163: Ola

In 2019, Ola Bini, a Swedish programmer and privacy advocate, was arrested in Ecuador for being a Russian hacker. Find Ola on X: https://x.com/olabini. Or visit his website https://olabini.se/blog/. Or check out his non-profit https://autonomia.digital/. SponsorsSupport for this show comes from ThreatLocker® https://www.threatlocker.com/. ThreatLocker® is a Zero Trust Endpoint Protection Platform that strengthens your infrastructure from the ground up. With ThreatLocker® Allowlisting and Ringfencing™, you gain a more secure approach to blocking exploits of known and unknown vulnerabilities. ThreatLocker® provides Zero Trust control at the kernel level that enables you to allow everything you need and block everything else, including ransomware! Learn more at www.threatlocker.com https://www.threatlocker.com/. This show is sponsored by Miro https://miro.com/. AI doesn’t have to be intimidating—in fact, it can help your team thrive. Miro’s Innovation Workspace changes that by bringing people and AI together to turn ideas into impact, fast. Whether you’re launching a new podcast, streamlining a process, or building the next big thing, Miro helps your team move quicker, collaborate better, and actually enjoy the work. Learn more at https://miro.com/. This show is sponsored by Thales http://thalesgroup.com/cyber. With their industry-leading platforms, you can protect critical applications, data and identities – anywhere and at scale with the highest ROI. That’s why the most trusted brands and largest banks, retailers and healthcare companies in the world rely on Thales to protect what matters most – applications, data and identities. Learn more at http://thalesgroup.com/cyber. View all active sponsors. https://darknetdiaries.com/sponsors/ Sources https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2019/08/ecuador-political-actors-must-step-away-ola-binis-case https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2025/04/six-years-dangerous-misconceptions-targeting-ola-bini-and-digital-rights-ecuador https://peoplesdispatch.org/2019/04/12/ola-bini-detained-in-ecuador-for-90-days/ https://globalvoices.org/2022/10/21/ola-bini-the-cyberactivist-who-causes-panic-in-ecuador/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2019/09/ecuador-allanamiento-violento-pone-en-riesgo-juicio-justo-ola-bini-2/https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ola_Bini

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jack Rhysider?

  Hey, this is Jack, host of the show. When I was a teenager, I went to university and studied computer science. At one point, they gave all the students logins to some central Linux computer. It's where you were supposed to do your schoolwork. Like, you could use it for file storage or check email there and do programming. Well, when they gave me my username and password, they said, "My username is my last name and my password is just my first and last name." And I instantly realized, this means if you know another student's full name, you know their username and password and can log in as them and read their emails and look through their files and stuff. And I told that to the teacher. "Hey, this is a bad password policy." He's like, "Why?" And I'm like, "'Cause I know everyone's password."

• 0:45Jack Rhysider?

  He's like, "Yeah, well, everyone should be changing their password." I'm like, "Yeah, but they're not. None of them are changing their passwords." I tried helping a few students change their password, but I knew it was a lost cause. You could pretty much pick any computer science student in the school and there was a pretty good chance that you could log in as them if you just knew their first and last name. Well, while I was sitting in class one day, the school's sysadmin came into the class and he pointed at me and he motioned for me to follow him to the hall. So I go into the hall and he starts telling me, "Someone has broken into our Linux computer and is going around deleting a bunch of student files and data and stuff. Some students lost a ton of work from this." I was like, "Well, it wasn't me. I don't know anything about that. I've never done that."

• 1:29Jack Rhysider?

  But this guy was giving me a crooked look. He's like, "Come on, fess up. I know it was you." I was like, "No, it wasn't. Why are you blaming me? What makes you think I did this?" He's like, "Come on, man. I've seen your command history. You're way more active on that computer than anyone else and the commands you're doing show me that you know way more than any other student too. So it had to be you. There's literally no other suspects." And I'm like, "I promise you, I did not do anything bad on your system, but you have really terrible default passwords and the students are not changing them." He was like, "Whatever, dude. Look, if it happens again, you're getting suspended." And I started to realize, if whoever did that again,

• 2:13Jack Rhysider?

  I might get kicked out of school for that. And this made me super worried. I was being wrongfully accused.

• 2:22Jack Rhysider?

  But I was lucky that they either found the guy who did it, or he never did it again because I never saw that sysadmin again.

• 2:35Jack Rhysider?

  These are true stories from the dark side of the internet.

• 2:42Jack Rhysider?

  I'm Jack Resider. This is Darknet Diaries.

• 3:02Jack Rhysider?

  This episode is sponsored by ShipStation. During Black Friday and Cyber Monday, things can get a bit hectic. Millions of people scrambling to find the lowest price online and then all clicking "Buy" multiple times within a 72-hour period. Now, retailers all over have to somehow ship those orders out on time, and that seems like a whole new level of hectic, one that ShipStation is built to help businesses manage. ShipStation is an end-to-end order fulfillment platform, built to handle the order surge of peak season and bring all your orders into one place so your team isn't scrambling when volume spikes. Over 1 million businesses have learned on ShipStation to get through peak season, scaling fulfillment up to 40 times while cutting costs up to 30%. If I needed to ship a lot of stuff, I would definitely be using ShipStation.

• 3:47Jack Rhysider?

  Peak season doesn't wait, and neither should you. Get ahead of it today with ShipStation. Get 60 days free at shipstation.com and use code DARKNET. That's shipstation.com code DARKNET. Taxes and fees apply.

• 4:07Jack Rhysider?

  This episode is sponsored by Black Hills Information Security. Black Hills InfoSec loves sharing their knowledge with free webcasts, blogs, zines, comics, and courses designed for beginners and those more advanced. Through anti-siphon training, they teach you the cybersecurity skills you need, from SOC analyst tools and methodologies to setting up traps and running deception operations. It's hands-on, practical training built for people who Want to advance and hone their skills. The world of cybersecurity has changed a lot this year, and every day seems to bring more questions about what comes next. That's why Anti-Siphon Training is hosting a free summit on December 9th, asking, "What in the actual cyber happened in 2026?" Join experienced practitioners as they share practical lessons,

• 4:52Jack Rhysider?

  real-world experiences, and insights into the top security news of 2026. Because you're a Darknet Darius listener, they've got a little something extra waiting for you at blackhillsinfosec.com/darknet. That's blackhillsinfosec.com/darknet.

• 5:12Jack Rhysider?

  2019 is when you got arrested, right?

• 5:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, correct, in April 11.

• 5:16Jack Rhysider?

  Alright, so let's go back before that. First of all, tell me your name, and what were you doing before that?

• 5:22Speaker 01

  Okay, so my name is Ola Binie. I'm from Sweden originally, but I've lived in London and Chicago and here in Ecuador, where I'm still located since 2013, when I came to Ecuador.

• 5:34Jack Rhysider?

  When did you leave Sweden?

• 5:36Speaker 01

  So I left Sweden in 2007, because I was hired by an international software development company called Dotworks. And I worked for them for 10 years. And that's how I came to Ecuador originally. I came with the company.

• 5:51Jack Rhysider?

  What's your preferred programming language?

• 5:54Speaker 01

  That's a hard question, since I've developed my own programming languages. And of course, I like my own programming languages a lot. But I'm pretty old-school when it comes to the history of programming languages. So I'm a huge fan of Common Lisp. And I'm still a proud Emacs user, and I have my millions of lines of Emacs Lisp code to customize my experience.

• 6:16Jack Rhysider?

  Millions, geez. Are you a big Java fan?

• 6:21Speaker 01

  See, that's a funny question, because when I got my first job, I started working in Java. And I was very frustrated with Java from a productivity perspective. So I got involved in creating other languages for the JVM. So I first was involved in a Lisp variant called JETA. And then... And then I got involved in J Ruby, which is basically a project to to create a Ruby implementation that runs on top of the JVM. And I became one of the core developers for for J Ruby. And that's kind of what I did for the next few years. The idea was basically to use all the good stuff that is in the Java platform without actually having to to deal with the bad stuff, which is, in my opinion, the Java language.

• 6:59Jack Rhysider?

  Fascinating. Java always marketed itself as usable on any device or operating system, making it so you can program something once and it'll run anywhere, as opposed to making different apps for different operating systems. However, the language itself is clunky and ugly. So Ola took the beauty he saw in the Ruby programming language and got it to work in Java somehow. It's kind of mind bending to me that you could code something in Ruby and it'll run anywhere Java can. But this is a kind of audacious project that Ola enjoys working on. He likes to work on huge projects that are pretty obscure and strange. He spent decades as a programmer, working for various companies in various countries. And besides having a love for programming, he's also got a burning passion for online privacy.

• 7:44Speaker 01

  If you look back in the in the key servers for for GPG, you will find my first GPG key uploaded in 2001 or 2002 or something like that. So privacy was something that I was always interested in. And from my first job, I was involved with cryptography and that kind of stuff. In 2010, WikiLeaks started releasing the diplomatic cables. And so my interest kind of in my activity kind of started coming back in that time. But but then I had my regular day job and I didn't really get super engaged until the beginning of 2013, because that was when, actually, it was it was an event where a friend of mine named Aaron Swartz, I don't know if you've heard of him.

• 8:25Jack Rhysider?

  Yes, of course.

