Sojourner Truth: American abolitionist, suffragist, preacher

Greg Jenner is joined in 19th-Century America by Dr Michell Chresfield and comedian Desiree Burch to learn all about abolitionist and suffragist Sojourner Truth. Born into slavery in a Dutch-speaking area of New England, Sojourner Truth fought to free herself and then others, becoming one of the best-known abolitionist activists in America. She even succeeded in freeing her son, making her the first Black American woman to win a court case. A devoutly religious woman, Truth felt that God had called her to travel the country, preaching and advocating for the end of slavery, women’s rights and universal suffrage. Along the way, she rubbed shoulders with abolitionists like Frederick Douglass, and politicians including Abraham Lincoln himself. This episode tells the story of her incredible life, beliefs and fight for justice, and even examines the true story behind her famous “ain’t I a woman?” speech. If you’re a fan of inspirational activists, courtroom drama and questionable cults, you’ll love our episode on Sojourner Truth. If you want more from Desiree and Michell, check out our episodes on Harriet Tubman and Josephine Baker. And for more abolitionist history, listen to our episode on Frederick Douglass. You’re Dead To Me is the comedy podcast that takes history seriously. Every episode, Greg Jenner brings together the best names in history and comedy to learn and laugh about the past. Hosted by: Greg Jenner Research by: Madeleine Bracey Written by: Madeleine Bracey, Emmie Rose Price-Goodfellow, Emma Nagouse, and Greg Jenner Produced by: Emmie Rose Price-Goodfellow and Greg Jenner Audio Producer: Steve Hankey Production Coordinator: Ben Hollands Senior Producer: Emma Nagouse Executive Editor: James Cook

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Greg Jenner?

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• 0:34Speaker 02

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• 1:08Speaker 03

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• 1:14Greg Jenner?

  Hello and welcome to You're Dead to Me, the Radio 4 comedy podcast that takes history seriously. My name is Greg Jenner and I'm a public historian, author and broadcaster. And today, we are strapping on our sturdiest walking boots and hiking across America to learn about renowned 19th century abolitionist, orator and civil rights activist, Sojourner Truth. And to help us, we have two very special guests. In history corner, she's an assistant professor in African-American history at Cornell University. Her research focuses on Black and Indigenous histories, including the history of racial formation and identity in America. And you might remember her from our previous episodes of this show about Harriet Tubman and Josephine Baker. It's Dr. Michelle Cressfield. Welcome back, Michelle.

• 1:54Speaker 04

  Thank you for having me. I'm so happy to be back. The gang is back together.

• 1:58Greg Jenner?

  It is. A sort of series one reunion, in some ways. It's lovely. And in comedy corner, she needs no introduction. She's a comedian, actor and writer. You'll have seen her all over the TV, on Taskmaster, Frankie Boyle's New World Order, the horn section TV show and Too Hot to Handle. And you'll know her from this very podcast, from many, many episodes, including recent highlights, Pythagoras, What a Dude, and the history of Broadway musicals. It's your Dead to Me superstar, Desiree Birch. Welcome back, Desiree. Thank you so much.

• 2:25Speaker 05

  But this is like a series one reunion. I feel like they should do a behind the music on us. You know, none of your young listeners know what that is, but you know what I mean? The inside documentary on podcasts, although I guess podcasts are already a kind of an insider. Anyway, you know what I mean?

• 2:43Greg Jenner?

  Desiree, you and Michelle have previously covered Harriet Tubman and Josephine Baker. Now, Harriet Tubman, obviously an abolitionist, a very famous woman in American history. Are you excited to be back for more abolitionist history? What are your emotions when you hear the word Sojourner Truth?

• 2:57Speaker 05

  She's one of the big ones. Do you know what I mean? It's like, and it's also, she's one of the big ones that you learn about so early on. And then everyone's like, what do you know about Sojourner Truth? You're like, she's dope, dude.

• 3:11Speaker 05

  You know, and then you have to separate all the, you know, because you're like, okay, you know, Harriet Tubman did more of the gun wielding. Sojourner Truth did a lot of like the speaking and stuff like there's stuff that she did that I vaguely remember, but like, I'm excited to find out the cool biopic. Biopic, biopic? I don't know how we say that word.

• 3:30Greg Jenner?

  Biopic for me, but yeah, absolutely.

• 3:31Speaker 05

  Yeah, I think it's biopic, but some people say biopic and it sounds like a, it sounds bionic. It sounds like a.

• 3:37Greg Jenner?

  It sounds like an eye condition. I'm biopic. I can't see out of my left eye. Yeah, I don't know.

• 3:41Speaker 05

  Yes, or I see out of both eyes, but not the way you think.

• 3:44Greg Jenner?

  So what do you know?

• 3:51Greg Jenner?

  This is the So What Do You Know? This is where I have a go at guessing what you, our lovely listener, might know about today's subject. And I think American listeners are going to immediately have a Desiree response of, I know stuff. Hang on, do I know stuff?

• 4:03Speaker 05

  Do I know any?

• 4:04Greg Jenner?

  Perhaps it's a, it's a childhood memory coming back. Outside of the States, I think probably less familiar name. She's perhaps most famous for the quote, ain't I a woman? Which has been used by feminist activists for years, including by bell hooks for her debut book title. But there are no big movie biopics, biopics, whatever we're calling it. There are no big TV dramas. If you go on IMDb, you're not getting much back, which is quite surprising. So what was Sojourner's journey? How did she go from enslavement to crusading campaigner? And was ain't I a woman even her line? Let's find out. Right, Dr. Michelle, we'll start at the beginning. When and where was Sojourner Truth born? And I'm presuming that wasn't her name at birth.

• 4:46Speaker 04

  That is correct. So the woman that we will come to know as Sedorna was actually born Isabella Baumfree. And while there is no exact date for her birth, we know that she was born around 1797 in Ulster County, New York, which is a rural area about two hours north of New York City. Isabella was the youngest of 10 or 12 children born to the enslaved couple James and Elizabeth. And she was nicknamed Belle. And the young Belle was enslaved on a northern farm. Unlike the southern plantations that pervade historical lore, northern slavery was much more small scale. Most people owned one or two enslaved people who labored on small scale farming or domestic work. So although slavery was relatively small in scale in this area,

• 5:29Speaker 04

  northern slavery in New York State slavery in particular, where Isabella will be held, was very central to the international slave trade. So her early life, she's on a farm, she's owned by a family who owns about six or seven people, which makes that family very wealthy and notable for the time. So this is like the milieu in which, you know, she begins her life.

• 5:50Speaker 05

  So like, was it that southern slavery was more industrial and northern slavery was more sort of personal for like moneyed families? Why are there double-digit number slaves in southern plantations, but like only a handful in the north?

• 6:06Speaker 04

  Actually, Isabella's birth date is very significant because it's the year that the cotton gin is invented. And it's the cotton gin that really allows southern slavery to take the shape that it does. Because it allows this kind of mass cultivation of cotton, which will revolutionize the industry and require much more human labor to cultivate those crops. Northern slavery by comparison, you do have in the early years, right, of the, you know, the 1600s, people are definitely growing crops. But by the time that Isabella is born, it's very much shifted to where it's much more skilled labor, where you might see enslaved labor being deployed in homes. You see at the time that she's born, a real kind of shift, right,

• 6:49Speaker 04

  and the kind of power of slavery in the United States, but also the ways in which slavery will become to look Very different between the two regions.

• 6:58Greg Jenner?

  That's fascinating. Desiree, do you know what language Isabella grew up speaking?

• 7:02Speaker 05

  Oh, yeah, because it's New York. So, so Dutch, right?

