14 Alan Jones | Alan Jones face to face with Complainant M

Seating plans and dinner rolls became the unlikely focus of Complainant M’s cross-examination, as Alan Jones’s defence barrister sought to expose any inconsistencies in his allegations. In this episode, Isobel Roe explains how the defence led M to admit a discrepancy between his police statement and what he’s said in court about an alleged kiss from Alan Jones. If you have any questions you’d like Isobel and Stocky to answer in future episodes, please email [email protected] mailto:[email protected]. Sexual assault support services: MARS Australia (for men affected by rape and sexual abuse) https://marsaustralia.com.au/ on (07) 3857 1222, National Survivors Foundation https://igff.org.au/ on 1300 124 43 You can find all episodes of The Case of Alan Jones here. https://www.abc.net.au/listen/programs/the-case-of/the-case-of-alan-jones/106995118 The Case Of is the follow-up to the hit podcast Mushroom Case Daily, and all episodes of that show will remain available in the back catalogue of The Case Of.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  A killing in the night.

• 0:01Speaker 01

  Where's Simone?

• 0:03Speaker 00

  Twenty years later, police still haven't solved the case and I want to know why.

• 0:09Speaker 02

  Did you kill Simone Swireville? No, never.

• 0:13Speaker 03

  If you lied about one thing, you may lie about other things.

• 0:16Speaker 04

  Just because someone's lying doesn't make them a murderer.

• 0:19Speaker 00

  I'm Richard Baker. Join me to investigate Lies in Lismore, the new season of Unravel. Search for Unravel on ABC Listen or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 0:29Speaker 05

  ABC Listen, podcasts, radio, news, music and more.

• 0:45Stephen Stockwell?

  The seating plan, the running order, even the bread rolls, these are the details that Alan Jones's defence team have focused on as they've tried to cast doubt on complainant M's allegations. I'm Stephen Stockwell. Welcome to episode 14 of The Case of Alan Jones.

• 1:01Speaker 07

  Veteran broadcaster Alan Jones has been a giant of the Australian media landscape. Some people said that he was more powerful than the Prime Minister. There was an 83-year-old male arrested this morning. Detectives from the Child Abuse Squad turned up at Alan Jones's luxury apartment down there at Circular Quay. Following allegations that he indecently assaulted multiple young men. I'm not going to dwell here on the allegations made about me, other than to say that I refute them entirely.

• 1:29Stephen Stockwell?

  You would be forgiven for thinking this is some sort of inquiry into event planning, not an assault trial, given the evidence of the last few days, the details of seating plans, menus, even the programme of the event have been interrogated as Alan Jones's defence have questioned complainant M. And there throughout has been ABC Court reporter Isabel Rowe. Welcome Isabel.

• 1:51Speaker 07

  Thanks, Stocky.

• 1:52Stephen Stockwell?

  Do you reckon you could take us through what's happened in court in the last few days in, I don't know, 60 seconds or so?

• 1:57Speaker 07

  Mm-hmm. So we have been in the weeds truly with complainant M, the high-profile athlete who is the third of six complainants to give evidence in this trial. He alleges that Alan Jones kissed him at an event without his consent in 2015 and then a second time at Mr Jones's apartment in 2020. There has been a lot of testing of his story in the last day or so. The defence has really honed in on the seating arrangements, what was being eaten for dinner, where people were at certain times.

• 2:35Speaker 07

  And that is to determine what M remembers about the night and where M was in relation to Alan Jones. And he has been pressed on why his five police statements didn't actually say at any point that Alan Jones kissed him on the mouth at that 2015 event.

• 2:56Stephen Stockwell?

  Thank you Isabel. I want to start this episode at the dinner because we have spent so much time looking at all of the details around this in the last day or so. So many questions from Gabrielle Bashir, kind of interrogating what has unfolded at that dinner. And the questions from her have now seen complainant M accept that the dinner might not have happened how he remembered it. What has changed?

• 3:20Speaker 07

  Yeah, so there are two key things, the location and the timing essentially. What we have heard in the last day is that M initially thought the event was in one location. He thought that because he was being shown a series of photos and he thought he recognised a certain thing. And his memory was that this event happened in one place. He now accepts after being shown more photos and sort of asked more questions that in fact the event actually happened at another place. He also said that the alleged kiss, which was where he says he was walking back to his table, Alan Jones sort of got up and kissed him on the mouth.

