Norman Finkelstein Cuts Through Israel’s Propaganda: Gaza Genocide, Oct. 7 & Netanyahu’s Corruption

(00:00) The Gaza Concentration Camp (11:37) The Military and Intel Operations Focused on Destroying Gaza (14:05) Evidence of Israel's Genocide in Gaza (27:58) The Attacks Against Anyone Who Criticizes Israel (1:11:34) Why They Kicked Finkelstein Out of Hunter College Norman Finkelstein received his doctorate from the Department of Politics at Princeton University. His books have been translated into some sixty foreign editions. They include The Holocaust Industry, What Gandhi Says, and I’ll Burn That Bridge When I Get to It. A 2020 study ranked Finkelstein the fifth most influential political scientist in the world. Norman Finkelstein’s new book is Gaza’s Gravediggers: https://orbooks.com/catalog/gazas-gravediggers Paid partnerships with: Hallow prayer app: Get 3 months free at https://Hallow.com/TuckerStopBox USA: Get firearm security redesigned and save 10% off @StopBoxUSA with code TUCKER at https://stopboxusa.com/TUCKER American Financing: NMLS 182334, nmlsconsumeraccess.org. APR for rates in the 5s start at 6.327% for well qualified borrowers. Call 800-685-5696 for details about credit costs and terms. Visit http://www. AmericanFinancing.net/Tucker. Joi + Blokes: Use code TUCKER for 65% off your labs and 20% off all peptides and supplements at https://joiandblokes.com/tucker Alp Pouch: Shop the new Frontier collection at https://AlpPouch.com/Tucker Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:34Tucker Carlson?

  I want to ask you about the October 7 attacks or in the aftermath. So the October 7 attacks happened. And for those of us who are not really following Gaza, I was definitely in that category. It seems to kind of come out of nowhere.

• 0:51Speaker 02

  Correct.

• 0:52Tucker Carlson?

  And the main question that I had was, well, how could Israel not have seen this coming? But what I didn't think enough about is, why did the attack happen? What was the context for that? Which is not to excuse it. I just want to be clear, I'm not excusing that or any killing of innocents. But what was happening in Gaza right before that?

• 1:11Speaker 02

  Well, it's not just the right before that. Gaza becomes Gaza in 1948 after Israel expels roughly 750,000 Palestinian Arabs from the area that becomes Israel. Of those 750,000, 300,000 are expelled to Gaza. And they become roughly 80% of Gaza's population, obviously swamping the original Gazan population. Now there are all these Gazans from Israel.

• 1:46Tucker Carlson?

  Who hold Egyptian citizenship at that point.

• 1:49Speaker 02

  In 1948, Gaza is simply part of mandated Palestine.

• 1:55Tucker Carlson?

  Okay.

• 1:56Speaker 02

  A British mandated Palestine. So about 80% of the population are now refugees. If you go back and look at the literature, it's quite interesting that already in the 1950s, UN officials who are stationed in Gaza. Now, this is when Gaza is under Egyptian control. Okay? Because Egypt gains administrative control over Gaza after the 1948 war. Already, it's being described as a concentration camp.

• 2:39Speaker 02

  Now, this is under Egyptian control. If we fast forward to 1967, in July 1967, Al Gore Senior, the father of the person.

• 2:55Tucker Carlson?

  Senator from Tennessee.

• 2:56Speaker 02

  Correct. Al Gore Senior, he goes to visit Gaza. That's correct. And then he comes back and he testifies before Congress on what he observed. And he describes Gaza as, quote, "a concentration camp on the send, if you will." So already, beginning in 1948, outside observers coming to Gaza, that's their reference. Now, in 2004, the head of Israel's National Security Council,

• 3:42Speaker 02

  his name is Giora Island. Giora Island is not a peacenik. He's still among the living, still very active advising, right as we speak, the Israeli government. He was the one who said around 2024, he said, "If epidemics break out in southern Gaza, that's a good thing. It's a good thing for the epidemics."

• 4:07Tucker Carlson?

  Epidemic of disease?

• 4:08Speaker 02

  Yes. And now, in 2004, he's having a conversation with senior US officials. And he describes Gaza as, quote, "a huge concentration camp." Now, bear in mind, the first individuals I mentioned, that's 50s, early, mid 60s. "concentration camp" had a very definite resonance. And yet, those are the words that leapt to mind. Or those are the descriptives that leapt to mind. Giora Island is Israeli.

• 4:53Speaker 02

  He's Jewish. He's the chief of Israel's, the head of Israel's National Security Council. As a Jew and as an Israeli, surely he knew the resonance of describing a parcel of land as a concentration camp. That's the descriptive he used. Now, here's the, not footnote, but here is the big qualifier. That was Gaza in its best days. That's a fact. That was Gaza in its best days.

• 5:38Speaker 02

  In 2006, our president, George Bush, he embarked on what he called "democracy promotion." You might remember that phase. And part of democracy promotion was, he told the Palestinians, they had to hold elections. Hamas did not want to participate in the elections because they saw it as part of what was called the Oslo process. Namely, when Clinton, President Clinton, Yasser Arafat, and Israab being signed an agreement in 1993, which Hamas felt was a sellout. So they didn't want to participate in the elections

• 6:23Speaker 02

  because they thought it was part of what was called the Oslo process. Pressures put on them, pressures put on them. They finally agreed to participate. Well, they run on a reform platform because the Palestinian Authority is hopelessly corrupt. And they win the election. Well, the wrong side won. Hillary Clinton later said, "We made a big mistake. We should have made sure that Hamas didn't win," which is her concept of a democratic election. So the moment Hamas gets elected,

• 7:06Speaker 02

  Jimmy Carter, who observed the election, he called it, quote, "free and completely free and fair elections." That's how he described it. It was actually the first free and fair democratic elections in the Arab world. The first time. Some people say Tunisia before, but I think it's credible to say these are the first fully free and fair elections. Israel at that moment, it imposes, and then followed by the US and the EU, imposes this medieval blockade on Gaza. It draws up this long list of things that you can't allow into Gaza.

• 7:49Speaker 02

  You can't allow in chocolate. You can't allow in baby chicks. You can't allow in potato chips. You can't allow in any condiments. You can't allow in musical instruments. You can't allow in notebooks. And they said, they were very open, well, I shouldn't say they were very open about it, but the documents were eventually released. They were going to put the people of Gaza on a, quote, "humanitarian minimum diet," which is another way, is the euphemistic way of saying a starvation plus diet.

• 8:34Speaker 02

  And they said they were very open about their goal. "We're going to keep the Gaza economy on the precipice of collapse so the people will ultimately remove Hamas from office." What was called, if you remember, and you don't go back that far, but when the Popular Unity government came into power in Chile in 1971, and the US was very upset about that. And they said, "We're going to turn the screws on Chile until the economy screams." And that's what Israel attempted to do in Gaza.

• 9:19Speaker 02

  And by 2008, the UN humanitarian chief, Mary Robinson, she visited Gaza. And she said, quote, "A whole civilization is being destroyed." I'm not exaggerating. A whole civilization is being destroyed. By October 6, I think it was The Economist magazine, described Gaza as a sinking ship. A UN official described it as a toxic slum. It was a disaster, a disaster zone.

• 10:04Speaker 02

  A human-made disaster zone, that illegal, inhuman blockade of Gaza. And then every few years, Israel launched what it called an operation in Gaza. They use the term, "We're going to mow the lawn in Gaza," which is a kind of humorous metaphor until you factor in that one half of Gaza's population are children.

• 10:42Speaker 02

  And then if we connect the metaphor with the reality, that means the blades of the mowers are cracking the skulls of the children of Gaza.

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• 13:56Tucker Carlson?

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• 14:00Speaker 02

  So you had Operation Cast Lead in 2008/9, Operation Pillar of Defense in 2012, Operation Protective Edge 2014, these high-tech killing sprees. When Operation Protective Edge ended in 2014, it was 51 days. I believe it began July 7th and ended August 26th, I'm pretty sure.

• 14:41Speaker 02

  When it ended, the head of the International Committee of the Red Cross, his name was Peter Morer, he went to Gaza. Now bear in mind, the job description of the head of the ICRC, the International Committee of the Red Cross, is basically to tour war zones. He walked out of Gaza and he said, "Never in my life have I seen the level of destruction that I seen, I saw in Gaza."

• 15:16Speaker 02

  Now, just to give your listeners a juxtaposition, that means placing side by side, in Operation Protective Edge, 18,000 homes were destroyed or severely damaged. Morer said, "I've never seen levels of destruction like that." In Gaza now, 325,000 homes were destroyed since October 7th. In Protective Edge, there was left behind roughly 2.5 million tons of rubble.

