308. Catching the Boogeyman - The Murder of Robin Lawrence

On this episode, Garrett and Payton dive into the case of Robin Lawrence, a woman found murdered in her home in a crime that left investigators with almost no leads and a mystery that lingered for decades. As time passed and technology evolved, a hidden piece of evidence quietly waited in the background, holding the potential to change everything. Links: Netflix: https://www.netflix.com/murderwithmyhusband Garretts BAGEL SHOP : https://www.instagram.com/ohnobagels/ Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/murderwithmyhusband NEW MERCH LINK: https://mwmhshop.com Discount Codes: https://mailchi.mp/c6f48670aeac/oh-no-media-discount-codes Twitch: https://www.twitch.tv/themwmh Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/murderwithmyhusband/ Watch on Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@murderwithmyhusband Listen on Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/into-the-dark/id1662304327 Listen on spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/36SDVKB2MEWpFGVs9kRgQ7?si=f5224c9fd99542a7 Case Sources: CBSNews.com - https://www.cbsnews.com/news/stephen-smerk-new-york-robin-warr-lawrence-murder-virginia-cold-case-48-hours/ USAToday.com - https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2025/03/10/stephan-smerk-virginia-murder-robin-lawrence/82233382007/ NBCWashington.com - https://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local/after-killers-sentencing-30-years-of-unanswered-questions-come-to-end-for-1994-cold-case-victims-family/3862175/ CBS6Albany.com - https://cbs6albany.com/news/local/niskayuna-man-sentenced-to-70-years-for-1994-virginia-murder-featured-on-cbss-48-hours-robin-lawerence-stephan-smerk WJLA.com - https://wjla.com/news/local/this-man-will-pay-virginia-family-finds-closure-after-murderer-is-sentenced-to-life-cold-case-murder-guilty-conviction-killer-found-crime-dmv-investigation-forensics-fairfax-burke-case-robin-lawrence-death-stabbing-family-smerk TheIndependent.com - https://www.the-independent.com/news/world/americas/crime/serial-killer-sentencing-robin-lawrence-b2716557.html AugustaFreePress.com - https://augustafreepress.com/news/the-boogeyman-chilling-confession-brings-end-to-northern-virginia-murder-case/ FFXNow.com - https://www.ffxnow.com/2025/03/07/former-army-soldier-sentenced-to-70-years-in-prison-for-1994-west-springfield-murder/ TMZ.com - https://www.tmz.com/2025/10/25/stephan-smerk-30-year-cold-case-murder-dna-arrested/ WUSA9.com - https://www.wusa9.com/article/news/crime/man-sentenced-for-1994-cold-case-murder-of-virginia-mother-life-in-prison/65-1b50f3a2-a6c8-4e30-98fb-1abfefb953ca WashingtonPost.com - https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md-va/2025/03/07/stephen-smerk-cold-case-sentencing-robin-lawrence/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Payton Moreland?

  You're listening to an Ono Media Podcast. Hey everyone, welcome back to the podcast. This is Murder with my Husband. I'm Payton Moreland.

• 0:08Garrett Moreland?

  And I'm Garrett Moreland.

• 0:09Payton Moreland?

  And he's the husband.

• 0:10Garrett Moreland?

  And I'm the husband.

• 0:11Payton Moreland?

  Thank you guys so much for being here and for constantly supporting the show. We love you guys more than you know. And honestly, I hope you are having an amazing week. Just a reminder, we do have merch available. If you want to go check it out, you can find the link to that on our Instagram.

• 0:30Garrett Moreland?

  Big, big, huge, ginormous announcement. Nothing to do with the podcast. I announced my bagel shop name. There's an Instagram account for the bagel shop. I'm posting on it. We're opening, honestly, probably within two months. I'm stressed. There's a lot going on, busy, spent all day plumbing something that didn't work. That's okay. Life goes on. Anyways, if you want to support, this is probably the last time I'll mention it for a second, so I don't annoy anyone. But the Instagram account to my bagel shop will be below. You can go check it out. I'm going to be posting bagel content.

• 1:07Garrett Moreland?

  I'm going to be posting business content on what it's like opening a bagel shop, all the equipment that's coming in, just kind of A through Z, the whole building process. So go and check it out if you are interested. And that can be my 10 seconds. Like I said, I was plumbing earlier and it's just not working and it's making me so mad. And now we're recording and all I can think about is how I can't fix this plumbing issue. And that's my life, you know? Crazy life. Plumbing, bagels, podcasts.

• 1:37Payton Moreland?

  You don't want to tell the listeners the name?

• 1:39Garrett Moreland?

  No, you have to go check it out. Gotta go look. If you want to know the name, you gotta go look.

• 1:44Payton Moreland?

  Okay, tell them what you were plumbing.

• 1:46Garrett Moreland?

  Peyton's Vanity Sink. There's just a bunch of issues the way it was installed. It's just like a bunch of Lego pieces and it shouldn't be a bunch of Lego pieces, but I have to make it a bunch of Lego pieces. So I just ordered a bunch of stuff from Home Depot. It should be here in a bit, but we're going to go eat after this and then I'm going to try to fix it tonight. I don't know. It's crazy. If you can't tell, I'm a little frustrated, but I'm trying not to be. And yeah,

• 2:13Garrett Moreland?

  that's what I got.

• 2:14Payton Moreland?

  All right. You ready for the episode?

• 2:15Garrett Moreland?

  Let's do it.

• 2:16Payton Moreland?

  You guys ready for the episode? Yeah. Kidding. All right, let's get into it. Our sources for this episode are CBSnews.com, USAtoday.com, NBCWashington.com, CBS6Albany.com, WJLA.com, TheIndependent.com, AugustaFreePress.com, FFXNow.com, TMZ, WUSA9.com, and Washington Post. So, part of the reason we are so fascinated with true crime is because we wanna get inside the minds of the people who commit these crimes. Try and understand what makes a monster,

• 2:57Payton Moreland?

  which leads to questions like, how does someone even become a serial killer? If someone killed with intention once, does it mean that they're gonna do it again?

• 3:08Garrett Moreland?

  Yes.

• 3:08Payton Moreland?

  Or can those impulses be channeled elsewhere?

• 3:12Garrett Moreland?

  No.

• 3:13Payton Moreland?

  Especially when they walked away from their crime completely undetected. And Garrett's saying yes and no, but it is very heard of, of not just random killers, but serial killers who one day just stop. Golden State Killer.

• 3:28Garrett Moreland?

