The Ten Commandments

Did Moses really receive the Ten Commandments on Mount Sinai, or is that just ancient legend? Tristan Hughes is joined by Dr. Dylan Johnson to unpack how the Book of Exodus disagrees with Deuteronomy, what “do not take God’s name in vain” really meant, and how these commands blurred law and morality for ancient peoples. MORE The Ark of the Covenant Listen on Apple https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-ark-of-the-covenant/id1520403988?i=1000659406495 Listen on Spotify https://open.spotify.com/episode/74y1JdV8UmePJzD4TjvUK4 Moses & The Exodus Listen on Apple https://podcasts.apple.com/md/podcast/moses-the-exodus/id1520403988?i=1000658678416 Listen on Spotify https://open.spotify.com/episode/7ET1ixWEqsKpCkHqy2SvyK Watch this episode on our NEW YouTube channel: @TheAncientsPodcast https://www.youtube.com/@TheAncientsPodcast Presented by Tristan Hughes. Audio editor is Aidan Lonergan. The producer is Joseph Knight. The senior producer is Anne-Marie Luff. All music courtesy of Epidemic Sounds The Ancients is a History Hit podcast. Sign up to History Hit for hundreds of hours of original documentaries, with a new release every week. Sign up at https://www.historyhit.com/subscribe. You can take part in our listener survey here https://insights.historyhit.com/history-hit-podcast-always-on: https://insights.historyhit.com/history-hit-podcast-always-on Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

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• 0:00Tristan Hughes?

  Ever wondered why the Romans were defeated in the Teutoburg Forest? What secrets lie buried in prehistoric Ireland? Or what made Alexander truly great? With a subscription to History Hit, you can explore our ancient past alongside the world's leading historians and archaeologists. You'll also unlock hundreds of hours of original documentaries with a brand new release every single week, covering everything from the ancient world to World War II. Just visit historyhit.com/subscribe.

• 0:32Speaker 01

  Hey, we're Nick and Jack, hosts of The Best One Yet. Behind every episode, there's research, emails, spreadsheets, and our shared Google Doc, the Headline Hammer. With Google Workspace with Gemini, Google's AI is built right into the premium versions of tools we already use, like Gmail, Docs, and Sheets. No new tools or extra logins, just personalized AI for the way we work. That means less time on the work around the work and more time finding the stories worth talking about. Get AI tools for work. Upgrade to Google Workspace with Gemini at goo.gle/workspacewithGemini. That's goo.gle/workspacewithGemini.

• 1:07Tristan Hughes?

  Hello, I hope you're doing well. I'm all good here. I'm slightly cold as I walk through my nearby park for my lunch break, but it is nearing Christmas, so I cannot complain. Today's episode, we are going back to the Old Testament, and we're exploring the story, the topic of the Ten Commandments. We've all heard of the Ten Commandments, but what exactly are they? One of my favorite parts of this chat was actually going through them one by one with our guest, our returning guest, the wonderful Dr. Dylan Johnson, a lecturer in ancient Near Eastern history at the University of Cardiff. Dylan, he's been on before to talk through other Old Testament topics like Sodom and Gomorrah and the Ark of the Covenant. He's a lovely guy and a fantastic speaker.

• 1:51Tristan Hughes?

  He came into our recording studio in London. We filmed it as well, so it will also be available on our Ancient's YouTube channel. I really do hope you enjoy. Let's go.

• 2:12Tristan Hughes?

  The Ten Commandments, the bedrock, the famous stone tablets given to Moses on Mount Sinai. This instruction set, written on stone to be housed in the legendary Ark of the Covenant, still forms the basis of so much of our own legal and moral code today. We know the biblical story intimately. The golden calf, the shattered stone, the covenant forged in the desert after the exodus from Egypt. But the question is not about faith. The question today is about history. Do we have any archaeological evidence of the Ten Commandments? What are the Ten Commandments supposed to be? Are they just traditional prohibitives? Are they a law code? Are they a constitution?

• 2:58Tristan Hughes?

  To answer these questions and explore the complex history of one of the world's most famous texts, I am joined by historian, biblical scholar and expert in the ancient Near East, Dr Dylan Johnson.

• 3:13Tristan Hughes?

  Dylan, it is such a pleasure to have you back on the podcast today.

• 3:16Speaker 02

  It's very great to be back, thank you.

• 3:17Tristan Hughes?

  And to talk about the Ten Commandments, I mean, these are, I don't want to say laws, but the messages of them are still so important today in the world that we live.

• 3:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly. I mean, just look across media today about all of these movements to try and have the Ten Commandments placed in front of political buildings, in schools. They are a symbol, representing something that has to do with identity, but also with an ethical or legalistic code. They exist somewhere in between morality and law.

• 3:48Tristan Hughes?

  Because morality, it seems to very much shaped how we generally view morality today, isn't it? Like things like thou shalt not kill and the like. And you have those origins of that with these commandments.

• 3:59Speaker 02

  Exactly. So that's the fundamental debate between law and ethics is, is law simply an outgrowth of ethics? Is ethics a component of law? I suppose you could say the difference between a law and an ethical proclamation is thou shalt not kill is different from you shall not commit first degree murder and here's the punishment for what happens when you do.

• 4:19Tristan Hughes?

  In regards to the story of the Ten Commandments, we'll go through the biblical narrative first and then explore a bit more of the various components of it and how it fits into the Near Eastern world of the time, because it is an amazing story when you do delve into those details and you explore the relationships between the people who were talking about these laws more than 2,000 years ago and the various civilizations that existed at the time.

• 4:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly, and I think context is really important and often lost in most debates about the Ten Commandments, because as moral exertions, they speak to people today, but it helps us a lot to understand what they are by understanding the cultures, societies, and contexts from which it emerges.

• 5:00Tristan Hughes?

  Right, Dylan, let's set the scene, the story of the Ten Commandments, what is the biblical narrative, where are we going in the Old Testament?

• 5:09Speaker 02

  Well, we can actually go to two places, because they appear twice, almost verbatim, not quite, but they appear in part of Exodus in chapter 20, and then they appear again in a part of the Book of Deuteronomy in chapter 5, but maybe we'll start with the first narrative encounter, which is in Exodus.

• 5:26Tristan Hughes?

  That's the second book, isn't it?

• 5:28Speaker 02

  That's the second book of the Bible, so Genesis, story of creation and the patriarchs, Exodus, Moses's story, so as you can imagine, since we're in Moses's story, the Ten Commandments are very closely connected to the figure of Moses, who we've talked about before. In the narrative context of Exodus, then, we are at a stage when the Israelites have left Egypt, so the 12 plagues have occurred, they've made it across the Red Sea and now

• 5:55Tristan Hughes?

  Parting the Red Sea.

