On Negativity, Ambition, and Building a Serious Business (Tory Burch)

Tory Burch started her company in 2004 with a single store on Elizabeth Street in New York City, a friends and family round of funding, and a belief that purpose and business belong in the same sentence. Twenty two years later, she has 400 stores in 70 countries. And she still hasn't had lunch. In this conversation, Tory sits down with Emma to talk about what it really took to build one of the most recognizable names in American fashion — navigating criticism, surviving a lawsuit that threatened everything she'd built, and rediscovering the creative spirit that reinvigorated the brand. Tory shares: Why ambition is still a complicated word for women and why she refuses to shy away from it How she maintained ownership and control of her company through a very public divorce and lawsuit What she learned about scaling a brand without losing its identity How stepping back from the CEO role unlocked her most creative chapter yet What would you build if you stopped letting other people define your ambition? Drop it in the comments — we're reading. And subscribe to Aspire with Emma Grede so you don't miss what's next.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:09Emma Grede?

  So today I'm speaking to Tori Birch, one of the founders that I admire the most. Tori Birch has built an incredible American luxury brand worth billions of dollars. What we're going to talk about today is how she built a billion-dollar brand from her apartment in New York, why ambition is still a dirty word for women, and why she decided to step down as CEO of her own company when so few women get to occupy that space. You will not want to miss this episode. And whatever you do, don't forget to like and subscribe.

• 0:47Emma Grede?

  Tori Birch, welcome to Aspire.

• 0:49Speaker 01

  Oh, I'm so happy to be here. Thank you.

• 0:51Emma Grede?

  When I think about you and what you've done, you've built one of America's most iconic fashion brands, which is so incredible. We're talking billions of dollars in sales, 400 stores around the world, which is so incredible. A true global brand. And I've been reading and researching so much about you. And I really want to take people back to the beginning and to understand exactly where you were when you decided to go and do that friends and family round, take a bet on yourself. It takes such an enormous amount of ambition. Where were you and why did you have such certainty that you could actually do this?

• 1:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, let's start with I had a career that I loved. And I was working for LVMH, working for Loewe. And I got pregnant with my third son. So I had three boys under the age of four. And so I was traveling to Paris and Spain and realized that I wouldn't be able to be a great mom. So I had to make one of those decisions that a lot of women have to. And it was really choosing being a mom over a career. And that was a really hard choice. I mean, it wasn't hard to choose being a great mom, but it was hard to give up a career that I loved. And so it was during the time that I was a stay-at-home mom that I worked on this concept because I knew I wanted to go back to work. I just didn't know what that work would be.

• 2:10Speaker 01

  In tandem, I was working on a school, starting a school, and I was also working on starting a company. And it was about reviving a company from the sixties and seventies that my mom used to wear. It was called Jax.

• 2:22Emma Grede?

  Really?

• 2:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:23Emma Grede?

  That's what you were going to do?

• 2:24Speaker 01

  I was going to do it. I worked on it for months and decided finally that the school would go off to the side. I would try to start this company. And there was this great entrepreneur named Sally Hansen. And she had hired Rudy Gernreich, who was the designer at the time. They started this company called Jax. And the best way to describe it is like, it was great pieces that were impossible to find.

• 2:45Emma Grede?

  Right.

• 2:45Speaker 01

  Audrey Hepburn wore it, Jackie O, all these incredibly stylish people.

• 2:50Emma Grede?

  What happened to Jax?

• 2:50Speaker 01

  And so it went out of business. But I had a lot of the clothes because my mother wore it. And so I did all of this research. I spent months on it. And I got in touch with this incredible woman named Corby, who used to run their New York showroom. She ended up getting me in touch with Sally Hansen. And after months of work and a giant presentation, I got her on the phone.

• 3:11Emma Grede?

  Are we talking Sally Hansen like?

• 3:12Speaker 01

  Hard as nails.

• 3:13Emma Grede?

  Yeah. Sally Hansen?

• 3:15Speaker 01

  Sally Hansen. She's an incredible entrepreneur. And so I called her. I got every bit of courage up to give her a call. And 30 seconds later, I realized it was a hard no.

• 3:24Emma Grede?

  Really?

• 3:24Speaker 01

  And so that's when I was like.

• 3:26Emma Grede?

  How'd you take that?

• 3:26Speaker 01

  I was just blown away because I, no didn't occur to me. And so I thought it was going to be a given that it would be called Jax. And it was, so I had to start over.

• 3:36Emma Grede?

  Did you immediately decide, okay, I'm gonna go and do my own thing? Like, how long did it take you? Because when you've got a vision for something, and then you get that type of knockback, sometimes that can be hard to take. Like, what did you do?

• 3:47Speaker 01

  I went and I started, I started to think about branding. And then I, then I hired a branding company. And I started to think about an interior designer called David Hicks. That was a big inspiration. My parents had books on him. My mother loved his work. And I, I was like, okay, if I'm going to do a company, I didn't want it to be my name. I was trying to get so many different names, none of which I could get. I launched with a terrible name and also a logo. And it was because I couldn't get Jax. And that was why, that was the start of me doing my own thing.

• 4:20Emma Grede?

  Are you absolutely kidding?

• 4:21Speaker 01

  So it was totally unintentional. It was not my plan.

• 4:24Emma Grede?

  That is so crazy. So how did it turn into Tory Burch, your name, and this kind of initial friends and family round that you went out on?

• 4:33Speaker 01

  So that takes a little bit of a while. I started it with my ex-husband, who had a history of a company called Eagle's Eye. So he did the production in Hong Kong and I, so he had that knowledge. So we started this company. I had this logo. People had so many different opinions. I had this idea. It was contrary to everything that people had told me to do. So it was a direct to consumer concept. It was an e-commerce site.

• 4:59Emma Grede?

  Direct to consumer. Which year was this now?

• 5:01Speaker 01

  It was 2004. So I was planning in 2003, but no one was selling online. So people told me no one would ever buy online. So I launched with an out of the way store down on Elizabeth Street and an e-commerce site. And the very first day, we realized we were on to something.

• 5:18Emma Grede?

  What was it that gave you that idea?

• 5:19Speaker 01

  You know, it was just, first of all, the work leading up to that was excruciating. It was like flying back and forth to Asia, managing three boys, working out of my apartment. So there are all these things that went into it. The opening day, it was, I had grown up in fashion and had this great career. So it was press, it was friends, family. And we opened 10:00 in the morning till 6:00 at night. And it was almost as if it was building throughout the day. People were hearing about it and then calming down. It was during Fashion Week. Never could I have imagined or planned. It just was one of these things that just sort of started to take shape. And we realized we basically sold through our inventory.

• 5:57Emma Grede?

  What were you imagining at that point in time? Like, did you have a vision that it could be anything like it is today?

• 6:05Speaker 01

  Well, I had, I hear myself and some of the things I said. And I, at the time, in retrospect, had no idea what I was talking about. I said, I wanted to build a global lifestyle brand so I could start a foundation. That was my, that was my.

• 6:19Emma Grede?

  I heard people told you not to say that.

• 6:21Speaker 01

  Everyone told me not to say it.

• 6:22Emma Grede?

  They're like, just leave the foundation part out.

• 6:24Speaker 01

  They patted me like, oh, that's charity work. And they said that is just the worst idea. But I had. This like vision and I don't know exactly how I got to this point, but I knew that I I had this feeling that purpose and business went hand in hand. And if you could, doing good is good for business. And that was sort of my theory.

• 6:43Emma Grede?

  Yeah, I mean, that was really early on. And I remember when we started Good American, we had the same, I remember looking at your brand and saying to our board at that point, I was like, well, Tori's doing it. Like, and you were the only ones that were doing it and doing it successfully. They were like, park it for now.

• 7:03Speaker 01

  You know who else is Toms? I was kind of, I thought that was kind of interesting.

• 7:07Emma Grede?

  Although it was just, yeah, because it was like a single, you know, it was like just this one shoe. It felt different. But we were really benchmarking. I remember in the beginning going like, there is so, like Tori is doing this and she seems to be like making a business out of it.

