What's Love Got to Do with It: “Couples’ Therapy,” Narcissism, and Open Relationships with Dr. Orna Guralnik

Is there anything more captivating than watching couples work through their deepest, messiest relationship drama on screen? Honestly, probably not, y’all. So today, we’re talking to the brilliant Dr. Orna Guralnik, the psychoanalyst behind the award-winning docuseries “Couples Therapy.” We’re getting into how the show came to be, what it really means to choose love, and, of course, hearing her hot takes on some juicy topics like gender roles, narcissism, and open relationships. Then she responds to some iconic Beyoncé,Taylor Swift, and Celine Dion lyrics about love—think she’s here for them, or nah? See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Keke Palmer?

  This episode is sponsored by the lovely people over at Airbnb. Are you celebrating love this month? Book an Airbnb for you and your boo and watch the sparks fly. Now, let's start the show.

• 0:16Keke Palmer?

  Hey, it's your girl, Kiki here. And today, we are diving into the world of relationships and therapy. And let me tell you, this is a topic that's close to my heart. We all know that relationships can be complicated, messy, and beautiful all at once. But what does it really take to make them work? We've got the incredible Dr. Orna Grolnick from the show Couples Therapy here for you. And we are going to ask her where the long-term relationships are for everyone and what it takes to make them work. So let's get into it because, baby, this is Keke Palmer.

• 1:16Keke Palmer?

  I cannot wait to find out what knowledge today's guest is going to drop on me. She's a brilliant clinical psychologist and psychoanalysis who has a way of helping people navigate the most complex emotional terrains. You might know her from the groundbreaking show Couples Therapy. I watched all the seasons. Where she helps couples unpack their deepest issues and build healthier, more authentic relationships. It is an absolute honor to have her with us today. Please welcome Dr. Orna Grolnick. So, Dr. Orna, it's so funny that I'm having you on the show because I actually DM'd you like a year or two ago and I said, "Girl, I need your help. Can I do a session with you?" If you go and look at your DMs online, you will probably laugh your butt off because I actually did DM you. It's insane.

• 2:01Speaker 01

  Sorry, sorry that I didn't respond. I don't, I'm not really on social media, so.

• 2:06Keke Palmer?

  And I'm sure you get tons and tons and tons of messages. But what I loved about you, you know, getting to know you through the show Couples Therapy, is seeing you be human. I think so often when it comes to therapists or psychoanalysis or any of the, you know, very knowledgeable people about human relationships, there's a thing that makes you feel separate from them or do they really get it? Or do they really understand what's going on? And I felt you did such a good job of showing that sometimes even you don't get it. And that even in your knowledge, the humility of you understanding that you may be being introduced to something new. It was just really awesome to see and showed why you can make such a good impact on your patients.

• 2:48Keke Palmer?

  And it was the first time that I actually ever realized that there was kind of like a therapist circle, um, which I thought was really interesting and cool that you guys, again, you know, it isn't that this person is just coming in and you're having a session with them and they're saying this is the way to do it and this is the only way. But no, they too are wavering what those ideas could be. They're talking to a collective and then they're coming up with the ideas on the best way to treat you. I think one of the first episodes, and it might have been the first season, I'm not exactly sure, but one of the couples that I saw you exercise at the most with was a couple that you maybe didn't relate to in terms of their racial dynamics, but it was a black couple. It was a black wife, a black husband, and it was not in session with them. But you said, "I think I need more information to understand how to best help and assist their different perspectives with dealing with something."

• 3:33Keke Palmer?

  And I just thought it was great on television because black is not a monolith. A husband and wife can both be black and have a separate feeling about what's happening at large. And that's when I was pulled into the show with you. And I was like, "Okay, she's on point, she's ready to help people. They're showcasing real dynamics on this show." So I just wanted to say that kudos to you for setting the stage for that. Um, but before we get into kind of that show and all those other details, how have you been doing and what have you been up to recently?

• 4:01Speaker 01

  Well, thank you for saying all of that. That actually means a lot to me. Um, how am I doing?

• 4:06Keke Palmer?

  What am I up to?

• 4:07Speaker 01

  Probably like many of us, I'm in quite a split. State of mind, I'm personally doing well. I'm enjoying my work a lot. I'm worried about our country. There's a lot of things to deal with nowadays. But other than all of that, I'm good.

• 4:24Keke Palmer?

  I love the honesty in the answer of that question. Because yeah, we can feel multiple things at once. We can be happy, but then we also can feel the just the oppression of the world at large. Um, so let's dive into Couples Therapy and the amazing dynamics of relationships. How did that show come about? And where were you in your career at the point that you started to do the show?

