The Love Expert: We've Built A Loveless Society & It's Making Us Depressed! (here's the fix!) Alain De Botton

If you enjoy hearing about the philosophy of life, I recommend you check out my conversation with Ryan Holiday, which you can find here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PafvhTSC4yE Philosophy isn’t just for universities and lecture halls, philosophy can help guide every part of your life, from relationships, work to mental health. Alain de Botton is a British author, intellectual and co-founder of the global organisation, ‘The School of Life’. He is best known for the books, ‘Essays in Love’, ‘How Proust Can Change Your Life’, and ‘The Consolations of Philosophy’. In this interview, Steven and Alain discuss everything from, the origins of mental health problems, what it means to live a good life, why perfection is dangerous, why we are chasing love rather than money and why love itself is a skill. You can purchase Alain’s most recent book, ‘A Therapeutic Journey: Lessons from the School of Life’, here: https://amzn.to/41zQJTF Follow me: https://beacons.ai/diaryofaceo Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  These are very valuable lessons that we need in our relationships. So, lesson one. Alain de Botton.

• 0:06Speaker 01

  Best selling author. The modern philosopher of love.

• 0:08Speaker 00

  His goal.

• 0:09Speaker 02

  To help you live a better, more meaningful life.

• 0:12Speaker 00

  The average human has 70,000 thoughts a day. The problem is that we don't know how to use them. For example, we tend to believe we'll find the one. But that belief has led to more rage, more disappointment, because we're not free to love just anyone. What's problematic is that we're drawn to love stories that are echoing our childhoods. And this is something that troubles so many people, because our past was not necessarily happy. We are all confused about love. The most romantic sentence that people will say is, "I met this person and we didn't even need to speak. We just felt on the same page." Well, this leads to a catastrophic outbreak of sulking. They say to use anything wrong. Of course, there is, but you're not going to tell them. And the reason is that you're a romantic

• 0:55Speaker 00

  and you believe that your partner should have alien capacities to look into your wounded soul to understand what the upset is. But of course, they can't, because they're just human. So what would you say are the core habits of two people who have a really successful relationship? What we need is... Let's talk about sex. Goodness me, does it cause problems? 26% of people in relationships are having sex less than 10 times per year. So the question is, what are we getting wrong? One of the leading answers that neither party knows is there is that ding ding, that's normally a sign of a problem.

• 1:40Speaker 00

  Alain,

• 1:43Speaker 00

  you write about so much. You produce content about so many different subject matters. But what is the overarching mission that you are on? I'm trying to look almost systematically at a variety of causes of unhappiness created by the world we live in. You know, obviously, the world we live in has solved many, many problems, but it's also generated in a host of areas particularly difficult challenges that have not really struck humanity before. And I like to think, both personally and on behalf of others, about what those problems are and how we might steer through them. The average human has 70,000 thoughts a day, right?

• 2:25Speaker 00

  Not huge elaborate ones, but just stray little fragmentary thoughts, 70,000 of them, pass through consciousness every day. And the problem is that we don't know how to process them or use them. It's part of the reason why we end up with such, you know, busy and troubling minds. We haven't stepped back in order to ask ourselves at the end of the day, some of those questions that can calm us down, like, you know, who am I angry with? What am I excited by? What's really happened today? You know, we let experiences rush past us. And then, of course, experiences that haven't been digested properly have a nasty habit of coming to sting us in the tail.

• 3:07Speaker 00

  And I think you can look at a lot of mental troubles as essentially the outgrowth of unprocessed emotion. You know, depression is often sadness that hasn't understood itself. Anxiety or irritability is worry that doesn't know its own cause. And so often what we need, particularly in the modern world, is occasions on which we can get to know our own minds. It's a strange thing. Surely we know our own minds. Surely we don't know. No, no. The way that we're built is obviously not prioritizing a full awareness of ourselves. We're outward-facing creatures.

• 3:50Speaker 00

  We're action-focused creatures, which is all to the good and has many advantages. But because of the way we live now, more sedentary lives, lives that call upon us not merely to be active, but also to be fulfilled. Those lives require periods of introspection that our routines often don't allow for. So I'm always trying both for myself and advising others, you know, take that time in the evening. Just sit down in a semi-darkened room and just ask yourself, what's coming up for me? What's really happened inside me? Because it can take a little while to realise what you're really upset by, what you're really excited by, et cetera.

• 4:33Speaker 00

  We're not obvious to ourselves. And as I say, so many of things that we call mental disorders or mental illnesses are really stored emotion that hasn't found a way out. Emotions that haven't been acknowledged have a nasty habit of stirring our conscience, demanding to be heard. They might want to tell our spines, they might want to tell our stomachs. You know, and again, a useful exercise, so as not to be struck by so many of these psychosomatic disorders, is to ask the body what it's trying to tell you, so that it doesn't need to tell you in the more dramatic forms that end up as illnesses.

• 5:15Speaker 00

  So again, if you, you know, if you lie down and you simply say to yourself, if my back could speak, what does it want to tell me? If my shoulders could have their say, what are they trying to say? If my stomach could have a voice, what might it be trying to utter?

• 5:30Steven Bartlett?

  Can you apply that same rationale to things like anxiety?

• 5:33Speaker 00

  Absolutely. You know, if you think of, take something like insomnia, right? You wake up at three in the morning. The way I like to think of it is insomnia is, if you like, a kind of revenge for all those thoughts that you were so careful not to have in the day. You very carefully schemed not to have those thoughts in the day. Because of our emotional conscience, they want to be heard. And if you're not hearing them at three P M., you're going to be hearing them at three A M. And so, you know, one of the best ways to sleep is to make sure you're having a little bit more of an in-depth conversation with yourself before you enter sleep, because that will allow you that kind of deeper rest.

• 6:14Speaker 00

  So, as I say, we have this emotional conscience that requires that the key things about us have a chance to be heard. And look, let's not forget, I mean, this is the whole theory of trauma, you know, what psychotherapists have very usefully over the last twenty, thirty years informed us about, is that events in our past, especially in our early childhood, that we've not had a chance to properly understand. And how much can a three, four, five, six-year-old understand? Events that we can't understand, it doesn't mean that they haven't registered. They've registered all the more deeply and they haven't had a chance to be processed. You know, I was thinking, a friend of mine recently lost a parent.

• 6:57Speaker 00

  He's in his 50s, well educated, got resources, got friends, spouse, et cetera. He was telling me he was laid low by depression, just couldn't get out of bed, completely stunned by his loss. And I was thinking, in a way, he's lucky because he's got all those resources of adulthood. Imagine a five-year-old child who suffers a bereavement. They've got no friends that they can have those sort of dialogues with. They've got no books that they can reread about this. They've got no capacity to process, they've got no understanding of time, et cetera. Emotions that can't be had lodge themselves in us and gum up our systems. And I think so much of the work that we need to do on ourselves is to process pain

• 7:41Speaker 00

  that has not been properly understood, not because anyone's evil, but because we've lacked the resources to do so.

• 7:49Steven Bartlett?

  You got me thinking about this concept of happiness as you're speaking and whether it's a natural thing for our species to be aiming at or whether it's a new, more modern thing that we've decided to focus upon. And are we causing ourself immense distress in this pursuit of this thing that maybe our ancestors didn't ever think about? This whole, you know, we think about self-actualization and they were probably thinking about survival and reproduction more.

• 8:14Speaker 00

  Look, these all belong to the sort of paradoxes of modern times. Modern times have obviously brought us enormous advantages, but they've also brought us particular complexities that I think we'd be wise to realise. And one of them is the disappearance of religion. I mean, we are still among the first generations in many parts of the world to be trying to live good lives without the support of religion. Think of our religion's structure. Time and human experience in time. As a religious person, you immediately feel the present moment is not as important as a hundred, two hundred, two thousand, million year history that has come before and that will continue after. The present moment is a speck in time and, and there's a whole narrative of which you're part of.

• 8:59Speaker 00

  That immediately diminishes you in scale. Now, nowadays, all of us want to be rather large, don't we? We want to be big, big people. We want to make a big impression. But arguably, this is a fast route to mental illness because the graceful acceptance of your miniscule position in the cosmos is the gateway to calm and harmony. And when people say, you know, I went into this hotel, you know, the person made me feel small. That's a bad way of being made to feel small, but there's a good way of being made to feel small. Pick up an ancient text, read words that were written by someone in a foreign tongue three thousand years ago. That'll make you feel small.

• 9:39Speaker 00

  Go into the desert, notice the, the age of the rocks inscribed in, you know, time inscribed in sand. That'll put you in your place. Spend time with an animal that has no concern for your status, your sense of importance, your foiled narrative of your own success. All these things that drive modern humans mad, these are not present in an older kind of religious sphere. And as I say, what religions do is they tell us you're part of a bigger story. They also tell us, many faiths tell us, that life and you in particular are imperfect. You know, think of Catholicism and its notion of original sin. Now, lots of, lots of bad stuff associated with original sin.

• 10:23Speaker 00

  I'm not, you know, a huge fan of many aspects, but let's look at the good side, right? What Catholicism tells us is that everybody's broken. Everybody is flawed. It's quite a helpful starting point, right? Because.

• 10:37Speaker 00

  If you think, well, all right, I'm a bit broken, but so is somebody else, so is somebody else, so we're all doing our best. That's the gateway to vulnerability, to friendship, if you like.

• 10:46Steven Bartlett?

  Lower expectations.

