SYSK Gets Weird Playlist: What was the Philadelphia Experiment?

The Philadelphia Experiment is a bad movie from the 1980s, and also the conspiracy theory that refuses to die, despite virtually zero evidence of its occurrence. Learn all about this strange non-event in today's show. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:04Josh Clark?

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• 2:39Josh Clark?

  Hi there, friends. It's Josh. Finally, I'm here, and I'm presenting first our episode on the Philadelphia Experiment. It's a bizarre conspiracy theory that in 1943, the USS Eldridge, which is a real destroyer from the real US Navy, suddenly disappeared from port and instantaneously reappeared miles away. And that when it did reappear, things weren't quite right with it. I'll leave it to past me and Chuck to give the details in this fascinating episode.

• 3:16Speaker 00

  Welcome to Stuff You Should Know from HowStuffWorks.com.

• 3:26Josh Clark?

  Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark. There's Charles W. Chuck Bryant. And this is a special edition of Stuff You Should Know because Jerry has transmorgified into guest producer Noel.

• 3:37Speaker 04

  Which is, requires quite a bit of alchemy.

• 3:40Josh Clark?

  It does.

• 3:40Speaker 04

  You know?

• 3:41Josh Clark?

  And a little bit of alcohol.

• 3:42Speaker 04

  Yeah. And some, uh, and like a magnificent brown bearded chia pet.

• 3:49Josh Clark?

  Nice. There's a woodchuck waving from there. Looking good, Noel.

• 3:55Speaker 04

  Yeah, Jerry's gone on a top-secret mission. Can't talk about it. That's what makes it top-secret.

• 4:00Josh Clark?

  You're talking about it right now.

• 4:02Speaker 04

  But she's coming back at some point. Don't worry.

• 4:04Josh Clark?

  Yep.

• 4:05Speaker 04

  She's not left us forever.

• 4:06Josh Clark?

  No, this is a stint by guest producer Noel. We'll have to make a sweep out of it.

• 4:11Speaker 04

  Yeah. Noel produced shows you should know?

• 4:14Josh Clark?

  Summer of Sam, Death Suite, Noel's Stint.

• 4:18Speaker 04

  Noel's Stint. That sounds gross.

• 4:22Josh Clark?

  Uh, how you doing, man?

• 4:24Speaker 04

  I'm great.

• 4:25Josh Clark?

  I'm so used to reading ads these days that like I just panicked, like I lost my place. And then I was like, oh yeah, it's the actual podcast. I can just ramble and stall as long as I need to.

• 4:36Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 4:37Josh Clark?

  You remember this from your being a kid? Was this in your wheelhouse, the Philadelphia Experiment?

• 4:41Speaker 04

  The movie was.

• 4:42Josh Clark?

  Watched it last night.

• 4:43Speaker 04

  Sure. Oh, did you really?

• 4:44Josh Clark?

  Yes.

• 4:45Speaker 04

  Wow.

• 4:45Josh Clark?

  It is basically, I mean, the plot makes sense, but it's like a 15-minute plot.

• 4:52Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 4:52Josh Clark?

  They managed a lot of chasing in.

• 4:55Speaker 04

  Yeah, they really.

• 4:55Josh Clark?

  To really draw it out.

• 4:56Speaker 04

  They really gussy, yeah, they drew it out.

• 4:58Josh Clark?

  But the idea behind it, especially when, let's see, 1984, I was eight.

• 5:03Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 5:04Josh Clark?

  And I was, this was about the time where I'm like, I'm going to Duke University to study parapsychology when I get older.

• 5:10Speaker 04

  When you were eight?

• 5:10Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 5:11Speaker 04

  I didn't even know what college was when I was eight.

• 5:13Josh Clark?

  Definitely, that was in my wheelhouse.

• 5:14Speaker 04

  Really?

• 5:15Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 5:15Speaker 04

  Wow.

• 5:16Josh Clark?

  So this was like right up my alley.

• 5:18Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 5:18Josh Clark?

  Now that I watch it as a child, I'm like, man, I was an idiot when I was eight.

• 5:22Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 5:22Josh Clark?

  But it was pretty cool. The, the special effects are like 80s-riffic.

• 5:27Speaker 04

  Oh, yes. They do not hold up.

• 5:29Josh Clark?

  No, but I mean, if you're a fan of Tron, you're gonna, or Videodrome.

• 5:34Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 5:35Josh Clark?

  You're gonna love this movie.

• 5:36Speaker 04

  Uh, starring the great Michael Perre.

• 5:39Josh Clark?

  Yes, and, um, RoboCop's partner.

• 5:42Speaker 04

  Yeah, Nancy Allen.

• 5:43Josh Clark?

  Mm-hmm. Was she, who was, what else was she in famously?

• 5:47Speaker 04

  She was in a bunch of 80s movies.

• 5:49Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 5:49Speaker 04

  She was big back then.

• 5:50Josh Clark?

  What was her big one, though? Or was she always like co-starring the female lead?

• 5:54Speaker 04

  I think, yeah, I don't think she was ever like the lead in a movie. They didn't make movies with female leads in the 80s.

• 6:00Josh Clark?

  I can't remember, in this context, are we allowed to say female, or should it be the girl lead? It's a female lead, right?

• 6:07Speaker 04

  They didn't make leads with, uh, women, uh, as the lead in the 80s. They're all just there to prop up the dudes.

• 6:13Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 6:14Speaker 04

  Which is still how it is.

• 6:16Josh Clark?

  Working Girl, that was in the 80s.

• 6:18Speaker 04

  Good point.

• 6:19Josh Clark?

  Nine to Five.

• 6:21Speaker 04

  Three ladies.

• 6:22Josh Clark?

  Mm-hmm.

• 6:22Speaker 04

  All right, I take it back.

• 6:23Josh Clark?

  Okay.

• 6:24Speaker 04

  Few and far between. What I'm, I'm trying to lobby for gender equality in Hollywood.

• 6:29Josh Clark?

  Yeah. And, well, you should.

• 6:31Speaker 04

  And you're like, no, look at Nine to Five.

• 6:33Josh Clark?

  No, I'm just saying, it's, I mean, there were some.

• 6:35Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah, you're right.

• 6:36Josh Clark?

  Yeah, I, I agree with you. I don't mean to argue. You're right. It's few, they were few and far between.

• 6:40Speaker 04

  That's what you call a trap.

• 6:42Josh Clark?

  What about Barbarella?

• 6:44Speaker 04

  Yeah, that was, what, 70s or was it 60s?

• 6:46Josh Clark?

  I think the 60s.

• 6:47Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 6:48Josh Clark?

  Yep.

• 6:48Speaker 04

  Jane Fonda.

• 6:49Josh Clark?

  Well, just like the makers of the Philadelphia Experiment, you and I know how to draw out a 15-minute plot.

• 6:56Speaker 04

  Hey, also, I wanted to point out, Michael Perre disappeared in Eddie and the Cruisers.

• 7:01Josh Clark?

  Oh, is that, was he in that?

• 7:03Speaker 04

  He was Eddie.

• 7:04Josh Clark?

  Was the, was that based on Bruce Springsteen or something like that?

• 7:08Speaker 04

  No.

• 7:08Josh Clark?

  Was it based on any real-life band?

• 7:10Speaker 04

  No. I mean, it, it echoed, he was, he was Springsteen-esque.

• 7:15Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 7:15Speaker 04

  But it wasn't like, you know, I think they were just, I think the writers like, who do I like? Eh, I like Springsteen.