• 16:00Speaker 02

  In Gaza now, 61 million tons of rubble. Back then, it was unparalleled in conflict zones in 2014. Now, it's not even a blip on the screen compared to what Israel has done.

• 16:25Tucker Carlson?

  What do we, do we have a reliable estimate of the number of people, all aggregate number of people killed in Gaza since October 7th?

• 16:35Speaker 02

  No, I mean, there are all sorts of projections on the number of persons killed, everything from the numbers that the Gaza Ministry of Health give to, as I said, there's so many different projections, it's hard to know which are credible, which are not credible. And also, how do you calculate it?

• 16:59Tucker Carlson?

  Right.

• 17:00Speaker 02

  You know, are they deaths from bombing artillery shells? But then what about all the deaths from people who, because of hunger, their immune system, the children, their immune systems are significantly compromised and they die technically not from direct fire, they die from medical, medical reasons. So I don't think there is a good number. I, one number which I found interesting, I've not made the comment publicly, I only recently started to think about it.

• 17:41Speaker 02

  There are all sorts of denials that Israel has committed genocide in Gaza, and I'm happy to engage with you on that question. But on a strictly statistical level, the most recent UN report on Gaza deals with the targeting of children in Gaza. And also the West Bank, or the targeting of children in particular in Gaza. Now, if you take the case of the Nazis, and they also say, "That's a key indicator of whether or not we're dealing with a genocide or we're dealing with a war."

• 18:23Speaker 02

  If large numbers of children are being targeted, then the argument that this is a war begins to, um...

• 18:38Speaker 02

  Questions are raised about whether it's a war or whether it's a genocide. The percentage of the current statistics we have, the Gaza Ministry of Health, the percentage of children killed is put at 30%, roughly 30%. In the Nazi Holocaust, the estimates are 6 million Jews were killed, of whom 1.5 million were children. So roughly 25% of those killed were children. Now, if it's correct, and I believe there's certainly a plausible argument, that the number of children killed, the percentage,

• 19:23Speaker 02

  is an indicator of whether we're dealing with a war or whether we're dealing with a genocide. I would say if we're all agreed what happened during the Nazi Holocaust was a genocide, and 25% of the victims were children, then certainly by analogy, a plausible case is in Gaza, if 30% are children, that's a strong argument that it's a genocide.

• 19:55Tucker Carlson?

  I should warn you that the IHRA definition of antisemitism includes comparing the actions of the Israeli government to those of the Nazis. So you've just committed antisemitism.

• 20:05Speaker 02

  Well, the problem is with the IHRA definition is Israelis are all the time comparing their enemies to Nazis. That's a great point. Why do they get to do it? Why do they get to make the comparison, but nobody can compare them to Nazis? That's just totally inconsistent. You go back into history, they said Nasser in Egypt, the first president of Egypt, Gamal Abdel Nasser, they said he was Hitler. They said Saddam Hussein, you might recall, head of state in Iraq, they said Saddam Hitler.

• 20:45Speaker 02

  They all the time saying, they're actually saying the mullahs in Iran are worse than Hitler. Netanyahu said, Prime Minister Netanyahu said, "The Hitler only wanted to conquer Europe, but the mullahs in Iran, when they conquer the world, they're worse than Hitler." Hamas is Hitler, everybody is Hitler. But the moment you say "they carry on like Nazis", it suddenly becomes a taboo, a red line. But that doesn't make any sense to me.

• 21:25Tucker Carlson?

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• 22:09Tucker Carlson?

  Real jobs, no child labor in some weird country. It's totally American. For a limited time, this show's listeners can get 10% off at StopBox when using the code TUCKER at checkout. Visit StopBoxUSA.com and use the code TUCKER for 10% off the whole order. After you purchase, feel free to say that you heard about it right here on this show. So you think it is fair to say that Israel's committing genocide in Gaza?

• 22:33Speaker 02

  I would say the following. If you take the accumulation, the cumulative effect of what Israel has done, you don't look at it discreetly, this action, this action, this action, this action. You take the total picture. So Israel's, the density and the rate of Israel's bombing in Gaza, unprecedented in modern conflict, in some cases, even as far back as World War II. If you take the worst cases in World War II, like Dresden,

• 23:14Speaker 02

  the intensity and rate of destruction is higher in Gaza, that's a fact.

• 23:21Tucker Carlson?

  Than Dresden?

• 23:21Speaker 02

  That's correct. That's correct. Not just Dresden, there's Dresden and a couple of other major cities, but they've slipped my mind. Number of children killed.

• 23:33Tucker Carlson?

  That's shocking, what you just said.

• 23:34Speaker 02

  Yeah, number of children killed. If you take all combat zones in the world combined for the years, say, 2020, 2021, and combine them, all the combat zones, more children killed in Gaza. Amputees, child amputees. I'm not sure if it's child, or maybe it's all amputees. It's now the densest concentration of amputees anywhere in the world.

• 24:15Speaker 02

  Schools, 97% of Gaza's schools have been destroyed or severely damaged. Targeting of hospitals, targeting of medical personnel, targeting of UN workers, targeting of journalists. They're all in a totally different category. They're in a totally different universe than the closest second, closest third, closest fourth. So then what are you to conclude? When you add up, as I said, you take the cumulative picture,

• 25:00Speaker 02

  I don't see how you can possibly reach any other conclusion. The one qualification I would make is, it's not so much a qualification, it's a clarification. I don't believe Israel's goal is genocide. Its goal is empty out Gaza. They were very clear about that. They want to ethnically cleanse Gaza. But the means they are using, their modus operandi, is the destruction of the Gazan population until they leave.

• 25:41Speaker 02

  Now, you could say, but they can't leave because the border is sealed and nobody wants them. And that's true. So they will continue killing until they achieve their goal. And if it's to kill everybody, they will kill everybody. They are dead set on, for once and for all, solving the Gaza question. They want to solve the Gaza question. And for them, solving the Gaza question means the expulsion of the population. And the only way they can persuade the population to leave and persuade neighboring countries of the world at large to take them in

• 26:25Speaker 02

  is to commit a genocide. So I have spent quite a lot of time going through the human rights reports and various other documents. And when you see the cumulative effect of what's been done, I don't see how you can reach any other conclusion. Which is why, as I'm sure you know, not only many, if not most, leading authorities in international law, not a few of them Jewish,

• 27:08Speaker 02

  even Israel's major human rights organization for the occupied territories, that's Selim, persons like, I believe, Arya Nyir, who founded Human Rights Watch, Kenneth Roth. Arya Nyir is a refugee from the Nazi Holocaust. Kenneth Roth, who was the former head of Human Rights Watch in various venues. They have all concluded that it's a genocide. But there's another factor. Now, I'm not saying it's authoritative, but I would certainly say it's indicative.

• 27:57Speaker 02

  The estimates are thirty to forty percent of American Jews believe it's a genocide. That's a kind of astonishing fact. Bombarded as they are from youth to love Israel, attending synagogues where support for Israel is a key, a tenet of belonging. Ah, and yet, and to their absolutely eternal credit,

• 28:39Speaker 02

  it's genuinely a sight to behold. And maybe I should, but I kind of rebel against it, take pride in as a Jew. Thirty to forty percent believe Israel is committing a genocide. It's a credit to that community. And I would add, as I'm sure you're aware, because you told me before the interview that you have been in, so to speak, a Jewish milieu, a large part of your life. Very educated.

• 29:18Speaker 02

  These are not people who are easily bamboozled or duped or tricked. And yet they have reached that conclusion. So here again, I say, if you look at the cumulative picture, experts, human rights organization, International Court of Justice, which reached the preliminary conclusion that Israel was plausibly committing genocide. That was back in January twenty sixth, twenty twenty four.

• 29:57Speaker 02

  So it's long for the horror that unfolded since January twenty sixth. I think it's the other side that has to make a case. The broad consensus is there now. It's a horrible consensus.

• 30:20Tucker Carlson?

  Instead of making the case, what I see happening is attacks, not just verbal attacks, but you know, attacks on people's employment against anybody who, who says, wait, this is, this is cruel and awful. Those people, the Trump administration stripped them of their green cards in a bunch of cases. So, um, I don't see anybody trying to make the case for Israel. I see supporters of Israel attacking anyone who questions Israel. I guess that's what I'm saying.

• 30:49Speaker 02

  That's absolutely correct. What was new after October seventh was that before October twenty, October seventh, when there would be events in Gaza, I won't call them flare ups because you know, it's high tech killing series. It's not much more than a flare up. When there were before, usually Jewish organizations, Jewish supremacist billionaires, they operate behind the scenes. They would call the university president, I don't think you should give that guy tenure or

• 31:32Tucker Carlson?

  Oh, did that happen to you?

• 31:33Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 31:34Tucker Carlson?

  Just kidding. No, famous, famously.

