Amanda Knox

Amanda Knox (The Twisted Tale of Amanda Knox) is an exoneree, author and producer. Amanda joins the Armchair Expert to discuss the human urge to find fault in others to exonerate ourselves, coming of age in the era of the Manic Pixie Dream Girl, and the personal journeys undertaken while studying abroad. Amanda and Dax talk about how people still have a hard time distinguishing when media is sensationalized, the vital distinction between an interview and an interrogation, and the deep, cartoonish misogyny endemic to her case. Amanda explains how comforting it is when people find her story relatable, the remaining sticking point with her prosecutor on facts versus interpretations, and the nuance in portrayal while making this show and what she needed to get perfectly right. Follow Armchair Expert on the Wondery App or wherever you get your podcasts. Watch new content on YouTube or listen to Armchair Expert early and ad-free by joining Wondery+ in the Wondery App, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify. Start your free trial by visiting wondery.com/links/armchair-expert-with-dax-shepard/ http://www.wondery.com/links/armchair-expert-with-dax-shepard/ now. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Dax Shepard?

  Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert. I'm Dax Shepard and I'm joined by Lily Padman.

• 0:04Speaker 01

  Hello.

• 0:05Dax Shepard?

  Today, we have Amanda Knox on. She's an exoneree, a journalist, a public speaker, author of the New York Times bestselling memoir, Waiting to be Heard, and host of the podcast Hard Knocks. She has a limited series coming out on Hulu that's based on her book, Waiting to be Heard: The Twisted Tale of Amanda Knox on Hulu now.

• 0:29Speaker 01

  Which we've both watched and it is, it is really good.

• 0:32Dax Shepard?

  Yes. I mean, this is one of the craziest stories you could ever hear. And even if you think you know the story, there's so much more that isn't in any of the docs that I've seen, isn't it, you know?

• 0:42Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 0:43Dax Shepard?

  There's a ton here. I really, really enjoyed meeting her and talking to her.

• 0:47Speaker 01

  Me too.

• 0:48Dax Shepard?

  I think when we saw the doc in 16, we were like, God, we would just kill to talk to her.

• 0:53Speaker 01

  Yes. Well, that's pun not intended.

• 0:55Dax Shepard?

  Pun not intended. Also, for anyone who loves best friend Erin Weekly, as I do.

• 1:01Speaker 01

  As we all do.

• 1:02Dax Shepard?

  And many people have been clamoring, which delights me, for a show with the two of us, building on Race to, whatever that was, 270. We're back at it and it starts tomorrow. It's called Mom's Car. And Erin and I drive around Los Angeles and we deliver food with a delivery service.

• 1:23Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:23Dax Shepard?

  And I have an account and I actually, we go pick up food and we meet strangers and we drop it off. And then we also have guests in the backseat, among which Lily Padman.

• 1:32Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 1:33Dax Shepard?

  Great episode. A great trick was played. It's so fun.

• 1:37Speaker 01

  It's really fun. It is a really fun thing to do.

• 1:40Dax Shepard?

  As I've been telling people, if you miss driving around in the car with your friends in high school, that's what this show is.

• 1:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:46Dax Shepard?

  And everyone that gets to come on it is like, oh my God, I feel like I was in high school driving around my mom's car.

• 1:51Speaker 01

  Super fun.

• 1:52Dax Shepard?

  So check that out. That's out tomorrow. It's on YouTube and it's everywhere you listen to podcasts.

• 1:56Speaker 01

  Go do it.

• 1:57Dax Shepard?

  Please enjoy Amanda Knox. We get support from Quince.

• 2:02Speaker 01

  Okay, can we talk about the fact that the holidays are already here? It's crazy. I feel like I blinked and now we're in gifting season, which I'm not really mad about because I do love giving gifts. And Quince is making it so easy to find something great for everyone on my list, including myself, because let's be honest, self-gifting is a love language.

• 2:21Dax Shepard?

  Quince is seriously the gift that keeps on giving. Their high-quality staples are made with premium materials like 100% Mongolian cashmere, 14-karat gold, and Italian leather. Full-on luxury quality at prices that won't wreck your holiday budget.

• 2:37Speaker 01

  It's the dream. The cashmere sweater is starting at $60. Down jackets, wool outerwear, cashmere accessories. You and everyone on your list are staying cozy and looking incredible all season long.

• 2:48Dax Shepard?

  Well, I'm gonna tell you this, it just got chilly for the first time this year in California, and I'm so excited, and I'm wearing my Quince cashmere right now.

• 2:55Speaker 01

  It's great.

• 2:56Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, and I am going to gift this to some of my friends. I hope they're not listening.

• 3:00Speaker 01

  Quince is also more than clothing. They've got fine jewelry for your significant other, leather bags for your bestie, hotel-quality bedding to set up your guest rooms, chef-grade cookware. That's an amazing thing they offer here, and it's such a good gift because people don't like buying cookware for themselves, but it's very important. And they also have five-star luggage, another good gift that people don't like buying for themselves.

• 3:23Dax Shepard?

  Give the gift of quality this holiday season. Download the Quince app for app-exclusive offers, or go to quince.com. Get free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK too. And when Quince asks where you heard about them, let them know it was Armchair Expert. It's the best way to support the show. This episode is supported by Helix.

• 3:47Speaker 01

  Okay, can we talk about how November is basically survival mode? Between the holidays, the travel, the hosting, the cooking, the everything. Sleep is the one thing keeping me from completely unraveling.

• 3:58Dax Shepard?

  It really is the foundation. And I think people underestimate how much a bad mattress is quietly ruining their day. You wake up stiff, your back's angry, you're already behind before your feet hit the floor.

• 4:09Speaker 01

  That was me before Helix. I took their sleep quiz, which is so fast. It took me like two minutes and they matched me to a mattress that actually fits how I sleep. Not a guess, not a firm or soft coin flip. It's a real match. I have a midnight mattress and I really like it. I was noticing it because I actually had to sleep in one of my other beds.

• 4:26Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 4:27Speaker 01

  Recently.

• 4:27Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 4:28Speaker 01

  That doesn't have a Helix mattress on it. And I really could tell a big difference in my sleep.

• 4:32Dax Shepard?

  Temperature was all over the map.

• 4:33Speaker 01

  It was a mess.

• 4:34Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 4:34Speaker 01

  I need a new one.

• 4:35Dax Shepard?

  Look, they've got over 20 mattress models. So whether you sleep hot, need extra back support, or you've got a partner who moves around all night, there's one built for you. Plus free shipping and a 365 night happy with Helix guarantee. That's a full year to decide.

• 4:50Speaker 01

  Helix has been named the most awarded mattress by Forbes, Wired and more. So it's not just us being enthusiastic, the experts agree.

• 4:56Dax Shepard?

  Right now, Helix is running their Black Friday sale with up to 30% off. Go to helixsleep.com/armchair for up to 30% off your Helix mattress. That's helixsleep.com/armchair for up to 30% off your Helix mattress. helixsleep.com/armchair.

• 5:32Speaker 01

  I have another.

• 5:33Dax Shepard?

  Oh, don't even worry about that. You can set it anywhere you want.

• 5:35Speaker 01

  All right.

• 5:35Dax Shepard?

  You can, you can light that on fire.

• 5:37Speaker 01

  Nice to meet you.

• 5:38Speaker 02

  Thanks so much. I have books for you both.

• 5:40Dax Shepard?

  Thank you. You would think we were highly literate.

• 5:44Speaker 01

  Thank you. I like that they're personalized.

• 5:47Dax Shepard?

  Me too. I hope it says something about my looks.

• 5:51Speaker 02

  Well, no.

• 5:52Dax Shepard?

  Oh, no.

• 5:53Speaker 02

  I haven't met you yet, so I can't say anything, really.

• 5:56Dax Shepard?

  Did you say anything about Monica's looks?

• 5:58Speaker 01

  No.

• 5:59Dax Shepard?

  You can tell from the picture.

• 6:00Speaker 01

  No, in person, I read much different. So, yeah, you should wait. You should wait till we have some time together.

• 6:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, maybe I can do a little epilogue to this.

• 6:08Dax Shepard?

  Now, here's an interesting part of our low self-esteem.

• 6:10Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 6:11Dax Shepard?

  Would you agree that you think you look better in real life than in pictures?

• 6:15Speaker 01

  Definitely, yes.

• 6:16Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, same. And I don't know, that seems incongruous with our low self-esteem.

• 6:19Speaker 01

  No, I think it's in keeping. I look at pictures and I'm like, this is disgusting. I hate this.

• 6:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, 100%.

• 6:27Speaker 01

  And then in real life, I'm like, I can, it's fine.

• 6:30Dax Shepard?

  How do you feel about yourself in pictures?

• 6:32Speaker 02

  What is my relationship to me in pictures?

• 6:35Speaker 01

  Good question.

• 6:36Dax Shepard?

  That felt calculated, but it was very organic.

• 6:39Speaker 01

  What?

• 6:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, I've had lots and lots of pictures taken of me.

• 6:43Speaker 01

  So many kinds.

• 6:44Dax Shepard?

  You're very well documented.

• 6:45Speaker 02

  I'm well documented in the worst of situations, worst psychological filter between me and the rest of the world.

• 6:54Dax Shepard?

  People don't look their best when they're panicked.

• 6:56Speaker 02

  Well, people don't look their best when there's literally an accusation between them and the rest of humanity, for sure.

• 7:03Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 7:03Speaker 02

  And I was just actually texting my friend before you got here about how it feels like my entire adult life, everyone's been trying to find something wrong with me. There's always this sense that like, there's some sort of fault. Something is not right, but no one can agree on what that is.

• 7:23Dax Shepard?

  Right, right, right.

• 7:23Speaker 02

  They're just like, we just know there's something wrong with her, so let's all talk about it.

• 7:28Speaker 01

  Let's figure it out together.

• 7:30Speaker 02

  Let's figure it out. That's the puzzle. What's wrong with Amanda Knox?

• 7:33Dax Shepard?

  Can we come to consensus?

• 7:34Speaker 01

  I think the reason people do that is because they're like, well, there has to be, because if there's not something wrong with her, then all of us are susceptible.

• 7:42Speaker 02

  Oh, my God.

• 7:43Speaker 01

  Yeah. Which the truth is, unfortunately, all of us are just susceptible.

• 7:47Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, we're incentivized to make you others so that we're not as panicked that something like this could happen to us.

• 7:51Speaker 02

  Right. And I think the other thing, and something I genuinely empathize with, is also the feeling of, oh, no, if she is actually not at Fault for any of it, then what does that say about all of us that we have spent the last nearly 20 years trying to demonize this person? Like, what does that mean? Why would we do that? We wouldn't do that. There must be something. Well, let's find the fault in her. And if only we could crack that nut, then everything makes sense.

• 8:18Dax Shepard?

  This sounds like a pat on the back to myself, but it's just the truth. I never, ever, ever once thought that. From the second I heard that, I was like, that seems insane.

• 8:27Speaker 01

  I will say, you are sort of rare, a rare bird, in that you actually do the opposite thing. Whatever everyone's doing, he's gonna do the opposite thing. So in this case, really good.

• 8:39Speaker 02

  A little bit like that, too, by the way.

• 8:41Dax Shepard?

  Explore that really passionately because I am very suspicious of kind of group think.

• 8:47Speaker 02

  And I think that that was one of the things where, early on, the juvenile part of me was like, oh, everyone is wearing like a Gucci belt. I'm gonna wear, you know, a Mexican sweater, you know? Like, I'm just gonna like be different just by default. And that ended up being translated into, oh, she's a weirdo. So what else could she be a weirdo about?

• 9:09Dax Shepard?

  Hopefully lots of stuff, but.

• 9:10Speaker 02

  Exactly. Well, you know, also, something I like to point out to people at the time is this is like 2007, 2008, 2009. I don't know if everyone recalls, but the manic pixie dream girl was a true fact.

• 9:22Dax Shepard?

  What's the manic pixie dream girl?

• 9:24Speaker 02

  Wait, you don't know the manic pixie dream girl?

• 9:27Dax Shepard?

  We were gonna have this episode about you, but fuck that. Let's do a pixie dream girl.

• 9:30Speaker 02

  It's a character. So during the 2000s, there was this idea. Zooey Deschanel is a good example of this. The beautiful oddball, the quirky cute girl who enters into the guy's life and completely transforms him through her love, but also her quirkiness and her willingness to eat pancakes for every meal of the day.

• 9:48Dax Shepard?

  It became a trope.

• 9:49Speaker 02

  It was the cute, sexy girl trope when I was 20 years old.

• 9:54Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 9:55Speaker 02

  And I was sort of leaning into that.

• 9:58Dax Shepard?

  Of course.

• 9:59Speaker 02

  When I was 20.

• 10:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, we're watching Natalie Portman on Garden State. We're like, we have to be her.

• 10:04Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 10:05Speaker 01

  That's how you get people. So yeah, lean in.

• 10:08Speaker 02

  Lean into that.

• 10:09Dax Shepard?

  I was drawn to it, but it's really funny if you look at it now and you deconstruct it. It's like, you still gotta be smoking hot, but you gotta be smoking hot and then also be into my weird dude shit. Cartoons. It's just a laboratory, poor male fantasy still.

• 10:24Speaker 01

  It is.

• 10:24Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, like, I want a supermodel who will fart.

• 10:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 10:28Speaker 01

  It won't smell.

• 10:29Speaker 02

  100%. It won't smell, it'll smell like candy. Yeah, no, I like to say that basically if you want to like boil down my story, it's Natalie Portman in Garden State is suddenly put into a Law and Order episode.

• 10:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:43Dax Shepard?

  Right. There's a genre mix up. We got a mixed genre.

• 10:48Speaker 02

  And the mixed genre leads to an explosion of male fantasy because then it becomes, oh, it's the sexy quirky girl plus murder.

• 10:58Speaker 01

  Was that happening? All these men were obsessed with you?

• 11:01Dax Shepard?

  I thought you were hot.

• 11:03Dax Shepard?

  I did.

• 11:03Speaker 01

  Well, you are beautiful.

• 11:04Speaker 02

  Thanks.

• 11:05Dax Shepard?

  No one's like, normally that wouldn't be appropriate to say, but I think in this situation.

• 11:10Speaker 01

  It's still not, but it's okay.

• 11:11Dax Shepard?

  It was definitely a facet to the whole story.

• 11:14Speaker 01

  Sure. I didn't pick up on this. This is interesting. I didn't know that men were obsessed with this.

• 11:18Speaker 02

  Oh, it was pornographic in nature. The number of people who were writing me their sexual fantasies about me.

• 11:27Dax Shepard?

  Because they had bought into this notion that you were a femme fatale.

• 11:30Speaker 02

  Yes, the femme fatale, the girl who orchestrates murder orgies. It was.

• 11:35Speaker 01

  Oh, my God.

• 11:36Speaker 02

  Pornographic in nature.

• 11:38Dax Shepard?

  I gotta be very clear. I didn't think you did it. I just thought you were hot. So I didn't think there'd be any blood orgies.

• 11:43Speaker 02

  Everyone agrees on.

• 11:45Dax Shepard?

  I didn't think there was blood orgies in the future. I think I went to, here's exactly what I went to, Amanda. It was like, I at 19 went with my girlfriend to Europe for a month after she graduated. What a fucking time. It was among the best month of my life. And I remember meeting a bunch of people and everyone's so friendly and you like fast forward to best friendship. And so I just went like, I would love to bump into her when I was 20 in Italy. This seems like exactly why you go.

• 12:14Speaker 02

  This is exactly why you go. To this day, I am in full promotion of studying abroad because everyone should know that the world is bigger than their own backyard.

• 12:23Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 12:23Speaker 02

  Everyone should have the opportunity to just be a new person in a new place, meeting other people who are new to a new place. There is something about being sort of removed from your network that allows you to just be a little more open minded and a little A little more open to people and experiences. And even that aspect of it, they were like, oh, see Amanda was studying abroad. She was open to new experiences like murder.

• 12:49Speaker 02

  And I'm just like, no, I was thinking more like siestas, which we don't do here in the United States, that kind of thing.

• 12:57Dax Shepard?

  There's also in this part, maybe on the surface, it's a little gross, but I say fuck that. And if you're young, you should do this. Like there's also, everyone there is young and they're writing the story of their life. And it's very romantic and they are already on a path, which has taken them out of the traditional. Everyone has this inflated sense of romance and novelness and it's very enjoyable.

• 13:18Speaker 01

  Who am I here?

• 13:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly.

• 13:21Dax Shepard?

  If anyone can do it, it should be done.

• 13:23Speaker 01

  I was rewatching the documentary last night and I was like, God, I mean, I know this is like the least worst part, but she didn't even get to experience this thing she was so excited to do and all these kids are doing. And it is such a beautiful, I studied abroad twice. It was incredible. She was robbed of that. Like this is horrible from the beginning.

• 13:44Dax Shepard?

  I was mad too. I'm like, well, she just got this boyfriend a week ago. She's been there for what, three weeks? Is that how long you?

• 13:49Speaker 02

  I was there for five weeks.

• 13:50Dax Shepard?

  Okay, five weeks.

• 13:51Speaker 02

  But I was planning on doing like a whole year there and it just didn't happen. But I'm glad you're mentioning this because this is a story where two young women went to go study abroad in this beautiful place. And only one of them survived. One of the things that I'm really proud about for the show that I've made that's coming out next week. Ah, oh my God.

• 14:13Speaker 02

  Is that it's not just limited to a courtroom drama. It's not just like, here's a crime. It's very much begins with the personal. We actually start, have you guys seen it? Did you guys get screeners? Okay. So you saw how the beginning is Amanda's going, me, Amanda is going to Italy again. All these years later, I'm on this journey to go back to Italy to confront my prosecutor. And I'm on this very personal journey, but to appreciate why I'm going on that journey and what the stakes are, you then have to go back in time and like relive this experience with me on my way back to Italy again.

• 14:48Dax Shepard?

  Was that 2022 that you went?

• 14:50Speaker 02

  2022, yeah.

• 14:50Dax Shepard?

  2022. So in service of the folks who don't know your story, everyone will know your name, but I do think there's some details we should go through so everyone's got the full story. You're in a very tricky position, which is you're reclaiming your life. You've already done that, and yet we need to know this part. But I will say the thing that fascinates me most is actually coming home. I think that's a much more fascinating.

• 15:12Speaker 02

  That's the now what question, which is, oh, you've been through a super traumatic thing that now has to find your life in a really fundamental way. Now what?

• 15:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:20Dax Shepard?

  Yes.

• 15:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 15:21Dax Shepard?

  So you're from Seattle. Mom and dad got divorced at 10?

• 15:25Speaker 02

  No, when I was very young. I was just over a year old and my mom was pregnant with my sister when my dad fell in love with another woman.

• 15:33Dax Shepard?

  Down the street.

• 15:34Speaker 02

  Down the street and left.

• 15:35Speaker 01

  Left to down the street?

• 15:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, but that was actually purposeful so that he would still be a very present part of my life. My parents were young. My mom was 25 when she had me. Both of them have had the grace, especially in the years since, to be like, we were dumb kids. We were not ready. This is 1987. I didn't grow up with that sense of conflict between them. It was more, I just grew up very aware that I had two houses that I lived in, and they were both culturally very different.

• 16:01Speaker 01

  Oh, interesting.

• 16:02Speaker 02

  Because my dad is like Mr. All-American, hamburgers and hot dogs. And my mom, who's born in Germany, is my European background.

• 16:11Dax Shepard?

  You have a German vibe.

• 16:12Speaker 02

  I mean.

• 16:13Dax Shepard?

  No, not because of.

• 16:15Speaker 01

  The dirndl I'm literally wearing.

• 16:17Dax Shepard?

  The pulley, that's one of the few words.

• 16:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, your sweater.

• 16:18Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah. People cost that pulley. Yeah, but you have a Germanness to you, which I'm a big fan, anyone who's listening.

• 16:24Speaker 01

  What can you define what that means?

• 16:26Dax Shepard?

  I think, boy, this runs the risk, but here we go. I said it. I think Germans can have an initial harshness that you realize quite quickly is not their spirit.

• 16:40Speaker 02

  Right, they might have a resting bitch spirit.

• 16:43Dax Shepard?

  Yes, and they also have an attention to detail and the meticulousness. They have a lot of things that if you're observing them, they're intense.

• 16:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:50Dax Shepard?

  But then it's such mixed messages because they're also so warm. They're like the funnest people to talk to when you're traveling.

• 16:55Speaker 01

  Totally.

• 16:56Dax Shepard?

  So I think you have that. And that might be a part of what people are trying to isolate.

• 17:01Speaker 01

  That's interesting though, because I feel like.

• 17:03Dax Shepard?

  Is that not your stereotype of Germans?

• 17:05Speaker 01

  No, that is. And I think that would be right, but that's based on what we know about you from the media.

• 17:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 17:11Speaker 01

  As soon as I walked in and we were saying hi, I was like, oh, my God, Amanda is so warm and sweet and nice. And yes, I was not necessarily expecting that. I think I was expecting like maybe a little more guarded. Well, obviously.

• 17:25Speaker 02

  Even a few years ago, you would have experienced me in a very different way because I'm thinking back to when I first met Monica, who is executive producer on the show as well. So when I first met her was way back in 2017. So this was right after the Netflix documentary came out. So there was this initial sort of reopening, reexamining of the case from a more intellectual and also empathetic perspective. People were sort of recognizing that, oh, maybe this was a media frickin nightmare, like what was going on? So there was this initial openness to maybe I'm a victim of this circumstance. And so I was invited to give my first ever public talk in the immediate wake of this.

