President Zelenskyy: Peace Is A Huge Compromise, The Horrific Atrocities Of Russian War Crimes!

What does it truly cost a human being to lead a nation through an existential war while the world watches from afar? President Volodymyr Zelenskyy reveals the psychological toll of continuous survival, the grim realities of geopolitical negotiation, and what keeps him still standing. Volodymyr Zelenskyy is the President of Ukraine, having led the nation through its darkest historical hours following the full-scale Russian invasion in 2022. A former lawyer, comedian, and actor turned wartime leader, he transitioned from satirical television to the global stage. His current administration focuses on securing Ukraine's sovereignty, managing international diplomacy, and defending democratic freedom against imperial aggression. In this episode, he explains: ■ The Burden of Command: How constant psychological pressure and nightly military briefings push his endurance to its limits under relentless wartime pressure. ■ The Fatal Miscalculation: Why Russia's catastrophic military mistake came from a failure to recognize Ukrainians as a distinct people willing to fight for their freedom. ■ The Turning Point of Atrocity: How witnessing the aftermath of war in liberated towns transformed a political conflict into deeply personal tragedy where easy forgiveness became impossible. ■ The Cost of Staying: Why the refusal to evacuate Kyiv was driven by the absolute need to remain visible and prevent the nation from surrendering out of fear. ■ The Geopolitical Reality: How true diplomatic peace requires holding aggressive regimes fully accountable for their crimes rather than shifting the blame onto global energy markets. Chapters 00:00:00 Intro 00:02:07 How Is Zelensky Really Doing? 00:06:15 "I Don't Sleep": The Human Cost of War 00:09:53 What Keeps Zelensky Going 00:11:24 Growing Up in Soviet Ukraine 00:13:18 His Family Killed by the Nazis 00:13:38 From Law Student to Comedian 00:15:50 He Played a President on TV, Then Became One 00:17:21 Why Zelensky Left Comedy for Politics 00:20:36 When Did the Russia-Ukraine War Really Start? 00:25:12 Putin's Plan to Rebuild the Soviet Union 00:33:31 Why Putin Invaded in 2022 00:36:46 Did Biden's Weakness Let Putin Invade? 00:40:12 The Warnings Before the Invasion 00:41:59 Where Zelensky Was When Russia Invaded 00:47:01 Would This Have Happened Under Trump? 00:49:06 How Russia Planned to Take Kyiv 00:53:32 The 40-Mile Convoy: Why Russia Failed 00:55:26 Biden's Evacuation Offer: "I Need Ammunition" 00:59:51 Was Zelensky Scared? 01:02:37 The Moment the War Became Real 01:05:19 Russia's Big Mistake: Parade Uniforms 01:12:40 The Battle for Hostomel Airport 01:15:04 What Happened in Bucha 01:21:20 His Hardest Day: "I Wanted Revenge" 01:23:55 How the War Has Changed Him 01:29:15 Being a Father During the War 01:32:22 His Mum's Daily Phone Calls 01:33:19 What Russia Occupies Now 01:36:12 Russia's Strikes Across Ukraine 01:37:14 What Putin Really Wants 01:39:37 Will Putin Use Nuclear Weapons? 01:41:09 Trump Says Ukraine Needs a New President 01:46:01 How This War Ends: Trump, Putin & a Ceasefire 01:48:22 Zelensky's Message to America Follow President Volodymyr Zelenskyy: The Diary Of A CEO: ◼ Join DOAC circle here - https://doaccircle.com/ ◼ Buy The Diary Of A CEO book here - https://link.thediaryofaceo.com/BWjLTZK ◼ Shop The Diary Of A CEO collection: https://thediary.com/collections/shop ◼ Get email updates - https://link.thediaryofaceo.com/5IB1H6E ◼ Follow Steven - https://link.thediaryofaceo.com/AGU9QP4 Sponsors: Bon Charge: https://boncharge.com/DOAC for 20% off

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Steven Bartlett?

  As a founder building a business when I was in my early twenties, I think I always had a deep sense of imposter syndrome because there was something that I wasn't good at. And that thing was finances. Finance and understanding your financial position as a small business is the great enabler of all of your dreams. I was running from it until I discovered a platform called Zero. Zero is an accounting and financial management platform specifically for small businesses. And it brings accounting, payments, payroll and analytics all into one place, even for people that don't love doing finances. Zero wants to do the financial work for you, but its core ambition is to go beyond keeping the financial record because Zero wants to help you understand what's happening in your business. And increasingly, and this is maybe the most important thing, is help you make decisions.

• 0:45Steven Bartlett?

  Finally, we have a partner who can enable us in a simple way for those people that are both left brain or right brain and enable our dreams. You can learn more about Zero by going to zero.com. Thank you to Zero. Thank you for sponsoring this podcast, but also thank you for helping me to scale my business as somebody that, quite frankly, has never loved finances that much. President Zelensky, how are you doing?

• 1:10Speaker 01

  Well, it's hard.

• 1:14Speaker 01

  I'll be honest, I don't sleep. It's a huge terrifying pain that I wouldn't wish on anyone.

• 1:22Steven Bartlett?

  I can see the tears in your eyes.

• 1:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:28Speaker 01

  The war started February 24th of 22. I didn't think there would be a full scale invasion. I was with my family, told my wife that to the kids, the war has started. I love you, I'll call you and ran up.

• 1:42Steven Bartlett?

  Satellite imagery captured a massive 64 kilometer long Russian military convoy leading to Kiev.

• 1:49Speaker 01

  And just imagine 200,000 people are coming at you. It's simply impossible to defend. Missiles were raining down on your head. Those were absolutely horrifying moments. And I was in the bunker built right inside my office. Biden called me, we are ready to help you evacuate.

• 2:05Steven Bartlett?

  What did you say to Biden?

• 2:06Speaker 01

  I need ammunition, not a ride. They expected people to run and me, I couldn't abandon the people. And then people showed up as volunteers and our army grew from 200,000 to an army of 800,000. Day after day, we pushed back harder.

• 2:24Steven Bartlett?

  But what was your hardest day through the last four years?

• 2:26Speaker 01

  We liberated Bucha, I went there, dead bodies lying everywhere. Kids, adults, elderly people, chopped meat, butchered them, hands tied, tortured and then buried in pits. When you see a mass today finding a grave in the US or in Britain, God forbid, with 500 tortured people, how do you forgive? And that's why when President Trump says we need to find a compromise, well, you can't just forgive everything like that.

• 2:57Steven Bartlett?

  Is there a realistic path to the end of this war?

• 3:12Steven Bartlett?

  President Zelensky,

• 3:15Steven Bartlett?

  sometimes the question I'm about to ask you, we answer it flippantly when people ask, but I really want you to answer it in the fullest, honest context you possibly can.

• 3:26Steven Bartlett?

  How are you doing?

• 3:28Speaker 01

  Well, it's hard.

• 3:33Speaker 01

  Hard because it's like I'm surviving along with my country and with the people. And it's like really a question like, will tomorrow come or not? And the answer to that is yes, it will. You can't answer it any other way because I am, that means my family, my relatives, my country, I'm an inseparable part of it. And so how do I feel? Hard, but with understanding the difficult reality with optimism because I still believe good wins. I believe in that, truly.

• 4:09Steven Bartlett?

  Is it a bit of a roller coaster on a human level for you? Are there days where

• 4:16Steven Bartlett?

  there's more hope and days where there's less hope?

• 4:20Speaker 01

  You can't live without hope. I understand sometimes inside, you know, you can be shattered inside, especially during wartime, especially

• 4:31Speaker 01

  families who, you know, lose someone close in their family,

• 4:38Speaker 01

  a child, God forbid, or a wife, a husband, a mother. That is, it's just an internal breakdown. It's very hard. And it's much harder for them, I believe. Just so much harder than than it is for me with all these challenges.

• 5:01Steven Bartlett?

  The weight of all of this sits often on your shoulders. And when someone does lose a child or a loved one or a wife or a sister or a daughter,

• 5:12Steven Bartlett?

  I imagine, as I've seen from some of these photos I have here of you, I mean, this photo in particular stands out to me.

• 5:20Speaker 01

  Oh, that's a terrible story.

• 5:23Speaker 01

  It's just a terrible story. That was, that's when a missile hit a playground. And the missile's speed was such that the siren didn't help at all. So it was a matter of seconds. And the missile struck and children were killed. And both children were killed there, mostly, and adults, just adults, right there. A couple I remember, they were just out walking, passing by. And because they were walking by and were killed. Parents, you know, like right on this, on this side, there are homes too. And parents there, they, some of them saw through the window.

• 6:07Speaker 01

  Do you understand what it's like to see through a window, one of your children just torn apart? And toys, just such a, during such a tragedy, it's a tradition to bring flowers for adults and toys for children. I went there, it's pain, I'll say it again. My pain can't even, it's not even 10% of the parents' pain. It's terrifying, just terrifying. A missile that cut short the life of a child who had seen nothing yet. Imagine, by the way, and there are children, a lot of them, among the fallen as well, who never lived in peace.

• 6:54Speaker 01

  I mean, we, we lived in a different time. We understand what it's like to live when there are no sirens, no shelling and so on. But there are kids, every night they go down to the bomb shelter when the alarm goes off and the alarm goes off every night. Then they come back up and some of them have died. And just imagine, there are children who never knew what peace was. That's horrifying, absolutely.

• 7:19Steven Bartlett?

  You said at the start of this invasion, this war, that you weren't sleeping. You said early in this invasion, you said you've not earned the right to sleep. And I'm really curious about the sort of human toll that all of this has taken on you over the last four, five years because it never stops, it never ends. And you, you are a human being, just like all the rest of us. You have a family, you have kids, but you have the, the burden of this kind of horrific incident taking place in your country all the, all the time. What is, what is the sort of human burden there? And are you sleeping?

• 7:56Speaker 01

  I'll be honest, I don't sleep. I'm a responsible person. I have different traits, good ones, not so good ones, like every person. Nobody's perfect. Yeah. And every night I speak with our air defense operators, with our guys who run the air defense. Every night we talk. Well, yeah, thanks to modern technology, it's very easy. And we text back and forth, what's needed right now? Let's pull some over from another region. So it's an active discussion, which obviously, well, doesn't let you sleep. Yeah, you know, getting eight hours of sleep like that is something,

• 8:38Speaker 01

  something totally new to me during these years, almost five years of war. I'm not complaining, I'm not complaining at all. And that's how I live.

• 8:51Speaker 01

  The burden, the strongest emotion, I once answered this honestly. There's a moment when I present awards and there's this moment when I award and personally, the hero of Ukraine, it's the highest honor. When I present this award to parents who lost a child, yeah, a boy or a girl, soldiers, that feeling, you know, well, how, I cease to exist in that moment. I'm just, well, it's not, it's not pain, it's something terrible. I look at these people, at their eyes, at what they say. Many of them say something.