  But did they?

• 3:29Payton Moreland?

  Yes. BTK.

• 3:32Garrett Moreland?

  But like, did they actually stop?

• 3:35Payton Moreland?

  The Golden State Killer, yes.

• 3:37Garrett Moreland?

  But how do we know?

• 3:38Payton Moreland?

  He said so. BTK also said so.

• 3:41Garrett Moreland?

  Can we trust them?

• 3:42Payton Moreland?

  They had such a severe MO.

• 3:45Garrett Moreland?

  I know, I just, they've lied their entire lives.

• 3:47Payton Moreland?

  Yeah, I get that.

• 3:48Garrett Moreland?

  I just, I think I refuse to trust.

• 3:50Payton Moreland?

  Right.

• 3:51Garrett Moreland?

  Yeah. I don't know, I don't think, like, I think what actually probably happened, if the opportunity presented itself.

• 3:59Payton Moreland?

  They would do it again.

• 4:00Garrett Moreland?

  They would do it again.

• 4:01Payton Moreland?

  They just weren't searching out.

• 4:02Garrett Moreland?

  I think they weren't searching out, then we got older, things got harder. But I think if the opportunity presented itself in front of them, they'd be like, yeah.

• 4:11Payton Moreland?

  You know what's interesting?

• 4:12Garrett Moreland?

  I think it's, um...

• 4:15Garrett Moreland?

  Probably a bad thing to compare it to, but I mean, for those who are like sober, right? And trying to quit alcohol. Is that what you were gonna say?

• 4:21Payton Moreland?

  Yeah, this is exactly what I was gonna say.

• 4:22Garrett Moreland?

  Like they try to either stay away from alcohol or they try to distance themselves from X amount, X drug, whatever it is, because they know if the opportunity presents itself, it makes it harder.

• 4:30Payton Moreland?

  Which.

• 4:32Garrett Moreland?

  Not comparing that to serial killers because completely different spectrums.

• 4:35Payton Moreland?

  But they compare it in their minds. I've heard multiple interviews from serial killers who kill because they have urges to, and they say, I was trying my best not to. I was trying to avoid situations that would put me in it.

• 4:49Garrett Moreland?

  I just hate that because I just think they're such evil people. I hate giving them the, uh, what's the word? Not benefit of the doubt, but the chance that there is an

• 5:00Payton Moreland?

  Another reason.

• 5:01Garrett Moreland?

  Reasonable explanation, I guess, is what I'm trying to say.

• 5:04Payton Moreland?

  Nothing, no reasonable.

• 5:06Garrett Moreland?

  And I know you and I probably disagree on this. I just think if you kill evil person, leave society.

• 5:12Payton Moreland?

  I don't disagree with that.

• 5:13Garrett Moreland?

  Yeah. I think I disagree with, this is kind of a long intro.

• 5:17Payton Moreland?

  It's fine.

• 5:17Garrett Moreland?

  Like reformation, or reformation, whichever, however you want to say. I just, I disagree with that when someone kills somebody. I think I can.

• 5:25Payton Moreland?

  In all situations?

• 5:27Garrett Moreland?

  Not manslaughter, first degree, second degree murder. Yes. Yeah. I think if you can cross that line, you are.

• 5:36Payton Moreland?

  What if it was one time versus serial killer?

• 5:39Garrett Moreland?

  Like what's the one time consist of? Like domestic abuse or?

• 5:43Payton Moreland?

  Anything. Gang violence, domestic violence.

• 5:46Garrett Moreland?

  I just think that once you cross that line of killing somebody, like first, second degree murder, I think there is, I am, I dare to say a hundred percent of the time, if the opportunity presented itself again, they would do it. Yeah.

• 6:01Payton Moreland?

  Even if the motive was very specific?

• 6:04Garrett Moreland?

  Yeah.

• 6:05Payton Moreland?

  Interesting.

• 6:06Garrett Moreland?

  Yeah, I don't know. It's just.

• 6:08Payton Moreland?

  I mean, Israel Keyes, for instance.

• 6:10Garrett Moreland?

  Okay.

• 6:10Payton Moreland?

  He claimed that he would rob banks in place of killing people because it held off his urges. It like calmed him down enough to like feed the adrenaline.

• 6:22Garrett Moreland?

  Yes.

• 6:22Payton Moreland?

  And the urge he was having, but then eventually robbing banks or doing other things weren't enough and he would end up killing.

• 6:29Garrett Moreland?

  Exactly.

• 6:30Payton Moreland?

  Which is so, ah, the mind is just a pattern that repeats and repeats and repeats.

• 6:35Garrett Moreland?

  I think once a killer, always a killer.

• 6:37Payton Moreland?

  Okay.

• 6:39Garrett Moreland?

  Like I said, first degree, second degree. I think manslaughter and other situations are unique, but yeah.

• 6:44Payton Moreland?

  Can you walk away? Can you be done? Which is why today's story is unique. It is about a case that ran cold for decades and then a new technology led to a breakthrough and a killer that was never once suspected. He had a job. He had a family. He had a completely normal life, actually more common than you would think, which had him asking many of these questions about himself. Why did I kill? And was the monster still living inside of him, just waiting to be unleashed once more, as Garrett would say. So with that, let's head back to 1994, to a bustling suburb outside of Washington DC called Springfield,

• 7:29Payton Moreland?

  Virginia. That is where 37-year-old artist and mother, Robin Lawrence, is living her peaceful life. Now, Robin was described as a gentle soul who always had a smile on her face. She was also someone who had a lot to be proud of. At 37, she was in a happy marriage. She had a two-year-old little girl, a job as the director of advertising for a tire company, and she was also the daughter of the first black man to be a counselor on the Syracuse Common Council in New York.

• 8:05Garrett Moreland?

  Okay.

• 8:06Payton Moreland?

  This is the legislative body of the local government there. But Robin's passions were different from her father's. She attended Carnegie Mellon University in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, and graduated with a fine arts degree. Everyone who knew her said she was an extremely gifted artist, especially when it came to pencil sketches and watercolors. It's not shocking she graduated in the arts. And after graduating, she was actually selected to create the first medal for the Martin Luther King Jr. Nonviolent Peace Prize. This was an award that was actually then given to Rosa Parks.

• 8:47Payton Moreland?