• 18:08Speaker 02

  And if you had met me then, I would have had a very different vibe.

• 18:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:13Speaker 02

  Because I had, up to that point, spent my entire adult life with people calling me a monster and not listening to anything I said. And no matter what I said, it was thrown back in my face and twisted and distorted. And so I was very timid, which is not how I was growing up. Like I was more of the spirit that I have today, which is open and silly, whatever. We're having a good time.

• 18:37Dax Shepard?

  It was palpable that you were being hunted?

• 18:39Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 18:40Dax Shepard?

  I could feel that from the initial things I saw. I loved the doc so much. Right when we saw it, we were like, we would love to talk to you. I learned so much. Of course, I didn't know everything that had gone on in that media circus. The guy in the doc.

• 18:52Speaker 02

  Oh, my Nick Pisa.

• 18:53Dax Shepard?

  Oh my.

• 18:54Speaker 02

  My family likes to call him Nick Pisa shit. Yeah.

• 18:58Dax Shepard?

  His smugness about being a piece of shit is I think what is most offensive. If I had a sense, he was oblivious to his shittiness, but there's a smugness to it.

• 19:07Speaker 02

  And he has no remorse whatsoever. Yeah. And to his defense, which I'm always doing, I'm sort of always defending the people who attacked me. But to his defense, he was getting rewarded constantly.

• 19:18Dax Shepard?

  Oh, yeah.

• 19:19Speaker 02

  Kind of like psychopathic behavior. In a way, I understand how that feedback loop of here you are getting paid. Here you are getting headlines, getting rewarded for this behavior.

• 19:30Dax Shepard?

  Yes.

• 19:30Speaker 02

  He's going to feel entitled to do that thing. Yeah.

• 19:34Dax Shepard?

  My issue with him probably triggered something more personal, which is flying under the bullshit guise of journalistic integrity. As a journalist, I must uncover this. A, you're not uncovering the truth at all. You're perpetuating a lie. It really, of course, reminded me of when we were battling the paparazzi over our children, which is like, no, I'm sorry. They're not news.

• 19:54Speaker 02

  No, they're not.

• 19:55Dax Shepard?

  I get it. I'm news.

• 19:56Speaker 02

  We can even dissect that though, because you going to the grocery store isn't fucking news.

• 20:00Dax Shepard?

  Well, I agree, but you could make the argument that, you know, the fourth of the status was to check power. You could argue, I have power because I have status. Okay, it's all thin to me. I don't really think it's news if I go to the grocery store, but at least I am someone in society that maybe has an outsized bit of power. My children don't know. They're little pieces of shit like every other little kid.

• 20:21Speaker 02

  And they should be allowed to be little pieces of shit. Like, oh my God.

• 20:24Dax Shepard?

  And I was like, oh, these are the fucking dicks I argued with on TV, the paparazzi I debated. I'm not arguing you don't have a First Amendment right.

• 20:31Speaker 02

  Sit down debate?

• 20:32Dax Shepard?

  Oh, yeah. We ultimately got this thing agreed to by all the publishers to not show kids anymore unless you have the consent of the parent, which is great. But in the process of that, somehow we agreed to go argue with the paparazzi on TV, which we did, my wife and I.

• 20:44Speaker 02

  I didn't know that you were behind all of that. Oh, my God. Wow.

• 20:48Dax Shepard?

  My argument to him was, I get it, bro. You have a First Amendment right. You also have a First Amendment right to shit on your kitchen table. Do you do it? No, you don't do it because you have some morals and some ethics.

• 20:59Speaker 02

  Some common sense.

• 21:01Dax Shepard?

  That you legally can do that you of course wouldn't do because you're not a pile of shit. So at any rate, I think I was well primed to dislike that character.

• 21:10Speaker 02

  Oh, my God.

• 21:12Dax Shepard?

  I think I hated him more than the prosecutor.

• 21:14Speaker 02

  A lot of people did, actually. A lot of people came away feeling really surprised that the villain was the media and was this guy who happened to represent the perfect crystallization of like what was going wrong. But I don't think a lot of people knew if they weren't in a position like yourself.

• 21:33Speaker 01

  Well, people still don't know. They don't know when they're getting fed stuff via the media that it's sensationalized or that they're a business. It still happens.

• 21:42Dax Shepard?

  Well, also that you have to confront, and again, I'm in no judgment of anyone that enjoys seeing pictures of little kids. I love to see pictures of little kids. I'm not blaming the consumer.

• 21:55Dax Shepard?

  In swimwear, preferably.

• 21:58Dax Shepard?

  No, but of course I want to see people's kids, just like anyone else.

• 22:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, of course.

• 22:02Dax Shepard?

  So I don't blame the consumer, but the problem is I enjoy it. And then as the consumer, if you find out, oh, it's a little grosser than I wanted. I guess I didn't realize these little kids are getting followed all day long into school. I don't love that. I'm almost better off disagreeing with the journalist so that I don't have to take on the by proxy guilt of it. I'm incentivized to think, well, it is First Amendment. I'm empathetic.

• 22:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, they're justifying.

• 22:24Dax Shepard?

  It would serve them to just agree with that person's point of view so that they could not feel guilty about enjoying. Anyways, back to mom and dad. So culturally, so dad is very American, mom's German.

• 22:34Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 22:35Dax Shepard?

  You're a great student, very German of you.

• 22:37Speaker 02

  I know, right? Basically just do well at everything. So be good at sports, be good at music, be good at school.

• 22:44Dax Shepard?

  What was your sport?

• 22:45Speaker 02

  I played soccer, of course. Pussball.

• 22:48Speaker 01

  Oh my god.

• 22:49Speaker 02

  And there was a time in prison where I thought that, again, the things that you do to try to like rationalize what's happening to you when it's so fucking surreal. I would tell myself things like, I guess I was supposed to have some bad things happen to me when I was young, but fate forgot me and now all of the bad things are happening all at once. Nothing bad ever happened to me growing up. My parents divorced, but who cares? I get two Christmases and two Thanksgivings. And so, great, I have two houses. They're within two blocks of each other. I can walk between the two of them. When I get tired over here, I'll go over there. I did well in school. I did what I was told. I was the good kid. In fact, I'm the oldest of three sisters. The joke now is, oh, wow, of all of us who got sent to prison, Amanda, the goody two shoes.

• 23:32Speaker 01

  This is me getting sent to prison.

• 23:34Dax Shepard?

  It is.

• 23:34Speaker 01

  It really is.

• 23:35Dax Shepard?

  And everyone be like, I thought it was gonna be Neil.

• 23:37Speaker 02

  Do you have sisters too?

• 23:37Speaker 01

  No, I have a younger brother, but I'm very type A. Followed all the rules. I did all the things.

• 23:42Dax Shepard?

  Got great grades.

• 23:43Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 23:44Dax Shepard?

  Murdered someone, got away with it, didn't even have to.

• 23:47Speaker 01

  Sex orgies, you know, all the normal things.

• 23:50Dax Shepard?

  Good, my goal was that this would be the first time you go through this whole thing and you're laughing a lot. I hoped that this could be.

• 23:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:57Dax Shepard?

  It's something you've had to learn how to laugh at some of it.

• 23:59Speaker 02

  Well, actually, yes. I mean, well, tragedy plus time equals comedy. I actually do stand up now, so.

• 24:04Dax Shepard?

  Oh, you do?

• 24:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. So I make jokes about this whole ordeal.

• 24:08Speaker 01

  I bet that has been healing.

• 24:10Speaker 02

  It has been healing because it's nice to talk about the absurdity of it and to do a stupid fake Italian accent.

• 24:17Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 24:17Speaker 02

  Be like, ah, she looks very innocent, which makes her more guilty. And just like do some stupid impressions like that. It's fun because it is an absurd situation. If you can't laugh about it, then how the hell are you gonna survive?

• 24:30Dax Shepard?

  Well, you have it now. It's yours. You get to decide. It could bring you continued misery or you could find a way for it to give you joy. And I think I would have the biggest chip on my shoulder that someone would be telling me if I were you, how I'm supposed to process this whole thing.

• 24:42Speaker 02

  Oh, I get that all the time. That's one of the finding faults in me thing is, oh, now she's making jokes about it.

• 24:48Dax Shepard?

  Yes.

• 24:48Speaker 02

  That shows that she's a psychopath who doesn't really care about what happened to her roommate. I'm not joking about my roommate. I'm joking about me.

• 24:56Speaker 01

  But that was from day one. Well, we're gonna go through this.

• 24:58Dax Shepard?

  Okay. It's almost irresistible to not go postscript the whole time. But you're on the dean's list that you dub. You're a husky. And then you go abroad and five weeks in, I suppose, you have this new boyfriend. You've spent the night at his house. God, now that I'm saying it to you in person. It's like a whole different level.

• 25:16Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 25:17Speaker 01

  Why what?

• 25:17Dax Shepard?

  Because there's such a degree of separation in a documentary and a photograph and all these things. And now I'm sitting with you and I go, oh, yeah, you really walked from your boyfriend's house back to your apartment.

• 25:28Speaker 02

  Yeah. So this was during a holiday weekend. It had just been Halloween. So this is the day after Halloween, which is a big holiday in Italy. It's when everyone goes to their family members. They go and visit the graves of their ancestors, very much a solemn but quiet holiday. So it's a quiet day. One of my roommates has left the city. The guys who live downstairs from us have all left the city to be with their families. There are a lot of people who have vacated so that they could celebrate the holiday with their families. The city is very quiet and Raffaele, my boyfriend, wanted to take me out for a romantic weekend to this nearby town called Gubio, which is famous for truffles. So Raffaele was like romantic Italian guy.

• 26:09Dax Shepard?

  And if the show is accurate and the doc is accurate, he's also new to all this, right? He had only kind of had one girlfriend. He's very sweetly.

• 26:17Speaker 02

  Very sweet, very nerdy, not your typical Italian stallion. Very quiet, but at the same time, once we were locked in, he was like, oh, I want to take you on trips and oh, I want to buy a perfume for you. He didn't have a Volvo, but you might as well have been doing that kind of thing.

• 26:34Dax Shepard?

  A Vespa.

• 26:35Speaker 02

  A Vespa, sorry.

• 26:36Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 26:36Speaker 02

  I don't know the names of cars.

• 26:38Dax Shepard?

  You know, I know.

• 26:39Speaker 02

  Vespa.

• 26:39Dax Shepard?

  I didn't want anyone to get confused. He was Swedish.

• 26:41Speaker 01

  I took it as like, we're gonna have kids together and have a Volvo.

• 26:44Dax Shepard?

  That's why I corrected it.

• 26:45Speaker 02

  Well, but also, yeah.

• 26:46Dax Shepard?

  This is more meet me.

• 26:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, like meet me in Italy, you're like scooting around.

• 26:50Dax Shepard?

  Ciao pronto.

• 26:52Speaker 02

  Exactly. So that was the vibe that we were doing. And that's how I woke up that morning was, oh, I'm just gonna go home. I'm gonna take a shower. I'm gonna get dressed in a nice little dress and we can go out on our little romantic weekend.

• 27:05Dax Shepard?

  And then you get home and you notice some things are a mess.

• 27:09Speaker 02

  But it's not immediately clear to me that something bad has occurred. What I noticed is that the front door is open, which is odd because no one's home. Also, the latch on our front door was kind of sketchy. So I was like, oh, maybe someone didn't close it all the way. Who knows?

• 27:24Dax Shepard?

  Also, people are leaving to go on a trip. Maybe they're like.

• 27:26Speaker 02

  It could be, you know, it could be a thing. Then I go into my bathroom and there's a spot of blood in the sink and I'm like, huh. But then, of course, I think, well, it's the bathroom. We're all girls here.

• 27:37Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 27:38Speaker 02

  Blood sometimes happens.

• 27:39Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 27:39Speaker 02

  So, okay, get in the shower, get out of the shower, notice another spot of blood on the bath mat, and I go, huh.

• 27:46Dax Shepard?

  She really had a heavy flow?

• 27:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, you know, who knows?

• 27:48Speaker 01

  Or definitely someone cut themselves.

• 27:50Speaker 02

  Yeah, and then I was thinking, maybe someone cut themselves and they left really quick to go get like a bandage or something. I'm just trying to figure out what a normal reason for all of these things to be.

• 28:00Dax Shepard?

  Again, context is everything, as it always is. Because if you're in Baltimore for the weekend, and these things happen, you'd already gone to Baltimore going, there's a lot of murders, but you're in a fantasy.

• 28:12Speaker 02

  I'm in a fairy tale.

• 28:13Dax Shepard?

  And there's no murders in Italy. That's an inner-city.

• 28:15Speaker 02

  That's not what I was expecting, yeah. Worst-case scenarios were not, is someone going to hurt me? It was, is someone gonna steal my passport?

• 28:22Speaker 01

  Even in your day-to-day life, though, anywhere, you live with people, and you see a drop of blood in the bathroom, and you go, there must have been a murder? Then you're actually crazy. Like, that's what I would do because I'm paranoid.

• 28:36Dax Shepard?

  Well, let's have.

• 28:36Speaker 01

  I'm very paranoid, and then that's what people are like, oh, my God, you're crazy.

• 28:41Dax Shepard?

  Also, the interpersonal, like, if I lived with three people and I saw blood on the sink, whoever I already didn't like, I'd be like, fucking Mike the pig, right? Like, I might go to straight resentment.

• 28:51Speaker 01

  Exactly, exactly.

• 28:51Dax Shepard?

  Like, fuck you, couldn't clean up the fucking thing.

• 28:53Speaker 01

  Couldn't even clean up your cunts.

• 28:54Dax Shepard?

  Throw that thing, yeah, I'd already be like mad at the person.

• 28:56Speaker 01

  A hundred percent. Like, imagine that, being in your twenties, living with people, like, you're not gonna think that.

• 29:01Speaker 02

  No. And as far as I could see, my house was fine. Nothing was out of the ordinary. I did have a moment when the front door was open and go, oh, no, did someone come into the house? But then I walk into the house, and our TV's there, our stereo's there, like, anything of value that's immediately, obviously, there is untouched and is exactly as I left it. So then I'm automatically thinking, oh, just someone forgot to lock the door, and it swung open. That's what's going on in my head.

• 29:24Dax Shepard?

  The big eerie thing, as it would be, is a shit in the toilet, unflushed.

• 29:28Speaker 02

  In fact, so there are two bathrooms in my house, and this is something that a lot of people don't know. They get the misinformation and the facts of the case wrong. They hear that there is shit found in the bathroom, and they think Amanda took a shower in a bathroom. That had blood and shit in it. Like, what is she doing? That was the different bathroom. And I didn't know, I didn't see that until I went to go dry my hair in the other bathroom.

• 29:54Dax Shepard?

  Okay. I don't even know if I was clear on that.

• 29:56Speaker 02

  They didn't make that clear on the doc. That's one of those things that the show is gonna show is it's like, what are these contextual details that went overlooked all these years?

• 30:05Dax Shepard?

  So yeah, that's an incredible detail.

• 30:07Speaker 02

  So then I finally noticed that after I'm all changed and ready to go and I'm like, that is weird. Of all the things that I had seen, that was not something that I expected my roommates to do. Right. And I immediately got that creeped out feeling that somebody was in the house with me. And so I grabbed my things and left and went back to my boyfriend's house. While I'm doing that, I'm turning over in my head, all of these weird things that I've seen. And I'm like, am I overreacting right now? Why would someone come into our house and just take a shit and leave? Am I crazy? Did someone just forget and they're in a hurry? But that doesn't seem like them. So what do I do about this? And I go and I ask Raffaele and he says, you should just call your roommates and ask them. And I'm like, duh.

• 30:51Speaker 02

  So I start calling and calling. And two of my roommates don't answer their phone. Maybe they're still sleeping. Who knows? How many people lived there? Three. Another thing that a lot of people don't remember is that I had two other roommates. They just happened to be older than us and Italian. I was the youngest. I was 20. Meredith was 21. And then our two Italian roommates were in their late twenties. There were four of you in there. There are four of us in there. And two, Meredith and Laura, don't answer the phone. Filomena finally does. And I tell her what I've seen and she says, okay, that sounds weird. Go back to the house, snoop around a little more, see if you can see anything and then I'll meet you there. So she actually spent the night at her boyfriend's house as well. She wasn't home. So I go back with Raffaele.

• 31:35Speaker 02

  We poke around a little more and we go into Filomena's room, which we hadn't. Her door was closed. Like, why would I go into her room? We finally opened her door and look in her room and her room's been ransacked. Oh. The window is broken. I didn't know this either. Yes. Yeah, this is wild. Exactly. Like the number of things that people think they know this case. But then they don't. So we open the door and her room is a disaster. There is a broken window. Her stuff is thrown everywhere. But again, her laptop is right there. Her camera's right there. Why did this person start rifling through her clothes? When her expensive stuff is there? I asked Raffaele to call the police because I don't even know how to call the police in Italy. I'm calling my roommates.

• 32:18Speaker 02

  I'm calling my mom to tell them what's going on.

• 32:21Dax Shepard?

  Because at this point, you're like, there's been a break in.

• 32:23Speaker 02

  There's been a break in. We're calling the police. We're still sort of trying to assess the situation, but there's been a break in for sure. And we wait for the police to arrive. And when they arrive, they act like they have no idea what we're fucking talking about. And that's because in Italy, there are two different kinds of police. So Raffaele had called the Carabinieri, who are like the state police. The reason he did that is because his sister is Carabinieri. So he's just more familiar with them as an institution. The police that arrived at the house were from the local postal police. Okay. And they were from the tech crimes unit. And they had no idea what we were talking about. We were like, there's a break in, there's a break in. They're like, what are you talking about? We're like, what do you mean, what are we talking about?

• 33:06Speaker 02

  Like, we called you, we just called you and said there was a break in. And they're like, we didn't get any call from you. It starts off in this weird, conflictual way. And they're like, well, we don't know anything about a break in. We're here because we found these two phones.

• 33:20Speaker 03

  Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert. If you dare.

• 33:27Dax Shepard?

  We get support from Skims. Okay, I have a confession. I genuinely love matching pajamas. It's the best part of Christmas morning, really. Everyone in the same matching set, looking ridiculously cute in front of the tree.

• 33:41Speaker 01

  I love matching pajamas. I'm literally going to be in coordinating sets with all my friends this holiday season. Because I got them, spoiler to my friends who are listening, the same Skims pajama set I've been living in. So soft and cozy and they look cute. So you can leave the house and go get a late night hot chocolate, cozy.

• 34:02Dax Shepard?

  It's so great how Skims has sets for everyone too. Women's, men's, kids, even your pets. So nobody in your life has to be left out this year.

• 34:12Speaker 01

  I have a bunch of different pajama sets. One of my favorite is the organic cotton sleep long sleeve set.

• 34:18Dax Shepard?

  Okay, tell me more.

• 34:20Speaker 01

  So comfortable, very chic too. The top is a button down, but very, very soft, easy to sleep in. But as I said before, you can multi-purpose this and look super cute.

• 34:31Dax Shepard?

  Hot chocolate runs. It's like the pajamas we grew up in, except without the scratchy polyester that made opening presents feel more like a hot yoga class that nobody signed up for.

• 34:41Speaker 01

  All the nostalgia, none of the discomfort. Shop my favorite loungewear and pajamas at skims.com. After you place your order, be sure to let them know we sent you. Select podcasts in the survey and be sure to select Armchair Expert in the dropdown menu that follows. If you're looking for the perfect gifts for everyone on your list, the Skims Holiday Shop is now open at skims.com.

• 35:00Dax Shepard?

  This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. Every family has that one holiday tradition nobody actually enjoys, but everyone keeps doing because stopping it would feel like a federal offense. For me, it was a specific meal situation that I will not name because my family listens. But at some point, you have to ask yourself, am I doing this because I love it or because I'm afraid of what happens if I don't?

• 35:23Speaker 01

  Yes, and that question applies to so much more than the holidays. I think a lot of us carry these invisible rules about how we're supposed to spend the holidays, who we're supposed to see, what it's supposed to look like. And when you start unpacking that with a therapist, you realize half of your stress is coming from rules you didn't even write.

• 35:39Dax Shepard?

  This is where BetterHelp can be a great resource during the holidays. BetterHelp does the initial matching work for you so you can focus on your therapy goals. A short questionnaire helps identify your needs and preferences, which means they typically get it right the first time. If you aren't happy with your match, switch to a different therapist at any time from their tailored recs.

• 35:58Speaker 01

  I just love therapy. I've been avoiding it recently, or not avoiding it, but I was like, oh, I'm busy, I'm busy, I'm busy. I haven't canceled, canceled, canceled. But then I-

• 36:06Dax Shepard?

  You start feeling it.

• 36:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, because then I had it this past weekend and I was like, oh my god. And just thank God, thank God for her. Yeah.

• 36:14Dax Shepard?

  BetterHelp is now in network with more than 125 health plans with many copays as low as $15 for eligible members. And if you don't have eligible insurance or live outside the US, you can still get 20% off your first month. Sign up and get 20% off at betterhelp.com/dax. That's betterhelp, H E L P, dot com slash DAX. We get support from Superhuman. Look, I love what I do. The conversations, the ideas, the creative stuff, but there's this whole other layer of work that eats my day alive. The inbox that never ends. Docs I need to get through, threads I'm behind on. And by the time I've dealt with all that, the stuff I actually want to focus on gets whatever's

• 36:58Dax Shepard?

  left. What I needed was something that just works where I'm already working. Not another tab to open, not another thing to set up. Superhuman Go from the makers of Grammarly is different. It's already right there. Inside your email, your docs, your browser, you don't go to it. It's already working alongside you. You're deep in a long thread, highlight it, and it pulls the key points. About to send something important? It flags what doesn't add up before it leaves your hands. It knows your style, your workflows, and it just backs you up without getting in the way. A thought partner that's already up to speed, at your service, not after your job. So do yourself a favor and try Superhuman Go from the makers of Grammarly. Find out more at superhuman.com.

