Pod Insights How To Fail With Elizabeth Day ON FRIENDSHIP… With Dawn French and Vogue Williams About this episode I’ve always been obsessed with friendship - how it shapes us, challenges us and often goes uncelebrated. In this episode, both Dawn French and Vogue Williams get honest about the beauty and the messiness of it all.
Despite being surrounded by great friends, Vogue explains why she worries she’s not the best friend back - although she’s definitely working on it. Dawn then reflects on growing up as an RAF kid. Repeated moves meant she learned early on how hard it can be to build and keep connections. She also talks about her iconic friendship with Jennifer Saunders (which did *not* start smoothly) and the people she holds closest today.
My fascination with the subject runs so deep that I even wrote a whole book about it! Friendaholic: Confessions of a Friendship Addict explores why friendship matters and how it evolves over our lives. Feel free to buy a copy for you…and all your friends!
Listen to Dawn French’s full episode of How to Fail here: swap.fm/l/NJDrzxLKhyi6icOrxmHT
Listen to Vogue Williams’ full episode of How to Fail here: swap.fm/l/KdIrVp0y41qgun1oGjfR
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Transcript Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:00 Elizabeth Day? One of the things I hear a lot from listeners is how tiring it can be when your mind just doesn't settle. And I can only imagine this feels even heavier with intrusive thoughts. It's that quiet sense of being worn down by something you never asked for and never wanted, but just can't seem to switch off. If you struggle with this, I want to tell you about NoCD, because it's a resource that genuinely helps people. NoCD provides specialised treatment for OCD. And what I appreciate about their approach is how human it feels. You're matched with a licensed therapist trained in ERP therapy. That's exposure and response prevention. And over time, you learn skills that help your OCD symptoms become manageable, so you can live more of the life you want to live.
0:45 Elizabeth Day? If you're struggling with OCD or unrelenting intrusive thoughts, NoCD can help. Book a free 15-minute call to get started at learn.nocd.com/fail. Confession time. I have a tendency to postpone certain decisions for far longer than is sensible. Not the big life decisions, oddly enough, those I can usually handle. It's the smaller ones that somehow become disproportionately complicated. For me, rugs fall squarely into that category. I've known for a long time that a rug can completely change how a room feels, but I've always found sizing for a space tricky. That's why Ernesta appealed to me.
1:26 Elizabeth Day? Ernesta makes designer-quality rugs, custom-cut to the exact dimensions of your space. So instead of making do with something that's close enough, you're choosing something made specifically for your home. I also love the fact that you can order five oversized 12 by 12 samples for just $10 before committing. And Ernesta's design team will help with sizing completely free of charge. Visit ernestacom and order five samples for only $10 and you'll get $50 towards any rug of your choice. That's ernestacom. Hello and welcome to this week's Throwback How to Fail, where I take a look at two past episodes on an interesting theme. This week, it's one of my past... Final favourites, it's friendship.
2:12 Elizabeth Day? You're going to hear from Vogue Williams, who recently left the jungle on I'm a Celebrity. And before she went on that show, she came on How to Fail and spoke so eloquently about how she feels really lucky to have a lot of great friends. But she doesn't always feel like she's a particularly good friend in return. Still, she is working on it, and that's all we can ask. Meanwhile, Dawn French grew up as an RAF child. So her family moved around a lot, making maintaining friendships quite challenging. She talks openly about her friendship with Jennifer Saunders and how they didn't actually like each other at first. And she discusses her closest friends. First up, it's Vogue.
2:57 Elizabeth Day? Your final failure is friendship failure.
2:59 Speaker 01 Yes.
3:00 Elizabeth Day? Why did you choose this?
3:01 Speaker 01 This is because of you.
3:03 Elizabeth Day? It is.
3:05 Speaker 01 So I read your book. I loved it.
3:07 Elizabeth Day? Thank you.
3:09 Speaker 01 And I think that anyone who has read it, it touches a nerve with everyone because it's like, it makes you just see so much of yourself within what you're saying about your friends. And I really, when I was reading it, I was like, God, I'm so lucky to have so many great friends. But I really feel like I'm not being a good friend to them. And because of you, I just went to a baby share in Leeds last week.