• 7:07Greg Jenner?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 7:08Speaker 05

  Yeah, because there's so much, there's so much weird Dutch stuff in New York that you're like, huh? Yeah, I mean, New Amsterdam.

• 7:18Greg Jenner?

  Dutch as her primary first language. And you said 10 siblings, possibly 11 siblings, we're not sure. She's one of 12 or 10. So the parents have been enslaved, the children are enslaved. And the person who enslaves them is Colonel Johannes Hardenberg. And you said he's wealthy. What happened when he died?

• 7:35Speaker 04

  So when the Colonel was alive, the parents were allowed to basically farm on a small scale in a conditions that we would liken to sharecropping, which actually doesn't really take formation till later. But essentially, Elizabeth and James live on their own in a cottage where they farm a small tract of land that was rented from the Hardbergs. And in exchange from that land, they would have owed them labor, but also credits towards whatever it cost to cultivate that tract of land. We could conjecture that possibly at some point in time, that the parents could have been able to purchase that land outright. But those dreams are really dashed when he dies and his son takes over.

• 8:16Speaker 04

  And the son is really trying to make money. And that involves selling the young Isabella away at the age of nine. So her parents are frequently depressed, going into bouts of kind of emotional hardship because many of her siblings are sold away. So when Isabella grows up, she only knows her brother. And so it's this constant fear that our parents are going to have that, that their children will be sold away. And this happens when Isabella is nine.

• 8:43Speaker 05

  Just one by one, they all kind of get sold off to a place. Yeah, I mean, it is really, really dark. Like, once your first kid is sold off, it's like constantly waiting for the next shoe to drop, both for the parents and for the kids of like, when am I going to get pulled away? Like, I'm sure after the first one or two, then you're just preparing for the worst constantly and waiting for it. And what does, you know, I mean, we talk about anxiety now.

• 9:07Greg Jenner?

  Yeah.

• 9:08Speaker 05

  You know what I mean? There was no wellbutrin. There was no counselling, you know? And like, yeah, and no one to talk to about the fact, you know, you just had to, anyway. It's the worst. It sounds terrible.

• 9:19Greg Jenner?

  It's a horrible, horrible childhood. And she was sold to an English-speaking family, the Neelies. And she didn't, she didn't speak English.

• 9:25Speaker 05

  Were they dicks about it, though?

• 9:27Greg Jenner?

  Well, you know. I imagine they weren't hugely supportive, being a slave-only family.

• 9:32Speaker 04

  Right, that's correct. So she's sold for $100 alongside a flock of sheep. And the Neelies are an English-speaking family. And Isabella only spoke Dutch. And so she had a hard time, as you might imagine. And so she can't comprehend the instructions given to her. And on top of the language barrier, the Neelies are generally cruel people. And they make life difficult for the young Isabella. And she faces violent and cruel punishments that she would later recall during, you know, in her later life. And bear the marks of this abuse on her body for a long time.

• 10:05Speaker 05

  Oh, my God, how weird. Some English-speaking people were weird about somebody else not speaking their language?

• 10:11Speaker 04

  Right.

• 10:12Speaker 05

  Being like, what's this weird?

• 10:13Speaker 04

  Right, but her father, so Isabella's father, he is an older man. And he is some distance from his daughter after the sale. But he doesn't lose track of her. And this makes it very different than the relationship that he's able to have with his other children. So he travels a distance and actually implores the Neelies to sell Isabella.

• 10:32Greg Jenner?

  Oh.

• 10:32Speaker 04

  And so she's sold again in 1809 to a tavern keeper called Martinus Schreiber. And she spends about 18 months with the Schreivers, where she works at an inn. She makes beer, she picks herbs, she fishes, she farms. And she would claim that it's the Schreivers who taught her to curse, which is a very interesting development for a woman who would be known for her piety and religious devotion.

• 10:57Speaker 05

  If you are going to learn English, learn the important stuff first.

• 10:59Greg Jenner?

  Yeah. Start with the swear words.

• 11:02Speaker 05

  Anytime you learn another language.

• 11:04Greg Jenner?

  And then in 1810, Isabella was sold again for $175. Who is she sold to this time?

• 11:10Speaker 04

  She's sold to John and Sally Dumont. And she would spend the longest time of her enslavement with the Dumonts, about 17 years in total. So she arrives around the age of 12, roughly, and she's there until about the age of 30. And it's during her time with the Dumonts that Isabella would do farm work for John, but she also performed housework for Sally. And so she gains a reputation for the hard work that also characterized her father. And she also has a stunning physique and figure. She's, you know, just under six feet tall. She's a very tall, statuesque woman. So she's doing the work of several people, which really gains her the kind of compliment and admiration of John Dumont.

• 11:52Speaker 04

  And she begins to care very much about how Dumont feels about her. And that is in stark contrast to her feelings about Sally, who she resents more so and where Dumont might praise Isabella and her work ethic. Sally is a lot more critical.

• 12:08Greg Jenner?

  So, I mean, that's a strange dynamic, I suppose, that she's, she's there for nearly 18 years and she's fond of the man who's enslaved her. That's, that's complicated stuff, Desiree, isn't it?

• 12:21Speaker 05

  Yeah, but obviously, everybody's experience is relative to their, you know, context and circumstances. So if all you've done is grown up enslaved and you are, you know, like, obviously, you've been put into, hopefully, a better position than you were before with a different family that was really horrible. And if somebody's now giving you respect for your work, all the while, there's someone right next to you who's sucks, like, everybody else sucks, so that you're kind of like, okay, well, that's something. At least someone is seeing some part of my humanity.

• 12:52Greg Jenner?

  Michelle, we get a marriage for Isabella, or Belle.

• 12:58Greg Jenner?

  Who is she married to? And is it her choice? How does this work?

• 13:01Speaker 04

  So she is actually forced to marry another enslaved man owned by the Dumont family called Thomas. But interestingly enough, this is not the First man that she falls in love with. She actually falls in love with a young man named Robert, who was owned by a neighboring family. And Robert and Isabella very much loved each other. But Robert's owner did not want him with Isabella. And Robert actually defies his enslaver and goes to see Isabella, and he is beaten within an inch of his life, which really kind of breaks his his spirit to continue to kind of disobey. And so that relationship ends, which allows Isabella to be free to partner with Thomas. We don't know a lot about Thomas,

• 13:45Speaker 04

  but they have, you know, a general affection for one another, and they have five children together. Diana, Peter, Elizabeth, Sophia, and a fifth unknown child.

• 13:54Greg Jenner?

  In 1826, Desiree, something important happens in Isabella's life, in many lives, actually. Do you want to guess what it is, or maybe you know what it is? 1826 in New York's history?

• 14:04Speaker 05

  Ugh, I don't know if there's any, if there's like a state thing about slavery or something that happens. Because, okay, because that's going to come to the South later, but like it comes to the North earlier. So I don't know if they abolish slavery or if they change the rules to make it better or something.

• 14:20Greg Jenner?

  Yeah, I mean, I love the way you figured that out.

• 14:23Speaker 05

  There's, I don't, it's just trying to figure out what's the window of history, you know, because you like know the like cutoff date, and then like there's like a later real one. And then you're like trying to figure out what happened in the middle. So, yeah, yeah.

• 14:34Greg Jenner?

  Yeah, bang on. Michelle, 4th of July, 1827, which then comes into act in 28.

• 14:40Speaker 05

  That's the only date we ever do anything in America.

• 14:42Greg Jenner?

  4th of July is a good date to do things.

