242 Neil Strauss and the Uncomfortable Truth About Relationships

"You shouldn't be researching science to decide what to do with your heart." - Neil Strauss If you enjoyed this episode, check out show notes and more at http://lewishowes.com/242 Get more from Lewis! Get my New York Times Bestselling book, Make Money Easy! Get The Greatness Mindset audiobook on SpotifyText Lewis AIYouTubeInstagramWebsiteTiktokFacebookX

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Lewis Howes?

  This is episode number 242 with New York Times bestselling author Neil Strauss. Welcome to the School of Greatness. My name is Lewis Howes, former pro athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur. And each week we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness. Thanks for spending some time with me today. Now let the class begin.

• 0:33Lewis Howes?

  Welcome everyone to the podcast. Very excited about our guest today. And before I dive in, I want to let you know that the book is coming out very, very soon. October 27th, it drops. I already saw photos that people have it in Canada and Asia bookstores, but it drops in the US and everywhere else on October 27th. Greatness is coming at you and so many of you have been posting photos of your receipts to me online for pre-ordering it. You're tagging me on Instagram and Twitter and Facebook. So thank you, thank you, thank you so much for pre-ordering your copy. We have some big names that we are competing against for the New York Times Bestseller List.

• 1:15Lewis Howes?

  And it's going to take all of you supporting, buying a copy, buying three copies, giving a couple to your friends in order for us to make that New York Times Bestseller List and impact people on a greater way by getting the word out there. So thank you guys so much for buying who have already pre-ordered. And if you haven't yet, please go to lewishouse.com/book. That'll take you right to the Amazon page. Or you can go to Barnes and Noble. We are ranked 27th overall on Barnes and Noble the other day. And the rankings continue to go up and up on both Barnes and Noble and Amazon. So thank you guys for all your support. It means the world to me and it's coming out very soon.

• 1:57Lewis Howes?

  Now, this is an interesting episode. It's interesting because I didn't know that it would go this way. We have Neil Strauss on and let me tell you what happened here in a second. Neil Strauss is a seven. Time, New York Times bestselling author. His books, The Game and The Rules of The Game, for which he went undercover in the secret society of pickup artists for two years, made him an international celebrity and an accidental hero to men around the world. And both books topped the New York Times Bestseller List and were number one on Amazon. Now, in his follow-up book that came out just now, it's called The Truth, an uncomfortable book about relationships. And Neil dives into the worlds of sex addiction, non-monogamy,

• 2:40Lewis Howes?

  infidelity and intimacy and explores the hidden forces that cause people to choose each other, stay together and break up. He's seen the good, the bad, the ugly. And he's come to some interesting conclusions about relationships. And I didn't know that it would lead this way. But he ended up digging in deep in an uncomfortable way about how I show up sometimes in previous relationships. And we talk about some things that make me feel uncomfortable. You know, I don't really like talking about the things that are my fears in relationships and the things that hold me back and the things that I need to really look at because it's scary, it's vulnerable and it's, uh, it can be sometimes overwhelming for me. So I think you're going to notice me feeling a little uncomfortable

• 3:25Lewis Howes?

  talking about, you know, some of my flaws and some of the things that I haven't really uncovered yet and the things that I'm still learning about. Uh, so hopefully you enjoy my, my embarrassment, my uncomfortableness and my opening up to talk about some of the fears in relationships in the past that have held me back and what I'm looking at currently to make sure I move forward in a positive, powerful way in all my relationships. So make sure to share this with your friends. If you have anyone who's in this situation or who's going through confusion or anything like that, this is LewisHowes.com/242. Share it with your friends.

• 4:07Lewis Howes?

  And let's go ahead and dive in with the one, the only Neil Strauss.

• 4:15Lewis Howes?

  Welcome everyone back to the School of Greatness Podcast. Very excited about our guest. His name is Neil Strauss. What's up Neil?

• 4:22Speaker 01

  Hey Lewis, thanks for having me on, man.

• 4:24Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, man, I am pumped. You've got a book that just came out called The Truth, an uncomfortable book about relationships. And for me, the subtitle is perfect because I just went through a relationship that I ended a few months ago and was kind of back and forth because I was going through some confusion about it, uncertainty. I really just wanted to take some time to think about it and see how I was feeling. And essentially, it's been uncomfortable throughout the whole process. So this is perfect timing for me to talk to you about it because you wrote a book called The Game, which was a bestseller. And now, and that was all about being a pickup artist. Isn't that correct?

• 5:09Speaker 01

  More or less. It's kind of a that I, yeah, we can say that. But I was a journalist and I was kind of writing for the New York Times. My book editor said, there's this amazing community. And I went underground, kind of not to write a book, but really for myself and learning how to not be the guy in friend zone anymore. And it got out of hand and I ended up doing the game and becoming the number one pickup artist in that world, which is like a dubious accomplishment, obviously.

• 5:35Lewis Howes?

  Right, right. So you were living in that world where you're, you know, learning how to pick girls up and essentially get women to want you and wanted to go on dates with you and get their number and things like that. To what made you stop doing that? And now you're happily married. What made you transition from that world to writing about this book, The Truth, about relationships?

• 5:56Speaker 01

  Sure, man. And I can get into it. And for sure, like, I mean, obviously, if you spend your whole life picking up anybody or anything, except maybe the check. But, you know, if you spend your life picking up anything, it's kind of, that wasn't even a funny joke. I apologize. Edit that out, everybody. If you spend your life picking up anything, like, it's not, it's just pathetic. Like, if I was still doing that 10 years later, it'd almost be pathetic. I mean, I think, but at another level, there's like a deeper level to discuss about it. And maybe as a backward way of getting into like, how I maybe transitioned out of that into... Where I'm at now, let's talk about your relationship. Are you open to it? Because literally, I'm sure whatever you experienced was probably on a similar psychological level, similar to mine and similar to a lot of other people's.

• 6:38Lewis Howes?

  Oh, man.

• 6:39Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, no, you have to. That that whole sound means that that the pain, like, people will relate. I I feel that.

• 6:45Lewis Howes?

  I'm open to it, yes.

• 6:48Speaker 01

  So so it sounded like you're just ambivalence about your relationship, right?

• 6:52Lewis Howes?

  Say it again?

• 6:53Speaker 01

  It sounded like you had a lot of ambivalence about your relationship.

• 6:55Lewis Howes?

  Uh, yeah, I mean, uncertainty. There's a lot of love I still experience and miss and appreciate. And um, I feel like I'm like sweating now, like being interrogated. But uh, something, you know, wasn't fully, and I think it was based on, we had different visions, I think. And I'm really committed to changing the world, for better terms, you know, cha-changing and transforming people's lives, creating powerful, inspiring things. And that comes with a specific lifestyle that I think needs a specific container in a relationship. I need to feel like I'm able to be free, to grow, to experience life, to connect with people, both men and women, and feel like I can be a hundred percent authentic and be myself.

• 7:40Lewis Howes?