• 8:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, so he killed himself in the beginning of January of 2013. And that was a huge blow to me. And it was a huge blow to to many people inside of the company because he worked with us. And we started talking about how we wanted to do more from a privacy perspective, from a digital advocacy perspective and all these things. So in 2013, I kind of started out working on those things. And I started out doing both. And I really was doing both privacy and information security at the same time.

• 8:58Jack Rhysider?

  So what was your what was your involvement with WikiLeaks? Did you actually work with them?

• 9:03Speaker 01

  No, no, and that's the thing. Like, I've been accused of working for WikiLeaks for a long time. Uh, but that's not true. I never worked for WikiLeaks in any way. But I am a friend of Julian Assange. And that's, that's what came in 2013. Because, um, I was doing all this work, reaching out to privacy networks and talking to people around the world. And then a friend in common, who, who was the lawyer for, for Julian, recommended to Julian that I should meet Julian. So it was pretty funny. It was, it was a week before the Snowden disclosures. I went to London and I went to the Ecuadorian embassy. And I, I met Julian and we became friends. And then, since then, I was traveling a lot. And, and every time I was in Europe, I passed by London and, and I went to the embassy to hang out with him

• 9:47Speaker 01

  and, and just talk about technology or privacy or all these things. But we were only friends. I, we were never collaborators or, or working together in any way.

• 9:57Jack Rhysider?

  Uh, it's interesting. Julian was in the Ecuadorian embassy and Ola had just moved to Ecuador from the United States.

• 10:03Speaker 01

  I, I was in a very privileged position because my company basically told me I could go wherever I wanted, that the company had offices and I could work from anywhere. So I could have moved to India, I could have moved to China, to Australia. But, uh, at the same time, there was this discussion about opening up an office. Uh, because the company at that point had offices in Brazil, but nowhere else in Latin America. And, uh, I, I had a wife at the time and she was interested in learning Spanish. So we were thinking about, okay, Latin America could be interesting. And then, uh, the company decided that Ecuador would be the place. And we went and we liked it. So we, so we went there. And, and everyone always asks if, if there was any connection with, with what Julian went through.

• 10:47Speaker 01

  But actually, it was complete coincidence that I ended up in the same country as Julian, uh, was in the embassy of.

• 10:53Jack Rhysider?

  Julian Assange was in trouble because his website, WikiLeaks, had published some sensitive articles which exposed things like governments that were doing things that they didn't want us to know about. And they wanted to arrest him for exposing this stuff. So he was granted asylum in the Ecuadorian embassy in London. Because Ecuador looked favorably upon him. But he couldn't leave the embassy because the UK and the US didn't like him. And they wanted to arrest him. So Julian Assange was stuck there, like on a little island that if he stepped off of, the UK police would swoop in on him and arrest him.

• 11:27Speaker 01

  Oh yeah, yeah, no, I was crazy. And I mean, of course, he didn't have so many friends so that could come and visit him. So that was one of the reasons why I kept doing it to, like, sitting in that situation that he was in, like, being alone like that. Like, if I were in that situation, I would like for people to come and hang out and just have friends that you can talk to in different ways. So, so yeah, so I met him the first time in the first week of June 2013. And then, just a few days later, came the first Snowden disclosures and the whole world blew up and started talking about privacy and all this stuff.

• 12:04Jack Rhysider?

  Yeah, it's true. Once the Snowden papers became news, the world started talking about privacy, a lot. See, it's against the law for the US to do mass surveillance on its own citizens, but the Snowden paper showed that through the Prism Project and others, the US government was doing mass surveillance on its own US citizens. It was awful for them to be doing that without consent, without approval, without the citizens knowing it's happening. So tons of people were suddenly talking about privacy then. And of course, all this made Ola realize, you can't trust the infrastructure that our communication is going over. There's entities in the world trying to suck up all the data they can and look in everyone's packets. So it's incredibly important to do end-to-end encryption on

• 12:47Jack Rhysider?

  everything, so only you and the person you're talking to can see what's being said. See, with email, for example, typically the email provider can open and read all the email they want. If the police get a search warrant, they can ask the email provider for full, readable emails. So Ola started working on tools which would restrict the email provider from being able to see emails. Even if someone put a gun to the email provider's head, they wouldn't be able to hand over readable emails. It would just be encrypted gibberish. He made it so that the sender and receiver would exchange encryption keys. This means the email gets encrypted upon hitting send and only decrypted when the receiver opens it. Nobody else will ever get to see what's in it.

• 13:32Speaker 01

  We were also doing our own development. We created a chat platform, a chat tool called Koi IM.

• 13:38Jack Rhysider?

  And this also had end-to-end encryption built in and was very privacy focused. Because most of the popular chat apps then, and surprisingly still today, are not end-to-end encrypted. So these chat services can read anyone's messages and so can the governments of the world. Or hackers, if they can get into the systems. As you can see, privacy is very important to Ola.

• 14:01Speaker 01

  I use a definition of privacy, which is based on the idea of control. Privacy is the capacity for you to control the information about yourself. So privacy is not about hiding, although hiding can be one of the things you do with privacy. Privacy is controlling what information you want to release, to whom you want to release it, under what circumstances, et cetera. For me, privacy is important, well, it's important because it's a human right and that should be enough. But it's also very important because it's very, very closely linked to other rights. For example, if you're a person that believes in democracy, then you should believe in privacy.

• 14:41Speaker 01

  Because there's been a lot of studies that show that people under surveillance vote in a different way than if they're not under surveillance. So if you want to have free and proper elections, then you need privacy for people, for example. So in my perspective, the important thing about privacy is that it enables all these other rights. And the problem is that privacy in the fiscal world, privacy has always been quite hard to violate in a massive way. It's not like you can have a person just standing at the window of 100,000 people. I mean, if I remember correctly, the... The STASI in East Germany, I think at some point 4% of everyone was working as

• 15:25Speaker 01

  an informant for the STASI, 4% of the population, but they still weren't able to, to in any way invade the privacy of most people with, with that amount of people. But of course, in the technological world, the, the possibility for violation is extreme. And that's what we're seeing like every year, like the, the privacy invasions are becoming larger and larger.

• 15:47Jack Rhysider?

  Since 2013, Ola has been vocal about this, blogging about it on WordPress, working with others, building tools to enhance our privacy and trying to be a privacy activist. His job allowed him to build privacy tools while working there, but that company he was working at got bought out by a private equity company and he knew he wasn't going to be able to work on those tools anymore with that new leadership.

• 16:09Speaker 01

  So I quit and a few of the other people quit as well and we started a nonprofit here in Ecuador. Well, actually, we, we started it first in Brazil and in Barcelona, but then in 2019, we moved nonprofit to Ecuador.

• 16:23Jack Rhysider?

  This nonprofit was entirely focused on privacy.

• 16:27Speaker 01

  So, so this is a nonprofit called Centro de Autonomía Digital and yeah, the Digital Autonomy Center, you can call it in, in English, it's based here in Ecuador. We work to create free software that protects the privacy for, for people at risk and specifically we try to work from a context of global south more than global north because a lot of the tools that exist are done for, for white people in Europe and, and the United States. And, and we know that being in Ecuador, for example, we have contacts with a lot of nonprofits that work here and a lot of the indigenous groups and, and all these kinds of situations that are quite complicated. And many of the tools are not really made for them, not in the right language, not with the right usability, not for the right circumstances.

• 17:12Speaker 01

  So, so we worked on free software.

• 17:14Jack Rhysider?

  They build a chat app and email privacy tools and a teleconferencing tool.

• 17:18Speaker 01

  The, the software development is a big part, but the other big part is that we do public education about security and privacy. And this is directed against, directed towards.

• 17:29Speaker 01

  The communities of civil society to try to help them to have better practices and so on, because a lot of them, I mean, a lot of the people that work in civil society, they get money to do projects to help people and they often don't have time to think about their security practices.

• 17:49Jack Rhysider?

  In May of 2018, when a new president took office in Ecuador, everything changed. We're going to take an ad break here, but stay with us because this story is about to go off a waterfall.

• 18:07Jack Rhysider?

  This episode is sponsored by Arctic Wolf. Everyone is slapping AI-powered on their security tools, but Arctic Wolf took a different approach. Instead of duct taping AI onto the SOC, they rebuilt the SOC around AI and called it the Aurora Superintelligence Platform. If you ever tried to build your own AI pipeline, you know the pain. Data engineering, model tuning, governance, validation, Aurora removes all of it. You deploy it and instantly inherit the intelligence, guardrails, and operational maturity of one of the world's largest agentic SOC. Under the hood, Aurora is running a fully agentic architecture they call the Swarm of Experts. These agents are battle-tested inside the world's largest commercial SOC and only ship

• 18:50Jack Rhysider?

  when they can outperform human-only workflows. And its integration is seamless as Aurora works within Arctic Wolf's concierge experience, allowing your security team to focus on higher-value strategy and proactive risk reduction. If you want to see what a real trustworthy agent-led SOC looks like, not the marketing slide version, go to arcticwolf.com/darknet. That's arcticwolf.com/darknet.

• 19:18Speaker 01

  So the new president, his name is Lleny Moreno. He came in in 2018, and when he's, when he came into power, everyone thought that he would be kind of from the same political alignment as the previous government, which was headed by President Rafael Correa.

• 19:35Speaker 01

  But when Lenin Moreno came into power, he basically cut ties with Rafael Correa and the whole movement of coreistas, as they are called. And he basically started investing for corruption and he made a lot of moves towards industry and going into a right-wing kind of direction. So everyone was quite surprised.