• 37:42Dax Shepard?

  We get support from our sponsor, Lilly. For adults with obesity or with excess weight and weight-related medical problems, it's time to find out about Foundo or for Glee Pro. Foundo is a once daily prescription GLP-1 medicine used with a reduced calorie diet and increased physical activity to help adults with obesity or some adults with overweight who also have weight-related medical problems to lose excess body weight and keep the weight off.

• 38:08Speaker 04

  Foundao should not be used with other GLP-1 receptor agonist medicines. It is not known if Foundao is safe and effective for use in children. Don't take Foundao if you're allergic to it, or if you or someone in your family had majorary thyroid cancer or multiple endocrine neoplasia syndrome type 2. Stop and call your doctor right away if you have an allergic reaction, a lump or swelling in your neck, or severe stomach pain. Serious side effects may include inflamed pancreas and gallbladder problems. Tell your doctor if you experience vision changes, if you're nursing, pregnant, plant to be, or taking birth control pills, and before scheduled procedures with anesthesia. Taking Foundao with an insulin or sulfonylurea may cause low blood sugar. Side effects include diarrhea, nausea, and vomiting, which can cause dehydration and may cause kidney problems. Once daily Foundao is available by prescription only in 0.8 milligram, 2.5 milligram, 5.5 milligram,

• 38:54Speaker 04

  9 milligram, 14.5 milligram, and 17.2 milligram tablets. Learn more at foundao.lily.com or call 1-800-LILY-RX. Now is perfect to talk to your doctor about Foundao.

• 39:11Dax Shepard?

  They are there coincidentally, in a sense.

• 39:13Speaker 02

  Whoa.

• 39:14Dax Shepard?

  It's not a coincidence because it is related.

• 39:16Speaker 02

  Right, it is related, but coincidentally, they're like, have you seen Filomena Romanelli? Because these phones belong to her, one of my roommates. The one that's inbound, who I just spoke to on the phone. And I say, well, they can't be her phones because I just talked to her. This is so confusing. It's so confusing, exactly.

• 39:33Dax Shepard?

  And the language. That's what this show does a great job of that the doc did it, is the absolute Tower of Babel, which is the experience. If you don't know what anyone's saying, they don't know what you're saying. And if ever there was a moment where communication was imperative, it's this, and it just starts completely wrong.

• 39:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, from the very beginning. The miscommunication that led to people suspecting me. Here's a great example. So the police finally get there. We finally convinced them to go into the house. Filomena arrives, she's freaking out. Her room is like a mess. She's sorting through it to see what's stolen and what's not. And in the meantime, I try to explain to the police officers that I've looked in all the other rooms. Laura's room is like completely untouched. So whoever broke into our house was rifling through Filomena's room, but not Laura's room, didn't go into my room. And then when I tried to open Meredith's door, it was locked. And I was like, that's weird. And I tried to explain to the police, her room is locked. Can we break down the door? And they're like, we're not going to break a door.

• 40:33Speaker 02

  We don't have authorization to just break doors in people's houses. And they're trying to tell me, well, is it normal for her to lock her door? And I'm like, once or twice she locked the door. Sure. They interpret that as she always locks her door. And then Filomena overhears this and she's like, she never locks her door. So again, like the miscommunication. And I'm like, no. Like every now and then people lock their doors. She would lock the door to her room.

• 40:57Dax Shepard?

  Como se dice?

• 40:58Speaker 02

  Como se dice? Yeah, exactly. Like, ah! And so then Filomena is immediately demanding, we break down this door. We break down this door. Her boyfriend breaks down the door and discovers the crime scene, which we had not seen up to that point. And gratefully, in a way, I did not see into the room because I was like, everyone's yelling in Italian and I'm the youngest and I just want all of the adults in the room to figure this out and tell me what to do. Everyone's yelling in Italian. I can't understand what half of people are saying anyway. So I'm just sort of going to back away. And they break down the door. And then, of course, everyone starts screaming and they push us out of the house. I'm picking up words here and there. Blood, foot, closet.

• 41:43Speaker 02

  I'm trying to piece it together and I initially think, is there like a dismembered foot in the room? Right. Like, what is going on? And Raffaele then is able to talk to the other people and get an idea of what's going on. There's a body. It's under a blanket. They don't know who it is, but they think it's Meredith. And I just go into shock. Of course. And I spend the next several days in and out of the police office. I was ultimately questioned for 53 hours over five days.

• 42:14Dax Shepard?

  And those scenes are so intense.

• 42:16Speaker 02

  Those are the scenes in the show that I was most concerned about getting right.

• 42:20Dax Shepard?

  Two, like 10-hour shoot days. And those were the days that you were quite vocal.

• 42:24Speaker 02

  Not in the sense that I didn't trust everyone involved, but that was the one that I really needed to get perfect because there's so many misconceptions about what interrogations look like. Everyone has a fantasy version of it in their mind and no one really knows what it looks like. And one of the things that I'm a big advocate for now in criminal justice reform world. Is really trying to push back on this distinction between an interview and interrogation. Are you guys familiar with this concept? No. Okay, and this is vital. So this is true both here in the United States and in Italy. It's kind of a universal thing where police say there's one thing which is called an interview, and there's another thing which is called an interrogation. And the reason why it's very important to distinguish is because there are different

• 43:08Speaker 02

  rights involved. If you're in an interrogation, you are in custody and you are being accused and you have the right to an attorney. If you are just being interviewed, we're just talking, we're asking questions, and you have no right to an attorney, even if they start asking questions that suggest that you are guilty. And so a thing that's an ongoing battle for me in my own case, but also just in general in the criminal justice world, is pointing out that this distinction between an interview and interrogation is just a loophole for police to deny you your rights.

• 43:46Dax Shepard?

  It's very arbitrary.

• 43:48Speaker 02

  It's so arbitrary, it's so subjective.

• 43:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:50Speaker 02

  And at no point was I ever informed I was a suspect.

• 43:54Speaker 01

  Right.

• 43:55Speaker 02

  At no point was I ever given the opportunity to have an attorney present.

• 43:59Speaker 01

  Or even to know, to say, I'm not answering. You wouldn't know if you're just like, I'm just here to answer questions.

• 44:05Speaker 02

  Right. And they'll say things like, well, you were always free to leave. It didn't feel like that when you had the door closed on me and a cop between me and the door, you're yelling at me and telling me I have to answer your questions or I'm not cooperating with the investigation. That doesn't feel like I'm free to go.

• 44:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly.

• 44:22Dax Shepard?

  Okay, now here's where I'm gonna project a bit.

• 44:24Speaker 02

  Yes, please.

• 44:25Dax Shepard?

  So what I also worry about when I fear this situation happening to me is I am really bad with authority.

• 44:32Speaker 02

  You get attitude?

• 44:33Dax Shepard?

  I do. I don't like being subjugated. I don't like being talked down to. Every time I'm watching a doc about someone wrongly accused, I'm like, I'd fuck myself over because I could only take so much and I would be very confrontational and would look like I was guilty.

• 44:46Speaker 02

  Well, here's the thing, though. Whatever you do, looks like you're guilty. Yeah.

• 44:51Dax Shepard?

  Right, right, right.

• 44:53Speaker 02

  I was not like you in the sense that I, at this point, was still sort of getting over the shock of my roommate being murdered. And I'm in a foreign country with no one. I've met my boyfriend a week before. All of these people are new. My automatic reaction is to lean on the police and to trust the police. Yeah. And so I'm actually looking to the police for reassurance, for guidance, for comfort. And increasingly, I'm discovering that they don't want to comfort me or give me guidance. In fact, they are becoming increasingly hostile towards me, and I don't know why.

• 45:29Dax Shepard?

  If you could break down in the 53 hours, how deep into that do you think before you realized, oh, oh, oh, they think I did it?

• 45:36Speaker 02

  I didn't realize that until the final interrogation. So again, five days of being questioned. I noticed that they were being a little hostile towards me. And again, it also depended upon the cop. Right. Because that's a really important thing that we show in the show, is that there are lots of cops in this room with me. And some of them are really nice. Some of them are trying to comfort me, but the way that they're comforting me is by saying, we know you've gone through something terrible. We know you've witnessed something terrible. We're just trying to help you. You need to help us so we can help you. Part of them is coaxing, and other ones are being really punitive and yelling at me. As they're getting more and more hostile with me, I'm interpreting that as they're under a lot of stress because they're trying to make sure that there isn't a serial killer on the loose.

• 46:21Speaker 02

  I think they have their work cut out for them because this murder makes no fucking sense. Yeah.

• 46:27Dax Shepard?

  You're their best lead.

• 46:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 46:29Dax Shepard?

  And you know, I don't know anything.

• 46:31Speaker 02

  Exactly. Like, I'm their best lead? Yeah. Like, if you're looking to me for answers? And again, talk about horrible situations. It's not like Meredith was drunkenly stumbling down a dark alleyway somewhere. Right. And got attacked. She got walked home by her friends after having a nice dinner with them and watching a movie and was getting ready for bed when she was attacked, in her own fricking bedroom, in her own- Freaking house.

• 46:59Speaker 01

  That's the other thing, because the story, not this story, but the story is about you. No one knows about her.

• 47:07Speaker 02

  And no one knows about the person who really did it.

• 47:09Speaker 01

  Exactly. No one knows about the other quote, characters in the story that are very important. And especially the victim, because it was eclipsed by the media portraying you in this way. Like you became the story and there's a dead woman and all these people don't even care to know.

• 47:28Speaker 02

  Exactly. And then in the scenario that I find myself in, I'm like, okay, here's a girl that I met five weeks ago. I don't know her very well.

• 47:38Speaker 01

  Of course.

• 47:39Speaker 02

  But I know that she didn't have anyone who disliked her. I'm trying to imagine if someone was targeting our house, like it felt like someone was targeting her. And so I was like, why would someone attack her? And I'm trying to think who could do something like this. It's just beyond me. And so in those early days, I'm trying to navigate this and I'm feeling like the police are getting more and more impatient with me. The thing that they told me is that any little detail that you might remember, maybe there was an interaction between her and a boy at a bar, maybe it isn't meaningful to you, but it could be everything to this investigation. I'm sitting here trying to like rack my brain. Okay. In the last five weeks, was there any little thing?

• 48:20Speaker 02

  And I even point them to a creepy guy that we met at a bar, but of course he's, has nothing to do with it. And I don't know what the fuck's going on. And then we get finally into that interrogation and there is a huge confrontation that I was not expecting. Because I wasn't even expecting to be interrogated. I wasn't even called into the police station. My boyfriend was, and I was just afraid to be at his apartment alone, understandably. So I followed him to the police station and I thought it was going to be like a half an hour, an hour at most. So I brought a book to read. I was sitting in the waiting room, but then a police officer cozies over to me and starts chatting. And then that chatting turns into, have you given more thought to maybe any weird

• 49:05Speaker 02

  interactions? And I'm like, okay, I'm answering these. Same questions over and over again, but no, I still don't know who could have done this. And then another cop comes over and is like, wait, are you talking about the case? And he's like, yeah, I'm just asking a few questions. They're like, well, then we have to write it down. So they sort of bring me casually into this office that's not an interrogation room. It's just an office. There's like filing cabinets and books and it's a normal room where I've been questioned. Everyone else has been questioned and then they say, you've been lying to us.

• 49:37Speaker 02

  And immediately I'm just like, oh God. And they're like, we know about the marijuana.

• 49:42Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. So this is really important. And God, again, this is a part that scares me so much is in the effort to cover up something benign, often people seem like they're dishonest, right? And it's like, everyone involved was smoking weed and everyone involved was like, hey, don't mention the weed.

• 49:59Speaker 02

  Wait, what?

• 50:00Speaker 01

  So again, I don't know about this either.

• 50:01Speaker 02

  All these little facts. Yeah. So what happened? This is actually unknown to me, but the boys who lived downstairs from us, they were growing marijuana in their bathtub. Okay. And so they had a significant amount of marijuana in their possession. And because Meredith was dating one of them and because we all lived in the same house, the police were like, there's no fucking way that Amanda's telling the truth when she says, oh no, we don't smoke marijuana.

• 50:32Dax Shepard?

  Her roommate specifically said like, hey, when you talk to the police, just don't tell them about the marijuana. Which again, I'd be like, yeah, yeah, obviously.

• 50:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, obviously. Why would I just bring for incriminating information? Yeah. I'm here on a student visa. I don't want to be kicked out of the country for possession of marijuana. So I'm confronted with an actual lie, but now they say, what else are you lying about?

• 50:56Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 50:58Speaker 02

  And so the dissent. And you're like, nothing? Nothing. I've told you everything and I'm sorry. And now I'm trying to ingratiate myself with them again to be like, no, I swear. I did lie about that and I'm so sorry. And I'm immediately on this sort of wobbly foot. They're like, the things that you have been telling us are inconsistent. And it's like, is it because my language isn't good enough? Trying to talk to you in Italian. I'm not fluent in this language.

• 51:21Speaker 01

  Why wouldn't they bring in an English speaking?

• 51:24Speaker 02

  Well, I had no right to a translator because I wasn't being interrogated. Remember? I'm just answering questions. It's just a chat.

• 51:32Dax Shepard?

  You don't need a translator for a gentle chat.

• 51:34Speaker 01

  Goes to show that they really, really did not care about finding the person because they would want to have an English speaking.

• 51:42Speaker 02

  To their defense, in their defense, again, in their defense. I believe, and everyone that I've worked on in this show also believes, and I want to give credit where credit's due. Like, I did not make this show by myself. The creator and showrunner is KJ Steinberg. And she did years of research to uncover things about this case that I didn't even know. This is like, her big, beautiful project, she devoted herself, gave her full heart to this project, researched the shit out of it, and discovered that the police had already suspected me from day one.

• 52:15Dax Shepard?

  Now, as I was watching the doc years ago, there's a lot of different things on trial here. The one that stuck out most to me, and maybe you'll disagree, is just this kind of deep misogyny.

• 52:26Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 52:26Dax Shepard?

  That is cultural, and it's so powerful, like, the most key sentence to me is that the lead prosecutor says, "Well, the killer covered her with a sheet. Only a woman would do that." And it's like, stop, stop, stop. What the fuck are you talking about? Based on what? What study are you quoting right now, where they did a double-blind? I mean, that's insane. And now, because he's so committed to that, once we find out there's more people involved, then it's like, well, but she still has to be there to put the sheet on. Because again, this guy would not put a sheet. There were numerous things along the way. It was like, men do this and women do this.

• 53:04Speaker 02

  So therefore, a woman must be involved.

• 53:06Dax Shepard?

  Confirmation bias, like, by the clearest example. I believe this, and I will find things that support this.

• 53:11Speaker 02

  Yeah. Well, the grossest version of this was to go back to how Meredith was erased from this whole ordeal. Who Meredith was as a person is not the person that was represented in court. We talk about character assassination of me. That was obvious. I was called Luciferina in the courtroom. I was a literal she-devil in the courtroom. That's who was on trial. But even Meredith, who is this girl from Leeds, England, who was a tour guide, who loved to dance to music and who was just starting to hook up with this guy downstairs, being a young girl, studying abroad, having fun. She was turned into this uptight, judgmental bitch in the courtroom.

• 53:55Dax Shepard?

  Oh, because they needed to give you motive?

• 53:57Speaker 02

  Exactly. So the motive was, here are the two epitomes of women.

• 54:03Dax Shepard?

  The Madonna and the whore.

• 54:04Speaker 02

  The Madonna and the whore.

• 54:05Dax Shepard?

  It's so basic, it's so biblical, but also it's a witch trial as well. So additionally, like the other layer of misogyny for me is we have had now for hundreds of years, this notion of witches and what do witches do? They're very sexual and they kill children. This crazy cartoonish idea of a witch. And you were that, like a crazy deranged sex orgy? That became the premise?

• 54:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 54:28Dax Shepard?

  And that you were hypersexual?

• 54:29Speaker 02

  Well, they had to explain how a woman could be guilty of a man's crime, right? Yes. Meredith was raped and murdered. She was found, someone had ripped her clothing off. There was DNA in her vagina. Like, this was a man's crime. Yes. And they're like, but we've arrested a woman. And so how do we make a woman guilty of this man's crime? We make her the orchestrator of the rape. And also, oh, inconveniently, the guy whose DNA is all over the crime scene, he has no relationship. He played basketball with the guys who live downstairs. So they could sort of say, maybe he encountered Amanda. And so maybe Amanda, maybe, they don't have evidence,

• 55:12Speaker 02

  but maybe Amanda and him had a secret love affair. But in the meantime, Raffaele, who is my actual boyfriend, has never seen this man in his entire life. Right. And so the way that they explain this is that the crime was all my idea. And I was in a secret love triangle between these two. And so I decide to put my two men to the test and see what they're willing to do to pleasure me. So I have them rape my roommate for me and then hold her down so that I can stab her to death. That's the story.

• 55:46Speaker 01

  If it didn't end so fucking horribly, it's laughable.

• 55:50Speaker 02

  It is laughable. Thank you.

• 55:51Speaker 01

  It is. This is so deeply absurd.

• 55:55Dax Shepard?

  But if you drill super deep into it, I think it's quite fascinating because, again, under it is all this male insecurity. Like, you're an insatiable sex machine that cannot be satisfied, which is just males' deep fear they will not satisfy a woman.

• 56:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:12Dax Shepard?

  There's so much gender shit in it. It's bonkers.

• 56:14Speaker 01

  And also just that a sexual woman in general, if any kind, is bad. That then makes them capable.

• 56:22Dax Shepard?

  Well, that's true. They got that.

• 56:23Speaker 01

  Well, sure. You're right. You're right. In the doc, when someone was asking you, what did he ask you? Something so deranged, like, have you ever done sexual?

• 56:34Speaker 02

  The Chris Cuomo interview. That also is in the show. But there are some really bad interviews.

• 56:40Speaker 01

  Puzzled questions that are coming your way about your sexual history and are you like into sexual deviants and stuff? Directly to your face, they are asking you these questions. And it's like, what if the answer is yes? That has nothing to do with murder.

• 56:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, I made friends with a bunch of dominatrixes after this because I was like, how does it feel to have your lifestyle demonized in law? And I was really surprised by their answer because they were like, well, we're really surprised by that because actually professional dominatrixes, at least here in LA, this is where I met them, have a really good relationship with the police because the police use them as helpers to understand if there is an actual domestic violence situation or if it's a kink scenario.

• 57:20Speaker 01

  Oh, interesting.

• 57:21Speaker 02

  And because in the kink world, there are certain ways that you hurt people, but you don't do any sort of like legitimate harm.

• 57:29Speaker 01

  Sensual.

• 57:30Speaker 02

  Yeah. Well, and there are rules. Like, they will never hit you in the kidneys, for example.

• 57:34Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 57:34Speaker 02

  So if somebody shows up with a wife who's been kicked in the kidneys and says, oh, we were just doing sexy stuff, a dominatrix is gonna go, uh-uh. That's not what we do.

• 57:45Dax Shepard?

  Right.

• 57:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's interesting.

• 57:46Speaker 02

  Like, this is the sign that it's domestic violence. And so they actually have a good working relationship, but I doubt that they had that good working relationship in Perugia, frickin' Italy.

• 57:56Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 57:57Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 57:58Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, so you're getting into the misogyny, but then you're also veering into a very Catholic country as well.

• 58:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, I was not prepared for that.

• 58:05Dax Shepard?

  Here, famously and accurately, I think people will say like, oh, we'll have a female president before we have an atheist president. We'll have a black president before we have an atheist president. Like, that's still very true.

• 58:15Speaker 02

  Oh, 100%.

• 58:16Dax Shepard?

  And that's here. And there it's amplified because it's much more Catholic.

• 58:20Speaker 02

  Absolutely. There was a huge cross of Jesus above the judge in my courtroom.

• 58:27Dax Shepard?

  So if you're godless, which you weren't shy about saying, at least in the show.

• 58:32Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 58:32Dax Shepard?

  You're evil.

• 58:33Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, you're evil. I have no moral grounds. Nobody's guiding me.

• 58:36Dax Shepard?

  Why wouldn't you kill? Because you won't have to pay.

• 58:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, because you don't rape and murder people unless you don't believe in God.

• 58:42Dax Shepard?

  That's right.

• 58:43Speaker 02

  And people who believe in God don't rape and murder people.

• 58:45Dax Shepard?

  Never.

• 58:46Speaker 02

  Of course not. Of course not.

• 58:47Dax Shepard?

  And they certainly don't molest people.

• 58:49Speaker 02

  Right. Definitely not. Definitely not in the Catholic Church, especially.

• 58:53Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, so, man, a lot of my trigger, this is like.

• 58:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'm sorry. Are you doing okay?

• 58:57Dax Shepard?

  Hand-built from all my things that I hate.

• 58:59Speaker 02

  Are you kidding me?

• 59:00Dax Shepard?

  You should be sorry. I want you to comfort me for your story.

• 59:02Speaker 02

  Well, I don't know, though, because I think that one thing that actually is really nice is when people find my story relatable.