• 9:34Speaker 01

  And, and there are people who just ask for a hug. Imagine you give an award to a father whose very strong hand you can feel. He's, you know, a strong man. You feel his strong hand and he just quietly says to you, can we hug? So they, well, you know, they're gone, gone as people anymore. Well, for a time, then strong people try to survive. And these moments, on the one, on the one hand, I respect them, I do it. But on the other hand, it's hard to bear. I, I understand them. And it's a huge terrifying pain that I wouldn't wish on anyone.

• 10:18Speaker 01

  What these parents feel, having lost a child, a soldier. These parents didn't lose a child on a playground, they lost a soldier. They knew that could happen. But knowing and losing are completely different things.

• 10:36Steven Bartlett?

  I can see the tears in your eyes as you describe this.

• 10:41Speaker 01

  I'm a human being. I'm not ashamed to be who I am. I'm not the strongest man in the world. I try to set an example, but I'm definitely not a perfect person. Yeah.

• 10:58Steven Bartlett?

  Is there anything that you, because this is, this is a lot to deal with. You know, I hear you recounting the stories of dealing with these parents. Is there anything that you, you do to take care of yourself? What is it that keeps you strong?

• 11:11Speaker 01

  My kids, my kids, I, I just, you know, I have to be an example. I told myself, maybe I don't have to, but that's what I told myself. I have to set an example for my kids. This is the way, that is not. And you have to set an example, be strong, be as brave as possible, but don't,

• 11:37Speaker 01

  don't hide the pain. If you have it, you shouldn't say, I don't feel anything. Because human beings by nature, they're alive. And that's their weakness, but it's also where a person's strength lies. That really is where our strength is. And so my kids keep me grounded, very much so. I want to set an example. I want them to be proud of me.

• 11:58Steven Bartlett?

  We'll talk about that later, but there's, um, there's one big outstanding question, which is, who is President Zelensky? And I've been through hundreds and hundreds of photos and stories from your childhood. I've got some, some wonderful photos here of your earliest days. And, and this is a beautiful one of your wonderful mother as well.

• 12:21Speaker 01

  That's my mom, yeah.

• 12:24Speaker 01

  Mom was very beautiful. Well, she still is, but she's gotten older.

• 12:28Steven Bartlett?

  Can you take me into your earliest context, just so I can get a sort of a view of what childhood was like for you? What's the context in which you grew up? And really, I want to understand how that context and early experience fed into the man you are today, the perspective you have, the values that you cherish?

• 12:48Speaker 01

  I'm from the generation that straddled, uh, two, uh, let's say, two different lives. Meaning I was born in the Soviet Union when Ukraine was part of the Soviet Union. And I grew up in an independent Ukraine. And I've always said that my kids, they're lucky because they were born in an independent country. Without all these, you know, shades of gray. This is gray, that's something else. No, it's black and white, totally clear. They're patriots. They love their country and their country is Ukraine.

• 13:29Speaker 01

  While we were born in the Soviet Union and, you know, we, we were kids from a fairly, let's say not, I don't want to offend anyone, so my dad doesn't get upset. Well, from a regular, very ordinary family, not, not very well off. Let's put it that way. Yeah, let's put it that way. Well, that's, and I think it's totally clear from the photos. I was born in Krytyrych, an academic family in Soviet era Ukraine. Wasn't, um, not, not like, you know, in Europe or in the United States. An academic family with everything provided.

• 14:10Speaker 01

  Usually our academics didn't make a lot of money. But again, I'm, I'm not complaining. I respect my father, an honest man, a professor. Well, values. Again and again, I got an education and I got raised right. And my parents love, I think those three things are enough to be grateful to your parents.

• 14:37Speaker 01

  I'm not sure people find this interesting, so let's move on.

• 14:42Steven Bartlett?

  When you were a young boy in those photos, when you're under the age of 10, had I asked you what you wanted to be when you grew up? What, what would you have answered?

• 14:52Speaker 01

  Because, and to be honest, I changed like the wind.

• 14:56Speaker 01

  Honestly, there was a time when I really wanted to be a diplomat, wanted to be a border guard. Yeah. And then I went to law school, graduated from law faculty. And while studying, I realized that I was more interested in media. So I got out and started working that exact field.

• 15:19Steven Bartlett?

  I mean, at 17 years old, you became interested in comedy?

• 15:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:22Steven Bartlett?

  And you joined a comedy group? And you, from what I read, you, you did that up until the age of about 26 years old. So you were a comedian up until the age of 26 years old? Before starting a media company?

• 15:35Speaker 01

  I, yeah, but I was more, I enjoyed, I was a script writer. And so sometimes as a writer, I also did, um, a little acting. I, I enjoyed it. Yeah, until I was 26 and then, um, at 26, I got my own company.

• 15:55Steven Bartlett?

  There's some interesting stats I found. Uh, 28 years old, you won Ukraine's Dancing with the Stars?

• 16:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:05Steven Bartlett?

  So you can dance?

• 16:07Speaker 01

  I think yes. I'm not sure that now I can.

• 16:11Steven Bartlett?

  And later you voiced Paddington Bear in the Ukrainian language film.

• 16:15Speaker 01

  Yeah. I really, really loved, I think Paddington is a very cool thing. Really right. And for the people, I'm not sure all of it is just for kids, to be honest. But nonetheless, that character resonated deeply with me. And I, I, even after I became president, the next Paddington installment was coming out. And all this was before the war. And they were sending me signals, would you consider voicing another Paddington movie? I said, well, I'd really love to, but I didn't, yeah.

• 16:55Steven Bartlett?

  No.

• 16:57Steven Bartlett?

  Um, and then between 34 years old and 37 years old, you appeared in a bunch of different feature films. And most interestingly, you starred as one particular character, a school teacher who accidentally becomes president in the satirical TV series called Servant of

• 17:13Speaker 01

  Of the People.

• 17:13Steven Bartlett?

  The People. I think I have a photo.

• 17:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, teacher of history.

• 17:18Steven Bartlett?

  You've got to explain the context here because people can't believe that this is true. They can't believe that you actually acted as an actor who accidentally becomes president. And you must find this bizarre that you then became president. Because presumably at that time, you weren't expecting to become president when you became an actor pretending to be president.

• 17:38Speaker 01

  Absolutely. I definitely didn't expect it, absolutely. And this idea, this, this idea was about 10 to 12 years old. Once, um, this idea came to me and I thought about it. I lived with this idea for a long time. I love doing that. And at some point, the feeling was that, um, the world is changing, Ukraine is changing. And right now this idea is relevant. It will resonate and people will like it.

• 18:08Steven Bartlett?

  What was the idea? When you say the idea?

• 18:11Speaker 01

  A person from the people without any history, without any political background, becomes president. And that's how it turned out, to be honest.

• 18:26Steven Bartlett?

  So you were playing a character in a TV series called Servant of the People. And the character was pretending to be the president. And you, and you realized that actually the idea of there being a sort of servant of the people party or president was probably quite a good idea based on what was going on in Ukraine at that time. And because of the government instability at the time, you actually registered Servant of the People as a real political party in Ukraine?

• 18:56Speaker 01

  Well, that sounds basically like a pretty good script. But it wasn't honestly calculated like that.

• 19:06Speaker 01

  The series was very popular. In parallel, there were a few other projects. We had a political satire project. It was very popular. It was even before that series. So I already had my bearings in politics anyway. The point was that indeed, um, I decided to try my hand in this direction. I really wanted, after the occupation of Crimea, after the occupation of Donbass, this whole situation changed us. And you, and, and you started to feel like something, something was going wrong here. And it's war, but there still wasn't, wasn't that feeling yet because it wasn't a full scale war.

• 19:51Speaker 01

  And so I

• 19:55Speaker 01

  didn't want to, we were doing business with Belarus and with Kazakhstan and with Russia as well. We had offices and projects that we were filming and so on. So, uh, life changed. I, I wanted to drop it all. And this, this sense of betrayal by Russia. Well, all of that happened. And that's why, and you changed, changed this whole period, changed you as well. And so it's not like it was some calculated plan. The TV show comes out and then a political party, I know about that. I know about that. Some people might think that. And that's fine, that's normal. People have their own opinions, that's normal.

• 20:34Speaker 01

  It coincided, the mood in society coincided with my inner mood and with my determination and desire. So it's a coincidence of many things.

• 20:49Steven Bartlett?

  Guys, I've got a favor to ask. The algorithm, if you follow a show, will deliver you the best episodes from that show very prominently in your feed. So when we have our best episodes on the show, the most shared episodes, the most rated episodes, I would love you to know. And the simple way for you to know that is to hit that follow button. But also, it's the simple, easy, free thing that you can do to help us make the show better. And I would be hugely grateful if you could take a minute on the app you're listening to this on right now and hit that follow button. Thank you so, so, so much. So you talked about how it was really sort of a change in the climate in Ukraine that caused you to move closer to politics, because everything that was going on at the

• 21:32Steven Bartlett?

  time, Russia invaded Crimea here in 2014.

• 21:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:37Steven Bartlett?

  The annexed Crimea. And this is, and so four years after this point, you announced that you're going to run for president. Is this really when the war began, in your view? Because there's been lots of people that have posited when the war began. Some people say the war began a thousand years ago. And they talk about the old Crimea and the everything that took took place there with the Rus. Some people say it began in 2014, and some people say it began in 2022. In your mind, when did the war begin?

• 22:10Speaker 01

  I think for many people, that time really is different. But if we take, take the new Ukraine that regained its independence in 1991, in the 20th century, then I think that in 2014, all of us just couldn't believe it, that this kind of occupation was happening. The war really started with the occupation of Crimea. That's true. It's just that it was slow, that occupation. It didn't look much like a war. Why? Well, because Ukraine wasn't fighting back at that point. Meaning, when they occupied Crimea, there were shots

• 22:54Speaker 01

  fired there, of course. But for a very long time, Russia wouldn't admit these were its people. They looked like regular people. They even called them little green men. That's what they called them. Because you couldn't tell what that uniform was. Meaning, these are people carrying some kind of weapons on the peninsula. And the problem was that there were no clear orders from the Ukrainian authorities that you need to defend your land, that someone violated your borders with weapons and is seizing, seizing, gradually seizing Crimea. So it was really that kind of creeping occupation. Looking at that time today, not back in 2014, not in 2015, but today, you realize that that's when the war

• 23:38Speaker 01

  really began. Our mistake was not pushing them back. And of course, if there had been an order, an order to defend the country, I'm sure that, I think, a full-scale war in the form it has today, wouldn't have happened. Well, at least that's how it seems to me.

• 24:00Steven Bartlett?