• 10:47Speaker 00

  Lower expectations, but also to to connection with others, you know. So often, people who've become successful find it really hard to make friends. Why? Because they associate success with invulnerability, and the more successful they get, the harder it is for them to admit to the real truth about being human, which is that we're all helpless children, some of the time, at least frightened helpless children. And it becomes harder to make, to keep up the contact with that, let alone admit that to somebody else. So, again, religions handily reduce our expectations and our sense of ourselves. We are merely flawed humans. There is a perfect world. It doesn't exist in Beverly Hills. It doesn't exist in, you know, the fancy parts of Singapore or Sydney. It exists

• 11:31Speaker 00

  up there in a, in another world. In other words, the human realm is inherently imperfect. Quite a good starting point. I mean, even if you went on a date, right? Imagine two characters you might go on a date with, right? First one tells you, yeah, I'm kind of perfect and I'm achieve, I'm aiming to achieve total perfection. Think, wow, good for them, but slightly scary. Next to somebody else who goes, I'm kind of flawed, but I'm sort of managing my flaws and I'm interested in how to get to know my flaws and work with them. Instantly, one thinks, hmm, life might be easier around such a person. There's, there's something about the pursuit of perfection which makes day-to-day life extremely hard. And religions, slightly by the by, tick that box. They

• 12:16Speaker 00

  were able to reduce us in our own eyes while raising us in the eyes of, you know, a divine being. And, and that has helped us to have, that helped us to have an easier relationship with, with ourselves. And, and the notion also was, you cannot perfect this life, you know. Life becomes perfect in another realm. We'll build Jerusalem somewhere else, not on this earth, in the next world. Again, it takes the pressure off us. We moderns, we modern people. We think the present moment is supremely important. Now is important. Everything that's going on right now is supremely important. Doesn't matter, remember 100 years ago, 1,000 years ago? Now is the only criteria of time. You are perfectible, right? So if there's something wrong with you, you're failing against an ideal of perfection. Again, very, very hard.

• 13:01Speaker 00

  And that you are made, I mean, the biggest, the biggest challenge of all, you're made to be happy, as you suggested, that the true goal of every human is happiness. Not fulfillment, not, you know, the realization of a grand scheme, not living for others, your own happiness. And again, it's a beautiful idea, but goodness me, does it cause problems? Goodness me, you know, think of Emile Durkheim. Beginning of the 20th century, French sociologist, writes this book, contrasting the differences between ancient societies and modern societies. And he identifies one troubling difference between ancient societies,

• 13:44Speaker 00

  pre-modern agricultural, village-based societies where religion plays a role, and modern, urban, technologically-driven, success-oriented, individualistic societies, and that's the suicide rate. He realizes in his book on suicide, published in 1900, that modern societies, for all their advantages, leads their members, a share of their members, often the most ambitious of their members, to take their own lives. Why? What's going on? And this becomes, well, it's the birth of modern sociology, really. It's, it becomes a major inquiry into what modern times does to the soul. And I'm deeply fascinated by that. I can't let that one go because what's this paradox?

• 14:30Speaker 00

  What's this paradox of suffering amidst plenty? Of regress amidst progress? This fascinates me.

• 14:38Steven Bartlett?

  I spoke to the CEO of Calm, Campaign Against Living Miserably, Simon Gunning, and he shared some stats with me about exactly what you're talking about, about suicide. He said someone dies by suicide in the UK every 90 minutes, 76% are male, there's 25 attempts for every death, the single biggest cause of death for men under 45 is suicide, single biggest cause of death for 15 to 49 year olds is suicide, that 19 to 35 year old category are twice as likely to report being in crisis than any other group, and 16 to 24s is the fastest growing group in history to exhibit suicidality. And more recently, there's a big conversation emerging now around young women and suicidality,

• 15:19Steven Bartlett?

  which is a fairly recent, unfortunately exploding trend, this trend of young women now experiencing suicidality.

• 15:28Speaker 00

  And look, people don't just commit suicide when things are bad. People commit suicide when things are bad and they think, it's a delicate point, they think it's their fault. They cannot disassociate the trouble they feel from an intense sense of responsibility, which then also entails shame. And what's going on there? You see, when I say that we live in an individualistic world, what that really means is we live in a world where people feel that they control their own narratives, that what happens to them is very tightly a reflection of who they are and what they've done. And this was not always the case.

• 16:10Speaker 00

  You see, for long periods of history, people were not necessarily tightly held to the observable outcomes of their lives. This happened with money, for example. In Old English, a poor person was known as an unfortunate, right? What is an unfortunate? Let's unpack that word, unfortunate. There's the word fortuna in there. What was fortuna? For the Romans, fortuna was the goddess of luck, the goddess of fortune. And the Romans were therefore all the time sacrificing things to the goddess of fortune as a way of saying, you know, please, you know, it's not me, it's, you know, this outside agency. Nowadays, this sounds completely weird. I mean, what do we call?

• 16:56Speaker 00

  In the most individualistic country in the world, United States, what are poor people called? It's not a nice term, they're called losers, right? You say, that's a loser. So we've gone from unfortunate to loser. That's a trajectory of 400 years. What's happened in that time is a story about who's responsible for people's fate. And nowadays, you know, if I said to you, Stephen, things have not been going so well for me. I've just been sacked, uh, you know, my, my book hasn't sold, you know, but it's not me. I've just had a bit of bad luck. You, very nice person, but a modern person, side of you be thinking, hmm, you must have done something wrong, right? You'd be thinking, you must have done something wrong, because that's how we think.

• 17:37Speaker 00

  We don't allow people the benefit of luck, right? Similarly, if you said to me, oh, uh, you know, my, my podcast be doing brilliantly. We've now got 8,000 million, million, billion subscribers, how many you got nowadays? And, and you said, and you said to me, oh, I just, just a bit of good luck, right? I think, oh, Stephen's really, you know, he's very modest, but you know, it's not true. He's done something. We believe that people do things and that that action leads to results or failures. And that's why people take their own lives, because in extremists, people think there is nothing other than me to explain what happens to me. Of course, the reality is much more complicated. I'm not saying that's the truth, but that is the perceived truth.

• 18:19Speaker 00

  You know, look, we live in a world that is meritocratic, right? That word, meritocracy, is on everybody's lips. If you take politicians, left and right, in the United States, all over the world, everybody wants to create a world that is meritocratic. Some people think we've already got there.

• 18:39Steven Bartlett?

  What does that word mean? I don't know.

• 18:40Speaker 00

  Meritocratic is, the concept of meritocracy is a, a world in which, um, people's outcomes are dependent on their merit, rather than on who their parents were, um, some corrupt class in society, the influence of whatever. So, you know, a left-wing politician and a right-wing politician say, we want to make a meritocratic world, where your kids will go to where they deserve, where if you work hard, you can get there. And, um, you know, where everyone has a chance to succeed. You know, you know, that kind of rhetoric. It's, it's the rhetoric of modern times. Now,

• 19:23Speaker 00

  It sounds great, and in many ways, it's an enormous advance. But again, let's just focus on the psychological toll of that. Because if you really believe in a world in which those who get to the top deserve to get to the top, by implication, you are also positing the existence of a world in which those who are at the bottom deserve to be at the bottom. In other words, a meritocratic worldview turns success and failure from chance to a necessary fate. And that's why it makes the winners quite hard, potentially, quite heartless. Because they're thinking, well, I got there on my own, you know, don't need to thank anybody.

• 20:07Speaker 00

  Might not need to pay many taxes. Why pay taxes? You know, it's fine. And similarly, those at the bottom are kind of crushed. So we've created this very complicated ideology where there's a hidden toll to living in.

• 20:27Steven Bartlett?

  And this has happened within a couple of generations, hasn't it? Because I even think about my mother, she's from, I know it's a different country and there's different traditions there. But even in my mother's generation, when she grew up in Africa, if they wanted good fortune, they would take their sheep, their animals, and they would take it to the local witch doctor and basically offer a sacrifice. They'd obviously pray, but they were, they were so in the opinion that their outcomes were determined by a religious god of sorts. And even her moving to the UK and starting businesses here, I think she's moved a little bit away from that thinking to the sort of, as you kind of almost posit it's,

• 21:05Steven Bartlett?

  it's almost like the curse of personal responsibility, or at least the pitfalls of personal responsibility, where she now definitely thinks that her outcomes are correlated to her hard work. And it's so interesting, I've never considered the fact that that could be bad for us on a psychological level.

• 21:18Speaker 00

  Sure, because, you know, we know that there are good sides of it, of course we do. And so, you know, I'm really pointing out something that is less often spoken about. Because we know the good sides, of course, a world in which people take responsibility can be good. But at what moment does it crush the spirit? And, you know, talking about your mother and, and. You know, moving away from an agricultural society, a rural society, to an urban, modern individualistic society. You know, in many parts of the world, in in the old world, in the pre-modern world, when people met each other for the first time, they would say, where are you from? Where are your ancestors? Who's your father? Who's your mother? That was people's identity. Nowadays, of course, as you know, what's the first question that anyone asks anyone? What do you do?

• 22:02Speaker 00

  And according to how you answer that question, people are either really pleased to see you, or they kind of gently sideline you and you're left by the peanuts. And, you know, no one wants to talk to you. We live in a world, it could sound like an odd world, word, we live in a world of snobs. Now, the word snob is often associated with some kind of old English interest in like people with castles or, you know, ancient lineage. I don't mean that. Snobbery is really just any way of judging a human being according to one, but only one, aspect of their whole identity. Right. So if you meet a clothed snob and you say, you know, my, my, my jumper's from, you know, wherever, they'll go, you can't be a good person because, you know, you are so under invested in your fashion taste, right?

• 22:42Speaker 00

  Doesn't matter how pure your heart is or how great your poems are or whatever, you look, you know, your clothes are wrong, so that's a clothed snob. Now, the dominant form of snobbery in the modern world is, of course, job snobbery. And that's why, you know, the opposite of a snob is your mother, your mother, as it were, one's mother, the ideal mother, right? The ideal mother doesn't care how you've performed. She's maybe fictive, caring about who you are, but most people do not care who we are. They care how we have performed. And so, you know, we're often told, we live in such materialistic societies, the world's so materialistic, you know, we're all chasing money. I don't think we're actually chasing money.