• 4:50Speaker 01

  I was very happy in my private practice and in my academic work. My main thing is, of course, I work with patients. I work with individuals and couples. Um, but I'm also an academic. So I write and I teach, but I mostly write and teach for an academic audience.

• 5:09Keke Palmer?

  Mm hmm.

• 5:10Speaker 01

  And through my Psychoanalytic Institute, the directors and founders of the show, Josh Kriegman and Elise Steinberg, um, somehow found me and asked me if I wanted to join them in creating this show. And it first sounded like, no, I'm not interested. But, um, we started talking and we really hit it off. And they kind of put the spell on me of like joining them in this crazy experiment.

• 5:46Keke Palmer?

  Ha, ha, ha.

• 5:47Speaker 01

  And that's how it all started.

• 5:49Keke Palmer?

  Wow. And, and just quickly with you, when you were talking about your psychoanalytic work, what perspective do you speak on that too?

• 5:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, you know, psychoanalysis, you know, it started, of course, with Freud and his contemporaries, you know, in the late 1900s, but it's evolved since. You started this conversation with talking about how analysts like to think of themselves as very separate, or therapists are usually very separate. So kind of traditional psychoanalysis started that way with like the analyst being a very remote kind of all-knowing figure that just kind of from afar treats their patients.

• 6:27Keke Palmer?

  Hmm.

• 6:28Speaker 01

  But the field has changed in many ways, has evolved in many ways, and I'm of the school that we call the relational interpersonal school, which sees the therapist or the analyst as part of what's going on in the room. We're not this all-knowing god-like figure, but we're a participant in the room while bringing our own background and our own biases and engaging with our patients in a way that we take responsibility and we try to be accountable for that.

• 7:00Keke Palmer?

  Yes.

• 7:01Speaker 01

  Um, that was a long answer.

• 7:02Keke Palmer?

  No, but I think that's important and that's exactly what I was, I know I was long-winded at the top, but I think I said all that for people that maybe don't know you, that haven't watched the show yet, or even if they have watched the show, maybe they're not me and that didn't impact them, but that was the main thing I noticed was, oh, she's being a real person and she's acknowledging what she could or couldn't know here and how that would not best service the patients. So the element of service, of how you wanted to be of service, was very strong. Um, you're talking about your private practice and then obviously your resistance to maybe doing a show where the practice is not so private. Did you feel that that affected your experience with the client? Um, you know, how they responded in the room or even how you responded in the room?

• 7:46Speaker 01

  Well, you know, there's a difference between the people that I work with on the show that they in advance kind of know that they're giving up all of their privacy.

• 7:57Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 7:57Speaker 01

  They're kind of agreeing to do something very radical, which is to do therapy in a non-confidential setting.

• 8:03Keke Palmer?

  Mm-hmm.

• 8:04Speaker 01

  There's the relationship with the couples that participated in the show and then there's my private practice and my private practice, my, my regular patients there, of course. They never thought that they would be seeing their therapist on TV. And that they will be learning all this like, personal information about their therapist and seeing their therapist work with other people. So that was kind of a big shock to my private practice. And in a way, I always say that um, my private practice patients are the ones that had to forgive me the most about doing the show.

• 8:38Keke Palmer?

  Interesting. Why if no one knew that you were their therapist? Why would, you know, they're the only ones that are in on the secret. So I'm curious of what their pushback was with that.

• 8:47Speaker 01

  Well, they, they did not sign up to working with a quote unquote celebrity therapist.

• 8:54Keke Palmer?

  Wow. That's very interesting. I'm not mad at it. I can understand it. But what I loved was that even though I was not in therapy with you, I felt therapized. I don't know if that's a word, but I felt therapized. So I felt like it was a gift to those that did not know of you or didn't have access to you, just as much as the ones that were on the show. Because what I learned watching the show, um, which is something I think I really needed to learn and accept as a young person, is that nothing and no one is perfect. And forgiveness is, is an integral part of any relationship. Not just the one with a romantic partner, but family, friends. And to get something long term, when you think about a long term commitment,

• 9:39Keke Palmer?

  um, your commitment to someone over time is I've, what I thought is the reward. Um, and I saw a lot of people thinking that they wanted to separate on the show. And, you know, I saw a lot of people feel like the show was helping them and some had helped and then they went backwards and then they went forwards again. But what was true to me is that you pick someone that makes you say yes. And then you just keep choosing to say yes, knowing that there's going to be something you learn on the other side about you and about them and about life. That is the idea of deciding to do something with someone. But then it also posed the other question, which I'm curious how you've experienced this in your clients is. Maybe I don't want to be a we.