• 19:54Jack Rhysider?

  And with this sudden change in political alignment, in 2019, the new president Lenin Moreno suddenly wasn't happy with Julian Assange and no longer was willing to give him asylum.

• 20:07Speaker 01

  I was actually on my way to the airport when all of this happened. So basically, I'm a martial artist. And at the time, I was practicing something called bujingkan. And a few months earlier, I had received my black belt and I was planning to go to Japan. And the idea was to go to Japan to train with the grandmaster that still teaches in Japan for this martial art. So I had publicized the fact, I had the tickets bought months before. And early on the morning of the 11th, on the Thursday, I received a message from a few of my friends telling me about what had happened.

• 20:41Jack Rhysider?

  The Foreign Minister and the Interior Minister of Ecuador had given a press conference that morning, and Ola was watching what they said.

• 20:48Speaker 01

  These two people, they were talking about the fact that they had, expulsado is the word they use, but they had thrown out Julian because he was collaborating with enemies of the state inside of Ecuador. And what they were saying in this press conference was that they also had evidence that there were two Russians living in Ecuador that were key members of WikiLeaks and that they were also part of this attempt to destabilize the government.

• 21:17Jack Rhysider?

  And just like that, Julian was under arrest in the UK. After having asylum for seven years, he lost it, and the UK police swooped in on him and took him to jail. It was shocking for the world to see that Julian Assange was arrested.

• 21:33Speaker 01

  I saw this press conference and I didn't really think anything about it. So I continued my preparations for my travels. I was gonna leave at 12:00, midday, and get to the airport. So that's what I did.

• 21:46Jack Rhysider?

  So he goes through the airport, through security, arrives at his gate, sits down, and reads a book. Then he hears an announcement. "Hola, Benny, please come to the gate." He goes up to the gate and they wanted to check his luggage for some reason.

• 21:59Speaker 01

  And this is pretty common, that they ask you to go down to where they managed your luggage and go through it because they're looking for drugs. So that's something that always happens with these trips. So I went there and I had no idea. And when I stood there, about 10 different people came up to me and they were trying to explain to me that they wanted to apprehend me.

• 22:18Jack Rhysider?

  Apprehend them? He's like, "Me? Why? What did I do?"

• 22:23Speaker 01

  These people, they didn't identify themselves. They didn't have any markings on them saying that they were police or who they were. And I was quite confused. At that, at that time, I didn't really speak Spanish well, so I was trying in English to understand what was happening. And, and they were saying that they were stopping me from going on the airplane and that I needed to come with them. At this point, I had no idea why.

• 22:45Jack Rhysider?

  There was a moment where he was able to sneak his phone out, text a friend, "Hey, I'm in trouble. I think I'm being arrested. I need a lawyer immediately. I'm at the airport." And they took him into a little room and he looks at the sign on the room. It says, "Interpol."

• 22:58Speaker 01

  And then they sat me down there. They asked me to put my things away from me, but they still let me keep my phone for some reason. So I was still in contact and I, I managed to get hold of the lawyer and he said he was coming towards the airport to be there. But at that point, after about 10 minutes inside of this room, the person there asked me to put my phone away, that I was not allowed to have the phone and that I needed to put the phone away for my own safety. I had no idea what he meant by that, but basically I had to put the phone on the table. And from that point, I wasn't allowed to, to touch the phone anymore. All of this was a little bit confusing because no one tried to talk to me about what was happening and I kept asking, "Hey, what's going on?

• 23:43Speaker 01

  What's happening?" And they basically didn't say anything. It was also complicated because the people, the person keeping me in this office, he didn't speak in English. So when I wanted to ask questions, he had to go out and get someone from the immigration department that was out in the airport to come back and to, to, to talk to me in English. So, so they didn't really have a translator or anything like that to talk to me at all. And that basically was how I spent the next few hours.

• 24:15Jack Rhysider?

  Hours spent in the Quito airport in this little room. He missed his flight at this point and he has no clue why he's being detained. They weren't asking him questions and they weren't giving him answers. They just kept him in a room with the guy there who didn't speak any English to watch over him. Eventually, someone comes in and tells him they are taking him to the city. And they escort him to a car and they put him in a car and they start to drive off. But then they change their mind and take him back to the airport and send him into that little Interpol room again. He asked if he can call his lawyer and they let him, but only for like one minute.

• 24:49Speaker 01

  At that point, this is the most ridiculous thing. At this point, the guy that was holding me there, he held up a paper in front of me and said that this was the reason I was being held. Now, this paper he held up for five seconds and I couldn't see anything except that my name was badly written. And it said Russo. So this whatever thing they had said Russian and they had the wrong name on it or misspelled name on it. And he held it up to me when I was talking to my lawyer and then he hid it again and I wasn't allowed to see it again.

• 25:24Jack Rhysider?

  Russian? Are the police saying he's Russian? Or are they saying the Russians are out to get him? Or that he's working for Russia? He has so many questions and nobody's answering them. They hold him there at the airport for another five hours. It's now 11:00 PM at night.

• 25:39Speaker 01

  They forced me to stand up and they put handcuffs behind my back. And then they took away all my things from me. I said that I wanted to talk to a lawyer and they said no. I said that I wanted to talk to a person in my family and they said no. And these two are basic rights in Ecuador. And then, basically, what ended up happening was that they put me against the wall and then I had to stand with the wall, like looking at the wall for about 20 minutes. And I don't know what they were doing during this time period. Um, but then finally, they, they, uh, they went to the door. And at the door was a person, uh, reading from a paper.

• 26:20Speaker 01

  Later, I've been, I've been told that this person was trying to read in English. But I had no idea what the person was saying because the English, the pronunciation was so terrible. I, I had no idea what they were saying. And this happened three times with three different people. And, and afterwards I found out, oh, they were trying to read my rights, but they didn't have a translator. Uh, so, so, so they couldn't, uh, they couldn't make use of a translator to actually make sure that I understood. Uh, and then they tried to force me to sign this paper, which I didn't do. And then they took me out to a cop car. They put me in the back of this cop car. And, uh, we sat on this dark parking space outside of the airport and there was no one around. And these two cops were inside of the car and we sat there for three hours in the middle of the night.

• 27:06Jack Rhysider?

  Sitting in a parked cop car for hours through the night? Man, all this sounds highly unusual. I can't imagine that this is how arrests normally happen in Ecuador. Where unidentified people come and they keep you in a room for eight hours. Then they put you in a car to hold you there all night? And the whole time you never know why you're being detained? And they don't even ask you questions to make sure that they've got the right person? They didn't even bring his luggage with him? And he didn't know it, but his lawyer did show up at the airport and he was trying to see Ola. But they were telling his lawyer that he didn't have a right to a lawyer. Which is false. Ecuador law says you are allowed immediate access to a lawyer when you are arrested. In fact, they're even supposed to tell you that you have a right to a lawyer while being arrested.

• 27:50Jack Rhysider?

  And they were telling both Ola and his lawyer that he didn't have a right to a lawyer. It just seems incredibly strange. If he's arrested, then arrest him and take him to jail and tell him what he did wrong. What's with all this waiting around and no explanation? And violating his rights in so many different ways? I mean, how would you hold up? Sitting in the back of a cop car in a dark parking garage, waiting quietly in the dark all night?

• 28:18Speaker 01

  I started getting really scared. Before, I was like more confused, but at this point, I was really scared because no one knew where I was. The lawyers had never showed up. And I was sitting here in the darkness and no one was around. And I was wondering that, because Ecuador has a history of police disappearing people. Uh, there's been some famous cases that I knew about. And at that point, I was thinking that, okay, this is the, this is the time when I disappear, when I get thrown into a ditch somewhere and, and no one knows what, no one will ever find out what happened.

• 28:53Jack Rhysider?

  And are you, so you stayed all night in a car, in the back of a car?

• 28:57Speaker 01

  Uh, no, uh, only until three or four in the morning.

• 29:00Jack Rhysider?

  Okay, but, but I just don't understand what the other person in the car was doing the whole time. Were they just staring out the window, waiting?

• 29:06Speaker 01

  They were just sitting there. Yeah. They were just sitting.

• 29:09Jack Rhysider?

  What a boring job. Whatever they were doing is just so boring.

• 29:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, I think at some point they went out and they were talking a little bit, but then they came back and they were sitting there and they didn't have any radio on, nothing. They weren't doing anything with their mobile phones and absolutely nothing. But yeah, it definitely not a very interesting job, I can, I can imagine.

• 29:32Speaker 01

  But finally, in the middle of the night, around two thirty or three in the middle of the night, they drove me away from the airport and we started driving. And at this point, I wasn't sure if we were driving to my death or, or driving to somewhere else. After a while, we ended up at my apartment building. Uh, I live, uh, on the fourth floor in an apartment building in, in the city of Quito. And, uh, we came there and I could see that there was a bunch of, uh, in Ecuador, we, we have what we call robocops. And, and these are the riot cops. They're dressed all in black and they have masks and, uh, and weapons and they, yeah, they look a little bit like, uh, Robocop. Uh, so there was a bunch of these robocops outside, uh, of my apartment building and other people going in and out.

