their peak moment. And you would just have that one thing. And that was the first time I'd ever eaten in that way.

• 1:27:56Lex Fridman?

  You were a judge several times on Iron Chef. How do you judge a good meal?

• 1:28:03Lex Fridman?

  Like what, your own, other people's? Like, what rating system is good?

• 1:28:09Speaker 01

  I mean, I go on experience and think about how many of your like most memorable fantastic meals are like three star Michelin meals. It's more about the experience, right? It's more about that slow down, who are you with? And some of our best meals are like the most simple things. So Iron Chef, you know, those are, those were fun experiences. It's a lot of sous vide though, it's a lot of sauces, it's a lot of powders. I mean, it's kind of like magic food. So that's not, I mean, it's incredible to watch it as science, but I don't know if those are my most memorable meals.

• 1:28:41Lex Fridman?

  So the experience is how you judge a good meal. For you personally, if you were a judge of the entirety of the human experience in terms of the culinary journey, that would be like the people you're eating with, the environment, like how you feel, the journey, the building up to that meal, like the whole thing. You can't separate it out.

• 1:29:00Speaker 01

  When I was learning as an apprentice cheesemaker in Greece, the, one of the best meals of my life is like a bowl of cold sheep milk yogurt with like a crust of cold fat on top. So you'd like the way that these fatty, you know, sheep milk can have double the percentage of fat than cow milk. So like there's a yogurt and then there's this crust of fat and then they pour the fresh honey over the top. And you just eat like this bowl of, probably top five meals of my life. Right? I mean, and it just, that's the simplicity, it's just the best thing. And it was the fact that it's in terracotta and I'd had this amazing day and, you know, all of these things come together, but I still remember that feeling. And I think most of us have those like really great sensual memories of food and they're not about necessarily

• 1:29:45Speaker 01

  that one fancy, over the top restaurant or something. It's really about the whole context of enjoyment.

• 1:29:52Lex Fridman?

  Maybe you can help me with something. So we, I think offline said that we're both introverts a bit, but I certainly.

• 1:30:01Lex Fridman?

  Find joy in repetition. So I kind of hide away as an introvert and eat the same thing over and over and over again. But at the same time, I had this conversation with Tyler Cohen, who is an economist, but he's also a food critic. He writes these incredible posts about different foods. And we had this conversation about what his last meal would be. If he had to choose, like, what is the best meal he's ever eaten that he would want to eat? And he had a good answer about it. It had to do with experience, I think. For him, it was a particular Mexican restaurant. And it had in Mexico because of the ingredients, because of the experience, because of the work it took to get there and all those kinds of things. But it also made me realize, like, when I was going home after that conversation,

• 1:30:45Lex Fridman?

  that I couldn't answer that question myself. Like, what is the best meal I've ever eaten? Because I really haven't experienced much. And so it almost was like a challenge to myself. Like, I feel like I should journey out a little bit more in this life and try stuff. And to try to see, like, what is the best meal for me in the world? You know, like, both the experience and the taste, right? So I was kind of wondering, first, I'd love to ask you, like, what your last meal would be? Or what is the greatest meal you've ever eaten? But also, and you're still very young. And so the life, there's still more experiences to be had, right?

• 1:31:28Lex Fridman?

  And for me, like, how do you go about finding the best meal in the world? Is there a device you could give, essentially?

• 1:31:38Speaker 01

  There's that sense of anticipation, right? So if it's the best meal, I'd say for you, it would need to be on the heels of something where you'd pushed yourself with a fast or with an athletic event, right? Or something like you would be coming into it with a sense of anticipation because of deprivation.

• 1:31:58Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 1:31:58Speaker 01

  You'd be hungry for it in a bigger sense of the word, like hungry for deep nutrition on your soul level and your, as well as your belly. So I'd say that you'd have to think about it as a, as a phase of things, like multiple things. And then I also think, you know, you, you love meat, you love cheese. You have to have some things that come together, right? Like, there's got to be some specific elements of just your favorite flavors in that.

• 1:32:21Lex Fridman?

  But there could be flavors yet to be discovered. That's a whole other thing, because I just.

• 1:32:27Lex Fridman?