• 4:05Speaker 07

  He says initially that that occurred at the end of the night and he sort of went straight home. Now he accepts that in fact it must have happened slightly earlier in the evening and he ended up staying a bit longer before he eventually left the event.

• 4:23Stephen Stockwell?

  Yep. Really working through the AV kit at the Downing Centre Court as we're going through this evidence. You know, you're talking about the photos that are being shown there. Is that how Gabrielle Bashir is doing this? Just showing photo after photo after photo of different details of this event to complainant M?

• 4:38Speaker 07

  It was, was at times quite, look, it's methodical. This is what sometimes has to happen. After hours and hours of being presented another photo with complainant M saying, is this you and that person? And he says, yes. And then she said, now do you recognise this person? And he says, yes or no, I don't remember that. There was an incredible amount of photos of this event and the defence basically took him to photos of him, photos of other people, photos of the dinner plates and the food that they had on it at different times.

• 5:20Speaker 07

  And all of it was to paint this picture of, I guess, the order in which the event went to try and place complainant M, to try and place Alan Jones, certain parts. There was a question, a line of questioning about bread rolls. The defence was like, can you see a bread roll in this picture? And he's like, yes, I can see the bread roll. And the defence was like, so you'll accept that this photo was taken in the entree? And M was like, I mean, I guess unless someone didn't eat their bread roll and it's still there later in the piece. It just, it kind of got a bit silly, but yeah, that was what we were trying to do was to do things very specifically at certain times.

• 5:58Stephen Stockwell?

  Yep, okay. And look, I mean, talking about bread rolls, we know that complainant M is an athlete, potentially just, you know, quite carb-conscious, maybe the reason that there's a bread roll on a plate at that point.

• 6:08Speaker 07

  Maybe he didn't eat his bread roll.

• 6:10Stephen Stockwell?

  Maybe he's just, yeah, keeping an eye on what he's eating at these points. Isabel, what is the purpose of all this? Why does the timing, why does the seating matter?

• 6:18Speaker 07

  Because complainant M alleges that he was walking past Alan Jones, who was sitting at a table, and that Alan Jones gets up, moves slightly towards him and goes into what complainant M said he thought was a almost to whisper in his ear. He said he came close enough to whisper in his ear and then kissed him allegedly on the side of the mouth. Now, what complainant M says is that this was the sequence of events and what the defence says is that that didn't happen at all. So while we haven't finished the cross-examination of complainant M,

• 6:58Speaker 07

  what the defence has been asking about is trying to place complainant M at certain places, at certain points in the dinner, and place Alan Jones at certain places at points in the dinner to see whether M remembers the night correctly and to see whether M and Alan Jones were near each other at a certain point where this is allegedly have occurred.

• 7:23Stephen Stockwell?

  Gabrielle Bashir was also taking M to his police statement during questioning about the dinner. And, you know, sort of said that the only time that he has mentioned that he was kissed on the lips by Alan Jones was in his evidence in chief, which was in court earlier this week. What did he say in his statement?

• 7:41Speaker 07

  Yeah, so in court he described the kiss as, he kissed me close to my lips, not on my cheek, the side of my lips. And he was asked, did Alan Jones's lips touch your lips? And he said, yes. And then in his first police statement, Gabrielle Bashir says, you told police he kissed me on my face, close to the corner of my mouth. And M agreed with that. And Gabrielle Bashir said, you did not say to the police that it was on your lips, did you? And M said, no, but when I wrote that and I said to the police what was going on, I indicated where it was.

• 8:20Speaker 07

  So he says, while he might have said, on my face, close to the corner of my mouth, he pointed to his face, he says, in the police interview. And so it's not exactly the same wording. One is on his face, close to his mouth, and in court he said partly on his mouth.

• 8:36Stephen Stockwell?

  Yep, okay. Look, I do know from seeing Gabrielle Bashir cross-examine people that if there is a minor difference between what you've said in court and your police statement, you will spend

• 8:47Speaker 07

  You will be asked.

• 8:48Stephen Stockwell?

  About an hour, just going over and over that, asked if you accept that there's a difference, et cetera, et cetera. So, yeah, we got a bit of that, actually a bit less than usual, to be honest. The thing that stuck out with me about M's police statement though, is that it didn't seem that initially he realised he was making one.