3:32 Elizabeth Day? I'm sorry.
3:33 Speaker 01 Which I would have said no to, but I had, so it's one of my really close friends from home. And, and she's having a baby, she lives in Leeds. And like, I've never made the effort to go and even see her in Leeds. And I'm only in London. And I was like, no, I'm going to do it. Because after reading your book, I was like, I'm being such a bad friend. And I had such a great time and loads of my friends had come over from Dublin. And it was really nice. And now I've said yes to two weddings. You've got me really busy, but I think.
3:57 Elizabeth Day? I'm sorry, but also I'm so proud of you.
4:00 Speaker 01 I know, it's so good to be, because I think that you can really take your friends for granted, especially if they've been your friends for, like, I've got, like, some of my best friends are my friends since I was 12. They're probably my longest friends. And then, like, I'm lucky with Joanne. Joanne and I have been friends since, since I am like 18, I think. And we're, we spend time together because we have our podcast together. So that's how we kind of see each other. But even with the two of us, we're kind of like, right, we need to start like doing fun things together. Can't just be about work. So we were out last night and tonight we're going to Magic Mike.
4:31 Elizabeth Day? Fun.
4:32 Speaker 01 I know, I can't wait. But I think friendships do feel like a failure to me because I haven't put them first. Definitely in the last like six years since I've had kids. I think when I had kids, it was family, work, and then friendships like in and around it sometimes. And now I'm trying to just have better friendships and like look after the friends that I have because they're so important to me. And even like we went on holidays at Easter and we had like one group of friends the first weekend and another group of friends the second weekend. It was it was really nice to just get to spend time with people like that. But it is hard to to find time for friends, but it's so important because they're the ones that they'll be your constant in your life forever if you nurture them. And that was actually taken to your book.
5:16 Elizabeth Day? Oh, thank you so much for saying that. And in a sense, even though I didn't have my own children, that phase of my friends having their children was really challenging for certain friendships, because obviously, your attention is focused in different directions. And life is busy and it can be really hard to carve out a space. But I think with the friendships that I most value, there's that generosity of spirit that I write about in the book, where we're all our default is to think the best of each other. And to acknowledge that we might not see each other as much as we'd like, because there are so many competing factors in our diaries. But when we do see each other, there's no guilt.
5:56 Speaker 01 That's the key.
5:57 Elizabeth Day? Yes.
5:58 Speaker 01 Like, and even with like, when I saw the girls from home at the baby shower, like there was, it was just like, you just pick it up again. And you don't want to have that guilt, because you do feel guilty about it. But then when I was speaking to them, I was like, oh, are you guys always hanging out and stuff? And they were like, no, we never see each other, because life gets in the way. And like, everyone's really busy. But I think it is important. But like, for me as well, it's really important to to to have separate friends to spend on as well. Like, of course, he's friendly with all my friends as well. But like, I like having my own friendship groups where I go off and because he doesn't want to do all the things that I want to do and vice versa.
6:43 Elizabeth Day? But it's even important that you had that conversation with your friends about because you were clearly feeling A guilty but B like you had a fear that they were all carrying on their friendships without you in a way because you hadn't shown up. And actually to have that really honest conversation brings you closer.
6:58 Speaker 01 Yeah.
6:59 Elizabeth Day? Because they're like, oh no, of course we're not hanging out all the time and it's just so lovely to see you. And then that that kind of gives you impetus to keep going then for a few more months.
7:07 Speaker 01 Yeah.
7:07 Elizabeth Day? But what for you is friendship? Like, how would you define it? What for you makes a good friendship?
7:14 Speaker 01 A lot of my friends, like, well, actually, pretty much all of my friends, other than those that I would consider friends with more acquaintances, kind of thing, would feel like family to me. So they really would feel as close as that. And it's friends are people who are just there for you. Like, when you need them, you're there for them. And they have to bring like a joy into your life as well. Like, I've had friends that that I've had to remove from my life and some people that I really like. And I just thought, you're just, you're not bringing what I need into my life. You're just kind of bringing, I just, if you can't trust somebody as well, I think that's, it's really strange when you think that somebody has a different agenda.