• 31:36Speaker 02

  But I think it happened with a certain amount of frequency, but it was behind the scenes. What changed after two thousand and seven, for the reasons that you just suggested, it was very hard anymore to make a case in public. Too much was known. Too much was seen on the social media. And too much of it, Israel carried on in such a flagrant and brazen fashion with its own citizens in their citizen army posting on the social media,

• 32:17Speaker 02

  the horrors they were committing. It had become so flagrant and brazen. It was impossible to conceal.

• 32:28Tucker Carlson?

  Well, the big difference, I think, was

• 32:29Speaker 02

  I'll just allow me, and I want to give you a chance. And so they started in a very brazen and flagrant way to play the blackmail weapon. People like Bill Ackman, and there were many others, but he sort of was the public face. They would call up, they would say publicly, there would be petitions that were publicized saying, if you don't crush the encampments, the students who were supporting Gaza were withholding alumni contributions. We're not going to give you money. Now, it's true, places like Harvard have large endowments,

• 33:14Speaker 02

  very large endowments. However, it's also true to say that that alumni money was not small change. People like Bill Ackman, he gave Harvard, I believe, fifty million dollars. Two alumni, two Jewish alumni of Harvard gave it respectively. One gave two hundred million. One gave three hundred million. That was big money. Though as I say, still next to the endowment, it's not so big, but still absolutely it's money. Okay? And then they went from school to school. By the end of the, by the end of twenty twenty four,

• 33:59Speaker 02

  the encampments were in the spring of twenty twenty four. They had succeeded in ousting Claudine Gay at Harvard, Elizabeth McGill at U of P, Shafik at Columbia, and then there were many, many, many others. I'm just giving you the Ivy League, the big names. When McGill was ousted from U of P, I happened to be friends with somebody who knows her well from business connections. And he met her and he conveyed to her his sympathies. And two words came forth from her mouth.

• 34:42Speaker 02

  Quote, money talks.

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• 36:03Speaker 00

  Now, more than ever, we need someone on our side. But Rob Whitman? Whitman's votes drove up costs, cut Medicaid, and risked three hundred fifty thousand Virginians healthcare to pay for tax breaks for himself and his donors. He's not on our side. Shannon Taylor will fight corruption, cut taxes and bring down costs. This November, vote for Shannon Taylor. She's for us. Paid for by HMP, the House Majority PAC dot com. Not authorized by any candidate or candidate's committee.

• 36:32Tucker Carlson?

  Slash Tucker.

• 36:34Speaker 02

  It wasn't just universities, by the way. I have friends who work in hospitals. Everybody was terrified, terrified, terrorized to take down anything on their social media in support of Gaza. I have friends at Lincoln Center. The good side of the Jewish tradition is they give generously to cultural institutions, libraries, arts institutions, universities and so forth. You can walk into a library in New York City.

• 37:16Speaker 02

  They list the main donors, ninety five percent Jewish. And it's true across the board. Hospitals, obviously. But the bad side is it's a lot of cultural power. It's a lot of cultural power. And it was then used for, in my opinion, nasty, sinister purposes. You mentioned, and it's true, of course, the Trump administration went after people threatening deportation, disappearing them, throwing them into places of confinement, which were not accessible.

• 38:01Speaker 02

  But here's the thing. That was all spearheaded by the Jewish supremacist billionaire class. And here's another thing. Did they ever protest it? Did they ever say what was done to Mahmoud Khalil from Columbia was wrong? Did they register a single word of dissent? This was the most audacious and

• 38:36Speaker 02

  Stupendous assault on academic freedom. I am, I am ready to argue with anybody. I've studied academic freedom in our country. I've written a large amount on it. There's been nothing like it in the modern history of the United States. The concept of academic freedom begins at the beginning of the 20th century, the early 1900s. And there have been waves of assault on freedom in general, on academic freedom. The Red Scare in the early part of the 20th century.

• 39:17Speaker 02

  Obviously, the McCarthy era, where alleged communists were persecuted and lost their jobs. But there's never been anything. And I know people are going to say I'm engaging in hyperbole, but I ask you the question and I ask the listeners. Three, three Ivy League presidents were ousted. They were all women. Two of the three were women of color.

• 39:55Speaker 02

  So they had all the so-called, you can call it ideological protections of a woke culture. It didn't protect them.

• 40:04Tucker Carlson?

  You're right.

• 40:05Speaker 02

  They had all the protections. Do you know how the New York Times would have screamed to high heaven at three women, two women of color being ousted? Not a peep. And that reign of terror, it is a reign of terror. That continues to this day. I can tell you factually, since that spring of 2024, I've only been invited to speak at two colleges in the United States. That's a fact. Two.

• 40:47Tucker Carlson?

  What's your normal rotation?

• 40:50Speaker 02

  There was a period, mine is, it's gone up and down for various reasons, which are not worth going into, but there were periods where I spoke at 40 schools a year. That's true. Around 40 schools a year. And I'm talking about collectively, I was, I spoke at University of Massachusetts, that was last year. I actually was nicely greeted at Cornell University and the president of the university showed up and he introduced me, which was, I thought courageous on his part. And he was actually friendly to me. I was very tough. I was very tough, but he seemed to believe in the principle of free speech, the John

• 41:34Speaker 02

  Stuart Mill principles, and he had me there, but that's it. Now, remember, I've not been invited anywhere in New York. I live there. I live there. There's a terror that has.

• 41:48Tucker Carlson?

  Where does it come from? I wonder why?

• 41:50Speaker 02

  I think it's perfectly rational. I mean, I have to be honest with you. Look, let me give you a couple of examples. At Harvard University, okay? As you probably know, the Israel supporters, they rented trucks, put students' pictures on the trucks and went through Boston, Cambridge, calling them terrorists. Okay?

• 42:22Tucker Carlson?

  Students who were mad at the Israeli government?

• 42:24Speaker 02

  Students who were active in the encampments. Now, let me tell you something. They also went to the neighborhoods 500 miles away where the kids' families lived. Do you get that?

• 42:42Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 42:43Speaker 02

  If

• 42:44Tucker Carlson?

  Collective punishment.

• 42:45Speaker 02

  If that truck came to my parents' house, my parents would kill me. Now, my parents were in the far, I'm serious. My parents were in the far left. I told you, they were Stalin's diehards till their last breath. But could you imagine a truck going up and down the Jewish neighborhood saying Norman Finkelstein terrorist with my picture there? No. So when you ask me, why did they capitulate? It's amazing. Remember, these schools cost $80,000 a year and the kids are being threatened with suspension,

• 43:30Speaker 02

  expulsion, and even deportation. So what do you think is going to happen? Now, on that point, where's there any grounds for it? These claims about these students being supporters of terrorism or terrorists or antisemites? Let me give you one example, an exemplary case, and that's Harvard. Harvard produces a report, 312 pages, on antisemitism on Harvard campus in the wake of the crushing of the encampments.

• 44:09Speaker 02

  I sit down, I read it, I'm curious, I'm ready to believe maybe an incident here, maybe an incident there. I go through the report. There's nothing there. It's a nothing burger. There's nothing there. So I said, no, I must have gone in with a prejudice. I mean, I said, I must have gone in with a prejudice. Let me reread it. I reread it. They said, at the encampment, somebody had a picture of Alan Garber, the president of Harvard, as a devil. As a devil.

• 44:52Speaker 02

  Somebody had a poster in the encampment. They said, that's obviously antisemitic. Well, I'm not sure where that came from.

• 45:02Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 45:03Speaker 02

  Yeah. They said another person had a map of Palestine where Israel wasn't there. So I think to myself, well, Mr. Netanyahu holds up maps in the UN and there's no Palestine there and there's just Israel there. So that can be really antisemitic. So what is the antisemitism? What is it? And here I'm going to, I'll tell you what it is. It's that they said that Israeli Jewish students in particular, Israeli Jewish students don't feel wanted at Harvard. They feel shunned.

• 45:44Speaker 02

  They feel like they're pariahs. And that, and they said Harvard has to be pluralistic. Harvard has to be inclusive. So in order to correct for antisemitism at Harvard, we have to embrace diversity, embrace everyone. I'm thinking to myself, well, I'm all for being inclusive. I'm all for being pluralistic. I'm all for a big tent, but you know what?

• 46:28Speaker 02

  My big tent does not include child killers. I'm not going there. You lose me.

• 46:37Tucker Carlson?

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• 48:05Tucker Carlson?

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• 48:14Speaker 00

  Now, more than ever, we need someone on our side. But Rob Whitman? Whitman's votes drove up costs, cut Medicaid, and risked 350,000 Virginians' health care to pay for tax breaks for himself and his donors. He's not on our side. Shannon Taylor will fight corruption, cut taxes, and bring down costs. This November, vote for Shannon Taylor. She's for us. Paid for by HMP, the HouseMajorityPac.com. Not authorized by any candidate or candidate's committee.

