Caller: “Is It Time to Leave My Wife?”

📋 Weekly Rundown (your weekly marriage check-in) On today’s episode, we hear about: A man who feels invisible in his marriage A son wondering if he should reconnect with his dying dad A man struggling to be more approachable Next Steps: 🔥⁠ Microhabits for a Better Marriage. Download the Together app. ❤️ Get away with your spouse today! 📞 Ask John a question! Call 844-693-3291 or send us a message. 📚 Building a Non-Anxious Life 📝 Anxiety Test 📚 Own Your Past, Change Your Future ❓ Questions for Humans Conversation Cards 💭 John's Free Guided Meditation 🤘🏼 The Dr. John Delony Show Merch Connect With Our Sponsors: Get 10% off your first month of BetterHelp. Go to Capstone Wellness to learn more. Get up to 20% off with code DELONY at Cozy Earth. Get 20% off when you join DeleteMe. Visit Hallow for a 90-day free trial. Visit Helix Sleep for special offers! Go to Joi + Blokes and get 50% off labs and 20% off products. Working knives for working people—Go to Montana Knife Company to see what’s available now! Explore Poncho Outdoors! Get 25% off your order at Thorne. Visit Zander Insurance or call 1-800-356-4282 for your free instant quote today. Explore More From Ramsey Network: 🎙️ The Ramsey Show 💸 The Ramsey Show Highlights 🍸 Smart Money Happy Hour 💰 George Kamel 📈 EntreLeadership Ramsey Solutions Privacy Policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:05Dr. John Delony?

  Brought to you by my friends at Churchill Mortgage. If you're looking to buy or refinance, check them out. I've used Churchill and they are great. Go to churchillmortgage.com.

• 0:16Speaker 01

  I've tried reading the books, taking her to marriage counseling, dating her more. And then now, two years later, here we are in counseling again. And this is now the third time that I've asked for a divorce, but I can't seem to get myself to fall through with it.

• 0:39Dr. John Delony?

  What's going on? What's going on? This is John with the Dr. John Deloney Show. So glad you're with us.

• 0:47Dr. John Delony?

  Here's my goal, man. My goal is for you to pull up a seat. Whatever's going on in your life and in the lives of those around you, whether it's your mental and emotional health, your relationships, your marriages, your relationship with your kids.

• 1:01Dr. John Delony?

  I think deeply connected relationships start the healing process that all of us need individually and collectively. And so pull up a seat and we'll figure out what's the next right move. I'd love to have you on the show. If you want to be on, click the link in the show notes and we'll get you in. Let's roll out to Los Angeles, California and talk to Tyler. Hey Tyler, what's up, man?

• 1:22Speaker 01

  Hey, how's it going?

• 1:23Dr. John Delony?

  I'm good, brother. How are you, man?

• 1:24Speaker 01

  I'm all right. I'm nervous, but I'm all right.

• 1:26Dr. John Delony?

  Nah, you're good. I'm glad you're here, man. What's up?

• 1:29Speaker 01

  I'm just really trying to figure out if it's time to really end my marriage. Been married about seven years together for 10. This is now the third time that I've asked for a divorce. And I just feel like it's time to leave, but I can't seem to get myself to fall through with it.

• 1:54Dr. John Delony?

  Well, dude, thanks for calling, man.

• 1:58Dr. John Delony?

  As you're sitting down, the, the, the, think back to the first, the second, and now the third time you've told your spouse you want a divorce.

• 2:08Dr. John Delony?

  What precipitated that? What was the thing that happened or the context around you saying, I'm out?

• 2:15Speaker 01

  Um, so I was a foster kid growing up. And so I know I've struggled with some abandonment issues. And so I think honestly, that we kind of got together when I had low self-esteem, low self-worth, and I took any love I could get. And what I realized after my son was born, which was about four or five, four and a half years ago, that I realized that unconditional love does exist. And that was kind of the first time where I was like, I'm tired of putting up with just being belittled, treated poorly, et cetera. And then, so that was the first time. And then the second time was two years after he was born. And I just was like, hey, like, I know you're struggling,

• 2:59Speaker 01

  but I'm going to give you time. I'll give you a year to figure it out. You know, it seemed like it got better, but I think I was just imagining it. And then the third time was about three months ago.

• 3:13Speaker 01

  And I'd been, I'd been communicating with her over the years and talking to her and telling her like, I feel miserable, I feel unhappy. And I've tried reading the books, taking her to marriage counseling, dating her more, you know, I stole the line that you used, how can I love you today? You know, I did everything I could think of. And, you know, when you're sitting in marriage counseling two years ago and the counselor's like, hey, like, you have to work on yourself. And she was telling my wife, because my wife struggles with being vulnerable with me, with being honest with me and that kind of stuff. And then now, two years later, here we are in counseling again. And kind of the same thing's happening.

• 3:56Speaker 01

  And, you know, she started, the, the reason I didn't follow through with it the third time was she showed a lot of remorse. And so I was like, okay, maybe this time's different. But we've been doing that song and dance for years now. And I've just been really struggling to kind of follow through with it. And it's like, I want to have hope, but I keep getting reminded of all the hurt she's put me through over the years.

• 4:24Dr. John Delony?

  So give, give me some examples of, and be as specific as you can. What are some things she's done to you?

• 4:34Speaker 01

  So I just feel like I was...

• 4:37Dr. John Delony?

  Do me a favor, do me a favor. Back out of, you've mentioned the word feeling a lot, and that's important, but I want you to be specific with the things that have happened. So give me some examples of ways she's, she's, she has made, I'm trying to, I'm trying to use your words carefully and not, not pull them out of context, but how has she made you less than yourself?

• 5:03Speaker 01

  I told her that I felt invisible, that I was hurting.

• 5:07Dr. John Delony?

  Okay, what does that, what does that mean? What does that mean? You feel invisible? What does that mean? She walks by you and spends all the time on her phone? She ignores you? You say, hey, I would love to go on a date. And she goes, you're stupid. Like, what do you mean, you feel invisible?

• 5:20Speaker 01

  I would ask to see if she wanted to hang out in the evenings. And she would not be interested. And she would find her, find a way to go to bed. But then the nights that I would go to bed early, she would stay up late. She was constantly going to sleep. Anytime that we could spend together, she would go to the stores. She would just find all these reasonings to not spend time with me.