• 59:10Dax Shepard?

  Yes.

• 59:10Speaker 02

  Because for so long, I was just an other. Yeah. I felt ostracized and like, nobody understood me and no one could understand me because they had not gone through this experience I went through. But one of the things that I push back on is it's like, well, bad shit has happened to all of us. We've been lied to and we've been hurt. And that's what happened to me. It just looked like this.

• 59:31Dax Shepard?

  And also, there's all these different shapes for the same experience in some way. So that's a huge trigger for me because I had stepdads who showed up and all of a sudden there was a whole new game plan and a whole new set of rules and none of them made sense and they were very arbitrary.

• 59:44Speaker 02

  Sounds like a new cellmate.

• 59:46Dax Shepard?

  Yes, yes.

• 59:47Speaker 02

  Because you are trapped, right? You're trapped. And now the social dynamics of the thing that you're trapped inside are completely changed. And the strongest person in the room is going to impose a new reality on you. That's like getting a new cellmate.

• 59:59Dax Shepard?

  Yes. So I just could relate, even though I can't, to just this notion of like, fuck the people that have all the control, have an entirely different reality than I have.

• 1:00:09Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:00:10Dax Shepard?

  And they're in charge. I don't know for how much longer.

• 1:00:12Speaker 02

  And that's such an important part of what I was trying to convey in this show is that I think the police truly believed that.

• 1:00:21Speaker 02

  I must know something that I'm not telling them. And they're all tired and they are under a lot of pressure. And they're like, if we can just get this girl to tell us what she knows, we can all go fucking home.

• 1:00:35Dax Shepard?

  This will all go away for me.

• 1:00:37Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:00:37Dax Shepard?

  In your case, for 53 hours. So imagine last week's work week plus two more days. That entire time you were there, someone's asking you the same question over and over and over again. And at some point you're heavily incentivized. You just want them to go away. You want them to stop asking. You want to give them an answer that'll make them stop asking you.

• 1:00:55Speaker 02

  But especially when they introduce this idea of blackout.

• 1:00:59Speaker 01

  Oh, what's that?

• 1:01:00Speaker 02

  So this is a really common interrogation technique. So once they've sort of like broken you down and made you feel bad, they basically give you an out. They say, well, maybe you aren't telling us the truth, not because you don't want to tell us the truth, but because you don't remember what the truth is.

• 1:01:16Speaker 01

  I'm so susceptible to this.

• 1:01:18Dax Shepard?

  I know you thought you could be convinced you were a man. Remember we had a guest.

• 1:01:21Speaker 02

  Wait, what is this? Tell me about this.

• 1:01:24Dax Shepard?

  This is incredible. We had this guest on.

• 1:01:26Speaker 02

  It was Jonathan Hyde, I think.

• 1:01:27Dax Shepard?

  So he was like, I couldn't make you believe you were a woman. I'm like, yeah, so of course not. I have a penis between my legs. I can feel it. You could never convince me. And Monica's like, yeah, you could.

• 1:01:38Speaker 01

  I was like, I mean, if you showed me some test.

• 1:01:41Dax Shepard?

  You showed me DNA, if I showed you DNA.

• 1:01:43Speaker 02

  Yeah. Oh, my God.

• 1:01:45Speaker 01

  Yes, I am. I'm not so arrogant to think I know everything. So I would be susceptible.

• 1:01:51Dax Shepard?

  It's fun.

• 1:01:51Speaker 01

  I would be susceptible to the situation.

• 1:01:53Speaker 02

  I'm jealous. That's kind of the crux is on the one hand, it's great that you are confident in your perception of reality. But so was my prosecutor.

• 1:02:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly.

• 1:02:05Speaker 02

  And he was so confident in his version of perception of reality that he imposed it.

• 1:02:10Speaker 01

  Uh huh.

• 1:02:11Dax Shepard?

  Well, he had more leverage to do so.

• 1:02:13Speaker 01

  But he also was so closed off. He couldn't even begin to see that maybe we have it wrong here.

• 1:02:19Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:02:19Dax Shepard?

  But you made a good point and I appreciate you doing it. And I kind of try to do the same thing all the time too, which is you have to acknowledge they're weirdly in a similar situation as you are. Cause they have all of Italy. Saying, "Figure this out right now."

• 1:02:31Speaker 02

  Now.

• 1:02:32Dax Shepard?

  This is scaring the shit out of us. And you guys have got to figure this out. If anyone else that was murdered in any other place, you'd have people that knew her for 30 years you could talk to. You could really construct something, but man, they have nothing.

• 1:02:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, they're used to tracking down drug dealers. They're not used to homicidal maniacs in their midst.

• 1:02:47Dax Shepard?

  Yes, completely random, completely not a family member, not a lover, all those things.

• 1:02:52Speaker 02

  Cause they had ruled out the boyfriend is my assumption. Well, he was out of town. Okay. For the weekend. Okay. So he had an ironclad alibi. So very early on, and also maybe I should clarify that one of the reasons why they thought that someone like me was involved is because from the beginning, my prosecutor believed that the break in was staged.

• 1:03:14Dax Shepard?

  He thought you couldn't get in that window.

• 1:03:16Speaker 02

  He thought that a burglar would have broken in in any other way besides the way that he broke in. He could not be convinced that a burglar would break in to that window of all the windows that he could possibly break into.

• 1:03:31Dax Shepard?

  Sure.

• 1:03:31Speaker 02

  Therefore.

• 1:03:33Dax Shepard?

  You're a killer.

• 1:03:34Speaker 02

  Someone who has access to the house is involved in the crime and is trying to cover it up. So this is a conspiracy. Yeah. And this conspiracy suggests maybe multiple attackers. We also know that the only people who have access to this apartment are girls, and we know that a man at least was involved in this crime. So a man is involved in this crime, and one of the girls who lives there is involved in this crime. Is puppet mastering this whole thing.

• 1:04:00Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, it's just a terrible reverse engineering.

• 1:04:03Speaker 02

  Exactly, so it's logical if you assume.

• 1:04:07Dax Shepard?

  It's impossible to break in in that manner.

• 1:04:09Speaker 02

  Exactly, yeah. So the alternative is someone did break into our house, and they did break in through that window. And I don't fucking care what you say. That's the one that they chose.

• 1:04:16Dax Shepard?

  It's not the most logical entrance.

• 1:04:18Speaker 02

  Also, what's logical about breaking in? It's all.

• 1:04:21Dax Shepard?

  Well, I see his point that that window was kind of high up. There were easier windows. But again, I see his point, but you can't build everything on top of that.

• 1:04:29Speaker 02

  Right, he couldn't distinguish between what is a fact and what is an opinion. He was looking at a number of facts, and then he drew a conclusion, which was his opinion, from those facts. When I talk to him, because I continue to talk to him to this day, that is a sticking point where he's just like. But this is a fact. No burglar would ever break in through that window.

• 1:04:48Dax Shepard?

  Right.

• 1:04:48Speaker 02

  And I'm like, well, that's not a fact. That's an opinion.

• 1:04:50Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 1:04:51Speaker 02

  A fact is that here's a window and here are other windows and this one's broken and other ones are not broken. Those are facts.

• 1:04:58Dax Shepard?

  Yes.

• 1:04:59Speaker 02

  Your interpretation of those facts is not a fact.

• 1:05:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:05:02Speaker 02

  It's an opinion.

• 1:05:03Speaker 01

  Again, the fact that only a woman would cover the body. It's like, that is not a fact.

• 1:05:08Speaker 02

  That's not a fact. That's an opinion.

• 1:05:10Dax Shepard?

  Right.

• 1:05:10Speaker 02

  But you're treating it as a fact because you are so confident in your perception of reality that you are willing to impose it. And that's the danger.

• 1:05:18Dax Shepard?

  So, okay, I'm still a little confused on this part.

• 1:05:21Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:05:21Dax Shepard?

  At some point, they hand you a piece of paper and it's a long confession in Italian?

• 1:05:28Speaker 02

  Yeah. So what they do is, once they've completely broken me down and I don't know what's true or not anymore, and they've invited me to remember the truth, AKA imagine an alternative memory. I try to imagine an alternative memory.

• 1:05:42Dax Shepard?

  Are you open to that notion? Because you're just so, at this point, exhausted.

• 1:05:46Speaker 02

  I'm very scared.

• 1:05:47Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:47Speaker 02

  And they finally bring a translator in. It's the middle of the night. I'm exhausted. I haven't been able to sleep anyway these five days because my friend has been fricking murdered.

• 1:05:56Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 1:05:56Speaker 02

  And I'm scared and I don't know what's going on. And they start telling me that what I think is true is wrong. And I'm like, I have actual memories of being at my boyfriend's house. And they're like, well, the mind will do crazy things. Doesn't that seem like other nights that you were at your boyfriend's house? Maybe your mind is trying to cover up the fact that you've witnessed something terrible.

• 1:06:19Speaker 01

  I mean, this is my opinion. This isn't a fact. But I don't think people who murder don't want to murder and then they do. I mean, obviously for self-defense and things like that, that's a different case. But like, I didn't want to murder anyone, but I guess I blacked out and murdered. That doesn't happen.

• 1:06:34Dax Shepard?

  It's like Paul Bloom saying, there's no hidden memories. Remember he just said that?

• 1:06:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, he thinks there's no repressed memories. It's not real.

• 1:06:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, and I think, I don't know what's really going on in our human minds because there's so much that we don't know about our own minds.

• 1:06:46Dax Shepard?

  Sure.

• 1:06:46Speaker 02

  That's right. Maybe there is such a thing as repressed memories. All I know is that the evidence has shown that the mere idea of a repressed Memory has been used by law enforcement and psychologists. And it is the reason why the whole satanic panic happened.

• 1:07:01Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 1:07:02Speaker 02

  Because they're like, you don't remember being a part of a satanic ritual, but you have depression today and it must derive from something.

• 1:07:09Dax Shepard?

  You're in a trance.

• 1:07:10Speaker 02

  Maybe you were molested as part of a satanic sex crime thing. And then you're like, maybe. This is called cognitive opening. A cognitive opening is when something happens in your life that leads you to be more receptive to new ideas and new ideology. And typically that happens when something tragic and unexpected occurs. And so here I am in a panic because all of these cops are super mad at me. They lie to me and they tell me they have physical proof that I was there when the crime occurred. I'm like, how is that even physically possible? And then they're saying to me, well, because you are a victim of this whole thing. You just witnessed it and you don't remember. But here's the thing, we're gonna have to punish you if you don't remember

• 1:07:55Speaker 02

  because people are gonna think that you're just trying to help the murderer. And so we really need you to remember what happened now.

• 1:08:03Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:08:03Speaker 02

  Because this is the moment.

• 1:08:04Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:05Speaker 02

  And they find this text message on my phone from the night of the murder where I'm texting back and forth with my boss. I waitressed every once in a while at this local pub. Again, miscommunication. They misread my text message. He had texted me and said, hey, it's a slow day. You don't have to come in tonight. So I texted back, certo, ci vediamo più tardi, buona serata. Certainly, see you later, have a good night. They read, see you later, as see you tonight. And so they say, here's proof that you're lying to us. Here's proof that you met with this Patrick person instead of being with your boyfriend. And so here's proof that you're either lying or you don't remember what really happened. What did Patrick do?

• 1:08:48Speaker 01

  And the translator didn't say like colloquially, that's an American thing.

• 1:08:51Dax Shepard?

  Well, we didn't have a translator yet.

• 1:08:54Speaker 02

  The translator came later. And her big contribution to this whole thing was to tell me a story about how she was once in a car crash. And she was just driving along in her car and then crashed and woke up in the hospital. And she blacked out.

• 1:09:12Speaker 03

  Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert if you dare.

• 1:09:18Dax Shepard?

  This episode is brought to you by ServiceNow. Look, I have my dream job. I get to talk to folks I admire like crazy and ask them virtually any question that I want to. I can't imagine a better way to spend my time. But even dream jobs have some not so dreamy parts. The stuff that gets in the way of the actual work. Now that's where ServiceNow's AI specialists come in. They don't just tell you what you should do about your busy work. They actually do it, start to finish. Cases closed, requests handled, no extra work for you. So you and your team can focus on what matters most. Which for me is, are they obsessed with male bodies on the same level as I am?

• 1:10:00Speaker 01

  They never are.

• 1:10:01Dax Shepard?

  To learn how to put AI to work for people, visit servicenow.com. We get support from Instagram Teen Accounts. So we talk a lot on this show about how the world is different now than when we were growing up. And one of the biggest differences is obviously social media. And I think a lot of people wonder, okay, what's actually being done to make it safer for teenagers?

• 1:10:23Speaker 01

  Which is a fair question.

• 1:10:24Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, so Instagram has got something called Teen Accounts, and they come with automatic protections built in by default. So anyone between 13 and 17 is automatically placed into this experience. They get age-appropriate content settings, contact limits, so that by default, only people they're already connected to can message them. And time management tools, daily time limit reminders, and also sleep mode that mutes notifications from 10:00 PM to 7:00 AM.

• 1:10:50Speaker 01

  Sleep mode is genius.

• 1:10:52Dax Shepard?

  Right? And here's the thing, for anyone under 16, a parent has to give permission to change any of those settings to be less strict. The guardrails are on, and Instagram keeps building new safety features to create age-appropriate experiences for teens.

• 1:11:07Speaker 01

  I am really glad Instagram's helping to give parents peace of mind with Teen Accounts.

• 1:11:11Dax Shepard?

  Learn more about Teen Accounts and Instagram's ongoing work to protect teens online at instagram.com/teenaccounts.

• 1:11:20Dax Shepard?

  We get support by Peloton. You know that feeling when you're spiraling over a problem and you just can't figure it out? When that happens to me, I need a change of pace. And I've found that running is the best way. It takes my brain out of the driver's seat and I come back with a fresh perspective. Running can be freeing and cathartic and Peloton helps you feel all of that. And now that feeling fits wherever you need it with the new Peloton Tread Flex. It's movable and foldable, designed to fit your life. So next time you feel stuck, you can go for a run literally anywhere, whether that's in your office, living room, or even the attic. Plus, they have classes with expert instructors and programs to meet you at any level and keep you moving. Let yourself run.

• 1:12:03Dax Shepard?

  Explore the new Peloton Tread Flex at onepeloton.com. We are supported by Walden University. You know that feeling when you've been thinking about making a move, going after the degree, the promotion, the thing you keep telling yourself you'll get to someday? Walden University is built for that moment. For over 50 years, Walden has helped working professionals get the W, the knowledge, the skills, and the confidence to create real change in their careers and communities. Their programs are designed around your life, not the other way around. With Tempo Learning, available in select programs, there are no rigid schedules or set weekly deadlines. You move at your own pace. And Walden's faculty aren't just academics.

• 1:12:47Dax Shepard?

  They're practitioners who bring real-world experience into everything they teach. From your first class to career coaching and beyond, Walden is your partner the whole way. Take the first step and learn at a pace that works for you. Visit waldenu.edu. Walden University. Set a course for change. Certified to operate by CHEV.

• 1:13:15Dax Shepard?

  Now, here's a very troubling aspect of interrogations. Two things I can't stand. One is that they can actually legally say, we have your DNA.

• 1:13:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, the lying.

• 1:13:23Dax Shepard?

  What's crazy and no one's, I don't think, realistic about is you could be presented with a situation that you still reject, but you could go, if they have my DNA, I'm getting the electric chair.

• 1:13:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:13:35Dax Shepard?

  So somehow they have my DNA. I don't know how, they can't have it, but they have it. And I know that the result is electric chair. Or now I lie to get something less. That's a decision you have to make.

• 1:13:48Speaker 02

  Some people cave and think, well, I'm so tired of this interrogation. I know the DNA is wrong, so I'll just tell them what they want to hear so they can leave me alone and then I'll let the evidence prove my innocence. But that's not how it works.

• 1:14:02Dax Shepard?

  Is that, do you think, what happened in your moment?

• 1:14:04Speaker 02

  I was led to believe that I was insane. Psychologists identify two different kinds of false confession. So one is coerced complacent. You just become complacent. You're like, fine, I'll just tell them and like, it'll all be over and then the evidence will sort it all out. That's one kind. Then there's internalized false confessions. So I was led to believe that I witnessed this crime and that I blacked it out temporarily. I'm in this heat of the moment and I'm like overwhelmed and I try to start imagining and then I'm imagining things.

• 1:14:37Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:14:38Speaker 02

  And I don't actually imagine the murder because I still don't know anything about it, but I imagine being in my house. I imagine being with my boss, Patrick. And it's enough for them to type up their own little narrative in Italian, put a sheet of paper in front of me and say, sign it.

• 1:14:58Speaker 02

  And with that, I doomed myself.

• 1:15:02Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. Oh, this is the nightmariest part of the nightmare.

• 1:15:06Speaker 02

  I don't think any of this would have happened if, you know, that.

• 1:15:10Speaker 01

  Are you disassociated from it when you're talking about it right now?

• 1:15:13Speaker 02

  I disassociated in the moment. That was the time when I most had this out of body experience was when they were yelling at me and like hitting me. I completely disassociated and it was like I was watching myself in the room and being like, what is happening? That's the one time I've had that. Today.

• 1:15:28Speaker 01

  Are you there again or? Has enough time passed? I just want to know where you sit.

• 1:15:34Speaker 02

  I mean, it's both. On the one hand, it does feel like it's a whole other life ago. You know, a different person. I was a 20 year old kid who had never had anything bad happen to them. I look back and feel so much pain and sadness for this kid who was going through this. And so in that way, I sort of disassociate. But then I remember what it felt to be hit. I remember their voices. I will never forget. After they get what they want, suddenly they're very nice to me. And they're like, oh, do you need something to eat? The cop who hit me took me down the stairwell. In the stairwell was like, you know, I'm sorry I had to hit you. I really just needed to help you remember the truth. As if like memories are marbles that you just like hit.

• 1:16:13Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:14Speaker 02

  You know, the bottle.

• 1:16:15Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. Yeah. Now, do you have, and I hate asking this because my journey with getting over being molested was, people said, oh, it's not your fault. And I was like, yeah, but I remember. Ooh, I don't like this situation, but I want this thing. I did ignore my instincts, right? I had to forgive myself ultimately.

• 1:16:34Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 1:16:35Dax Shepard?

  I just put myself in your shoes. I think I would have tortured myself about that night a lot. I think I would have shame about, I should have been stronger. Do you have any of that?

• 1:16:46Speaker 02

  So I hope you don't mind when I say this. Let me make a comparison. So my situation would be you get molested, right?

• 1:16:54Dax Shepard?

  Uh huh.

• 1:16:55Speaker 02

  And then later you get convicted of seducing your molester.

• 1:17:00Dax Shepard?

  Right, right.

• 1:17:02Speaker 02

  So that's my current scenario. I'm still convicted of having falsely accused an innocent man during my interrogation. They say I willingly and intentionally knowingly accused an innocent man during my interrogation. Sorry, interview.

• 1:17:22Dax Shepard?

  This is the slander conviction, yes.

• 1:17:24Speaker 02

  In a real way. I am blamed for what happened to me in that room. To this day, I am shamed, I am vilified. Three of the years that I spent in prison, they deemed rightfully served.

• 1:17:37Speaker 01

  Oh my god.

• 1:17:37Dax Shepard?

  Because of the slander conviction.

• 1:17:40Speaker 02

  Eighteen years later, I'm still fighting that. On the one hand, yes, I lived for years, feeling so much guilt and shame and feeling like everything that happened to me in that interrogation room was probably my fault. And it wasn't until I met other wrongly convicted people and I talked to experts in police interrogations that I realized that it wasn't my fault.

• 1:17:59Dax Shepard?

  Right.

• 1:18:00Speaker 02

  But now I spend my entire adult life trying to convince people. And doing so, not just because it helps me with the trauma of it, but also because there are common sense things that we can do to prevent these things from happening in the future. One of them is banning lies during interrogations.

• 1:18:19Speaker 01

  I can't believe that is legal.

• 1:18:21Speaker 02

  It's legal everywhere in the United States. Some states have recognized that minors, anyone 17 and younger, shouldn't be lied to.

• 1:18:31Dax Shepard?

  That was in the Making the Murder doc, remember? They got that poor kid and then he wanted to know if he was still going to the WWE, if he could watch it.

• 1:18:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, Brendan Dassey.

• 1:18:39Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, heartbreaking. Okay, so you were self-flagellating or you weren't?

• 1:18:42Speaker 02

  I was self-flagellating for a long time.

• 1:18:44Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:45Speaker 02

  You think if only I had been stronger, if only I had been smarter, if only I had been more courageous. I thought that what happened to me was that I was a coward.

• 1:18:52Dax Shepard?

  That's why I asked, that's my fear, because god, no, you weren't. If there's any fucking headline of your story, it's that you're indomitable.

• 1:19:00Speaker 01

  You're so resilient.

• 1:19:01Dax Shepard?

  You're really indomitable.

• 1:19:03Speaker 02

  Thanks, guys.

• 1:19:04Dax Shepard?

  No, it is.

• 1:19:05Speaker 01

  I hope people are telling you that every day.

• 1:19:08Speaker 02

  You know, it's funny, there has been one moment in my whole life of this where I have felt indomitable and unstoppable. And that was when I decided to go and confront my prosecutor.

• 1:19:20Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, let's get to that.

• 1:19:21Speaker 02

  Sorry, yeah.

• 1:19:23Dax Shepard?

  Four years, you're convicted twice, ultimately a higher court does throw it out.

