How to Let Them Go with Anna Kai

If you're ready for a master class in how to let someone go, presenting: Anna Kai. We loved having her on to discuss why we get hooked on people who aren't good for us, when you should know someone isn't going to commit, and how to cut off these relationships/situationships and move on. We also discuss her experience going on 100 first dates before meeting her husband, why she doesn't believe in love at first sight (but what she DOES believe in that's more important), the myth of closure, and more. Before Anna joins us, we're catching up on Rayna's move and Ashley's new travel goal, and breaking down two recent Internet trends – "We listen and we don't judge" and "women in male fields" (oh we have thoughts). Enjoy! Follow Anna on Instagram @maybeboth and Tiktok @maybeboth, listen to her podcast Brutally Anna, and check out her website maybeboth.com. Follow us on Instagram @girlsgottaeatpodcast, Ashley @ashhess, and Rayna @rayna.greenberg. Visit girlsgottaeat.com for tour dates, merchandise, and more. Thank you to our partners this week: Skims: Shop Skims Holiday Shop at https://skims.com. Hinge: Download Hinge Today. Aura Frames: Get $35 off Aura's Carver Mat Frames at https://auraframes.com with code GGE. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Why would you go back to the man who hurt you and ask him to heal you?

• 0:21Ashley Hesseltine?

  This podcast is a Dear Media production. Hi guys. Hi guys. Welcome back from their episode of Girls Gotta Eat. Welcome back. So close to Christmas. It's my favorite holiday. No, second favorite holiday. Favorite holiday, Thanksgiving.

• 0:37Ashley Hesseltine?

  You know what would be funny? We say Thanksgiving every episode forever.

• 0:42Ashley Hesseltine?

  Right up there with fear, nothing. Also Thanksgiving.

• 0:46Ashley Hesseltine?

  Thank you guys for coming out to the New York shows. We are recording this before that, but sure, they were incredible. We love you guys and we always love performing there. Our seventh annual New York City holiday shows. We just had them this weekend, so thank you guys for coming out. Thank you to the New York Giants Drumline, which we've had for three years now. Their, so their official drumline in New York. They were incredible and we have Boston this weekend, final shows. If you're not coming to Boston and you can, you are gonna be sorry. It's a threat. These are gonna be unreal. Really. It's, it's one of our favorite places, maybe our favorite theater that we've ever performed in. No, like to add to where there will be so special. Yeah, like the entertainers we have still always in awe that we are able to get them and get them even bigger and better than before.

• 1:31Ashley Hesseltine?

  And it's just gonna be unbelievable, all the bells and whistles. So we will see you guys, probably still a few tickets left to the late Friday show, this Friday, the 20th, and you can get tickets at girlsgottaeat.com, get the Vibes Only Vibes bracelets, and we will see you there. Yeah, we're really excited to do this. All right, we're gonna thank our partners and jump right in. Thanks to Hinge, download Hinge today.

• 1:53Rayna Greenberg?

  I knew you were gonna say it like that.

• 1:54Ashley Hesseltine?

  The exact.

• 1:55Rayna Greenberg?

  I actually prepared. I was like, not gonna laugh.

• 1:59Ashley Hesseltine?

  You said it, download it today.

• 2:00Rayna Greenberg?

  I'm normally it's just like.

• 2:02Ashley Hesseltine?

  Do this thing and take this.

• 2:04Rayna Greenberg?

  It's I'm not, I'm never expecting it to be three words.

• 2:06Ashley Hesseltine?

  I thought you might say, download hinge today. You said it as in you do you. Also, thanks to Skims, shop Skims, holiday shop at skims.com and Aura Frames. Get $35 off Aura's Carver Matte Frames at auraframes.com with code GGE.

• 2:22Rayna Greenberg?

  So I'm crawling out of a hole currently. I have been like only in like moving renovation.

• 2:27Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 2:27Rayna Greenberg?

  Nothing else. I can't talk about anything else. I don't think about it yet. So I'm in the house.

• 2:31Ashley Hesseltine?

  In the house.

• 2:32Rayna Greenberg?

  I'm in the house and I'm not bored. Task rabbits around the clock. I'm just like, but I moved out on Friday. Flat rate moving and I love them and they're great and they've always taken like care of me. And then I moved into the house on Saturday and you've been over a bunch. You're the only person actually.

• 2:46Ashley Hesseltine?

  Lisa came over last night.

• 2:47Rayna Greenberg?

  Oh yeah, Lisa came over for a minute and then just security system, wifi, task rabbits. I mean, I broke down like a hundred boxes in.

• 2:55Ashley Hesseltine?

  Oh my god.

• 2:56Rayna Greenberg?

  I'm an animal.

• 2:57Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, you're running on adrenaline, like something like you've just been nonstop.

• 3:02Rayna Greenberg?

  I can't sleep. I get up at five in the morning and I'm just like, I have an Excel spreadsheet with four different tabs and it's just like to buy, to do, to ask the contractor. Like I just have so much stuff, but I feel like a light at the end of the tunnel. I can like be a person again. It's been a lot.

• 3:15Ashley Hesseltine?

  Well, congrats. The house is unreal.

• 3:17Rayna Greenberg?

  Thank you.

• 3:18Ashley Hesseltine?

  I don't know what's gonna happen with me because I am in that house and I'm like, oh, I want this house. Like I want to love my house this much. You know I love my house. I don't own it. Different, there's different, different vibes over here, but like I just, it's gonna be your dream home. And like I want my dream home. Like everybody wants their dream home, you know, and it's just like you're getting, getting to make it exactly how you want it. Like it was already so stunning to begin with, but now just like being in there and how bright and light and it's like perfect. Like I hate my kitchen with such a deep passion and my bathroom and I love my house and so many things about it. But also I don't own it. So it's like I, I got, I get what I get. But you know, I just want to love it like that. And I just, I've told you, like, this is, I feel like the most work you're gonna put into something that will be the greatest.

• 4:02Ashley Hesseltine?

  Payoff because it is so much stress and frustration and it's been such a long process. There's manual labor and there's managing all these people coming in and out and it's like, there's nothing worse than moving. I mean, this is what people say. It's one of the most stressful life moments. And on top of a renovation and all the things you've dealt with, you didn't have toilets, you didn't have heat, like all this stuff and it's gonna be so worth it. Like the payoff is so massive.

• 4:26Rayna Greenberg?

  It just, it feels really good. I'm really proud of it. I'm very lucky. I'll talk about it in further episodes because I know you guys like before and after pics, but I renovated the house and I'm just, I'm so lucky. The girl that found me, my contractor is a good friend of mine. My contractor is amazing. Like he's just, he's incredible. We talk all day, every day. That's my best friend.

• 4:42Ashley Hesseltine?

  I'll remember to see your wedding.

• 4:45Ashley Hesseltine?

  Apparently he's your best friend, you guys. Run the tape.

• 4:47Rayna Greenberg?

  I was just talking about this.

• 4:52Rayna Greenberg?

  I just, I mean, it's made all the difference in the world having somebody I can like depend on that answers their phone seven days a week. And like, we've just collaborated.

• 4:58Ashley Hesseltine?

  This is so funny. Like it's really like you're talking about your man. I just love having someone to depend on and you know, he's really just always there for me. Always answers my calls and he never does text me back.

• 5:08Rayna Greenberg?

  Literally this morning I was like calling you in a second and just I was, I hit send and my phone rang. I was just, this is the dream relationship and he just like comes over and does stuff for me.

• 5:16Ashley Hesseltine?

  Listen, I'm gonna keep it in the box, but I have feelings on how I think this is all gonna play out. And you know, I don't want to jinx anything, but I've been telling everybody.

• 5:25Ashley Hesseltine?

  I've been telling all of our friends. Like I'm just like, here's what I think, you know, so we'll see you guys.

• 5:30Rayna Greenberg?

  I'll tell you more about the companies and the contractors and all that when I finally get photos for you guys. But I'm in, I'm excited and now I have to pack to leave town for two weeks.

• 5:38Ashley Hesseltine?

  Hmm. Yeah. Don't know how you're gonna do it.

• 5:40Rayna Greenberg?

  Actually, so I never unpacked from London from visiting my family. And so I think I really am just gonna stick a couple of live show outfits in that suitcase.

• 5:47Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 5:47Rayna Greenberg?

  And that's it.

• 5:48Ashley Hesseltine?

  Well, speaking of traveling, I had a big change I want to run by you. So you probably know the whole time we've traveled together for six years, I always travel in leggings. I always travel in my Align leggings, Lululemon.

• 5:59Rayna Greenberg?

  What'd you do?

• 6:00Ashley Hesseltine?

  I'm thinking of traveling in sweats.

• 6:02Rayna Greenberg?

  Oh.

• 6:03Ashley Hesseltine?

  Actually, I can't really scare you.

• 6:04Rayna Greenberg?

  What'd you think of jeans?

• 6:06Ashley Hesseltine?

  Jeans?

• 6:09Rayna Greenberg?

  What do you mean? You like the sweats? What do you mean?

• 6:12Ashley Hesseltine?

  Listen, I'm not of the mindset of like, can you dress up to fly like the olden days?

• 6:16Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah.

• 6:16Ashley Hesseltine?

  But like, I feel. Sloppier in sweatpants, it's my own shit. Their sweatsuits are what everybody wears. Most popular podcasts in the world, that's what she podcasted. Like, I'm not saying other people look sloppy, something about it, I'm like, because I wear sweatpants around the house and I don't want to get dressed. And like, what I usually wear are like leggings and a hoodie, like I have my whole look, but like, I've been seeing people in the airport, I feel like I want to feel like that.

• 6:42Rayna Greenberg?

  A sweat set?

• 6:43Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah. Or like that Spanx that we have, just not confined leggings, like I want to be loose fitting sweat vibe.

• 6:50Rayna Greenberg?

  I'm, I'm really for it. What I'm liking is sweatpants and like these little baby aloe teas that I've been like wearing matching sweatpants with all the time. I love it, it kind of looks sexy and like I just, I like, Brittany and I were in Paris and she wore a sweat set to, I don't remember the hotel next door to the Ritz Carlton, it's essentially as fancy as the Ritz Carlton. We went and had dinner in her sweat set in Paris.

• 7:11Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay, so Brittany, I think it's her body that can pull it off. And sometimes I see these girls in the airport or in the lounge or whatever, like, what does not look good on me is sweatpants and a sweatshirt that is not cropped. I, I don't have the curves or the butt or something like, it doesn't work with my body, so I need it to be cropped at my waist, like, I can't do baggy sweatshirt that covers up the waistband and then there's baggy sweatpants underneath. I've tried it, it doesn't work for me. So that's where I struggle.

• 7:41Rayna Greenberg?

  I have been wanting to dress like that for a long time. I think it's so sexy and other people, Brittany's so sexy, but like, it's because she's prettier than me. You know, she's, always looking at her body, like, it's just, people are like, with that face, who even cares if you have a body? And I'm short too, like, the tapered sweatpants on me with a baggy sweatshirt, my legs will look, they're one foot long.

• 8:01Ashley Hesseltine?

  But see, on me, a sweat pant never bunches up at the bottom. It's a high water. Like, you know, I'm never gonna have that look.

• 8:08Rayna Greenberg?

  Like a tapered?

• 8:09Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay, it'll be a. The taper just hits the ankle. I told you years ago, because you were out here like, why is no one hitting me in the airport? I'm like, you're quarter zip.

• 8:20Ashley Hesseltine?

  Got you into a cropped quarter zip, which I like a cropped, anything cropped. And I don't mean my stomach's out, it's just hitting at the waist, not so baggy. So anyway, that's my fashion update.

• 8:31Rayna Greenberg?

  I mean, that's a good fashion for everyone, it's short. I'm so short. It's just like, when you have something like hangs below your butt, you look shorter.