• 7:21Speaker 01

  Doing my best, I'm not sure.

• 7:22Emma Grede?

  You said early on that you didn't feel like a designer. How long did it take you to kind of own that part of your?

• 7:28Speaker 01

  I would say, you know, a long time. I I have to say, I didn't have, I didn't go to business school. I didn't go to design school. So for me to consider myself a designer, just because I started a company, it was a stretch in my own imagination. I didn't feel like it. I didn't feel it internally. So it was kind of, you you mentioned in one of your notes, imposter syndrome. I don't know that I had that, but I didn't feel that I had earned it. And I I felt like I had to get the knowledge. And throughout the years, I would say probably 10 years until I felt I had the technical skill set where I really felt like I was a competent designer.

• 8:05Emma Grede?

  You started the company with your husband.

• 8:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:08Emma Grede?

  And that's no longer the arrangement that you have now. So I'm interested to understand what was kind of happening behind the scenes there.

• 8:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, it was rough. I had this idea. It was us putting a lot of money into it from our personal funds that was not a tremendous amount, but for us at the time it was. And then going to 120 friends and family. And I was first of all terrified about taking people's money. That was one of the things that kept me up every night. And I just said to them, invest what you can lose, because I was Really worried that I'm starting, doing a startup.

• 8:42Emma Grede?

  That was your pitch, Tori.

• 8:43Speaker 01

  That was my pitch.

• 8:44Emma Grede?

  Invest where you're happy to lose.

• 8:45Speaker 01

  This is what I'm going to do, but don't put in money that you don't have to lose because it's a risk. And I'm a careful risk taker, but I am a risk taker. And so he never worked with me in the office, but he helped me set the whole company up. But what we realized, or what I realized very early on is fundamentally, we're incredibly different. The way we we saw building a brand. And I can say that now because, you know, we're great friends now, but it was incredibly rough for a long time. I mean, going through, well, two things, a very public divorce and having six kids that I love dearly and wanted to protect and and being a very private person. But then also a very public lawsuit where he decided to build a brand that looked like a cheap version of our brand.

• 9:30Emma Grede?

  I mean, I will tell you, I remember when that happened.

• 9:34Speaker 01

  It was shocking.

• 9:35Emma Grede?

  It was shocking, but it was like the talk of the town. Like it was a thing. And I remember even that was like in the early days when I'd really started to understand investing. And I knew people around me that had kind of been like, well, here's the next Tory Burch. And I was like, hang about one second.

• 9:51Speaker 01

  I mean, it was bad. He would say things in a board meeting like, you're a PR girl. There's, it was really bad. And so I can laugh with him about it now because he told me it was a 10 year misunderstanding. And so we've moved on.

• 10:03Emma Grede?

  Very eloquent way to put it.

• 10:05Speaker 01

  I've always, I've always wanted to get along with him. He's the father of my, and he's great and I adore him now. But what he put me through is just hard to believe.

• 10:14Emma Grede?

  How did you have the confidence and I guess the wherewithal to understand how you were going to get yourself out of that situation? Because right now it kind of feels like you're sitting on top of the world. But I imagine at that time, it's very difficult when somebody literally sets up what was perceived outwardly to be your competition. You obviously have a family together and so the dynamics are really difficult. So as a business person, how did you even, how did you deal with all of that?

• 10:40Speaker 01

  I mean, I feel like work was a bit of a refuge and a safety. It was for me, I've always wanted to think about culture and an environment for women. And I, in a way, built that. For myself and it was a place where I could go and feel safe. And not that it was unsafe being with him, but it was a terrible time. And so I think that I had this relentless drive. I'm not sure exactly where that came from, or I think I might. I've always in, you know, thinking a lot about our conversation. I thought a lot about ambition and I've always been ambitious, even though I didn't realize that's what I was. Like even from working at Benetton in high school or starting a sorority at Penn or whatever it was.

• 11:20Speaker 01

  I didn't realize that it was a negative to be that way until this article in the New York Times was written on me. And I shied away from that word.

• 11:28Emma Grede?

  So you just speak a little bit for anyone who hasn't seen that article. Will you talk about that?

• 11:33Speaker 01

  So there was an article, the first year of our business and it said, don't call her a socialite. I recently reread it. The journalist asked me if I was ambitious and at the time it was a very derogatory expression for women. And so I clearly shied away from the word in the article. Jane Rosenthal called me up and she said, great article. Don't you ever shy away from your ambition? And it was something that was like a light switch for me. It was immediate. I realized she was absolutely right. I was mad at myself because I prided myself on thinking I could do anything a man could do. I never, it never occurred to me that I shouldn't be proud of being ambitious.

• 12:14Speaker 01

  So it became sort of something I wanted to really clear up for me and for women.

• 12:20Emma Grede?

  I love that and clear it up you did because I think it's really interesting. Having just come out of this process of, of writing this book and now releasing the book. Ambition is such a tricky subject for so many women and the negative connotations, even now, 20 years later are still there. When we talk about a man's ambition, we conjure up all of these images of somebody great and exciting. And as soon as we say she's ambitious, we're maybe thinking about a little bit of a bitch somehow.

• 12:48Speaker 01

  She's rough, she's a bitch, she's like.

• 12:50Emma Grede?

  All of those things.

• 12:50Speaker 01

  Distasteful.

• 12:51Emma Grede?

  How much do you think has changed in that time?

• 12:53Speaker 01

  I think it hasn't changed enough. And, and if I'm really analyzing it, I think if you ask my three boys. They think it's changed, which is interesting, but

• 13:02Emma Grede?

  I love that. I'll take it.

• 13:04Speaker 01

  And that's a bit of hope, I think. It's also the pressure you put on yourself. And we as women put on ourselves and believe in these negative stereotypes. And that's something that we need to stop and collectively and support each other. But we need men to support us, too.

• 13:18Emma Grede?

  We need all the things.

• 13:20Speaker 01

  I don't want to have the conversation with just women because we'll get nowhere.

• 13:23Emma Grede?

  Well, I think that's a really, really fair point. I remember years ago when Sheryl Sandberg wrote Lean In, I went out at the time I ran an agency. And I went out and bought it for every woman in my organization, read the first three chapters and went back out and bought it for every man.

• 13:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's great.

• 13:40Emma Grede?

  When I think about my own book, I'm like, this needs to be something that men read and something that women also read. I don't want it to go one way because as you quite rightly say, we need men. We need men in so many different ways in business.

• 13:52Speaker 01

  Or else we'll be talking to ourselves for the rest of time and making zero progress.

• 13:57Emma Grede?

  So I really wanted to talk to you. You're such an expert in what it actually takes to create a brand and build a business. So let's go back to those early days when you went and did that friends and family round. You're calling 120 people to actually ask them to invest. What like, what were you saying? What were you thinking? What were you pitching?

• 14:17Speaker 01

  I mean, I had this gall in a way and vision and I was determined. I think even our biggest investor who told me never to say purpose in business. I called him maybe three years ago and I said, it's so funny you said that. I still remember that expression you said to me and I just came from a conference that doing good is good for business. And he's like, okay, what do you want? And I said, a check for the foundation naturally. I mean, there are so many things that happen constantly of, you know, things that you were being put in your place or things that you shouldn't say quite like that or you should think this way. I think it was a lot of noise to me. That's one thing I learned from my parents is that negativity is noise.

• 15:01Speaker 01

  And so I learned to tune things out and I learned to be a good listener, take it in, but not necessarily take it to heart.

• 15:09Emma Grede?

  And not take it personally?

• 15:10Speaker 01

  More often than not, not take it personally. Of course, sometimes it gets personal. And I try to not be emotional, particularly in a board meeting. I've learned that lesson. It's much more effective.

• 15:23Emma Grede?

  It's much more effective.

• 15:24Speaker 01

  I just want to be more effective.

• 15:26Emma Grede?

  I can't say that I haven't cried outside many a board meeting.

• 15:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, but I had to learn that. I mean, you can imagine what I went through. I remember one of our partners told my ex-husband to leave it at the door.