  Emotionally and physically feel good on meat, but that's not, that doesn't mean like, maybe like a rice-based dish, like sushi or something like that. Or Indian cuisine where it's like sauces and the breads and whatever, you know, I love that stuff too. So we're not talking about like, you know, a meal is an experience that could be like a one-night stand, but with a

• 1:32:51Lex Fridman?

  with a piece of food, right? It could be a totally different than what actually makes you feel good when you eat it every day.

• 1:32:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, absolutely. Completely, completely analogous. I get that. I mean, you also though, there's elements of comfort and love and those different pieces for you. But I think you, you gotta look at like, where would you go somewhere? Like, would you go to a place where you could, you know, hike in Japan and then end up in a little place where you'd eat something?

• 1:33:15Lex Fridman?

  That's right.

• 1:33:15Speaker 01

  That's where I would think you were gonna have that magic moment.

• 1:33:17Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 1:33:18Speaker 01

  You know, maybe someplace you go to Mongolia and you're in a, in a really extreme environment for three or four days. And then you come back and you're in a farm and you get something on the table that's a surprise and you're hungry. Like, that's gonna be the moment where you're it gonna explode in the instance of like the culinary level.

• 1:33:34Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 1:33:34Speaker 01

  For Alex, that levels up, right? Like, that's the journey for you. It has to be, I think from understanding you, like a combination of that pushing yourself, anticipation, and, and something about the

• 1:33:45Lex Fridman?

  Some sorts.

• 1:33:46Speaker 01

  Exactly, and the environment.

• 1:33:47Lex Fridman?

  Well, I definitely, definitely, like, some fasting is part of a great meal for me. So like, 24 hours is like the minimum. You're, you're more sensitive to the richness of any experience for me when I fast 24 hours. Like, and so that's a requirement for a good meal is 24-hour fast, I think. It's just like you're able to taste, I don't know, maybe psychological, but you're able to disassemble the various flavors in a meal. As simple as like even a chicken breast. There's all kinds of flavors going on. Because like, when you cook a chicken breast, there's like the outside, the inside, I mean, the volume of the meat tastes different as you eat like the different fibers.

• 1:34:31Lex Fridman?

  And you can like tell all those differences as you're eating when you're, you've fasted and you can appreciate that. And of course, you're right, part, part of the, the journey is important. It makes me think like, well, the restaurants is the right Place to explore?

• 1:34:45Speaker 01

  I'm envisioning it on a farm for you. And I'm envisioning it in a place that's like really into ag and food. You know, like even a place like Romania. You know, like they have incredible farms, right? Where it's not you're gonna get any like fancy restaurants there, but you're probably gonna have some amazing little cheeses and cured meats and you might go to some, you know, have some experience and end up in a place with like four things on the plate and each of them blows your mind.

• 1:35:08Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 1:35:08Speaker 01

  You know, like, or Japan is another place like that. Um, I think Vietnam, Laos, like, I mean, those are countries where there's like these incredible niche ingredients and this essentialism around food.

• 1:35:18Lex Fridman?

  That's fascinating. Or maybe it's in Russia with Putin. That might be the best meal in the world.

• 1:35:22Speaker 01

  Go with him on the farm tour.

• 1:35:23Lex Fridman?

  Yeah. That'd be, uh, it's, it's hard to reproduce that. If that is in fact a good meal, it'd be, you know, it's hard to, it's hard to get him out to the farm. But maybe one time, it'd be the best meal. What about you?

• 1:35:35Speaker 01

  For me, like, it's the, it's the ingredients that I associate with like indulgence, like be fresh bread with like my favorite culture butter on it, be food of my childhood. I grew up in Oregon, we always had salmon and I'd smoke salmon or salmon eggs, like really good salmon eggs. I love cheese, I love goat cheese, I love all kinds of cheese. There'd be cheese, I love meat, obviously. I'm imagining it's sort of like an abundance of like 10 things I love. It's not a dish, you know, it's like all the yummy things.

• 1:36:02Lex Fridman?

  All of your indulgences, simply, yeah.

• 1:36:04Speaker 01

  Yeah. And there isn't like, for me, there's not like a big cake or something super like that. It's like really yummy things that I love, like really fresh crusty delicious bread that's warm and it's got a bunch of butter on it. And I could put some salt on it and eat a big slab of that. That's just, that's where I'm at.

• 1:36:19Lex Fridman?

  That's funny. And so meat to you is not like one of those indulgences.

