The Most Valuable Skill In The Modern World – George Mack

George Mack is a writer, marketer and an entrepreneur. If you found yourself trapped in a South American prison, who's the first person you'd call? The person you named is likely the highest-agency individual in your life. So, what exactly makes high-agency people so valuable, and what essential skills can you learn from them to apply to your own life? Expect to learn what high agency is and what makes people with high agency so special, who the apex example of a high agency person is, the one question you should ask yourself to find the person with the most high agency in your life, the 4 key skills of a high agency person, the core techniques of some one who is high agency and much more… 00:00 What Is High Agency? 12:25 Examples Of High Agency 19:29 High Agency People 24:50 The Education System Of Today 32:51 The Spectrum Of High Agency 40:37 Most High Agency Person In History 49:16 What Is The Opposite Of High Agency? 56:10 What Are Rumination Traps? 1:06:09 The Impact Of Specificity 1:14:12 Dangers Of Cynicism 1:18:03 Beliefs And Values High Agency People Focus On 1:24:25 The Key To Being Well-Liked 1:31:34 Strategies For High Agency Living 1:39:25 How To Overcome The Fear Of Rejection 1:46:27 The High Agency Story Of The Patels 1:49:28 Why George Is Passionate About High Agency 1:55:44 Where To Find George - Get $350 off the Pod 4 Ultra at https://eightsleep.com/modernwisdom (use code MODERNWISDOM) Get the best bloodwork analysis in America at https://functionhealth.com/modernwisdom Get a Free Sample Pack of all LMNT Flavours with your first purchase at https://drinklmnt.com/modernwisdom Get a 20% discount on the best supplements from Momentous at https://livemomentous.com/modernwisdom - Read George's essay at http://highagency.com - Get access to every episode 10 hours before YouTube by subscribing for free on Spotify - https://spoti.fi/2LSimPn or Apple Podcasts - https://apple.co/2MNqIgw Get my free Reading List of 100 life-changing books here - https://chriswillx.com/books/ Try my productivity energy drink Neutonic here - https://neutonic.com/modernwisdom - Get in touch in the comments below or head to... Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/chriswillx Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/chriswillx Email: https://chriswillx.com/contact/

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Chris Williamson?

  This is a long time coming, I think. Agency since we've been talking is the topic, the thing that we've both been obsessed with the most. So introduce people to it. What's high agency?

• 0:12George Mack?

  High agency is, in my opinion, the most under discussed and most important idea in, let's say, the 21st century. It's one of those ideas that once you see it, you can't quite unsee it. It's it's everywhere. But the problem with it is it's quite hard to define. And there's that um, Justice Potter Stewart line of around when he was trying to find pornography. When he was asked in a government inquiry, can you define pornography? And he came back with the ultimate reply of, well, I can't define it, but I know it when I see it. So in lieu of the episode today, I know you rent out all these beautiful studios. I wanted to be the first guest ever to bring some props.

• 0:51Chris Williamson?

  You brought props.

• 0:51George Mack?

  To kind of get people to experience high agency and then we can define it with words.

• 0:55Chris Williamson?

  All right, cool.

• 0:56George Mack?

  First off is high agency in a meme.

• 1:00Chris Williamson?

  Okay.

• 1:01George Mack?

  So as you can see here, you have person A and person B. And essentially, for the people that are listening, you have two people trapped on a desert island, identical people, but with two different fundamental frames of reality. One is using the wood to get help. The other is using the wood to kind of escape the island. And you kind of see this idea that two people with exact same fundamental realities, but a completely different, like, low agency here, high agency here. So you see high agency in a meme there. Then, and this one was quite difficult to get printed in London without people asking questions, is high agency.

• 1:42George Mack?

  High agency in a in a moment. So again, for the people listening, you have a series of Nazis saluting to Hitler in 1936. And you have this guy in red here, who's believed, there's debate who it is, but he's believed to be a guy called August Landmasser. What I love about his story was he originally, like, most people have this idea that when Nazi Germany comes around, that they're going to be the one that puts Anne Frank in their house and stands up. But realistically, we're way more likely to be these individuals here. And according to the story, August was part of the Nazi party, kind of went along with the LARP because it kind of made sense, fell in love with a Jewish woman and very much,

• 2:26George Mack?

  okay, began to hit an agency test with reality. And you see all these Nazis saluting at once, and he's the one guy with his arms crossed. He ends up getting punished for marrying a German woman, ends up in a concentration camp, she dies in the concentration camp, but there's just that beauty of every single person saluting as a Nazi and him there with his arms crossed just beautifully signifies high agency in a moment.

• 2:53George Mack?

  Next thing I would like to run through is we have two videos. So one, which is high agency in a video, and another which is low agency in a video.

• 3:03Chris Williamson?

  Okay, so this is Sasquatch Music Festival 2009, Guy Starts Dance Party.

• 3:10George Mack?

  So for the people listening at home, there's this absolute nut job on a hill, dancing like a madman, and the whole crowd is looking at him like he's lost his mind.

• 3:19Chris Williamson?

  One guy's joined.

• 3:20George Mack?

  One guy's joined.

• 3:21Chris Williamson?

  He starts dancing with him.

• 3:23George Mack?

  Yes. And slowly but surely, people begin to join the dance party more and more throughout the video.

• 3:34George Mack?

  But before you know it, you begin to see the whole crowd who go from

• 3:37Chris Williamson?

  Fifteen people now.

• 3:38George Mack?

  Judging him to joining.

• 3:40Chris Williamson?

  Oh my god. Two minutes in, it's 150 people. And then toward the end, there's no one sat down. There's only a few people sat down.

• 3:52George Mack?

  So, yeah, that's high agency in a video. And just to contrast this now, the next video in terms of getting people to actually experience it is low agency in a video from Derren Brown.

• 4:03Speaker 02

  But they were actually taking part in a compliance test.

• 4:10Speaker 02

  The three people on the left are actors. They've been briefed to stand or sit when they hear this.

• 4:18Speaker 02

  Everyone else that's brought in is a genuine shortlisted applicant. They've been given no instructions other than to fill out their forms.

• 4:27Speaker 02

  My team and I were secretly watching from another room.

• 4:48Speaker 02

  The more socially compliant a person is, the more they're likely to look to others for signs of how to behave.

• 4:54Speaker 03

  This is going to be your spot.

• 4:56Speaker 02

  And the more people, the greater the pressure to join in. In this case, whether to stand... ...or sit.

• 5:15Chris Williamson?

  So funny how the third guy's now just taking the brunt.

• 5:16Speaker 02

  Those people that didn't follow the crowd?

• 5:22Chris Williamson?

  Oh, she just cracked on.

• 5:24Speaker 02

  I think you have to lose Amy, sadly.

• 5:26Chris Williamson?

  Oh, so this was a test of compliance?

• 5:31Speaker 02

  Once we had a full house...

• 5:33Chris Williamson?

  Very good.

• 5:34George Mack?

  Before you know it...

• 5:35Speaker 02

  We got rid of the actors.

• 5:36George Mack?

  Yeah, before you know it, they remove the actors.

• 5:38Chris Williamson?

  Oh.

• 5:39George Mack?

  And you just have 10 people standing up and down.

• 5:42Speaker 02

  Leaving us with a room full of compliant people.

• 5:43George Mack?

  To the sound of a bell. And I love that video because, yeah, it perfectly encapsulates low agency where... And it's so easy to fall into of just looking around at other people, assuming that they know best, and then realising that all the other people were just looking around at other people. And it's this giant game of Emperor's New Clothes. And then you die and you realise it was one giant larp.

• 6:04Chris Williamson?

  Hmm.

• 6:05George Mack?

  Live actual role play the entire time.

• 6:07Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, and I suppose that memetic sense has got implications that you can be the first mover, both to start something which snowballs down or to stop something which is snowballing right now.

• 6:20George Mack?

  100%. So, finally, in terms of the high agency...

• 6:25Chris Williamson?

  This is like show and tell. Here's something I brought from home.

• 6:27George Mack?

  One we've discussed a lot of times, so...

• 6:29Chris Williamson?

  Here we go.

• 6:30George Mack?

  This is the high agency question. So for people listening at home... The way to identify the highest agency person in your life is if you woke up here and you have sweat with dirt and dirt with sweat all over your body. For the people listening, this is a photo of a prison cell. Yes, you're not drinking days and you've woken up in a third world prison cell. And you have a phone passed under your door and you can call one person to try and get you out of there. Who is that? And everybody weirdly has this kind of idea in their head of who they would call in this scenario. And when you actually begin to grill people about who they would call,

• 7:15George Mack?

  it's not the amount that they bench press, it's not the car that they drive, it's not the novels that they've read, it's not the family background they're from. It's maybe sometimes, if they're the royal family, then maybe. It's it's something else and that something is is high agency. And yeah, I'm looking forward to the chat today because we can go into more of the specifics of it. But the problem, once you've actually begin to experience it, you get more of an understanding. But then the real problem that I kind of struggled with is how do you actually? It's a je ne sais quoi, like it's difficult to describe in words, like what is, what is it? So I kind of created this like model here, which I call the high agency spectrum.

• 7:59George Mack?

  Spectrum being the operative word. Yes.

• 8:04George Mack?

  So essentially, imagine you have two doors behind them, but all the people you would call when stuck in a third world jail. And at the other end of the spectrum is peak low agency is the last people that you would call when stuck in a third world jail. If you were stuck in like a paper bag, you wouldn't call them, right? And what is the fundamental difference between these two groups? Because if you looked at them on paper, you go, there's no gender, race, age, politics, wealth, career title, LinkedIn profile, like what specifically is it? And I was stuck on this idea for years, like trying to chip away, chip away, chip away, chip away.

• 8:45George Mack?

  And essentially kind of came to the conclusion of like, this is actually the most simple way of defining high agency is.

• 8:54George Mack?

  Are they happening to life? Or is life happening to them? So what you'll ultimately, um, anybody who you would call to break you out of a third world jail, you would define as happening to life. The people that you would be least likely to break you out of a third world jail are the ones that life is happening to them. Um, and then once you begin to see that spectrum, it's such a more simple like Occam's razor of really understanding by agency. And fundamentally, this isn't, it can be like a nice, okay, this is a cool like self-help concept. But actually, agency is bigger than that. Out of the six to seven million species on earth, human beings are the only ones capable of agency.

• 9:36George Mack?

  In the known universe of what we know, and by the way, we only know this via agency. Uh, we are the only thing that we know of capable of agency. Um, even today, like we are sat in a studio in London. And I was listening to David Deutsch explain this concept of, we're in London today and it's only thanks to agency, because it's December right now in London, that me and you aren't dead within two to three hours. Because it's the clothes that we wear, human agency. It's the heating here, like the UK itself is a product of agency, of human agency. Because without clothing, which we kind of

• 10:19George Mack?

  born into and assume it's always been a thing, but no, it was the result of human agency. Without heating, again, another thing that we just take completely for granted, the UK would not be possible. So he argues that this idea that we're going to, um, go to Mars and terraform it and shape it, that it's actually a livable habitat. The UK is already that.

• 10:39Chris Williamson?

  Mm hmm.

• 10:39George Mack?

  Nobody should feasibly live here, but it's just human agency.

• 10:43Chris Williamson?

  Hmm. It's agency all the way down.

• 10:45George Mack?

  All the way down. And what, that's why, once you see it, you can't fundamentally unsee it because it's the only, it's the, not the only thing that makes human beings unique. But we are the only species that is fundamentally capable of happening to life.

• 10:59Chris Williamson?

  Why is it so important to you? It's an interesting definition. I can see why you happening to life, not life happening to you is important. Why do you care? Why is it so crucial? Why is it the most important idea of the 21st century to you?

• 11:23George Mack?

  I think like growing up in the UK, you naturally potentially have a default low agency setting. I remember when I first heard the idea, it was Eric Weinstein on Tim Ferriss's podcast, and I had to pull over the car and like write this down. I was like, oh, okay, this kind of begins to explain so much of the world and so much of my personal world. And then, as I mentioned, once you begin to see it, you can't unsee it. You see it every single way. And I've got some examples on the boards that I'll come on to. But it's so important to me because once you realize, you know, your line of like skill issue, everything is just skill issue.

• 12:04Chris Williamson?

  Everything's a fundamental issue.

• 12:05George Mack?

  Everything is basically an agency issue. Like when you actually, one of the fundamental beliefs, I think, of around high agency is that all problems are solvable. And once you begin to take that on board, as long as it doesn't defy the laws of physics, like this isn't self-help, it's physics, all problems are solvable with enough knowledge.

• 12:26Chris Williamson?

  What are some good examples of high agency?

• 12:29George Mack?

  Okay.

• 12:32George Mack?

  So using the spectrum, I've got two examples that you're gonna like.

• 12:37Chris Williamson?

  Here we go.

• 12:38George Mack?

  So on the right-hand side of the high-agency spectrum, we have SpaceX. So the recent Chopsticks landing. So SpaceX starts with Elon selling PayPal and deciding, as you do, to just get into rocket science. And rather than go to university, he decides that that's a painfully slow download process to learn. So just gets a load of rocket science books and starts like happening to life, creates SpaceX. And one professor, SpaceX was this early startup, not the juggernaut that it is today, the best rocket scientist professor, I believe, in America. He goes, I can't believe it.