• 14:43Speaker 05

  All history happens on one day, one day a year. We'll get it all sorted out. Everyone's signing away.

• 14:49Greg Jenner?

  Yeah, Michelle, the state of New York abolishes slavery or what is the definition?

• 14:54Speaker 04

  Yes, that's absolutely right. Desiree Burchie remained my best student.

• 14:58Speaker 05

  Thank you. Oh, my God, that's all I've ever wanted to hear in my life, Michelle. Thank you. Continue.

• 15:02Greg Jenner?

  Official Cornell degree for you, Desiree. There you go.

• 15:04Speaker 05

  Amazing. Good, good. I'm actually going to not have to pay for this one. This is so.

• 15:10Speaker 04

  Yeah, no, she's racking up the degree. She's a credentialed woman. But to get back to your point, you know, Isabella gets her freedom, but it's not an easy feat. So in 1799, New York State passes the Gradual Emancipation Act. And according to the Act, children born to enslaved women after July 4th, 1799, are born free but are required to serve a period of indentured servitude, ending at 28 for men and 25 for women. And they do this because state leaders were very concerned about the state instantaneously losing its labor force, right? And so they want to transition away from slave labor. In 1811, the state of New York announces that enslaved people born before 1799 will be free on July 4th, 1827.

• 15:56Speaker 04

  But it retained the provision of the 1799 Act for children born after 1799. Essentially, Isabella is poised to be free, but not her five children.

• 16:07Greg Jenner?

  Oh.

• 16:08Speaker 04

  Yeah, right?

• 16:09Greg Jenner?

  That's heartbreaking. And also presumably that means the children could be taken away from her still.

• 16:14Speaker 04

  Right, absolutely. And so because of the Act, the children are basically going to be laborers, right, for the owner of the mother, right, until they reach, you know, 28 for the young men, 25 for the women. Isabella tries to bargain for her own emancipation in 1826, and an early emancipation, which Dumont grants on the condition that Isabella would, quote, "do well and be faithful." And so if she does well and does her work, he agrees to free her one year early. So on July 4th, 1826. However, when that date arrives, Dumont went back on his word and argued that Isabella...

• 16:53Greg Jenner?

  Oh, who needs to be faithful?

• 16:54Speaker 04

  Not Dumont. And so one of the reasons that he makes this claim is that she has an injury. She hurts her hand. And so she can't work at the full capacity. But she has these strong feelings of fairness and wanting to do right by him. These are feelings that she would later kind of narrate. And so she sets a time. She works until the autumn of 1826. And so she spends 100 pounds of wool by hand. In addition to doing much of this outside labor, and and she's beginning to turn that wool into yarn that could be used for these various projects. And then she decides that now is the time.

• 17:31Speaker 05

  Is this where the Rumpelstiltskin story comes from? Because this sounds like there's an evil troll man who's like, I won't let you be free until you spill this yarn. What? Oh, man.

• 17:43Greg Jenner?

  So Isabella takes things into her own hands and she she goes on the run. Does she take any of her kids with her?

• 17:48Speaker 04

  Yes, so she takes her infant daughter, Sophia. And she she would later say, I did not run away because I thought that wicked. I walked away because I thought that was all right. And and walk she did about 13 miles. I calculated, apparently that's a little over 21 kilometers for our adherence to the metric system. She goes and she takes refuge with a family, the Van Wagenen's, who are anti-slavery, have a strong opposition to slavery. And they take in Isabella and her infant daughter. And it's, I'm sure, a hard decision. She she leaves her children and her husband behind with Dumont in order to make this break and to self emancipate.

• 18:30Greg Jenner?

  And does she escape or does she get tracked down?

• 18:33Speaker 04

  So John Dumont eventually tracks her down. He does, he comes to the Van Wagenen's and they implore him to sell Isabella and Sophia to them. And so they paid Dumont $25, $20 for Isabella and $5 for Sophia, settling the debt and essentially securing the freedom for both mother and child. In a gesture of how much, right, this this would mean to her, that the Van Wagenen's would do this, Isabella actually takes their surname. So she becomes Isabella Van Wagenen.

• 19:03Greg Jenner?

  She's been taken in by the Van Wagenen's. She's got her daughter Sophia with her. And then she hears that her son Peter has been taken because her husband Thomas has died, Michelle. Peter had been still in enslavement, owned by the Dumonts. And John Dumont had decided to sell him to a slave owner in Alabama. And this is hugely upsetting. And and she does something extraordinary, Michelle. Can you tell us what she does in 1828?

• 19:27Speaker 04

  Yes, so her five-year-old son is sold, and not only is he sold, he's sold south to Alabama, which is, lives in the mind of many enslaved people as the worst place that you want to be enslaved. You do not want to be sold down south. The conditions are arduous and dangerous and violent, and it breaks the spirit. So Isabella is very concerned about her son. She gets lawyers and she sues. Not only does she sue Getney, so her son is sold to a man called Solomon Getney, for participating in the illegal sale of her son because New York state law prevents the sale of a person who would be free in a place where they cannot ever be free, right? So by going to Alabama, he's never going to be emancipated.

• 20:08Speaker 04

  And she sues Albany Supreme Court for allowing the sale to happen. So she sues the man and the state, and she is victorious. So in 1828, the judge rules, quote, "The boy be delivered into the hands of his mother, having no other master, no other controller, no other conductor but his mother." And she becomes, in bringing this suit, the first black woman to win a legal victory against a white man to secure a family member's freedom. So this is hugely, hugely historic. And we owe a lot to the archives. So the New York archive discovered records only a few years ago in 2022 that give us much more information about the case, including the fact that Isabella

• 20:51Speaker 04

  was allowed to give a deposition, which is very uncommon for black Americans in the court at the time. And Getney, we know from these archival records, was prosecuted for kidnapping and only returned Peter to avoid indictment. And the records also allow us to understand that the young Peter was returned to his mother badly beaten and abused. And so it's definitely a story of celebration, but also there's hardship. But I'm really excited about what people might be able to glean now that we have these records.

• 21:22Greg Jenner?

  The amazing thing really now is that Isabella is free. She's been assisted by the Van Wageners. She's still called Isabella Van Wagenen, but she goes off to New York, and she now goes to work for white families, but wealthy families, as a free woman. And one family is called the Latorets. They sound quite French to me, Michelle. Is she now, is she speaking French now?

• 21:40Speaker 04

  Not that I know of. I'm not sure, but you know, she's a multilingual woman, so who knows?

• 21:46Greg Jenner?

  And they're very religious, aren't they?

• 21:48Speaker 04

  Yes, that's absolutely right. So the Lattarettes are as religious as they are wealthy, we could say. And they're followers of a religion that would come to be known as perfectionism. And perfectionism is closely-

• 22:01Speaker 05

  I worship that as well. That's why I never get anything done.

• 22:06Speaker 04

  Right. And so perfectionism is closely tied to the Pentecostal tradition, which I think, Desiree, some of this is going to resonate with you. So it's about spreading the gospel, living plainly, speaking in tongues, singing hymns, seeking miracles, fasting, washing each other's feet. And so the Lattarettes began this holy club, which is essentially a church that they hold in their home. And they also minister in the community amongst some of the most downtrodden, prisoners, prostitutes. And Isabella begins to preach with this club as well. And she also works in the field. She begins to really craft her oratory style, her spiritual conviction at this moment in a really amazing way. She becomes

• 22:51Speaker 04

  a housekeeper for Elijah Pearson, who is a successful businessman who would become a leading religious reformer. And Pearson would claim to be a prophet, and he believed that he could cure illness and prevent death. So much so that when his wife Sarah died, likely the result of the extreme fasting that the community had been engaged in, he attempted to pray her back to life. Right? So Isabella, yes, is enmeshed in a society of deep religious devotion.