• 23:22Speaker 00

  I think we're chasing the love and respect that money in our society brings. We have connected the possession of material goods with the possession of honour and respect. But, you know, if you, if you rearrange it a different way and you said, you know, you could own a plastic token and get love and respect, people would always want the plastic tokens. It's not, it's not the material goods we want, it's the emotional rewards, which actually, you know, sometimes we think people are very greedy. All they're doing is shopping for more things and buying fancy cars. But, you know, the next time you see a guy driving a Ferrari. Don't think this guy's a greedy person, you know, he's so vulgar and greedy and what.

• 24:03Speaker 00

  Just think this is somebody with a really intense need for love, right? Because often the avid pursuit of material goods is really masking something much more poignant, which is the avid pursuit of love and respect.

• 24:19Steven Bartlett?

  It was for my whole, my whole life. I, you know, I bought all the Louis Vuitton Range Rover mansion. In that chapter of my life where I was really trying to prove something to someone or be accepted by someone. And that's why I got it. And in fact, as the more secure I've gotten myself, the more you'll see me every day just wearing all black, no watch, no sports car. And leaning towards utility in the decisions that I make.

• 24:41Speaker 00

  That, that's so fascinating. And I think that is a journey. You know, one doesn't want to say these goods shouldn't be available to everybody. Of course, they can be available to everybody, but the question is, is your need for them coming from a wound or coming from a genuine desire? And when it comes from a wound, it's a problem because it's not going to solve the wound. That's the problem. Because, you know, the love that you're going to get, it's like, it's like fame. I always think, you know, a sure sign of being a good parent is that your children have no interest in being famous. Because, you know, fame is trying to satisfy a gap that should ideally be satisfied through more intimate human connections. But we do live in a world which doesn't have much time for that.

• 25:25Speaker 00

  And so both in the sort of economy of fame and the economy of material goods, we've, we've created a world where people are hugely incentivized to move away from what they really want, which is to be loved, to be seen, to be heard. And into a kind of vortex of material acquisition.

• 25:46Steven Bartlett?

  What is love? Let's, if we're talking about, let's talk about romantic love. What is that?

• 25:52Speaker 00

  Well, could I just first start by saying we're a bit confused about it? And, and so I can't give you an immediate answer, but I want to register that not just me, but the whole of the current world is confused about love. And I think we've been confused for about 200 years. And, and let's, let's go easy on ourselves here because the way in which we approach love now is a never before approached philosophy. You know, for about the last 250 years, we've been loving under the aegis of a philosophy we could call romanticism. And romanticism is, is a vision of love with very particular assumptions. Let me run through a few of them.

• 26:36Speaker 00

  There's one soulmate for everybody. You're gonna find this soulmate. You're gonna find them through slightly mysterious ways, possibly through almost something almost quasi divine, like you'll feel pulled, you'll meet them at the supermarket checkout line, the nightclub, and without even knowing too much about them, you will sense that they're your destiny. So you'll feel impelled towards somebody that you don't necessarily know too much of, a, a force will pull you and you will feel this is the one. And they will be an angel, literally a sort of descended being from, from another, another world. The romantics were very, very keen on the notion that you didn't have to know someone too well to understand them, even speaking not very much, the connection will be even

• 27:21Speaker 00

  deeper. The romantics also thought that love and sex absolutely belong together and that, that you couldn't have a millimeter of disjuncture between the two. Love and sex had sometimes drifted apart in the old world and that had been sometimes a problem, but it became a tragedy. So adultery moved from a difficulty to a tragedy. That's why all modern novels and films are all about the tragedy of adultery. So, look, these are some of the difficulties that the modern world has created. We, we tend to believe nowadays that love is an emotion that we should feel, never a skill that we should learn. You know, for example, if I said to you, We should probably study love. We should probably go to a school of love.

• 28:05Speaker 00

  You go, that's not very romantic. Now, every time, every time that someone says, that's not very romantic. Ding ding, that's normally a sign of a problem. Like, most things that don't sound very romantic are a good idea. And most things that are romantic, like marrying in Vegas after you've met someone for five minutes, is not so great. Now. What are we getting wrong? One of the things we're getting wrong is this whole business of instinct, right? So, we tend to believe that love will pull us instinctively towards marvelous people that will be correct for us. You know, the old world, people were set up in relationships.

• 28:47Speaker 00

  You'll marry this person because of this reason, you know, that person goes well with, with my family, blah, blah. In other words, nothing to do with you, you're put together with somebody. Nowadays, we're nominally free to choose anyone. Hooray, fantastic. Aren't we going to make great choices? Uh, no. Why don't we make great choices? Because we're not free. Why are we not free? We need to go to a psychotherapist to tell us why we're not free. We're not free to love just anyone. We love in tracks laid down for us by our childhoods. Adult love sits on top of tracks and a script laid down for us in childhood. You might go, what's the problem with that? So what?

• 29:28Speaker 00

  Well, what's problematic is that many of us had childhoods in which affection was mixed in with more problematic dynamics. That maybe in order to derive love in childhood, we also had to encounter somebody who was in a rage, someone who was violent, someone who was depressed, someone who put us down, someone who preferred another sibling, whatever it was. And we go into adulthood and we find that we're drawn to love stories that feel familiar because they're echoing some of childhood dynamics, but they don't necessarily, for that matter, lead to happiness. And, you know, sometimes we have situations where. Yeah, you set up a friend, let's say, you've got a really good friend and you know another friend. You think those people would really go well together. You set them up on a date and then you call them up afterwards.

• 30:13Speaker 00

  You say, so how did it go? You know, it must have gone really well. They say, I'm not sure, maybe something was lacking, a little spark. What they're really trying to get at is, they're not going to put it this way. Your friend, this date, did not show me signs that they would make me suffer in the way that I need to suffer in order to feel I'm in love. In other words, this relationship threatened to be happy. That's why I had to go away. So we are paradoxical creatures because our past was not necessarily happy. We're not necessarily that happy that our future romantic lives should be happy either. And this is something that, you know, they, they weren't thinking about that when love was reinvented 250 years ago.

• 30:58Steven Bartlett?

  When people say they have daddy issues and things like this. Are you saying then that there's often truth in that? Because they had an early experience with a father figure, a male figure in their life that might have left them or might have, you know, created a anxious attachment style or something. So they then end up pursuing dysfunctional men and relationships because that's the suffering that they associate with love.

• 31:23Speaker 00

  Sure, I mean, we repeat what we don't understand. And so long as we're unaware of the stories that we've grown up with, we will enact them in our adult lives. So we're not compelled to do this forever, but, and, and look, I, I think a lot of us have a desire to give the stories of our childhood a different ending. Our father might have been a distant and, you know, mean spirited creature, but also had some good qualities. The dream is to find somebody a bit like that, but to make sure that the story has a good resolution. So it's not merely a desire to repeat, it's a desire to repeat and give a better ending. But frequently, you know, we don't get there. And I think that.

• 32:07Speaker 00

  Look, the thing about psychology is we see all around us people doing so-called crazy things, you know, falling in love with people, not gonna make them happy, sabotaging their careers, not able to open up to people. And we think we can step back and go, why are they doing that stuff? What's going on? Now, one way to look at it, and it's a kind of compassionate way to look at it. A lot of the stuff that looks crazy now, once made a lot of sense. It was once probably a really clever thing to do. If you were growing up, let's say, in an environment in which, let's say, a parent was suicidal, right? A parent was suicidal,

• 32:50Speaker 00

  and you shut down your emotions totally and decided you would never trust anyone. Fantastic. That's a fantastically clever thing to do when you're five years old and you've got a suicidal parent, right? Because that will get you through to the next stage of life. If you open your heart at five and there's a parent who's suicidal, it'll tear you apart. So, good for you. You're doing something brilliantly clever, right? Or imagine somebody who becomes a clown as a child because there's a very sad atmosphere and there's a depression, and all they can have time for is jokes. They're just a manic joker, right? Brilliant! What a fantastic thing for a kid to work out, that they need to be quite a kind of manic

• 33:33Speaker 00

  joker. But what happens 10 years later, 20 years later, 30 years later, is that what used to be a fantastic defence against an intolerable situation has turned out to more or less ruin people's chances. Because the person, you know, with that difficult father, will end up never being able to open their heart to anyone, even a very safe person. They won't even know their heart's closed. But they will be acting out the same defensive strategy. Or the person who, you know, it was a great idea to be a bit of a joker early on, but now they have no time for anything serious, and their friends feel that they're a slightly plastic person, can never connect with them. That's a real toll in the adult world. So...

• 34:16Speaker 00

  You know, very often what we need to do is to say thank you to our younger selves for having devised strategies that really were clever. But at the same time, say, thank you. It's enough. I want to, I want to live in a different way. That was a fantastic strategy then. It may no longer be the right way for me to live now.

• 34:36Steven Bartlett?

  I was thinking as you were speaking about that, that there's kind of two groups of people. I was bouncing through different people that I know to see how it fit with them. And I identified in my mind that there's basically two groups of people there. The ones that are aware of their cycle, you know, and whether they've acted to change it or they're just reliving it, who knows? And the ones that are totally unaware that they're in this cycle. And they just think, oh, God, my luck, you know? They say phrases like that, just my luck. How does one increase their awareness of their own cycle? Do you think there's a way?

• 35:07Speaker 00

  Yes, so much that can be done. Let's imagine the very simplest exercise. Psychologists have these things called sentence completion tests, where you start with the stub of a question and then you end it with an ellipsis, a dot, dot, dot. And you say to somebody, don't think too much, just finish the sentence. And typical ones are, men are, dot, dot, dot. Women are, dot, dot, dot. I am, dot, dot, dot. Life, dot, dot, dot. Now, if you give somebody that sheet of paper and say to them, don't think too much, just write it down. All right? Amazing things bubble up. Men are, you know, authoritarian villains. Wow, where did that come from?