• 8:38Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, I know, you and I are just not made for this style, but I'm gonna try it out. I wanna be comfier.

• 8:44Rayna Greenberg?

  I've been.

• 8:45Ashley Hesseltine?

  The leggings are so comfy, but you know what I mean?

• 8:46Rayna Greenberg?

  No, no.

• 8:46Ashley Hesseltine?

  Even comfier.

• 8:47Rayna Greenberg?

  No.

• 8:47Ashley Hesseltine?

  On long sleeves.

• 8:48Rayna Greenberg?

  I don't like that constriction. I don't like it.

• 8:51Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, I mean, the aligns are like buttery soft. I wish this was an ad, but it's not. But that's the exclusively legging that I wear for everything. I have so many pairs, but it's just like, to be in a sweatpants on a plane? Watch me, catch me, catch me on that plane in the sweatpants. Read people's texts.

• 9:04Rayna Greenberg?

  I've been looking for our sweat set since that night in Paris with Brittany that like looks good on me. And it's just like, no.

• 9:11Ashley Hesseltine?

  The Spanx one we have is good.

• 9:12Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah.

• 9:13Ashley Hesseltine?

  I got stopped in the coffee shop. This woman was like, what's your set? And I go, it's Spanx. And she goes, what? I said, do you know Spanx? She goes, yeah. And then we had this weird standoff and I'm like, oh, they make other clothes. And she was like, oh, okay. Like, she thought I was not okay. And then I was like, you gotta feel it. And I'm like, I felt really weird in the moment to go, feel it.

• 9:36Rayna Greenberg?

  Feel it, bitch. No, every time somebody comments on that set from Spanx, I'm like, you gotta touch it.

• 9:40Ashley Hesseltine?

  Touch it.

• 9:40Rayna Greenberg?

  What's it called?

• 9:41Ashley Hesseltine?

  Air.

• 9:41Rayna Greenberg?

  Oh, the air.

• 9:42Ashley Hesseltine?

  Air. No, just air, it's air. Air performance air, something. They're not that sponsor either.

• 9:48Rayna Greenberg?

  I'm obsessed, I'm obsessed with it. I love it.

• 9:51Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay, we have a couple of fun topics to discuss today.

• 9:54Rayna Greenberg?

  I'm really excited.

• 9:55Ashley Hesseltine?

  We're each gonna take the lead on, on them.

• 9:58Rayna Greenberg?

  And they're both great for today's episode, because we're talking about, we talk about relationships in every episode.

• 10:02Ashley Hesseltine?

  But, yeah. We have Anna Kai on today, and we loved her. When she came to Rina's to record, we talked shit with her for an hour before we even went into the studio. So, we love it. Okay, so I'm gonna talk to you guys about the we listen and we don't judge trend. And this is on TikTok, I'm sure it's made its way over to Instagram. But I like this article that The Cut put out, that the headline is, are straight couples okay? And so, I'll tell you about this trend, you may or may not have seen it. But basically, the we listen and we don't judge trend is made with mostly couples. It says you can also make them with siblings, friends, or just about any other relationship you don't mind destroying.

• 10:35Rayna Greenberg?

  I love that.

• 10:36Ashley Hesseltine?

  One person divulges a secret to their partner and before anyone can pick a fight or react, both chant, often in monotone, "We listen and we don't judge," the way a preschool classroom might recite the Golden Rule or the Pledge of Allegiance. Then the other side gets a turn. And I mean, there's been results, like people are like, "This ruined my relationship." I mean, they, they definitely vary in tone, but I hate them all, mostly.

• 11:02Rayna Greenberg?

  So, the first time this came across my desk was Kat Stikler, she didn't want her mom. And I didn't know this was like a couples thing at first. And one sentence in, I was already, I don't want to say cringe, because I think she's a great relationship with her mom and her daughter. I think it's always like sweet and cute, but like, her mom is talking about how like, when guys text Kat, her mom goes and deletes the texts. And her mom's like hysterically laughing, right? Kat's like, "Wait, what?" And I was like, "This feels kind of mean." That feels like kind of a mean thing to do to your kid, but they both seem in on it together. They both seem like in on the joke. Obviously, like, she created the video after the fact. She could have cut it, but like, even watching a mother and daughter, I was like, "Oh, this feels mean."

• 11:41Ashley Hesseltine?

  Now that you, I have not seen any parent-kid relationship ones, but I think a funny trend would be like, admitting stuff to your parents that you did when you were younger. If you have the right parent, it would not fly with your mom.

• 11:50Rayna Greenberg?

  Fuck no.

• 11:51Ashley Hesseltine?

  But like, one of the shows, when I told my parents who were in the audience that one of my friends had anal in their closet in high school, it was hilarious. And, but my parents are cool. And like, that trend would really fly, but I, listen, I don't care what people do. I love other people's drama, but this, I just don't appreciate it. I have a visceral reaction to it. Here's why I don't think it's funny. And so, I'm watching like uncomfortable cringe, and it's, there's no funny to balance it. Like, I, I've watched a number of them in preparation to talk about this, and I just, I'm like, "Every one of these should have stayed in the drafts."

• 12:29Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah, I mean, the stuff that people are revealing, and then they range.

• 12:31Ashley Hesseltine?

  I'm sure there are some funny ones out there. I will watch them all.

• 12:34Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah, some of them are like, "I don't do the dishes." Like, I mean, it's a household chores stuff, but like, we've seen even like people say, "Sometimes I, I look at your face and I wish you were somebody else." No, like, a lot of them are like...

• 12:45Ashley Hesseltine?

  Dads that like I sometimes I say I like have to go fix something in the basement. I just need to get away like. I just think this is stuff you don't admit like this is stuff you keep to yourself or you tell your friends and if I saw ones which maybe they exist. That were like really funny and light and then the partner really reacted with like a hearty laugh. Like I I would be okay with it, but I've seen partners react really offended or uncomfortable like. This one guy told his partner he didn't like her cooking and it was just uncomfortable like. I don't that would hurt like tell me that in private if you need to tell it.

• 13:20Rayna Greenberg?

  I wish I like could take like a lighter stance on this. I just this stuff feels like. Mean and it you know what it is? It's stuff that stays in therapy. It's stuff that you talk to therapists about. You know, like that whole like sometimes I pretend I have to run an errand and I just go sit in the car because like I don't want to be around my family. I don't like being a father like. That's not stuff that's like he he he let's post it on TikTok.

• 13:40Ashley Hesseltine?

  No, you're literally right. Like that is what you actually say in therapy.

• 13:45Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah, I'm having doubts about my life because I'm doing this thing.

• 13:50Ashley Hesseltine?

  Well, that's what the art some of the articles said like this is like a weird bootleg therapy for some of these couples, but I'm like, what do you mean like? Posting this on the internet for people to comment on like feels like the opposite of therapy.

• 14:01Rayna Greenberg?

  Wait, I forgot about the comments section entirely. You know what? You just totally forgot that people also love your opinions about you.

• 14:07Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 14:07Rayna Greenberg?

  Like it doesn't. I don't know. It just doesn't feel like something I'm gonna plan, script, edit, post. Like even that suspect thinks or suspect says or does trend, which is much more lighthearted and funny when people are running and they stop and they laugh and the laugh is fake and it's weird, but like. Some of the stuff people reveal, I'm like, oh, you like scripted this and now you have to laugh about it?

• 14:28Ashley Hesseltine?

  But wait, I like that comparison because I do like a lot of those.

• 14:31Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah.

• 14:31Ashley Hesseltine?

  We're gonna talk about Tyler Cameron, but I love Jason Tardik and Tyler Cameron's. The one that Jason Tardik and Tyler Cameron did made me like want to do the trend like. And I commented that and it got a bunch of likes because people were like, yeah, you and Raina have to do it. I I don't it's not about the content. It's about whether or not it's funny. It's just isn't funny to me. No one's laughing genuinely.

• 14:47Rayna Greenberg?

  Right, that's true.

• 14:48Ashley Hesseltine?

  Like if I saw this trend and it was like. Light hearted and people were laughing, I'd be laughing with them. No one's laughing. Everyone's uncomfortable and contemplating a breakup.

• 14:56Rayna Greenberg?

  I I do think that you were right about what you said, though, about like. Some of these people are just using this as like an excuse for therapy or an excuse for communication like.

• 15:03Ashley Hesseltine?

  Right.

• 15:04Rayna Greenberg?

  Like I'm not going to tell you this in private, but I'll tell you this on this TikTok.

• 15:07Ashley Hesseltine?

  On TikTok.

• 15:10Rayna Greenberg?

  Do you think we're like we're just out of touch? This is like Gen Z. Toca Tessa's our Gen Z correspondent. Like, am I just old and out of touch that I think that this type of behavior like airing your dirty laundry on TikTok and then laughing at each other like it's so funny like am I just out of touch?

• 15:26Ashley Hesseltine?

  No, I mean, I don't watch that either because it makes me like.

• 15:28Rayna Greenberg?

  Tessa said it makes her uncomfortable.

• 15:29Ashley Hesseltine?

  It's uncomfortable to watch it.

• 15:31Rayna Greenberg?

  Yes.

• 15:32Ashley Hesseltine?

  It's uncomfortable.

• 15:33Rayna Greenberg?

  Okay.

• 15:33Ashley Hesseltine?

  I just want to be.

• 15:34Rayna Greenberg?

  And I love other people's drama, so I should like it, but I don't. No, you're right, though. The suspect trend seems like other people's drama, like Kristin Cavallari just like spilling tea.

• 15:44Ashley Hesseltine?

  Funny.

• 15:45Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah.

• 15:45Ashley Hesseltine?

  I also just like, don't think the trend is funny. Like, we listen and we don't judge. I don't, I don't find the setup funny.

• 15:53Rayna Greenberg?

  Well, tell me.

• 15:54Ashley Hesseltine?

  Like, I like the sus- the suspect thing is funny. It's a funny setup. I, I just don't like it. It's not for me.

• 15:59Rayna Greenberg?

  I, we listen and we don't judge. Like, I, it took me a second because I was like, I don't really know how this is like applicable. Like, we don't judge. Like, it's not, because those things are about the other person, they're not about you, really. Like, it's not like, I don't know, I pick my nose and I wipe it under the couch and then you say to your girlfriend or something.

• 16:15Ashley Hesseltine?

  Wait, I feel sad.

• 16:18Rayna Greenberg?

  Oh my, am I.

• 16:19Ashley Hesseltine?

  Right now, I don't wipe on the couch, you know, I just pick my nose.

• 16:22Rayna Greenberg?

  But like, it's like, people have like bo- like gross body stuff that they admit and then it seems normal to be like, listen, don't judge, okay?

• 16:29Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 16:29Rayna Greenberg?

  Like.

• 16:30Ashley Hesseltine?

  Wait, you're so right.

• 16:31Rayna Greenberg?

  Like, I don't shower at night. I don't shower in the morning.

• 16:34Ashley Hesseltine?

  You're so right. Like, it's misaligned. Yes, that's exactly it. Like, we listen, we don't judge should go with my boogers are under the couch.

• 16:46Rayna Greenberg?

  I don't want to make a comment at night.

• 16:47Ashley Hesseltine?

  I ruin your shirt.

• 16:49Rayna Greenberg?

  No, like, I, sometimes I hate you, like.

• 16:54Rayna Greenberg?

  Those are not the same thing to me.

• 16:56Ashley Hesseltine?

  Right. Well, let's talk about our next thing.

• 16:59Rayna Greenberg?

  This makes me so mad on the inside and I thought it was like, okay, so women in male fields, this trend, basically, I'll, I'll sum it up for you. It's essentially women posting things that men say to them, all this like pretty, non-committal, unkind behavior and they're posting it so they are doing those things.