• 5:56Speaker 02

  Parting the Red Sea, they're now in the desert, where, somewhere in the Sinai Peninsula, we believe, or at least that's where the narrative places us, and at the foot of a mountain, and this mountain actually has two names in biblical tradition, one is Mount Sinai, hence the name of the desert in which they are in, but in other contexts, it's referred to as Mount Horeb, but we assume two names for essentially the same place, and what's important about this mountain is this is the theophanic mountain, the mountain where God resides. And in no uncertain terms, we're told that Yahweh, the God of Israel, is up on this mountain. And we know this because it's surrounded by smoke and cloud and fire. So

• 6:40Speaker 02

  we don't get a description of an anthropomorphic deity, but whatever form the God of Israel takes is obscured up there by this. But this becomes very important because eventually Moses is going to go up.

• 6:52Tristan Hughes?

  Is it a bit like the burning bush story earlier, where Moses talks to God through that burning bush idea?

• 6:58Speaker 02

  Very much. So in the same kind of sense that whatever form this formless God assumes, the narrative is very careful not to describe it in too, too much detail, though we get a little bit of detail about God's body a little bit later in Exodus. But specifically here, it's this really theophanic smoke and fire obscures that. Because again, as we'll get into, you're not supposed to know what the image of God looked like. It's one of the 10 commandments.

• 7:24Tristan Hughes?

  So Moses and his followers are in the desert, and then they reach this mountain. So what's the story of Moses then going up this mountain to meet and talk with God?

• 7:35Speaker 02

  So Moses is summoned up the mountain, essentially a call. He's a prophet. He is the prophet among prophets, uniquely able to speak to God face to face. So this is very, very important because really no other human being is permitted this direct access to the deity. Even the high priest doesn't get this kind of access. And in fact, at the end of Deuteronomy, when Moses is about to die, he's remembered for this as the prophet among prophets, who spoke to God face to face. And they're referring to this episode, but also the burning bush, where Moses ascends the mountain, and there he encounters the deity, this deity who has elected him or selected him for leadership of the people.

• 8:17Speaker 02

  And what is told to Moses is these 10 prescriptions or proscriptions, however you want to decide them, define them. Based on how the Israelites ought to live their lives in very broad strokes. And what's really critical in this context is this is not only just communicated verbally to Moses, but actually in written form. And these are the only texts, with the exception of some strange, a bodyless handwriting upon the wall.

• 8:49Tristan Hughes?

  Ah, Ba'at Shazar, yes.

• 8:50Speaker 02

  Ba'at Shazar. But this is the only substantial bit of writing attributed to God himself. And in fact, the text says that that God writes the Ten Commandments with his finger on two tablets of stone. And these are what are given to to Moses. And so there's a couple of things to to highlight there. Number one is that even in the narrative context, that the Ten Commandments are considered as textual unit. And not only are they special in the fact that they are divine, divinely written parts of scripture, really the only divinely written parts of scripture, but they're on a very material form of media in the form of these stone tablets. All the rest of the biblical story, which is never really described, is presumed to have just been transmitted on scrolls, on scroll media.

• 9:34Speaker 02

  But these are very specific in the materiality of the content. And so the narrative goes, Moses receives these tablets, descends only to find the Israelites basically violating some of the major tenets.

• 9:46Tristan Hughes?

  It doesn't go well at this time, does it? So whilst he's been away, the Israelites have, they've not been loyal to what he wanted.

• 9:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, and this is, this is kind of the debate. What exactly are the Israelites doing? So the, so the narrative says that under the guidance of Aaron, who's Moses's brother and suspiciously avoids blame in this scenario, had encouraged them to melt down the gold which they'd brought with them from Egypt and create a calf, a representation of some kind of deity, which we'll get into, is one of the things that the Ten Commandments prohibits. And there's been a lot of debate among scholars about, well, what is that calf supposed to depict? Is it a foreign deity? Or is it a depiction of Yahweh himself? And those are two different questions. And in fact, are covered by two different laws in the Ten Commandments. The exclusive worship of Yahweh being one and the use of idols, icons and images being another.

• 10:37Tristan Hughes?

  Do you think that's supposed to be a throwback to their time in ancient Egypt and all the animal gods that you associate with that culture?

• 10:43Speaker 02

  No, I think it's a throw forward to the ways that they would worship Yahweh in Israel. Especially ways that they would worship Yahweh outside of Jerusalem, in places like Bethel and Dan, places associated with the northern kingdom. Because we have very obvious intertextual parallels. When Aaron exclaims, see Israel, here are your gods. The first king of the northern kingdom of Israel, whose name is Jeroboam, says the exact same thing. And so this is a, this is a very subtle critique of the way that they worship Yahweh in places that weren't Jerusalem. Retrojected into the distant past.

• 11:18Tristan Hughes?

  But does that mean actually there were places like later on, as you said, that this is trying to point to where Yahweh, where God was worshipped in an animal form, in an animal statue kind of thing? Is that the idea?

• 11:29Speaker 02

  We presume so. There's plenty of biblical passages that talk about Yahweh as the bull. In fact, it's one of the associated images that, that we get in textual form. And we find cast bovine images all over Israel and Judah and Palestine and these places. And the biblical text tells us that at these major cult centers in the north, that's exactly how Yahweh was worshipped. So again, this kind of episode within a bigger episode is tied to normative religious practices of Israel being rejected in certain respects.

• 12:02Tristan Hughes?

  So interesting because once again, that hints at like the historical context as well. And I had no idea that actually there is this evidence of God being worshipped in some communities in the form of a bull, which is fascinating. But let's go back to the story. So Moses descends with these tablets that are written by Yahweh, by God. And then he sees the golden calf. He's not happy.

• 12:22Speaker 02

  No, so he, he's, he's very despondent by what he sees and he smashes the tablets. So this, what we would imagine being very precious items being smashed. I'll, I'll fast forward the story a little bit. Don't fret, he goes and gets a second copy, thankfully. Otherwise, we wouldn't have the Ten Commandments, they would have been smashed. But because of the idolatry, if you wanted to find it as such, of the Israelites, he smashes the first copy of the tablets, only to go back up and get a second copy. And the biblical text is very clear to tell us that. And he wrote exactly the same thing on these two tablets. So there's no discrepancy in the manuscript copies of those tablets.

• 13:04Tristan Hughes?

  And then he brings those down, and so they are inscribed in stone, is that the idea?

• 13:08Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 13:09Tristan Hughes?

  And what are the commandments that are inscribed on these tablets? Shall we go through them? If you're okay to go through them.

• 13:15Speaker 02

  Let's go through them one by one.

• 13:16Tristan Hughes?

  Number one?

• 13:17Speaker 02

  Number one, that's debated.