  Then she later moved to Washington DC where she met her husband, Ollie. And friends said, "Ollie and Robin were perfect for each other." "Ollie completely matched Robin's demeanor." "He was also easygoing. He made people feel comfortable around him." "He was a warm man with a kind smile." "And on New Year's Eve, 1989, the two tied the knot." "And then three years later, they had their daughter, Nicole." Now by then, Robin had her job in advertising I talked about earlier, "and Ollie was an executive for an airline." So in 1994, when Nicole, the daughter, was about two,

• 9:31Payton Moreland?

  "the couple was living this very domesticated life." "Ollie traveled quite a bit for work, "but Robin made the most of her husband's time away." "She would work on her art. She would do some improvements around the home." "They really were living the American dream, "content to live out their days as this happy little family in suburbia." "That was until November 20th, 1994." Now that week, Ollie had been away on a work trip in the Bahamas. "And after not hearing from Robin for about 48 hours or so, "he decided to call Robin's good friend and neighbor, Lori Lindberg."

• 10:14Payton Moreland?

  So he's in the Bahamas. He's trying to get ahold of his wife back home. She's not answering. Forty-eight hours go by. He calls her friend and neighbor Lori. Now Lori and Robin had been close for years. They met back in Washington DC at a ballet class. They had quickly become friends. They eventually got an apartment together and were roommates "before Robin met Ollie and then moved out to live with him." So this wasn't just any neighbor. When Lori heard from Ollie, she was nervous too "because Robin is a pretty long-term friend of hers." So Lori gets up and she walks over to Robin's home and knocks on the front door. But there is no answer. So Lori decides to go around back

• 10:59Payton Moreland?

  "and she saw one of the back window screens of the family home was cut."

• 11:07Payton Moreland?

  And so this is when she realizes something is probably wrong. So she actually climbs in through the window, which I totally understand why she did, but zero out of 10 recommend because nowadays we know that there's probably so much evidence in that window, but I don't think back then that was common knowledge. So she climbs in and she starts calling Robin's name, obviously desperate and worried about her friend. But it wasn't Robin who appeared. Instead, two-year-old baby Nicole

• 11:41Garrett Moreland?

  Oh no.

• 11:42Payton Moreland?

  Came wandering up to her, looking at her

• 11:46Garrett Moreland?

  That's so sad.

• 11:47Payton Moreland?

  With these giant eyes and this blank expression on her face. And that's when Lori's heart sank. She continued toward the primary bedroom, noticing blood all over the walls and large splatters of blood on the floor. And when she notices all of this, sees the state of two-year-old Nicole, she decides, I'm not even gonna step into the bedroom. This is her dear friend. She knows something is terribly wrong, so she picks up Nicole.

• 12:18Garrett Moreland?

  Yeah.

• 12:19Payton Moreland?

  She gets out of the house and dials 911.

• 12:22Garrett Moreland?

  That's horrible.

• 12:24Payton Moreland?

  Now, moments later, the police arrived to the scene and it was around 12:30 PM when they entered the house and found Robin's body face down on the floor of the primary bedroom with a pillow between her legs. She had extensive knife wounds all over her body. The autopsy would later count 49 stab wounds to her body. Now, the phone was also on the floor next to Robin, but the cord had been cut.

• 12:58Garrett Moreland?

  Okay.

• 12:59Payton Moreland?

  Officials determined by this point, Robin had been dead for about two days. Which if you're putting two and two together means, yes, her two-year-old daughter had been left alone by herself with her mother's body for that long.

• 13:17Payton Moreland?

  Now meanwhile, Lori took Nicole to the hospital for treatment. Remember, we are in 1994. Now thankfully, Nicole was completely unharmed in the attack, but I mean, she has been alone for two days. However, Nicole had undergone a liver transplant in the past. So she was on immunosuppressive medications that she now hadn't taken in two days. So her health was fragile. Luckily, she was discharged shortly after she was treated for dehydration. Now, of course, the psychological damage for those last two days would likely never go away. But back at the scene, detectives were trying to piece together what had happened.

• 14:00Payton Moreland?

  And they realized that the last time anyone had heard from Robin was around 6:00 PM on the night of Friday, November 18.

• 14:10Garrett Moreland?

  I mean, sadly, I think as soon as you see the screens cut, like you instantly know what's going on. Like you know, something bad happened because no one goes and cuts people's screens for no reason, you know?

• 14:24Payton Moreland?

  You really are jumping to the conclusion someone's dead in there.

• 14:26Garrett Moreland?

  For sure.

• 14:29Payton Moreland?

  I don't think.

• 14:29Garrett Moreland?

  Dead or taken.

• 14:31Payton Moreland?

  I think most people would err on the like bright side and be like.

• 14:35Garrett Moreland?

  Oh, that branch just like hit the screen and cut it.

• 14:39Payton Moreland?

  No, but just like hopefully it's a robbery and they're tied up inside.

• 14:43Garrett Moreland?

  Oh, I see what you're saying. Yeah, I think, I think after doing so many of these cases.

• 14:47Payton Moreland?

  Yeah.

• 14:49Garrett Moreland?

  Just always expect the worst.

• 14:51Payton Moreland?

  This is also 1994. I mean, we have forensic files on TV, but.

• 14:54Garrett Moreland?

  When I was born, yep.

• 14:56Payton Moreland?

  I don't know if as many people were as like pessimistic on their safety as people are today.

• 15:01Garrett Moreland?

  Yeah, it's true.

• 15:02Payton Moreland?

  Pessimistic isn't even the word realistic.

• 15:04Garrett Moreland?

  Yeah.

• 15:04Payton Moreland?

  About their safety.

• 15:06Garrett Moreland?

  This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. There are plenty of reasons we put off getting support. And for a lot of people, cost is one of them. With BetterHelp, insurance options may now be available nationwide with an average copay for eligible members of just $23 per session. And while we're reconsidering old assumptions, maybe there are a few others worth questioning too.

• 15:29Payton Moreland?

  Women inherit a lot of unwritten rules. Be ambitious, but not intimidating. Be there for everyone, but still make time for yourself. Have it all together, but don't look like you're trying too hard. And I have definitely fallen into all of these traps. But if you have been wanting to start therapy, BetterHelp works with more than 125 health plan networks and eligible members have an average copay of just $23 per session with insurance. If you don't have insurance or don't live in the United States, you can still get 10% off your first month.

• 16:01Garrett Moreland?

  And Peyton and I are big advocates for therapy. Give it a try. Life can be crazy. There's a lot going on. Like we were talking about, sometimes it feels like you need to have everything figured out. You don't. Go talk to someone. Go see what's going on. Visit betterhelp.com/husband to explore your payment options. That's betterhelp, H E L P dot com slash husband.