  I read that your great-grandfather and his grandfather's four brothers were killed by the Nazis, and his grandfather was the only brother to survive the war. And I wondered how that experience of having that in your family tree has changed how you think about this moment in time, when you're facing a war with Russia?

• 24:25Speaker 01

  My grandfather went through World War II, from start to finish. My grandfather, my father's dad, and he was, yeah, from a family where there were several brothers and all of them were killed by the Nazis. I have very few relatives, in general, on both sides of my family, on my father's and my mother's, many relatives were killed by the fascists. And that's, that's why it always sounded so bizarre when Russia accused us, Ukraine, of supposedly having Nazis. It's bizarre and completely wild. If people

• 25:07Speaker 01

  all knew even a little bit of history, they would realize that fascists in Ukraine, fascism as such doesn't exist. Why? Because Ukraine understands deep in its roots what it means to be under the fascists. Because during World War II, Ukraine was occupied 100% completely, completely, totally. Whereas Russia, Ukraine, Belarus was occupied, Ukraine, and Nazi Germany, it lost a huge number of its soldiers who died specifically in Belarus, Ukraine, because we all, well, because our countries or our lands, they stood and fought. Russia was not

• 25:50Speaker 01

  occupied. And that is also very important to understand. That's why all of our people in Ukraine saw it, well, you know, as barbaric and an outrage when Putin attacked us and said, we have fascism, and he's liberating Ukraine from fascists. I mean, it's absurd. We fought against the fascists. We were the ones liberating.

• 26:12Steven Bartlett?

  A lot of people don't have the historical context on how this all began. If I was a 16-year-old, and I had no understanding of geopolitics, and I asked you, President, I said, could you explain to me the background context that I need to understand, to understand what the hell is going on at the moment? Why are Russia going into Crimea? What is Vladimir Putin's perspective? Why does he think that that's okay? Why does he think that he can invade Ukraine? What is the historical context, explained in the simplest terms to a 16-year-old, about what the hell is going on here? And I'm going to give you all the time in the world to inform me.

• 26:49Speaker 01

  There was an empire called the Soviet Union. And that empire, it included a large number of what are now independent states. It's always like that with empires. Without getting into the historical context, everyone will understand this. It's always like that with empires. Empires exist for a while, and then they collapse. Because you can only hold everything together through autocracy, a territory like that, so many people, through tyranny, through feudalism, through slavery, through, certainly not through freedom. Empires

• 27:30Speaker 01

  don't survive on freedom. And this is very important. Why do empires fall apart? Because people want to be free. Because people compare their lives in an empire with life in other countries, even small ones. They see how things develop there. They see how things develop there, how they live, walk freely, choose any partner they want, whatever hair color you like, music, clothes, and so on. While the Soviet Union, these empires, like everyone always said, the iron curtain. Why an iron curtain? So you wouldn't see what's out there in the West, in Europe, in the United States of America, in Britain, or

• 28:09Speaker 01

  anywhere in Asia. So people couldn't see. In terms of information, an empire is hold, control everything, right? So a complete information vacuum. There, you don't exist. Nothing exists. No internet, nothing. Television that you run and control, and people get the information. People live like fish in a fish tank. That's all it is. The fish tank can be massive, like the Soviet Union, but it's still a fish tank. North Korea is a smaller fish tank, but it's a fish tank. And that's what happened with the Soviet Union. The Soviet Union fell apart. Countries were happy. Countries became independent, smaller.

• 28:53Speaker 01

  Ukraine is one of those countries. And when identity emerges, you have your own language, your own music, your own clothes, and so on. What exists all around the world? It's great. Tourism. You travel to Asia. You travel to Thailand. You travel to Japan. You travel to the United States. Different culture, different music, food, people, and everyone lives freely. And it's really cool to soak in another culture. That's the diversity. Why does an empire fall apart? Because it's made up of these kinds of people, nations, that want to have their own thing. The Soviet Union fell apart, but nostalgia for the Soviet

• 29:36Speaker 01

  Union stayed with people. Putin was the president of Russia, and he set a goal for himself. And he's a purely Soviet man, a very Soviet man. He was an intelligence officer. He worked in the KGB, in the KGB, in Germany, and so on. He said, and this is his very famous phrase, that the greatest collapse of the 20th century in the world was the fall of the Soviet Union. And all of that shows that Russia just wasn't enough for him. And he had the ambition to go back to that, to bring back the empire, to bring back the Soviet

• 30:20Speaker 01

  Union. Because he believes that another major country is to blame for the collapse of the Soviet Union. Which one? The United States of America. Because this has always been a geopolitical war. They're enemies. The Soviet Union and the United States of America, they were allies during World War II. And after that, you know, they're enemies, the Cold War, and so on. So it's very simple. Putin wanted to bring back the Soviet Union. And what is the Soviet Union? It is above all Ukraine. Ukraine, it's Ukraine. Ukraine is country number two.

• 31:01Speaker 01

  They called the Soviet Union a forge of talent. In Ukraine, there were so many people who later led, had that kind of education. Because there were many scientists, many engineers, many universities, a huge intelligentsia. That's what they said, that for the Soviet Union, Ukraine was the forge of talent. In other words, in other words, many people who came from Ukraine, who then ran various institutions, ministries in the Soviet Union and so on. Meaning it's the intellectual part of the Soviet Union. Ukraine was always rock, the biggest rocket manufacturing was here. Nuclear weapons, which Ukraine handed over.

• 31:44Speaker 01

  A lot of things were made in Ukraine. And what's the problem for Russia? If Ukraine becomes part of Europe, and without the Soviet Union, Ukraine started taking gradual steps in the other direction. Meaning if Ukraine becomes part of Europe, then Russia will collapse. It will fall apart. There are many different peoples, different religions, entirely and simply different nation, into many different countries. And Putin decided to piece this whole empire back together. This ambition, where do you start piecing it together? He started the war in Chechnya.

• 32:27Speaker 01

  He occupied Chechnya, a small country that is now part of Russia. He destroyed it completely. Everything that's happening in eastern Ukraine, it's the very same commanders, military commanders who fought in Chechnya, who destroyed Chechnya completely. There was nothing left, no buildings, nothing. People were killed, killed, a huge number of people, by the way, were killed in Chechnya. And he occupied it. And then he decided to bring back the empire, starting with Ukraine, with a free state. One that wants to be in the European Union, one that is smart, intellectual. Other countries too, but here, here's what it is.

• 33:10Speaker 01

  Well, and the start, there always has to be a pretext to start an occupation. What pretext? It's always a pretext. The pretext is always language. And he starts with Crimea. He starts the occupation with Crimea. Why? In Crimea, there were a lot of Russian-speaking people, Russian-speaking Ukrainians. But to understand this, and in Crimea, there was deportation. There was more than one deportation, expulsion of the Tatars. In other words, Crimea has indigenous peoples and it's a multi-ethnic peninsula.

• 33:51Speaker 01

  But what happened is, he started the occupation with Crimea and with Donbass, with the east. Why? Because he divided society, unleashed this war based on language. Because language is always such an issue, a painful issue. And when you want to divide society, it's totally unfair. It's totally despicable toward the people. You start bringing up the language issue. So he brought it up, said that I'm protecting Russian-speaking people, which wasn't true. Nobody took anything from anyone. Yeah, but it was just easier. The east of the country borders with the Russian Federation.

• 34:36Steven Bartlett?

  Days before, I think it was the day before Vladimir Putin ordered troops to invade Ukraine. He did a statement where he said, "Modern Ukraine was entirely and completely created by Russia." More precisely, Bolshevik communist Russia. This process began almost immediately after the 1917 revolution. Soviet Ukraine is the result of Bolshevik policy and can rightly be called Vladimir leans Ukraine. Ukraine never had a tradition of genuine statehood. So he's very much denying that Ukraine is a nation of itself. Why did he choose to invade February 24th? Why did he choose then to invade?

• 35:16Steven Bartlett?

  If he had invaded Crimea in 2014, why was, in your view, that the moment where he decided to cross the border? And try and, by the looks of it, take control of the whole of Ukraine?

• 35:27Speaker 01

  First of all, notice he talks about the Soviet Revolution of 1917. That's ridiculous to anyone. Your country's history can't start in 1917. In Ukraine, there are churches, everyone knows, we have very beautiful churches that are a thousand years old. Ukrainian churches, painted by Ukrainians, total master professionals, a thousand years old. Ukraine is, it's the heir to Kievan Rus, a great state that was very well-known in Europe, on the European continent at least, with an advanced civilization. It really with its own art, with its own traditions and so on.

• 36:12Speaker 01

  Russia wasn't even close to existing. Russia came after Ukraine already existed. But he cuts all that out, starts with the revolution. Why? From the October Revolution of 1917? Because he's talking about the history of the Soviet Union, not about the history of Russia and not about the history of Ukraine, the Soviet Union. Why? Because he's signaling to people who are in Russia, who honestly, the kids, they get information in schools and they take it, they don't go any deeper. He's signaling to them that their life is the Soviet Union and that's where we're heading back to. That's what he's doing. He started a full-scale war.

• 36:54Speaker 01

  The war started 24th, 24th of 22, February 24th. Missile strikes were launched immediately from the territory. It was flying from every side. Troops were also entering from the territory of Belarus, right? From here, because it's the closest route to the capital. They were advancing on Kiev and also came from all directions. They, the main goal was to seize the capital of Ukraine. That was their main goal.

• 37:36Speaker 01

  Naturally, they were counting on the tough guys who were both Russian and the separatists already in the occupied, in the occupied territory of Donbass.

• 37:46Steven Bartlett?

  Why, why in February 2022? Why not later? Why not sooner? Why was that the moment? What had happened that, you know, because I, a part of the reason I asked this question is because President Donald Trump often blames Joe Biden for being weak and that giving Vladimir Putin an opportunity to invade because he didn't respect President Biden. That's what's claimed. Is there truth in that?

• 38:13Speaker 01

  I'll explain. I think that it was a little bit earlier. In 21, there was a summit, I don't remember when anymore, I think, I don't remember. There was a Biden-Putin summit, remember that famous summit? We didn't have all the details. They came out and started talking about something publicly and so on.

• 38:37Speaker 01

  Then rumors started that they discussed the issue of a possible escalation against Ukraine. And we kept bringing up this issue over the next few months. We kept bringing it up with the Americans. And this could really happen. And they were saying, well, it could happen. We asked them then, please give us what we need to defend ourselves if there are such risks that some kind of occupation could start. We couldn't imagine though that full-scale invasion would start because we saw what Russian occupation looked like with Crimea and with Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts. So you imagined it differently.