• 5:42Dr. John Delony?

  Okay.

• 5:43Speaker 01

  And when I asked her, hey, do you not like hanging out with me? And she just said, no, it feels like a lecture or a argument every time.

• 5:52Dr. John Delony?

  Okay.

• 5:54Dr. John Delony?

  So pause there. Is there truth to that?

• 5:58Speaker 01

  There is some truth to that.

• 5:59Dr. John Delony?

  Okay.

• 6:02Dr. John Delony?

  So if every time y'all sit, y'all get together, it feels like a lecture, it feels like you're trying to dig, it feels like you're trying to grab on to, as a guy who said, you know, it's like struggles with abandonment issues, which I do too, like, is every, every interaction, do you still like me? Do you still like me? Do you still like me? Are you searching for something external that might need to be filled internally? Is that, you get what I'm saying?

• 6:28Speaker 01

  I do, I do. And I don't think it's that. I tend to be more, I'm, I'm super mindful of how she's feeling. And so when we would spend time together, I just try to keep it lighthearted, show her funny videos, or just ask her about her day, stuff like that. Just try to have conversations. And she tended to not reciprocate. And I had expressed those concerns over the years and just kind of told her, I feel like, I mean, and you said, say what's my feel. But I was just like, I feel like you're not wanting to be around me. And I've always kind of felt that I was just convenient for her. And...

• 7:10Dr. John Delony?

  What did she say when you bring that up?

• 7:14Speaker 01

  Um, it was more, I would tell her how I was feeling and she would just say like, I know, and then kind of leave it at that. And so even when I brought up the divorce this last time, she told me that she thought she had more time and that she thought I would figure it out myself. So I haven't really had a partner. I've had more, feel like somebody that I'm supposed to manage. Because when I do bring up concerns and things that bother me, I'm met with anger and hostility. And she has this way of flipping the conversation to where I'm now defending myself for something that upset her, that she never brought up. And I have no problem discussing, like, hey, this bothered you?

• 7:58Speaker 01

  Let me help you, like, let me figure this out. Like, let's figure this out together. Like, that's what we're supposed to be. But then now I'm more spending time trying to work through whatever it is bothering her. And my concerns get ignored, brushed aside. Because her mindset is very much a void and hopefully it goes away.

• 8:19Dr. John Delony?

  Okay.

• 8:23Dr. John Delony?

  Tell me what divorcing her will get you.

• 8:29Speaker 01

  Honestly, I feel like it would just give me like a breath, like I'd be able to breathe. Like, I feel suffocated. I, when she's anxious, the house is very like on edge. It's like you can't, like, I feel like I can't speak because anything can set her off. She struggles with anger. You know, she goes zero to 100. Every issue is, is blown out of proportion. And simple things are becoming issues. She gets overwhelmed. She has a lot of anxiety. And I've tried helping her throughout the years with that, you know, either by just offering support or just giving her space to work on it. You know, I've tried many different things.

• 9:11Speaker 01

  And it just feels like no matter what I do, anything can set her off. And I'm just tired of feeling anxious at home. And I'm worried that it's going to affect my son. I imagine it already is. I've noticed that the nights that her and I have an argument, we do our best to not do it in front of him. But a lot of the times, it can be up in front of him.

• 9:33Speaker 01

  He ends up like wetting the bed at night.

• 9:37Speaker 01

  And just, I don't want him to be affected by that. And I feel like I'm failing him as a father right now because I can see how bad these things can be sometimes.

• 9:48Dr. John Delony?

  Give me an example of how bad things get.

• 9:52Dr. John Delony?

  Um, I can't, I can't, I can't, let me be honest with you. I can't tell if you are minimizing what's actually going on in your home? Are y'all screaming and yelling? And is your wife smashing stuff? Or...

• 10:06Speaker 01

  Uh, yelling from time to time. Um, there was a, the other day, we were supposed to go to a kid's birthday party and she got upset because I had told her the wrong time. It was at 12:30, not 12, like I had told her. So as we were leaving, she was upset. And I tried to set a boundary of like, hey, if you're going to be rude to me, I'm not going to go. And so she just said, okay, well then give me the keys. And I was like, well, this is my car. And she gets out of the car, comes around, and I sat down in the driver's seat because I didn't want her to take my car. And she sat on top of me and then she elbowed me in the chest and my son's in the backseat in the, in the, in the car seat.

• 10:44Dr. John Delony?

  And so I'm not giving her a pass on this. If she was on my phone, I mean, if she was on the phone with me, I would tell her. It's a very childish way to handle that. Okay.

• 10:54Dr. John Delony?

  How often does she hit you?

• 10:57Speaker 01

  Uh, this was the first time in three years.

• 11:02Dr. John Delony?

  Okay.

• 11:02Speaker 01

  And she's hit me a few times back when we lived in our apartment early on in the relationship. She spit in my face a couple of times.

• 11:09Dr. John Delony?

  Okay.

• 11:09Speaker 01

  But it's been a few years since.

• 11:14Dr. John Delony?

  None of that is okay.

• 11:16Speaker 01

  I know. And one of the things that I told myself was that if she ever hit me again, and then she hit me again, and just been tearing me up and tied because I said I was gonna go, and I'm like stuck because I, I don't know why, I just can't care about myself enough to just be like, hey, I'm over this. Because I don't think she's a bad person.

• 11:35Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah, I think it's bigger than caring for yourself. I think that's, I think honoring yourself with dignity and respect is important. And also, you love this woman.

• 11:45Speaker 01

  I do.

• 11:46Dr. John Delony?

  And you treat her with dignity and respect, even when she makes it really hard. And you'll have a child together.

• 11:53Speaker 01

  We do.

• 11:53Dr. John Delony?

  And I don't know if you've sat there with your eyes closed and just thought about that breath you take in your home, in your apartment where you'll be living. You can walk home and drop your stuff and know what you're gonna get, and she won't be there, and your son won't be there.

• 12:12Dr. John Delony?