  And um, I think uh,

• 7:42Speaker 01

  Let me let me hop in for a second. By the way, first of all, you've got to, you've got, you've got to read the book. And it just came out yesterday, so I know you're at that time, but I'm gonna like, I'm overriding it to you because the entire book is my dilemma with that. It's like, I get in these relationships and then I feel trapped and I feel like I'm losing experience. And there are reasons for this, and yours may not be the same, but we're gonna dive in a little bit deeper. Let me ask you, though, what, because there's a lot of, what made you feel trapped?

• 8:09Lewis Howes?

  You know, I just found out about this, and I was about to email my ex and tell her like, oh, my God, I think I figured out why I felt this way.

• 8:17Speaker 01

  No, dude, dude, leave her alone.

• 8:20Lewis Howes?

  I'm going to leave her alone. I'm going to leave her alone. But I was thinking about, I was like, oh my God, it came to me. Uh, through realization, I was actually having a conversation with, uh, uh, Catherine Woodward Thomas, who wrote a book called, uh, uh, Conscious Uncoupling. And the conversation with her, I was like, she was like, tell me about your, like, your dad and your parents. Like, how was their relationship? And I said, you know, my dad was miserable my entire childhood. He got in a relationship when he was eighteen, nineteen, got ha- My mom got pregnant. So he had to work three jobs and then had three more of us after that and never got to fulfill his dream. And he was always, always tension and there was never really a lot of love between them until

• 9:01Lewis Howes?

  uh, I was about sixteen, they got divorced and he was the happiest, freest man and he was able to go pursue his dreams. And he was like the most loving human being. So I realized, she was like, you probably associate how being in a marriage or committed a relationship with feeling trapped that you can't go pursue your dreams. And I never thought of it that way. Until she mentioned that and I was like, that's probably exactly what it is because once it starts to feels like it's holding me back in any way, I start to like, literally my body rejects it. And, uh, I get terrified.

• 9:34Speaker 01

  Right. And here's the thing. And, and, and here's the thing. So that whole kind of ma- matrix that you're, that you're locked in is complete illusion. And what, what I'm saying is this, and again, I get it. I swear to God, my entire book is I, this, I'll, I'll tell you what I did in my book. I'll just tell you what I did and we'll get back to your, your story. And I think I have another piece that I can add to the puzzle of your intimacy problems.

• 9:57Lewis Howes?

  Perfect. I, I, I had no clue we were going to do this. Everyone just listening. I had no clue this was happening, but okay, go ahead.

• 10:03Speaker 01

  It's not too late to just pull the whole podcast.

• 10:05Lewis Howes?

  I might just delete it.

• 10:08Speaker 01

  Uh, you know what? But maybe there'll be some healing for your ex and she knows it's really nothing to do with her. It's about you.

• 10:13Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, it is about me, of course.

• 10:14Speaker 01

  It is totally about you. Nothing to do with her. So, uh,

• 10:18Lewis Howes?

  She's amazing. That, that's the challenge. She's incredible and I love her to death. That's the challenge.

• 10:22Speaker 01

  Right. And, and you, and that, and that's why I like, and that's why you. That's why you saying, oh, here's what was wrong with me and just continually to engage her doesn't let her free. Either like, either let her free or decide or commit to her, but when you stay in this this gray zone, it just drags out her own pain.

• 10:38Lewis Howes?

  Of course.

• 10:39Speaker 01

  So, here's what I did.

• 10:43Speaker 01

  So I decided all the things you just said, it almost word for word. And then I said, you know what? Monogamy doesn't make sense. I talked to, and I'm like you, I talked to all the experts. I talked to Helen Fisher, the, and Chris Ryan, Helen Fisher, obviously what probably the biggest expert on the, on, on a relationships, especially from a scientific and psychological point of view. Chris Ryan wrote Sex at Dawn. You know, I talked to Stephanie Koontz, who wrote The History of Marriage. I talked to everybody. And these are the conclusions I drew then. And I'm gonna say they're they're not right, but these are what science says, right? So Helen Fisher says this, that we're born to, that we're naturally cheating is natural,

• 11:25Speaker 01

  that we pursue a dual relationship strategy, which is we get in relationships, you know, we cheat on the side, and we stick around about eight years, and then we do the next one. So it's serial monogamy with clandestine adultery. She says that's what's natural. Not that we should be doing it. She said that's what's natural. Obviously, we have. So, you know, Chris Ryan says we were born in groups, and these groups, everybody shared the kids had all the parents, the parents, we all kind of mingled and set up a group relationship. And it was healthy a kid had, instead of having mom and dad, they had 20, 30 loving caregivers. And, and it was a great way to be in a free, in the sort of aloe parenting, it's called. Stephanie Koontz says that marriage is a, marriage just changes with the societies and civilizations. So it was never about love until about the 18th

• 12:10Speaker 01

  century, when the idea of marrying for love, like, oh, that's a new idea. I was just marrying for like, extra field hands and to get the property, you know, whatever, whatever the idea is. So, so, so, so, and now she's, she said, says that marriage is coming to a place of really forming deep friendships, but also sort of a pick and choose where I can design my relationship with these qualities that I want. And do I want to be monogamous or not? Do I want children or not? Do I want to work? Do I not want to work? And we can make all these decisions now. So, but the one thing that I did in all the science was there was no science that backed up the idea of monogamy being natural. And by the way, I'm not going to talk against monogamy, I'm just gonna say where I was at this point in my life, because honestly, this is just, I don't think I was coming from the right

• 12:52Speaker 01

  frame of mind, because honestly, you shouldn't be researching science to decide what to do with your heart. Anyway. So, so I found one paper, one paper called "The Puzzle of Monogamous Marriage", and the paper was about, you know, why monogamy is good for civilization, it lowers the amounts of available, it lowers the amounts of available, of single men, and reduces crime. So I called them, I said, "So do you think it's evolutionary nar- natural?", and they said, "No way, otherwise you wouldn't need to have all these marriage customs and things, they would just happen naturally." So, I decided, "Forget about it, just, I'm gonna go off and I'm gonna live how I should be living." And so, yeah, I had a really horrible breakup, just like yours, I loved her so much, but

• 13:36Speaker 01

  I just said I couldn't do it, I felt like, we had this great conversation, and it's fun, it's a great interview, because I'm really saying things that I haven't even discussed at all, that are there in the book that I haven't discussed at all, so it's great to talk about. She said, um, oh, I said, she's like, you know, I just, she's like, "I feel like I found a beautiful bird, and I kept it trapped in a cage, and the bird the whole time is just staring out at the window wanting to be free, so, I get it, I'm gonna set you free." And it was such a beautiful thing to say.

• 14:03Lewis Howes?

  She said this to you?

• 14:04Speaker 01

  She said this to me, and it was such a beautiful thing, and then her last line was, "Let birds die in the wild."

• 14:11Lewis Howes?

  Oh my gosh.

• 14:12Speaker 01

  And not even, in a loving way, not even in a, in a, in a sort of snarky way, and, and, so that's kind of where the whole, a lot of the journey begins, and I went and tried a lot of open relationships, and polyamory, and trying, starting a group relationship and all kinds of stuff.