• 35:50Speaker 00

  Right, you're carrying, you know, women are, you know, whatever it is. Life, you know, I am, you know, a nobody who deserves to be stamped. Did you know a minute ago that you have that in you? Not necessarily. In other words, sometimes you need these little levers to shine a light. Now, a thing that really helps, and I'm not, you know, for your viewers, many therapists, many psychotherapists are not what they should be, but some are great. If you find yourself with a good psychotherapist, they can also increase your level of self-awareness. I think that's what we're talking about, increasing level of self-awareness. And, and. The reason is very simple. You know, there's stuff that we all do.

• 36:34Speaker 00

  Let's imagine, I don't know, when you're around a man, you think that person's judging me, therefore I'm going to withdraw and not enter into competition with them. I'm around a woman, I think I'm going to have to, you know, I'm going to be treated badly, therefore I'm, you know, whatever it is, something from your past is projected onto it. You end up in a therapy room with a man or a woman. And lo and behold, what do you do? You bring out that thing and you bring out that thing that you're doing normally. Except this time, you're not doing it in the office. You're not doing it in a relationship. You're not doing it in a context where people are busy and have got their own stuff going on and doing their own games. You're doing it with somebody, a trained professional in a quiet room. And they can see, it's like a petri dish. They can see the stuff that you're doing.

• 37:18Speaker 00

  And so suddenly you'll be saying to your therapist, I know you hate me. And the therapist will be going,

• 37:25Speaker 00

  I really don't think so, but I'm interested that you have that conviction that you do. Or someone will be going to the therapist, I need to look after you. I think you're quite tired and I really, you know, you've been doing such great work. I feel I want to look after you. Maybe you'd be doing that all your life and the therapist will be going, you don't need to look after me, but was there someone in your past that you needed to look after and that made you feel guilty? And that has meant that every time you're with somebody, you feel that their needs are more important than your needs. And there's a chance therefore to see more clearly than ever before, outside of the kind of hubbub of relationships or office life,

• 38:07Speaker 00

  the kind of stories that you're projecting onto reality to your huge cost.

• 38:11Steven Bartlett?

  So I'm now aware of my cycle that originates from my childhood. The next step is doing something about it. How do I overpower that sort of hard, wide urge to?

• 38:25Steven Bartlett?

  Repeat the cycle that comes from my childhood.

• 38:27Speaker 00

  Well, look, Stephen, let's not minimize. That's already an enormous achievement.

• 38:32Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 38:32Speaker 00

  You know what I mean? I mean, that's, that's, if, you know, if you're there, that you have a handle on, look, we don't need people to be perfect, right? We don't need to be perfect. At best, we need people to know how they're imperfect and that they can have a chance to warn us of their imperfections in good time before they've done too much damage. There's an enormous difference. I mean, look, again, take the, take the dating idea. Let's imagine, you know, I, I often say, don't do this to me because we're not, um, we're not on a date, but, um, but a great question to ask somebody on a date is how are you mad? How are you mad? Right? If the person says, I'm not mad, I'm completely sane, run away because it's, you know, everybody

• 39:17Speaker 00

  has folly inside them and we're approaching a measure of everyday tolerable sanity when we've put some flags in the areas of our madness. So total sanity is not a possibility for any human being. But the awareness of where the insanity lies and a little bit of warning and prompt apology, you know, after an incident goes a huge long way. You know, people often say, I'm looking for a partner with a good sense of humor. No one needs jokes. It's not, it's not about jokes. It's really about modesty about oneself, right? Somebody who's able to go, I think, I mean, look, take the other thing. If you meet somebody who thinks they're easy to live with, run away.

• 40:01Speaker 00

  No one's easy to live with and someone who thinks they're easy to live with is really trouble. So somebody who could put up their hand and go, you know what? Yeah, I'm a bit of, I'm, I'm pretty tricky to li- to, to live with. Great. That person is safer, not necessarily totally safe, but they're safer because they've started on the road to self-awareness. And so ultimately, the best we can do in this world is self-awareness, prompt apologies when we slip up. Um, yeah.

• 40:26Steven Bartlett?

  And a genuine intention to, uh, make progress, I guess.

• 40:33Steven Bartlett?

  Is that, is that important as well? So like me being aware that I have certain habits in my relationship is one thing, but then I think my partner would like to know that some of the destructive cycles I might have, I'm working on them. I'm at least trying to make forward motion.

• 40:51Speaker 00

  Yeah, totally. I mean, I think one of the most destructive ideas in the modern world is the idea that true love means accepting somebody for who they are in all of their, you know, all of their good and bad sides. It's a, it's a lovely dream. And you know, sometimes when you hear of breakups, they'll go, you know, my ex, you know, they just didn't accept me for who I was. And everyone will go, oh, yes, God, what a terrible person, you know, how awful. But, you know, politely, one wants to go, hang on a minute. Do any of us really deserve to be loved for the whole of who we are? Is that really a fair expectation? Or isn't, as you suggest, isn't it fairer to suppose that all of us are works in progress? And that, you know, there is nothing contrary to the spirit of love in

• 41:36Speaker 00

  a desire to improve. The ancient Greeks had this right. You know, for the ancient Greeks, Plato saw love as a classroom. Beautiful idea. Love is a classroom in which two people in a spirit of generosity and kindness. I mean, we're not talking about shouting here. We're talking about generosity and kindness. Two people endeavor to help each other to become the best version of themselves, of each other, right? That, that love is geared towards progress and working on yourself. That sounds very odd nowadays. And if you, if you went around saying, I've read some Plato and he's kind of guiding me towards the idea that love is a classroom. So therefore I'm going to give you a 40 minute lecture on some of your flaws. And then I'd like you to give me a 40 minute lecture on some of my flaws. This would be considered, ding ding ding, unromantic, right? That's not

• 42:21Speaker 00

  very romantic, is it? Doesn't mean it's a bad idea. As I say, love is a skill to be learnt, not just an emotion to be felt. And some of that means that we might need to go back to school.

• 42:34Steven Bartlett?

  I've been thinking more recently that most relationships, the success of most relationship comes down to this idea of like, how good you are at conflict resolution. Because I've had a previous relationship where we both can take the blame per se, we were just not good at conflict resolution. And then I've had a more recent relationship where we're very, we seem to be much better. Not perfect, but much better at conflict resolution. And it makes all the difference.

• 43:01Speaker 00

  But I think, Stephen, you know, It's not, if you were bad at conflict resolution, it's not just your fault. It's, it's partly the way our society works. Come back to the idea of romanticism, right? Romanticism gives us this extraordinary idea that love is something that should be felt and communicated without words, right? So the, the most romantic people thing, the most romantic sentence that often people will say is, I met this person and we didn't even need to speak. We just felt on the same page. Everyone goes, oh, how romantic, ding ding, danger. Because it's, you know, well, this leads to a catastrophic outbreak of sulking, right? What is sulking, right? What is a sulk?

• 43:43Speaker 00

  A sulk is a fascinating pattern of behaviour where you get very angry with someone because they have not understood you without, even though you haven't said anything, they've not understood you and you get offended because you think, because you're a romantic person, you think they can't possibly love me because true love means understanding somebody, you know, intuitively, wordlessly, and therefore I'm not going to speak. And so, you know, you're coming back from a party with your, with your partner and they say to you, is anything wrong darling? And you go, mm, of course there is, but you're not going to tell them. And then they start saying, come on, you can tell me what's wrong. And, and the sulking person goes, no. And this can go on and on and on. I mean, you know, we're all, we've all been at it sometimes, you know?

• 44:26Speaker 00

  You, you go home, you go straight upstairs, you go to the bathroom, you shut the door and then your partner's kind of knocking at the door, going, please darling, just, just tell me what's wrong. And you go from behind the door, no. And, and the reason is that you're a romantic and you believe that your partner should have miraculous, almost alien capacities to look through the bathroom door into your gnarled and wounded soul to understand what the upset is. But of course they can't because they're just human, you know? Takes us a long time to realise that other humans are not mind readers, you know? First thing we should always ask is, have I told them this? I I know I'm upset, but did I tell them this? And so often the answer is not quite because we're romantics.

• 45:09Speaker 00

  And so we have to do that really, I mean, you know, we can accept it's really boring. We've got to use words. We've got to painfully stack up words and go, ahem, the reason that I'm getting a little tetchy is because, and you've got to explain yourself. It's not very romantic, but that is normally a sign. It's a good idea.

• 45:28Steven Bartlett?

  So honesty, I I've struggled at times to be completely honest in my relationships when I felt like the honesty might hurt them. So can we have true love and total honesty?

• 45:43Speaker 00

  I believe that the the wish to tell someone absolutely everything is is both beautiful and ultimately utopian in a problematic way. Because we, all of us, have within us ambivalences, doubts, unfaithful thoughts, et cetera. And it isn't the work of love to rub your partner constantly up against the most troubling, disturbed sides of your psyche. Now, we're not talking, this is not an advocacy for sort of total mendacity and lies, but it is an advertisement for editing.

• 46:22Speaker 00

  You know, we should hope that we don't meet the fullest version of each other all the time. You know, I know it sounds romantic, but sometimes it's, as parents know, is it is it that great as a parent to tell your child absolutely everything about what's going through you? Well, sometimes, you know, is there a role for saying, I'm just going to edit myself, not in the name of subterfuge or deceit, but in the name of love? That love could be compatible with an editing of certain aspects of your reality.

• 46:57Steven Bartlett?

  One of the areas where a lot of editing happens is in the bedroom, in relationships, in sex, in sexless relationships. I was looking through some statistics earlier on because I know that you've talked quite extensively on relationships and sex and sexless relationships. I found this stat that says a 2022 study by Relate, a UK-based counselling network, found that 26% of people in relationships were having sex less than 10 times per year and 8% were having no sex at all. This is a stark rise from 2018, where the numbers were quite significantly lower than that. It seems like as a society, we're getting increasingly sexless.

