Impression Management

We all in some way care about what other people think of us. At our core we all have a fear of saying something dumb or embarrassing ourselves somehow. One sociological theory says that our effort to prevent those embarrassments is the basis of society. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:04Josh Clark?

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• 1:03Speaker 03

  Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeart Radio.

• 1:13Josh Clark?

  Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh and there's Chuck and Jerry's here too. And we're putting on our best faces in this episode of Stuff You Should Know, right?

• 1:23Speaker 02

  Our front stage self.

• 1:25Josh Clark?

  Yeah. And speaking of stage, Chuck, I have a great intro to this. I believe it was Rush who first said, all the world's a stage.

• 1:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:35Josh Clark?

  And the men and women on it are merely players or something like that.

• 1:38Speaker 02

  Yeah. Performers and portrayers.

• 1:41Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 1:41Speaker 02

  Each other's audience.

• 1:43Josh Clark?

  Is that what he says? I never knew and I've never bothered to look up the lyrics because there's definitely some words in there. I'm like, I don't know what Geddy Lee just said.

• 1:51Speaker 02

  Yeah. I think, I'm pretty sure that's right.

• 1:53Josh Clark?

  It's a great, great song, Limelight. Very well written.

• 1:56Speaker 02

  What a song.

• 1:57Josh Clark?

  Very original stuff.

• 1:58Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:59Josh Clark?

  So we're talking about impression management today, right?

• 2:03Speaker 02

  Yes, sir.

• 2:04Josh Clark?

  And what do you think about it?

• 2:06Speaker 02

  Well, I think that I just, the more I've done this show over the years, the more I realize that I could have been a sociologist.

• 2:14Josh Clark?

  Oh, yeah?

• 2:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, man, this stuff fascinates me to no end. I took one sociology class in college and that's it. And I remember at the time, you know, when very little outside of English major classes interested me, I was like, man, this is super interesting to me, but not enough to pursue it. But human behaviors is endlessly fascinating to me.

• 2:38Josh Clark?

  Yeah, and one of the things, sociology gets beat up and edged out and elbowed in the face by psychology a lot unfairly, I think, too.

• 2:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'm not talking about social psychology.

• 2:49Josh Clark?

  No, this is sociology.

• 2:52Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:54Josh Clark?

  And if sociology started out, we should say, basically examining massive institutions, it was macro sociology, religion, like economics, politics, that kind of stuff, and just how people behaved and interacted, or how people came together to form these institutions. And then the guy we're going to talk about today came along and he's like, let's kind of zoom in a little more. And like you were saying, he kicked off this, this type of sociology that examines like people, just interactions, very small interactions that sometimes we don't even know what we're doing. And apparently, you're very interested in that.

• 3:35Speaker 02

  I am, and you know what? It seems like the more I've learned about Irving Goffman through today's research and, you know, researching him a little further, like, he's a Canadian-American sociologist, and this is like the mid 20th century, 1950s-ish, when he started doing a lot of this work. He seems to me like someone who was just fascinated by human behavior even more, even in a way that like other sociologists weren't, especially at the time.

• 4:00Josh Clark?

  Yeah, for sure. He, yeah, and he also, I read that he developed like a real sympathy for the people who were pushed to the fringes of society unfairly, basically across the board.

• 4:13Josh Clark?

  So he was not only like a really good sociologist and very intuitive and apparently he had a really interesting writing style, too. He had lovely, good turn of phrase. He was also like a very empathetic, good person, from what I can tell.

• 4:28Speaker 02

  Oh, man. I'm so glad I didn't hook my wagon to the wrong dude.

• 4:32Josh Clark?

  Right. No, you hooked it to the right guy.

• 4:34Speaker 02

  And when it's somebody from the 1950s, you never know what's gonna happen there. We should probably say what we're talking about, though, impression management, or self-presentation, or perception management, is basically, these are terms that he all came up, he came up with all of these, essentially, and it's just how you present to others. And, you know, we'll get into the nuts and bolts of it, but how much you might think about that, how much is automatic, how much is intuition, how much of it is authenticity. It's super fascinating to me. I just, I love this stuff.

• 5:07Josh Clark?

  Yeah, and a lot of it, I mean, when we start talking about it, too, it'll just seem very common sense, like, yeah, of course, you're going to, you know, mind your Ps and Qs and sit up straight and be friendly in a job interview. And that is a type of impression management, but it is way more granular than that, to the point where, like, if you're into language, linguistics, that kind of thing, the entire purpose of a conversation is to exchange information, like, I know this, now I'm sharing it with you, and the other person says, "Thank you very much," and that's what a conversation's for. As far as impression management goes, and Ervin Goffman and his ilk, conversations are essentially

• 5:47Josh Clark?

  performances that two people share and do for one another that helps create a version of ourselves that we kind of walk around with, and that that changes. And there's very little point to a conversation other than that. It's a radically different view of things.

• 6:07Speaker 02

  Yeah. I also think it's interesting, and this, you know, this is all just precursor stuff that we're babbling on about, but when you said it, it just seems like instinct or whatever, what'd you say, common sense, to do these things, not everybody, my friend, and that is something that I've gotten better about over the years. It used to...

• 6:30Speaker 02

  Be something that really bothered me and I would, you know, leave an interaction with somebody or something and with Emily and be like, God, like just social cluelessness is such a turn off for me. Like, read the room, buddy. That kind of thing. But then the more I've gotten older and the more we've all learned about different neurodiversities, I've definitely found myself in a place where I try to be like, hey, I don't know what this person's deal is. Like, they may be struggling just to present themselves as, you know, passing or masking and, you know, we're going to talk about all this stuff in a situation to just to sort of get by. So I try to really keep that stuff in mind these days.

• 7:08Josh Clark?

  For sure. And I feel like there's, there's different tranches.

• 7:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 7:12Josh Clark?

  There's the one you just described. There's people who, this is so effortless too, they don't even have to think about it and they're just great basically across the board. Then there's everybody else in the middle. Some people in the middle are better at it than others. Some people think too hard about it and they become obvious and clumsy and essentially though, no one can escape it, I think is my point. There's nobody out there who doesn't engage in some sort of impression management essentially their entire lives.

• 7:40Speaker 02

  Yeah. And, and neurodiversities aside, again, which we'll talk about, there are also people who aren't neurodivergent, who are just clueless a-holes. And I have found too, in my life, that I believe narcissism plays a part. I think narcissists have a much harder time because they're generally just have their heads up their own butts and are so about the self, that they are often the ones that I've found, if they, if they don't have some sort of, you know, neurodivergence, that's the reason why they are like they are. It may be because of narcissism. Because, you know, usually the reply after someone is like, read the room, buddy. They're like, what? What?

• 8:15Josh Clark?