• 14:31Lewis Howes?

  Wow, and what did you discover?

• 14:32Speaker 01

  I discovered, that if you're psychologically unhealthy and have issues, no style of relationship will work for you.

• 14:41Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 14:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:43Lewis Howes?

  Okay.

• 14:45Speaker 01

  So, so, so, so I'm, maybe I'm gonna save you some time right now.

• 14:51Speaker 01

  That, that, that, like, it was like insanity, like, how, who was I to think that, okay, this relationship isn't working with monogamy. I'm gonna be polyamorous with, with three serious girlfriends and it's now gonna work. It was like three times the, three times the mess. Yeah.

• 15:08Lewis Howes?

  Oh, my gosh. Okay, so you've been researching this for years, haven't you?

• 15:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, I have, I have. It's learning, when you're, when you're really learning about these deep parts of yourself, I'm learning as well.

• 15:24Lewis Howes?

  And I think I, I started to connect with you probably two and a half, three years ago, when I moved to LA and I came over to your house in Malibu a few times. And you, you know, you would have your radio show and then we'd play some like late night games of like Cards Against Humanity or something. I forget exactly. Uh, we always had interesting conversations about this and you were just, I think you were, you were engaged or you just were newly married. I can't remember which, what it was. But I remember saying like you were the happiest you'd been in a relationship. And how did you get to that point of being like, okay, this is, this is the one, I'm happy, I'm gonna be monogamous, I'm gonna be married. Or is that not the case?

• 16:02Speaker 01

  No, great question. And how I got there was by realizing that what I thought was freedom really wasn't freedom. And that, that the freedom was in the commitment.

• 16:14Speaker 01

  And, and so, but if you think about it, okay, if I'm just gonna be single or unattached, or I'm just gonna be able to do whatever I want. You know, it's like a bird that's not able to land and it gets exhausting. Uh, and really like just going through the processes, which we can discuss, by which I was actually able to kind of get rid of my baggage and be intimate in a relationship and not feel trapped, uh, just opened up everything. Like I'm just, like, I know it sounds strange, but like the world's a brighter place to me because my wife's and family, now we have a son is, is in it. And, and it's really all because of this. So literally this book was never published, it wouldn't even matter because I've got like this great family because of the stuff I did. So.

• 16:57Speaker 01

  Let's dive into you for a little bit. So give me, we talked about your dad, you talked about your relationship. I think that's very true that obviously what was modeled for you is that you have a relationship and your parents have a relationship. And it models that, hey, someone can't do what they want. And then when they're separated, they're free and they're happy. That was modeled on one. And you talked a lot about your dad. And tell me about, let's say, like little Louis, age 12, looking at his mom. Just give me a couple of words to describe, you know, how you saw your mom at age 12.

• 17:28Lewis Howes?

  Unhappy, hardworking, you know, exhausted.

• 17:35Speaker 01

  Right. Okay. And here's, here's the thing. And by the way, I'm curious, how did you know your dad was unhappy in the relationship? He talked to you about it? How would you know your dad was unhappy?

• 17:44Lewis Howes?

  Uh, I think it was more of the energy that I felt when he would get home, he wasn't fully, you know, it wasn't like this positive energy around her. There was always this tension around them. It wasn't like they were loving constantly or affectionate. It was very rare when I saw that. So they would fight, they would yell, they would slam doors, they would, you know, do that, do that type of stuff. So.

• 18:08Speaker 01

  Isn't it fascinating, and you can tell if I'm wrong on this, but isn't it fascinating that the person who kind of extols greatness, grew up with these sort of defeated people and said, I'm going to overcome that and be about greatness?

• 18:18Lewis Howes?

  You know, the interesting thing is, my dad, you know, they loved, I mean, they loved us. They were very loving towards us, even though there was this tension. And the thing is, he always told me, like, never let anyone hold you back from your dreams. Always go after it. He always encouraged me to pursue anything I wanted. And he supported that. I think he did that because he knew at 19, he wasn't able to go after his dreams. Cause he had to start working for us and he had to sacrifice for the family and put his dreams on the shelf. So for me, I just was like, yeah, I'm going after my dreams. I want to do what I want. My dad is like supporting me to do it. So I'm gonna, you know, he's telling me that anything is possible and I believed it. And I created that for myself. And so I just, I think I just realized like,

• 19:03Lewis Howes?

  if anyone was gonna hold me back from my dreams, if it was like holding me back from being my fully expressed self to chase my dreams, that's what scares me in a relationship. I'm open, I believe I'm open to being fully committed.

• 19:15Speaker 01

  Right. So here's where it is.

• 19:18Lewis Howes?

  Yep.

• 19:19Speaker 01

  The whole idea that she's holding you back. Is a complete illusion that you're making up. Which, and I think I know where it may come from. Which is this, like with Ingrid, who's my wife now, I had the same thoughts and I had all these kind of resent. And I built, you build up resentment and then the resentment poisons the relationship. And, and now she does all the same things and I'm cool with it because you had, you have like a weak, you have weak boundaries. You know, which I would guess, I would guess, and again, I'm just really making a guess, you can tell me. That the other piece of the puzzle is this, mom's unhappy. And when you kind of grow up with a, with a mom, basically the idea is this, and this is true for me too. Which is if you grow up sort of feeling sorry for a parent, which you did for both of your parents.

• 20:04Speaker 01

  It's a thing called enmeshment, or it's also called engulfment. And what happens is when people get needy in relationships, you start to withdraw. Because it just feels like it's a, it's oppressive and especially, uh, what'll happen is you'll often get in a relationship with someone and feel a need to maybe take care of them or to, or to help them.

• 20:28Speaker 01

  And there's sort of that power relationship there. And then as soon as they become pendent, then you start to withdraw and be like, God, they're too needy.

• 20:35Speaker 01

  Yeah. My question for you is, I think the challenge is not just, you, I mean, you hit it on both sides. You're really a great case for, for a great, you're really a great case for someone really wants to be loving and wants to help others and wants to connect.

• 20:46Lewis Howes?

  Yeah. I'm all about intimacy and connection and love and creating the most magical, powerful relationship possible. And I believe I, and I believe I bring a lot to a relationship. I believe I'm like, I'm so vulnerable and open and willing to serve and support. And want to be there, but I also want to make sure that I'm taking care of myself and it's not holding me back in any way when I, when I'm doing that, or it's not.

• 21:12Speaker 01

  And listen, listen to, listen to your words, listen to your words, serve and support. Like that's the enmeshed thinking. You know what I mean? So there's no, you don't have to serve. You know, you don't have to serve the person, you know. Uh, and so that's the, and that's the thing that maybe builds to the resentment. So, so let me ask you this. Uh, this is, I don't know if you're ever gonna, ever gonna put this on, but it's kind of, it's interesting, right?

• 21:36Lewis Howes?

  I'm terrified to put this out already.