  And after a few days or a few weeks, it'll get real quiet, right? So you, it's, it's, it's all of it all at the same time. When, when both of the different therapists have looked at her and said, she's gotta do some work on her, right? Because a marriage is two people inside of the secret world that y'all create together. But two people have to do their own work outside of that secret world so they can come in this thing together, right? And you, you cannot, you can make a context where healing is possible, but you can't make her less anxious. She has to decide, I'm gonna go work on that. You can't make her less angry. Of course, you can set her off, but because you know her, you know the buttons to push. That's what marriage is, right? You, my buddy Jefferson Fisher said, like, you give each

• 12:56Dr. John Delony?

  other the nuclear codes, you just hope the other person doesn't set them off, right? Like, but you can't make her go deal with her anger. She has to look at herself and say, I'm worth quelling this nuclear reactor in the middle of my chest, and I love this man, and I love my marriage, and I love myself, and I love my son enough to do this. But you can't make her do that stuff. And so if two, if two therapists have said, hey, you've gotta go do some work on yourself, and she's just said, no, or I'm gonna white knuckle it, right? I'm just gonna grab on tight and hang on. Um, yeah, you found yourself between a rock and a hard place here.

• 13:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:32Dr. John Delony?

  I hear a man that doesn't want to get divorced, but I hear a man who wants to stop hurting, too.

• 13:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:40Speaker 01

  And that's where I'm stuck. It's like, two years ago, she was told this, and two, two years, she didn't really take it serious. And then it wasn't until I finally just sat her down and was like, I want a divorce.

• 13:53Dr. John Delony?

  Okay.

• 13:54Speaker 01

  That she was like, I'm gonna change, I'm gonna do it. And, and slowly, a lot of the things she's been doing have kind of fallen away.

• 14:01Dr. John Delony?

  Sure.

• 14:01Speaker 01

  And we're seeing the couples counselor, and she's giving us homework every week, and my wife's not doing the homework. And I could be the one that reminds her and whatnot. At the same time, I'm like, I was done. Like, I wanted you to fight for me.

• 14:15Dr. John Delony?

  There you go.

• 14:19Speaker 01

  Just wasn't big enough.

• 14:21Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 14:24Speaker 01

  It feels like I'm not. And it feels like,

• 14:28Speaker 01

  I feel like I've been fighting this fight for so long, and I'm tired.

• 14:32Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 14:36Dr. John Delony?

  Are you still seeing the counselor?

• 14:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, we have an appointment tonight.

• 14:41Dr. John Delony?

  Okay. If you're done, if you're out, and by the way, the third time you throw, the first time you throw divorce on the table and you don't pull the trigger on it, it becomes, it increasingly becomes an empty threat, right? And so if you're actually done, done,

• 15:00Dr. John Delony?

  I'm out, there is no redemption here, there's no path back. Now I want us to work on being adults in co-parent, co-parenting situation with our son.

• 15:12Dr. John Delony?

  Um, which by the way, if you have a mother of your child who has violent rages,

• 15:20Dr. John Delony?

  then that's not something you can just shake hands and walk away with, because your son's gonna become the beneficiary of that kind of madness, too.

• 15:27Speaker 01

  I know.

• 15:28Dr. John Delony?

  Right? And so it may be looking at her and saying, I want full custody,

• 15:34Dr. John Delony?

  because I don't trust your anger, and I don't trust your violent outrages right now.

• 15:39Dr. John Delony?

  Which is a hard conversation, but that's the reality you may find yourself in. If I'm overstating it, then, then that's okay, right? If there is a path back, what has to happen today is, here's what must be true over the next three weeks. You will see a mental health professional to work on yourself, and you will do these homework assignments, you will be in your own therapy, you'll begin working on your anger, and you'll be in an anger management program. You get to, you say, here's the path to walk.

• 16:13Dr. John Delony?

  And if you don't, like, so I'm saying, so it's not a amorphous, you need to work on yourself, or you just need to do better around here, or I need you to meet my needs, that kind of stuff, which is really kind of Instagrammy, um, kind of amorphousy, right? This is you saying, here is the only clear path you can walk, if you want to keep this marriage.

• 16:38Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 16:39Dr. John Delony?

  And you get to decide what you're willing to tolerate, and what you're not willing to tolerate.

• 16:48Dr. John Delony?

  And I want to be honest with you, both paths ahead of you are very hard.

• 16:57Dr. John Delony?

  Divorce, while it will feel like a relief, will be very hard.

• 17:03Dr. John Delony?

  Emotionally, like, financially, like, with parenting, like, it will be hard. And staying in this relationship,

• 17:14Dr. John Delony?

  and trying to be some sort of sturdy anchor while your partner chooses to heal, if that's the choice she makes, that will be hard, too. What I want to leave this call with is this. I want you to be super clear about what you're asking for of your wife tonight.

• 17:33Dr. John Delony?

  In couples counseling, I want you to write it in the form of a letter. And when y'all sit down,

• 17:40Dr. John Delony?

  I want you to look at the therapist and say, I've written a letter that I'd like to read to my wife.

• 17:46Dr. John Delony?

  And your therapist should let you go first.

• 17:50Dr. John Delony?

  And if your wife has not done her homework for the second, third, fourth, or however many weeks in a row, put that into the letter.

• 18:01Dr. John Delony?

  Or if tonight is the night, you say, this is final, and it's gonna be painful, but I'm out of this marriage, you can't hit me anymore, especially not in front of our kid, violence is where I draw the line,

• 18:15Dr. John Delony?

  then have the courage to write that out, and you be very clear. You show up as the person you want to be.

• 18:23Dr. John Delony?

  I'm gonna be a person who tells the truth, I'm gonna be a person who, um, feels the pain of the situation, and walks it well, even though it's hard. And then we're gonna talk about next steps for co-parenting, and how we're gonna, um, approach separating after a decade together. All of that will be painful.

• 18:46Dr. John Delony?

  But it sounds like you've been doing a lot of right, next, hard things, trying to love somebody well. And it sounds like, man, I have a nagging suspicion, she loves you too, man, she's trying, but she won't look in the mirror and say, I'm worth feeling and doing life different, feeling better and doing life differently. And you can't make her do that, which is the heartbreak of loving somebody.

• 19:10Dr. John Delony?