• 13:20Speaker 02

  So the first one, the way it begins, and we'll circle back to this, the way it begins is, "I am Yahweh, your God, he who brought you out of the land of Egypt." Now, for most traditions, that's just the preamble. But for some, such as in rabbinic tradition and Catholic tradition, that's law number one. That's the first of the Ten Commandments. Recognize that Yahweh is your God. Okay, so that's for some traditions, one, for many traditions, that's just the preamble. Then we move on to 1-2. We'll just stick with one at this stage. And then the next commandment that we encounter is, "You shall have no other gods before me." And the Hebrew here is "lifne," which can be read monotheistically,

• 14:04Speaker 02

  and has for the last two and a half thousand years, that they will not worship any other deity. But it doesn't actually say that.

• 14:10Tristan Hughes?

  Yes, that "lifne," does that mean before, very clearly before?

• 14:13Speaker 02

  I guess, above me in the sense of kind of hierarchy. And so it could be read monotheistically, and as I said, for millennia, it has been read monotheistically. But it doesn't have to be. It simply says that if you are polytheist, you're going to give preference to Yahweh. That's a way to read that text. Okay, so that's an important text, however, because it establishes what we call biblical minnolatry, that if you are an Israelite or a Judaite, you worship Yahweh above all other deities. That's the next one. Which flows fairly naturally into the ban on any kind of icon. So this is, you know... Following right on the episode where they made an icon.

• 14:55Speaker 02

  And it makes very, very clear that these are not to be icons of anything in the heavens above, on the earth below, or in the waters that are underneath the earth, which is maybe a bit peculiar to modern interpreters, but to the ancient minds made perfect sense because you had celestial deities, deities who lived in the sky, sometimes stars, sometimes the sky itself, the sun, the moon. These are deities in the ancient Near East. On earth, you have deities that reside on mountains, you have deities that are rivers. So you have many terrestrial deities. And then they believed that there was a subterranean ocean beneath, beneath the ground. And you have what we call chthonic deities, deities of the underworld and deities associated with this water.

• 15:38Speaker 02

  And so the prohibitionist said, don't worship or don't make images of any of these types of deities. So it's a very all encompassing prohibition.

• 15:46Tristan Hughes?

  Is that probably also, I'm just thinking of the Book of the Dead, for instance, from ancient Egypt, and they're on a river, aren't they, onto the afterlife? So that, once again, you see that parallel through different cultures of this, you know, this river associated with the afterlife slash the underworld.

• 16:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's, it's a river, or maybe it's an ocean. In Mesopotamia, we have, we have the Apseu, which is this subterranean sweet water ocean, probably from encounters with, with underground springs. But, but in any case, when, when the Bible describes the underworld, which isn't very often, they call it sheol, and it seems to be at sometimes a wet place, but other times not. So we don't get a very clear image.

• 16:22Tristan Hughes?

  Not a fiery place, or was that?

• 16:24Speaker 02

  Not a fiery place, yes. That comes later with, with Greek and, and second temple Judaism, when they start to think of it as Gehenna, this place of fire, damnation and punishment. We're not there yet in the history of religion.

• 16:35Tristan Hughes?

  So that's the one, so you shall not make for yourself, oh, got the texted. Make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above, or on the earth beneath, or in the waters below. So that's that one.

• 16:45Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 16:45Tristan Hughes?

  And so what's the next one?

• 16:46Speaker 02

  So the next one, and you're gonna have to help me a little bit here, because I don't have it memorized.

• 16:51Tristan Hughes?

  Well, it says, "You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God."

• 16:55Speaker 02

  Right.

• 16:55Tristan Hughes?

  "For the Lord will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name."

• 16:59Speaker 02

  Right.

• 16:59Tristan Hughes?

  It's quite difficult today, I must admit.

• 17:01Speaker 02

  Exactly. So if my grandmother were to interpret that biblical text, she would say, "Don't say Jesus Christ as an expletive or some kind of shout." Of course, that's not what ancient Israelites were thinking. And in fact, we don't, we don't know for sure what that prohibition is saying because the, the language is a bit difficult. It says, "You shall not raise up my name for," in a Hebrew word, "shavah," which means emptiness, idleness, folly, which doesn't really encapsulate how it's typically translated. King James translated it, "Take my name in vain," but no one really knows what that means either. Our best guess is it probably refers to oaths, that the way that you swore oaths in the ancient

• 17:46Speaker 02

  world was either by the name of a god or the name of the king. And so by saying, "Don't raise up my name in vain," which basically means, "Don't break your oaths that you swear by me." So that's the best interpretation we have. Later reception takes us to mean, "Don't even say the name of God," because God has a proper name. You can call him God, or Hashem, or other Adonai, the Lord, but the name Yahweh, you will not pronounce. So that's an interpretation based on that text and a couple of others.

• 18:16Tristan Hughes?

  Because nowadays, you would link it straight away with blasphemy, or just saying the name Jesus, or, "Oh, my God," or some of that in a, in a context today. So it's really interesting to see the difference between now and, you know, back in ancient times.

• 18:28Speaker 02

  And I should clarify, it's, it's distinctively not blasphemy, because they have a word to blaspheme, and they have other ways of expressing it, like cursing the name of God. That's not what's being said here. What's being said here is, "Don't raise up the name for idleness or emptiness. Don't take it too lightly," is what it really says.

• 18:52Speaker 01

  Hey, we're Nick and Jack, hosts of The Best One Yet. Behind every episode, there's research, emails, spreadsheets, and our shared Google Doc, the headline hammer. With Google Workspace with Gemini, Google's AI is built right into the premium versions of tools we already use, like Gmail, Docs, and Sheets. No new tools or extra logins, just personalized AI for the way we work. That means less time on the work, around the work, and more time finding the stories worth talking about. Get AI tools for work. Upgrade to Google Workspace with Gemini at goo.gle/workspacewithGemini. That's goo.gle/workspacewithGemini.

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• 20:27Tristan Hughes?

  The next one's also very interesting and one I think I'm also a bit guilty of. Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. Like, six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God. So don't do any work on the Sunday, I guess is what we think.

• 20:41Speaker 02

  But there you're reading Deuteronomy by saying remember.

• 20:44Tristan Hughes?

  Ah, okay, okay.

• 20:45Speaker 02

  Because in Exodus, it says, keep or guard. And this is one of the big differences between the Exodus version of the Ten Commandments and the Deuteronomy version. So Deuteronomy says, remember the Sabbath day, different verb, whereas Exodus says, keep the Sabbath day, so guard it, observe it. And there might be some significance in that single verb interchange. Now, of course, they're both saying essentially the same thing, which is, the seventh day is meant to be kept sacrosanct, you're not supposed to work. And this is one of the few other places where there's fundamental divergence in the two accounts of the Decalogue, which I should explain is another way that we talk about the Ten Commandments. Decalogue, just meaning ten words.