• 21:38Speaker 01

  Here, here's the thought. I'll tell you, I'm gonna take a step back and just tell people a little bit of the context of where it's coming from, and then we'll dive back in if that helps. Which is this, your, your templates are created in your childhood, you know, and obviously, uh, you're born and your brain is just, you just got this brain. It's got some, a little bit of architecture in it, but the real architecture of your brain is formed by your early experiences. And in a three-year-old, I think a child, I think this research is wrong, but it's a popular research. I don't think it's correct. I think it's different, but uh, about seven hundred neural connections a second your brain is forming in childhood. And a three-year-old has twice as many neural connections as you and I. So it's all, all these things are being wired in there. And then from three to seventeen, there's a process called pruning. And the things that aren't used are removed.

• 22:24Speaker 01

  And that becomes the box of thinking that you live in. What did you need to do to survive your family? And what didn't you need to survive growing up in your family? And no matter who you are listening, all human beings are imperfect, therefore all parents are imperfect. Therefore, if you can remove any sort of blame and look at yourself, any sort of blame for your parents, because there's no blame. They did the best they could. And really look at that, you can start to understand yourself. It's a, most of my books take like a, a year or two. This one took five years because that's how hard it was to, to see myself. Uh, so, so my thought is you're gonna replicate this relationship with everybody. And you, and, and, and the whole idea that she's gonna keep you, you have the choice. You, I mean, she, she wasn't keeping you tied up physically, right?

• 23:05Lewis Howes?

  Uh, no.

• 23:06Speaker 01

  Right. You, you have the choice to do anything you want at any time, correct?

• 23:10Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 23:10Speaker 01

  So how was she keeping you from that? Or were you making up something like, oh, I can't do this because it'll hurt her because she won't like?

• 23:16Lewis Howes?

  I mean, I don't want to get into it too much.

• 23:18Speaker 01

  You don't have to, you don't have to.

• 23:19Lewis Howes?

  I mean, I think here's the thing.

• 23:20Speaker 01

  By the way, I'm only talking from being on the other side of it. You know, like, again, before I started the journey in that in this book, I was exactly all the stuff you're saying. So everything I'm saying, I've only learned in the last year. It's not like I'm an expert. I just went through this myself to get to a place where I'm happy.

• 23:33Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 23:34Speaker 01

  So, so, okay, so let me just unpack a few things.

• 23:36Lewis Howes?

  You've been through my suffering already is what you're saying.

• 23:38Speaker 01

  Right. Uh, yeah, yes. My, my, your, my, uh, illusory self inflicted suffering. So here are a few things. The idea that you have to make her happy, right? Couldn't cheer up mom, can I make her happy? The whole idea, first of all, you can't make anybody happy.

• 23:56Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 23:56Speaker 01

  There's, your job is not to make people happy. You can't, you don't make anyone mad, sad, happy, anything. That's a choice they make. Right? So the responsibility for you making her happy leads to the resentment. And look at your, again, look at your mom, right?

• 24:09Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 24:10Speaker 01

  Next thing is, uh, okay, she, and also her neediness, like she needs me to be there, right? And there's that neediness and that we talked about earlier, when you get that neediness makes you kind of withdraw and that neediness is kind of a turn off. You want to help, uh, but when it gets too needy, it starts to like feel stifling and, and uncomfortable. But here's the thing, you, it still was a request. You still have the opportunity to say no, but there's a word called, uh, and again, I learned this because I do it. It's so, well, this, this is like, honestly, this is going to be the only interview that's really about the book that I've done. You know, I, I've done the dog and pony show today where I'm like doing, uh, like a satellite TV interview and like trying to give tips. And I, at the end of the interview, I just hate myself because like, I just don't want to, I don't want, I like talking about real things. I don't like sort of having five bullet points and trying to say that on a TV show.

• 24:54Speaker 01

  I like, this is a real conversation.

• 24:56Lewis Howes?

  I'm like fidgeting over here.

• 24:58Speaker 01

  I, that's great. That's why the book's called an uncomfortable book about relationships. It's uncomfortable. Um, so, so, yeah.

• 25:05Lewis Howes?

  That was the second thing. What was the third thing? Sorry, I cut you off.

• 25:08Speaker 01

  Oh, I don't know. I think I'm on the fourth or fifth thing. So, but, but the, but the main thing, and I, and here's what's fascinating. I think it's so hard to see yourself, but I bet a lot of your, your listeners are actually hearing some, some of these ideas, but.

• 25:20Lewis Howes?

  I'm sure.

• 25:22Speaker 01

  But yeah, so it was sort of her neediness. And let's say you also choose partners who are kind of the opposite. Like you, you're because of where you are psychologically, you're going to choose somebody who is more needy. And that's the dynamic, that's an dynamic, dynamic you're going to get, you get into. So she has her side of it, but her side of it doesn't matter. You could just change yourself and that's good enough.

• 25:38Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, and I wouldn't say she's so needy. I think there was just certain things that she wanted, that she really, really wanted. But it wasn't like she was so needy all the time.

• 25:45Speaker 01

  Right. See, there you are taking care of her feelings. It's so sweet. Right? You look at all, it's fascinating, right? Because even then you're like, oh God, I'm not thinking about myself here. I don't want her to be upset or feel like we're saying that.

• 25:57Lewis Howes?

  I mean, it's, I don't, there's nothing against, you know, I'm a hundred percent in love for her, is what I'm saying. It's not like she was wrong or bad. It's just, uh.

• 26:05Speaker 01

  No, we're not calling her needy, but you were saying that she needed you to be there. So that's a need.

• 26:08Lewis Howes?

  Yes, yes, yes, yes.

• 26:10Speaker 01

  So there's a thing called, and I experienced it called pathological accommodation. And it's the idea that against your own interest, you go along with somebody, what somebody wants because they want it. So you put them before you that way.

• 26:22Lewis Howes?

  Yep.

• 26:23Speaker 01

  And that builds up resentment. Yeah, that builds up resentment and becomes this poison in the relationship.

• 26:27Lewis Howes?

  That's what happened.

• 26:29Speaker 01

  So what all your listeners are probably thinking, and they may not be, but what I am, is, and I cannot, dude, just maybe just get on the Kindle right now or something when we're done talking.

• 26:39Lewis Howes?

  I will, I will.

• 26:40Speaker 01

  But I'll send it to you. I'll send it. You gotta get, it's like a white Bible, kind of like the game was a black Bible. So it's a beautiful object. I'll send it to you.

• 26:46Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, well, I ordered it too, so I'm excited.

• 26:48Speaker 01

  Oh, good. Oh, yeah. Thank you. Great. Perfect. So what would have happened if you just said no?

• 26:54Lewis Howes?

  Uh, um, she would have reacted in a way she wanted to react, whatever that would have been. She could have been hurt. She could have been frustrated. She may have been upset or sad. Or maybe she would have said, well, this is, this is what I need and I can't be in a relationship unless there's something you can give me. Or she would have handled it anyway. She wouldn't have handled it. But for me, there was a fear of her not being happy and reacting in a way that, you know, that, that where it wouldn't work out, or she wouldn't want to be with me, or, um, I don't know, any of those type of fears.