7:55 Speaker 01 I'm just really, I'm very considerate of who I want to spend my time with because time is short. Like, you don't have that much free time, particularly when you're working and stuff like that. And I think it's important to spend it with people who just bring you happiness and add to your happiness. And you add to their happiness. It has to be like a two way thing. You can't just be expecting so much of a friend and not giving anything back. But it's something that you should want to give back without even trying.
8:19 Elizabeth Day? How has being famous affected your friendships? Because you are someone who is instantly recognisable visually and through your voice. And also someone who thousands of people want to be friends with. And potentially, myself included.
8:38 Speaker 01 You are my best friend.
8:39 Elizabeth Day? I'm putting myself at the top of that list. But also maybe even think they are friends with you, definitely myself included. Because they, there's an intimacy to podcasting and to reality TV where you constantly show up as yourself. And so is that a struggle sometimes, maintaining boundaries? Because people want to be your friend and you're very, you have to be selective about who is actually allowed in.
9:01 Speaker 01 I think that I'm quite clever about it and I don't think that I've had to to try that hard with it. There's definitely been a couple of people that I've let in where I'm like, I shouldn't have let you in, but I don't hold bad feelings towards those people. It just isn't a friendship that I I would want to continue. But there are people that I would have in my life and you have some in your book as well, that you kind of keep a little bit at arms length, because although you like spending time in their company, they're probably not really great for you as well.
9:27 Elizabeth Day? Yes, but how do you do that? How do you keep them at arms length?
9:30 Speaker 01 I kind of, they're not people, they're people that I'd see at things.
9:33 Elizabeth Day? Okay.
9:33 Speaker 01 So I wouldn't.
9:34 Elizabeth Day? So you wouldn't continue the communication via WhatsApp afterwards or?
9:37 Speaker 01 No, not too much, maybe a tiny bit of communication, but they're, they wouldn't be, I'd see them at events and stuff like that, but they're probably not somebody that I'm gonna go, oh, let's go hang out and let's go have a coffee or let's go for dinner.
9:47 Elizabeth Day? And what about Spencer's attitude to friendship? Is that different from yours?
9:51 Speaker 01 He's like your husband, Justin, where he pretends he has no friends, but he has loads of friends. Spenny will like tell you that I don't care about friends, I don't have any friends. And it's like, Spencer, like you have so many friends and he kind of, he loves new people. So like, he'll have a flavour of them. He can't help himself, but he does have like, he's very close to my brother, Alexander, who lives with us. He loves his company. He loves my cousin Killian. So it's a real problem if Spencer and I ever break up because they're coming with me.
10:20 Elizabeth Day? Do you think your sister Amber is is one of your best friends? Is there a difference between being someone's sibling, being related to them and being a friend?
10:29 Speaker 01 I don't really feel like that. I really feel like she's my best friend, but she's somebody who will get away with whatever she does. She'll always get away with it. Where I think is if you have a friend who really does something that they shouldn't do, you'd probably say, listen, I'm kind of out. Whereas with a sister, they can do whatever they want. But Amber and I have been best friends since we were very small. We've always spent all our time together. We ring each other honestly about four or five times a day. We're always on to each other and she really is a very, she's my best of best friends. Spencer hates me saying that because he's like, I'm your best friend. I'm like, Amber is.
11:04 Elizabeth Day? You mentioned earlier about some friendships that have fallen by the wayside. Have you ever had to end a friendship and have you ever actually addressed that conflict head on?
11:14 Speaker 01 I have had about three friendships that ended. And one was a very longstanding friendship and it just, you know what?
11:25 Speaker 01 Let's, how long would it be now? It's been about five years now, but it was just one of those things. And like, I know that she's happy. I know that I'm happy, but there wasn't like a huge conversation around it. It was kind of like a falling out by the end of it, but I could feel it coming for a while. And so that stopped. And like, you feel kind of sad because you're like, God, we spent so much time together. But like, again, life just goes on. It's, there's no bad feelings, I think on either part for sure now. And then other friendships have ended because like, there was a kind of little trust, trust issue where I'm just like, I don't know about you now. And also, sometimes when people surround themselves with people that aren't good people, you're like, oh, you kind of have to question why that they are, that they want to
12:10 Speaker 01 do that when you know it's not even good for them. So sometimes that happens as well.