• 15:36Emma Grede?

  Wow.

• 15:37Speaker 01

  I really liked that.

• 15:38Emma Grede?

  Wow, that's just incredible.

• 15:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, but it was hard, the beginning, you know. Some people would look at me and say, do you go to the office? I haven't had lunch in 21 years. I can't even imagine. I work as hard, if not harder than anyone, and it's been this incredible journey. It's work that I love, so it doesn't feel like work. But it's shocking sometimes to think people question that and think that it just happened out of thin air.

• 16:03Emma Grede?

  I love that they asked you that because I think I'm asked on average once a day, including today. Do you actually work here? And I'm like, five days a week.

• 16:12Speaker 01

  But that's something they would never say to a man.

• 16:14Emma Grede?

  Ever.

• 16:15Speaker 01

  So.

• 16:15Emma Grede?

  Ever.

• 16:16Speaker 01

  That's something.

• 16:16Emma Grede?

  Which is, you know, and I don't want to sound whiny, but I think that the, you know, I'm looking, thinking about an article that came out yesterday, which was the first article about my book. And the headline was a headline that would never be written about a man, about how long I choose to spend with my children every day. And I just thought, wow.

• 16:34Speaker 01

  That's really, I haven't seen that headline.

• 16:35Emma Grede?

  A very, very reputable newspaper, I will tell you, not trash, you know, magazine stuff. And it's interesting to me. That's why it bothers me.

• 16:44Speaker 01

  I'm curious if they did. Did they list your age?

• 16:47Emma Grede?

  Absolutely.

• 16:48Speaker 01

  Because they never do that with men.

• 16:49Emma Grede?

  That's.

• 16:51Speaker 01

  That's something I want to clear up as well.

• 16:53Emma Grede?

  That's crazy.

• 16:53Speaker 01

  It's crazy. Every article that's ever been written about me lists my age. And they have, I've never seen an article on a man with that where they list their age. Have you?

• 17:04Emma Grede?

  I'm really thinking about it now. They don't list men's ages.

• 17:08Speaker 01

  But how dare they say that to you?

• 17:09Emma Grede?

  Yeah, I know. I kind of shrugged it off because the.

• 17:12Speaker 01

  You should.

• 17:12Emma Grede?

  It was one of those moments where the internet did what the internet does best. And every single woman was in the comments.

• 17:17Speaker 01

  I will comment myself.

• 17:19Emma Grede?

  What is this all about?

• 17:20Speaker 01

  That's crazy.

• 17:21Emma Grede?

  What is this all about? I want to go back and talk to you about this, you know, because you were starting in e-commerce when no one, especially in the luxury space, was really in it. What was it that you saw that? Perhaps other brands missed.

• 17:32Speaker 01

  I mean, for me, it was a scrappy way of reaching our customer. And so I had to be resourceful because we didn't have big budgets. We didn't have a lot of money. We started on a little shop on Elizabeth Street because the rent was so cheap. There was nothing there. And that's why I used social media and PR to build the company. We never did traditional advertising because we didn't have the budget. So we had to be resourceful, as I said.

• 17:55Emma Grede?

  I'm interested in understanding like what you chose in terms of categories and expansion. Like, who gave you that blueprint?

• 18:02Speaker 01

  Well, no one did. In fact, from day one, I launched with 10 categories and I was told not to do that. So and just the ideas, I mentioned direct to consumer. But for me, it was lifestyle. I think everything from a strategic standpoint that I started with is still relevant today. And that's exciting because we launched with 10 categories. So then we sort of built them through time. But I was early adopters of technology. It was something I'm still obsessed with. I think it's so, I mean, when you look at what's happening now, it's kind of hard to decide what to do and what to jump on to. Back then, when you think you had an e-commerce site, which was revolutionary. So that was one thing. Instagram, then you had Twitter.

• 18:44Speaker 01

  But I was on it and I was really interested in thinking, how do you use this to connect with people?

• 18:50Emma Grede?

  So tell me a little bit about the catalyst for the brand really taking off. Because I think about two things. I think about this big Oprah moment. And then I think about the shoe and you could not walk down.

• 19:02Speaker 01

  My mother.

• 19:03Emma Grede?

  The shoe, your mother, the Reba. But you couldn't walk down the street without seeing that bloody flat absolutely everywhere. And I remember like I would go to Selfridges and there would just be a queue of women waiting for this shoe in any color that they could possibly get their hands on, which is so crazy to think about.

• 19:20Speaker 01

  It's so crazy. I mean, listen, Oprah was the first year of business and Adam Glassman was a friend and we worked together. And he gave Oprah some clothes for Christmas and they were doing a show on the next big thing. And when they first called me, I thought it was a joke. I have three brothers. We are constantly playing practical jokes. I'm like, oh, okay, playing along with it. So I realized it was real that they wanted me to come to Chicago and be on the show and have a fashion show. And so I'll never forget it because when I saw Oprah, she's like, well, you've been on TV before. I'm like, no.

• 19:52Emma Grede?

  Sorry.

• 19:53Speaker 01

  She said, don't worry. It's only eight million, no, 30 million viewers. And so what was great is I had an e-commerce site and they did explain how we had to back it up. And it didn't crash. We had eight million hits the next day and the next following week. And so we were prepared.

• 20:09Emma Grede?

  That was year one.

• 20:10Speaker 01

  Year one.

• 20:10Emma Grede?

  The company. So tell me, so how did things then scale? Like, what did it actually look like for the business?

• 20:15Speaker 01

  So we, I had a plan of, I think, three stores in the first five years. It became seven. And then it just went on from there. But I was traveling nonstop. I had these three babies, three boys growing. And trying to be a CEO and creative and manage both.

• 20:35Emma Grede?

  How did you do it? How did you take your family and what was going on in your personal life? And this incredible brand that was on such a crazy trajectory, how did you do it?

• 20:46Speaker 01

  You know, I think I am very good at compartmentalizing and I also have this drive. I think it's almost the opposite of my father. He never had a proper job. He was taught that he didn't have to work. And so my brothers and I all saw that and we went the opposite way. And it gave me more drive. But at the same time, we saw money come and go. And I will never forget the conversations that I had with my mother saying, you always need to be financially independent. And that's something that she raised me with since I was a little girl. I remember it was a conversation when she was telling me she got a credit card in her name for the first time, which is 1972 or three, which is shocking.

• 21:29Speaker 01

  And she was saying how she never wanted to rely on her husband, a boyfriend, anyone to be financially secure. And so that is something I was raised with. And I think that is where my drive comes from.

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• 23:03Speaker 03

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• 23:53Emma Grede?

  Did you recognize early on that you were capable of really running a global business? Was there doubt? Was there any imposter syndrome?

• 24:02Speaker 01

  In a startup, as you know, something happens every day. It's almost grace under pressure. And the more frenetic things get, I get more focused. And that's something I get from my father. My mom is a bit different.

• 24:15Emma Grede?

  You've also said that you were a real risk taker. And I love, I want to dig into the risk thing a little bit more because that's something that I think so many women struggle with, like actually taking big risks. Because if you don't, I mean, you would never have a brand like you have today.

• 24:30Speaker 01

  No, you're right. And I inherently am a risk taker. And even a personal, I used to go bungee jumping. I used to do all these crazy sporty things that were probably not safe. But I have an older brother who helped me build the brand. And he was always dialing me back. So I'm the one who is always pushing and then he would be pulling. And so we had this tension. And I think that was very important. And he's still with me today.

• 24:57Emma Grede?

  Is he still involved today?

• 24:58Speaker 01

  Yes, I could never have done this company without him, Robert. And he really helped me. He came after the company was two years old. He sold his company. I convinced him to come on board. And he's really helped me build it.

• 25:10Emma Grede?

  When you look back, what do you think have been some of your personal biggest wins?

• 25:15Speaker 01

  The foundation has to be a win. But I think the company, I look at it as a second family. Our employees are, I'm great at picking great talent and great people. And surrounding myself with incredible people. So that's a win for me.