• 30:13Speaker 01

  And at some point, someone came up to me in the car and I was sitting there and, um... And they showed me a paper, which I didn't understand, and asked me in bad English if I would like to be helpful and allow them into my apartment.

• 30:29Jack Rhysider?

  Helpful? How about some equal respect here? If you can arrange to have ten cops come to the apartment, then you can arrange to have an English translator show up and explain to him what's going on? If you can't give him the courtesy to let him know why he's being arrested, then why should he be helpful to you? Anyway, he refused to let them into his apartment, and he demanded his lawyer again. So at 3:00 AM, he was sitting in a cop car in front of his apartment for another thirty minutes, while the police are talking about what they're gonna do. He wasn't gonna let them in the apartment, so they decided to take him somewhere else. Little did he know, as soon as they drove him away, they just broke into his apartment and seized a bunch of stuff.

• 31:10Speaker 01

  And then they drove me to another place, which was some kind of office environment where several of the cops were working. And basically, I sat there for three hours just without any knowledge, no information, no nothing.

• 31:27Speaker 01

  At some point in the night, around 5:00 in the morning, my luggage had arrived to this office, and they were going through the luggage. But they weren't doing it in front of me. They didn't ask me to verify anything or anything else that I would expect. And then, a few minutes before 6:00 in the morning, one of the people turned on a TV that was sitting on the wall. And at that point, I still didn't understand what was going on. But on the TV, they started showing a news show that was showing images of me, including an image of me from the evening before. And I could see the word hacker. I could see the word Russo, which means Russian, and a few other things. And they'd clearly been taking pictures from my Twitter and from previous speaking engagements

• 32:12Speaker 01

  where I'd been publicly giving talks and stuff like that. So at that point, I understood that this had something to do with computers, but I still didn't know what they were accusing me of or what was actually happening.

• 32:24Jack Rhysider?

  What? It appeared that Ola Binny was being arrested because they thought he was a Russian hacker? This isn't right. Ola is Swedish, not Russian, not affiliated with Russia at all. And he's not a hacker or a criminal. He's the president of a nonprofit who works on privacy tools. He's a programmer. This is all very strange. And God, how could the police tell the media what's going on before even telling him what's going on? It must be so frustrating to find out why you're being arrested by turning on the TV and discovering why. So now it's 6:00 a.m. and he hasn't slept all night.

• 32:58Speaker 01

  No, no, no, no, God, no. I mean, the first half of the night, I was afraid for my life. And then, and then like when I came to this office, I was just, I was just exhausted. But I was so confused and didn't know what was gonna happen. And at this point, still, I had not been able to talk to anyone. No one knew where I was.

• 33:18Jack Rhysider?

  They keep him in this office for a total of four hours. Then they put him in the back of a cop car and drive him to a jail. It's more like a temporary holding cell. They take him out of the car and walk him into the building.

• 33:30Speaker 01

  And when I came in there, I had the relief of seeing my friend, who I also work with, Sara, and one of my lawyers that were there waiting for me. But they were not allowed to speak to me and the cops took me directly into the holding cells.

• 33:48Speaker 01

  In the holding cells, once again, they tried to force me into signing papers that I didn't really understand. They said that this was to acknowledge that I had known my rights. But since I didn't know my rights and clearly they weren't really respecting my rights, they, I didn't sign it. And then they basically threw me into these holding cells, which are basically three big, kind of, cement holes with, with a big door and space for maybe 12 or 15 people. And I was sitting there with like maybe 10 people. And this was in the morning, night, Thursday and Friday. So all of these people that had been caught out on parties or for small drug charges or things like that.

• 34:32Speaker 01

  Everyone speaking Spanish and I had no idea what they were saying.

• 34:38Jack Rhysider?

  So he sat in this jail. He called it a dungeon. Still not sleeping. And hours passed by there. Eventually, to his surprise, the Swedish consular shows up. See, in Ecuador, if a foreigner is arrested, the police have to immediately notify the foreign embassy, which the Ecuadorian police didn't do right away. It wasn't until the next day that they notified the Swedish embassy, which I think should have been a pretty big clue to the police that they're not dealing with a Russian, they're dealing with a Swedish man. I mean, can you imagine calling the Swedish embassy and say, "Hello, we've arrested a Russian hacker"? So this Swedish consular came to the jail to see what was going on.

• 35:13Speaker 01

  I finally got to talk to him. He didn't really know what was going on. And then finally, a criminal lawyer showed up. And because the other lawyer I got to see was a corporate lawyer, because we didn't have any criminal lawyers. We didn't know that we needed criminal lawyers. So finally, at 10 or 11, I got to speak to a criminal lawyer that was assigned to my case. And his name is Carlos, Carlos Soria. And he told me that we have no idea what is going on. They haven't shown him anything. And I told him the story of everything that had happened, but he couldn't really tell me anything.

• 35:46Jack Rhysider?

  How frustrating. How infuriating. Back into the holding cell he goes with no answers to anything. It's now been 24 hours since his initial arrest, and he's still absolutely clueless as to why he's arrested. And he's trying to think if there's something that he did that would have caused all this.

• 36:06Speaker 01

  I was thinking about everything, and I just couldn't make sense of it.

• 36:10Jack Rhysider?

  He's now been awake for over 30 hours. Tired as hell. But at 11:00 PM, they take him to see the judge. Yeah, at 11:00 PM. Because there's a legal requirement that he must see a judge within 24 hours of being arrested. So it had to be the middle of the night, I guess. Anyway, great, this is super. Surely, he'll get some answers here. Surely, he can see what evidence they have on him and what crime they're saying he did.

• 36:34Speaker 01

  In Ecuador, all the proof is stored in a physical folder called the expediente. That's all the evidence. And it's the prosecutors that are in charge of this expediente where all the proof is in. And my lawyers had basically gotten to see this expediente five minutes before going in front of the judge. So there was like, okay, how are we gonna make a defense out of this? Basically, uh, what we found out was that they had received a phone call to an anonymous tip line saying that, uh, I was one of the two Russians that the Minister of the Interior had mentioned earlier, and that I was escaping to the airport in order to escape from the

• 37:17Speaker 01

  country. So this is what they claimed was the whole reason why they arrested me. They they had no other evidence. They had absolutely nothing. What they accused me of in this hearing in front of the judge, uh, was, uh, an attack against the integrity of computer systems. That that's the name of the of the charge. But they didn't tell me which computer system, when I'd attacked it, how I'd had had attacked it. They basically just said, okay, this is the crime you're accused of. But they didn't tell me anything else, and there was no information of anything else. And, uh, basically, my lawyer tried to show that I was a martial artist on the way to Japan in a completely legitimate, uh,

• 37:59Speaker 01

  reason for leaving the country, that I was a software developer, et cetera, et cetera. But, uh, at the end of this, I didn't really understand the discussion, but at the end of this, um, the consul turned around to me and said, okay, it looks like you're going to jail.

• 38:14Jack Rhysider?

  Well, hold on, hold on. I do want to ask a question here. The, um, the fact that they got you as Russian, couldn't you simply say, listen, I am not Russian, you have the wrong guy. This you you cannot like arrest me for being Russian because I'm not Russian?

• 38:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, that that is completely true, and that's a very good point. And I I forgot to tell you, but we found some documents later, uh, that, um, basically, uh, said that the first set of documents say that I'm Russian. The next set of documents says that I'm Swiss, uh, because in in Spanish, uh, Swedish and Swiss are very similar. So they must have gotten so confused that they first thought I was Russian, then Swiss, and then finally they got it right and and found out that I was Swedish. So there are documents that show kind of this evolution of understanding, um, through the whole through the whole story. But no, they they didn't care about that at all.

• 39:07Jack Rhysider?

  So they put him back in the holding cells for the next two days. Then they took him to prison. I guess they thought he was a flight risk, or he would leave the country, or was going to destroy evidence. So they wanted to keep him in jail until a trial could take place.

• 39:21Speaker 01

  So yeah, so they took me there. And that's where I stayed for the next 68 days in prison.

• 39:31Jack Rhysider?

  Holy cow, what is happening here? I mean, Ola has done no crime whatsoever. But the police have arrested him at the airport and violated so many of his rights and put him in prison with no way out? I mean, this could have been you or me. Ola is an innocent person, but now his life is completely ruined.

• 39:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, so the prison time is, when I first came there, I had this idea of prison from American television series and movies. I thought that it was going to be a little bit like that. And Ecuadorian prison is nothing like that at all. It was complete chaos. The prisoners are basically running the place. You get two visitors per week. The water is not drinkable. So your friends and family has to buy water on the outside and send in to you. It was a crazy situation, and I was lucky to get out of it alive. Because, so I was there from April 13 until June 20. And during May was a period where Ecuador started having prison riots. And the most famous example kicked off in one of the big prisons,

• 40:42Speaker 01

  where prisoners killed other prisoners and then hacked off their heads and played soccer with their heads. And this was happening at the same time as I was in prison.

• 40:55Jack Rhysider?

  So the police raided his apartment and took a lot of his computers. And they physically took them apart to try to analyze the hard drives and do forensics on them. But they were soon met with a huge problem. Ola was a privacy advocate. And he encrypts his hard drives and he uses throwaway operating systems and anonymous accounts and stuff like that. The police were absolutely no match to his privacy practices. They couldn't get into anything.

