Kimora Lee They Called Me a B*tch. I Built an Empire Anyway

Emma sits down with Kimora Lee – fashion icon, entrepreneur, and founder — to talk about building one of the most influential brands in fashion and the lessons she learned about power, ownership, and knowing her worth. Kimora helped build Baby Phat into a cultural phenomenon, but behind the success were hard truths about being in rooms, contributing at the highest level, and still not getting what she was owed. Over time, she learned how to navigate deals, advocate for herself, and stop accepting less than she deserved. Now she has Baby Phat back and this time, it's hers. Kimora shares: Why being in the room didn't always mean having power The hard lessons she learned about money, deals and ownership What she wishes she'd known before she signed anything How she learned to stop settling and start advocating for herself Why getting Baby Phat back means more now than it did the first time. Where do you need to stop settling and start taking your place? Drop it in the comments — we're reading. And subscribe to Aspire with Emma Grede so you don't miss what's next.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:09Emma Grede?

  Today on Aspire, I'm sitting down with the Kimora Lee Simmons. And our conversation is about what it really takes to build something that's yours and keep it. We get into what it was really like not being in the rooms where the decisions were being made and having to fight for your position constantly. And then realising how much of the game is just simply getting a seat at the table and having something of your own to bring to it. She opens up about being told that her ex-husband's success was the same as hers. The moment she questioned if she could actually stand on her own. And the double standards that she consistently faced trying to play the same game as men. We also talk about knowing what you will and won't tolerate.

• 0:51Emma Grede?

  Not being afraid to start over and why your mistakes don't define you, but your decisions really do. Kimora, as you expect, is blunt, honest and unapologetic. And yes, she has the receipts. So if you're building something big or stepping into your power, this episode is exactly what you need.

• 1:14Emma Grede?

  The Start With Yourself Tour kicks off on April 15th in New York City. Tickets are on sale now at emma greed.com.

• 1:25Emma Grede?

  Kimora, welcome to Aspire. Thank you. Thank you for having me. I am so happy to have you. I'm happy to. It's just like a little magic. Finally, a little piece of magic to have you sitting across from here. I've wanted to speak to you for the longest time. I feel like we have, but not in this format. It feels long overdue. And I tell you what, the reason that I have wanted you here is because I feel like I have looked at you and watched you and mapped your career and your business and your life and your trajectory for the longest time. And Emma mapping. Literally, and Emma mapping. I didn't even need the research. I was like, it's okay. I know everything that I want to ask her. I think what makes you so iconic is that you have had so many firsts in your life.

• 2:08Emma Grede?

  One of the first women of colour that was working on the runways and walking the runways in Paris. I think about you as one of the first women of colour that I knew that was running a really giant business. And I wonder actually what those firsts mean to you today. Oh, that's a good question, Emma.

• 2:28Speaker 01

  I'm gonna be full of good questions.

• 2:29Emma Grede?

  Okay.

• 2:30Speaker 01

  Just wait. When I think back to some of my firsts, they were iconic moments. But I did not know that at the time. I thought I was just a busy little bee, doing what I do, creating and creating something I love and doing it because of fashion, that was the timing of it, again and again and again. And everything was always subject to this idea of critics. Everything was subject to like a review or somebody, you know, writing something or what they thought, or a write-up in Vogue. And so I just know to put my head down and do the work, do what comes naturally, do what you love, do what you feel is missing, but don't really worry about the after effect.

• 3:12Speaker 01

  So I think today, I think of some of these moments as iconic, like, wow, I really did that.

• 3:17Emma Grede?

  I wonder, when you've had so many of those firsts, like, what gets you up and out of bed now? Like, what propels you forward and makes you excited after you've had so many of these, like, big peak moments?

• 3:30Speaker 01

  Well, I think when you're doing the big peak moments, you probably don't realize you're doing... For yourself, you realize that you... Obviously, you know that. You realize you're doing something big for yourself at any given moment, right? But then you kind of pass the moment, and then it was like a big deal, or an iconic moment, or a first. And then the moment kind of passes. It always stays a first for you, but other people come and go, and there's many iterations of that, or you might be like, I did that, I thought of that. So I think it's always kind of a continuum. And I think now, what propels me is really my kids and my family. And that's always been there. I've been on the runway with my kids. I was one of the first designers to come out and take a bow with my kids. Nobody was doing that then. Nobody had their little kids or toddlers or their baby.

• 4:13Speaker 01

  Nobody even came out with like this baby fat, their literal baby fat. No one showed that. I had my life and my family, and things have always changed, and people come and go. I always say this, but your kids and your family, that element is a constant. And so I think now, when I get up and I go to work and I think things, and things are tough, or you don't really want to do it, you always think of them.

• 4:35Emma Grede?

  Yeah, no doubt. You've done so many things and so many of these firsts. And when I look back, it's like, one second, you built a business, you sold a business, you bought the business back. When you look back at your journey, like, I wonder, do you have any regrets? Do you have any moments where you thought, oh, my goodness, like, I wish this had been so different?

• 4:57Speaker 01

  Oh my gosh, I have tons of regrets.

• 5:00Emma Grede?

  Thank you for being honest about that.

• 5:02Speaker 01

  I think nobody knows they're called regrets, but I think that's probably why you look, if you see me now and I'm out talking about things, sometimes it'll come out like, and another thing, or you know, and I want to say this, or and I'm tired of holding this in. Like, I have tons and tons of regrets, but those are my life. Those ended up being my life. Like, I regret, you know, it could be something like, when I was doing, so long ago, decades ago, I've been doing this for 30 years, just a side of it, talking about fashion, talking about retail business of clothes. If you're talking about modeling, I started at probably 10 in St. Louis and 13 in Paris. I'm a long, long time. But just this idea of fashion, I think back sometimes, and probably some of the things I don't love

• 5:47Speaker 01

  are some of the things that are great, you know, things I wish I hadn't have gotten into bed with, literally, but like with all these men. I wished it was a different environment that I could like speak up, or that I could kind of have my own, you know, have my own way, or do things myself. I did that, but it was like a fight, and it was like a big thing. And it was like at the risk and expense of you being a bitch, or you being like someone scared of you, or you being all these things that like no one ever said about my partners, my ex-husbands, of which I have three. No one ever said that about them. It was a very man-centric, kind of man-focused. There wasn't a woman speaking out, or speaking up, or stepping out, or getting out.

• 6:32Speaker 01

  There was none of that. And then that led into like, obviously, other aspects of my entire life, that I wish I could do things differently. But you can't say like, oh, I wish I didn't have these partners. I wish I didn't have that man. I wish I could have chose a different baby daddy, or whatever is man-focused. You know what I mean? You don't always get it that way. But you think of it in a sense like, it could have been... Could it have been different?

• 6:53Emma Grede?

  Where we sit with you right now, we're in a very unique time for you. And I know that you've recently dropped your last name, Simmons.

• 7:01Speaker 01

  Simmons and Leisner.

• 7:02Emma Grede?

  Simmons, oh, so you got ready.

• 7:03Speaker 01

  Because people were like, oh, she dropped it now that she doesn't need it. Honey, I haven't been needing it for a while, but that's cute.

• 7:09Emma Grede?

  Well, I know that. I mean, I didn't think it was because you didn't need it.

• 7:12Speaker 01

  I dropped them all.

• 7:13Emma Grede?

  But it closes a chapter, right? It closes a chapter. So what chapter are you stepping into now?

• 7:19Speaker 01

  I'm stepping into now a chapter that I don't know how I got here. Every day I look up and I'm like, how did we get here?

• 7:26Emma Grede?

  Do you really?

• 7:27Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. Every day I'm like, wow, I've been here a while. I've done this a while. So I'm very happy to be where I am. I'm very grateful. I'm very humble. My kids, although I do, I have Wolfie at home. He's 10. So Ming, she's 26. Aoki's 23. Kenzo and Gary are 16. Gary's adopted, so they're not twins. And then Wolfie is 10.

• 7:50Emma Grede?

  You have five children.

• 7:51Speaker 01

  At home. Those are just kids at home. I mean, my kids, my kids that are at home, but I have lots of other kids that are like out in the world that I.

• 7:58Emma Grede?