• 39:20Speaker 01

  You couldn't imagine that overnight missiles would just start flying. Nobody had ever seen anything like that. Why were kids screaming? Why were people fleeing? Why was there absolute chaos? Those were absolutely horrifying moments because missiles are literally flying at you. Nowadays, a thousand drones fly in and we shoot them down, we fight. But back then, right around four in the morning, missiles were raining down on your head. Everyone was in shock. So he did it in February because that's what he wanted to do. That was his, his plan. I think he told Biden a whole lot of things.

• 40:01Speaker 01

  I remember, unfortunately, I think unfortunately, President Biden stepped in later

• 40:08Speaker 01

  in the first minutes or days of the war. I had a call with him back then, when he offered to evacuate me. Back then, a lot of people offered me help. I said, "Give us weapons, help us defend the country." And I think they realized that it's impossible to occupy us.

• 40:30Speaker 01

  That's what I think, think happened. I think that the United States back then, I don't know, maybe they did consider that it could turn out that there'd be a conflict and we might be occupied, but nobody counted on us holding out for sure. I remember that, I think, a day before, God, that was so long ago. I've forgotten so much already. A day before the invasion, the Europeans, who knew less than the Americans, they were talking with Putin. And Putin promised them there wouldn't be an invasion. Oh, he lied to all of them back then. Just, he knew there would be an invasion. He knew everything.

• 41:12Steven Bartlett?

  When did you first get a phone call telling you that Russia were planning to invade Ukraine? How many days before it happened, did you get that call? And who was the call from?

• 41:23Speaker 01

  It was never direct, like Russia plans an invasion on such and such day, and there will be a full-scale war like this and that. It was never like that. These were very cautious diplomatic signals and so on. And this, how can I put it? We kept bringing up this issue. Why? Because people were worried. And people were worried. That affected the economy and affected the currency. And the stability of the national currency started to drop, which affected the country's economy. And we asked the Americans, give us a clear signal. If you believe this is war, then give us weapons urgently.

• 42:08Speaker 01

  Everything you can give, because, well, that's what our dialogue was like. Yeah, well, but nobody would, would give anything. And I asked, impose sanctions. That's something everybody in Europe knew about. They knew. I asked President Biden, impose sanctions on Russia now preemptively. If you know there could be an invasion, impose sanctions. We other, and then he won't go in if he's really decided to. But President Biden said, we'll impose sanctions if there's an invasion. Post facto, not preemptive sanctions, but post facto. I'm not God to judge a president,

• 42:51Speaker 01

  but I believe that was a mistake, in my view.

• 42:57Steven Bartlett?

  Russia invaded Ukraine in February 2022, but in October 2021, the Director of National Intelligence and CIA Director briefed US leadership and top NATO allies that Putin was making concrete plans for a multi-front invasion. And European media published satellite imagery showing 100,000 Russian troops, tanks and field hospitals that had started to emerge. And CIA Director flew to Moscow to warn Putin directly against invading in November 2021. Then in December 2021, the US government took the rare step of declassifying intelligence maps and troop estimates, predicting an invasion force of up to 175,000 troops to prevent Russia from using a false flag operation as a pretext.

• 43:42Steven Bartlett?

  And then in late January, early February 2021, the US National Security Advisor publicly warned that invasion could begin at any time, urging foreign citizens to evacuate Ukraine. And then on February 24th, 2022, Russia launched the full-scale invasion. And they launched the invasion from multiple sides.

• 44:01Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 44:01Steven Bartlett?

  Really with the focus on Kiev.

• 44:03Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 44:05Steven Bartlett?

  Can you remember where you were when you realized that they had crossed multiple borders of Ukraine at the same time? I, I want to, if I was a fly on the wall, in whatever room you were in, wherever you were, what would I have seen? Where were you? How did you find out?

• 44:22Speaker 01

  First of all, I'd like you to know that in Belarus, the Russians were conducting drills, training. These were annual drills. That's very important, because when we talked to our partners and they briefed, like you're saying, folks from NATO and so on, nobody fully believed it. Why? Because everybody said they were just sabre rattling.

• 44:48Speaker 01

  Putin was intentionally trying to scare everyone. He wouldn't launch an invasion, what I just told you. European leaders called him. He said, I won't invade. He had exercises in Belarus, military exercises. On top of that, our Defense Minister was invited there to these exercises, and he was there. Just so you understand. Imagine that. He went there, came back, and so on. And then the full-scale invasion started from multiple directions. And what the Europeans said echoing my messages was impose sanctions and give weapons to the Ukrainians if you know an invasion is coming. The Americans didn't do that.

• 45:32Speaker 01

  They didn't give them and didn't impose sanctions. And that's why everyone had doubts. Everyone thought the Russians were just bluffing. Why? Because he wanted to push us into the Minsk agreements and so on, so that we'd give them Donbass and recognize Donbass as not Ukraine and also recognize Crimea as not Ukraine. That's what, in other words, that was the format of pressure. But what happened, happened.

• 45:57Steven Bartlett?

  What did you believe?

• 45:59Speaker 01

  I didn't think there would be a full-scale invasion. And so on, so. That we give them Donbass and recognize as not Ukraine and also recognize Crimea as not Ukraine. That's what, in other words, that was the format of pressure. But what happened, happened. I didn't think there would be a full-scale invasion. I didn't think so, because I believe that if people know there's going to be a full-scale invasion, partners and so on, and they don't take preemptive steps, don't sit him down at the table, don't tell him, are you out of your mind? Have you lost your mind to wage war in the 20th century to kill people? You're completely unhinged. But even so, a full-scale invasion happened. And just, and they approached Kiev very quickly.

• 46:43Speaker 01

  Like, really quickly. I mean, it was just, it was, well, an avalanche. And I was, I was with my family.

• 46:56Speaker 01

  And I was with my family. I got a call from the office saying that, before that, during the night, missiles were flying, missiles. I got ready, told my wife, told the kids, told them the war has started. And I went to the office. I arrived at the office. I was the first or second, the second person, I think, in the office. And I called everyone in and we started,

• 47:28Speaker 01

  started the workday, such a terrible workday, the first one during the full-scale war.

• 47:35Steven Bartlett?

  What did your wife say?

• 47:39Speaker 01

  I don't remember.

• 47:42Speaker 01

  I, it was very fast. Everything happened so fast. I told my wife, wake up quickly, the war has started. I, I love you, I'll call you, and ran out.

• 47:53Steven Bartlett?

  And life has not been the same since.

• 47:57Speaker 01

  Absolutely. It's just a different life. Everything is different. Everything's different, 100%.

• 48:07Steven Bartlett?

  When I was doing my research on that day when Russia invaded, what I couldn't believe is just the, the volume of troops that rolled across the border. I read one thing that said there was 65 kilometers of armored vehicles and troops on one particular road as they tried to take Kiev. I want to talk about that, but I, I just, I really want to also get an answer to this sort of outstanding question in my head, which is, Trump has repeatedly said, probably 100 times now, that this never would have begun. It never would have happened if he was president. Do you believe that?

• 48:50Speaker 01

  I think that nobody knows the answer, honestly.

• 48:57Speaker 01

  The fact remains that this happened during Biden's presidency. That's a fact. It's a fact that this didn't happen under Trump. A fact.

• 49:13Speaker 01

  But it's also a fact that Putin chose the moment for a full occupation. That's also a fact. I think Trump had a special relationship with Putin and still does. And maybe it really is possible that Trump being on friendly terms with Putin could have prevented a full-scale invasion. But one thing you have to know for sure, neither I nor Trump, we were not eternal in these presidential seats. And so either way, Trump's presidency would have ended and Putin still

• 49:58Speaker 01

  wouldn't have been able to change his main goal, the occupation of Ukraine. So I think that honestly, it doesn't matter who the president is, as long as Putin is there.

• 50:11Steven Bartlett?

  On February the 24th, when Russia invaded Ukraine, it is reported that they sent, there's different numbers, but some of the numbers go up to 200,000 troops that were assembled across the Ukrainian border. It varies between 150,000, 190,000. And when I look at the total active number of troops in Ukraine at the time, it's almost the same number. So it's almost as if Russia deployed the full size of the number of active-duty personnel you had into Ukraine to attack Ukraine and specifically to take Kiev. Can you, can you just explain to me in simple terms how they staged that attack? You said that some troops came in from Belarus. There was support that came in trying to take Kiev as well.

• 50:55Speaker 01

  They knew that our main forces, our main forces were in the east of our country. Donetsk and Luhansk regions, yes, Donetsk, Luhansk region. Why were Donetsk, Luhansk regions where our main units were? Look, there is Kharkiv, which was also their target. Look, this whole, all this, all this whole part. Mariupol, which was very important to them. Donetsk, which was already occupied and so on. So what was the bottom line? Because when part of it was occupied, when Donetsk was occupied,

• 51:36Speaker 01

  look, Makeev, Kaya, Akiv, all of that was after the occupation of Crimea. Look, all of this was occupied, this entire part. Very strong troops were stationed here. Strong both in terms of numbers and strength and the separatists. And they were fighting against us. Meaning you have to understand, these are people who considered Donetsk their homeland. These aren't just Russians, these are separatists. So there were both separatists and Russians here. So this was their strongest grouping. And our strongest grouping was stationed right here. And that was, and that was constantly, they were here, they were stationed right here. Why were they, why were they stationed here?

• 52:19Speaker 01

  Because they were holding back the strongest Russian grouping so it wouldn't break through. And nobody expected that they would go through Belarus and advance on the capital. And that's why we didn't have any strong troops here. That is an absolute fact. We simply didn't have that kind of army. The entire Ukrainian army was, well, excuse me, it was later I changed the law to make it 200,000 plus, up to 250. But before that, it was an even smaller force. And just imagine, 200,000 people are coming at you. Well, it's simply impossible to defend. You need an army like the one we have today, 800,000, which was actually

• 53:01Speaker 01

  the main problem for the Russians troops. When they couldn't take our capital, we held out and destroyed them. They couldn't, they didn't have enough troops to hold the occupied territories here. And they had to pull back. We were hitting them and they were pulling back. And that's how we fully took back Kiev region, Chernihiv region and that whole front. We completely restored it and pushed them out entirely. So it's completely obvious, they just didn't have enough troops.

• 53:42Speaker 01

  Just like at first, when they pushed in, we didn't have a strong army here. We didn't have enough troops. And later the same happened to them. Naturally, when the full-scale invasion started, we, there was mobilization. And people, there were lines, people showed up as volunteers. And our army grew from 200,000 to an army of 800,000. While the Russian presence was around, by the way, the Russian presence was around 700, probably at that moment, around 700,000 across all directions on Ukrainian territory. Meaning this was a massive onslaught coming in, a massive onslaught.

• 54:24Steven Bartlett?

  There's, in late February, satellite imagery captured a massive 64 kilometer, which is 40 mile long Russian military convoy.

• 54:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was terrifying footage, yeah, of that.

• 54:37Steven Bartlett?