12:14 Elizabeth Day? And do you tend to just then drop out of communication?
12:17 Speaker 01 No, I would let them know.
12:19 Elizabeth Day? You'd let them know?
12:20 Speaker 01 Yeah, excuse me, we are not friends anymore.
12:22 Elizabeth Day? No, that's so, that's so admirable.
12:25 Speaker 01 I think, well, it's happened so rarely that like, and there's always been reasons for it happening that it's kind of, you can't really do, I don't understand the ghosting thing. Like that friend in your book who ghosted you, I find that, like, I find it really strange to do something like that to somebody. I think, like, even ghosting when you're, like, I've been ghosted when I was kind of going out with somebody and I was mad about him. And then all of a sudden, it was just like less and less and less. And I think it's the meanest thing to do to somebody. I just think it's like a real cowardly, although people think they're being nice by doing it that way. Whereas I just think, just tell them.
12:59 Elizabeth Day? So you have told someone, I'm sorry, I don't trust you anymore. So I don't feel safe in this friendship. That's actually amazing.
13:06 Speaker 01 Yeah. I mean, there were reasons behind it.
13:08 Elizabeth Day? Face to face?
13:08 Speaker 01 No, it was on the phone.
13:10 Elizabeth Day? Okay.
13:10 Speaker 01 But there are reasons behind it.
13:12 Elizabeth Day? Yes.
13:13 Speaker 01 Yeah.
13:14 Elizabeth Day? I think that's really, sorry, because you're speaking to someone who is historically so conflict avoidant, that that for me is just mind blowing and really admirable. But I think that there's something really important here about clarity being the ultimate act of love and friendship.
13:30 Speaker 01 Yeah.
13:30 Elizabeth Day? In a way. So you're ending the friendship in the most loving way by being. Being clear.
13:35 Speaker 01 Yeah, and and then everyone knows where they stand and like it's I always think no matter what happens, I think it's really sad to to lose a friendship. But I think even with conflict, like, I I don't love conflict. I I I'd be very rational with stuff and like, I I like talking about things. I don't, I I'm not a like Spencer brushes everything under the rug, like, everything. We could have an argument and he's like, oh, oh, are you still annoyed about that? Like, I'm done with that. I'm like, but we haven't spoken about it. And he's like, no, I'm finished with that now. And I'm like, no, that that's not how I work. I have to sit and chat chat things through. And he hates doing that as well.
14:08 Elizabeth Day? Well, I'm relieved that I am actually, I'm I'm wee weaseling my way into your friendship.
14:14 Speaker 01 You don't need to weasel, you're in.
14:16 Elizabeth Day? Oh, my gosh, Vogue, thank you. You're in mine, genuinely. And if we ever have conflict, which we never will.
14:21 Speaker 01 Ever.
14:22 Elizabeth Day? Ever.
14:22 Speaker 01 We'll go see a therapist together.
14:23 Elizabeth Day? We're going to see a friendship therapist, exactly. And you're going to live next door to me. And our bedrooms will look into each other's windows.
14:29 Speaker 01 I can't wait for this.
14:30 Elizabeth Day? And your stepfather will come and read The Hobbit in between our two bedrooms.
14:34 Speaker 01 And give out to us as well. And make us Hoover the house.
14:37 Elizabeth Day? I can't wait. I can't wait.
14:42 Elizabeth Day? And what is it about military childhoods? Because you were the daughter of someone who worked for the RAF, so was Jennifer Saunders. And Aid Edmondson, his parents were in the military as well.
