How to Rewire Your Mind in 63 Days | Dr. Caroline Leaf

Dr. Caroline Leaf reveals that depression and anxiety aren't diseases; they're messengers trying to tell you something important. For nearly four decades, she's proven through rigorous neuroscience research that your mind controls your brain, not the other way around, and that you have far more power over your mental health than you've been told. She breaks down why the chemical imbalance theory is a myth, how traumatic experiences literally change the structure of your brain, and most importantly, how you can reverse that damage through deliberate mind management. You'll learn the exact five-step neurocycle process she's used with everyone from traumatic brain injury survivors to Navy SEALs to help them reclaim control of their thoughts and emotions. This isn't about positive thinking or pretending everything's fine, it's about embracing your pain, processing it systematically, and reconceptualizing your past so it stops controlling your future. Dr. Leaf’s books:Switch on Your BrainThink & Eat Yourself SmartThe Perfect YouThink Learn SucceedSwitch on Your Brain Every Day101 Ways to Be Less StressedCleaning Up Your Mental MessHow to Help Your Child Clean Up Their Mental MessIn this episode you will:Break through the myth that you're stuck with a broken brain by learning how to direct your own neuroplasticity in just 63 daysUnderstand the exact five step neuro cycle process that reduces anxiety and depression by 81% through deliberate mind managementDiscover why your depression and anxiety are actually helpful warning signals, not brain diseases that need to be medicated awayTransform traumatic memories from toxic patterns that control you into wisdom that serves your growth and helps othersMaster the daily practice of brain building that creates mental resilience and protects you from falling back into dark patternsFor more information go to https://lewishowes.com/1870For more Greatness text PODCAST to +1 (614) 350-3960More SOG episodes we think you’ll love:Dr. Marc BrackettDr. Joe DispenzaDr. Daniel Amen Get more from Lewis! Get my New York Times Bestselling book, Make Money Easy! Get The Greatness Mindset audiobook on SpotifyText Lewis AIYouTubeInstagramWebsiteTiktokFacebookX Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Lewis Howes?

  I love that you're in this field of understanding the mind brain connection and how it plays into our thoughts and our emotions, our feelings, our mental health and everything else is happening in our lives. Uh, my first question is, what is the difference between the mind and the brain? And does the, and does the brain control the mind or does the mind control the brain?

• 0:22Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  You've asked one of my favorite questions there. That's a really great place to start. I've got some props. Is that okay? Can I use some props to show you?

• 0:29Lewis Howes?

  Show me, explain. I need to, I need to understand in a simplified way.

• 0:33Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  Okay, so here's a brain, not a real one, um, in a skull. And the terminology for about the last forty years is that the mind and the brain have been used interchangeably. So most people think when you talk mind, you're talking brain, or when you're talking brain, you're talking mind. And the most of the popular literature, even the scientific literature that the media tends to put out, talks about how the brain produces thoughts or the brain produces the mind. But your brain actually can't do anything on its own. So if you did, and if I was holding up this, if this was a real brain and I just took it out of someone's head, which I wouldn't do. But if it was bleeding and whatever, and you looked at this brain, we could stare at this all day long, but it would never do anything. So what is the difference between a dead brain and yours and mine and the listeners and the viewers?

• 1:18Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  Is that you are actually thinking, feeling and choosing. You're alive and your aliveness is your mind. And your mind is this ability that of what you're doing right at this moment as you're listening to me. You are processing the auditory sound waves, the electromagnetic light waves, through your ability to think and feel and choose, which is mind. So your mind is like processing unique brilliant processing field, gravitational field around and through your brain and body. And you convert what you're hearing and seeing into actual meaning. And that meaning is formed from trees that you actually grow into your brain. So at four hundred billion actions per second, you're using your mind to translate auditory and visual signals.

• 2:01Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  Into protein tree-like structures in your brain to make sense of what I'm saying. And then each thing, new thing that I say, you're growing more and more. And everything I'm saying is in the root section because it's the source of the information. And the tree trunk and the branches are your interpretation of what I'm saying. And you're linking it to other existing, whatever I, whatever I'm triggering at the moment that, that you know about whatever in your life. Related to our, our subject and that keeps going. And that's what we do all the time. That's, your mind is always with you. And your mind works through the brain and the brain then responds. So here's a little model. So your mind is the gravitational field. And this is not woo-woo science. This is hardcore Nobel Prize winning science.

• 2:42Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  That this discovery of the gravitational field, in fact Einstein spoke about it back in the early 20th century. How we, each human has this gravitational field, this electromagnetic field around us. And that is basically through us. And when you die, that's not there anymore. And that's the thing that's kind of keeping you alive. And that's the thinking, feeling, choosing, the psychological version and the, the sciency version is this gravitational field. So it's a little bit like a magnet. This is, this is a super easy way to understand it. If you imagine a piece of white paper. And you put a whole lot of iron filings on the paper, you may have done this at school. And then you bring a magnet and you put that in the middle of this mountain of iron filings. And suddenly you've got this beautiful electromagnetic field. The iron filing arranges itself into this field around the magnet.

• 3:26Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  So you can't see the electromagnetic field, but, but you can only see it because of the iron filings. It's invisible, but the iron filings follow the tracing of the field and therefore, uh, you can see it. So the relationship between the magnet and the field allows the iron filings to express themselves in that pattern. The, the, the brain is like the magnet and the field is your mind. And the relationship allows you to express your behaviors. So the little pattern is your behaviors. And, and the biggest core thing is that that's the primary source. You never stop thinking. Your mind is always going, you wake up with your mind, you eat with your mind, you choose your clothes with your mind, you do the podcast with your mind, you go to sleep with your mind. So mind is the source. And if you don't understand and manage it, it's changing anyway.

• 4:09Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  Then it's a mess. And if it's a mess, your brain and body are a mess and you can't achieve greatness. So to achieve greatness, you need to understand mind. There you go. There was a mouthful.

• 4:17Lewis Howes?

  Let's, let's just end the podcast now. That was perfect.

• 4:22Lewis Howes?

  So how how wide can this so the mind, your thinking, your ideas, your thoughts, is a field, an energetic field.

• 4:32Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  Yeah.

• 4:32Lewis Howes?

  Around you, inside of you, uh, connected through your whole body and then outside of your body. Is that what I'm hearing you say?

• 4:39Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  Exactly, totally.

• 4:40Lewis Howes?

  How how far does the field extend? Is it two feet in front of us? Is it six feet? Is it a football field? How far can it go?

• 4:49Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  Uh, we they they don't really, we don't really know because when you're talking about quantum physics and gravitational fields, there's a lot of interaction that occurs. But what the science seems to show is that it's kind of a almost how, you know, like around us, sort of this.

• 5:03Lewis Howes?

  Like a haloed field.

• 5:04Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  Like a ha- yeah, and it's it's probably more because, but it interacts because everyone's got this field and we and we then we live in gravitational fields. So you, everything around you is a gravitational field, so everything's interacting. And so that's why, you know, when you come up to someone, you, an example would be like an electrostatic shock when you, you know, when you brush past someone, you get that. And on a more psychological level, you can experience that that field is like maybe in a really great mood and then you get into a conversation with some friends and they're so totally depressed and you come away from there thinking, I feel awful, I need to go and have a shower, you feel so. So their their field has interacted with yours and impacted you because those fields, that that field is coming from your mind, which then uses the brain and converts what you're experiencing into these thoughts.

• 5:49Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  And then these thoughts are generating, you know, there there's this whole relationship, the iron filings concept, and this is back and forth. And this literally is photons. I I and San showed this, that we're literally generating from our thoughts as we talk from our thoughts, which we that you can't talk without thoughts. You build thoughts and then you your actions and behaviors and communication come from the thoughts. So this would generate healthy, it's a nice, healthy green tree, and here's a toxic one. So this would be a toxic, you know, the depression or whatever, you know, being negative or whatever, that would generate toxic photons. And these are the ones that would make you, you know, you feel it, you feel that negativity, this sense of you're not a happy person and you just feel like amazing, you know. So this is, it's very real. This is not some ethereal thing.

• 6:30Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  It's we we're talking about the non-physical sciences of quantum physics and physics and things like that, but it's real and it's there's an impact and an effect and we can control it. That's that's the interesting thing.

• 6:42Lewis Howes?

  What is the what is the definition of quantum physics? What is that in relation to the mind?

• 6:47Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  So quantum physics is considered to be one of the most fundamental and accurate sciences. And at its most simple level, because it's really had bad press. But it's been around for very long and it basically just deals with the unseen. Then the, when you talk about particles and waves and the subatomic level. So what we can see now, looking at each other is, would be what we would consider the classical physics realm. That you can see and touch and feel and hear. So it's very.

• 7:13Lewis Howes?

  You can operate on it.

• 7:14Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  Yes. Yeah. So it's the physical. But if you, if you actually, and, and we see from studying of the atom that things get smaller and smaller. And then you've got the subatomic level, then you're entering the quantum world. So once we go into the subatomic level, we actually see that the atom is not really an atom. You know, particles change according to their, their waves and then their particles only when you actually look at them. So it's, it's considered the observer effect. And it's really interesting because it means that we have these waves of energy. And as we make a choice, we create reality, which we do. So as you think, feel and choose, you change your brain. Because everything, every time you choose, think, feel and choose, those three things always go together. Always thinking, always thinking means you're always feeling, thinking and feeling means you're always choosing.

• 7:58Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  And it's happening at like four hundred billion actions per second constantly. So we're processing this world around us through this think, feel, choose. And then we build thoughts. So there's this structural, there's this structural consequence. So thought is actually a physical response of the think, feel, choose. And quantum physics kind of is helping us understand that. But quantum physics is real, is, is easy to understand with classical physics. So classical physical, quantum, the sort of non-physical world to work together. Does that make sense?

• 8:30Lewis Howes?

  It does. When we feel something, when something happens, there's an event in our life.

• 8:35Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  Yeah.

• 8:37Lewis Howes?

  Someone touches us. Do we feel it first? Do we think that we're feeling something? And how is that connection to the mind, body, work?

• 8:46Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  Very good question. So it's think, feel, choose. So like as we are.

• 8:49Lewis Howes?

  So I I I touch you on the shoulder. You think it first or you feel it first?

• 8:53Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  It's it's gonna happen pretty much simultaneously.

• 8:56Lewis Howes?

  Oh.

• 8:56Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  So there's going to be the, cause there's the sensation and it immediately will stimulate think and then feel and then choose. So the feeling, the the the think, feel, choose work together to make sense of the physical impact. And what it means and if it's threatening or not threatening and all kinds of decisions are made in your mind and it happens super fast. So it's think, feel, choose, think, feel, choosing cycles and it's really, really fast. You know, we talk about four hundred billion actions per second, but it's actually ten to the twenty seven and faster, which is an inconceivable speed. So what I've done with my work is to try and understand this. You know, what is a thought and what is memory and what is mind and what is brain and how do they interact and how do they influence? And and do we have any sense of agency over this process and what does it look like?

• 9:38Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, can you explain it all?

• 9:40Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  Absolutely, I can certainly try. So I've spent thirty eight years studying this and I started out in the world of working in more clinical. I practiced clinically for twenty five years. And I initially started my research in the eighties and funny enough, in the eighties, the brain, we were taught that the brain couldn't change. So all my lectures were around the brain is fixed.

• 10:00Lewis Howes?

  It's fixed, fixed mind, fixed brain, fixed mindset.

• 10:03Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  Yeah, so they, so it's kind of that's it. You've just got to learn how to kind of, you know, work around it. And so that's just and compensate, more of a compensation kind of philosophy. So I remember thinking in one of my neuroscience lectures that this does not work for me because we're changing and growing as humans. So I said, no, I'm gonna start researching this. And I was told by my professors, that's a ridiculous question. And I actually did a TED Talk on this, the ridiculous question of neuroplasticity. So in the eighties, I said, okay, well, give me the worst situation. What's the worst situation? They said, okay, it's traumatic brain injury. Once someone's had a traumatic brain injury, and I mean, your dad went through one.