• 23:20Speaker 05

  If you're gonna try to do miracles, I would start on water first. I'd be practicing that. Start on loaves. Yeah. Just be like, oh, my wife's, well, it's time to crack it out. Boom.

• 23:31Greg Jenner?

  But then she finds someone even more interesting. Someone comes to her door, calling himself the prophet Matthias. Desiree, who do you think he claimed to be? I'll give you a clue. He's wearing gold robes. He's got a fancy beard when he shows up at her door.

• 23:46Speaker 05

  I mean, if you hadn't told me that, if he just showed up on her door and was like, "Ah, Jehovah's Witnesses, pretend you're not home." But they definitely never claimed to be Jesus.

• 23:56Greg Jenner?

  Yeah.

• 23:57Speaker 05

  Also, we've all seen, well, I guess he didn't have the benefit of seeing Indiana Jones, but you know, you gotta come as a carpenter. Jesus isn't coming out in his Elvis gear, like with a full Vegas gold on, just being like, "Oh, I'm just a humble Lord and Savior," right at your... No, he's all like, "Oh, yeah, hey, I'm just a guy with a beard. Do you want me to fix that shelf? Also, have you heard about my dad, God?" Like, you gotta do a slow roll on that.

• 24:23Greg Jenner?

  Yeah, you gotta be humble.

• 24:24Speaker 05

  So, Matthias is like, "I know I'm named after a saint, but I'm actually Jesus."

• 24:28Greg Jenner?

  Michelle, was Isabella convinced by this gold-dressed man? Or did she Holy Ghost him?

• 24:37Speaker 04

  Not at all. She is so convinced that she wept for joy and kissed his feet. It did, yeah.

• 24:43Speaker 05

  Oh, man.

• 24:46Speaker 04

  It didn't hurt that he styles his hair and clothing to look like those chromatic images of Jesus that were circulating at the time. So, he's very much trying to play the part.

• 24:55Speaker 05

  Look, we've all been scammed before, everybody. No one can act like they're above it. There's a scam for every single person out there. That's why the banks are always letting you know what's up. So, I get it. She's been waiting to meet him.

• 25:06Speaker 04

  Yes, she does. And in 1833, she follows him to a commune in Westchester called Kingdom of Matthias.

• 25:13Speaker 05

  Oh, she joins a cult!

• 25:15Speaker 04

  She does.

• 25:16Speaker 05

  Yes!

• 25:17Speaker 04

  She does, she does.

• 25:18Speaker 05

  Yes!

• 25:18Speaker 04

  And members of this organization, cult, if you will, it's what it is. They sign over thousands of dollars in property to Matthias, and he styles himself as a prophet chosen by God, and he believes that he is the only prophet. So Elijah Pearson, who has a lot of money, also a prophet, he becomes kind of edged out, even though he still remains a member of the community. But it's Matthias who is the one who is speaking the word. He takes what he calls a spirit match. He's legally married to another woman, but takes on this other woman as his spirit match. He styles himself the father, so he very much wants to be the head of everything.

• 25:57Speaker 05

  This is a cult.

• 25:58Greg Jenner?

  Yeah.

• 25:59Speaker 05

  It is. He literally is like, we're gonna take all his property and I'm gonna have several wives. This is exactly what a cult is.

• 26:06Greg Jenner?

  Yeah, and we've done a cult already with Pythagoras, so this is our second cult together, Desiree.

• 26:10Speaker 05

  Yes. Yeah, I'm just, he didn't invent the wheel.

• 26:13Greg Jenner?

  No, no. And Isabella is trying to preach, Michelle, but is not allowed to preach in this cult, so that's, that's not ideal.

• 26:20Speaker 04

  Yes, and so she, you know, begins to, or attempts at least, to defy him, but he uses physical abuse and punishment against, you know, his followers, and so it's a real tough situation that she finds herself in and is marginalized in this community.

• 26:36Greg Jenner?

  Yeah, and the commune collapses in 1834, Desiree, so only a year later, but Isabella stays loyal to Matthias. She lends him money, she gets him a lawyer.

• 26:46Speaker 05

  We all choose toxic people, man.

• 26:48Greg Jenner?

  Even, even his own wife hadn't joined the commune, but Isabella is sort of still Team Matthias. It's a bit of a red flag, isn't it, when the wife won't join, but.

• 26:56Speaker 05

  But like, all she's known are red flags her whole life, alright? I'm bringing the upbringing, like, a relationship expert would look at this and be like, it, you know, it was bad from the beginning in her upbringing, and then she met John, who would prepare the way, the toxic relationship, for this guy Matthias who beats her and she stay, ah, I love this and I hate this.

• 27:16Speaker 04

  Matthias, he gets in trouble, actually, or he, he's alleged to have poisoned Elijah Pearson, who, who dies.

• 27:25Greg Jenner?

  Oh, yeah.

• 27:26Speaker 04

  So, at, after a prolonged illness, and so it makes the newspapers, and this actually even brings side eyes, for lack of a better word, to Isabella. A family, the Folgers accuse her of trying to poison them, so they both need lawyers, and she gets a lawyer for herself, she gets a lawyer for Matthias, she tries to get all these statements, she even goes back to Demont to get a character statement. This is a really tough moment, it's all over the newspapers, and Matthias eventually kind of abandons Isabella, goes back to his wife. And so that's really how the whole thing kind of comes to an end, that particular chapter, so she's once again having to kind of start over.

• 28:04Speaker 05

  They didn't teach us this in kindergarten, when we were drawing her picture on a piece of worksheet and coloring it in. They were just like, ain't I a woman, she's a feminist, the end. Not like, oh, she joins a cult and is like, all up with the cult leader, who is super toxic, and then he poisons, I mean, but this is, this is exciting, this is sexy stuff.

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• 30:18Greg Jenner?

  Important thing to say here, Michelle, I think, is that after the collapse of the commune, Sojourner Truth emerges as an identity. The woman we, you know, the name of the episode, the woman people have heard of, the person Desiree coloured in at school. How does Isabella Van Wagenen become Sojourner Truth?

• 30:34Speaker 04

  Yes, so on June 1st, 1843, the day of Pentecost, she claims to have experienced the Holy Spirit, calling her to travel and preach. At that point in time, she had been known more frequently as Sojourner, but that's when she really adopts the surname Truth, because she believes that, you know, she is as true as God's word, God is with her. Sojourner Truth is one who travels to preach God's truth, and she spends several months on the road, trying to convince audiences to seek salvation before Judgment Day, which she predicts would occur in March 1844. So it is imminent. And so there's a, there's a huge expediency to her work at this moment.

• 31:15Greg Jenner?

  Oh, she believes the world's going to end.

• 31:17Speaker 04

  She does. And she travels-

• 31:18Speaker 05

  Oh, she was in a cult.

• 31:19Speaker 04

  Around New England, she's preaching, she doesn't speak to her children or family about this decision, and she gave her employer at the time only one hour's notice before she sets out on this new path.

• 31:30Greg Jenner?

  Amazing.

• 31:31Speaker 05

  Sounds like she's also the reason that employers now require a minimum of two weeks.

• 31:35Greg Jenner?

  Yeah, exactly, yeah. One hour, one hour.

• 31:37Speaker 05

  One hour, not going to cut it.

• 31:39Greg Jenner?

  She'd gone from Isabella Baumfree to Isabella Wagenen, she's now Sojourner Truth, and soon she was living in another commune, Desiree.