• 27:34Speaker 01

  Wow, like I really felt like I just felt like so emotional hearing you say that because that's really where it all is, that that by trying to protect her from having your fear of her response, you're trying to protect her from those things ended up being worse for the relationship than just letting her have a response.

• 27:50Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 27:51Speaker 01

  And the saddest thing is, you don't even know what it was. You don't even know what it would have been.

• 27:56Lewis Howes?

  I don't.

• 27:57Speaker 01

  And you never gave her the chance to do what was right for herself.

• 28:00Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 28:01Speaker 01

  So maybe instead of emailing her and saying that's what it's all about, you can apologize for assuming you knew how she'd react to that, not letting her have the reaction.

• 28:07Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 28:08Speaker 01

  And don't do that, but what I'm saying is it's another way to see it.

• 28:11Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, of course. Okay.

• 28:14Speaker 01

  Right, but what would have happened in your relationship if you maybe just said, I know, by the way, it's just one example, I'm sure there are many other examples of this, but if you did it just across the board, if you just said, hey, I'll come with you on the Sundays when I can come with you, and I won't come on the Sundays when there are other things that I want to do, how much advance notice would you like on that? Yeah, and you pathologically accommodated, yeah, you pathologically accommodated and did it and built up resentment and that kind of hurt the relationship versus, by the way, not saying that, what would be interesting is if you really just did what was true to yourself throughout, in a compassionate way, either here's what would have happened if you did exactly, listen, let's say this, let's say you took care of yourself and you

• 28:56Speaker 01

  took care of your needs. She could have, A, had an upset reaction, but then later come around and said, okay, maybe, you know, that expectation is not real. She might have said, cool, she might have gotten emotionally upset, and she might have broken up with you, and that's okay, because it means the relationship wasn't meant to be.

• 29:09Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 29:10Speaker 01

  And you would have saved a lot of pain and time.

• 29:12Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, I feel like each relationship that I get in, I learn so many new lessons about myself and about, you know, all these things, but it's just interesting to be able to look at, dive deeper and deeper on the why and how. And I love that what you just said is, you know, I think it's important to focus on being who we are, being 100% authentic to who we are, not worrying about hurting someone else, as long as we're coming from compassion, but being true to ourselves and what we want and need. And I think it'll work itself out the way it needs to when we come from that place.

• 29:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, exactly. I'll give you a simple example of maybe even on the on the reverse side of what you experienced, which is when my last book was out and I was, I think my relationship was was pretty new. My girlfriend, she like didn't like didn't want to come to the signings or something or didn't want to come to one of the signings. I'm like, you're not supporting me. Like, I've worked so hard on this book. You're not coming. You're not supporting me. I made up a whole story about how she wasn't supporting me. And who cares? She doesn't want to come to a signing. She doesn't want to come to a signing. Why do I need her to be there? And now I'm on now I have a new book out and we have babies. So she's staying home and she's not, you know, and I'm like, that's good. If she wants to come, great. The invitation's open. If she wants to, you know, if we can choose to get a babysitter for those days, we can. If not, whatever, it's fun. But I imposed a whole story on it versus, oh, someone doesn't want to come to an event that's occurring,

• 30:36Speaker 01

  turned into she doesn't support me. She doesn't care. This relationship sucks. Like, like, we should we just go from like zero to sixty so quickly.

• 30:45Lewis Howes?

  Now, what did you, when did you realize that, like, okay, you were going to commit a hundred percent to your wife?

• 30:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. Here's what happened. And this is why it's so tough. So I basically had all the insights. Like, I started to realize, okay, here's what's going on. Here's what's happening. I I also, I mean, I come out and say it. So this is how this is my, this is, you've been so intimate and vulnerable. I shall do the same. And again, it's, I mean, it's in the book anyway. So I cheated on on Ingrid, who is my wife now. And I felt horrible. I felt I thought I was a good guy. I really loved her. I wanted to be with her. And I cheated on her. And I just couldn't understand why. Why would I do that to someone? Why would I hurt somebody like that who loves me? Why would I like break her heart? Why do I ruin my future? And and why would I act, you know, outside my ethic system and outside my morals?

• 31:35Speaker 01

  And and just for sex that wasn't even that good anyway. And so I was talking with a with a friend. And he was saying, you know what? If sex, it was more important than all that, than all that, maybe you're a sex addict. And we had a lot of conversations about it. I said, you know what? I'm just going to check into sex addiction rehab. I don't know if I am or not, but certainly like the need for sex was stronger than the need for integrity and honesty and everything else. And so I actually checked in to rehab and uh, which is very ironic as the guy who wrote the game, I understand. And I, and there I sort of started to learn about, okay, what are the forces, unknown, unconscious, hidden forces operating on me that made me make this decision largely having

• 32:18Speaker 01

  a, you know, depressed, controlling mother and parents in a bad relationship. If that sounds familiar at all, you know, a dad who, you know, a very meek dad who kind of gave up everything for, it's so similar, it's insane. And uh, and started to learn about that. But here's the crazy part. So I learned all about the, the fears and intimacy I had, the fears of being controlled, the fears of being smothered, the idea that I kind of have to take care of someone that I resent them for a choice I made, right? And uh, and here, but here's the crazy thing. And then when I told you that story earlier about her and I broke up because I thought menagee wasn't natural, that happened after I learned everything about myself. Like I learned it all and then I still did it. And the thing is, the, the stuff is so strong that the knowledge is not enough.

• 33:03Speaker 01

  It's like when somebody said, says like, oh, I'm going to stop dating jerks or I'm going to stop dating people like this. And then you're like, wait, you, you're in another relationship with the same person again, you know, it's a new version of the same person.

• 33:14Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 33:15Speaker 01

  And so I had, I went through some super deep, that I highly recommend to everybody, uh, kind of uh, healing trauma, emotional work that really purged, that really sort of uh, let's just say weaken those connections we were talking about in the, in the box, those, those stories that, that we build up. And so I went through some really, really heavy, for, yeah. Well, first thing was humility. I had to accept that like, as smart as I am, I know nothing because I'm just messing everything up.

• 33:39Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 33:40Speaker 01

  And, and just say, I know nothing, I let go. All my logic is not going to help me, right?

• 33:45Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 33:46Speaker 01

  You know, the second thing is just not blaming on anyone else. Like, you know, well, she's doing this and she's doing that. It's, I had to just accept all the responsibility. And then the third thing was to just treat, there's this thing I took out of the book and I'll say it here. That I thought, like, let's, whether we think of them as trauma, like a psychologist may say, or just variables that make you you. I think of all that stuff as like a, although, all that, all that bad messaging you got growing up, you know, as a sort of like a cancerous ball attached to the heart by an elastic band, right? If you get rid of that, you can actually see reality and get out of your story and be in a pretty accepting, happy place.

• 34:24Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 34:24Speaker 01

  And so what I did was I just kept stretching with every therapy possible. I kept stretching that elastic band till eventually, you know, it just sort of, I won't say snapped, it got so weak that it has no pull over me.