• 25:29Emma Grede?

  Have you always been good at that?

• 25:30Speaker 01

  I think I am good at that. And I think I've learned when I'm not good at it to react quicker. I haven't always done it quick enough. And I think, you know, I definitely try things. And I've learned how to hire better and take my time more and not hire quickly. I think I never try to hire when I'm desperate for a role. That's a piece of advice I give to entrepreneurs. Like, take your time and get to know someone and get a lot of references.

• 25:59Emma Grede?

  That's great advice. You really need a lot of references. It's amazing how many people don't reference.

• 26:03Speaker 01

  Well, that or believe in a culture. You know, our culture is really unique for our company. And that's not a culture that everyone fits into.

• 26:11Emma Grede?

  And what is that culture?

• 26:13Speaker 01

  Well, it's one that is, I want a safe environment for people. I want people to be treated beautifully. I expect great work, but I want a great place to work.

• 26:23Emma Grede?

  You have 5,000 employees, I think.

• 26:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:26Emma Grede?

  Nuts to even think about. So what are you like as a leader? And how much have you learned and have to change and shift and adapt?

• 26:34Speaker 01

  I mean, I've learned everything, but I will say that one thing I don't do is I don't micromanage people. And I think I let them shine. And that's something I love to do. And it makes people feel great, but it's because it's real. And then you get their best work. So I, I think I'm patient, not always. I'm definitely a perfectionist. It's not always easy, but it's always coming from a good place and out of respect.

• 26:58Emma Grede?

  Leadership is something that no one teaches it to you.

• 27:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:02Emma Grede?

  You have to find your way.

• 27:04Speaker 01

  How are you as a leader?

• 27:06Emma Grede?

  I think a little bit similar to what you're saying. I have extremely high expectations, but both on myself and on everyone else.

• 27:14Speaker 01

  But you'll do everything you're asking someone else to do.

• 27:16Emma Grede?

  I'll do absolutely everything. And I think that there's a respect level because I've come up through the ranks. It's like I've done all the jobs. I understand exactly what I'm asking somebody for. So there's not that.

• 27:27Speaker 01

  But I don't know about you, but I can work around the clock and you have to be careful of that.

• 27:32Emma Grede?

  I was, that's literally, you took the words out of my mouth. I think that what I've had to be really careful of is expecting the same energy level.

• 27:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:39Emma Grede?

  That I have. And of course, as a founder, as the entrepreneur, as the name on the door, as you are, there is an expectation that you have that not everybody else has to share. But I think that that was harder for me to understand maybe in the early days.

• 27:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, it is hard and you, you are working. It doesn't feel like work for you, but that's not always the case for people. They have a family, they have commitments and that's something you have to remember.

• 28:02Emma Grede?

  Yeah, and you have to balance that a little bit. You said that women have to make decisions that men simply don't. What do you mean by that?

• 28:09Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, women have expectations, whether they put it on themself or societal. And I think whether it's being the caretaker, taking care of the children, or their parents. And we certainly see that with COVID and our entrepreneurs. Women are the first to give up a career. When I talk about ambition with women, I remember phrasing it, saying, whatever ambition means to you, whether it's being a stay-at-home mom or a CEO, it's really about living on your own terms. And that's something that's really important, and that's how I look at being ambitious. But women just are held to different standards, and that's something that is not changing.

• 28:47Emma Grede?

  Yeah.

• 28:47Speaker 01

  It has to change.

• 28:48Emma Grede?

  I couldn't agree with you more. I mean, I love that you say, whatever ambition means to you. The reason I called my book Start With Yourself was for exactly that reason, because you have to start with your ambition, your vision, how you want to live, what type of woman you want to be. And that's very different for different people. But I do think that we're still in a place and a space for so many women where there are a series of thoughts or ideas that exist in the culture that do hold women back, that do make women have to keep themselves small.

• 29:21Speaker 01

  And even holding yourself back, right?

• 29:23Emma Grede?

  And that's part of it. And I really want to talk more openly about that, because I do think that, you know, sometimes maybe the reluctance to talk about money or the reluctance to come across as too ambitious or the reluctance to, you know, maybe exhibit some type of behavior that's not deemed so eloquent and elegant can be holding women back somewhat. What advice would you give to a woman who's been labeled as too ambitious?

• 29:51Speaker 01

  Well, I would say, tune it out. That negativity is noise. And I'm not sure what that means. You know, I think that it's something that should be celebrated, and it shouldn't be around gender. Ambition should be a personal thing, and people should think about what ambition means to them. But it's not something to have a negative connotation around women. And that's something that has to be addressed. And I think it's a conversation that just needs to continue. I started twenty years ago. There weren't a lot of role models for women.

• 30:22Emma Grede?

  No, there really weren't, which is one of the main reasons I love to do this show because I think the more we see examples like you in the culture, the more we can understand it and we can see ourselves in it and we can envisage it. But not if we don't have the conversation. I'm interested how motherhood like shaped your approach to business and to leadership. I understand that there were like probably trade offs that you had to make, but what did that really look like in practice?

• 30:46Speaker 01

  I mean, one thing I would never trade off was being a good mom. And that was something I never thought I could start a business if that were to have to happen.

• 30:54Emma Grede?

  But what does that look like to you, Tori? Because I feel like even that in of itself, like what it means to be a good mom, it's different for everybody. What was it for you and what did you need to do?

• 31:04Speaker 01

  That I, well, first of all, I was, you know, my husband was there, but not, you know, when we got divorced, I was raising my kids a lot on my own. So it was being at the doctor, going to a lacrosse game. It was also starting a company that allowed women to be able to do that and not penalize them for that. And so I thought, how do you build a culture around flexibility?

• 31:25Emma Grede?

  How have you been able to do that?

• 31:27Speaker 01

  I have done it and I, what I say is that as long as it gets done, I'm not really clocking how it gets done.

• 31:33Emma Grede?

  Same. I think the same. And I think you create those conditions so much yourself. Like I leave the office every day at five. That's because I like to go home and I like to do bath and bedtime and story, but it creates the conditions for everybody else to leave at five.

• 31:46Speaker 01

  And I used to do that, maybe not at five, but I would be a stickler for being at home. I would say if anything suffered, it was my social life, but I

• 31:54Emma Grede?

  That's always what gives.

• 31:55Speaker 01

  That was fine with me. But I will say like being a mom is the joy of my life. And I, I often say I'm a survivor of raising three boys. Because it's hard. It's not always easy. And they look at me now, they're in their twenties. And they're, they apologize for what they put me through. I mean, three boys in New York City, you can imagine.

• 32:13Emma Grede?

  Oh, no, I can't.

• 32:13Speaker 01

  And they're three, three little like torturers. They used to bully me. And so, but I'm tough.

• 32:18Emma Grede?

  Because you're so dinky and they're all.

• 32:19Speaker 01

  They're giants, but I'm very tough. So I was a tough mom. And I think, yes, very tough. And I think.

• 32:25Emma Grede?

  And when you say like a tough mom, like you had to have rules and a schedule, like what do you mean?

• 32:29Speaker 01

  I had rules. I, you know, was on them. I was like a investigator. So.

• 32:36Emma Grede?

  Just to keep everybody in check.

• 32:37Speaker 01

  Everybody in check.

• 32:38Emma Grede?

  Keep everybody in check. Do you feel like there were sacrifices that you made because of the children in like in the business?

• 32:45Speaker 01

  You know, I I think I managed and I'm not sure if I feel that it was a sacrifice. I think I managed around. I guess the only thing that was sacrificed is my sleep. I still don't sleep. I would, you know, get the kids handled and put to bed and then start work. But it was enjoyable. I'm not complaining. But at the same time, I will say I can turn it off very easily, too.

• 33:08Emma Grede?

  You can.

• 33:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, so I have a lot of outside passions that I love.

• 33:12Emma Grede?

  When you speak to women that are, you know, perhaps debating starting something or leaving a job, having a family, when to do it, like, what is the advice that you give?