  I'm perfect. What do you mean, read the room? You read the room.

• 8:18Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 8:20Josh Clark?

  So, uh, let's get into it and we'll start with Goffman and where he got his start. Again, this is Ervin Goffman, groundbreaking sociologist. Um, he started off doing field work in a Scottish village and rather than figuring out how the city council worked for that, or the village elders basically kept everybody in line. He just enmeshed himself in the village and just paid attention to how people interacted with one another. And really, like, that's a very anthropological way of studying. It was very not how they did it at the time.

• 8:55Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 8:56Josh Clark?

  Among sociologists. So he was groundbreaking. He essentially went like, I'm going to take this field and just put it, take it in a different direction. So, let's go.

• 9:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, for sure. He wrote a book in 1956 called The Presentation of Self in Everyday Life. What a great title. No colons. It's exactly what it says it is. A very big book in the world of sociology and the International Sociological Association named it as the 10th most important sociology book of the 20th century. And in this book is where he touched on what you talked about with this sort of performance aspect of our everyday lives with, he didn't invent it, you know, it was an existing concept, but dramaturgical theory, which is what you said, like, we're all sort of operating on a social script, sort of like the Terminator, like, it's pretty limited. You don't have endless options.

• 9:47Speaker 02

  You're like, maybe you should say one of these four things at this dinner party when someone brings up a thing. And even if it's a brand new situation, you're drawing on the scripts that you've used over and over in your life to work out how to interact in the scene.

• 10:03Josh Clark?

  Right. Yeah. And it's also, yeah, it's been shaped by interactions with other people. It's shaped by what you've seen on TV, which can be very dangerous because stuff that's like hilarious on a sitcom.

• 10:15Speaker 02

  Right.

• 10:15Josh Clark?

  Does not necessarily translate well in a real life. It's like, you're being a huge jerk or you're not really that funny, you know, in the case of somebody who models themselves after friends.

• 10:26Speaker 02

  Yeah. Like, pull my finger doesn't always break the ice?

• 10:28Josh Clark?

  No, pull my finger always works.

• 10:30Speaker 02

  Okay, great.

• 10:32Josh Clark?

  But yeah, so what his point was in this dramaturgical theory, and like you said, he didn't invent it, but if you, if you look into it, he's basically like, he's the guy who took it and ran with it.

• 10:42Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 10:43Josh Clark?

  No matter where you are, you're performing. And depending on where you are, you're going, your performance is going to be different. Right? So if you're sitting there at school, you're going to act different than you do at a bar.

• 10:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 10:58Josh Clark?

  Right?

• 10:58Speaker 02

  Sure. Ideally.

• 11:00Josh Clark?

  Yeah, you would, you would hope for sure. And then if you're at work, you know, you're going to act a little different from that, too. And it's essentially, even when you're hanging out with your closest friends, sociologists believe that you're still performing in some way, shape or form, just probably less than you normally do.

• 11:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, and some think even when you're by yourself, that that still informs how you talk to your little person on your shoulder.

• 11:30Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 11:30Speaker 02

  Which is really interesting. He talked about appearance and like clothing even, and how they will convey, and when we say actor, we're just talking about a person. But in his context of it all being a performance, he called them actors. But you know, your costume that you put on is going to convey like maybe your social status, maybe what kind of job you have. There's, you know, there's that outward appearance. And then there's the manner in which you deal with someone. And obeying the sort of societal rules in a social situation is a big time thing. And if you, if you start to do things that don't comply with what people generally expect in, you know, at a dinner party or on an elevator or something like that, it can upset people around you.

• 12:14Speaker 02

  I think the interesting thing that I took from that is, I mean, that's kind of common sense. But when you're writing like a screenplay or something, like dramatic writing or a play, the most interesting characters are usually people that do things that surprise you or that fly in the face of

• 12:31Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 12:32Speaker 02

  maybe a social norm or make a decision that's unexpected. So I think it's interesting that in drama, it makes for very compelling characters. But in real life, we kind of don't want that generally.

• 12:41Josh Clark?

  Yeah, like the manic pixie dream girl, right?

• 12:46Speaker 02

  I don't know what you mean by that. I mean, I know what that term means, but I don't know how it relates to this.

• 12:50Josh Clark?

  Oh, they're always doing like crazy stuff that like makes the protagonist dude fall in love with them or whatever.

• 12:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, I got you. So in terms of a script that might be engaging even within the world of the script, whereas in real life, I don't know, a Man at Pixie Dream girl might go over, but the person saying pull my finger at the dinner party may not.

• 13:08Josh Clark?

  Well, it's funny that you say drama too, because to me, where my mind went was comedy. Like, almost all comedy is a person behaving in a way that is, violates the situation that they're in. Violates the scene and the script that they're supposed to be saying. That's all, from Adam Sandler to late Adam Sandler. It's all basically that.

• 13:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, that's the basis of joke telling really, is the unexpected thing happens. Super interesting.

• 13:40Josh Clark?

  And then one other thing too, he made a really good point. He said that the characters or the people who are interacting and again, just essentially performing, that they're trying to come to a common definition of the situation is what he called it.

• 13:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, that expected norm.

• 13:56Josh Clark?

  Yeah. And so like if you see, say, a scene on TV, it's just such a perfect analogy because that's essentially what he's talking about. And there's just one dude standing at a bus stop and it's a businessman, say. That scene is in a superposition. It hasn't been defined yet because there's only one person. And by the entrance of the next person, that's when the scene will start to be defined. If it's that guy's boss, he's gonna act totally different than if it's a pickpocket or something like that. So the scene hasn't been defined yet, but regardless of how it ends up, like what scene it is, both are playing their role essentially that we just innately know almost.

• 14:39Josh Clark?

  Not innately because it's learned, but it becomes just second nature for most people.

• 14:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, for sure. He also thought that, you know, there's obviously verbal and non-verbal parts to this with body language and how you dress and all that stuff. But Goffman himself thought that the non-verbal part, did I say non-purple?

• 14:58Josh Clark?

  If you did, it was lost on me, but I like non-purple more.

• 15:02Speaker 02

  Okay, I think I might have said non-purple. Anyway, uh, which is basically every other color but purple.

• 15:07Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 15:07Speaker 02

  Uh, he thought the non-verbal part was the most significant because it's harder to fake, uh, which I think is, is pretty interesting. Yeah?

• 15:16Josh Clark?

  Yeah, for sure.

• 15:17Speaker 02

  And that also, like, uh, while you're performing, quote unquote, again, do we need to keep saying that? Like, people know what we mean, right?

• 15:24Josh Clark?

  Uh, yeah, I mean, we could just say interacting with another person.

• 15:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, while you're interacting, uh, as, as the actor.