• 34:35Lewis Howes?

  Wow, okay.

• 34:37Speaker 01

  And I'll give you some, I'll give you the example of what I'm talking about because it's hard. Everyone thinks that therapy is talk therapy. I don't believe talk therapy is very, very useful. It's only an hour, it's, there's no real, for most people, it's only an hour, there's no real treatment program. You're just coming in and talking about what, you know, I find talk therapy not useful because most of your beliefs and your trauma and your, and the things that happened to you growing up.

• 34:58Lewis Howes?

  I was just gonna say it's more physical than it is just in your head.

• 35:00Speaker 01

  Exactly, exactly. It's physical, it's emotional. When you're, when you're a child, when you're a child, you don't have language, things are not happening logically. And there are a lot of therapies that work on the emotional parts of it that work on, if you, if you're not, if the therapy doesn't involve you having feelings, it's probably not working on the deep level where you grip onto things. So there's something called somatic experiencing, which is, which is about releasing, it's almost like if you think of a, you know, someone dies with, in a house with unfinished business and they haunt the house, their business is finished.

• 35:32Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 35:33Speaker 01

  That's like, that's like maybe the stuff in your, in your body. That's a lot of, you know, whatever the stored up pain and sadness and anxiety. And again, seeing parents fight is, is not a good feeling to have and, and that's all locked in there. And so they do things to kind of unlock that and, and release it after all this time. So that was good. There's a lot of programs that, where you'd sort of really unpack this stuff and do a lot of, let's say, just heavy emotional work through this stuff. And it's, it's life changing. Like, there's a moment when you can step outside of your own head, outside of your box and see the world as it is, not as you think it is. Like, oh, it's a beautiful place, I just need to get back there.

• 36:10Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 36:11Speaker 01

  And then, but here's the, I'll tell you the last little piece of it, which is this. So when we got back in the relationship and I really showed improved in every way that I've changed. And again, the burden is on me to to to earn back trust, not for it to be given, you know, when I really earned that trust back. And she saw that I was really a different person in the relationship and in my life. It got her interested in this stuff because let's face it, she chose me, so she has to be something equally wrong with her.

• 36:39Speaker 01

  Just as I'd say the same about about about your ex. Right. So so generally, that's a pattern. I'm in Ingrid's case, it wasn't emotion out there, just a dad who literally was not there. Period. Just since she was a certain age. And so there's a lot of abandonment fears for that. So often, and again, it's no surprise, like the cover of the book is puzzle pieces. Because I think we're interlocking puzzle pieces sometimes.

• 37:02Speaker 01

  And so her dad like cheated on her mom, right? So of course she ends up with this cheater. Hey, I can reform the cheater, then I can heal my childhood wounds. So she had her do her own work on her abandonment and do everything else. So she got to the same place. And I think it's a great relationship. Listen, every relationship is going to have issues and problems. You keep shopping for relationships with no problems, you're going to be shopping until you die. So if you go decide if you can be with both recognize your own problems, not your not each other's, just your own. It's up to that other your partner recognize their own. But if you get lucky enough that you can communicate about yourself and your issues and they can communicate about theirs and both work on them, then you can get to have. You know, I guess if that when we're conscious uncoupling, you get to have a very conscious coupling.

• 37:46Lewis Howes?

  I like that. Now, how long were you with her until you guys broke up?

• 37:51Speaker 01

  We were probably together like a year till we broke up and then we were apart a year. And now since then, I think we were together, we've been together three years and now married, yeah, married with a baby now. And I look at him. And the coolest thing about all this stuff is all the stuff I learned about what's healthy parenting and not healthy parenting. It's made me so much more conscious and better of a father than I would have been otherwise.

• 38:14Lewis Howes?

  Wow. So how did you, what did you do in that year apart? Were you guys still hanging out at all? Were you fully focused on yourself? Were you off dating other girls? What was, what did you learn about that year?

• 38:26Speaker 01

  That was when I, when I, when I had the, tried the open relationship and the polyamory and like the sex commune. I was like, I'm gonna be so free. I, I had this vision. I had this, I had this vision. And I swear this really, I, I'm not just saying it just because I think maybe you led the way with this. So I had this great idea, I had this great idea that I'm gonna, I'm gonna get all my friends together and feel the same way. We have different women I've dated and they've dated and we're gonna live together in like a sort of like a

• 38:54Lewis Howes?

  Oh my gosh.

• 38:55Speaker 01

  We're gonna create a new kind of a lifestyle where we live together with no relationship attachments, total freedom in the morning and we, and then we built this kind of, designed this lifestyle. We had yoga, we did yoga in the morning. We had someone coming in to teach nonviolent communication, which is a great way to talk with each other. We always, you know, did a lot of sort of, we started growing our own stuff, like just really like living, traveling and just really enjoying life and being in this kind of free situation. And, and I really had this paradise in my head of this is the way to do it. We're gonna be like Chris Ryan's book Sex at Dawn and do this thing. However, you knew this was coming, right? But like, less than a week into it,

• 39:39Speaker 01

  someone's jealous partner tried to kill me with an axe.

• 39:42Lewis Howes?

  Oh my gosh, what?

• 39:43Speaker 01

  So yeah, my free love commune almost turned into the Manson family.

• 39:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 39:48Lewis Howes?

  With an axe?

• 39:50Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. We had an axe. We were chopping these coconuts and it was, it was, he got in a jealous rage and it was pretty scary.

• 39:56Lewis Howes?

  Oh my gosh, man. That's crazy. So, so, so did it last, did it end there? The fantasy end there or what?

• 40:02Speaker 01

  But what happened was he and that person left and then it kind of started, it kind of started.

• 40:06Lewis Howes?

  They took him off the island.

• 40:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. Which is, which is funny. It's, it's not, now it's not a free love commune. It's a total dictatorship.

• 40:14Speaker 01

  So, uh, so, uh,

• 40:17Speaker 01

  it's ridiculous the things we do.

• 40:20Speaker 01

  So, so, so it happened from there. Oh, we, and then it was kind of working. We said, well, we could do this. But the thing is, it's a lot of work to just manage everything. We had kind of meetings every morning where we discussed through our feelings and what's going on. And, and so it was, it was a full time job just managing it. There's a, for, for like the, the super, for the super, for the super nerds. Here's a little formula that I can help you with. And if anyone can figure it out, uh, you know, before I tell you what it is, uh, I'd be impressed. It'd be really cool to know. So it's N times N minus one over two.

• 40:56Lewis Howes?

  I have no clue.

• 40:57Speaker 01

  And so what is N?

• 40:59Lewis Howes?

  I have no clue.

• 41:00Speaker 01

  So N is the number of people in the relationship. And the sum is how many relationships you're having.

• 41:07Lewis Howes?

  Oh, my gosh.

• 41:08Speaker 01

  So in other words, I thought four people, if I was with three women, that's three relationships. But it's really, let's see, three minus, uh, what, what shit? I would kind of get the math to, uh, that's four of us, four of three. Uh, I'm messing up the math. I don't know. And four times three over two, six relationships. So three people is really six relationships. So in the house, I think there were 10 people. So whatever.