• 47:42Speaker 00

  Yeah, so the question is, where's the problem? Is the problem in the body or is the problem in the mind? Now, you know, being the kind of guy I am, I'm going to shift us to the mind. I'm sure sometimes there are bodily issues and, you know, they deserve attention too. But if I can talk about the mind, why is it that sex is easier at the beginning than in a long-term relationship? One of the leading answers is anger. It's not very easy to have sex or want sex with someone that you're angry with. And in many relationships, there's a lot of stored anger that neither party knows is there. And that anger has come from micro incidents of disappointment. Someone didn't quite call when they said they would.

• 48:27Speaker 00

  Someone didn't laugh when they might have done. Someone didn't show generosity when it might have been required. And these things get stored up. And the result of too much of this is that you don't want someone going anywhere near you.

• 48:40Steven Bartlett?

  Contempt.

• 48:40Speaker 00

  Because you're furious, you're essentially furious. But in the way of these things, you don't know you are. You don't know you're furious. Again, you know, the mind is not obvious to itself. So, you know, if you want to have more sex, don't just invest in candles and fancy linen. A quite useful thing to do is to go and have dinner with your partner and say to them,

• 49:03Speaker 00

  We're both going to ask each other how we've annoyed each other. Because we have annoyed each other, not because we're evil people, but because we're human and we're in a relationship. And no relationship survives more than an hour without a buildup of frustration. And the more we can let out that frustration at the dinner table, the more it won't, you know, create a blockage in the bedroom. And so the chance to discharge frustration and, you know, often the reason why we don't tell our partners what our frustrations are is that they sound ridiculous. It's like, well, hang on, you're upset with me because I used the word really in what you thought placed too much emphasis on the why when I was speaking to your mother.

• 49:43Speaker 00

  Are you crazy, right? You are laying yourself open to your partner, pointing to you going, are you crazy? But I think that we're all in love, very small children, at least a small part of us is. And as we know, small children get upset about really weird tiny things. You know, you'll move a button and they start wailing and you go, what's happened? And they go, you moved a button. And you go, I did? Why does that matter? But for them it matters. Or, you know, a pencil has slightly changed direction. So we should learn, we should remember what it felt like to be a child. And we should acknowledge that there remains, even an adult who's very competent in all sorts of areas, a small child who is liable to be getting very upset about small things.

• 50:23Steven Bartlett?

  Triggered.

• 50:23Speaker 00

  Triggered. But because they're an adult, this is the problem. We, we think, well, an adult can't possibly be having such childish reactions. Again, we need to just cast aside our fears of shame and say, you know what? Yes, an adult can get very upset about tiny things. An adult probably is upset about tiny things and we're doing ourselves an honour when we can dare to reveal this to our partner and they can do likewise.

• 50:51Steven Bartlett?

  So if I'm, if I'm someone listening to this now and I'm in a relationship where I don't think, because it's interesting, even when I say I don't think I'm having enough sex, the idea of how much sex is enough sex has probably come from movies, which is a bit of a trap as well, right? But if I'm in a relationship and we are in a sexless relationship, by whatever definition. Solution one you presented there is try and resolve the anger, the underlying contempt.

• 51:18Steven Bartlett?

  Are there anything else that you think is effective ways of solving for that?

• 51:22Speaker 00

  Look, I think we, I think one useful thing to do is to go, why does sex matter? What is this thing called sex? Why, why does it matter? And when people get very upset, I think the answer tends to be that sex is a symbol of something very poignant and very delicate, which is my partner loves me. And they can, the reason why it becomes such an acute issue is that they cannot hold on to the idea that the partner might love them and might not want sex. This is psychologically impossible. Now, it is important to say, it is possible. It is possible that your partner both loves you and doesn't want to have sex. There could be other reasons, they're feeling unwell, da da da. So, and then we can ask ourselves, what does sex really aim at?

• 52:04Speaker 00

  Sex aims at intimacy, you know, even we'll say they, you know, in, in, in people's polite language, they became intimate, which means they had sex. So what, what we know about sex is that the really exciting thing about sex is not the sex bit, it's the intimate bit. It's the idea that someone is without their guard. You know, most of the time we approach other people with our guards on. And in this very rare and unusual thing we do, we meet another human being in a vulnerable state. And this is such a relief from the normal limitations of life. And there are other ways of doing this, you know, sex is not the only way of doing it.

• 52:44Speaker 00

  So by understanding better what sex is, we can also have a chance to get some of what we get in sex in things that are not sex, if that makes sense.

• 52:55Steven Bartlett?

  I had Tracy Cox on the podcast and she said something to me which really stuck with me because I hadn't noticed it until she said it, which is this idea, I believe she called otherness, which is when your partner almost becomes like a family member or you start seeing them as like a sibling because they are in their sweatpants around you. And she made the claim, which I think I've read in your books as well, that in many respects, that's the very opposite of the

• 53:24Steven Bartlett?

  The spice that makes sex so appealing in those early days, when it's new and novel and risky, you know, and so she kind of alluded to the fact that love and sex were actually sit on two different ends of a pole.

• 53:36Speaker 00

  Right, and again, to come back to my theme, what does a romantic say? A romantic, romanticism tells us sex and love belong entirely together. But I think what you're saying, and you know, what many of your viewers will know, is that the relationship is, is trickier. And again, let's not torture ourselves about this. Let's, let's get curious and then let's communicate about this. And I think that, look, a growing child has a paradox to deal with. And this is what Freud famously, doesn't matter what you think of Freud, very useful observation really, that the child experiences love.

• 54:20Speaker 00

  In the first instance, at the beginning of life, we all experience love. At the hands of people who, if everything's gone right, we will have no sexual connection with, right? So, given the debt that adult love owes to childhood, that sets us up with a problem when we as adults start to fall in love with people and start to build up relationships, which is that the more we get cozy with someone, the more we feel like we did a little bit with our parents when things were really cozy. Which is oddly why people like going to hotels. Why do people like going to hotels? To revive a relationship. It's because the furniture doesn't remember you. The curtains don't remember you.

• 55:03Speaker 00

  You are, you're allowed to be, for a chosen moment, somebody without the history. And it's the history that is making intimacy hard, because that history, while it's knitting you together and making you emotionally close, is also rendering.

• 55:20Speaker 00

  Sexual freedom problematic. And I think it's just, we need to go very easy on ourselves for the fact that this happens. And.

• 55:30Steven Bartlett?

  What do we do about it, though? Do I need to book a lot of hotel rooms? Do I need to spend a lot of time away from my partner?

• 55:35Speaker 00

  I noticed even that you're laughing, you're smiling as you say that. And I think that's partly the clue. You know, when we come up against the hardest conundrums in in life, having the tolerance of a sense of humour, a shared sense of humour. You know, if a couple can turn the sexual challenges from a tragedy into something, you know, closer to a comedy, it's an enormous achievement. Think of, you know, think of teasing, right? There are sides of couples that they find really, really hard. Isn't it wonderful when a couple learns with affection to tease one another? They go, oh, Stephen, yeah, there's that thing that you do. It gives you a little nickname, calls you whatever it is, you know, a little affectionate nickname.

• 56:17Speaker 00

  That's a wonderful moment because it means that irritation has been sublimated into tender, compassionate understanding for why someone is as difficult as they are. So the best thing we can do with our irritations with our partners is to be able to tease our way out of them. And we may need to do this in troublesome areas like like sex. It's an enormous achievement if your partner can call you, you know, can go from thinking that you are an idiot to smiling at you and thinking you're a lovable idiot, right? We're all, in the end of the day, a lovable idiot. We don't need to believe in God, but if God was watching us from up there on the space station, we are all, you know, eight billion lovable idiots. And once we can have that sort of compassionate relationship to ourselves,

• 57:02Speaker 00

  that's the beginning of a big bit of the, big bit of the solution.

• 57:05Steven Bartlett?

  I often think, you know, I've been in my relationship now for a couple of years. I think, how do I stop my partner getting bored of me? Will they become a day? Sometimes it does cross my mind, like, is she just gonna get like bored of me? And also, you know, vice versa, you think of being with someone for like forty, fifty, sixty years. I'm sure some people listening have been with their partners for multi decades. Is there a risk of us getting bored of our partner and then seeking the sort of, you know, the novelty in affairs? And how do we prevent that?

• 57:34Speaker 00

  Okay, well, look, here's one suggestion. The thing that becomes very boring in all relationships is when people cease to listen to each other. Now. You know, when you say the word listen, you've got to think, oh, yeah, I know what that means. Hang on, let's complicate this issue a little bit, usefully. To, you know, most of us have never been listened to properly. It's not something that normally we know how to do. We know how to speak, you know, there are, there are, there are lessons in how to become a good public speaker. Not very many lessons in how to become a good listener, right? And that's telling us something. So what is it to listen? Imagine a situation where someone says something to you and rather than you jumping in going, oh, that reminds me of, you know, something happened with my auntie, or that reminds me of, or, you know, starting to give advice and going, the thing that you need to remember is one, two, three, four, right?

• 58:19Speaker 00

  Which is normally what we do when people speak. Is to simply hold back, and therapists are good at doing this, and simply do what they call reflexive listening. So, you know, you say to somebody, um, I'm really annoyed, I've had such a difficult day at work. This happened, that happened, that happened. And then you simply repeat back to them, using slightly different words, the essence of what they've said. And you say, I'm hearing that life's quite difficult for you at the moment at work. And that you, you know, coming under pressure from your boss. And the person, you know, it'll be, try it, because the person will immediately feel, I'm being heard. And then they will have, they'll feel more, they understand more about themselves, you know. Why is it that in the company of some people, we feel really interesting and have lots to say?