• 21:25Tristan Hughes?

  Yeah, Decalogos, okay.

• 21:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, which is just a translation of the Hebrew Devarim, Sarim, so ten words. Because in Exodus, why do we keep the Sabbath? And they explain, you know, that not only you, but your wives, your children, and your slaves all should keep the Sabbath because in six days, God created the heavens and the earth, and in the seventh he rested. And so in emulation of creation, that's why we keep the Sabbath day, according to Exodus. According to Deuteronomy, we keep the Sabbath day because I, the Lord your God, brought you out of the land of Egypt. So in Deuteronomy, you keep the Sabbath because of the Exodus, not because of creation.

• 22:01Tristan Hughes?

  Well, if we want to move on to the next one, it's, I think it's quite a nice one. Honor your father and your mother.

• 22:06Speaker 02

  Right. Again, what does that mean?

• 22:09Tristan Hughes?

  So that you may live long in the land the Lord your God is giving you.

• 22:12Speaker 02

  Yes. So again, so there's the justification, these are moralistic exhortations. Well, why should I do this? Because these good things will happen to you. So again, this is why we're kind of on the liminal edge of law and morality. But again, there's been so much debate on what does that exactly mean to honor your mother and your father? Does that just mean listen to them when they tell you not to do something? Sure. But how is that going to prolong your life on the land? And scholars have gone into depth on that, that verb to honor, what it might mean. And some think it might actually mean look after them in old age. And maybe, based on some parallels with Near Eastern texts,

• 22:54Speaker 02

  observe the ancestral rights that you do, that you owe to them, once, once they're no longer here. And by doing that that way, with their blessings, you'll, you'll endure long on the land, even after you're gone too, because hopefully your children will also honor you.

• 23:07Tristan Hughes?

  It's a bit of a memory thing as well.

• 23:09Speaker 02

  It's a memory thing. And also, we're in a world where there is no social security. So to secure yourself in old age, you really are highly dependent on your children, that you're entirely dependent on them.

• 23:20Tristan Hughes?

  Onto the next one, and this is perhaps the shortest one, or one of the shortest ones. It's either number six or number seven, depending on how you read it. You probably know which one it is. It's quite a, it's a classic one, I think.

• 23:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, thou shalt not kill.

• 23:32Tristan Hughes?

  Well, it says, it says thou shall not murder here.

• 23:34Speaker 02

  Murder, okay.

• 23:35Tristan Hughes?

  It's interesting, like, is there a bit of debate around the wording of that one?

• 23:40Speaker 02

  I think for sure. I mean, there's no shortage of killing words in Hebrew. In fact, they have quite a few. And it's, it's difficult because we're not really in a, in a world where there's a clear criminal justice system. So what's the difference between killing in general and, and murder? It doesn't say anything about premeditation in this law. So, so that's a decision based on the translator there. And it's a decision that's well founded because of course, you're absolutely allowed to kill in, in, in this world. Armies, in fact, not shortly long after this law is given, were told to, you know, put to death soothsayers and diviners and a whole, there's a whole category of people who are, who are explicitly sentenced to death.

• 24:25Speaker 02

  So it can't possibly simply say, don't kill because there's too many contradictions to that basic tenet. So maybe it's a certain type of killing, but the evidence doesn't really play out. If you go and track down that verb, there's legitimate versions of it, there's illegitimate versions of it. So we're just left grasping at straws as usual with, well, what is the actual meaning behind it? And so you can take that in many different ways in both translation, but also especially if you're an adherent to these texts, what does that actually mean in terms of how you live your life?

• 24:59Tristan Hughes?

  Because these are certainly the more blunt and the shorter commandments on the list, aren't they? Because straight away after this, you have the, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony against your neighbor. So that's three more there we have straight away.

• 25:13Speaker 02

  Yeah. And the formulation is very distinctive from what's surrounding it. What's surrounding it, they're much longer and they often have explanations for why you should. These are simply prescribing you, don't do it. And what's interesting, they're not even imperatives in the sense of it's not, don't kill, it's you will not kill. And that's grammatically interesting and also reflects on, well, what does that mean in terms of how this message is being conveyed? It's not a command, it's maybe expressing a wish, which is very different.

• 25:44Tristan Hughes?

  And then the others as well, committing adultery, not stealing, and then the last one, you shall not covet your neighbor's house, you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, or his male or female servant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor. Just stay off what belongs to your neighbor, his property.

• 26:02Speaker 02

  Right. And this is even more difficult because all of the other prohibitions prohibit actions. This is something internal. Don't covet, the verb is hamad, actually the same root from which the name Muhammad comes from, to covet, to prize something. So how are you actually supposed to follow that commandment? Don't wish you had the same car as your neighbor? Are you violating that commandment by even feeling that emotion? But how are you supposed to not feel emotions? And why is that supposed to be prohibited? So this has also generated a whole slew of scholarship, both in theological settings, in ethics, and in historical critical study. And we don't have an answer to give you.

• 26:45Speaker 02

  Clear indication of, well, what are they actually trying to prohibit there? But it does seem to be something very internalized in the individual.

• 26:53Tristan Hughes?

  It's also interesting here in how it's structured. It is very patriarchal in its, well, in its outlook, isn't it? Like, you shall not covet your neighbor's wife. And it's very much like a man to man kind of thing. And the woman's got no say in this whatsoever. So we should probably highlight that as well.

• 27:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly. I mean, it's, it's the basic supposition of this entire world is that we are in more or less patrimonial patriarchal society. Now, that doesn't mean patriarchy in the sense of strict, almost abusive treatment of women. Women had agency in this world. But the basic supposition about how you described, let's say, the family unit is it's the house of the father. Within it is a house of the mother. The mother does have agency. And in fact, we have plenty of biblical texts that talk about it. But certainly, when, when we're thinking of the family, it's a patriarchal unit. And the family is, is a closed system, as a closed social system, is defined by male, male lineages.

• 27:51Tristan Hughes?

  Well, that's the biblical narrative in Exodus. And that's the list of 10 or 11, or how many you want to, to define as the commandments. So it's nice to set that out straight away. You did mention how it's also relayed in Deuteronomy, which is, is it the next book after Exodus or a couple after?

• 28:07Speaker 02

  It's a couple after.

• 28:08Tristan Hughes?

  A couple after.

• 28:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, so we have Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and then Deuteronomy.

• 28:13Tristan Hughes?

  Right.

• 28:13Speaker 02

  And Deuteronomy is an interesting book, if you've never read it, because Deuteronomy is, as in the Greek, deuteronomos. It's the second law. It's the second time law is being given. This time not at Mount Sinai, but rather on the plains of Moab, overlooking the promised land, which Moses will famously not enter. So it's, it's set in a different context. The desert wanderings are just about to end. They're about to cross the Jordan, which is in many respects, kind of a parallel to the, to the Red Sea there.