  Backed up along a single highway leading to Kiev. And when you see 64 kilometers of military, military vehicles and armored vehicles heading to one city, and then you hear that they failed to take that city, the question like, how?

• 54:52Speaker 01

  How?

• 54:55Speaker 01

  They captured, look, by the way, the Chernobyl nuclear plant where the disaster happened. All of that was occupied, that whole route was occupied. They occupied it and blockaded Kiev. How did we, people stepped up? People went to mobilize, yes, a huge number. On the first day, we, we left, left the country, headed toward western Ukraine, the western part of our country, they left. But a lot of people stayed, mobilized. And we, we brought up our troops and started fighting them. Day after day,

• 55:40Speaker 01

  we pushed back harder. They cut off our food, cut off our water, cut everything off completely. So that was their, that was their mission. They expected people to run and me. And certain people came to me and they said Kiev is cut off and Kiev is surrounded and the Russians are suggesting you hand over your powers and, and that's it, meaning Kiev must surrender. Naturally, I told those people where to go. Let's put it that way, out of my office.

• 56:20Speaker 01

  And then, as you know, leaders were calling, offering to evacuate before all the roads were blocked to get out of Kiev.

• 56:30Steven Bartlett?

  Who called you and asked you if you wanted to be evacuated? And did they make you an offer to evacuate you themselves?

• 56:37Speaker 01

  Biden.

• 56:38Steven Bartlett?

  Joe Biden asked you if you wanted to be evacuated?

• 56:40Speaker 01

  He was the first, the first.

• 56:42Steven Bartlett?

  What did he say?

• 56:43Speaker 01

  We are ready to help you evacuate because naturally, well, the invasion, Kiev is surrounded and you, we are ready to help you, you and your family. Likewise, many Europeans offered me that later, several Europeans. And people around me as well, let's say, people around me from our political circle also suggested, yeah, doing all that.

• 57:15Steven Bartlett?

  What did you say to Biden?

• 57:19Speaker 01

  I, I need ammunition, not a ride.

• 57:25Steven Bartlett?

  Did you tell your wife and your family to leave?

• 57:35Speaker 01

  They all...

• 57:41Speaker 01

  Nobody could go anywhere because that was a choice, that was the families and theirs. Naturally, they weren't in the office with me. Or the security detail took them and they went to, to, to another location, yeah. Well, because it was clear that, that there was just shoot, there was shooting right around the president's office and it was obvious how this could all end. And they asked me to go down to the bunker. Down there I had, it was very deep underground, built right inside my office. And in that bunker, I started working.

• 58:25Speaker 01

  That's where Biden called me. All around my office was secured by snipers, various guys of ours, special services. And I was in the bunker. Down there, I had communications and I spoke with all the leaders from there. That's where I first did a video call with the Europeans, pleading with them to unite, help Ukraine, not abandon us, and it worked, yeah. And I continued being there, going out into the street, talking to the people, showing myself, because there were so many, in those first few days, there were so, so many narratives.

• 59:06Speaker 01

  Russia was putting out a lot of information claiming I had fled. So basically, their whole idea was for people to run, and people would run if they saw that their leader abandoned them. Well, I mean, excuse me, if the leader abandoned the capital, well, then everyone has to survive on their own. So that was the whole story. They wanted me to run, and for them, for them, that was, yeah, obviously, that was their goal. I couldn't abandon Kiev, the office, the people. It's just impossible. That would be betrayal, betrayal of my human decency and the constitution of Ukraine. So I couldn't do that.

• 59:51Speaker 01

  Well, and that's it, that's it. And then, and they put, the Russians constantly pushed information that I wasn't there, then that I was spotted at the border, then that I was seen somewhere else, then in other countries. And all of that forced me to go out into the street all the time. Two, three times a day, I made a decision to constantly communicate, constantly say something to people, so people could see that I was in the office on Bankova, that I hadn't fled anywhere, hadn't run away. That was important for the military, too. Later on, with time, the military told me that it meant a lot to them. They stood strong, fought, defended, and liberated Kiev, because they believed they were liberating their capital,

• 1:00:34Speaker 01

  their home, and their president, meaning that he didn't abandon us, that he stayed with us. That's what they said. Well, it was my duty. I don't see it as some kind of very special choice of mine. I believe that this was the only way I could act.

• 1:00:56Steven Bartlett?

  Were you scared? Because if I, you have a nuclear power, one of the biggest militaries in the world, that have 64 miles of military equipment heading towards where you are, and you have them invading also by air, firing missiles into the cities that you're in and your family are in. You've made the decision you're going to stay. Were you scared?

• 1:01:25Speaker 01

  Scared? It's a different feeling. It's not about fear. It's about being, well, being laser focused on what needs to be done right now. We were working at such speed, I can't even tell you. I was just running around the office. I was running, making decisions, calling leaders. I just had no breaks. I had, I don't know, dozens of calls with leaders every single day, every hour, every second. I'd run outside, come back, talk to the military, come back. So I just didn't have time for that. I only realized it all about 20 days into the war.

• 1:02:07Speaker 01

  I just realized that something happened, something terrible, and, and the speed, you know, when the speed slightly, slightly began to shift, you started to realize, my God, well, this is war, this is, and it's without a doubt, a horrible war. Yeah, but at first, I, I was just working. Honestly, I have this trait. I don't even think it's just me. People have this trait to pull yourself together when, you know, shock. People around you are in shock, and you see it in their eyes. You see that they, you know, while they're in shock, and you realize that you need to act right now.

• 1:02:50Speaker 01

  Just act, act every second, draw conclusions. Kiev is blockaded, open it up, tell the military, open the road. We need food to get in, water, and so on. That is, that's what crisis management is. And in tough situations, basically, that's usually how I, I act in tough situations. And it's not like I'm, again, the bravest person. It's just when this kind of thing hits, I see people around me falling apart, you know, falling apart. Well, because it's a terrible war, I pull myself together completely. And only later, relate, once you've relaxed, you realize that a terrible tragedy occurred, a war, and,

• 1:03:34Speaker 01

  and it's just immense grief, pretty much like that.

• 1:03:42Steven Bartlett?

  When, when did things slow down enough for you to realize the severity and the impact of the tragedy that had taken place and the lives that were lost? Was there a particular moment?

• 1:03:52Speaker 01

  The first few days, I didn't sleep at all. The first few days, we just worked. I was sleeping about, yeah, 15 minutes, sleeping 15 minutes, because I had, my entire job was communication. I was talking in circles with every leader, deliver this over there, do that there. We set up flawless logistics for weapons. We were able, I was talking at night with Poland, with Andrzej Duda. There was a warehouse there. We were waking leaders up, meaning in the middle of the night. So it was, well, it's improper to say this today. You shouldn't treat people like that, but that's how it was.

• 1:04:33Speaker 01

  And about 20 days later into the war, everything started coming together into some steps that needed to be taken into some kind of, well, like the realization that, well, a war had begun. War, tragedy, and we have to move forward. And, well, that's about how it was. At first, it was crisis management, unblock, bring back troops, break the siege of Kiev, strike back at them. And definitely, the most crucial things were communications,

• 1:05:16Speaker 01

  food, water, the population. So many cities were cut off. It wasn't just the banking system, cards, making sure cards worked. I mean, we're a pretty digitalized country. So a lot of things were done. A lot of things were done in those first weeks. We were faster than the Russians. They broke through quickly toward Kiev. And once we stopped them at Kiev, we became much faster in the information space and so on. We shattered their whole, their whole wave of disinformation and just broke them down step by step, step by step,

• 1:05:59Speaker 01

  until they realized that they lost the capital to us. And, and then it became clear that we had to push harder. Our partners helped. Our partners realized that we wouldn't give up, and they started helping. That was definitely it. I remember how it happened.

• 1:06:24Steven Bartlett?

  It is often said that Vladimir Putin believed he would be able to take Kiev and Ukraine in just a number of days and actually captured Russian assault units, carried only three to 10 days of combat rations alongside formal dress uniforms meant for a victory parade, while state media accidentally released a pre-scheduled victory declaration on day three. Although Putin never, never publicly uttered the phrase three days or said a sort of timeframe himself, there are top Russian state media figures who openly bragged that the conquest would take only a few days. What is it that they underestimated about Ukraine?

• 1:07:04Speaker 01

  That's right, exactly what you started with today, that Ukraine is not Russia. That's his problem, refusing to recognize a separate nation, refusing to recognize a separate country. That's what did him in. He still doesn't understand that he looks at Ukraine as Russia, as part of Russia, that I'll march in with an army, we'll have hundreds of thousands of men, he'll slam his fist on the table, the president will run away, people will hide, and the Ukrainian flag will be swapped for the Russian flag, and that's it. Three days, we showed a military operation that was supposed to take three days. That's how it is. When our guys hit their tanks and stuff, we found parade uniforms. It's true, they found parade uniforms in their various military vehicles.

• 1:07:49Speaker 01

  They were literally marching to a parade. They specifically wanted to capture Kiev in three days and symbolically hold some, well, some kind of regular spectacle of pseudo-victory on Kraschchatek, on Independent Square. Well, I mean, that's the most important thing. He still doesn't understand and doesn't want to admit that this is a different nation, a different people.

• 1:08:17Steven Bartlett?

  Just 12 hours ago, Trump weighed in on what he believed happened with Kiev and why Vladimir Putin wasn't able to take Kiev. This is what he said, I'll throw it up on the screen for the listeners.

• 1:08:28Speaker 02

  But then it was supposed to be a very much, you know, very quick war. Right. And if you remember, the tanks going up the highway right into Kiev, had the general, who was obviously not a very good general, not made a right turn into farmland, which was soaked and soaking wet from the heaviest rain in 10 years, they say, he went right up into the mud, and it was like quicksand, and those tanks, so they got, I guess, I don't know if you call it lucky or not lucky, frankly, because it's been five years and Ukraine has lost a tremendous, you know, Ukraine has lost so many of its men. Number one, had they not taken the right turn onto dirt instead of going up a concrete highway, it would have ended in one day.

• 1:09:09Steven Bartlett?

  So Trump says that it was a Russian mistake, taking a wrong turn, that stopped this war being over in a day.

• 1:09:18Speaker 01

  No, they surrounded Kiev. They, they reached Kiev. They occupied towns on the way to Kiev. Uh, some they didn't occupy, towns fought back, they bypassed them. No, if someone took a wrong turn, I don't know what President Trump is talking about. It's, overall, it doesn't matter. With all the armor they lost near Kiev, Hostomel and so on. In other words, dozens, hundreds of armored vehicles burned. They just, they just trapped us. And then we started hammering them. And they didn't know what to do about it because some of their armor breached into Kiev, right into the capital. Armored vehicles drove through the streets and people burned it all down.