  What do you mean you have lots of other kids?

• 8:00Speaker 01

  I have friends and I have family and I just feel like I have a lot. I have Jaden that lives in the house with me. You might have seen him on the show. I have the twins, Jessie and Delilah, that I speak about all the time, Combs.

• 8:11Emma Grede?

  How have you ended up with all these kids under your roof?

• 8:14Speaker 01

  They've been there, not under my roof, just in my life, just in my care. Just needing your supervision, eating your food, coming, stopping by, like.

• 8:22Emma Grede?

  Eating your food, they're in your house.

• 8:24Speaker 01

  Like being part of your family, part of the, you know, community.

• 8:27Emma Grede?

  What does that say about you and who you are? Are you just naturally extremely maternal that you're attracted to this?

• 8:33Speaker 01

  I'm that mom. That's like saying, I'm that bitch. I'm that mom. When all of this stuff that we are going through nowadays, when we go through this, a lot of people end up at my house, on my couch, in my arms or in my loving embrace. Yeah, you, because it just goes that way.

• 8:52Emma Grede?

  Do you have the energy and the capacity beyond the Mings to, to look after everyone?

• 8:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, I have the capacity because I have so much. It's like, they also say like, to whom much is given, much is expected. Everything about me is like a little more than the average bear. So I have capacity, I think, for like. All the little kids.

• 9:10Emma Grede?

  All the things.

• 9:10Speaker 01

  They're lost and confused, you know, they're little.

• 9:12Emma Grede?

  No, and they need you.

• 9:13Speaker 01

  And they think, yeah.

• 9:14Emma Grede?

  So, so take me back to your childhood a little bit because, you know, the capacity to be this type of woman, the rich auntie that takes everybody in. But that really wasn't your start in life.

• 9:26Speaker 01

  So I was born in St. Louis, Missouri. It's the Midwest, the middle of the United States.

• 9:32Emma Grede?

  The middle.

• 9:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's rocks and like limestone caverns. And I was very different growing up there. I looked very different. My mom is Japanese Korean, so she's 100% Asian. My dad is mixed, black, white, native, mixed, a black man. But my dad was not in my life like that. He wasn't around, he's passed on now. But I grew up with my mom, a single parent household, single, you know, one, just my mom. Single income family and my mom as well for herself, right? It was my grandma for my mom. So I come from a very matriarchal type of family.

• 10:04Emma Grede?

  And it was your mother that kind of placed you in modeling, right?

• 10:08Speaker 01

  Well, I went to like finishing school, nothing to do with modeling. But it was like just to sit up straight or to be able to walk in your room and give your resume. It was a little bit more like that, like modeling classes, but sit up straight, take a picture, do this. I had no clue at the time that that was going to lead to any sort of modeling. But like growing up in St. Louis and being so different and always being teased for like looking like this or just being a little different. You're not quite black enough, you're not quite white enough, you're definitely not Asian enough. Like what, you're a mix. And a mix then was like half black, half white.

• 10:43Emma Grede?

  Right.

• 10:43Speaker 01

  Okay, Mariah Carey was considered like exotically mixed at that when I was younger. Okay, and to me that blows my mind. It definitely was about getting me to a place where there was like minded people and you could just build a little confidence for yourself. This is a little girl, like 12 years old, stand up straight. I was so tall. So it's like not humping over, not, not feeling like, not feeling that you have to blend in and be a wallflower.

• 11:06Emma Grede?

  Do you remember like when it all started happening for you? Because you were so young, you were 13 in Paris. And I think 13 when you got to work with Karl Lagerfeld. And that to me just blew my mind.

• 11:18Speaker 01

  I was so young. I think it's that.

• 11:23Speaker 01

  Someone said to me, it was a photographer's wife. And I think she was doing like the makeup or the styling. And this was when I was young, before I even got to Paris. And she said to me, you know, you have this something about you, this look, this thing, this thing. And if you really wanted to do this thing, you can, because you have, you have it. I think you have it. And I'm, well, okay, what is that? This invisible thing that I have, right? I'm really tall, I'm really awkward. What is it? Let's go for it. And I think that was the first person that said, you know, you have this thing. And I don't know if anybody has ever been able to really put their finger on what's this thing. But I, I kind of went for it. Did you believe it? I believed her. Yeah. Her name was Meg, and I believed her. She told me that. I looked up to her.

• 12:08Speaker 01

  I was at, you know, doing a photo shoots and like test shots and things like that. Sure, I believed them. Like if somebody looks up from the camera and says, oh, you're doing it. You look great. You're like, okay, I look great. That was the first time. No one had ever told me that I looked great or I was doing something great. Keep in mind, I was just there for like finishing. Sit up straight, put a smile on when you're nervous or something like that, right? Shake someone's hand. I never knew this was going to lead me to like Paris. And it did. I was discovered by a modeling agency. And they happened to be from France. It was a convention. So all of these people had come to Kansas City. And you had to show your book and you had to walk. There was all these different kinds of workshops. You handed your book over beautifully. With all your 20,000 shots in it.

• 12:51Speaker 01

  And again, they said, you know, you have this thing. You can come, you can come to Paris. And I thought, oh, my gosh, I have to get my mom to say that's okay. Was she ready to pack you off to Paris? I don't think so. No. But she did. And she worked for the government. She worked for social security, which means it's like very regimented, nine to five. And I was like, please. And I think she thought it was probably, and it proved to be very true. Safer on the road or in the world of Paris or in the world than it was in St. Louis, Missouri. Okay, in 1980, whenever I went to Paris. Wow. And I guess she knew that you were stepping into something that could potentially be really amazing for you. Yes, something that was, could be amazing and something that I wanted to do. And I definitely wanted to try. Yeah.

• 13:35Speaker 01

  Like give it your best, you know, we have kids, you have kids. If they want to try out for basketball, you're like, okay. You're not going to be like, you can't do that. You're really clumsy, you have two left feet. You're like, it's basketball now. Let's get these shoes, let's get this kit. Let's go. So I think she was saying, let's go. And it was. A treacherous environment, but like I said, compared to coming from St. Louis, Missouri, I wasn't running around the streets of St. Louis, Missouri. And I always used to say that when I'm gone, I don't have a curfew. When I come home, my curfew is midnight or whatever as a kid. And I think it was just two different worlds.

• 14:06Emma Grede?

  Take me back to those times. So like, give me a picture of what it's like in Paris. You turn up and like, what is actually happening? Are you going like on go sees and getting turned down? Like, what is the actual environment that you're put in? And how do you even relate to that as a 13 year old from the middle of the country?

• 14:26Speaker 01

  Well, you have to have a thick skin, that's for sure. But I had had that already from being, you know, chased down the hallway at school for looking different. So you definitely had to have a thick skin. But one of my first castings was for Chanel. So I was discovered. Carl took me, I went to work there.

• 14:42Emma Grede?

  Did you know who Carl was at that time?

• 14:44Speaker 01

  I knew that it was Chanel.

• 14:45Emma Grede?

  Right.

• 14:46Speaker 01

  Just like now, if a girl goes to a casting, I think you're seeing the designer. You're walking, you're trying on some clothes.

• 14:51Emma Grede?

  Did you understand like, this is a big deal? Like, if I get this job, then this is something major?

• 14:56Speaker 01

  I did not, but I understood it when I got the job.

• 14:59Emma Grede?

  Right.

• 14:59Speaker 01

  Because they said he booked you. Carl liked you. That's as easy as somebody saying, you look terrible when you went in there. They said you looked tired, like Carl liked you. And I started going to work every day at Rue Cambon, 31 Rue Cambon, which is still Coco Chanel's apartment.

• 15:13Emma Grede?

  Absolutely.

• 15:13Speaker 01

  It's still the main atelier, it's the main boutique, 31 Rue Cambon. I would walk down Rue Cambon every day, get my strawberry tart. I talk about this all the time. And I would go to work there every day, like that was my nine to five. And then, yes, I shot the campaigns. That was when Carl was at the dawn of being a photographer. So he had started shooting his own campaigns and doing all this stuff. I don't even know Chanel appreciated that then, but we came to, you know, love it. So I was shooting campaigns, I did the show, my first show was couture, I was the bride. And that was like, kind of the beginning of everything.

