How I Built Resilience: Morra Aarons-Mele of Women Online

Morra Aarons-Mele is the founder of Women Online and hosts The Anxious Achiever podcast. Morra shares how her agency pivoted during the pandemic after losing 30% of its business overnight, and how anxious entrepreneurs like herself can lead effectively in a world full of stress and uncertainty. These conversations are excerpts from our How I Built Resilience series, where Guy talks online with founders and entrepreneurs about how they're navigating turbulent times. Order the How I Built This book at: https://smarturl.it/HowIBuiltThisSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Guy Raz?

  We get support from US Bank. A question I love asking founders. What's the one decision you almost didn't make? The one that changed everything? Because it's never the obvious stuff. It's never, I decided to start a company. It's the small, boring, Tuesday afternoon decision you barely remember making until you realize it's the reason everything after it either worked or didn't. Say you're 18 months in. Business is growing. You've got expenses coming from six directions. Gas for the van, office supplies, your phone bill, team lunches that are actually client meetings, and you're putting it all on whatever card you grabbed in year one. You're not thinking about it. Why would you? You've got bigger problems.

• 0:45Guy Raz?

  But here's the thing. Path A, you keep going like that. End of the year, you're sorting through statements, trying to figure out what went where. You've left hundreds, maybe thousands, on the table in rewards you never earned. Money that could have gone back into the business. Path B, you pause and get the US Bank Triple Cash Rewards Visa Business Card. Now, you're earning 3% cash back on gas and EV charging, office supply stores, cellphone service, and restaurants. You pick up an extra $750 cash back as a bonus. And you've got a low APR on purchases and balance transfers for 12 months while you're scaling. Same business, same expenses, two completely different outcomes

• 1:30Guy Raz?

  based on one small decision. Visit usbank.com/business to learn more. The creditor and issuer of this card is US Bank National Association, pursuant to a license from Visa USA, Inc. Some restrictions apply. Our presenting sponsor today is Anthropic, the team behind Claude. Every founder on this show started with a hard question. Not the marketing plan, the 2:00 AM kind. Is this idea any good? Am I the one to build it? Should I quit my job? Anthropic got built the same way. A public benefit corporation founded on one Hard question. How do we make sure AI goes well for people?

• 2:14Guy Raz?

  So they asked over 100,000 people their hopes and their fears and are publishing what they find, even the uncomfortable parts. Me? I've got my own hard question about AI. Here it is. If everyone has access to something that can help them write the business plan, build the prototype, analyze the market, maybe even come up with the idea. What separates the people who actually build something from everyone else? I don't have a clean answer yet, so I've been sitting with it with Claude. There's hope in hard questions. Ask yours at claude.ai/hibt.

• 2:54Guy Raz?

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• 3:36Guy Raz?

  The agents bring speed and scale and people bring taste, judgment and control. Learn how you can get more out of your site from a Framer specialist or get started building for free today at framer.com/built for 30% off a Framer Pro annual plan. That's framer.com/built. Rules and restrictions may apply. AI isn't just opening new business opportunities. It's changing the way businesses get work done. The questions they ask, the decisions they make, the routine tasks they can hand off. That's the idea behind NetSuite Next, the next generation of NetSuite with AI woven into the tools your business already relies on.

• 4:21Guy Raz?

  NetSuite Next surfaces insights exactly when you need them, puts agents to work on routine tasks and problems, and lets you ask complex questions in plain language, like talking to a knowledgeable colleague. But technology is only part of the story. AI is also reshaping how people and teams work together, and that shift is already underway. That's why NetSuite wants to put a new, expert-created business guide in your hands today. It's called Aligning for the Agentic Era: How AI is Changing Everyday Work. And right now, it's yours, absolutely free. Inside, you'll discover how AI could reshape work across your entire organization, and how to position your business to prosper from it.

• 5:06Guy Raz?