• 7:22Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 7:22Speaker 04

  So let's get John Cafferty to sing like Springsteen. And put Michael Perre to lip sync.

• 7:28Josh Clark?

  Wow, that's a.

• 7:29Speaker 04

  Just Eddie.

• 7:29Josh Clark?

  That's, that's 80s-riffic, too.

• 7:33Speaker 04

  And I saw John Cafferty in concert in the 80s. That's how.

• 7:36Josh Clark?

  What else is he in?

• 7:37Speaker 04

  No, he was the band. He was the real band, John Cafferty and the Beaver Brown Band.

• 7:42Josh Clark?

  Okay.

• 7:42Speaker 04

  They sang those songs for real, and I saw them in concert at Six Flags.

• 7:46Josh Clark?

  Wow.

• 7:46Speaker 04

  How about that?

• 7:47Josh Clark?

  And they've now become the Zac Brown Band.

• 7:49Speaker 04

  That's right.

• 7:50Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 7:50Speaker 04

  Who looks like Noel. Full circle.

• 7:53Josh Clark?

  Full circle. We just did it.

• 7:56Speaker 04

  Can we be done now?

• 7:57Josh Clark?

  Yep. So the Philadelphia Experiment, I guess, was right up Michael Perre's, um, alley because it echoed real life, too. In a way, in a way.

• 8:07Speaker 04

  Sure.

• 8:08Josh Clark?

  Uh, the makers went back and read a couple of books that purported to be nonfiction accounts of this incredible experiment carried out by the, the Navy.

• 8:18Speaker 04

  So incredible.

• 8:19Josh Clark?

  And we should probably, let's, let's describe the experiment to begin with, right?

• 8:23Speaker 04

  Uh, experiments, we should say.

• 8:25Josh Clark?

  Yeah, that's true. Uh, this article gets it wrong.

• 8:27Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 8:28Josh Clark?

  On How Stuff Works.

• 8:29Speaker 04

  Yeah, there were two separate things, uh, both involving the, uh, a destroyer ship called the USS Eldridge, recently commissioned. Uh, summer of 1943 is when it began.

• 8:41Josh Clark?

  July, I think.

• 8:42Speaker 04

  And what supposedly happened was that there was, um, this ship, and there was a big secret Navy experiment that, whose, what's aim was to make the ship disappear.

• 8:55Josh Clark?

  Yeah, not just to like radar something like that, but if there was a guy with a periscope, he would look right past the ship because it had been made invisible.

• 9:03Speaker 04

  Essentially invisible.

• 9:05Josh Clark?

  And then the story goes that that was successful. It was a successful experiment that was carried out.

• 9:11Speaker 04

  Yeah, it disappeared in full view in broad daylight.

• 9:13Josh Clark?

  Uh-huh.

• 9:14Speaker 04

  Uh, and then from the, was it the Philadelphia Shipyard?

• 9:17Josh Clark?

  Yep.

• 9:17Speaker 04

  And then reappeared, uh, there was a big glow.

• 9:21Josh Clark?

  Yes.

• 9:22Speaker 04

  And then it reappeared, and all the, the sailors aboard were in bad shape.

• 9:27Josh Clark?

  So did that take place in July, or was that?

• 9:29Speaker 04

  That took place in July.

• 9:30Josh Clark?

  Okay, well, okay, then it happened again in October, within the second experiment?

• 9:34Speaker 04

  Yeah, then they retry the experiment supposedly. The ship disappeared and popped up in Virginia.

• 9:40Josh Clark?

  Norfolk, Virginia.

• 9:41Speaker 04

  And then, then reappeared 10 minutes prior. So it time-traveled back 10 minutes in Phil, uh, to Philadelphia again.

• 9:49Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 9:50Speaker 04

  And again, the sailors were in bad shape.

• 9:53Josh Clark?

  Even by teleportation standards, that's impossible.

• 9:56Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 9:57Josh Clark?

  You know what I mean?

• 9:58Speaker 04

  Yeah, and supposedly these, uh, the shipmen were, um, uh, seamen were, were,

• 10:05Speaker 04

  some were caught like in the middle of the ship.

• 10:07Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 10:07Speaker 04

  And crazed and crazy.

• 10:09Josh Clark?

  Right. So basically, the implication is, is that they had been some sort of, or in some fashion, molecularly disintegrated.

• 10:16Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 10:16Josh Clark?

  Along with the ship. And then when it was brought back together, the coordinates were maybe off slightly.

• 10:22Speaker 04

  Right.

• 10:22Josh Clark?

  Maybe the ship and the people were where they were 10 minutes earlier.

• 10:27Speaker 04

  Right.

• 10:28Josh Clark?

  And things just went a little haywire.

• 10:31Speaker 04

  Like, oh, my upper half's on the Lido deck, and my lower half's on the, uh, what were the other decks on the left?

• 10:37Josh Clark?

  The, uh, man, that's the only deck I know. The party deck.

• 10:41Speaker 04

  The Tango Deck?

• 10:42Josh Clark?

  Sure. The Tango Deck.

• 10:43Speaker 04

  Uh-huh.

• 10:44Josh Clark?

  Yeah. Uh, and the, the, um, and I'm still alive, and I've also gone mad. Cause my brain didn't configure back correctly either.

• 10:53Speaker 04

  Yes, and this was all possible thanks to, um, Albert Einstein, working with the Navy.

• 11:00Josh Clark?

  Yep.

• 11:00Speaker 04

  And teaching them all his little tricks on how you can make ships disappear in time travel.

• 11:04Josh Clark?

  Specifically, the theory is that, um, or the rumor, the conjecture, the conspiracy theory, is that, um, Albert Einstein figured out the unified field theory.

• 11:16Speaker 04

  Which is not true. He did not.

• 11:18Josh Clark?

  Basically, the theory of everything. No, it frustrated him for his whole life. There's this idea in physics that.

• 11:26Josh Clark?

  There's possibly one explanation for the behavior of everything in the universe.

• 11:34Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 11:34Josh Clark?

  Right now, we've got a pretty good theory. I think the theory of special relativity ties in three of the fundamental forces in the universe.

• 11:41Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 11:42Josh Clark?

  But gravity's this outlier that can't be tied in through physics formulas. And they think that there's some way of understanding things to where everything ties together. And as I think Michio Kaku famously put it, um, he said that what, what they're searching for with a unified field theory is with an, uh, formula an inch long.

• 12:04Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 12:04Josh Clark?

  You'll be able to read God's mind.

• 12:06Speaker 04

  Man.

• 12:07Josh Clark?

  So the idea is that, that Einstein came up with this unified the field theory.

• 12:12Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 12:12Josh Clark?

  Again, not true. And that it was used to understand how to teleport things. So they used this understanding to carry out an experiment with a bunch of Navy seamen on a destroyer.

• 12:24Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 12:24Josh Clark?

  In broad daylight.

• 12:25Speaker 04

  Cause you could, you can imagine the advantage to be able to make your ship invisible.

• 12:29Josh Clark?

  Not only that, if you could figure out how to teleport it.

• 12:32Speaker 04

  Like you're, you're done, dude. No more war because you would win them all.

• 12:36Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 12:37Speaker 04

  And the rest of the world would just cower at your invisible feet.

• 12:39Josh Clark?

  Yeah. You'd just suddenly pop up behind your enemy.

• 12:42Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 12:42Josh Clark?

  Put him in a full Nelson and be like, you give, you give. You'd be like, I give. And that's it. You just let him go and be like, that's right. And you teleport out of there.

• 12:49Speaker 04

  You see how easily that could happen? Nazi?

• 12:52Josh Clark?