• 28:42Tristan Hughes?

  So have they been wandering the desert for four whole books? Is that the idea?

• 28:46Speaker 02

  Yes, exactly. Yeah, yeah. A lot of things happen. Uh, but essentially, the Exodus generation has all died off, with the exception of Moses. So this is the, the generation that never experienced that. Remember, that's important, it's why you remember the Sabbath day. And and so this is this is a whole new generation. This is the generation that would be the the the ones who conquered the land from the Canaanites. And there delivered a second set of laws, which begins with the Ten Commandments, just as the first set had begun. And from, I should qualify, the first set of laws that we encounter in in Exodus, which you'd follow immediately after the Ten Commandments, are what is known as the Covenant Code. So it's framed in terms of this covenant, which is just a way of saying kind of a treaty

• 29:31Speaker 02

  or a contract between this god Yahweh and his people, Israel. So we get a second covenant, which actually repeats quite a few of the laws from the first one. This is the Deuteronomical law. We weren't very creative in naming this one. It also calls itself a covenant. It also begins with the Ten Commandments in slightly modified form, as we've already mentioned. But in fact, it actually contradicts some points in in Exodus. None more prominent than the fact that they are really promoting cult centralization in Deuteronomy, that there's only one place to worship Yahweh. They don't say Jerusalem, but everyone knows that's what they're intending.

• 30:09Tristan Hughes?

  So if those are the two areas where we really have the Ten Commandments, but are there any other times in the Bible, in the Old Testament or new, where the words Ten Commandments rear their head again?

• 30:20Speaker 02

  Yes, but I can't remember the citations. I know they do come up. They are mentioned a couple more times, but the specific references escape me. If you have a good concordance, you can go look it up. So they are remembered. They're old in their foundational texts, absolutely. So this is this is that layer of biblical writing that we feel pretty confident in terms of where where it dates relative to other pieces of of the Bible.

• 30:44Tristan Hughes?

  But you can imagine like the apostles or those early Christian followers being taught, you know, the story of the Ten Commandments many, many centuries later. And when they're spreading the word, I mean, this is part of what they're spreading as well.

• 30:56Speaker 02

  Absolutely. Yeah, yeah. And interpreting it, because as as we already outlined, what what does it mean to honor your father and your mother? Well, in Second Temple Judaism, they probably had similar questions, right? So I think that's part of the dynamic of, yeah, evangelizing the word as well.

• 31:12Tristan Hughes?

  Can we talk about the number 10? I mean, do we have any idea why they would have chosen 10 for the list of commandments, that round number?

• 31:20Speaker 02

  It's actually quite strange because we have a lot of sacred numbers in the Bible. The number three is quite sacred, seven, obviously. I mean, it's days of the week, the Sabbath.

• 31:31Tristan Hughes?

  Three, you think of the Trinity, don't you?

• 31:32Speaker 02

  The Trinity, yes, but we're pre-Trinity. So in this context, three is associated often with divine messengers, but seven is really the really sacred number. I mean, it lends itself to a verb, which means to swear an oath, of course, creation of the world in seven days. And this is not exclusive to ancient Israel either. The sacredness of seven is quite common. Mesopotamia, six is quite important. They have a sexagesimal mathematical system. That's why we have 365 days. We have 360 degrees in a circle, why seconds are 60. So the interesting thing is we have all these sacred numbers and 10 is not usually one of them.

• 32:14Speaker 02

  Obviously, we're a decimal-based society, so we think of 10 as an obvious number, but it's less obvious than you would think. There are obvious parallels in Egyptian culture and Mesopotamian culture where there are decads and sets of 10 deities. But again, if we just start looking for numbers, it kind of becomes a bit of an obsession. We start to see numbers everywhere and everything adds up to 10. So off the top of my head, no, I can't point to something super specific unless you know of something.

• 32:43Tristan Hughes?

  No, I can't. No, I was just thinking that. I wanted to ask because, you know, it's a number that you always say is the 10 commandments. But you mentioned Egyptian there in passing. So actually, let's use that to now talk about the context of when they're writing the stories of Moses' 10 commandments and then Deuteronomy. So if that's supposed to be set in the second millennium B.C., is that the idea around about there? When do we think, what are the theories as to when the people are actually writing down the texts in Exodus and Deuteronomy? Because it's not a straight line that Genesis is the oldest and then Exodus and then Deuteronomy follows and so on.

• 33:21Speaker 02

  Right. So I think it's fairly conventional knowledge among biblical scholars. And there's always naysayers, but generally, we assume Exodus is the older and that Deuteronomy is based on Exodus. And there's pretty good reasons to think that. And based on other associations, we think

• 33:39Speaker 02

  The core of Deuteronomy, which would include the Ten Commandments, dates somewhere in the late 7th century. So that's a terminus antiquum. So sometime before that, we have the composition of the Ten Commandments.

• 33:51Tristan Hughes?

  So this is just before Nebuchadnezzar and the Babylonians sacked Jerusalem.

• 33:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's right as Assyria is on its way out and Nebuchadnezzar and the Babylonians are on their way. And that's Deuteronomy. So sometime before that is when we think of these parts of Exodus, not all of Exodus, but these parts of Exodus. Okay, so then that gives us basically a couple hundred years, maybe 300 years, before Hebrew doesn't exist because our earliest Hebrew texts date to about, we say, the 9th century, beginning of the 9th century. Before then, we don't even have Hebrew. Our earliest reference to a god named Yahweh is around 850. So most scholars tend to think if the Ten Commandments are being written, they're somewhere in this sweet spot between, let's be generous here, let's say 950,

• 34:39Speaker 02

  and that's being very generous, 950 and 650, somewhere in there, would be a logical place to put this composition being written. And that's the date I would also assume somewhere in there. Now, if it were 950, we'd expect some older features. Probably we get this with archaic poetry. We don't get this with the Ten Commandments. It's pretty standard Hebrew.

• 35:02Tristan Hughes?

  So do you mean if it was older, there would be more kind of clear evidence of kind of rhyming or poetry within the writing of the Ten Commandments itself? Is that what you mean?

• 35:12Speaker 02

  I mean more in the fact that the Hebrew language evolved. Imagine reading the Canterbury Tales. You know it's old, but you know it's English, right? So it's something like that. And we're not quite as far separated in time, but a couple hundred years is enough, especially in antiquity, for the language to have changed substantially. So we can usually tell, at least it's a good hint, that something's older. Now, that doesn't help us if they're updating the text, but you're not supposed to. It's the writing of God. You shouldn't be correcting his grammar, really. So that's our best supposition, somewhere between 9th, 7th centuries, when this text is first written, which actually makes sense for a lot of other things, which is it's at this time that all of these languages start to be written in and around the Levant, not just in Israel and Judah.