• 9:06Speaker 07

  Yeah, this was, this was a little bit odd. M said that he Uh was essentially contacted by police. Um and he went and met them at his agent's office. So he wasn't going to a police station to make a statement. Police came to him and they were asking him a bunch of questions about his relationship with Alan Jones. And he said he started to talk about things. And partway through that, he sort of was like, he said, people were taking, the police were taking notes. And he said he didn't realise he was making a police statement. He, they sort of got to the end and they had some notes and he said he wasn't sure. You know, what this was, I didn't, I wasn't sure that I was making an official statement.

• 9:51Speaker 07

  He said there were a couple of meetings then after that, and at some point there was a statement, which he ended up signing.

• 9:57Stephen Stockwell?

  Hmm.

• 9:58Speaker 07

  And there were five statements all up, so there were several meetings. Um but yeah, he, it's not like he went into a police station to make a complaint. He says he was approached initially.

• 10:08Stephen Stockwell?

  Yeah, right. So yeah, instead of him kind of going in there, it's almost the other way around.

• 10:12Speaker 07

  Hmm.

• 10:12Stephen Stockwell?

  Okay. Um, the other allegation that's raised by M, you mentioned this in the, uh, in the rap at the start, Isabel, that is that, um. M alleges he was kissed by Alan Jones in Alan Jones's apartment on Sydney Harbour. Um, he didn't seem super confident on the timing of that though. And this is something that the prosecution really wanted to kind of, well, seem to be trying to nail down with him. How, how did they go about that?

• 10:36Speaker 07

  Yeah, so they were able to ask him a few more questions about the timing. And they took him to his text messages, which we've heard a bit about already. Uh, lots of romantic texts between the two, or lots of romantic texts from Alan Jones to complainant M. And M says his responses were, you know, they sometimes had Xs and Os, but they weren't necessarily matching. Um Alan Jones's level of I love you and darling and that sort of thing. Um, there were texts in the year, uh, twenty nineteen. And then there were texts in the year twenty twenty.

• 11:19Speaker 07

  And, uh, he was asked to look at the way he responded to a text in twenty nineteen and the way he responded to texts in twenty twenty. And M said that in twenty twenty, his responses were more, uh, sort of sanitised, a bit colder, fewer. And he has, he says that he thinks that the incident in Alan Jones's apartment that he alleges happened was in twenty twenty. And that that is when, uh, he can see his messages sort of change in tone. He did admit though, uh, sending a Christmas message to Alan Jones in that year. Uh, he said he called, uh, Alan Jones didn't take the call, but messaged and said, you know, what's up?

• 12:02Speaker 07

  And M said, uh, in the text, um, you know, just wishing you a merry Christmas and, and, you know, all the best for the new year. And the prosecution said, why did you send that message? Um, and he said, I was being polite. Uh, I made a reference to the challenges of the relationship between myself and the defendant. Um, someone who has a presence in the media, someone who has a reputation around what they do. Uh, someone who's been generous to me at times in my life. That's why I believe I'm wishing them the best for Christmas, even though an incident has occurred prior to this at their house. And then, uh, he was shown sort of how the messages trailed off. There were a few in twenty twenty two from Alan Jones.

• 12:43Speaker 07

  And then by October twenty twenty two, there is a message from Alan Jones and there's no response from M. And that he thinks was the last contact he ever had.

• 12:54Stephen Stockwell?

  Yep, yep. Until he has found himself, I suppose, in the courtroom, in the Downing Centre.

• 12:58Speaker 07

  Sitting opposite him, that's right.

• 12:59Stephen Stockwell?

  Yeah, sitting opposite Alan Jones, giving, giving this evidence. They did seem to have a relationship that went back quite a long way. That was something that was highlighted by the defence at the start of the cross-examination. And also the defence embarrassed to Gabrielle Bashir, very complimentary to complainant M.

• 13:13Speaker 07

  Super complimentary. This is something that, uh, has come up in, in previous, uh, complainants as well. The defence highlight the relationship that Alan Jones had with these people that was texts. Um, you know, they, they knew each other well, they were personal relationships, they would see each other socially and professionally. Um, and that was a, a situation that happened here, as we say, that these two people, Alan Jones and M met. Uh, in the, in the nineties, um, and knew each other and were in contact for many, many years. And one of the problems, uh, that complainant M said they had with this relationship was that they began to feel uncomfortable with Alan Jones's compliments of, of champion and beautiful man.