• 15:48Emma Grede?

  And what did those early experiences teach you about power?

• 15:53Speaker 01

  So much. So I don't think I knew exactly what I was getting into. I learned so much about decision making and putting your ideas forward and trying new things and working in a system that has a chain of command and being like the house of Chanel and working with Carl, who's a designer and designing for that house. I learned so much behind the scenes from being with him day in and day out. But again, at the time, that was like my buddy, like my confidant. We were together day in, day out for years. I'd never, before my contract ended, and then I could go and do other things. Wow. And by then, you're gonna get any other things. Totally, because you've been at Chanel. Started there. So that's when the castings really came for me and they would say yes or no.

• 16:38Speaker 01

  In the beginning, they couldn't because I didn't go, I was only at Chanel.

• 16:49Emma Grede?

  I'm really interested to understand what that early kind of exposure in fashion ultimately like impacted in the business.

• 16:57Speaker 01

  Why I had this different beginning? It's because, I know why, to this day. First of all, I'm an Asian like tiger mom. They say you probably shouldn't say tiger mom anymore, it's played, but.

• 17:05Emma Grede?

  It's okay, you don't have to be, you don't have to be correct and politically correct.

• 17:09Speaker 01

  And I'm definitely the type that's always saying, what's next? Or what more? What else is there? And I've written about this in my book. I was scared that I had ended up in this place where beauty, or what someone's impression of your beauty is rewarded so greatly with so much. That was amazing to me, incredible. I was being given like clothes, I was going to school. When I did go back home, which was only for little months at a time, I had on my silk Chanel ballet flats, my tweed jackets. I had no clue that it was fabulous. It was all I could afford because it was free. It was given to me from Carl, right? So this is when I'm going to school in, they probably were like, what the heck is that?

• 17:49Emma Grede?

  What is happening?

• 17:50Speaker 01

  So I didn't realize, I think, the magnitude. I've always thought, what else is there? And I think that scared me that someone or an industry or a group of people could put so much to do on your beauty or your long legs. Or these are all things to me that are weird. And I didn't have them just before in St. Louis. I was ugly. I was the ugly duckling. I was the weirdo. So now it's like, which one is it? And I think I had to think of a backup plan because I thought, well, as just as quickly as they took you in, could be as quickly as they usher you out. And I don't think a lot of people think like that today. Certainly when you see models nowadays.

• 18:29Speaker 01

  They're not thinking of what's next. You can clearly see that.

• 18:33Emma Grede?

  Were there things like lessons in creative leadership that you actually learned from Carl? That you took into your business later on?

• 18:39Speaker 01

  Every single thing. I learned everything. They weren't actually official classes. But being around someone to this day of such greatness and magnitude and presence, I think, in the business just rubbed off on me. And to have that then be like your papa, or your uncle, or your dad, or your, whatever you want to call it, your mentor, definitely, you know, rubbed off on me. So you learned this juxtaposition and you learned this delicate dance. And it's a dance of beauty and power. And I landed myself in this perfect seat. Because also, if you think about it nowadays, that you've heard all these things about Carl, I feel like he kind of lived his life in that way, too. They run it, but I'm running it.

• 19:22Speaker 01

  So I learned all these things from that point of view. I'm trying to be nice.

• 19:26Emma Grede?

  No, no, no, don't be nice.

• 19:29Speaker 01

  You guys know Carl. You can imagine, you can see, you can see some of the things he said. He has said things like, if it doesn't fit you, I didn't make it for you. But this is what I grew up with. This is what I grew up with, right? If it didn't fit me, then it wasn't made for me. And if you're standing here right now, well, then that opportunity is for you. And I believe that. What is your opportunity? No one can take that away. It doesn't matter how you got there, or you will get there. That is your moment. You can't be derailed from that.

• 19:54Emma Grede?

  What do you think is your biggest lesson from those times?

• 19:57Speaker 01

  Oh, gosh. My mom used to tell me, don't accept any wooden nickels. I didn't even know what the hell that was. That means don't accept any BS from anybody just selling you the bridge. And I just, did you ever?

• 20:11Speaker 01

  I did. I got into, I would say no, but yes, the truth of it is I did. But it never really derailed me, I think, as much as it could have. But like, I look at that as like, Businesses failing or divorce, right? I've gone through these things. So some of these things were big things I took on that like didn't end the way that I thought. To me, that's kind of like a failure, a marked, you know? If you started something and it didn't work and that's totally fine. We start things all the time, it didn't work. You cannot be successful if you do not start things and it doesn't work. If everything works out for you, that's probably not the best, the easiest, most sound proof.

• 20:47Emma Grede?

  Totally, you're not doing enough.

• 20:48Speaker 01

  So I think I learned some of these things, you know, the hard way. But again, I was, I was just in it and I was mature far beyond my years. So I don't think people thought they were dealing with a 13 year old or a 15 year old or a 16 year old or 18 year old. And I think that set me up for life. And the lessons that Carl instilled in me and even just working with me for so long gave me kind of a stamp of approval that took that need away from getting that approval someplace else.

• 21:17Emma Grede?

  Yeah, no doubt.

• 21:18Speaker 01

  Because I never really had that growing up.

• 21:20Emma Grede?

  So I want to talk to you about Baby Fat and this like glorious moment. But you need to kind of paint the picture for us because hip hop really was like at the center of culture in the early 2000s. And so talk to me about starting this brand because it really did get to like high heights, right? We're talking about a brand that at one point had a billion dollars of combined sales between, you know, the licensed goods and what you were selling. I mean, it's really something that's like pretty epic. So I'd really want to kind of go back and understand like where did that start?

• 21:56Speaker 01

  Okay, so I was with my ex. I met him very young, I was 16.

• 22:02Emma Grede?

  We're talking about Russell at this point.

• 22:03Speaker 01

  Yes, my first husband. I met him when I was 16. We were off and on for some years. That's way too young now in hindsight, but you couldn't tell me that.

• 22:13Emma Grede?

  I'm glad you said it.

• 22:14Speaker 01

  It's way too young.

• 22:15Emma Grede?

  Yeah.

• 22:15Speaker 01

  But I thought I was grown.

• 22:16Emma Grede?

  Of course you did.

• 22:17Speaker 01

  And I thought, because this is the same girl who's living on her own. When I met him, I was already living in Paris and I came to New York. So I go through my modeling, I'm going through my relationship. Things get serious as the years progress on. We actually got married when I was, I want to say early twenties, maybe 21 or 22 because Ming's 26 right now, so early twenties. Russell at the time had a men's clothing line called Fat Farm, P H A T, like pretty hot and tempting. That's the PG version. And we wanted to do a line for women. Everything they would come up with was like, you can imagine, it looked like Fat Farm, which was very classic clothes with an oversized kind of a streetwear fit. So we had baggy jeans, but we also had like our guile sweaters, right?

• 23:00Speaker 01

  Very classic pieces, pieces that looked like they could have been Ralph Lauren, or Tommy Hilfiger, some of our friends who helped us get into the business, right? So very classic mix with like this street edge. When women wanted to wear anything of fashion, now we're talking women that could not only afford high fashion, right? Because if you can afford high fashion, great, you have money, you can get whatever you want. We're talking about those who could not. There was really nothing for them. And then you would drop down from high fashion, there was this something called contemporary. Like Emma, this is before even you were doing all this. Actually, you came in, we had these categories, right? These crazy sizes and these things. There was contemporary, and that was still a little bit expensive. That's kind of where you are now. And then there's this concept of like, what else is there? There wasn't.

• 23:45Speaker 01

  Nowadays, that would be streetwear. Totally. Nowadays, that would be quicker fashion. It wasn't then at all, right? We designed to the seasons. It was every few times a year, collections, matching up around the world with your deliveries. It was different. He had a men's line, we wanted to do women's. If you remember women of our, of that time, again, my graduating class, who were the girls that were hot? Aaliyah. Yes. TLC, right? You think of these girls. Even Janet Jackson, some of her performances, look at their clothes. They always had on something super sexy, but they had on something oversized. Or like a guy's baseball jersey opened up with like a little bra. Like overalls, like, absolutely. Or like crisscross, this backwards dressing, the black color.