• 35:57Tristan Hughes?

  Is that context really important for then understanding?

• 36:01Tristan Hughes?

  What the Ten Commandments are actually supposed to be? Because what is happening in that area of the world in the early to mid first millennium B.C.?

• 36:10Speaker 02

  Yes, context is absolutely important because this is the time period when we have the proliferation of alphabetic writing, not just in the Levant. We have Aramaic being written alphabetically, Phoenician is being written alphabetically, Hebrew appears unseen, many dialects up north. And then, of course, at some point, it gets transferred westward. We have our first Greek inscriptions. So literacy is emerging at this moment. And for various reasons, we actually think it might be tied to something like the Ten Commandments. Because right at this moment, between the ninth, eighth, seventh centuries, we had the proliferation of monuments, really the only things that are preserved to us

• 36:51Speaker 02

  from this time period, because everything else is written on perishable materials like papyrus and vellum and those kinds of materials. So we have monumental inscriptions in languages like Hebrew that start to tell us, okay, there's some serious levels of literacy going on at this moment. And what's particularly interesting is that some of these inscriptions look a lot like the Ten Commandments, not in the sense that they're 10 words prescribing rules, but in the way they begin, which is, I am so and so, and here's all the things I expect of you.

• 37:24Tristan Hughes?

  So does that give us any insight into how far and wide these Ten Commandments were supposed to be followed? Was it the case that this was a legal code or like an actual constitution for the people? Or more of a list of you shouldn't do that, don't do this, this is what you should follow?

• 37:40Speaker 02

  It's far too short to be anything approaching a constitution. It's just 10 generic rules that barely cover half of the things you probably want to observe if you're even approaching a moral individual. So it can't be that. So it must be trying to achieve something else. And this is where I turn actually to the narrative a little bit and think in terms of the fact that not only are these attributed to God, that these are writings of God himself, the only real writings of God himself, that they're written on stone tablets. So they're in a sense monumental, they're not written on papyrus, they're not written on scrolls. And if this is the kind of thing that's going on, and I have to attribute this to a scholar named Timothy Hoag, who noticed that right at this time, we start to encounter

• 38:23Speaker 02

  what are called I am monuments. So at some level, the text is trying to present itself as a monumental text that's actually embedded in biblical scrolls. And it's very successful because it defines itself materially as set off from what surrounds it. So the Ten Commandments, paradoxically, we know them only through the narrative, but they exist apart from the narrative. We know because they're on tablets that are placed in the Ark of the Covenant. So they present themselves as something separate, something unique, something, say, discreet from the narrative, unlike everything else. Everything else occurs in the context of the narrative. So this is really where cutting-edge research on the Ten Commandments is starting to turn, that they are these things that are separable,

• 39:07Speaker 02

  that are aligned with the types of monumental inscriptions that are being put up all over the Levant at around the 8th century BCE. And we find them in and around Israel. So what examples are these? So we have probably the most famous example from the immediate vicinity is something called the Mesha inscription of the Moab. Mesha, yes. Yes. So this inscription begins, much like the Ten Commandments, "I am Yahweh, your God who brought you to the land of Egypt," it begins. "I am Mesha, king of Debon, who did all these great things," talking about conquests. It doesn't have any specific prescriptions for the people of Moab. But again, that concerns more the content, but it's the framing that the way that it introduces itself is, look, this is a monumental royal

• 39:51Speaker 02

  inscription. And the scholar Timothy Hoag makes this case in his book. Look, the Ten Commandments are trying to emulate that style, to say, this is a monumental text within the narrative. And so there's that inscription, but we actually get well over 90 further north in the Levant. And it's pretty clear that this is connected to the spread of alphabetic literacy in the whole region, that these texts are how people encountered writing. And so it sets the Decalogue of the Ten Commandments as really important in the biblical imagination.

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• 42:07Tristan Hughes?

  So how would the laws have been passed down through generations at that time? So there's the creation of these stone slabs to be put in the Ark of the Covenant. Right. But then, of course, you want to share these commandments far and wide to the population. Do we know much about that?

• 42:26Speaker 02

  Well, again, we're presuming that they want to share these commandments far and wide to the population. This is actually a fundamental debate within, among scholars who who deal with law and morality, especially written law and written morality in ancient Israel. We don't really know how widely these texts were distributed, even ones, let's say, like the Code of Hammurabi, to use a Mesopotamian example, 282 laws inscribed on a stone, in theory accessible, in practice, highly inaccessible. Number one, very difficult to read. Now, the Ten Commandments you could read, they're quite simple. They're written in alphabetic texts. Doesn't take as much training to read an alphabetic text. But again, where are they

• 43:08Speaker 02

  placed? Are they placed in a temple where you don't have everyday access to? That's where the Code of Hammurabi was. It was very restricted in terms of access. So this gets us to, I think, a level of understanding and knowledge that we may never actually be able to access. So if not that, then the only other option would be orally, that people would pass this down orally. And there are scholars who think that the Ten Commandments are just short enough to be memorized, repeated, and passed down from one generation to the next. So it's entirely possible. We now know the incredible capability of the human mind to store pretty substantial pieces of information and pass that down

• 43:49Speaker 02

  orally. So absolutely, that's a possibility. Now, between Exodus and Deuteronomy, they're dealing with texts 100% that they're reading each other's texts. So all of these potentialities are at play with the decalogue.

• 44:03Tristan Hughes?

  And so do we think, you mentioned in passing there Hammurabi and his law code, also the Assyrians earlier with the 7th century B.C. date, or somewhere around there for the Ten Commandments. With the law codes and the great carved stones with writing from Mesopotamian civilizations and the Hittites, and of course, Egypt as well. Do you think there is an influence from these other Bronze Age societies and early Iron Age societies in the creation of the story of the Ten Commandments?

• 44:32Speaker 02

  In the story, yes. I'm always hesitant to posit direct contact between specific texts, but in terms of speaking in generalizations, let's start with Mesopotamia and the Code of Hammurabi. So, so long list-like collections of laws had been a component of Near Eastern scribalism for millennia by the time we think these texts are being written. So absolutely. And that doesn't necessarily even have to come from the, the legal tradition. It could come from what we call the wisdom tradition, long lists of ethical behaviors. We have a book called Proverbs that has really long lists of ethical prohibitions too. And the Decalogue sits somewhere right on that line between law and, and ethics. So either one

• 45:14Speaker 02

  could have been the influence. And that, I think that's beyond a doubt, that they're tapping into that tradition of, of creating these long lists, what one Assyriologist called list science, really, that to help understand the world in which they lived, that they really were list makers. So there's that on the, on the one hand. But more specifically, if you look broader into the narrative, that, that this is really the opening salvo of what is the covenant between Israel and their God. I think that has more meaningful connections to the East in the form of suzerainty or vassal treaties with the Assyrian Empire. Now, these, these are old. They show up, you know, ninth century, even into the late Bronze Age, when we talk about the Hittites. The Hittites also had vassal treaties with,

• 45:59Speaker 02

  with territories that were under their control, but still had kings. And basically, these vassal treaties are contracts between kings. If they're equals, it's a parity treaty. I'll come to your aid, you come to my aid, and we'll trade some lumber and gold. Or they're vassal treaties. I won't destroy you if you pay taxes, right?