• 1:19:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, four years in prison, eight years on trial. I spent the first four years in prison and then another four years in freedom but facing extradition, trying to be a person but stalked by paparazzi.

• 1:19:39Dax Shepard?

  I heard you talking about this and I think this is really profound. You're in that prison for four years, the entire time going, I just gotta get my old life back. You can see your old life. You gonna go eat sushi when you get home, right? The irony is, even if that event didn't happen to you, there would never be getting your old life back.

• 1:19:58Speaker 02

  I know.

• 1:19:59Dax Shepard?

  Even if you were just there as a student, you're 20, you're gonna start another chapter. You were never gonna get your old life back.

• 1:20:05Speaker 02

  I was living in a state of denial because this thing had sort of taken me out of what felt like my real life.

• 1:20:11Dax Shepard?

  Yes.

• 1:20:11Speaker 02

  It felt like my real life was going to be there just waiting for me.

• 1:20:15Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, but it never was going to be.

• 1:20:17Speaker 02

  No.

• 1:20:17Dax Shepard?

  And that's probably a very hard lesson to learn from your perspective because there's such an obvious explanation of why your life doesn't exist anymore. But also it wouldn't have. Anyway, so yeah, you return home and now you're 24 and you've had this entire experience and you're known around the world. And the bravery to not get defeated by that moment where you come home and you realize like, oh no, I have nothing, basically. I'm kind of back to the drawing board. I'm gonna have to start and build an entirely new life.

• 1:20:46Speaker 02

  I had a very hard time and this is something that both Monica and I as executive producers and of course KJ because she, yes, Monica Lewinsky, who's executive producing the show as well. What was really important for us was to show the aftermath. Like you think you know what this story is. There is a whole life that you have to figure out and rebuild from below ground.

• 1:21:11Dax Shepard?

  Yes, yes, yes.

• 1:21:12Speaker 02

  After something as traumatic as this, it's not pretty. I'm still a 24 year old kid who's in some ways deeply matured and in other ways is completely oblivious and naive.

• 1:21:24Dax Shepard?

  Oh, so you're gonna go get a job where everyone there knows you?

• 1:21:28Speaker 02

  And hope that the people who are sending you death threats don't just show up at your job and murder you.

• 1:21:32Dax Shepard?

  You said you made a lot of mistakes.

• 1:21:33Speaker 02

  We are able to show some of this in the show, but part of it was me wanting to act like I could have a normal life. I would be in hiding and hiding and hiding and then I'd be like, but I just wanna go to my friend's Halloween party, be a normal person. And then I'm followed by paparazzi and we don't show all the mistakes that I made in the show. I really pushed for more episodes so we could get really into the mistakes, but if anyone's really Curious about some of the really bad mistakes I made. That's what's in my book, Free My Search for Meaning, and I'll give you one example. That's in the book, but didn't make it into the show just because the real purpose of the show is to show me going back to Italy to confront my prosecutor and what were all the things that led up to that.

• 1:22:16Speaker 02

  This little detour that I talk about in my book, so dating is kind of hard when you're, you know, a sex monster in the eyes of the world. This just is so sad. Dating's hard enough. Yes. So then I stumble upon a very, you know, handsome, nice person who tells me that he just got out of jail for a crime he didn't commit.

• 1:22:40Speaker 02

  And I'm immediately predisposed to believe him and to sympathize with him. And because I have spent years now trying to navigate a world that doesn't seem to feel like there's a place for me that just wants me to disappear and wouldn't be surprised or upset if I just offed myself. Here's somebody who could understand me.

• 1:23:01Dax Shepard?

  Yes, yes.

• 1:23:02Speaker 02

  I'm all in on this person. And then I realize that he was not, in fact, innocent of domestic violence and breaking and entering. And in fact, this person who now is in my home is very, very much like the man who murdered my roommate. Yeah. Oh, my God. What do I do? Because when I tell him to leave, he doesn't leave. I think I'm rid of him and then I come home and he's broken into my house. And the last time I called the police. Yeah, exactly. For someone breaking into my house. I was the one who got sent to prison. What do I do? I'm still on trial.

• 1:23:46Speaker 02

  And if word got out that I was shacking up with a criminal.

• 1:23:50Dax Shepard?

  Oh, my God.

• 1:23:50Speaker 02

  Oh, my God, I know. It would be over.

• 1:23:52Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, it would vindicate everyone.

• 1:23:55Speaker 02

  So I'm trapped and my stepdad has to come and save me again.

• 1:24:03Speaker 02

  And I'm like, I can't trust anyone and I can't even trust myself.

• 1:24:08Dax Shepard?

  Oh.

• 1:24:09Speaker 02

  That's so unfair.

• 1:24:10Dax Shepard?

  Also, I want you to take my number because I have a hero complex. And I would love to show up at any point and tell any man that they have to get the fuck out of your house.

• 1:24:18Speaker 02

  I love that. I will take that number.

• 1:24:20Dax Shepard?

  Please, please, please, this is gonna be a perfect trauma match.

• 1:24:23Speaker 02

  Sorry, I don't know. Are you dated? Are you married?

• 1:24:26Dax Shepard?

  She's married.

• 1:24:26Speaker 02

  I'm now married now.

• 1:24:27Speaker 01

  Okay, so we're down.

• 1:24:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'll show you my baby pics. Aww. I'll look for the swimsuit ones.

• 1:24:32Dax Shepard?

  Chris Robinson. Chris Robinson, author. She reviewed his book, then she went and saw.

• 1:24:37Speaker 02

  It's a really good meet cute. I love meet cutes. I wasn't on Tinder, obviously. Yeah, that makes me feel good that you have someone. Yeah, he was not a true crime person. He got two master's degrees in poetry and was totally oblivious. Good. And then went out of his way to not Google me when he became my friend and only started sort of grappling with the entire ordeal. When we started dating nine months later and he started having people Photoshop knives into pictures of him on Facebook. And he was like, oh.

• 1:25:10Dax Shepard?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:25:11Speaker 02

  Like, he knew there was a thing in his approach to meeting me and falling in love with me. That wasn't the thing that mediated our human to human interaction.

• 1:25:21Dax Shepard?

  Right. And in fact, that was what was such a great relief about it for you.

• 1:25:24Speaker 02

  It was a huge gift.

• 1:25:25Dax Shepard?

  He was hardly interested in that part of you.

• 1:25:28Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 1:25:28Dax Shepard?

  And soon as I heard you say that, I was like, she's gonna hate me because I'm gonna go right after all this stuff. That's why I prefaced it by saying like, I gotta go through the thing.

• 1:25:36Speaker 02

  Well, this is an interview. I mean, this is not an interrogation, but it is an interview. You have no right. No right.

• 1:25:45Dax Shepard?

  Rob's a paralegal. He's not a full attorney yet. Okay, so you're home and what comes first, your mother, and God bless her, she kind of forces you to go to this exoneree conference.

• 1:25:57Speaker 02

  Yes. My mom is noticing that I'm struggling, also because, again, I'm still on trial and I'm convicted again.

• 1:26:04Dax Shepard?

  I would be just as fascinated to talk to your mother.

• 1:26:07Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 1:26:07Dax Shepard?

  Because actually, I weirdly would rather go through this myself than have to watch my child go through this.

• 1:26:12Speaker 02

  Thankfully, she's in therapy and has a great therapist who has been very supportive. And I think she has really worked through a lot. But you're right, the second I gave birth to my daughter, my mom's in the room. And my daughter's screaming because she's just been given birth to.

• 1:26:29Dax Shepard?

  She's in a very loud, big space now.

• 1:26:30Speaker 02

  Yes, but also a painful experience that she just went through. She's in pain and they put her on my chest and I can't take her pain away from her.

• 1:26:41Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:26:42Speaker 02

  My first words ever as a parent were, I'm sorry, because I couldn't.

• 1:26:47Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:26:47Speaker 02

  And then I look over at my mom and my mom was in the exact same position.

• 1:26:53Dax Shepard?

  For years.

• 1:26:53Speaker 02

  For years.

• 1:26:54Speaker 01

  Oh, my God. I mean.

• 1:26:56Dax Shepard?

  The level of powerlessness you both were experiencing, and I'm sure your father and your stepfather, is so monumental.

• 1:27:02Speaker 01

  And having to be strong for what's on your shoulders.

• 1:27:04Dax Shepard?

  Oh, yeah, I'm here to protect you for your whole life. That's my commitment to you. And I can't. I'm overwhelmed by this big machine, too.

• 1:27:11Speaker 02

  So Sharon Horgan plays my mom.

• 1:27:13Dax Shepard?

  She's one of my favorite actors from Bad Sisters, which she also wrote, right?

• 1:27:17Speaker 02

  Yes, yes. Super, super talented. Amazing. This is a really cool role for her because so many people associate her with being funny. This is a very tense role. But also, can I just say that Grace Van Patten is fricking amazing? Do you guys know Grace Van Patten?

• 1:27:32Speaker 01

  So I just started Tell Me Lies, very sexy show.

• 1:27:35Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:27:36Speaker 01

  Extremely sexy show. I just recently met her via that. And then I saw she was in this. I was like, oh, my God, exciting.

• 1:27:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, no, I can't wait for you to see her in this because she is phenomenal.

• 1:27:47Speaker 01

  Oh, that's awesome.

• 1:27:48Speaker 02

  Like, she had to do so much to do this role.

• 1:27:52Dax Shepard?

  And she's got to also, as an actor, learn Italian because you don't speak Italian very well at the beginning. But by the end of the trial, you give your closing statement in Italian.

• 1:28:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, thank you for appreciating that nuance because, again, one of the things about this show is that miscommunication that's happening. And she not only has to become fluent in Italian in order to portray this role, she has to portray quasi-fluency. She has to portray a progression of fluency over time.

• 1:28:21Dax Shepard?

  Okay, so Mom, though, encourages you to go to this, I guess it's the Innocent Conference?

• 1:28:26Speaker 02

  The Innocence Network Conference. There's an Innocence Project, which was the first ever project based in New York. And now there are projects. That are separate entities all throughout the United States, now around the world. There wasn't at the time, but now there's an Italy Innocence Project. So there are all these disparate entities that all have to do their own fundraising and they have their own cases. But they all are a part of something called the Innocence Network. So this network is what allows for everyone to stay connected and communicating and like sharing research. And once a year, they host a conference where all of these people from all over the world,

• 1:29:06Speaker 02

  but primarily here in the United States, come together in one space to again have panel discussions where they say, oh, this is how we communicated with the prosecutor in the case, or this is a cold case unit. Here's how you talk to them. All of the minute detail of like what's involved, how to exonerate someone. What's the latest research on shaken baby syndrome? All of that kind of stuff.

• 1:29:26Dax Shepard?

  Yes, handwriting analysis, all these debunked things.

• 1:29:30Speaker 02

  Exactly. Recently, my prosecutor sent me a handwriting analysis thing and I was like, why are you doing?

• 1:29:37Speaker 01

  Oh my god.

• 1:29:38Speaker 02

  Anyway, so, but there's also all of these exonerated people, people who've spent time in prison for something they didn't do. The vast majority of them are men.

• 1:29:45Dax Shepard?

  And black men.

• 1:29:46Speaker 02

  Very disproportionately, also Latino men disproportionately.

• 1:29:50Dax Shepard?

  Non-white folks disproportionately.

• 1:29:52Speaker 02

  I mean, and to say that there are white folks there, but disproportionately, we're talking about people of color. And so it's men who have spent way longer in prison than I have, because the appeals process here in the United States is so incredibly difficult. In Italy, it's actually easier to appeal. I spent four years in prison. I've met people who have spent 40.

• 1:30:14Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:30:14Speaker 02

  That's the scenario I'm suddenly in that I had no idea existed. And I'm connecting with people who immediately reassure me that I don't have to explain anything to them. That there is not this barrier between me and them. Me, who feels like I'm doomed to have to explain myself to other people for the rest of my life. They're like, no, no, no, girl.

• 1:30:36Speaker 01

  We know.

• 1:30:37Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:30:37Speaker 01

  Oh, that's so good.

• 1:30:38Dax Shepard?

  Well, someone there says to you, thank God you were wrongly incarcerated.

• 1:30:42Speaker 02

  Yeah. All these men who go kind of unrecognized in the world, like no one gives a crap. A lot of people don't believe that wrongful convictions are really a thing. A lot of people to this day, look at people who are exonerated by DNA and they go, they're really guilty. There just must be some other explanation for why the DNA of this other rapist was in this crime. They probably committed together, even though they don't know each other. Like there are people who like find reasons to still think these people who are demonstrably innocent are actually guilty. And so there's this resistance to believing that wrongful convictions are a thing.

• 1:31:14Speaker 01

  Again, because if they're a thing. Two things. It could be me and that means there's still killers out there. If those people are innocent, where's the killer?

• 1:31:24Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 1:31:25Speaker 01

  That's too scary. So it must be that they did it.

• 1:31:28Speaker 02

  And then they're like, and then you came along. The little white girl who's college educated and had everything going for her. You get wrongly convicted and suddenly people are like, oh, it really could happen. And a lot of them are also like, here we are, these big tough guys in prison who are struggling. And then we see you, this little white girl in prison. And we think if she can get through this, I better be able to get through this. So I connect with them on this deep human level. And I come away feeling like I'm not alone and this is way bigger than me. And I start to feel purposeful again.

• 1:32:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:32:09Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:32:10Speaker 02

  And then that purposefulness leads me to make a very unorthodox choice, which is to go and talk to my prosecutor face to face and figure it out.

• 1:32:24Dax Shepard?

  I love this. I saw an interview where you said, I want to be incredibly clear. I was not in search of forgiveness. I was in search of comprehension, understanding how this happened. I must know how this person, who I'll grant isn't an evil person, how this happened between us.

• 1:32:42Speaker 02

  Yeah. If I assume that this person had no intention to throw an innocent girl in jail, well, something went wrong.

• 1:32:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:32:50Speaker 02

  And I want to understand what that is. And so I reach out to him. And initially, he's like, why are you trying to talk to me? In the history of histories, no defendant has ever attempted to contact their prosecutor after the fact. I don't even know if this is legal.

• 1:33:07Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:33:08Speaker 02

  Eventually, he agreed to communicate with me. But then the pandemic happens. And so I can't actually see him face to face, but I've already established contact.

• 1:33:18Dax Shepard?

  Is this via writing email or talking on the phone?

• 1:33:20Speaker 02

  So at first, it was writing a letter and it was delivered by my friend from prison, the priest, who also happened to know my prosecutor very well. He plays a big role in the show. We had a very beautiful relationship because here I am, the godless heathen, and here he is, my best friend in prison, the Catholic priest.

• 1:33:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:33:37Speaker 02

  And we bond over music and we bond over philosophy. And he's just a good person.

• 1:33:43Speaker 01

  He was in prison?

• 1:33:44Speaker 02

  Yes, so he's the priest who is assigned to the prison.

• 1:33:48Speaker 01

  Okay, got it. I didn't know if he was in prison and also happened to be a Catholic.

• 1:33:51Speaker 02

  No, no, no, no, no. He was the spiritual advisor of the prison.

• 1:33:54Dax Shepard?

  Which at first you're like, I'm good.

• 1:33:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. At first, I'm like, you can't help me. Are you going to tell me that God put me in prison for a reason? Nah-uh.

• 1:34:01Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:34:02Speaker 02

  Not having that. But he's the kind of guy who cries at the end of Kung Fu Panda. Like, that's my kind of guy.

• 1:34:07Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:34:08Speaker 02

  We connected on this human level and he delivered this first letter to my prosecutor. And it took a while of convincing, but eventually he responded and we started a email correspondence. In reality, that took place over years while the pandemic was going on. But then ultimately, it led to, as soon as it was safe to travel, I booked a ticket to Italy. I told my family about this and they were all in opposition, understandably. I told all my exoneree friends about this and they were like, what are you doing? They understood more because they were like, I know that you just want to hear from the person who hurt you, that they acknowledge that they hurt you and that they're sorry that they hurt you. All of them were like, but that's not what's going to happen.

• 1:34:53Speaker 02

  You are going there to be further traumatized.

• 1:34:57Speaker 01

  Yes, exactly.

• 1:34:58Speaker 02

  It's not worth it. And they were right in a big way. If I went to Italy to get something from my prosecutor, I was doomed to fail. It would take a Herculean effort for my prosecutor to come out of his own.

• 1:35:15Speaker 02

  Perspective and really truly recognize the harm that he had caused. Yeah. Because in his mind, justifiably so, he's like, I was just doing my job and I believed in what I was doing.

• 1:35:29Dax Shepard?

  This is again, this weird parallel between you guys, which is he too has to question how great his grasp is on reality. How much can he trust himself? So this is so crazy that the victim and the, you know, could be confronting similar things.

• 1:35:46Speaker 02

  Yeah. I don't want to like, give it away because it's really beautifully depicted in the show. But how my prosecutor is on the one hand, digging in his heels and being defensive. And on the other hand, is evolving in his understanding merely by the fact that the person he thought he was prosecuting would not have done what I just did. Yeah.

• 1:36:12Dax Shepard?

  Right, right, right.

• 1:36:13Speaker 02

  And so he's like, how do I make sense of this? And he finds himself in conflict with himself for maybe the first time in his life. Yeah. That's not an easy process. One thing that KJ talks about when she was like, how do I describe what is happening in this show and what happened in real life? And she talks about it. She calls it the anatomy of bias. These were people who convinced themselves of the story at the same time that they were trying to convince other people. It was a feedback loop. It's called confirmation bias. There are lots of things, that decision to say the break in was staged, that is an anchoring bias.

• 1:36:57Speaker 02

  That means that my anchor for interpreting reality is this. Yeah. Which I'm recognizing as a fact, even though it's an opinion. If your foundation is faulty, then of course, your whole thing is a house of cards, even if it is logically pieced together. Right, exactly. So it's more complicated than a bad guy who doesn't care if there's an innocent person in prison. He's not a bad guy who just doesn't care if there's an innocent person in prison. He's a guy who is acting logically and believes that he is acting with integrity. So how could it be also true? That he was so, so wrong.

• 1:37:31Speaker 01

  Right, exactly. It's so complicated.

• 1:37:33Speaker 02

  It's so complicated. And I think that's a really important message that I want to get across is we are all human. Sometimes we encounter each other and there's a perfect fucking storm.

• 1:37:43Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:37:45Speaker 02

  We should recognize that it didn't just happen in Perugia, Italy in 2007. That happens all the time, every day. And what kind of perfect storms are we participating in or inciting?

• 1:37:59Dax Shepard?

  And how do we interrupt those?

• 1:38:00Speaker 02

  How do we interrupt that? What do we do to stop the boulder from rolling down the hill?

• 1:38:06Dax Shepard?

  I love that you went and saw him. I love that you have found some empathy for him and some level of compassion and then accidentally some forgiveness probably.

• 1:38:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, so here's the thing. When you see someone who's struggling, you feel for them. I was not watching this person struggling in front of me and thinking,

• 1:38:26Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, motherfucker.

• 1:38:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, no, that was not.

• 1:38:29Speaker 01

  You know why? Because you're not a murderer.

• 1:38:31Speaker 02

  Right. Well, you know, like, I was like, oh, my God. And I told you before, there was a one moment in my life where I felt unbeatable and unstoppable. It was in that moment where I was like, I thought he had all this power over me. I have all this power over him. And what am I going to do with it? And I knew in that moment that the way that I was holding him was with care. I was not holding this person who was struggling and using his weakness to crush him. That's not who I am. I saw him and I was like, here's this fragile bird. How do I hold him gently?

• 1:39:05Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:39:06Speaker 01

  Something you weren't really given the grace of.

• 1:39:11Dax Shepard?

  It's in the rearview mirror to some degree. I don't want to be insensitive, but do you think if you're not already there, do you see somehow that you will go, oh, wow, I was kind of perfectly built for this situation and I'm going to make a lot out of this situation? And maybe it happened to the right person. I mean, can you have that perspective?

• 1:39:29Speaker 02

  I definitely have had the thought, thank God, this didn't happen to any of my sisters. Thank God it happened to me. Weirdly, I discovered, you're right. And this is where it gets so interesting, is when my priest friend would say something like, God has a plan and everything is for the best, I'd always be like, fuck that.

• 1:39:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly.

• 1:39:48Speaker 02

  But then he told me. If you pray to God for strength, God doesn't give you strength. He gives you the opportunity to be strong. And I was like, oh, my God. I don't know anything about anything. There's so much that we don't know, but I do know that there have been moments in my life where I have felt completely in tune with the universe. And I would not have come to that place had I not had everything happen to me before it. And that leaves me feeling eerie. Yeah. That leaves me feeling spiritual. I do a lot of meditating now, which is my form of spirituality. It's being super present in the present moment and just noticing the feelings, noticing

• 1:40:31Speaker 02

  the thoughts, observing, and then realizing that whatever the fuck is going on, you're OK. And I wouldn't have come to that place if that weren't for all of the things that came before it.

• 1:40:41Dax Shepard?

  I have two last curiosities. One is, what about nightmares?

• 1:40:44Speaker 02

  Yes, I've had nightmares and I do get triggered by things. And to this day, I feel really uncomfortable in crowds. I'm less concerned about that, the thing that really bothers me that I still haven't figured out. And I'd be curious to know if you guys have any insight into this whatsoever, because I really don't know how to carry it, is the fact that because I'm known from my roommate's death, in a weird way, I feel like I'm carrying not just my own legacy with me, but also hers. And I always feel like, for better or for worse, I'm being compared to her. You're linked to her. I'm linked to her. And that's not necessarily a bad thing, because she was a really nice person and she was really sweet to me and we had great times together.