• 41:22Speaker 01

  And the thing is, of course, I work with security. So I had encrypted hard drives everywhere and everything was encrypted and had good passwords. So they didn't get anywhere with any of that stuff. And at that point, the prosecutor, he was like, he was asking if I would be so kind to collaborate with them. Because in Ecuador, you don't have to give up the password to your devices if you don't want to. You have the right to deny that. It's not like in the UK, for example, where they can force you by putting you in prison if you don't give up the password. So I said, if they tell me what they think I have done, what I'm accused of, what computer I'm supposed to have broken into.

• 42:00Jack Rhysider?

  Yeah, that's my first reaction too. They said, could you be so kind to help us?

• 42:04Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 42:05Jack Rhysider?

  And I was like, well, could you be so kind to tell me why I'm here and talk to me like a person?

• 42:09Speaker 01

  Exactly. Yeah, no, no, no, that's exactly what we did.

• 42:12Jack Rhysider?

  Of course, they didn't want to share any information with him. So they were at a standstill and they couldn't get into his devices.

• 42:18Speaker 01

  In the beginning of May, I was able to go in front of another court with three judges at this time to do the appeal. And this appeal was specifically not for my, not for the whole case, but it was an appeal for the prisión preventiva, for the imprisonment. And we had a long, long hearing. And in this, and in this case, it was actually quite good because a lot of people came, like a lot of media and a lot of my friends and everything, everyone came to support me. At this point, my family, all my family live in Sweden. But at this point, my, my mother and father had come and they were at the hearing and everything. So I was, I was feeling like, okay, this has been three horrible weeks, but at least now I'm gonna get some justice.

• 43:00Speaker 01

  Because of course, at the, at the next level, obviously, I'm gonna get justice. Or at least that's what I thought. So.

• 43:09Speaker 01

  Basically, the prosecution basically said that their case, they began by explaining everything that had happened with Julian. And their explanation is that Julian was interfering in the affairs of other countries, and that's why they were drawing him out. And then they kind of jumped into this thing that I had visited Julian many times in the embassy. But they never really made the connection between anything else. And then, I kid you not, I had programming books in my, in my home. And they used these as evidence that I was a dangerous hacker. And they were not even using like the right kinds of books for that stuff. They were just using like the basics of programming Python or like super basic books.

• 43:54Speaker 01

  And also, yes, I had a few books about WikiLeaks. I had a book about Stuxnet. I had a book about the Panama Papers. All of these books were literally evidence against me. They literally thought that I was too dangerous to be outside because of the books. And there was still no evidence against me. There was still no clarification about what crime I'd committed. And at the end of the day, the three judges decided to send me back to prison.

• 44:22Jack Rhysider?

  Sheesh, this wasn't even to determine if he was guilty or innocent. It was just to recommend that he come out of prison until he's found guilty. You know, innocent until proven guilty. But no, the judges made him go back to prison and wait for his trial?

• 44:38Speaker 01

  And then, three weeks later, we asked for bail. Because Ecuador has this law that you have to be able to get out of prison on bail, unless your crime has more than five years as punishment, which mine didn't. My punishment would have been three to five years in total, according to what they were accusing me of, this attack against the integrity of computer systems. And if you have committed a crime against minors or against family members, then you can't get bail. And if you try to do money laundering, you can't get bail. But everyone else has the right to get bail. And the only, the only question for the judge would be, okay, how big the bail should be? So we went in front of this judge, and once again, I had hope.

• 45:22Speaker 01

  Because my lawyer told me, like legally speaking, there is no way they can deny this. At this point, they didn't take me to the courtroom. Instead, I was forced to do it from the prison. And they did it in such a way that there was no media allowed or anything like that. So at this point, they were trying to hide the whole stuff. And basically, what happened was that the judge, she denied the request for bail. But the reason was very interesting. She said, because the bail has to be proportionate to the amount of victims. But what she said is because the prosecutor hasn't defined what the crime is, she can't know who the victims are. And because she can't know who the victims are, she has no way of setting the bail amount.

• 46:05Speaker 01

  And for that reason, there was no possibility for me to get bail.

• 46:09Jack Rhysider?

  Wow, that is wild that even the judge doesn't know who you've wronged.

• 46:14Speaker 01

  Exactly. I'm in the country of insane troll logic at this point.

• 46:20Jack Rhysider?

  Okay, but that's one thing, it's insane. But there's another thing that I think is a clue here of like, wait a minute. Even the judge doesn't know what I've done. This is a tell. This is a tell of some kind. This tells me that they're not just keeping it secret from me, but they're keeping it secret from other people. And what's the reason for that? Like, you must have thought of that.

• 46:46Speaker 01

  Well, actually, what I was thinking and what we were all thinking is that they didn't have a crime. They thought that they would be able to arrest me and that they would be able to find something later. But they didn't find something, and that's why they couldn't actually go forward.

• 47:03Jack Rhysider?

  This is even more frustrating now. He's been arrested for some strange, unknown reason, maybe only because he knows Julian Assange? And to think about sitting in prison without actually committing a crime? The prosecutor said that he was in trouble for an assault on the integrity of computer systems, but they didn't list a victim or show any evidence to prove that he's done such a thing. It's almost like they made up some crime to try to pin that on him later. And at this point, he's been in prison for months.

• 47:30Speaker 01

  So anyway, what ended up happening is that we did the final recourse, which is a constitutional recourse called the habeas corpus.

• 47:38Jack Rhysider?

  Oh, nice. Yeah, habeas corpus is the perfect tool here. It's a constitutional right that protects people who got arrested to challenge the court by saying, "If I've committed a crime, I demand you show me proof." And if they can't show proof, then you can say your rights have been violated, and they could potentially let you go.

• 47:56Speaker 01

  So we got in front of three judges, once again, on the 20th of June, and we presented the information about what had happened when I was arrested.

• 48:04Jack Rhysider?

  His lawyer listed all the violations that took place during his arrest, and there were dozens of them. Cops didn't identify themselves, they didn't say what he was charged with, they illegally broke into his apartment and seized his luggage, they didn't tell the Swedish Embassy within the 24-hour window, and they wouldn't let him have access to his lawyer, and dozens more violations of his rights.

• 48:22Speaker 01

  And finally, we actually won that one. But they sent me back to prison, because it's a bureaucracy, and you have to follow the bureaucracy, all the rules of the bureaucracy and all that stuff. So I was sent back to prison, okay, I've won, but I'm still in prison. But then, a few hours later, like at 10:00, 11:00 in the evening, my lawyers had managed to convince the judges to issue an order to immediately release me. And at that point, I came out and my friends had organized organized bodyguards, because they were being followed by people. So we got into a car, I had bodyguards, and suddenly I was out. And I can't even describe, like, it was a very weird feeling being outside

• 49:04Speaker 01

  after 70 days of being stuck in prison.

• 49:08Jack Rhysider?

  Okay, he's finally let out of prison, but he's still facing trial. He still has to go to court and plead his side to see if they think he's guilty or innocent.

• 49:16Speaker 01

  But the case didn't go away, because even though they violated my rights, habeas corpus is just about fixing the immediate problem. The immediate problem was that I was in prison, so because they violated my rights when they arrested me, they let me go. But it didn't have an impact on the rest of the process. So the process continued.

• 49:34Jack Rhysider?

  So he's got some rules he has to follow. One, he can't leave the country, which, okay, he's facing legal issues, I could see that. Two, he's not allowed to have a bank account. And three, he has to check in with the prosecutor's office every week to show he's cooperating with authorities. Like physically show up and check in. And he's still baffled at what's all this about? He hasn't done anything illegal. So he knows they're not going to find any crime that he's committed. But at the same time, it's super scary to face charges when the government is dead set on finding some crime that you've done. And why are they dead set on sending him to prison? It's all a mystery to him.

• 50:12Speaker 01

  While I was still in prison, the US sent an official request to interview me. So we said, sure, following the Ecuadorian rules, we're fine. But the US withdrew their request. But over the years, I have received notifications from Google. I received notifications from Automattic, the WordPress company. I've received notifications from Apple. I don't think I've received notifications from Meta. So those three companies at least gave information to the FBI and to DOJ about my accounts. So somewhere in the background, there is a US presence, but we still don't know exactly why.

• 50:56Jack Rhysider?

  Man, what is happening? Why are there multiple countries investigating him now? And keep in mind, the Ecuadorian authorities never gave him back his phone or computers, even after being let out of prison.

• 51:07Speaker 01

  They took all of that from me on the airport. They took everything I had, except for the clothes I was wearing. So including, I mean, I'm one of those weird people that have, I have USB drives and YubiKeys around my neck, and they took all of that stuff. But since I have good password practices, none of that stuff was enough for them to get into any of my devices.

• 51:29Jack Rhysider?

  In 2019, what were you, what were you doing there to keep safe, right? So you had YubiKey, that's two-factor authentication, the USB drives around your neck. How are those encrypted?

• 51:40Speaker 01

  Most of them were Tails drives with persistent modules because I was using Tails a lot for high-sensitive stuff.

• 51:45Jack Rhysider?

  Tails is a version of the Linux operating system, which is a total amnesiac. It's built so that when you reboot, everything you did gets erased. It's made for extra-sensitive operations or for those who have very strict privacy practices.

• 51:57Speaker 01

  For the regular computers, I was mostly using Debian versions and I was using just standard Lux for the hard drives. So it wasn't anything advanced. I mean, basically, my passwords are composed of stuff from the Yubiki, composed of things that I have in my head, combined with that to make it stronger. And then I was just using key pass for everything else.