• 17:17Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, so the first time I ever saw this, it was not really dating related, but I talked about this and I'll just tag her now. So her Instagram is deeper than money and there's a period, deeper dot than dot money. I hadn't seen this trend and she was like on the forefront of this was like mid-November. One thing said, when I hear a man talking about his fancy house and I hit him with the wow, what does your wife do? When a man asks me a finance question and I say, it'd probably be faster if I explained it to your girlfriend. When I see a man on the golf course and hit him with, did your girlfriend force you out here? When I see a man with a boat and I say, gotta be his mom's. When I'm talking to a man who owns his own business and hit him with, but who actually like runs it though? And so I just love those. Those are like career related because she's like a money career person. But like, most of them are like dating related.

• 17:57Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah, most of them are like some fuckboy behavior. I mean, there's really fun. This one made me laugh. He asked me to pick something up for him at the grocery store, so I went to the exact aisle and shelf where it was, stared right at it and texted him, I don't see what you're asking for. Like, I think that some of these things are so hysterical, but the dating ones started to get me like really mad. So stuff like, I left him unread while being active on every form of social media and said, sorry, I'm never on my phone.

• 18:20Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, he sent me a paragraph explaining how he felt and I replied with, I decay what you want me to say right now.

• 18:25Rayna Greenberg?

  And my favorite, just told him we're hanging out tomorrow, made plans, but when tomorrow comes, I'm gonna ignore him all day and come up with a random excuse. And I just, I started to get mad really because like, women are posting and it posts a selfie of themselves essentially with the behavior below it. And the message is like, if I were to do this, it would be preposterous. Like, it's hysterical to think that women would do any of these things. I'm sure women have done all of them. There's a lot of cases for everything, but in general, the behavior belongs to men. And it's funny because you're like, well, women would never do this. It's ridiculous. It's crazy. I would have to be actively trying to be an asshole to you in order even invent any of these things. If somebody was texting me a bunch and I just went on their story and liked it,

• 19:09Rayna Greenberg?

  I would have had to be like texting all my friends, like, I'm about to be the biggest dick ever right now.

• 19:14Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yes.

• 19:15Rayna Greenberg?

  If somebody explained, okay, make your plans with somebody. If I was like, I'll see you tomorrow at this time and the next day, a normal person said to me like, what time I guess you? And I just ghost out of the plans, I'd have to be purposely trying to do something to save you.

• 19:30Ashley Hesseltine?

  I'm so crazy. You are so right. Like, normal, everyday male behavior is a woman saying, "Watch how big of a dick I'm about to be."

• 19:38Rayna Greenberg?

  Yes, that's so true. It's, it's all of this, like, non-committal, unkind, "A friend would never treat you like this." And all of this, there's just thousands of examples of it. And I just, I kept getting madder and madder thinking about this. And this whole episode is kind of about that, like, fuckboy behavior and somebody that won't commit when you want them to commit. And I just kept thinking, like, we should reframe this behavior, because a lot of times when this stuff would happen to me, in my twenties, I would feel so bad about myself, and I would take it really personal, and I would just think, like, what did I do to provoke this? And I'm such a fool for believing that somebody would show up for me in the way that, like, I want them to. I felt so silly. But like, now that I'm older, I just find

• 20:18Rayna Greenberg?

  this behavior unattractive. It is unattractive to me that you cannot commit to a plan. It is unattractive to me that I've expressed my feelings to you, and you've responded with one sentence. You are a bad communicator, you are non-committal, you do not show up for me. It's just unattractive.

• 20:34Ashley Hesseltine?

  A hundred percent. Like, how often do we say intentional is a turn-on? You know, and a lot of times, this is just stuff you outgrow. I was watching Sex Lives of College Girls, and Bella, who I love that character, like, has this turning point where she has a crush on a nice guy. And she was like, "Oh, my God, nice is horny." Like, it's finally, to me, you know? Which is like, a feeling we've all felt of, like, you like that bad boy that treats you poorly. But this is what I've been saying since the beginning of podcasts, is like, I only like people that like me. Like, that behavior, yes, like, you have to somehow figure out how to shift your mindset over time and actually make it unattractive to you.

• 21:07Rayna Greenberg?

  Yes.

• 21:07Ashley Hesseltine?

  And it's what we talk about with being ghosted. Like, it's the meanest thing you can do to somebody. It's so mean to have someone that is, like, begging you for a response in some cases, just wants a response, and you...

• 21:22Ashley Hesseltine?

  Are such a coward that you can't just like text them that maybe you're not interested or something like that. And it's like, you just don't want someone like that. You've got to find a way to be like, that person fucking sucks. And I dodged the bullet. And I know it's easier said than done, but like, it's really gross behavior. And like, the more we can talk about it in that way and frame it in that way, the better.

• 21:40Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah, your inability to show up to plans you've committed to, to follow up with me to a text that I've sent and just normal human decency. Like, you wouldn't treat a friend like this at your mom. Like, I just, your disinterest in treating me like a human being is unattractive to me. And I just, every time I read these, it really reframed it to me because like, when I see a woman talking about doing it, it's preposterous.

• 22:02Ashley Hesseltine?

  I know. It's such a good way to look at it. Like, this is so crazy if we did this. Like.

• 22:09Rayna Greenberg?

  Every man you noted this four times today.

• 22:11Ashley Hesseltine?

  And listen, I also want to say, like, there's men listening that are like, uh, au contraire. I've been treated like shit. You know what men will say these days? Why do women initiate the percentage of divorces? Shut up. Why do you think?

• 22:24Rayna Greenberg?

  Because of you. Where are you going?

• 22:26Ashley Hesseltine?

  But anyway, I just want to validate that, like, women are assholes too. And men have had terrible experiences and we understand that. And not all guys are assholes, of course. I mean, there's so many great guys out there, but just, of course, that goes without saying. But overwhelmingly, that's why this trend exists, because it's predominantly male behavior.

• 22:44Rayna Greenberg?

  So hopefully, I mean, this whole episode really is about people that don't treat you just the way that you want to be treated. And just being able to say yourself, like, I just don't find us attractive and moving on. It's not about you. It's about how they want to treat another person and has nothing to do with you. That's none of your business.

• 22:59Ashley Hesseltine?

  All a dodge. Okay. Well, we're just going to talk about a couple of our partners and then we will get into it with Anna. We're so excited for you guys to hear. Oh, Skims. Listen, you can just do all your holiday shopping on Skims.

• 23:10Rayna Greenberg?

  I would.

• 23:11Ashley Hesseltine?

  So I.

• 23:13Ashley Hesseltine?

  I feel like I don't want to tell you what I've gotten them, but I have gotten so many things for people and I got some stuff for my brother, which is not gonna be relatable to everybody, but they go up to like five X.

• 23:22Rayna Greenberg?

  Oh, wow. Okay.

• 23:23Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, so my brother is big and tall. And so I got him some skin stuff. We'll see if it fits because he really needs like three X tall. But we're gonna see. So I was excited to get stuff for everybody on my list. We just love it. I mean, the website is so easy to navigate with like, gift guides, gifts for her, gifts for him. Oh, I got matching pajamas for Jay and Aaron. Like, I went ham.

• 23:42Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah, they give stuff. Yeah, that's right.

• 23:44Ashley Hesseltine?

  So again, get in that holiday shop and it's the best destination for all your gifts. And then you can get some things for yourself too, just throw in the bag. So everyone in your family can get Skims. And of course, like, we love the bra and underwear sets. Like, if you have a close girlfriend or sister, cousin, like, I think it's so cute to get these sets. They come in such a cute box. Like, you get the panties all in like one box. You know, they're bra size. You can get those too. And again, they have these like really cute different prints and colors for the season. And then the soft lounge is just the best feeling. So Rain and I both have the soft lounge pajama set in red.

• 24:18Rayna Greenberg?

  I'm red and black.

• 24:19Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, you got black. Okay, so I-

• 24:20Rayna Greenberg?

  I got the black before they were sponsored the show.

• 24:22Ashley Hesseltine?

  So I got someone who I'm not gonna say because she listens, but I got her the black. And I got some stuff for my mom and again, for my brother, for my nephews. I mean, we're just so obsessed, but you can't go wrong with the soft lounge. And again, that soft lounge dress, it comes in spaghetti straps, sleeveless, and then also long sleeved. Like, if you know their size, that dress is magic. It looks so hot and everybody get that for them too. All the the colorways and of course, all the sizes of all the bras and sizes for guys and everything. We just love it. This is like gotta be a go-to for your holiday shopping. So you can shop Skims Holiday Shop at skims.com, available in styles for women, men, kids, and even pets. If you haven't yet, be sure to let them know we sent you. After you place your order, select Podcast in the survey and select our show in the dropdown menu that follows. I do it every time. I select our show.

• 25:08Ashley Hesseltine?

  I just got to get that order. Under our names.

• 25:12Rayna Greenberg?

  Hinge is the dating app designed to be deleted. I mean, what a perfect partner for today's episode. While the holidays are crazy, take a moment to pause and reflect on your dating journey over the past year and what do you want to do for 2025, what you do differently in the dating journey next year. I mean, listen to this whole episode and then use Hinge as your guide to finding better people. I love the way that they built their app. The prompts are fantastic and you can really build out new photos and take those holiday photos, put them on your Hinge. We love the prompts. I've never seen another app do it like they do. They really built an app to create conversation, to connect with other people, talk about your intentions. And, you know, I always say, not just this past year, but through the podcast, I've just learned that, you know, dating should be

• 25:57Rayna Greenberg?

  fun and easy and light and Hinge is like really such a good gateway into that and just.

• 26:03Ashley Hesseltine?

  You think you'd write like, just bought a house, looking for someone to make it a home.

• 26:12Ashley Hesseltine?

  Women in men's fields. Looking for a man to help make this a home. Women make houses a home.

• 26:21Ashley Hesseltine?

  Help me make my house a home.

• 26:25Rayna Greenberg?

  Just bought a house, looking for someone to cook and clean in it.

• 26:27Ashley Hesseltine?

  Or just bought a house, looking for some dumb man to come fuck it up.

• 26:31Rayna Greenberg?

  Looking for somebody in women's fields.

• 26:33Ashley Hesseltine?

  For some man to leave his socks in my new house, everywhere.

• 26:36Rayna Greenberg?

  Women in men's fields is like, just bought a house, looking for someone to come and prove what I've already bought.

• 26:40Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 26:43Rayna Greenberg?

  But really, I can't recommend it enough. You can update your photos, your dating intentions, your prompts, talk about what you want for the year and just meet up with somebody for 90 minutes. It's such a good way to do it. Refresh your Hinge profile early or download Hinge today and set your 2025 dating intentions now. Okay, let's get into it. All right, guys, we are so thrilled to welcome our guest today. She has amassed millions of followers on social media as maybe both doling out tough love dating advice and she is the host of the new podcast, Brutally Anna. Please welcome to the show, Anna Kai.

• 27:16Speaker 00

  Thank you so much for having me. I feel like we recorded or did not record a whole episode.

• 27:20Rayna Greenberg?

  You've been here for a long time.

• 27:21Speaker 00

  I've been here for like an hour and we've just been talking.

• 27:24Rayna Greenberg?

  It's been cathartic, to say the least.

• 27:27Speaker 00

  But I'm glad we're actually recording.

• 27:29Rayna Greenberg?

  You walked in and we were all like, we're each other's people. We've just been going.

• 27:33Speaker 00

  It's been lovely. So, thank you for taking the time to speak to me before we actually were on air.

• 27:38Rayna Greenberg?