  If your revenues are at least in the seven figures, get NetSuite's free business guide, Aligning for the Agentic Era: How AI is Changing Everyday Work, at netsuite.com/built. The guide is free to you at netsuite.com/built. netsuite.com/built. Hey, it's Guy here. And before we start the show, I have an ask. So this year has been hard and kind of overwhelming. From the pandemic to the economic crisis, to the demonstrations against racial injustice, to the election, on top of an economic downturn that's left millions of people without work. So many of us have experienced loneliness,

• 5:50Guy Raz?

  anxiety, fear, depression, sometimes all at once. And when it started to become clear that this year would be unlike any year any of us have ever experienced, our team on How I Built This decided to figure out how we could be there for you. Because not only did we want to continue to bring you stories that might inspire you or push you to keep going, but we also wanted to remind you that you're not alone. This year, we've produced more than 100 total episodes. That's more episodes than all of Mad Men or all of Breaking Bad. And we did that this year alone. Each episode of How I Built This is painstakingly

• 6:33Guy Raz?

  researched, carefully fact-checked, edited and re-edited multiple times, scored with original music, and mastered to a sound quality that very few other podcasts even bother with. And we do it not just because we love what we do, but because we truly love how what we make makes your life a little better. We make How I Built This for you. And if our show brings some meaning and joy and inspiration to your life, please consider making a donation to your local NPR member station. How I Built This airs on hundreds of stations across the US, and those stations need your help to continue to provide

• 7:16Guy Raz?

  great content for free. And so if you are able, I hope you can contribute to the work that they do. You can go to donate.npr.org/built and give directly to a local NPR station. That's donate.npr.org/built. And thank you.

• 7:42Guy Raz?

  Hey, everyone, and welcome to How I Built This Resilience Edition from NPR. On these episodes, we've been hearing from entrepreneurs and business leaders about how they're building resilience into their businesses during this very challenging year. And today, we're going to hear from Maura Aron's Mealy, founder of Women Online and host of the Anxious Achiever podcast. Women Online is a digital agency that works with nonprofits and political campaigns to reach women audiences. And on her podcast, Maura talks about how anxiety and other mental issues impact the way we work.

• 8:16Speaker 01

  I have two jobs, which is actually great in a pandemic, I guess, if you're anxious. Women Online is a company that I started nine years ago, and we've always been virtual. We've never had an office. We are a team of badass internet pioneers who create digital campaigns that mobilize women for social change. We've worked on three presidential campaigns and for some of the biggest change makers in the world, people like Malala, Yousafzai, and the UN. And I'm so proud of the work that we do because it all comes from my early life as a blogger, frankly, when I realized that the sheer act of someone going online and saying something

• 8:58Speaker 01

  that was their truth from their heart was powerful, right? And so that's what we do. We bring women together, we create content, and hopefully make some good change. I created The Anxious Achiever because I have clinical anxiety. I have lots of different kinds of anxiety, and it was really hard for me to be an entrepreneur. And I needed a roadmap, but there wasn't one. So I decided to try to make one.

• 9:22Guy Raz?

  Yeah. So, I mean, it sounds like there was a problem you have that you wanted to address, and a problem that a lot of people have. So let's talk about this. I mean, here you are, you're an entrepreneur, you've got this collective, and you've got this marketing business, and you are an anxious entrepreneur, an anxious introvert, and an anxious achiever. Tell me about that. How does that factor into your day-to-day life?

• 9:48Speaker 01

  Well, but Guy, you're an introvert.

• 9:51Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 9:51Speaker 01

  Are you really?

• 9:52Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 9:52Speaker 01

  Oh, my gosh. See? But what do you do every day? You talk to people.

• 9:56Guy Raz?

  I know. And I do live shows in front of thousands of people and give speeches. I know. But for me, it's not that I'm shy, although sometimes I am, or a little bit awkward. It's more that I try to put so much into it because I really want to be there for everybody who has questions and wants to interact. But there's a certain point where I just can't anymore. I can't physically do it.

• 10:20Speaker 01

  That's all it is. I think we overthink introversion. I mean, I've been in a room when you've held the stage of thousands of people, it's like a tent revival. You have got that room. But my guess is after a summit or a big show, you're like, leave me alone.

• 10:36Guy Raz?

  I'm like, out. I'm asleep at eight.