• 10:38Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 10:39Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  That's that's it pretty much. That's, you know, written off. And um we were trained, as I said, to compensate. So I said, okay, well, there's hardly any research in the eighties on brain injury and on how to comp, how to treat it. And so I thought, okay, well, I'm gonna start there. And so I worked with people that had been in comas for like longer than two weeks. And at that stage, if you're in a coma for longer than eight hours, the brain damage was considered irreversible. Now, in this day and age, we know that's not the case, but in the eighties, that was the going philosophy. So I was completely swimming upstream when it came to this concept. Anyway, I showed with with my subjects that with using your mind. In and not in any weird way, just a very systematic, deliberate, intentional mind management

• 11:20Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  in different ways and different brain building and dealing with emotions and just different ways, same sort of process um that you can actually change this. And so some of my my the first, my very first case study was a girl who was sixteen at the time of the accident and she had lost a whole year of school, written off as a vegetable. I mean, that's what the doctors used to say in those days, which is a terrible thing to say to someone. Anyway, long story short, after eight months, not only did she manage to, she came around, I started working with her when she was, when she was conscious and functioning sort of at a second grade level. And she wanted to, her goal was to get, her goal of greatness was to get back to finish twelfth grade and with her peer group. Now, that was an impossible task. All the doctors said, don't even

• 12:02Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  go down that road, not, not even worth it. So I said, well, I was a new scientist then, very young, totally into this, said, well, you, you know, go with me, let's do this. And she, within eight months, she got up to a twelfth grade level, finished school with her peers and went on to get a university degree. And one of the coolest things was that she was actually a really average student and not even good at math. After, after the accident, using her mind to change her brain, she became like a math genius. You know, I mean, this was like, and I can tell you story after story, and that really motivated me to work across the board with, now I really have to understand what's going on. And I happened to be living in South Africa where I grew up at the time. I was born in Zimbabwe and grew up in South Africa and in the apartheid era. I mean, this is like, it

• 12:44Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  really ages me, doesn't it? Go back into those, I worked through the apartheid era, the transition and the post apartheid era. So I was seeing all the socioeconomic trauma, the racism trauma, and I worked in that three days a week in those environments with terrible poverty and whatever. And I worked in war torn Rwanda and I worked with the wealthiest of the wealthy, heads of CEOs of corporations, schools everywhere that I, my laboratory was the world to try and understand humans and mind and get away from this scientific concept that consciousness is the hard question and no one is really doing anything. We're just talking about it as being as this elusive philosophical thing that we will push aside and one day, promissory science, we'll do it one day. And I thought, I can't do this because it's, I am mind, you are mind. So if I don't manage it,

• 13:29Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  I mean, you can go three weeks without food, three days without water, three minutes without oxygen, but you don't even go three seconds without using your mind. So my underlying premise was, okay, well, if that's the case, what is it? And how do we manage it? And if it's, if I don't manage it, what I did for my research, you can learn to manage it. Mind is malleable. You can direct the neuroplasticity of your brain. I did some of the first neuroplasticity research in my field in the late eighties, early nineties, before it was accepted by the mid nineties, neuroplasticity was, well, that's it. And, um, and I showed that my, my underlying argument or thesis was, well, if our mind is always changing, which it is, so you wake up, you're experiencing everything, conversations, the emails, the pot, life, politics,

• 14:12Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  you're immediately immersed in life and you're processing that through your mind, you're growing it into your brain and you're doing this every moment of the day. So if I don't control it, it's a mess. But if I do control it, then it isn't a mess. Now, I know we can't control events and circumstances. We all agree with that. So I'm not into this whole law of it. I'm not talking about law of attraction and, you know, saying fifteen positive affirmations and that's going to fix your story. No, I'm not talking about that at all. It's not realistic. I'm talking about the fact that you cannot control events and circumstances, but you can learn to manage your mind, which means your responses. Yes, the things are going to happen, trauma, death, life happens. But how you manage it and you, I mean, your case is a classic example. Your life was thrown upside down and your family's life was thrown upside down

• 14:56Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  and you managed your mind and got yourself back going. So you were doing this concept anyway. You know, greatness, that's why I said greatness comes from us managing our mind. And greatness doesn't necessarily mean that you've got millions in the bank and you're this famous superstar. It means that do you have mental peace? Are you actually growing? Are you satisfied as a person? Are you, you know, that's the sort of where we want to go as opposed to this very externalized version of it.

• 15:21Lewis Howes?

  So. Yeah, wow.

• 15:24Lewis Howes?

  Um, this is really powerful. So how do we learn to manage our mind in response, in a more positive way to the chaos, stress, traumas, dramas of life around us? You know, obviously we, we can maybe influence certain events to manifest in our lives, but we can't control the things that are happening around us necessarily, just how we respond, like you said. So how do we learn to reframe our mind or rewire our mind? And so that we can have inner peace when there is trauma or pain around us?

• 15:57Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  Brilliant question. It's a skill that we learn. So that's really nice to know. The sooner, it's never too late to start, but the sooner we start, the better. So I have four adult children. They learnt this, they grew up with this stuff. And as I've learned new things, they've been my lab rats. So they've been trained and literally and my husband, and they all work for me, by the way.

• 16:15Lewis Howes?

  They're either, they're either all amazing kids or messed up kids.

• 16:18Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  Totally. Yeah, yeah. We'll have to ask that question. Well, Dominique's my producer. So I think she's sort of doing okay there. But yeah, no. The thing, the biggest thing with the mind and managing mind lures us to accept that depression, anxiety. Even the scary words like bipolar and schizophrenia and then going to the more sort of things like that, we can accept grief, anger, et cetera. These are not illnesses. This is the biggest message that I probably have. The second biggest, the first is that mind is the source. And if you don't get mind right. Everything else, you can read all the great books you want and go to all the great seminars and self-help, but unless your mind is right, you won't ever use that stuff. It's just data.

• 16:57Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  And so you, there's, there's that, there's another step missing and it's understanding that autonomy, that sense of agency that we have. To manage what's going on around us and to accept part of mind management is not to make the bad stuff go away, but to know how to live in the bad stuff because it's not going away. So despair, anger, depression, anxiety, these are all completely normal responses. In fact, they're very helpful. They're helpful. Messengers and warning signals as opposed to being scary illnesses. They are not neuropsychiatric brain diseases like we've been told. They are actually responses and because they are responses of our mind in, in the world. We only use our brain and body to express them because we've got, the mind has to have the brain and body to, you know, build the thoughts and then from, we use that to speak.

• 17:42Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  We're using our physical to, to store what we've, what we've processed and to convert and then to speak. So obviously if our mind's a mess, our brain and our body will be a mess. But because our brain's neuroplastic and we, if we manage our mind, we can change our brain. We can change our DNA, literally. That's what I've shown in my research. You can literally change your DNA, your blood markers, literally.

• 18:02Lewis Howes?

  If you change your mind?

• 18:03Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  If you change your mind, you can immediately influence your biomarkers. So for example, if you are in acute trauma, for example, and you go, just, okay, let me explain it in a very simple way. I'm testing, been testing out a glucose, continuous glucose monitoring device. And for some research purposes, and I happened to, while I was wearing it, because you wear it and then you, you know, you track your levels. Uh. And I wanted to see for in terms of mental health and the neuro cycle that I've developed, I wanted to see the impact. And I happen to be going through, experienced a very acute trauma in my family over December. And in the moment of the trauma, I happened to see on my glucose monitor that my glucose had shot up to two hundred and forty. Now, that's heart attack level. And I immediately managed my mind through the neuro cycle, which

• 18:46Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  is the concept that I've developed, which is just a system, anyone can learn it. And I dropped my glucose levels within seconds back down to a normal level. And as it cycled up, it cycled, I could manage it. And in, if glucose is at that level, your cortisol's shot up at that level, your DHEA is dropped, your homocysteine's up. All that means is that your immune system is going crazy.

• 19:07Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 19:07Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  You get the same response to a mind thing, a thought, which is the consequence of mind. Think, feel, choose, you build thoughts. Thoughts are made of roots and trees, branches, which are the memories. So thoughts are made of memories, like trees are made of branches. Any kind of damage in my body, the immune system sees that as threatening survival because we, we are wired for survival. So this is not survival. So your immune system says, hey, that's a threat. Let's send out the army, T lymphocytes, B lymphocytes, macrophages, let's go fix this thing. And it creates inflammation, which is a temporary state of healing. So initially, inflammation is to isolate and fix.

• 19:43Lewis Howes?

  To protect. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 19:44Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  Exactly. Isolate and, and then you're supposed to, you know, fix this up and sort this out and find the root cause. And then this goes away. And then the anti-inflammatory factors come in and the inflammation goes away. But if we don't deal with the stuff, and we don't deal with our past traumas, and we don't deal with those patterns in our life that we are enacting, that the constant arguments or the, you know, we all have these toxic patterns, or no one's immune, we all, and, and the signals of those are things like depression and anxiety. And those are simply telling you, hey, there's a pattern. It's either a trauma based pattern, or it's a toxic habit you've developed. But that pattern is actually putting your body under tremendous stress, even to the point where your DNA is affected. And I showed in my research that, you know, if you think of

• 20:28Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  the DNA ladder, if you pull out a chromosome, it looks like an X. And where you see my fingernails, pink fingernails, for those of you that are listening. Um. The pink fingernails would then represent what we call telomeres. And telomeres are a proxy for how you are managing your mind. Very interesting.

• 20:44Lewis Howes?

  Aren't they also, aren't they also based on how long you'll live as well?

• 20:48Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  Exactly, exactly. Totally correct.

• 20:51Lewis Howes?

  So if those are under attack and dying, you're probably physically gonna die as well.

• 20:56Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  Exactly. That's exactly what I showed. So we had subjects at the beginning of, in my clinical trial that I put in this book. We had subjects and I've actually got a picture of this person's, one of the subject's brains. This is inside, looking inside their brain and the blue represents someone who's totally depressed, flatline, brain, flatline, literally. And this person's, all their biomarkers were up there, in, in, um, cortisol, inflammation, et cetera. But this shows that the energy levels in the brain are very flat. Blue means a very, very depressed. And this person was, their narrative was tremendous torment in their life. They were offline. They were battling with, um, work, relationships, a lot of stuff.

• 21:33Lewis Howes?

  Everything was off.

• 21:34Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  Everything was off. Sleep, you name it. They were at like three to check out.

• 21:38Lewis Howes?

  What page is this on?

• 21:39Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  This is on page, this is on, I should tell you, I should know the page of my heart, um, one sixty one.

• 21:47Lewis Howes?

  Okay, cool.

• 21:47Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  I think you, you've probably got it in black and white in that version that you've got there. Um, the people, um, so the, this person's telomeres, when we looked at their DNA and we looked at their telomeres. They will tell you how, the, the shorter they are, the weaker your cells, the shorter your lifespan, the more vulnerable you are to disease. So they were sitting, so that will show in terms of your biological age. So their telomeres were short and unhealthy. They, their ages were in the, uh, of this particular subject and we had a group like this as well, that similar. They, their biologic, their chronological, their actual age was in their mid thirties, but their biological age.

• 22:23Lewis Howes?

  Seventy or something.

• 22:24Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  Yes, a sickly seventy year old.

• 22:26Lewis Howes?

  That's crazy.

• 22:27Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  Within, crazy, within nine weeks of ma- mind management. Note, I didn't work on, I don't use drugs. I didn't, I do talk about diet and stuff, but in this particular clinical trial, it was pure mind management, just the neuro cycle. Just get your mind under control. And that gray means that their brain stabilized. That the brainwaves that they were actually managing. So here they were saying, I am depression, I am hopeless. All the biomarkers, DNA, here they're saying, I felt, I now know why I feel depression. I'm not depression. I now know why, and depression is simply a signal of an underlying cause. It's not who I am, it's not an it, it's not an illness. By sixty three days, and these numbers are very significant, they were actually seeing behaviour change in their life.

• 23:11Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  They were saying, okay, so I know I'll still get depressed, but I know why and I know what to do. And there was changes in their behaviour, they were back at work, they were back sleeping, twenty five percent improvement in sleep. And I mean, all kinds of like, their relationships were not suicidal anymore. And I mean, that's, I can go on and on and on.

• 23:26Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 23:27Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  This subject over here was in the control group, so they got no mind management. And what you'll see is a lot of red and a lot of chaos. And that red shows complete brain that is like a tsunami in your brain, which the biomarkers were terrible. This person's DNA, telomeres were very short. And so with mind management, in nine weeks, we showed how you can literally change your telomeres, which are your markers for aging and for health, mental health and physical health. And that's pretty unusual because most of the work on telomeres has been done around diet and exercise.

• 23:59Lewis Howes?

  Right, right, it's all about like, you know, leafy greens and plant based.