  Oh, no, you've been speaking to me. I mean, you've been speaking to me on the internet for longer than you know. I just, I came across your page and you do a lot of, you do makeup while you yell at me, basically. And I love it. It's really like, it's the best type of tough love dating advice. You do a lot of like, take yourself out of this bullshit relationship. I'll let you introduce yourself, but I think you're fantastic. And I've like followed you for a long time and I love your dating advice and it's very digestible and relatable.

• 28:05Speaker 00

  Yeah, thanks. Well, we try. We really do. It's been a long time.

• 28:08Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, you, you look amazing and I want to talk about the content, but I read this article of why we like that type of content of people doing something so much.

• 28:16Rayna Greenberg?

  Doing makeup while they talk to you?

• 28:17Speaker 00

  I'm curious.

• 28:18Ashley Hesseltine?

  There was this, it's a whole psychological thing of just that we recognize it. It feels safe to us to, and then we have something else to distract us while we're absorbing the information as well. But it's like a whole brain thing of watching something that you, yourself do.

• 28:32Speaker 00

  So that's kind of why I started doing it because I had this whole weird experiment with social media for two years before I went viral. And if you scroll back to my Instagram, my first Instagram post, when I first started out trying to be a home decor blogger, like if you want to understand how long it takes sometimes to get to where you want to be, go to my first Instagram posts. I did not know who the fuck I was. I think I was trying to be like a trad wife in Texas. Cause for some reason at the time, when I first started Instagram, all I was looking at were like Texan moms. And I was like, I'm going to be this. And I was getting on stories being like, hey y'all, I'm from Philly. Okay. And I went to NYU.

• 29:12Speaker 00

  And I literally, I'm going to send it to you guys because they sent it to my lawyer the other day because he was like talking about, oh, I need to get comfortable talking in front of the camera. And I was like, it is a journey. Like some people are born out of the womb, being able to speak naturally on camera. I'm going to send it to you guys for a laugh.

• 29:29Rayna Greenberg?

  I'm dying to watch.

• 29:30Speaker 00

  There's the heavy sepia tone, whatever that filter is. It's like the Paris filter on ecstasy on my face. And remember those early Instagram story filters where they like literally give you plastic surgery?

• 29:41Rayna Greenberg?

  People had to have an intervention with me about it. Cause like, I look back at old videos and I was like, how dare I do that to me? I can't believe this.

• 29:48Ashley Hesseltine?

  But if you are not looking back at your old content and thinking it's cringe, you're not doing it right. I'm sorry.

• 29:53Speaker 00

  You're not growing.

• 29:54Ashley Hesseltine?

  Exactly. Like you need to look back and be like, who was she? I look back a year ago and I'm like, ew, why?

• 30:00Speaker 00

  I know. Well, I look at my makeup from two years ago when I first started and I was like, I really thought those caterpillar eyelashes looked good. I was like, that smokey eye is like, damn, because like my makeup has just gotten so much more minimalist over the last two years, but that's changing. And I think that's great. Like my first Instagram story was me talking about a Minwax wood stain pen because our new puppy had scratched the floors. And I was like, I'm gonna be a home decor blogger and maybe get a partnership with Minwax.

• 30:29Ashley Hesseltine?

  I don't know what you're saying. I don't know these words.

• 30:31Speaker 00

  It's like a little like touch up pen for your floors.

• 30:33Ashley Hesseltine?

  Got it. Okay.

• 30:33Speaker 00

  So yes, Minwax is the brand.

• 30:35Ashley Hesseltine?

  You're trying to get those pens for free.

• 30:36Speaker 00

  I was trying to get those pens for free. The first product I got for free was faux tile. It's like, you know,

• 30:43Ashley Hesseltine?

  Uh huh.

• 30:43Speaker 00

  like faux wallpaper tile that's textured,

• 30:46Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 30:46Speaker 00

  textured that you can put up instead of real tile.

• 30:49Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, I know. I'll bet. My first one was hot sauce. What was yours?

• 30:52Speaker 00

  Oh.

• 30:52Ashley Hesseltine?

  Oh, like first product?

• 30:53Speaker 00

  Free product?

• 30:54Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah. Bottle of hot sauce for me?

• 30:56Speaker 00

  That's actually kind of nice.

• 30:57Ashley Hesseltine?

  Oh, my God. Probably like Captain Morgan. I used to work hard with Captain Morgan. Captain Morgan and Smear not paid my bills for years. So they probably weren't the original.

• 31:06Speaker 00

  But when I met you, you were really in that land.

• 31:07Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay.

• 31:08Speaker 00

  You were in the alcohol world.

• 31:09Ashley Hesseltine?

  Heavy. Yeah. With my account, I'd like a, it was like a funny parody account was called Bros Being Basic. But even when I was blogging, like the alcohol brands were like, she'll do, she'll do.

• 31:17Speaker 00

  Totally. It was good for your brand, though.

• 31:19Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah. Yeah. I worked with alcohol a lot.

• 31:20Speaker 00

  So like, let's back up. You were, you're married?

• 31:23Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yes.

• 31:23Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 31:23Ashley Hesseltine?

  I am married. I met my husband in 2018.

• 31:26Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 31:27Ashley Hesseltine?

  On Bumble.

• 31:28Speaker 00

  Well, 2017, I lied.

• 31:29Ashley Hesseltine?

  Oh.

• 31:30Speaker 00

  Oh, you met in 2017, but you started this podcast in 2018. Okay, great. So everybody has the same anniversary. And everybody was like, oh, what's the story of like how you met your husband? Because all you do is talk about your failures. And like, we met on Bumble. It was nothing special.

• 31:44Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay.

• 31:45Speaker 00

  I almost didn't go to the first date because I was really tired and

• 31:48Ashley Hesseltine?

  Totally. Did you see your story that you dated like 100 men in your twenties?

• 31:51Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 31:51Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay.

• 31:51Speaker 00

  Okay. But it's actually not that ridiculous to think about for any woman who's been in a major city and dating on the apps. If you go on an average of three new dates a week, which I was doing in my twenties when I was single and between relationships, it's just not that hard to amass that number. 100 first dates, not like 100 relationships.

• 32:12Ashley Hesseltine?

  Right.

• 32:12Speaker 00

  But it's like, and then of course, my trolls have to be like, what a whore. She, I'm like, I didn't sleep with, well, I might have slept with 100. I don't know. I've lost count, but.

• 32:20Ashley Hesseltine?

  So no, but I, I mean, what was that experience like? I mean,

• 32:24Speaker 00

  I had a goal in mind from the time I was, I have never been chill, ever. I've never wanted to hook up and have fun and be casual. I wanted to meet my husband freshman year of college, first weekend, and I thought I did. I met this guy during orientation. I went to NYU and he was really beautiful and kind of emo and just like everything that I wanted at the time. And he was like, oh, my parents met freshman year of college. I was like, we're following in their footsteps.

• 32:54Ashley Hesseltine?

  Oh, my God, yeah.

• 32:55Speaker 00

  And then three months later, he broke up with me.

• 32:57Ashley Hesseltine?

  Oh, no.

• 32:58Speaker 00

  So that dream died and then I continuously dated more and more men in college, hoping that they would be my husband and they weren't. And so after I left college, my senior year, actually, I had a boyfriend who was Jewish and still is Jewish. He's still alive, just not in my life. And I was so in love with him and I, NYU has a thing where it's like, it's a lot of Asian women and Asian men and Indian and Jews. So it's very common for Asian women and Jewish men to date at NYU.

• 33:29Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay.

• 33:29Speaker 00

  And I wanted so badly for my future to be a Jewish man's wife. I was like,

• 33:34Ashley Hesseltine?

  I get it.

• 33:35Speaker 00

  I was like, I just wanted to find a nice Jew.

• 33:37Ashley Hesseltine?

  Full send.

• 33:38Speaker 00

  Because it's also the cultural thing is, it's similar. It's like, I just felt like he understood my parents. I just sort of understood his parents and the problem was we didn't understand each other, but sure. So he ended up dumping me right before graduation and then I just completely lost my identity. I was like, I don't know what I'm doing. I'm like going out into the world as like, like a liberal arts major. I was going to pursue acting at the time. I was really unstable and I thought at least I could hang on to my identity as a Jewish man's wife. And now that was ripped out from under me. So I was like, okay, so I'm not converting to Judaism yet.

• 34:18Ashley Hesseltine?

  Wait till the next one.

• 34:19Speaker 00

  Wait till the next one.

• 34:20Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 34:21Speaker 00

  Cause I told him that. I was like, I'll convert for you.

• 34:23Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 34:23Speaker 00

  And he was like, that's so sweet, but I want to find a woman who was born into Judaism.

• 34:28Ashley Hesseltine?

  Oh, that's so nice.

• 34:30Ashley Hesseltine?

  You could do it on Zoom today, honestly. I mean, it's easier than ever.

• 34:34Speaker 00

  Really?

• 34:34Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 34:35Speaker 00

  That was so fucked. You're like, I'll change everything. I'll convert. He's like, I'm all set, actually. I will burn my life to the ground just so you won't pick up a shred of my dignity and incorporate it into your life.

• 34:45Ashley Hesseltine?

  Relatable.

• 34:46Speaker 00

  Yeah, but that's who I was. And I was like, I totally, I do not blame him at all because I think college is a time of exploration and it's totally fair that he would want to find a woman who is just born into, into the Jewish faith.

• 34:58Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 34:59Speaker 00

  We are all collateral damage in each other's journeys and I've hurt people and I've been hurt by people. And so there are very few good and bad people. Everybody's been the good and the bad guy in a relationship. So anyways, I then go on a massive online dating spree throughout my twenties. I had long-term relations in between. And then I had a lot of situationships, but it's not that hard to date a lot of people. And I think the reason I did that was because I always wanted a husband. Because I was never the type of girl who got dumped and was like, I just need a couple of months to be single and just like, think about how to recover from this. I got dumped. I remember one night on like a Thursday night at 11 o'clock, packed my shit up from the guy's place and I went home and I re-downloaded all my apps and I started swiping for an hour that night. Like it was a job for me.

• 35:44Ashley Hesseltine?

  Like a job, yeah.

• 35:45Speaker 00

  Because it is, in some ways, that's how I had to think about it because it's so unenjoyable, but the goal makes it worth, like the ends justify the means. And so I was like, okay, if I find my husband, it will be worth it. And it was worth it in the end. And especially now, it was worth it because it's part of my career. But like at the time, I was like, this fucking sucks. Why couldn't I have just been one of those girls that met their husband in college? And just be done with it.

• 36:11Ashley Hesseltine?

  Well, then you wouldn't have this career.

• 36:12Speaker 00

  Exactly. There we go.

• 36:13Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 36:13Speaker 00

  So maybe I would be baking pies in Texas.

• 36:16Rayna Greenberg?

  Hey y'all.

• 36:17Speaker 00

  Yeah, I mean, look, there are women who do that very well. I was just not one of them. It's so ridiculous.

• 36:23Ashley Hesseltine?

  Well, and you had to find yourself. I mean, you know all this. I'm not telling you anything you don't know. But you didn't know who you were your senior year in college. What if you had been with the person you met your freshman year in college? You know, who knows? So.

• 36:32Speaker 00

  Thank God. Thank God. Do you guys look back at your relationships in college and be like, oh, wow, if I had gotten what I wanted at that time? Like, I am so grateful that God knew better than me. Like, that's how I think. I'm like, I like, God was, or with the universe, whatever you believe in. It's like, somebody out there knew so much better for you than you did for yourself. And I'm grateful for that because if I got everything I wanted, I would be Jewish at least.

• 36:58Rayna Greenberg?

  I would be Jewish. I mean, I look back at my girlfriends that have been in a serious relationship since they were like 22, 23. And my ones that have really waited a really long time. And Ashley got engaged at, you know, 41. Like, and I think like, which, which is better, you know, to never have been out there in the world and had all this experience and seen all these things? Or to have all this pain and all this life, you know, what's, what's the path I would choose? Like, if I could choose either. I still think I'd pick the path of like, experience rather than like, you know?