• 15:31Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 15:31Speaker 02

  Uh, you may be aware that you have like a goal in mind, like, I gotta, you know, I meant this thing, I gotta present really well. Or you may not.

• 15:40Josh Clark?

  Yeah, you, you may not have a goal. It may be, as we'll see, um, you're just trying to keep from freaking the other person out. You know, like, you're not trying to get anywhere, you're not trying to advance or get something from the person or make somebody think that you're great, but just, just being engaged, forced into a social interaction like that, you have to perform a certain way or else the other person is going to, to be weirded out, is going to want to get away from you. Sometimes people get really upset when somebody violates norms. And I think you can really, um, you can, this explains it a lot. Because it's like, um, someone is expecting somebody to behave in a certain way.

• 16:24Josh Clark?

  That person purposely doesn't behave in that way, then the people around them might get angry at that person, even though they might just be being themselves.

• 16:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, or, uh, get scared. Like, you know, when you get on an elevator by yourself and there's only one person on there, you act in a certain way as a almost way to say, you're safe right now. Like, you don't, you don't need to worry about me, I'm just going to my room. I'm not gonna, I'm not that guy that's gonna be some weirdo on the elevator, I promise. You're okay.

• 16:54Josh Clark?

  Yeah, or even like, try to strike up a conversation. Like, that's, that's unnerving and disarming.

• 17:02Speaker 02

  Uh, yeah, I mean, I, I think definitely not as much for me as for some people, because I was raised in the South, I'm more used to that. And, and definitely also in an enclosed space like an elevator, the norms are much different than like walking down the street or something.

• 17:15Josh Clark?

  For sure.

• 17:16Speaker 02

  You know, you're trapped, basically, in that little box.

• 17:18Josh Clark?

  Right, yeah, you have a captive audience.

• 17:21Speaker 02

  And now I'm panicking.

• 17:22Josh Clark?

  So just to kind of wrap up the whole dramaturgical theory part, Goffman said, we have our front stage selves, which I think you referred to earlier, right?

• 17:31Speaker 02

  That's us right now, and that's what we do on our job every day.

• 17:35Josh Clark?

  Okay, yeah, but I feel like we're not that much different in real life.

• 17:39Speaker 02

  No, I think you're right. I mean, that's, that's one of the reasons this show works, I think, and why a lot of podcasts work is because people are their more true selves. But it's also sort of the best version of our true self. Like, we're not the jerks that we can be in real life.

• 17:51Josh Clark?

  Yeah, and that's a really great point that we'll see later. Like, just because you're doing this doesn't mean you're a phony or inauthentic. You're just drawing on the parts of yourself that are already there that apply to the situation best in presenting those.

• 18:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, totally. And I said, "we," I meant me. You're not a jerk, and so I'm just speaking for myself.

• 18:09Josh Clark?

  Hey, man, I'm always happy to be included with you. I'm along for the ride.

• 18:13Speaker 02

  Well, everybody can be like that here and there. That's all I'm saying.

• 18:16Josh Clark?

  Right, right. I know what you're saying. You don't have to explain it to me.

• 18:19Speaker 02

  All right. I was explaining it to everyone else. Didn't think I was just dragging you down with me.

• 18:24Josh Clark?

  So you've got front stage selves. Either this is when you're, you're onstage, you're really out there. There's backstage when you're hanging with your homies.

• 18:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, have a cigarette?

• 18:33Josh Clark?

  Homeboys.

• 18:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 18:35Josh Clark?

  Homegirls.

• 18:36Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 18:37Josh Clark?

  Yeah, and just general homies. Maybe your family, if you get along with your family, and you might feel comfortable and calm around them, so that would be your backstage self.

• 18:45Speaker 02

  Nice caveat.

• 18:46Josh Clark?

  But note this, he's not saying your front stage self and then yourself. It's still a backstage self. You're still attached to the stage. You're still in the theater.

• 18:58Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 18:59Josh Clark?

  Even when you're hanging out with your homies.

• 19:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's true. And then there's the offstage, and that is when it's just one-on-one.

• 19:05Josh Clark?

  This is the best.

• 19:07Speaker 02

  And that's still a kind of performance.

• 19:09Josh Clark?

  Yeah, this example is just so, it just nails it. When you're a teacher and you see your student at the grocery store.

• 19:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, see him I R L.

• 19:19Josh Clark?

  That's like, that's such a jarring thing to see as a kid.

• 19:24Speaker 02

  Oh, man. And it's thrilling, it's exciting because they don't exist outside of that role.

• 19:29Josh Clark?

  No, exactly. So now you see them and they're not dressed like they normally are.

• 19:34Speaker 02

  Oh, man.

• 19:34Josh Clark?

  Friendly to your mom or something like that. They're, and then they're buying olives too. And they look like they're really into the, to figuring out which olives they want, right? So that's just for the kid. For the teacher, you still have to comport yourself in a way that's like, you know, I'm not going to just start cussing in front of the student and just talk like I might normally talk. I still have to pretend or act like I do when I'm this kid's teacher. But that's still, it's like, it doesn't necessarily fit the grocery store stage. So that teacher's in a really weird position right then. That would be off-stage interactions.

• 20:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, for sure.

• 20:13Josh Clark?

  I love that one.

• 20:15Speaker 02

  Time for a break?

• 20:16Josh Clark?

  Yes.

• 20:17Speaker 02

  All right, we're just getting cooking, everybody. So come back more if you want to learn more about yourself, right after this.

• 20:33Speaker 04

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• 20:36Josh Clark?

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• 20:38Speaker 02

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• 21:02Josh Clark?

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• 21:25Josh Clark?

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• 21:36Josh Clark?

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• 22:53Speaker 02

  All right, so one of the keys to Goffman's theory is how important it is to avoid being embarrassed or embarrassing others. He talked about facework, like saving face or losing face, not wanting to be embarrassed. But also, he wrote about just your facial expressions, especially in terms of how you disagree with somebody. Even if you say the words that you think are the right way to disagree with someone, but your face says WTF, like, that conveys a confusing message. So even the facial expressions you make have to be considered.

• 23:27Josh Clark?

  Yeah, it's that speech plus nonverbal that equals your performance, right? Yeah, it's funny to see people who are trying to say something, but their facial expression just doesn't match up.

• 23:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, that's a problem I've had to work on in my own marriage with not being the best communicator, which, you know, which is Emily being like, well, you're saying one thing, but that's not what I'm getting.

• 23:49Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 23:49Speaker 02

  And I'm like, ah.

• 23:50Josh Clark?

  Yeah. No, I don't want to play Red Dead Redemption.

• 23:53Speaker 02

  Oh, well, that's always true. The opposite, that is.

• 23:57Josh Clark?