• 24:30Speaker 01

  Yes. And all oversized, right? The sideways leaning hat, I don't, we don't want that. No. To me, at that time, and I'm from St. Louis, Missouri, so yes, I went to the big time in Paris, but I'm from. But you're still middle of America mentality, yeah. There was nothing that spoke to women that had this edge of fashion, or flair, or anything of what I liked, nothing else of what they liked. I realized it was, again, a man's world. And the women would kind of like pink it and shrink it, like just kind of like wear my size. It was my boyfriend's jacket, varsity jacket, those are even big today. Letterman jacket, baggy clothes, all of these things. And I kept saying, we don't want that. Yeah. We don't want that, and here's why. This is what we want, this is how we move, blah, blah, blah.

• 25:13Speaker 01

  They would look at me so crazy and they would say, well, she's a high fashion model, because keep in mind, I'm high fashion. I came in from couture, I didn't come in from ready to wear. I did that, but my entrance was couture. So they would look at me and say, okay, she definitely knows what she's talking about. Or as a business move, that's better. Everything was better, but it was under the guise of what a man said. Yeah. Or what a man said you would do, or how a man said you would do it. That was my husband.

• 25:41Speaker 01

  And so they started to listen to me and we created this concept, this women's brand called Baby Fat. What was your role then? Did you have like an official role? I don't think it was an official name. No. Telling them what to think, telling them what to make, telling them what to wear, trying it on, showing you how it was. Like if you look back to like, I don't know, I Got Nothing But Love For You video with Heavy D. All those girls were probably wearing Baby Fat. They had on a little T-shirt. Wow. Said Baby Fat. That was the thing, we made little baby tees. I wanted to say I coined this idea of the baby tee, but I don't think I actually did, but we made it like. I mean, you could say it. Where you took these T-shirts and you wore like literally. And they were little, yeah. So everything started to become a little sexier. I would take like the leather crazy pants and make a little hot short.

• 26:25Speaker 01

  I remember I had this little chocolate hot short that all the girls tell me they have it still to this day that I gave them. I would call upon all of my model friends, he would call upon all of his, and lord knows he had a lot. A lot. It's a different podcast, but. Or it could be this one. I mean, that's a whole nother day. We'll have to go through, we'll have to go through. But we called on all of our model friends and our friends in fashion. And we started making things that I liked, that I thought represented women better, a better fit. These were women that were women of color, that were not high fashion.

• 26:58Emma Grede?

  Yes.

• 26:58Speaker 01

  And it was streetwear, but with a flair. And it was what these guys had, but in our size and our kind of style. So this was the onset of the tracksuit, the velour suit. This was the five pocket jean.

• 27:11Emma Grede?

  I mean,

• 27:12Speaker 01

  This was a jean that had stretchy in it.

• 27:14Emma Grede?

  There was such an an outsized impact on the culture. And I have to tell you, even going back to when I started Good American, which is nine, 10 years ago now, when the the original idea was festering, some of the original samples, and I went on eBay. I was going on resale sites. I was like, find me the baby fat jeans. Because I knew that the fit of those, the construction of those was so good. But more specifically, it wasn't what everything else was. It wasn't a straight body block, right?

• 27:45Speaker 01

  And it wasn't stiff.

• 27:46Emma Grede?

  No, it was made for to hug and to accentuate the curves.

• 27:51Speaker 01

  Yeah. Because then that was not popular. And nobody was creating for those women. No one was creating for a woman of color. And no one was creating for a woman of any size.

• 27:59Emma Grede?

  Did you understand that that was a business proposition there? Or was that just more like a creative point of view? Were you like, oh, one second, this is a this is a business strategy here?

• 28:08Speaker 01

  No, it became that. I understood there was a hole in the market.

• 28:11Emma Grede?

  Yeah.

• 28:12Speaker 01

  And although, yeah, I'm skinny and I'm slim and I was modeling because I didn't gain weight until I've gained plenty of weight off and on since then.

• 28:19Emma Grede?

  Oh, you're fine.

• 28:20Speaker 01

  I've had kids, I have kids, so I've been up and down and all kinds of things, right? I might have been skinny at the time, but my customers and my cohorts and my peers and my demographic was not.

• 28:30Emma Grede?

  You understood that. What about this piece? Because again, it's like you've been, you know, a gun for hire for all intents and purposes. You're a model, you're getting paid a fee to go and do a job to this like company that you're essentially creating. How did you structure that? What was the arrangement? Like, did you own a piece of the business?

• 28:47Speaker 01

  Yes, of course, yes. But it was the smallest piece of the business, right? Because there was other guys and other partners and the guys were my ex husbands, you know, friends.

• 28:56Emma Grede?

  Did you own enough of the business, given your contribution?

• 28:59Speaker 01

  No, no, definitely not. And that was one of those things that I learned. And that's, you know, you live and you learn. I probably made.

• 29:07Speaker 01

  I think we ended up selling that. Now we're fast forwarding through everything, right? I think we built that company up and probably sold it for a hundred and something million dollars. I probably got 20 million of that or less out of a hundred something million dollars. And the entire sale was based on Baby Fat, which you could look at the date because when we sold it, there was Fat Farm was obsolete. It was still there, but it was that was not what you were selling it for. You're selling it for Baby Fat. And I only learned this because people would tell me like, oh, you have to come to work today. We're having this meeting with these bankers. We're going to sell it. And I'm like, a little confused, but a little excited.

• 29:42Emma Grede?

  What did you miss when you sit down now, because you're an incredible businesswoman? And you've been there, not just for yourself, but also for your family. So what did you miss going back in that time?

• 29:51Speaker 01

  I missed all of the preliminary conversations. I missed all of the conversations about how great the brand was, all of the, all of the numbers that were turned in, all of the numbers on the business.

• 30:02Emma Grede?

  You weren't paying attention?

• 30:03Speaker 01

  No, not that I wasn't paying attention. I wasn't privy to the fact that these businesses took place. It was literally, who of my partners now, then do we know now? So Bobby Shriver was one of my partners. He's my kid's godfather. He's a Kennedy. Bobby Shriver was one. I'm telling our folks today, Lior Cohen was one.

• 30:22Emma Grede?

  Oh, yeah. We all know Lior.

• 30:23Speaker 01

  Like, I mean, we can go through these partners of who they were and they could, you could, I don't know how much of this is public and how much is not. The number that we sold it for is public. You can see, you can deduct my amount and see the amount that was left. And there was a few other partners that were more like garmentos and people that you might not know their name. The reason I say those names is because some, these names have gone on in politics and gone on in music and gone on to do these things. So they definitely knew what they were doing. And they were much older than me, right? Lior must be.

• 30:49Emma Grede?

  Way older than me.

• 30:50Speaker 01

  Or anyone like that. I just, not to, you know, they were 20 years older than me, 15 years older than me.

• 30:54Emma Grede?

  What was it like mentally and emotionally? Because I think you sold the company around 2010. And to me, the Baby Fat name was synonymous with Kimora Lee. Like, I thought, you, Baby Fat. Like, that's how we put it together.

• 31:07Speaker 01

  Well, I remember when I did my first show and it was like this, like Spire with Emma Reid. And it was Baby Fat.

• 31:13Emma Grede?

  Yes.

• 31:13Speaker 01

  And I came in to look, and this was when I probably had DJ Cassidy or Ronson. We were going through the music and I looked up and it said Baby Fat. And I'm like, oh. And I was like, it should say by Kimora Lee Simmons. And that was the logo, but it wasn't up on that wall. From that time forward, you know, we had it. It made like a big deal. I learned to kind of take my seat at the table, if I, if you would, right? Don't you talk about that all the time? And so it wasn't that I wasn't paying attention. I was paying attention so well. It was the fact that I wasn't privy to some of this information. Also because of the way that it started, the way that I started was under Fat Farm. And that's a key point because everybody's always like, well, if she didn't have that, then she wouldn't have had the rest. And that's fair to say, but it's what did I do once I got my foot in the door?