  Only she can decide, I'm gonna deal with this anger, I'm gonna deal with this rage, I'm gonna be honest with you about what I like and don't like about

• 19:18Dr. John Delony?

  how we interact, or our friendship, or whatever.

• 19:22Dr. John Delony?

  Clear as kind, my brother.

• 19:25Dr. John Delony?

  You're a good man. Thanks for the call. I, I would, man, it'd be an honor if you called back and let me know how this conversation goes tonight. And if she wants to call and talk on the phone, both of y'all want to call, um, I'd love to have you both. Um, but we may be past that.

• 19:39Dr. John Delony?

  The last thing I'll, I'll say to you before I let you go, let's don't threaten divorce anymore.

• 19:45Dr. John Delony?

  If the marriage is over, then have the courage to say the marriage is over. Don't use it as a, as a, as a, as a hook, right? As a

• 19:54Dr. John Delony?

  a, a, a bigger, a bigger threat to get her to do something that she doesn't know how to do, or doesn't want to do.

• 20:01Dr. John Delony?

  Give me a call back after this evening. Thanks for calling, my man. We come back, a man asks, should he continue to cut off his terminally ill abusive father?

• 20:12Dr. John Delony?

  Or should he reconnect? We'll be right back.

• 20:15Dr. John Delony?

  This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. Alright, so my friends at BetterHelp just released their annual State of Stigma Report. It's full of all sorts of data about mental and emotional health, and it also looks at why people avoid getting help for their mental health. Here's a data point that stood out to me. More than three out of four Americans reported anxiety or depression symptoms in the last two weeks. If that's you, and you're carrying stress, anxiety, or depression, or symptoms of those things, just talking with someone can help more than you realize. I want you to reach out to BetterHelp. BetterHelp is an online therapy platform that matches you with one of their 30,000-plus licensed therapists based on your goals and your preferences. It's easy and it's super convenient.

• 21:00Dr. John Delony?

  You can message your therapist and schedule sessions right in the platform. And if the first therapist you're matched with isn't the right fit, you can switch at any time for no extra cost. Don't let stigma stand in the way of support. If you're struggling, reach out. Visit betterhelp.com/deloney and get 10% off. That's betterhelp, H E L P dot com slash deloney.

• 21:24Dr. John Delony?

  Alright, let's go out to Des Moines, Iowa and talk to Aiden. Hey, Aiden, what's up, man?

• 21:29Speaker 02

  Hey, Dr. John, what's good?

• 21:30Dr. John Delony?

  What's up, man?

• 21:32Speaker 02

  Um, so my question is, uh, should I, should I reestablish contact with my terminally ill father?

• 21:44Dr. John Delony?

  Hmm. Tell me about it, man.

• 21:48Speaker 02

  Uh, yeah, man, I don't, I don't really know where to start. So, uh, he was very abusive when I grew up and

• 21:57Dr. John Delony?

  What does that, what does that mean? What does that mean?

• 21:59Speaker 02

  Oh, I mean, I can go into specifics if you want. I'm not shy about it.

• 22:03Dr. John Delony?

  No, uh, give me, um, as much as you feel comfortable with, and give me a, give me a overarching context. I don't need blood and guts, but, um, was he physically abusive, sexually abusive, emotionally? Like, tell me about what, when you say he was abusive, what does that mean?

• 22:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, dude, no problem. Uh, so physically abusive.

• 22:22Dr. John Delony?

  Okay.

• 22:22Speaker 02

  Um, also, uh, very emotionally abusive. Um, kind of, once my parents divorced and once that happened, uh, the physical abuse stopped, but, uh, there was a whole like, oh, I'm gonna get my kids on my side and try to get them to, to not love their mom anymore, you know, like, I feel like that sort of thing happens to a lot of, uh, a lot of kids who have divorced parents, but, yeah, so that happened and also, uh, just a lot of the, a lot of the ideas that he tried to teach us, I think, me and my siblings, I think really, uh, were just abusive. I don't know if you've seen like shiny happy people,

• 23:07Speaker 02

  but he got us involved with that when we were really young and a lot of that was really hard to unlearn.

• 23:13Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah. Um, tell me about the physical abuse. Was he an avid spanker or would he hit you in the mouth? Like what? Tell me about physical abuse.

• 23:23Speaker 02

  Uh, definitely a lot of spanking, um, that would get like unnecessarily brutal.

• 23:29Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 23:29Speaker 02

  Uh, um, I, one of my earliest memories was, uh, being spanked and then, I think I was maybe like four years old and being told to like recite a Bible verse. And when I wouldn't get it right, I would get spanked again and just kind of rinse and repeat and that went on for a long time. Um, so, uh, yeah, like stuff like that. And there was more than that, too. I, uh,

• 24:02Speaker 02

  yeah, I won't speak for my siblings, um, like stuff different than spanking happened to them. For me, it was mostly like really brutal, uh, yeah, hitting with like various objects.

• 24:19Dr. John Delony?

  So can I just tell you, man, I'm sorry that happened?

• 24:22Speaker 02

  It's alright, thanks, man.

• 24:23Dr. John Delony?

  It's not, it's not. There's nothing about that.

• 24:27Speaker 02

  For sure. Yeah, it's not alright, but you know what I mean? Like, uh, yeah, thank you.

• 24:35Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah, and the co-mingling of violence and scripture and your parents divorce.

• 24:42Dr. John Delony?

  That's a mess inside your chest, huh?

• 24:46Speaker 02

  Thankfully, I've done a lot of work to, to like deal with it and I think I've come to a pretty like healthy place in my life about it. Um, like I, I think I've come to a place where, uh, like acceptance of a lot of things that have happened, it comes a lot more easily to me now. Um, but

• 25:09Dr. John Delony?

  Do you have your own kids now?

• 25:11Speaker 02

  Sorry, what's up?

• 25:12Dr. John Delony?

  Do you have your own kids now?

• 25:13Speaker 02

  I don't.

• 25:14Dr. John Delony?

  Okay.

• 25:16Dr. John Delony?

  Are you married now?

• 25:18Speaker 02

  I am married.

• 25:18Dr. John Delony?

  Okay. How's that going? How are you doing life differently?

• 25:23Speaker 02

  Dude, I mean, uh, I, I feel like this might sound spiteful, but because of the abusive household I grew up in, my life philosophy has been to do the exact opposite of everything my dad did. And it's worked out really well.