• 59:01Speaker 00

  And then company of others, we kind of feel a bit bored, we don't have anything to say, we're the same people. It's because we feel, we intuit that we're in the presence of a listener. And the best way to listen is literally to not give advice, not, um, give anecdotes, but repeat back to somebody what they've said in slightly different words. And I mean, you know, parents, bless them. I've been a parent, we've all been parents, many of us been parents. Parents are often quite bad at listening to their children, they think they're listening. I, I was in a holiday resort. A few months ago, and there was this kid, little kid must have been three or four. And it was having a bad day. It was really screaming.

• 59:43Speaker 00

  And the parent, the mother was saying, might be the mother, someone was saying, um, what's, what's wrong? Um, and the kid was saying, I hate it here. The whole place smells. Um, it's a poo and I want to be back home at kindergarten. And the caregiver said, don't be so silly, darling. We're on holiday. Holidays are fun. And what's more, this hotel has cost a lot of money. And you want to go, okay, I get it. This woman was trying to help. She was trying to, you know, calm down this, this distressed child. Was she listening? Not really. Cause basically what the kid was saying is, I'm having a really bad day. Everything feels absolutely disastrous. Help me. Ah, right? And we're all, we all have a version of those days.

• 1:00:26Speaker 00

  And we don't want to be told, come on, you're living in really wonderful times. The sun is shining, you know, uh, there's lots to celebrate. We want someone to go. I hear things are bad for you. I'm hearing things are bad for you. Um, I'm hearing you're not coping very well. And you're pretty sad. Now, if you do that, don't rush them, don't give advice, don't give, you know, you will get a great response back. We can put money on it.

• 1:00:59Steven Bartlett?

  Listening, what are the, um, the other core components then? Cause I really want to close off this topic on love and sexless relationships. What would you say are the core components or the core habits of two people who have a really successful, long-term, enduring sexual and romantic relationship? If we just focus on the, this, the sex side of things first, what are those core habits? So I guess communications, when that's come through quite loudly.

• 1:01:27Speaker 00

  Look, I'd start a little bit further upstream and go like, overall, what do these guys need to do? And I think overall, they both need to acknowledge that they are frail, fragile, slightly crazy people because, not because they are them, but because they're human and there's no other option for a human being than to be slightly crazy. And nevertheless, against that background, they're attempting to do their best, right? So that the combination of an acknowledgement of their fallible nature, mixed in with a dedication to trying to understand it through broadly therapeutic means. So this is a very crucial thing. The other absolutely crucial thing is an acknowledgement that a lot of what people will be getting up to in relationships

• 1:02:11Speaker 00

  will have nothing to do with the person in front of you. That you will be importing from different periods of your life, scenarios and assumptions that owe nothing to the here and now, and owe quite a lot to mum, dad, caregivers and other scenarios. And the capacity to acknowledge that with grace, to say, okay, I'm sorry. I'm, you know, I'm getting confused about who's in front of me, right? I am importing into this situation an energy that doesn't belong there. We all do this. The whole basis of attachment theory, let's remind ourselves, is that your attachment style is governed by your first attachment, the attachment that you had with a parental figure.

• 1:02:50Speaker 00

  And therefore, you know, you will be, let's say, insecurely preoccupied, attached to somebody. Not because they deserve that quality of attachment, because your early caregiver did. That's, that's what they mandated through their own behaviour. But your partner, maybe someone completely different, is someone completely different. So if I can put it this way, getting on top of your projections, we project wildly as human beings, and being able to have at least a sense that the person in front of you may not be entirely who you think they are, and that reality in the here and now may be slightly more innocent. And I think, you know, you owe it to yourself. It's, look, it's so boring. I'm sorry, Stephen.

• 1:03:34Speaker 00

  I'm sorry to your listeners. You have to get on top of your childhood. It's so boring to be told this, to be, to be thirty, forty, fifty, sixty, and to be told that you have to get on top of your childhood. I mean, my goodness, this is not a nostalgia fest. The only reason is so you can put the damn thing to bed and never have to think about it again, but it's going to be rattling around unless you have done so. And I think it's so, look, think of language. All of us, when we were kids, we were put in an environment where without us doing anything, we learnt an entire language with syntax, grammar, a complicated vocabulary, et cetera. And this happened while we were doing handstands in the garden, drawing buttercups in the kitchen, et cetera. We absorbed an entire language and we had no idea.

• 1:04:20Speaker 00

  The same thing was going on emotionally. We learnt an emotional language, not a language about grammar and vocabulary, but a language about trust, a language about self-esteem, a language about who we are, a language about what will happen to us when we trust someone, a language about whether it's safe to go with someone, to be ourselves, et cetera. We learnt that whole language and we have no idea we learnt it, just that we have no idea we ever learnt our language of birth. It just happened, but it's inside us, no less than the grammatical language. And what we have to do, and it's just as difficult as learning in adulthood, you know how difficult it is. Imagine if I said you learn Finnish now, now you're going to learn Finnish.

• 1:05:01Speaker 00

  Or next week, we're going to go off and we're going to learn, you know, I don't know, Korean, right? You'd be like, in a week? Uh, well, it's going to take a long time, isn't it? We're going to have to do this for a long time.

• 1:05:12Steven Bartlett?

  Do you know what? I'd say there's two things I'd reply if you told me to learn Finnish. First one is, God, that's going to, this is what I think, that's going to take forever. And the second one is, what's the point?

• 1:05:22Speaker 00

  But I'd also say, let's say, we're not trying to learn Finnish, we're trying to learn trust. Let's say we're not trying to learn Korean, we're trying to learn the lesson of vulnerability, safe vulnerability, right? These are very valuable lessons, very valuable lessons that we need in our relationships.

• 1:05:38Steven Bartlett?

  I say that because I I point at the childhood patterns that you're talking about. And I think one of the reasons why people don't open up that closet and do the work there is because they don't realise that that is the puppet master dictating their career, relationships and everything in between. So I think step one is like them understanding the impact that that childhood narrative is having today.

• 1:05:57Speaker 00

  Yeah. And and then also realising, you know, this is where language can be a useful metaphor, is is about time. Because sometimes people say, okay, so I I understand, I I saw, I listened to podcasts, a great, great guy, Stephen, you know, really gets on top of it, listened to many of his podcasts. Problem is, after three podcasts, I'm not healed. And you want to go, look, how many lessons of Finnish or Korean did you do? Oh, three. Are you fluent? Not quite. I might need another hundred and fifty.

• 1:06:24Steven Bartlett?

  Yes, you need a hundred and fifty more.

• 1:06:26Speaker 00

  Well, in other words, we need to take it slowly and we need to repeat these things. You know, we're talking about religion earlier. One of the things about religions is they understand that our minds are like sieves. You know, take Islam. Islam wants us to remember their god three, four, five times a day. In many religions, you're on your knees constantly because they know, these religions know that it goes in one ear, it goes out the other. It comes, you know, that that we're not very good at holding on to the, even the truths that we are most attached to. And I think part of the problem of the modern world is we tend to think, I'll just listen to that idea once. I'll just read an interesting book, said said something to me once, and now I'm going to change my life. You want to go, no, no, you know, again, think of the holy books. How many times are you supposed to

• 1:07:07Speaker 00

  read the Bible, the Quran, it's a Buddhist text, every day? Because we're not very good at holding on, even to the things on which our lives depend.

• 1:07:16Steven Bartlett?

  Is there a risk, though, in this sort of healing culture, where we're all just healing forever? And we're all kind of like, broken and trying to recover from our early years where someone snatched candy out of our hands or something? Is there, I read an article a couple of weeks ago, and it said there was a bit of a, bit of a risk to this long term, ongoing healing mentality that we're.

• 1:07:38Speaker 00

  Look, I sense your frustration and I share it. It would be so nice if we could just get on with life without having to bother with all this stuff. I understand, but I think, Stephen, the thing you have to bear in mind is we are no longer merely trying to survive. We're trying to thrive, right? The age of survival is behind us. You know, we're not just looking to reach the age of thirty and then collapse into bed and thinking, you know, it's been fantastic life, I've not been butchered by an enemy, right? You know, we want to reach eighty, eighty-five, and we want not just survival, we want fulfillment. And if we want that, we're going to have to pay attention to things that previous generations didn't. Again, let me use another metaphor, right?

• 1:08:21Speaker 00

  For most of human history, people, here I am drinking a glass of water, right? People didn't pay much attention to water. If it looked like there wasn't anything actively floating in it like a frog or something, they'd think it's clean water, right? I'd just gulp it back. And through such nonchalance, if I can put it that way, millions of people died, okay? And then towards the end of the nineteenth century, at about the very same time that Sigmund Freud in Vienna was getting going, helping us to think about certain things in the psyche, various people got very interested in water supply. And all the main cities, Paris, London, New York, got a complete overhaul of their water supplies because it was suddenly discovered that microscopic organisms could kill hundreds of thousands of people. In a glass of water that looked completely clear, you might have enough to kill a city, right?

• 1:09:06Speaker 00

  And this is deeply perplexing, you think, hang on a minute, it's just a glass of water, it must be fine. And, you know, I don't want to be hard on you, but in that tone of like, really? Can we be bothered with that old childhood stuff? Why don't you just get on with it? You want to go, unfortunately, we have to take care because there are macrobiotic organisms, as it were, in our lives that are gumming up our capacities for fulfillment. And it's not necessarily that they're going to kill us, but they will hamper our capacity to be. To exploit our full potential. And after all, you know, this is what this podcast is about. This is what many people are concerned about, and it's going to require work.

• 1:09:46Steven Bartlett?

  Can we ever truly heal from those things? Can, or will they always be there in the back room just exerting less power over us?