  Unified field theory.

• 12:54Speaker 04

  All right. So the Philadelphia experiment never happened like that, at least.

• 12:59Josh Clark?

  What?

• 13:00Speaker 04

  We'll go ahead and not give any credence to the conspiracy theorists out there, although we'll probably get a couple of people that emailed in.

• 13:08Josh Clark?

  Oh man, this is, this is like a nucleus of conspiracy theory. It ties in UFOs.

• 13:15Speaker 04

  Sure.

• 13:15Josh Clark?

  Ties in theoretical physics.

• 13:17Speaker 04

  Yeah. The US government, of course.

• 13:19Josh Clark?

  Yep. Uh, ginormous cover up. Um, it, it ties in all these different things and it's really, really interesting. If you go read this stuff, it's, it's, it's, to me, it's more interesting than just, just UFO conspiracy theory. You're just government cover up conspiracy theory.

• 13:34Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 13:34Josh Clark?

  It's like a clearinghouse of conspiracy theories, all tied up into one package, uh, on this secret experiment that if you listen to the Navy's official line, never took place. There never was a Philadelphia experiment.

• 13:46Speaker 04

  Right.

• 13:46Josh Clark?

  There never was, it was also known as Project Rainbow. There was never a Project Rainbow.

• 13:50Speaker 04

  No.

• 13:51Josh Clark?

  Um, it just didn't happen. The whole thing was made up out of whole cloth, apparently, by a guy named Carlos M. Allende.

• 14:01Speaker 04

  Yeah. And there were, there was a couple of hinky details. We'll go over why this thing has survived, uh, a little bit later, but there are a few hinky details, not to make it believable, but that just have fueled the fire over the years.

• 14:13Josh Clark?

  Yeah. And let's, let's take a break right here, Chuck, cause I'm getting a little over excited.

• 14:17Speaker 04

  Okay. Just put this under your tongue. You'll be fine.

• 14:20Josh Clark?

  Okay.

• 14:35Speaker 05

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• 15:03Speaker 06

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• 15:40Speaker 04

  All right. Wake up, buddy.

• 15:41Josh Clark?

  Huh? What?

• 15:43Speaker 04

  We're back.

• 15:44Josh Clark?

  Oh, okay.

• 15:45Speaker 04

  How much time has passed in your mind?

• 15:47Josh Clark?

  Millions of years.

• 15:48Speaker 04

  No, it's only been about three hours.

• 15:50Josh Clark?

  Oh, okay.

• 15:51Speaker 04

  Do you feel rested?

• 15:52Josh Clark?

  I do feel very refreshed.

• 15:54Speaker 04

  Good. Well, we can continue. So, uh, you teased a man named, uh, well, he had some different names. Carl M. Allen, or under his pseudonym, Carlos Miguel, uh, Allende.

• 16:08Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 16:10Speaker 04

  He's like, hey, let me throw a D E on the end. I'll sound mysterious.

• 16:13Josh Clark?

  Yeah. An O S and a D E.

• 16:17Speaker 04

  So, uh, in 1956, uh, I was going to get in the wayback machine, but I don't think we should even bother for this.

• 16:24Josh Clark?

  No, this actually proves there is no wayback machine.

• 16:27Speaker 04

  That's right. So in 1956, in real time, uh, Allende sent, um, a letter and he would go on to send about 50 more letters to an author named Morris Jessup, who wrote a book a year earlier called The Case for the UFO.

• 16:42Josh Clark?

  Yes. Which you can find on the podcast page for this episode.

• 16:45Speaker 04

  Yeah. And he's a, he was an author. He's like a legit dude that wrote a bunch of books. I mean, well, I mean.

• 16:52Josh Clark?

  He's legit.

• 16:53Speaker 04

  I don't mean legit as in, uh, like he proved any science behind UFOs.

• 16:58Josh Clark?

  Right, right.

• 16:58Speaker 04

  But he was, uh, he authored books for real.

• 17:01Josh Clark?

  Yes.

• 17:01Speaker 04

  He wasn't printing mana, he wasn't just publishing manifestos online.

• 17:04Josh Clark?

  And he was a, um, a conspiratorially minded investigator.

• 17:09Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 17:10Josh Clark?

  But if you read like his writing, it was just nothing but conjecture.

• 17:14Speaker 04

  Sure.

• 17:14Josh Clark?

  Nothing. There was nothing in it, but conjecture presented as fact.

• 17:18Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 17:18Josh Clark?

  And even says like, these are, uh, there are three basic proven facts about this. And then here's some more facts. And it's like, no, these aren't facts at all. But it's really fascinating stuff.

• 17:29Speaker 04

  Maybe he doesn't know what facts are.

• 17:31Josh Clark?

  Maybe so.

• 17:32Speaker 04

  Uh, so he got these letters and, um, in these letters, uh, at first there were some attacks on him and from, uh, from Allen saying, you don't know what you're talking about, man. You're getting this unified field theory all wrong. And I know because Einstein spent several weeks with me, teaching me this stuff himself.

• 17:50Josh Clark?

  Yeah. And not only that.

• 17:51Speaker 04

  So it's like cuckoo pot writes crackpot.

• 17:53Josh Clark?

  Right. And he, he was saying like, I can prove that, that unified field theory has been mastered by describing this experiment that took place in Philadelphia in 1943 concerning one US destroyer called the USS Eldridge.

• 18:10Speaker 04

  Yes. And he said, I know this because I was there, buddy. I was on a ship in that harbor and there were other ships in the harbor. That seems to be the only part that's true.

• 18:20Josh Clark?

  Yeah. I mean, this was a place where ships were being outfitted.

• 18:23Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 18:23Josh Clark?

  Like throughout the summer and fall.

• 18:25Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 18:25Josh Clark?

  It was the war.

• 18:27Speaker 04

  That's right. So he claimed that he was on one of these ships. He said, I witnessed this, uh, in person. I saw this green glow. I saw this thing disappear.

• 18:37Josh Clark?

  Not only that, he could see, he could see the, the field that was created by this, this, um, experiment.

• 18:44Speaker 04

  Yeah. The green glow.

• 18:45Josh Clark?

  And he stuck his arm into it. He was that close.

• 18:49Speaker 04

  Stuff of movies, right?

• 18:51Josh Clark?

  Stuff of 1980s B movies.

• 18:54Speaker 04

  Yeah. Uh, so he sends these letters and.

• 18:57Josh Clark?

  He sends like 50 of them.

• 18:58Speaker 04

  Yeah. And Jessup said, uh, you know what? Let me investigate this a little bit because I'm a crackpot too. I, I get where you're coming from.

• 19:06Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 19:06Speaker 04

  So let me just check into this a little.

• 19:08Josh Clark?

  This is right up my alley.

• 19:09Speaker 04

  Thank you for these. Uh, let me look into this a little bit. And he basically gave up because the dude could produce, he asked him for some evidence.

• 19:18Josh Clark?

  Or names.

• 19:19Speaker 04

  Anything. And he had nothing.

• 19:21Josh Clark?

  He didn't. He just said, here's the story and it's fact. And he goes, um, Carlos Allende, who by then I think had dropped the pseudonym, right? To Carl Allen?

• 19:31Speaker 04

  Who knows? He might've called himself Big Bird at that point.

• 19:34Josh Clark?

  So he was, and he was a very disturbed man.

• 19:36Speaker 04

  Yeah. I'm joking, but yeah, he, he had mental problems.

• 19:38Josh Clark?

  He did. Um, but if you, if you research him and you research even skeptics of the Philadelphia experiment, like the stuff he was coming up with was really interesting stuff.