• 25:41Dr. John Delony?

  That's not spiteful at all. That's just you using the roadmaps in front of you. Like, hey, I went down that road and it was awful. I'm good on that one. That's why, that's wisdom, brother. That's not, that's not spiteful. If you do, if you're like, I'm gonna do something wife, uh, nice to my wife tonight, and that'll show you, dad. That's spiteful. That's dumb. That's using your wife to try to hit your dad, right?

• 26:04Speaker 02

  Oh, no, no, that, that's not what I meant at all.

• 26:06Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah, otherwise you're just being wise. That's, that's awesome.

• 26:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, I, I hear you. Um, yeah, and my wife is amazing. She's my entire world, dude. Um, and like, I can't imagine being abusive to my wife. Like those, the actions he took just do not make sense intrinsically to me. Like, uh, I just by living authentically, I, I'm really proud of the life I've built for myself. Um,

• 26:33Dr. John Delony?

  Excellent. I'm proud of you too, man. I'm proud. This is how, this is how family trees change, my man.

• 26:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, I, I think so too. I, I'm really proud that I, I feel like I've ended that cycle like for my part in my family line.

• 26:49Dr. John Delony?

  Dude, I'm proud of you. So, so what's happened recently that precipitated this call?

• 26:54Speaker 02

  So, uh, when I cut my dad off, I should probably tell you how that happened. It wasn't just a like, I just decided to stop talking to him. Uh, I, we had a sit down, man. I, I invited him to dinner and I just laid it out clear as day. I was like, hey, like these things happened. And if you want a relationship with me, like I need some level of acknowledgement, of like acknowledgement that it did happen. And I just, I like, I need an apology for starters. And that was too hard. So, uh,

• 27:31Dr. John Delony?

  Hold on, hold on. What do you mean that's too hard? He looked at you and said no?

• 27:36Speaker 02

  I mean, I'm not, but basically, uh, first there was a lot of denial, like, oh, that didn't happen. And then there was blaming, like, like four-year-old me was the issue, you know? Uh, which is all ridiculous, you know? So it, the conversation just did not go well. I gave him a second meetup. I was like, okay, stop, you need to think about this. Let's meet up again later once you've had time and resume. Second meetup went just as bad. So that was it. And since then, I've gotten married at a house now, so like, uh, and I've left him out of it. Also, like, not just to protect my peace, but

• 28:22Speaker 02

  he's not a safe person around women. Like, I don't want him around my wife if he hasn't changed. Um, so yeah, I mean, that's where we're at and

• 28:33Dr. John Delony?

  Just so you know, just so you know, that, that conversation, um,

• 28:41Dr. John Delony?

  I know of personally, and also know more broadly, that those type of conversations have also been incredibly healing.

• 28:52Speaker 02

  I think so too, man. I think, I think I have a lot more peace about it because I did that.

• 28:57Dr. John Delony?

  No, no, I, yeah, you handled it in a right immature way. And, um, what I, what I say about healing is, like, I know of situations where dads who did not handle childhood well, sob and weep and say, I'm so sorry. Do you forgive me?

• 29:20Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 29:21Dr. John Delony?

  They, they were one way 25 or 30 years ago, and they're very different now.

• 29:28Dr. John Delony?

  And it's, it's an earned new relationship and new trust that happens over time. Right? But that's not what you got.

• 29:40Dr. John Delony?

  And

• 29:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, unfortunately.

• 29:41Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah, I mean, it breaks my heart that that's not what you got, but it also, like you said, it allows you to look in the mirror and say, I showed up as the man I want to be, which is a man of forgiveness, a man of boundaries, a man of who's seeking relationship, but here's, here's what needs to happen for this relationship. Um, I wanted to be that guy, and that's the guy you were.

• 30:05Dr. John Delony?

  And you're also a guy that keeps his word to himself, which is honorable.

• 30:09Speaker 02

  Thanks, dude.

• 30:11Dr. John Delony?

  All right. So your dad is, he's terminally ill. Is he dying?

• 30:16Speaker 02

  Uh, I don't know how much longer he has left, man. Uh, so the information that I got is that he has been diagnosed with multiple forms of cancer, and they're not trying to remove it. And he's had pneumonia twice in the last six months.

• 30:32Dr. John Delony?

  Okay.

• 30:32Speaker 02

  So, I mean, that doesn't sound good to me.

• 30:34Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah, yeah. I mean, that could mean any range of things, but that, those are some data points that say that the end is near. Yeah.

• 30:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, for real. And he's never been very health conscious either.

• 30:45Dr. John Delony?

  Sure.

• 30:46Speaker 02

  Like, very sedentary.

• 30:48Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 30:49Speaker 02

  Uh, so, yeah, I mean, I, yeah, I think the end is near, man.

• 30:52Dr. John Delony?

  So what are you gonna do?

• 30:55Speaker 02

  So, uh, when I first got that info, it was, uh, I'm sure you've seen people do this, but it was given to me in a way that made me feel like my dad was triangulating, like, using a family member to try to contact me and, like, make me feel like I should go see him. Like, I, I mean, I've cut him off on everything. I, he doesn't know where I live.

• 31:23Dr. John Delony?

  Sure.

• 31:23Speaker 02

  He doesn't have my phone number. So, uh, I mean,

• 31:27Dr. John Delony?

  But a family member got in touch with you and said, hey, dad wanted me to let you know that he's dying of cancer?

• 31:32Speaker 02

  Uh, more or less, yeah.

• 31:34Dr. John Delony?

  All right. One, one thing, as you move forward, and you continue, and, and by the way, this is gonna sound nuts.

• 31:42Speaker 02

  Hit me.

• 31:43Dr. John Delony?

  Not everybody, but the vast majority of folks, if your father was to pass away today, it'll be devastating all over again.

• 31:53Dr. John Delony?

  There, there's a fantasy that you'll go, ah, and it won't be like that, generally speaking. Sometimes it is.

• 32:01Speaker 02

  Weirdly, I don't really expect that I'll have any sort of relief.

• 32:05Dr. John Delony?

  Okay. But, but it catches people off guard, and they start filling in stories as to, I should have, I, oh, my gosh, I, just expect it will be hard, because none of this is the way it should be.