• 10:24Keke Palmer?

  Now that I know that that's the responsibility of being a we, now I can actually say to me, maybe I just want to be a me.

• 10:32Speaker 01

  Well, first of all, I love the way you kind of summarized what the trajectory is and what we want to aim at, that we ultimately, we want to aim at compassion and understanding the other. And that's kind of the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.

• 10:48Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 10:49Speaker 01

  As far as maybe I don't want to be a we,

• 10:54Speaker 01

  it's a really good question and you can think about it from different perspectives. When I'm wearing the hat of a couples therapist and a couple comes to me to deal with their relationship, I feel like the unit of the couple is my patient and they've recruited me to help them as a couple. And my bias in that respect will be to try to help them stay together in the best way they can.

• 11:22Speaker 01

  Now, if I'm seeing individuals, or sometimes, it's not on the show, but sometimes a couple comes to me and says, we've actually decided to separate, but we want to know how to separate well. Or if it's an individual that tries to be in a certain relationship and finds that that's not the relationship for them, or like you're saying, maybe I'm not meant to be a we. I can get behind that too. It's, I don't have like a pre-programmed idea that we all have to live a certain way.

• 11:54Keke Palmer?

  Right.

• 11:56Speaker 01

  I mean, if anything, I do have a bias towards like, it's good to be in relationship and not to be an alone person in the world, but it can take many different forms.

• 12:05Keke Palmer?

  Yes, yes. I'm curious if there's something about, obviously, people are always evolving. But I'm curious if there's something that you've noticed, a quality or something about a person that lets you know that maybe they are more comfortable as a me rather than a we? Or if there's something that someone can see in themselves or understand that is already established within themselves, that's not opening them up to the concept of a we?

• 12:30Speaker 01

  I can think about a few different kind of examples of like when that comes to mind. For example, people that are deeply, deeply devoted to their work.

• 12:41Speaker 01

  And their work is their relationship and that's really what they want to be doing. And at least in certain phases of their life, a relationship can just get in their way. Um, or they don't have, they don't have enough re- you're laughing.

• 12:57Keke Palmer?

  I'm laughing because.

• 12:59Speaker 01

  Resonating?

• 13:00Keke Palmer?

  Yeah, it really does resonate with me.

• 13:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:02Keke Palmer?

  It really does resonate with me. Um, this is the funny thing about it is, I love community. I love family. I love romance. But I love my work. And my work to me is purposeful beyond me. It is the we.

• 13:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:21Keke Palmer?

  It is the we on so many levels.

• 13:25Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, you do so many things, right? You do so many things and you're, you're involved with so many different kinds of we's. So I, I would assume that you've got lots of very powerful relationships going on.

• 13:38Keke Palmer?

  Yes, and I often, like I said, when I was watching your show and thinking about the concept of commitment and being a we versus a me, it was a thing of what does that mean for me? And what does that mean in terms of the positive sacrifice that I could have to give up to be a we in that regard? And I say positive because it's still autonomous in that decision to make a commitment in that way. That may say, hey, I have to make more time for this, or I have to bring this level of balance in my life, or whatever it might be. Um, but it is something that I think about that has had to be a real realization for me. Um, in terms of understanding what it means to carry the responsibility of being in that kind of relationship.

• 14:23Keke Palmer?

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• 15:37Keke Palmer?

  On the show, you meet with a group of therapists, you know, that basically, like I was saying, that keep you guys on track. You share thoughts and things. And what are some blind spots that you think a therapist may have in a session that another therapist may help them with? They're common things when you're constantly talking and being in the rooms all the time? Okay.

• 15:57Speaker 01

  Lots of blind spots. You know, sometimes you get pulled into a particular emotional relational dynamic with your patient that you kind of hyper-fixate on one aspect of what they're going through. And then you don't think about other things that might be going on because you're just so absorbed in one part of what's going on for the patient. And then it's very useful to have a colleague say to you, hey, you're so busy, let's say with their relationship with their sibling, have you thought about how the grandparent that went through, you know, their house burnt down when they were, I don't know what, how that might be related to what's going on? Or, you know, you mentioned earlier, like racial issues.

• 16:42Speaker 01

  I mean, cultural racial dynamics. I can be hyper-fixated on one thing and not even think about how a certain aspect of the cultural dynamic is influencing what's going on. You know, I had, it's really interesting. I had, during our first season, this is quite some time ago, when I was working with Elaine and Deshawn. And I was very absorbed in their dynamic and felt like I understood them very well. But still, I brought in a black consultant to talk to me about what she's seeing. Am I missing something? And she watched a bunch of sessions and she was like, I don't have anything to say to you about the black couple, but in this other couple that were not black,

• 17:25Speaker 01

  you're completely missing a whole racial dynamic that's going on.