• 48:45Speaker 02

  After World War II, for all I know, this or that guard in a Nazi concentration camp went back to school

• 48:57Speaker 02

  to get a degree.

• 49:00Speaker 02

  You want me to be inclusive of the people that exterminated my family? I'm not going there. And it's the same thing. You're gonna have to bear that burden. I'm not going to be inclusive of child killers. Israel has become a nation of child killers. They kill children for play. For play. And there's ample, at this point, ample documentation of that, of snipers killing children, of drones killing children. Even in March 2018, during the Great March of Return,

• 49:45Speaker 02

  when the people of Gaza attempted nonviolently to end that medieval siege, the UN report found that Israel was targeting children, journalists, medics. Brace yourself. Targeting double amputees who were 300 meters away from the perimeter fence. That's 2018 before the horror that was unleashed after October 7th. And now you're telling me that I have to be inclusive

• 50:29Speaker 02

  and pluralistic with these child killers? A nation of child killers. To its credit, Israel has a citizen army. And that's how it should be. Because everybody... I noticed two of your producers are tech people. They were in the Marines, they mentioned to me.

• 50:57Speaker 02

  Everybody should have to bear the burden of the ultimate sacrifice to keep their country free of foreign occupation. So in my opinion, that's a correct principle.

• 51:14Speaker 02

  Unlike in my day, during the war in Vietnam, where students got that deferment, college deferment, and so was overwhelmingly a poor army. And then it became an even overwhelmingly more poor army because it was a volunteer army and who volunteers overwhelmingly? Those who don't see a future otherwise. So that's to its credit. But then it becomes to its discredit if the army is committing genocide. Because that army is a cross-section of Israeli society. You can't, as I did

• 51:59Speaker 02

  when I was a young man, think of those who were carrying out the murder and mayhem in Vietnam as having nothing to do with me. You know, we were anti-war. But this is not the Israeli army. The Israeli army is representative of the Israeli Jewish population, with one tiny exception. A representative of the Israeli Jewish population. And so

• 52:29Speaker 02

  they are a nation of child killers. And even Garber admitted, it was about six months ago or a little more. He said, "A large part," I mean, that's his phrase, "a large part of what was called antisemitism," he said. It was just criticism of Israel. He acknowledged it. Now, you might say, "What about slogans like 'From the River to the Sea'?" Okay?

• 53:01Speaker 02

  We're Americans. We're Americans. In the United States, the Supreme Court has ruled it's legal to advocate the violent overthrow of your government. That's our jurisprudence. In our country, it's legal to burn the American flag. That's our jurisprudence. In our country, uh...

• 53:30Speaker 02

  I was going to give my, uh, a couple of other examples, but...

• 53:34Tucker Carlson?

  You can criticize the United States all you want.

• 53:36Speaker 02

  You can criticize, you know... Listen. You can not only criticize it, you can call for its violent overthrow. And you're completely protected by the law. So the slogan "From the River to the Sea" is so pale by comparison. I mean, even in our country, there was a case, a fellow walked into a local, um, uh, courthouse with a T-shirt emblazoned on it, "Fuck the draft." It went to the Supreme Court. They said it's protected speech. So next to our jurisprudence, "From the River to the Sea" is so pale by comparison,

• 54:21Speaker 02

  how could it possibly be illegal to slough, uh, to shout that slogan in the United States? So there was, there was no basis for these claims. The problem is, as I'm sure you understand, the other side doesn't care. Because by the time these cases make their way through the court...

• 54:44Tucker Carlson?

  That's right.

• 54:45Speaker 02

  It's all over. They succeeded in their goal. They silenced all dissent on our college campuses, in our cultural institutions, in our hospitals. They succeeded in their goal. It won't be upheld. I'm confident of that. There have been several rulings, as you know, uh, supporting the dissenters. It won't be upheld. But it already did the damage. It'll be too late once it's undone.

• 55:13Tucker Carlson?

  So you said, um, the president of Harvard later conceded that...

• 55:17Speaker 02

  A law, he called it a large part.

• 55:18Tucker Carlson?

  A large part.

• 55:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 55:20Tucker Carlson?

  Of what some said was antisemitism was merely criticizing...

• 55:23Speaker 02

  That's what he said.

• 55:23Tucker Carlson?

  Criticism of foreign government.

• 55:24Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 55:24Tucker Carlson?

  And that's obviously true. Why would, it seems very short-sighted, in fact, self-destructive to, to equate criticism of a foreign government, a foreign politician, Netanyahu specifically, who's not even that popular within Israel, to say that's the, criticizing him is the same as hating all Jews? Why would anybody make that case? That seems crazy.

• 55:46Speaker 02

  Well, on the one hand, it's to delegitimize all criticism.

• 55:51Tucker Carlson?

  Well, of course.

• 55:52Speaker 02

  Obviously. The other thing is, I mean, I think we have to be honest about these things. Netanyahu is the longest-serving prime minister in Israeli history. Okay? Every few years, or even every few months, you hear, "He's going to be outvoted. He's going to be voted out of office. This is the end, the end, the end." And it never happens. And the reason why, in my opinion, it never happens because Netanyahu is the perfect reflection of Israeli society. He's an obnoxious, self-righteous Jewish supremacist.

• 56:36Speaker 02

  That's Israeli society. Obnoxious, self-righteous Jewish supremacists. So when they see him, they see themselves. And that's why he keeps winning despite all of these corruption allegations and despite all these other attacks on his person. Israelis don't really care.

• 56:59Tucker Carlson?

  Do you go to Israel?

• 57:01Speaker 02

  I, I went there en route to the occupied Palestinian territories at the time.

• 57:11Speaker 02

  I was denied entry in 1989. And then I did get in.

• 57:22Speaker 02

  And then in 20, 2004, I was denied entry again. And I never returned because they don't tell you. I was denied for 10 years. But the governments moved progressively to the right. So I decided it was pointless to fly...

• 57:40Tucker Carlson?

  How could you

• 57:43Tucker Carlson?

  be denied entry into Israel? I thought that all Jews had a right to return. In fact, I thought it was called the right of return.

• 57:51Speaker 02

  I'm not sure on what particular law I was denied entry. There must have been some security exception to the right of return. I never really investigated it. It wasn't important enough to me. I just accepted, acquiesced.

• 58:14Tucker Carlson?

  Huh. Seems a little strange, though, no? Like, you're not Jewish anymore because the government doesn't like you or something? Why did they get to decide?

• 58:25Speaker 02

  I, I, I recognized that they could, they would be displeased with the things I said. So I wasn't altogether shocked. Gradually, I started to deny entry to a lot of Jews. I may have been at the head of the queue.

• 58:38Tucker Carlson?

  Is that true?

• 58:38Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah, there were a large number of Jews who were active in one way or another opposing the occupation, uh, who were denied entry. My recollection is a couple of years later, Professor Chomsky was denied entry. And there were many other, you know, people I know personally who were denied entry. I never considered it particularly significant.

• 59:06Tucker Carlson?

  What has it done to your life here in the United States to take the positions you have?

• 59:10Speaker 02

  Um. I would say, first of all, I'm not Edith Piaf. Je ne regrette rien.

• 59:21Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah, fair, good.

• 59:23Speaker 02

  You know?

• 59:23Tucker Carlson?

  Good.

• 59:24Speaker 02

  I have my regrets, but the overall trajectory, this is what I resolved to do as a young man, probably around the age of 16, not having to do with Israel, Palestine, but fighting for a more just world. And the people who were important in my life as, to use the corny expression, role models, they had committed themselves to the cause. Many of them passed or were killed early in life because of their commitment, and those are the ones who inspired me.

• 1:00:07Speaker 02

  And so I recognized that I would pay a price, and I was prepared to pay it. And in the great scheme of things, I'm now 72 years old. I still have a roof over my head. I'm not wanting for the basics in life. And I lived most of my life of sound body, and I like to believe also of sound mind. So I can't say it's caused me any, by comparison to the people I admired and the suffering

• 1:00:49Speaker 02

  of others, I can't say I've paid a big price. I would say the only frustration, if I can put it that way, is I happen to like to teach. I like the interaction with young people who are old enough to think for themselves, which comes with roughly college age, 18 to 22. And also, they are not yet jaded.

• 1:01:19Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 1:01:19Speaker 02

  Or cynical about the real world. They still have ideals. So it's a wonderful age to interact with and also to teach the excitement of the life of the mind. Ideas. Thinking through problems, not tweets. A tweet is not an argument.

• 1:01:48Tucker Carlson?

  Oh, it's not?

• 1:01:49Speaker 02

  No. An argument is quite complex.