• 19:49Speaker 04

  Yeah. He was good, a good writer.

• 19:51Josh Clark?

  But he was a huge confabulator as well.

• 19:54Speaker 04

  Sure.

• 19:54Josh Clark?

  So, um, he's saying all this is, is fact and he, uh, he, he's saying, I don't know what the dates were. I don't know the people's names or anything like that, but perhaps if I were put under narco hypnosis, I would remember all this stuff. So you got any drugs?

• 20:09Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 20:10Josh Clark?

  And about this time, uh, Jessup said, I'm done with this, right? He had actually moved on because apparently the government had directly addressed UFO rumors and no, Jessup didn't do that. I'm sorry. Another guy did.

• 20:25Speaker 04

  Oh, okay.

• 20:26Josh Clark?

  Um, who was interested in researching, um, Allende.

• 20:29Speaker 04

  But I'm sure Jessup was like, I gotta get back to my serious work investigating UFOs.

• 20:32Josh Clark?

  He did.

• 20:33Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 20:33Josh Clark?

  But then something truly bizarre happened and this did happen. He got a, a knock on his door and two researchers from the Office of Naval Research, who would have been carrying out experiments like this.

• 20:47Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 20:47Josh Clark?

  Said.

• 20:48Speaker 04

  Theory. Sure.

• 20:48Josh Clark?

  Hey, have you ever heard of a guy named Carlos Allende? And you probably could have picked, uh, MK Jessup off the floor.

• 20:57Speaker 04

  I would imagine so.

• 20:58Josh Clark?

  Cause I mean.

• 20:58Speaker 04

  Yeah. He was like, it's all true.

• 21:00Josh Clark?

  Yeah, exactly. And he said, come in, come in, please have some tea, have some opiates.

• 21:06Speaker 04

  Uh, it was 1957 at this point and they said, you know what? We got a package a year ago. Um, and it had a copy of your book, my friend, um, the UFOs. And it was, um.

• 21:19Josh Clark?

  The case for UFOs.

• 21:20Speaker 04

  Yeah. It was annotated very heavily.

• 21:22Josh Clark?

  By three people.

• 21:24Speaker 04

  Well, by, by three. Sets of ink and three types of handwriting.

• 21:29Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 21:30Speaker 04

  Which were all clearly from Carl Allen.

• 21:32Josh Clark?

  Well, they were to M.K. Jessup, who corresponded with Carl Allen for well over 50 letters, right?

• 21:38Speaker 04

  Yeah, he said, "I'm not fooled. This guy, Jemmy, J.E.M.I."

• 21:41Josh Clark?

  Who may have been an alien.

• 21:43Speaker 04

  It's Carl Allen and Mr. A and Mr. B are both Carl Allen. They're all Carl Allen.

• 21:48Josh Clark?

  But regardless of whether they were all one dude, the annotations had fascinated these two Navy researchers enough that they supposedly, as far as the Office of Naval Research officially says, they took it upon themselves and paid out of their own pockets and I guess took vacation time to go find M.K. Jessup.

• 22:09Speaker 04

  Yeah, I haven't found, I saw a bunch of conflicting reports on that, whether or not, and this is what conspiracy theorists will point to, that either it was official business or they did it on their own.

• 22:19Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 22:20Speaker 04

  Either way, they say that that means something. And I've heard it explained away as it was just something on their list that they eventually had to get to.

• 22:30Josh Clark?

  That seems like a terrible explanation. I think this adds like a real wrinkle to the story. Whether purposefully or it's just something that can't be very easily explained away, maybe it is. It was just these guys were really interested in this. Maybe they were into UFO stuff or whatever.

• 22:45Speaker 04

  Maybe.

• 22:46Josh Clark?

  It doesn't matter. The fact that those two guys showed up gives this thing legs for miles.

• 22:52Speaker 04

  Sure.

• 22:52Josh Clark?

  You know?

• 22:53Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 22:53Josh Clark?

  And it's just awesome that that happened because that has kept this thing alive in part.

• 22:58Speaker 04

  Yeah, and the box came to them marked "Happy Easter," which I thought was kind of funny. And it had weird punctuation and capitalizations, all the marks of a madman.

• 23:08Josh Clark?

  Right. But again, like the stuff he was saying was, it was curiosity arousing in these guys. And they actually took, and again supposedly paid for out of their own pocket, the annotated version of The Case for UFOs and published it with annotations. They had a contractor, a military contractor called Verro Technologies, I think, and had them publish it, which is weird, especially if they were doing it out of their own pocket, but then again...

• 23:39Speaker 04

  There was only 127 copies. I imagine it didn't cost that much.

• 23:42Josh Clark?

  I saw 25 even, and they were like spiral bound, so it wasn't even fancy.

• 23:46Speaker 04

  I read a lot of this and it's, you know.

• 23:51Josh Clark?

  It's like...

• 23:51Speaker 04

  It's really out there.

• 23:52Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 23:53Speaker 04

  You know?

• 23:53Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 23:54Speaker 04

  But I imagine if you're a UFO enthusiast, it might interest you.

• 23:58Josh Clark?

  I mean, if you read Morris Jessup's stuff, it's out there too.

• 24:03Speaker 04

  Well, I imagine reading that with the annotation from this other dude.

• 24:07Josh Clark?

  Yeah, I was gonna say, I get the impression that Carlos Ande's stuff was even more out there.

• 24:11Speaker 04

  Yeah, you can get it online. It's on, there's PDFs of it if you wanna...

• 24:15Josh Clark?

  Oh, the Verro one?

• 24:16Speaker 04

  Oh, yeah.

• 24:16Josh Clark?

  But supposedly, there's a lot of forged copies as well.

• 24:19Speaker 04

  Oh, really?

• 24:20Josh Clark?

  In circulation, yeah.

• 24:21Speaker 04

  Yeah, I don't know. This seemed real. Why would someone take the time to forge a copy of The Crackpot Manifesto?

• 24:30Josh Clark?

  That's a question we should all be asking ourselves.

• 24:33Speaker 04

  So Jessup's story ends just a couple of years later. He was down on his luck and he got injured really badly in a car accident, had a bad breakup with his wife, and he killed himself. He put a hose from his car exhaust into his window. And this is one of the other reasons that conspiracy theory, anytime there's a suicide

• 24:57Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 24:58Speaker 04

  and there's the government involved, it's pretty easy to say, "He didn't kill himself. The government killed him."

• 25:02Josh Clark?

  Right. It's made all the more suspicious though because supposedly, it was the day that he was to meet a friend.

• 25:11Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 25:11Josh Clark?

  Who he had said, he had told, "I've made a breakthrough in the Philadelphia Experiment case."

• 25:16Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 25:16Josh Clark?

  And then all of a sudden, he turns up dead of a suicide.

• 25:18Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 25:19Josh Clark?

  So, I mean, that and the ONR guy showing up at his door definitely has kept this thing alive.

• 25:26Speaker 04

  It has. Supposedly, his friends came out and said, "Now, he was deeply depressed and he had talked of suicide in the months before he committed suicide."

• 25:34Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 25:35Speaker 04

  But then, I'm sure conspiracy theorists will say, "They paid them off, man."

• 25:39Josh Clark?

  Yeah. Because people said, "You can let my family go now, Navy. I did what you said."

• 25:44Speaker 04

  And the Eldridge had a pretty, well, it didn't go on to like great things. It was sold to Greece or transferred to Greece, renamed the HS Leon, used in exercises and then sold for scrap metal in the 1990s.