• 1:10:01Speaker 01

  They were especially shocked when they drove toward the capital and people were just throwing, burning debris. I mean, people were setting their armor on fire. It wasn't a matter of some general being an idiot. I believe the one who gave the order just didn't fully realize what was happening, didn't really get what it would take. And that's the main point. They needed around thousands, thousands. I think three to four hundred thousand to take Kiev. They needed twice as many men. Why? Because taking Kiev, what does taking Kiev mean? When you've taken those towns on the, on the way to Kiev,

• 1:10:46Speaker 01

  you have to leave troops behind to hold those towns. And that takes a huge number of people. It's a pretty large territory and you can avoid leaving many troops there only if there's no resistance. But if the people inside offer resistance, then you, you need an army to hold every town. That was their, uh, that was their mistake. They didn't estimate, right? Didn't estimate, uh, they didn't even realize there would be resistance. That's it. That was their main mistake. And then, then that's it, that's all.

• 1:11:26Speaker 01

  For example, if you take, uh, that operation back in 2014, when they, uh, went in and seized, uh, Crimea. Then pardon me, in Crimea, there are three million people. And Kiev had three million people. Dozens of people entered Crimea, at most hundreds. And here, hundreds of thousands. It's not about the operation. The difference is people defended it, stood up and fought. And the difference is no one fought back.

• 1:12:10Speaker 01

  Which is why I said, when dozens of people showed up here, where Trump is right, is that if Crimea hadn't been allowed to fall, there would be no war. On this, I agree with President Trump. Not because I'm blaming anyone, no. It's just that dozens of people went into Crimea, dozens. For a country like this, that's zero, that's nothing. We handled hundreds of thousands. Here, here's what happened. And if they'd been smacked in the head back then, uh, the Russians, those people wearing uniforms, meaning the Russians would have even said, hey, that's, they were already saying, that's not our army. Look at the uniforms. You can't tell it's the Russian army. And if they'd been hit back then, well, it wouldn't have happened.

• 1:12:54Speaker 01

  Well, at least there wouldn't have been a chance of a full-scale war. Why? Because Putin would have known there would be a blow, there would be a response. But what was his mistake here? First of all, when he saw how Crimea was seized so easily, so easily, that's why he thought he could seize Kiev just as easily. That was his experience.

• 1:13:18Steven Bartlett?

  And there's quite a famous battle that took place, um, to secure the Antonov Airport?

• 1:13:25Speaker 01

  Hostomel. Uh, Hostomel Antonov, that's what I just told you. That's a battle, there's a terrible battle in Hostomel. A brutal battle, the airport in Hostomel.

• 1:13:36Steven Bartlett?

  Can you explain that to me? Um, because I, I watched a documentary on this a couple of months ago and it feels like it was a really pivotal moment in defending Kiev. What were Russia trying to do? Where is this?

• 1:13:48Speaker 01

  Uh, when they land, for them, it was crucial to seize the airports. Hostomel is one of, uh, the airports where a massive landing force could, could land and so on. So here's how a takeover works. Block Kiev, capture the airports, basically. TV towers and so forth. In other words, seize information, logistics and cut off supplies of, uh, food, weapons and so on. That, that's basically the plan. And you need the leader to, to run because no leader means chaos, no chain of command. That's what they were doing. There was a terrible battle in Hostomel.

• 1:14:29Speaker 01

  Our people burned them there and they had very tough combat, uh, units. They couldn't, uh, land a large force there. They were destroyed. Uh, Hostomel was taken back, uh, our troops controlled it. That was one of the striking battles. A terrible battle, one of the most striking battles. So we did everything possible not to let them capture us and seize our logistics.

• 1:14:56Steven Bartlett?

  They, they flew in with paratroopers. So they parachuted people into that airport to try and claim it. And they originally did seize the airport.

• 1:15:06Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 1:15:08Steven Bartlett?

  And then there was an immediate counterattack where Ukrainian National Guard units and special forces.

• 1:15:13Speaker 01

  Yes, our National Guard.

• 1:15:16Steven Bartlett?

  You shelled and destroyed the runway yourself. You destroyed your own runway while air defense units, forces shot down several Russian transport helicopters. And from what I understood, that, you know, you took the airport back, they fought, you took it back.

• 1:15:30Speaker 01

  Yes, constant, that's right. Hostomel changed hands back and forth, that's how it was.

• 1:15:37Steven Bartlett?

  And if they had been able to seize that airport, how would that have changed the situation with Kiev, do you think?

• 1:15:43Speaker 01

  They could, likely, they could have, uh, they could have taken most of the capital. They could have broken through and captured it. That's true. That's true. That was an utterly heroic, uh, battle.

• 1:16:01Steven Bartlett?

  When you hear these stories, you realize that the future of Ukraine comes down to both heroism, but also several small battles. Some big battles, but also several small moments. When you reflect on that, that month, that moment, what are, is there any other sort of small moments that you think really defined the future of Ukraine in this regard?

• 1:16:26Speaker 01

  Well, uh, just so you know, um, today, um, places like Hostomel, then further up Mushun and several small towns around Kiev. There was a desperate battle for every single one of those towns. Why the National Guard? Because back then, the full army couldn't reach it yet. But the National Guard are, uh, internal troops. So they were there and brought in army units and so on. But nonetheless, that's why it was an utterly heroic battle. There was Bucha, you know, right? That they occupied it. It was terrible. It was a genocide, recognized by everyone. They buried hundreds of people.

• 1:17:10Speaker 01

  They tortured people, I mean tortured them. And hundreds of people were in a mass grave. They found the grave. There were, I believe, around 500 people. Half a thousand people in the grave like that, just imagine. Hands tied, tortured and then buried in, in, in pits. That's what was happening. People seeing all this. This looked nothing like a war. It looked, it was definitely pure looting when they occupied those towns on the way to Kiev and around Kiev. They, they collapsed, they just went into homes, just killed, took microwaves,

• 1:17:53Speaker 01

  some refrigerators, TVs. They acted like just, um, well, I can't even describe it. Well, they're just scavengers. And all these people, they tied their hands, tortured them.

• 1:18:10Speaker 01

  There was sexual violence, everything. And they buried people right in the yard, dumped people and so on. When we liberated those towns,

• 1:18:24Speaker 01

  there emerged this, you know, this kind of such hatred for the Russians. Right at that moment, not even at the moment when they started the full-scale war. Back then, nobody understood what it really was yet. People understood what this war was and what Putin did personally. When we found those mass graves of tortured adults, children. I mean, they didn't just kill them, they tortured and killed them.

• 1:18:54Steven Bartlett?

  Children?

• 1:18:55Speaker 01

  That's right. That's right. And then you realize that, I mean, just imagine what they went through.

• 1:19:05Speaker 01

  Well, there's no, no, you can't even compare what all these people lived through. Why Bucha is so horrifying and why the Russians immediately started saying, "It's a staged performance. We brought in journalists. The entire world press was there. They saw the bodies." I deliberately, when we liberated Bucha, I went there. Once I saw it, I said, "Bring every journalist here. Don't touch anything. Just bring the journalists. The whole world simply has to see this." And they brought the journalists. People were literally lying on the pavement, dead bodies lying everywhere. Kids, adults, elderly people, and so on.

• 1:19:46Speaker 01

  Witnesses who had stayed behind in Bucha, an old man, an elderly man. This was a very famous story there. It's one of those moments you're talking about. This elderly man, he survived the occupation of this town, the town of Bucha, during World War II.

• 1:20:05Speaker 01

  And he said, "The fascists never treated people like that." Yes, they were enemies, yes, occupiers, but they didn't torture people like that.

• 1:20:19Speaker 01

  This is absolute reality. And this, there are testimonies, there's evidence, there are criminal cases. And how after all this, we, it's just that it was already a long time ago, in the first year of the full-scale war. And sometimes people need to be reminded. When you see a mass today finding a grave in the US or in Britain, God forbid, with 500 tortured people, adults, kids, dogs, animals shot dead. I mean, they held hunting sprees there. From military vehicles, people were running, they were shooting, just hunting, playing games. The whole time, they were blockading Kiev, right up until the moment we liberated it. They, there were people in those villages and so on.

• 1:21:03Speaker 01

  They literally just played with people, like slavery. Imagine that. So how, how after this, can you listen to Putin? And how, how after this can you forgive? And that's why when President Trump says, "We need to find a compromise." And believe me, this, we live with this. A ceasefire.

• 1:21:26Speaker 01

  And sitting down at the negotiating table, there's a huge compromise. It is a huge compromise. Nobody can step into the shoes of all these people and their relatives whose children were tortured. Nobody, nobody wants to forgive them for anything. Nobody wants to forgive anything. And you can't force people to forgive. How can you force them? When their child was tortured, how do you forgive? Well, it's impossible. But that's why we say a ceasefire is the only step. Because people have such hatred, it's not going away. That hatred isn't going anywhere. It takes time and justice. And that's why it's a huge compromise.

• 1:22:08Speaker 01

  I've always really wanted, I've tried many times to tell the President of the United States, "Just understand us. This is a huge compromise." Just to hold the lines where we are.

• 1:22:21Speaker 01

  Well, look, that's what it feels like.

• 1:22:26Steven Bartlett?

  What was your hardest day through the last four years? What's the day that, you know, will live long in your, your brain, your mind, your memory?

• 1:22:39Speaker 01

  Bucha, what I just told you, that was a terrible day because I stood there. I had never seen people's bodies just scattered on the, on the street in my entire life. I had simply never seen anything like that in my life. And after that, everything changed completely. And once again, everything changed in life.

• 1:22:57Steven Bartlett?

  Everything has changed?

• 1:22:58Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 1:23:00Steven Bartlett?

  In what way?

• 1:23:03Speaker 01

  Well,

• 1:23:09Speaker 01

  you want, you want revenge.

• 1:23:20Speaker 01

  I had never had it where I couldn't forgive someone. And by and large, I think people make mistakes. This, this is about something else, evil like that, you know? A devil like that, just came in like that, did that to people, like, like chopped meat, butchered them, you know? I mean, that's what it looks like. And you just can't fathom how that's possible. And you want to find these people who aren't human. You want to find them and you want to, you just want to, you want to kill them. I mean, I had never wanted to kill a single human being. I had never felt anything like that.

• 1:24:06Speaker 01

  Pure revenge. With time, you can't forget that. And in moments like this, and our conversation brings back moments like that. And you have to be president and you have to calm down and be more, how to put it,

• 1:24:27Speaker 01

  diplomatic. Yeah, well, you can't forgive, just forgive everything like that and say, "Well, sorry, that's Putin, a powerful country. Let's just forget everything. Let's forgive everything. And somehow, well, we'll buy and sell gas or diesel or whatever." That's difficult. You understand?

• 1:24:52Steven Bartlett?