• 1:01:52Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 1:01:54Speaker 02

  It has major premises, minor premises. It's very complicated to work out, and it requires a classroom to do that, and it requires a text to go over together. And so it's really a wondrous experience to be a college professor. It's a responsibility, but it's also an experience. And I was significantly denied that opportunity. I don't take it so much personally, as I think I could have inspired many more young minds, not propagandize them. I'm totally against propaganda in the classroom.

• 1:02:39Speaker 02

  I'm pretty much a stickler about that. Not propagandize them, but trying to convey to them the joys of the life of the mind. And I think I was deprived of that right because of political considerations.

• 1:03:02Tucker Carlson?

  Why are you against propaganda in the classroom?

• 1:03:05Speaker 02

  Because a lectern is not a soapbox. There is a place, if you have political convictions, when you're trying to persuade others of your beliefs. But I don't believe that's the place of a classroom. You're not trying to persuade. You're trying to

• 1:03:37Speaker 02

  get people to think for themselves. And getting people to think for themselves, in my opinion, is making the best arguments on both sides. If the student is decidedly of one political end of the spectrum, to make the best arguments from the other end of the spectrum, and force them to work through an argument and reach a conclusion based on the evidence. I think Bertrand Russell, the great British philosopher, he once said, "There are always

• 1:04:20Speaker 02

  good arguments to be made on both sides."

• 1:04:24Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 1:04:24Speaker 02

  There are always good arguments to be made on both sides. It's rarely the case that, in a major issue of contention, let's say it's abortion or affirmative action, it's rarely the case that all the arguments are on one side and there are no arguments on the other side. There are always arguments on both sides. And then you have to make the best case and let each student decide for him or herself, not who is right and who is wrong. No.

• 1:05:06Speaker 02

  What the student has to do is weigh the arguments on both sides and decide on which side is the preponderance of better arguments. It's never like this.

• 1:05:23Tucker Carlson?

  Right.

• 1:05:23Speaker 02

  The scale. The scale is usually like this.

• 1:05:26Tucker Carlson?

  That's right.

• 1:05:26Speaker 02

  There's always arguments on both sides. You have to weigh the arguments and then decide who has the better case. So.

• 1:05:38Tucker Carlson?

  That's your view?

• 1:05:39Speaker 02

  Yes, it's my view, based on, you know, I read the Supreme Court decisions. I thought, I know this will sound like sacrilege, I thought Plessy versus Ferguson, which legalized separate but equal in our country, was a much better argument than Brown, the

• 1:06:03Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 1:06:04Speaker 02

  54 decision that ended separate but equal. Brown wasn't even really a court decision. It was an administrative decree. It was so poorly done, and they call it, liberals like to call it, "The Mona Lisa of Supreme Court decisions." No, it was very poorly done. The abortion, the Roe case, is, in my opinion, it's a complete disaster. It's a disaster for very obvious reason, for anybody who reads it.

• 1:06:42Speaker 02

  The Roe says, "A woman has a right to do with her body as she pleases until another life enters the picture," or what they call "potential life." So they say, "Of course, a woman has the right to do with her body as she pleases." That's protected by the 14th Amendment, the due process clause of our Constitution, liberty, the liberty, they sometimes call it the liberty clause. And this is a personal right that falls under the liberty clause of the Constitution,

• 1:07:25Speaker 02

  but it says, "You have to take into account when a potential life enters the picture." So obviously, the question is, when does the potential life

• 1:07:41Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 1:07:41Speaker 02

  enter the picture? Is it at conception? Is it at

• 1:07:46Tucker Carlson?

  viability?

• 1:07:48Speaker 02

  Yeah. Right. When does it enter the picture? The court says

• 1:07:54Speaker 02

  Physicians disagree, theologians disagree, doctors disagree, philosophers disagree. The court says, "We can't take a position. We don't know when it is." Because nobody knows when life begins. Well, we have a problem here.

• 1:08:14Speaker 00

  Now, more than ever, we need someone on our side. But Rob Whitman? Whitman's votes drove up costs, cut Medicaid, and risked 350,000 Virginians' health care to pay for tax breaks for himself and his donors. He's not on our side. Shannon Taylor will fight corruption, cut taxes, and bring down costs. This November, vote for Shannon Taylor. She's for us. Paid for by HMP, the HouseMajorityPac.com. Not authorized by any candidate or candidate's committee.

• 1:08:44Speaker 02

  If nobody knows when life begins, but if it's a potential life or a real life, then you lose your right to abortion. How do you decide? How do you decide when a woman has the right, you know, to her body? And when the state has the right to interfere? You said you don't know when life begins. So they say, "We'll decide its viability." When the fetus can survive on its own outside the mother's body. But that's a technical question. It just means when machines can keep the fetus

• 1:09:29Speaker 02

  alive. Doesn't tell you when life begins.

• 1:09:32Tucker Carlson?

  No.

• 1:09:33Speaker 02

  So, the whole Roe case was so poorly argued. And you could see, and I go over it with the class, and by the end, there's probably a large amount of agreement that it should be viability, but there is a recognition that as a legal issue, it's a disaster. And so it was pretty easily overturned. And I would say the Baki case, the affirmative action case, I thought that was pretty well argued. I grant that. But it's also, it was a very complicated case. I'm not going to go into now how it was finally decided.

• 1:10:17Speaker 02

  But in general, as a general principle, I believe that one of my important responsibilities as a professor, to the extent I was able to practice my profession, is to show students that there are always arguments to be made on the other side.

• 1:10:39Tucker Carlson?

  So I think we have different politics, or I thought we did, but I would be thrilled to have you teach my children if the attitudes you just explained are your attitudes in the classroom.

• 1:10:46Speaker 02

  I think it is. Now, I will tell you something. Except, I believe, for two classes, when I was at the Paul University, which eventually denied me tenure, I was never allowed to teach the Israel-Palestine conflict.

• 1:11:01Tucker Carlson?

  What?

• 1:11:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, I was never allowed to teach it.

• 1:11:04Tucker Carlson?

  Why?

• 1:11:08Speaker 02

  I think that's pretty obvious. I was at Brooklyn College, Hunter College, those are City University of New York. The Paul, I recall, there were two senior seminars where I taught the Israel-Palestine conflict. Then I was unemployed from 2007 to about 2020. I had no work, a long period of my life.

• 1:11:32Tucker Carlson?

  You were totally unemployed?

• 1:11:33Speaker 02

  Totally unemployed.

• 1:11:34Tucker Carlson?

  13 years?

• 1:11:34Speaker 02

  Yes. It was a dark period for me because most people, their structure in life is determined externally.

• 1:11:48Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 1:11:49Speaker 02

  I have a job, have to get up.

• 1:11:50Tucker Carlson?

  Exactly.

• 1:11:51Speaker 02

  Have to go to work. And I had to, every morning, wake up and try to rationalize a purpose to my existence. I know it's not easy.

• 1:12:05Tucker Carlson?

  How did you not go crazy?

• 1:12:07Speaker 02

  Uh, you want to know the truth? I've forgotten those years.

• 1:12:13Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:13Speaker 02

  I've forgotten those years. But I will say they were a dark period. And then I was doing some adjuncting, that's a substitute teacher for those of you who aren't in the academic world. And at Hunter College, again, they let me go. And then recently at Brooklyn College. So, it was scattered. It was very demeaning.

• 1:12:48Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:49Speaker 02

  You know? You know what? An adjunct, allow me to explain to your viewers, is usually graduate students, who they hire at the last minute to fill a class because a professor got a grant, this had a family tragedy. So you hire, and it's usually a graduate student. And I am very far from a graduate student in just physical years. And to be an adjunct and to be treated, I know I shouldn't say this, but I don't much care.

• 1:13:30Speaker 02

  At Brooklyn College, this last semester, I hadn't been paid. I get paid pittance. Pittance. They didn't pay me for six weeks. I was so incensed, so enraged, treated like garbage. So it was a very humanly demeaning position for a person. Let's leave aside my quote-unquote academic

• 1:14:11Speaker 02

  achievements, just my age to be an adjunct. No.

• 1:14:18Tucker Carlson?

  Well, you're also, not to be vulgar about it, but the most famous person at Brooklyn College by a lot.

• 1:14:23Speaker 02

  Uh, I'd rather not say that. It's for others to say.

• 1:14:26Tucker Carlson?

  Well, that's my characterization. You're certainly, I don't know if anyone else at Brooklyn College is more famous than you are. How did that happen? I mean, can you get specific? One, the DePaul case about 20 years ago was relatively well-covered, not as much as it should have been, but basically, the department and then the college voted to give you tenure pretty overwhelmingly, and then a bunch of outside forces, including donors and Alan Jurschewitz, intervened, and the university, the president, if I'm remembering this correctly, denied you tenure. Is that correct?