• 13:20George Mack?

  Like five of my top 10 students are working at this company called SpaceX. He goes, I need to meet the guy that runs that. So Elon arranges the interview and this guy has a load of questions for Elon. What are you doing? And immediately he realizes the reason why Elon's taking this meeting is to find out who the other five were.

• 13:39George Mack?

  Boom. So anyway, it keeps, obviously goes through all the ups and downs and you end up with a rocket reverse landing, catching with the chopsticks and reducing the legs that's needed, the amount of repairs that's needed as a result of massively, massively accelerate the human's ability to happen to life, to be able to escape the planet.

• 13:59Chris Williamson?

  Just on the SpaceX thing, Bill Perkins intro'd me to one of the guys that works for Elon. And this guy bet his entire career on the belly flop maneuver. Have I told you this story?

• 14:09George Mack?

  No.

• 14:10Chris Williamson?

  So when these rockets re-enter, because the purpose is for them to be reused, they're coming into land. They're not going to land sideways. You're not going to put thrusters on the side of it. You're going to land it upright like this. But the problem of bringing it into land like that is that this is aerodynamically the one that has the least drag. So they thought, right, okay, how can we use air friction to reduce the speed of re-entry whilst also still landing the thing upright so that we get to use the same boosters to slow it down that we used to get it to take off? And he created the belly flop maneuver. So if you watch it when it comes in, it's coming in sideways like this. And then only at the last moment does it rotate.

• 14:48Chris Williamson?

  It stops. So this guy, apparently the first time that it ever happened, like if it hadn't worked, and he'd left, I can't remember where, NASA, some huge, you know, illustrious organization, bet his entire career, all of his reputation, and that this new company would have been a laughing stock of the entire industry. And it didn't work. Fucking cool.

• 15:06George Mack?

  Wow. All problems are solvable, right?

• 15:08Chris Williamson?

  Yep.

• 15:08George Mack?

  I say that. Let's now contrast that with, do you recognize this on the left?

• 15:15Chris Williamson?

  It's a train in the UK?

• 15:16George Mack?

  Yes. It's not just any train in the UK, Christopher. It's Northern Rail's trains. So for people outside the UK, these would be the trains that, you have Northern Rail in the northeast, right? It's not just a northwest thing. Cool. So I would have got on this coming from the northwest of the UK. And just to contrast SpaceX, obviously, at the other end of the high agency spectrum, and Northern Rail at the other end of the high agency spectrum. So what I wanted to, I did bring it just to read it out. So this is a recent inquiry into Northern Rail. So you have the mayor of Manchester sitting down with the head of the trade unions for Northern Rail, or the people that work quite high up at Northern Rail. And throughout the last few years, anybody who's experienced Northern Rail, it's too expensive.

• 16:02George Mack?

  It, there's trains getting cancelled constantly, there's delays, et cetera. So they're doing an inquiry into what's going on. It starts with the mayor. I've heard you're still using fax machines to do these things. Can that possibly be true? It's very much true, Chair. How? How on earth is that the case in 2024? Well, that's a very reasonable question. It's our challenge to get rid of them. We have plans to get rid of them. You could do it tomorrow. We absolutely could. Are you going to do it tomorrow? We're not going to do it tomorrow. Why? Because the tools we use to get information and messages to our crew rely on faxes amazingly. We will get there in the end because we're forced to because fax technology in telecoms turns, turns off.

• 16:46George Mack?

  Our plan that we're putting forward, anyway, it cuts in, it's like how, the mayor goes on to say like, how have we poured millions of millions of privatised money into this and it's still, we're still using fax machines in 2024? And he goes on and talks about, yeah, we're going to get around to it, we're going to get around to it. And it just ends with, I mean, I personally don't think many people watching this will consider replacing fax machines as an issue as depth of depth and complexity. So just the two contrasts here of fax machines on the trains in the UK and reverse, like landing a rocket is two complete polar opposite ends of the spectrum when it comes to travel and logistics. From our insight into the British National Health Service through UCF,

• 17:26George Mack?

  we both know that the NHS still heavily, heavily relies not only on faxes, faxes between departments and not only faxes, the whole thing is run on Windows XP.

• 17:38George Mack?

  When, I don't even know how you have access. I don't even know how machines are able to run Windows XP anymore. There's an incredible Twitter account at the minute called Days of NHS Spending. You sent me this, you sent me this the other day. What was it? The Palm Jamara Beach? Yeah, so the Palm Jamara Beach in Dubai, it's a tweet where it talks about it's the most expensive, I think, physical infrastructure ever built. And it equates to 30 days of NHS spending.

• 18:09George Mack?

  And he's just constantly, anytime anybody talks about a number that's going to be saved or a crazy amount of spend, it's just constantly quantified into the number of days of NHS spending. Absurd.

• 18:20Chris Williamson?

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• 19:02Chris Williamson?

  to not have an actively cooled and heated mattress topper. It is a total game changer. Best of all, they have a 30-night sleep trial, so you can buy it and sleep on it for 29 days. If you don't like it, they'll give you your money back. Plus, they ship internationally. Right now, you can get $350 off the Pod4Ultra by going to the link in the description below or heading to eightsleep.com/moderndwism using the code MODERNWISDOM at checkout. That's E-I-G-H-T sleep.com/moderndwism and MODERNWISDOM at checkout. What about, what about examples of agency? Both of us have kind of become addicted, I guess, to accumulating these stories of people that are high agency. For me, Sir Adrian Paul

• 19:42Chris Williamson?

  Jezz Lane Katon Duatt, the Unkillable Soldier, Sir Ernest Shackleton, that attempted the first Antarctic crossing, 1914, the Forgotten Highlander, Alistair Urquhart, Victor Frankl, Man's Search for Meaning in some ways too. I had that recent one, that Amo Koyvenen guy, the dude that took 30, an entire platoon's worth of meth and outran Russians for a month. He even stopped his resting heart rate was 200 bpm and he weighed 50 kilos. Who are some of yours?

• 20:13George Mack?

  Well, brings me on to my, my next one.

• 20:16Chris Williamson?

  Okay.

• 20:16George Mack?

  So we have two contrasts here.

• 20:22George Mack?

  One end of the spectrum, we have the US Department of Education on the low agency end, which it's something around twenty to thirty thousand dollars they spend on students per year and they are ranked, it's the highest in the world, the US spends on education. Meanwhile, they're ranked between twentieth and thirty fifth, both for literacy and numeracy. So spending so much money, getting so little out of it, it's a wild start of something along the lines of over fifty percent of Americans have lower than sixth grade literacy. Yep. So on the right end is one of the best books I've ever listened to. It's about an hour long.

• 21:04George Mack?

  And I'll just open up a question first, because it's completely reset this question for me, which is what is a ten year old capable of? And this book kind of answers that question. So it's called Don't Tell Me I Can't. It's written by a fourteen year old at the time called Cole Summers. And essentially, just to contrast it to the Department of Education, it starts with him very early on, around about five or six years old, and his dad served in the military and had an issue in training that basically left him disabled and with injuries for the rest of his life. And one day, he's getting raised by his dad and he's about to hit the age of going to

• 21:48George Mack?

  primary school and they see these kids like misbehaving and saying some like awful shit outside of their house and they decide, you know what, we're gonna, we're gonna homeschool him. And he opts in for that decision, he goes, I don't want to hang out with those kids. Unfortunately, his dad then ends up needing lots of operations throughout his homeschooling. And he's, he, one day, he's kind of sat there, his dad's recovering from all these surgeries and he says to his dad, how do people get rich? And his dad just replies, I imagine at the time, on so much medication and just trying to keep his kid busy, he goes, I don't know, because they're a poor family, goes, maybe go and watch some Warren Buffett videos on YouTube.

• 22:30George Mack?

  So a six year old goes and starts watching Warren Buffett, Charlie Munger videos on YouTube, consumes everything about Warren Buffett and Charlie Munger, understands like Munger's iron laws of prescription, starts learning everything about business and compound interest. All but for himself on YouTube. Then at the age of seven, the age of seven just goes, well, I'll just start my first company. Seven year old starts his first company, selling rabbits to the local restaurants. Gets it up to a thousand dollars in monthly recurring revenue. And that's real revenue, not like a Shopify bullshit screenshot, right? A thousand dollars for a seven year old. At the age of eight, he then learns about Amazon not paying tax.

• 23:15George Mack?

  How is Amazon not paying tax? So he starts just teaching himself the tax code on the online at the age of eight. At the age of nine, he buys his first vehicle, like a car. What's he do with it? So for the for the farm. So it's not him, but he owns the vehicle, but people are working on it. Yeah. And at the age of 10, he buys his first house for $10,000. Watches YouTube videos, learns like flooring, how to do the wiring, completely flips the house, makes a profit on the house. And has he got any help? Is anyone assisting him with this? I don't I don't know the ins and outs of that specifically. I've got to probably do more research on that. But the book is is incredible. And there's a bit in there where he goes to scouts because he's still interacting with the kids.

• 24:00George Mack?

  But what the crazy thing is, he didn't know that that wasn't normal. He was just going online. And he goes to scouts and he's chatting to the other kids about like what they've been up to that day. And they say, yeah, we've just been remembering the planets and like, so we have Earth here and Mars and da, da, da, da, da. And he's like, when are we ever going to use this? He goes, what about you? What have you been up to? And he chats them about like payroll, tax compliance. It's pretty much this nine year old at scouts. But not that, I think the key asterisks on that story is not that everybody should, not every 10 year old should be buying their own house. But it makes you question like the education model that we discussed earlier. And I think that's probably one of the biggest inputs of low agency into people.

• 24:43George Mack?

  And his story in particular, yeah, makes you question, well, what is a young person capable of?

• 24:50Chris Williamson?

  Well, I suppose the education system in both America and in the UK, I don't know if there's anywhere that it isn't. Very much life is happening to you.

• 25:00George Mack?

  Yes.

• 25:01Chris Williamson?

  There is no you happening. You're not, you know, until, when's the first time in the UK school system that you get to choose your sort of speciality? So thirteen, it's after year nine, I think. Remember you're going to pick your GCSEs that you're going to focus on. And then from there, you pick your AS, you pick your A levels, then you pick your degree. So up until that point, up until the age of twelve, thirteen, thirteen, you're just on a set of train tracks. You don't even get to discriminate what you learn, let alone how you learn. In broad strokes and then in specific strokes, it's like, well, this is the sequence. This is how the curriculum is put together. And yeah, what's your thing about the behaviours that you were rewarded for in early life are the ones that you get punished for in later life?

• 25:42George Mack?

  Yes, like in, in school, if you copy people, you're punished and given a detention. In life, if you copy people, you're labelled a successful franchisee owner. But there's like endless amounts of those behaviours where a lot of adult life is about, from my experience at least, seems to be about unlearning behaviours that happened during school. When you actually go down the rabbit hole of the education system, like this Prussian model that came over. And it was primarily created for, to create industrial factory workers. And it still looks like that to this very day. You have bells that ring.

• 26:21Chris Williamson?

  They use the same bells in British schools that they were using in the factories. Like the most Pavlovian, early on conditioning.

• 26:28George Mack?

  Fucking wild. You have, you have somebody who's in charge of the classroom. You have people moved from cell to cell.

• 26:39Chris Williamson?

  Uniform or?

• 26:40George Mack?

  Uniform.

• 26:41Chris Williamson?

  Yeah.

• 26:41George Mack?

  And also you're told when you can eat. You're told when you can go to the bathroom. You have to ask for permission to go to the bathroom. Peter Thiel, I was thinking about this the other day. He has this question of what do, or what does, what opinion do you hold that few people agree with you on? And this idea of trying to get you to become an independent thinker, which is quite a difficult question to answer. I certainly struggle with it. But there's a flip of that question, which is, what does essentially most people agree upon, but nothing's changing. And I think it's the education system is definitely not a good thing. It's obviously not necessarily, there's worse options, right, before before it existed.

• 27:23George Mack?

  But I can't think of anything that as many people agree upon that this things doesn't prepare you for real life. And a good indicator of a training system, I was thinking about this, a good indicator of a training system is how closely it mimics the actual thing. So driving lessons are incredible because you're literally driving and it's painful. But meanwhile, school, how much do you remember from school?

• 27:44Chris Williamson?

  Essentially zero.

• 27:46George Mack?

  Of, I was thinking about, you know, who I'd love to meet, whoever is in charge of foreign languages in the UK, like the department level, I've never met anybody who's learnt Spanish, French from school, apart from like bonjour, bonjour or hola, that's it. But we still keep going.

• 28:04Chris Williamson?

  Dedicated two hours a week for two years to it.

• 28:06George Mack?

  Yeah.

• 28:08Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, it's bizarre. I

• 28:12Chris Williamson?

  I have an issue with the early on education system. I know that you've got a massive issue with university as well. For me, I've found university to be useful as like a crash course in socialization, but

• 28:30Chris Williamson?

  I, it feels like you've ordered a main course that tasted like dog shit and you're like, yeah, yeah, yeah. But the gravy that came along with it or the plate that it was put on, the plate that this dog shit food was served on, that was an enjoyable experience. I took a lot away from that plate. It's very well designed, great quality, really, I remember it. But yeah, it does feel like if you're trying to create a highly agentic populace,

• 28:56Chris Williamson?

  school isn't exactly the best preparation.