• 1:36:24Speaker 01

  Definitely, there'd definitely be steak there too. I'm just imagining not like there isn't a specific dish. It's like eight or 10 things, right? It's the fresh bread.

• 1:36:31Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 1:36:31Speaker 01

  It's something like fishy yummy, probably be really good fresh berries too. There'd be a steak or a pork chop or something like meaty and delicious and savory. Um, there'd be some cheese, just a bunch of different things that I love to eat. That like all kind of checkboxes for me is probably what would make me happiest.

• 1:36:49Lex Fridman?

  I'm afraid of variety.

• 1:36:50Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:36:51Lex Fridman?

  I, I like the focus when you could just, this is all you have, the scarcity of just this is the one ingredient.

• 1:36:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:36:57Lex Fridman?

  And really appreciating, appreciating it, or maybe one thing, like one full, complex flavor, whatever the heck that is.

• 1:37:04Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:37:05Lex Fridman?

  It's like the distraction, the serial dating nature of having a bunch of things on a plate is, yeah, for some reason that prevents me from fully enjoying any one of them. I don't know why that is. The more healthy way to do it is the varieties. Your way is the healthier way to do it. Is alcohol involved?

• 1:37:27Speaker 01

  I don't drink very much. I like red wine, but I just don't really, I love, yeah, I love red wine with good food. And I also co-founded a rum business that's an organic rum, so I love that product. But it's not, for me, it's like I'm more interested in the food, I'd say.

• 1:37:48Lex Fridman?

  Is there some connection between your chef life, cooking and music? Does this music have a role in the experience?

• 1:37:56Speaker 01

  Like, I love artistic expression and that's always had a role in my life in the same way I love to paint and draw and all the different things. I was a professional musician when I lived in Sicily. By definition, technicality, because I played in the municipal band.

• 1:38:14Speaker 01

  So I would march around the town with all the funerals. I get like fifty euro every time I'd like march in a funeral playing my oboe. So it's given me, I like that because I like to, like you were talking about going to farms. Like what I quested for was experience and connection, right? In places where I could learn things. That's been the through line of my learning journey. I've learned things and sought knowledge that I can't get in any conventional learning environment. And so what are the tools that let me do that? It was like being adaptable and comfortable in different cultures, but also having common ground points, right? That are, that are, that are, allow you to connect with people. So music's one of those things. So I love like, you know, music, but I also, you know, any, there's any number of different, enjoy of food,

• 1:38:57Speaker 01

  being able to pitch in, help in the kitchen, you know, play cards. Like those are when you're dealing with getting into like farming communities and stuff, that stuff really helps, right? So I basically have cultivated tools that let me drop into places where I can learn. And so those are all kind of of a piece.

• 1:39:13Lex Fridman?

  Those are just tools to get in there. That said, we did listen to some Justin Bieber earlier today. That was, I need to get more into him. I need to, I need to understand the full complexity of the Beebs. You're trying to achieve what hunting stands for, but at a much larger scale, which is what kind of Bell Campo stands for. But what are your thoughts on hunting as a source of meat?

• 1:39:32Speaker 01

  Amazing. Hundred percent pro hunting. I think the reason that hunting flips the switch for so many people is because it's the first time they've had clean meat in their lives. Okay, so I think that the hunter's journey, when people get so turned on by hunting, they're just like, oh, my God, never going back.

• 1:39:53Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 1:39:53Speaker 01

  I'm saying that's great if you got access to that, or if you know the guy who'll give you the backstrap, awesome. But like, you, that's not very, that's not achievable for most of us.

• 1:40:01Lex Fridman?

  Yes.

• 1:40:02Speaker 01

  And I do think that talking to hunters about their experiences, what they love about it, many of them are just outdoors. And I say that because most of them are men, but most of them love the outdoors aspect of it and being out in the wild. But a lot of them, it's because of how they feel when they eat the meat.