• 24:03Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  Exactly, which is significant. And also there's been some work on meditation, but there's been no, no, I think this is the first study that's been done on actually doing deliberate intentional mind work to change. And then we saw significant drops as well in inflammation markers and blood markers. And but the biggest thing was their narrative, the person's story. So if we go away from the biology for a minute and we, and we listen to the person's story, that person was offline, they were online, they were living again. And even though, and they had also had this, this, this acceptance, and this is what I wanted to kind of circle back to when we started, was life and managing your mind doesn't mean that it's going to be one big rosy, you know, put on rose tinted glasses. That's crazy, it is actually the ability to. Be okay and at peace with having moments of depression and actually looking for the

• 24:48Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  message and seeing them as helpful. We have this really weird philosophy, which has been about forty years in the West now, where we look at depression and anxiety and those kind of things as illnesses and neuropsychiatric brain diseases and as bad symptoms that you must suppress, like cancer symptoms you must suppress. So it's been lumped, or misery of life has been medicalized, to quote a brilliant psychiatrist, and Joanna Moncrief. So we've got to really watch out for that. But actually, the real truth is that those depression and anxiety are not illnesses. They are just survival instincts. It's telling you, hey, pay attention, there's something going on, you need to go and.

• 25:28Lewis Howes?

  Something's not working, something's not working.

• 25:30Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  Something's not working, and it's manifesting as a pattern that needs to be addressed, and that'll block the greatness.

• 25:34Lewis Howes?

  So are you saying, am I hearing, did I hear you say that there, there isn't a mental health disease, it's more of just a, a pattern that, or something that we should be mindful of, but it's not an actual disease?

• 25:45Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  No, it's not a disease. And I know this counters, this counters the current philosophy, but if you look at the science, there's a large body of science. In fact, if you interpret all the science around this field, and you really look at what's being tested, you actually will see it's not a, they've been looking for the neurobiological correlate, so they've been looking for where in the brain is depression. And for years, we've been told about the serotonin imbalance causing depression. I mean, that's not even, it was a theory, never proven, great for marketing, for, you know, for selling drugs, and also a simplistic way of telling someone, hey, you're depressed, don't worry, it's chemical imbalance, let me give you a drug to fix it. You know, it's, we want this quick fix mentality. So with, as medicine has advanced and technology has advanced, so we've become very caught up in the quick fix.

• 26:29Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  And, but life's not like that, mind is not like that, mind is separate from brain and body. You can apply that kind of thinking, not quick fix, but you can apply a symptomatic diagnosis, treatment approach to body, to physical brain and body. But when it comes to mind, that, that, there's this, this gravitational field, this force, this think, feel, choose, think, it's not gonna go, medication's not gonna change how you're thinking, feeling and choosing, it's not gonna get rid of this, it's just gonna numb your brain, so maybe you don't feel this for, while it's working.

• 26:58Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 26:59Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  But at the same time as then, when that drug wears off, this is still there, this is still being recognized by the immune system of your brain as a problem. So this is increasing your vulnerable, the longer it's there, the more you increase your vulnerability to disease. Oh my gosh. You know, and this is what gets you stuck and these are the patterns. So no, it's not an illness. It is a normal human response. Mental health has always been an issue. Notice from the beginning of time, mankind has battled with life, with issues, with death, with fighting, with war, with whatever. So mental health is not on the rise, but the mismanagement of mental health, making it a disease, has created a whole new problem. Wow. So here, so here we sit with, before the pandemic, they started doing a population study in the mid nineties and this is when I was still practi-, early days of my practicing,

• 27:43Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  sort of ten years into my work. And I started seeing this trend of, and, and I was watching the study, where people were, where the, the decades-long trend of people living longer. So we know, we all hear this message, what, this is what we've heard. People are living longer because of the advances in medicine and technology. None of us question that. But something happened in ninety six that did start questioning that. By the mid two thousands, it was an established, researched fact that we don't live longer anymore, that the trend of people living longer has actually reversed and that we have a, a pandemic of deaths of despair, where people are dying from preventable lifestyle diseases and the age group most being affected, but between twenty four and sixty five.

• 28:26Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  So people at the beginning of their career and the prime of their career and through that, that age group are being, are dropping down dead like flies. And it's deaths, considered deaths of despair by preventable lifestyle diseases. So we have to look at the bone, lifestyle disease means that there's something in our body that's, that's weaker. Why? Lifestyle, which is mind-driven, how am I eating, drinking, sleeping? Uh huh. But more than that is what's my mind behind all of that? How am I actually managing the day-to-day moment? How am I managing the patterns, the tumors, the established toxic habits? What am I doing about that stuff? And that's, when we, when we ignore all of that, because this current trend of science is saying, oh, those don't matter. What matters is the symptoms. Let's just look for the symptoms. Right. Checklist, diagnose, label.

• 29:11Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  When you label someone, you chop, you, you, you chop up to ten years more of their life. You know, it's like, it's adding on, they've shown studies of people with a mental health diagnosis have chopped their twenty years of, up to twenty years of their lifespan. People on psychotropic drugs because of all the complications and the changes in the brain and the body. Chopping up to twenty five years of their life. There's such a contradiction because they're saying, hey, there's this adverse circumstance, grief of loss of people, uncertainty, medical and not knowing if you're going to live or die, and how long is this isolation going to go on, and economic impact and whatever, the whole lot. That's trauma, and they're saying that when they're saying, but this is the way to treat it. Let's label it, let's diagnose this, let's medicate it.

• 29:52Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  So we've got to shift our narrative completely, and we've got to stop saying that mental illness is on the rise, and that there's one in four people on antidepressants who are depressed. A hundred percent of people are depressed and anxious. A hundred percent of people in the world, at some point in their life, have and will be anxious and depressed and in grief and sadness and terror and despair and one of the others. A large percentage of the population, and I'm not sure of the exact percentage because no one's really done this kind of research, but estimates, it's probably thirty, forty percent of people will have extreme trauma of, from abuse, war trauma, that kind of stuff, where they'll go down the continuum to sort of the minus nine, ten, eight, nine, ten.

• 30:33Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  If you look at a continuum of zero to ten, zero to minus ten, and have things like psychotic breaks and hearing voices and extreme states of distress, mental distress, which are still not diseases, they are simply in that traumatic situation, you're having a traumatic response. Think of someone who's a war vet, I just interviewed a Navy SEAL the other day who was trained snipers, and I mean, the things that he had to do and that his teams had to do, you know, they come back and try and, we all know the problem of trying to, you know, re- reconcile back into civilian life after you've gone through.

• 31:05Lewis Howes?

  Very challenging, yeah.

• 31:06Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  I mean, you know, this is what they're experiencing all day long, stuff that's completely against survival, completely against our human nature. And now they, instead of them being allowed to process this trauma, they're coming back and being told that they're diseased. And he would tell me that what they do with a lot of, we don't hear this sort of thing, but he told me this, they, they, they will inject things like risperidol, which is an antipsychotic, into the spines of war vets because they're a bit psychotic and they, and they're psychotic for a reason, it's their coping, they, they, how do you deal with this? Of course you're going to be angry, you're going to be frustrated, you're not going to be able to live like you did. You have to be able to embrace process and reconceptualize. Giving them a drug's not gonna make it, it not going to help it. In fact, it constrains the brain. It restricts the brain. You can't, there's no chemical cure for that.

• 31:48Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  This, this is, that's not, that's just gonna add fuel to the fire. Cause your mind's gotta work through the brain. So now you've put chemicals in. And now that's not gonna, that's not gonna facilitate change. We have to do something. So it's like a narrative.

• 32:01Lewis Howes?

  Do you feel like there, I mean, is there such a thing as a chemical imbalance in some people? Uh, you know, when they say, oh, I have a depression, it's a disease or bipolar, or I have this mental health disease, or I have a chemical imbalance. I was treated with this. Don't try to say I don't because this is who I am. Is that, do some people have that or is that?

• 32:22Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  That's a result of.

• 32:24Lewis Howes?

  Go ahead.

• 32:24Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  The narrative of I have a chemical imbalance and my depression is from chemical imbalance is a narrative that is the only explanation that people have been given. They're not given an alternative reaction. I mean, an alternative narrative. So the most important thing is that anyone listening to this podcast, I wanna validate your depression, your anxiety, your grief, your despair, your PTSD, whatever label you've been given. I want you to, I wanna validate that that doesn't need to be validated with a disease label. You're not diseased, you're not a broken brain. You aren't, your brain isn't defective. You are going through something. So you aren't something, you aren't that, you are going through something.

• 33:03Lewis Howes?

  You're experiencing something.

• 33:05Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  You're experiencing something and you're experiencing, and you've coped in the only way that you could cope in that moment. So it created this adverse response because it was an adverse situation and you were just trying to cope. So what we have to do is go through a process of embracing and processing and reconceptualizing. So the important thing here is to recognize that chemical imbalance isn't the cause of your despair. The cause of your despair is what you've gone through and what you're going through. And learning how to, and not knowing how to manage it and how to deal with those thoughts that are driving you crazy and those flashbacks and the, and the trauma of the flashbacks and going back into those situations of the rape or the abuse or the war trauma or the, that it can, it will drive a person crazy. And that's not crazy in the sense of illness.

• 33:48Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  It's crazy in the sense of your mind is like this erratic tidal wave around you and it's going through your brain and you've got these and your immune system and everything screaming out to you and saying, hey. Let's fix this. So a disease label invalidates it. And for a moment, it might be nice to know, okay, well, there's a label to how I feel. Cause it kind of gives us a bit of feels like we've got a bit of control. So initially that gives you comfort, but don't see yourself as that. It's better to say, I'm experiencing post traumatic stress. Issues because of what I've been through versus I am PTSD or I have the sickness of PTSD. It's better to say, I'm experiencing symptoms of bipolar, these in swings because of my whole story.

• 34:32Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  Then saying I have bipolar, I have a chemical imbalance. I mean, just researchers coming out the other day showed that we've got to stop saying this. The top psychiatrists that lead this field will tell you, we've got to stop saying this. That there's, there's no ways that serotonin imbalance, you can't even measure that. There's no gene for, there's no genes or serotonin imbalance causing it. It's what you've experienced, that's the cause. And then that moves through your brain and your body. So obviously your brain and your body responds. So we will see changes in the brain and the body. We will see neurochemical chaos. Not necessarily serotonin imbalance. That's just one. Sometimes it's dopamine. And if dopamine's down, serotonin's off and then anandamide's off. And then, I mean, I can give you a list of big chemical terms and that's going to change.

• 35:14Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  Every function in the structure of your brain and your, your DNA and your telomeres and. Um, fourteen hundred neurophysiological responses are off. So, you know, that's, and that's the response though. And that doesn't mean that, that you have this thing hidden inside of you, the scary thing that's controlling you. And I, that invalidates. If I, if, if someone comes back from war, someone's had a sexual trauma. To tell them that the depression or anxiety they're feeling is an illness is an insult to what they've gone through. But if I say, if I say to you, gosh, that's terrible. Tell me about it. I want to hear your story. I want to support you. Your depression and, and anxiety that you're feeling is a signal. That there's stuff going on, there's an origin story, there's a source.

• 35:59Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  So can I listen? Can I help? Can I support you? In trying to recognize the signals and go through the process to find the origin story and then to reconceptualize it. And that's takes time. It's not a fifteen minute appointment where I can give you a label. That takes time. That's not also, it's also not the conditioning kind of treatments that are in place that some of them work if they're used in the right place, but to try and to try and put a a veteran who's gone through something back into the situation to try and condition them. You can't condition, you have to reconstruct. So it's kind of like an algebraic equation. X is is the situation. Y is how you should want you want to function for mental peace. So you've got X plus Y.

• 36:41Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  And so here we are in our X situation where we as a sort of human experiencing life, we're supposed to be at Y. And you put the two together and what the current treatment says is that, okay, now we're going to create Z. We're just going to ignore X and Y. We're going to create a new thing and that new thing is you diseased. But that doesn't work. It's actually X plus Y equals X Y. X is what you're going through. Y is where you want to find mental peace. And you want to put the two together to live together so that you can change how the past plays out into your future.

• 37:12Lewis Howes?

  Oh, man, this is powerful. Gosh. I want to go back to what you said when you're experiencing this traumatic event in the family you had recently, where you were wearing a glucose monitor and you mentioned that there was a process, you realized like the monitor went through the roof, heart palpitations, stress, you could feel your physical, your body changing into this stress response, this protection, tightness, whatever it was.

• 37:37Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  Yeah.

• 37:38Lewis Howes?

  Fear, anxiety, all these, these things you were experiencing in the moment. What was the process that you broke down to bring it back to to more normal levels for yourself of feeling more peace, groundedness, calm?

• 37:51Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  Okay, so it's the process of the neuro cycle. Excellent question. And it's the process of the neuro cycle, which is it's in the second half of the book. So the neuro cycle is five sign.

• 38:01Lewis Howes?

  This is the five steps, right?

