ON ADDICTION... With Mae Martin and Marian Keyes

Welcome back to this How to Fail special where we revisit conversations from the archive to highlight particular themes and tap into the wisdom they contain. Each week, I select moments that can offer perspective, comfort and encouragement for whatever you might be going through. Since September is National Recovery Month, we’re exploring the theme of addiction. First, we hear from comedian, writer and actor Mae Martin, who joined me in April this year. They spoke candidly about their experiences with addiction and recovery. Their honesty and humour shine through, reminding us that vulnerability can be a powerful force for change. Then we hear from bestselling author Marian Keyes, who came on HTF just before lockdown, in February 2020. She shares her own journey with addiction and sobriety - her warmth and insight offer reassurance that recovery is possible and that life after addiction can be full of meaning and joy. I hope this episode provides understanding, solidarity and light to anyone who may be struggling or supporting someone they love. Listen to Mae Martin’s full episode of How to Fail here: https://link.chtbl.com/F50L9kqQ Listen to Marian Keyes’ full episode of How to Fail here: https://link.chtbl.com/qHVhGxfP 🔗 LINKS + MENTIONS: Dr Gabor Maté - His episode of How to Fail [https://link.chtbl.com/CDrr2-7_] and Recovery Resources: www.drgabormate.com Mae Martin - linktr.ee/maemartin Elizabeth’s Substack: https://theelizabethday.substack.com/ Join the How To Fail community: https://howtofail.supportingcast.fm/#content 💌 LOVE THIS EPISODE? Subscribe on Spotify, Apple or wherever you get your podcasts Leave a 5⭐ review – it helps more people discover these stories 👋 Follow How To Fail & Elizabeth: Instagram: @howtofailpod @elizabday TikTok: @howtofailpod @elizabday Website: www.elizabethday.org Have a failure you’re trying to work through for Elizabeth to discuss? Click here to get in touch: howtofailpod.com How to Fail is an Elizabeth Day and Sony Music Entertainment Production. Find more great podcasts from Sony Music Entertainment at sonymusic.com/podcasts To bring your brand to life in this podcast, email [email protected] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Elizabeth Day?

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• 0:45Elizabeth Day?

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• 0:57Elizabeth Day?

  One of the things I hear a lot from listeners is how tiring it can be when your mind just doesn't settle. And I can only imagine this feels even heavier with intrusive thoughts. It's that quiet sense of being worn down by something you never asked for and never wanted, but just can't seem to switch off. If you struggle with this, I want to tell you about NoCD, because it's a resource that genuinely helps people. NoCD provides specialised treatment for OCD. And what I appreciate about their approach is how human it feels. You're matched with a licensed therapist trained in ERP therapy. That's Exposure and Response Prevention. And over time, you learn skills that help your OCD symptoms become manageable, so you can live more of the life you want to live.

• 1:42Elizabeth Day?

  If you're struggling with OCD or unrelenting intrusive thoughts, NoCD can help. Book a free 15-minute call to get started at learn.nocd.com/fail.

• 2:03Elizabeth Day?

  Welcome to How to Fail and I am so glad you're here. This week, I'm diving into the How to Fail archive to share some powerful highlights from two of my favourite past guests. These are conversations that I hope will bring you comfort, spark curiosity, or simply remind you that you're not alone. In honour of National Recovery Month, which runs throughout September, I'm revisiting excerpts from episodes with May Martin and Marian Keyes, two brave and brilliant people who have both experienced addiction in different forms. First up is comedian May Martin, who was drawn from their personal journey with addiction to create compelling stand-up and storytelling.

• 2:46Elizabeth Day?

  In this clip, May reflects on the nature of addiction, describing it not as a single substance or behaviour, but as anything you crave and do compulsively despite the negative consequences. Then we'll hear from Marian Keyes, the much-loved author who, in her twenties, developed alcoholism and clinical depression. In this clip, she talks about how alcohol was her best friend, that her relationship with it was enmeshed with who she was as a person. But when she eventually found the strength to come out of that dependent relationship, Marian felt hopeful. She could once again see the wonder of the world and she felt free.