• 46:18Speaker 02

  And so, within the context where the Decalogue is embedded in the Covenant Code and in the Book of Deuteronomy, scholars tend to think that these broader textual units are based on these kinds of treaties. And this is really important considering the materiality of the Ten Commandments, because we know these treaties were written down and transmitted to territories far to the west and far to the east of the Assyrian Empire. And remember, Judah and Israel were both conquered by the Assyrian Empire. And up to a certain point, we always thought most of the ties were fairly generic, until scholars found a Isar Haddan, who's an important Assyrian king, vassal treaty in a western territory, in a temple, in the holy of holies of the temple. Maybe this is starting to ring alarm bells.

• 47:03Speaker 02

  This is exactly where the Ten Commandments would have been housed, according to tradition. So maybe they're emulating that treatment of these really important legal texts in sacred precincts. And in fact, some scholars argue that even in the formulation of parts of Deuteronomy, especially curses, we have direct parallels in the vassal treaties of the Assyrian Empire specifically. So it's possible. People have also pushed back pretty hard, saying, yes, but we're just overemphasizing the Assyrian treaties. We also have Aramean treaties that look just as much like the biblical texts. So maybe what we actually have aren't direct connections between Assyria and Judah and Israel, but more treaty language that's showing up in biblical texts.

• 47:46Speaker 02

  And everyone is participating in this treaty language.

• 47:49Tristan Hughes?

  It makes me think of the, you know, you must not break your oath one, right? You know, that importance in these empires and the client states that they have. You know, you've entered into an agreement. If you break it, you know, we will come down on you with all the force idea, isn't it?

• 48:02Speaker 02

  And the one point to emphasize here is that unlike all of these other treaties, which are between kings, this is between a god and his people, which is fundamentally different. And what's most important, and what I've spent time writing on, is that at all levels of the biblical tradition of law and their vision of law,

• 48:23Speaker 02

  The human king has been written out. There is no place for him. When the covenant, when the contract between Yahweh and Israel is forged via Moses, who is very explicitly never called a king. He's called almost everything else. He's a war leader, he's a prophet, he's a priest. He's everything. He's essentially a king without being called a king. But I think it's very intentional that they don't call him the king. Because they don't want this intermediary. The relationship between God and the people is direct. And that really sets up the distinction with these other Near Eastern literary traditions.

• 48:57Tristan Hughes?

  Do you think this is actually also the Ten Commandments story? The people who are writing it, who are creating it, they're also doing it to show that their unique identity in contrast to all these other great powers that there are in the world at that time, which are ruled by kings. In this story where the word of God is passed this important figure, who, as you say, is clearly labeled not as a king. It just, it shows their unique identity and the specialness, I guess, in what they were thinking of who they were.

• 49:27Speaker 02

  I absolutely think they're doing that because in chapter four of Deuteronomy, that's exactly what they say. They say, "Look at us. We are a wise and understanding people because of our proximity to our God. We are distinct among the nations." And then in places where they actually do talk about the advent of kingship in Israel, it's a bad idea because it makes them like the nations all around. So the distinctiveness of this relationship, which may have started with the Ten Commandments, we don't know. But at some point in time, they decided to make Yahweh the true king of Israel with no place for the human king. Then at that moment, all other legal traditions fell in line. I mean, Deuteronomy, there's no king.

• 50:10Speaker 02

  Well, there is a king who is supposed to just read the Torah, under supervision of priests, by the way. So I think this is really critical with the Decalogue because at some level there, they're emulating royal inscriptions from the Levant. "I am king so and so." It's not a king, it's Yahweh. "I am Yahweh." So Yahweh is assuming a lot of royal prerogatives in this very short text.

• 50:33Tristan Hughes?

  "I am Ashurbanapal, king of the world, king of Assyria," and stuff like that.

• 50:36Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 50:37Tristan Hughes?

  Big question next, Dylan. Archaeological evidence. I remember asking this one for the Ark of the Covenant as well, that we've done in the past. Is there any archaeological evidence for the Ten Commandments?

• 50:47Speaker 02

  The same archaeological evidence as the Ark of the Covenant because they were in it. So if we find the Ark, then maybe we'll find the tablets. So obviously, no. Direct evidence of the Ten Commandments, the stone tablets of the Ten Commandments, they're not going to be found. But that's, that's the needle in the haystack, the million dollar find. What we do find is exactly what I've been talking about. Examples of texts that look like the Ten Commandments. These monumental inscriptions in languages that are very closely related to Hebrew that begin, "I am so and so." This is a great insight. It tells us that this text is trying to emulate monumental royal inscriptions. The Suzerainian treaties of Isar Haddan and various other Ashurbanipal and various

• 51:32Speaker 02

  other Assyrian kings tells us a little bit about, well, why have this legal text in the inner sanctuary of a temple? So all of these indirect comparisons that archaeology tells us actually helps us understand the Ten Commandments a lot better, which, you know, in lieu of finding them, is pretty good.

• 51:49Tristan Hughes?

  Is it also quite interesting that, I kind of also, I guess that was probably going to be the answer, otherwise I feel they would probably be better known, although it'd be talked about a lot today. But is it also interesting, going back to the wording of the Ten Commandments, that, you know, other words you normally associate with religions, particularly more than 2,000 years ago, sacrifices, priesthood, purity. It doesn't feel like any of those things are really focused on in the Ten Commandments. Is that pretty interesting?

• 52:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think it's, it's a, it's a dynamic of religion that is, in many ways, very different from what we typically find, exactly as you said. The usual descriptions of, and we have plenty of, you know, ritual manuals, instructions to ritual specialists, instructions to priests. I mean, the entire book of Leviticus and half of Numbers, that's what it is. So we know what we can expect when we see these kinds of religious instructions. So to find these, they fit into some other genre. It's not just about religion, it's about this specific relationship. And I think it's covenant genre.

• 52:59Speaker 02

  It's talking about the relationship between Israel and Yahweh, not just in the confines of what's going on in a temple, but on the individual level, right? Don't covet your neighbor's wife. That's speaking to an individual. That's not speaking to a religious elite. That's not speaking to the Israelites in general. This is speaking to the individual. So there is this individualization that's very unique with this text, which I don't know parallels to, perhaps in some wisdom traditions in Egypt or Babylon.