• 32:17Speaker 02

  For sure.

• 32:18Dr. John Delony?

  Dads, all dads, all moms, all parents do things when they're doing the, either the best they can, or they're following bad advice, or whatever's happening when their kid, when they have kids, period. Not to the extent of what you experienced, but it always, in my opinion, is the adult's responsibility to circle back and make things right and whole with their kids. And that doesn't happen for you. That's the way it should happen.

• 32:43Speaker 02

  And if I had kids, and I was in a position where my kid, like, cut me off after having that sort of conversation, like, I would, like, I feel like I would stop at nothing.

• 32:53Dr. John Delony?

  Exactly. I mean,

• 32:54Speaker 02

  Families should mean that much to try to change, like, try to address it, you know?

• 32:59Dr. John Delony?

  I agree. And that's, that's not the world we live in right now. And it's, it breaks my heart. But here we are, right? Um, so, bring me to right now. What are you gonna do? You gonna call him? You gonna write him a letter? You gonna just let him go in peace? What are you, what are you gonna do? All you can control here is you.

• 33:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 33:15Dr. John Delony?

  How do you show up in this situation as the man you want to be?

• 33:20Speaker 02

  I've thought a lot about it. I've talked to my wife and other family members a lot about it. And I think as more time goes on, I'm coming to, what's the point? Like, I just, I'm not sure that it would benefit anybody.

• 33:37Dr. John Delony?

  Okay.

• 33:38Speaker 02

  To try to, like, reestablish any sort of connection. I don't trust that on his, before he goes to his deathbed, he's suddenly going to make huge changes.

• 33:48Dr. John Delony?

  Sure.

• 33:49Speaker 02

  Especially given, like, how I've been told about this, you know? Like, I just, I don't think it's gonna be anything different. I don't see

• 33:57Dr. John Delony?

  So here's what I want, here's what I want to ask you to do, okay?

• 34:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, what's up?

• 34:01Dr. John Delony?

  I want you to, in no way, not to your wife, not to family members, not to friends, I don't want you to outsource this decision to anybody.

• 34:11Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 34:12Dr. John Delony?

  I want you to take full ownership of what you do next.

• 34:17Dr. John Delony?

  And that way, if he passes away, and you are just hit with a tsunami of regret, you can look in the mirror and say, I messed this one up. Or, if you are hit with a tsunami of peace, you can say, I did the next right thing as I knew it.

• 34:39Dr. John Delony?

  But I want you to be able, I don't want you looking to your right and left and saying, well, why didn't you? And y'all should have, because that complicates this gnarly, messy grief. It's kind of been a haze over your whole life.

• 34:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, man.

• 34:54Dr. John Delony?

  Right? So take full ownership of, no, I've thought through it. The man I want to be is a man who, um, shows up with integrity. And I said my piece, and I put a period at the end of that sentence. And I'm a man who keeps my promises to myself. And I'm a man who doesn't engage in futile, like, whatever words you want to say about yourself, I'm gonna take full ownership of my identity. I'm gonna back it up with action. This is who I am. And I'm, I'm gonna take full ownership of that. And that way, you'll have to own both sides, or all, they won't be, it won't be, it won't be bifurcated in that way. It'll be messy. But I'm gonna own all of it. I'm gonna own it all. And I'll learn from whatever happens here.

• 35:38Speaker 02

  I really like that.

• 35:40Dr. John Delony?

  You're a good man, dude. You are working hard to make sure this never happens again. I'm proud of you, brother. And thanks for wrestling with hard things and not being reactive through your whole life. Um, I know it's exhausting, and it takes a lot of work, and you're putting that work in. This is how communities and families and homes will change.

• 36:00Dr. John Delony?

  Sorry this all happened to you, brother. We come back. A man asks how he can become more approachable. We'll be right back.

• 36:10Dr. John Delony?

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• 36:54Dr. John Delony?

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• 37:22Dr. John Delony?

  All right, St. Charles, Missouri. Let's talk to Nick. Hey, Nick, what's up?

• 37:27Speaker 03

  What's good, Dr. John. How are you?

• 37:28Dr. John Delony?

  I'm good, my man. What's going on with you?

• 37:32Speaker 03

  Uh, not much. I figured I'd call you. I had a question, uh, just about how I could be more approachable, uh, to people.

• 37:40Dr. John Delony?

  Dude, tell me about it. That's a, that's an interesting question. I love it. What's up?

• 37:45Speaker 03

  Oh, I just think for, uh, for a long time, I've had people make comments, um, that I just come off very standoffish, uh, like, I'm hard to read. I've had people, you know, tell me, you know, I never know what you're, what you're thinking, or I've had people tell me that I've got, I always look like I'm in a bad mood, like, my face is, you know, that, um, so, and I think it's affected just, uh, friendships, relationships, uh, just how I interact with people.

• 38:17Dr. John Delony?

  Hmm. When people tell you that, are you surprised? Or do you think, yeah, I could see that?

• 38:25Speaker 03

  Um, I think maybe the first time, I was probably taken off guard, but I think, you know, the more and more I, I've had people tell me that, I think it makes sense, like, I can kind of start looking back and putting, you know, connecting the dots and saying, yeah, I probably do come off like that.

• 38:51Dr. John Delony?

  Do people think you are scary? Do they think you're a jerk? Do they think you're just on the spectrum? Like, what, what, what's the thing beneath the thing, right?

• 39:01Speaker 03

  Yeah, um,

• 39:05Speaker 03

  I don't know. I hope they don't think I'm scary, uh,

• 39:08Dr. John Delony?

  Because, like, there's, there's people, like, um, like, I, let me put it this way. I've talked to women who were interested in a dating prospect. And I've heard them use the words, I don't know what he's thinking, I can't read him. And sometimes that's mysterious and sexy, and sometimes that's scary. It's off-putting. It's, I can't identify it.

• 39:36Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 39:36Dr. John Delony?

  You get what I'm saying? So when people say those things about you, underneath it,

• 39:44Dr. John Delony?

  what do you think they're feeling when they're in your presence?