• 17:28Keke Palmer?

  Mm hmm.

• 17:30Speaker 01

  You know, it's it's

• 17:30Keke Palmer?

  What was the dynamic? Just to be clear, I'm curious.

• 17:33Speaker 01

  It was, I mean, it won't, it won't make complete sense, but it was like a particular kind of, um, it was an interracial couple and the male was not, was very guarded about expressing anger.

• 17:48Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 17:49Speaker 01

  Um, because they didn't want to perceived in a certain way.

• 17:52Keke Palmer?

  Mm hmm. Yeah, but that makes sense. And, and obviously race, culture, et cetera, that all plays into a part of how any one of us can act, you know? You know what I mean? So it makes total sense. But it's interesting because you're, you know, I guess you're hyper focused on making sure that you understood that, maybe even did step away and stop you from seeing that. I mean, that's human. That's very interesting, though. And, and like I said, that was something that I really loved about the show.

• 18:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, like there was one couple, a couple of seasons ago, Erica and Sean, where something about Sean's behavior was really kind of, to use a popular word, triggering to me. And making it difficult for me to actually empathize with him, which is very necessary for a therapist. And my colleague, Gayal, part of my group of colleagues, my in the supervision group, he was the one who could connect with Sean more empathically. He kind of immediately resonated with him and he really helped me have a breakthrough in my work with the couple. By repeatedly connecting to Sean, connecting, connecting, and finally helping me find an empathic link to him.

• 18:59Keke Palmer?

  Yeah. Something you brought up triggering, and it made me think about some of the therapy words that have gotten out of therapy's hands and into everybody's hands and mouths, unfortunately for us. Um, we hear a lot of narcissists and trauma bonding. And I'm, I'm curious first to know, have you ever seen an actual narcissist or just people with narcissistic traits? Or have you actually seen, or is it really that common for somebody to really be, you know, in a narcissistic disorder mind?

• 19:30Speaker 01

  Well, the way we as, as analysts, the way we use the term narcissism, it's definitely not the way popular culture uses it. I think popular culture uses it as a way of kind of pathologizing and saying someone is bad.

• 19:45Speaker 01

  Um, the way we use narcissism is as a certain kind of vulnerability in the psyche. When the self, I'm, I'm making a very vast generalization, but when the self is not nourished enough growing up or not seen enough, a person develops a certain kind of vulnerability or you could call it a certain kind of weakness of the self-structure that requires them to invest a lot of energy into themselves and kind of keep focusing on themselves or asking for reassurance because there, there's something kind of shaky about their self-structure. And it kind of functions like a vacuum that sucks in a lot of attention because of a vulnerability.

• 20:30Speaker 01

  And it doesn't have to be the entire way that a person shows up in the world, it can be in certain situations. And that's when we talk about the person showing up with a certain kind of narcissistic vulnerability. Now, there are certain people that you could say that those kind of wounds or scars are so powerful that most of the way they show up in the world is in a narcissistic way. And then you'd say that person has a narcissistic personality disorder. But um, I, I tend to shy away from these like intense diagnostic terms.

• 21:07Keke Palmer?

  Yeah, I, well, that's what I really want to talk about because I think we, we all have issues with understanding the concept of people changing, staying in something, knowing when to move on. And another thing that your show showcased is that there's a lot of pain in love. It doesn't mean that everybody should hurt you and that you should take bullshit or whatever. I didn't get that, but I did get that, that human beings are human beings and people are gonna hurt you. So I think there has to be a delineating factor that lets you know when this is worth sticking through or not. And you know, we all make the jokes on, I ain't gonna be my grandma or I'm saying no and I'm not sticking it through. It ain't the 1950s and, but it's, but, but then it makes you think, well, then what is it? What is the proper expectation?

• 21:52Keke Palmer?

  Because if somebody's always gonna hurt me, well, something's gonna have to give.

• 21:57Speaker 01

  Right. It's, it's a big question you're asking and a, and a very good one. If I had to like try to respond to that in a shorthand way, I'd say.

• 22:09Speaker 01

  It's a rare case that people get kind of addictive or addicted to negative cycles. Like, they can't break out of, let's say, a pattern of mutual hurt or mutual abuse. But most of the time, people actually really want to get better. People don't want to be mean to each other, or keep hurting each other, or disappointing each other. So the question is whether there's enough mobility within each person and between people. And, you know, you have to find the right angle to affect change. And if you find that, no matter what you or your partner are doing, you're really just repeating yourselves,

• 22:55Speaker 01

  maybe it's time to get out. But most of the time, you can find a way to really change a dynamic. People are very, as you said earlier, people are open to change. People are capable of change. And people are capable of bringing out different sides of themselves, depending on what they're presented with. Right? Each of us are different with different people.