• 26:01Josh Clark?

  Yep.

• 26:01Speaker 04

  So, no big deal with the boat, right?

• 26:03Josh Clark?

  No bigs.

• 26:04Speaker 04

  So, we'll take another little break here and we'll come back and we'll talk about what really happened in the Philadelphia shipyard that day.

• 26:25Speaker 05

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• 27:35Speaker 04

  All right. What really happened, Josh?

• 27:38Josh Clark?

  Nothing. That's supposedly what really happened. Apparently, on that day in the naval shipyard, I guess either July or October, but July, I think, is the one that people typically, if they just think it was a one-day thing rather than two separate experiments, it's usually July that they point to, which they did in this article too.

• 27:56Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 27:57Josh Clark?

  On that particular day, the USS Eldridge wasn't even in Philadelphia.

• 28:02Speaker 04

  Yeah, this is the part I don't understand.

• 28:03Josh Clark?

  It was in Brooklyn.

• 28:04Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 28:05Josh Clark?

  So, here's the thing. That revelation came out in 1999. We'll get to that in a minute. Prior to this, there is a researcher, he's an astrophysicist and ufologist named Jacques F. Vallée. And he was actually the inspiration for the ufologist-Frenchman character in Close Encounters of the Third Kind.

• 28:26Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 28:27Josh Clark?

  And he was also like a venture capitalist. He's a pretty sharp dude. He just had some unusual interests, right?

• 28:33Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 28:34Josh Clark?

  But one of the things that he dedicated himself to was disproving the Philadelphia Experiment, proving that it was a hoax. He was a skeptic, right?

• 28:42Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 28:42Josh Clark?

  In some manner, he was a skeptic.

• 28:44Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 28:45Josh Clark?

  So, he wrote a paper and in the paper, he invited people to reach out to him if they had further information about the Philadelphia Experiment. And as a result, allegedly, he was contacted in 1994 by a guy named Edward Dugan or Dudgeon. Let's say Dudgeon. It's a little more pleasant than Dugan.

• 29:07Speaker 04

  I bet his friends called him "The Dungeon."

• 29:09Josh Clark?

  Yeah, I'll bet.

• 29:09Speaker 04

  You know?

• 29:10Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 29:11Speaker 04

  That's what I would have called him.

• 29:11Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 29:12Speaker 04

  So, yeah, he responded. The paper was called Anatomy of a Hoax: The Philadelphia Experiment 50 Years Later in the Journal of Scientific Exploration. And Dudgeon got in touch and said, "You know what? I was in the Navy from 42 to 45. I was on that boat and I can explain what happened."

• 29:30Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 29:31Speaker 04

  Which is pretty exciting.

• 29:32Josh Clark?

  Well, he was on the Engstrom, which was there at the same time.

• 29:36Speaker 04

  Oh, I thought he was on the actual boat. No.

• 29:38Josh Clark?

  No, he was an electrician on the Engstrom, but he said he was fully aware of all of the electrical components on the Engstrom and on the Eldridge.

• 29:45Speaker 04

  Yeah, because they all party together.

• 29:47Josh Clark?

  Sure, exactly. That actually comes up later. So, he was saying, he basically had a pat and completely sensible and reasonable answer for every single part of the Philadelphia Experiment. For example, part of the Philadelphia Experiment legend is that a brawl broke out in a bar following the experiment and two of the sailors onboard the Eldridge suddenly disappeared. They vanished.

• 30:15Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 30:15Josh Clark?

  Well, Dugan, Dudgeon, says, "I was one of those guys. I actually faked my age on my enlistment paper. So, I was underage and shouldn't have been in the bar. And the bartender took pity on me and another underage dude and shoot us out the back door and then pretended that she'd never seen us."

• 30:37Speaker 04

  So, they disappeared.

• 30:37Josh Clark?

  They disappeared, exactly.

• 30:39Speaker 04

  Out the back door.

• 30:40Josh Clark?

  Another one, he says, well, he explains the whole thing, basically, right?

• 30:44Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 30:44Josh Clark?

  He says, "There was no experiment like that, but they were doing something that might have seemed freaky to the uninitiated and that was degossing the ships."

• 30:52Speaker 04

  Yeah, at the time, Germany and I guess everyone else really in the Navy, in the navies around the world, they had magnetic mines, sea mines.

• 31:01Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 31:01Speaker 04

  Which would find your boat and, you know, go, "Ooh, that's metal. Let me go stick on that thing and blow up."

• 31:08Josh Clark?

  Yeah, and torpedoes that were magnetic seeking too.

• 31:11Speaker 04

  Yeah, and they thought, "You know what? Let's come up with a way to make our ship hulls and our metal parts non-magnetic to these obstacles."

• 31:21Josh Clark?

  Right, which is an established...

• 31:25Josh Clark?

  Project, I guess, or an established, what's the word I'm looking for? Process.

• 31:30Speaker 04

  Sure.

• 31:30Josh Clark?

  So I was close with project.

• 31:31Speaker 04

  Yeah, it was a real thing.

• 31:32Josh Clark?

  Yeah, it's called degossing. And it basically either changes or gets rid of the magnetism of a, of something that was formerly magnetic, like the ship's hull.

• 31:43Speaker 04

  It does not make it invisible to radar or otherwise.

• 31:47Josh Clark?

  But it probably looks pretty weird, right? So they wrapped the ships in hundreds and hundreds of meters of cable. And then ran a really high voltage electrical charge through it. And supposedly this would demagnetize the ships, which really came in handy. Because at the time, just outside of America's coastal waters was called the graveyard of the Atlantic.

• 32:11Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 32:11Josh Clark?

  Because the German U-boats were running the show out there at this time.

• 32:14Speaker 04

  Yeah, and as we learned in our, did Nazis invade Florida?

• 32:18Josh Clark?

  Mm-hmm.

• 32:19Speaker 04

  They sometimes were parked right off the coast.

• 32:21Josh Clark?

  Exactly. So they were taking out our destroyers and our cruisers and our battleships. So this was a, this was a big deal to be able to do that kind of thing. Although, and it was classified stuff, it wasn't experimentation in anything that hadn't been proven before. It was like, we're just demagnetizing our battleships.

• 32:40Speaker 04

  Yeah, they could have had a big sign up, said, "Degossing at work, stand back."

• 32:46Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 32:46Speaker 04

  It was no big, super-secret thing.

• 32:48Josh Clark?

  Right, but if you're a Nazi, don't read this sign.

• 32:50Speaker 04

  Right.

• 32:51Josh Clark?

  The other thing that Dudgeon addressed was the, the concept that the Eldridge disappeared from the Philadelphia shipyard, reappeared in Norfolk, and then reappeared back in Philadelphia.

• 33:05Speaker 04

  Well, that happened, but it just went there and then came back.

• 33:10Josh Clark?

  Right, but it didn't happen in like, five minutes, or 10 minutes, or 30 seconds.

• 33:14Speaker 04

  No.

• 33:14Josh Clark?

  But, again, he points out, like, if you weren't really, if you were just casually paying attention, you might have seen the, the Eldridge in Philadelphia that night, and then noticed it was missing late at night, and then noticed it was back in the morning.

• 33:30Speaker 04

  Yeah, which would seem impossible, because that was supposedly a two-day trip.

• 33:34Josh Clark?

  Yeah, two days, including there and back.

• 33:36Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 33:36Josh Clark?

  Round trip was two days up the, up the coast. But apparently, the Navy had a canal that they used, I think the Delaware Chesapeake Canal, that only the military could use, and they could make that round trip in six hours.