• 16:22Payton Moreland?

  All right, guys, we are getting into a sponsor and it is one of my favorites, Quince. You know those pieces in your closet that you find yourself reaching for over and over again? The sweater that just somehow works with everything, the jeans you know are always gonna fit, that bag you carry everywhere? Well, that is Quince in my closet, okay? All of my Quince products have become my staples, which is why I highly, highly recommend going to Quince's website, checking everything out. It is the quality. It is the quality that sets them apart. I mean, you have the price that they've been able to cut out the middlemen

• 17:01Payton Moreland?

  and work directly with factories, so it is cheaper. But the quality of Quince items, I have had them for years. And again, I continue to reach for them time and time again. I'm talking loungewear, silk skirts, cashmere sweaters. And not to mention, they sell baby stuff, okay? Find the fall pieces you'll reach for most at Quince. Download the Quince app for app exclusive offers or go to quince.com. Get free shipping on your order and 365 day returns, now available in Canada and the UK too. And guys, at the very end, when Quince asks you where you heard about them, please, please, please just let them know. Murder with my husband, it is the best way to support the show. It lets them know that you heard about it here and it would mean a ton.

• 17:46Payton Moreland?

  Again, if you've never shopped on Quince, go take a look and then let them know Murder with my Husband sent you. So they're trying to piece together what happened and they believe that she was killed shortly after she was last heard on Friday, November 18th at around 9:30 that night. They discovered that Robin had been assaulted first on the bed and then fought her way down to the floor where the struggle continued. They also found a bunch of bloody tissues all around the house, which they actually believe came from two-year-old Nicole, who they believe was like subconsciously trying to clean the blood off of her mom

• 18:27Payton Moreland?

  because she knew something was wrong. There was also something else in the bathroom, though, that police realized could be important. A washcloth. It was sitting on the towel rod on the shower's sliding glass door, and it had a few spots of blood on it, which investigators thought could actually belong to the killer. So detectives collected a few other blood samples at the scene in case the assailant's DNA was mixed in with Robin's. But when they took it back and ran it through CODIS, which did exist at this point, but was fairly new, they didn't find a match. All they could really tell from the scene beyond that was

• 19:08Payton Moreland?

  that this didn't appear to be a robbery. There were no valuables taken from inside the home. Cash, jewelry, and other items were actually still sitting around. And they determined there was no evidence of sexual assault either. It was more just physical assault. So their first instinct was actually that this murder had to be personal. Now, as this is all going on, Lori Lindberg, the friend and neighbor who found Nicole and called police, was actually asked by police to notify Robin's parents about their daughter's death. And when Robin's sister, Mary, heard the news that her sister

• 19:51Payton Moreland?

  had died, she imagined it was from a car accident or a heart attack. She never in a million years thought her sister would be a victim of murder, mainly because it didn't make sense. Not only were the police keeping pertinent information from the family, they knew Robin had no enemies. And they also felt certain that there was no way Ollie would have done this to her. But just three days after what should have been Robin's 38th birthday, her family and friends were paying their respects at her funeral. Now, because Robin's injuries were so significant, it was a closed casket ceremony.

• 20:32Payton Moreland?

  Her sister Mary said it was incredibly hard because she was never able to lay eyes on her sister one final time. But that funeral was also unsettling for another reason. Based on what little information the police had shared with the family about the murder, they felt it had to be someone who knew Robin. Someone who might have been at the funeral with them, a wolf in sheep's clothing. Now, of course, for the police, their first person of interest was the one closest to Robin. And whether the family suspected him or not, it was obviously her husband, Ollie. Now, from the get-go, Ollie was always extremely cooperative with the police.

• 21:17Payton Moreland?

  Not to mention, he was out of the country when his wife was killed in the Bahamas for that business trip. And this was confirmed by detectives who literally flew down to the Bahamas to check Ollie's alibi in person. But when police start looking into Ollie, he wasn't squeaky clean. They learned Ollie had actually been having an affair with one of his coworkers. Robin didn't seem to know anything about it. So this makes detectives wonder, could this have been the jealous coworker looking to remove Robin from the equation? Or could Ollie have put the coworker up to it or hired a hitman?

• 22:00Payton Moreland?

  Well, after looking into this other woman, they find that's not the case. They actually clear her pretty quickly. The affair was an unfortunate scenario, one that probably poured salt in the wound of Robin's family. But they still believed after looking into everything, Ollie would never do anything to hurt his wife. Plus, Ollie and his mistress had offered up DNA to compare to the blood that was found at the crime scene. And when detectives ran it, they found zero match for either of them. So the unknown DNA on that bloody towel was still a mystery. It didn't belong to Robin or anyone else they were considering as a suspect. And it wasn't matching any of the results in CODIS, which meant over time...

• 22:46Payton Moreland?

  Robin's case actually started to run cold. Still, Robin's family refused to let her story disappear. Ollie and Nicole moved out of the house, but Robin's parents actually moved in for a few weeks after, hoping that they could just figure something out. Maybe the killer would return. Maybe a new clue would surface. Maybe someone would respond to the reward they had posted about getting more information. But the years passed with no new leads. And eventually, Robin's family came to terms with the possibility that Robin's case might never be solved. Their daughter was murdered and they have no idea who did it or why.

• 23:28Payton Moreland?

  In fact, Robin's mother actually passed away in 1994, not knowing what happened to her daughter that November night. So the family tried to move forward to be okay with just not knowing. That was until 2019. That's when a volunteer with the police department, who's only known by her first name, Liz, actually asked to take a look at Robin's cold case. Liz was an amateur genealogist at the time and she thought Robin's case was a good candidate for her studies, especially since there was unidentified DNA left behind at the crime scene. I mean, this is the perfect case for a modern day DNA solve.

• 24:13Payton Moreland?

  So with permission, she submitted that DNA over to a company called Parabon Nano Labs. Talked about them before. They uploaded it to their databases to see if there was anyone out there who had willingly submitted DNA to ancestry websites who might share a piece of DNA with the unknown assailant. That way Liz could build out a family tree and hopefully find a relative who might have lived in Robin's area at the time, maybe had a connection to Robin. Now unfortunately, Parabon didn't have high hopes that this process would work. They said the chances of solving her case this way were basically zero. And if you're wondering, okay, why?

• 24:57Payton Moreland?

  It was because when they ran this DNA, they found over 1,500 potential cousins.

• 25:05Garrett Moreland?