  Do you ever worry about how this experience has changed you?

• 1:24:58Steven Bartlett?

  Because you have been irreversibly changed by this. I can tell both from meeting you, looking at how you used to be three, four, five years ago. You've been irreversibly changed. And you're a father and you're a husband. And at some point, this war will be over, you know, God, God willing. But do you, do you ever think about how you're irreversibly changed?

• 1:25:24Speaker 01

  You can't bring it back. It's just, it's two different worlds. A reevaluation of values. My only dream is to end this war. I desperately want justice. I just really want, I know so many people had their hearts ripped out and there won't be a new heart. You have to give them at least something, so some trial, some justice, you know? At least some moral solace is an absolute must. You can't just leave it. Because that hole inside them, it won't heal. And there will be revenge, like I told you. And, and the revenge of so many people who lost everything,

• 1:26:05Speaker 01

  that naturally brings risks of some kind of ongoing military or combat actions, you know, and so forth. So it's not that simple. It doesn't just end like that. Why do we talk, talk about a just peace? Some people ask, "Well, what is a just peace?" Well, somehow, there has to be justice. The guilty must be punished.

• 1:26:30Speaker 01

  At the very least, you have to show a path that it will happen. Maybe not right now, but that it will happen. It's just totally impossible to simply forgive. And, and that, and you realize that you want to be with your kids, with your wife. Generally, you just want to end the war and get a little bit of a life.

• 1:26:51Steven Bartlett?

  But if, if I asked Alina, your wife, how you have changed

• 1:26:58Steven Bartlett?

  on a human level because of all of this, what might she say to me?

• 1:27:02Speaker 01

  I don't know. She'd definitely say, "I've changed a lot." Yeah, she tells me sometimes. Yeah, well.

• 1:27:11Steven Bartlett?

  What is she saying?

• 1:27:16Speaker 01

  Well, you know how it is.

• 1:27:20Speaker 01

  She focuses on different things, you know, different values. You just want somehow.

• 1:27:30Speaker 01

  You want to hold on to something, the people close to you. You really crave that warmth. You want to break through this.

• 1:27:47Speaker 01

  In a war, you fight and you're lonely, you know? In life before this war, you're definitely not lonely because you have friends, company, business, then maybe politics. But you're not lonely. I, I run a country and, and this is about something completely different right now. But when you hug your family, it's just like that. Well, it means, well, it means there are people who love you that matters.

• 1:28:19Steven Bartlett?

  Do you miss them?

• 1:28:20Speaker 01

  Very much, very much. Pointless sentimentality. Maybe that's it.

• 1:28:33Speaker 01

  That's how it is. Years have passed, you know? Between this and this, uh, years, years, years, I really, I miss them constantly. And it feels like that even when they're right next to me. It's just this habit. This habit of doing work and focusing exclusively on work.

• 1:29:00Speaker 01

  Even when they're near, I miss them sometimes, meaning.

• 1:29:06Speaker 01

  Well.

• 1:29:08Speaker 01

  Again, I don't like to complain and I'm not complaining. I chose my own path.

• 1:29:14Speaker 01

  And of course I didn't choose the war, but I chose this path. Well.

• 1:29:21Speaker 01

  This war, it fell on my, my lifetime and on the lifetime of our generation.

• 1:29:27Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 1:29:29Speaker 01

  Beautiful wife and beautiful kids.

• 1:29:34Steven Bartlett?

  Your daughter is, um.

• 1:29:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:29:36Steven Bartlett?

  Your daughter, she's not a child anymore.

• 1:29:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, so that.

• 1:29:39Steven Bartlett?

  They've all grown up in the last four, four years. She's a young lady now.

• 1:29:45Speaker 01

  Very much so. She really has, yeah, grown up, yes. And all the children of Ukraine, and it's true, I've said this, the children of Ukraine grew up during the war, totally true. They are all so grown up and it's so sad that childhood passed during a war. Well, but nonetheless, we believe in peace. Peace will prevail anyway, 100%. And my daughter and I are really great friends. She's grown up now. And well, her English is better.

• 1:30:20Steven Bartlett?

  Do you get to spend a lot of time with the kids?

• 1:30:23Speaker 01

  When there's time, I, I try to be with them, to call, we talk. These days, there are plenty of options. We talk online, we talk in different ways. That's how it is.

• 1:30:33Steven Bartlett?

  Is it possible, you know, uh, uh, gosh. I, um, I've spent, since I was 18 years old, been running businesses and, you know, running a startup, I, you know, I thought, you know, was a, was, was a challenge, but it is incomparable from, you know, and I say this because I think about how that pulled me away from the people in my life, my relationships, being so obsessed with business. But it's just totally incomparable to think about what that must be like to try and maintain those important relationships, especially with children. When your country is being invaded and you are the leader of that country. I, I almost can't fathom how you can find moments of presence with them, like true presence. I understand how one might be able to like fake presence for a short period of time,

• 1:31:18Steven Bartlett?

  but true sort of intellectual presence. Is it, is it possible?

• 1:31:26Speaker 01

  Differently, but differently now, absolutely. But yes, that presence matters. And those moments you mentioned, you've been in business since you were 18. And some I imagine of your relationships become secondary probably while business always consumes your whole life. Well, at least it was that way for me. And this reevaluation from this war and these images and these horrific moments definitely shows me that business is secondary. Everything is secondary. These people right here. That's what matters most. Now that you can't get back. These years slip away and in these intense moments, you remember.

• 1:32:12Speaker 01

  These people, it's important.

• 1:32:17Steven Bartlett?

  And your wife, Alina, has been your rock through it all, I've heard you say. She's been your stability throughout all of this, all of these crazy, crazy times.

• 1:32:28Speaker 01

  Well, we support each other. That's true. We, um, we, I think that I have a very, um, smart wife and she is so.

• 1:32:45Speaker 01

  Real, we have real, we have real feelings. We, we have love and respect. I think that's very important, um, to respect each other. And you know, how should I put it? People should find each other interesting. I think that's the most important thing. People need to find each other interesting. Yeah, and we find each other very interesting. We feel good. We feel very good.

• 1:33:10Steven Bartlett?

  The other, um, very important woman in your life, your parents are still here, but your mother.

• 1:33:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:33:16Steven Bartlett?

  I heard she calls you, uh, almost every day, still.

• 1:33:19Speaker 01

  Every single day.

• 1:33:21Steven Bartlett?

  Every day, every single day.

• 1:33:23Speaker 01

  That's right, every day.

• 1:33:24Steven Bartlett?

  Really? Where does she, she's living in Ukraine still?

• 1:33:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:33:26Steven Bartlett?

  When your mother calls you, what does she say every day? What is she asking you?

• 1:33:31Speaker 01

  Her first question is, did, did you actually pick up?

• 1:33:38Speaker 01

  She's already like that because I saw often she, I look, God, 12 missed calls. Mom, I'm working. I tell her, 12 calls, how can you call someone so many times? And she keeps dialing. She'll call you all day long until I pick up. So we make sure to speak once a day. She asks how I'm feeling.

• 1:34:00Steven Bartlett?

  And is she worried about you?

• 1:34:01Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. How are you? How are you feeling? How are the kids? Tell me, right? When is, um, Putin going to, uh, end the war? And I say, Mom, we're doing everything we can.

• 1:34:24Steven Bartlett?

  And as things stand at the moment, for the people don't understand what's actually going on in the ground, on the ground in Ukraine, where the Russian troops currently are, what life is like on a day-to-day basis, if you're a Ukrainian. Can you explain to me which parts of Ukraine are currently occupied and generally what life is like for Ukrainians at the moment?

• 1:34:47Speaker 01

  Occupied.

• 1:34:50Speaker 01

  Occupied was Crimea. Then they took the Azov. That's an inland, uh, sea of ours. And that's our sea. They made it, yes, they turned it into an inland sea. They took Mariupol. They took Mariupol. They took Berdyansk, all of the Azov. Kerch is a city on the Black Sea. They made it so we can't get out. Next day, Oleshki is where right now, uh, people and children are trapped without food, without anything, they won't let them through. Right now, we are working to unblock it.

• 1:35:32Speaker 01

  There were 2,500 people left. Kherson, we fought to take back the major city of Kherson. We reclaimed it. Uh, Kherson is split by the Dnipro River. Our people live on one bank, the enemy is on the other bank. And that's why they shell out Kherson and Zaporizhzhya, she's also under, under our control. So they took Crimea, Donetsk region, uh, Luhansk region. They couldn't take like, uh, Nikolaev, Kherson, this part, this part is ours. So upside, the map is just upside down.

• 1:36:12Speaker 01

  From Kharkiv here, this is what they call Luhansk Oblast, right here. This is our Kramatorsk, like this, right here. They took Yenakiya, they took Mativka, Ponetsk Oblast, right here. Zaporizhzhia is ours. So basically, people can see that all of this is, all of this is,

• 1:36:36Speaker 01

  this is roughly, roughly, sorry, I'm not very good at drawing.

• 1:36:43Speaker 01

  All of this is, all of this is roughly eighteen, eighteen to nineteen percent of our territory. That's roughly, roughly it, roughly. Because their maps are one thing, to be honest, they sell one story to the people. We have different maps, we believe we're right. Well, naturally, they have their own, their own approach to talking with society and presenting information, but roughly, that's what it is.

• 1:37:16Steven Bartlett?

  And they're attacking via missiles and drones, other parts of Ukraine, constantly, right?

• 1:37:23Speaker 01

  Completely, yes, yes. See, they're focused on, well, honestly, you could point everywhere here, they've already started today. Right here, they killed people in Lutsk, that's the western part of our country. Right here, a missile struck, and they're hitting Kyiv, Piluchy, right here. We went with the British Secretary, saw twenty-three people killed. Gietomir is under constant shelling.

• 1:37:51Speaker 01

  Well, Rivne has fewer strikes. Lviv, this part, fewer strikes here. This part, to be honest, all of this part is far away from the line of occupation, from the contact line, and from the Russian Federation. So obviously, the distance is great, which is why there are no massive strikes there. Yes, well, that's roughly it.

• 1:38:19Steven Bartlett?

  What are they trying to accomplish?

• 1:38:21Speaker 01

  Odessa is being shelled, Difaliev. What do they want? To pull out of, out of the east of our country, so that Putin, and the east is, here's what he wants. He wants, basically, he wants to take the city of Zaporizhzhia, but he can't. That's a target for him. Zaporizhzhia and Kherson and Mykolaiv, all targets, but he doesn't say that. He doesn't say it, but after all, we liberated those cities. We liberated Kherson, and...

• 1:38:51Steven Bartlett?

  But have you heard directly from them?

• 1:38:53Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:38:54Steven Bartlett?

  As to what their demands are, what they say that they want to, to stop launching missiles?