• 1:41:27Speaker 02

  But I have to go through years of trauma just to reach my memories of her. To this day, I know that some people will watch this show and go, you're not the real victim. Your roommate was.

• 1:41:40Dax Shepard?

  This is the, you said it, I wrote it down, the single victim narrative?

• 1:41:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, the single victim fallacy.

• 1:41:46Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, your mom's a victim, your parents are victims.

• 1:41:49Speaker 02

  Raphael is a victim. So many people are victims in this story and you want to honor all of that and you want to grieve all of that. And at the same time, I'm only one person. I have my own story. You've enough to carry on your own. And I have a lot, that's a lot to carry, but I also get it.

• 1:42:05Dax Shepard?

  Can I ask you, would you be having this tension?

• 1:42:10Dax Shepard?

  In the absence of people actually sending you messages saying, you know, who couldn't get married today, Meredith.

• 1:42:17Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:42:17Dax Shepard?

  You know, who can't have a baby today, which happened to her a bunch of times. Paparazzi photographed her wedding when she tried to keep secret and people were like, you know, who can't have a wedding, Meredith. So how much of it is driven by your own sense of that? And how much do you think is driven externally?

• 1:42:31Speaker 02

  You know, that's a really good question.

• 1:42:33Dax Shepard?

  Because I can give you the tip that being famous for 30 years has taught me, or 23 years, whatever, is simply, I regularly have to go, wait, hold on a second. Does anyone in my real life that knows me think that? If anyone that knows me has that opinion, I got some self-reflection to do.

• 1:42:50Speaker 02

  Sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:42:51Dax Shepard?

  But if I can't find a single person who knows me, who has this opinion, there's no work for me to do.

• 1:42:56Speaker 02

  Fair. No one that I know thinks that. However, what I maybe am grappling with, and it's like aggravated by the fact that stuff like that gets thrown at me, is survivor's guilt.

• 1:43:08Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, right.

• 1:43:09Speaker 02

  Of course. Like, there's no reason why two young girls go to study abroad and only one of them should get to go home. What good thing can you get out of that? Except be grateful for life because it is so precious and can be taken away from you in an instant. That's sort of the big takeaway I get. But I still have that sort of survivor's guilt feeling that comes from within, but is also deeply imposed from without.

• 1:43:35Speaker 01

  Exacerbated. Yeah. I mean, that's the thing. Let's say you weren't accused, you didn't go to jail, whatever. You just experienced this. Your roommate was killed in your study abroad. Forget the rest. I'm probably going to get in trouble for saying this, but this is what would happen if this happened to me. I'd go home, I'd be so sad that that happened for the rest of my life. I'd be like, this horrible thing happened. But I'm not responsible for carrying the story of it, her life, her legacy, anything. I just get to have my feeling about it and move on. You don't. You have so much, publicly and personally, to hold in regards to her that no one else in this situation would, with regular trauma.

• 1:44:20Speaker 01

  So that is fair for you to be like, I wish I could put this down. And I don't know how to tell you how to do that. Maybe Monica could help.

• 1:44:29Speaker 02

  The closest I've come to it was how we portrayed her in this show because one of the things that was really important to me was again, to make her a real person again, not this stereotype about an uptight British girl that was in the public imagination for so long. And grieve her, like part of art and the beauty of art is that it's a way to process your emotions. I found one of the big takeaways for me from working on this project and co-writing the final episode with KJ and all of that was this is my opportunity to grieve through art.

• 1:45:04Dax Shepard?

  Mm hmm. Okay. The one thing that I'm wondering how it's impacted your life is. So here's what's really bizarre about fame in my own experience. The amazing part about it is it confirms you exist.

• 1:45:18Speaker 02

  That is true. Either this is the matrix made just for me or yes.

• 1:45:23Dax Shepard?

  Yes. What is fascinating about being famous is we all have this kind of weird fear that we don't exist or we're not important or we're not real. We're not impacting, you know, that we're pointless. The mere fact of many strangers knowing you confirms you exist.

• 1:45:37Speaker 02

  It confirms that a version of you exists in the public imagination.

• 1:45:42Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:45:43Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:45:43Dax Shepard?

  But here's my own experience with it. Here's what's so complicated about fame, which is I wanted it. I got it. It was uncomfortable for me. And then mostly I wanted to go back to being able to just watch other people at restaurants. And then also I'm walking through the airport one day in Detroit and not one person looks at me, which I'm used to. And then I have this weird panic of like, oh, maybe I don't exist anymore. And I'm just have to be honest, what a weird relationship I have with this. It's like, I wanted it. I don't know that I enjoyed it. And then I'm also now afraid it's going to go away because I'll not exist anymore.

• 1:46:17Speaker 01

  But you wanted it. That's a huge difference.

• 1:46:19Speaker 02

  Wants to know they exist.

• 1:46:20Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:46:21Dax Shepard?

  That's why I'm specifically.

• 1:46:22Speaker 02

  Validation. Yes.

• 1:46:24Speaker 01

  Very different is wanting a lot of people to know you exist, wanting strangers to know you exist. That's. Fame, that's different. You were thrust into fame. You didn't choose it. You didn't, as far as I know, want it. Maybe you did. I don't know. Maybe you wanted to be an actor.

• 1:46:37Speaker 02

  That wasn't the plan.

• 1:46:39Dax Shepard?

  You weren't pursuing any kind of performing art.

• 1:46:42Speaker 01

  So you didn't go through the ride of like, oh, I want to be validated and appreciated and known by strangers. And then, oh, actually, it's not that fun to be appreciated by strangers. It wasn't that.

• 1:46:53Dax Shepard?

  But I will push back. Certainly, there are people that came out to become Kim Kardashian.

• 1:46:59Speaker 01

  Sure. Yeah, yeah.

• 1:46:59Dax Shepard?

  So I think there's this huge spectrum of, I do think I wanted fame to know I existed. I think it's okay to be sympathetic to the desire of fame because I think what really is under the desire for fame is the desire of like, I do exist.

• 1:47:13Speaker 01

  I think that's right, but I don't think it applies. I guess is my point.

• 1:47:16Speaker 02

  Well, no, no, but I think he's making an interesting connection here now. It's just like, well, now that I am.

• 1:47:21Speaker 01

  Oh, now you're right.

• 1:47:21Dax Shepard?

  You fully exist.

• 1:47:23Speaker 01

  How do I hold that?

• 1:47:25Dax Shepard?

  Yes. Can you have that same bizarre relationship I have where it's somehow also scary to be completely anonymous again, even though that's what you would want?

• 1:47:34Speaker 02

  Multi-part answer to your question. So one, the very quick part is I did get the worst of the fame thing out of the way first.

• 1:47:44Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, you didn't get any free jeans like I did or a great restaurant, a table at a restaurant.

• 1:47:49Speaker 02

  So like now, weirdly, that I've gone through the most horrible parts of being famous, I'm now weirdly experiencing the nice parts about it.

• 1:47:58Dax Shepard?

  Right.

• 1:47:59Speaker 02

  Someone will text me and say, hey, I didn't commit suicide today because I heard you on a podcast.

• 1:48:05Dax Shepard?

  Right.

• 1:48:05Speaker 02

  That's a amazing feeling. This is human connection. Like, this is the thing that was taken from me that I never thought that I would get back. And now I'm getting it back in all these new and surprising ways. And so that's good.

• 1:48:18Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. You and Monica must have so much shared experience in that way.

• 1:48:22Speaker 02

  Surprisingly, if you were to, you should bring her on. Oh, you have. Okay.

• 1:48:26Dax Shepard?

  We learned of this months ago when we had her on that she was producing this. And I said, you're the perfect person to approach her.

• 1:48:32Speaker 02

  No doubt. She was the perfect, because I knew, how many people out there are forging a path? In precisely the way that I would need to be shown that there actually is even a path. Like she invented

• 1:48:44Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:48:45Speaker 02

  Having to reclaim your own story and how to do it. And she's the one who's been putting herself out there as the Kinney big so that it makes it easier for someone like me.

• 1:48:54Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, she is a success story of coming back and reclaiming.

• 1:49:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, owning her shit and taking the worst and making the most of it. She's so incredible and she's been through some horrible shit.

• 1:49:08Dax Shepard?

  Yes, yes.

• 1:49:09Speaker 02

  I find her to be so inspiring. And the thing that she did for me was made me feel safe to do this. And then, of course, like I got to meet all of the people that I would work with. You know, I worked with Warren Littlefield on this.

• 1:49:20Dax Shepard?

  I love him. He was producing something I wrote and he's one of my favorite people ever.

• 1:49:23Speaker 02

  He's so smart. Hundreds of people have worked on this show and have been striving so hard to get it right after so long. Was just one of the most validating things. There's this acknowledgement that I have a valid perspective.

• 1:49:36Dax Shepard?

  Yes.

• 1:49:37Speaker 02

  Amazing, but then on top of that, here I am, executive producing and I'm learning the ropes of the industry of storytelling and I love it.

• 1:49:46Dax Shepard?

  Champs.

• 1:49:47Speaker 02

  The best of the best and they're taking care of me and guiding me and not making me feel pushed aside at all, but inviting me in. I feel like I'm very lucky.

• 1:49:56Dax Shepard?

  Yes.

• 1:49:56Speaker 02

  And I know that that's not the typical way that you arrive at that place because you guys are in this industry. You know, like it's fighting and scraping and not getting the credit you deserve until you are in a position to demand the credit you deserve. And this is a tough industry.

• 1:50:10Speaker 01

  I would say you didn't get the credit you deserve until you got the credit you deserved as well. So there's similarities.

• 1:50:16Speaker 02

  Fair enough.

• 1:50:17Dax Shepard?

  I loved it. It's a great, great show. For people who don't know, like Warren also produces Fargo and Handmaid's Tale. I mean, he's a beast and everyone that worked on this, the actors are incredible.

• 1:50:28Speaker 02

  The Italian actors also Francesco Acquaroli, who plays my prosecutor. He's a legend, but also Giuseppe de Domenico, who plays Raffaele.

• 1:50:38Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:50:39Speaker 02

  I got chills watching him play Raffaele. I'd never seen someone capture his spirit. It's weird how good he is.

• 1:50:48Dax Shepard?

  I felt very bad for him in this whole.

• 1:50:51Speaker 02

  As you should.

• 1:50:51Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:50:52Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 1:50:53Dax Shepard?

  Yes. So, okay, everyone watch The Twisted Tale of Amanda Knox on Hulu and read. Waiting to be heard.

• 1:51:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:51:00Dax Shepard?

  If you love it, because you'll get all the more details. And then your newest book, Free My Search for Meaning.

• 1:51:06Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:51:06Dax Shepard?

  I'm very grateful I got to meet you. I saw that doc years ago and I very much wanted to meet you and just say, my God, you've been through a lot and I admire you.

• 1:51:15Speaker 01

  Oh, thanks. It's really nice to meet you both. Also, a lot of my friends who love your show wanted me to just say, thank you for doing your show.

• 1:51:24Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 1:51:24Speaker 01

  You guys are leaving a really lasting impact on people. So thank you for doing that.

• 1:51:29Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, I was so, so, so privileged to have you. So everybody check out the show, read the book. I hope we get to talk to you again.

• 1:51:35Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:51:35Speaker 04

  I would love to.

• 1:51:36Speaker 01

  Please come back.

• 1:51:36Speaker 04

  Let's do it.

• 1:51:38Dax Shepard?

  I sure hope there weren't any mistakes in that episode, but we'll find out when my mom, Mrs. Monica, comes in and tells us what was wrong. I am a little, I don't know what to do. Should I present him with his hat and matching scarf on? Or he also has a crown?

• 1:51:53Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 1:51:54Dax Shepard?

  Was he in the crown?

• 1:51:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:51:56Dax Shepard?

  Uh oh. Are those mittens? Oh, my goodness.

• 1:52:05Dax Shepard?

  What do you like?

• 1:52:06Speaker 01

  I like both.

• 1:52:06Dax Shepard?

  You like both?

• 1:52:07Speaker 01

  I think he's gonna have to do an outfit change.

• 1:52:10Dax Shepard?

  Okay. I'm gonna, I'll start him in the crown.

• 1:52:13Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:52:13Dax Shepard?

  He deserves it. Okay. Hi.

• 1:52:16Speaker 01

  Hi. We have something very cute happening.

• 1:52:20Dax Shepard?

  Our most special boy got a new outfit from an armcherry.

• 1:52:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:52:26Dax Shepard?

  Who knits baby clothes on Etsy. How cute are these? If you had really put your baby in these little overalls?

• 1:52:31Speaker 01

  I know.

• 1:52:32Dax Shepard?

  Oh, my God.

• 1:52:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, someone sent Groot, for the listeners, someone sent, someone made Groot an incredible outfit, knit these beautiful green overalls.

• 1:52:43Dax Shepard?

  And they're shorts overalls, whatever we call those.

• 1:52:46Speaker 01

  I'll call it shortalls.

• 1:52:47Dax Shepard?

  Shortalls.

• 1:52:48Speaker 01

  Some really cute shoes.

• 1:52:50Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, he's got nice shoes, a nice scarf.

• 1:52:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:52:53Dax Shepard?

  A beautiful crown.

• 1:52:56Dax Shepard?

  But that's not all that came, Monica. He also should get chilly, which it is a little chilly in here. I like it cold. I'm gonna take this crown off for one second. He has a beautiful matching hat, winter hat.

• 1:53:07Speaker 01

  Winter hat.

• 1:53:08Dax Shepard?

  And cute little gloves that they put, you know how they put these in kids' sleeves? They come out the end of their sleeves in the wintertime. Do you know that?

• 1:53:15Speaker 01

  No, I didn't.

• 1:53:16Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, they attach them so the kids don't lose, the little kids, because they're idiots. And they'll lose one of their gloves. You put this attaching string and they hang out the bottom of your coat. And then you put them on when you need it. But I just, as happy as he is, I just want to say thanks about this gesture, because Delta was so excited.

• 1:53:36Speaker 01

  I mean, it's the sweetest thing. Oh, Groot's shoe fell off.

• 1:53:41Dax Shepard?

  Oh, okay.

• 1:53:43Speaker 01

  Um, I want to tell people that in, obviously Groot was in Nashville. And when I went to Nashville, um, we, we went to dinner for Kristen's birthday and Groot came. And Groot, Delta packed Groot's dinner and brought it to the restaurant. And it was in like, you know, a little lunchbox.

• 1:54:04Dax Shepard?

  Yep.

• 1:54:05Speaker 01

  And, um, I, as the aunt, got to hold Groot for a lot of the dinner.

• 1:54:11Dax Shepard?

  Yep.

• 1:54:11Speaker 01

  And I was sort of in charge of feeding Groot his dinner.

• 1:54:15Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:54:16Speaker 01

  Which had like cantaloupe and some, you know, like crunchies.

• 1:54:21Dax Shepard?

  She's a great mom. There's always going to be a protein, a vegetable and a fruit.

• 1:54:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, there's healthy foods in there. And, um, I did have to look at Kristen and say like,

• 1:54:30Dax Shepard?

  Are you supposed to make?

• 1:54:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, are you supposed to eat, eat some of this so it looks like, you know?

• 1:54:35Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:54:35Speaker 01

  You know how the rest of the sentence is.

• 1:54:37Dax Shepard?

  I know. I don't even want to say it out loud.

• 1:54:38Speaker 01

  I know me either.

• 1:54:39Dax Shepard?

  Me either. Yeah, but I know what you're struggling with, because I've been in this situation a few times.

• 1:54:42Speaker 01

  Yeah. And then I didn't get a clear answer and I didn't know what to do.

• 1:54:46Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, I don't know that anyone knows really, but I have found that she's not making it this, oh God, I don't even want to say this.

• 1:54:54Speaker 01

  I know, but we have to.

• 1:54:55Dax Shepard?

  I know, but it's fine if it's just there, is what.

• 1:54:58Speaker 01

  Okay, yeah. Um, because what I.

• 1:55:00Dax Shepard?

  He eats it. You might not notice how much has gone away, but he just, he eats it on his own time and.

• 1:55:05Speaker 01

  Yeah. I put it, I put some to his mouth and I assume he ate what he wanted to eat of what I put to his mouth.

• 1:55:12Dax Shepard?

  And I don't want to trigger any food scares people around the world, like.

• 1:55:19Dax Shepard?

  You know, I do think if you're in a, in a food scarce region, you find out how much food that dogs in America eat and that like people have it delivered and it's freshly cooked and all that, that maybe it's a little, you know, and I just know this could potentially fall into a similar category, but it's a very, he's not, he doesn't have a huge appetite.

• 1:55:35Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, trees, you know, it's, it's only the half that's a boy that needs a little bit of food.

• 1:55:40Dax Shepard?

  A little sustenance.

• 1:55:41Speaker 01

  Yeah. So then I put the food away in my purse when dinnertime was over.

• 1:55:47Dax Shepard?

  Oh, you did?

• 1:55:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:55:48Dax Shepard?

  Okay. With the lid on?

• 1:55:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, with the lid on.

• 1:55:50Dax Shepard?

  Oh, he didn't dump?

• 1:55:53Speaker 01

  I gotta get this out of here. And I just dumped it in my purse. No, I put the lid on. I put it in, in my purse. And this is very me. Like, four days later, I realize I have not taken that food out and it's fresh food.

• 1:56:09Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:56:09Speaker 01

  So it wasn't, it didn't smell good.

• 1:56:11Dax Shepard?

  Immediate follow-up question would have been, so if I was in that situation, I'm like, oh, fuck, I left that in there. It's sealed. But then I would go like, I bet it smells so gross. And then I'd have to smell it to see if I was right.

• 1:56:25Speaker 01

  Oh, you could smell it?

• 1:56:26Dax Shepard?

  You could smell it through the seal.

• 1:56:28Speaker 01

  Like, well, no, when I, when I-

• 1:56:29Dax Shepard?

  Was it proper Tupperware or something?

• 1:56:30Speaker 01

  It was Tupperware. But when I opened it to throw it away eventually.

• 1:56:34Dax Shepard?

  It hit you.

• 1:56:34Speaker 01

  I was like, yeah, this stinks and this is-

• 1:56:38Dax Shepard?

  Were you already home or this is still back in Nashville?

• 1:56:40Speaker 01

  No, it was, it was like right- The day I left.

• 1:56:42Dax Shepard?

  Security.

• 1:56:43Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:56:43Dax Shepard?

  That'd been great if they pulled it out in the TSA line and they opened it and they were like, hey, what a weird meal you've packed for yourself. Also, you have-

• 1:56:50Speaker 01

  It's rotten.

• 1:56:50Dax Shepard?

  You have an eating disorder. That's not a food for a human. And, and you like it rotten? And then you'd have to go-

• 1:56:56Speaker 01

  It's one of my kinks.

• 1:56:57Dax Shepard?

  I'm so sorry. This is where my friend Groot. And then they would have been like, okay, and Anna, she's nuts on top of everything.

• 1:57:03Speaker 01

  Especially if I started explaining, it's my friend Groot. He's half tree and half boy. So- It doesn't look like it's enough food for a human boy, but he's not a human boy. He's half human and half tree. Do you understand?

• 1:57:16Dax Shepard?

  Yes, ma'am. I think you might be more comfortable on a train or a Greyhound to go to your destination. Well, I think no, we'd be much more comfortable if you were via train or.

• 1:57:24Speaker 01

  Okay, well, fuck you because I spent $3,000 on this plane.

• 1:57:28Dax Shepard?

  Oh, you're rich. No wonder you have a half boy, half.

• 1:57:32Speaker 01

  No wonder your brain is disintegrated. You're not grounded to the earth. Anyway, Groot looks so happy in his hat and he's happy with his granddad.

• 1:57:44Dax Shepard?

  He started school. He said, you know, because everyone's gone back to school.

• 1:57:48Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:57:49Dax Shepard?

  As of this week, he's in school. And I said, what grade? And she said, they don't really do it.

• 1:57:55Speaker 01

  That way.

• 1:57:55Dax Shepard?

  That way there.

• 1:57:56Speaker 01

  Okay. And where is there?

• 1:57:57Dax Shepard?

  Sat his school.

• 1:57:59Speaker 01

  In the bedroom?

• 1:58:00Dax Shepard?

  No, he goes away during the day to school. And the school.

• 1:58:08Dax Shepard?

  I don't know. He, what I'm telling you is he goes to school and there's no grades. And it is for folks with different.

• 1:58:16Speaker 01

  Oh, learning needs.

• 1:58:18Dax Shepard?

  There we go.

• 1:58:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:58:19Dax Shepard?

  Or physical needs, I guess. He's what he's got. So yeah, he's in a great school though, that he loves, that doesn't have grades.

• 1:58:25Speaker 01

  Great.

• 1:58:26Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. Cause every time his age comes up, I get in a little bit of a circle because he ages differently and stuff. So I, I, it's hard for me to nail down exactly how old my grandson is.

• 1:58:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:58:36Dax Shepard?

  Which I guess is none of my business.

• 1:58:37Speaker 01

  None of your business.

• 1:58:38Dax Shepard?

  Take it for what it is.

• 1:58:39Speaker 01

  Number.

• 1:58:39Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:58:40Speaker 01

  Um, do you think that he is playing hooky right now, Ben? Why'd you just?

• 1:58:47Dax Shepard?

  That went wrong. Let's try it again.

• 1:58:50Speaker 01

  Don't try it again.

• 1:58:52Dax Shepard?

  Fudge. I will get disturbed. You get three strikes.