  Okay.

• 25:05Payton Moreland?

  I mean, they have matches first, second, fourth, fifth, sixth cousins. That means Liz would basically be trying to put together a family tree of 1,500 people and then see if any of them had a connection to Robin. They're like, listen, this is gonna take you a long time. We almost have too much DNA to work with. A needle in a haystack. What they did learn from that sample, though, was the suspect's ethnicity. Eastern European, about 25% Irish, and a combo of English, Italian, and Scandinavian. Unfortunately, that's all they really had to work off of for a while.

• 25:46Payton Moreland?

  That was until 2021, when Parabon reached out about using a new tool to help potentially identify the suspect in Robin's case. It's actually a really cool tool called DNA phenotyping. And if you don't know what that is, I'm going to explain it as best I can. Basically, it works like this. By analyzing a person's DNA, scientists can now predict what someone might actually look like. They can use the DNA to determine if their skin is fair or dark. Are their eyes likely blue or brown? Do they have a wider jaw, a narrow nose? Are their eyes set close together? You can literally tell this from DNA.

• 26:30Payton Moreland?

  And then companies like Parabon work with a forensic artist who can put together a sketch or a 3D rendering. Based on those features. The one thing DNA can't tell scientists yet, though, is their age. So they can tell what they may have looked like, but they don't know on a ratio of how young to how old. So artists typically render them to match someone in like their mid twenties, which is exactly what they did for the DNA found at Robin's home. And the sketch they ended up with was a white male with bluish hazel eyes, light brown hair, thin lips and a narrow chin. The picture is going to be on our Instagram or if you're watching here.

• 27:15Payton Moreland?

  Now it was time to show Robbins, family and friends, the picture to say, hey, we don't know how old, we don't know who, but we have used the DNA to put together a picture of what we think the murderer looked like. Do you know this person? Like, do you recognize this? Is it a neighbor? Is it a friend? A mailman, a gardener? But no one in the family said this guy looked familiar. Even Ollie told current police that the face didn't ring any bells. So the sketch ends up being a bit of a dead end. And police are kind of shocked because if you remember, they had predicted that the murderer would be someone Robin knew.

• 27:57Payton Moreland?

  It was a personal attack because there was no sexual assault. So they're a little shocked that no one recognizes this person, but they continue on.

• 28:06Garrett Moreland?

  Okay.

• 28:06Payton Moreland?

  That same volunteer genealogist, Liz, does not give up on Robin's case despite the fact that the DNA sample had 1,500 potential cousins. So little by little, Liz just spends her time checking each potential relative.

• 28:21Garrett Moreland?

  Oh my gosh, that's crazy.

• 28:23Payton Moreland?

  One by one.

• 28:24Garrett Moreland?

  I don't blame her.

• 28:24Payton Moreland?

  She's like, I know this is going to take forever. They told me this is like a needle in a haystack, but if we have no hits on this sketch, I'm just going to spend my extra time going through these.

• 28:33Garrett Moreland?

  Might as well.

• 28:34Payton Moreland?

  Three and a half years she spends going through.

• 28:39Garrett Moreland?

  Oh my gosh, that's.

• 28:40Payton Moreland?

  In her spare time.

• 28:42Garrett Moreland?

  Horrible.

• 28:42Payton Moreland?

  Just checking, are there any links? And finally, around 2023, she ends up finding two really good candidates in Canada. People that appear to be closely related to the suspect. So she builds out their family trees. And she finds that both of those matches actually do have a relative in common. It's a guy who lived in Virginia during the time of the murder.

• 29:12Garrett Moreland?

  Holy crap.

• 29:13Payton Moreland?

  They're getting closer. Uh, she figures out he would have been in his twenties at the time. Was now a 52 year old man named Stefan Smirk. So when she hands this name over to detectives and they begin looking into the guy, he doesn't raise any immediate red flags. He was a family man who had two kids in high school in Neskiuna, New York. He was a computer programmer who married a defense attorney. He had zero criminal record. He didn't even have a speeding ticket attached to his name. But there were a few things that interested detectives, especially as they looked deeper into his background. Back in November of 1994, the time of the murder.

• 29:59Payton Moreland?

  He was stationed at an army base 10 miles from Robin's home called Fort Meyer in Arlington, Virginia. And when they find a copy of his high school yearbook, they realize that it is not too far off from the phenotype sketch. It was made of the suspect.

• 30:17Garrett Moreland?

  Interesting.

• 30:18Payton Moreland?

  So basically it's enough for cold case detectives to be like, okay. On paper, he doesn't seem like our guy, but he kind of looks like the sketch and he was in the area and the DNA is potential, so we're gonna go talk to him.

• 30:32Garrett Moreland?

  Oh, I think it's, I mean, I guess there was no other way at this point that she had to go through all of that.

• 30:38Payton Moreland?

  Yeah, cuz like his DNA isn't the one in the system.

• 30:41Garrett Moreland?

  We need, this is when he needed chat GPT and. All that stuff. I mean, I'm sure it's more automated now, right? It has to be like it has to be be able to narrow down potential matches.

• 30:53Payton Moreland?

  Well, and I think as someone gets the family trees more connected, you're no longer doing that work because not only is she like sorting through people, she's building family trees. She's doing genealogy.

• 31:04Garrett Moreland?

  Crazy. It's so much work.

• 31:06Payton Moreland?

  So in September of 2023, detectives take a trip north to knock on Stefan's door. And remember, it had been almost 29 years since Robin's murder.

• 31:17Garrett Moreland?

  Oh, my gosh.

• 31:18Payton Moreland?

  So they're like, if he didn't do this, he's probably not going to be able to tell us what he was doing that Friday night. But their point of this trip is not even really to ask. They just want to collect a sample of his DNA. Cause they're like, we just want to compare it, cross it off our list, know if she was on, or if we need to keep going through these potential matches. And that's pretty much what happens, sort of. So they get to Stefan's house. They tell him, hey, we're investigating a cold case from the 90s. He doesn't really seem phased by it, and he does willingly offer up a cheek swab. In fact, after inviting them in, he doesn't really ask them any questions. He's not like,

• 31:57Payton Moreland?

  okay, what's the cold case? Who's the victim? He he's just chill. He shows zero interest. He's like, you want my DNA for this? They're like, yeah, he's like, okay. And the police are in and out within a matter of minutes. It's a bit strange because they're like, why didn't he ask any questions? But they're also like, if he has nothing to do with it and he knows he's innocent.