• 38:03Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  Yeah, this is the five steps. This is what I initially developed for people with traumatic brain injury was my first time that I developed it and developed my theory and then from there refined it to all the different types of you know, situations I worked with and then it's been refined over the years. This is the most updated research. So a good scientist should keep learning and changing and improving, which is what I've tried to do. So in this book is the updated version of the neuro cycle. The neuro cycle is how you get your mind, which is always working, under control. If in a state of acute trauma like we were, like I was in in that moment. Acute trauma creates a red brain. I showed you that picture of a red brain. That red brain means that I have a tidal wave in my brain going on, or that there is, um, the left and the right brain will be out of harmony. I'll have a drop of blood and oxygen to

• 38:46Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  the front of my brain. I'm gonna have things like the delta, we've heard of things like delta, theta, alpha, beta, gamma. All those waves are supposed to flow like waves in the sea. And if you think of the sea, you've got the big swells, which is delta, slightly smaller swells, which is theta, the, then they build, which is beta, the crest, which is high beta, and the gamma, which is the ripple on the beach. And so we want that through the brain in this nice kind of even way. That's kind of the, the Y state. X plus Y, X is what happens, so Y is that state. So X happens and then that Y state gets thrown off. So in that moment, that's what happened to me. So what we wanna do is, because mind works through brain and body, and mind is experiencing this, this trauma, which is a mess, um, our brain and body just do what the mind's doing. So then there's a mess in our brain and our

• 39:31Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  body. But if I have that kind of chaos, I can't think straight. I'm not gonna have any wisdom, I'm gonna fall apart. And in this situation, I would have. And, um, and I have in the past, but now I've learnt how to deal with this. And I talk about there that this neurocycle can improve how you manage anxiety and depression by eighty-one percent. That's a massive claim. And I've shown it scientifically. Okay, so what I did was to try and get myself back under control. Now, in that state, you, you don't know what to do in a, in a tremendously acute traumatic state. But I knew from my science and from my knowledge, so I'm proactive, so I could go into two zones. So I went into two modes. The one mode was the mental mess that I was in, which is the pilot, because I'm driving, I'm in this time. Imagine yourself being in a helicopter, that's like a time

• 40:15Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  capsule, and you're flying over this forest, and the forest is your mind, with all these trees. And this acute trauma has just grown, because it's instant. So here's this terrible. And your helicopter is drawn to this because you are in shock and terror and fear and deep panic and anxiety, that is all the smoke signals. So I, my, my pilot's going like this. The co-pilot is also me, but it's my wisdom because inside of each of us is our survival. And that's our instinct that, you know, when you give someone great advice and you just think, oh, wow, where did that come from? You know, you get that off, it's that depth, like we know what we know, we know how much we can handle, we will say, I know this, that kind of thing. That's the co-pilot, this wisdom. So what we want to do in those states is to get ourselves into the

• 40:59Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  co-pilot, remember the co-pilot and the pilot and you use the you language. So here you flying this plane all over and the co-pilot saying, okay, let's calm down. Let's land it at that tree. So you land the plane, you land this time capsule, whatever. And you get out, but you with the co-pilot, so you're safe. So you've created a distance and this is, I'm spanning in detail and obviously you train and it's all in the book and it's all, I've got an app that explains it too. But this is the mindset that I have trained myself to come into. So I can go into an acute trauma in that mind. I'm still crying, I'm still freaking out.

• 41:29Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 41:30Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  But I'm freaking out in this zone where I now know, because I know that I need wisdom. I need to be able to tap into that and I cannot get through this chaos if this chaotic brain and body if, and mind unless I've calmed it down. So I have to get through this because I'm stuck in that black tree and I'm stuck in this chaotic brain. So.

• 41:48Lewis Howes?

  That be considered, would that be considered like fight or flight, whether it's someone

• 41:51Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  Yes.

• 41:52Lewis Howes?

  cutting you off in front of you in the, on the street in the car or someone yelling at you or someone whatever, an event happening which is causing you to react in fight or flight, whether it's a massive T-trauma or little T-trauma, right?

• 42:04Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  Exactly, exactly. Or an acute trauma, which is the, and the blind signing stuff, the stuff you don't expect, that just hits us up the blue. Yes, absolutely. So you're going into a level of fight and flight. So everything physiologically, fourteen hundred neurophysiological responses are activated to help you focus, but they can't work for you unless you do what I'm telling you to do, which is to shift your perception. So this is the how to. Because as soon as you shift your perception in an instant, because I told you within seconds, I brought the glucose monitor down. And I mean, I didn't even expect it to work that fast. I was amazed. And as it cycled through the twelve hours of the, of the trauma. I was able to manage it more and more. So I mean, it really, and this is not the first time I've done this my whole life, but it was just so interesting seeing it in real time.

• 42:46Lewis Howes?

  Sure.

• 42:46Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  Um, and seeing the reaction. Okay, so.

• 42:49Lewis Howes?

  So step one is to get the co-pilot state of mind to to land the plane.

• 42:53Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  That's the preparation. You haven't even got to step one. So there's preparation.

• 42:56Lewis Howes?

  Land the plane first.

• 42:57Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  Yeah, so that's it. So recognize that you remember there's a co-pilot, which is your wise mind, you, the crazy pilot going all over the place, land the plane, let the co-pilot tell you, okay, land the plane. And you land the plane where you need to, which is at the issue. And what drew you in to land the plane to find the issue was your emotional. So this is step one. You're going to gather awareness and gather means you controlling it. You're not sitting under the apple tree and all the apples are hitting you on the head. You are standing back and you're picking the apple. So there's control, there's a sense of autonomy, a sense of agency. So in the midst of chaos, you can create agency mentally, because your mind's driving it. So you stand back and you say, okay, I picked that apple. So that's my emotional warning signals, terror, despair.

• 43:40Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  At a tw- totally traumatized, like whatever they are, you pick those apples, you put them in your baskets, you're gathering. Then you gather awareness.

• 43:47Lewis Howes?

  So this is ga- gathering kind of your, this is how I, this is how I'm feeling, this is what's happened, this is what's, this is the event.

• 43:55Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  Yes, this is gathering, it's almost, yes, it is, but you're gathering in very four little distinct packages. Because the more organized you are, the more, the less chaos. We've been very systematic.

• 44:05Lewis Howes?

  So what are those four, what are those four things?

• 44:07Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  So you gather awareness of your emotional warning signals. So the despair, anxiety, whatever, panic attack. Then you gather awareness of your physical bodily response. So here's your co-pilot saying, okay, how are you feeling? Gather that apple, gather that apple. What is your physical flattering in the heart, panic attack, tension, gut wrenching, adrenaline, flight, whatever flight and fright, freeze mode you're in. Then your behaviors, what are you saying, what are you doing? You know, I mean, I always like.

• 44:32Lewis Howes?

  How are you responding? How are you responding?

• 44:34Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  Yeah, action. Yeah, what's, what you saying, what are you doing, what you're, you know, what is actually happening? And I'm grabbing this, I'm grabbing that, get this, get that, you know, so what is that? And is it working? I mean, like you. They're just doing this changes how you do things. It's amazing. You immediately go into this different mode. Fourth one is perspective. What's your perspective? This is doomed, this is terrible, this is sucks, this is end, or okay, this is bad, but. You know, watch your, so gather, you gather, then as soon as you've got those, you then go into reflect. So it's very systematic. And then as you've gathered and done all this preparation thing, you've got the two sides of the brain. We've got coherence again, you've got blood flow back to the brain, you've got oxygen back to the front of the brain. When you've got low oxygen and low blood flow at the front of the brain, which happens in a, in a, in a trauma.

• 45:19Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  In an acute situation, in those sudden things, it drops. Then you are impulsive, you're going to make bad decisions, you're going to react incorrectly, you're going to create incoherence. Your alpha wave in the brain drops and becomes more active on the right side. And that's on the right side, which is not great, because that means that we now are not going to have insight. So by doing what I've decided, you change all of that. You bring back coherence, you increase alpha, and it may not be excellent yet. But you've started the process. Then as you move forward through the five steps, and I've put all this brain stuff in the book and what happens and. Um. So I'm just giving you the overview. Um. So then you start now reflecting, okay, what have I got in my basket? So number two, reflect. Reflect is an incredibly beautiful word, as is gather awareness.

• 46:03Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  Gathering awareness, I just want to point out, and earlier on I said that we mustn't be frightened of despair and anxiety and. Trauma and I mean, and the, the, the anxiety, depression, those scary, don't be scared of them because they are messengers, they're helpful messengers. That are telling you something. And if you respond to them in that way, you then control them. But if you respond to them in fear, they control you.

• 46:24Lewis Howes?

  Ooh, yeah.

• 46:25Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  Yeah. And then you're not going to move forward, you're going to get very stuck. And then stuck in rumination and the patterns will just get worse. So get the control. Even though you can, you can be crying, screaming, swearing, I don't care what you're doing, but just get the control, you at the tree, you're doing the stuff. So gather, reflect is, when you think of light going through a prism, it reflects all the colors of the rainbow. So there's depth, there's. That one thing means a lot. And so reflect is this process of being a detective, okay, well, why am I having that reaction? Why am I having? Now, when it's something in the moment, we pretty much know why. I mean, I knew why I was. So I didn't have to do too much reflection, but I had to, the reflection in terms of why, because I knew the cause. But the difference was I needed to reflect to say, okay, if I react like this, this is going to happen.

• 47:08Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  So it was, it was, it was questioning, what are you doing with that emotion? What are you doing with that behavior? Is that behavior helping? So the reflect in that situation would be different to a reflect for someone who is um having a complete and utter um. Um imposter syndrome attack. And it's a pattern and they keep doing it. So they're now working sequentially through the process. So they're gonna have to start finding why, what does it track back to, what level, what sort of self esteem issues are? What is the origin story of it? So that the reflect in that case would be, you know, ask, answer, discuss, why do I feel this? Why, why, why? And so it's a different, so it's, it reflects to just, you know, get meaning. But in a very comprehensive way, because there's all these patterns of meaning.

• 47:51Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  In that acute trauma, it's quick. I'm doing the five steps quick. If I'm working on a pattern over time, I'm gonna spend longer. Third step is you write. And the writing step is, obviously, I was in the midst of a trauma, I couldn't write, so I've visualized. So the quick stuff you can just visualize, or if you can write, write. Writing, I recommend, if you write, write, write in the form of a metacog. I teach you how in the book, and I have a video of a neurocycle app that goes with this.

• 48:14Lewis Howes?

  What's a metacog?

• 48:15Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  A metacog is a pattern form of writing that stimulates, it looks like a tree. You start in the middle and you work on branches and you put words and you don't write whole sentences. You basically just pour information and you literally let it just come out in this pattern format. But each, the, one of the key things is to, is to group, as you, as a thought, as something comes up, you put it on one area. And as something else comes up, you put it wherever. So you have these clusters of information and every word's on a line. And every line goes out of the previous line. And that format is unbelievable. It just drags the two sides of the brain together. Diggs deep and you start getting insight into what you didn't even know was there. And then the fourth step is to then go and sort out that chaos that you've just written down. So the fourth step is to, okay, I've gathered awareness, I've reflected, I'm writing, what does this mean?

• 49:00Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  What's the mental autopsy? What's the, what's the pattern, the activators, the antidotes? What's, how can I reconceptualize this beautiful word reconceptualize? And then you end off the cycle with a little action. And that action, if it's in the moment, like in that five seconds or whatever, it's okay, I'm going to actually take a deep breath. And I'm going to act like this, or I'm gonna say that, or I'm gonna do this. So it's a little action that anchors you back in a state where you can function in the next moment. In that acute trauma or in that imposter moment and imposter syndrome moment. And you've now got to go and into a business meeting, you're feeling like you can't because you're, you know, the imposter syndrome fraud sort of setup. So the, the, in doing it in the quick moment by moment, you're gonna have a simple, quick action.

• 49:42Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  In the big stuff where you're working out the pattern, each day you will have, you do your work for a limited amount of time. And I say do the work because it's not a quick fix. If you're looking for a quick fix, nothing related to greatness is a quick fix or mind. It's time and you know that you experienced that with your whole story and um so essentially you would do it for around fifteen to forty five minutes a day when you're fixing up the big stuff. And you would do it, Lewis, the big stuff, you would do for sixty three days. So that's

• 50:08Lewis Howes?

  Why sixty, why sixty three?

• 50:10Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  Glad you asked that. So we've all been told twenty one days to build a habit. Well, that's a complete myth. I put it in, I wrote about it in the book too. A neurosurgeon, it's not a neurosurgeon, a surgeon many years ago was talking about the physical cycles of healing that our body goes through. Like if you get a blister, it takes about three weeks for the stem cells and everything to form in the immune system to do its job to get rid of the blister. That's assuming that your mind's not a mess. If your mind's a mess, you can chop off sixty percent of that healing time. It'll take sixty percent longer.