• 37:27Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, I mean, everybody's path is different. I mean, all my college girlfriends married a guy they met while we were in college. And they have beautiful families. I still love their husbands. You know, I was obviously so different than them. I'm just going to school in the South also, which is part of it. But, I mean, I built a whole ass career, two companies, thriving, and then like, settled down with the love of my life. Like, I think I did it right. And again, I've never wanted children, so there's that too. You know, a lot of women are like, I can't imagine that, you know, I want children. But, yeah, I mean, everybody's got a different path, but I couldn't imagine this not being, this is the dopest thing.

• 38:02Speaker 00

  I know. I like, look at my life and I feel so grateful that I went through all that shit because. Similarly, I have girlfriends who met their husbands very young and now they're getting divorced because I'm 34. So it's like if you kind of settled down before you knew what you were looking for, a lot of women married the guy that they were only supposed to be with for a few years, not for a lifetime. And it's nobody's fault, but you grow apart and you want different things in life. And I think once you get to a certain age, you know what you want and you find somebody that grows alongside with you as opposed to growing apart. And like I was in my late twenties and my husband was 34 when I met him. And we just, the reason we click is because we want the same things. And it's very hard to want the same things when you don't know what you want. And I didn't know what I wanted in my twenties.

• 38:47Speaker 00

  I was honestly just secretly hoping for a man to come save me for most of it.

• 38:51Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, I think a lot of people feel like that, like someone else can help me figure out who I am.

• 38:56Speaker 00

  Yeah, like what you said, it's like, would I have chosen this life of just like agony to get here? If I knew I was going to get here, yes, but at the time I would have chosen to be living a life of leisure and just joy and watching my girlfriends struggle through the dating apps like I was. And I would swipe to the point where I would run out of men in New York City. And they'd be like, please take a break. You've run out of men within a 10 mile radius. I never wanted to go into Brooklyn because I'm that bitch. So I was only in Manhattan. And I would run out of men, but that's what it's like. People were like, oh, I'm so tired of swiping. I'm like, yeah, it gets really fucking awful. But like, maybe what it is, is also I'm like the daughter of Chinese immigrants.

• 39:38Speaker 00

  I was taught like, life is not about finding pleasure and joy and everything. It's just like, life is about struggle. It's always about struggle. There is meaning in the struggle. My parents like, will never stop struggling, even though they just should fucking retire at this point.

• 39:55Ashley Hesseltine?

  They're defining, yeah.

• 39:57Speaker 00

  Maybe that's what it was in me. I'm like, okay, there's meaning in the struggle. There's meaning in the endless swiping and the chats and everything. And eventually that proved to be true, but I didn't know.

• 40:06Ashley Hesseltine?

  Right. So I'm just curious. I mean, when you met him, did you have a feeling he was gonna be the one? Or was he just another, was he a hundred and two? And you're like, I can't even see, like, I don't know which way is up. Like, when did you know he was special and went on a second date?

• 40:21Speaker 00

  Yes and no, because by the time I met him, I was so jaded because I don't know if you guys have been in these situations where like I would go on amazing first dates, like explosive fireworks, you're like, you are my soulmate.

• 40:36Ashley Hesseltine?

  Totally.

• 40:36Speaker 00

  It would last for about a month, two months, three months. And then they all of a sudden turn into a completely different person and lose interest. And you're like, did I make that all up in my head?

• 40:45Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 40:46Speaker 00

  So I had so many situations like that where every time I was like, oh my God, I met my husband and it proved to be not true. So by the time I met him, I had no enthusiasm for the sparks in the beginning. But what I will say is the second I saw him, I was immediately comfortable. So I don't necessarily believe in love at first sight, but I believe in comfort at first sight. And I just felt very at home with him, like I kind of knew him already. And so I was like, okay, this could be great. But I also, I, it was my rule never to text first after a first date because I just figured like, if he's interested, he'll text me and if he doesn't, then he's dead to me.

• 41:21Ashley Hesseltine?

  I think it's a solid rule.

• 41:22Speaker 00

  My husband's like, David's like, so wait, if I never texted you on a second date, that was an amazing first date, you would have never reached out? I was like, crap.

• 41:30Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 41:30Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 41:31Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 41:31Speaker 00

  He's like, damn.

• 41:32Ashley Hesseltine?

  But you, but you did, so.

• 41:33Speaker 00

  You did, exactly. So we're here now.

• 41:35Ashley Hesseltine?

  And all the men that came before you proved me right, so. And you're like, and if I just would have been 10% more tired, we wouldn't be here either.

• 41:41Speaker 00

  I know, I've never believed in canceling on somebody's same day. So, but I was like, I just, you know, just first dates are so exhausting. They're like abuse, right? And then immediately, as soon as I saw him, first of all, he's way cuter than his photos because straight men take horrible dating photos.

• 41:55Ashley Hesseltine?

  Who's gonna take their photos, you know?

• 41:56Speaker 00

  Oh, his mom.

• 41:57Ashley Hesseltine?

  Every time.

• 41:57Speaker 00

  His mom did. I wish, I need to go pull up. He like deactivated his Facebook. I'm gonna try and find this photo. He's standing in front of a hydrangea bush in a shirt that's like tucked in a little bit funny, like too big. And he's just got his hands in his pockets. He's not a photogenic person to begin with, but like, his mom clearly took his dating app photos and he just had like a bunch of random headshots, like, you know, very, very. Very budget headshots and then a bunch of group shots of him with all of his buddies from high school and college that to the point where you have no idea which one because they're all wearing hats and then you're fine like, oh my god.

• 42:35Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yes.

• 42:35Speaker 00

  But no, you know, I didn't know and I didn't know for a while, but I knew it was always easy. And then once we got, I think right around the six month mark, I think that you should know at the six month mark, whether it's working or not. And if it's not, you gotta get the fuck out. And especially after a year. That's how you stop yourself from getting into these long ass situationships where you're just wondering, like, I never questioned with him, not for a second. And so that's what every woman deserves. It's just a man that not necessarily is love bombing you because I had that, where they make you feel like, you know, you're God's gift to man for about three months and then they just disappear. It was a very healthy relationship from the beginning because he was a very

• 43:17Speaker 00

  well adjusted person. He would call me after work. He wouldn't be bombarding my phone during the day because he's got shit to do. And we would see each other on the weekends and he would make plans for the weekend on like a Monday or Tuesday, not last minute on Thursday night because he couldn't find somebody else on the apps. So it was just easy. And I think when it's meant to be, it's easy. It's not work. This whole idea that love is work and like, marriage is hard and love is hard. I think life is hard.

• 43:40Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 43:40Speaker 00

  And life is gonna throw lots of shit in your face, but our relationship isn't hard.

• 43:45Ashley Hesseltine?

  I love that you said that. And I do think long term marriages take work. Of course, we believe that. And kids and life and everything.

• 43:55Speaker 00

  And we don't have kids right now. So it's like, come back to me in three years.

• 43:58Ashley Hesseltine?

  Exactly. But the beginning phases. I talk about this with my fiance, because sometimes you talk to couples and they're like, it is so hard. You're gonna die. And I'm like, I don't think we're ever gonna be.

• 44:12Speaker 00

  Yeah, but do you know how many girls that you and I know that are like that?

• 44:15Ashley Hesseltine?

  Of course.

• 44:16Speaker 00

  Do you know how many people that you and I know that like they're in a relationship with somebody, they just waited them out. It just was so bad for a year, for years. And then the guy just got tired.

• 44:25Ashley Hesseltine?

  Wait, really?

• 44:27Speaker 00

  They wore him down.

• 44:27Ashley Hesseltine?

  That actually happened?

• 44:29Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 44:29Ashley Hesseltine?

  Oh, that happens.

• 44:30Speaker 00

  And it's, you know, it's a lot of tears. It's a lot of agony. It's a lot of

• 44:33Rayna Greenberg?

  Like, I didn't know when he was gonna commit and yeah.

• 44:36Speaker 00

  And then he eventually committed?

• 44:37Rayna Greenberg?

  There's a few.

• 44:39Speaker 00

  Gonna start like you're gonna be up at the altar and be like, the way our love story started because you're gonna have to tell it over and over again. It's he did not want to commit to me, but I wore that man down.

• 44:48Rayna Greenberg?

  Literally, we know. My family hates him, my friends hate him, my therapist hates him.

• 44:53Speaker 00

  But I never figured out what it was about me that couldn't let go. And so here we are.

• 44:57Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah.

• 44:58Speaker 00

  But it's like, I always tell women, it's like, you are the grand prize. And we were not taught that growing up. Like, we're all millennials. It's just like, now I'm Gen Z, they don't give a fuck. Like, they're just like so self-assured in a way that I never was at that age because I was taught that my value lied in who wanted me. And when you grow up with the Disney princesses we grew up with, I have such a beef with the OG Disney princesses, because we did a fucking Moana, you know? It's like, we had Snow White, who was asleep until a man kissed her, you know?

• 45:31Rayna Greenberg?

  Ariel? Oh, my god.

• 45:32Speaker 00

  Oh, my god.

• 45:33Rayna Greenberg?

  Give away your talents for this man. Stop talking. Your voice is gonna disappear.

• 45:38Speaker 00

  Mute, right. My, my favorite Disney princess was always Mulan. Because, yes, identity politics, but also she was such a badass. Because she was the only Disney princess that was like, I don't need this guy over here. I'm trying to save my fucking village and not to have to send my 70-year-old father to war.

• 45:55Rayna Greenberg?

  Totally.

• 45:56Speaker 00

  Right. So, we grew up with a very skewed idea of what it meant to be a woman. And I think we're undoing that, but I think it's really hard.

• 46:04Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah, it's a lot of years of breeding. Okay, so I really wanna talk to you, we really wanna talk to you about like, how to let go of those type of relationships so that you can like, find the ones that do serve you. Because I found you online at a time in my life where I needed to sort of like, learn how to let go of something that just was emotionally holding me back. And so like, I think so many people are in these situations where they're like, this is a situationship. This is a guy that won't commit to me. I'm getting sort of what I want, but I can't depend on this person to show up when I want them to. I don't know they're gonna introduce me to their family over the holidays. And I think in the beginning, those kinds of, the chase is alluring. But it's hard to like, let it go. Because sometimes they give you like, just enough.

• 46:42Speaker 00

  Yeah, I mean, I have a Girlfriend who in our twenties, she went back to a guy no less than 12 times. I actually ended up stopping to count because she was like, I'm doing it. I'm leaving him finally. And then she would just go back to him because he gave him, he would give her just enough. And I think for me, in all aspects, right, not just relationships, like I have a hard time letting go of anything. But I just got to a point in my life, especially with my career, because that's obviously, I've been in a stable relationship for the last six and a half years. So it's, it's not always in the forefront of my mind, but my career, it was like, okay, like I didn't make it as an actress in my twenties. And that's so hard to let go of that dream. Okay. And I didn't make it as this and I just kept trying.

• 47:21Speaker 00

  And I was just like, the process of letting go and for people who DM me and they're like, I just can't let go of this man that I know is bad for you. I'm like, plain and simple, you're going to die one day and you have no idea what day that is. And if this was your last week on earth, do you want to spend it fucking around with, wondering whether Chad is going to text you back? And whether you're going to text him back in three hours and 13 minutes or eight hours and 56 minutes, which is going to be the power move here. Like, how long can it take? And I think when we really grasp our own mortality, and I know I'm being morbid here, but I mean that it's like, our time here is so finite. And the older I get, the more that I realize that I just, I don't want to spend any time with anybody that makes me feel bad in any capacity.

• 48:05Speaker 00

  Because if you don't know also what a healthy relationship looks like, sometimes for a lot of women, if all they're used to is chaos, peace feels like boredom.