• 33:49Speaker 04

  Yeah, so in other words, it's easily explainable that it just simply, I keep wanting to say sailed, but it's not sailing.

• 33:57Josh Clark?

  I think they still call it that.

• 33:58Speaker 04

  Do they?

• 33:59Josh Clark?

  Set sail, yeah, ship out.

• 34:01Speaker 04

  Yeah, it shipped out and shipped back.

• 34:03Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 34:04Speaker 04

  In a regular amount of time.

• 34:06Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 34:06Speaker 04

  And it just became part of the lore.

• 34:08Josh Clark?

  Yeah, and I mean, you can even tack on a few hours there. Apparently Norfolk was when they, where they outfitted it with, with their explosives. And apparently, they could load a battleship in four hours.

• 34:19Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 34:20Josh Clark?

  So even taking that into account, it's still 10 hours. If it shipped out at 11:00 PM, which is what Dudgeon says, right?

• 34:28Speaker 04

  Dudgeon? I think you went with Dudgeon.

• 34:30Josh Clark?

  Yeah. He, he says that if it shipped out at 11:00, it'd still be back by 9:00 AM.

• 34:37Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 34:37Josh Clark?

  So, again, if you're just casually paying attention, what seems pretty mysterious really took on legs over time. It's basically like a game of telephone, like any conspiracy theory.

• 34:47Speaker 04

  Sure.

• 34:48Josh Clark?

  Maybe there's a kernel of truth that got exaggerated by some drunken sailors, and then bam, it, it gets shrunk down to 10 seconds through a teleportation experiment.

• 34:57Speaker 04

  Well, and these sailors, the drunken sailors supposedly could have been overheard saying things like, you know, "They're gonna make our ship disappear, they're gonna make us invisible." When in fact, what they were saying is, they're going to make it more or less invisible to these minds.

• 35:11Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 35:12Speaker 04

  Got all twisted around, it wasn't literally invisible.

• 35:15Josh Clark?

  Yeah, and so, there were apparently tons of merchant seamen around the area as well.

• 35:23Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 35:23Josh Clark?

  So again, this would have been classified stuff, if there had been loose lips, which sink ships.

• 35:29Speaker 04

  They do.

• 35:31Josh Clark?

  And somebody had said, like, "We're gonna make it invisible," like you said, they would have picked up on that. Maybe they were the ones who were just casually paying attention to the, to the Eldridge here or there, and it just seemed to disappear and reappear.

• 35:43Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 35:45Josh Clark?

  And there's this guy named Robert Gorman, and he, in a 1980 Fate Magazine article, wrote about tracking down Carlos Ande. He was from the same hometown as him. And it turned out that he already knew the guy's father, he just didn't realize that he was Carlos Ande's father, or Carl Allen's father.

• 36:06Speaker 04

  Your old man Allen's son?

• 36:08Josh Clark?

  Yeah, pretty much.

• 36:09Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 36:09Josh Clark?

  And he managed to interview the family and get a pretty good picture of the guy. But one of the things that he found was Carl Allen's merchant seaman papers.

• 36:19Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 36:20Josh Clark?

  So it's entirely possible he was there around the time, or if he wasn't there at the time, he may have been, he may have known somebody who was there at the time.

• 36:29Speaker 04

  I could totally see him have been there, and that's probably how he got the idea to cook it up.

• 36:34Josh Clark?

  Right, okay.

• 36:34Speaker 04

  I believe all that.

• 36:35Josh Clark?

  Yeah, and again, all of this lands squarely on the desk of Carl Allen, because no one, no one, talked about the Philadelphia Experiment. It was never, those words were never put together until he, his first letter to Morris Jessup, right? So it appears to have been totally fabricated by him.

• 36:56Speaker 04

  Yeah, and after the movie came out, people started coming out of the woodwork.

• 37:00Josh Clark?

  This guy.

• 37:00Speaker 04

  Including a dude named Alfred Byelek.

• 37:04Josh Clark?

  Have you been to his website?

• 37:05Speaker 04

  Oh, yeah, he's, he's something else. He made a, a video called "The Philadelphia Experiment, Part One: Crossroads of History." And he claims that he was a physicist onboard the Eldridge, and he was a part of the team. And not only that, he says he time-traveled in 1943 all the way to 1983 during the experiment to tell his story.

• 37:30Josh Clark?

  That sounds extremely close to the plot of the Philadelphia Experiment movie.

• 37:36Speaker 04

  Yeah, and, and sure.

• 37:38Josh Clark?

  Except it was a little different. In the movie, he travels from 1943 to 1984.

• 37:43Speaker 04

  Ooh.

• 37:44Josh Clark?

  We shouldn't mock this guy. It's a fascinating website.

• 37:48Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 37:49Josh Clark?

  But he puts himself squarely at the, the, the center of the Philadelphia Experiment. And he also says that he was part of the Montauk Project.

• 37:59Speaker 04

  Yeah, which they're sort of tied together somehow.

• 38:01Josh Clark?

  Yeah, well.

• 38:01Speaker 04

  We should do one on that at some point, since we're debunking things.

• 38:04Josh Clark?

  This guy, this guy wrote a book where he just basically made this stuff up out of whole cloth.

• 38:09Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 38:10Josh Clark?

  He says that the book, whether you take it as science fact or science fiction, you're in for a really great story, even though it's, it's basically loaded with soft facts. This is the author in the preface, right?

• 38:21Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 38:21Josh Clark?

  But basically, it's this extension, that like, the, the Philadelphia Experiment was wildly successful. And from that, we learned all sorts of things, like getting in touch with extraterrestrials, being able to teleport everywhere, just doing all sorts of really interesting things. Basically, anything you can possibly think of that a conspiracy theorist would enjoy.

• 38:40Speaker 04

  Sure.

• 38:41Josh Clark?

  Is crammed into this book, and it's, it's given a bit of gravitas by associating it with the Philadelphia Experiment, you know?

• 38:52Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 38:52Josh Clark?

  In some quarters, man.

• 38:53Speaker 04

  In some quarters.

• 38:54Josh Clark?

  That, that definitely gives some gravitas.

• 38:56Speaker 04

  This green glow has been explained away by most people as maybe an electrical storm or St. Elmo's Fire. And it was just, you know, maybe just another part of this story that people took and ran with it. Or maybe it was nothing at all.

• 39:13Josh Clark?

  Yes, it also could have been, the Office of Naval Research put out a fact sheet on what they understand about the Philadelphia Experiment. And they said, it's possible another origin, or the origin of that specifically, was experiments with the USS Timmerman later on, after the war in the 50s.

• 39:31Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 39:31Josh Clark?

  Where they tried to use a small generator that was higher power than the generator that was currently onboard, and it actually caused coronal discharge, a glow.

• 39:41Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 39:42Josh Clark?

  And they said that no one was injured, no one was enmeshed into the ship.

• 39:46Speaker 04

  No.

• 39:47Josh Clark?

  It was just, a glow was created, which is what you'd expect from a very strong electrical field, right?

• 39:52Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 39:53Josh Clark?

  So they think possibly that, combined with the degossing stuff they were doing during World War II, came together and helped this legend take off. But what they say also, though, and what was supported by this reunion of USS Eldridge sailors in 1999, is that even the guy who debunked and discredited everything that Carlos Ande said, Dudgeon, he was full of it too, apparently. Because the USS Eldridge wasn't in Philadelphia then, it was in Brooklyn.