• 23:17Keke Palmer?

  Yeah, and what's relative to us, what information that is there. That makes me also want to ask about what you speak to your patients about in terms of privacy. Because you said something earlier about the whole "we." And often, when I was thinking about the "we" and the "me" thing, it's like, you have a story that you tell about yourself in the world as the "me." And then if you get into a relationship, then there's a story that you guys now are telling together, united, as a "we." How that then plays into the security you all have feel in the relationship? I guess what I'm ultimately asking is, have you ever told your patients to not speak about the true dynamics of their relationship in public? And if there is power in that? You know, for instance, I'll throw out something that I have no judgments on it.

• 24:02Keke Palmer?

  But let's say it's an open relationship, but we don't tell people that. And the reason I think about it is because I'm thinking about the past and the present. I think nowadays, in the modern era, people speak so much about their relationships, the dynamics, what's happening, what's not happening. When we think about grandma and them, there was a lot of the same things going down that people didn't speak about. I'm wondering if there is power in not speaking about certain things? Or if there is more power in being transparent?

• 24:34Speaker 01

  So, wow, interesting question. I have never thought about it, but I'll think now. Um, I think there's power in each direction. I think privacy is a very important thing, and I often talk to people about the difference between like secrets and privacy. I think privacy and boundaries is a really good thing. It's a good thing for an individual, and it's a good thing for a couple to be able to maintain some semblance, some boundary around them and privacy where they're not just living for their audience.

• 25:06Keke Palmer?

  Hmm.

• 25:07Speaker 01

  So, there's a lot of, um, meaning to that. I also think that, um, if you're acting or living in a way that you feel shameful of, something's off, right? If you don't want people to know about what you're doing because it, something's wrong because you feel shame, fix what you're doing, right? There's a way in which like, living openly is a good thing, a healthy thing. You know, it makes me think about like, people that have to be in the closet because of like, homophobia, or, you know, like-

• 25:44Keke Palmer?

  Yeah, you're saying there's a difference between, "Look, this is some shit I don't want y'all to know, and this is some shit that I'm, I'm scared for y'all to know." You know what I mean? Like, you know, maybe, there's nothing wrong with me sticking, getting a bug out my nose, but I ain't gonna do it in front of you.

• 25:57Speaker 01

  Right. Right.

• 26:00Keke Palmer?

  Unless I have no other to turn. Um, but no, I totally, I totally do understand that. Yeah, I've always just wondered that because, again, I think that I see a lot of conversations online where we're speaking about our grandparents and how people held relationships in the past, and how women kept secrets or whatever. And even when I think about this one movie, Love and Basketball, there's a scene with the Sanaa Lathan character and Alfred Woodard, where Sanaa casts judgment on her mother um, for how she stayed in the marriage with her father who had maybe stepped out, or maybe he was, I don't even know if he stepped out, he just had ignored her, or they had not had the love that Sanaa had idealized love should be. And her mother was like, "Don't you dare." And kind of pretty much said, "This is my story. This is my marriage.

• 26:44Keke Palmer?

  I'm not a victim. I was a willing participant, and I love my husband, I love your father, and I love what we've built. And you could never understand." And I think that that is what we're seeing a lot. And then obviously, in the end of the movie, Sanaa Lathan's character did something that a lot of people- Hate now, which is she was the more mature one. And she said, I'm gonna choose us even if you're so afraid to. Which is something that I think, obviously, people traditionally don't, no longer want to see women have to be in the position of. So the reason I was asking about privacy versus transparency is because maybe women were always doing that.

• 27:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:20Keke Palmer?

  But, but we didn't know.

• 27:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:22Keke Palmer?

  And so, the privacy of how that looked, how much did that help or how much did that hurt us? And does that now lead us to having expectations in relationships that are not reasonable? Because maybe, it is always whoever knows, saying, I know. And I choose us, and I forgive you if you're too afraid not to, type of vibe. That makes sense what I'm saying.

• 27:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, and there are many ways to live life and, and it's, when you try to judge from one perspective or one ideology of what's a good life and, and apply it to another, it's not gonna work.

• 27:59Keke Palmer?

  Yes. A lot of conversations are happening around monogamy. I mean, you talked in Variety article about how there's a lot of cultural upheaval right now. What do you think, when you say cultural upheaval, what is that? In this, you know, context? And what do you think is the source of it?