• 28:59George Mack?

  Have you seen, I need to double verify these studies. I'd be interested to replicate them. There's a guy called, I think, Dr. Land, who worked for NASA and designed these creative thinking tests to basically gauge how creative somebody is.

• 29:16George Mack?

  And the way they would do that is ask, for example, a number of solutions, different types of solutions they come up with, how they vary from everybody else's solutions, things like that. And a five year old, an average of the fifteen hundred that they surveyed scored like ninety eight percent on creativity, kind of follows up every five years and it just, it looks like the reverse of Bitcoin's price. It's just down, down, down, down, down. And, you know, we spoke on the previous show of the average person dies at twenty five and is buried until seventy five. But the follow up of the study, the twenty five year olds, two percent was the, two percent of them scored as like creative thinkers. And it kind of makes sense when you're put through this model of wrong, right answer, set curriculum for you, Pavlovian.

• 30:01Chris Williamson?

  Don't think outside of the box. Don't question the question ever.

• 30:04George Mack?

  That doesn't go down well at schools.

• 30:05Chris Williamson?

  No. Why do we need to learn this? What's the point of doing that? No, you'd be labeled a disruptive kid. You'd be a bad student. You'd be a bad student if you ask questions about the question.

• 30:14George Mack?

  My brother tells me this funny story of when he was at school and he was probably not the most well behaved kid at school. But one day he was like flicking around in the history books and came fascinated by like communism in Russia and China and all these people going down this bad ideology. And the teacher like goes, what are you doing? He goes, I'm just absolutely fascinated by this, sir. He goes, that's great, but that's not on the curriculum. And just went back to something about Henry the Eighth, completely changed the curriculum. But it is fascinating that I do think we're at this momentous period of time where you now have chat GPT, Claude, all these AI tools coming in where even the work now is just completely redundant. Even this model of preparing for an exam, like

• 30:57George Mack?

  talk about feedback loops. You don't find out your exam results to even, forget even judging exams itself. Not finding out your exam result for three months is such a terrible feedback loop within itself.

• 31:08Chris Williamson?

  Yeah. Rory Sutherland told me this really funny parable. So he said,

• 31:17Chris Williamson?

  A copywriter, a graphic designer and an account executive step onto a plane together. And they open up the overhead locker and a genie comes out. He says, God, I've been locked in there for so long. Thank you. Thank you for giving me. I'll give you one, one wish each. So the designer says, I think I'd like to have Da Vinci's life. I like to have his skills, his ability to represent things graphically. He says, done, the way he goes. And then the copywriter comes over, says, I think, I think I'd like to live like Hemingway did. You know, the women, the lifestyle, the writing ability, oh, the writing ability.

• 32:00Chris Williamson?

  Done. The account executive comes over and says, what, what would you like? And he says, I'd like those two guys back. We've got a meeting in two and a half hours.

• 32:11George Mack?

  That's fucking, that's so Rory. Well, off topic, but I have to include it. There's the on top of plane experiments. Charlie Munger tells that one of he goes on a plane, terrorists hijack the plane and say, right, you've got one last dying wish before we blow this sucker up. Think wisely. Then he goes, can I tell you about the beauty of Costco's business model?

• 32:37Chris Williamson?

  There's an equivalent about aliens come down to earth and they say, humanity, we can do whatever you want. You can ask us any question and some idiot that listens to podcasts from the back shouts, what's your morning routine?

• 32:50George Mack?

  Fuck me.

• 32:51Chris Williamson?

  Okay, good. What about, I mentioned some of my sort of real peak high agency people. You've accumulated one with this guy that was self-taught. Is there anyone else that comes to mind?

• 33:02George Mack?

  Yes, let me, um, let me skip ahead.

• 33:06Chris Williamson?

  Skip ahead.

• 33:06George Mack?

  Just before I go on to that one, we have, I just wanted to show you this because it's just fucking cold to us. If you, this is the topography of tears. Have you seen this?

• 33:15Chris Williamson?

  The topography of tears?

• 33:17George Mack?

  Yes.

• 33:17Chris Williamson?

  Like.

• 33:18George Mack?

  So, yeah, this photographer, I will come back onto your question, but just quickly let me blast through this. This photographer took.

• 33:26George Mack?

  Different types of tears and put them under a microscope. And here, for example, is tears of grief. Here is tears of joy. They actually look different under a microscope.

• 33:36Chris Williamson?

  Wow.

• 33:37George Mack?

  So this is, this was just a way for me to try and get this into show because it looks so cool. But like the agency example here is being at a funeral and thinking, fuck, I never got in touch for the last few years and now they're gone.

• 33:55George Mack?

  Tears of grief. At the other end, tears of joy of fuck, I'm so glad that we did that holiday together. Or I'm so glad that I arranged all those trips that I did with them. So I thought that was a, um.

• 34:08Chris Williamson?

  That's fascinating. I wonder why that's the case. I want to know what those structures are made of. I want to know what those lines are for the people that are listening. The tears of grief are much more sparse, whatever the lines, there's some kind of structure. It looks a little bit like halfway between little cells and electrical circuits. And then at the other end, the tears of joy have a lot more activity, a lot more structure in them. There's lines everywhere. And, um, I wonder what that is. We can dig deeper and come back to it.

• 34:38George Mack?

  Let me go back to your question I rudely ignored. So essentially, the, I want to come onto the most high agency person, but I just want to address like the, probably the YouTube comments at this point. So I wanted to steal, I wanted to steal man the other side. So, um, for example, life happens to people, you piece of shit. Hope you get fourth stage cancer so I can call you up and tell you to happen to life. Can't wait to tell the orphans, they just need to happen to life. And big nose twat, no, who's written that?

• 35:10Chris Williamson?

  That was just.

• 35:10George Mack?

  One of somebody from your, that's awful.

• 35:12Chris Williamson?

  I don't know. You, you do seem to have a very accurate perception of what the comments are going to be. If everyone can comment small nose twat in the, in the section below, that'd be great.

• 35:23George Mack?

  Essentially, the most apex high agency example is this guy coming up now. So.

• 35:28Chris Williamson?

  Actually, let's just linger on, let's just linger on that, that thing for a second. The, why do you think it is that conversations around being able to happen to life? Self authorship, agency, taking control. Why do you think it is that it triggers that particular immune response from people?

• 35:49George Mack?

  I think they're right. I think they're right. At the end of the day, that's why I'll come on to it in a second, but I don't want to misconvey that life doesn't happen. It definitely happens. Going back to the London example earlier, like if it wasn't for the heat, if it wasn't for the clothes that we take for granted, we'd literally be within two to three hours, hypothermia and death. So I don't think they're wrong and I think it makes sense. But then when, this is why I take it away from a self-help conversation, when you begin to go, well, does it defy the laws of physics?

• 36:29George Mack?

  In terms of knowledge creation? Well, no, it doesn't. So therefore it is possible. It doesn't mean that awful things aren't going to happen. They're almost guaranteed to happen, which is why I tried to basically update the model based off their feedback. I don't think they're wrong. So essentially it's more of a four dimensional model that the higher agency somebody has, the more, sorry, the more life is happening, sorry. The more agency that they ultimately have, which is why I wanted to come on to.

• 36:57Chris Williamson?

  So life is happening is

• 37:01Chris Williamson?

  there is a pressure up against you and there is a pressure of you leaning into it at the same time. Yeah, that's interesting. I was having this conversation. Destiny taught me this. I think I gave it some wanky me name of like the two-step theory of two-step flow potential, I think I called it, two-step theory of potential. So

• 37:21Chris Williamson?

  Destiny, I thought was kind of an interesting person to put this to because he's somebody that's from the left, but also has quite a lot of agency. In fact, I'm reading a book at the moment by Martin Seligman that has a quiz and much of the quiz is asking you questions about agency. A person steals something from a shop, what are the reasons for why they stole? Like, did they have choice? Could they have done differently, et cetera? And this is supposed to map you on the spectrum from left to right. And Destiny seems, at least when I asked him these questions, to be someone who kind of does take charge. It doesn't really sort of.

• 37:56Chris Williamson?

  Outsource to structure and environment things which are maybe of personal responsibility. And I asked him this question about, well, how do you marry the fact that people are both at the mercy of the environment around them and the authors of their own life, that you don't want to externalize your sense of control, but you also have to understand that there are limits to what you can do. And he basically describes it as having a range within which your outcomes in life, your capacities sit, and this range is determined by your genetics, the environment you're in, the time that you were born, that you could be the best guitar player in history. But if you were born before the guitar was invented, guess what?

• 38:39Chris Williamson?

  It's not happening. So he says, there is a range that you sit within, and this is determined by the environment you're in, things that are outside of your control. But within that range, everything is exclusively on you. And for some people, it's easier, for some people, it's harder. But there is a range that you sit within. And I think that that kind of marries things quite nicely. Some people, me and you, probably not going to do very well in the NBA. But within the range that we do have, football freestyle, perhaps you can get a bit further.

• 39:10George Mack?

  Yeah, I think, I think just to, on that specific point, it, it's not that problems don't happen. It's that fundamentally, all problems are solvable. So, and it all comes down to agency, like cancer, as horrific as it is, and it happens to people, it's truly fucking horrific. But it's ultimately, at a humanity level, it's an agency problem.

• 39:34Chris Williamson?

  All right, get your next, get your next slide out for the lads. In other news, this episode is brought to you by Function. Did you know that your annual physical only screens for around 20 biomarkers? That leaves a lot of gaps when it comes to understanding your health, which is why I partnered with Function. They run lab tests twice a year that monitor over 100 biomarkers. They even screen for 50 types of cancer at stage one. They've got a team of expert physicians that takes that data, puts it into a simple dashboard, and gives you actionable recommendations to improve your health and lifespan. They track everything. From your heart health to your hormone levels, thyroid function. Plus, Dr. Andrew Huberman is their scientific advisor and Dr. Mark Hyman is their chief medical officer. So you can trust that the data and insights you receive are scientifically sound and practical.

• 40:17Chris Williamson?

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• 40:37George Mack?

  The most apex high agency guy. Do you recognize this guy? Guy called Wilbur.

• 40:43Chris Williamson?

  No.

• 40:43George Mack?

  Great name. So let's just start off with life happening to him. So, smart kid, Wilbur. He wants to go to Yale University. He's about to get in. He's playing hockey one day and gets his face smashed in so badly by a bloke. It's interesting, studying history. This bloke was clearly a nutter. And guess what they used to do for nutters? They'd prescribe them cocaine.

• 41:12George Mack?

  I know a few nutters like that.

• 41:13Chris Williamson?

  Yep.

• 41:14George Mack?

  Mainly in Northern Rail over the years. So anyway, gets prescribed cocaine, smashes this guy's face in, so much so, he's bedridden for two to three years.

• 41:24Chris Williamson?

  Wow.

• 41:24George Mack?

  So Yale University's cancelled. Whilst he's bedridden, his mum is terminally ill. So he's kind of in bed, I imagine caring for her while she's in bed, back and forth. So truly, life is happening.

• 41:40George Mack?

  Wilbur, this fucking guy, man, this guy sat there in bed, asked the question, "Why can birds fly but humans can't?" What? Why is that? So just sits there in bed, getting book after book. And there's not many books back then about aerodynamics and how things can fly, but he's studying birds. Wilbur, teams up with his brother, becomes fascinated by the question and starts to move over on the spectrum a little bit over here to like happening to life.

• 42:13Chris Williamson?

  His surname is right.

• 42:14George Mack?

  Indeed, indeed. So Wilbur and Orville, his brother, they reverse from first principles.

• 42:24George Mack?

  Where is the best place with wind and sand in America? Because they need to test flight, they need to find somewhere with a soft landing and with enough wind to begin to test it. Yeah. So they get all the weather bureau consensus data, which back then there's no internet. So they're just reaching out to a local council and finding the shit. And he, um, sorry, they have all this weather data. And they've realised it's 700 miles away in Kitty Hawk. And I realised, well, they can just fly that. I was, oh no, they can't. They can't fly there, right? So this is the furthest they've ever been from home. Yeah. They go all the way down to Kitty Hawk. And the two of them, talk about happening to life, the two of them.

• 43:06George Mack?

  And by the way, back then, this is a key thing that people, I always forget about history, is that it was a mocked thing. Flying was seen as everybody who tried it failed or died. And there was poems at the time of how ridiculous it would be to even think you could fly. Like it was a, it was a joke at the time. So the two of them are seen in Kitty Hawk, right? These, imagine this, so you're looking outside your window and there's these two brothers there for hours at the outside, just like moving their arms like this, pretending they're different types of birds, just mimicking the way birds move their fucking wings. So they're there for ages, they then begin to design like a win, a wing system based off the way birds do.

• 43:47George Mack?

  The next problem that they have is they realise that all the measurements around aerodynamics that they've been given at the time from a a German fella were completely incorrect. So they have to, they build, when they go back home, they build a wind tunnel in their garage, like, um, that can go about 27 miles an hour and they're creating little objects and putting it through. And they reverse engineer, oh, everything that we know about aerodynamics is completely wrong. So they fix that problem and it's problem after problem. It's next building an engine that's light enough and you end up with a scenario.