• 1:15:02Speaker 02

  Um, I think the final decision was made by the president, Father Holt Schneider, I believe. I'm not sure in the allocation of responsibility, who makes that last decision. That, too, is kind of a blur in my life. It was not, the last year was really pretty terrible.

• 1:15:27Tucker Carlson?

  Do you have any idea, in specific terms, how you were prevented from being a college professor?

• 1:15:36Speaker 02

  Um, remember, we're living in very different times now. Israel's on the defensive, and those who are supporting the rights of Palestinians and opposing the various Israeli aggressions, they are on the offensive. When I first got involved in the conflict, which was in June 1982, when Israel invaded Lebanon, we're talking about a handful of, I think it's fair to say, you know the Yiddish expression, a meshugah?

• 1:16:10Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:11Speaker 02

  Crazy.

• 1:16:11Tucker Carlson?

  Crazy people, yeah.

• 1:16:12Speaker 02

  A handful of Jewish meshugah opposed Israel's actions. The only notable exception was Professor Chomsky, who sort of gave stature to our cause. But it was just a handful of people. And early on, I had written my doctoral dissertation on the theory of Zionism. And while writing the doctoral dissertation, there was a book that came out way before your time. It was called From Time Immemorial. And the major thesis of the book was that Palestine was empty.

• 1:16:56Speaker 02

  The Jews came, made it flourish, and then all these Arabs from neighboring states infiltrated into Palestine and pretended to be indigenous to it. The book became an instant national bestseller. It was endorsed by the who's who of the American intelligentsia, which largely consisted of Jews at that period. We're talking about 1984, 83. And the book was a sensation. It was a national sensation because now we've proven that this whole thing about Palestine has been

• 1:17:39Speaker 02

  contrived by antisemites in order to discredit the Jews and so forth. I sat down and I read the book.

• 1:17:55Speaker 02

  Or I should also say, the book was certified for its accuracy by a fellow named Philip Hauser, who was the head of Population Studies at the University of Chicago, which is an imposing title. Definitely. Yes. I sat down, I worked at that point, a part-time job. I was writing my doctoral dissertation. I came home every night. A lot of it was demographics, numbers, tables, numbers, tables. I would sit at home and take out my pad and paper. I didn't use calculators.

• 1:18:36Speaker 02

  And I'm flipping the pages. The tables are in the back. The text is in the middle, going back and forth, back and forth. I'm going to figure this out. I'm going to figure this out. And then, one night, I discover one key number, one key number in the tables was fake, was a fake. It was a eureka moment, a eureka moment. Chills down my spine.

• 1:19:14Speaker 02

  I lived in this tiny studio apartment, like Raskolnikov. And I'm pacing the apartment back and forth, back and forth. I'm saying, I did it. I did it. I did it. I was just overwhelmed. It was like one o'clock in the morning. Who can I call? Who can I tell? Well, I'm Jewish. I called my mother.

• 1:19:56Speaker 02

  I said, Mom, I did it. I did it. It was one in the morning and she said, Norman, I'm so happy for you. What did you do? Now, there was no way I can explain to her how I proved that this is a demographic fraud. In any case, then it became a real battle because I had the goods. As they say nowadays, I had the receipts. And that was going to mean, I was just a graduate student. And all of these experts had lent their name to the book.

• 1:20:38Speaker 02

  All of these authorities, these Saul Bellow, Elie Wiesel, Barbara Tuchman, Lucy de Witte, which they don't mean anything to yours. They do. Yeah, well, they were very big names. And so, I remember I sent out my findings to several, around 20, prominent people who support the rights of Palestinians. You know, it was a different era. You type it up. You have to Xerox it. You send it in the mail. Most of these people, they're not going to give the time of day to a graduate student.

• 1:21:19Speaker 02

  They get too many other pieces of correspondence from important people. And one Saturday morning, I got a call. And the call was, hello, is this Norman Finkelstein? I said, yes. And the person then said, this is Noam Chomsky. I have read what you wrote and I found it convincing. And that was the beginning of a whole new chapter in my life. He became a friend, a close friend, and most importantly, a mentor.

• 1:22:02Speaker 02

  But he warned me on the very first correspondence. He said, be aware that if you continue on this path, there will be many brickbats coming your way. Honestly, I am not a saint. I am very far from a saint. As Gandhi would often say, I have 10,000 faults. And I do, and I will never pretend otherwise.

• 1:22:41Speaker 02

  But of one thing I can say with a certain amount of conviction, I cannot be bought. And I attach a lot to truth. I attach a lot to justice. And I don't, I'm not open to compromising those values. So with all due regard to my mentor, the great Noam Chomsky, it was not a tough decision at all to pursue it.

• 1:23:25Speaker 02

  His wife, Carol, who I, his first wife, who I was close to, we were family friends. She would occasionally say that she was, and she liked me. You know, she, she sympathized with my situation. She would occasionally say, I'm angry at Noam that he didn't discourage you. Because I paid, you know, relatives, I paid some price, okay? And I would say, no, Carol, you're wrong. He did warn me.

• 1:24:07Speaker 02

  But there was no way I wouldn't persist. At the beginning, I went, I was called up by Robert Silvers. I'm not sure if that name means anything to you. He was the editor of the New York Review of Books. And the New York Review of Books was by a wide margin, the most influential journal among the intelligentsia. Yes. Okay? And he called me down to his office. A door was opening, a big door, you know?

• 1:24:48Speaker 02

  I was so excited. My heart was palpating. And he said to come down in like two hours. It wasn't an appointment in the future. I had to, I had to calm down. So I went out for a run. Okay? It was in Washington Heights, the bodegas with the aluminum awnings. If you remember what they look like. Yeah. And I ran on the one and I cut a gash in my skull from here to here. Oh, come on.

• 1:25:28Speaker 02

  I swear. I cut a gash, a long gash, and it started to bleed. I'm not going to miss this appointment. I'm not going to miss it. This is it, my chance in life, you know? Like they say in Britain's Got Talent, Simon Cowell says, this is those, these three minutes might change your life. I stopped the bleeding. I went. And he told me to meet his friend, a fellow named Arthur Bur, Rabbi Berger. No, Rabbi Hertzberg, Arthur Hertzberg, who was a rabbi and an academic at Columbia.

• 1:26:13Speaker 02

  I go down to meet Hertzberg. And he says, we Zionists. I'm thinking, so where did that we come from? We Zion, like me and him? And then he said, he'll be my dissertation advisor. I said, no, I'm at Princeton. You're at Columbia. He said, I'll take care of that.

• 1:26:42Speaker 02

  And then he asked me a question. He said, I'm quoting now, a long time ago, 1984, but I remember. He said, are you in Chomsky's stable? I didn't know what that expression meant, but I said, I've got the idea. And I know, you know, it's what you call the do or die moment. I knew if I said, yes, the door was going to shut in my face.

• 1:27:20Speaker 02

  But there was no way on God's earth that I was going to say, no, that's not going to happen. And I said, I consider him my mentor and a friend.

• 1:27:40Speaker 00

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• 1:28:11Speaker 02

  It was the last time I ever heard from the New York Review of Books. So to answer your question, to answer your question, everybody knows those moments where you know the door may open or it may shut in your face.

• 1:28:33Tucker Carlson?

  Oh, yes.

• 1:28:34Speaker 02

  And everybody faces those moments in life. It's called life. And the doors kept shutting. And I tell you, I was bitter because I liked to teach. I was bitter because it was so demeaning. I remember once at Harper, at Hunter College, I was mimeographing some papers for the class at that time, long before, to your viewers, long before electronic, you know,

• 1:29:18Speaker 02

  send a syllabus and everything through electronic, through electronic technology. And one of the professors came into the offices at night. He said, what are you doing here? I said, well, I'm an adjunct. I'm just Xeroxing some stuff for the class. She called security on me. You know, I was already in my 50s.

• 1:29:44Tucker Carlson?

  No. And, and just for the, just to establish for viewers who may not know, you were at Princeton. Where were you educated?

• 1:29:52Speaker 02

  Undergrad, I went to Binghamton University, then Princeton. And then I studied at the Eco Parti des Soliditude in Paris. That was my three periods of education. Otherwise, I've basically been home. Um, so that's the story. And, uh,

• 1:30:12Tucker Carlson?

  Are you bitter about it now?

• 1:30:14Speaker 02

  Uh, now I laugh. You wouldn't know I laugh now. I know it's, it's not a bitter laugh, but let's say, I wrote the only scholarly book, the only scholarly book on Gaza's political history, the only one. Sarah Roy of Harvard University, she wrote the only scholarly economic history of Gaza. Excellent book. Okay. I wrote the only political history. I came out in 2018. Okay. It's still the only one. Not reviewed anywhere. Nowhere. Never mentioned. You know how sometimes newspapers like the New York Times, when a event becomes

• 1:30:59Speaker 02

  front page news, they'll have a little list of books you should read, you know, background books. Never mentioned. Never mentioned. You know? So now I laugh.