• 31:58Speaker 01

  That no one did for me. But sometimes I learned, and this is another trick of the game, being in that room. It's not always that you got a chance to be in the room and be the biggest light and the biggest mouth and the brightest thinker. And I'm talking then, 30 years ago, in a room full of men and bankers and people that say, this is great, we're going to sell this, you're going to get all this money. I didn't get all this money, but you know who got all this money? Was my husband. And at that time, I was told and I was raised and taught that that was good enough. My husband getting it was the same as me getting it, but it wasn't. And I did not learn that until later when other things started happening. And I said, oh, you know what? I don't want to be here. I want out.

• 32:44Speaker 01

  Can I stand on my own two feet? Well, I built this and that, I did this, my kids. Well, no, no. You got this much of that, you got this much of that. When you start to go and look at things and try to split them up or get your business fairness, that's when you realize it's a little different. And it's different having a business and having a marriage. Exactly. It's different having a business and having a relationship. It's different having a business and you're single, but you're sleeping with someone on the board. You know, there's many different kinds of things. I had a business, which was my first child, then came Ming. And I had a husband. And my husband was like a bigger than life force at the time, right? In his own right, in terms of like music and everything that they were doing, being the godfather of hip hop.

• 33:29Speaker 01

  So you kind of learn to take. A seat, even if that seat was kind of shotgun. And sometimes it was the it was the backseat.

• 33:37Emma Grede?

  Well, this is what I love so much about Yukomora, because I think just that level of honesty. And, you know, I think so many women find themselves in a similar position. Where they know that they are contributing in great ways. But they're not quite sure how to equate that contribution and what it's worth. And how it kind of fits into the bigger scheme of what they're doing. And you're surrounded by people that seemingly know way better than you. And to insert yourself is an imposition. It is like, oh, my goodness, like, I don't really understand everything that's being said. And, you know, my my point of view in that is that nobody knows. Most of those people around there are just making it up.

• 34:17Emma Grede?

  And actually, you just having the audacity to sit at the table and take your rightful place. When you're contributing in that way, that is the thing. And then being able to raise your hand and be like, hey, wait a minute, my contribution is worth X. It's really hard to measure that sometimes for yourself, but nobody is coming to do that for you. And I guess for you, you have learned that the hard way. Because you've kind of come full circle and come back for baby fat, which I just was like, oh, my God, that's the coolest thing ever.

• 34:48Speaker 01

  Not only that, I've started other businesses.

• 34:50Emma Grede?

  Oh, and there's been a bunch, right?

• 34:52Speaker 01

  Now about getting your structuring it the right way, right? A lot of the things I've learned in my life, lessons that I've learned in my life. I've learned from very great people who are most of the time men. A lot of the times they were women, but that came later. In the beginning, they were men.

• 35:09Emma Grede?

  I could be really honest and say exactly the same. I think that men have an ease in which they share information. Because they do that all the time. They drop the numbers, they tell you who they did the deal with, they'll tell you the lawyer that brokered it. They'll tell you how much they paid the lawyer that brokered it. And there is just this ease of information. And one of the biggest reasons I started this podcast was so that we could start to have an ease of the information. And a mistake that you made could be something that somebody else who's sitting at home in a similar situation. Where they know their contribution is meaningful, that they can actually take their rightful seat and ask for what they need. And not end up in the same situation.

• 35:46Speaker 01

  Same situation. And I've seen so many women that you. Would not believe women that we know, women that you and I know very, very well. We women that I've known 20, 30 or so years, women that are like the most beautiful, the most successful, the sexiest women that you would know. These women are my friends, these women are my family, these women are my comrades. I can tell you crazy shit that every single one of us has gone through with men and business. No matter how big and successful you seem like you are, some of the pitfalls and some of the things, and that's why I always will be there to help the next woman, because there was nobody there to help me like that.

• 36:35Emma Grede?

  What is something that every founder that's building a brand needs to know before they start that nobody tells you?

• 36:41Speaker 01

  Read the fine print, I think is a good one. We don't read enough of the fine print and it gets finer and finer and it's longer and longer and it's harder to read, but it's important, even if it comes to something like the usage on your phone.

• 36:54Speaker 01

  Read the fine print.

• 36:55Emma Grede?

  Read it.

• 36:55Speaker 01

  When you downloaded whatever app, read the fine print because in that app, it probably took over your whole thing. It's probably spying on you and watching your whole family and you gave it permission. Read the fine print.

• 37:05Emma Grede?

  Someone you want to tell us tomorrow, what happened?

• 37:07Speaker 01

  I learned a lot. Can we go back through that later? The tech generation.

• 37:13Emma Grede?

  I love that.

• 37:13Speaker 01

  Read the fine print. No one's going to do it for you and what you think that you deserve or what you think you are owed, it comes down to the black and white of it.

• 37:21Emma Grede?

  Yeah, no doubt.

• 37:22Speaker 01

  And a lot of women, those aforementioned women that I was talking about in the beginning, didn't have that fine print covered. They didn't have the right signatures.

• 37:31Emma Grede?

  We don't necessarily know what questions to ask and I think that can sometimes be the problem. What was it like for you emotionally as you exited Baby Fat? You understood that you'd been given, you know, perhaps less than you were worth.

• 37:45Speaker 01

  So when we sold the company, I stayed on as an officer of the company. So then that was still, I had a new contract, I stayed there for years. Russell was gone quite quickly after that for some other issues. So I became the head of Fat Fashions, the president and the CEO, and that was great. And then I stayed there for some years, quite a few years. And then when my contract was coming up again, I didn't renew and then I went on and then that, I think they sold it after that and then I went around. Because when I got it back, it was from probably one or two buyers, you know, later.

• 38:16Emma Grede?

  What made you want to get it back?

• 38:19Speaker 01

  Well, here's the thing. I started other things along the way, like Just Fat, which is like a baby fat version. I worked with them when they started it, let's say that. And I was there as well as a president and CEO, the creative director. So I realized that that niche for that kind of brand, I mean, I'm talking down to my Pantone of Pink, my script, my font, the fit of my clothes, the style of the shoe or the pump, or whatever it is, right? A brand DNA, I guess.

• 38:45Emma Grede?

  Yes.

• 38:46Speaker 01

  And I realized that that brand DNA, this is years ago, we're talking now, right? 10 years ago, maybe 15, you know, we're talking, I mean, not today, just. I'm realizing that that brand DNA didn't go away. I realized that there is a DNA there that I have used, that I have created, that other people have used. And so I think it was just the right calling and timing. I don't know. Usually when you want your brand back, it's a little bit tricky because you're going to end up paying too much and they're going to get you for the nostalgia of your name or your parents' name or your first pet dog, Sparky, whatever it was that you put into your business. And you cannot do that. You really do build these things up to let them go, right? It's like letting your child go in the world. So getting it back was something that I knew I wanted, but I didn't know how.

• 39:31Speaker 01

  And it just took time and years.

• 39:33Emma Grede?

  And you have it back now?

• 39:35Speaker 01

  And I have it back now. And it's a little bit different now because, right? You don't do, now it's more D to C, which I feel like you know very well. It's not so much retail, it's not brick and mortar, which means freestanding stores. You know, it used to be that you worked your way through the system, through the buying and the selling, and then you end up on the floor of a department store and then you die.

• 39:54Emma Grede?

  Sell off.

• 39:55Speaker 01

  Now that sell off is lifestyle. That has moved up, right? Those retailers are like mainstream now. Things have changed. But it's also a resurgence of fashion and branding, which was another thing that we created at the time, having the access to all of these artists and things, the idea of the branding, how to use your eyeballs and your visibility to come and draw those people into something else you're doing.

• 40:19Emma Grede?

  I wanted to talk to you about your girls because you're all in the limelight. And I wonder like how you're thinking, like how you Teach them how you talk to them about business. Is it a conversation that you have?

• 40:31Speaker 01

  Yes, my kids and I are very close. We talk every day if they're traveling, of which now they're both traveling. They both graduated from college. Ming went to NYU, Yoki graduated from Harvard.

• 40:42Emma Grede?

  Congratulations. Smart girls.

• 40:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, she got in like four years early. I think she was accepted at fifteen.

• 40:47Emma Grede?

  That's crazy.

• 40:48Speaker 01

  So she graduated Harvard at eighteen.

• 40:50Emma Grede?