• 48:13Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, I was gonna ask you if that crept in at all with your now husband?

• 48:16Speaker 00

  I would flip flop. No, no, no, not with him because by the time I met him, I was, I'd gone to therapy. I had a career that was making me money. I was a real estate agent and I was like, feeling pretty good about myself. But like, I just, for the longest time in my early twenties, would go from like, the emotionally tortured bad boy, who could only give me half of what I want, but like, told me at midnight, you know, after having sex that I was special, right? And then I would get dumped by him and then I would go and date a really nice, solid guy that maybe I like, wasn't that attracted to for whatever reason. And be like, this is boring. And then I'd break up with him and then I'd go back to the bad boy. And like, it was just always this kind of like, I couldn't figure out what the happy medium was.

• 48:58Speaker 00

  And the reality was, is just like, I did not do enough work on myself to figure out, like, there is a balance. Like, you don't have to find a man who's boring in order to feel stability. But before you find that stability in yourself, you're never gonna get it. So like, letting go is just this process of like, you don't have time to hold on. You really don't. And when you really think about that, I think it's easier. Look, it's easier said than done. But also too, I know a family friend who has literally been fucking around with this guy for 10 years. 10 years. Yeah. And he has taken all of the best years of her life. She wants to be a mom, that's not gonna happen at this point. Hoping, right? Just hoping against hope that he would come around. And she's in her 40s now.

• 49:42Speaker 00

  And he refuses to come to family functions. And, you know, he's her boyfriend, but he doesn't interact with her. And I'm just like, what is going on here? Why did you put up with this for 10 years? And like, that is on you. You are a co-conspirator in your own misery. At that point, you know, fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. You knew, probably year two, what he was about, or year one. Six months in. Yeah. Six months in. Yeah. And you were hoping against hope. And I think what that comes down to is like, you attribute some of your self-worth to being with this man and only with this man because you don't think you can do better. And ladies, you can always do better.

• 50:24Speaker 00

  But it's funny because I will meet the most boss fucking women who have the most amazing fucking careers and like, just know how to negotiate for themselves in the corporate world or whatever. And then it comes to a man and they just like, crumble. I'm like, what the fuck? You know, it's like, women have two brains, I feel like, for their careers and for men. And a lot of times, I'm just like, you would never put up with this in your job. Why are you putting up with this in your personal life? Like, the ambiguity. Like, don't you want to feel like you're going somewhere in your building? Not just you're just pulling the guy along? And so, I see that. I've seen women just waste

• 51:03Rayna Greenberg?

  So much time hoping and I'm like, all that time you could have been out there, meeting other people. Like, there are so many people in this world, so many.

• 51:11Ashley Hesseltine?

  Well, that's the biggest thing for me is like, when you think about how much energy you put into this person and you didn't have energy for other people, which is understandable, because you're getting some kind of dopamine hit. And you're getting some kind of emotional stability from this person that you enjoy. But like, you're foregoing that energy you could be putting towards something else. It's impossible.

• 51:30Rayna Greenberg?

  Right.

• 51:30Ashley Hesseltine?

  But not even just dating, all the other things in your life, your career, you know, maybe it's your family. Maybe it's your fitness or your health, like, it affects everything else. And so I think sometimes women who might be listening to this, they're in their twenties, you do have a lot of time. Listen, it's not ticking like that, you know, like, but what are you missing out on that you should be building now? I mean, when you were in a toxic relationship, like, it takes over your life. I mean, when you're just anxious and stressed and distracted, it's so hard to be productive, you know? Like, if you're the girlies out there that are like, I want to make it like you guys, or whatever you want to do with your life. Like, you cannot get there when you're being held back by this toxic relationship. You know, we talk about like wasting time, but it's like, it's all your time.

• 52:13Ashley Hesseltine?

  It's all, it's not just finding someone else. It's like actually everything else too.

• 52:16Rayna Greenberg?

  The paralysis of like what, what happened to me when I was like in my twenties, like waiting for a guy to text me back. Or you're talking about your friend's boyfriend that won't go to family functions. Like, I would never be able to enjoy a family function if I knew that like, maybe he was gonna come, maybe not. I don't know if he'll show up for me. Like, I feel, I feel paralyzed inside my body.

• 52:35Ashley Hesseltine?

  Right, yeah. But I think it's like, again, it's like, what are you ascribing? It's the value that we ascribe to being with this person that's the issue. It's like, if you don't ascribe any of your value to being with this total Chad, then it's fine. But I also think of it like, I live in Connecticut and there are a lot of old houses in Connecticut that probably should have just been torn down and you start over again. But instead of tearing the whole house down, because, oh, it's, there's a house there, it's existing, like, let's try to fix it, right? So they add some weird, like, Frankenstein.

• 53:04Speaker 00

  Addition onto it and now the house just looks strange because it's not proportional and it's a house built in the 50s and then it's just got this like cancer growing off of it, but like now you got a bigger kitchen, you got a bigger kitchen, but like you got other issues and like, you know, over time they keep adding to it because it's like it's an old area. And I'm like, this would have just been so much better if you just demolished it and rebuilt a new.

• 53:24Rayna Greenberg?

  I really like this analogy.

• 53:25Speaker 00

  Right? And it's like, that's your life. And if anything, the only reason I'm here now is because I was always willing to just demolish my life over and over again. I mean, there wasn't much to demolish. It's not like I was building much for the first 20 years. I was just hoping to find like even a piece of wood to like be like, this is a foundation. But I think that's what it is. It's like, why fix something that really just shouldn't be any there anymore? Like just burn it all to the ground and start anew, you know? The soil is, I'm really big into analogies, but like, the soil is more fertile after you burn everything to the ground. You can grow more from it.

• 53:57Rayna Greenberg?

  How cruel is it for like another person to just, we'll say like a man and a woman, like the woman, she keeps trying, she has all this hope and they know you're gonna do it and they know that you're gonna stick around. How cruel is it that somebody else is gonna let you do that? And they're just like, I'll just keep letting her do it until she stops me, you know?

• 54:16Speaker 00

  Because people are selfish and it benefits him to keep you in his life and kind of use you as needed. But it's like, why allow yourself to be entertainment for a man? And I think that's what a lot of people do is it's like, women think I'm special, I mean something to him. No, you're special to him in the fact that like you're his Netflix, right? He's bored on a Friday night, he couldn't get another date. Instead of streaming, he's gonna text you and have you come over. And you're gonna Netflix and chill, right? You are entertainment. And so do you really want to be that? Like, do you want to deduce yourself to just something that he hits up because he's bored, right?

• 54:51Ashley Hesseltine?

  I agree, yes, with the boredom, but sometimes guys, they go in and out. Some days they do want to have a girlfriend and they want to have the girlfriend experience and the next day they don't. And that's a lack of consistency. And if there's one thing that you should have in a healthy relationship, it is consistency. If there's one thing you should want of somebody, it's consistency. And so I think there's some guys out there that like, they're not faking it. They really are having fun with you on that date and they're really having fun doing the girlfriend-boyfriend experience the next morning on a Sunday, laying around doing this stuff. And then they just don't want it the next day. But you- Keep hoping and that's the saddest thing, I think, is when you see relationships that have really fallen apart, relationships, I say that loosely, whatever it may be you have going on. And like the woman, for example, is just yearning for those early days and you're like, those days are over.

• 55:35Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 55:35Ashley Hesseltine?

  Like the days when you treat you.

• 55:37Speaker 00

  The honeymoon days is over.

• 55:37Ashley Hesseltine?

  It's not gonna go, he's not gonna, that's, he's not that person anymore. And you're just trying to get it back so badly and it's, I guess it's hard to be like, it's, that's, that's not reality anymore.

• 55:47Speaker 00

  Yeah, and it's like you're trying to, you know, it's the first time you do a drug is the best time. So my favorite, I'm very, very sober now, I don't even drink, but in my early twenties, I went to NYU, I was a club girl, I did ecstasy. And I will never forget the first time I did ecstasy, Molly, whatever the fuck you want to call it, people are like, it's different. I'm like, I don't know, it's all illegal to me. And like, thank God, you know, whatever, what is the drug that's killing everybody? Fentanyl. Fentanyl was not a thing, whatever, 15 years ago, when I was experimenting with my body and my mind.

• 56:17Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, no, same.

• 56:18Speaker 00

  Yeah. But I remember the first time I did Molly and I, it was like, I was transported to another world and it was amazing and it was so great, but subsequent times were never as good. And that's what happens with any sort of addiction. And a lot of times, like, women are not addicted to drugs, they're addicted to men. They make poor choices with men. And like, it's, it's the same thing. My dad would always say, cause he's a scientist, he's like, it's a chemical reaction happening in your brain.

• 56:45Ashley Hesseltine?

  Totally.

• 56:46Speaker 00

  And when you get broken up with and you get heartbroken, your brain is depressed, but it, it just needs to rebalance itself. And that always really helped me because I was like, oh, it's not me, I'm not this sad person. It's just a chemical imbalance in my brain.

• 57:01Ashley Hesseltine?

  Absolutely.

• 57:02Speaker 00

  And so that's what it is. It's like, stop chasing that first high, you're never gonna get it again.

• 57:06Ashley Hesseltine?

  Uh huh. It's just, it's hard sometimes. I've heard you talking about like, meeting people where they meet you.

• 57:11Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 57:11Ashley Hesseltine?

  And I think it's tough, cause I think women's notion is to placate, make things better and to try harder. I mean, that's, that's so many people's notion is, he's pulling away, well, I'm gonna go towards it.

• 57:22Speaker 00

  That's every, every relationship too, not just with men and just also with friendships. You know, I have so many women who are like, oh, you know, we're at the age where we might still be friends with our college friends, we might be pulling away from them. And like, a lot of women are like, I need to hang on to this, right? I need to go even further, I feel this friendship like fading, or I feel, you know, this relationship with this family member isn't really working. I mean, I have a friend who was like, my mother-in-law has never really liked me and, you know, I just keep trying and trying and trying and. She finally stops, she's like, I can't try anymore. It's like, and for me, the most freeing thing was as a people pleaser, because I thought my worth lied in who liked me. The best thing that ever happened to me was just realizing that I don't actually give a shit if people don't like me. And actually, most people, like, not most people.

• 58:07Speaker 00

  Most people shouldn't like me. We like you. You're our people. Well, like, you know, it's like, it's okay to be disliked by somebody for who you are. Totally. And, meeting people where they meet you, it's like, you know, it's so funny when you stop groveling, what happens essentially to men, friends, anybody, family members? And you see that they're like shocked that all of a sudden, you're just not there anymore to really, and then you don't have a relationship, because you are the only one keeping that relationship. And so with a man, so many of us have been in this position where it's like, you just keep going the extra mile, because they're never gonna come to you. And then you stop, and they're like, wait a minute. And the men who don't know what they want, and they just wanna fuck around, that's when they come to you. And then you're like, oh, well, you came to me now, should I come to you? And they're like, ah, never mind, I got it. Right.

• 58:51Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay, just gonna take a quick break, and then we will get back into it. I'm so excited to talk about Aura Frames today. So many people in my family are getting these frames. I am so obsessed with them, and I'm so excited to gift them to people. This is the number one digital frame, featured by everybody, Wirecutter, The Strategist, Wired, recommended by Fast Company, Wall Street Journal, Forbes, everybody is obsessed with this. But I can tell you why I'm obsessed with it. So, it's gonna be, this frame that you're gonna gift, it comes in this beautiful packaging. The frames themselves are beautiful. We're talking about the Carver Matte Frames today. And, they're super easy to set up, takes about two minutes, you're gonna do it with the app. And then you're just gonna upload your photos on it. So there can be multiple people on it. So let's just say, you wanna give this to a grandparent, which I just love. And, I don't have any grandparents left, but if

• 59:35Ashley Hesseltine?