• 50:37Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 50:38Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  Sixty percent longer. If your mind's a mess, you increase healing.

• 50:41Lewis Howes?

  If your mind is right, it does it.

• 50:43Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  It does it on time. It does it on time. Sometimes sooner and and and sooner. It depends. It depends on the level of damage. Some and sometimes you'll need one cycle of three, sometimes you'll need multiple. That's for physical healing. Mind healing, however, needs a minimum of three cycles for behavior change.

• 50:59Lewis Howes?

  How how do we, is this scientifically proven or is this?

• 51:02Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  So there's very little research in the twenty one day myth. So I decided to research it and there's a few studies. There's one from University College London. I put them in my book. There's my one that I've just done recently over the in twenty nineteen over twenty twenty. We are tracked and we tracked in the brain what happened. So twenty one days, you get, you get what we call gamma peaks, which means that you've taken this, you've deconstructed it and you've reconstructed it into something healthy. So you've you've changed this thought, but it's X Y. So that's in there, but it's in a different, it looks different. It's like if you take an ugly old house that you're going to renovate, you take lots of photos of all the mold and all the ugly carpets and you bash it down, you build a beautiful new house. You still remember how it was, but you've reconceptualized it. You're living in that new space. You remember the old.

• 51:44Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  Okay, so that's what I'm talking about. That takes twenty one days. So you create to break down and build a thought with memories. Because a thought is a tree made of memories. Memories are what, like a tree's made of branches, thoughts are made of memories. So to make something that's got a level of sustainability takes about twenty one days. And in that twenty one days, after that, if you stop there, it's a tiny little plant in your forest. It doesn't have enough energy to move from the non-conscious mind, inner in. The non-conscious mind operates twenty four seven. It's where all your experiences are stored in thoughts, all your belief systems, you're nurturing, everything about you. And that is influencing your conscious mind. Conscious mind's only awake when you're awake. So right now, as I'm talking,

• 52:23Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  everything that I'm saying is stimulating thoughts from your non-conscious mind to move into your conscious mind to make sense of what I'm saying and to build all this new stuff into thoughts in your trees. So a non-conscious mind, for a thought to move from the non-conscious to the conscious, through the subconscious. So non-conscious, subconscious is the bridge, conscious is when you're awake. Non-conscious, twenty four seven, infinite, huge, massive. And where our wisdom is as well. So the wisdom's through the middle. If you want to imagine a forest, you've got the beautiful dark green strip, which is all your instinctive wisdom, survival stuff, wired for love stuff, optimism bias, and then everything we experience in life is around the edge. Little trees, big trees, dark trees, green trees. The smaller the tree, the newer the experience, or the newer the memory, the weaker the memory.

• 53:05Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  To, that's big established trees are the ones that influence. So those things are powerful. So if it's a big dark tree and it's influencing, it's going to jump into your conscious mind and influence your view. So track backtracking, to get something that's good that you rebuilt, to, to actually influence how you view something, it has to have more energy put into it. Energy's never lost, energy's transferred. Quantum physics talks about energy. These things are. Proteins with energy vibrating in the little protein structures. So you want that they're weak, so you've got to strengthen.

• 53:37Lewis Howes?

  You gotta, you gotta water it, you gotta feed it some fertilizer.

• 53:40Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  Totally. And all you do is it's so easy. Oh, my gosh, it's, it's so easy. From day twenty two to forty to sixty three, you simply do step number five for about a minute a day. That's how simple it is. It's forty two minutes over forty two days. In my Neurocycle app, I've actually got a, an active reminder function that you can type it in. So it pops up on your phone and you can remind yourself to, to do this just, and you literally just read it. And it keeps, just reading it reminds you to do it. And then you're building your strength and you're turning it into behavior change. So to go around, you know, the theme of your podcast, you know, to get to greatness requires behavior change. So real behavior change, if you really want to build a good habit into your life, you're gonna have to spend the sixty three days doing it.

• 54:22Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  So not only is that sixty three days, um, I mean, I've shown it scientifically and so on. Um, not only is it for detoxing the patterns, the traumas, the toxic habits, the small t, big t, as you mentioned, the acute stuff, the bad habits we've developed, but it's also to build new habits. So if you, if you know, you identify this is an area that I want to grow in my life to go to the next level of greatness, whatever that is, you need sixty three days at least and sometimes more. Sometimes a trauma is so embedded and it's blocking your greatness that you might need multiple cycles of sixty three. There's no cookie cutter design, but the more you do that and the more you practice it in the moment by moment, the more self-regulated you become, which brings us right back to the beginning of the conversation,

• 55:04Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  which was that mind is always in action. So you may as well control it. So here I've just told you how to do it. It's pretty much.

• 55:10Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 55:11Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  Which is much the, the nuts and bolts.

• 55:14Lewis Howes?

  What does the neuroscience say behind positive thinking versus negative or toxic thinking? And I, I think this, I don't know what the stat is, it's sixty thousand thoughts a day or something like that we have. And eighty or ninety percent of them are the same recurring thoughts. I, I'm probably off there, but something like.

• 55:31Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  No, no, there's a, there's a lot of stuff like that out there and you're not far off in terms of what the lit, what the, what the media is saying. In terms of, um, the people, I follow people that are heavy into understanding the numbers of, you know, the, from a very neuroscientific perspective, and I've done my own calculations, the, we build around about eight to ten thousand thoughts a day. So rebuilding, so that's sort of how many events we experience. It could be more. These are very, very, very, very, very average numbers. It really is. So it's somewhere, so it's somewhere between eight and eighteen thousand that we build. So we build in response to what we experience. So whatever's new is built, but then to build, you also have the thoughts popping up. So at any one moment, so you, you know, we can work in ten second blocks. That's what neuroscience shows us

• 56:16Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  just to give you some kind of tangible thing to handle, hang on to. In any one ten second moment, you can literally have anything from one to thirteen thoughts that will move from the non-conscious and maybe more and in as well and also build a couple of thoughts in that thought with one thought, but with multiple, maybe a hundred memories in that. So there's, that's, that's a hundred and twenty odd things happening in any ten second block.

• 56:44Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 56:44Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  And multiply that by sixty seconds, you know, or times six. So in one minute, so you can really see the numbers as they multiply. So that's where we get anywhere between eight thousand we build and then probably about another ten thousand are coming up. So eighteen thousand seems to be a more, but whatever the number is, it doesn't really matter. It's a lot.

• 57:05Lewis Howes?

  We have a lot of thoughts.

• 57:06Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  We have a lot of.

• 57:06Lewis Howes?

  A lot of them are more negative, it seems like, right?

• 57:09Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  Not necessarily. If you look over, the only reason it feels like that is because the negative get more attention, not because they are, um, not because you're wired that way, but because they have created complete disruption in your brain. So we see.

• 57:24Lewis Howes?

  Stronger physical reaction, right?

• 57:26Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  And you've got to get rid of it. It's, it's, it's against your survival. So you're going to pay attention to whatever's threatening your survival. Think of it. If someone's at your front door and they're trying to bash your front door down and you've got your family to protect, you're going to pay attention. You're not going to sit and watch TV. You're going to pay attention to what's catch, what's, what's a threat to your survival. That's why we, so it's not that we have more negative thoughts.

• 57:45Lewis Howes?

  When we're relaxed and calm, we're not thinking, ah, I need to fix this. We're, that's, we're just relaxing and hanging out, but it's when there's a thought that's negative, we put a lot of attention on it.

• 57:54Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  Exactly. It's the, it's the big tree in the forest. It's where, whatever you think about the most will grow. So you may have this huge infinite forest of green. The strip through the middle is the wise mind that can't ever change. The majority is green, small trees, big trees, and you're going to have clusters of the black in between. Some people will have more because they've had more abuse, you know, as I said, thirty, forty percent, well, twenty, thirty percent of the population, depending on where you are, which country. Um would have more experience, more trauma, socioeconomic, you know, abuse, war, etc. So war war torn countries will find more PTSD, higher percentages than in somewhere like and less war torn country and that kind of thing. But on average, the forest is mainly green, but whatever's getting the most attention in your life, if you're living in war torn something,

• 58:37Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  or if you're living in an abusive situation, or you're living in with a bullying boss, or you're living under the threat of someone in your family who's really ill, that's what's going to dominate. So it's not that we have more negative thoughts, it's because that is um survival, threatening our survival, it's creating brain damage, we've got to get rid of it, we've got to manage it, it's a call to management. Paying attention to the toxic is a call to management. It's created disruptions in the gravitational field. Think of those, those, oh, I I need to get an an image, there's a movie and I don't know which one it is, but it's those, you know, you get that ripple effect, it's moving through like a um like a field or something and you can almost, you know, they create with the movies, they create that ripple effect. Do you know what, can you visualize something like that? Okay, that's what's happening with the mind, so we've got these ripples.

• 59:22Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  It's not just trees that are standing still, there's these ripples, but even around then that ripple is toxic, so it's like it's going to be very disruptive. And that sends out this, this, it upsets the neuro, the the balance in the unconscious mind. And it's linked to a physical, so the the the this gravitational field wave disruption storm is linked to one of these in the physical brain, so it's in the storms there, somewhere there, so maybe it's there. And then it's also there, this thing in there, so those are linked and those are threatening your survival, so they will get your attention. And your attention is to go fix. So if we suppress.

• 59:57Lewis Howes?

  So if we suppress in terms of what, not pay attention, not be aware, uh medicate, take drugs, uh drink, whatever the addiction is to cope, as opposed to address it, what happens?

• 1:00:11Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  Well, they, so essentially, I'm glad you brought that up, so addiction's not a disease, we're not caught by the chemical and the chemicals do change your brain, I've just explained that, but your mind can override any biological change, because your mind's more powerful than your brain. And that's how we, you know, you can always draw on that internal survival. Instinct, which is that internal strip of green trees, just for the analogy sake. So addiction isn't a disease, addiction is a response, like depression. It's a warning signal. It's trying to take something that's painful and taking something to numb the pain. So as you said, the sex, the pornography, the um. Alcohol, smoking. The drugs, the smoking, yeah. So you often find, exactly. So if you find someone, who was talking to someone yesterday, who had a tremendous um battle with cocaine and alcohol.

• 1:00:56Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  But it wasn't those that grabbed them. We get the impression that, oh, your brain's diseased, therefore you're vulnerable to those and you can't control it. Nonsense, that's taken all the hope. People are dying from lack of hope, Lewis. That's, that's what that statistic I spoke about earlier, the reversal of trends. People are dying from lack of hope, deaths of despair. When you take away people's sense of agency, you're taking away the most core dynamic of who you are as a human. Your mind is all about agency, think, feel, choose. You control that. And you remove that agency from someone by saying, hey, you can't control the fact that you're addicted to alcohol. Or that you're addicted to, that's terrible. But if you say, okay, I see that that is where you're finding your coping strategy at the moment, that having the alcohol is numbing the pain.

• 1:01:39Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  Having, take, having the, you know, the pornography, the, the, the repeated, whatever, the abuse of, whatever, abuse of anything to, to, to hide it, the opioid addiction. It's, it's just to numb the pain. So once a person is in a loving, supportive environment where they can start seeing that change, then they can start seeing why. Then you can take them through the process of, okay, well, let's see, maybe that signal has got a cause and let's start finding. And when you start working through the neuro cycle, they, I can tell you now, most of the time, they're still addicted to something because the pain's so bad. And they're denying this is a disease because it's easier to accept that initially. But they deny, no, I don't, I, I'm not addicted to alcohol. I'm not, I'm not addicted to, to whatever, the um cocaine, I'm not addicted.

• 1:02:22Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  But once you start lovingly showing them, okay, well, let's talk about, forget about the, the which, the substance. Let's talk about you, what's going on, what's happened. And when you start doing that, then I'm depressed and this and this, and then the things start coming up. And as soon as you start getting that cycle happening, then the person is more able to say, oh, I see, I've been trying to numb my pain. And then you can start getting the release. Eighty-six to ninety-three percent of people that are addicted get out of addiction through choice. And that choice is stimulated by a supportive, a super supportive, loving environment that is helps people to see what's going on. Cause it's very hard to face that stuff. So we can live in a state of denial.

• 1:03:03Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  And so that's what takes a lot of good supportive and good therapy and good environments, you know, supportive environments. But to tell someone, I'm always an addict is one of the worst things you can say. You're saying, okay, you have no power.