  Do you think you protect them from things that they've perhaps never needed to think about? Or do they face very similar challenges?

• 40:58Speaker 01

  No, a little bit of both. They definitely face their own challenges. I mean, you could look up and see them dating or doing businesses or doing their, I let them go. You don't have a choice because they're adults. Ming is twenty six years old. Yoki is twenty three. They're old enough to think like, I could do what I want and you can't tell me. But like, not old enough to like pay for all the mistakes that you could get into. So you need your mom.

• 41:18Emma Grede?

  How has being a parent made you reflect on how you were treated in the industry back in the day?

• 41:24Speaker 01

  That's tricky. So from when I was in the business to when they were in a business now, was like, we've gone through like movements, you know, we've gone through like Me Too. I didn't have any personal issues of my own, but obviously people very close to me have. And in that, all the time.

• 41:41Emma Grede?

  Was that surprising to you?

• 41:42Speaker 01

  Me Too, the movement?

• 41:43Emma Grede?

  No, the ground swell around the people close to you. Were you taken aback and surprised?

• 41:49Speaker 01

  Well, no, because coming out of all, some of these relationships, all of, I say all, but some of those big relationships in my life, I've always been pretty vocal about it. And I've always said things that I thought about people that were around me, whether they were my friendly, I call them friendlies. Or not, you know, I've been pretty vocal and I've grown up with some of these people, most of these people, I'm being modest. I've grown up with all of these people. Most people, although I was very young, and all of these lists and all of these things, I probably know those people. I'm looking at it like, you did it, you did it. And I told, but nobody was listening to me. Or sometimes they would, but they would brush it under the rug. It was different, right? It's a patriarchal world that we live in. I don't want to come here and say here like I'm just bashing all the men. But I'm giving you the hierarchy and the structure in which we live.

• 42:32Speaker 01

  So me yelling about thinking someone is a freak, or someone is a weirdo, or someone did something, if it's not egregiously a something, no one's really listening to that. But I said it, you could go back and you could look. I've always tried to maintain. You know, what I thought and the my honesty and my integrity of my version of the of seeing people around with what I thought, but it was a little bit, you know, when you say like ground swell, it was like, I don't know, a tornado, like a tsunami or something. It wiped out so many people that we had, so many guys of color, so many black people, a whole industry, it seemed like, not every person.

• 43:10Emma Grede?

  I mean, a whole industry and so many white people too, but yes, a lot of people.

• 43:13Speaker 01

  But of my, you know, crew, of my crew, of hip hop industry, of a certain genre of music.

• 43:20Emma Grede?

  Well, I think that it hit the entertainment industry in a really, really big way. And I think that for anyone that was around at that time, it was a moment of reckoning and it was a moment of huge reflection and like, you know, I think that the ramifications and the ripple effects will be, you know, there forever. And listen, the world has changed for the better because of that movement. Like, I feel that certainly as a woman, that we are far better off for that movement. And, you know, while there was, you know, people, I think, complain about there being collateral damage, but all the best movements.

• 43:57Speaker 01

  There's collateral damage, but there's collateral damage on both sides. And I know women, many, many women that were involved on the upside and the down, and I know men that were involved on the upside and the down, both sides, on the side of an acute, as an accuser and as a victim on both sides. I've known lots of people, I've seen people and I said, that story is not quite accurate. We were all there, but go off. And there's other people that I have said, that story is very mild, you know good and damn well what you did, so sit down and lick your wounds before you, something else happens, right? So it's been a, it's been some intense moments of navigating, to say the least.

• 44:33Emma Grede?

  I feel like that's an understatement and we should, we should leave it there.

• 44:38Speaker 01

  Exactly, understatement of beer.

• 44:40Emma Grede?

  One of the things that I was like, literally, I mean, we were all talking about it recently, was this America's Next Top Model doc. And you weren't part of it. And I was like, I have got to. What do you mean you don't know why?

• 44:54Speaker 01

  I don't know why I wasn't part of the doc.

• 44:56Emma Grede?

  Were you asked, not asked to be?

• 44:58Speaker 01

  No.

• 44:58Emma Grede?

  What?

• 44:59Speaker 01

  I was in it, though.

• 45:00Emma Grede?

  Yes, but like, I imagined that you would be like a talking head.

• 45:03Speaker 01

  And Tyra is one of my kids' godmothers as well. Although we haven't talked in quite a long time, but we used to be very, very close. I started Top Model with her. I was on the first season of Top Model.

• 45:14Emma Grede?

  I mean, this is what I know. I almost had to check myself. I was like, was I confused? Was I living in England?

• 45:19Speaker 01

  But I was in the documentary, right?

• 45:20Emma Grede?

  You were in the doc.

• 45:22Speaker 01

  I'm sure I was.

• 45:22Emma Grede?

  You were, you were kind of in the documentary. But I wanted to see you like sitting there like this now, like telling me what was what.

• 45:28Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, I don't know about that because I think some of the other people who are there dealing with the brand probably don't want to see this right here because maybe it's too, I don't know, close for comfort. I'm not really sure. You have to ask them that.

• 45:40Emma Grede?

  Oh, okay.

• 45:40Speaker 01

  It's really weird. I'm not sure.

• 45:42Emma Grede?

  It was weird.

• 45:43Speaker 01

  I know. I heard a lot about it, but I didn't see it.

• 45:45Emma Grede?

  Do you think that that was just like a portrait of a moment in time? Do you believe that like we're being too sensitive now? What's your, what's your thought on your takeout? Because you're always so vocal.

• 45:56Speaker 01

  It was a crazy moment in time. I think that a lot of the things they talk about in it, and that's probably why they don't call me because I'm not, I'm not, I'm not bound by anything and I'm definitely going to say what I think. A lot of them are bound by stuff when you do that. But a lot of what was portrayed, leading up to this documentary, I'm not talking about the documentary, I'm talking about all of the talk associated with leading up to this and about the industry and the models and the brand were true, were very true. And we lived through that, like treacherous moments, you know, with models. But then they had, I guess, this documentary that kind of all of these things culminated. I don't think people were being too serious, I mean, too sensitive about it. I think it was, you know, mostly true. And I feel like.

• 46:42Speaker 01

  A lot of the essence of that was harnessed into making this documentary. But to me, it looks like a double edged sword. The whole making of that thing. And I think probably they're going to do another season or something like that. So one thing's going to lead into the, you know, the next. I think it's great branding.

• 46:57Emma Grede?

  Maybe you could go in season two.

• 46:59Speaker 01

  That's like season thirty two. I didn't even know what season that is. They've been around for a very long time. But it was treacherous and it was a modeling time. I mean, these were girls that were young girls that wanted a contract. It was the dawn, it was TV, the dawn of putting any type of modeling competition like that on TV.

• 47:15Emma Grede?

  Yes.

• 47:16Speaker 01

  So it was a lot of the perfect storm of a lot of things.

• 47:18Emma Grede?

  But it was a huge hit. Why did you not go back and do another season?

• 47:22Speaker 01

  I talked with them about going back a lot, a lot. And I just feel like over the years, we could never get it, you know, together. Even as it changed networks and the brand would say like, you have to go and get Kimora.

• 47:33Emma Grede?

  We wanted you in there. We all wanted to see you.

• 47:35Speaker 01

  Maybe in the future, you never, never know. But I'm also not going to be that mean to, I'm not going to like break. I feel like my thing is like the editing and the cuts. You know what I mean? I'm trying to tell the girls, but like have a little bit of heart about it.

• 47:48Emma Grede?

  Have a little bit of heart about it.

• 47:59Emma Grede?

  So before we wrap, a quick reminder that Start With Yourself is available for preorder and tickets for the live shows are available now. Starting April fifteenth, we're coming to New York, Los Angeles, San Francisco, Chicago, DC, Boston, Atlanta and London. Visit emigr8.com for tickets and full tour details. I cannot wait.

• 48:21Emma Grede?

  Okay, before we wrap up, I want to just make sure we touch on my favorite subject, which is money. I want to talk to you about the lessons that you've learned over the years because you've spoken really honestly and frankly about what you perhaps should have got and you didn't for a myriad of different reasons. How do you think about money now in your life? What lessons have you learned? And how have you kind of developed your understanding around money and what you should get?