• 41:31Lewis Howes?

  Oh, my gosh.

• 41:31Speaker 01

  Whatever that is, that's, that's how many relationships you're actually having. And so it's, it's such a, a skill to keep that many going.

• 41:39Lewis Howes?

  That's a lot of energy, a lot of work.

• 41:41Speaker 01

  That's exactly what it was.

• 41:43Lewis Howes?

  So you tried all these things and then a year goes by and you realize what? That none of this works and monogamy is the way to go?

• 41:51Speaker 01

  No.

• 41:52Lewis Howes?

  Okay, what happened next?

• 41:56Speaker 01

  What happened was I realized the problem wasn't relationships. The problem was me. So that was the first thing was realizing like, okay, the problem's not her, you know, trying to control me and keep me from being free. The problem isn't monogamy. The problem is like solely me. And like, and the way I think and, and, and everything else. So I, I, uh, then that's when I did all the work that I was telling you about.

• 42:19Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 42:20Speaker 01

  And sort of just, and I was willing, the other thing is when I really was sort of trying to reconnect, trying to reconnect with, with anger, trying to make the relationship work. So I was also open to whatever happens. I'm letting go of the outcome. If, if it's right, it'll happen. If not, at least I'm a healthier person. So I did the change, the work for me, not for her. I think that's an important distinction.

• 42:39Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 42:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, cause even a relationship, go ahead, go ahead.

• 42:41Lewis Howes?

  Were you in contact with her at all that year? Or was it here and there? Were you guys still seeing each other? Was it completely disconnected?

• 42:48Speaker 01

  Almost completely disconnected and any connection was a bad idea.

• 42:53Speaker 01

  So if you, so if one thing I can say is, yeah, I did like a whole like blog post about this, but I really feel this is true. I don't know. I don't haven't read about the uncoupling, but I think you, you've got to set somebody free. And I think the best way to sort of uncouple, and I don't know what the philosophy on it is, is to be, to be firm about it. To make the decision and really be firm about it, to say, not to waffle back and forth and let it drag on for years. And then together say, we're going to communicate for a week or for two weeks, whatever you want, whatever you need. I'm there for you to help you through that, this stuff. And then after that, though, no matter what happens, we're not going to communicate until both of us are actually really over it and can actually be friends and have no emotional attachment or pain. In other words, I can see with a new partner, not feel, you know, sadness or jealousy or regret.

• 43:37Speaker 01

  So I think you have to, every time you communicate with someone, once you're broken up, you reset the clock on your recovery and their recovery.

• 43:44Lewis Howes?

  Wow. I remember you saying this actually in your little, what was this like little star dungeon room you had with beanbags? And you're in Malibu. I think you remember saying that because you guys were talking about how you got back together or something. And I remember saying you got a fully, that one week period where you can talk about anything, you can be there for you, but then you gotta cut it off. I thought that was brilliant.

• 44:07Speaker 01

  You're much better man than me. Yeah, you need, you need like some, a friend or someone else to talk to, uh, because of course you have a pain and only that, you feel like the person who caused it or is, or even if you caused it this time, the person, you feel that they can cure it or make you feel better a little bit and it becomes addictive.

• 44:25Speaker 01

  And so.

• 44:25Lewis Howes?

  So was she off, was she off with other, another relationships or were you even aware of what she was doing or what?

• 44:31Speaker 01

  Uh, yeah, I wasn't aware. I just tried, you know, I didn't, I didn't, I stayed strong and I checked the Facebook. I think she had a friend of me anyway, but I checked, I didn't check Facebook or anything like that and didn't, you know, vicar, do vicarious contact by asking friends what she's doing. I did a little bit of that actually, now that I think about it, but pretty much it was pretty good. Yeah, but she definitely, she had some awesome relationships with really cool guys. Like, no, I saw, I could check this out. I saw, I remember like a, I think there's a point where I got weak and I really wanted to get back together with her kind of halfway through this. Uh, and, uh, and a friend was friends with us, showed me a Facebook photo or some, something. And she was with this guy who was like the most good looking guy I've ever seen in my life. Like he looked, he was like an underwear model. If I can remember, I wish I could remember his name. I don't have you guys Google like

• 45:13Speaker 01

  he looked, he faced like James Dean and like a body with just like rippling with muscles everywhere. And I'm like, okay, I guess it's done.

• 45:23Speaker 01

  And I, I definitely, I don't have a lot of wrinkles and not where I want them.

• 45:27Lewis Howes?

  Right, right.

• 45:28Speaker 01

  Uh, so, so, uh.

• 45:30Lewis Howes?

  So did you kind of let go fully then? Or was that give you more, you know, were you kind of like sad more than, or what was the feeling?

• 45:38Speaker 01

  No, I thought, you know what? I hope this guy isn't ambivalent like me. Like I hope this guy doesn't have questions about monogamy like me. And, and I just said, yeah, I just thought, you know what? I'm, I'm probably not ready anyway.

• 45:50Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 45:51Speaker 01

  Yeah. And so, but to answer your question, so, so it's funny, there's been a lot of articles about this book. And they're all like, you know, player chooses monogamy and it's a convenient cultural narrative.

• 46:01Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 46:02Speaker 01

  But, but my belief really is that these, they're just these false distinctions of choosing monogamy or non-monogamy or this or that. They're just false distinctions. And we just made the commitment to just be in a relationship and do whatever is right for the three entities in the relationship, which are me, her, the relationship. So whatever serves all three throughout it. It's weird. Like say you made a rule. If you decided before you started your career, I'm always going to do this in my career. Like late, now you just feel like you change, you grow, things happen. So, so all we do is just make the commitment every moment to be true to those three things and do what's right for them.

• 46:35Lewis Howes?

  And so what, you know, you let her go, you were, you moved on, but then why a year later? Did you decide to reach back out or how did it, how did they get back together? What, what happened? And how did she, and how did she trust you again?

• 46:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, I just realized that I really, really blew it. Like I realized that I really, really blew it. Um, and, uh, so we just sort of met. I got like, I kind of got like, her, her brother was having a wedding and I, I basically kind of got invited to that in some way. And I just showed up and I just knew this is my chance to see her again. This is my last chance. And I brought all these sort of like little gifts to show her that I changed. I, I, for example, changed, I cut off, I cut off everything from my past as far as the person who I was and maybe the unhealthy people I was hanging out with. So just I knew phone numbers, new email addresses. You know, I gave her sort of like just whatever I could do to prove that she, she could

• 47:28Speaker 01

  trust me. And, and kind of we had this discussion and, and it wasn't like, oh, we got back together. It was great. But having we got back together and it was actually pretty uncomfortable and, you know, she had a lot of trust issues, obviously, and a lot of fears. And, and that's when she started doing some of the work I had done. And, and, and, and, and it's great. And we got to this place. And, and the coolest thing about this place is one of the big, my biggest fears got proved wrong, which is that I thought that over time, passion and sex like fade in a relationship. It just gets old. And what happened actually is it gets old. If you turn that person into your parents, you turn her into mom, you know, you can't make happy. Right? And then you're, you don't want to have sex with your mom.