• 44:21George Mack?

  Before they create the airplane, they have failure after failure after failure after failure after failure. Wilbur looks at his brother one day and says, no man will ever fly for a thousand years. One year later, he's up there in the airplane and flies for the first time ever. And that for me is, I think Wilbur Wright and obviously his brother Orville is the apex example of high agency and the impact it then has. Because unless you study history, you just go, well, man's always been able to fly. And you're going to know this has been since the early 1900s that we've been able to do it. The amount of times, I don't, how, how many times a week do you think about the Wright brothers?

• 44:58Chris Williamson?

  Ever since you sent me that photo, I, I encountered a situation at the, toward the start of this year, and I explained it to you, and you sent me this photo, and it must be, is it Wilbur in the plane, an Orville on the, the hill in front of him, and he's doing this?

• 45:13George Mack?

  Yeah.

• 45:14Chris Williamson?

  And he's jumping and he's got his hands in the air and this plane's off the ground. And, uh, yeah, I know that you use this to, uh, basically tyrannize your staff.

• 45:21George Mack?

  I thought, I mean, I think about, I think about it like once a week, like, it's so funny. So I'll be like staring when there's a plane going by. Once you, once you know the story, I'll be staring as a plane goes by and my girlfriend will be like, are you thinking about the Wright brothers? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because the fact that most people don't know their names, the fact there's not statues, the fact there's not a day. And that meanwhile, there's like me getting on an Emirates flight, like stressing out my fucking, it's 20 minutes late. And you're now there going, what do you mean they've not got Diet Cokes on the plane? And there's TV entertainment there. But it's just, it's just agency, like a problem that seemed completely insolvable, didn't defy the laws of physics. It was possible. And now we, we, our whole world, me and you being here today, flying into London, is purely because of these two fuckers.

• 46:00Chris Williamson?

  I kind of like that. I, I'd love to dig a bit deeper into his story, uh, and do a little bit more research around the fact that he said that a man won't fly for a thousand years, but didn't stop and then got there a year later. I've been really, really spending a lot of time thinking about not believing that you're worthy of achieving a thing and yet still managing to attain it anyway. This sort of.

• 46:27Chris Williamson?

  Make it until you fake it, basically. That you, a lot of the time, we believe that we need to have faith in a thing before we can go and do the thing. But it's an unnecessary precursor. It may make the process more enjoyable. It may make you have more confidence. It may make you more efficient in the things that you do. It may make me more effective at getting the outcomes that you need. But it's largely an unnecessary step. If we assume that what you're optimizing for is outcomes, not inputs. If you can do the outcomes, regardless of how you got there, whether you believed that you were going to do it or not, whether you thought it would be a thousand years or whether you thought it would be six months. If you do, someone could have been Wilbur, alternate universe, slightly different personality and been like, we're going to get it done in three weeks and it would have taken a year. If he'd done the same things, it's not gonna, the Cuban man won't fly for a thousand years. And it's gonna happen in a year.

• 47:12Chris Williamson?

  So just, you know, me and you talk about, we obsessed about this a lot, your birthday this summer. But the more and more that I think about it, optimizing for outcomes, not for inputs is just, it sides through everything and oddly is quite a high agency way to, to do this because the true, another element of high agency would be accepting that you live in an irrational world and that your psychology is one that is not built to be able to accurately identify how outcomes are going to come from inputs. So stop believing that you know how this is going to work and just, okay, this thing seems to be happening in whatever way. Both me and you are on ridiculous diets.

• 47:57Chris Williamson?

  Come, do you know why it works? Kind of, I can probably bro science cobble something together, some doctor probably could too. But I bet that there's maybe even more explanations for why it shouldn't work or doesn't or whatever is ridiculous. I'm like, yeah, but I feel better when I'm on it. I'm optimizing for outcomes. I'm not bothered about the mechanism. I'm not bothered about the inputs.

• 48:17George Mack?

  Yes, because fundamentally it was possible. That's the big thing. And this is, I try and say this in the least offensive way, but I think there's some truth to it. That a lot of high achievers or high agency people are often described as being on the Asperger's or autism spectrum.

• 48:35Chris Williamson?

  Spectrum.

• 48:36George Mack?

  And I think the reason behind that is that all their bottlenecks are just logistics and operations.

• 48:43George Mack?

  It's just like, just you look at someone like Elon or Zuck or somebody like that, Bezos, and a lot of it is just logistics, operations bottlenecks. Whereas for maybe people who, like myself, that go through the education system and really struggle to then break out of that way of thinking. It's creativity bottleneck. It's a emotional bottleneck is a big one of like, what will people think if I do this?

• 49:06Chris Williamson?

  Yep.

• 49:07George Mack?

  But there's so many different bottlenecks that aren't logistics and operations, but for people who have a little touch of tism or the Asperger's.

• 49:15Chris Williamson?

  What's the opposite of high agency?

• 49:19George Mack?

  It would be, it would be low agency. It would be outsourcing your worldview to other people who are just outsourcing their worldview to you. And you just have this kind of reflexive mirror. What's your one around the, is it the Faberline paradox? Is it that one?

• 49:36Chris Williamson?

  Abeline paradox.

• 49:37George Mack?

  Abeline paradox.

• 49:37Chris Williamson?

  Abeline paradox, yeah. That somebody invites you to their wedding, thinking that you want to go, you say yes, despite not wanting to be there because you think that you, they want you there.

• 49:49Chris Williamson?

  It describes how in a system, especially a social system, people can arrive at a suboptimal scenario for everybody because everybody presumes that everybody else wanted it. It's not too dissimilar to the Keynesian beauty contest that you spoke about previously, which is where you make a judgment in a, a, a beauty contest, not of who you think is the most beautiful, but who you think other people will think is the most beautiful. And then you can continue to scale this back, right? It's just an infinite regress of prediction all the way back. So talking about low agency, you know, both me and you, since we've, you first came on the show six years ago, inversion is one of those really powerful tools. So half, maybe a third of what people should try to do is become high agency, but probably

• 50:32Chris Williamson?

  two thirds of what they should do is try to avoid being low agency. So talk to me about how you come to think about that side of the equation.

• 50:39George Mack?

  Yeah, well, in the essay around high agency that I've written, which we can link to. Essentially what I call them are low agency traps that are just easy. And I've documented maybe nine or 10, but I think there's infinite amount of agency traps just part of being a human being. So there's a few which I can read now. So I, one is called the midwit trap. And the way, I think, and what's a fun way of actually explaining this without boring people. And it's a SMS message. So imagine you're in a third world jail and you've got somebody who's in the midwit trap and you text them, hey, any updates on breaking me out of this jail? This is how the midwit trap would think. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Lots of updates

• 51:23George Mack?

  from me. I'm on day 30 of my juice cleanse.

• 51:32George Mack?

  I've thinking of doing a degree in criminology to specialize in how jails work so I can get you out. And I've also watched 30 TED Talks on the topic. So the midwit trap, I've got PhD in the midwit trap, is this idea of trying to be smarter than you are, an overcomplicating thing. So for the midwit trap, where it comes from is the midwit meme. So you have the guy on the left, the guy on the right, the guy in the middle, two opposite ends of the IQ bell curve. And the guy on the left and the guy on the right often come to the same simple conclusion. The guy on the left can't overthink things. So he just goes for the simple answer. The guy on the right is so intelligent that he's all, he's demystified everything and

• 52:13George Mack?

  come back to the simple shit. And the guy in the middle is the one who's managed to overcomplicate things and overthink things. So like one meme that I made is guy on the left, make something people want. Guy on the right, make something people want when it comes to business. Then in the center, it's, I'm gonna do this five year consultancy program and then I'm gonna watch all these TED Talks and then, once I've done these surveys, da, da, da, I'm ultimately gonna find the thing. So the guy in the midwit trap would never even get moving with the, any agency towards breaking you out of a third world jail, because he's constantly overthinking and trying to intellectualize things too much.

• 52:47Chris Williamson?

  Yeah. I think specificity as well is something else that me and you talk about a lot, avoiding vagueness. And it's necessary but not sufficient to be in.

• 53:02Chris Williamson?

  To become high agency or to avoid low agency is to have intentionality, right? To choose what it is that you're going to do. If if high agency is winning at the game, intentionality is choosing which game you're going to play.

• 53:16George Mack?

  Well, when I was thinking about high agency originally, I had four things that underpin it. So if you imagine high agencies like this table here, and then you have the the four legs. The four things that I think underpin it are clear thinking,

• 53:34George Mack?

  resourcefulness, bias to action and disagreeability. So if you even go back to the Wright Brothers story there, the amount of clear thinking that they needed to do throughout of, oh, okay, oh, the aerodynamics. Let's actually take these to first principles and test it. The amount of resourcefulness of, and I probably think resourcefulness, interested to get your opinion on this. It's like creativity and persistence combined, like the ability to create new novel creative solutions. Bias to action is just like moving, moving, moving Napoleon style. And disagreeability is the guy earlier when Darren Brown rings the bell, who sits there and goes, well, maybe there is, maybe I don't have to follow everybody else.

• 54:15George Mack?

  And perfect example being the Wright Brothers, rather than just carrying on their bike shop and trying to build that into enterprise, disagreed with the whole consensus based off the laws of physics that people could fly. So you have those four things. And I think going back to your point there, intentional intentionalism is is like a sister of like clear thinking.

• 54:33Chris Williamson?

  Yes.

• 54:33George Mack?

  It's like a clear thinking leads to intentionalism.

• 54:37Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, doing what you meant to do.

• 54:38George Mack?

  Yes, because yeah, there's definitely a difference between high agency. You could you could theoretically be high agency and unintentional that we've spoken about before.

• 54:47Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, we know.

• 54:48George Mack?

  Absolute psychopath.

• 54:49Chris Williamson?

  A few, a few people like that.

• 54:51George Mack?

  Yeah.

• 54:51Chris Williamson?

  But it it results in you being.

• 54:55Chris Williamson?

  Very original and action oriented in the service of something that's a total fucking waste of time. And I mean, that that would be kind of like a version of hell because you had all of the difficult raw materials. You had all of the skills, you had all of the networking, you had all of the capacity to actually bring to bear something on this fucking very hard to wrangle planet. And you were pointing in totally the wrong direction.

• 55:22George Mack?

  It's the it's the George Soros thing, right? It's George Soros, who I'm sure we're going to get flagged immediately on YouTube for mentioning this.

• 55:30Chris Williamson?

  Soros.

• 55:31George Mack?

  Soros. But becoming one of the most successful hedge fund managers ever. And if rumors are to be true or believed to be true, he wanted to be a philosopher. And he spent his whole life by just crashing the pound and trading away.

• 55:47Chris Williamson?

  Do you know what I mean?

• 55:48George Mack?

  But just kept going up. But Bill Perkins has that bit in his book about that mate of his who said, stop me when I get to 20 million and just keep going at 50 million. And he's now at like multiple billions and he's still going because he's addicted to it. So, yeah, it's you could have resourcefulness, clear thinking, bias to action, disagreeability, but without intentionalism is a

• 56:08Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, you're fucked.

• 56:09George Mack?

  Dangerous one.

• 56:10Chris Williamson?

  You're fully fucked. What are some of the other low agency traps?

• 56:13George Mack?

  Um, another one kind of related to what you mentioned there is the is the rumination trap. So, hey, any updates on breaking me out of this jail?

• 56:26George Mack?

  Sorry for the slow reply.

• 56:30George Mack?

  I've been thinking about it. I know I've spent the last year thinking about it. I think I just need more time to think. I'm trying to think about my overthinking problem. If I can solve that, I think I can start. So the rumination trap is one I

• 56:49George Mack?

  Began to learn a lot more from doing cognitive behavioral therapy. And it's just this endless loop. I mean, we were chatting about this the other day of if you could analyze the 50 to 60,000 thoughts per day and really see them. The problem with the human brain is you have these 50 to 60,000 thoughts. But because they're constantly in short term memory, you don't fully, if you could see the graph.

• 57:11Chris Williamson?

  You'd love a dashboard.

• 57:12George Mack?

  Yeah, if you could see the dashboard, I've thought about, I've worried about that conversation with somebody. 20% of the week for the last three years. And it's just ruminating around, but when it's there fresh in consciousness, you don't, you don't see the dashboard. You don't see that.

• 57:27Chris Williamson?

  So you just. Well, there's two things going on there. There's the fact that you're in a new place, a new time of life. And you can always have an old thought in a slightly new way, gives it a sense of novelty. So you're kind of a kidded into believing that it's something new. And the other part is that we're creatures of habit and old thoughts, even ones that are quite uncomfortable. Are familiar to us and that familiarity gives us a sense of comfort and that comfort gives us a sense of sort of habituation. You know, you might not, obviously not with this show because it's fantastic. But many people will watch or listen to YouTube channels that they kind of don't really enjoy anymore. But they just know where they're going to go. It's very predictive. It's like putting on an old comfortable leather pair of shoes. Like slide my feet into these. I know what his opinion is going to be. This is sweet.

• 58:12George Mack?

  And the algorithm just keeps you in this.

• 58:14Chris Williamson?

  Of course.

• 58:14George Mack?

  Static loop.

• 58:15Chris Williamson?