• 52:18Jack Rhysider?

  So you say that you were using Tails a lot for high-sensitive stuff. What was some of the high-sensitive stuff you were working on?

• 52:27Speaker 01

  Well, a lot of that stuff had to do with, like, for example, I was talking to people all around the world, like Dan Greenwald, for example. I was in touch with him on and off because at one point, we were in discussions for me to come in and look at the Snowden archives. That never ended up happening, but I was in contact with him, for example. And that's the kind of contact that I don't really want to do from a normal machine.

• 52:51Jack Rhysider?

  Well, his privacy practices all paid off big time because the Ecuadorian authorities couldn't get into anything. And the clock was ticking on them to find things, too.

• 52:59Speaker 01

  In general, the prosecutor and the defense only has 90 days to find evidence. In my case, it was extended to 120 days. And this time in August was like the last month. And when August was over, they wouldn't have any possibility of finding new evidence and adding new evidence to the process.

• 53:17Jack Rhysider?

  They were determined to find some evidence on him within the time period, but they were really struggling. They were desperately looking for something they could find on him to charge him with.

• 53:26Speaker 01

  I have been surveilled by different parts of the government. They are always following me. Sometimes on motorcycles. Sometimes they are in cars with polarized windows and without the license plate. They have these very specific cars that are from the intelligence department of the judicial police here. And they keep following me.

• 53:48Jack Rhysider?

  He sent me photos that he's taken of people following him.

• 53:50Speaker 01

  One of the pictures you can see is a picture of one of those cars with a guy pushing out and holding an antenna outside of the window. And this is one of those, like, I don't know, meter-long antennas. And this car with this antenna was standing outside of my home, pointing at my window for like 30 minutes.

• 54:11Speaker 01

  So they were trying to, I don't know what they were trying to do. The other thing that also happened was that in my apartment, I started seeing Wi-Fi networks with different strange names with my name in them. And I never used my own name in my Wi-Fi names. And they were coming and going. And it's clear that the police were trying to convince me to connect to these open networks because they were the only networks that didn't have any password on them.

• 54:39Jack Rhysider?

  They were really determined to find something on him.

• 54:42Speaker 01

  The thing is, they managed to get video recordings from the surveillance cameras inside of my building. So at some point, when I was standing in front of an elevator, I put in my code. I didn't have a strong PIN code. It was just eight digits. And the cameras inside of my building were apparently good enough that they could see the PIN codes on my screen.

• 55:01Jack Rhysider?

  Wow. By looking at the security cameras from his apartment building, they figured out his PIN code on his phone? Man, I just got chills listening to that. Because now I'm realizing that I've unlocked my phone a million times in view of a security camera. Elevators often have cameras in them. And I pull out my phone in elevators often and check what's going on on my phone. And you might say, I don't need to worry about protecting my PIN in front of cameras because I don't break the law. Oh, yeah, well, Ola didn't break the law either. What's your plan when your own government comes after you? The more they can look into your private life, the more likely they're going to find something bad that you did.

• 55:44Speaker 01

  In August, they managed to get into my phone. Of course, the funny part about this is that it's clearly not legal for them to get access to the video cameras that work for our protection and use this for this purpose. According to the laws of Ecuador, this is a violation and shouldn't have been possible. My phone was taken from me under illegal circumstances. The habeas corpus already showed that there were illegal circumstances. So in theory, the phone shouldn't have been possible to use as evidence. But the judges later on ignored all of this.

• 56:18Jack Rhysider?

  So once they got into his phone, they started looking through it. They used a tool called Celebrite to analyze his phone, which is a tool used by law enforcement to extract and analyze data from digital devices like phones. And so with this, they were able to grab everything. Ola's lawyers asked for a court date so they could see what the investigators found on the phone. And the technician brought the forensic computer into the courtroom to show them what they found.

• 56:42Speaker 01

  I can tell you, by the way, that the version of Celebrite they were using was like seven years old. So it didn't have support for Signal, which is where I had most of my conversations. But what was interesting was also that they basically plugged this phone and Celebrite into a regular desktop computer that was running a cracked version of Windows, that was running Word that was expired and that had like, I think I could see on the desktop about 10 different games. That was on this machine that they were using to exhibit evidence to us.

• 57:13Jack Rhysider?

  Games on there. The fact they had games is the funniest part.

• 57:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, it's like, I didn't even know what to think about it.

• 57:22Jack Rhysider?

  I'll tell you what I think about it. Having outdated forensics tools, unlicensed version of Windows, expired Microsoft Word, and video games on this computer indicates to me that the forensics team has zero accountability or integrity. They aren't professionals or serious. You don't play video games on a computer that's collecting evidence for crimes. That chain of custody is extremely important and evidence should be treated carefully and never tampered with. Yet whoever had this computer did not care what the state of their computer was in and probably didn't care too much about their job either or following the rules.

• 57:55Speaker 01

  Celebrite had generated 40,000-page PDF with all the content of my phone. Because that's apparently what Celebrite does, but that's not so helpful. So we started looking at this from page to page to page. And then the prosecutor, he was just like, "This is taking too long. Please just add all of this to the expediente." And what that means is that he basically asked for all those 40,000 pages to be added as evidence. Uh, and obviously, like, there, there were nothing, nothing sensitive from a security standpoint, but there were private conversations with girlfriends, with my family, like, information about, I don't know, health history of my family, stuff like that. So there were definitely sensitive things inside of that.

• 58:40Speaker 01

  And he was just, let's add all of it to the pile of evidence. And what's important to know here is the expediente is public for anyone. Anyone can go into the prosecutor's office and ask for a copy of any expediente. So once you've had it there, it's public forever.

• 58:54Jack Rhysider?

  They were able to argue that, really, all 40,000 pages should not be submitted to public record. And they were able to get it stopped, which is good. But then they requested a copy of this document so that they could look through it and prepare a defense, if there is anything in there.

• 59:08Speaker 01

  So yeah, so we asked to see the evidence on the phone and see if there was anything we could use. They responded back that, no, in order to preserve the privacy of the defendant, we cannot share the information on this phone with his defense. But it turns out that they had access to it. And, and basically, we, we found out that the, the phone and the USB drive is apparently in the safe of this woman, Diana Salazar, who is the prosecutor general of, of the whole country. They are apparently in her safe, inside of that building, and apparently it's still there. And then, th- this is when things take a turn, because a few weeks later, we find out from television,

• 59:51Speaker 01

  we don't find out from, from the legal system, we find out from television that the prosecution has found an image on my phone. And this is the image that I shared with you.

• 1:00:04Jack Rhysider?

  Okay, let me pull it up. It's a photo of a computer screen, taken by a cellphone, it's poor quality. It looks like a terminal window, like maybe Linux computer. And we're looking at the command line here. It looks to me like someone's tried to do a telnet connection to an IP address. And it connects, and it says you are connected to an ISP in Ecuador called CNT. But then it says, what's your username? And nothing is typed in. And then it times out and kicks them back into the home directory, which is called Olavini.

• 1:00:36Speaker 01

  So any person with any kind of technical understanding knows that this is a, this is a telnet connection, that where it asks for the username, and no one put anything in, and then it times out. That, that's exactly what it looks like. But the prosecution starts using this, saying that I hacked into the systems of CNT. And they claim that this picture is actually the proof that I hacked into their systems. In fact, they're so confused that they start asking if this IP address has a username Olavini on it, because they think that the prompt at the end of it is not the prompt on the computer making the telnet call. They think it's the prompt of the computer that is running the IP address.

• 1:01:16Jack Rhysider?

  You're making me furious.

• 1:01:19Jack Rhysider?

  So here's my question, though, okay? So this photo is a it looks like maybe taken by a cellphone, especially if it was found on your phone, of a computer screen, because I see the reflection of the screen and a shadow and such. So why did you take this photo?

• 1:01:37Speaker 01

  The funny part is, first of all, you can see on the timestamps, this log information includes the year, which shows that this was taken in October 2015. So first of all, this image has nothing to do with why I was arrested in the first place. Secondly, the funny thing is, I don't even remember taking this photo. Like, it's likely that I did take the photo, but I don't even remember it. I do know what happened after, because this photo came from WhatsApp. And I have a friend, his name is Ricardo, and he's worked with open source and free software in Ecuador for many, many years. And in 2015, he had a contract with CNT, he was working with them.

• 1:02:23Speaker 01

  And basically, the WhatsApp message that I sent with the image is basically, hey, what do you think about this? Or something in that style. And I sent the picture, and the response I got says, "Looks like a router to me, I'll see what I can find out." So that was the only conversation that was around this picture. So the way I interpret this, since I don't remember taking this picture, is that I must have found an open telnet port to the internet, and this is something that is not great for a big corporation like CNT. So I must have thought that, okay, I can tell Ricardo about this, and he can escalate it to the right person. And... That's what I, that's what I think is what happened.

• 1:03:03Jack Rhysider?

  Well, this is it. The Ecuadorian prosecutors thought this was the smoking gun. Clearly, he's connected to an ISP in this photo, which clearly he's not even tried to log into it. I mean, if you're going to attempt to log into something, I would at least think that you would put in your username, right? But he doesn't even put in a username to try to log in. But that didn't matter. The prosecutor was going to make this his crime. So Ecuador was now charging him with access without permission to a computer system or telecommunications system. Well, in my opinion, this is going to be a slam dunk case for Ola. He's being charged with access. The photo, the only evidence they have on him clearly shows he doesn't access it.