• 31:47Speaker 05

  Such an hippie. I'm into it. We never saw this part. Loves a guy in a beard and robes.

• 31:53Greg Jenner?

  But this one's less problematic, Michelle. This is the Northampton Association for Education and Industry, which sounds like a kind of local government thing. What is this commune?

• 32:02Speaker 04

  Yes, so it's a kind of education civic organisation focused on women's rights, liberal education, abolition. She doesn't immediately love it. It's kind of a stark kind of place, the people bathe in a river, right? So it's about this kind of like essential kind of living. But she believes it gives her equality of feeling, liberty of thought and the largeness of soul. And so this is a utopian community that's a stop on the Underground Railroad, and it's really where she begins to cultivate her, her kind of feelings around anti-slavery and women's issues particularly. So it's a huge moment for her and her development as a speaker.

• 32:40Greg Jenner?

  And Desiree, this is where she meets another very famous American abolitionist. Do you want to guess who?

• 32:44Speaker 05

  Can it please be Harriet Tubman? Because she's on the Underground Railroad. It's a stop. Did Harriet be like, hey, handshake? Like, I love it. It's like, you know, it's like the fingers touching on the Sistine Chapel. It's like, ah. I mean, if it's not her, then it's Frederick Douglass?

• 33:01Greg Jenner?

  Yeah, well done. Yeah, very good.

• 33:02Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 33:03Greg Jenner?

  Yeah, yeah. I mean, Harriet was probably busy, sort of, you know.

• 33:05Speaker 05

  It was busy shooting people.

• 33:07Greg Jenner?

  She was busy underground, you know, breaking people out of prison.

• 33:09Speaker 05

  Yeah, she was like, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'll meet her later. All right, I have a few things going on. But if she's speaking, so is Frederick Douglass. So I'm sure that they would like be sitting on plenty of panels together.

• 33:19Greg Jenner?

  Exactly. And Frederick Douglass, we've done an episode on it. Listeners, if you want to check that out, it's a really good one. Douglass is a renowned orator. He's a brilliant speaker and incredibly articulate. You might assume that Douglass and Sir Jonah Truth get on really well. But there's sort of tension, Michelle.

• 33:35Speaker 05

  There can only be one.

• 33:37Greg Jenner?

  It's not Highlander, that's right.

• 33:40Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 33:41Speaker 05

  They meet, it's like comics meeting at the same show. It's like, oh, I see you're trying to cut into my abolitionist coin. Cool.

• 33:49Greg Jenner?

  Who's the headline act? Is it Frederick Douglass or is it Sir Jonah Truth?

• 33:53Speaker 04

  Yeah, I mean, the headline act is, well, you know, Frederick Douglass is just starting out. And so there's tension. And they disagreed on these kind of philosophical things that also, I think, bled into their personality differences. So Douglass really stressed the importance of education. He taught himself to read and write and really wanted to be this sophisticated public orator, right? Who styled himself on the figures that surrounded him. Sir Jonah Truth, right? She's Sir Jonah Truth now, right? She was illiterate. She never learned to read and write. And I think by this time in her 30s, she was okay with that. She wasn't trying to change. And she had this more kind of homespun, accessible type of demeanor. And, you know, Douglass would say something not so nice about her.

• 34:37Speaker 04

  Douglass would write about how she would publicly point out his mistakes and also call him to the carpet for things that he would do in terms of prioritizing black men over women. Douglass really believed that truth was trying to really make him look bad in the public.

• 34:51Greg Jenner?

  I mean, it's fascinating, isn't it? Because we can lift both of these up as heroes and as pioneers. But actually, there's a fractious relationship there. So, Jenna Truth does copy one of Douglas's better ideas, i.e. a book. He writes a very, very famous book, sells quite a lot of copies, 4,500. And six months later, So, Jenna Truth announces that she's going to do a book. What's her book called, Michelle?

• 35:15Speaker 04

  Yeah, so So, Jenna needs the money, right? She's giving it all away to Matthias and these other types of institutions that she's involved in. Yeah. So, she narrates her life story to Olive Gilbert, who's a friend of William Lloyd Garrison, so the noted abolitionist. So, it's the narrative of So, Jenna Truth, drawn from her book of life. And it's published in 1850.

• 35:36Greg Jenner?

  Right.

• 35:37Speaker 04

  And even though the narrative is about So, Jenna Truth, she is a person who can't read and write. So, she's narrating her life story to Olive Gilbert. And Gilbert's voice is actually very present. And at one point, kind of implores the reader, "You need to buy this book. This woman has spent her money poorly. Her daughters are not taking care of her. The only way that you're going to support this woman is if you buy this book."

• 36:01Speaker 05

  Did you do that at the beginning? Because no one's going to find that in the middle if they haven't already bought the book.

• 36:06Greg Jenner?

  Yeah, put it on the front cover. "You must buy this book." It's very important.

• 36:09Speaker 05

  Like, seriously, you guys, buy this book.

• 36:10Greg Jenner?

  So, it's published in 1850. So, it takes four or five years or so to actually get this book down. And it's an autobiography with two voices, which is a slightly unusual idea. But there is a PR strategy in that So, Jenna Truth quite cleverly gets a celebrity endorsement. She gets the endorsement of Harriet Beecher Stowe. Do you know Harriet Beecher Stowe, Desiree?

• 36:29Speaker 05

  Uncle Tom's Cabin?

• 36:30Greg Jenner?

  Yeah, that's right.

• 36:31Speaker 05

  Yeah, okay.

• 36:32Greg Jenner?

  Huge, huge bestseller, another abolitionist. By getting an endorsement, that sells copies. And later, Michelle Stowe publishes an article about meeting So, Jenna Truth. It's an interesting document, but it's tricky.

• 36:43Speaker 04

  Yes, so in 1853, Sojourner Truth approaches Harriet Beecher Stowe for this endorsement. She gives it. And then 10 years later, Stowe will publish this article titled Sojourner Truth, The Libyan Sybil. And the piece actually suggests that Truth had died, so she has to come out later and like, you know, tell the people, I didn't die, I'm still around.

• 37:06Speaker 04

  It also is notable because it depended on inaccurate, heavily racist stereotypes. Yeah, it really gains notoriety and really contributes to a particular narrative of Truth that is less sophisticated than the real person. But at the same time, Stowe is hugely credited with furthering Truth's celebrity, right? So this article makes her hugely popular. She's able, from the money sold on the book, to buy her own home, actually. So in addition to the Harriet Beecher Stowe endorsement, the fact that it only costs 25 cents, which apparently at that time, I know nothing, is affordable. So the book is flying off the shelves, right? And allowing her to make this money.

• 37:47Speaker 05

  I mean, for the author of Uncle Tom's Cabin, are we surprised that she gave her an endorsement that was a little bit sort of not as woke as we would have enjoyed for the time? But also, I think there are always artists who are like, yeah, they don't fully get me, but everybody listens to them, you know, even now.

• 38:06Greg Jenner?

  Yeah, you want that endorsement, you just have to sort of cringe your way through it, I guess. In 1852, just the year before, that kind of big interview with Harriet Beecher Stowe, or that big moment with Harriet Beecher Stowe, in 1852, Sojourner and Frederick Douglass clashed again, because Douglass was starting to sort of suggest that taking up arms might be necessary for the emancipation of African Americans, and that perhaps God had abandoned them. And Sojourner managed to shut him up in public, in front of an audience, by saying, Frederick, is God dead? What a line!