• 33:22Speaker 01

  I tell them that they have to do what's right for them. And starting a family is something that a lot of women feel the need to do. And so for me, like, I I don't want women to have to make that choice of leaving a job because of that. So that's something that I question whether they're at the right working environment if they feel that they have to do that. That's a big conversation we have, is are you working in the right place? Is that something, are you gonna be, feel like you're gonna be left behind? A lot of attorneys, a lot of bankers, they feel like if they have a child, it's over for them from scaling.

• 34:00Emma Grede?

  Yeah, yeah, I I see that so much. Do you think that the idea of what it means to be a mother or a parent has changed in like the last 20 years? Like, when you see social media and you think about what it means to be a mother right now, do you see big differences at all?

• 34:17Speaker 01

  I think people are deciding whether they want to have children in a different way. And I I see a lot of people choosing not to as well. They don't feel like they can do that.

• 34:28Emma Grede?

  Parenting hasn't changed that much, but the expectations on parenting has changed enormously. I think when we're watching people on social media kind of Do insane things around their children.

• 34:40Speaker 01

  Like what?

• 34:40Emma Grede?

  I don't know, like making a really elaborate packed lunch, for example. You know, the pressure and that's just like a small thing.

• 34:48Speaker 01

  The perfection of it all.

• 34:48Emma Grede?

  That level of like, okay, like I'm just gonna over parent the situation. I'm gonna create these insane schedules and these insane lunches.

• 34:56Speaker 01

  In a way, I'm glad I missed that.

• 34:58Emma Grede?

  I mean, yeah, because I think that women do absorb that. They do look in their feeds and think that that's.

• 35:03Speaker 01

  They feel they're inadequate.

• 35:04Emma Grede?

  Absolutely.

• 35:04Speaker 01

  And it's not real.

• 35:06Emma Grede?

  It's not real. It's not real. I think there are many ways to come into parenting. And my point of view is that I don't think children need nearly as much as we might think they do.

• 35:17Speaker 01

  Well, we know that we, you know, the whole concept of a helicopter mom is a real thing. And so I think kids, I used to entertain myself outside in a country.

• 35:28Emma Grede?

  Oh, yeah. We were left to our own device.

• 35:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:30Emma Grede?

  If there was an apple in the house, my mom was like, they'll be fine.

• 35:34Speaker 01

  But I remember during COVID, my boys were enjoying Miami a little too much. So I sent them to work with Navy SEALs in North Carolina.

• 35:42Emma Grede?

  No, you didn't. You really are a tough mom.

• 35:44Speaker 01

  It is the best decision. If they wanted a bath, they had to build it. It was like.

• 35:50Emma Grede?

  We were all taking it easy during COVID.

• 35:52Speaker 01

  No, but they were going out to parties in Miami during COVID.

• 35:55Emma Grede?

  You're like, no, no.

• 35:55Speaker 01

  This is over.

• 35:57Emma Grede?

  You're like, that is not what we're doing. Was that a hard time for you in the business?

• 36:01Speaker 01

  Oh, my God.

• 36:02Emma Grede?

  I mean.

• 36:02Speaker 01

  It was brutal.

• 36:03Emma Grede?

  It was brutal, right? It was so brutal.

• 36:06Speaker 01

  If you think about 5,000 employees, you think about 400, well, at that point, 375 stores shut. We had no visibility on when they would open, if they would open, and we had to pay healthcare. And so I was trying to figure out, how do we do the payroll so people could get healthcare? And it was very real because that March, someone very close to me that had worked with me for 15 years, I was in a meeting with her on Friday and on Monday she was dead. And it was from COVID. And I just knew she hadn't come to a meeting and I was really worried about her. And that it was four days after I was with her and she, anyway. So we knew it was incredibly serious and it was incredibly tough.

• 36:49Emma Grede?

  How does Tori cope in a crisis?

• 36:52Speaker 01

  Well, I get better in a cr- I don't want to say that because I don't want to.

• 36:56Emma Grede?

  I don't want you to be tested.

• 36:57Speaker 01

  I don't want to keep them coming, but I do get pretty, I get better and more focused in a crisis. I think I was also trying to help our industry and working with the government and trying to get payroll for like, and getting our industry to be considered as big as the food industry or the airline industry, because we're talking about over 14 million jobs.

• 37:18Emma Grede?

  Most people during COVID kind of went into a hole and was like, okay, let me just like see when this can go away. But you're out there fighting for your industry, having bigger conversations, trying to expand into new spaces. I think the same with the foundation. It's so much bigger than the business and the brand in so many ways in terms of like really changing people's lives. Where does that come from?

• 37:39Speaker 01

  Being able to have a company that can be responsible for positive change is something that is very inspiring to me. That's why I started our company is not only to be financially independent, because that was part of it, but it was also how can we impact as many people as we possibly can? And I would say that came from me since I was a very little girl. I've always wanted to help people. I grew up in a kind of crazy environment of my parents taking so many different kinds of people in, never knowing who was going to be at the dinner table, like having a kennel of German shepherds. We had 50 shepherds. My parents would have all these kind of crazy people come.

• 38:21Speaker 01

  And so I just saw a lot of interesting, different kind of people. And I also saw a lot of people who struggled. My little brother, who we adopted, he came with his mother. She had schizophrenia. So I saw a lot of the hardship of mental illness and what that meant. And so I've always wanted to give back. And I thought if the company could do that, that's such a win. It's such a win for the bottom line also.

• 38:56Emma Grede?

  I'm really interested in this subject because I think it's way more prevalent amongst female founders and entrepreneurs than men, that they want to include some type of community impact sentiment within their brand. And I always think about that as being an incredible thing to do when you can do it, when the business has the roots, the profit, the infrastructure to be able to handle it. How did you introduce that to your brand and what do you think about that more generally?

• 39:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, well, it was my business plan from day one. So for me, that was something that was in my head. I think it was a long conversation of getting people to understand it and believe in it. And also, I was really worried when I first launched the foundation, started the foundation in 2009, I never wanted it to be perceived as marketing in any way. So I didn't really talk about it. And I wanted the work to start speaking for itself. We started with mentor events where I would have 10 incredible people in business and I'd invite 100 women entrepreneurs and it was like speed dating for the night. And it was really valuable, just some of the gems or lessons they learned. And so that was the beginning. But you know, there was a lot of negativity. That's one thing we

• 40:09Speaker 01

  haven't touched on. There were so many articles written that were just incredibly negative.

• 40:14Emma Grede?

  Did that get to you?

• 40:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, of course it did. I think one thing my mom always said is don't read it. And so I really don't read a lot of it because it was very hurtful. It was a vanity project. It was the foundation. Why do you need to work? Like there's, goes back to perception and reality. We didn't have a lot of money. Everyone thought we did, but that's not the reality of what it was. So when we made an investment into our company, it was a big deal for us. So there were so many different things I was dealing with.

• 40:44Emma Grede?

  Did you ever get angry about that? How do you react when you read things about yourself and when the perception's so strong?

• 40:51Speaker 01

  I got used to it. I don't know that I got angry. I would say I would get hurt for a minute and then I'd move on. I'm a good recoverer. And I don't, I've, I say to my kids-

• 41:03Emma Grede?

  Don't you just have to be-

• 41:03Speaker 01

  It's very freeing to let things go. I'm very good at letting things go and I don't hold things.

• 41:08Emma Grede?

  You, were you always like that?

• 41:10Speaker 01

  Always like that. I can't have the negativity around me. It's not a place I feel comfortable.

• 41:14Emma Grede?

  I mean, there was a moment when your brand faced a fair bit of criticism, changing consumer sentiment. I wonder how you navigated that period.

• 41:24Speaker 01

  You know, it's funny, like, everyone says, you're back and you have this, as they, they've used so many different words to describe our reinvention and our evolution. I said to my boys, I'm like, I didn't know I went anywhere.

• 41:37Emma Grede?

  She's like, what?

• 41:39Speaker 01

  Listen, I, I had this idea, like, I, I realized that the creative process was something I was so passionate about in the beginning and so involved in. As I started building the business, the CEO role is something that really overtook me. And so I was the CEO for 14 years, building a company and running, managing a company. What I realized is that I was missing what I was really passionate about, and that was the design and creativity.