  Right. So the other point of that, in addition to that nonverbal use of face, you said also you're trying to help people save face, right? So I said earlier that you might be forced into a social, to act in a social situation a certain way, just because you don't want to freak out your friend's mom who you saw at the mall by acting bizarrely or, you know, in a different way than you should. Similarly, if your friend's mom at the mall falls, like slips and falls in the middle of the mall and is embarrassed, you're going to do something that, your performance calls for you to do something to help her save face as well. That's part of face work, too.

• 24:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, for sure. And face work is another dramatic term.

• 24:41Josh Clark?

  Oh, is it? I didn't know that.

• 24:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think face work and body work, that's all a drama thing.

• 24:46Josh Clark?

  That makes sense. Is there a third?

• 24:47Speaker 02

  Learning how to move within your space. Uh, yeah, private parts work.

• 24:51Josh Clark?

  That's awesome.

• 24:53Speaker 02

  So to Goffman, it's, you know, it could be an obvious thing, like if you're, you know, on a first date or something like that, or like you mentioned earlier, a job interview, like that's the super obvious situation, but a lot, a lot of times, it's, you know, it's really everyday interactions still count. And there's a philosopher named Lucy McDonald, who was writing about, like, when somebody falls down in public, almost always, the very first thing that'll happen is that person will look around to see if anyone saw them. And based on that, it's going to change their reaction. And it reminded me of that story I've told before about in college, when I saw the guy bust, bust his butt on a bike in Athens.

• 25:34Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 25:34Speaker 02

  And the books went spilling all over the sidewalk, and this dude just opened one of the books laying on his side with his bike wheel spinning, acting like he was reading it.

• 25:42Josh Clark?

  Mm-hmm.

• 25:43Speaker 02

  And it's one of the funniest things I've ever seen. And then the other day on my new bike, I tried to do a wheel slide in a gravel parking lot. And I busted my butt and fell. I didn't go, you know, ass over apple cart, but I hit the dirt. And the first thing I did as a 54 year old was look up and see if anybody saw me.

• 26:04Josh Clark?

  You didn't jump up and say, I meant to do that?

• 26:06Speaker 02

  Well, if somebody had been, had seen me, I would have, but nobody saw me. So I just sat there and was like, oh, nuts.

• 26:13Josh Clark?

  Right. So if you do that, like, say, if people do see you, you might like, look back like closely at the ground. What did I flip over?

• 26:20Speaker 02

  What's wrong with this bike?

• 26:21Josh Clark?

  Or you might say like, I hate Mondays or something like that. And what you're doing is something you mentioned earlier. You're reassuring people like, I'm not a threat to you or to the social order. That was just a total accident.

• 26:35Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 26:36Josh Clark?

  And it might seem like that person is overly self-conscious or something like that, or they might be a little neurotic. I feel like they have to do that.

• 26:44Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 26:44Josh Clark?

  But the philosopher Lucy McDonald that you mentioned also points out that that's actually not what's going on. That everybody feels like they need to do that and that it's a rational response to the social expectations that we have of one another. So it just kind of reveals this social intelligence that that most people have that is, you don't even know that you're doing in a lot of cases. And that you feel even compelled to do internally. Like when I do that, if I'm so embarrassed, I will blurt something out. Like oops, or I hate Mondays. And it feels like it's coming up from, you know, my guts. And then out of my mouth, like it's not something where I'm like, I better say something really quick.

• 27:29Josh Clark?

  It's just a involuntary reaction essentially because it's so ingrained.

• 27:35Speaker 02

  Yeah. Cause you're not a sociopath.

• 27:37Josh Clark?

  Yeah, I like to think so.

• 27:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, I like to think so, too. It's funny thinking about that guy in Athens that fell. He didn't even look around because it wasn't like, oh, did someone see me? Because hundreds of people for sure saw him.

• 27:49Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 27:50Speaker 02

  It was like a crowded campus, so I felt bad for the guy. But it was hysterical. And one day, I'm gonna meet that person, I think.

• 27:55Josh Clark?

  Yeah, I wonder what he's doing now.

• 27:58Speaker 02

  Can you imagine if I was at a party one day and somebody was telling that story? Like, one time in college, I wrecked my bike and acted like I was reading a book?

• 28:05Josh Clark?

  What would you do? Would you buy him something?

• 28:07Speaker 02

  I would hug him immediately and be like, I saw that. And I've been telling that story for 40 years.

• 28:13Josh Clark?

  That's great.

• 28:14Speaker 02

  Forty? No, not even, 30.

• 28:16Josh Clark?

  Yeah, 30 is about right.

• 28:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 28:18Josh Clark?

  And he would be like, I'm not a hugger.

• 28:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, then I've screwed up yet again.

• 28:24Josh Clark?

  So I said that when people fall and they're saying like, oops, or I hate Mondays, or they're looking at the crack, or they're going through their book, whatever, they're reassuring people that they're actually normal. And the norm in countries like the US, say, in the West, is what's called civil inattention. To where you, ideally, you acknowledge the presence, the existence of another person, say that you're on a subway with.

• 28:57Speaker 02

  And that's where it ends.

• 28:58Josh Clark?

  And then, yeah, it ends there, right? Something that I find dismaying is I see more and more, that acknowledgement doesn't even happen. It's just totally ignoring one another. And that, man, that gets me. Especially if you nod at somebody else and they just ignore you. I think that is awful.

• 29:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, not to be old man here, but cell phones and smartphones have definitely played a part in that, I think, because people escape into the comfort of like, well, I'll just look at this instead.

• 29:28Josh Clark?

  Yeah, yeah, and they're just like, oh, what's on my phone?

• 29:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, if you were raised in the South or have lived in the South, then you're more comfortable with more acknowledgement and maybe even a brief conversation with a stranger.

• 29:42Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 29:43Speaker 02

  That can be very off-putting for people that aren't used to that. So I try to remember that when I am in a, maybe I've had a drink or two and I struck up a conversation with someone I don't know.

• 29:52Josh Clark?

  On an elevator?

• 29:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, I've done that, too. I did it last week, in fact.

• 29:57Josh Clark?

  So, speaking of elevators, Chuck, you've mentioned going into an elevator and turning around.

• 30:04Josh Clark?

  And what a violation of the social order that is. The elevator is this perfect little encapsulation for sociologists.

• 30:12Speaker 02

  No, man.

• 30:12Josh Clark?

  To study because we just know what to do. When somebody gets on an elevator and there's already people on there. Everybody spreads out, rearranges himself to make room for this person and their personal space. And it's not like we're like, okay, I'm going to go over here, you go here. And then when somebody, the next person comes on, you get off and then this person's going to go where you were. It just happens and it's a beautiful synchronized effort, right?

• 30:39Speaker 02

  It really is.

• 30:40Josh Clark?

  But when sociologists get on elevators and they turn around, there's an apocryphal story about Irving Goffman doing that and studying and people just flipping out by.