• 1:09:55Speaker 00

  Look, wonderful German philosopher Schopenhauer, he says that the goal of life is to turn tears into knowledge. Wonderful progress, tears. What are you going to do with those? They just end up on your pillow. They might end up, you know, being things you can learn from. So I think the best we can do is to learn, to turn so many of the troubles that afflict us, you know, no life is without affliction. But that moment when we go, you know what, I've learned something from this torment. This was a total nightmare, but I've pulled out of it, something about myself, about human nature, about psychology. Then we're really learning. Then we're really on the path to a good life, because a good life is not a problematic free life. It's a life in which we've found a way of learning from our inevitable pains.

• 1:10:40Steven Bartlett?

  You will never find the right person. I read that sentence and that sounded a little bit

• 1:10:45Steven Bartlett?

  negative. I think I read it in your book. You will never find the right person.

• 1:10:50Speaker 00

  Well, I was teasing gently our old friends, the romantics, who tell us that of course we will find the right person. And the belief in the right person has led to more rage, more disappointment, more frustration than any other. You know, if you tell people you will find the right person, if you build up a model of what it will mean to find the right person, you will be dooming people to disappointment if, for example, they meet somebody who's really good. In many ways, very, very good, but they've had an argument with them. Well, I'm not supposed to argue with somebody that is the right person. We're supposed to be blissful. So I'm teasing really the concept of rightness. Rightness can include a lot of wrongness. And that's why, you know, wonderful English psychoanalyst Donald Winnicott,

• 1:11:35Speaker 00

  who came up with this phrase, a good enough, he applied it to parenthood. He argued that no child needs a perfect parent. Indeed, it's quite dangerous to have a perfect parent because you never leave home. Quite good to have a parent who causes you a few frustration. It'll, it'll get you out there. But he argued, no one needs a perfect parent. No one needs a perfect lover. They need a good enough parent, a good enough lover.

• 1:11:57Steven Bartlett?

  Do you think that people that are in relationships, romantic relationships, should spend time apart?

• 1:12:03Steven Bartlett?

  Do you think that's healthy for the stuff we've talked about with sexlessness and stuff? Because I think I tend to get more excited about sex with my partner when she's been away for a while and there's a real novelty to it.

• 1:12:14Speaker 00

  Yes, look, I think one of the things that distance can do is to remind you that there is no preordained reason why someone should be with you. I mean, it's one of the most miraculous things that anyone should choose to be with anyone, because anyone is a quite complicated proposition. And some of the mystery of that can kind of, you know, achieve its necessary force after a period away. Look, it's like being very ill. Imagine being ill for a while, you've not been in the world for very long, for a while. Suddenly you're feeling better, you go out into the world, you go to the park and suddenly, oh my God, there's this thing called a tree. It's amazing, it's got leaves, there are some bugs crawling all over, there's something called grass, there's a brick wall.

• 1:12:58Speaker 00

  You are suddenly like a three-year-old, full of appreciation and wonder. And one of the great challenges of life is how to keep being people who have wonder in their life, because habit swallows everything up. You go, oh yeah, tree, yeah, I know what those are, I know what a tree's like. That's why we need art, you know, for example. I mean, what's the point of art? Small topic, let's bite that one off too. What's the point of art? Well, one of the things that happens when you go to one of these places called galleries or museums is they're full of paintings by people who look at the world as though they've never seen it before. Maybe it's their wife or husband. They look at their wife or husband as though they've never seen them before. And lo and behold, quite an amazing thing. Wow, it's kind of amazing, it's full of tenderness and beauty and compassion and interest. Wow, I could, you know, I could like this person.

• 1:13:43Speaker 00

  They look at a tree, they look at a cloud, they look at the grass. And, you know, we are, part of what makes children, small children, so fascinating but also frustrating is you suggest a walk to the park. It takes them an hour and a half to go to the park. Why? Because everything's interesting. What have we done with those layers of interest that we also used to possess? We think we know what's going on, but we don't. And one of the wonderful things that children can remind us is the foreignness, the true foreignness of a world that we feel we know, we feel we've seen, but we haven't actually looked at.

• 1:14:22Steven Bartlett?

  You say on page seventy five of that book that the solution to long term sexual stagnation is to learn to see our lover as if we had never laid eyes on him or her before. It feels so natural, though, that through this process of sort of habituation, everything in our lives becomes less, yields less joy than it once did. And I, and I often fight with that because, you know, as things get financially more, as you get more financially free in life, you're able to experience the, you know, the nice restaurants and the nice things and the nice holidays and the nice planes, all those kinds of things. But with that, the awe and the surprise escapes you.

• 1:14:58Speaker 00

  Absolutely, and I think we need to work at it. The Buddhists were on to this, the wonderful Buddhist scroll from the Middle Ages, medieval scroll, six persimmons, you know, persimmon, a kind of fruit, it's got a bit like an apple. And it's just six persimmons on a, on a canvas, beautiful rendition. And the idea is that the Buddhist sage is meant to look at those six persimmons for an hour. The true one could, could keep going for even a day, right? Just six persimmons, right? And you might go, hang on a minute, can I change the channel, please? Can I look at something else? The capacity to stare intensely at something and draw benefit from it is absolutely something

• 1:15:41Speaker 00

  that we lose, especially as life gets more, more dizzying. The, the thing to bear in mind is, life can ever only be so exciting. It's not by more stimulation that you ever, if your senses are wrecked, if you're unable to draw benefit from one lemon, having a thousand lemons or a sports car isn't going to make you more of an appreciator. The goal is to learn to appreciate more of what we've already seen. And that is, you know, we talk about gym and exercises and, and workouts, it's something we need to do. I mean, it's, it's literally, learning to see and to appreciate is a skill. And you can dial it up or dial it down. And as I say, one of the good things about works of art is they are records of careful looking by people.

• 1:16:25Speaker 00

  They might not be looking at things you're looking at, but it's less about what you're looking at, that it's a method of looking that you can learn from.

• 1:16:33Steven Bartlett?

  A therapeutic journey, Lessons from the School of Life, the Sunday Times bestselling author of The School of Life. I've seen this book everywhere. I walk into bookshops all the time and I just wish my book had the prominence.

• 1:16:47Speaker 00

  It does.

• 1:16:48Steven Bartlett?

  No, I saw it. Yeah, I was in a Foyle's the other day, and I think you've got some signed copies in there.

• 1:16:52Speaker 00

  I might be.

• 1:16:53Steven Bartlett?

  I picked up one, yeah. Why, why did you write a book called A Therapeutic Journey? Because I have to say,

• 1:17:02Steven Bartlett?

  you, you have written.

• 1:17:05Speaker 00

  Lots and lots. A bit too much.

• 1:17:07Steven Bartlett?

  A lot of books. I mean, this is not even half of them.

• 1:17:09Speaker 00

  No.

• 1:17:09Steven Bartlett?

  There's about 70 of them.

• 1:17:10Speaker 00

  Yeah. This book, A Therapeutic Journey, it's really following the arc of what one could call mental breakdown or a mental, a mental crisis from the moment of its inception, the moment it strikes us, through to the moment of recovery. And then I go into lots of byways and lots of, you know, lots of digressions. But essentially, it's saying, how can we keep our minds safe? How can we help them to heal? What can we do when we are in a mental crisis? It's written in a tone, I hope, of sympathy, of kindness, and also trying to give people a sense of what's happening to me. Because very often, you know, when, when there is a breakdown, we don't know what on earth's going on.

• 1:17:55Speaker 00

  You know, yesterday, we were happy-go-lucky. Now, we can't get out of bed. Yesterday, we were able to hold it together. Now, everything that comes out of our mouth makes no sense. So I think that the, it's, it's, it's supposed to be a companion through what might be some of our loneliest hours.

• 1:18:11Steven Bartlett?

  Why do we need this book right now, do you think, in society?

• 1:18:14Speaker 00

  I think because, look, I hope that people will think, hmm, okay, this is written from a place of somebody who probably gets what, what they're saying and what I'm feeling. I think we need companions through things that probably feel very personal, but are actually, this is the good news, very general. But I think, you know, at the School of Life, we see so many people who are going through these things. And the thing that each one thinks is, I'm alone. And the best thing you can say to people is say, no, you're not. And the reason they think they're alone is that, you know, it's a paradox of human beings. We only know people from what they choose to tell us, but we know our own minds from introspection.

• 1:18:54Speaker 00

  And so there's a massive sort of cognitive gap between self-knowledge and knowledge of others. And in that gap, shame develops, right? And there's so much shame around mental illness because it's still, as we know, so rarely spoken about. And so the book aims to rehabilitate, to educate, and to comfort.

• 1:19:17Steven Bartlett?

  This is a book about getting unwell, imagining that we have let everyone down and losing direction and hope. It's also a book about redemption, about regaining the thread, rediscovering meaning and finding a way back to connection, warmth and joy.

• 1:19:35Steven Bartlett?

  What are the ways in which we're unwell?

• 1:19:38Steven Bartlett?

  Increasingly.