• 1:31:12Tucker Carlson?

  So Gaza's gravediggers, which you've written, um, how do you expect that to be received?

• 1:31:20Speaker 02

  No, it's a question mark. Because of the social media, it's very hard to pretend I don't exist.

• 1:31:29Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 1:31:29Speaker 02

  It's a, it's, it's a challenge. Places like New Yorker magazine, no possibility. Atlantic magazine, no possibility. Maybe the Times will do a hit job. It's possible. But in general, I'm pessimistic. But on the other hand, there is the, I think what they call the alternative media has now sort of become the mainstream media. And the mainstream media has become the alternative media. Um, so, uh, I think there are, there are prospects.

• 1:32:09Speaker 02

  It's a, um, I think it's a good book. It's not an easy book, but I believe it's a good book. And, uh, I do think, I do a kind of research that nobody does. You know, uh, the philosopher John Stuart Mill, he once said, the more valuable you become to yourself, the more valuable you become to others. Which is another way of saying, the more you hone your God given gift, and I believe I'm old fashioned. I believe everybody has a God given gift.

• 1:32:54Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 1:32:55Speaker 02

  And it's, most people, they go through life. It's latent.

• 1:33:02Tucker Carlson?

  Yes, I strongly agree.

• 1:33:04Speaker 02

  The opportunity to discover.

• 1:33:07Tucker Carlson?

  They never find out what it is.

• 1:33:08Speaker 02

  They never find out what it is. And some who do find out, never find the time or resources.

• 1:33:14Tucker Carlson?

  They can't apply it.

• 1:33:15Speaker 02

  To, to apply it. So I have a skill. It's a small skill. It's an attention to detail. It's checking every footnote. It's applying my mind where I think something is implausible to finding the errors in the argument. The great advantage that truth has over falsehood is this. Truth holds together. Because it's true.

• 1:33:55Speaker 02

  Falsehood, if you apply your eye in a conscientious, almost maniacal way, and it requires a certain amount of fanaticism. You can prove it's false because at the end of the day, it doesn't hold together. And that's been kind of my life's, I won't say vocation. It's my gift. It's not a big gift.

• 1:34:37Speaker 02

  But what I like to say is, what I do is not much. I acknowledge that. But what I do, I do well. I can take any text which is implausible at first glance, pragmatis, implausible. I can put my eye to it, page by page, sentence by sentence. And I can demonstrate this is not true.

• 1:35:19Speaker 02

  And that's what I largely do in this book. For example, one example that will be familiar to your listeners. There is no question that atrocities of a significant magnitude were committed by Hamas and other militant groups on October 7th.

• 1:35:42Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 1:35:43Speaker 02

  And I am not a denier of any sort of atrocity. So far as the evidence shows as of now, um, it happened. But then there were claims made, as all of your listeners know, that Hamas had weaponized rape and sexual violence.

• 1:36:08Speaker 02

  I found that for reasons not worth going into right now, I found that implausible. And then I started to go through the evidence. And there is no material evidence to support that claim.

• 1:36:26Speaker 02

  I devote the first chapter of the new book, God is Gravediggers, the chapter is called Rape Fantasies. I go through all the alleged evidence. And I find it not only non persuasive, I find the evidence non existent. So

• 1:36:49Tucker Carlson?

  This is totally made up?

• 1:36:50Speaker 02

  Yes, yes, I have to be careful about my words. You asked me the question, is it totally made up? I would say the evidence, based on the evidence that's been adduced.

• 1:37:05Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 1:37:05Speaker 02

  It's totally made up. So let's give you one example. And then you judge for yourself, assuming what I'm telling you now was true, is accurate. Okay.

• 1:37:17Speaker 02

  After my book came out, this very

• 1:37:19Tucker Carlson?

  I should, I'm sorry, the claim has been widespread. I mean, widespread, you hear it everywhere.

• 1:37:23Speaker 02

  Right, and I'll get to that, just remind me as I continue, remind me of the name Sheryl Sandberg, which I'll get to if you remind me.

• 1:37:31Tucker Carlson?

  I know Sheryl Sandberg.

• 1:37:32Speaker 02

  Okay, good. So let's take, after my book came out, this new Israeli report was published by what they call a civil commission. And the main, the main author of the report is somebody named Dr. Kochov. I forgot Levy, her last name, it'll come back to me. So here's what she says, okay? She says Hamas committed widespread rape on October 7th. Widespread systematic sexual violence on October 7th. You're familiar with those claims, of course, as are, as is your viewers.

• 1:38:17Speaker 02

  And then she said that Hamas had weaponized this sexual violence, including rape and gang rape, in order to shatter the Israeli national esprit, spirit. So it posted all of these acts of rape and sexual violence on the social media. Even contacted the families of the victims using their own cell phones, the family cell phones, which they seized and so forth, iPhones. And disseminate all this evidence.

• 1:39:01Speaker 02

  Okay, that's an interesting claim. So what do you discover? I hope your viewers are all ears. They say that they have 10,000, 10,000 photographs and digital segments of what happened on October 7th, 10,000.

• 1:39:30Speaker 02

  They also say that if you were to view it, it would take 1,800 hours to view all of their photographic and digital evidence. It would take 1,800 hours. That means if you're a single researcher and you go through this evidence, it would take you, and you did eight hours a day, eight hours a day, every day of the week. It would take you more than seven months to go through all of the photographic and digital evidence of October 7th.

• 1:40:16Speaker 02

  Now here is the kicker. There isn't one single image, one single frame of Hamas committing rape or sexual violence on October 7th. How can that be? How is that possible? Not one image. They say Hamas was posting

• 1:40:45Speaker 02

  the images of sexual violence in order to demoralize, shatter the national spirit. They said, we have Hamas, excuse me, we have Hamas dash cams. We have Hamas body cams. We have Hamas GoPros. We have it. They said, we have extensive

• 1:41:12Speaker 02

  images from Hamas.

• 1:41:16Speaker 02

  But none of those images show sexual violence or rape.

• 1:41:21Speaker 02

  There has not been one image, not one, put forth by Israel. And Amnesty International said, nobody even claims they have such an image.

• 1:41:36Speaker 02

  How is that possible?

• 1:41:40Speaker 02

  By their, I should also add, they have CCTV imagery, digital evidence. They have traffic camera evidence. They have iPhone evidence from October 7th. There's no evidence, there's no image.

• 1:42:02Speaker 02

  How can that be? How is that possible?

• 1:42:06Speaker 02

  So the only, they have no physical evidence. Now, part of it seemed plausible to me. They said, we have no forensic evidence because they weren't prepared for a massacre of the magnitude of October 7th. So they processed the bodies very quickly to prepare them for Jewish burial, not ritual burial. And they didn't preserve any, or they didn't preserve significant forensic evidence. That seemed plausible to me. But no digital evidence?

• 1:42:38Speaker 02

  That didn't sound right. That didn't even sound, not only didn't sound plausible, it didn't sound possible. The only thing they have is witnesses. So they have this witness. She says, I was sitting in a little room, I was hidden.

• 1:43:03Speaker 02

  The room was sealed, they call a caravan, a caravan, the room was sealed, a vehicular

• 1:43:12Speaker 02

  hiding place. She said, sitting in the room, I heard, this is her words, I'm quoting her. I heard a gang rape here, I heard a rape here, and I heard another rape there.

• 1:43:32Speaker 02

  Then she starts giving more details of these rapes. How is that possible? She heard in the loo, a rape here, a rape, she said, here, here, and here. There, there, and there. That's their best evidence.

• 1:43:49Tucker Carlson?

  Did she identify the victims of these rapes?

• 1:43:53Speaker 02

  She was sealed in the room, there were no windows.

• 1:43:58Speaker 02

  There was no windows. You know, you have to ask her, did she hear the Vienna Boys Choir here? And Boston Pops here? And the Beatles reunion there? It was like completely, and that was their, that was their star witness. If you look at the current report, I mentioned to you, the 300 page report.

• 1:44:23Speaker 02

  She's listed first. Of the survivors, there are two alleged survivors, one of October 7th, one a hostage survivor. But if you look at the report, neither of them said they were raped.

• 1:44:42Speaker 02

  They did not read what they said. The woman hostage survivor, she became quite prominent. Anat Susanna. She said, something terrible was done to me. Maybe, I'm not going to dispute that. Something awful was done to me, but she never said she was raped. She does not. There is a claim by a male that he was raped on October 7th. When you read his testimony to the so-called civil commission, there's no, he doesn't say he was raped.