• 30:52Speaker 02

  No, they don't turn around. They just go straight in and stand there looking at the rear.

• 30:55Josh Clark?

  Yeah, yes, exactly. Yeah. Right. Well put. So that's actually not just what sociologists like to do. It was like a big one on Candid Camera back in the day for a while.

• 31:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 31:07Josh Clark?

  And there was one Candid Camera episode where they did the opposite. Where the elevator was already, had a bunch of people on it, but they were facing the rear when the doors opened.

• 31:18Speaker 02

  Oh, wow.

• 31:19Josh Clark?

  And the person who was being, I guess, pranked came on.

• 31:22Speaker 02

  I wouldn't get on that elevator car.

• 31:24Josh Clark?

  So this person, they got on and they kind of looked like they didn't know what to do for a second. And then they turned and they faced the rear.

• 31:31Speaker 02

  I knew it. Wow. That's incredible.

• 31:33Josh Clark?

  Yeah, it's almost like they thought that they hadn't gotten the revised script pages that day. And everybody else did, so they just needed to go along with it because they didn't want to upset the apple cart. Things had changed. This is not what they expected, but they weren't about to be the one who just stuck to the original norm and upset everybody else.

• 31:51Speaker 02

  Wow. Did they yell out, can I have the new sides, please?

• 31:54Josh Clark?

  Yeah, exactly.

• 31:55Speaker 02

  Someone to fly those in?

• 31:56Josh Clark?

  Line.

• 31:58Speaker 02

  That's really funny and that doesn't surprise me. And I bet the live audience at Candid Camera just got a big old, who'd he laugh on that one?

• 32:05Josh Clark?

  Man, that Alan font.

• 32:07Speaker 02

  So there was a guy named Harold Garfinkel, another sociologist that would, I mean, he called them breaching experiments, but it's really messing with people. And he did things like that, like sit down on the escalator, or just like point at somebody. And I'm not a big fan of those kind of experiments.

• 32:24Josh Clark?

  No, but they're, they're all over YouTube, people doing that.

• 32:28Speaker 02

  I bet.

• 32:29Josh Clark?

  It's pretty funny. But yeah, if you're ever in a mall and somebody sits down in an escalator, whatever, it's probably a sociologist.

• 32:36Speaker 02

  Yeah. If not, just politely go in the other direction.

• 32:39Josh Clark?

  Well, no, that's why you carry a water gun around with you. You just squirt them in the face a few times and say, stand up.

• 32:46Speaker 02

  Super soaker.

• 32:48Josh Clark?

  So there's ways that we figure out how to perform. Because like I said, a lot of it just seems ingrained. A lot of it requires thought, too, especially if you're trying, if you have a goal, like you're trying to become a member of a country club, which, you know, everybody's been through that.

• 33:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 33:06Josh Clark?

  And these two researchers, they were psychologists back in 1990, Mark Leary and Robin Kowalski, they basically figured out how we do this kind of stuff. And they broke it into two things. There was impression motivation, why you're doing this, and impression construction, how you're doing this.

• 33:25Speaker 02

  Yeah. And as far as motivation, it's based on a few factors. One is how relevant a person thinks their image is to achieve this goal. So in other words, does it really matter here how I'm acting to get what I want? How valuable the goal is, which is, do I, this is something I really want? Am I trying to get a job? Or just whatever, something a little less stakes? And then finally, the extent to which they believe they're not currently being perceived in the most useful way. In other words, how much do I need to pour it on here to get what I want?

• 33:55Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 33:55Speaker 02

  Like, how am I being perceived? And then what do I need to do to change that?

• 33:58Josh Clark?

  Right, exactly. So you put all those together, and that's your motivation for figuring out some impression management. Again, this is the ones where you're like actually giving thought to it.

• 34:08Speaker 02

  Right.

• 34:09Josh Clark?

  In impression construction, how you actually carry this stuff out, they broke into five little parts. One is your self-concept, right? So you're gonna base how you carry this out on how you feel you are. So you're trying, you're starting with your authentic self, ideally, right? Because people value authenticity. People don't wanna just keep up a lie. Again, that's a half hour sitcom right there. Because it always crumbles. It always crumbles, everybody, in real life and on sitcoms.

• 34:43Speaker 02

  In 22 minutes, and then it gets resolved.

• 34:46Josh Clark?

  Right, exactly. So your self-concept is where you're gonna start, and you're going to kind of draw from that. Imagine a big steamer trunk onstage, that Carrot Top's going through, just pulling a bunch of props out of. That's what you're doing when you first start to figure this out. That's going through the steamer trunk of your self-concept.

• 35:08Speaker 02

  Wait a minute. Are you saying right now, we are Carrot Top?

• 35:12Josh Clark?

  The entire world is. All the world's a stage, and we are merely Carrot Top.

• 35:19Speaker 02

  Carrot Tops. Then there's the desired identity. So you're trying to protect an identity, and you base that on what like, what you, what you want people to think you like and don't like, or what you wanna be or don't wanna be.

• 35:36Josh Clark?

  Right. So you might really try to distance yourself from something you don't wanna identify with.

• 35:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, like, oh, boy, how about that John Legend?

• 35:48Josh Clark?

  That was random.

• 35:49Speaker 02

  And all that immense talent, like, get over it, buddy.

• 35:52Josh Clark?

  You wanna be very careful with this. This is one of those things that shows what a tightrope you can be walking when you're purposefully constructing impression management. If you're, in that case, yucking someone's yum, that can turn people off and ruin all of the other stuff that you just did. So it can backfire.

• 36:09Speaker 02

  Someone opens up their jacket and they're wearing the John Legend shirt.

• 36:12Josh Clark?

  Right. Or you accidentally say it to John Legend because you didn't recognize him.

• 36:16Speaker 02

  Yeah. I don't know why I pulled him out. I know nothing much about him, other than La La Land and the fact that he's super talented.

• 36:22Josh Clark?

  Yeah. No, he was perfect. I mean, totally neutral. Everybody loves him. Like, it was just, that was great. Non-controversial in almost any way.

• 36:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, all right.

• 36:32Josh Clark?

  He's managed to distance himself from his wife's public persona. So, yeah, non-controversial.

• 36:37Speaker 02

  Who is she?

• 36:39Josh Clark?

  Chrissy Teigen?

• 36:40Speaker 02

  Oh, I know that name, but I don't know much about her either.

• 36:43Josh Clark?

  That's fine.

• 36:44Speaker 02

  All right, moving on.

• 36:45Josh Clark?

  Yeah, so the next one is target value, and it's basically saying like you're just going to take those things from your steamer trunk of your authentic self, and you're going to adorn yourself with the ones that make the most sense for this identity that you're trying to be viewed with.