• 28:19Speaker 01

  Well, it's a direct continuation from what we were just saying. I do believe that there are many ways to live life and things are changing all the time. People are figuring out, there are new pressures that are coming at us and in response to that, people are changing and figuring out new ways of what is a good relationship and what was a good relationship for a grandmother may not be a good relationship for you, which might include the question of monogamy. You know, I, I have a whole theory, I don't know if it's, if this is the moment here. But I have a whole theory about like, what's driving this whole question of monogamy now so, so fiercely? I think it has something to do with climate crisis.

• 29:04Speaker 01

  Oddly, bear with me. I think people are understanding that with the intensity of what's coming at us, as far as like the catastrophic events that are heading our way from climate, we're gonna need to understand that we depend on each other a lot more than we thought. And this idea that we can each live in a tiny little box, you know, husband, wife, and couple of kids and the dog behind a fence is not gonna work. I mean, we saw that already in the pandemic. I mean, we all depend on each other. People here depend on the people in China. And the pollution that we're emitting here will affect the people in Bangladesh.

• 29:46Speaker 01

  We depend on each other and we can't like focus on our tiny little units. And I think the younger generation is responding to that by trying out kind of more communal living, both literally living more in communal spaces, but also with the idea of non-monogamy and with like, in a way, sharing resources more and sharing the love more. And it's an interesting experiment with like boundaries and new ways of living. I mean, I'm older, so I'm learning. I'm learning from the younger generation, but I'm watching carefully.

• 30:26Keke Palmer?

  Yeah, well, we're learning from you too. And we all should be learning from each other. Like you said, the community aspect rings quite true to me. And I do feel like there's this impending doom that exists in our world, especially in pop culture, is something that we can't escape. But again, it's so interesting how everybody perceives it because somebody might say, well, I need to go out and see the world. I need to spread out more and I need to touch more. But then I do feel sometimes like I need to appreciate more the community that is around me and spend more time loving on those that I don't know how much time we get to have with. So it's very interesting how it can push and pull us in any direction when we think about the fact that we just have a short amount of time.

• 31:09Keke Palmer?

  You know, but again, how that is socially demonstrated is just so unique.

• 31:19Keke Palmer?

  Okay, so I know y'all caught last night's premiere of The Bachelor, right? Didn't I tell you there'd be a quiz? Look, it's fine, because if you didn't, I'll let you hop on over to Hulu to get caught up. Now that that's out of the way, didn't I tell y'all that man was fine and genuine and kind-hearted and really sweet? And did I mention "fine"? This is the sort of television that I live for. The romance, the drama, watching all these beautiful people gallivant and coveort all over the mansion. Oh, my heart's fluttering just thinking about it. Will Grant choose Savannah, the blonde bombshell from Virginia? Or Kelsey, the gorgeous goddess from Brooklyn? Or any of the other beautiful and intelligent women vying for his love?

• 32:03Keke Palmer?

  Y'all know I have no horse in this race, but I am locked in. Listen, if there was ever a time for a wine-fueled watch party with the besties, it's Mondays at 8/7 central, darling. New episodes of The Bachelor air every Monday at 8/7 central on ABC. And as always, you can choose to stream it on Hulu, too. Now where's my rose? Esther Perel talks about how affairs aren't necessarily signs of a broken relationship, but they're often more about reconnecting with a part of ourselves. And not in how you necessarily feel about her quote, but I'm curious of how you see infidelity or cheating and any of these kinds of things and their role in a relationship?

• 32:48Speaker 01

  I think Esther Perel did an amazing job of making all of us rethink affairs. We used to, like, the more classical, traditional way of thinking of affairs was only as an attack on the marriage or an attack on the relationship. It's only a destructive act. And it can be very destructive. It can betray trust. It can ruin a relationship. On the other hand, there are other ways to think about it. It's not all the same. Sometimes people reach out of a relationship, indeed not as a communication to their partner, but they are indeed seeking something that...

• 33:33Speaker 01

  Is hidden in themselves, or the relationship is kind of too constricting and not allowing certain thing to develop.

• 33:42Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 33:42Speaker 01

  They have to break out of it in order to come back into the relationship in a fuller form. Or to challenge something that is stuck in the relationship. So it can be not only destructive, but it can have constructive elements or creative elements. And I think Esther Perel did a great job of like making us all rethink what that means.

• 34:05Keke Palmer?

  Yeah, I mean, I think it's the same thing in life. We need any struggle or trial or tribulation is an opportunity for a new door to open if you so choose it and see fit for it. Have there ever been a situation with your couples where you felt like you guys need to stop and let this go now, that you just truly felt? No, no, no, you're not right.