14:54 Speaker 02 Yeah, his dad was a teacher but worked with the army, I think, yes. Yes. And then there's Abby, who we employed at Saunders and French, which was our company. We saw a lot of people to come and be a P A for us, or factotum, as she called herself. We chose her immediately because she was had an RAF background. So you're drawn to other people. I mean, I didn't know that about Jennifer when I first met her. But, you know, the more I loved her, the more I realised this is part of why I loved her. It's because you have this itinerant childhood, because you're constantly moving. You've never lived in the same house for longer than a year. You've never had the same friends for longer than a year. You're constantly putting on a personality fireworks display to
15:35 Speaker 02 make sure that you inveigle yourself into new friendship groups and you're not bullied or rejected. So you learn a bit of sort of social manners and you learn techniques. It's exhausting, actually, it's exhausting. And my mother used to say that I was a sleepwalker. And I think that was where perhaps it showed, the stress of it showed, but as a child. I didn't rest easy, I don't think, but it teaches you to be gregarious and to be ready for new adventures, if you like. People who have moved around a lot, people who understand the weird class system that exists inside the military.
16:14 Speaker 02 Oh, I don't know, or there are so many things about how you live, where you live, in particular kinds of houses, and you move from that house to another camp in another part of the country, but to a house that looks exactly the same with the same furniture. But now new people, you know, and you can never quite keep a dog and you can never, you know, it's you're moving and you're abroad and then your dad's away from you for two years and, you know, it's all very weird. And so it's a relief when you meet other people who've had the same experience because you don't have to explain it.
16:44 Elizabeth Day? Um. What do you think, French and Saunders, and your your long, long collaboration, both personal and professional, with Jennifer, who I know you call Fatty Saunders.
16:55 Speaker 02 Yes.
16:56 Elizabeth Day? What do you think it's taught you about friendship?
16:59 Speaker 02 Oh goodness, so much. Well, you know, first of all, as you said, we we did not really like each other on first sight. We're very different. We still are very different. I believe we're from different classes, if that still is even a conversation. I know it's more of a mushy scenario these days. When I talk to my kids about class, they don't know what I'm talking about. They literally don't understand what I mean.
17:23 Elizabeth Day? But I think it's still very, it's implied now rather than spoken about openly. But the fact that we constantly vote old Dotonians into office, which suggests that there's some dysfunction.
17:34 Speaker 02 Really, actually, isn't it? Yeah, so when I met Jennifer, I mean, you know, I regarded her as out of my league entirely for lots of reasons. She was seemingly confident, seemingly. She was very beautiful. She was an officer's daughter. Now, when you are in the military, these ranks mean everything. The officers live at the other end of the camp, they have detached houses, they have houses with bathrooms with sinks in. You know, there are huge things that make you very different from them. And so I'm part of the Oik end of the camp. And really, I didn't mix with the officers' kids. And suddenly, she's an officer's kid.
18:15 Speaker 02 So I was I was thinking, I wonder, you're not the type I mix with, slightly plummy voice, but I was so wrong. You know, this is why you should never judge the book. Never do that. And I have a prejudice against posh people. I realise I've always had it and I still think I have it a little bit. A posh person has to kind of earn my respect before I can freely give it in a way I would to somebody else. Which is mad, really, and I I should have learnt these lessons by now. But as soon as we were friends and we shared a flat together, then I thought, oh, that that's ludicrous. But she did different things to me. She was invited to things called drinks parties.
18:58 Speaker 02 She would get invitations, proper embossed invitations, and they'd be on the mantelpiece and they'd say, you know, Jennifer is invited by Fifi, bloody bloody, you know, with somebody double-barreled. Two drinks and Chelsea uh between six and eight on Wednesday. And I think, what is that? Who is fiddly, bloody, bloody, who is she? Why only drinks? Well, you're not gonna have your tea. You're not gonna have anything to eat. That, why are you going for drinks? What drink? What's standing about and drinking? I did, this is not something I'd ever heard of. And I went to a couple of these things with her and they were pretty horrendous, but these were young people mimicking their parents' behaviour of having their friends round for drinks.
19:42 Speaker 02 You know, this was not something I'd ever heard of, you know, so she showed me all kinds of things like that. And I know that I was just, I was very uh chippy and I think I was a bit blunt. I also, my dad had just died and I was dripping with grief and trying to cover that up. So I think I was not quite entirely authentic, really. But she understood that with time. So, yeah, we were very, very different and and it was only when we kind of fell in love with each other, when we lived together, that all of those prejudices melted away.