• 37:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, but based on what you think they want, right?

• 37:06Josh Clark?

  Yeah, but again, this is not where you're just like, you know, stealing stuff from other people and making it your own. You're going, ideally, you're going into your own authentic self and saying, this one makes the most sense to what this person's going to expect or want.

• 37:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly. Like aligning yourself with someone else's values, ideally stopping short of like, you know, doing something that's not inauthentic.

• 37:31Josh Clark?

  Yeah, and there's one thing I think we should say at this point, because it's really easy to just assume like this is what everybody should be doing, and I think it's worth questioning. It's not inherently a good thing to change yourself or to rearrange yourself. It can be a bad thing, but it can also be a good thing, too. So just know, we're not saying like, you should be out doing this. You should really be thinking about what you have inside yourself that you can impress other people with. That's not what we're saying, but people do do that, and that falls under the umbrella of impression management.

• 38:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, we're saying this is what Leary and Kowalski have noticed happens.

• 38:08Josh Clark?

  Yeah, blame it on them.

• 38:10Speaker 02

  And the rain. And then there's current, oh, I'm sorry, I skipped one, didn't I? Role constraints, presenting yourself in a way that's, well, that's kind of the same thing as target value, except target value is a little less that I want to align myself with what you may be into.

• 38:25Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 38:26Speaker 02

  And a little more of just like, the general expectations of a social role.

• 38:30Josh Clark?

  Right. Like you would wear a top hat and a monocle to a meeting with a bunch of bankers, because that's what they would expect you to do.

• 38:37Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 38:38Josh Clark?

  And then there's current social image, which is what you perceive of yourself and if other people, if you think other people perceive you in a way you don't like.

• 38:48Speaker 02

  Yeah. There are some other techniques that they've, you know, that people can use. Flattery, of course, will get you everywhere. Ingratiation, stuff like that. Conforming to expectations, that's kind of like, you know, the other stuff, I think, like role constraints and stuff like that. And then a big one is like suppressing your emotion and maintaining your self-control. Like, again, that doesn't mean to be inauthentic, but that just means like, read the room. Is it time for me to be overly emotional about something, or is it not? Do I need to kind of put a lid on that for now?

• 39:21Josh Clark?

  Yeah. If you're triggered and you have a temper because people are taking too long in the grocery store line, don't push a whole load of groceries back into an aisle and shout a curse word and storm out.

• 39:33Speaker 02

  No.

• 39:35Josh Clark?

  I've seen it in real life, actually.

• 39:37Speaker 02

  Oh, I'm sure.

• 39:38Josh Clark?

  It's like, what? What is going on, buddy?

• 39:42Speaker 02

  It's hard to not think just constantly what's wrong with people. But you know what? The fact is, again, as I get older, there's a lot wrong with a lot of people. So I try to keep that in mind.

• 39:50Josh Clark?

  Yeah. Everybody's got some sort of burden they're carrying, and some people are more vocal about it than others, I guess.

• 39:57Speaker 02

  That's a very nice way to say it.

• 39:58Josh Clark?

  Some people misproject it in the wrong way, more loudly than others.

• 40:03Speaker 02

  That's another way to say it.

• 40:05Josh Clark?

  There's also one called basking in reflected glory, which is basically like hanging out with somebody who's a great example of the kind of self you want to be identified as.

• 40:16Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 40:17Josh Clark?

  Not necessarily good. It's much better to blaze your own trail, make your own version, but I kind of, I get it. The one that's just not good at all is the downward comparison, which is putting someone down to show that you're not like them at all.

• 40:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's not a good thing to do. And again, all of this convey, like to convey all this stuff, you gotta have a pretty good cognitive empathy and pretty good self-monitoring. You gotta be able to read the room, read social cues, regulate your emotions. And again, I think this is why people with like a narcissistic personality disorder may have a harder time, may have more difficulty doing stuff like this.

• 40:56Josh Clark?

  For sure.

• 40:57Speaker 02

  Another break?

• 40:58Josh Clark?

  We're 40 minutes in, let's take our second break.

• 41:01Speaker 02

  All right, we'll be back. This is gonna be a little beefy, guys, but we're into it.

• 41:17Josh Clark?

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• 41:35Speaker 02

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• 41:50Josh Clark?

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• 42:02Speaker 02

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• 42:34Josh Clark?

  Okay Chuck, so just real quick before we keep going on, it's worth mentioning that forming an online identity is essentially, it's like a whole new can of worms.

• 42:44Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 42:45Josh Clark?

  As far as sociology is concerned. We just couldn't do it before, and it allows you to do things, try on new things in ways that we, it was just impossible to previously.

• 42:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, for sure. But yeah, that could be a shorty or something on its own, huh?

• 42:59Josh Clark?

  Uh huh, for sure.

• 43:00Speaker 02

  Should we talk about authenticity though, a little more?

• 43:03Josh Clark?

  Yeah, because again, this is, everybody wants to be viewed as authentic. And just the fact that you've realized now that you're performing at all times can make you feel like you're not authentic, but we're here to tell you you're still authentic.

• 43:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, for sure. There have been researchers that, I mean, it kind of depends. You can, there are a lot of ways to, I don't like saying "skin a cat" anymore. To tackle the cat, no. There's a lot of ways to pet the cat.

• 43:27Josh Clark?

  We're not, we're not saying "skin the cat" anymore?

• 43:31Speaker 02

  I don't know. I mean, it just occurred to me. That's a pretty horrific thing to think about.

• 43:35Josh Clark?

  Yeah, I don't know where that came from, but sure.

• 43:37Speaker 02

  Neither.

• 43:37Josh Clark?

  I guess I can get on board with that.

• 43:39Speaker 02

  All right. There's a lot of ways to pet a cat. Actually, there's only one way, and that's with the grain. But anyway.

• 43:44Josh Clark?

  How about skin your knee?

• 43:46Speaker 02

  Sure. There's a lot of ways to skin your knee. Like a fifty-four-year-old wrecking his new BMX bike.

• 43:52Josh Clark?

  Exactly.

• 43:54Speaker 02

  Some people say there's a real distinction between self-presentation, which is like the influence that you're feeling by pressure and the effort that you're putting out. And then self-expression, which is your authentic self. But there are psychologists, or I'm sorry, I guess psychologists in this case, a guy named Barry R. Schlinker, who says that actually self-presentation is, everyone does it in all social interactions. Like even if you're married, you're influencing each other and behaving in a certain way. It may not even require like attention and probably doesn't if you're married. But it doesn't mean you're being inauthentic if you're still doing that kind of within your marriage.

• 44:34Josh Clark?

  No, and even like within yourself, like when we did the inner dialogue episode, we talked at some point about how even when you're talking to yourself, that inner voice is often shaped by external forces. And some sociologists say, yeah, even, it goes even that far. That's how far the self is shaped by these scripts and these performances and everything that even when you're alone, you still might find yourself engaging in some performance or another.