• 3:28Elizabeth Day?

  These conversations are honest, deeply human, and ultimately, hopeful. Let's dive in.

• 3:37Elizabeth Day?

  Given your history with substance abuse...

• 3:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:41Elizabeth Day?

  Are you medicated for ADHD? Or is that something that...

• 3:45Speaker 01

  I am a bit, yeah. I am a bit, and it's been pretty life-changing.

• 3:49Elizabeth Day?

  Yeah.

• 3:50Speaker 01

  And in a way, it's kind of eradicated any lingering urge to seek out a stimulant because it's really measured. And yeah, that that part of my brain is satisfied, I guess.

• 4:06Elizabeth Day?

  Right.

• 4:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 4:06Elizabeth Day?

  And escape rooms.

• 4:07Speaker 01

  But I'm wary of it. I know it's easy to become dependent on it. And I definitely know people, especially in the States, who are really overmedicated. And yeah, so I'm careful with it.

• 4:17Elizabeth Day?

  Well, I know that the definition of addiction you prefer is the Gabor Maté.

• 4:21Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 4:21Elizabeth Day?

  Former guest on How to Fail.

• 4:23Speaker 01

  Was he?

• 4:23Elizabeth Day?

  Yes.

• 4:23Speaker 01

  What a guy.

• 4:24Elizabeth Day?

  I know. Incredible.

• 4:26Speaker 01

  Sonorous voice. And he's a real presence, isn't he?

• 4:29Elizabeth Day?

  Yes.

• 4:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 4:30Elizabeth Day?

  Would you mind reminding us what that definition is?

• 4:32Speaker 01

  Sure, if I can remember it. Well, he says an addiction is anything that you you crave, and you do compulsively despite it having negative consequences. So it's about that, those negative consequences in your life. Yeah.

• 4:50Elizabeth Day?

  And I think he and he also says that it's very often.

• 4:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, please.

• 4:53Elizabeth Day?

  No, no, that's totally spot on.

• 4:54Speaker 01

  Oh, is it?

• 4:55Elizabeth Day?

  Because given everything we've been talking about, he also says it's it can be a trauma response.

• 4:58Speaker 01

  Right.

• 4:59Elizabeth Day?

  Yeah.

• 4:59Speaker 01

  I'm sure. Yeah. I mean, yeah. And he, his work has been so mind expanding for me because it was the first time that I've connected other addictive behaviors in my life. And I really thought that addiction was just something that drug addicts had, and it was all to do with these very addictive substances. And, you know, that once you're hooked, you're hooked. And then when I broaden the definition and thought about, you know, relationships, and so many of us have had that experience where you know someone's bad for you, or that you're not happy, but you you can't stop fighting for it to, you know, or texting them, or our phones, or all these self soothing behaviors

• 5:42Speaker 01

  that we all do. That was really helpful for me to to see that and notice it in other areas and take a more holistic look at my life.

• 5:51Elizabeth Day?

  You use a lot of this hard won wisdom in Feel Good.

• 5:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 5:56Elizabeth Day?

  Which I loved.

• 5:58Speaker 01

  Thanks.

• 5:59Elizabeth Day?

  I know so many people who listen are huge fans of it as well.

• 6:02Speaker 01

  Oh, great.

• 6:03Elizabeth Day?

  And there's one scene that always sticks in my mind and makes me laugh still thinking about it.

• 6:07Speaker 01

  Hit me.

• 6:07Elizabeth Day?

  Where the character has gone to an N A meeting.

• 6:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:13Elizabeth Day?

  Decided it's not for them.

• 6:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:15Elizabeth Day?

  And then goes with someone who becomes their sponsor to a coffee shop.

• 6:20Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 6:21Elizabeth Day?

  And it's just such a tiny thing, but in the backdrop, you see at the end of the scene, there's like 800 coffee cups.

• 6:26Speaker 01

  Thank you for noticing that.

• 6:28Elizabeth Day?

  I loved it so much.

• 6:29Speaker 01

  That's so nice. Oh, thanks for noticing.

• 6:31Elizabeth Day?