  Of course it does. So yeah, rumination trap. So the rumination trap, I'm going to guess is diametrically opposed to bias for action.

• 58:23George Mack?

  Yes.

• 58:24Chris Williamson?

  It's the opposite of that.

• 58:26George Mack?

  So a personal rumination story that I had was, and the problem with rumination is you try and forecast into the future constantly. That's the big thing from cognitive behavioral therapy is you're, they call it the crystal ball or you're trying to forecast in the future ahead. And unless you can get a perfect outcome, you just kick the can down the road. And then ultimately you end up with not much road left and just a lot of cans.

• 58:52Chris Williamson?

  Yes.

• 58:53George Mack?

  So one that came to mind for me, so when I, when I was thinking about clear thinking, there's the three big decisions, right? There's where you live, who you're with and what you're doing. And one thing I struggled with for ages was I'm in this location right now. Maybe I could go to this other location. And what would happen in my head is I would have option A of me staying in current location. Or option B, going to new location. And when I would think of option A, it would go nightmare mode. So everything that could possibly go wrong would go wrong. And the other option has worked out perfectly. And then I'd flip to the other option and the reverse was true. When I had left and gone to that location, everything's gone wrong and I've now missed out on everything. And as a result, it's this doom loop that then begins to occur.

• 59:37George Mack?

  And the more you kick the can down the road, the more you ruminate, the bigger this thing becomes. And it's this absolute doom loop cycle. And then you, I don't want to think about this, which makes the thing bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger.

• 59:49Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, I mean, this is a conversation I heard recently about action being an antidote to anxiety. And that the bias for action, just look, you might think that by worrying and obsessing and ruminating and thought looping and fearing and gripping your way through this problem. That it reduces down the likelihood of it happening somehow, that it brings to bear more control. That it almost like impacts reality in some sort of a way. It makes no difference. Again, what are we focused on? We're focused on outcomes, not on inputs. And the people that have that bias for action, they end up just finding out whether or not this thing is going to work way quicker.

• 1:00:30George Mack?

  The biggest thing that I actually found with, for people listening who probably had that doom loop that I have and still have is in terms of getting a bias to action, is rather than calling it a decision, just moving to experiments.

• 1:00:43Chris Williamson?

  Yep.

• 1:00:44George Mack?

  So just looking at the two and going, oh, okay, I think this one has 60% probability. This one has 40% probability. I'm going to go the 60% one and I'm going to fully back the decision and I'll book time six months from now to review how it went and then change if not. Cause I realized in the five years spent ruminating about the two different options, I could have lived in both cities multiple times.

• 1:01:01Chris Williamson?

  Both of us have done things where we've spent more time taking, making a decision than it would have taken to have worked out whether it was going to work or not.

• 1:01:09George Mack?

  Yes, so much time wasted. And the thing I love, the thing I love about that is if you actually just did the thing, the amount of real data that your amygdala can't just sit there creating these doomsday scenarios. The, the big realization I had when I spoke to the CBT guy that I worked with was when you actually. Look at those nightmare modes that are playing. What's really strange about rumination is it skips like two to three years in the future. And the worst case scenario, it's always, I won't be able to cope. The worst case scenario will happen. I won't be able to cope and people will judge me. Is what happens in the doom loop in the rumination cycle, but it always skips two to three years in the future. And he made a great point of it's like a horror film. It just starts now and goes two to three years in the future. He goes, but real life is more like a documentary. What's you have agency? What's all the steps that that lead you up?

• 1:01:54Chris Williamson?

  You can bail out or change or adjust course at any point along that.

• 1:01:58George Mack?

  Yeah, I think a good way of moving out the rumination cycle. I kind of caught the difference between clear thinking and muddy thinking. And ultimately, we spoke about this the other day. The kind of aphorism I have, you know, the Nietzsche thing of never trust a thought that happens indoors, never trust a thought that happens in your head is a good rule of thumb. And I like that Bellagio idea of transformation. So if thought happens in my head, it's not true until I've drawn it out, written it down, spoken it out loud to another person, create an equation, put it in a spreadsheet, whatever it is. And I actually think probably 50% of the benefits of therapy is just going from head to out loud.

• 1:02:38Chris Williamson?

  It's more, it's more than that. You know, this is one of the reasons why.

• 1:02:43Chris Williamson?

  I'm I'm not on Substack, but I'm an avatar for people having a Substack or some form of written publicly consumed.

• 1:02:55Chris Williamson?

  Form of artistic output or self-reflection, specifically for self-reflection. I'm a really good avatar for someone that would not have been able to keep up a writing practice for four and a half years, however long it's been now since I launched my newsletter. And now we're like a quarter of a million words written in whatever four and a half years, something like that. But it's invariably the best part of my week. It's my favorite thing. The guy that does the podcast, his favorite thing is the hour and a half that he spends writing every week because of that precise reason. It synthesizes down the most salient thing that I've learned from that one week. And I know I only have whatever 500 words or 1,000 words to write this in. So I need to be. Like high in brevity, I need to be pretty precise.

• 1:03:39Chris Williamson?

  Uh, I need to triage what it is I want to talk about. So if I talk about this, I can't talk about that. So which one's it going to be? Which one's more important to you? Which one are you feeling more right now? And um, yeah, you know,

• 1:03:51Chris Williamson?

  big, big fan of people having, especially a public facing version of this. I understand, here we go.

• 1:03:56George Mack?

  Yeah, go ahead.

• 1:03:57Chris Williamson?

  Uh, we'll get back to talking to George in one minute. But first I need to tell you about Element. For the last three years, every single day, I've started my morning with Element. It's a tasty electrolyte drink mix with everything that you need and nothing that you don't. You might not be tired, you might not need more caffeine, you might just be dehydrated. Proper hydration is not just about drinking sufficient water. It's having the right amount of electrolytes in your body to let yourself use those fluids. Element contains a science-backed electrolyte ratio of sodium, potassium and magnesium with no sugar, no coloring, no artificial ingredients or any other junk. It's a game changer. This orange salt, first thing in the morning, tastes phenomenal. And they have a no questions asked, unlimited duration refund policy. So you can buy it, try the entire box.

• 1:04:40Chris Williamson?

  And if you don't like it for any reason, they'll give you your money back and you don't even need to return it. That's how confident they are that you'll love it. Right now, you can get a free sample pack of all eight flavors with any box by going to the link in the description below or heading to drinklmnt.com/ModernWisdom. That's drinklmnt.com/ModernWisdom. We have a, people that journal, it's phenomenal in many ways. Because you're able to say things that you can't for public consumption. But I get the sense that, at least for me, when I write things for public, I'm held to such a rigorous standard for precision to really, really clarify my thinking that I'm sure I miss lots of advantages that proper journaling would, would allow.

• 1:05:25Chris Williamson?

  But it also does other things, which is, I think it's easier for you to create structures and frameworks and ideas that you can then later refer to, opposed to like referring to this messy thing that's kind of all over the place that's in a journal. So yeah, it's a, it's a mixed bag.

• 1:05:40George Mack?

  One thing, one thing on the writing side that I found specifically useful related to that is, A photo can't do this, a video can't quite do this, but writing actually gives you the ability to go back 10 years, let's say 10 years in the future now, and understand how you think today. Or be able to now today, go back 10 years. A snapshot of your mind. That, yeah, that's how I thought. And because so many of the thoughts just disappear completely down the drain, it's so beautiful in that regard. What about some more traps? Some more traps. So the, we mentioned specificity there. So this is the, the vague trap. So, hey, any updates on breaking me out of this jail?

• 1:06:23George Mack?

  Yes, I've been working around the clock. Amazing. Any specific updates? I don't have any timelines yet, or deadlines, or action items, but I'm working on it. And yeah, the vague trap is, I think, such an easy one to fall into because you're just trying to avoid falsifiable criteria. The biggest takeaway I took from Musk's biography was, it's just, it's just like endless anecdote of, we're going to do this by X date, this time. And then there's a timer around the office to the second, counting down to that specific thing. And then the gas, the, you know, the metaphor around if you have a container, the gas will just expand or increase based off the size of the container constantly.

• 1:07:06George Mack?

  It's just Parkinson's law written all over the, yeah, the factory. There's a great line of, um, general ambition gives you, um, general ambition gives you anxiety, specific ambition give you direction. And even, but I mean, specificity everywhere is so important, even, even in writing, the, or talking, the more specific that you are, the, the more impactful, the more impactful it can be. And I actually find the reason why specificity, we avoid it, people in the vague trap, or at least myself, the reason why we avoid it is because there's a failure point. There's no criteria for success, there's no criteria for failure. Yeah. And if you can just live in that generality, um, it's, it's impossible to ever have agency, I think.

• 1:07:49Chris Williamson?

  When I played cricket, when I was getting towards seventeen, eighteen, I was on the Bucks to Durham, which is a top flight club team in the UK, would be equivalent to whatever Manchester United Academy or something like that. And I remember that on a Monday, the coach would call and he'd ask how I got on. He might have checked the papers, he might not have done because my performance would have been in the papers in terms of numbers. But he would ring me and he'd ask how I got on. And I remember the weeks where I was really low confidence, which would happen quite a lot, the specific style of cricket that I played was kind of like a special match circumstance. So the conditions needed

• 1:08:32Chris Williamson?

  to be very right. It was leg spin, which is like a complex type of bowling. And if the game wasn't at the right format, if it was too short, you didn't tend to get bowled. If the pitch was too wet, if the ground wasn't gripping, if wickets were tumbling or weren't tumbling sufficiently quickly, you were very far down the list. You were very powerful, but only to be used in specific break glass in case of specific circumstance. And there's something on cricket called a TFC, thanks for coming. And it's when you don't bat, you don't bowl and all you do is field. TFC, thanks for coming. Because that's what your captain would say to you at the end, thanks for coming, mate, as opposed to well played or we can do better next time. And I remember I would get these calls and on the weeks when I wasn't confident, a lot of the time I'd just have a TFC and he would say, how

• 1:09:17Chris Williamson?

  did you get on over the weekend, mate? And I was like, dude, do you know what it is? I could wish that I could have, I really wanted the opportunity. Secretly, I didn't. A lot of the time, I didn't want the opportunity to have done it because by setting the potential for success, by having the opportunity for success, there would have then been a criteria for failure. So a lot of it was fear of failure. And that was something that largely now I've managed to get. I mean, once you've done a live show in front of three and a half thousand people, the potential for failure is, you know, you've looked it in face. But I think I'm a good avatar for someone, I think his disposition would have been low confidence, low self-esteem as a kid. And now.

• 1:09:56Chris Williamson?

  Largely, that's that's not the same sort of problem that I have anymore.

• 1:09:59George Mack?

  Hmm. And you think a large amount of that's down to specificity or being less vague?

• 1:10:05Chris Williamson?

  Certainly being less vague, but uh largely it's just crushing volumes of testing yourself in the real world. Uh because again, you can make it until you fake it. If you just keep on doing things and stuff goes well. There's only so long that imposter syndrome, a low confidence, a low self-esteem, or a lack of self-belief, or whatever, can exist before it just gets neutron starred out of existence. You're like, I have this fucking super dense body of work that self-belief is overrated, generate evidence, that Ryan Holiday quote. And um you just generate so much evidence that it sucks the living shit out of whatever it is that you're worried about. But talking about the vague trap, I was in the gym in London. I told you this story.

• 1:10:48Chris Williamson?

  I was in a gym in London last week, the day of the show, and um it's the Kensington The Gym, unmanned, like it's a it's a cellar. It's a cellar that has a gym in it that's open 24 hours and there's no staff at all looking after it. Me and Z go in and a couple of people ask for photos, which is really nice. Uh and one of the kids asked for photos, young guy, maybe 21, 22, something like this, and he comes up, take the take the selfie or whatever. Uh and then as I'm leaving and I'm on my way out and he comes up and he's got a, I think he was recording, maybe he had a mic in his hand or something. He was recording it and uh he said, he broke it slightly, broken English.

• 1:11:27Chris Williamson?

  Hey, um I I I know that you're going to be busy, but I just wanted to ask you a question. I want you to ask, uh you know, I I really want to become rich. Uh and I'm 22 at the moment. I'm working in a full-time job, but I really want to have more self-discipline and I want to make more money. Can you teach me how to have more self-discipline and make more money? I remember thinking, Zach stood there and Max, videographer, stood there and this is kid and I'm thinking, well, you know, he's asked. It's obviously something that's important to him. He's come up and you asked this person and he's said that he appreciates. You know, I've got I've got places to be and such. I don't want to just give a flip and answer. I remember thinking like, that's a shit question. It's a really bad, like, can you teach me how to have more self-control and make money? Language barrier, et cetera, et cetera. But

• 1:12:13Chris Williamson?

  yeah, I I think I told you this and your response would have been.

• 1:12:19George Mack?

  The question, the question shit, like it's fundamentally shit.

• 1:12:22Chris Williamson?

  You would have said the first, the first thing I would do is ask a better question.

• 1:12:24George Mack?