• 45:08Speaker 02

  Yeah. And the stuff that we feel like is automatic, and you kind of touched on this earlier, is maybe not automatic. You may not even realize that this is stuff that you've been practicing your whole life. I think anyone who's ever had a kid has seen that kid like practicing faces in the mirror. There's some, I mean, a very tropey movie scene is someone who practices a scene in the mirror of like interacting with someone. Like, oh, let me get that chair for you and practicing a smile. I mean, Nathan Fielder has a whole show about this called The Rehearsal. It's fascinating.

• 45:40Josh Clark?

  Yeah, I love that guy.

• 45:42Speaker 02

  Are you watching the new season yet?

• 45:43Josh Clark?

  No, no. Is that the one that's an actual, like, it's fiction?

• 45:48Speaker 02

  No, no, no. That was the one he did with Emma Stone. This is the rehearsal, season two, which is he sets up these elaborate rehearsals for everyday life stuff.

• 45:57Josh Clark?

  Okay.

• 45:58Speaker 02

  You should check out season one and then just steamroll into season two. It's fascinating sociological stuff.

• 46:03Josh Clark?

  Nice. I definitely will.

• 46:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 46:06Josh Clark?

  Do you ever rehearse what you're going to say? I know you rehearse like what you're doing next. Like if you're cooking something, you've said that before. But do you ever like practice in your head what you're gonna say? Like even mundane stuff, like what am I gonna say to this convenience store clerk when I go to check out?

• 46:23Speaker 02

  No, all that stuff is pretty innate for me.

• 46:26Josh Clark?

  That's very lucky.

• 46:28Speaker 02

  But again, maybe innate from years and years of practice.

• 46:31Josh Clark?

  Yeah, it's possible. Or maybe you were just born with it. Maybe it's Maybelline. So you mentioned the automatic stuff that is essentially breathing. Like if you look at how Schlenker describes it, he's describing the same thing as breathing. Like it's just that automatic. And that automatic mode can be in a like high gear or low gear. Typically, if you're backstage, hanging out with your friends, embarrassment. Again, the driver here is preventing embarrassment. Preventing from embarrassing yourself, preventing embarrassing other people or making them feel embarrassed by association. Like you're preventing embarrassment.

• 47:14Josh Clark?

  And one of the reasons why it's easier to hang out with people in your backstage mode is because the stakes are low. If you embarrass yourself, it doesn't matter nearly as much as if you embarrass yourself, you know, if you pee your pants in a job interview.

• 47:29Speaker 02

  Yeah. Although the funny ironic thing for us is, and I believe anyone that performs on stage, literally backstage sometimes can be some of the most anxious when people are sent back there like, you know, oh, the company wants to send back these strangers you don't know.

• 47:42Josh Clark?

  I hate this.

• 47:44Speaker 02

  That's the, almost the height for me of like, oh, boy, here, I gotta turn on the Chuck, you know?

• 47:50Josh Clark?

  Yeah, and I just want to apologize for the group of Citibank cardholders from like 10 years ago who we had a meet and greet with, and it was very awkward. So sorry, guys. We never really got to say sorry.

• 48:03Speaker 02

  That's why we don't do meet and greets anymore. It's just, yeah, we just want to be backstage with our homies.

• 48:08Josh Clark?

  Exactly. Um, so there's also, we can also automatically go into a much more performative mode when the stakes get a little higher.

• 48:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 48:20Josh Clark?

  But either way, it's still automatic. So Schlenker is like, no, we're really kind of performing almost at all times. And then there was a scholar of gender named Judith Butler, and by was, I mean is. And Judith Butler said, everything about you is shaped by sociological forces, including, including gender, that people learn how to behave according to what society says their gender is, or what's expected of that gender. And that, that, that's just how we learn to behave certain ways according to gender.

• 49:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, I'm sure there are plenty of grown men who have a story where they're like, when I was in the third grade, I played with dolls and I got made fun of. And because that wasn't the socially acceptable, you know, masculine construct. And from that day forward, I started doing things to where I fit in a little more on the playground. And that shapes how they are, you know, decades later, sometimes.

• 49:24Josh Clark?

  Right, yeah, it carried over from the playground into the rest of their life.

• 49:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, and this stuff is all changing for the better, I think, but it's still, it's not like it's been eradicated, you know?

• 49:33Josh Clark?

  Yeah, and speaking of gender too, I wondered if, you know how some people are just deeply offended by people who are gender fluid, like to the point where you're like, what? You don't even know this person, why do you hate this so much? It made me wonder, like, if, if the person who's so offended by it is upset because that other person is flagrantly violating a social script and it's making them and other people uncomfortable. And it, that brings up a further point too, who's, which is more valuable? That person's authentic self, that they're gender fluid? Or the comfort of everybody else, the strangers around them? Which one is more valuable? Who should win out in that case if there's a conflict like that?

• 50:14Speaker 02

  Absolutely. I mean sadly, stuff like that is being literally litigated, but also the idea of changing social norms and, you know, if you're not rolling with the changes that are happening in society, you may find yourself on an island of inacceptance and loneliness. But that may be fine with you because you may want to be like, no, things were better the old way.

• 50:39Josh Clark?

  At the same time, too, you can't change social norms without violating them. They tend to just kind of stay static and to make them dynamic, they have to be violated. And anyone who's seen the movie Pleasantville knows that that can turn out pretty good.

• 50:53Speaker 02

  You may end up in color one day.

• 50:58Josh Clark?

  Man, that was a good movie.

• 50:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, that was pretty good. I haven't seen that in a while.

• 51:01Josh Clark?

  Yeah, I saw it a couple of years ago. I watch it every couple of years.

• 51:05Speaker 02

  Oh, okay. I've only seen it once.

• 51:07Josh Clark?

  Oh, you should keep watching. Just buy the DVD. Go old school.

• 51:11Speaker 02

  All right. I mean, there's a lot of movies that kind of dance around this stuff like The Truman Show and just, you know, I feel like this is just rife ground for comedy and drama.

• 51:20Josh Clark?

  I agree, Chuck.

• 51:21Speaker 02

  Rife? Ripe? Right.

• 51:23Josh Clark?

  Purple.

• 51:25Speaker 02

  So, you know, I mentioned neurodivergence earlier and just sort of my, and, you know, when I was doing this research, I had that awakening of like, yeah, I've been much more cognizant of that kind of stuff as I've gotten older. And that stuff is more in the forefront and diagnosed more and more about like, understanding that, hey, that person that I think is like, man, read the room, why are you acting like that? They may have something going on neurodivergently. There may be a genuine mental illness there. Goffman argued that if you have a mental illness or any sort of thing, a disability, or if you're unhoused, or you're obese, or

• 52:05Speaker 02

  a drug user, that all just lumps you in as a, as a, as a thing. I mean, a stigma, which we're going to talk more about in a second, basically, but, and ends up sort of creating the symptom of that thing just because you're put in that box.