• 32:18Garrett Moreland?

  He's just like, whatever.

• 32:18Payton Moreland?

  He doesn't care. Like, take my DNA. I've never done anything wrong.

• 32:22Garrett Moreland?

  These days, it's like, oh, that's suspicious.

• 32:24Payton Moreland?

  Right. So they head back to the hotel that they're staying in, expecting to have a quiet night and return home in the morning to test the DNA. But that doesn't happen. A few hours later, one of the detectives actually gets a phone call and it's from Stefan.

• 32:43Payton Moreland?

  He says, hey, I'm actually at the police department. I'm trying to turn myself in, but the doors are locked. And this detective's like,

• 32:51Garrett Moreland?

  What?

• 32:52Payton Moreland?

  What are you turning yourself in for? And Stefan's like, murder? I used to think a camera or video doorbell was home security. And then I realized those can only record a break in. They literally can't stop one. And that is the difference with Simply Safe. When an intruder steps onto your property, Simply Safe's AI-powered cameras detect the threat and alert a live US-based agent who can then intervene to stop them before they even get into your door. Because it's not my house or valuables that I'm even worried about. It's a stranger getting anywhere close to the people I love. And I'm obviously taking this way more seriously now, which I already did, but now more than ever with a baby on the way. Like I said, unlike

• 33:36Payton Moreland?

  traditional security cameras, they only alert you after a break in. Simply Safe is built to stop it before it starts. And they have so many different options. If you haven't got on and checked it out, just do it, guys. If you've been waiting for a sign to get some security, this is it. Join the more than 6 million people who entrust Simply Safe with their home security. Right now, save 60% off with professional monitoring when you visit simplysafe.com/husband. That is an amazing code, guys. 60% off. That is simplysafe.com/husband. And when you order, again, just please let them know Murder With My Husband sent you. Write it in at the checkout

• 34:18Payton Moreland?

  survey. It just lets them know we sent you and it helps support the show. Simply Safe, ahead of crime and in real time.

• 34:26Garrett Moreland?

  All right, guys, we're jumping into an ad and it is the one and only Skims.

• 34:31Payton Moreland?

  We love Skims and I'm so excited. I get to talk to you about their loungewear. And pajamas. If you follow me on Instagram, I just posted, but I did get one of their sleep sets that's like a deep burgundy color. So cute, so rich, so soft. And then I also got a fleece set that's like this chocolate brown. So freaking cute. I love a good matching set and I love Skims. Again, the sleep set I got is the soft lounge sleep set. I always get asked like what exactly

• 35:10Payton Moreland?

  it is. So yes, the soft lounge sleep set, it has the perfect weight, the perfect stretch. The fabric will not irritate your skin. Honestly, I recommend Skims to everyone due to just the quality and the comfort that it brings. So go check out their cotton fleece sets or their sleep sets right now.

• 35:32Garrett Moreland?

  Shop Peyton's favorite lounge wear and pajamas at skims.com. After you place your order, be sure to let them know we sent you. Select podcast in the survey and be sure to select our show in the dropdown menu that follows.

• 35:45Payton Moreland?

  Now, keep in mind, these detectives have traveled up from Virginia. This is not their jurisdiction.

• 35:49Garrett Moreland?

  Oh my gosh, this is insane.

• 35:52Payton Moreland?

  So the detectives are like, hey, what station are you at? We'll come meet you. But in the meantime, you should probably hang up and call 911 and just notify the local authorities as well because this is not our jurisdiction. So we're also gonna need police from here. And that's what Stefan does. He calls 911. He's like, hey, I'm at the police station trying to turn myself in for a cold case.

• 36:14Speaker 02

  911, the address of the emergency. I'm actually here to turn myself in for a cold case crime. You're here to turn yourself in? Well, they collected DNA, so. Okay, what's your last name?

• 36:26Payton Moreland?

  But at this point detectives are wondering, why is he doing this? Like, it's not like he. Even acted scared. This is too easy. This is too easy. We haven't even run the DNA sample yet.

• 36:39Garrett Moreland?

  He probably just realized as soon as they took the DNA, he's like, it was only a matter of time.

• 36:44Payton Moreland?

  So they're kind of like, is this real? What's going on? They are actually very careful about how they phrase their questions to him. Once he's in the interrogation room because they want him to share most of the details to see if he's really telling the truth. Get a pretty strong case. So they're going to go in. They're not going to suggest like you sometimes see, they're really, really. Going to hold back so that there is no coerced confession. This was willingly given and we have proof because look at all of the details he gave that we did not offer up. So here's what he tells them. Back on November 20th, 1994, Stefan was a 22 year old soldier at Fort Worth in Arlington.

• 37:28Payton Moreland?

  He was drinking that night with a friend and had taken some efedrin. This is basically a strong cold medicine. And he said he took it and then he just decided in his head, you know what? I'm going to kill somebody tonight. He drove around the Lawrence's neighborhood and eventually picked out Robin's house.

• 37:47Garrett Moreland?

  Like they think it was drug induced?

• 37:49Payton Moreland?

  Well, I mean, it's only cold medicine.

• 37:52Garrett Moreland?

  Yeah.

• 37:52Payton Moreland?

  I mean, he's a little high, but he's not out of his mind tripping.

• 37:56Garrett Moreland?

  Yeah.

• 37:57Payton Moreland?

  So he tells police it was completely random, like Robin's house was a completely random pick. He had no idea who lived there or who he was going to kill. Once he got inside, which is so risky for a first time kill too. He told the police, quote, "There could have been 50 people in that house. I don't know. They could have all had guns and shot me dead. I just honestly wasn't even thinking about it." Stefan said an impulse had just come over him that he couldn't control. So he entered the house from the back, wearing a ski mask and leather gloves. He began walking through the house and that's when he found Robin in her primary bedroom. Now immediately upon seeing him, Robin jumped out of bed. She got down on her knees and started begging for her life.

• 38:41Garrett Moreland?

  Oh, that's so awful.

• 38:43Payton Moreland?

  But Stefan, who was a soldier, who didn't even have a speeding ticket, who had never been in trouble before, showed her no mercy. He stabbed her close to 50 times, using what he called his combat training that he had been learning. And he also said he noticed that there was a baby asleep in one of the bedrooms, and he chose to do nothing. He didn't make a anonymous 911 call to make sure that that baby got rescued. He didn't attack the baby. He fled into the night and let two-year-old Nicole fend for herself for the next two days until her mother's body was discovered.