• 1:40:16Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 1:40:16Speaker 01

  And it's because they're eating, I mean, 99% of meat in America is made in a very specific way. And it's in a way that is pretty inflammatory, not incredibly delicious. And when you're on that extreme, and then you toggle to having this totally different style of product, it feels radically different in your body. So of course, you're like, I'll never go back. So when I talk about us being on that spectrum, it's like, well, it's hunting meat. I mean, I can never on any commercial operation, create the variety of biodiversity of species that an elk gets when it's wandering around of a zone. I mean, I could, there's no way you can do that on a farm. So there's always going to be that extra five or 10% that those wild animals are going to have, you know? And those wild

• 1:41:01Speaker 01

  animals also fast for longer. So they go through periods of starvation, and that creates an even like slower growth for musculature. That's going to be create even more unique flavor and characteristics. And so that's why there's that that extra in the hunted meat. But you can come a lot closer with regenerative traditional farming to that flavor and health than with any other type of farming I know. So that's where I see it on the spectrum. I love that people are getting excited about about game, because it's all, it's better for your health. It's got all the same characteristics as regenerative farm meat. And it gets people turned on to like, simple delicious food. You know, you

• 1:41:41Speaker 01

  shouldn't have to cover food with sauce that's got corn syrup and soy, a bunch of junk in it to make it palatable. If you gotta put sauce on your food, you need to look at your ingredients. You need to revisit what you're starting from. Because if you have to put a bunch of things to mask flavor onto anything you're eating, you're trying to basically fool your palate into doing what's not best for your body. We're trying to tell our palates, like, just make it through this plate so you can get the calories in. And we're masking the fact that we don't actually find it very appetizing. So we're kind of teaching ourselves to overcome our instinct with food.

• 1:42:21Speaker 01

  We're saying, here's this kind of bland base substrate, not very interesting, I'm not like sparking to it. Awesome, put sugar and salt on it. This up the hyper-processed flavor profile. Great, done. And then you're sparked to it.

• 1:42:33Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 1:42:34Speaker 01

  That's not, that's a very short road, and that's, I think, a lot of the health problems we have now is because we're masking flavors and basically trying to get ourselves to move down this path of the same way we behave around all hyper-processed foods.

• 1:42:46Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 1:42:46Speaker 01

  And that gets us into a mess with our health. So if we can get things like game where people love the flavor out of the gate, but it's natural, simple, mentally processed, like, that's a win.

• 1:42:56Lex Fridman?

  Yeah. It reverses that hyper-processing trend that we're on as a human species. And that's, that's the promise of regenerative farming, that's the promise of hunting. Obviously, the former can be scaled, the hunting, I think, cannot be scaled, right? But in many ways, the hunting inspires the world that this is the right way to eat.

• 1:43:19Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:43:20Lex Fridman?

  And that naturally leads to then the humane farming, regenerative farming idea, which is this idea that hunting represents. How do you scale that?

• 1:43:32Speaker 01

  Well, if you look at like, you know, we're talking about people use the sort of marketing language of like happy cows or that kind of thing. You know, if you're talking about the happiest animals, it's wild animals, right? So if you wonder why these practices are good, talk to hunters. You know, you're talking about animals that have lived in their evolutionary capacity, right? Who have played their role in the ecosystem, who've lived their meaning of life, right? And that's a very powerfully different kind of role than livestock production. So I think if we can make our livestock production as similar to wild as possible, then we're a lot of steps closer.

• 1:44:07Lex Fridman?

  So you said the animals are happiest in the wild, and that's where they find meaning. What about us, the human animal? What's the meaning for us, do you think? You've monitored the life cycle of a lot of living beings. You ever look in the mirror and think like, why the hell are we humans here?

• 1:44:25Speaker 01

  Ah, I mean, thriving, reducing suffering, creating goodness. I mean, those are the things I see in in animals' behavior. They're mostly interested in in reducing suffering and and nurturing, right? Those are the things that I think evolutionarily.

• 1:44:45Lex Fridman?

  And we humans are just clever and we want to be able to try to do that at a bigger and bigger scale. Like, as much as possible, reduce the suffering in the world. And somehow that alleviates us of our own suffering. That's the Russian thing, life is suffering. And somehow helping others alleviates it. And come up with creative solutions to do that. That's really interesting.

• 1:45:10Lex Fridman?

  It's almost consciousness is the thing that led to suffering, but it also led to the desire to alleviate the suffering. It's a it's a feedback loop. Consciousness creates suffering and the desire to alleviate it. Is there yet a pretty nonlinear life? Your parents were professors. You have done a lot of sort of incredible things that many would say, kind of, like, how the hell are you going to get this done? Is there advice you can give to young people today? Like, high school, college? About how to do, how to live a similarly nonlinear crazy life and accomplish, be as successful as you have been?