• 1:03:43Jack Rhysider?

  Well, I, I mean, I'm, I'm perplexed by what the, what the government even thinks you've done wrong at this point, right? They thought you were a Russian hacker and at this point, you're not Russian. They don't have any evidence of you hacking. So haven't they, like, don't they think maybe we just have the wrong guy? Like, let's really look at this analytically. We're not seeing any evidence on this guy. Like, why, why would they have kept you? I mean, from their perspective, what do you think was the reason why they were holding you?

• 1:04:12Speaker 01

  Well, we, we have one theory. In March of 2019, there was a very big leak of documents in Ecuador called the INA papers. And the INA papers were basically financial documents showing that the president, his name is Lenin Moreno, his family were hiding a lot of money in, in tax paradises and all kinds of bad stuff. And Lenin Moreno was furious about these papers. And, and some people say that the reason why Julian was thrown out is, out is because WikiLeaks

• 1:04:46Speaker 01

  tweeted a link to the INA papers. Now, the INA papers didn't come from WikiLeaks as far as we know, but Julian posted a link to it. And Lenin Moreno was very upset about this. So basically what we've heard is that he told Romo to get him the person responsible for this. Now, here is where it gets stupid. The secret intelligence organization in Ecuador was called the Senai. So Senai was basically like an internal NSA, an internal CIA that were spying on everyone inside of Ecuador.

• 1:05:23Speaker 01

  Senaien had a source, a secret source called El Russo. So that was their name for the source. And apparently, the way we've heard it told is that the whole Ina Papers thing happened because El Russo published these papers. So this was like an internal scandal inside of the Senaien, doing an attack against the president with these Ina Papers.

• 1:05:48Jack Rhysider?

  El Russo meaning the Russian.

• 1:05:50Speaker 01

  The Russian, exactly. So, basically, what seems to have happened is that Romo went to the cops and to everyone, saying that, "Okay, we need El Russo." And then, the day before I was arrested, there was a meeting where some of the cops, high-up cops, presented a photo of me, saying that I was El Russo. But there were other people around the table that knew who the source was, and said, "No, no, no, he is not El Russo." Romo ignored all of that, and that's what set in motion all of the stuff that happened afterwards. Basically, I became a scapegoat for the president, for the whole thing with... Actually, I served as a scapegoat for two things.

• 1:06:35Speaker 01

  First, I served as a scapegoat for the Ina Papers, but they never charged me with that. They never actually accused me of the Ina Papers. But they also used it as a way of explaining what happened with Julian, why they threw out Julian. So basically, they were saying that Julian Assange was thrown out of the embassy because he was working with Olabin in order to destabilize the government. So I was politically useful for the political class in Ecuador to have as an excuse or as a scapegoat for these different events.

• 1:07:09Jack Rhysider?

  They were accusing you of destabilizing the government?

• 1:07:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's what Romo said in that press conference. Legally speaking, I was never accused of that.

• 1:07:20Jack Rhysider?

  What an awful situation to be in. To be a political scapegoat? He's never gonna win this. I mean, if the president is like, "Bring whoever leaked this to justice", then the authorities better do something, or they're gonna face embarrassment. So it seems like the authorities just grabbed someone who looked like it, just to please the higher-ups. But they caught someone. But if he's found innocent, the higher-ups are gonna get upset all over again. So they absolutely must find something Ola is guilty of in order to appease the corrupt politicians. And there's just no winning move for anyone. No wonder judges are confused and cops can't figure out what they're supposed to do with him. No wonder nobody is explaining anything to him, because they purposely arrested the wrong man

• 1:08:05Jack Rhysider?

  in order to make him a scapegoat. I don't see how this will ever end for Ola. I think he's gonna be dealing with this for decades. He was let out of prison in 2019, but he's required to check in weekly to the prosecutor's office by going down there in person to show himself. And years go by of him doing that.

• 1:08:30Speaker 01

  So it went really slowly, but finally, in January of 2022, we went to trial. And at that point, my team and me, we had asked some friends around the world to serve as expert witnesses. So I had four friends of mine from different places serve as expert witnesses. One of them is Roger Dingeldine. He's one of the co-creators of Tor. And another one is DMA. That was one of the kind of original people for cybersecurity. He was the person that ran bug tracks for a long time. And a few other people. Basically, these people, like Roger was there because they were saying in the accusation

• 1:09:12Speaker 01

  that using Tor is a sign of me being a criminal. You only use Tor if you're a criminal. So Roger was there basically to explain that no tour has many uses. And the others were there to explain how Telnet works, like how a connection works. And like, you have to realize, these judges, they're like fifty, sixty years old, all of them. They have absolutely no technical knowledge.

• 1:09:39Jack Rhysider?

  It's not just the judges, but the investigators too had video games on their computers that they were using to investigate your case with.

• 1:09:47Speaker 01

  Exactly. Not one had any technical understanding. So basically, this was a big challenge.

• 1:09:56Jack Rhysider?

  Guess how long his trial took to complete? I mean, just take a wild guess. Go ahead, say a duration of time.

• 1:10:04Speaker 01

  We had to pause the trial and then take it up again three times. So the trial finally ended in 2023. So the whole trial took a year.

• 1:10:13Jack Rhysider?

  A whole year. God, how excruciating. For a trial to last this long with absolutely no evidence on him is absurd.

• 1:10:22Speaker 01

  The good thing is that at the end of all this, these three judges unanimously, they declared that I was innocent. So they, and they made a written declaration that was quite good. Because the thing that I've been worried about, my case is a bad case, not just for me, but it's a very bad case for cybersecurity, cybersecurity researchers in the country. So when this result came in, I was actually quite happy because they wrote a lot of stuff that would serve as protection for future cybersecurity researchers in the country.

• 1:10:54Jack Rhysider?

  Oh yeah, a lot of people speculated that the reason all this happened is because Ola is a privacy activist, creating tools to keep the government from spying on you. So you could see how this could upset the government. So he was particularly happy to see that the judges used language, which would protect future researchers from getting in trouble.

• 1:11:12Speaker 01

  But sadly, what ended up happening is that the prosecutors, they appealed the decision.

• 1:11:21Jack Rhysider?

  Of course, they appealed. They are never going to let him go. They have to keep him in legal trouble, or else their house of cards is gonna fall down. So a new trial date was set, this time for a whole year later.

• 1:11:36Speaker 01

  A year ago, in, it was in the beginning of April last year, I was in front of three judges that was from the provincial level.

• 1:11:44Jack Rhysider?

  But this time, it didn't go his way. The judges found him guilty. But they didn't find him guilty of the charge that he was on trial for. He was on trial for unauthorized access to a computer. But the judges changed his charge and found him guilty of attempted unauthorized access to a computer. They added the attempted part all on their own.

• 1:12:06Speaker 01

  So in Ecuador, you're not allowed to change the accusation. If you're accused, someone will be convicted for that, or they will not be convicted. And these judges, they did a very, very bad thing. Because what they said in their decision is that they said that because I had the knowledge to break in, that's enough to call this an attempt. So only the fact that I had the knowledge was enough to say that this was, they used the word tentativa, that this was unauthorized access. Just because I had the possibility and I knew the tools.

• 1:12:39Jack Rhysider?

  Ah, it's like a circus this court. It's a bunch of clowns running the show. How can the prosecutors violate so many of his rights and get away with it? How can the judges change his charge and find him guilty of something else entirely? But even all that aside, simply having the knowledge of how to do a telnet connection is enough to convict someone of attempted hacking in Ecuador? Come on, this is killing me. Of course, now he has to appeal this. And so he said to the court, "This is ridiculous. Can we please get this sorted? You've arrested an innocent man. I'm appealing this. Let's take this to the next level."

• 1:13:15Speaker 01

  And we sent in that request for appeal in July of 2024, and the judges have not responded since then.

• 1:13:25Speaker 01

  So they're basically just not responding.

• 1:13:27Jack Rhysider?

  And this is what I mean. He's never going to escape this legal battle. The authorities, the prosecutors, the judges, they all know he's innocent. But he's a political scapegoat. So he's got to stay tangled up in this legal battle for optics of some sort. And it especially looks good if his last trial found him guilty. So I'm willing to bet there's never going to be a new trial for him. He's going to remain in this limbo of being guilty, but also not being in prison for a long time to come.

• 1:13:59Speaker 01

  I've been in this situation for six years since I came out of prison. For six years, I've been living with constant surveillance. And because of this, my friends decided that I needed protection because we don't know what their goal is. So I have been living with bodyguards and I don't leave my... I'm not allowed to leave my apartment without bodyguards, basically. So I've been living like that for six years now. They're so afraid of losing face, so they don't want to stop now because they're afraid that they will look bad. So that's why this process continues because all of these powerful people, like the president of the country, literally went out on public television saying that I was a criminal. He, while I was in prison, this was in April of 2019.

• 1:14:42Speaker 01

  I was in prison and he was saying that I was hacking in the airport while, when I was arrested. That's what he literally said to the whole country. And of course, we have pictures that show that when I was arrested, I was reading a book. So unless you call it hacking to read a book.