  I did, you know, this is such a nice thing they could have in their home. And then, their kids and grandkids could be uploading photos to it. And they never know what's gonna pop up, you know, like, you're kind of on the back end, putting the photos in, and there is free unlimited storage. It's private, so you have complete control over who has access to the frame. And the photos look like real prints. So, they really make them look amazing. There's interactions, you can react with emojis, there's interactive touchbar, smart photocropping, brightening, and we just love it. I mean, I think this is the perfect gift. The packaging is so beautiful. You know what I was thinking? I'm gonna ask my sister in law sent me like a really, really wonderful housewarming gift, but I would like to buy myself an Aura Frame and I want her to upload photos of the baby.

• 1:00:15Ashley Hesseltine?

  Cause every single day I'm like, send me those baby photos. They're in London. I don't ever get to see them, but like every day he changes and every day I want new photos of that baby. Totally. That is a great thing. Yeah. You buy it for them and then you're like, now you gotta put photos on it. Here, give me your phone. Here's the app. So we just love it and you guys can get on it. I mean, if you're like, what do I get for somebody? This is gonna be it. So. Save on the perfect gift by visiting auraframes.com to get $35 off Aura's best-selling Carver Matte Frames by using promo code G G at checkout. That's A U R A. Frames.com promo code G G E. This deal is exclusive to our listeners. So get yours now in time for the holidays. Terms and conditions apply. Do you have advice for how to end these relationships? Cause just like you said, like you might pull back one day and then they're coming at you. You know, like, how do we get over these people?

• 1:01:00Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah. Cause there's a lot of good in these relationships. You wouldn't keep going back if you didn't enjoy a lot of that. And love is rare and finding people you like is hard.

• 1:01:07Speaker 00

  And you can love the wrong person. It's like, I don't really subscribe to the theory that it's like, it's only love if it's easy. No, you can. Fall in love with a totally wrong person. It could be toxic, but it's still love.

• 1:01:16Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah. I, I, I thank you very much. Cause we had a guest that I was talking about, like the first person I fell in love with. And he was like, I said, we were volatile and we fought all the time. And he was like, well, that's not love. I was like, excuse me, sir. Also, everyone hated you in this episode. Our audience hated you. We should take it down. You guys know what I'm talking about. But yeah, tried to tell me, I'm like, no, it was love. It was fucked up.

• 1:01:36Speaker 00

  It was dysfunctional. This is why I always say it's love is not enough to sustain a relationship.

• 1:01:40Ashley Hesseltine?

  I'm not peddling that it was healthy, but it was love and I enjoyed it.

• 1:01:44Speaker 00

  I felt it deep in my core.

• 1:01:46Ashley Hesseltine?

  You enjoyed a lot of stuff about it?

• 1:01:47Speaker 00

  I'm kidding. No. Yeah. Okay. So how to let go? It's like, we're like, oh, but it's not all bad. Right? Cause if it was all bad, then you wouldn't care.

• 1:01:53Ashley Hesseltine?

  Totally.

• 1:01:54Speaker 00

  But like, it could be all good. And like, you're not thinking about that. It's like, oh, but it's not all bad. And I'm never gonna find a person that I click with. Maybe I'll find somebody that is the other 50% that he's not, but. I'm never gonna find the other 50% that he is. And it's like, it's probably not that important how special he is. Honestly, like I've clicked with so many men where I'm like, you're so unique. Nobody's that special. Like, you really have to think of it like you are special and your relationship with yourself is special. Stop putting this man on a pedestal. Once you really get out of the relationship, can you then see clearly in every single guy that I was with? That I thought was so different and we had this chemistry, it really wasn't. It was just me gaslighting myself. Cause it's just easier. It's easier to stay in what you know, even if it is dysfunctional because it's the devil you know.

• 1:02:39Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:39Speaker 00

  And inertia is a very powerful force. And I actually, you know, I, I thought about this in relation to dating because this is really weird, but my 401k was always with Vanguard. I'm going somewhere with this, okay?

• 1:02:53Ashley Hesseltine?

  I used to have that.

• 1:02:54Speaker 00

  Yeah, you did. My 401k was always with Vanguard and they recently sold their 401k retirement division to a company called Ascensus. Never heard of Ascensus. They sent me all these letters being like, your money is going to Ascensus. I was like, okay, whatever. I just like ignored all of them. And they're like, final notice, if you want to get your money out of Vanguard before it goes to Ascensus, you should, it's actually too late now. I was like, oh, it's fine. I was like, and then I finally was like, I should look into where the hell my retirement is going. So I Googled, you know, what's going on with this Ascensus migration? And I like found this money blog and this guy being like, okay, they're like, fine. They're like, they've been around for a while. It's, it's good. And then I logged in and I couldn't figure out how to use the interface. And I was just like, this is so fucked up. And

• 1:03:36Speaker 00

  the guy in this blog posted on this money blog, he's like, here's what most people are going to do with this migration. Nothing. They will just accept Ascensus, even if it isn't the most functional platform. I'm so sorry if you work at Ascensus. I had no fucking idea.

• 1:03:50Ashley Hesseltine?

  We'll bleep it. No kidding.

• 1:03:51Speaker 00

  Yeah, I was like.

• 1:03:52Ashley Hesseltine?

  They're a sponsor on this episode. No kidding.

• 1:03:55Ashley Hesseltine?

  You guys hit ascensus.com/gge to get started today.

• 1:03:59Speaker 00

  Well, I moved my money to Fidelity and they're actually great. So get Fidelity on your butt. I was like, and I just, I don't know why that stuck out to me so much because it was just such a moment where I was just looking for financial advice, but I was like, that's so applicable to all aspects of your life. He's like, you know, 90% of people will not do anything because it's just easier to maintain the status quo, even if it's not the best thing for your money. And I was like, I will not be that because. I actually would have been. I was the one ignoring all the letters. I was like, it's fine. They, you know, Whatever. It's not good for us. But I also think like the, when you feel so numb in a relationship, or you're never, never going to hear from somebody and the lows are low, the highs are the fucking highest. You're, oh my God, you feel so good because somebody finally showed up for you. And it's like, it shouldn't feel like that.

• 1:04:44Speaker 00

  Like, the lows shouldn't feel so low and the highs shouldn't feel so unexpected as a win.

• 1:04:48Ashley Hesseltine?

  Right. And I like what you said of people kind of hold on to whatever percentage, 30, 40, 50% of a person. He's really funny. He makes me feel, no one's going to get me like this. He really listens to me. You know, like all this stuff. And it's like, what if you could have it all be good?

• 1:05:02Speaker 00

  No.

• 1:05:02Ashley Hesseltine?

  Or I don't know, 80 to 90, you know? And I think people get hung up on like one trait or one thing they think they won't find in someone else. And I was talking to a friend recently and we were talking about another friend and I don't know, I don't think she's in the best relationship for her. And she's been with this guy a long time and they're engaged and he's like a bad dude. It's just like, I don't think, I think she could have more. I think she could have a better relationship. And I asked the friend, the engaged friend said, well, he makes me happy. And I said, I think what she means is he doesn't make me unhappy. And I think we hear horror stories. And I think she's saying like, well, he doesn't make me unhappy. Like, I really felt like I didn't even hear it come from her mouth.

• 1:05:43Ashley Hesseltine?

  And I like read between the lines, knowing what I know. And my friend was like, yeah, wow. Okay. I think that's what she meant. And I'm like, I think that people are just willing to go along with something that's not terrible, you know?

• 1:05:54Speaker 00

  The bar is in hell.

• 1:05:55Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, yes, that's what it is.

• 1:05:57Speaker 00

  It's so, like, where are our standards? But again, it's like, being willing to sit in discomfort and being single and wanting to be in a relationship is extremely uncomfortable. And a lot of women, if they have good enough but not great, don't want to deal with the discomfort. But anybody who gets anywhere in life and gets what they want, most of them have to deal with discomfort. And everyone, I mean, think about you guys starting this podcast, right? It's like, it's all the same. It's like starting your influencer careers. It's insanely uncomfortable in the beginning. But there was something in you that you were like, I'm willing to suck it up. Because for the possibility of a better life, I mean, it's like the immigrant story, right, that I was talking about. It's like my parents were like, we could just stay in China

• 1:06:42Speaker 00

  and around all of our family and maybe not live the life we want to be living, but live a comfortable life. And they're like, no, we're going to uproot ourselves, go to a different country, struggle for 15 years and hope that it gets better. But like, again, I don't think the point of life is to be happy. I think the point of life is to, you know, live a life meaningful enough that it makes the shitty parts of life, the inevitable shit, worth it. So how do we leave? Everybody has to hit a breaking point. And I really don't think, it doesn't matter what I say, it doesn't matter what your girlfriends say, you have to see, and it always comes down to a point where if he doesn't leave, you have to see something so heinous in him that you were like, I can never unsee this. And if you don't get to that point, it takes

• 1:07:23Speaker 00

  so much courage to walk away. I have a girlfriend who's literally going through a divorce right now with an amazing guy. He's so great. But they are just going in two very separate directions in their lives. And she's known for a while that it wasn't working. And I just thought, I was like, she's never gonna leave. I was like, because it's working out and he's a really good guy. It's so hard to leave a good guy. But she ended up leaving and I said, you know, why did you decide to do this? Because she was like, I just knew in my heart that I deserve better. And if you don't feel like you deserve better, you're never gonna leave. And it's so easy for us to be here, be like, you deserve better, right? What does that actually mean? It's not, you know, I'm not gonna tell you how you need to figure that out. It's like, for me, it was years of therapy. It was realizing

• 1:08:08Speaker 00

  that I needed to get financially stable on my own. Money was a huge factor in me feeling like I could finally let go of this idea that this man was gonna save me. Because for so long, I was like, doing gig work in the city while also auditioning. And once I got into real estate, you know, my old job before I was an influencer, I was like, oh, I can make a living, pay my bills, have disposable income, save money, all on my own. That freed me in a way that honestly, no therapy couldn't do that for me. And so that's why I always advocate for women. It's like, go figure out how to make money. Because... It's not even so much about the money itself. It's about what that money represents and it's freedom. And so maybe the first step is like, go get a promotion.

• 1:08:52Speaker 00

  Like, go get really good at your job and then realize that you have worth outside of the man that you're with. And as soon as you start reinforcing that, like, I have worth in my career, I have worth with my friendships, my family, I have this big, beautiful life outside of this man, like, why do I need him? And that's how you leave. So leave it surely.

• 1:09:10Rayna Greenberg?

  I like to acknowledge also that everybody has a really different breaking point. You know, but the answer after you kind of realize, I don't feel good inside of my body, isn't wait around longer, try harder, give them more passes, look the other way long, you know? And I really validate that that's hard, because when you find somebody and you're like, they get me, and this is my really close friend, and I love their company, people around me love them, you know, it's hard to be like, this isn't enough, fuck it, walk away, because like, you see people around you in bad relationships too, and you're like, I'm walking away from that shit?

• 1:09:40Speaker 00

  Yeah, exactly.

• 1:09:41Rayna Greenberg?

  So I understand the notion to want to like, wait around, but this is the ultimate, like, if they wanted to, they would, like, six months in, a year in, if somebody wanted to be with you, like, they would be with you. And I think a lot of women, I don't want to keep saying that, a lot of people, resort to like, saying, well, I'm too much, I'm asking too much. It's like, you're just asking the wrong person.

• 1:09:59Speaker 00

  Well, that's the easy thing to do, is because if you constantly blame yourself, you are the only person you can control.