• 48:48Speaker 01

  That's a lot. It's a lot about, that's a discussion about having your seat at the table. Table not being afraid to pull up and present yourself and your ideas and own them as yours. Not being afraid to pull that seat back and have it and sit down. I've learned just so much. I've been at this a long, long time, like decades. If you count how long I've been modeling, I'm probably one of the ones that have been around the longest. If you count how long my little brand, my little brand, because I'm not Ralph Lauren, right? It's been going on thirty years, I think. Did you make enough money, given your contribution over all of these years and decades? Definitely, I feel like not, but I will say that most of the people that I've done business with in the past, that I thought maybe got way more than me at the time.

• 49:31Speaker 01

  And we all chose to do what we, whatever we did. My thing was always building and investing because I'm a mom. I am better off than almost all of those people now exponentially. Why is that? I think they made different decisions in life, whereas I was always more of a protector and like, you know what they say about a woman, like if you give us a house, we'll make a home. If you give us a seed, we'll make a baby, we'll make a family, we'll multiply that. I was busy multiplying and saving and investing. I did that by investing. All of my businesses, I'm a big shareholder in because it's public. It's Celsius or we have Rockstar, we have drinks, I have skincare brands. Those are mine. And I learned, I think, about the power of money, but investments, those are investments.

• 50:16Speaker 01

  Who taught you that? Oh, wow, I learned that by trial and error. I learned it by all of the things that we just said, all the guys and all the people that have taken advantage of me. I remember once when I was younger, early twenties, my partner mate at the time, which you can figure out who that was because we did the names, came in and said, okay, you have to get a lawyer, we have to talk about some of these things. When you find that lawyer, here's my lawyer and you know, you can call them up and then we have to talk about some things, contract things. And I was like, okay, I had no clue, contract things. I looked at the lawyer and I was, who is this lawyer? This lawyer at the time came from one of our really big prominent friends had given them this lawyer. I didn't know what to do, I didn't know what to discuss.

• 50:59Speaker 01

  And so I called the prominent friend's wife because I didn't know. So you got this lawyer, I'll tell you who it was, it was from Donald Trump. Got it, thank you. Donald gave us this lawyer. Oh, I was like, come on. Donald gave us this lawyer. Okay. Years ago, not me, he gave it to my ex. To Russell? Comes and says, yeah, you have to have a lawyer. What a match. You have to go get this to talk about X, Y, Z. So you call who, Melania? No, this was years ago. Oh, this is where it's Ivana. I know all the wives, all the children, all the marriages, you know. You go back, you've been around. As I have been with many, with several presidents and several many. No, no doubt. This transcends the sides and the teams and the parties and it transcends a lot. You can Google, a quick Google search will show you that everybody knows everybody. We know you were there.

• 51:45Speaker 01

  So, yeah. And it'll also show you that you can have friends or friendlies and they don't necessarily do all of the things, right, in the public eye that you think they should or that they said they would in the private sector, right? It's different. No doubt, okay. So I called Ivana and she has this accent and she says, darling, don't worry. Who is this lawyer? He'd give you a... She looks at the... And she says, oh, I know this lawyer. He was there when we got married. I will give you my lawyer. It's so and so. That's the lawyer who works with this lawyer all the time on the other side. So I took my lawyer back. I went and hired the lawyer and I went back and I gave him the lawyer.

• 52:21Speaker 01

  I got so many phone calls, okay, from my ex at the time and so many other people that said, what in the hell are you doing? Do you know the lawyer that you got? You know how expensive this is? Do you know what all they're going to put us through arguing back and forth over the terms of this contract that I didn't even know I had to do?

• 52:39Speaker 01

  Why would you do that? Where would you get this person? How did you even do this? And I said, what is this contract for? I was young. I was not married at the time. It was a last minute contract that someone comes in and says, you have to sign this. What did you do? It was a prenup that I didn't know I needed, that I had. And when I divorced, you could go and see my divorce records are filed in the state down at the courts. You can see I got nothing from this man when I got a divorce. Did you keep, did you keep the lawyer? I had the lawyer. I know the lawyer to this day. Did they do such a shit deal that you ended up with nothing after all of this? They didn't do a shit deal, but I didn't get anything out of it. I didn't get payments. I didn't get spousal support. I did get child support. That's very public. What did you do? But that's it. And I only got that sometimes. I didn't get that all the time.

• 53:21Speaker 01

  But the point is, he came in screaming, livid. I was, I was so upset. He was so upset, saying, why would you get this lawyer? And that's the... The point of what I was this long story of me coming to tell you, I did not know. You got a lawyer. You told me the lawyer came from so and so. All I knew was to go to so and so's counterpart and get another lawyer recommendation. So the question was, how did you learn? And then these lessons that we've worked our way through. The fucking hard way. I always learned by my counterparts, which are men, and they're not always the most scrupulous. But I've navigated my way just to kind of do a quid pro quo, or even just kind of to hold.

• 54:03Speaker 01

  You know, they say ten toes down. I've had to hang on ten toes down. And I learned every time, okay, if they do this, you do this. And I've also learned lots of times in the business, every single time that I did something that someone taught me, I was a bitch. I was impossible. Women don't do that. You are costing too much. Why would you do this? But I learned it from them, them meaning the men, them meaning the partner, them meaning the husband, whoever it was at the time, the senator, the this, the that. I learned it from someone else. And then when I came around, they're always yelling about, why would you do this? This costs so much. This is overkill. So you were gonna overkill me. And what was I gonna do? Just sign on the dotted line? Lie down.

• 54:47Speaker 01

  So that's why I said, read the fine print. And that's why I say, even though I've gone through so, I've been through so many experiences with these people and these guys. I also wouldn't have it any other way. I've had the best teachers in some of these guys. And some of them have not been so scrupulous. That too has been a teacher for me. And some of the lessons that I've learned, and everybody knows that. Everybody knows now, like, don't mess with Kimora. She's gonna come in and tell you how it is. Oh, I think that's your reputation. For sure. I've learned it the hard way, and I've learned it from being, you know, BSed through so much that you have to eventually speak up and say, I'm not gonna take that. Has it hardened you, do you think? Oh, my gosh, I am, yes. But I am a tourist.

• 55:29Speaker 01

  So I think I have a hard shell and inside, if you're able to get in there, is a softer. But it takes a bit, right? It's not like. That's why I've been married several times and I have all my kids. I believe in love. I try again. If you ask me to marry you right now, Emma, I would say yes. You're married already, but I would say yes. I'll send you my lawyer's details. You know, you know?

• 55:49Speaker 01

  I would, I try and I believe in it. And then sometimes things come up. And it's okay. Don't be afraid to restart. Don't be afraid. And I've had this conversations with many, many of our, our friends that are good friends in common. It's okay. It's okay that you thought you had the relationship of life, honey. Drop it on the floor and drop him too.

• 56:05Emma Grede?

  Drop it.

• 56:06Speaker 01

  Don't be afraid of, you know, your mistakes and know what you're going to tolerate. And another thing, you will be surprised how many times you, to you, it's to you how it feels. Because to you, an affair might be a big deal and to your neighbor, it might not. Different women accept different things. I learned early on what I wasn't going to accept. And so I had to get the hell out. I had to like move the hell around. Everyone doesn't feel like that. Some people, I'm like, can you under, do you understand that he was doing all of this? Look at all these pictures. And they're like, my dear, calm down. I've learned the hard way through many of these, many of these lessons. I love them all. I'm very, very thankful and very, very humbled, humble. I'm grateful. I wouldn't have it any other way.

• 56:48Speaker 01

  And one thing about Kimora, in all of that reputation, they don't say Kimora is a liar.

• 56:53Emma Grede?

  No.

• 56:54Speaker 01

  They don't say Kimora is a liar.

• 56:55Emma Grede?

  No, they don't.

• 56:56Speaker 01

  So if Kimora said you stole it or Kimora said you cheated it, you cheated it. And Kimora has receipts. I'm the queen. I'm the queen of receipts. And so are some of our friends and you know what I mean, right? We are documenters.

• 57:10Emma Grede?

  You're nothing without documentary makers.