• 38:40Speaker 04

  Yes, yeah. So she said, you know, in saying this, she's really trying to get him to think that only when God is dead will violence be the answer. So she, at the time, is very, you know, against violence. She believes that, you know, prayer, faith, faithfulness to God's word is what's going to see African Americans and slave people through this moment. And so it's this, again, another example of this ideological tension between these two people.

• 39:05Greg Jenner?

  He's literally silenced by this line, Desiree. Can you imagine her with hecklers in a comedy club? So Jonah Truth, live and loud. You can't handle the truth.

• 39:12Speaker 05

  Abolitionist totally destroys other abolitionist onstage at the Chuckle Hut. That's, I mean, yeah, because it's like, look, I know you're Frederick Douglass, but are you ready to be Nietzsche right now? Is God dead?

• 39:27Greg Jenner?

  Yeah.

• 39:28Speaker 05

  Or are you just showing your weakness right now? I mean, she's like, don't mess with me. I've been in two cults.

• 39:35Greg Jenner?

  That's true.

• 39:38Speaker 05

  You don't want to know how determined and strong my faith is.

• 39:41Greg Jenner?

  Yeah. So in the 1850s, with the book out, So Jonah Truth went on a book tour. Her name means traveling, so she's, she's living up to her name. She's traveling. And she's fighting for women's rights as well as an abolitionist, which is a really important distinction. And she meets Michelle William Lloyd Garrison. She meets a British MP, George Thompson. So there's an international movement here, which is interesting. Is she famous by this point? Is she renowned? Are people flocking to go and see her talk?

• 40:08Speaker 04

  So she has a lot of audiences, but actually, the media is very uneven about its coverage of her. So oftentimes, she's not mentioned by name and, and the papers. And so if we're looking at it from the historical record, it's very hard to tell. Yet, we also have narratives of people speaking about what a great orator she is. And so it's very clear that whenever she is speaking, that she's really, that the audience is raptured by her. She's known for, she sings to them. She has this powerful speaking quality. And she's also really funny and apparently very sarcastic. And so, and, and she's able to really infuse this wit and this humor into her speaking engagements where she's talking

• 40:51Speaker 04

  about these issues, right? Like, you know, slavery, abolition, women's inequality, right? Very serious things. But she's able to do so in a way that really invites audiences in.

• 41:01Greg Jenner?

  So she's funny, Desiree. And she's 5'11". She's got this deep, strong voice.

• 41:05Speaker 05

  I mean, I'm just saying, like, I mean, my predecessor here, like, although I'm probably not going to sing on stage anytime soon, but you never know. If it works, it works.

• 41:15Greg Jenner?

  Yeah.

• 41:16Speaker 05

  You know, it's interesting, her approach. You know, there's always been, there's always a back and forth within sort of black progress about like Elaine Locke and Zora Neale Hurston did the same thing about like, you know, can you use vernacular and can you be relatable to be bored? Does it need to be about like the talented 10th and all of this other stuff? So like, you know, you need both, like you need, you need a Malcolm and a Martin. Like you need both sides of this. So it's amazing that, you know, yeah, she didn't learn how to read. She learned how to have a reputation.

• 41:45Greg Jenner?

  She also flexed her biceps. She sort of, you know, she showed off her guns.

• 41:48Speaker 05

  She's, she's a showwoman.

• 41:50Greg Jenner?

  Yeah.

• 41:50Speaker 05

  Come on, there's songs, there's stories, there's Jesus, there's guns, but not the kind Frederick Douglass is talking about.

• 41:58Greg Jenner?

  Yeah.

• 41:58Speaker 05

  Cause God is very much alive.

• 42:00Greg Jenner?

  Exactly, there we go. Now, I think we have to get to the most important speech that she is said to have given, which is of course the entire woman's speech, Michelle, and this is an iconic speech. Does she say that? What do we know about the speech? Can you give us a potted history of it?

• 42:14Speaker 04

  I will also say that I gave this speech as a kid on the news, on the morning news at 6 a.m. So it's very dear to me, but it is a, it's a complicated history. So Truth gave this speech, or is purported to have given this speech at the Ohio Women's Right Convention that was held in Akron in May 1851. And in this speech, we do know that Truth spoke about how she could do as much physical labor as a man, about how Jesus was the son of God and of a woman, argued very humorously that women were valued in the eyes of God in a way that men were not. She says, "She's plowed and planted and gathered into barns and no man could heed me and aren't I a woman?" So that's the like part of the, the text that's often attributed to her.

• 42:57Speaker 04

  The article was written by an organizer of this convention called Frances Dana Gage. It is believed that she writes this directly in response to Stowe's more stereotypical and damaging kind of depiction of Truth in that Libyan civil piece. And so Gage here is making a specific. Big point about the intersection of of a kind of women's ideology or political orientation and that of a kind of black pride or or kind of black ideology, right? She's trying to bring these things together, that you can be both black and woman. She does so in adopting a dialect that was not Truth's. Much of the the kind of practice of the time for particularly writers who are trying to elevate

• 43:40Speaker 04

  the abolitionist cause is that they're translating the kind of oratory of enslaved or formerly enslaved people into broken dialect. And it's, you know, offensive, right? Particularly to our kind of modern ear. It's also inaccurate. That's not how Truth spoke. We've made it clear today, right? She was she was of Dutch heritage, right? She had a Dutch accent and spoke like many people in her region. In one line, "Then that little man in black dark, he say woman can't have as much right as man." That would not have been the speech.

• 44:13Speaker 05

  Yeah, but if you're gonna come and do some rap, you're gonna pretend you've been to jail. You know, like, you're gonna talk about how many, you know, like, you're gonna come hard. You're not like, even if you're Dutch, you're gonna try to sound like you're American black and not Dutch if you want to sound authentic. And she's she's doing the performance. So like, I don't know, I kind of get it.

• 44:34Greg Jenner?

  We'll talk more about it in the nuance window, I know, Michelle. But the thing that follows the speech soon after is the American Civil War. What did Sojourner Truth do in the Civil War?

• 44:43Speaker 04

  Yeah, so she becomes a huge figure in terms of trying to galvanize support amongst Black Americans, particularly to the Union cause. And so she works very hard to recruit Black men into the Union Army. Her grandson, right, also enlists. And so that's a huge moment. And she speaks with President Abraham Lincoln about what is to come for Black Americans. And she comes to, you know, really support the war. She sees it as necessary, as religiously, morally necessary for the country. And she becomes really interested in what's gonna happen for people after the war. But in terms of her her work for the Union Army in particular, she's collecting Food for troops.

• 45:26Speaker 04

  She's using her photographs to bring awareness to the war cause and really trying to popularize the notion that this is an important endeavor for Black Americans to be engaged in.

• 45:39Greg Jenner?

  She met three presidents in her life, Desiree. She met Abraham Lincoln, but she also met Andrew Johnson and then Ulysses S. Grant as well. So she's, you know, she's moving in high circles. How do you think the meeting went with Abe Lincoln, Desiree? What's your?

• 45:53Speaker 05

  Well, if you ask it like that, I mean.

• 45:56Greg Jenner?

  I'm not leaving the witness. I'm just asking.

• 45:58Speaker 05

  She loves that truth. She loves that tea. She's spicy. So I was someone like Douglas might have been a little bit more like, oh, hello and blah, blah, blah, and we're doing official things. She might have been a little bit freer with her opinions about like how lucky this president was to meet her and all of her insight. So I don't know. I think it could have been spicy.

• 46:17Greg Jenner?

  So you think she played Sojourner Truth or Dare with the president? She was, you know, a bit of a risky game. Michelle.

• 46:24Speaker 05

  And he was like, dare.

• 46:25Greg Jenner?