• 1:15:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, and then he was also saying that I didn't have any training equipment with me. But actually, in the lists that the police made of all my belongings is all of my training equipment. So when the president of the country goes out and lies to the whole population about you, it's a position where they can lose a lot of face. And it wasn't just him. It was Romo and many other people that have gone out publicly and put their name on the fact that they think that I am a criminal. So for this reason, I, like, I've been stuck in this and I don't know when it's going to end, to be honest. But I believe that, honestly, they would never have done this now. But since they're stuck in this situation, they just don't want to lose face.

• 1:15:46Jack Rhysider?

  And can you leave the country now?

• 1:15:49Speaker 01

  No, no, no, and I still have to present myself at the prosecutor's office every week. I still have no access to my bank accounts. And I mean, I'm basically living with the help of my friends because I use their bank accounts to be able to pay things.

• 1:16:04Jack Rhysider?

  What is the, what is the public opinion of you?

• 1:16:06Speaker 01

  I mean, that's a great question. And from the beginning, I had a lot of, so I'm very lucky because I have a lot of international friends. I have friends all around the world. And when I was arrested, a lot of the international community immediately came out to support me. The EFF has been particularly supportive and the Tor project because those are the people I work closely with and we know each other. So, but Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, or like, there's been more than a hundred different international organizations that have come out in my support. And they came out in my support immediately and it was very, it was very heartening to feel that support when I was still in prison and worried about what was gonna happen.

• 1:16:50Speaker 01

  Here in Ecuador, it's changed. Basically, from the beginning, the government had all the narrative because I wasn't, I wasn't outside. I couldn't do any interviews. I wasn't allowed to talk to the press or anything like that. So during the first year or so, everyone was like, oh, you're that hackler. And basically, that's what was happening in the minds of basically everyone. But I've had a team helping me, that was helping me with the defense. They were also giving advice on how to change the public opinion and how to do interviews in a good way. And I'm really, really happy to say that basically, the most of the population in Ecuador are actually on my side at this point.

• 1:17:34Speaker 01

  They just think about me as the poor software developer that got thrown in prison by the previous government, so. Right now, I'm feeling very supported. And actually, that's why, so I told you I have the NGO, but actually, I run another organization as well, which is called Seguridad Digital ESE, which is basically a cybersecurity company. We do both offensive, uh, offensive security work and defensive security work. And for the last year or so, uh, I've been able to find work doing that kind of stuff to, to finance the NGO on the side. And the fact that I'm able to do that kind of work and people are comfortable allowing me to do penetration testing or, or security audits without any trouble means that they,

• 1:18:18Speaker 01

  they don't really believe any of the accusations.

• 1:18:21Jack Rhysider?

  Are you recognized on the street in Ecuador?

• 1:18:23Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, all the time, all the time. Yesterday, I was at an event and I, I spent probably 30 minutes, people taking pictures together with me. And, and I get regularly recognized when I go to the supermarket or, or anything like that.

• 1:18:37Jack Rhysider?

  Ola lives in fear of the possibility that any day, they might suddenly deny his appeal and immediately take him to prison. After all, he was found guilty of attempted hacking. So it's possible the police could just come and lock him up at any moment. And this kind of stuff gives him panic attacks when he starts thinking about it. It's really hard to get to the truth of the story. I mean, to figure out exactly what it is that you're being charged of and what they think you're guilty of is still not even entirely clear that you're...

• 1:19:06Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:19:07Jack Rhysider?

  It's, you know, they're, they're accusing you of attempted hacking, of, of... What was my target? Who did I, who hurt the victim? Bring the victim forward. And, and so if that's not the case, if it is because, well, the, the president doesn't like whistleblowers and they're just gonna blame you for being a whistleblower, then we, you know, and, and now that it's turned out that you're not the actual whistleblower, the, the government doesn't wanna be embarrassed for, you know, saying publicly that you're the one who did it, and so we're just going to carry on with it anyway, is a whole nother world of, of... It's almost conspiracy theory stuff, to imagine what the government thinks without actually knowing what the government thinks. You're, you're just making stuff up at that point. And I hate to indulge in that, but there's no other road here

• 1:19:52Jack Rhysider?

  that I can go down to be, to make sense of this story.

• 1:19:55Speaker 01

  You know, I completely feel you, I completely understand you, because to be honest, I'm not sure if I buy any of the explanations I've given you. Like, these are the explanations that we have any kind of, like, possibility that they might be true. But I don't know if they're true, and they don't explain some other stuff that we've heard. Like, for example, we've heard that CNT was very close to the US Embassy, and that the US Embassy instructed CNT to continue with the case against me, for example. And we've heard other things that keep happening that, to be honest, don't necessarily explain everything. One example is a journalist actually published photographs,

• 1:20:35Speaker 01

  and I can identify that these photographs were taken weeks before I was arrested. And if I was under surveillance long before I was arrested, that means that the whole story about the Maria Palermo and the Ina papers and all that stuff must be false. There must be something else behind this. Sadly, we've done Freedom of Information requests, and we've asked all the government entities about what information they have about me, and they all responded that they have no information about me, including the cops that are surveilling me have no information about me. So, I mean, this is the kind of thing that I lie awake during nights, trying to figure out, like, what, why did they do this? What was the purpose? And what are they thinking?

• 1:21:20Speaker 01

  And especially the constant surveillance. Now, six years later, why are they still keeping me under surveillance? It must cost them so much money.

• 1:21:33Jack Rhysider?

  Have you heard of the book The Trial by Franz Kafka? It's a fictional story and meant to be totally absurd, but it's almost the identical story of Olabin. In the book The Trial, a man named Kay is arrested, and they don't tell him why. In fact, they make him feel bad for even asking questions. The people arresting him say, "It's not their job to say why he's under arrest. They're just carrying out orders to arrest him." So they didn't even know why themselves. And they tell him, "Well, you learn everything at your hearing, but when he goes to his hearing, Kay doesn't..." Learn anything about why he's been arrested. Instead, they tell him, "Well, you'll find out at your trial." But then they tell him his trial is super far into the future. In the meantime, they let him go home and do his business as usual.

• 1:22:16Jack Rhysider?

  So he's stuck in this space that they say he's done something illegal, but they won't say what with a looming trial far off into the future. And in the book, Kay stays locked in this legal battle without ever knowing what he did wrong until he dies. Part of why I'm so frustrated about Ola's story is because it feels like no one has accountability for his situation. The cops didn't know why they arrested him, so he can't get clarity there. The prosecutors weren't sure either. They were probably just following orders too. The judges were also in the dark. And when bureaucracy becomes that thick, where you can't find anyone accountable, then you face big problems like this. Innocent people start losing their freedom. Because if everyone's just following orders

• 1:23:01Jack Rhysider?

  and no one takes responsibility or is accountable, then where does truth fit into anything? In my opinion, this Ola Binney case is frivolous. Not because it's weak, but because it was never meant to win. The main objective of a frivolous case is to waste someone's time, money, or energy through court. And that's what makes it so dangerous. You and I can't file a frivolous case to waste someone else's money, but the government can do it. And here's an example of them doing it. They use the process as punishment. When they want to hurt someone, but no, they can't win, they just do this. And I'm still wondering if this is a battle over privacy.

• 1:23:42Jack Rhysider?

  If Ola was helping people stay private and secure and harder to surveil, then I could see how governments could be upset about that. And maybe they thought they could arrest him and find something later to charge him with, but were no match for his own privacy practices. A lot of people think that's the reason why he was arrested. And it's scary to think that those helping us be more private can face legal troubles like this. It's also a bit ironic that Julian Assange was confined to the Ecuadorian embassy for seven years until he was forced out. And now Ola Binney, his friend, has been confined to Ecuador for over six years now, unable to leave, forced to stay there by the government.

• 1:24:24Jack Rhysider?

  In 2021, there were elections for a new president in Ecuador. By that time, Lenin Moreno, the sitting president, had a disastrously low approval rating of 9%. He didn't even try to run. In 2023, Diana Salazar, Ecuador's attorney general, brought forth charges against the ex-president Lenin Moreno. By the way, she's the same person who supposedly has Ola's phone in her safe. She's alleging that Lenin Moreno conducted corruption over the building of some hydroelectric plants. So now the ex-president has his own legal problems where he has to do what the court says. He even has to appear before a prosecutor every few weeks, just like Ola has to. And that's where we're at today.

• 1:25:05Jack Rhysider?

  Both Ola and the ex-president are waiting for the next steps in their legal battles. And we'll see where they both end up. But I sure hope that Ola gets out of all this soon. He didn't break any systems, but the system tried to break him. And maybe it's still trying to do that. But as Kafka wrote, "Logic may indeed be unshakable, but it cannot withstand a man who wants to live."

• 1:25:41Jack Rhysider?

  Thank you so much to Ola Binney for coming on the show and telling us this crazy story. I hope he gets his charges dropped soon and can travel outside Ecuador again someday and not have to worry about this anymore. This episode was created by me, the Control-Alt Delinquent Jack Reesiter. Our editor is the Zero Day Zorro Tristan Ledger, mixing by Proximity Sound, and our intro music is by the mysterious Breakmaster Cylinder. Remember, kids, privacy isn't just something you do once. It's a lifestyle. It's like if you forget to put your pants on one day, people are gonna see your junk. So cover up. This is Darknet Diaries.