20:18 Elizabeth Day? I love that language, falling in platonic love. It's so important.
20:22 Speaker 02 Absolutely.
20:23 Elizabeth Day? I don't want to gloss over the fact that your father died by suicide and we'll come back to that. I'm so sorry you went through that at that age.
20:30 Speaker 02 Thank you.
20:32 Elizabeth Day? A lot of what you say about Jennifer, I can apply to my own best friend. We didn't like each other. I didn't really like her at first sight. I thought she seemed really confident. I was like, she's not going to be for the likes of me. And I think it's the most sustaining, most consistent love of my life. And I think the thing that Emma has taught me is that there's great safety in our attachment. So we can have periods where we've had like one rupture that was then repaired and made us closer.
20:55 Speaker 02 Yes, okay.
20:56 Elizabeth Day? Have you experienced that with Jennifer?
20:58 Speaker 02 Yes, but you've got to remember Jennifer is my very, very, very close friend, but I also have a bestie.
21:05 Elizabeth Day? Okay.
21:05 Speaker 02 That's aside from Jennifer. And in fact, I have other friends as well. So I have a little group, a little caucus of really beloved, valuable female friends. And probably in that I put a gay friend too, a gay man who is an honorary woman in that gang. Of people that, as you say, I feel entirely safe with, who know me inside out. And who support me inside out and for whom I would support them in exactly the same way. But Jennifer is right up there. And yes, I think I've never had a rupture, your word, with Jennifer. I have with my bestie, which we similarly recovered from and learnt from.
21:47 Speaker 02 And it was incredibly painful because you can't believe that you would have such a tearing with somebody you love so much. But of course, that's when it's going to hurt because you love them so much. But Jennifer and I have a different kind of system. And I think it's because we work together as well as play together, which is that we take a sort of constant temperature of each other. So we never have got to a difficult row. We've never had a row. We might have had a bit of sulking. And even that, I can hardly remember any of that. We seem to have a kind of innate compromise kind of gauge.
22:30 Speaker 02 And I think this comes from working together. So because we're writing together, we understand what the other person is contributing and who came up with the idea and who's writing it down and who's had the most to do with it. But we will get to a moment when, I can think of one sketch we did particularly, where I had quite strong feelings about the way it should go and she had strong feelings the other way. And it was as if I, you know, I took the temperature at that moment and thought, actually, she wrote this. It was her idea. This is the time to surrender. You know, give in. This is her baby. I need to follow here. And she does the same for me. And I don't even know how we navigate it, but we do. And that is a testament to
23:11 Speaker 02 strong, empowering, female, understanding friendships.
23:16 Elizabeth Day? Yes. I also love something you've said in the past about how you might have felt jealous about the AB Fab success that Jennifer had. So, but because you loved her so much, the pride overwhelmed the jealousy. You could feel both things. And actually, the positive win. I was, I've never heard someone put that into words before, and it's so true.
23:35 Speaker 02 Well, you have a cocktail of emotions. That's what you have. And I'm imagining it's very akin to what being a sister is like. I don't have a sister. I've got a sister-in-law who I love very much, but I don't have a sister. And I'm imagining this must be what sisters have to navigate all the time. You know, who's the favourite, who's the most successful, who's managed this, who's, does the other one feel failed because this one has succeeded? I imagine it's a bit like that, like a sisterhood. And so, yeah, again, what I'm all for is owning the rather ugly little moments of jealousy, or failure, or anything you're feeling that's a bit difficult, and explain it to the other person, because we're
24:15 Speaker 02 all human. And if that other person has it explained to them, they can help you through it. It's so much easier that.
24:23 Elizabeth Day? So much easier. And then you had the vicar of Dibley anyway. So who's laughing now?
24:30 Elizabeth Day? Please do follow How To Fail to get new episodes as they land on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts. Please tell all your friends. This is an Elizabeth Day and Sony Music Entertainment original podcast. Thank you so much for listening.
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