• 1:58:56Speaker 01

  Okay, sure. You get to.

• 1:58:56Dax Shepard?

  I gotta make myself a little more physical.

• 1:58:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:58:58Dax Shepard?

  There we go.

• 1:58:59Speaker 01

  Oh, great.

• 1:59:00Dax Shepard?

  Thank goodness.

• 1:59:01Speaker 01

  Really good job. For the listener, there was a.

• 1:59:05Dax Shepard?

  Two attempts.

• 1:59:06Speaker 01

  Of a mint to catch in, in the mouth.

• 1:59:08Dax Shepard?

  To wow Monica.

• 1:59:09Speaker 01

  Yeah. And the first one resulted in a head hit.

• 1:59:12Dax Shepard?

  Reverse headbutt. Not a reverse back, a reverse headbutt. I would never reverse back with my grandson on my lap.

• 1:59:18Speaker 01

  No, that would be really inappropriate. Now, so is Groot like playing hooky today?

• 1:59:23Dax Shepard?

  No, he's out of school. It's, he gets out at this time.

• 1:59:27Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:59:28Dax Shepard?

  Enough about school. Um, it's like where the food.

• 1:59:30Speaker 01

  I know, but like, look, people have these questions.

• 1:59:32Dax Shepard?

  I know, and they're best not asked. Put it on the shelf. Is that what the saying is?

• 1:59:35Speaker 01

  That is not how you feel about life.

• 1:59:38Dax Shepard?

  Any other thing.

• 1:59:39Speaker 01

  Someone who says, don't ask questions.

• 1:59:41Dax Shepard?

  Unless it's for my kids, and then I do everything.

• 1:59:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, I don't love that. There's a lot of hypocrisy there. I kind of want to wear his crown, but I know it'll stretch. But my head is small.

• 1:59:51Dax Shepard?

  It is. It might fit you.

• 1:59:52Speaker 01

  Um, maybe I could just do it like that.

• 1:59:54Dax Shepard?

  Great.

• 1:59:55Speaker 01

  Thanks.

• 1:59:56Dax Shepard?

  That looks really good. It brings out the brown in your eyes.

• 2:00:00Speaker 01

  The blue crown does. Um, it is almost my birthday, speaking of age is just a number, and crowns.

• 2:00:06Dax Shepard?

  You might need a crown.

• 2:00:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, I might need a crown, birthday crown. Um, I'm getting excited for my birthday. Birthdays are tricky because I really get anxious about planning something.

• 2:00:21Dax Shepard?

  But you do like a party.

• 2:00:23Speaker 01

  I like the day feeling fun.

• 2:00:26Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:00:27Speaker 01

  It doesn't necessarily have to be a party, but I just want my day to be, I want it to be a good day. And sometimes that's lower key than others, but.

• 2:00:36Dax Shepard?

  You're planning a pool party at a hotel.

• 2:00:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, the Four Seasons, I can say that.

• 2:00:40Dax Shepard?

  Oh, you can.

• 2:00:41Speaker 01

  It will be done by then. My party will be over. Molly did it for her birthday.

• 2:00:45Dax Shepard?

  Oh.

• 2:00:46Speaker 01

  Um, some years ago, and it was such a fun time.

• 2:00:49Dax Shepard?

  Yes.

• 2:00:49Speaker 01

  They got a cabana and they just had people come by and people hung out at the pool.

• 2:00:55Dax Shepard?

  Ordered some snacks.

• 2:00:57Speaker 01

  Played games, ordered snacks. So that's what we're gonna do.

• 2:00:59Dax Shepard?

  Just to reference a previous episode, this is where Shaq used to come and eat.

• 2:01:03Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 2:01:03Dax Shepard?

  That a man of scalco would wait on him and get that great tip.

• 2:01:07Speaker 01

  Yep, exactly.

• 2:01:08Dax Shepard?

  And you would eat that unconventional breakfast.

• 2:01:09Speaker 01

  Fruit plate.

• 2:01:10Dax Shepard?

  Fruit plate. Unexpected.

• 2:01:12Speaker 01

  Maybe we should get one in his honor for my birthday. Are you coming?

• 2:01:16Dax Shepard?

  Yes, I have, well, unfortunately, we also have the back to school barbecue that day.

• 2:01:20Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:01:21Dax Shepard?

  So I, we will have to come on the beginning of it.

• 2:01:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, great.

• 2:01:25Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah. I wish it were not the case that these two things overlapped.

• 2:01:29Speaker 01

  That's okay. It's no pressure. This is part of the anxiety. Um, I don't.

• 2:01:33Dax Shepard?

  This is what prevents me from having a party, this little element right here.

• 2:01:37Speaker 01

  Yes, I, I don't like the idea of people feeling pressure, but I also do want people there.

• 2:01:42Dax Shepard?

  Yes.

• 2:01:43Speaker 01

  And I want it to be low key, but I also want it to be festive.

• 2:01:47Dax Shepard?

  And high key.

• 2:01:47Speaker 01

  Um, I want it to be low key, but very stressful.

• 2:01:51Dax Shepard?

  Do you want to tell people about your shirt today?

• 2:01:58Dax Shepard?

  I was just looking, I was like, it is a really pretty shirt.

• 2:02:01Speaker 01

  Thanks.

• 2:02:02Dax Shepard?

  And then I remembered it was on.

• 2:02:04Speaker 01

  Backwards.

• 2:02:04Dax Shepard?

  Backwards earlier today.

• 2:02:06Speaker 01

  So I'm.

• 2:02:07Dax Shepard?

  And we had a very hot guest.

• 2:02:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, shockingly so.

• 2:02:12Dax Shepard?

  Did you know he was that hot?

• 2:02:13Speaker 01

  I have thought he's attractive when I see him in projects, but in person, there's really a rhythm and an energy and a playfulness and a fun vibe. I really liked him a lot.

• 2:02:25Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 2:02:26Speaker 01

  Anywho, I didn't dress for him. I just dressed because I like to wear cute clothes and I got this new shirt. I ordered it from Moda Operandi and it's blue. It's really cute. It's knit, not unlike Garut's clothes. It's knit.

• 2:02:41Dax Shepard?

  Right.

• 2:02:41Speaker 01

  And it has button, black buttons going down what I thought was the front.

• 2:02:47Dax Shepard?

  I thought it was a button up sweater.

• 2:02:48Speaker 01

  Me too.

• 2:02:49Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 2:02:49Speaker 01

  And I did think, so I put it on and I was like, oh my gosh, I don't remember it having buttons.

• 2:02:55Dax Shepard?

  Ah.

• 2:02:55Speaker 01

  Interesting. Okay.

• 2:02:56Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 2:02:56Speaker 01

  And then I put it on and the neck was really, really high.

• 2:03:00Dax Shepard?

  Ah.

• 2:03:00Speaker 01

  And I thought, huh, that's interesting, but like, that's a look.

• 2:03:05Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 2:03:05Speaker 01

  Like, that's cool.

• 2:03:06Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 2:03:07Speaker 01

  So I wore it. I had a meeting in the morning. I was out and about.

• 2:03:11Dax Shepard?

  I'm gonna launch a crazy theory right now. Are you about to start your period?

• 2:03:15Speaker 01

  Um, I don't think so.

• 2:03:17Dax Shepard?

  Oh, you're pregnant?

• 2:03:19Speaker 01

  I don't think so.

• 2:03:20Dax Shepard?

  Okay. It's not that time.

• 2:03:22Speaker 01

  I don't think it's that time because, I mean, I can tell you.

• 2:03:26Dax Shepard?

  You always know.

• 2:03:27Speaker 01

  I do know.

• 2:03:28Dax Shepard?

  Get your period calendar out.

• 2:03:29Speaker 01

  I write it down.

• 2:03:32Dax Shepard?

  I theorize this because Kristen took Delta to lunch yesterday after her first day of school and she wore her pants backwards.

• 2:03:39Speaker 01

  And she's about to start her period. She did say that. Sorry. I don't know for.

• 2:03:43Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's okay. People know she has a period.

• 2:03:46Speaker 01

  They should assume she has one.

• 2:03:47Dax Shepard?

  She has a period.

• 2:03:48Speaker 01

  Yeah. She's not menopausal yet.

• 2:03:49Dax Shepard?

  No.

• 2:03:50Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 2:03:51Dax Shepard?

  Despite how much you guys want to be.

• 2:03:53Speaker 01

  Okay. I started on Wednesday, the 30th of July. So one, two, huh. Okay.

• 2:04:00Dax Shepard?

  I just ruined your weekend?

• 2:04:04Speaker 01

  Oh my god. If I get it on my birthday, I'll be pissed. Okay, hold on. One, two, no, all, all, all started on around the 27th. But, starting tomorrow-ish, my PMS. So, maybe my PMS has started and maybe that had to do with it.

• 2:04:22Dax Shepard?

  I just think that'd be interesting. You guys usually have your period at the same time.

• 2:04:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:04:26Dax Shepard?

  And if you both are putting your clothes on backwards, I would say that's correlation. Of course, not causation, but we have something to investigate.

• 2:04:32Speaker 01

  Okay, yeah. I just thought it was a cool shirt that I, I don't know. And I was out and about and I wore it. And it did kind of scratch my neck. But I was like, I guess this is the way it's supposed to be.

• 2:04:44Dax Shepard?

  Right.

• 2:04:44Speaker 01

  Then, we're wa- me and you are walking out to the garage. We're like 10 feet away and I feel something on my neck that feels weird. It's the tag. And I was like, the tag is in front?

• 2:04:57Dax Shepard?

  That's a dumb place for the tag.

• 2:04:58Speaker 01

  Why is the tag here? I feel bad because what I did chalk all this up to is that this brand, I think, is Japanese.

• 2:05:05Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 2:05:06Speaker 01

  So I was like, oh, the Japanese are doing a high neck. The Japanese are putting all these buttons.

• 2:05:11Dax Shepard?

  Okay, now listen, I'm gonna, I hate to bring this out of the vault. You shouldn't keep things in the vault. It's not healthy for a friendship. But I will say.

• 2:05:18Speaker 01

  You have a vault.

• 2:05:19Dax Shepard?

  When I said that if your dad did something very peculiar, I might assume this is, this might be an Indian thing.

• 2:05:25Speaker 01

  I understand.

• 2:05:26Dax Shepard?

  Okay, so you, I just am relieved that you do it too.

• 2:05:29Speaker 01

  Listen, I understand. I have a lot of clothing that are, is Japanese. I love brands, clothing brands that are Japanese. There's a few I really love. Orly, um, some other ones. Lady White Co.

• 2:05:42Dax Shepard?

  Honda, Toyota.

• 2:05:43Speaker 01

  Yes, actually. Um, Lady White Co., all these, whatever. And they're, the clothes generally are very like minimal. They fit really well. They're beautifully constructed.

• 2:05:54Dax Shepard?

  Now, I'm gonna say something very dangerous.

• 2:05:57Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 2:05:57Dax Shepard?

  I'm a little shocked that the clothes from Japan are fitting you perfectly.

• 2:06:01Speaker 01

  You're shocked?

• 2:06:02Dax Shepard?

  Given that you have an ample bosom.

• 2:06:05Speaker 01

  Bosom.

• 2:06:05Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 2:06:05Speaker 01

  Okay, so that's interesting because...

• 2:06:08Dax Shepard?

  Like, I'd be shocked if the Japanese clothes fit me perfectly because I'm much taller than the mean average in Japan.

• 2:06:13Speaker 01

  Yeah. I don't know, they're, it's working out though.

• 2:06:16Dax Shepard?

  They fit perfect, okay.

• 2:06:17Speaker 01

  And I went into a store in New York and it was a Japanese clothing store. I, I tried on these pants and the man who worked there was like...

• 2:06:29Speaker 01

  You have to buy those pants. Like, you are the person that's supposed to wear these clothes.

• 2:06:33Dax Shepard?

  Right.

• 2:06:34Speaker 01

  Cause I'm petite and...

• 2:06:36Dax Shepard?

  Yes, well, that's, a lot of it makes a lot of sense.

• 2:06:38Speaker 01

  The pants make sense.

• 2:06:40Dax Shepard?

  And the shoulders and the length of the waist.

• 2:06:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:06:44Dax Shepard?

  All the different measurements.

• 2:06:45Speaker 01

  But you're just like surprised they're not, it's not super tight.

• 2:06:47Dax Shepard?

  I'm shocked that you don't run into issues.

• 2:06:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:06:50Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 2:06:51Speaker 01

  Well, so far, so good.

• 2:06:53Dax Shepard?

  So far, so good.

• 2:06:54Speaker 01

  Anywho.

• 2:06:54Dax Shepard?

  I don't know, I'm looking directly at your eyes for the listener, but Rob told me that you were...

• 2:06:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, he's always looking.

• 2:06:59Dax Shepard?

  He's, yeah.

• 2:07:00Speaker 01

  He's superb.

• 2:07:03Dax Shepard?

  He's not even here. Rob, are you here? I'm here. Well.

• 2:07:05Speaker 01

  I wonder if the hot guest looked, probably. I hope so. I want people to admire them.

• 2:07:11Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, great. And he's, I don't want to give up, this would give too much away, but he's been married for 34 years.

• 2:07:17Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 2:07:17Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. That's about as much as he gets.

• 2:07:19Speaker 01

  I'm giving a gift. Very generous. Anywho, um, I do have great boobs. I'm just gonna say that.

• 2:07:25Dax Shepard?

  Well, you have artwork that says it.

• 2:07:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:07:28Dax Shepard?

  My wife commissioned some for you, yeah.

• 2:07:30Speaker 01

  So, anywho, I chalked, I did chalk it up to like, oh, this is a really cool piece of clothing because it's Japanese and they make amazing clothes. So...

• 2:07:42Dax Shepard?

  But they put their tags right in the front on your neck.

• 2:07:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, I was like, oh, maybe. And then as soon as it was all falling into place and I was like, oh my God, it's on backwards. So I had to quickly change it.

• 2:07:53Dax Shepard?

  Okay, I have a couple of updates. Quick housekeeping.

• 2:07:56Speaker 01

  Great.

• 2:07:57Dax Shepard?

  So my post about Luke Combs.

• 2:07:59Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:08:00Dax Shepard?

  I said within the post, he's gonna join the ranks of Nicholas Holt, the young man I tried to have relationships that won't text me back.

• 2:08:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:08:08Dax Shepard?

  I had forgotten, I guess he even brought up in the fact check last time though, that I was waiting for him to text me and he never did. Do you remember that?

• 2:08:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:08:15Dax Shepard?

  I guess that was in there because I saw it in the comments. I don't remember saying that part.

• 2:08:18Speaker 01

  I think you did, yeah.

• 2:08:19Dax Shepard?

  Point is, is I, that was my post and I went to DMs and there was a DM from him. He's like, dude, and it was a screen grab. He's like, I sent you this and I never heard anything back. So he sent me right away when he left. He's like, oh, this is so fun, you know, totally, you know, in opening the door to be buddies. And it was in green, the bubble. I'm like, yeah, I never got that. It's in green.

• 2:08:43Speaker 01

  Was it a text or a DM?

• 2:08:45Dax Shepard?

  In the DM on Instagram, he sent a screen grab of the text he had sent me.

• 2:08:50Speaker 01

  Oh, weird.

• 2:08:50Dax Shepard?

  But it was in green.

• 2:08:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:08:53Dax Shepard?

  So it never got to me. So he tried to clear the thing. He tried. So then we had a lovely flurry of texts yesterday.

• 2:08:59Speaker 01

  Okay. Well, can he post?

• 2:09:01Dax Shepard?

  Well, I don't know. I don't know.

• 2:09:03Speaker 01

  I would like that. You know, that's helpful. This is a business.

• 2:09:09Speaker 03

  Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert if you dare.

• 2:09:15Dax Shepard?

  We get support from ZipRecruiter. Oh, get recruiting. So I went down this rabbit hole the other day on real holiday jobs that exist and I couldn't stop. Somebody out there is hiring a ham glazer, a professional ham glazer. Another place is hiring a lead elf, implying a whole hierarchy of elves I had never even considered. Here's the thing, these jobs need real skills. People like that are hard to find. Whether you're hiring for one of these roles or any other role, the best way to find qualified people who are genuinely excited about your role is on ZipRecruiter. And right now you can try it for free at ziprecruiter.com/dax. Plus ZipRecruiter has a new feature that

• 2:09:57Dax Shepard?

  shows you the most interested qualified candidates first, so you meet the right people faster. No wonder ZipRecruiter is the number one rated hiring site based on G2. Let ZipRecruiter find the right people for your roles, seasonal or otherwise. Try it for free today at ziprecruiter.com/dax. That's ziprecruiter.com/dax. Meet your match on ZipRecruiter.

• 2:10:29Speaker 01

  So I've been thinking a lot about the biz.

• 2:10:31Dax Shepard?

  Okay, tell me about your thoughts on the business.

• 2:10:33Speaker 01

  Um.

• 2:10:34Dax Shepard?

  Tell me your business thoughts.

• 2:10:35Speaker 01

  Maybe this is because I'm about to start my period. Let's say this is why.

• 2:10:41Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, you're closing around backwards. You're having business thoughts.

• 2:10:43Speaker 01

  I'd have a lot of peace if I knew there was a reason for this. I find myself generally, not to brag, but I find myself pretty at peace with things. Like, I don't think...

• 2:10:58Speaker 01

  I'm very jealous. I'm happy. Like, I am very happy with my life and my day to day and everything. So I don't have a lot of jealousy because I'm privileged not to have to. I'm really lucky. Yeah. But I've had a few moments of jealousy lately.

• 2:11:17Dax Shepard?

  I think I know where this is going.

• 2:11:19Speaker 01

  Very interesting. I got a lot of DMs and messages, of course, last week or two weeks ago, whenever that when Taylor was going on Travis's podcast, New Heights.

• 2:11:31Dax Shepard?

  Yes.

• 2:11:32Speaker 01

  Huge podcast.

• 2:11:33Dax Shepard?

  Yes.

• 2:11:34Speaker 01

  Um, duh, duh, she is going on that show. She 100% should go on that show. That's her boyfriend's podcast.

• 2:11:41Dax Shepard?

  Of course.

• 2:11:42Speaker 01

  And that's lovely. Like, it's all good and reasonable.

• 2:11:46Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 2:11:47Speaker 01

  And yet, when I heard it, I did get so...

• 2:11:54Dax Shepard?

  Jealous?

• 2:11:55Speaker 01

  Jealous is the honest word.

• 2:11:57Dax Shepard?

  Right.

• 2:11:58Speaker 01

  Because really, I was like, no, like, she needs to come on this show. This show is going to,

• 2:12:09Speaker 01

  like, you know, we're gonna have a real conversation with her, talk about things that are deep, but that maybe she doesn't always have the opportunity to talk about and show some sides of her that people don't see. What I'm also, when I'm doing all this, I am aware that that's, she doesn't want that.

• 2:12:28Dax Shepard?

  Exactly.

• 2:12:29Speaker 01

  And why should she?

• 2:12:29Dax Shepard?

  She's not incentivized to, she doesn't want to.

• 2:12:31Speaker 01

  She...

• 2:12:32Dax Shepard?

  And everyone is delighted with it.

• 2:12:35Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:12:36Dax Shepard?

  Also, who knows what anyone wants to hear? Because they're super pumped to just hear whatever those two, I think they're most excited to just see how they interact.

• 2:12:46Speaker 01

  Exactly, which is so fun.

• 2:12:47Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 2:12:48Speaker 01

  And which I wasn't like, no, don't go on his. I was like, can you also please come on ours? Those are going to be very different conversations.

• 2:12:56Dax Shepard?

  That's right.

• 2:12:57Speaker 01

  And, but then I was like, well, yeah, no, of course not. Like, she's gonna go on his show and they're gonna, like, when we have Kristen on, like, we're not gonna put her in a weird position. She's the safest she'll be here.

• 2:13:09Dax Shepard?

  We've talked about a lot of stuff that she's never gonna talk about somewhere else.

• 2:13:12Speaker 01

  Because she's safe.

• 2:13:14Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:13:14Speaker 01

  Like, she knows if she says, like, guys, we're not doing that. Then we'll just be like, yeah, obviously. Like, it's just, it's obviously a much different situation when it's us two and her.

• 2:13:25Dax Shepard?

  Yes.

• 2:13:25Speaker 01

  Her best friend and her husband.

• 2:13:27Dax Shepard?

  Yes.

• 2:13:27Speaker 01

  And so obviously, for Taylor, same situation. She's with her brother-in-law and her

• 2:13:33Dax Shepard?

  Yes.

• 2:13:35Speaker 01

  You know, boyfriend. And she's gonna be able to dictate that conversation, which I, great. So I got upset, but then I was like, I mean, duh, like, she's gonna go on that show. That's fun. And like, she gets to, great.

• 2:13:50Speaker 01

  Then I had a, there was a moment where I thought she was going on somebody else's show.

• 2:13:56Dax Shepard?

  Right.

• 2:13:56Speaker 01

  Too.

• 2:13:57Dax Shepard?

  Yes, also.

• 2:13:58Speaker 01

  And I got, like, enraged.

• 2:14:01Dax Shepard?

  Right, you had a little moment.

• 2:14:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:14:03Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:14:04Speaker 01

  And I'm not proud of the thoughts I had about it.

• 2:14:08Dax Shepard?

  Sure.

• 2:14:08Speaker 01

  Not about, not about Taylor, but about the other podcast.

• 2:14:12Dax Shepard?

  Yep.

• 2:14:13Speaker 01

  That I thought she was going on.