• 42:05Emma Grede?

  It's a big decision, though, and one that I find specifically for female founders can really often elude them. They either don't leave at the right time and take a, assume a new position, or they don't think that they're right to be the CEO. Will you just talk to me a little bit more about what that time looked like? Because I'm assuming when it's your name on the door, you just assume the identity as the CEO. But 14 years in, you, you could afford it to bring somebody else in.

• 42:33Speaker 01

  I could have, but it was like, I just became it because it was, I was doing it. I, again, had a great team of people, so that said, I did try to hire a co-CEO at one point, which did not work out.

• 42:45Emma Grede?

  I remember.

• 42:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:46Emma Grede?

  We all read about it.

• 42:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm sure everything has been written about it one way or another, but, you know, listen, I tried and it was four years of trying to figure out, knowing that this wasn't my skill set. Did I learn on the job and was, am I proud of what we built? A hundred percent, but to have Pierre-Yves come and I had to marry him to get him to do that.

• 43:05Emma Grede?

  You were like, hey, I've got a good idea.

• 43:08Speaker 01

  I promise that wasn't my idea from the beginning. He was going to invest in our brand at LVMH and then we realized that maybe we had other intentions.

• 43:16Emma Grede?

  Just, just for anybody who doesn't know and who doesn't come from fashion, Pierre-Yves is your partner.

• 43:21Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 43:22Emma Grede?

  But also one of the most sought after. And influential fashion executives on the planet. And one of the most competent and brilliant people came from LVMH. And so like the the dream of all dream CEOs for any brand, I would say.

• 43:36Speaker 01

  Right. And and I said that to my board. I'm like, this is not a favor. This is a present to all of you.

• 43:42Emma Grede?

  This is a gift to you guys.

• 43:44Speaker 01

  So it's like for him to actually want to do this.

• 43:47Emma Grede?

  Yeah, that's a big deal.

• 43:48Speaker 01

  I think it was a huge deal. So for me, it was a given that he is this expert that I struggled with to. I'm sorry, implementing SAP and tax structures and all the things that you have to do is not what I'm passionate about. But he is so strategic and what's brilliant about period is he has this brilliance in business, but he's also a creative.

• 44:09Emma Grede?

  Yeah.

• 44:09Speaker 01

  Talent and he understands creative people.

• 44:12Emma Grede?

  But you know, for 14 years, you really did do it. And I'm interested in those four years when you brought somebody else in. Was that because you felt like you no longer wanted the role or you felt like you weren't living up to it?

• 44:24Speaker 01

  I felt like it was the the scale of the business was getting bigger and bigger. And I think one of the things that I have learned is that it's equally as important to leave at the right time. And certainly I gave up the CEO, but I'm much more into the company than I've ever been right now. So I was certainly not leaving, but I was I was pivoting and changing to sort of match my strengths. And that was super important. And I think people need to learn that women and men, I don't think that's just women.

• 44:53Emma Grede?

  No, I think everybody needs to know that. What was the first big creative decision you made after stepping down as this CEO?

• 44:59Speaker 01

  Well, it was during COVID, so I did sort of this palate cleanser and it was the Shaker collection. So I grew up in sort of a Quaker and went to Quaker schools. And so the concept of the Shaker museum and the minimalist, for me, that was just like a great way to start again.

• 45:16Emma Grede?

  Right.

• 45:16Speaker 01

  And to sort of think rethink everything and not lose sight of our customer and lose sight of the beautiful things that we've built, but also reinvent everything that we had done. So whether it was a ballet flat, I wanted to look at that ballet flat and redesign it, but make it better. And I felt that I had the expertise now to do that.

• 45:35Emma Grede?

  Yeah, and also the headspace.

• 45:37Speaker 01

  I was thinking about headspace earlier today because what I realized is that first fourteen years, I had so much chaos and so much going on, whether it was personal, whether it was the company growth, I didn't have time to think properly.

• 45:52Emma Grede?

  Yeah.

• 45:52Speaker 01

  So in a way, the positive of COVID, which obviously there were so many negatives, but the positive was it gave me a chance to reset and actually have time to think. And that's something that I really value.

• 46:04Emma Grede?

  How did your identity as a founder changed after stepping back out of the CEO role?

• 46:10Speaker 01

  I mean, it didn't change. I think a lot of women asked me if that was a difficult decision because there are so few women CEOs. I have to say it was the easiest decision I've ever made. I do love the fact that I was a CEO and that's a wonderful thing and I want women to be CEOs if that's what they choose, but it also has to be the right fit and you have to be what's right for the business at that time.

• 46:35Emma Grede?

  Yeah, and it's a hard job.

• 46:38Speaker 01

  It's hard. Well, it's impossible to do creative and on the business.

• 46:42Emma Grede?

  I think it's completely impossible. I also think that you don't have to be the CEO to be the one calling the shots.

• 46:48Speaker 01

  No, and that's exactly it. And you know.

• 46:51Emma Grede?

  Which I don't know that a lot of people, specifically female founders, understand.

• 46:56Speaker 01

  Well, it's interesting because a lot of people ask me how I've kept control of the company and that's something that has been very important to me, that corporate governance and just roles and responsibilities and decisions. And we wouldn't have had to bring in private equity because we did the fundraise and then we were profitable in our second year. And the company profits built the company. Why I needed to bring in private equity is because in my divorce, Chris got 50% of the company. And so I needed to get him out of the company. He wanted to get out.

• 47:29Emma Grede?

  You had to buy him out.

• 47:30Speaker 01

  I had to buy him out and that's why we ended up bringing private equity in.

• 47:33Emma Grede?

  Did you end up doing a good deal when you bought him out?

• 47:36Speaker 01

  We did. It depends on which time. It's been different iterations, but I picked two good partners that are still with us today. And I think private equity is, it's a different model. You know, I want to build a, a brand that has longevity. I've always wanted to be the best brand, not the biggest brand. And I knew that being a patient brand sometimes wouldn't be easy for investors. But I wanted to make decisions when I felt it was the right time, not just to build for growth's sake. I wanted to build for longevity.

• 48:09Emma Grede?

  Was it the right decision, both for you and for the company, to buy Chris out?

• 48:14Speaker 01

  Yes, and to set up a proper board.

• 48:16Emma Grede?

  Right. Was it the right decision to bring on the private equity partners?

• 48:20Speaker 01

  It was. And I would say, no matter what, when private equity says they're long term, it's seven years. Our private equity partners have been in thirteen. But that's because of COVID and all the other things.

• 48:32Emma Grede?

  Yeah, fair enough. That slows everything down a little bit. What did you learn about private equity that you wish you'd have known?

• 48:38Speaker 01

  I don't want this to sound like a negative, but they're not operators of businesses. And that's probably the biggest thing that I can take away. They're great at buying businesses and selling them, but they're not in the weeds, operating businesses.

• 48:51Emma Grede?

  Yeah. And I just don't know that that's always implicitly understood. Were there ever any regrets about having your name as the company name?

• 48:59Speaker 01

  Well, you know, as I said, I didn't want to use my name. So I launched.

• 49:02Emma Grede?

  Such a good name though.

• 49:04Speaker 01

  Well, I launched with a different name. It was a terrible name in retrospect. It was Tori by TRB. So bad. And do you know someone named Kenny J. Lane?

• 49:12Emma Grede?

  Yes. Oh, my goodness. I don't know him personally, but I know who that.

• 49:16Speaker 01

  I was very close to Kenny. He takes me out to lunch and he said, you need to change your terrible name of your company.

• 49:23Emma Grede?

  What a great friend.

• 49:25Speaker 01

  He said, everyone's calling it Tori Birch. Tori by TRB is the worst name. And he was so right. There are so many lessons that I look back and I'm like, oh, my God, I can't believe I did that.

• 49:34Emma Grede?

  I mean, first of all, amazing that he said it and amazing that you listened.

• 49:38Speaker 01

  I listened right away.