  Dare, yeah. Michelle, I don't think we know how it went necessarily, but we get a sense perhaps that the person she was with felt that he was rude to her.

• 46:35Speaker 04

  Yeah, there are conflicting accounts here. Yeah, thank you very much for that. So Truth would describe Lincoln as amenable and someone who greeted her as an equal. But she would attend this meeting with her friend and colleague Lucy Coleman, who would later describe Lincoln as tense when he met Truth. And Coleman alleges that Lincoln actually addresses her truth as he would a washerwoman. And so as actually not recognizing Truth's stature and importance.

• 47:02Greg Jenner?

  Yeah, I suppose for Sojourner Truth, her saying he was amenable to me, that works in her favor. So maybe she wants that meeting to be well received.

• 47:10Speaker 05

  Yeah, I wanted her to be up in there and be like, oh, so you're the president. Well, let me tell you something. But yeah, I also can see how she'd be like, you know what? It's, it helps to have powerful people on your side, you know? So like, like, let's make him feel like everything was great and get what we need, especially since she's so pro-war now. I love, I love when she's like, you know, I was never against the war. I was just against Douglas.

• 47:35Greg Jenner?

  Yeah, exactly.

• 47:35Speaker 05

  I just could never stand him.

• 47:38Greg Jenner?

  So like Douglas, the agenda truth used photography very clever, very carefully, very cleverly to sort of disseminate her image. But after the war, was she an important part of the conversations in the rebuilding of America, Michelle? Did the agenda truth get her due after the crisis had ended?

• 47:54Speaker 04

  Yes and no. So she becomes really part of these circles, right? So she is with leading women's rights and suffrage figures. So in 1872, she joined Susan B. Anthony in trying to vote in a presidential election. She's turned away. She's touring New York State. And by this time, you know, in 1870, she's in her 70s and she's lecturing daily, sometimes twice a day. She participates in efforts to try to get land for Black Americans, even though that's never really kind of supported by Congress. So she's, she's really has and is developing grand political ambitions, right?

• 48:34Speaker 04

  Well into her, her later years and, and really has what, you know, we will know to be really powerful interlocutors. But, but, you know, I would say, you know, going back to something that we discussed earlier, right? We, we often know their names and know more about them than we do about truth. So there's certainly an unevenness.

• 48:53Greg Jenner?

  When you say land for African Americans, are you saying that she wanted to create like reservations almost for, for people who'd been freed?

• 49:02Speaker 04

  So mostly like not, not quite a reservation, but wanting to have the kind of 40 acres and a mule kind of conversation, right? There was a kind of brief dream of this, but it wouldn't become a realized. But I do think it's a kind of testament to her vision that she anticipates that the Civil War will leave much undone for Black Americans.

• 49:22Speaker 05

  I can't remember the timing of 40 acres and a mule, but this is post-Civil War. So this is like Reconstruction. So that must've come up. Like, is she part of a conversation or is she starting a conversation that takes off later? Like, what's the timing of her trying to do this?

• 49:37Speaker 04

  So she's very much part of a conversation that's going on, but I think because of her proximity, right, she's one, in addition to Frederick Douglass, who's actually meeting the presidents. And so she has a unique position to actually be effective and to talk to them firsthand about this. And so while, you know, it's not necessarily a discourse that she starts, she's a really effective administrator in terms of getting that message out there.

• 50:02Greg Jenner?

  And so the end of her life, I mean, she's already elderly in her seventies. She lived into her eighties, but at the end of her life, how did her life end?

• 50:09Speaker 04

  So she has various bouts of illness. She tries to travel locally. By this time, she's in Battle Creek, Michigan, so she's relocated again. And she really finds refuge and and community in Michigan. It's a place that she really comes to love. But, you know, she's she's very sick. And during this time, she continues, though, to give speeches. She's continues to draw audiences and her speeches are printed very widely. But unfortunately, she dies on twenty sixth of November, eighteen eighty-three, at home at around the age of eighty-six. And she is eulogized by her many colleagues, including Susan B.

• 50:53Speaker 04

  Anthony and Frederick Douglass. So her her long frenemy will come back and speak of her upon our passing.

• 51:02Greg Jenner?

  Oh, that's nice.

• 51:03Speaker 05

  Of course, you've got to speak well of the dead, especially if you outlive them.

• 51:05Greg Jenner?

  Yeah, well, yeah, but also.

• 51:07Speaker 05

  He's like, my favorite frenemy. You know, what can be said? First of all, I'm here and you're not, but also you are great.

• 51:14Greg Jenner?

  But, you know, sometimes the greats need a rival to push them further on, you know. So eighteen eighty-three, eighty-six years old, that it's a long, long, extraordinary life. It's been quite the sojourn we've had, Desiree. Any final thoughts before we do our nuance window?

• 51:29Speaker 05

  This was amazing. You've given me a notebook and I have studied for this like I was cramming for an exam. There are five pages here. I don't even know if I've listened as well as I've written down notes about this person. I I love this. The cult years are delicious.

• 51:47Speaker 05

  Just like, you know, also like her, her touring comedian performer years. Like, I feel like it's, there's a series like Hacks that like we can watch. You know, I'm like, it's a film, it's a series. Like, I want to see the like, the abolitionist speaking circuit and all of the like, you know, the sort of backstage happenings. But also like, it was cool to see how much she was able to emancipate herself in various ways over and over and over again. This is stuff that they don't teach you and I'm really in awe of, so thank you.

• 52:19Greg Jenner?

  Beautifully summarized. And also, I just love the fact that she had a Dutch accent. You just don't imagine that, right?

• 52:23Speaker 05

  Yeah, the whole time.

• 52:23Greg Jenner?

  The whole time.

• 52:24Speaker 05

  Which is like not, it's not the one that you're thinking of. Like, you know what I mean? It's not the one. In the movie, you're like, who's gonna pull that one off? Because it's real specific. Real niche.

• 52:37Greg Jenner?

  The Nuance Window.

• 52:44Greg Jenner?

  Time now for the Nuance Window. This is where Desiree and I listen in rapturous silence for two minutes while Dr. Michelle preaches to us about something we need to know about Sajana Truth. So my stopwatch is ready. Please take it away, Dr. Michelle.

• 52:57Speaker 04

  So, you know, Sajana Truth, she is what we know to be this, this really great figure. But a lot of her life exists, you know, at the edge of myth in reality. There's so much about her that we can't know, we won't ever know. Like, what she really sounded like, right? A lot of that comes from the, the kind of narrations of others. And because, you know, she is someone so kind of shrouded in myth, I think it's important for us to really sit with what she did and what we can know based on what she did, right? We know that she is a woman who was deeply religious, who stepped out on faith to self emancipate herself, who moved about in these various kind of avenues to live the life

• 53:41Speaker 04

  that she wanted for herself as a free person. And we know that she really tried to thread this needle between a faithfulness to her race as a black woman, but also to her gender, right? As, as a woman who wanted to seek equality. And, and this is- It's not an easy balance to contend with at the moment at which she's doing it. Right. We have examples today of how hard that is for some people. And so there's, there's so much about what she said that we'll never know for sure. But we know that she worked tirelessly on behalf of black people, on behalf of women, to improve their lives. And so I think if we know that, we know as much truth that is important and possible to know.

• 54:25Greg Jenner?

  Thank you so much, Michelle. Desiree?

• 54:28Speaker 05

  That was incredible and inspiring. Thank you for making this person just breathing the sort of modern day heroin into her that she deserves. That was really cool. And yeah, I mean, just kind of remind you like that we're all history in the making. And, you know, how you choose to focus and how you choose to build that, you know, as part of a legacy that other people 100 plus years later pick up and go like, oh, wow, I didn't know what this person was doing and how inspiring that is to what I would love to do.