• 1:03:14Lewis Howes?

  Right, right. I'm a victim to this chemical imbalance or whatever it might be. Yeah.

• 1:03:18Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  But that's not the case and it's and it may take you years. I mean, I, I, I was speaking to someone the other day who was, as I said, a cocaine battling with, I mean, all kinds of stuff. And now is one of the most amazing people, helping other people, doing the most incredible work. That person had been raped multiple times as a child, but came from a very wealthy family. And babysitter who looked after him when he was, parents were so busy working, was repeatedly raping this child through his childhood. And then got, I mean, it happened again at university and this and this and different work environments and and in different parts of the world, when he traveled to the different parts of the world. And that's where, so he had to get to the point where he realized he was numbing the pain. You know, so that's, so if you can see, we have to shift the narrative.

• 1:04:01Lewis Howes?

  Absolutely.

• 1:04:01Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  This is, and these are extreme cases, but there's also the day to day. I mean, we've got to live with ourself. Someone the other day said to me, well, that's all in well of relationship, big extreme. What about just sitting here with myself? And I can't sleep at night and I'm worrying about like, you know, the things that on, I can still get through life, but I'm ruminating and I'm overthinking and I'm stuck in anger and you know, that's that too. We've got to manage all of that.

• 1:04:24Lewis Howes?

  Man, that was my, that was 25 years of my life. Cause I, I talked about being sexually abused when I was five and having anger and resentment and frustration and rage for 25 years until I was, until I actually started opening up and talking about it. Until I did therapy, until I did, uh, you know.

• 1:04:41Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  EMDR and.

• 1:04:42Lewis Howes?

  Yeah. I, I mean, I did every type of therapeutic experience I could do. Um, and it, it really truly gave me the, the environment of love, support and peace to. Begin the path of setting me free, setting the pain and the trauma free by giving it a voice, by expressing it, by

• 1:04:59Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  Beautiful.

• 1:05:00Lewis Howes?

  Doing the work. And it didn't happen overnight.

• 1:05:02Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  No.

• 1:05:03Lewis Howes?

  Eight years later, it's still an ongoing thing of healing.

• 1:05:06Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  It will be.

• 1:05:07Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, it's much easier and I can have a conversation about it with ease where eight years ago, I would, you know, be crying, talking about it.

• 1:05:15Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  That's X Y. That's the X plus Y because X Y you've reconceptualized. You're able to talk. Sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you, but that's what you've done. You've been, you've been neurocycling without knowing it. Now, if you formally start neurocycling, if you start a daily program, you're going to start unwiring it even more. You're going to get even more control over the accumulation of all the things that happened. I mean, that's just what I would recommend that you try it out.

• 1:05:40Lewis Howes?

  For sure, for sure. It's a, so what should we be thinking when toxic thoughts about ourselves? I'm not good enough. I'll never amount to anything. I shouldn't try this. This person doesn't like me. Drama, stress, anxiety, whatever it is, when we have a toxic thought that doesn't support our dreams, it doesn't support the betterment of our future and our vision, what should we be thinking in terms of replacing that, in terms of the process? Or is that something we shouldn't be rejecting negative thoughts? We should be analyzing and being aware, but how do we do it without consuming our life?

• 1:06:17Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  Okay. So you, you kind of answered the question, the second part. That's what you do. The only way to get control is to embrace and to process and reconceptualize. And you do it in a very accepting manner. So it's like getting to the helicopter and be the messy pilot and be the co-pilot. Yeah. And get, get into that state of mind because then, and then it's very non-judgmental that you start by telling yourself, like the very first thing as you're getting in the helicopter, whichever point in you in is to say, it's okay. It's okay. There's been a million, billion people who have been in the same position as you that are battling. In fact, most people battle with self-esteem. It's very few people that don't, for some reason, battle with self-esteem. For example, just take that example, thinking I can't do this, why I am ashamed. Because every

• 1:07:00Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  toxic experience we have completely rips at the core of who we are. And the core of who we are is I'm needed, I'm valuable, and I have something to contribute to the world that no one else can contribute. So when someone tries to take that away from you through an abuse or That is has attacked the core of you, so you kind of hide amongst shame and and self esteem comes out of this, I shouldn't be feeling this, but especially a young child like five to be abused. You don't know how to process that. So the most immediate thing is because it's so against survival, because the adult in your life who's supposed to be the protector, everything's distorted. You don't have the language, you don't have the the the brain power yet, the mind power yet to process.

• 1:07:42Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  So your coping strategy will be, well, this made me feel bad, so I am bad. So you tend to have this pervasiveness, sexual trauma tends to create a pervasiveness of shame. And that comes out in all kinds of behavioral manifestations, whether it's withdrawal, whether it's being difficult, aggressive, and it's pervasive and and that that attacks self esteem because something at the core of who you are has been attacked. And that's why one it takes time, as we as you spoke about, to go back and and and find that. So in terms of what you say to someone, the first thing is to get to the point where we have to change our narrative. We have to forget what the world said about all these scary words and see those as very helpful. It's a complete ninety degree or three hundred and sixty degree change.

• 1:08:24Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  despair, anxiety, shame, thinking I am shame, thinking I have no self esteem, thinking I can't do this. That's okay. Because as soon as you say that's okay, as soon as you can admit you're feeling that, you've controlled it. You've now

• 1:08:37Lewis Howes?

  You've got power back, yeah.

• 1:08:39Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  You've got the power back, you've shifted the power balance. So instead of, um if this is now in the unconscious, it's this former, it's the five year old, it's gone through the years, whatever. And there's been this, and I'm not saying you did this, but there may have been a period that you suppressed because you didn't know how to process it till maybe fifteen, sixteen, seventeen, when you were getting more cognit, metacognitively able and sort of seeing things. Maybe it was older. Very often it hits around between eighteen, twenty two, where early childhood trauma, where we start seeing those patterns manifesting and a bit of awareness coming. So now that when this comes into consciousness, in the brain, this thing is now weakened. So these protein branches, which are the memories and the emotions, the data. Of the event, which was that.

• 1:09:22Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 1:09:22Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  Is now weakened. So the minute I, through my tears, say, okay, I am, I feel, I, I feel shame. I feel like I've got no self-esteem. I feel like I'm useless and I'm ugly and I'm this and I'm that and I can't even achieve anything. The minute I can accept that, I can look at that objectively, pilot, co-pilot. And the co-pilot can say, what do you feel? I feel, okay, let's now see if that's real. And that whole calm, just the way I'm speaking, calm, it's okay. Own it, it's fine, it's okay. Now we can fix it. That weakened these chemical bonds, protein bonds, I've started changing the structure in my brain. I've now shifted fourteen hundred neurophysiological responses to work for me instead of against me. I've now started recreating balance in the brain, I've increased blood flow.

• 1:10:05Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  So I'm setting myself up to be more resilient, to do the very hard work of unpacking. And it gets worse before it gets better. And the, the, the, one of the really good things that I have presented in, in my work and in, in this book is to, to know that scientifically I've shown that even if you feel worse, which you will, when you unpack this and you start seeing stuff that you suppress. It's terrible. It's heartbreaking. It can make you feel like you just wanna die.

• 1:10:31Lewis Howes?

  That's how I felt. When I started talking about it, I was like, this is the scariest, hardest thing that I've ever done. I'd ra- I'd almost rather die. Like, it's the feeling that you have, you're like, if anyone ever knew these things about me, if I had to truly face these things.

• 1:10:45Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  Hmm.

• 1:10:45Lewis Howes?

  It's the most scary, challenging thing I've ever emotionally had to deal with.

• 1:10:50Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  Hmm.

• 1:10:51Lewis Howes?

  And it feels like you're dying.

• 1:10:53Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  Die.

• 1:10:53Lewis Howes?

  I don't know, I mean, maybe that's too extreme, maybe that's too extreme, but I think you're thinking or feeling like, I'm gonna die 'cause if I process this and if people knew this about me.

• 1:11:04Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:04Lewis Howes?

  How could they ever accept me? How could they ever love me? I'm gonna be alone for the rest of my life. Like, you, your mind, my mind went through these thoughts.

• 1:11:11Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:11Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:12Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  And there's like no meaning and there's no purpose and what can you do? And it's a waste of time and I can't live with myself like this and it's so terrible. And I just, I can't do this. And then you start rejecting people around you or you make wrong decisions. It's totally normal. That is normal. You need to accept that about the process. It will get worse before it gets better and that's okay. And and and it's totally what you've gone through is normal and and we can't go and label that and medicate that. Then I invalidate your experience. By you being able to talk about your experience, this format of of having a podcast where around the world now where people are being much more vulnerable and opening, it's bringing this into the open and it's enabling us to then be able to weaken that. You've shifted the power balance. And it does get worse. As you said, you want to die. It's so bad. But then the shift starts happening.

• 1:11:56Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  Because look where you are today. A shift happens at some point when it really gets dark. You may even have tried to commit suicide or you may even have got to the point where this is it, I'm out of here. Or something traumatic, really traumatic and then you suddenly there's that shift, there's that awareness and then you can start rebuilding. And you know, that is a time process and that's that shift is real. It's what you you asked me about, what would you say to someone who's in that state? Where do you start? You start by giving yourself permission. You start by getting into the co-pilot pilot seat, by letting that pilot fly like a maniac. And you know, crash the plane, it's a time capsule, you can get that plane going again. But helping leaning on the power and the comfort of the co-pilot to say,

• 1:12:39Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  I'm really scared of that. I don't want to land my plane. You land, but I will. And you land your plane. And there you take out your spades and you start the process of getting to eventually digging this whole thing up. And slowly, as you're ready, that's why I say fifteen to forty five minutes a day. You don't do longer. You do a little bit at a time and you do as many cycles as you need. And eventually it gets to the point where you have reconceptualized.

• 1:13:01Lewis Howes?

  How do we, I mean, how do we truly heal the trauma of the past? Uh, that causes a lot of our thoughts. Cause I hear like the, I'm hearing you say that I'm feeling the traumas, the memories of the past that we had from the event. And we're holding on to the memory, the idea, the thought of the event. And sometimes we, we, and a lot of the times I would go to say, uh, you know, I'll speak for myself and I'm thinking most of us probably.

• 1:13:24Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:25Lewis Howes?

  An event happens and our memories after decades and years build it up into something bigger and more extreme potentially than the event actually was. And we're holding on to, now our mind is coming up with memories that weren't even real that caused this reaction in us. So how do we really, is it healing the trauma of the past? Is it healing the memory of the past? Is it healing all of it?

• 1:13:48Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  What is, what is going on?

• 1:13:50Lewis Howes?

  What should we do? Is it only through therapy? Can we do it alone through just journaling?

• 1:13:55Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  You can do it alone. You can do it with therapy. You can do it. I would never do anything completely alone. I would make sure you have some sort of support system. Um, if you can get to therapy, it will definitely help. But therapy is a catalyst. It's not actually, and it's your place where you can unpack the pain and get the guidance for how to manage the next step. But you're still living with yourself 24/7.

• 1:14:13Lewis Howes?

  You gotta do the work. Yeah.

• 1:14:14Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  You've got to do the work. And this is where having a system of mind management is so vital. So what you've described is the whole thought tree. And that thought tree, let's take the incident of, of what you went through as a child. And that would have been, you know, what the actual incident would have been is the roots.

• 1:14:31Lewis Howes?

  The event. Yep.

• 1:14:31Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  And then your, the event and, and the details and the timing and the, all the, everything. And that then builds your perspective of how you viewed yourself and, and how you viewed this whole, which this is your, and your emotions and the data. And that manifested in how you actually lived your life.

• 1:14:45Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:46Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  So that's a trauma from the past. There's no guilt in this, even though it's toxic, because that's all you could do to survive. It's a coping mechanism. So this toxic tree is a coping mechanism. So we've got this inbuilt, um, thing in our mind and our brain that in, or system that enables us, because this should wipe you out. You shouldn't even be alive kind of thing. If you look at the natural biology, but there's this protective system in place that kind of cocoons it for a season until you're ready to deal with it. So that's, you know, there, and then something will come in, an event will come in your life where now you have to deal with it. And sometimes we ignore that. We ignored it a few times before we do, and then eventually, so there's kind of a cocoon. So it's protective. So it

• 1:15:28Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  is damaging, but because you're not ready to deal with it, it's not wiping you out. It's still causing problems. It's still creating a few shock waves there in the ground and that kind of thing. But when you're ready to, you know, then suddenly something will happen in your life and. It's being, it's slowly infiltrating, it's a slow infiltration. So it's sending out little tendrils, you know, it's growing that you're still surviving, but things are getting worse and worse. And eventually that, eventually this cocoon starts breaking down and it explodes in your mentally, physically, in something, in a relationship, in a work environment, in a, it builds a cascade and little things happen and eventually there's a big explosion. That's this thing, the cocoon's starting to come off as you are maturing and getting older and doing more with your life and experiencing more, this has to then get sorted out.