• 39:54Speaker 03

  It's hard. I mean, I don't, I would probably lean more to the probably scary part. Honestly, I don't think it's how you described it as mysterious, or I don't know. I would probably, because it, I don't know, it might be some like, social awkwardness, or, you know, anxiety, social anxiety that goes along with it, but it, getting into, it's hard to have conversations and interact with people, I feel like.

• 40:26Dr. John Delony?

  Okay, so tell me about that. Do you have social anxiety? Do you get nervous around folks? Or are you just comfortable in your own skin? Because here's what I don't want to have happen. If you look in the mirror and you like you, and you like being around people, and like, I don't want you suddenly look in the mirror and thinking, oh, God, there's something wrong with me.

• 40:51Dr. John Delony?

  But if people that you trust in your environment are calling out a, a thing that deep down you know, and that you would like to be different.

• 41:06Dr. John Delony?

  So let me give you a good example. I'm an intense guy. I always have stuff going on in my head. I walk past people sometime without paying attention. Like, I'm always up in my head somewhere. And I'm also, I'm intense and I'm aloof. And so, two years ago, at my annual retreat, I came up with the word that I, my word of the year, and it surprised everyone who knew me. The word was delightful. I wanted, when I walked in the room, people to smile and to drop their shoulders. Oh, dude, John's here. Not buckle up, here he is, right? And so, I had to be intentional on what would have to, what would I have to do different with my presence?

• 41:50Dr. John Delony?

  So that people were warm and receptive when I walked in, and they didn't grab the desk and go, alright dude, here comes the roller coaster. And sometimes roller coasters are awesome and fun, and you don't know where they're gonna go. And sometimes, dude, it's just Tuesday morning at 8:00 AM, can we just get to this meeting? Right? And so, I, but it was an intentional thing, but I knew that. So where do you fall on that? Do you, do you just kind of love being you in your own skin? And maybe you need to find a job where there's not a ton of social interaction? Or, do you know, I've, dude, I've got some social anxiousness. I want to be more warm. I want to be more joyful. I want to laugh some more. And I struggle to get there.

• 42:30Speaker 03

  Yeah, I think, I think it's, because after a while, once I get, I guess I get more comfortable with people, it's different. I guess it's just the first initial couple of times of meeting people at work, it's different. I don't have that kind of issue, I guess. Maybe it's part of, just how long I've been with my, at my job. I know pretty much everybody.

• 42:58Speaker 03

  And I'm also, I work in the trade, so there's a different way of communicating, I guess, interacting with guys on the job. It's a lot more blunt, direct, and you can't always talk to people, or talk with people like that. But I think after, after a while, once I guess I get more comfortable or loosen up, it's different. I don't have that issue. I guess it's just the initial, so it prevents new, new relationships from your, I don't know if that makes sense.

• 43:29Dr. John Delony?

  Totally, I mean, it totally makes sense, completely. An interesting question you might ask some of the people that you trust?

• 43:39Dr. John Delony?

  Some coworkers you've been with for years, that you, like, you trust them?

• 43:44Dr. John Delony?

  Ask them, hey, did I come off, do I come off a standoffish around, or when y'all first met me?

• 43:51Speaker 03

  No, yeah, they've made the comment. I mean, they're part of the, some of the people that have made that comment.

• 43:56Dr. John Delony?

  Oh, that have brought it up? Okay, okay. So, so do you want this to be different? Because if, because if you do, it's a matter of choosing, especially for a short period of time, discomfort.

• 44:08Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 44:09Dr. John Delony?

  I'm gonna choose to remind my, I'm gonna practice when I see somebody, it's, I'm gonna go through a three-step process. I'm gonna exhale, I'm gonna drop my shoulders, and I'm gonna smile. And then the fourth thing is, hey, my name is, my name is Nick. What's your name?

• 44:26Dr. John Delony?

  And that might be, feel so stiff, and so awkward, and so uncomfortable, but I'm gonna practice that until it becomes just an automatic default setting.

• 44:36Dr. John Delony?

  Like shooting a bow and arrow, like fixing an air conditioner. The first time you're counting, okay, first add the copper to this fitting, and then turn on the torch, and then sweat it. Now you do it all without thinking.

• 44:50Dr. John Delony?

  If you want to do that.

• 44:52Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 44:53Dr. John Delony?

  Right?

• 44:56Dr. John Delony?

  I realized for, as a personal value, that most people, of most of the time, are exhausted and burned out. And adding my, like, particular personality brand of chaos to that, made them more on edge after they're with me than before. And I wanted people to be more peaceful after they met me than before. And so, I am continuing to work on that, but it's, I had to get intentional about doing different things. And it was just unnatural. It felt unnatural to me.

• 45:26Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 45:27Dr. John Delony?

  But I'll tell you, it's been worth the effort on the back end.

• 45:39Dr. John Delony?

  So what do you think?

• 45:41Speaker 03

  Yeah, definitely something I wanna, definitely something I want to change.

• 45:50Speaker 03

  Because like you said, I guess it's uncomfortable a lot of times.

• 45:53Dr. John Delony?

  It, it will be, if you find yourself lonely, if you find yourself at home in your apartment by yourself, and you're wishing you had some friends around, you wish people would call you and ask you for drinks, if you had a girlfriend or not, something like that, A, you can go first. You can ask the guys after work, hey, let's all go out.

• 46:16Dr. John Delony?

  You can go first and say, hey, I'm joining a softball league, and I don't even know how to play, I'm gonna be terrible, but y'all are playing with me.

• 46:23Dr. John Delony?

  You can choose to say, hey, we're all going bowling, let's go.

• 46:27Dr. John Delony?

  Bring your girlfriends and tell them to bring one of their friends too.

• 46:31Dr. John Delony?

  I mean, you can, you can take that awkward first step, and just, I mean, you're just putting yourself out there uncomfortable, right?

• 46:39Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 46:40Dr. John Delony?

  And then I can practice breathing, I can practice smiling with my eyes instead of my mouth, like a serial killer's only smile with their mouths, right? I, I can, I'm gonna smile with my eyes, I'm gonna drop my shoulders, I'm gonna put my hand out, I'm gonna, I'm gonna introduce myself. Am I just gonna stand here and lurk in the corner? I mean, you can go through that process and say, okay, I want to do this differently. And I'm just willing to go through the discomfort, and the potential rejection, and the potential awkward, until it becomes natural, becomes my first impulse. It's just gonna take practice.