• 39:26Payton Moreland?

  But Stefan shared something else that gave detectives confirmation. Said Robin had fought back hard. This is something they already knew about the case. But he even showed them a scar from that attack, where Robin had actually clawed him on the face so deep it scarred. And when detectives asked, okay, what did you do in the house? Like, where did you go? Did you go into the bathroom and use a towel to try and clean up? Because this is where they found his blood. He said he couldn't remember, but it was pretty possible that he did, seeing how bad the damage was on his body from her fighting. He very easily could have gone into the bathroom and used a towel to try to like, clean it up. So after he left that night,

• 40:10Payton Moreland?

  Stefan said he tossed the murder weapon into the Chesapeake Bay and headed back to the base as if nothing had happened. He took a shower. He tossed his bloody clothes in the dumpster and then never looked back and never killed again. Even when talking about it right now, though, with police, Stefan showed very little remorse.

• 40:31Garrett Moreland?

  Yeah, like, is he a... Psychopath?

• 40:34Payton Moreland?

  Well, he told detectives, he's like, I don't.

• 40:35Garrett Moreland?

  Because he have feelings?

• 40:37Payton Moreland?

  I.

• 40:37Garrett Moreland?

  Is he?

• 40:38Payton Moreland?

  Well, he's like, I don't really feel bad for the family. I don't know them. I didn't know her. She was a completely random stranger.

• 40:43Garrett Moreland?

  Yeah, that's quite a psychopath.

• 40:45Payton Moreland?

  He said, I actually like the only feelings I have about this crime are for my own sake, because he said, I knew like one day my personal freedom could be affected by it. And that's the only like feeling I've had about it is.

• 40:58Garrett Moreland?

  Oh, okay. So for sure, he's got some issues going on.

• 41:02Payton Moreland?

  So no, Stefan didn't turn himself into police because he felt guilty. Like, I finally got caught. This has been weighing on my shoulders. Police showed up. It actually kind of felt good to get this off my chest. Like, I did it. I'm here. No, that is not what happened. It was because he knew they had his DNA and he was like, eh, I mean, they're gonna get me. He had gone on to live the next twenty nine years blending in with society. He received awards for his service in the military.

• 41:29Garrett Moreland?

  Holy crap.

• 41:30Payton Moreland?

  He went to rehab. He got sober. He got married. He had two kids. He went back to school.

• 41:35Garrett Moreland?

  Oh, my gosh.

• 41:35Payton Moreland?

  He bought a home. He worked a job with a six-figure salary. He stole Robin's future and then instead went on to build his own and never kill again.

• 41:48Garrett Moreland?

  That's disgusting, honestly.

• 41:50Payton Moreland?

  And one of the most disturbing parts of that interview, though, was what he said about this monster inside of him, because detectives are like, hey, so this isn't really adding up on paper. Like, this is pretty unusual for what we see. And he's saying, I just have this monster in me. Like, there's a monster inside of me. And they're like, okay. And he says, quote,

• 42:10Speaker 03

  I'm married, have kids. I honestly believe that if it wasn't for my wife and my kids, I probably wouldn't be a serial killer.

• 42:19Garrett Moreland?

  So, I mean, honestly, similar to what I said, and if the chance presented itself again, he would have done it.

• 42:25Payton Moreland?

  But he just went a different direction in his life and never did it again.

• 42:29Garrett Moreland?

  Oh, my gosh, it's so sad.

• 42:30Payton Moreland?

  But he admits fully in this interview, like, it's in me. Like, I could still do it. Like, I could have been a serial killer. I just never, never.

• 42:39Garrett Moreland?

  Could you imagine being his wife or his kids?

• 42:41Payton Moreland?

  No.

• 42:42Garrett Moreland?

  Like, what?

• 42:43Payton Moreland?

  So after this confession, Stefan was arrested and charged with first-degree murder for killing Robin Lawrence. And of course, the police's first call was to Robin's family. I can't imagine how after twenty nine years, this call felt to them, like. You just rewoke.

• 42:59Garrett Moreland?

  Yeah.

• 43:00Payton Moreland?

  You're you just awoke something in them that they had probably spent years trying to find somewhere to put and then you but then they you know, at least they have an answer, but it's not at least because you just reopened a wound like the it's just a horrible thing.

• 43:15Garrett Moreland?

  So many, there's still going to be so many unanswered questions for them like, why? Why did you do it? Yada, yada, yada.

• 43:21Payton Moreland?

  Well, and I've heard so many different scenarios where families are happy to, you know, there's a I don't want to say happy, but there's a piece of them that feels a little better knowing what happened. There's families that are like, I wish you never would have told me I had finally gotten to a place where I could live my life and also accept what had happened. And now you've shaken it all up. So some of Robin's other family's members had actually lived in New York, not far from where Stefan had spent the last few decades of his life. They were literally living next to their family member's killer. And Robin's niece Lauren said some of her closest friends actually lived across the street from Stefan and his family. They had actually been by his house dozens of times.

• 44:06Payton Moreland?

  This is her niece. She had been by her aunt's killer's house dozens of times with no idea. And while this might have been a huge coincidence, there are other details that might not be. For instance, former FBI profiler Mary O'Toole says she doesn't think Stefan chose Robin at random that night, despite what he said.

• 44:28Garrett Moreland?

  So that's what I was gonna say. I was gonna say, one, I don't think this was random. Two, I promise this wasn't the first time he's thought about killing. He didn't just drink some medicine and go, oh, I want to kill someone. No, no, no. He's been thinking this for years. He's just lying to try to make himself look better because I mean, that's what they do. Like Peyton just said, he obviously has no feelings for anyone else except himself.

• 44:52Payton Moreland?

  Yeah, Mary says she thinks he's just trying to like minimize it.

• 44:56Garrett Moreland?

  Correct.

• 44:56Payton Moreland?

  Even though admitting to it and like admitting he's a monster, he's also like. Not trying to be like, oh, I stalked her and then I did this.

• 45:04Garrett Moreland?

  It's just crazy. I did it and then I never did it again.

• 45:06Payton Moreland?

  Yeah. She thinks he might have been actually watching Robin for some time, seeing how her family came and went. And she thinks this mainly because Ollie was out of the country on business when Stefan attacked. Had he been in the home, it's likely Stefan wouldn't have stood a chance. And he probably knew that. So what are the odds that the husband is out of town? He knows she's alone. But the real nail in Stefan's coffin was the results from his DNA swab. Forensic testing found it was a match with the blood found on the washcloth in Robin's bathroom. In fact, they said there was a one in seven million chance it wasn't his blood.