• 49:38Emma Grede?

  You can really hold on to those things.

• 49:40Speaker 01

  I wasn't attached.

• 49:42Emma Grede?

  Good American was called Grace in the beginning.

• 49:44Speaker 01

  Oh, it was?

• 49:44Emma Grede?

  Yeah, absolutely. And my wonderful partner was like, I just, I love everything about this, but I don't like the name. And I was like, I'll find another name. Just like, let's do this.

• 49:53Speaker 01

  As soon as they said that, did you agree?

• 49:54Emma Grede?

  Immediately, because to me it was a working, I needed to create something and mock something up. And that was just, it was a name that weirdly enough, we had another company. And so I owned that name. So I was like, I can legitimately, if I need to launch something, I can use this name. And for whatever reason, it wasn't right for a

• 50:12Speaker 01

  I mean, I, I love being pointed, when people point things out because you're so busy doing so many things. So sometimes someone needs to say something and you're like, of course.

• 50:21Emma Grede?

  You can take the feedback. It feels like you're extremely resilient.

• 50:26Speaker 01

  Well, I'm an information gatherer and I like to hear people's feedback. I don't always take it and agree with it, but I love to get it.

• 50:38Speaker 04

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• 51:23Speaker 04

  For the work they want to get right, and these businesses are helping Anthropic shape what comes next. Build your business with support from Claude at claude.ai/odyssey.

• 51:38Emma Grede?

  How do you go about gathering information when you have a big decision to make? What does it look like in practice?

• 51:44Speaker 01

  I mean, I talk to our team, I talk to my family. I mean, my family is super supportive. But I think at the end of the day, you have to go with your instinct and instinct is, has been critical for me. And I'm not sure where that comes from. I think a lot of women have great instinct and they need to listen to it more.

• 52:01Emma Grede?

  I feel like the world sees this kind of like billion dollar fashion icon. But how do you see yourself?

• 52:08Speaker 01

  Well, not like that. I don't even think about that.

• 52:10Emma Grede?

  But you must think about the success you've had from where you started. Like even if it's not in the monetary terms, I mean, it's a really big globally known brand. You know, it's one of the ones where we could flash your logo and people would go, sorry about.

• 52:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, and it's not something that I I think a lot about. So when you say that, yeah, it's incredible. I'm so, I I guess grateful because it's exciting and I love it. But I don't spend a lot of time thinking about it like that. What I do think about is how can I really change the dynamic for people? And that's something that really is inspiring to me. When I think about those early investors, a lot of them didn't have any money. And they put in $10,000 and it changed their life. And that $10,000 allowed them to put their children through college. I remember.

• 52:55Emma Grede?

  What a great feeling.

• 52:56Speaker 01

  There's, to me, there's nothing that's better than that. If I can.

• 53:00Emma Grede?

  There is nothing better than that.

• 53:01Speaker 01

  There's nothing better than that. And I talk to my kids a lot about that. When you can move the needle and help either someone look at something a bit differently, change a dynamic, have women understand that the power is within them. And that's something that I've learned. I remember hearing a couple of people I admire speak. And I used to talk about women's empowerment. And what they said is that it's not like you're bestowing it upon them. And I said, you're absolutely right. They have it. So we want to make sure they understand that they have it within them. And how do we help them bring it to fruition?

• 53:35Emma Grede?

  There's just so much amazing work that you do, which kind of brings me to your foundation. Because it's anything but some marketing. I mean, it's such a hugely impactful foundation that you have.

• 53:49Speaker 01

  The best kept secret, which we don't want to be anymore.

• 53:52Emma Grede?

  No, and and and nor do I think that you should be. But will you just talk a little bit about the scale of that operation? What you're actually doing? Because I think it would be so interesting to an audience of people, specifically those that are listening to this show.

• 54:04Speaker 01

  Well, we we started it, the company was 2004 and then the foundation was 2009. And so since then, we have built a community of incredible women across the United States. We definitely talk to women beyond the United States, but it's really about the US that we focus. And it's about community, it's about capital and education. And so we have fellowship programs. We now have just announced another fellowship program where we take 120 entrepreneurs a year. And it's an extensive year of mentorship, of connectivity, of giving them a small grant, of creating a community.

• 54:44Speaker 01

  And when we see entrepreneurs reach a million dollars in revenue, we see a sustainable business. So to me, that is exciting. When you meet these women, they are so exceptional and it's inspiring. I mean, it's as inspiring for my team, because a lot of our team are mentors, as it is for the entrepreneurs. And we see a community of people that's growing and we want to reach as many people as we can because we're just about to reach another phase of our partnership with Bank of America.

• 55:16Emma Grede?

  Amazing.

• 55:16Speaker 01

  And I can't wait. I can't wait to talk to you about this because it's not ready yet. But they committed a hundred million dollars to us, which we gave out and which that was done. So now I set up a meeting with Brian Moynihan and I said, but I want real impact and scale.

• 55:32Emma Grede?

  You're like, a hundred million was great, having said that.

• 55:36Speaker 01

  So they're committed and they're doing amazing work. And collectively, what we could do together is pretty extraordinary. So that is going to be a very exciting new chapter, which I hope to announce something at this foundation breakfast, which we're about to have. But, you know, we also have free seminars on education. Thousands of people have written business plans, but we focus on after a business has been started. And we have committed to reaching a billion dollars by 2030 to add to the economy through our entrepreneurs. So I think we're

• 56:10Emma Grede?

  Which is a really audacious goal.

• 56:11Speaker 01

  It's an audacious goal. We're at about 240 million dollars right now, but we can do it and they can do it.

• 56:18Emma Grede?

  No, no doubt. And I think it's so important, you know, again, we hear so many people talk about women supporting women, but talk about putting your money where your mouth is. Both in that company money, but you know, your impact, your relationships, it's really unbelievably impressive. And I think any women that have ever been touched by the foundation, they just, you know, it's what an amazing thing that you've created. What an amazing platform. And it seems to me like it's just going to go from strength to strength and touch even more founders.

• 56:49Speaker 01

  Well, women are the answer. And when I look at what's happening in the chaotic world that we live in, a lot of this would be solved if women were thinking it through. And that's how I really feel.

• 57:00Emma Grede?

  Tori, you are preaching to the converted over here. I just, I honestly.

• 57:05Speaker 01

  A lot of men feel that way as well.

• 57:06Emma Grede?

  I think a lot of, I think a lot of men feel that way. And that's why it's so important to have these conversations and to talk about women and power and money, because the two things are really inextricably linked. We are desperate right now in the world for more women in positions of power. To me, there is no, it's not debatable, it's not a conversation, it's absolutely what we need.

• 57:26Speaker 01

  You know, I look at the women that we work with, and I mentioned they're inspiring. They often are single moms, they have two or three jobs, they're investing into the communities, they're great investments, they're paying back their loans at a ninety-eight percent rate. So, and then venture capital is going down. So it's, there's an equation that's not adding up.

• 57:46Emma Grede?

  Yes.

• 57:47Speaker 01

  And more women are starting companies because structurally, the workforce doesn't work for women.

• 57:53Emma Grede?

  I was looking at a statistic, I think just yesterday, that was five hundred thousand women have dropped out of the workforce. It's, you know, we aren't setting women up to succeed, and it's so much more simple than we think, so much more simple. But I think just again, having the conversation, showing women what's possible, being a model for that possibility, that's what's really important because you can't be what you don't see.

• 58:16Speaker 01

  Well, you started out, you were looking at me. I promise you, if I can do it, anyone could do it. If someone asked me twenty-four years ago, what I would be doing today, I would have had no idea. So.

• 58:27Emma Grede?

  You wouldn't know. That's so, I mean, that's so insane to me. What do you even say? What advice do you give to somebody who's right at the beginning of their journey?

• 58:35Speaker 01

  I mean, I go back to a lot of things that my mom and dad said to me is that, you know, if you work hard, if you have a unique idea, if you have resilience and tenacity and grit and all these things that we talk about, but really you have to, you have to love what you do and you have to find that out. I think sometimes it takes people time to know and how to identify themselves. I was thinking about your book and you knew exactly what you wanted. I don't know that I knew exactly what I wanted. I think it became this iterative process and then I realized what I wanted.