  Yeah, that's the first bit of advice you give is ask a better question. And I think if, if you look at the, the vague trap and how often it comes up, it's because of just even the question he asked there, it's just a lack of, it's a complete lack of clear thinking. It's just like clear, like muddy thinking, what I call it is just like vague gifs in my head or like JPEGs or words that are popping up. And it's never going, what does that mean? Oh, writing that down, getting more specific, more specific, more specific. Like a great example would be, um, how can I be happy? It's probably the vaguest fucking question that's ever existed. And if you just view the brain as a questioning, answering device that we're constantly asking,

• 1:13:05George Mack?

  asking questions and you basically, it's like asking a computer, just an endless loop that never closes and it just completely expands into infinity, which then leads to this anxiety. But let's say, for example, okay, example of general question, how can I be happy? Specific question would be, what does my dream week look like hour by hour? What does my nightmare week look like hour by hour? Where am I right now between the two? And then what's the easiest first step to move up that? That's so much more specific versus like a, a general thing. And I think that's probably the biggest sign I notice whenever I'll get a DM, whether it's a personal thing or a business thing.

• 1:13:47George Mack?

  The easiest questions to answer or the best people are always, I mean, the most high agency people, it tends to be super specific. I've tried A, B, C, D, E. I saw that you mentioned F. I've done this specific thing here. This problem happened here, what do you think? Versus, hey mate, um, like I want to do this and anything? Question mark. It's so vague and as a result, it's so, it's so boundless that you could almost never apply knowledge because it's too, it's too general.

• 1:14:12Chris Williamson?

  What are the traps? Is there anything else?

• 1:14:14George Mack?

  Let me see.

• 1:14:16George Mack?

  Yeah, we have the, um, the final one, which is the, the cynic trap. So, hey, any updates on breaking me out of this jail? Question mark. I posted my idea on Reddit for feedback. This user called twatmonkey72 broke down why it was a dumb idea. And then I spoke to my cynical British friends and they said, people like us don't do big things. I don't think there's any hope. Sorry. And just the reply is, you've literally not attempted anything yet. I think the cynicism thing is definitely, that's one of the reasons I mentioned the British thing in there. It's definitely a close, a one that's close to heart, just experiencing the difference between Britain and America that we've spoken about countless times.

• 1:14:59Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, it's, there's also a degree, I suppose, of lack of specificity. There's a vagueness to it as well, that if you don't try, you don't have to fear the pain of failure. Right? If I tell myself that all women are shit, then I'm never going to seek a relationship with a woman. And as a consequence, I never have to feel the pain of rejection. If I tell myself that things are never going to get better, then I'm excused of ever having to try.

• 1:15:25Chris Williamson?

  The cope is framing hope as delusion and optimism as embarrassing. And if you know that things are bad and that they're never going to get better, then it's the people acting like things can improve that are dumb and delusional and the problem. Yeah, the upside of never trying is never having to feel the pain of failure.

• 1:15:43George Mack?

  The upside of never trying is never having to feel the fear of failure. Yeah. I think that's partially true, but I think if you zoom out, so that's at the individual level, I think that's true. But if you zoom out, the kind of arrogance to be cynical. When you look at just from the wheel to the horse and carriage, to the car, to the airplane, to the rocket. I think, I tried to create a word for it once, you're gonna hate this because it's terrible branding. But um, like this Alzheimer's of the zeitgeist, like I call it zeitgeist, it's fucking awful. I know it shouldn't be on the podcast, but we just have this weird cynicism around, basically all the crazy ideas that have occurred.

• 1:16:28George Mack?

  We now just completely take for granted. And then when we look at agency in the future, well, that's just absurd. So we're in this weird middle zone of never appreciating the, just the ripe of it, you know, like back to back, high agency people, high agency people, high agency people. Then I'm sat there on an Emirates flight getting annoyed because my diet coke's flat.

• 1:16:48George Mack?

  Never appreciating that and also not being able to appreciate that there's literally infinite potential knowledge creation ahead. It's so easy to be cynical.

• 1:16:57Chris Williamson?

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• 1:17:39Chris Williamson?

  back guarantee, so you can buy it completely risk-free, try it, and if you do not like it for any reason, they will give you your money back. Plus, they ship internationally. Right now, you can get up to 20% off everything site-wide by going to the link in the description below or heading to livemomentous.com/modernd wisdom and using the code MODERNWISDOM at checkout. That's L-I-V-E-M-O-M-E-N-T-O-U-S dot com slash modern wisdom and modern wisdom at checkout. Those are traps. What about beliefs? What are the values and worldviews that high-agency people are going to focus on primarily?

• 1:18:14George Mack?

  Yeah, there's five key ones that I identified. So there's no unsolvable problem unless it defies the laws of physics. There's no adults, which we spoke about previously.

• 1:18:28Chris Williamson?

  Adults don't exist.

• 1:18:29George Mack?

  Adults don't exist. There's no way. There's no guarantee you won't die screaming, which is one of my favorite ones. I'll tell you the story behind that one. There's an old Joe Rogan podcast with a guy called Kevin Smith, and he comes on and, fuck man, this is... He comes on and he's telling the story of his dad. And he talks about how his dad was this great guy, like was one of the people that never made any mistakes, worked for the postal service, just kind of gave up on his hopes and dreams just to make his family happy. He said, "Never saw him make a mistake once."

• 1:19:13George Mack?

  And he's out for dinner one evening with his mum and his dad and his family. Had this amazing dinner. His dad goes back to the hotel. He gets a call at three AM. And it's his brother says, you need to come down to the hospital now, like dad's not well at all. He turns up to the hospital and his mum is crying hysterically in a way he's never seen anybody cry before. And his brother just looks at him and like gives him the nod and just said, like, can just tell that his dad's died. And he says three words that he says sticks with him that still haunt him to this day.

• 1:19:52George Mack?

  He died screaming.

• 1:19:57George Mack?

  And as a result of that, he said, fuck it, like even a good guy like that. He died screaming. It's just an absolutely horrific sight. And he kind of justified that for having agency of his existence is that ultimately, if you can do everything, everything, everything correct and you ultimately die screaming. What's the point in not like chasing whimsies or just doing ridiculous shit that you can think of? Because it's such a, I think the amount of people that die screaming that never get spoken about. Cause everybody has this idealized fantasy that they're just gonna die peacefully in their sleep. Or take a load of LSD and sleep the hookers and come their way out of it. But realistically, yeah, there's no guarantee that you won't die screaming.

• 1:20:38Chris Williamson?

  What does that justify?

• 1:20:40George Mack?

  Well, I think it's the most extreme way of like a stoic way of looking at more potential mortality in its, in its face and realizing not only am I going to die. I may die screaming. Therefore, you know what? The bell's ringing right now and people are standing up. Why do I, why do I have to stand up? Yeah, I've got this bike shed right now that's doing really well, but maybe man could fly. Who knows, right? And I think, um, yeah, that it's just staring at the ticking clock of death. I think there's few greater fuels for, for agency.

• 1:21:13Chris Williamson?

  What about there's no way? Is that there's no particular technique? There's no one specific solution?

• 1:21:19George Mack?

  Yeah, so we spoke about this last time, just to recap. It's the story of Federer Nadal Djokovic. And then there's a new version, which I want to tell you about. So Federer Nadal Djokovic, Matthew Syed goes to see them warm up.

• 1:21:33George Mack?

  And we have the three greatest of all time competing at the exact same time. First off, Nadal turns up and his biceps are bulging. He's just like David Goggins, like in the zone, just fucking hitting the ball back and forth. Just pushing himself to the limit. Next up, Djokovic turns up and he's just like a calculated psychopath. No emotion, just getting the job done. And then finally, turning up late, giggling as he's arriving at the court is Roger Federer, who's doing these like beautiful dings, trick shots, just having fun the entire time. So you have the three greatest of all time and there's no way that they did it apart from personalizing it to themselves, which is like a kind of probably a core theme of high agency.

• 1:22:17George Mack?

  There's a new one I discovered recently, which is it's between Bob Dylan and Leonard Cohen, who are two of, at the period, like it's like the Drake or Kendrick of their day. The two main guys making music. And I think they had a lot of admiration for one another, but also like different bits of competition with one another. And his son tells a story of Leonard Cohen and Bob Dylan sitting down at this cafe in Paris and they're comparing notes at the end of their career, kind of like Lionel Messi and Cristiano Ronaldo at that photo shoot. And Dylan asks Cohen, how long did it take you to make Hallelujah? And Cohen lies.

• 1:23:01George Mack?

  He goes, it was about two to three years. It's actually seven, but he wanted to play it down. He spent seven years making that song, one of the best songs of all time. And Cohen returns the question about a specific Dylan song that he admires and loves. How long did it take you to write that? Fifteen minutes. And it goes to show like two of the best songwriters of their day. One took seven years to produce one of their best songs. Dylan took fifteen minutes to produce one of their best songs. But this idea, I think in the social media age of you have to do X or you have to do A, you have to do B, you have to do C, or whatever it is, there fundamentally is no way, apart from the way that works.

• 1:23:40Chris Williamson?

  Hmm. Again, that's focusing on outcomes, not on inputs. Yeah, I don't know. I'm increasingly fascinated by this. What's the, we've done four, there's no unsolvable problems, there's no way, there's no guarantee you won't die screaming.

• 1:23:56George Mack?

  I've missed one, haven't I? Hold on.

• 1:23:57Chris Williamson?

  And adults don't exist.

• 1:24:00Chris Williamson?

  There's no memory of normal.

• 1:24:01George Mack?

  Oh, yeah, there's no memory of normal. So this is the, um, yeah, the idea that we spoke about before that ultimately all normal behavior or all downloading the tribe's behavior and trying to fit in just we do it because we want other people to like us. And ultimately it ends up in the memory bin. Like the only thing you remember about people is their weird eccentricities.

• 1:24:22Chris Williamson?

  When they have agency. Only the irrational behavior survives.

• 1:24:24George Mack?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:25Chris Williamson?

  Have you, have I told you about inverse charisma? Have I told you this?

• 1:24:28George Mack?

  No, no, no.

• 1:24:28Chris Williamson?

  Oh, this is fucking fire. So, uh,

• 1:24:33Chris Williamson?

  both me and you have kind of been interested in the arc of charisma to Riz, like making charisma charismatic again. Uh, or sexy again, because charisma sounds like something that, I don't know, some real social dynamics pickup artist would have taught you in 2010. Standing outside of Topshop, working on your Kino escalation. And then Riz is kind of, I don't know, it's like, it's, it's more cool. It's so. I think a lot of people think that they want to be charismatic. Uh, and when they say that, they mean kind of energizing, sort of electric, compelling, interesting. Uh, they cause people to sort of be in awe when they walk into a room. Uh, and that's true. Like there's certainly people that are kind of magical like that.

• 1:25:18Chris Williamson?

  But I thought about the people that I like to spend the most of my time around. And sure, some of them are charismatic or some of them are charismatic in little ways. But I think one of the reasons that, you know, I love you as a friend is not because you walk into a room and are the most charismatic person in there. But the often when I'm at dinner with you, I feel like the most interesting or charismatic person in the room. So I think it's significantly easier to be somebody who makes other people feel amazing and feel interesting and feel charismatic and feel compelling than it is to be that yourself. Also, it's way more pro-social. It doesn't trigger this sort of.

• 1:26:01Chris Williamson?

  Jealousy status response because you're not stepping in to try and sort of take over in anything. You're facilitating. You're helping everybody else to kind of be the best that they can be. I'm using dinner as an example, but you know, it works at kind of any social situation. So I came up with this idea of inverse charisma, which is most people think that in order to be well liked, they need to be interesting, but actually the most well liked people are the people who make other people feel the most interesting. There's this great story about, I think it's Winston Churchill's wife. And she goes for dinner with the potential two next presidents of the United States. It's like Harry Truman and somebody else. So she leaves the first dinner and they're a couple of weeks apart,

• 1:26:43Chris Williamson?

  leaves the first dinner and says, I left that feeling like he was the most interesting person in the world. Of course he could run the country. Then she went for dinner with the second presidential candidate, the one that ended up winning. And she said, I left that feeling like I was the most interesting person in the world. And that's inverse charisma.

• 1:27:01George Mack?

  It reminds me of the meme. There's a meme where there's a huge queue on one side. And then there's like no queue for the next thing. And the one queue with the loads of people behind it is like, how to make money. And then the other one is like, how to provide value to people. And it's kind of a similar thing to charisma, right? Is that ultimately making money is just value exchange at scale. But we often think of like, how do I make, how do I extract resources from people versus how do I actually give something, turn it into a positive sum game? I've never thought about it like that. That's a really good point.

• 1:27:34Chris Williamson?

  I fucking adore inverse charisma dude. And you know, embracing that as well. The reason that I really, really like it is that it seems much more in reach for most people. Just be interested in other people and they will find you interesting. There was like a really cool study that was done. They got a guy, the. A plant, whatever they're called in a study, to go into a plane and they said, I need you to sit next to this gentleman on a long haul flight. You need to give him zero information about yourself for the entirety of the flight. So this guy gets on, speaks to this gentleman next to him, just asks questions, asks questions, asks questions, asks questions the whole way. And then they get off and they interview the person that they were sat next to, the person who was asking all of the questions of.

• 1:28:17Chris Williamson?