• 40:28Speaker 04

  Yeah, they got together in Atlantic City, and I read an article on this meeting, and they, they had a good laugh, and said that one of them even has something about it on his license plate, just so people like, ask him about it. And a few of them said they would pull people's legs and say like, "Oh no, I disappeared, and my hand was caught in the ship." And then they would say, "No, none of that happened."

• 40:47Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 40:47Speaker 04

  But they said that it was in Brooklyn, and the ship's log confirms that. So apparently it wasn't even in that shipyard that day, at all.

• 40:56Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 40:57Speaker 04

  So that's, that's the only part where I'm like, "Oh, wait a minute. How could they completely invent that it was even in the shipyard? Why wouldn't they just use a ship that was there?"

• 41:08Josh Clark?

  Because this guy-

• 41:09Speaker 04

  It would give it a little more credence if there was at least a ship there.

• 41:12Josh Clark?

  But that's what I'm saying, like Carl Allen, he made, he said all this. He was the one who just came up with it from the beginning.

• 41:20Speaker 04

  Yeah, but it, I don't know. It just seems a little weird that he, he didn't care at all about making it believable by picking a boat that was actually there.

• 41:28Josh Clark?

  Well, that's what I'm saying. He may have been there at the time. He may have known that the Eldridge was there and just fudged the date because he couldn't remember because this is like 12 years later, 12 or 13 years after the fact. You know what I mean?

• 41:40Speaker 04

  Bad memory.

• 41:41Josh Clark?

  Right. So maybe he just got the date wrong and the thing really did happen and then the ONR would be like, oh, that experiment. Yeah. Oh, yeah. We teleported a battleship. You just got the date wrong.

• 41:51Speaker 04

  So we've mentioned quite a few things here that why this thing has lived on through the years. There, that Jacques Vallée theorizes that, you know, anytime you have like a movie made about it, or any kind of imagery, whether it's a photo of the Loch Ness Monster to a photo of the Montauk Monster, people are gonna have something physical to point to and say, look, they made this movie. And that's when people started coming out of the woodwork was after the movie, saying, oh, yeah, I was there. I remember that now. Michael Perre just reminded me of this thing that happened.

• 42:24Josh Clark?

  He also, my favorite thing on his website is that he met the person that he later realized was the actor Mark Hamill in Hawaii in 1956. But Mark Hamill would have been five at the time.

• 42:37Speaker 04

  Well, did he say he was a little, nice little kid?

• 42:40Josh Clark?

  I don't think he was a kid.

• 42:42Speaker 04

  He said he's a full grown adult. Interesting. What else? The, the fact that it's the, the federal government, of course, and the, and the military, you know, people are gonna run with that stuff.

• 42:54Josh Clark?

  Which, I mean, that's the military's fault. I remember-

• 42:57Speaker 04

  Well, yeah, sure. They did secret experiments, still do.

• 42:59Josh Clark?

  Tons of them. Back in 1993, some stuff got declassified and it really opened people's eyes to the fact that the government and the military experimented on uninformed and unwitting subjects, not just in, in its ranks, but also in the general public.

• 43:17Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 43:18Josh Clark?

  So, yeah, it's totally, the idea that the military would do this with its own people on board-

• 43:26Speaker 04

  Yeah, that's believable.

• 43:27Josh Clark?

  Probably the most believable part of the whole thing.

• 43:28Speaker 04

  Agreed. And also just throw Albert Einstein in there, throw in secret scientific theories that haven't been proven. And it's just ripe for the picking-

• 43:41Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 43:42Speaker 04

  -when it comes to conspiracies.

• 43:43Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 43:44Speaker 04

  And the suicide, of course, like we mentioned earlier.

• 43:47Josh Clark?

  That definitely doesn't help.

• 43:48Speaker 04

  It did not help the case any. But this is one that I, I had a hard time finding people that still believe this.

• 43:55Josh Clark?

  Uh, yeah. I think a lot of people like aren't aware of it even.

• 44:00Speaker 04

  Except for the movie.

• 44:01Josh Clark?

  You know what else helped it get legs? There was a book in 1979, and it was called The Philadelphia Experiment: Project Invisibility. And it was reprinted in, in excerpts in papers around the country as, as fact or nonfiction in 1979.

• 44:21Speaker 04

  Does not help.

• 44:22Josh Clark?

  Doesn't help things, you know?

• 44:24Speaker 04

  I personally, with all conspiracy theories, I just, I enjoy reading this stuff. I think it's fun and funny and interesting. I don't, there aren't any that I really believe in. But I do think it's funny when people get all up on their hackles and write in that, you know, you guys are making fun of this stuff and it's, you know, you don't know. Could be real.

• 44:46Josh Clark?

  Well, that's the other thing, man. I'm glad you brought this up because they're like the, just being like, no, this is not possible. That's stupid. Stop thinking stuff like that. It's like, no, this is, at the very least, people using their imaginations and exercising it in ways that I don't typically do.

• 45:03Speaker 04

  Sure.

• 45:04Josh Clark?

  And so it is nice to come, kind of visit it and check it out and, and read it, you know?

• 45:09Speaker 04

  Yeah, although I claim to have seen a ghost. So what do I know?

• 45:11Josh Clark?

  Exactly. Although, I have to say, probably the best excuse against this, there are two things that just say, just on its face, this isn't right. One, this happened 70 years ago. And if the military successfully transported a battleship, we would know about teleportation by, by now.

• 45:27Speaker 04

  Yeah, they'd be doing it all over the place.

• 45:29Josh Clark?

  Exactly. The second thing was a quote from Robert Gorman, the guy who tracked down Carl Allen, in that 1980 Fate magazine article. He wrote, "If we are to believe Carl Allen, our naval hierarchy abandoned sanity and historical precedent by conducting an experiment of enormous importance in broad daylight using a badly needed destroyer escort vessel."

• 45:49Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 45:50Josh Clark?

  I think that kind of sums it up nicely.

• 45:52Speaker 04

  Agreed.

• 45:53Josh Clark?

  But go forth and read about the Philadelphia Experiment, because it is interesting stuff.

• 45:59Speaker 04

  Watch the movie.

• 46:00Josh Clark?

  Meh.

• 46:01Speaker 04

  Why not? Is it on Netflix?

• 46:04Josh Clark?

  No, it's on YouTube.

• 46:05Speaker 04

  I thought you watched it on YouTube.

• 46:08Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 46:09Speaker 04

  I can't believe you made it through it.

• 46:10Josh Clark?

  I did. I'm telling you, like, I mean, I was working too. I had two like windows open, but-

• 46:16Speaker 04

  Okay, there you go.

• 46:17Josh Clark?

  It was fine.

• 46:19Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 46:20Josh Clark?

  It was fine.

• 46:21Speaker 04

  It's as believable as Tron. That's Josh's review.

• 46:24Josh Clark?

  Uh, let's see. If you want to know more about the Philadelphia Experiment, you don't have anything else, right?

• 46:30Speaker 04

  No, sir.

• 46:31Josh Clark?

  Uh, you can type those words in the search bar at HowStuffWorks. And since Chuck said Tron, it's time for listener mail.

• 46:38Speaker 04

  I'm gonna call this an email from an up and coming podcaster in Georgia Bulldog.

• 46:46Josh Clark?

  Nice.

• 46:47Speaker 04

  "Hey, guys. My name is Bailey. I'm a junior mass media arts and theater student at good old UGA. Go Dogs, Wolf, Wolf. My professional identity aside, I'm also a longtime listener and lover of you guys. I listened to my first episode on the bus home from seventh grade."

• 47:03Josh Clark?

  That's so, wow.