• 45:45Garrett Moreland?

  Okay.

• 45:46Payton Moreland?

  On April 15th, 2024, a grand jury indicted Stefan on first degree murder charges. The family desperately wanted to see the case go to trial, not just so that he would get the maximum sentence, but because they wanted his face to be plastered all over the news for the world to know what he had done. Now, unfortunately, a trial didn't happen. Six months after the indictment, Stefan pleaded guilty to the charges and his attorney fought hard to get him a lighter sentence. His attorney argued that back in the 90s, Stefan struggled a lot with alcohol and substance use disorders. He believed the military would change some

• 46:26Payton Moreland?

  of that, and then it didn't. Because the real issue was that Stefan had undiagnosed bipolar disorder, which he didn't realize until many years later. And I just want to get it right off, you know, just bipolar disorder, undiagnosed or diagnosed, does not make someone a murderer and is not an excuse for a murder. And that, according to his attorney, combined with the alcohol and the drugs he had taken that night was a dangerous weapon. She also told the judge that Stefan was dealing with diabetes and heart problems. So any sentence could mean that he might die in prison. When it came time for that sentencing hearing, Stefan Smirk had almost no one on his side. His children, 17 and 20 years old, had disowned

• 47:10Payton Moreland?

  him. His wife had divorced him. And meanwhile, Robin's family filled the courtroom with their love and support of her. At one point, Stefan turned to them, including Robin's grown daughter, Nicole, who he left that night.

• 47:26Garrett Moreland?

  Yep.

• 47:26Payton Moreland?

  And said, quote, All these years I have been a coward, living with guilt, shame and self hatred. It's my sincere hope that my arrest and subsequent incarceration brings some closure. So, complete 180.

• 47:40Garrett Moreland?

  I just think that he's saying what he thinks people want to hear. I just don't believe him. I'm sorry.

• 47:45Payton Moreland?

  He also, well, he's also at a sentencing hearing trying to act good in front of a judge.

• 47:50Garrett Moreland?

  Yep.

• 47:51Payton Moreland?

  He also apologized for the pain and suffering he caused the family. And after all was said and done, the judge gave Stefan life behind bars with all but 70 years suspended. Basically a fancy way of saying 70 years. And because the crime was committed 41 days before parole was abolished in the state of Virginia, the judge did allow him to be eligible for parole. The eligibility will happen in 2037 when Stefan is 65 years old, which he already had 30 years of freedom. Like, he lived a pretty good chunk of his life and he's already gonna be eligible for parole at 65

• 48:32Payton Moreland?

  when Robin doesn't get to finish her life. That just feels a little light to me.

• 48:38Garrett Moreland?

  Well, I mean, there's nothing they could have done because it wasn't abolished, like it's the way the laws were. But, I agree, 100%.

• 48:44Payton Moreland?

  That brings me back to a question I asked at the beginning of this episode, and that is, what makes a serial killer? I mean, if you're going by definition, it's a number of kills. But was Stefan telling the truth when he said he was able to suppress this monster living inside of him? All thanks to his family? Is that monster still there? Like, that doesn't just go away because you get caught. Is it living dormant? And now that his family is no longer there to support him and he gets out on parole, does he just give in to the monster that he already said was there? And if it weren't for his family, he would be a serial killer and now he doesn't have his family and could get out?

• 49:21Garrett Moreland?

  Here's the thing, I just don't, there's a lot I don't believe. I don't believe that he wouldn't have killed again before he died. I don't believe that he wasn't looking at like child pornography or other crazy things. I just don't, I don't think you can kill someone and admit you're a, you want to kill people and then just live a normal life. That's just not, that's not possible.

• 49:42Payton Moreland?

  Do you think he did kill and didn't get caught?

• 49:45Garrett Moreland?

  Exactly. A hundred percent. Those are the other, like those are the other scenarios.

• 49:50Payton Moreland?

  Unsolved cases. I mean, statements like, I am a serial killer who only killed once should not be taken lightly. If Stefan Smark is released before his life is over, does that give him another opportunity?

• 50:03Garrett Moreland?

  There's no way he is. Like, there's no way that he gets out on parole.

• 50:07Payton Moreland?

  Because when someone claims that their motive to kill was just simply to kill for enjoyment, there's no money, there's no hatred, there's no emotion, there's nothing. That is a different kind of monster than the people we typically cover. One that should be handled very carefully before releasing it back into the wild. And that is the murder of Robin Lawrence. I just, before we go, I just want to take a second to remember that Robin's family lived so many years, well, her, you know, her mom died without even knowing what happened to her. They lived so many years in this unknown and then

• 50:47Payton Moreland?

  just poured salt in the wound by it reopening and figuring out what had happened and hearing the details and then you know, the daughter now can look at someone who left her there. And I just want to have like a moment of thinking about them and love and grace and support for them, even if we're not in person with them. I think that this case actually brings up a lot of questions that we stumble upon in true crime. Especially when it comes to serial killers or people who kill out of enjoyment. What's going on in the brain? Can there be reform? And it's just like.

• 51:25Garrett Moreland?

  I mean, I don't know. I'm pretty harsh when it comes to this and I think Peyton and I might might have different opinions. I don't know, but I'm pretty harsh when it comes to this and it's, it's kind of ironic because I see some people that get mad at me for having this opinion. That's okay. Each their own, but I promise it would be a different scenario if someone killed someone in your family. Yeah, no.

• 51:45Payton Moreland?

  I'm just not, yeah, it's not something you can really for sure speak on.

• 51:48Garrett Moreland?

  You don't kill people. Like I, for me, it's just a hard line. No and ifs or buts. You kill someone, goodbye. And it'll always be like that. I don't care the scenario. Um, like I said earlier, I'm speaking out first degree and second degree murder.

• 52:04Garrett Moreland?

  Not necessarily talking about manslaughter or exceptions outside of that. I'm talking about cases specific to the one we just did.

• 52:13Payton Moreland?

  I think it's important to remember, people make mistakes every day and are ugly versions of themselves all the time. And making an ugly choice because of many different reasons, all these actual reasons going on in the human psyche, that could affect people is very different than taking someone's life. And that is an important distinction to understand and make. All right, you guys, thank you for listening to today's episode. And we will see you next time with another one. I love it.

• 52:44Garrett Moreland?

  I hate it.

• 52:45Payton Moreland?

  Goodbye.