  They said, we're just, we're just doing a short survey about your experience on the flight today. You know, we're making sure that people are placed appropriately and how did you find the flight? He said, oh God, it was great. I sat next to this guy. He was so interesting. He was so fascinating. They go, that's brilliant. Can you tell us, can you tell us his name? He goes,

• 1:28:35Chris Williamson?

  no, I, oh, I didn't get his name. So what, can you tell us anything else about him? He goes,

• 1:28:42Chris Williamson?

  no, actually, I, I can't, no, he didn't tell me anything at all. The most interesting person was the person that made you feel like the most interesting person.

• 1:28:50George Mack?

  Damn. Two, two things on that.

• 1:28:51Chris Williamson?

  Yes, bro.

• 1:28:52George Mack?

  I know we've spoken about this before of the, um, uh, How to Know a Person, that book. One of the big takeaways I got from that is, yeah, I used to try and like turn up and go, okay, I've seen this Will Smith video when he's on that, on the interview.

• 1:29:06Chris Williamson?

  Or he slaps now.

• 1:29:07George Mack?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you're like, I'm going with the Donald Trump handshake and I'm like out alpha them and stuff like that. And one of the things I would do, I try and ask questions and then I'd be like, I'd be like, so, um, where are you from? I'm from Manchester. Oh yeah. What's the, what's the weather like there? Yeah. It's cold. Um, uh, what town in Manchester? And it's just these closed question, closed question, closed question, um, versus, okay, where are you from? Manchester. So what's it like there?

• 1:29:31Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, great.

• 1:29:32George Mack?

  And then you just open up for them to be able to speak forever and ever.

• 1:29:36Chris Williamson?

  Dude, I asked, I went for, I went for Shwama with Myron Gaines in Miami at the start of this year. Yeah, I know. What is that? You weren't expecting that one.

• 1:29:44George Mack?

  How much did you pay on that?

• 1:29:46Chris Williamson?

  And, uh, we were talking about, he, he went, you know, he's like a gregarious guy or whatever. He went all over the place and, um,

• 1:29:53Chris Williamson?

  I can't remember what we were talking about. I think we were maybe talking about something to do with his show, or something to do with like the internet, or something to do with his history. And I asked him, I said, oh, that's interesting. How'd that make you feel when that was going on? Like, what, what? How did you feel about that? And it just really pattern interrupted the whole conversation. And it was quite, to be honest, it was quite a charming moment because he took a moment and was like, huh. I've never really thought about that thing before. It made me kind of like feel a little bit sad because I was like, huh, like, I really like. I know it would be, maybe it would be an indication that more people around you asking that kind of question would be, would be something good for you. I don't know.

• 1:30:34George Mack?

  Yeah, we often just, how are you? And then it's da, da, da, and then default back. How are you? There's a story in that how to know a person where it's a teacher in front of a classroom. And some, one of the kids asked, are you married, miss? And she's like, oh, no, no, no. And they go, why? Go, I'm divorced. No, why? And they just keep going that and she went to a minute, she's just flooding, flooding in tears.

• 1:30:58Chris Williamson?

  Fuck, thank.

• 1:30:58George Mack?

  Flooding in tears because, and it goes back to the education stuff where they're so naive. They're just, yeah, why?

• 1:31:04Chris Williamson?

  Alan was asked, was talking about that too, that there's this sort of innocent spontaneity, this unencumbered transparency that kids have. And we have a kind of envy about them, you know, the lack of social mores that have shaved off the interesting parts of their personality. And yeah, so much of life, so much of adult life is getting back to

• 1:31:29Chris Williamson?

  that more childlike curiosity state, I think. Okay, so people want to become more high agency, presumably. We've said it's important. We've identified what it is, how it works, some ways that people can fall into traps to stop them from being it. Some beliefs that those people have are there? Give me something. Give me a pair of breasts. Give me something tangible. A piece.

• 1:31:53George Mack?

  For sake. I'd say, so there's a, there's a few, right? So the first one that I've mentioned a few times, but I really want to actually get into it, which is the, um, does it defy the laws of physics question? Because, okay, um, they're going back to the brain is a question answering device. So if you say, why, or what's great about my life? It'll start finding answers. If you say, what's awful about my life? It will start finding answers. And let's say we go to a venue together and the guy on the front door says, sorry, not tonight, mate. And then you go, okay, accept that social reality. And it's, well, does it fundamentally defy the laws of physics? Does it go against Newton's laws of motion?

• 1:32:36George Mack?

  Chris getting into, um, Tiger Tiger tonight? No. Does it defy Einstein's relativity? No. And that point sounds trite, but when, when you actually begin to understand that, well, you go, well, as long as it doesn't defy the laws of physics, anything is theoretically possible with human knowledge. And again, it sounds trite saying that, but you just look at the last few hundred years since the Enlightenment. When you have this period before it where nothing happened in humanity. We would just, your, your great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great granddad's life looked the same as, as yours. And meanwhile, we have this change and the ability for humans to understand how things work and implement it into reality and happen to life and shape their environment.

• 1:33:20George Mack?

  That we just now completely take for granted, like me getting annoyed at the flat diet coke on the Emirates flight. Is a big thing. The second thing, which is probably a little less esoteric that I, I really, really like as a metaphor is when you're in the complete low agency and everything is super general. And it's like, I don't even know, I don't even know where to begin. I don't even know where to start. One thing I, I love doing, a little experiment I got was going, okay, let's say have a problem right now, um, of.

• 1:33:55George Mack?

  I had a friend at the minute who, who, uh, he's an extreme, but a friend we both know actually. He's an extreme workaholic to a point that I've never, I've never seen before. And he was talking about how it's a problem. He just doesn't know where to start. And I said to him, I go, okay, where are you at right now out of 10?

• 1:34:13George Mack?

  And it suddenly takes this kind of general infinite universe. Yep. All the way down to, okay, well, a bit of a binary choice. And you can never say seven, right? So he goes, he goes, um, I'm a three. And I go, okay. And I go, why, why are you at a, um, a three, by the way, like, why aren't you at a two? He goes, to be honest with you, because I've actually like not worked tonight. I've come here to see you. I go, okay, so we're getting some specificity here. And I go, okay, well, what would take it up to a four? And he goes, well, if I left the office before eight P M, I'd give that a four. I go, okay, great. I've got a little step that I go, what would take it to a five? What take it to a six, seven, eight, nine, 10? And I go, okay, first off, let's just do the four immediately. And then as soon as you have that, you have momentum.

• 1:34:57George Mack?

  One of the things I love, and I'll probably put it in the piece of like a template that people can use, is just what I call the video game Apple Note. So you have, let's say, for example, to do list in Apple Note, build a website. The problem with that is that's starting the video game on level 56. So one, I had this fascinating realization that, um, two,

• 1:35:19George Mack?

  sorry, one person that I knew was the laziest person I've ever met, couldn't like open his mail. I couldn't get out of bed and like making stuff some food, but was one of the best video game players at that specific game in the world. I would spend 16 hours a day on this video game. And I go, well, do they have an agency problem? Or is their reality just a poorly designed video game? So the video game Apple Note is just level one. Let's say whatever it is, whether it's from opening mail to going to Kitty Hawk and taking the planes into the sky. There's always a level one, and that's what video games are incredible at, that they adapt to where you're at. And then just slowly move you up again, completely the opposite of school. So level one is always just dump down thoughts on topic.

• 1:36:01George Mack?

  And what I love about that is the matter how complex the thing is from curing cancer to flying planes to opening the mail, you can always dump down thoughts and then you check it off. And level two is create the next five levels based off the level one. And what's beautiful is when you check level one, a level one's small enough to start, but isn't overwhelming. So you you have that video game bit of dopamine. Then when you check it off, you're like, fuck, let's go.

• 1:36:25Chris Williamson?

  Progress.

• 1:36:25George Mack?

  I'm on level two. And then each step is enough. So key thing with video game design is it's enough of a step to feel a challenge, but without overwhelm. And if you, if it's too big of a step, like level fifty six, build website. That's too big of a step. You just are constantly in frustration. So you just quit the video game. It's a terribly designed video game, but breaking things down into micro steps is such a a key thing in video game design and ultimately increasing agency.

• 1:36:52Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, I mean, this is the productivity one O one. You write your epigraph. You work in seven year seasons, you work in three year blocks, you work in one year sprints, broken down into ninety day chunks, broken down into daily actions and, you know, minute by minute, you've got your life planned out. Uh, and it's kind of trite because it's so obvious, but the smallest first step imaginable is how the Wright brothers managed to get their plane to go. It's how you launched your marketing agency in a different country. It's how this podcast started.

• 1:37:27George Mack?

  Yes. And yeah, you need to be able to, if you can figure out ways that you can constantly make that first step, because fifty percent of the battle is that first step. So if you have that, great tool. Another tool more related to, so we spoke earlier about the four tenants of high agency. You have clear thinking, you have bias to action, you have resourcefulness and disagreeability. On the disagreeability point, which I think is a huge, huge part of it.

• 1:37:53George Mack?

  The question I like to ask people is who's your favorite podcaster, creator?

• 1:37:59Chris Williamson?

  Me.

• 1:38:00George Mack?

  Thinker. So let's say all the people listening to it right now who have the Spotify wrapped with you top of the list.

• 1:38:05Chris Williamson?

  Yep.

• 1:38:07George Mack?

  What do you disagree with Chris on? Because there'll be a percentage of nothing, right? All good, baby. But there'll be a percentage of the audience, unfortunately, probably less so with your audience, but there'll be a percentage of the audience that says, Chris says, sky is red. Therefore, sky is red. And that's actually a great disagreeability test because the amount of times I put gurus on a pedestal. And then they'll start, they'll say a lot of wise shit. And then I'll just start drifting.

• 1:38:33Chris Williamson?

  Get out over their skis.

• 1:38:34George Mack?

  Yeah, yeah. And then you start drifting and I'll just go with them. But that ability to say, who do you admire the most? And what do you disagree with them on is a great disagreeability test.

• 1:38:42Chris Williamson?

  That's really lovely.

• 1:38:43George Mack?

  Another one is, who do you disagree, like, who do you, what's the, maybe the strongest held opinion that you have? Whether that's politically, business wise, theoretically? And who's the best person on the other side that you've heard?

• 1:38:59Chris Williamson?

  Yeah.

• 1:38:59George Mack?

  Can you answer those two questions?

• 1:39:01Chris Williamson?

  Both of us have done, you've got your max content raiser. Would you consume your own content? If not, don't post it. And I think that works for songwriting. Would you listen to your own music? If not, don't write it. Or if you're on podcasts, would you listen to your own podcast? If not, what the fuck are you doing spending hours and hours?

• 1:39:19George Mack?

  It's why I've never posted to Pornhub.

• 1:39:24George Mack?

  I wouldn't watch that.

• 1:39:26Chris Williamson?

  Have you seen, I've told you about this before, but I've never done it, but I'm still kind of tempted to do it. I'd do it if you did it as an accountability buddy with me.

• 1:39:31George Mack?

  It's not Pornhub, is it?

• 1:39:32Chris Williamson?

  Uh, it's, it's only fans.

• 1:39:36Chris Williamson?

  Was it a hundred days of rejection?

• 1:39:38George Mack?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:39:39Chris Williamson?

  You've seen that, right? Ask for a free coffee, um, ask a stranger in the street to give you 20 pounds. Like try and get, you know, all of these different things that escalate toward ever increasing levels of social discomfort. And, um, I feel like that from, maybe it's, maybe it's not quite the same as disagreeability, but disagreeability triggers that, that sort of clamping.

• 1:40:00George Mack?

  Yes. That, that fear of, um, being, uh, exiled from the tribe like Napoleon is a small little island. I think a big thing in that, that I got from CBT to loop it back to what we said earlier, is when you're doing disagreeability things is to write down the prediction beforehand that your amygdala has given you. So for example.

• 1:40:17Chris Williamson?

  Oh, and then you get to stress test between what I thought was going to happen and what actually ends up happening.

• 1:40:22George Mack?

  Exactly. And then you begin to slowly but surely.

• 1:40:27George Mack?

  Take away the weapons that that monkey mind has and it'll still fire. But you go, okay, I mean, it's interesting. You're firing about me going and asking out this girl or chatting to her. But I remember the last time you talked about how, oh, if you're going to approach this girl, she's going to throw a drink in your face and blah, blah, blah is going to happen. But we actually, I got a number and we went on a few dates. So just comparing your brain's forecasting mechanism, which will always be the amygdala firing the nightmare mode, when it's always actually more likely a documentary.

• 1:40:54Chris Williamson?

  Well, you also don't get to take a snapshot of your mind unless you do the writing thing, right? And it's captured in the best way through writing. I mean, we've seen this even with the election in America that we had this political fucking superposition, this like quantum world in which it's going to be close. People could see it either way, yet ardent supporters on one side, Rory Stewart ate a lot of humble pie. Absolutely to slam dunk, she's gonna, and presumably he said that because he believed it, not just because he was trying to influence the electorate or say something cool or popular or whatever. So, but in retrospect, it couldn't have been any other way because it wasn't. It couldn't have been any other way because Trump won.

• 1:41:37Chris Williamson?

  And the ability, even I think back to where my mind was before that election happened. And I go, fucking hell. Like, it could be, it could be, it could go either way. I'm pretty sure that a couple of months out is, I think Kamala's got it in the bag. And then afterwards, me trying to think, how did I think before that thing happened? I mean, I can't not see what the outcome was. It's impossible for me to not see that Trump won. So all that I do when I look back at my rationalization prior to that is all of the ways in which I would have been right, because I could have seen that the outcome that ended up being was the one that I thought.