• 1:16:13Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  So your body gets to a point where it has to reject it, it has, the pus has to go. For want of an awful analogy, but it's a good example. At some point you can't stay there anymore. And that's when it explodes. And when it explodes, these are all the memories. As you recall it, this is the concept of the abuse as a child. That's the thought. This is the detail of the story and that's how you experienced it. And so you've got to go from your, the, those warning signals back to the data here.

• 1:16:39Lewis Howes?

  How you experience it back to the actual moment, yeah.

• 1:16:42Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  And then you reconceptualize. So how do you make it play out in your future? That's always part of your story. But you change how, like you've already done it. You said it earlier, you can talk about it now without falling apart, but at some point you could not talk about it at all.

• 1:16:54Lewis Howes?

  No, you rewrite the script. Yeah.

• 1:16:56Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  You rewrite and that, and that takes time. That takes these cycles of sixty-three days. You literally, reconceptualization is rewriting the script. So eventually this goes, you then have this. And that now, instead of being toxic is, can you see some of these leaves are shining a little brighter than the others?

• 1:17:12Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:17:13Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  Okay, so there is that in that. It's reconceptualized. I can now talk about it. I can now, it's, that'll make you cry, but you've now turned it into a part of your, you've redesigned it. You've, it's the, it's the beautiful new space. That's how it was. But now you, you've, you've made it work for you instead of against you. So that is then the trauma of the past, which is, there's no excuse in that. There's no forgiveness even in that, but you need to be released. Because if you're still connected to that trauma, kept there, keeps, keeps you connected in the quantum world, literally to the, to the abuser. So until we release, so there's a connection. So you literally, here's your brain, here's that person, maybe ten thousand miles away. But because of entanglement in quantum physics, there's no space-time dimension.

• 1:17:58Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  And there's, because of that's a toxic entanglement, but when particles are entangled. And you may have heard of this somewhere with someone saying this, but when two particles are put in a relationship in quantum physics experiments, no matter how far apart they are shot, they still are in relationship. So this one turns this way, this one will turn this way. So until you release, until you reconceptualize, you're still connected. So that will always be controlling you. So when we talk about, people say forgiveness, I think release is a better word because how do you forgive? These, these, going through this process over time, as you reconceptualize, you're slowly cutting the ties. So as you, so by the time it's in this format, no longer is that invisible tie there. You know that you've cut the tie when you can actually talk about it and you're

• 1:18:40Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  not excusing that person's behavior. That can never, actually what they've done can never be forgiven. If you think of it, but you can release it. So we talk about forgiveness as being part of a healing, but we've got to, I had this discussion with someone the other day, we've got to be very careful of using the term forgiveness loosely. Because when someone's done something wrong, that wrongness, even whatever you've done wrong to someone, that wrongness is always there. What is forgiven is what, what's, what should be done is we should release. We should realize that that was a moment in time it was wrong, the person needs to own it, but it's not your responsibility to make that person own it. They have to unpack that wrongness and kind of work through that. What you have to do is be released from it and to put that into your past. And that's kind of the easiest thing to do because a lot of people keep getting stuck because they think, I can't

• 1:19:25Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  forgive, I can't forgive. How can I forgive someone who's, how do you forgive someone who's raped you? How does your parents forgive someone who's hurt their child? You know, how do you, how does, how, how does, when you've, someone's murdered, you know, that, I'm not saying that you have to keep that and not, you know, you, you have to get, you have to release yourself from that.

• 1:19:44Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:45Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  And you have to accept that that event, maybe that person was operating out of trauma. So the reason for them doing that was trauma driven. And it doesn't make it right. It makes it, but we can't ignore it. And what I think we've also tried to do with a lot of sort of psychological approaches is, oh, forgive, especially in the religious community, forgiveness, it's all gone, it's all gone away. It hasn't. It's still there. It's part of a story. I think the kintsugi principle explains it the best. You know the kintsugi principle? The Japanese art.

• 1:20:13Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, go ahead.

• 1:20:13Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  When a, when a, when a vase shatters to the ground and it's in a thousand pieces, they don't sweep the pieces away. When you were raped as a child, your life was shattered, okay? But you didn't sweep the pieces away. Every, what they did was they collect every piece and they meticulously rebuilt the vase with gold lacquer and platinum. So now you have this beautiful new vase with all the gold and platinum represents what you've gone through. It's enriched you, who you are as a person. Now you are helping others through your story. You are teaching others. You have, you as a leader are one of the three percent only that are enabling others to talk about their trauma. Only three percent of leaders are talking about mental health. Three percent globally. That's terrible.

• 1:20:55Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 1:20:56Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  So if we as leaders don't talk about it, how do we give permission to those that are following to talk about it? So as a leader, as you talk, you've now taken the Kintsugi principle. You are showing us your gold cracks, the shining light in the leaves. And it's, the, the trauma is shocking. We never forgive that is wrong. We can never say that's right. It's never right, right? But what you've done with it is right. And now you can turn it into helping others go into greatness.

• 1:21:20Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:21Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  That's kind of the, the transformation.

• 1:21:23Lewis Howes?

  Wow. I'm curious, how do we, what's the process of protecting our mental health on a daily basis? Whether we've, it sounds like first we need to be aware of and do the process of healing the past or the, the traumatic memories of the past, however you want to call it. But what's the process of protecting the present and the future so that we don't fall back into a dark space that, that kind of keeps us there for so long?

• 1:21:48Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  Absolutely.

• 1:21:48Lewis Howes?

  Is there a process you recommend?

• 1:21:51Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  There is, and it's self-regulation. It's being very, very self-regulated. And we see from neuroscience, and I actually have a little quote in the book where, I think I've got it, I think I actually had it open because I was, I did it, I actually did a little, a live on it today. But you can, every, I can tell you what it is. Every 10 seconds, there it is. Every, I thought I had the page open. Every 10 seconds, you can be consciously aware of what you're thinking, feeling and choosing. Mental peace and keeping yourself in a state of mental peace comes from being aware every 10 seconds. Now, I'm not asking you to set your watch and your time on your phone. I'm just saying that translate that out, that means all the time. That as, when you're awake, you need to be standing back and observing your own thinking.

• 1:22:35Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  You need to be thinking, okay, what am I thinking in this moment? How am I reacting in this moment? I wake up, I feel great. And then I read an email, I feel lousy. Or I wake up feeling on edge, why? I'm talking to this person, how am I reacting? How am I responding? I'm doing this email, I'm doing this work, what's my... It's constantly monitoring and that may sound exhausting, but it's not. It's the most natural thing in the world. It's one of the most brain healthy things you can do. So that's the one key is self-regulation. As you neurocycle, as you get into the habit of neurocycling, your self-regulation skills are trained to a level where it changes your life. Honestly, if I had just saw what, say, what protects my mental health? It's my increased self-regulation from constantly living a life of neurocycling.

• 1:23:17Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  Then the other thing in the neurocycling that is phenomenal for protecting mental health, which no one speaks about, I don't happen to, anyone except me speak about this, and it's called brain building. And there's a whole section in the book on brain building. And that's taking the five steps of the neurocycle to learn new information. As humans...

• 1:23:35Lewis Howes?

  Like, what does that mean? A new skill or a new...

• 1:23:37Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  New, every day, new data. So for me, I will take my scientific research. Every day I spend at least an hour looking at neuroscientific or scientific studies related to my field of work, studying new information, the latest. So I study it to the point where I could actually give a lecture on it, or I could write an exam on it. So I take the five steps and I study information. Every day when you wake up, you have millions of new baby nerve cells. And they, nerve cells look like trees. And they are waiting for you to be, to, like lattices, to strengthen the new cells, the new thoughts that you build, into the neurons of your brain, these little branches, these thoughts. And if you don't use them... They become toxic waste, so that affects your sleep at the end of the day and affects

• 1:24:20Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  your dreams and cumulatively over time, they affect your health of your brain. So when you, when you brain build, it's like cleaning your teeth. If you don't clean your teeth every day, eventually you're gonna have a real problem with your teeth and your brain because it's gonna cause all kinds of issues in your body and so on. Same thing with brain building. Brain building builds mental and physical resilience. So by learning something, we actually think deeply. When you neurocycle to brain build, what I'm doing is getting you to think super deeply. And when you think deeply, you make all these great things happen in the brain, the left, right side, oxygen and all that stuff. And that's the only way you can actually grab those new, those new baby dendrites. They respond to deep thinking. They don't respond to shallow thinking. They don't respond to scanning through headlines and hurry sickness and rush, rush, rush and data capturing and

• 1:25:05Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  never doing anything. They respond to, oh, that's, I scan the headlines, that interests me, let me read that article and study it. As though I'm gonna write an exam. Or I'm reading this great book, or take my book and study it, you know, study that every day for an hour. You'll get, you'll not only get the tools, but you'll be building your brain, whatever. Take anything you're interested in. If you love cooking, if you love whatever you are interested in, self-help books, anything. Don't just read, study them. Use the five steps, take an hour a day. If you can do more, do more, and you will transform your mental health. All my patients, when they came into my practice, I would obviously evaluate and do all that kind of thing. We'd work out sort of where the issues were. But we would always do brain building first. Sometimes for a few sessions, I would only do brain building and get them to a state where I could recognize they're starting to

• 1:25:47Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  get more resilient and self-regulated. Then we would start doing the trauma work and the learning disability work and the work with trauma, you know, working with traumatic brain injury. We would, and in fact, all the traumatic brain injury and stroke work that I would do with my patients, like if I was working with someone like what your dad went through, I would teach the, the patient and the family, brain building. We would take, what are you interested in? And like if your dad was interested, let's say in whatever, let's say he was interested in, I don't know, what was your dad interested in?

• 1:26:15Lewis Howes?

  Into uh playing piano, singing, sports, running, yeah.

• 1:26:19Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  Okay, so you could take maybe sports and you could then use the brain building. You can do this with him now. You can take the brain building and take uh sports, you don't just read it, but you actually study it. You do the five steps and you've studied as though you are now going to give a lecture, dad, you're going to now teach this. That's what I would do with with my patients. And then we would slowly restore function. Cause that changes the, it orders the gravitational fields, orders the brain, changes and directs the neuroplasticity and healing comes. And you start transforming, I had CEOs of of of top companies in South Africa. Have terrible car accidents and completely lose their functionality, not be able to function.

• 1:26:59Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  Do this brain building in the whole for over a period of time and go back and become something else. So like the one guy was an engineer but went into management and became the CEO of a huge corporation. Had this terrible car accident, ended up going back and becoming a top engineer with brain damage. So I mean, like I've had pilots that at eighty two that couldn't fly anymore, that have become accountants. I mean, I can tell you a story after story. When I'm in the most distressed state, like that night of acute trauma that I told you about. Besides the glucose monitoring, besides doing the neurocycling, what did I do? I did brain building. I sat there, brain building. To calm myself down in that state. So I would shift between the the management neurocycle to the brain building neurocycle.

• 1:27:41Lewis Howes?

  To try to learn and understand something, yeah.

• 1:27:43Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  And that, but that built resilience. So it calmed me down. If I'm worked up, I'll go to brain building. If I'm really out of it and I'm not managing and I'm feeling like I'm getting super anxious or depressed or something. I will even go into ten minutes of brain building. I'll grab a study, study it, do the brain building and I've immediately increased my resilience.

• 1:28:00Lewis Howes?

  Does brain building only happen when you're studying and learning something or is it more of like, okay, I'm gonna play. Like ping pong or play a sport or do an activity to help like hand eye coordination?

• 1:28:11Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  Yes, no, definitely. You can do that too. So ping pong is fantastic for the brain. You know, anything that really challenges the brain to coordinate is definitely going to be a brain building exercise. So, you know,

• 1:28:20Lewis Howes?

  Got it.

• 1:28:21Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  Uh, racquetball, tennis, uh, ping pong, you know, things that are

• 1:28:24Lewis Howes?

  Sidholkus, whatever, yeah.

• 1:28:26Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  Yeah, you can do those two. So do those, those are more physical related. So I would balance, I would balance the physical with the mental so that you do the cognitive as well. I mean, both are mental, I shouldn't say that.

• 1:28:36Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:28:36Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  Uh, uh, um, lit, sort of, um, um, text and physical. Make sure that your brain build with, with a combination.

• 1:28:45Lewis Howes?