  I suppose I had a question about Feel Good, which is how much co-creating that with Joe Hampton was helpful to you in discovering yourself?

• 6:43Speaker 01

  So much of it. And well, similar to the album, maybe writing that first season, I'd never made television. I'd never acted before.

• 6:54Speaker 01

  And so I wrote it not worrying about any of that and not thinking, oh, I'll have to actually act these scenes. I just wrote it not knowing what it'd be like. And then it was quite harrowing in a really rewarding way, but it was so personal.

• 7:09Speaker 01

  And so, yeah, it was definitely therapeutic and I was sort of writing this character of myself who was really struggling with gender identity and things like that. And then the first season ended and we knew we were doing the second season that would be the last season. And we knew, okay, we've got to tie this up. And so I guess the character should come to some conclusion about who they are and their addiction. And then that made me have to really introspect and think, okay, yeah, well, how do I feel? Yeah, I was really figuring it out in real time.

• 7:43Elizabeth Day?

  And the interesting thing is, is that I know that in TV you are constantly encouraged to have a satisfying narrative arc with a very definite end point.

• 7:53Speaker 01

  Right.

• 7:54Elizabeth Day?

  But of course, that is not your life.

• 7:55Speaker 01

  No, I wish it was to tie everything up neatly like that.

• 8:00Elizabeth Day?

  Yeah. The thing that did change was the pronouns of the character between the first and the second season.

• 8:05Speaker 01

  Yeah. And again, literally in real time, telling the crew on set, I actually, that would be nice if you guys would, like, it was really happening. And I was so lucky to be making it with Charlotte Ritchie, who is a friend, and she was just so, such an amazing support emotionally, in a way that she probably shouldn't have had to be, you know, just as a co-star. But she was, we did a lot of talking and processing and it was really, really nice.

• 8:35Elizabeth Day?

  I mentioned in the introduction that quote where you said you wouldn't have your twenties back for all the money in the universe.

• 8:41Speaker 02

  No.

• 8:41Elizabeth Day?

  What was happening in your twenties after you were rejected from journalism college? What then happened?

• 8:46Speaker 02

  Oh, well, the thing about that failure was I found it very humiliating. Would it be hubris? Is that the word? I felt that I had been hubristic in thinking that I would be good enough to get into journalism college. And so I shut down everything. I shut down all ambition in myself, career-wise. I became very in-the-day, not in a good way, short-termist about everything. I kind of gave up. Alcohol had been a great friend to me from early teens, and it just became, you know, a better and a better friend. And I was in a job where my boss was very, very kind to me, like, she took care of me.

• 9:30Speaker 02

  And I was overqualified for that job. And I stayed there because I felt I would never be able to quote better myself anyway. So I drank. I drank and I drove down cul-de-sacs and I had relationships with men who endorsed my own sense of self-loathing. I was hopeless with money, but at the same time, I was always holding out hope that something magical would happen. I mean, an awful lot of it was hung on a man, that this fabulous man would arrive and he'd make everything okay. He would polyfilla in all my lacune, is that the word?

• 10:13Elizabeth Day?

  Yeah.

• 10:13Speaker 02

  And he'd fix up all my wonky, broken bits and I don't know, that maybe I wouldn't need to work or that I could have babies and and that I could be a good mother and that that could be my life. It was just like treading water or being on a treadmill going nowhere, cycling a stationary bike. That's what I was doing, except I wasn't, except because everything was getting worse. And I don't know, but a year and a half before I finally had to stop drinking. My drinking moved from a worry to, it was obviously alcoholic to everyone except me. I felt very depressed and I felt very hopeless. And I was so grateful to alcohol because I thought, my God,

• 10:58Speaker 02

  this is helping me because I am so unhappy. And how would I manage if this was taken from me? And any addiction is progressive, like it gets worse and I continue to normalise the abnormal. I ran out of road and it was the best thing that could have happened to me. But it was like a waste of eight years, although, no, I mean, it wasn't.

• 11:25Elizabeth Day?

  Because you had to get to the end of the road.