• 55:01Greg Jenner?

  That's amazing. And also I think sometimes we don't always know what people said exactly in speeches, but you can sort of see the effect they had on people. It's almost like you can see where the ripples are in the water. And the pebble is gone, but the ripples are still there. And that's quite nice that with the journey of truth, we maybe she didn't say, ain't I a woman, but she definitely communicated that concept to people. So it's, it's still amazing. So what do you know now?

• 55:30Greg Jenner?

  So time now for our quiz. This is the So What Do You Know Now? This is for Desiree to see how much she has learned. And Desiree, I mean, at this point, we know that full marks is guaranteed with you. You are our quiz champion.

• 55:42Speaker 05

  I mean, every single time I'm trying to conjure this up, this spirit of like, I've never been lucky in anything. So like, if I can keep it at the table, you know, like in Vegas and keep high rolling, I feel so great about this.

• 55:56Greg Jenner?

  10 questions. I mean, I'm sure you'll get most of them, but let's see if 10 is doable.

• 55:59Speaker 05

  Let's take those takes right on down. How about that? How about we do that?

• 56:03Greg Jenner?

  All right, let's do that.

• 56:03Speaker 05

  Because, you know, everyone is allowed to be human.

• 56:05Greg Jenner?

  Fine. We'll start with an easy one. Question one, what was the journey of truth's first language?

• 56:11Speaker 05

  Oh, Dutch.

• 56:12Greg Jenner?

  Very good. Okay. Question two: what did Sojourner Truth do when a cult leader, Matthias, appeared at her door saying he was Jesus Christ?

• 56:20Speaker 05

  She was like, "Right then, finally, you found me. Great. Let's go ahead and leave together because you're Christ our Savior and let's carry on."

• 56:28Greg Jenner?

  And what did she do to his feet?

• 56:29Speaker 05

  Oh, like wash them, kiss them.

• 56:31Greg Jenner?

  She kissed them, yeah, yeah.

• 56:34Speaker 05

  You'd massage them forever. Like, come on.

• 56:37Greg Jenner?

  Question three: what was the name of Sojourner's son, whose freedom she successfully sued for in a court of law?

• 56:42Speaker 05

  Oh, Peter.

• 56:43Greg Jenner?

  It was Peter. Well done.

• 56:44Speaker 05

  Or Peter that she went to go get.

• 56:46Greg Jenner?

  Question four: why did she adopt the name Sojourner Truth? What did it mean to her?

• 56:50Speaker 05

  That she was going to travel the world as she knew it and preach God's truth.

• 56:55Greg Jenner?

  Very good. Question five: which fellow abolitionist and longtime rival did Truth first meet at the Northampton Association?

• 57:03Speaker 05

  Sorry, she met Frederick Douglass. And it's just so funny. Like, we're like, "Hey, what's up?" I hate you.

• 57:11Greg Jenner?

  It's a mutual respect.

• 57:11Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 57:12Greg Jenner?

  Question six: what is unusual about Truth's autobiography?

• 57:16Speaker 05

  Well, it's an autobiography written by a different person. So it's an autobiography that features two voices inside of it.

• 57:25Greg Jenner?

  And it's Olive Gilbert. Question seven: what famous line from a speech given by Sojourner Truth at the Ohio Women's Rights Convention might have been misquoted?

• 57:33Speaker 05

  It's "Ain't I a woman?" But ain't I a woman?

• 57:36Greg Jenner?

  That's right.

• 57:37Speaker 05

  She might have said "diss dat" and "d'other" because she did it in dialect and everybody just wrote down what they wanted.

• 57:42Greg Jenner?

  And maybe with a Dutch accent, too.

• 57:43Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 57:44Greg Jenner?

  But so there we go. Question eight: what technology did Sojourner Truth use to disseminate her image?

• 57:50Speaker 05

  I mean, a photo. Like, there's a photo. What technology?

• 57:53Greg Jenner?

  Yeah, photography, yeah. Question nine: what was notable about Sojourner Truth's appearance and physicality?

• 57:59Speaker 05

  She was tall and buff. She was almost six feet tall and she was like swole. Because she did all the work.

• 58:06Greg Jenner?

  Yeah, she lifted heavy. Yeah.

• 58:07Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 58:09Greg Jenner?

  And question 10, this for a perfect 10 with Sir Jenna Truth met three US presidents. Can you name two of them?

• 58:15Speaker 05

  Grant and Lincoln. And the other one was Johnson, but whatever, Grant and Lincoln.

• 58:21Greg Jenner?

  Perfect, well done. Desiree Birch, never in doubt, 10 out of 10.

• 58:24Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 58:25Greg Jenner?

  Well done.

• 58:25Speaker 05

  I couldn't have lost it on someone this amazing. I, this is revelation. Thank you so much, Michelle and Grant.

• 58:31Speaker 04

  You remain the best student.

• 58:32Speaker 05

  I mean, I would study this forever. Can I come back to Cornell, but like for no money?

• 58:38Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 58:41Speaker 05

  Is that a thing?

• 58:41Speaker 04

  Don't tell him I said it.

• 58:45Greg Jenner?

  Listener, if you want more from Desiree and Michelle, check out our episodes on Harriet Tubman and Josephine Baker, both extraordinary women. And for more abolitionist history, why not listen to our episode on Frederick Douglass, who was a very important and interesting man?

• 58:58Speaker 05

  No, he's, he's incredible. And it's, it's cool when amazing people are like, yeah, but I could take him or leave him, you know, with the other one. That's kind of a rivalry is great.

• 59:07Greg Jenner?

  Exactly, exactly that. I'm a big Douglas fan, but yes, I think there was, there was genuine rivalry and respect. I think they're in that relationship with Sir Jenna Truth. But anyway, listen to that one too. And to you lovely listener, join me next time as we follow in the footsteps of another forgotten firebrand. But for now, I'm off to go and grow my beard, cover myself in gold and convince my neighbours that I am Jesus Christ. Hello, bye.

• 59:34Greg Jenner?

  This episode of You're Dead to Me was researched by Madeline Bracy. It was written by Madeline Bracy, Emmy Rose Price Goodfellow, Emma Nagouse and me. The audio producer was Steve Hanke and our production coordinator was Ben Hollands. It was produced by Emmy Rose Price Goodfellow, me and senior producer Emma Nagouse and our executive editor was James Cook. You're Dead to Me is a BBC Studios audio production for BBC Radio 4.

• 1:00:09Speaker 03

  Join me, Rachel Burden, inside Cafe Hope. Thank you so much. Thank you. Radio 4's virtual coffee shop, where guests pop in to tell us what they're doing to make the world a better place. I really believe that food waste and food poverty shouldn't coexist. From those helping feed people, to those helping them get out and about. We've now created a scheduled bus service running six days a week. Hear about the plans, the struggles and the triumphs. We've had a really supportive local community here. A home for people who've dedicated their lives to helping others. The new series of Cafe Hope with me, Rachel Burden, from BBC Radio 4. Listen now on BBC Sounds.

• 1:00:51Speaker 07

  It's the film that convinced Americans the Second World War was worth fighting.

• 1:00:56Speaker 03

  A reason to be in Hollywood that is really quite a terrifying situation.

• 1:01:01Speaker 07

  And its production is an extraordinary story in itself. Ronald Reagan had been named as the potential lead. Join me, Mischa Glenny, and three expert guests for a special live edition of In Our Time, where we discuss Casablanca. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.