• 59:10Emma Grede?

  I think for most people it's like that, but even with me, I had an idea that I wanted to be in the fashion space, but I think like life happens in seasons. You don't get, you know, I worked so many jobs that were so outside of the realms of the things that I really loved.

• 59:24Speaker 01

  Like what? What were some of the jobs?

• 59:25Emma Grede?

  Oh, you know, what, but the worst one was fashion show production because in my head I was gonna be at the shows. In reality, you are backstage, you don't see the show, you work for three months on something that's like up and down in 20 seconds and you're not even invited to the after party. I was like, this is the worst job ever!

• 59:43Speaker 01

  Okay, I had one worse. I was a sample manager.

• 59:46Emma Grede?

  Oh, yeah, I mean, in a PR agency, I mean, I did that. I packed those boxes and I mean, and it's just, you'd see the clothes, you'd see the things and you're like, I had this part of that. Like, that's it. Yeah.

• 59:58Speaker 01

  I remember dressing a celebrity once and she wouldn't look at me. She was looking in the mirror the whole time and she was like, it was, it was just, you know, these things add a little.

• 1:00:08Emma Grede?

  But it's part of it. Do you know what? And that's it. I mean, it adds a little to you and you learn so much. I went all around London doing work experience of things that I just knew I didn't want to do.

• 1:00:20Speaker 01

  Right. And every job might not be the perfect job, but you take something from it.

• 1:00:23Emma Grede?

  You're gonna take something from it.

• 1:00:24Speaker 01

  And that's what I say to a lot of young girls today and even young men is that make it entrepreneurial. Maybe you're not an, you know, I went to speak at Stanford and the class overwhelmingly said they wanted to be entrepreneurs, which I found really interesting because what they're not saying is I have found this company that I'm passionate about. It's really that they have this mindset. Set of just being an entrepreneur.

• 1:00:46Emma Grede?

  It's really true.

• 1:00:47Speaker 01

  It's kind of interesting.

• 1:00:48Emma Grede?

  You can be entrepreneurial in a corporate job.

• 1:00:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:00:51Emma Grede?

  Right? You can have an entrepreneurial mindset and you can be a big thinker and you can be somebody that thinks outside the box and is a self-starter and gets things done. I always felt like I was that when I was being paid a salary, you know? So I feel like there's a lot of places to be entrepreneurial. What do you think you're still trying to figure out?

• 1:01:08Speaker 01

  Well, I still am trying to figure out a lot. I think, you know, I, as I mentioned, as you sit and rethink a company, just aesthetically and and and not leaving who you are. So to me, it's like a fine balance of evolution, kind of reinvention, but not leaving the essence of who you are. It's kind of finding that balance. I I think everyone's a bit of a work in progress. I don't think I'll ever have figured anything out. I think being intellectually curious and always trying to just keep your empathy and and understand how other people are feeling and the world around us. If I'm struggling, I know

• 1:01:47Speaker 01

  a lot of people are struggling right now. So how do you show up and be a good partner, listener, boss, friend? Everything to people when there's so much chaos. So that's something I think a lot about is how do you? How do you lessen the blow?

• 1:02:02Emma Grede?

  Yeah. What do you still aspire to?

• 1:02:05Speaker 01

  Well, I think I aspire, I look at my children and as I said, they, we've been through a lot to see them be entrepreneurs themselves. My twins started a company in Jakarta called Butter Baby.

• 1:02:18Emma Grede?

  When you tell me this, I love this.

• 1:02:19Speaker 01

  So exciting to see them working so hard and my son, Henry and Nick, and then my son Sawyer, and to see my stepdaughters all working and thriving. Uh, I guess I aspire to through them because it makes me super happy. I mean, you, I'm sure your mom said this to you, you're as happy as your least happy child. It is so incredibly true. When my kids are thriving and doing well, I am great. I can deal with anything. And so it makes life a lot easier, like all the blows that happen, whether it's, you know, the stuff happening in work or the tariffs or the Middle East, all these things that are so hard to comprehend, to understand. But when your family is doing well, that helps you be able to deal with it.

• 1:03:04Emma Grede?

  I mean, that's all you can hope for.

• 1:03:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:03:05Emma Grede?

  Okay, I just have a few rapid fire for you. What is the first thing you do in the morning?

• 1:03:11Speaker 01

  Walk my dogs and call my mom.

• 1:03:13Emma Grede?

  Love that. Every day?

• 1:03:14Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:03:14Emma Grede?

  That's the best.

• 1:03:15Speaker 01

  And if I don't, I hear about it.

• 1:03:18Emma Grede?

  And what's the last thing you do at night?

• 1:03:20Speaker 01

  Same.

• 1:03:21Emma Grede?

  Really? Do you speak to your mom twice a day?

• 1:03:23Speaker 01

  I do.

• 1:03:23Emma Grede?

  Oh, my goodness. That's just the most adorable, delightful thing ever. Do you speak to your kids all the time as well?

• 1:03:29Speaker 01

  I try to.

• 1:03:29Emma Grede?

  You're one of those families.

• 1:03:31Speaker 01

  I try to tell them how I speak to my mom.

• 1:03:33Emma Grede?

  Yeah, you're like, call me. What's the best piece of business advice that you've ignored?

• 1:03:39Speaker 01

  Don't think of business and purpose in the same sentence.

• 1:03:43Emma Grede?

  It's a good one. You're packing for vacation, your suitcase is full. What are the two clothing items that you aren't leaving without?

• 1:03:51Speaker 01

  Oh, gosh. Okay, my Tori sports sweatpants. And, oh, that's really hard. I have to think about that. I guess a cashmere sweater. I like hanging out.

• 1:04:01Emma Grede?

  I was gonna say, you're on a very casual holiday for you.

• 1:04:04Speaker 01

  I know. That's when I hang out in the room.

• 1:04:06Emma Grede?

  I love it. And she's saying in the room. What's one thing every female founder needs to hear before she starts?

• 1:04:14Speaker 01

  Don't sell yourself short and believe in yourself and understand you have the power within.

• 1:04:19Emma Grede?

  And what is a book that changed your life?

• 1:04:22Speaker 01

  I have to say, one of the most beautiful books that I've ever read is A Hundred Years of Solitude. And for me, I've read it twice. And it's just about perception, reality, time, meaning, and generational repetition and sort of how things happen or not happen. And chance and magic and mystery.

• 1:04:45Emma Grede?

  That is definitely one that has to go on our listeners reading list. Tori, thank you so much. You're wonderful.

• 1:04:51Speaker 01

  That was incredible. Thank you.

• 1:04:56Emma Grede?

  If you're loving this podcast, be sure to click follow on your favorite listening platform. While you're there, give us a review and a five star rating and share an episode you loved with a friend. We'll be so grateful. Aspire with Emma Grede is presented by Odyssey. I'm your host, Emma Grede. Executive producer, Ashley McShan, Derek Brown, and me. Our executive producers from Odyssey, Leah Reese Dennis, Asha Saluja, Lauren Legrosso. Producer-

• 1:05:21Emma Grede?

  KK Sublime. Stephen Key is our senior producer. Sound design and engineering by Bill Schultz. Angela Peluso is our booker. Original music by Charles Black. Video production by Evan Cox, Kurt Courtney, Andrew Steele, and Carla Stelgardo. Social media by Olivia Homan, Catherine Bale. Special thanks to Brittany Smith, Sidney Ford, my teams at The Lead Company and WME, Maura Curran, Josefina Francis, Hilary Schuff, Eric Donnelly, Kate Hutchinson Rose, Tim Meekle, Shaun Cherry, and Lauren Vieira. If you have questions for me, you can DM me at aspirewithemagreed. Greed is spelt G R E D E. That's aspire, A S P I R E, with emagreed.

• 1:06:06Emma Grede?

  Or you can submit a question to me on my website, emagreed.me.