  You know, I feel like a lot of parents in general don't have the tools to have conversations with their kids around mental health. Um, you know, I don't remember much of my parents, although they're amazing, I don't remember us talking about mental health and, um, these, these challenges that might arise, these emotions and these feelings that might arise for us at different times, in the ways of how to manage it properly, as, as like the tools that are now being discovered in, in research like you have today. What conversations should parents be having with their kids around mental health in order to make them feel safe, seen and loved with the confusion that they have maybe as teenagers or young, young adults, uh, in today's world?

• 1:29:29Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  I love your question and it's so important. We should be doing this from babies. So when a child comes home from school and they may be three or four years old and they sad, they don't have the language, but to be able to actually notice and validate, I see you feeling sad, why are you sad? And what, and you know, give them toys to be able to act out. The older they get, never overlook a child's emotion, always validate, I see you sad, do you want to talk about it? I see you. So it's, it's, I see you. Do you notice I'm saying, I see you? And you can find your own wording of that, but it's to acknowledge which validates and never to judge or say, oh, you don't need to feel like that. What parents do a lot unintentionally, I'm a parent of four, I did it even with all my knowledge. I have, uh, so we make mental messes. I say we make mental messes

• 1:30:11Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  all the time, but it's very important not, if someone, your child comes to you and says, I, I'm really worried. And and then you say, what are you worried about? I'm worried about this one doing something that you think is totally irrelevant. Oh, that's not so bad. You don't have to worry about that. That is the worst thing you can do to your child because what you've done is invalidate something that for them is now they feel shame. So now they've got um this confusion of worry, they don't know how to process it. And you know what?

• 1:30:39Lewis Howes?

  And you haven't accepted their feelings or their thoughts.

• 1:30:42Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  That's it. So it's very important, even if you don't think that that it's valid. You're not helping them saying, and I know it's done often with the intention of, oh, it's not so bad. It'll be okay. Calm down. Don't do that. It's it's rather sit down and embrace it. So, okay, how, let's talk about how you're feeling. Why do you think you've go through the five steps? I've actually got in my Neurocycle app, I've got a a whole thing on how to um use neurocycling for children. And I'm writing, I've written books in the past, but now we're doing the updated versions of neurocycling for. They're any tots, neurocycling for young kids, teenagers, whatever. So exactly how to have the conversations. But it's openness. One of the things that I have as a parent. Um and I I mean, I've worked with a lot, I did used to do a lot of family therapy when I practice.

• 1:31:23Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  And as a the advice I always gave parents and that I've tried to apply as much as possible is keep our environment open. Keep it no matter what your kids, if your kids want to talk to you about sex and and things that you don't want to talk about. If you don't want to talk about them, they're going to talk about them somewhere else. And that goes for emotions too. We've got to allow our kids to say, I am feeling depressed. The other day, someone said, how do I help my child not be a professor of depression? And it was quite an an interesting way of phrasing it. And my response to that was, well. Help them process it. If they're a professor of depression, what can you learn from them? They, if you feel that they are so good at depression, there's, that's a symptom or a signal of something going on. You need to acknowledge that and say, I see you feeling depressed.

• 1:32:05Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  Can you explain more? And then work through the whole, get those, you know, the five steps, work through it systematically. You can use a lot of visuals with kids. I mean, I've been doing this with kids when I was practicing and training in schools and things as young as three. And I would take the brain, listen through your old's respond to this. They will, and I'll say, this is in your brain and it'll take a tree. Okay, so now this is this happy tree, the sad tree. And you work through, okay, what are you feeling? What's the, what's the sad? Give me, and you give them the words and then let's see, what are you doing? What, and you work through systematically through the process. And you say, okay, so this is where it's kind. And it might take a few days, same, so it's the same process, but you're orientating them to their level. And then what you're doing is you're modeling. What to do. At the same time, don't hide your feelings as a parent.

• 1:32:46Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 1:32:46Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  You know, there's so much.

• 1:32:47Lewis Howes?

  Don't act perfect.

• 1:32:48Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  No, because it's in the mess that they see European grow. Mess is how they learn. So you make a mess, you get mad at your child for no reason. And then you feel guilt and condemnation. Let's, don't do that. If you get mad, explain why you're mad. Say, I'm really mad. I'm sorry. I said the wrong thing. I was, I didn't mean to do that. This is why I did it. But this thing that we mustn't let a child grow up, oh, you're the mother, you chose to have me. Therefore, you've got to be perfect. And if you fail, you've messed up my life forever. That's not healthy for a child. And that's what happens. And it's bad for the parent and the child. And well, the parents pretending, oh, no, everything's fine. And in the meanwhile, behind closed doors, you and your husband are having a huge fight, or you and your wife are having. That's so confusing. When my husband and I have an argument, we, the kids grew up knowing why.

• 1:33:32Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  We explained, okay, we were wrong. We shouldn't have said this. This is why we argued, and this is our solution. You know, and it's such that authenticity and that honesty. And you know what? They may not like it always because it can be quite scary, but life is scary. And you've got to give, you've got to give people, your kids, the tools to know that, hey, this is how I'm managing it and I'm an adult and I still battle. So when they're an adult and they're battling, they don't think, oh, gosh, I'm an adult. I'm supposed to be like my mother who was perfect. No, my mother still cries. My dad still gets upset. But they've got a management plan. So it's that authenticity and honesty. Does that answer the question?

• 1:34:05Lewis Howes?

  Absolutely. Uh, I've got a couple of final questions for you. This has been fascinating. Um, really inspired by all this, and I can't wait to dive in more on the book. Cleaning up your mental mess. Five simple scientifically proven steps to reduce anxiety, stress, and toxic thinking. So make sure you guys get the book if you haven't got it yet. This is going to be really powerful and helpful for you, for a family member, for a friend. So make sure to check this out. Really inspired by this. Um.

• 1:34:33Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  Thank you.

• 1:34:34Lewis Howes?

  You've been doing this work for what, three decades now?

• 1:34:36Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  Nearly four, it's thirty eight years now.

• 1:34:39Lewis Howes?

  So almost four decades, you've been doing this work and research and as a practitioner as well, applying this in the real world. What is the biggest challenge you still face today? Even knowing all of these practices and awareness around the brain, the mind, thoughts, thinking, memory, all this stuff. What's the challenge you still face as a human being with four decades of experience?

• 1:35:03Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  The challenge that personally, it's I wish I could manage it 24/7. And that's my goal because I know it works. And when it does, and I get totally frustrated when I think, why didn't I just use the neurocycle? It's got to the point in our family where if I would like, I actually went to my husband yesterday. I was really worked up about something. He said, well, why aren't you neurocycling? I want to like, don't say that to me. I don't feel like neurocycling. I want to, I just want to have a moan, you know, that kind of thing. But yeah, essentially it's true because I had to. I actually got myself back under control. So my greatest, the greatest hard, probably the hardest thing to do is to, to watch people in pain. When I know that they can, that there's a way out and I wish I could fix things. And that's probably what you can't do.

• 1:35:48Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  I mean, not probably, you can't do that. It's made me, my weakness is I now want to fix everything and everyone. And if I can't, I think, what have I done wrong? So I have to keep reminding myself all the time that I can't, I can only, you cannot fix anyone else, but you can only support them. So that's a very big challenge for me because I can see, hey, just do this, even to myself. Do that, you'll be fine afterwards. You'll, you'll, you'll get through this, you know, as that saying goes, this too shall pass when you know how to manage it. So that's, yeah, that's for me a big challenge. And in terms of globally, the narrative of mental health, we just have to stop telling people that they are brain damaged when they are just being normal humans. That's a huge challenge.

• 1:36:27Lewis Howes?

  This is awesome. I'm really glad we had this conversation.

• 1:36:30Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  Thank you, so am I.

• 1:36:31Lewis Howes?

  This question I ask everyone towards the end is called the three truths question. So I'd like you to imagine it's your last day on earth, many years away from now. And you get to accomplish all your goals and dreams. They all, they all come true, but eventually you gotta, you gotta go to the next place. You gotta leave this earth. And you've got to take all of your work with you, all of your research, all of your books, your, you know, this interview, it's got to go with you to the next place.

• 1:36:55Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  This interview especially.

• 1:36:57Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, exactly. But you got, but you get to leave behind three lessons that you would share with the world. This is all we would have to remember you by are these three lessons. Or what I like to call three truths. What would you say you would share?

• 1:37:11Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  That the mind is something you can control. The mind is real, the mind is the source of everything. And that it's something that you can learn and develop. And that I would leave the system behind. I'd say, listen, learn, learn to manage your mind. Use the neuro cycle, develop it further, whatever. But that's what I would, and the fact that your mind is real, that your mind is always with you. If you don't get your mind under control, everything else is just wound addressing.

• 1:37:36Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:37:37Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  We have to, that would really, so that would be sort of the main thing. And then the how to, I would definitely leave behind. Do this and develop it, grow it further, make it even better than what I've done. But this is what I can offer humanity is this has hard managed mind. And then the, then the philosophy, the third thing I'd leave behind is three words, three, three lessons. That psychologist William James is quoted often as saying, and that's three things in life are so important. Be kind, be kind, be kind.

• 1:38:04Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 1:38:05Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  To yourself, to others. And those three things, I think we'd be pretty well equipped to have a decent, peaceful, realistic existence.

• 1:38:13Lewis Howes?

  Absolutely. Those are beautiful truths, Caroline. I appreciate that. I want to acknowledge you Caroline for a moment because this has been very awe inspiring and eye opening. And I acknowledge you for the nearly four decades of constant curiosity, constant

• 1:38:29Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  Thank you.

• 1:38:30Lewis Howes?

  research and dedication to understanding the mind and the complicated nuances of the minds, of the mind body connection, of the mind brain connection, of quantum physics and all the things surrounding the energetic field of the mind. Uh, it's something I've been fascinated with my entire life, uh, as a young child, uh, growing up, learning about it. But it's something that I've been more curious about. But for you to make this your life's mission and study it and then make it simp, try to simplify the complex in a way so human beings can understand their minds. I really acknowledge you for doing the work, showing up consistently and providing, and having the passion you have to, to share this information. I think it's really inspiring.

• 1:39:15Lewis Howes?

  So I acknowledge you for, for all of it.

• 1:39:18Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  Thank you. That's so kind of you. Appreciate that.

• 1:39:21Lewis Howes?

  I want to remind everyone again, get the book Cleaning Up Your Mental Mess. Make sure you check it out right now. You are on social media. You do a lot on Instagram, I see, Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, Dr. Caroline Leaf on pretty much everywhere. And also your website is just DrCarolineLeaf.com.

• 1:39:39Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  Or just DrLeaf.com.

• 1:39:41Lewis Howes?

  DrLeaf.com. It's got all your information, your books, all the different stuff over there. So make sure people check out DrLeaf.com. This is the final question. Yeah, go ahead.

• 1:39:51Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  I have, I have a podcast as well called Cleaning Up Your Mental Mess. So that's

• 1:39:54Lewis Howes?

  There you go. Check out the podcast.

• 1:39:56Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  And then, and you, I want to interview you as soon as possible on there as well. I'd love to have your story. It'd be fantastic.

• 1:40:02Lewis Howes?

  For sure. Would love to. Yeah, I'm always down to do the work. If anyone wants to analyze me and do sessions with me, I'm in. So.

• 1:40:09Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  Oh, you have such a wonderful story.

• 1:40:11Lewis Howes?

  I appreciate it. Thank you. My, my final question is, what's your definition of greatness?

• 1:40:17Dr. Caroline Leaf?

  You, I think you know my answer to that. My definition of greatness is when you start getting to grips with understanding how you think, feel, and choose, then you start, you start seeing greatness because there's something you can do that no one else can do. And when you recognize that there's something that you can do that no one else can do, which, which is your mind, it's what you're doing, it's your perception, then there's no envy or jealousy, there's no desire to be like someone else. Competition goes because you can't be competed with because no one can do what you can do. So everyone is in that same boat. So suddenly now if you move from competition to enhancement, and that is key. So when we enhance each other, that's when we really grows humanity.

• 1:40:56Lewis Howes?

  I hope you enjoyed today's episode and it inspired you on your journey towards greatness. Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a full rundown of today's episode with all the important links. And if you want weekly exclusive bonus episodes with me personally, as well as ad free listening, then make sure to subscribe to our Greatness Plus channel exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Share this with a friend on social media and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts as well. Let me know what you enjoyed about this episode in that review. I really love hearing feedback from you and it helps us figure out how. We can support and serve you moving forward. And I want to remind you, if no one has told you lately, that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter.

• 1:41:40Lewis Howes?

  And now it's time to go out there and do something great.