• 1:45:25Speaker 02

  So we're stuck with the following problem. No forensic evidence, no digital evidence, no photographic evidence. And of the survivor testimony, the one survivor from October 7th, who's touted as a victim of rape, he doesn't say he was raped. The one survivor of hostages, Anat Susanna, she doesn't say she was raped. I tell you, you know, at my age, the memory can slip.

• 1:46:06Speaker 02

  The name, the author of the report is Dr. Kochav El Khayyam Levy. She's the author. And I want to say, look, your program has reach, obviously. It's not BGT. Neither three minutes nor three hours are going to change my life because my life is over. It's in the past, but it has reach. So I say, you disagree with me, Dr. El Khayyam Levy? Let's debate it. Let's go to a public venue and debate it.

• 1:46:50Speaker 02

  I say the same thing to Sheryl Sandberg. Now.

• 1:46:56Tucker Carlson?

  Of Facebook?

• 1:46:57Speaker 02

  Sheryl Sandberg was the Met Meta.

• 1:47:02Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 1:47:02Speaker 02

  COO, Chief Operating Officer. And she's a bright woman, no question about it. I never deny people, I can loathe them, but I never deny people their achievements. She attended Harvard. She was an economics major. She was the top student in her economics class for her year. That's a significant achievement. Now, she makes a film, a documentary, she calls it. It's called Screams Before Silence. And it's claims that there was mass systematic rape

• 1:47:44Speaker 02

  and sexual violence on October 7th committed by Hamas. Systematic widespread sexual violence. And she stars in the film and she emotes. And she's in tears and she's going, oh my God. She's looking at these images of sexual violence and rape on an iPhone. But Sheryl, I hope you're listening. You're a bright woman. But excuse my English, you're full of shit.

• 1:48:27Speaker 02

  There were no images. There was one image, but the independent, or they quote forensic specialist, whatever they're called. They said, you couldn't tell anything from those images. Screams Before Silence should be called Shalak Before Shice. Your listeners can go to their.

• 1:49:03Tucker Carlson?

  Get a dictionary to find out, yeah.

• 1:49:05Speaker 02

  You know, Shalak Before Shice. These are Jewish supremacists who have no regard whatever for facts. Because for them, it's the cause. And the cause is more important than any passing fact. She attended Harvard. She was in the economics department. She knows what evidence is. She knows what evidentiary standards are. It's the cause.

• 1:49:48Speaker 02

  Israel must live.

• 1:49:53Tucker Carlson?

  So last question pertains to what you just said. Outside the United States, I think it's very, there's a consensus globally, pretty much, that what Israel is doing is totally indefensible. These are crimes. But the question is, will there ever be a reckoning? So your parents were Poles and were both put in Nazi camps, including Auschwitz. And your family was murdered. But there was a reckoning, a reckoning. I mean, some of the people who committed those crimes were held to account. Will that happen in this case?

• 1:50:27Speaker 02

  Well, let's start from basics. When the whole society is implicated in a genocide, apart from a few senior figures, it's impossible for there to be a reckoning. That's why places like South Africa pioneered the idea of a truth and reconciliation committee, commission. Because if you're going to prosecute everybody implicated in apartheid, it's a large portion of society. So as a general rule, even in the best of cases,

• 1:51:10Speaker 02

  it's only a handful of people who are going to be held accountable. In the case of Israel, nobody will ever be held accountable. That, for, that to me is pretty transparent.

• 1:51:24Tucker Carlson?

  Why?

• 1:51:25Speaker 02

  Well, because first of all, the United States won't allow it to happen. Part of it, as you know, is the domino effect. If they're held accountable, Trump is in a very, first of all, Biden and Blinken are in a very difficult situation because they enabled the genocide. If it weren't for Joe Biden and Tony Blinken, there couldn't have been a genocide in Gaza. It was funny, the New Yorker magazine wrote this article, I believe it was the New Yorker, in which it, this is very recent,

• 1:52:08Speaker 02

  in which it claimed that, it was written by a fellow Fitzpatrick, his name just, I think it was David Fitzpatrick, a former Times reporter. And he said, oh, they tried so hard. They tried so hard. They couldn't do anything, you know, meaning Biden, Blinken and the others, Jake Sullivan, to prevent a genocide. And then in the course of the article, they have a line that reads, 70% of the weapons for the Gaza genocide came from the United States. You certainly had one option.

• 1:52:47Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah, don't send the weapons.

• 1:52:49Speaker 02

  Supply the weapons. So there's always the fear of the domino effect.

• 1:52:56Tucker Carlson?

  Right.

• 1:52:56Speaker 02

  If Israelis are indicted, where does that leave the Biden administration? So that makes it improbable that's going to happen. Same thing with Donald Trump. Because the attack on Iran was the most brazen, flagrant aggression in the modern history. There's not been, to my knowledge, no, my knowledge is not unlimited.

• 1:53:35Speaker 02

  To my knowledge, there's never been a case in the modern world of a state attacking without a pretense of a pretext, a pretense. Even Hitler in 1939, when he attacked Poland, he fabricated a border incident.

• 1:53:53Tucker Carlson?

  Of course.

• 1:53:54Speaker 02

  You always have to claim self-defense.

• 1:53:56Tucker Carlson?

  You've got a Gulf Tonkin in it.

• 1:53:58Speaker 02

  I was just gonna say, you beat me to the draw. In 1964, the US had to essentially fabricate, or LBJ, Lyndon Johnson, the president, fabricate the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution in order to, for those of you who don't go back that far, and luckily for you, if you don't, in, I believe it was August 1964, the claim was made that a North Vietnamese vessel attacked an American vessel.

• 1:54:38Speaker 02

  And that was then, there were only two senators who voted against it, it was Ernst Groening, and I forgot the second. And that became the piece of legislation that enabled the ground war in Vietnam. The US was already heavily involved during the Kennedy years, but it enabled the ground war in Vietnam. In the case of Israel and the US, there wasn't a pretense. There wasn't a pretense of pretext. It was the most brazen, flagrant breach of the UN Charter in modern history.

• 1:55:20Tucker Carlson?

  In the middle of a negotiation.

• 1:55:22Speaker 02

  In the middle of a negotiation. See, I was listening to your interview with Daryl Cooper, and that was emphasized, in the middle of a negotiation.

• 1:55:31Tucker Carlson?

  That's so dishonorable.

• 1:55:32Speaker 02

  It was outrageous. But you know what's also dishonorable and outrageous? There was no reaction by the UN Security Council. Nothing. Nothing. You could hear a pin drop in the silence. You know what else was dishonorable? On November 17th, 2025, the UN Security Council passed Resolution 2803. And you know what that resolution did? Amidst all the horror that the godforsaken people of Gaza have endured since back in

• 1:56:16Speaker 02

  1948, the concentration camp in which they had been emured for 80 years, after the genocide over the past three years, the UN Security Council, I know this will sound like hyperbole, exaggeration, the UN Security Council handed the deed of Gaza to Donald J. Trump. He got the deed to Gaza. He was designated the head of the Board of Peace.

• 1:57:00Speaker 02

  He was subsequently given total veto power over any decision made by the Board of Peace. And the UN Security Council only put one condition, one, every six months, the Board of Peace should, not has to, should report to the Security Council on the situation in Gaza. He owns Gaza. He owns Gaza. So there have been many shameless episodes.

• 1:57:40Speaker 02

  And in fact, that's what the purpose of my new book is, to preserve for future generations, assuming there will be future generations. And as you discussed with Daryl Cooper, there are all sorts of apocalyptic scenarios that are plausible in the case of the current aggression against Iran. But assuming, and those, by the way, they are plausible, I've written about them.

• 1:58:21Tucker Carlson?

  Oh, it's definitely plausible.

• 1:58:22Speaker 02

  It's plausible. There are two crazy people with the helm.

• 1:58:26Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 1:58:27Speaker 02

  One in Tel Aviv and one in the Oval Office.

• 1:58:30Tucker Carlson?

  That's correct.

• 1:58:31Speaker 02

  And it's absolutely impossible what, to predict what they might do. But assuming the worst doesn't come to the worst, what I've written is to preserve the record of that infamy of what has been done to the people of Gaza, but with the recognition that unlikely anyone is going to be held legally accountable for what was done to those godforsaken people.

• 1:59:15Tucker Carlson?

  Sad. Well, in the absence of that, I'm glad you wrote this, and I'm grateful that you took the time for this conversation.

• 1:59:21Speaker 02

  Well, thank you so much.

• 1:59:22Tucker Carlson?

  And I hope that you are vindicated.

• 1:59:24Speaker 02

  I don't need that.

• 1:59:25Tucker Carlson?

  Broadly. Well, I hope so. You don't seem to care.

• 1:59:28Speaker 02

  No. Too late in the day.

• 1:59:30Tucker Carlson?

  Thank you. I'm gonna take a seat.

• 1:59:32Speaker 02

  Thank you.