• 1:10:05Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:05Speaker 00

  So if you say, I'm too much, I need to change, I said that all, you know, when my Jewish boyfriend was dumping me in my, you know, illegal studio apartment in New York City, I was like, I will call you less, I won't text you on the Sabbath, I know your phone's off, I was like, I'll be less, I basically will disappear. You know, I will disappear from your life, but I still want to be your girlfriend, right? You know, it's, it's just more like this idea of how much can you diminish yourself before you don't exist anymore?

• 1:10:33Rayna Greenberg?

  And like, bartering.

• 1:10:33Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:10:34Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah, like, you're bartering. You're bartering with somebody to be with you, we've gone astray.

• 1:10:37Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:10:38Rayna Greenberg?

  And we've all been there.

• 1:10:39Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah, I mean, some women haven't, some women are just like, I have a few girlfriends, so I'm like, you were just born out of the womb with self-worth, right? How, how the fuck did you do that? But I had, it was a long, hard journey, and I think I still struggle with it, you know? It's never ending. It's like, I still walk into rooms and I'm like, I still feel like an imposter. You know that Martha Stewart thing? It's like, I can't remember who was interviewing her because she's having such a moment right now.

• 1:11:02Ashley Hesseltine?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:11:02Speaker 00

  She's like, I've never felt imposter syndrome. I'm like, I love that. I wish I related, but I basically feel like an imposter everywhere I go. So it's like,

• 1:11:12Ashley Hesseltine?

  You're doing amazing.

• 1:11:12Speaker 00

  You know, but it's like, but I, I don't know, like, whatever. It is who I am. It's like, admitting anything differently. It's like, I am confident because I'm scared. Right? It's just like, it's all intertwined. It's the yin and the yang in life. Obviously, this whole career is very new to me. I've only been doing it for two years. It's like, I'm always waiting for the other shoe to drop. And this is an extremely up and down job. There's the highest of highs and the lowest of lows. It's like a bad relationship, basically, right? But I'm in it and I love it and I can't imagine doing anything else. And I fought my whole life to get here. So I'm in it and it's just like figuring out how to manage the fact that the highs are never quite as good as you think they are. And the lows are never quite as bad as you think they are. But, you know, it's, it's a journey.

• 1:11:55Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah. And you have a stable partner.

• 1:11:57Speaker 00

  Yeah, I have a stable partner and I have a wonderful family.

• 1:12:00Ashley Hesseltine?

  Imagine if you didn't. Imagine if you had the instability of this career on top of an unstable partner that like made you feel like that. Like, can you imagine?

• 1:12:07Speaker 00

  Women just juggle instability in all aspects of their life and they just suck it up because again, it's like, you get comfortable with pain. And then you just become numb to it. I mean, I literally had a girlfriend say to me the other day, she's married and it's been dysfunctional for a while. And I was like, what are you guys doing? Like, are you okay? And she's like, I mean, I'm fine, but I just feel dead inside. And I was like, that's where we've ended up. And she's like, yeah, I just feel dead inside, but it's fine. I, I exist. And it's almost easier to feel dead and numb than it is to feel anything at all because she's like, nothing's going to change.

• 1:12:42Ashley Hesseltine?

  That's really sad.

• 1:12:43Speaker 00

  I know.

• 1:12:43Rayna Greenberg?

  I think we get comfortable in these feelings, you know, and I think that a lot of it's from childhood, obviously. And the type of relationship that we're talking about, you get comfortable, kind of almost like, Competing for somebody's love.

• 1:12:54Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:12:54Rayna Greenberg?

  That's a comfortable feeling for me. Like, I grew up really wanting like one of my parents to like like me, love me, and it's it's a comfortable feeling.

• 1:13:01Speaker 00

  Cause it wasn't given to you freely?

• 1:13:02Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah, stability was given to me freely, but like liking me, enjoying me, really loving me as a person was not given to me freely by one of my parents. But I, it's a comfortable place for me to be.

• 1:13:12Speaker 00

  Exactly. And it doesn't always, everybody thinks it's like daddy issues, right? It's not always daddy issues, and it's not always necessarily, it's from childhood, but like you know where your shit comes from. My shit comes from the fact that I was one of the only kids of color in Pennsylvania growing up, and I had to work so hard to make friends my entire life. And it was always just this like, I always felt like the odd man out. I was bullied. And my parents had a really loving home, and they always made me feel valued. And I was kind of a weird Asian kid. Like, all of their friends' kids were like acing the SATs when they were like eight, and I just wanted to sing and dance and just like, you know, wear funny hats.

• 1:13:51Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:51Speaker 00

  And they just let me, like, they let my freak flag fly, right? They were like, go be you. You know, my dad's tip on parenting, which I will definitely take when we have kids, because it just sounds like the easiest route. He was like, I just think that you should let children grow like weeds, whichever way they want to grow. And my husband's like, yeah, that could have ended up really poorly, because you could have ended up like an addict or whatever, like not, you just happened to be very driven, right? So you ended up somewhere, but like, he's like, I don't know, we should probably take some happy medium between like, you know, how my parents raised me and like how your dad just was like, go do whatever. But I never felt like I didn't belong at home, but I always felt like I didn't belong at school, which is like seven hours of your day. And when you're a kid,

• 1:14:32Speaker 00

  you just want to feel loved and accepted by whoever. For you as a parent, for me, it was by the kids in school. And so I never really understood that that's where I was coming from until much later in life. I was like, I don't have daddy issues. Like, you know, I'm fine. I was like, oh, it's because I'm used to this dynamic of having to work for love and acceptance outside of my family, and that's why it feels familiar. And that's why I'm going after these men that are halfway interested, but I feel like I have to work for the rest of it. And it feels like a win. It's like, oh, a prize.

• 1:15:04Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:05Speaker 00

  You don't want the prize, okay?

• 1:15:06Rayna Greenberg?

  Right.

• 1:15:08Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think that's gonna resonate with a lot of people.

• 1:15:10Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah, me too. Well, can we like, close out with closure?

• 1:15:13Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:15:14Rayna Greenberg?

  I think that, you know, we wanna end these relationships and feel like really good about it and we were heard and seen and who doesn't wanna end any relationship with like, good closure? So maybe, I like your thoughts on like, asking the person that's doing this to you for the closure.

• 1:15:27Speaker 00

  Fucking bullshit. Oh my god. I think closure is such a myth, because if a relationship is ending, it's ending because it wasn't good, okay? Nobody's like, "We were the one and it just happily ended," okay? Sometimes it's amicable and I'm not saying it has to end in an explosion, but most of the time, it's really heartbreaking. It is a loss. And, a lot of times, people are very confused. And, I don't know if I really subscribe to the theory that there is ever a mutual breakup, you know? People are like, "Oh, it was a mutual breakup." I'm like, "Yeah, but somebody had to initiate it," okay? There's always, I think, one person, even if both people know that it wasn't working, there's always one person that really didn't wanna be in the relationship. And I think there's one person that

• 1:16:11Speaker 00

  wanted to make it work. And that's usually the person looking for closure, cuz they weren't ready to close the door. And it's like, why would you go back to the man who hurt you and ask him to heal you? It's like an addict, again, sorry for all the drug references on here, but it's like, the addict's like, "I'm just gonna do it one more time, just to feel it one more time, and then I'll be done," right? And it never is. You're never done. So it's like, give yourself that closure. Like, women just need to take the agency for rewriting your own story. So, I remember one time, I got dumped by my boyfriend, who I was madly in love with, and he halfway dumped me. He was like, "I'm just not ready to be in a relationship right now. I'm really messed up. It's me, blah blah blah, not you.

• 1:16:52Speaker 00

  I wanna stay in touch. I wanna, you know, it was really fucked up that I agreed to this, but he was like, "I wanna take you out to dinner on the anniversary of the day we met." Once a month and just catch up, but not date you. And I was like, sure, that sounds great. So I did that for a few months.

• 1:17:07Ashley Hesseltine?

  That is a torture.

• 1:17:08Speaker 00

  It was torture. But how I freed myself was I finally was like, I'm going to write him a letter. And I just didn't even know if I was going to send it at the time. I was just like, I'm just going to write out all my thoughts because I'm so confused. And it was just so helpful. And I just, I wrote and I wrote and I wrote for like two hours and then I like edited. And I was like, literally, it was like a college essay, honestly, at this point. I was like, this is the common app. And by the end, it was just a very clear distillation of how I felt. And I was like, this is great. I'm going to send it to him and I don't care if he reads it because it was just like me freeing myself. Like, no, I'm not saying you have to write a letter. Maybe you don't like writing, you know, it's like, but there are things you can do that everybody can do to take agency back.

• 1:17:51Speaker 00

  And I think that's what we feel as women is we feel powerless when we are not the ones to end the relationship. And like, take the power back in whichever way you can. For me, it was writing a dumb ass letter and sending it to him.

• 1:18:01Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, like, people do that all the time. Well, you did send it.

• 1:18:05Speaker 00

  I did send it.

• 1:18:05Ashley Hesseltine?

  Did he ever respond?

• 1:18:06Speaker 00

  Uh, no.

• 1:18:07Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay.

• 1:18:08Speaker 00

  But it's okay.

• 1:18:09Ashley Hesseltine?

  Like, you have to like, get it out of your body.

• 1:18:10Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:18:11Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:11Speaker 00

  I think that is the way to take the power back. This person's made you feel really powerless for so long. At least you can be the one to say like, it stops now.

• 1:18:18Ashley Hesseltine?

  Exactly. Yeah. And I love that quote and Raina had told me that quote too, that you can't expect the person to hurt you to heal you.

• 1:18:25Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:18:25Ashley Hesseltine?

  I think that's really powerful. Well, that's what people do.

• 1:18:28Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:18:29Ashley Hesseltine?

  You know, is like, go back to the scene of the crime.

• 1:18:31Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:18:31Ashley Hesseltine?

  Like, maybe it'll hurt less this time.

• 1:18:33Speaker 00

  Shoot me again. Just miss this time. Right? And it's like, it's always worth the second time too. And I always think that past behavior is the best indicator of future behavior. Yeah, sure, some people change, but most of the time they don't. Most of the time it's just the same shit.

• 1:18:47Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, I, I think, you know, it's some person who you've had this situationship with or whatever you have going on. That's been like hurting you or keeping you on the hook. Someone's stringing you along, like, it really is a kind of crazy thought to be like, well, they'll give me something that'll make me feel better. It's like, why in the world would that person do that? After the weeks or months or years that they've been stringing you along, why would they be the person to make it better?

• 1:19:16Speaker 00

  Exactly, but we do that and it's illogical and it's just, again, it's rooted in our insecurity that we will never find better. And like, there's so much better out there for you. And we've all been there, all three, four, eight, 10,000. You know, it's like, we've all been there. And in a way, I think it's helpful to know that you're not special. You're not the only person who's ever felt this. And other women have gotten themselves out of it and live amazing lives because they gave themselves the closure. So give yourself an amazing life.

• 1:19:43Ashley Hesseltine?

  Man, I love you so much.

• 1:19:45Ashley Hesseltine?

  Perfect way to wrap it up.

• 1:19:47Speaker 00

  We really just encourage people to go to your TikTok, your Instagram. Your advice is so great. And you started the podcast. You've had a lot of former guests of ours on the podcast already. And so we're, you know, we'd look forward to seeing what else you do. Tell everybody where they can find you. You can find me across social media at maybeboth and my podcast is Bootleiana.

• 1:20:04Ashley Hesseltine?

  I love it. Well, congrats on everything. We loved having you. And you guys know where to find us, girlsgottaeat.com. Our final shows this weekend in Boston. If there are tickets left, you can grab those at girlsgottaeat.com. Girlsgottoeatpodcast on Instagram and TikTok. I'm Ash Hess, Reina is Rayna greenberg. Subscribe on YouTube. Share this episode with a friend who may need it and we will see you Thursday. Have a good week, guys. Bye.