• 34:29Speaker 01

  Yes, rare, very rare. I'm an optimist and I'm, as I said earlier, I'm sort of committed to the ideal of like a good relationship. But as we were saying earlier, sometimes a couple is too committed to, in a way, mutual destruction.

• 34:54Speaker 01

  Whether they repeat cycles of hurting each other or repeat cycles of like, you know, people can get off on abuse. They can get off on discharging kind of bad feelings on the other person and not have enough, I don't know, goodwill to pull themselves out of that kind of cycle. And in that case, I don't want to be part of it, and I don't think they should continue with that. I don't think that's a good way to spend your time on earth. As you said earlier, our time is limited. And I don't think it should be spent by hurting each other. So that's the situation. I will say to a couple, you're just ruining each other. This is, I don't want to be part of this.

• 35:39Keke Palmer?

  Yeah, yeah. When it comes to having couples, whether they are gender non-conforming or they are hetero-normative in their gender roles.

• 35:48Keke Palmer?

  Have you, how do you deal with um helping or assisting them in resisting that in their relationships? The reason I say that is because I don't feel that they, I've never been a gender role person. I don't believe that holding ourselves to particular gender ideologies help us. You know, like I gotta be in the kitchen, you gotta be under the car. Like, I feel like it's really tiring, you know what I mean? Even if I do identify as a woman, I don't want to be put into a box, essentially is what I'm saying. And I felt growing up, watching that was what I saw. My dad, he would do most of the sewing and cooking and cleaning. And my mom would, you know, she not, wasn't necessarily under a car, but she was not necessarily doing what people thought a quote unquote woman should do. She was loud, she was always cussing and doing all this stuff, you know?

• 36:33Keke Palmer?

  So I'm curious for you, how much does that stress relationships out? When they are, you know, holding themselves to specific gender roles? But then also, how sometimes maybe it helps if, for some people, when they do uh act in those particular roles? I'm just curious.

• 36:50Speaker 01

  I resonate very much with what you're saying. Um, I think, again, I'm gonna do this kind of both and, but um, which you just did too, but I think generally, I mean, you see, you seem to see things from all these different perspectives, which I resonate with. But um, I think generally, gender roles and stereotypes and gender ideologies are incredibly restrictive and they kind of, in a way, suffocate people's ability to express themselves more fully.

• 37:25Keke Palmer?

  Oof, yes.

• 37:26Speaker 01

  Um, really, I, I, I generally think, you know, to, to quote Judith Butler, I think gender is mostly a performance. It's a way in which we learn how to perform a certain kind of what it means to be man, woman, whatever. Um, on the other hand, sometimes it's useful to have these kind of roles and stereotypes just to know how to set expectations and to divide the labor.

• 37:56Speaker 01

  You know, you don't want everyone to do everything.

• 37:59Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 37:59Speaker 01

  If one person is really good at going under the car and another person is good at like cooking, great. And if it happens to go along with like gender stereotypes, great. You know, I have couples that function very well when one of them is the breadwinner and the other one is the homemaker. Doesn't have to be completely gendered, but sometimes it works great for them. For other people, it's like, it's suffocating. It's restrictive. It's it's a false promise.

• 38:29Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 38:30Speaker 01

  It doesn't bring happiness.

• 38:33Keke Palmer?

  Yeah, I love that. I think like what you said, it's so restrictive and you know, encouraging the opportunity for individualism, but also just what comes naturally to you personality wise.

• 38:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 38:43Keke Palmer?

  You know, why not just leave it there? Um, Oona, it's been amazing chatting with you. I literally could talk to you forever. But before I let you go, I'd love to play a game with you. Now, this one's called Here For It Or Not. So I'm gonna read you some popular song lyrics about love. And you tell me whether you're here for the attitude towards the love conveyed in the lyrics or not. Make sense?

• 39:09Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 39:11Keke Palmer?

  Okay. You must not know about me. I can have another you in a minute.

• 39:18Speaker 01

  Not.

• 39:24Keke Palmer?

  Okay, why not? Why not? I think I have an idea, but I just have to ask.

• 39:29Speaker 01

  Because I don't think people are interchangeable and I don't think people should treat that, treat each other that way.

• 39:34Keke Palmer?

  So you don't think people are irreplaceable?

• 39:39Keke Palmer?

  Okay, second question. Every breath you take, every move you make, I'll be watching you.

• 39:46Speaker 01

  I know that song.

• 39:49Keke Palmer?

  It's a classic. It is a classic.

• 39:52Speaker 01

  Um, I'm here for it with a caveat.

• 39:56Keke Palmer?

  Okay.

• 39:57Speaker 01

  I think idealization is a beautiful thing. But I think eventually it's good to know the real person and not just be fixated on them in this way.