• 2:14:14Dax Shepard?

  Yep.

• 2:14:14Speaker 01

  And I was like, how could Tree let her do that? That is so crazy.

• 2:14:23Dax Shepard?

  This is a mistake.

• 2:14:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, this is a mistake. Why does this person get this credit? Like, a lot was happening.

• 2:14:30Dax Shepard?

  Right.

• 2:14:31Speaker 01

  And then I had to walk myself back and say, what's going on? You don't normally feel this way.

• 2:14:36Dax Shepard?

  Your heart rate dropped.

• 2:14:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:14:37Dax Shepard?

  Your frontal lobe came online.

• 2:14:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:14:39Dax Shepard?

  Then you did some self-reflection and exploration.

• 2:14:42Speaker 01

  I did. And it was interesting, though, because, and I talked about this on an interview recently. I said, and I think this is true, that we, me and you here, have a very specific thing going on, which is that there's a man and a woman

• 2:15:01Dax Shepard?

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:15:02Speaker 01

  anchoring the whole thing.

• 2:15:03Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 2:15:04Speaker 01

  That is not true for

• 2:15:07Speaker 01

  In my opinion, any of the podcasts in our

• 2:15:11Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 2:15:11Speaker 01

  realm.

• 2:15:12Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, I, I think.

• 2:15:14Speaker 01

  I think that's right.

• 2:15:15Dax Shepard?

  I think we're the only ones, yeah.

• 2:15:16Speaker 01

  I mean, somebody's gonna comment that I'm wrong and that's

• 2:15:18Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:15:19Speaker 01

  probably great.

• 2:15:19Dax Shepard?

  We could be wrong. I mean, if we're wrong, we're not meaning to be.

• 2:15:21Speaker 01

  No, no, I don't mean to be. We have shows where there's a female host and male hosts and combinations of those, I mean, multiple female hosts, multiple male hosts, whatever.

• 2:15:31Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 2:15:31Speaker 01

  But I, I do think we're significantly different in that it's both of us here offering two types of opinions and thoughts and things that I'm proud of. I'm proud that we have that.

• 2:15:44Dax Shepard?

  Me too.

• 2:15:45Speaker 01

  And so, you know, in my head, I'm like, I will, again, this is like jealousy. I, it bums me out when we don't get that recognition. When it's like, this is another male podcast or a male hosted podcast, which, you know, whatever.

• 2:16:05Dax Shepard?

  Well, you're feeling like we're falling in between?

• 2:16:07Speaker 01

  No, I like that we're in between.

• 2:16:10Dax Shepard?

  But I'm just, when you're, are you feeling like when a potential guest is evaluating that they're gonna pick either they wanna go the male demo or they wanna go the female demo?

• 2:16:18Speaker 01

  I do.

• 2:16:19Dax Shepard?

  And that we're a tweener?

• 2:16:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, like, I think there's like some smart PR moves to go into one of those two directions. So people are going on other shows. Every time it happens, it is a little like, ee, like, I don't, that sucks.

• 2:16:34Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:16:35Speaker 01

  But I guess I'm also saying, I'm, I was sort of sitting with this, like, there's these categories of male podcasters and female podcasters.

• 2:16:44Dax Shepard?

  Uh huh.

• 2:16:44Speaker 01

  And I think I, I'm not even gonna talk about the show.

• 2:16:48Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 2:16:49Speaker 01

  Fall through the cracks there. When they're pitting, like, the female podcasters against the male podcasters, we're in that category.

• 2:16:58Dax Shepard?

  Which one?

• 2:16:59Speaker 01

  The male podcasters.

• 2:17:01Dax Shepard?

  Oh, I don't think so.

• 2:17:01Speaker 01

  Well, I'm gonna, I don't wanna like be rude, but yes, like on Alex's documentary, when she's talking about all these male podcasts, you're mentioned.

• 2:17:11Dax Shepard?

  But let's be ultra clear. I'm mentioned as someone who has an epic deal at that time. I'm not, we're never mentioned in the manosphere. We're never mentioned in like male podcasts. We're not, that, it doesn't ever happen.

• 2:17:24Speaker 01

  But I'm not mentioned there.

• 2:17:26Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, that wouldn't have made the point they were making. Like again, that's taking it quite personally.

• 2:17:32Speaker 01

  Of course I'm gonna take, that's my whole point. Like, of course I'm gonna take it personally.

• 2:17:36Dax Shepard?

  Sure.

• 2:17:36Speaker 01

  When in order for this narrative to be there, some female podcasters that are huge and saying, "Look how big they are in comparison to these male podcasts." I'm dropped from the narrative and that doesn't feel good.

• 2:17:52Dax Shepard?

  Right.

• 2:17:53Speaker 01

  So, you know, anyway, I'm just bal- I was balancing a lot of those feelings.

• 2:18:00Speaker 01

  And I guess ultimately, I was kinda like, "At the end of the day, this is the job I want. This is the podcast I wanna be on."

• 2:18:12Dax Shepard?

  Yep.

• 2:18:12Speaker 01

  These are the types of conversations I wanna have, so here we are. Like, this is what it is. It's just, I mean, I know it might, maybe people don't like us talking about this, but I, if I was listening, I'd wanna hear the way

• 2:18:27Dax Shepard?

  We're digesting all these.

• 2:18:29Speaker 01

  about the insanely tricky landscape of podcasting. Like, we've been doing this for seven years. A lot's changed. Seven and a half. Like, almost eight years. That's a long time and a lot has changed and we've-

• 2:18:44Dax Shepard?

  And ours has grown too. That's the, that's the amazing thing. That's also a huge gift to be grateful for. It's like, ours has just grown. It's not, it's not smaller than it was five years ago when we had access.

• 2:18:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:18:54Dax Shepard?

  It's just that some shows have gotten enormous.

• 2:18:56Speaker 01

  Yeah. And yeah, I just think it's an interesting time for everyone. I wanna give one compliment.

• 2:19:02Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, okay.

• 2:19:03Speaker 01

  Okay, to you. So, in talking about this, like, a podcast that's hosted with a man and a woman, that was a decision on your part. Like, for some, maybe some of the other ones that have that, like, it was two probably equally established people coming together.

• 2:19:23Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 2:19:23Speaker 01

  That was not the show. You were established and you decided that-

• 2:19:28Dax Shepard?

  I like you.

• 2:19:28Speaker 01

  I would, I could add something potentially.

• 2:19:31Dax Shepard?

  A great, great counterpart to-

• 2:19:33Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:19:34Dax Shepard?

  Yes, debate.

• 2:19:35Speaker 01

  That's a feminist move. That's an actually feminist action.

• 2:19:40Dax Shepard?

  Action.

• 2:19:42Speaker 01

  Like, I'm bringing in a woman to be here and contribute a voice. There's all these other people who present themselves as so progressive and feminist, and their actions don't match it.

• 2:20:00Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, sure.

• 2:20:01Speaker 01

  So, I mean, it's the truth. And like, yeah, so I'm, I think because you have tattoos and talk about your motorcycles and fucking and this and that, like, you can be put in a category, but it's really like, all the actions you've made are the most progressive ones.

• 2:20:22Dax Shepard?

  Right now, we're a 50/50 team, aren't we? Yeah, we got you, Emma, Rob and I, and I do like when we go out, that it's equal in that, yeah, I like that. Okay, one last thing, before we do facts.

• 2:20:32Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:20:33Dax Shepard?

  As the Armchairs are so good at doing, they solved my, you remember my issue about 5A, 6A, 7A?

• 2:20:39Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:20:40Dax Shepard?

  Well, first of all, everyone was on your side, so just let's start there. No one could understand my frustration, that it felt very extraneous and didn't signify anything.

• 2:20:48Speaker 01

  You didn't like that?

• 2:20:49Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, if they're all A, why are we including A? Well, there are B and C schools.

• 2:20:54Speaker 01

  Oh, okay, so it is like batteries in the way my friend said.

• 2:20:58Dax Shepard?

  Well, it's more that like, C is some increment, right? It's some multiple.

• 2:21:04Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 2:21:05Dax Shepard?

  So, it's like, a 5C is way less than a 1A. And then a 5B is less than a 1A, but more than, you know what I'm saying? More than a 7C. So, there are A, B and C, which also coordinates with the 1, 2, 3, 4.

• 2:21:20Speaker 01

  Got it.

• 2:21:20Dax Shepard?

  Okay, so I feel much better now that I know there's B and C category.

• 2:21:24Speaker 01

  So happy for you.

• 2:21:25Dax Shepard?

  And thanks to everyone for correcting me.

• 2:21:27Speaker 01

  Did anyone respond that you are supposed to write it with the letters in the amount of numbers?

• 2:21:32Dax Shepard?

  Someone said that's not true, yeah. Actually.

• 2:21:34Speaker 01

  That you don't do that.

• 2:21:35Dax Shepard?

  You do not write 5As. You write the number 5 and then the letter A.

• 2:21:38Speaker 01

  Okay, interesting.

• 2:21:39Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 2:21:40Speaker 01

  Okay, one person.

• 2:21:40Dax Shepard?

  So we both took it on the chin.

• 2:21:41Speaker 01

  Well, one person said it.

• 2:21:42Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 2:21:42Speaker 01

  So.

• 2:21:43Dax Shepard?

  But I think they were probably right. It sounds like they were right.

• 2:21:45Speaker 01

  I'm really not sure. In my head, I, there's like, flags hanging in the gym that had 5As.

• 2:21:53Dax Shepard?

  Oh, really?

• 2:21:54Speaker 01

  I think.

• 2:21:54Dax Shepard?

  Oh, wow.

• 2:21:55Speaker 01

  Anyway.

• 2:21:56Dax Shepard?

  You have to go back to your high school gym.

• 2:21:56Speaker 01

  Now they had to, they would have to add more because it's 7A now.

• 2:21:59Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. Well, and that's an argument for doing it that way because you can always add As without scrapping the original. But if you go from number five to letter A.

• 2:22:09Speaker 01

  New flag.

• 2:22:09Dax Shepard?

  To six, you need a whole new thing.

• 2:22:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's right.

• 2:22:12Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 2:22:13Speaker 01

  Um, all right, let's do some facts.

• 2:22:16Dax Shepard?

  I'm gonna steal a bite of something while you read the first fact.

• 2:22:20Speaker 01

  Oh, let's just wait. Why don't you just eat your food?

• 2:22:22Dax Shepard?

  No.

• 2:22:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:22:24Dax Shepard?

  I didn't take a bite.

• 2:22:26Speaker 01

  You, you took so much.

• 2:22:28Dax Shepard?

  No, says who?

• 2:22:29Speaker 01

  Eat your food.

• 2:22:30Dax Shepard?

  I don't have any food.

• 2:22:31Speaker 01

  Oh, my God.

• 2:22:32Dax Shepard?

  I'm wrongly accused. Why are you trying to Amanda Knox me?

• 2:22:37Speaker 01

  Don't do that when you are actually guilty. That's not fair.

• 2:22:41Dax Shepard?

  Had a sense of humor about her situation.

• 2:22:43Speaker 01

  But she wasn't guilty.

• 2:22:45Dax Shepard?

  Okay, I finished.

• 2:22:47Speaker 01

  No, you didn't.

• 2:22:48Dax Shepard?

  I did. All done.

• 2:22:50Speaker 01

  Eat your food.

• 2:22:51Dax Shepard?

  As you ask your question, I'm gonna swallow really quick. It's gonna be a magic trick. You love magic.

• 2:22:55Speaker 01

  Listen to me. Listen to me.

• 2:22:57Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 2:22:57Speaker 01

  I don't want to pull this card, but I have to edit it and I'm gonna see you chewing and I'm gonna have to say, don't be on Dax while he's chewing and it's a thing and I don't want to do it. So can you just eat it? What kind of bar is it? It looks yummy.

• 2:23:11Dax Shepard?

  It's an almond butter protein ball.

• 2:23:15Speaker 01

  You want more? You can have more.

• 2:23:16Dax Shepard?

  I don't want more, Monica. I had too much.

• 2:23:20Speaker 01

  And so.

• 2:23:20Dax Shepard?

  I feel sick and I might puke.

• 2:23:23Speaker 01

  Oh, my God.

• 2:23:24Dax Shepard?

  Puke.

• 2:23:25Speaker 01

  Okay, facts.

• 2:23:26Dax Shepard?

  Yes.

• 2:23:27Speaker 01

  For Amanda.

• 2:23:27Dax Shepard?

  Well, I just want to say one thing.

• 2:23:29Speaker 01

  Say.

• 2:23:30Dax Shepard?

  We have another Amanda coming up.

• 2:23:32Speaker 01

  This is Amanda Week.

• 2:23:33Dax Shepard?

  It's Amanda Week. Other Amanda has some stories about these punk rockers who used to come into her coffee shop and they were called the Pukes.

• 2:23:43Speaker 01

  Oh, really?

• 2:23:43Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, that's their like gang name.

• 2:23:45Speaker 01

  Oh, my God.

• 2:23:46Dax Shepard?

  They're the Pukes.

• 2:23:47Speaker 01

  Um, okay, now some facts. Obviously, not a lot of facts because very personal story and the facts are known.

• 2:23:57Dax Shepard?

  They're known.

• 2:23:58Speaker 01

  For the most part.

• 2:23:58Dax Shepard?

  They were excruciatingly uncovered.

• 2:24:01Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:24:01Dax Shepard?

  Unearthed over eight years.

• 2:24:04Speaker 01

  What a resilient woman. I wonder if I would just die.

• 2:24:11Speaker 01

  I have no idea how I would handle a situation like that.

• 2:24:14Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, it's almost insulting to like.

• 2:24:16Speaker 01

  Assume anything.

• 2:24:17Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:24:18Speaker 01

  I can't assume anything.

• 2:24:19Dax Shepard?

  Anyone else that's been through something like this. My just, my prediction is like, I just have a terrible temperament for that situation.

• 2:24:26Speaker 01

  I mean, more like you're in prison and you didn't do it. And then, yeah, then you re you're re-entered and everyone thinks you're a monster. People still think you did it, even though you've been exonerated, like fucked up, fucked up.

• 2:24:44Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 2:24:45Speaker 01

  It's funny, I was just watching something recently and there was a joke about her.

• 2:24:50Dax Shepard?

  Oh, there was.

• 2:24:50Speaker 01

  Uh huh.

• 2:24:51Dax Shepard?

  What was the joke? Is that the joke?

• 2:24:53Speaker 01

  It was like, she came up and it was like, did she kill someone?

• 2:24:59Dax Shepard?

  Ah, okay.

• 2:25:01Speaker 01

  And I was like, yeah, I didn't like it.

• 2:25:04Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 2:25:07Speaker 01

  All right.

• 2:25:07Dax Shepard?

  I don't like all the jokes I see on TV.

• 2:25:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:25:10Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. I was watching a, I watched a pilot of a show yesterday with Delta, half of it. Yeah, and there was like, three or four, kind of over the top, making fun of real life.

• 2:25:22Speaker 01

  People.

• 2:25:22Dax Shepard?

  Actors and stuff. And I was like, yeah, I never love it. I never love it.

• 2:25:25Speaker 01

  I don't like it either. I also finished Beast Games. That's, we'll save that for next fact check.

• 2:25:33Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 2:25:34Speaker 01

  Okay, Halloween in Italy. In Italy, Halloween is a blend of American-style celebrations and traditional Italian holidays focused on the dead. Halloween is not a traditional Italian holiday, but it has become increasingly popular, especially among younger generations with influences from the US. Children, children may trick or treat at bars and restaurants, often in the town center, rather than going door to door, as in the US, and tend to dress up in scarier costumes, like zombies and witches, while adults often don't participate in costume wearing.

• 2:26:03Dax Shepard?

  Of course, people, who wouldn't want to participate in Halloween? If you see it in a movie and you're in Italy, like, hell, yeah, go door to door and get candy, free candy? I mean, it's a very easily sold holiday to somebody.

• 2:26:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, definitely.

• 2:26:15Dax Shepard?

  Like, hey, do you like candy? That's the first question. So you're, ciao, ciabalo.

• 2:26:20Speaker 01

  I'm not doing that.

• 2:26:21Dax Shepard?

  Oh, you gotta say.

• 2:26:22Speaker 01

  Can I say it in English?

• 2:26:23Dax Shepard?

  You say ciao.

• 2:26:24Speaker 01

  Hi.

• 2:26:25Dax Shepard?

  Oh. Well, I guess you shall be the Italian.

• 2:26:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly.

• 2:26:30Dax Shepard?

  Eh, pronto.

• 2:26:32Speaker 01

  Hi, do you like candy?

• 2:26:33Dax Shepard?

  I love a candy.

• 2:26:35Speaker 01

  Have you heard of?

• 2:26:35Dax Shepard?

  Do you have a candy?

• 2:26:36Speaker 01

  Um, yes.

• 2:26:38Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 2:26:38Speaker 01

  But you have to come to my door and you have to say trick or treat and you have to wear a costume and I'll give it to you.

• 2:26:43Dax Shepard?

  Oh, I love it. See how easy that pitch was?

• 2:26:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was really easy. It was really, really easy. Um, okay, okay, the interview rights versus interrogation rights. So in, so police interviews, I mean, she went through this, but still. Purpose: to gather information and investigate potential criminal activity. Nature: typically non accusatory and conversational. Location: can occur anywhere, including on the street or at the individual's homes. Miranda rights: generally, Miranda rights are not read during a non custodial interview. Consequences: statements made during an interview even without Miranda warnings can be used as evidence in court if the individual is not in custody. That, like, how is that legal?

• 2:27:26Dax Shepard?

  I don't get it.

• 2:27:27Speaker 01

  That's the whole point of Miranda rights.

• 2:27:28Dax Shepard?

  Yes, yeah, yeah.

• 2:27:31Speaker 01

  I'm stressed out.

• 2:27:32Dax Shepard?

  Now, look, okay, I'm gonna, I have to make a good faith argument.

• 2:27:38Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 2:27:39Dax Shepard?

  Which is detectives in a murder trial have to talk to like 50 people, right? They gotta, they gotta go talk to coworkers and all these different people. And to have a lawyer present at every one of those, obviously, would be a big logistical challenge. If every single person, the coworker, hey, did you guys ever get lunch together? That whole thing. If they've got to have lawyers present for all these kind of mundane. Now, what I think is clearly happens is they abuse this. But in concept, I understand, they gotta talk to a ton of people and it should be really surface. And then if five of those people seem like further questioning is wanted.

• 2:28:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, then you bring them in.

• 2:28:23Dax Shepard?

  Then bring them in, read them their rights.

• 2:28:24Speaker 01

  You shouldn't be able to, even in that, we're trying to figure out who to bring in, quote, interview, you shouldn't be able to use any of that in court.

• 2:28:32Dax Shepard?

  I agree, I agree.

• 2:28:33Speaker 01

  Now, police interrogations. Purpose: to obtain a confession or incriminating statement from a suspect. Nature: more formal and can involve accusatory questioning, pressure, and psychological manipulation.

• 2:28:46Dax Shepard?

  Why'd you kill her?

• 2:28:47Speaker 01

  Exactly. Location: often occurs in a police station or other controlled. Environment. Miranda Rights: If a person is in custody, detained, and subject to questioning, police are required to read Miranda warnings before any interrogation begins. Consequences: If Miranda Rights are not read during a custodial interrogation, any statements made by the suspect may be inadmissible in court.

• 2:29:10Dax Shepard?

  Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

• 2:29:12Speaker 01

  So it is a workaround. It is a workaround they're trying to do.

• 2:29:15Dax Shepard?

  It's abused.

• 2:29:16Speaker 01

  Yeah. Okay, why handwriting analysis is unreliable. It lacks scientific validation for assessing personality traits or predicting job performance. Despite its historical use, research consistently shows that graphologists are no more accurate than chance when making such assessments, and their methods are often susceptible to the Barnum effect, where vague statements are interpreted as uniquely relevant. The Barnum effect: A psychological phenomenon where individuals believe that vague and general personality descriptions apply specifically to them, even though those descriptions could apply to a wide range of people.

• 2:29:50Dax Shepard?

  This is my complaint against astrology.

• 2:29:52Speaker 01

  Oh, sure.

• 2:29:53Dax Shepard?

  Which is like, there's only 12 types. And so somehow everyone feels, um, yeah.

• 2:29:59Speaker 01

  That it's specifically them. Yeah, totally. Okay, yeah, it's essentially the tendency to accept generalized statements as uniquely descriptive of oneself. Um, cool. Well, that's it.

• 2:30:10Dax Shepard?

  That's everything.

• 2:30:10Speaker 01

  For the facts. And you are eating again.

• 2:30:12Dax Shepard?

  No, I'm not.

• 2:30:13Speaker 01

  You're gonna continue to lie to my face?

• 2:30:15Dax Shepard?

  Well, I think it's so obvious that I did that it's cute and funny. But I'm wrong in my assessment of how you would take it.

• 2:30:23Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:30:23Dax Shepard?

  I thought you would go, look at this boy. He's eating his cookies again. But you didn't. You're like, you're gonna keep doing this?

• 2:30:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, because I-

• 2:30:30Dax Shepard?

  You're a bad person.

• 2:30:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:30:32Dax Shepard?

  You're a bad father. You killed her.

• 2:30:35Speaker 01

  I told you why I didn't want you to eat it. And then you ate it.

• 2:30:40Dax Shepard?

  But I was quick and no one saw a thing.

• 2:30:44Speaker 01

  Okay, love you. Bye.

• 2:30:46Dax Shepard?

  Love you.

• 2:31:02Dax Shepard?

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