• 1:42:13George Mack?

  Yeah, and then you're just constantly, you have the benefit of the historian's hindsight, where you begin to see, oh, it was all ABC, but in the time when you was living through it, it was so, it's, you're living through the fog of war, but it's so easy to forget the fog of war afterwards.

• 1:42:28Chris Williamson?

  Fuck me. Speaking of fog of war, we might as well bring this up. I was with you in.

• 1:42:34Chris Williamson?

  Bozeman, Montana, this summer when Trump got shot.

• 1:42:37George Mack?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:42:37Chris Williamson?

  And that was a really formative experience because nine eleven, I was too young. January six was COVID, so I was in the house. So what's really fascinating is rapidly developing news story with other people at the same time. So the fact that I was with you and Emily and we went for dinner. And, you know, every five or 10 minutes, we're checking Jack Posobiec's fucking Twitter or whatever to find out what news, new rumors been going on. And, uh, yeah, it is. Even in retrospect, one of the things that isn't fully captured is how chaotic news is. And I think the same thing probably occurs for ourselves that

• 1:43:18Chris Williamson?

  in retrospect, we can look back and say, well, that was the way, that was the outcome that occurred. In any case, Morgan Housel's got this gorgeous story. He talks about how when him and his wife first got together before they were married, I think they were 23, 24, living in New York, they had no kids, no dependents. And he looks back and he said to his wife, that really was the living, wasn't it? That really was the golden years. You know, it's just so amazing. You know, we used to lie in on a Sunday and we could go for lunch and do all the rest of it. His wife said, you were miserable. You hated it. You hated all of those things. And Morgan's realization was in hindsight, you're able to see that the fears that captured you at the time were not worth having. But at the time, you have no certainty that those aren't salient. So

• 1:44:01Chris Williamson?

  what you see in retrospect is how you should have felt had you known what was going to occur.

• 1:44:07George Mack?

  The golden years seem to never happen in the present. It only seems to exist in hindsight.

• 1:44:12Chris Williamson?

  Yeah.

• 1:44:12George Mack?

  One of the high agency techniques is what I call viewing the present with a historian's frame. So both at the personal level and then at the wider kind of societal level as well. So trying to, at the personal level, okay, going, I see these old photos of me on Facebook. I'm like, I used to wear that. I used to, I used to post this shit. Um, I'm like cringing at myself. And then you go, hold on, you can hear that voice whispering, oh, me five years later is going to be cringing.

• 1:44:42Chris Williamson?

  What I'm doing.

• 1:44:43George Mack?

  Me right now.

• 1:44:43Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, correct.

• 1:44:44George Mack?

  And then, but trying to ask that question now and deal with it probably speeds up the cycle a little bit because each time there's that story of like the Zen master. Where he goes, yeah, one year ago, I thought I had, oh, sorry. After one year of studying Zen, I thought I had all the answers and then I realized I was wrong. Now I have the answers. Two, and then after two years, I realized I was wrong again. But now I have all the answers. After four years, I was wrong again, but now I have all the answers. And it ends up with him going to like all the way to his grave and saying the exact same thing again. Now I realize I have all the answers and just realizing it's constantly wrong. But even then, if you zoom out and you go, right, okay, that's at the personal level. But then at the societal level, the ability to view the present moment now with a historian's perspective,

• 1:45:29George Mack?

  trying to detach from the fog of war. There's a beautiful line in The Sovereign Individual where he talks about the Roman Empire falling. And he said that, for example, it's an easy question right now, which is when did the Roman Empire fall? And people can just give the specific date that it fell. When did the Roman society recognize that the Roman Empire fell? For the majority of people, it was not on that date. Some day, for some people, it was weeks after, it was months after. For some people, it was centuries after that they fully realized that the Roman Empire had fallen. And he makes this great line, which was if CNN existed as the Roman Empire was falling, they would not be on the news saying, hey, guys, the empire's fallen. They'd be denying it.

• 1:46:11George Mack?

  They would be, by the time the news catches up, basically, if you wait for the news, you will be wrong or you will be late.

• 1:46:18Chris Williamson?

  That's your thing about social networks, right? If you read it on Facebook, you're probably late. If you read it on Reddit, you're probably early.

• 1:46:23George Mack?

  Yes, good, good, good rule of thumb.

• 1:46:25Chris Williamson?

  That's fire. I love that. What about the Patels, your favorite hotelier?

• 1:46:31George Mack?

  This is fucking peak high agency, man. So this I got from the My First Million podcast and tells the story of the Patels who left India to go to Uganda. And the Patels essentially start as these kind of slaves or workpeople that are very low down in the society. And that kind of Indian work ethic just work their way up to the top of Ugandan society and own like huge businesses throughout Uganda.

• 1:47:06George Mack?

  Idi Amin comes in and says, no, no, no, no, no. Africa is for Africans, not for the Patels. So we are going to take everything off you and nationalize this and give it back to the Africans. So not only we're going to take everything from you, we're going to give you 30 days notice. Like my rent contract's like at least like 90 days notice, right? So we're going to take everything from you and your families and we're going to kick you out. So the Patels, some of them went back to India, but India at the time, I think, had a Bangladesh problem where there was basically, they basically argued that the Patels had been gone for so long that you're almost no longer Indian now. So they almost have no home. A lot of them went to the UK. So you have a lot of Patels in the UK and a significant amount, or a small amount, sorry, went to the US.

• 1:47:51George Mack?

  So they arrive, gone from high up in Ugandan society to immigrant in the US with nothing. And the Patels, what they do, they begin to start motels. And they realize that, well, A, the whole family is going to work on this. So we've got free labor. So we can kind of undercut people there. We're all vegetarians, so the food's going to be quite cheap to keep us going. And we can just live in the motel. So that gives us a competitive edge there because we don't have any cost for rent. So like the cost of our business is so low and we could just start creating motel businesses. So start with a few motels, more and more Patels arrive and they're constantly helping out their brothers, their cousins, their uncles, their second cousin, et cetera.

• 1:48:36George Mack?

  Or yeah, like that. And just constantly, okay, well, if we can get 5X revenue, sorry, if we get a loan that's 5X revenue on this, we can buy more and we constantly just use a bit of debt, buy more motels. Nobody can compete with us because we have this. So the Patels kicked out of Uganda, arrive in America as nothing. Keep compounding, compounding, compounding. And it's an absurd stat now of something around 70 to 75% of motels in America are owned by a Patel.

• 1:49:07George Mack?

  Just talk about peak agency, like life happening to them. And meanwhile, managed to completely.

• 1:49:12Chris Williamson?

  Seventy to seventy five percent of motels in America.

• 1:49:15George Mack?

  Owned by a Patel.

• 1:49:16Chris Williamson?

  So for the people that haven't driven through America, there are a lot of motels, tons. When we were doing our road trip this summer, me and you nodding at most of them and going.

• 1:49:24George Mack?

  Patel.

• 1:49:25Chris Williamson?

  Patel's again.

• 1:49:26George Mack?

  Yeah.

• 1:49:26Chris Williamson?

  Yeah. Uh, yeah, I don't know, man. I think that it's such this, the, the, the approach that you have to this, the fact that you've been able to break it down and spend so much time writing this piece, which again, uh, people can go and read.

• 1:49:40Chris Williamson?

  What are you hoping to achieve by sort of breaking this down? Are you looking to try and create more agency in your life? It seems like you're kind of swimming in enough already.

• 1:49:50George Mack?

  No, I, I, I think honestly, you can, as a writer, sometimes go, oh, I think this is a really important idea. I need it to get out in the world. It was more, it was psychosis that was like eating my brain and I just wanted to explore the topic because basically the goal of the essay was the thing I would have liked sort of read at thirteen rather than had written at thirty. And just exploring that concept because like I said, and I sound like a broken horse, but when you begin to understand that like everything's essentially just an agency problem.

• 1:50:20Chris Williamson?

  The agency issue.

• 1:50:21George Mack?

  Like the, yeah, it's endless, endless possibilities from fixing climate to fixing cancer. It's just all agency.

• 1:50:28Chris Williamson?

  We're in a country that may be lacking, especially for young people, agency. Both of us managed to reach escape velocity, uh, to, to get out of that. What would you, what do you wish British George knew about agency or how to maybe embrace a little bit more of it?

• 1:50:46George Mack?

  So the way I, I always joke, being outside the UK for two to three years and then coming back, I learned more in the two to three years outside of the UK about being British than the twenty five years being inside it. And. Funny bit is when we did Fourth of July this year and we're in Nashville. And I mean, funny story is Chris, like everyone's like taking photos of the fireworks. I'm looking, seeing all these people taking photos of fireworks, photos of fireworks, like soaking in the moment. And there's just Chris on Apple Notes, like writing down a quote from Nietzsche or something like that. And I just said, spot the autist to everybody around us.

• 1:51:25George Mack?

  Anyway, it was quite a strange feeling being in that environment where it's people going, you USA, you USA. And I've kind of realised at that moment, a few things. So one, I've never met an American that doesn't celebrate the Fourth of July. I've never met a Brit that knows their national day. I'm called George, it's St George's Day. And I realised, actually, I don't even know the day. And I realised, no Brit even knows the day. I think it's April 23rd.

• 1:51:53George Mack?

  And I then reflected more on the UK. And the way I view the UK right now, it's like an icon that has an autoimmune condition. On paper, it's this incredible historical figure, but it's just kind of eating itself alive. And I even think that like people like myself and yourself, like one thing that I noticed that maybe people who have a lot of optimism for the UK, then complain about people moaning and don't realise that they're then starting this. Everyone in the UK moans so much. So I kind of come at things like one of the early thinkers that's definitely affected how I think has been Rory Silverland. I've got, I do think the UK has a bit of a marketing problem. I don't think you necessarily need crazy technology or things like that to fix this.

• 1:52:34George Mack?

  So one of the absurd ideas that I have is essentially looking at St George's Day and comparing it to the Fourth of July and going, well, what's happening here? Why is nobody celebrating St George's Day? And why is everybody, regardless of their politics, celebrating Fourth of July? Again, comes back to clear thinking. I think Fourth of July, what it has is a recent enemy, which was unfortunately us trying to conquer that beautiful land, which we never should have let go. And there's a clear story that unites everybody. George killed some dragon? I don't know. I don't know the story. Yeah. Nobody knows the story and now it's just associated with racist and bigots.

• 1:53:16George Mack?

  So my idea would be fix the UK's advertising. Scrap St George's Day and announce Dunkirk Day. First off, good meme, sounds good, good branding. And essentially, I think it's a better story than Fourth of July. Because no matter where you stand in terms of your politics, in terms of creating an enemy, you could have every problem with the British Empire and the UK and Britain and the state of it. Dunkirk was an extraction, not a, an act of war. Yes, and against the apex awful human being of Adolf Hitler. Who's, and it's, it's still fresh in our minds, it's still recent enough to some extent.

• 1:53:57George Mack?

  And you could argue if Dunkirk didn't happen, does Western civilization even exist now? Certainly the UK, we, we're probably having the exact same conversation, but Spekens Deutscher, right? It's German. And both of us aren't August Landmaster and we're just going along with it like low agency little, little bitches. So first off, yeah, Dunkirk Day. And I'd argue, make it quite unique. So first off, we have to make it British. So from midnight to 12pm on the day, everyone can moan. Everyone can complain, it's not too cringe like the American style. You're allowed to moan about the mistakes the UK has made in its past, currently making and it's going to make. So you've taken something from April Fool's Day here? Yes, have it, have it until 12pm. You can like criticize the country, drink tea, blah, blah, blah.

• 1:54:40George Mack?

  Come 12pm, we're allowed, very rarely as Brits, to remember just how fucking awesome historically this country's been. So Dunkirk being obviously a key, a key pivotal moment there. And just imagine this in the UK, right? You've got William Shakespeare.

• 1:54:58George Mack?

  Alan Scherling, John Lennon, the Gallagher brothers, right? You've got Pankhurst and the Suffragettes. Whichever way you want to go, like, we've got it all. The tourist demand that I think you could bring in for Dunkirk Day, even from Harry Potter. I mean, even Crick of What's It in Crick, who created DNA or discovered DNA. One of them was British and it was done in Cambridge University. I'm sorry, America, but you can't compete with that. Like, the history that this country has and the ability to turn that into a national day that maybe unites people at least for an afternoon and potentially brings in billions of tourist revenue by just a little bit of marketing, I think is completely untapped potential.

• 1:55:40Chris Williamson?

  I love it. George Mack, ladies and gentlemen, where should people go? They want to read this essay of yours, which they should, and they also want to keep up to date with everything else you're doing. Where should they go?

• 1:55:50George Mack?

  You want to go to highagency.com and the whole essay that me and Chris-

• 1:55:54Chris Williamson?

  Highagency.com.

• 1:55:55George Mack?

  That me and Chris spoke about today will be on there. You can read the whole thing and anything else, just George Mack on Twitter. My DMs are open.

• 1:56:04Chris Williamson?

  Dude, I love you. Thank you.

• 1:56:06George Mack?

  Love you too, man. Thank you.