• 13:56Speaker 07

  He said he, it made him feel, uh, uncomfortable at times. Uh, but Gabrielle Bashir said to M, well, you were an extraordinary athlete, weren't you? Uh, and he said, thank you, uh, which garnered a bit of a laugh in the, uh, in the court. She said, you were something special, weren't you? And he said, I believe I still am. And she said, you know, it was in that context that Alan Jones was describing you in these glowing terms. He was saying that you were a champion because you were. And M did agree. He said, yes, that is accurate. So, um, yeah, that was the sort of context to their relationship. The defence said, well, Alan Jones thought you were great because you were great.

• 14:40Stephen Stockwell?

  Hmm, yeah. Um, lots of kind of points as well about the sort of the support offered to, um, complainant M by Alan Jones. Something we've seen with, um, previous complainants, uh, as well, that, uh, that they've said, even, I mean, records and bank records of, um. Payments to complainant J, uh, that were put before the court, uh, as well. So, um, yeah, there's a lot kind of being unpacked and being taken through as we've worked through the, the cross-examination of complainant M here. Uh, Isabel, I want to spend some time diving into some questions. We've had a lot sent through to the case of inbox, [email protected] is where you can reach us. And while we're changing tempo, uh, in the, uh, the case of Alan Jones from next week. I thought it was an opportunity to try and get through a few of them.

• 15:23Stephen Stockwell?

  Uh, we're not going to inbox zero, uh, the case of inbox, unfortunately. There are too many emails and we do not have enough time. But, um, I do want to do our best to, to dive into a few here. Um, we've had questions from a few people about the search of Alan Jones's property by officers from the Child Abuse Squad. Um, hello to Lauren and Tamika. We do have a snippet of that audio in the, the montage that plays at the start of these episodes. Isabel, can you explain why that was?

• 15:51Speaker 07

  Look, to preface, we're not entirely sure, but what I would say is that, um. The Child Abuse Squad investigates crimes mostly for, uh, people under sixteen. But there is a, a level of investigation that can happen for, uh, children, so seventeen year olds as well. Uh, and one of the complainants in this trial alleges they were seventeen when an offence occurred. Um, in fact, complainant J initially alleged that he was seventeen when the, uh, one of the offences allegedly occurred there. But in the process of his evidence, uh, agreed under questioning that he might have in fact been eighteen.

• 16:33Stephen Stockwell?

  Hmm.

• 16:33Speaker 07

  Uh, or older. So, um, the Child Abuse Squad, uh, have been involved from the beginning. In fact, when we started this trial, there were Child Abuse Squad officers in the court just watching on. Um, and, uh, I haven't seen them in a little while. Uh, they could be watching on AVL, I'm not entirely sure.

• 16:53Stephen Stockwell?

  Hmm, yep. Um, thank you, Isabel, appreciate that. Um, thank you, Lauren, Tamika, and the others who've, uh, been in touch with that question. Uh, one here from Bhavna Isabel, uh, this is about witnesses with poor memory. Uh, so we had a couple of witnesses whose, you know, memories just weren't up to speed, basically, with the questions that were being asked by the prosecution. They didn't remember lunches that they were at, they didn't remember details of things. Um, and that's fine, you know, we're talking about events in some cases that were twenty years ago. Um, but Bhavna's wondering whether witnesses are questioned by police before being a witness. And aren't they making sworn statements? You know, you said X, Y, Z in your statement, uh, is something that Bhavna's seen kind of happening in, uh, in US TV shows. Uh, and it's wondering, is that something that's not done here?

• 17:38Speaker 07

  Yes, it is very much done here. Um, and we do mention some of it, but we don't tell you all of it. Because as you alluded to earlier, Stocky, some of it can be incredibly dull. Um, it does not make for good podcasting. Um, it is that people are picked up on every, you know, possible thing that has, was different in their statement. Different wording, uh, different, um, context, different timing. And people make statements often, it seems, you know, two years earlier than they end up in court. And their memory changes even in two years, which is sort of fascinating to watch. You know, someone writes down everything they think happened in twenty twenty four, they're asked about it in twenty twenty six. And their memory is different again.