• 52:20Josh Clark?

  Yeah. And so anybody who's, who has a social stigma, like you just mentioned, you rattled off that list, they're what Goffman called discredited. They don't have, they're not, they have less value according to society. And if you, this is where he developed that empathy from researching this stuff.

• 52:39Speaker 02

  I bet.

• 52:39Josh Clark?

  Especially based on something like someone's ethnicity, or whether they're handicapped, or whether they're homeless, or whatever. That, that, the idea that they have less value, socially speaking, in, in this, in this sense, is totally unfair, because the social norms that we create are generally arbitrary.

• 52:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, for sure. And, and not all cases, but you, impression management is, is a, is a tool that people can use to get over or hide those stigmatized features. I, I mean, we can't get super into code switching, but that could be a, a pretty interesting shortstop to accompany this, I think.

• 53:20Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 53:22Speaker 02

  That is the idea, and it's not specific to the African-American community, but it is, if, if you talk to a group of African-Americans in, in the United States today, or, you know, for many years now, they will say, no, code switching is how we get by in white America, basically. And that's the idea, that you may change the way you talk when you're around white people, or change the way you act than you normally would when you're in, you know, around your family and friends, or your own community. And that's a, that's a big, big thing.

• 53:52Josh Clark?

  Yeah, and that's a great example of it. You could also be like, my last name sounds pretty ethnic, and I want to change it so that people call me back for job interviews. There's a lot of stuff you can do, so you're not, you're covering your stigma, so you're not an automatically discredited person. But according to Goffman, you're discredited a bull. If you're found out, you will be stigmatized.

• 54:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, for sure.

• 54:16Josh Clark?

  It's a terrible situation all around, just to stigmatize groups based on arbitrary social norms. I hate it.

• 54:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, I, I remember in elementary school, I'm not gonna name her name, name, because I don't know if she would want this out there, but there was a, a girl from, you know, an Indian-American girl in our school that came back after a summer with an Americanized first name. And so, she was that from 4th grade till senior in high school, when we graduated together. And I lost touch with her, and like, 5 or 6 years ago, my good friend in Boston said, oh, well, so-and-so's in town. I said, oh, is she going by that name now, again? And she went back to her, you know, she grew up a little bit, and was like, no, that is, that's my name, that's my Indian name. And it just made me feel really good that, that she reached that point, you know?

• 55:02Josh Clark?

  Good for her.

• 55:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, it was great. So, at, you know, the furthest end of this... I guess spectrum is autism, and we've talked about autism here and there. But a lot of times, if you have autism, you might have difficulty responding in what people might consider an appropriate way in a social situation. And masking is a big, can be a big part of self-presentation when it comes to people with autism.

• 55:27Josh Clark?

  Yes, but there's autism researchers Amy Pearson and Kieran Rose, and they make, they go to great pains to basically say masking is different than impression management.

• 55:38Speaker 02

  Right.

• 55:39Josh Clark?

  Impression management is something everyone has to do. Masking is specific to typically neurodivergent people to where they are protecting themselves by pushing down their actual identities and hiding it at all costs because they're afraid of being stigmatized, because they've been taught over the years that that's not, they're not acceptable as they are. And so those are, those are two really different things, even though they seem pretty, like they have a lot in common.

• 56:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, for sure. And masking, you know, there are all kinds of people who mask. We talked about that in the sociopath episode, once again, and got emails from people that are like, "I'm a sociopath and I put on a big performance so people don't know that."

• 56:23Josh Clark?

  Yeah, yeah, they're just always walking around like, "I love you, man."

• 56:27Speaker 02

  Right, yeah.

• 56:28Josh Clark?

  Just one note about autism, which obviously deserves its own episode, still coming down the pike one day, don't worry about that. But you were talking about just kind of learning as you get older, you know, that, that you can't just, you can't just make assumptions about people based on their ability to interact socially.

• 56:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 56:48Josh Clark?

  If you want to develop a familiarity and empathy for people with autism, I think you could do a lot worse than starting with Love on the Spectrum, all seasons, Australian version and American version.

• 57:03Speaker 02

  I think that is very sweet, because that is like the fifth time you've recommended that show to people.

• 57:08Josh Clark?

  People need to watch the show, it's so great. This season in America deserves an Emmy. It's a masterpiece.

• 57:15Speaker 02

  I've still never seen it.

• 57:17Josh Clark?

  You really should, I think you'd love it.

• 57:18Speaker 02

  All right.

• 57:20Josh Clark?

  So I guess Chuck, since I did my every 10th episode mention of Love on the Spectrum, it's time for listener mail.

• 57:32Speaker 02

  Hey, guys. I love the show. This is about popcorn, by the way.

• 57:35Josh Clark?

  Okay.

• 57:37Speaker 02

  Just finished the podcast on popcorn. It reminds me of a segment I saw years ago on Alton Brown's Good Eats. Alton Brown, Atlanta, and I did a little work on that show back in the day. I was a props guy.

• 57:47Josh Clark?

  Nice.

• 57:49Speaker 02

  While not directly related to popcorn, and Alton was a good dude to work with, by the way.

• 57:52Josh Clark?

  Nice.

• 57:53Speaker 02

  While not directly related to popcorn in this particular episode, the show's resident food anthropologist related a factoid on Montezuma's revenge. They thought Montezuma's real revenge was allowing the conquering Spaniards to return to Spain with maize without the knowledge of nictomalization, which resulted in widespread pelagra, or pellagra, causing dermatitis, diarrhea, dementia, and eventual death due to a lack of essential nutrients, niacin and tryptophan, in their diets. Nictomalization is a traditional Mesoamerican process used to prepare maize and other grains for consumption involving cooking the grain in an alkaline solution, typically lime water, which then allows for the outer pericarp, the skin,

• 58:35Speaker 02

  to be easily removed. The process significantly improves the digestibility and nutritional value of the grain. And that is from Bob.

• 58:43Josh Clark?

  Bob, that was a great email.

• 58:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 58:45Josh Clark?

  A top-notch one. I'm just gonna go ahead and say it.

• 58:48Speaker 02

  Agreed.

• 58:49Josh Clark?

  If you want to be like Bob and send us a really interesting, top-notch email, we love that kind of thing, you can send it off to [email protected].

• 59:01Speaker 03

  Stuff You Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts, iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

• 59:17Josh Clark?

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• 1:00:43Josh Clark?

  Listen to Voices of Vivgard on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

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  This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.