• 1:19:39Speaker 00

  Well, you know, it's very hard. When your mind is operating well, you almost don't notice what it's doing because it's doing so many things to keep you feeling, you know, even have that word, "normal", right? How do you feel? "I feel normal. Yeah, that's my baseline. That's just, that's just how I am." It's, it's the result of, we could call it gifts, because when those gifts are taken away, goodness me, do you notice, right? So, for example, there's something in our mind, in a well-functioning mind, that more or less keeps us on our side, right? There would be so many reasons for all of us to despair of who we are. You know, why would I be on, why would I be on my side? I've made mistakes, I'm not perfect, et cetera. But most of us, you know, on a, on a good

• 1:20:22Speaker 00

  day, Stephen will go, "Look, I'm not perfect, but you know, I'm okay. I can keep going." When you're mentally unwell, that, that faculty breaks down and suddenly you can't abide your own self, you can't forgive yourself. You know, there are people who are unwell, who will say, "17 years ago, I said something to someone and I can't forgive myself." And you want to go, "That's 17 years ago. It's okay." And they can't let it go. That's what illness is. Illness is not being able to let go of an argument against yourself because you've turned into your own worst enemy. The other thing that, that people manage to do in a, in a healthy mind is bracket things so that not all the things that could be in your mind are active in your mind at any point, right? So you're able to sequence

• 1:21:06Speaker 00

  thoughts. So you think, you know, "Well, you know, I've got this to do. I'm interviewing this guy now. Tomorrow I'll be in New York. There's also a thing with my granny and there's also a thing with a friend, et cetera." But those thoughts are sequenced. You're able to line them up in, in a coherent order. When health breaks down, all of these things come at all angles. There's no order anymore, there's no hierarchy. So something that happened 10 years ago is expressing something that's happening right now. Something that's deeply urgent collides with something that, you know, by rational means is not that urgent, but it seems as urgent. And so everything coherent breaks down. You can no longer order things. There are voices that start coming in, not friendly voices. All of us have voices in our minds, not necessarily, you know, they're not, I'm not talking about psychotic voices,

• 1:21:51Speaker 00

  but there are voices, voices of encouragement often. You can keep going, just, just, you know, do it, or it's okay. You could dare to take that risk. Often kindly voices that we've incorporated from kind people around us. When mental health breaks down, we can only hear the worst voices. The voices that are telling us, you don't deserve to be here. You've made a mistake and we don't want you here anymore. Better thing would be if you didn't exist, those voices. And those voices don't let up. And then we're in trouble. And we need to raise the white flag because things are not well. And sometimes we keep going, we're so good at keeping going that it's terrible. Half the problem is that we keep going so well, you know, we're, we're half dead before we realize there's a problem. Right?

• 1:22:35Speaker 00

  And so the ability to go, hang on, hang on, I can't take it anymore. That is the beginning of being, knowing how to get help. Because when the mind is in trouble, what it most needs is another mind. It's like calibration, right? When you've lost the correct calibration, you need somebody else to go, you know, when you go, everyone hates me and it's all terrible and nothing I've done is of any value. Just have another mind that says, okay, I know how you feel. Let's think about this. Is that, is that really who, who you are, who that, that is? And then, you know, gradually with love. And let's remember, people always get mentally unwell because of love. I don't mean romantic relationships, but all mental unwellness stems somewhere.

• 1:23:20Speaker 00

  If you, if you scroll back, there's always a deficit of love, always. There's always an experience of cruelty in some way that breaks the mind. And when people get well, there is also always an experience of love that heals. And it could be love, you know, not about romantic love, love from a friend, love from a therapist, love from professionals. But it's essentially an act of love, an act of love saves us, redeems us.

• 1:23:47Steven Bartlett?

  So the problem and often the antidote is love, or at least the cause and the antidote is often love.

• 1:23:53Speaker 00

  Yes, imaginatively understood, not merely romantic love, in its broader sense. And, you know, because mental breakdown is often emerges from a buildup of cruelty, an unbearable cruelty, which makes life unbearable for the person. And they then have to, you know, project it outwards. I mean, when illness becomes very severe and you have a psychosis, you know, what can happen is that people become obsessed with the idea that everyone is against them. The CIA is against them, other people are plotting against them. Really, what this is an outgrowth of is an unbearable inner negativity that hasn't found any way of being handled.

• 1:24:31Steven Bartlett?

  You use the word resilience in this book, and I think the word resilience is often misunderstood because we think of resilience as like toughen up and, you know, take it. What is your definition of resilience and why is that such a prominent word in this book?

• 1:24:44Speaker 00

  Look, I think true resilience should be compatible with things that don't look resilient at all, things that look very desperate, very humble, very broken indeed. So, um, yes, I mean, I, like you, am suspicious of the use of that word resilience as really just meaning a kind of stoic, bouncing back from all problems immediately. I think it means a generous understanding of how much madness has a legitimate claim on even a healthy life. Towards the end of the book, I have a little thing I riff on about the seasons. Some of it is understanding that this is normal. This is part of the natural cycle, not railing against it. Some of what-

• 1:25:29Steven Bartlett?

  What does that help, understanding that it's normal?

• 1:25:31Speaker 00

  Well, sometimes when people have mental troubles, they will have ups and downs, right? And sometimes people can box themselves in and they'll go, I suffered, now I'm better again. You know, I'm better. And the advice is always, mm, careful, careful. That belief that you're better, the rigid belief, the past is behind me, the darkness is behind me, can itself start to seek- That can itself start to seem like a problem because it means that you'll be intolerant towards any regression. And regression belongs to progress, just like dark days belong to good seasons. You know, we need some of that. And, and the natural world has a wonderful way, if we're attuned to it, of telling us about cycles, really what we're talking about cyclical ity. Darkness is followed by light.

• 1:26:14Speaker 00

  Autumn is followed by, winter is followed by spring. The mind has its own seasons and the more we can accept the legitimacy of those seasons, the less we'll rail against some of the necessary sliding into darkness, which for many of us is simply going to be unavoidable.

• 1:26:30Steven Bartlett?

  If someone chooses to pick up this book and they get to the final page, what do you hope they'd learnt or taken away from them by getting to the end of this book?

• 1:26:41Speaker 00

  Um, real sympathy for the complexity of their minds, a real understanding that it's not easy being human, that there is nothing indulgent about, you know, working on oneself, as you put it, that, that this, this is a boring but alt very necessary task. Some tools in there about how to do it, from the very practical to the more theoretical. There's a practical book about how you can work on the most broken bits of yourself and find a kind of equilibrium. But it's also very deliberately a warm book. It's a book of comfort. And I think that's something that we often miss. We can get, we can get a little too intellectual in this topic, thinking that people who are

• 1:27:25Speaker 00

  in trouble mentally and just psychologically, that all they need is some ideas, you know, get some ideas. And yeah, sure, we need ideas, but you know what we also need is warmth, kindness, friendship in a way. Now you could say, well, how could a book be a friend? Well, you know, many of my best friends are books, let me tell you. And I think it's absolutely in the remit of, of a book to act as a friend and to say to you very simply, you are not alone.

• 1:27:57Steven Bartlett?

  You said earlier that a good conversationalist, a good friend, a good romantic partner is someone that makes you feel heard and understood. And I think that's exactly what you achieve in this book. It is a very difficult thing to do because books can often feel quite exclusive, especially when the author is as smart as you are. But this book does a wonderful job of, first and foremost, Making you realise that the thing you're going through in the way that you are isn't evidence of your inadequacy, it's actually evidence that you are perfectly human and that you are like everybody else. And through that lens, you can offer support and some very practical tips about how to, you know, endure or rise, rise from the situation

• 1:28:40Steven Bartlett?

  that we all find ourselves in, in the different seasons of life that you describe. And that's why it's such an important book. And that's why it's done so tremendously well. And it's been passed around by so many people. Alan, thank you so much for, for your time today. And thank you for all your wisdom. You're a remarkable talker. I was learning, I was watching you and I was just thinking, fucking hell, you know, you've got a wonderful way to hold people with the way that you articulate yourself. That is so unbelievably powerful. And speaking and the art of speaking is such a important, incredible talent to have. And you have that in such a wondrous way. It's so soothing and engaging and intelligent. And there's a real poetry to the way that you frame things, which I think is just a superpower that I would love to have more of.

• 1:29:24Speaker 00

  You do, Stephen.

• 1:29:25Steven Bartlett?

  No, but not, not like you have it. So it was wonderful just to learn from the way that you speak. We have, we have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest leaves a question for the next guest, not knowing who they're leaving it for. And the question that's been left for you is.

• 1:29:40Steven Bartlett?

  Ah, interesting. What was the last thought to keep you awake at night?

• 1:29:47Speaker 00

  Hmm. The last thought to keep me awake at night? Well, last night I was quite worried about coming here. So I was, I was kept up. But, you know, I'm often kept up. I do.

• 1:30:03Steven Bartlett?

  Why?

• 1:30:03Speaker 00

  I do, I do sleep in quite a fragile way. And I think that one of the ways of thinking about is that there are thoughts that happen in the middle of the night that can't happen at any other time. That there are actually some quite important thoughts, often there to do with. Things that you didn't even know you were concerned about, but the night teaches you, there is the school of night, you know, and, and, and I used to be very, very impatient, insomniac. So I used to wake up and think, oh my goodness, I can't believe that I'm still awake, how annoying, etc. Now I'm thinking, maybe there's something to learn here, maybe my mind's trying to teach me something. And it might not be anything sort of totally earth shattering, it might not sound completely earth shattering, but it might just be something, it might just be like, oh, I really love this thing, or I think I should really steer

• 1:30:47Speaker 00

  away from that, or this is really beautiful, or whatever it is, something, a, a kind of acknowledgement of the night. And so I'm, I've become a better, not a better sleeper, but something perhaps even more important, a better insomniac.

• 1:31:01Steven Bartlett?

  Why are you nervous staying up about coming here? We're all friendly people.

• 1:31:07Speaker 00

  I know you are. I think, you know, we've spoken a lot about expectation, haven't we? And, you know, if, if your podcast had one listener, and we were just going down to the pub, that'd be so lovely. If you called me up and said, Alan, we're cancelling the show, but we're just going to go to the pub, I would have slept like a baby.

• 1:31:25Steven Bartlett?

  Well, you've certainly exceeded all my expectations, and it's a real honour and a privilege that you chose to come. So thank you so much for that. And your wisdom, I'm sure, has impacted countless people, not just for the last couple of decades, but even in this conversation that I guess you'll never get to see. So on behalf of them, thank you so much.

• 1:31:40Speaker 00

  Thanks, Stephen.

• 1:31:43Steven Bartlett?

  Do you need a podcast to listen to next? We've discovered that people who liked this episode also tend to absolutely love another recent episode we've done. So I've linked that episode in the description below. I know you'll enjoy it.