• 48:13Speaker 01

  Or whatever, maybe she turns into dad who's always whatever her dad was doing emotionally and his emotional withdrawing. And she just want to have sex with dad. And I found that as, as we let go of our parental stories about each other and get closer, we be closer emotionally without fear, like the sex are like, we keep having the best sex of our lives each time we kind of have, yeah.

• 48:31Lewis Howes?

  Wow. I mean, this is, I'm, I'm first off, I'm glad to hear this is all happening. So congratulations on everything.

• 48:37Speaker 01

  It's great, man. I, I swear to God, like, I swear to, like, it's if, if I just haven't, hadn't done this, I really just would have been, I would, I probably would, I may have been married, but I would have been miserable, resentful, like cheating, you know, scarring my kids and, or I just would have been single forever and blaming it on everybody else. Like I'm just, it's, it's just amazing. It's amazing.

• 48:56Lewis Howes?

  How did you know that, you know, she was the one or the one that you wanted to marry or that this was it? I mean, how did you know it was her?

• 49:04Speaker 01

  Right. I guess it's funny. I mean, all those questions are really like logical questions, right? Like, and they're also like, well, how do I know? What if there's another one? Like, the first thing I did is I got rid of the words, what if? I removed them from my vocabulary. No more saying, what if? You know, what if is like the most, is a really unhealthy way to, to, to go about what if there's someone else? How do I know? What if that's wrong? I, I changed it to, I will accept it if, I will accept it if it doesn't last forever. I will accept it if, you know, I'm wrong about this. And suddenly life becomes easier.

• 49:35Lewis Howes?

  So you're not putting this like, I'm gonna be married for the rest of my life, like it has to happen. If it's for some reason for years it's not working and you guys can't shift, you're open to whatever is an option.

• 49:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, whatever's right for her, me and the relationship. And that's the other psychological fallacy is like you start to build it up in your head. Oh, I can't be with my ex. I need to break up for me, you know, and you just, you just, that's fiction that it just, if you just do what's right for you and all of you guys in each moment. And continue on like that for each moment, it's even more likely to last.

• 50:06Lewis Howes?

  I love this. Uh, I feel like we should talk for another three hours, but I wanna, I wanna leave it at that and ask you a couple of final questions. Um, because I'm excited to dive into this book. I think hopefully if I get the courage to post this, uh, you know, people will get a lot of value out of this. Um, at least, at least if anyone did, I feel like I'm getting value out of it. So I appreciate you letting me go through a little therapy right now.

• 50:31Speaker 01

  Yeah. And thanks for being so, so thanks for being so open about everything. That's like a risky, brave thing.

• 50:35Lewis Howes?

  It's very risky and, uh, I'm terrified, but, um, I think, uh, that's the reason why a lot of people like this podcast is because, you know, I go there and my guests go there. And so, uh, I think I'd be doing, I want to be doing what I, what I speak into that people should be doing in their lives, um, if I don't post this. So, uh, just curious to see how people are gonna react. Um, so I want to ask a couple of final questions. I want to make sure everyone gets this book. It's called The Truth, An Uncomfortable Book About Relationships. Um, we'll have it linked up here at the show notes, but you can get it anywhere, Barnes and Noble and Amazon and things like that. Final, final two questions. This is what I ask all my guests at the end.

• 51:19Lewis Howes?

  If, um, you know, you've written a number of New York Times bestselling books, you've been a writer for a long time. But if for some reason all your writing had been, had vanished and you had one piece of paper to write down three truths about life that you've learned, and this was the only thing you got to leave behind for people to read of yours is these three simple truths. What would you say those three truths are?

• 51:45Speaker 01

  Probably, I know nothing, you know, nothing, we know nothing.

• 51:51Lewis Howes?

  There you go. That's all three. Okay. Perfect. The final question, before I ask the final question, I want to acknowledge you Neil for for coming on and sharing and allowing me to go there, putting me in the container of feeling safe enough to share and trusting you for kind of guiding me through this, but also for doing, going through incredible suffering and pain that you have. I know the pain you've been through internally and emotionally through all of this. I feel it, I get it, because I feel like I've I've lived part of that myself. Maybe not at the level that you have, but I can only imagine

• 52:31Lewis Howes?

  the type of pain you've gone through to get to this point. And I acknowledge you for sticking in it, sticking it through, doing the work on yourself and coming to this place because it sounds like it's one of the most beautiful places you've ever been in your life, happily married with your new son, and I couldn't be happier for you. So I acknowledge you for doing the work and sharing it with all of us.

• 52:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, thank you for saying that. That's very accurate and very perceptive and empathic.

• 52:59Lewis Howes?

  Yeah. And my final question is, what's your definition of greatness?

• 53:05Speaker 01

  I think that I wouldn't, I just think that, it's interesting, the question is, I really should have listened to your podcast before coming on, so I could be prepared for these three questions. I really would have given, but honestly, like, I guess for me personally, like, I don't, greatness to me, as I hear it, sounds like an external standard. So I guess greatness for me is just always, just always, A, knowing yourself, and then B, once knowing yourself, always being true to yourself. So greatness comes, you know, from within, and you're the only judge of that greatness.

• 53:40Lewis Howes?

  I like that. Neil Strauss, thanks so much for coming on and sharing, man. I really appreciate it.

• 53:44Speaker 01

  Great. Thanks for a great, great conversation.

• 53:50Lewis Howes?

  And there you have it guys, I hope you enjoyed this conversation again. Uh, not the most comfortable one for me, but I'm already believing that you guys are going to be getting a lot out of this. Um, and hopefully my pain and my discomfort and my confusion and, and all the things that I go through, uh, gives you guys some insights. And allows you to connect to anything that's maybe confusing or that you're not sure about in relationships with you as well. So, thank you guys for listening and for bearing with me through the discomfort and the dis-ease. And I really appreciate your support here. Make sure to share this out, lewishouse.com/242 with your friends.

• 54:31Lewis Howes?

  Anyone who you may think enjoy this or get something out of this, and make sure to pick up a copy of Neil's book to learn more. It's called "The Truth." Uh, make sure to check it out over on Amazon or bookstores near you. Again, my book is coming out October 27th. Make sure to preorder a copy. Buy a few copies for your friends and give them away, and it would mean the world to me. This is my dream. I've had this dream for eight years to come out with this type of book, and it's finally coming true. Please help me by spreading the message of greatness to the world by buying a copy and letting your friends know as well. I appreciate you guys so very much. I'm gonna be going on a tour as well. Make sure to check out lewishouse.com/events.

• 55:14Lewis Howes?

  Come see me in person, give me a hug, give me a high five, uh, let me know what you enjoy about the podcasts and which one you are inspired by the most. So, thank you guys again so much, lewishouse.com/242. You know what time it is. It's time to go out there and do something great.