• 57:12Speaker 01

  Don't play with us.

• 57:13Emma Grede?

  You keep the facts, you keep the files, you keep it all.

• 57:16Speaker 01

  And you, I learned. And I learned when to let that go and I learned when to hold on, right? You learn these things. Just keep it tucked away in your pocket.

• 57:23Emma Grede?

  I'm interested to understand what having like this big life and this big career that you've had for so long now. Now, what does success even feel like to you in this chapter of your life?

• 57:35Speaker 01

  It's hard to measure like success. I think it is. When other people come up to me and say, "You've made a difference in my life," or "I read your book," "I made a book, Fabulosity, years ago." And it has so much of me in it, and all of my anecdotes and all these things. When someone says, "I read your book, I saw your show, I heard this interview that you did, and it helped me start a business, get out of an abusive relationship, get out of an unfair, unjust situation, start a new business, start a new relationship, get married, get out of a marriage," whatever these things are. When you hear of other people that have taken your tales and your journey and have made a better life for themselves,

• 58:20Speaker 01

  I think that's a good way to measure success. Like, you know, we've made it, and I can name a lot of people. I can name a lot of women that have, like, my baby fat tattoo. I think that's success, to me. That's how I measure it. My kids, when I see my kids are happy and healthy and thriving, if I can help the next person do that, and I see a lot of that in you, if I could help the next person, that is success.

• 58:44Emma Grede?

  I wonder what you aspire to now.

• 58:47Speaker 01

  I aspire to have peace. I aspire to have happiness. And I have these things, but it's a job. It's an effort. It takes an effort, right? It's not just given to you that you would have peace. It's not just given that you would have stillness. It's not just given that you would have clarity. You have to work on some of these things, especially in the chaos that we live in. So I think I aspire to have those things, and I'm building those things for myself. I aspire to have a big family. I came from a small family. I think that's why I have so many kids. I aspire to leave this place a better place than I found it. And I feel like my life, and just my being, is aspirational, right? The fact that my mom is an immigrant. She was not born in this country.

• 59:32Speaker 01

  No one else in my family, on my mom's side, was from here. The idea that you can come, that you can have nothing, and this is a story that we don't talk about now. We don't talk about now how you can make it when you had nothing. We don't talk about the immigrant families that made it. Like, now that's not a popular topic, but it's my topic. The fact that you can make something out of nothing. Remember that. And remember this place that we are in. Yes, it takes all of us, and we have to work together and do all these things, but it was built on the backs of brown people, people that look like me and you. Don't be afraid to take your place. Don't let somebody else erase your book. Don't let somebody else rewrite your history. I'm very vocal about that. And I'm not overly an activist. I need to fight everything and everybody. But if you say something I don't agree with, and we just talked about lots of these people,

• 1:00:17Speaker 01

  where are my friendlies? I don't have a problem telling you that you said that and that was screwed up. I don't have a problem telling you that that person that you're talking about, that person over there is the same as my mom over here and my family. Are you sure you're clear about what you're saying? Okay, you did that just on the stage and in the moment? Watch yourself. I don't have a problem saying that, but so many people do. So I think take every day as it comes, but know where you came from and where you're going. And don't be afraid to embrace your journey, your imperfections, but your history. Because that's how you know where you're going. They definitely say that. It's like one of those cliche things, but it's true.

• 1:00:53Emma Grede?

  It's so true. Okay, I'm moving to rapid fire. The first thing you do in the morning?

• 1:00:57Speaker 01

  Drink water for blood flow. It thins your, gets your blood going. And then I reach for my phone, which is terrible. I didn't want to say that, but that's the truth.

• 1:01:05Emma Grede?

  That's all right. You're truthful. Last thing you do at night?

• 1:01:08Speaker 01

  Oh, the last thing I do at night? Reflect. I guess it's like prayer. I reflect on my life, what you want it to be, how you go to sleep, what you're taking into that other realm of sleep and beyond. It really sticks with you and you can really do magical things in that time. So I think I reflect.

• 1:01:27Emma Grede?

  What's the best business advice you've ever ignored for a good reason?

• 1:01:31Speaker 01

  Quite a few times I have ignored, you should do that. It's going to make you a lot of money. And it just wasn't the right fit. It wasn't the right time and it was a mess in the end. I've never regretted it.

• 1:01:41Emma Grede?

  A full day with no makeup or a full day in flats?

• 1:01:44Speaker 01

  A full day with no makeup. I don't wear makeup unless I'm working. But my heels, I kind of love.

• 1:01:48Emma Grede?

  Yeah, you're a heel girl.

• 1:01:50Speaker 01

  I do wear flats though, but yeah, I love my heels.

• 1:01:52Emma Grede?

  Tell me about one of the wildest days in your life using one word. Who wrote these questions? This is a new one. Using one word, tell us about the wildest day in your life.

• 1:02:06Speaker 01

  Fucked.

• 1:02:08Emma Grede?

  Who thought of that?

• 1:02:09Speaker 01

  I don't know.

• 1:02:12Emma Grede?

  That's the best answer.

• 1:02:15Speaker 01

  Because I wanted to be like, fucking chaotic, fucking hilarious. Just like, how do I use fucking in a word, one word?

• 1:02:23Speaker 01

  That's for the good and bad.

• 1:02:25Emma Grede?

  I just listen, I'm fully taking it.

• 1:02:27Speaker 01

  Don't judge, don't judge.

• 1:02:28Emma Grede?

  Zero judgment.

• 1:02:29Speaker 01

  We're ten and we don't judge.

• 1:02:31Emma Grede?

  Okay, last question, serious question. What is a book that changed your life?

• 1:02:36Speaker 01

  So many, a book, Power of Now by Eckhart Tolle. Don't Believe Everything You Think is a more modern one, easy, easy read.

• 1:02:44Emma Grede?

  Power of Now is like an all time, you know, great one.

• 1:02:48Speaker 01

  I remember back then Eckhart was our friend and we took Eckhart to Oprah.

• 1:02:52Emma Grede?

  Now.

• 1:02:53Speaker 01

  And she became his like guru. And then she did like a book club and she did all these things and then he blew up.

• 1:02:59Emma Grede?

  But I mean, that's how I discovered him through Oprah.

• 1:03:01Speaker 01

  So essentially you introduced us to Eckhart.

• 1:03:04Emma Grede?

  A thousand percent. Again, all roads lead back to Kimora.

• 1:03:07Speaker 01

  Russell's guru, it was our guru at the time. And he was a transformational person.

• 1:03:12Emma Grede?

  Yes.

• 1:03:12Speaker 01

  So simple.

• 1:03:12Emma Grede?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:13Speaker 01

  But so transformational.

• 1:03:14Emma Grede?

  So genius.

• 1:03:15Speaker 01

  We made that introduction.

• 1:03:16Emma Grede?

  There you go, I'll take that one. Amazing, Kimora, thank you so much.

• 1:03:19Speaker 01

  Thank you for having me, Emma. Just mesmerizing.

• 1:03:28Emma Grede?

  If you're loving this podcast, be sure to click follow on your favorite listening platform. While you're there, give us a review and a five star rating and share an episode you loved with a friend. You'll be so grateful. A Spy with Emma Grede is presented by Odyssey. I'm your host, Emma Grede. Executive producer, Ashley McShan. Derek Brown. And me. Our executive producers from Odyssey, Leah Reese Dennis, Asha Saluja, Lauren Legrosso. Producer KK Sublime. Stephen Key is our senior producer. Sound design and engineering by Bill Schultz. Angela Peluso is our booker. Original music by Charles Black. Video production by Evan Cox. Kurt Courtney. Andrew Steele. And Carlos Delgado. Social media by Olivia Homan, Catherine Bale.

• 1:04:12Emma Grede?

  Special thanks to Brittany Smith, Sydney Ford, my teams at The Lead Company and WME. Maura Curran, Josephina Francis, Hilary Schuff, Eric Donnelly, Kate Hutchinson Rose, Tim Meekle, Shaun Cherry and Lauren Viera. If you have questions for me, you can DM me at aspirewithemmagreed. Greed is spelt G R E D E. That's aspire, A S P I R E with M A greed. Or you can submit a question to me on my website, emmagreed.me.