• 53:29Tristan Hughes?

  Which surely makes you feel that these commandments must have been spread far and wide when they were created, because they do seem to, you know, touch on the everyday person who is living in these societies. I know you say we can't know, but surely that must be, you know, a very plausible idea that's either through oral tradition, or maybe there were mini tablets of ten commandments or something like that. I don't want to say too much, obviously, I don't know, but some way that these laws would have been passed to everyday, people within the kingdom at that time.

• 54:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, I mean, it's absolutely possible. And we have evidence of biblical texts being preserved on smaller scroll amulet things. So the possibilities are endless, and the texts do make it to us. It still leaves us with a question of, well, in what form? And was it all ten? Could it not have existed as simple aphorisms? All separate and then brought together into one? So you see, why these ten? Why in this order? Why in this particular format? Why do those ones in the middle look so different? You will not kill from the ones that are all around it. Does that maybe imply that, well, maybe those four, five floated as a unit together? Because they were very short, very pithy, very memorable?

• 54:45Speaker 02

  As opposed to clearly the Sabbath rule, that's not even remembered the same between Exodus and Deuteronomy. So you see, we get, we get into the slippage there of, did they know the 10 commandments? Which version? And I haven't even talked about the fact that we have another manuscript tradition from another important Jewish community, the Samaritans, who add, who add another commandment.

• 55:06Tristan Hughes?

  They add another one.

• 55:07Speaker 02

  They add another one at the end. And it's talking about setting up stones on Mount Gerizim. No other tradition preserves this. This is because this is the holy mountain recognized by the Samaritan community. So in their Pentateuch, which is, well, we're not exactly sure, we're reliant on medieval manuscripts for the most part, but probably traces back to an ancient manuscript tradition that ran alongside the ones we know today as the Bible. They have a different 10 commandments. They have an entirely different rule. So what if every single community had their own 10 commandments? And what would that formulation look like?

• 55:43Tristan Hughes?

  So they had the basis of the 10 commandments, but might have added a couple on just for their particular group, I guess.

• 55:49Speaker 02

  Just as the Samaritans did.

• 55:50Tristan Hughes?

  Right, just as the Samaritans did.

• 55:52Speaker 02

  So you see where I'm going with this, to say the 10 commandments, I think we should be talking about various formulations and various sets, because we, we, we have the manuscript evidence that there were different formulations of this singular text.

• 56:05Tristan Hughes?

  The commandments.

• 56:06Speaker 02

  The commandments, exactly.

• 56:07Tristan Hughes?

  And so how long is it before we actually do have evidence of these commandments written down that have survived to us today?

• 56:16Speaker 02

  Yeah. So the, so the oldest is of course going to be the, the Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible, what's known as Septuagint, which is in the third century BCE.

• 56:24Tristan Hughes?

  In Alexandria.

• 56:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly. So these are the oldest manuscript traditions. So it's set by that point, which we would have known. We think, we think these texts are much, much older than that. In Hebrew, the oldest would be the Dead Sea Scrolls, copies of Exodus, copies of Deuteronomy, which again, doesn't really tell us much with texts this old. So it at least puts our manuscript traditions there. But again, we have references and other texts to the 10 commandments. So we kind of anticipated to find them more or less the same, which is exactly what we find.

• 56:53Tristan Hughes?

  I wish I could ask so many more questions, but I'll ask a big encompassing legacy question to end it all off. How important do you think the Ten Commandments have been, like their legacy for people down through the centuries?

• 57:09Speaker 02

  I think incredibly important to to return to that point I made earlier. I mean, we're seeing in the United States debates about placing these monuments as monuments in front of places of worship, in front of places of education, in front of places of lawmaking, because they're symbols of a an identity that people are laying claim to, sometimes called the Abrahamic Judeo-Christian identity. Now, oftentimes, these identities are for exclusion, but again, it it just goes to show how potent the symbol of the Decalogue is for staking out a claim, just as it probably was designed in antiquity to lay out this claim of this unique relationship between you as an Israelite or you as a Yahweh worshiper.

• 57:54Speaker 02

  So the lasting legacy is amazing. And also Hollywood, Herman Melville, Charleston Heston, bringing the Ten Commandments down too. So so it's it's it's it's a legacy, a great legacy.

• 58:05Tristan Hughes?

  Is there a fear that these commandments have been rewritten time and time again throughout history to suit like the context of the world we live in?

• 58:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think so, because their their meaning is hard to grasp.

• 58:21Tristan Hughes?

  Because it certainly feels like they're evolving. I mean, if you look at the original wording that we talked about earlier, like with with your ox and and stuff like that, your possessions and things that, you know, not everyone has an ox today and stuff like that, right? So like surely there is the danger of them being translated or as they evolve down problematic paths.

• 58:40Speaker 02

  Absolutely. Let's take the big one. You will not kill. That has been used from extreme pacifist movements. That's why certain denominations of of religious communities in the United States won't serve in in militaries. It's also been used by anti-abortionist campaigns to kill people. So thou shalt not kill, you will not kill is is just right on that precipice of interpretive malleability to justify or prohibit all range of actions, including killing.

• 59:12Speaker 02

  So yeah, it's very much in the eye of the beholder how we use these texts.

• 59:16Tristan Hughes?

  Dylan, this has been absolutely fascinating. Is there anything else you'd like to mention about the Ten Commandments and your work around them and their importance that you'd like to highlight before we finish?

• 59:26Speaker 02

  I think we've covered the main points. Always fun to just go read the text yourselves, compare and contrast. Look at Deuteronomy and Exodus, they are a bit different. So yeah, always encouraging reading, I suppose.

• 59:39Tristan Hughes?

  Dylan, it just goes to me to say thank you so much for taking the time to come back on the show.

• 59:42Speaker 02

  It's been great. Thank you.

• 59:47Tristan Hughes?

  Well, there you go. There was the fantastic Dr. Dylan Johnson returning to the podcast to talk through the story of the Ten Commandments. I hope you enjoyed the episode, an episode that you can also watch on the Ancients YouTube channel. And don't you worry, Dylan will be back for another episode in the new year. Very excited to share that one with you too. But in the meantime, thank you for listening to this episode of the Ancients. Please follow the show on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. That really helps us and you'll be doing us a big favor. If you'd be kind enough to leave us a rating as well, well, we'd really appreciate that. Don't forget, you can also sign up to History Hit for hundreds of hours of original documentaries with a new release every week. Sign up at historyhit.com/subscribe.

• 1:00:33Tristan Hughes?

  That's all from me. I'll see you in the next episode.

• 1:00:45Speaker 01

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