• 18:21Speaker 07

  And that's, you know, that's an opportunity for the defence to, to question them and see which one is correct. And those questions absolutely, uh, do happen. Um, we just summarise it for you, um, so that you are not bored as we sometimes are.

• 18:36Stephen Stockwell?

  We're not going to do the verbatim of, you said this in this statement, but you've said this in court. Do you accept that those things are direct and then a witness trying to explain what they remember happened at that point? And Gabrielle Bashir reminded them that they're asking a very specific question. And it goes around for, you know, sometimes, you know, quite literally hours will go through police statements. So, um, Bhavna, great question. Uh, I hope you understand that we, we save you from, uh, some of, some of that detail. Um, one here Isabel from, uh, Kristen, she picked up on your messages to us when questioning turned towards complainant M last week. You kind of clocked early that we may be moving ahead in a complainant when, uh, questions about a dinner came up.

• 19:15Speaker 07

  Hmm.

• 19:15Stephen Stockwell?

  Um, Kristen's wondering how you were able to message us and let us know that this was going on? Because, uh, she didn't think that phones and laptops were allowed in court.

• 19:24Speaker 07

  Hmm, they are, if you are a media person or if you are a lawyer. We would be. Up a creek without a paddle, without our phone, because we are in contact with our newsrooms. We are filing a copy while the court is on. We are sending messages to organised cameras outside the court. We very much use our phones. There was a period where Judge Walsh banned us from using our phones. And we quickly objected. That was a good half a day. And he understood when one of us appealed to him that we really needed them. In the same way that lawyers do. Journalists, you know, might be in court and have other jobs happening elsewhere. So we are allowed, yes.

• 20:09Stephen Stockwell?

  That was the moment where a member of the media, who I won't name, but not an ABC staff member, got up and appealed to His Honour Glenn Walsh to reverse the ban on mobile phones was impressive.

• 20:24Speaker 07

  She did, she did well and Judge Walsh was happy to hear it.

• 20:28Stephen Stockwell?

  Yeah.

• 20:28Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 20:29Stephen Stockwell?

  I am terrified of having to talk to a judge at any point.

• 20:32Speaker 07

  Yeah, it wouldn't be me, but thank you to that woman.

• 20:34Stephen Stockwell?

  Yes, very, very, very impressive. One here from Hazel, Isabel, I bet you had this email from a couple of different people. But Hazel's email says that it's clear we're privy to much more detail than we're discussing on the pod. We're also hearing this kind of a large amount of this information as well. It's not individual details. We hear these things kind of over and over as they're interrogated in lots of different directions. And Hazel's wondering how everyone involved with the pod manages their self-care and stays mentally safe.

• 21:02Speaker 07

  That's a very thoughtful question.

• 21:05Speaker 07

  Look, this is, this is, this is my job. I've heard worse things, I've heard nicer things in my career. I find it, I'm, I'm fine. I find it okay in this particular instance and I'm pretty good at this stage of my career. I think of knowing when I'm struggling with content and I can sort that out usually through my own ways. But I find, I mean, you and I were saying, Stocky, actually doing this podcast is somehow a bit therapeutic. For some reason, maybe it's because we get to talk to each other about it, that it feels not as concerning. And you can, it's like a debrief, but it's, but you're all listening.

• 21:49Stephen Stockwell?

  Exactly.

• 21:50Speaker 07

  Does that make sense?

• 21:51Stephen Stockwell?

  Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I find doing the pod is like having a purpose to listening to it all and a way of kind of triaging it. And, you know, kind of, you know, interpreting it, analysing it and then kind of regurgitating, for lack of a better word. The information on the pod is a way that I kind of help manage processing it. And, you know, go to yoga, go for a run every now and then.

• 22:10Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 22:11Stephen Stockwell?

  Try and get good night's sleep, all those things help. All quite dull things. I was always expecting if I was having to deal with this, that there may be some sort of like magic trick. But no, it's just sort of generally looking after yourself that seems to make it easier.

• 22:23Speaker 07

  Isn't it annoying when the experts are right?

• 22:25Stephen Stockwell?

  I know. I think also growing up, my, my mum is a nurse and my dad was a paramedic. And I think the things that we used to talk about around the dinner table steeled me for some of the things that we then hear in court. So.