• 47:15Speaker 03

  Right.

• 47:16Dr. John Delony?

  But I guess, I, I don't want you doing this because you think something's wrong with you, or something's broken within you.

• 47:27Dr. John Delony?

  If you want your relationships to be different, and if you want to feel just different around people, and you do have that social angst, when, when you're suddenly put in front of a group of people, or you're with new people, and you just feel that tightness in your chest, and just, your body's like disappear, disappear, disappear. If you want that to be different, then man, go sit down with a counselor in your local area, and just say, hey, I want to start practicing this and work through it. Bro, on the other end of that, it's called exposure. The nerd term is exposure therapy, but on the other end of that, man, you just find some freedom at the grocery store, at the gas station, at work, with friends, at a bowling alley. And personally, I like that. But not everybody does.

• 48:08Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 48:10Dr. John Delony?

  Does that sound enticing, or does that sound exhausting?

• 48:14Speaker 03

  Both.

• 48:16Dr. John Delony?

  Okay. If, if it's, if the discomfort and the awkwardness is gonna lead you to a world that you want, I say, go for it.

• 48:31Dr. John Delony?

  But go for it, not in, there's something wrong with me, and so, what I, what I get is I have to go be uncomfortable in front of people. Because you'll get tired of that quick. If it is, nah, dude, I'm a great guy, and I want some great friends, and I'm worth hanging out with, and so are they. And so I'm gonna start doing stuff that are, it's different, and you'll do that for the rest of your life, because you're doing it for yourself, not against yourself. You get that, you get the difference?

• 48:58Speaker 03

  Yeah, I think so, yeah.

• 48:59Dr. John Delony?

  Okay.

• 49:04Dr. John Delony?

  Dude, it sounds like you're in, man.

• 49:08Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 49:09Dr. John Delony?

  When's the last time you invited a group of guys out just to go grab a drink after work?

• 49:16Speaker 03

  Uh, it's been, I don't know if there has been a time.

• 49:22Dr. John Delony?

  Tonight, today, we're doing it today. Cool?

• 49:27Speaker 03

  Yeah, I can do that.

• 49:28Dr. John Delony?

  All right, maybe not today, but this week, we're doing it. We're starting. And they're gonna be like, what? What? Nick? And you're like, yep, we're going to hang out. And we're gonna play darts or something. We're gonna do something. We're not just gonna sit there and stare at each other. We're gonna do a thing.

• 49:42Dr. John Delony?

  And then I want you to lob the first joke. Nice hat, Tom. Nice shoes, Mike.

• 49:50Dr. John Delony?

  Lob the first, I'm in. And then they may look at you like, whoa, what happened to Nick? And you can just say, new you're new me, bro. Don't say that. They'll give you a hard time for that. But yeah, man, I, coming from a place of deficiency is, is a recipe for burnout. Coming from a place of, I'm worth this. This is gonna be uncomfortable. It's awkward. But I want to be, have people around me. So I'm gonna practice being approachable. And I'm not gonna be afraid to ask, hey, what makes me unapproachable? Well, you're, okay, cool. I'm gonna smile. Or whatever the thing is. I'm gonna begin practicing those things.

• 50:27Dr. John Delony?

  Similar to how I want to be less electric and chaotic and be more delightful. I got a long way to go, but man, the, the journey's been fun. Thanks for the call, Nick. You're a good man, dude. We'll be right back.

• 50:40Dr. John Delony?

  Hey, it's Deloney for Joy and Blokes. I'm super excited to have Joy and Blokes as a new partner on this show. The modern healthcare environment tells us to focus on symptoms, what feels wrong. And that makes sense, but staying on the surface of what feels wrong and focusing on how you feel all the time never gets to the root challenges of what you're facing. I've had blood work done by all the major platforms and Joy and Blokes is incredible. They start you with a comprehensive blood test that gives you real data about what's going on underneath your feelings, what's actually going on in your body. But it doesn't in there. A comprehensive blood panel doesn't mean much unless you can talk to someone who can walk you through it

• 51:22Dr. John Delony?

  and tell you what it means and what you can do to start living better. Joy and Blokes pairs you with a clinician who reviews your results, helps you create a personalized plan and helps you take action. Whether the answer is a few lifestyle changes or a more comprehensive treatment plan, everything can be prescribed and managed through Joy and Blokes. Joy and Blokes is for women and men who want to be proactive with their health and get underneath their feelings and find out just how their body is operating. Go to joyandblokes.com/deloney and get 50% off all labs and 20% off all products. That's J O I and B L O K E S. Joyandblokes.com/deloney.

• 52:08Dr. John Delony?

  All right, what's up, Kelly?

• 52:09Speaker 04

  All right, I got an email from a listener and I thought this was pretty great and wanted to read it. So this is from Esther in Florida. And she writes, Dear Dr. John, I'm writing this note to you knowing that I will likely never call into your show and that we will probably never speak. But I wanted to reach out on behalf of an invisible community. The large number of people who silently absorb your content every single day, doing the heavy, quiet work of healing in the background. For a long time, your show has been a companion to me. Your wisdom on boundaries, relationships, and specifically your insights into overcoming the emotional deficits of parents having fundamentally changed how I view my history and myself. Because of your advice, I've learned how to dismantle old childhood conditioning, calm my own nervous system and step up as the adult in my own life.

• 52:54Speaker 04

  I know you hear from a lot of callers about the impact you make, but please remember the massive silent army of us who are changing our lives in private because of your voice. Thank you for your wisdom, your empathy and your relentless dedication to helping people build safer lives. Please keep going. You are inspiring and healing more people than you will ever know. With deep gratitude, Esther.

• 53:15Dr. John Delony?

  I don't even know what to say about that, other than that was, I needed to hear that today.

• 53:20Speaker 04

  Well, I'm glad I saved it then.

• 53:22Dr. John Delony?

  I'm glad you saved that. And thank you for not adding, and thank you for your team. Esther, shout out. That was just for me, just for me, not for all y'all that make this whole thing happen. That was awesome. Hey, for everybody out there listening, who's just taken even the tiniest step to change your life. I'm with you and I'm grateful for you. We'll see you soon. Bye.