• 40:09Keke Palmer?

  And that's what I've been trying to figure out all my life, Oona. Every time somebody just meets me, they just so obsessed with me and I'm just like, stop, stop, stop, stop, stop. No, I'm kidding.

• 40:17Speaker 01

  I think you should say, I'll enjoy this for a while. Great. But eventually let's get to know each other.

• 40:25Keke Palmer?

  Wow, that's interesting. It's interesting because I do think we live in a world now where it's not even about celebrity or entertainment. Everybody just feels like they already know you online. They love your Instagram page. They love you. You know what I mean? So idealizations and idealizing is really a real thing, you know? I'm joking, but it does, it does happen, no matter who you are.

• 40:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:47Keke Palmer?

  Okay. I'm everything I am because you loved me. This song. I'm everything I am because you love me.

• 40:59Speaker 01

  Okay. Am I supposed to give a speech at?

• 41:05Keke Palmer?

  Here for?

• 41:06Speaker 01

  I have a mixed reaction as usual. Sorry, I'm just constantly doing both and.

• 41:11Keke Palmer?

  I love it. Nuanced.

• 41:13Speaker 01

  I think it's, I think love has the capacity to deliver so many good things. I think being loved is, I wish it on everyone on earth to feel deeply loved.

• 41:29Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 41:30Speaker 01

  On the other hand, it's also important to be who you are, independent of someone else delivering the package of love.

• 41:41Keke Palmer?

  Yeah. Yeah, I couldn't agree more. And I also feel like the great thing about that song, when I hear it, I don't even always think romantic love. I think also about my parents, like.

• 41:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:52Keke Palmer?

  I'm everything I am because you loved me. You know what I mean? There's something that to me that also feels universal about that love. Um, okay, I'll do this one as the last one. He's so bad, but he does it so well. I can see the end as it begins. My one condition is say you'll remember me, standing in a nice dress, staring at the sunset.

• 42:15Keke Palmer?

  Say you'll remember me, standing in a nice dress, staring at the sunset. That girl can write.

• 42:22Speaker 01

  I know that song.

• 42:28Speaker 01

  I'm in for that as a temporary thing.

• 42:33Keke Palmer?

  Yeah, yeah. You know, there is something about it that seems aware, which is what I love.

• 42:39Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 42:40Keke Palmer?

  It's not like I'm a fool and I don't know what's going on. It's like, look, he bad. I know he does it well. Like, I can see it's gonna end, but I'll do this if we make it last for the moment we have it. And that's pretty fab.

• 42:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:52Keke Palmer?

  I love that. I love that.

• 42:54Speaker 01

  I'm in for that. Yeah.

• 42:55Keke Palmer?

  Honor, you are amazing. I've had a blast talking with you and learning more about you.

• 43:01Speaker 01

  I've had a blast. Thank you.

• 43:03Keke Palmer?

  I have one more question. Are you, what, what sign are you?

• 43:05Speaker 01

  Uh, Aquarian.

• 43:07Keke Palmer?

  Oh, one, you know what? The Aquarian and Virgo match is so good because all we do is just talk about our feelings and our deepest, darkest places in our minds. It's just like conversation after conversation. So, uh, thank you again.

• 43:20Speaker 01

  Thank you for the amazing questions, Kiki. Like, really. Wow. Yeah, this was a trip.

• 43:26Keke Palmer?

  Yay, I'm so glad.

• 43:30Keke Palmer?

  The way that Honor breaks down the complexities of relationships and therapy blows my mind. My biggest takeaway is that it's all about communication and understanding. Two things that sound simple, but can be so tough to master. With the right tools and guidance, we can all get there. And honestly, I'm here for that. So let's keep the conversation going and meet me back here next week, okay? Because you know it's your girl.

• 44:04Keke Palmer?

  Enjoy Baby This is Keke Palmer on the Wondery app, wherever you get your podcasts, and now on YouTube where you can watch full episodes. Subscribe to the Wondery channel on YouTube and don't miss any episodes. You can listen to Baby This is Keke Palmer early and ad-free on Wondery Plus. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts.

• 44:28Keke Palmer?

  Baby This Is Keke Palmer is hosted and executive produced by me, Keke Palmer. Lucas Segal is our post-producer. Music supervisor is Scott Valesquez. Our original theme song was written and performed by me, Keke Palmer. For Team Kiki, my producer is Sharon Palmer. For Wondery, our managing producer is Olivia Fonte. Our producer is Tristan McNeil. Senior producers are Lizzie Bassett and Candice Manriquez-Bren. Our executive producers are Dave Easton and Marshall Louie.