• 22:38Speaker 07

  That was not what we talked about at the dinner table.

• 22:40Stephen Stockwell?

  No, the conversations where you're having banana and custard sunnites was, you know, what the, what the custard reminded people of from the day. If you can manage that, you can, you can probably get through some of these things as well. We have also, Isabel, some more of a statements being sent through to the case of at abc.net.au. If you're unfamiliar with more of a statement, it's when someone has not emailed a question, they've just emailed. Kind of a general missive, which is still in its own way, very valuable and desired and helpful. And there's one here from MJ, Isabel, that I found fascinating. They are a judge's associate, they're also an avid fan of the pod, so thank you MJ.

• 23:17Speaker 07

  Oh, that's scary.

• 23:18Stephen Stockwell?

  I also get very nervous when we get these emails. They have some notes or some thoughts on Judge Glenn Walsh reading out his judgements, including punctuation that we talked about in the last episode, saying that this is what is called oral or extempore reasons. And it's so the judgment can be taken straight from the transcript instead of needing proofing and editing by his associate, someone like MJ, which means it can happen faster, get to the parties, all those sort of things. So.

• 23:44Speaker 07

  That makes sense.

• 23:45Stephen Stockwell?

  Efficiency is key and that is not something that I had considered. So MJ, thank you for that. I have now much more patience for His Honour Glenn Walsh reading out punctuation in court. Also, Isabel, we have a correction here from Paul. He appreciated, appreciated our chat about the audio visual link the other day, the AVL, as I said. But he pointed out that AVL is not an acronym. It is in fact an initialism because an acronym is spoken like NASA or ASAP, while AVL or ATM are initialisms. I did not know that.

• 24:18Speaker 07

  I didn't know that.

• 24:19Stephen Stockwell?

  Paul, thank you for teaching me something through the case of inbox. If you would like to teach me something or Isabel something, you can get in touch. The case of at abc.net.au. Also, if you have a question, please get in touch. We love kind of filling in gaps that you may have in your knowledge that might stop you engaging with this series. So if there's something you're wondering about, you're not sure about, please send us an email. The case of at abc.net.au. Isabel, thank you so much for taking us through all of this. Where are we off to next?

• 24:46Speaker 07

  We're hoping to finish Complaint and M's cross-examination. There shouldn't be too much to go, although you never know how many other photos need to be presented to Complaint and M and more bread rolls to talk about. And then we will be hearing from witnesses who have been called to give evidence about Complaint and M.

• 25:07Stephen Stockwell?

  Yeah, okay. Thank you very much. I very much appreciated having you with us for the case of Alan Jones. We've been publishing through two episodes a week. We will change tempo from next week. So we won't have a case of Alan Jones episode for you next week. But after that, we'll be getting your back here, Isabel, once a week or so to give us the latest on what has happened in this trial. But yeah, really appreciate having you here for, for the last, what is it, six or so weeks now, seven weeks that we've been doing this?

• 25:31Speaker 07

  I don't even know. This is week seven of this trial. So yeah, it's been amazing and this feels like a goodbye, which is terribly wrong. It's not, I'll be here, I'm back.

• 25:42Stephen Stockwell?

  You'll be, you'll be coming back.

• 25:43Speaker 07

  I'm not leaving. Just less of.

• 25:44Stephen Stockwell?

  Yes, yeah, less of. But you will have more on the case of, of Jamie McKinnon, one of Isabel's offsideers in Sydney as we dive into the trial of Bowler Markcondon, who's accused of killing. Jesse Baird and Luke Davies accused of murdering Jesse Baird and Luke Davies in 2024. We'll have an introduction episode for you in your feed tomorrow. So make sure you get yourself around ABC Listen so you can catch up on that and find out kind of what the background to that trial is before it starts on Monday next week. And we start with a couple of episodes a week on the case of Jesse and Luke.

• 26:22Stephen Stockwell?

  The case of Alan Jones is produced by ABC Audio Studios and ABC News. This episode was reported by Isabel Rome and presented by me, Stephen Stockwell. Our supervising producer is Greg Muller and our executive producer is Claire Rollinson. Thank you to video producer Dylan Bean, to senior lawyer Jasmine Sims, our legal queen, to the New South Wales newsroom and also to audio studios manager, Eric George. This episode was produced on the land of the Gadigal and we're on to it people.