• 47:08Speaker 04

  I'm pretty sure it was an episode on brainwashing. So she's in college now. "I mainly listen to y'all as I'm working on my on-campus job, bus driving. Did you ever take the buses in Athens, the student bus?"

• 47:19Josh Clark?

  I was so crippled with social anxiety that if I couldn't find a parking space, I would just skip class because I didn't want to get on the bus.

• 47:27Speaker 04

  You had social anxiety?

• 47:29Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 47:30Speaker 04

  Really?

• 47:31Josh Clark?

  Mm-hmm.

• 47:32Speaker 04

  Like, didn't want to get to know anyone? Or you just-

• 47:33Josh Clark?

  I just couldn't bear being around peers at that age.

• 47:36Speaker 04

  Really?

• 47:37Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 47:38Speaker 04

  Interesting. Uh, the buses were always a little scary because it was like, here's a 40-foot-long bus full of students and it's driven by a 19-year-old-

• 47:47Josh Clark?

  A student.

• 47:48Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 47:49Josh Clark?

  Yeah. Well, it's scary for me for different reasons, but I can imagine it's scary for that reason too.

• 47:53Speaker 04

  Yeah, I took them a few times. I mainly walked. Um, okay, where was I? "Bus driving. So my passengers have the honor of listening to you as well." Oh, I guess she plays it out loud. That's nice.

• 48:04Josh Clark?

  That is nice. That's the party bus right there.

• 48:06Speaker 04

  I guess so. "The other day I was driving, I realized it's my destiny to produce and host a podcast on campus. We don't really have anything like that, so I'm excited about it. My idea is to have me and another host be constants on the show and every week bring in a different UGA professor or Athens professional or general awesome person to talk about the one thing in their field that fascinates them the most for about 30 minutes. It would include informal conversation between the three of us about a topic highly inspired by y'all's witty banter."

• 48:37Josh Clark?

  Nice.

• 48:38Speaker 04

  "Anyway, because you guys are my muses, I would want to, wanted to ask if you had any advice for a baby bulldog podcaster. As an MMA major, I feel like I have the basic knowledge and resources for the technical side, but as far as what makes a good episode, I'm feeling pretty shaky. What is your environment like? How much do you prepare for the actual script? Do you have a specific formula for every episode? I'm fascinated." And that is Bailey Johnson. Uh, you got any advice?

• 49:07Josh Clark?

  I will give you the same advice I would give anybody starting out in podcasting, Bailey. Get good mics. It's worth the expenditure.

• 49:17Speaker 04

  Make it sound good.

• 49:18Josh Clark?

  And-

• 49:19Speaker 04

  They probably have them on campus, I'm imagining.

• 49:21Josh Clark?

  Yeah. I mean, yeah, if you can finagle your way into a studio with good mics.

• 49:24Speaker 04

  Yeah, do it.

• 49:25Josh Clark?

  Yeah. Do whatever you need to do to get that done. And then release on a reliable schedule. That are, those are the two keys to, to begin with. I mean, like, as long as you're releasing on a reliable schedule, people will come to appreciate what you're doing.

• 49:42Speaker 04

  Yeah. And my advice as far as scripting goes is, you know, we've said this a billion times on different interviews, but we don't script stuff out and we don't go over stuff with each other. We just do our own research and try and have as natural a conversation as possible, which I think has helped our show out. That's not to say that you need to do that.

• 50:00Josh Clark?

  No.

• 50:01Speaker 04

  But I think being relatable and conversational helps, rather than feeling like you're being read a script. I don't know a lot of people that would be as into that. So my advice would be try to make it conversational. You know, maybe go over it with whoever your co-host is some at first.

• 50:20Josh Clark?

  She's a theater major, right?

• 50:21Speaker 04

  Yeah, you should be pretty good at this stuff already.

• 50:23Josh Clark?

  So, yeah, I'm sure she's good at ed libbing. She probably finds comfort in the idea of a script. I don't think there's anything wrong with starting out trying that, but if it doesn't feel right or you're not getting good feedback about it, then try, try something else.

• 50:36Speaker 04

  Yeah, my, I guess I would say maybe try like, instead of a script, try like an outline that you share with each other.

• 50:43Josh Clark?

  The poor man's script.

• 50:44Speaker 04

  Yeah. So you've got a little roadmap ahead of you and we kind of just, we've been doing this for so long, we don't need that.

• 50:51Josh Clark?

  We don't need an outline.

• 50:52Speaker 04

  But we have our own roadmap that we share via our brainwaves.

• 50:57Josh Clark?

  Yes. Roadmap to the White House.

• 51:00Speaker 04

  It's just not written down.

• 51:01Josh Clark?

  2016.

• 51:02Speaker 04

  So those are our points of advice. We don't have a specific formula. We just try to talk about things that we find interesting.

• 51:10Josh Clark?

  That's, I think that's a key too, man.

• 51:12Speaker 04

  Yeah, be into what your own topic is because that'll show for sure.

• 51:15Josh Clark?

  Yeah. Although, we've also found that like, just about everything is interesting if you dig hard enough. Everything has a story.

• 51:23Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 51:24Josh Clark?

  So if something's like really boring you, maybe abandon it, but you can also try digging harder.

• 51:29Speaker 04

  Agreed. So, good luck, Bailey. Send us a link when that's up and we'll plug it for you. And-

• 51:35Josh Clark?

  And since you're doing an interview show, your goal should be with each interview to make that person cry.

• 51:41Speaker 04

  You know what, Bailey, I'll even be on your show if you want.

• 51:44Josh Clark?

  Whoa. Ooh. Nice truck.

• 51:48Speaker 04

  Yeah, I'll do that. If you get it up and running and you need somebody, I'd be happy to sit in.

• 51:52Josh Clark?

  That is so nice.

• 51:53Speaker 04

  Why not?

• 51:55Josh Clark?

  I will too, if you want.

• 51:56Speaker 04

  I don't know if I'll go to Athens.

• 51:58Josh Clark?

  Uh, yeah.

• 51:59Speaker 04

  Not that I don't like to, but it might just be easier to do it on the phone.

• 52:03Josh Clark?

  Okay.

• 52:03Speaker 04

  We'll see.

• 52:04Josh Clark?

  Bailey, he's laid it out there for you. Get in touch.

• 52:07Speaker 04

  Uh, all right, Bailey, good luck. Class of seventeen, that's crazy.

• 52:11Josh Clark?

  Yep, who started listening in seventh grade.

• 52:13Speaker 04

  Goodness me.

• 52:14Josh Clark?

  Uh, if you want to get in touch with Chuckery, uh, Chuckery me, yeah, Chuckery me.

• 52:20Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 52:20Josh Clark?

  Uh, you can tweet to us at S Y S K podcast. You can join us on Facebook dot com slash Stuff You Should Know. You can send us an email to [email protected]. And as always, join us at our home on the web, stuffyoushouldknow.com.

• 52:54Josh Clark?

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• 53:29Speaker 05

  Welcome to the Haunted Library. Have you come in search of a tale? This podcast invites you to browse the shelves and find stories that will linger long after you've left this place. From Gothic masterpieces to poppy penny dreadfuls, join me, Colin Morgan, with new episodes twice a week. Find the Haunted Library wherever you get your podcasts.

• 53:56Speaker 03

  How do you know that Claude won't become manipulative? This is a constant worry. And you can actually catch the model thinking, I think X is actually true, but I'm going to tell the user Y. I'm Walter Isaacson. On my new podcast, The Builders, I'm going inside the minds of the people shaping our future. Listen to The Builders starting October 13th on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 54:25Speaker 07

  This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed human.