• 1:45:54Lex Fridman?

  About whether it's just their career or life in general?

• 1:45:59Speaker 01

  The greatest gifts I've been given have come from pursuing curiosity.

• 1:46:09Lex Fridman?

  Just trying to understand the thing you're curious about and allowing yourself to be curious about and just going with it.

• 1:46:16Speaker 01

  And also pursuing things that are like deeply joyful for me.

• 1:46:23Lex Fridman?

  Not what society wants, but you just personally, just on your own, you're happy that you did it.

• 1:46:26Speaker 01

  And that's something that in the times when I've strayed from that, my life has been harder. Right? So it's fundamentally, what are we on earth to do, you know, to live and thrive? And so pursuing things that are curious and satisfying and interesting and joyful and allow me to to grow. So the, I made a number of choices to do things that were more complicated and kind of not not considered like cool at the time, although now it's cool to work on farms. It wasn't when I started my career in animal agriculture. And it was

• 1:47:09Speaker 01

  like, but just deeply interesting to me. And I felt like there was just lots to learn. And so that's been the the path for me is like going for something that's like curious and hard and kind of sticking with it and being open to it and

• 1:47:26Speaker 01

  growing elements that give me joy through that. So I also, you know, for people who are starting out in their careers and want to do something different too, it's like get out of your comfort. Go to a place that you've got something to learn from and let it teach you that and you'll you'll get beat up. Like I got beat up by that experience. Like it was really hard. You know, I laugh about now working for in Sicily for, excuse me, I mean, like, and the funny experiences I had there, but it was hard. I was lonely and cried a lot. It was stressful. It was like, it was hard. It was really hard.

• 1:47:57Lex Fridman?

  When you're inside of it, you didn't know how it's going to turn out. You didn't know it's going to turn out well.

• 1:48:01Speaker 01

  And I'm like, why didn't I get a job doing something that all my friends are doing? And and and I didn't speak the language. I had to learn a foreign language and learn how to function. And it like, it was very lonely and very challenging. But then that's where my resilience started to grow. Right? So the things I learned there ended up just being about resilience and. Understanding the language of subtlety and meaning. So that's something that's carried me through my life. But it was a curiosity about cheesemaking and about like just living in a village that was there. I'm like, wouldn't it be amazing just live in a really rural village?

• 1:48:31Lex Fridman?

  And you just went with it.

• 1:48:32Speaker 01

  And I just like, this seems incredible and have a place where you can, you know, and these like, the people seem interesting, the food seems good. And let's just like, try this and see what I can learn. And that, like, putting yourself out of your comfort zone in a place where you have a chance to learn and grow is, is the, the secret. Because it's, you grow through discomfort. You know, people think that you grow when you get into this environment where everything's like, kind of sailing along. But like, growth actually comes through pain. You know, it's like, you, you, you know, growth comes from being cut down and beat down and having to re, regrow and double down. And so that kind of, that kind of opportunity, you have to seek it out. You have to put yourself in the line of fire a bit.

• 1:49:15Lex Fridman?

  If the situation sucks, it's a sign that you might be doing something right. In the sense that you're on the path, at the end of which you'll be a better person. If you allow yourself to grow in that way, like as opposed to resisting it, just going along with the journey and persevering. And that ended us up in this incredible place. This whole conversation, I'll probably overlay a video. I'm, I'm looking at a gorgeous mountain and it's an incredible farm. Thank you so much for a meal yesterday. That was incredible.

• 1:49:49Lex Fridman?

  The cheese, the fish eggs, just everything about this place. Looking up, you can see the stars. The stars at night are beautiful and there's a peacefulness to it. I had a pretty hard week, actually, just emotionally in many ways. And just coming here, it's immediately so much of it is lifted. So I really deeply appreciate Anya that you would invite me here and that you had this conversation. This was, this was really awesome. So thank you so much.

• 1:50:17Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 1:50:19Lex Fridman?

  Thanks for listening to this conversation with Anya Fernald, and thank you to Gala Games, Athletic Greens, Four Sigmatic, and Fundrise. Check them out in the description to support this podcast. And now, let me leave you with some words from the ancient Chinese philosopher Lao Tzu. "Nature does not hurry, yet everything is accomplished." Thank you for listening, and I hope to see you next time.