• 11:26Speaker 02

  I did, you know, like that thing about hitting rock bottom. Like, I wouldn't have stopped if it hadn't been unavoidably, undeniably horrific. And it was.

• 11:38Elizabeth Day?

  What was the end of the road for you?

• 11:41Speaker 02

  You know, tho- those things they say, like slowly, slowly than all at once. I woke up one Monday morning and I was due to go to work and the depression that goes with heavy drinking is hardly a surprise, considering that alcohol is a powerful depressant. But I woke up and I thought, I cannot go on like this. And alcoholics or addicts who decide to get help, they often talk about

• 12:06Speaker 02

  A kind of a jumping off point where you realise you cannot carry on as you are. But the idea of living without the substance, whether it's alcohol or whatever, that it's. Well, I was in this paralysed, powerless, terrified state. I was on antidepressants and I was on sleeping tablets and I took them all. And I don't think, I didn't want to die, I wanted help. Like, I wanted somebody to come along and sort of helicopter me out of it. And that is sort of what happened. I was living in London, my parents were in Dublin. They had some sense of how bad things were, but my flatmate, who was still my really good friend, kept it from them, as did my work colleagues.

• 12:50Speaker 02

  But by trying to kill myself, no matter how half-hearted it was, it kind of forced me into a point where I could no longer pretend that I was okay. And that got me into a rehab place. But even when I was going in there, I thought I was really depressed. I had heard that it was a really tough place. And I said, this is excellent, because I thought whatever was wrong with me was kind of depression or it was that I needed to have therapy and some sort of trauma would be identified. And then it could be sort of plucked out of me and then I'd be fine. And then I could go back and I'd be a normal person who could manage life and I could drink normally. Jesus, I was delusional, but like, that is part of the whole illness.

• 13:35Speaker 02

  And I was just very lucky that like, I went there and very quickly it dawned on me like, the only thing that's wrong with me is that I'm an alcoholic. And the only way I'll ever be okay is if I stop. And it was a clear revelation. But I was also, I was heartbroken because this had been my best friend. I don't say it so much anymore because I have a different love of my life now. But it was the love of my life. It was my best friend. It took away my pain, it took away my fear. It took away my sorrow and my heartbreak at my empty life and like my loneliness.

• 14:15Speaker 02

  The thought of being without it, like I grieved it, like the way you would grieve a lover or a person who died. It's a very powerful relationship addiction. It's incredibly. Enmeshed and passionate, well, mine was, it's like having a dysfunctional relationship with an abusive person. I knew what I had to do and very quickly I became hopeful. Like my feelings changed really quickly and I suppose I was lucky. I think a lot of people who don't get that kind of immediate lift might relapse. But just because I wasn't pouring this powerful chemical into me any longer,

• 14:55Speaker 02

  my mood changed and I felt, you know, I could see the wonder of the world, which had seemed like it was misty and ashy and shrouded in grey for so long. And I had hope that I could have a life which was more like the lives other normal people had. I feel so lucky. I feel incredibly lucky.

• 15:23Elizabeth Day?

  I feel incredibly lucky that you have the words to express what you went through with such beauty and eloquence. And I know that that will be enormously helpful for so many people listening.

• 15:34Speaker 02

  I hope, I hope, because it's such a hopeless condition, addiction, you know, and that feeling that every door is locked, that you're trapped in this underground room. It is possible to recover, like it is possible. And really and truly, for me, it was my waking thought. It was all about how I could drink, you know, where I would get it, how I got the money for it. Like, it was everything to me. I can be out now, I can go to parties, I can be at dinner with people, people can drink. I am like almost literally blind to alcohol, which the freedom I've been given. You know, when I was such a prisoner and now I really can, I don't care.

• 16:15Speaker 02

  If I accidentally smell somebody else's wine, I feel, oh my God, no, get it away from me. It's like horrible stuff. Like, all it made me feel was miserable for years and years.

• 16:29Elizabeth Day?

  Please do follow How To Fail to get new episodes as they land on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts. Please tell all your friends. This is an Elizabeth Day and Sony Music Entertainment original podcast. Thank you so much for listening.