• 1:38:59Speaker 01

  Yes, they basically say, right here, this entire piece.

• 1:39:06Steven Bartlett?

  They want to take pretty much the, the east of Ukraine?

• 1:39:08Speaker 01

  They want, yes, the east. That means they want Sloviansk, well, these are key, Sloviansk, Kramatorsk, Druzhkivka, and that leads right out into the Dnipro-Petrovsk region, into Pavlohrad, Dnipro-Petrovsk. These are the most, Krevi Irich is my hometown. Nikopol is an industrial hub, an engineering hub, a manufacturing hub. It's the economy of our country. And so it's very dangerous, because if you surrender this part to them, and this is, this is heavily reinforced defense of our nation, right here.

• 1:39:48Speaker 01

  Like this. And if we hand these cities of ours over to them, then the risk is huge. If he wants to keep going, he could seize a huge number of our cities, if he pushes further. And the risk is real, nobody guarantees anything, you understand? Everyone talks about security guarantees, and we're open, we're completely open to that. We say, well, okay, security guarantees, let's do NATO. Well, NATO, you know, the Russians, well, again, they keep sending signals to the Russians, because you have to give security guarantees. On top of that, like I told you, the biggest compromise with so many dead, the biggest compromise we're already making is a ceasefire. Let's just stop this

• 1:40:32Speaker 01

  war. But they want us to pull out even further. And if we pull out, where are the security guarantees? Aside from the fact that it's unfair.

• 1:40:41Steven Bartlett?

  You know, you talked about the barbaric nature of how they've treated Ukrainians. Are you at all concerned that they might escalate using more horrific weapons, like nuclear weapons, at any point? Has that ever crossed your mind?

• 1:40:59Speaker 01

  Well, it crosses everyone's mind after what they've done, that they might do something worse. But as of today, well, I don't think they'll take the risk of using nuclear weapons, because then I think they won't, definitely, I'm sure, they won't have any allies left, including countries like America, China. Well, excuse me, but that, that's far too dangerous, even for nuclear powers. That means if one country can do it, then if there's a conflict somewhere else, on another continent, in another theater, I don't know, the Middle East, whatever. That means if a nuclear weapon is used once, it might be used a second and a third time. So I don't think Putin

• 1:41:40Speaker 01

  will risk nuclear weapons. But then again, we're dealing with, look, we're dealing with a man and with a system that, until the end of his days, will hold on to him and he to it. Because only when his life ends, will he leave the Kremlin and hand over, well, physically hand over, naturally transfer power. I'm more than certain of that.

• 1:42:13Steven Bartlett?

  Regarding the, the current situation this week with, with Trump, with Russia, and this deal that's been done, from my understanding, because there's an energy crisis globally, Trump has now done a deal with Russia for diesel. He then asked you not to attack any energy infrastructure in Russia.

• 1:42:32Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:42:32Steven Bartlett?

  Um, there's a, there's a video that I actually have here of him describing this, which a lot of people have, have now seen. I'll play it.

• 1:42:40Speaker 02

  Well, I look at it differently. Zelensky could have settled this war many times. He chooses not to. Very difficult. It's a war that should have never been started. If I were president, if the election weren't rigged, I would have been president, and that war would have never started. We said you could do whatever you want to Russia, don't hit the refineries, because that's a world problem that's caused. And he wants to make problems for the world. He wants to make problems for our farmers, our ranches, with diesel fuel, because Russia supplies a large portion of the diesel fuel throughout the world. And we told him, do whatever you want, but don't hit the diesel fuel, because there's a big problem, big shortage. And what does he do? He goes and hits the diesel

• 1:43:23Speaker 02

  fuel. Do what you want, don't hit refineries. There's plenty of targets. And he went out and he hit, and he's not going to affect our farmers, and he's not going to affect our ranches, and he's not going to affect the rest of the world. So we, he's better damn well stopped.

• 1:43:39Steven Bartlett?

  And in that, he says that he thinks the Ukraine needs a new president.

• 1:43:43Speaker 01

  No. First of all, diesel exports have no impact. The volume of diesel exports is so negligible from Russia, that it has zero impact on prices in the United States of America. That is totally false information. That's first. Second, it makes no sense for us to strike Russia's energy infrastructure. We retaliate because they strike our energy infrastructure. We've spoken a lot about this. The Russians hit our energy grid, our people live without power. We don't have oil, gas, diesel, and so on. That hurts them. What hurts us is electricity. They hit our electricity.

• 1:44:25Speaker 01

  We strike back at their diesel. They make money on diesel and spend it on weapons. My offer, excuse me, but I don't need this. I've always told President Trump, broker and energy ceasefire, at least on energy. At least, let's give people light, and good for the Russians. They'll sell their oil if they want to, if that's what you need. But President Trump can't reach an agreement with Putin on this. Putin refuses him an energy ceasefire. And so the president decided to pin this problem, not on Putin, but on me, explaining to his people that because of this, diesel prices in America are going up. That is completely untrue. And I don't understand. I have a good

• 1:45:10Speaker 01

  relationship with him, with Trump. And I think it's wrong and unacceptable that he pins Russia's aggression and Russia's killings on me. He is shifting the context, and that's not fair. And that's why I honestly said, that's unfair. Ceasefire. He says, it's not, they can't work it out. Well, if you can't work it out, but you need diesel? Though again, I think this is just deflecting the focus away from Iran, from what's happening in the Middle East. The entire volume is blocked over there. That's exactly where nothing is working out. Energy, the Strait of Hormuz is blocked. That's the root of the problem. But everything gets shifted onto us, and I made the target as

• 1:45:52Speaker 01

  the leader of our country. So I said, okay, you can't force Putin to stop the war and make an energy truce. Give me air defense missiles. I won't fire at anyone. I'll protect our energy sector. So where am I being unfair? In what way? I asked him, give us missiles, not for free. Again, not even for free. Europeans are funding this, funding all of it. There's an agreement, but he, but they won't give them to us. They say we can't. They give and have given everything to the Middle East. Look, it's just kind of, well, it's just like, like, well, it's unfair.

• 1:46:35Speaker 01

  To the Middle East, Patriot missiles, with Putin, a diesel deal. I'm expected not to respond to an energy attack on, inside Ukraine. And diesel prices are rising in America because of, but it's unfair. And you need a different president. Well, diesel prices, I guarantee you a hundred percent, diesel prices don't depend on the volume that Russia sells. They just don't.

• 1:47:05Steven Bartlett?

  And about seventy-six percent of Ukrainians say they wouldn't want an election now, according to some recent surveys as well. My last question to you, Mr. President, is

• 1:47:14Steven Bartlett?

  is there a realistic path to the end of this war? And what does that look like?

• 1:47:21Steven Bartlett?

  A realistic path?

• 1:47:23Speaker 01

  Trump can bring Putin to the negotiating table very easily.

• 1:47:31Speaker 01

  Because he needs to, the way he talks about me, President Trump, he needs to adopt that kind of rhetoric about Putin.

• 1:47:40Steven Bartlett?

  Why do you think he's not?

• 1:47:42Speaker 01

  I don't know. Honestly, I don't know. He's got sanctions on his desk. It wasn't him voting. Congress voted for strong sanctions. He can do it. He could, I don't know why. Maybe they have a special relationship. Maybe something else. I can't tell you. I don't know everything. I can only guess some economic deals and so on. An old rela-, I don't know. I don't want to.

• 1:48:05Steven Bartlett?

  Well, the midterms are coming up and I think you might be a little bit concerned about energy prices in America, more so than maybe Ukraine.

• 1:48:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, uh, look. Diesel prices, I give you a 100%. Diesel prices don't depend on the volume Russia sells. They don't. Americans export energy resources. Americans' energy exports aren't banned for Americans. American companies export. It's interesting. Why do American companies export energy? Well, because how can the President of the United States ban private sector exports? Well, I don't think he can. And why would he? It sells and money comes in. Well, just, well, you know how.

• 1:49:02Speaker 01

  Life, time, you know, all secrets, all mysteries always come to light. It just takes time. Time is definitely on the side of those who are open and ready for honest dialogue and fight. Yes, which means time will be on our side.

• 1:49:25Steven Bartlett?

  What are your last words?

• 1:49:28Steven Bartlett?

  To our audience, you know?

• 1:49:29Speaker 01

  I hope that it's not last words.

• 1:49:32Steven Bartlett?

  Last words for today.

• 1:49:33Speaker 01

  I have some time in my life.

• 1:49:36Steven Bartlett?

  Last words today, you know, half of our audience are in America.

• 1:49:38Speaker 01

  I wish America, which finds itself in a very tough situation. I believe because the world has gone crazy. What's happening with the Russians, with Iran? The fact that people want blood, people want wars. I wish America would stay a great nation, be strong, be peaceful, have the chance. Someone works, someone wants to be home with the kids, pray, have a family, a family dinner. I wish America tranquility, peace, and we're grateful for everything America has done for Ukraine. We won't forget this.

• 1:50:27Steven Bartlett?

  President, thank you so much.

• 1:50:29Speaker 01

  Thank you so much.

• 1:50:30Steven Bartlett?

  I know you've had a really rough weekend. It's been very tough. So I really appreciate you taking the time. I've had everything going on with Starlink and the internet and all the challenges, so.

• 1:50:38Speaker 01

  Normal.

• 1:50:40Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 1:50:40Speaker 01

  Thank you so much.

• 1:50:41Steven Bartlett?

  And we really do wish you the best. We really wish you the best, okay?

• 1:50:44Speaker 01

  Yes, and I was happy to hear, to see you and to have a dialogue. We had good dialogue, I think. I think we spoke very good. So thanks so much.

• 1:50:53Steven Bartlett?

  Thank you so much.

• 1:50:54Speaker 01

  All the best.

• 1:50:54Steven Bartlett?

  Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you so much.

• 1:51:21Steven Bartlett?

  As a founder building a business when I was in my early twenties, I think I always had a deep sense of imposter syndrome because there was something that I wasn't good at. And that thing was finances. Finance and understanding your financial position as a small business is the great enabler of all of your dreams. I was running from it until I discovered a platform called Zero. Zero is an accounting and financial management platform specifically for small businesses. And it brings accounting, payments, payroll and analytics all into one place, even for people that don't love doing finances. Zero wants to do the financial work for you. But its core ambition is to go beyond keeping the financial record because Zero wants to help you understand what's happening in your business. And increasingly, and this is maybe the most important thing, is help you make decisions.

• 1:52:06Steven Bartlett?

  Finally, we have a partner who can enable us in a simple way for those people that are both left brain or right brain and enable our dreams. You can learn more about Zero by going to zero.com. Thank you to Zero. Thank you for sponsoring this podcast, but also thank you for helping me to scale my business as somebody that, quite frankly, has never loved finances that much.