• 10:38Speaker 01

  Yep, that's all it is. Happy introverts who don't have overwhelming social anxiety, we can talk about that in a minute, need to manage their energy. I always say Oprah, huge introvert, talks about it all the time. It's not about, can I hold the room? Am I funny? Am I shy? It's just about managing your energy and building in less stimuli, more alone time.

• 10:59Guy Raz?

  Yeah. By the way, are introverts, and this is something that I think is a bit of a misnomer, they're not always shy, right?

• 11:07Speaker 01

  No, they're not always quiet. Introverts can be funny. Introverts can be president. Like, it's, there's so many misconceptions, I think, about what an introvert is. And I think you and I are both kind of Gabby introverts, right? I think that we're still working through it. There's no blood test, right? So it's not like you can say, I'm a type A introvert. You know it if you're someone who walks into a hotel lobby, and if the music is loud, the lights are loud, there's people everywhere, it's just a lot of stimuli, and then you have to go to a day long's worth of meetings, and you're like, no, this is exhausting to me.

• 11:41Guy Raz?

  Yeah. I walk through that lobby and go right to my room and put in earplugs.

• 11:44Speaker 01

  Indeed.

• 11:45Guy Raz?

  You know, this is a question I get from a lot of people all the time. They'll say, you know, I listen to the show, and I'm so inspired by the entrepreneurs you have, but I'm not charismatic. I don't have, and I'm, I'm a little awkward, or I don't know how to strike up conversations. And I'm like, do you listen to the show? Like, half of the people on the show are awkward, social weirdos. You know what I mean? Like, this, there's an idea that you have to be charismatic to be a successful entrepreneur, and And I don't think that's true at all.

• 12:14Speaker 01

  I think it's a legacy of our sort of model of command and control leadership, right? Where we were taught that a leader was very much a salesperson who sort of stood up and held the room, often a white guy in a suit. But the thing about it is you can learn how to hold a room. It's a skill. It's a total skill. It's like learning how to run a meeting. It's like Excel. When you love what you do and you have passion, you can absolutely learn to talk about it in a way that compels people because you're authentic.

• 12:42Guy Raz?

  Yeah. When did you realize that you could take your observations about entrepreneurship and your own experience and make it a business and then write a book and start a podcast from it?

• 12:53Speaker 01

  Well, I still have a day job, let's be clear. But I like that. It's sort of my creative outlet. I actually coined the term entrepreneurship porn in an article in Harvard Business Review, I think in 2013, when I wrote about the idea that entrepreneurs had to be tireless, charismatic, always on, on the cover of Fast Company Magazine. And in fact, that most entrepreneurs weren't like that. And it sort of went viral. Like, people really resonated about it. And that's when I started thinking that people really wanted to hear, and you know this because I listened to your podcast, another side of what it's really like to run a business.

• 13:29Guy Raz?

  Yeah. You know, a lot of the work you do, of course, is focused on women entrepreneurs as well. But you have this article about this rule you call the 10 touches rule, which sounds a little bit weird, but it's not weird. The rule, not touch 10 people.

• 13:44Speaker 01

  Not physical touch.

• 13:45Guy Raz?

  Right. It's every week you want to reach out to like 10 people in your network, like a phone call or a lunch or a coffee, which isn't possible now, but you just want to reach out to them. Are you still following that rule today? Do you still try to hit up 10 people a week?

• 13:59Speaker 01

  Even more so during the pandemic because you can't get physically out. So I must admit, the 10 touches I stole from my husband, who is a wonderful extrovert and has a skill of, I mean, he still talks to people from first grade. He's that kind of guy. You know, he has an incredible network. I am not that kind of person because I'm an introvert with social anxiety. I may call my best friend on the phone and think that she doesn't want to talk to me.

• 14:19Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 14:20Speaker 01

  Every time I reach out to a client, I want to hang up because I'm anxious.

• 14:23Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 14:24Speaker 01

  So I force myself and I've created methodologies. So 10 touches, if you are an introverted or socially anxious person, but you want to keep building that network, keep building that business pipeline. Every week, think of, and it doesn't have to be 10, it could be five, it could be seven, people in your extended network. These are weak ties, right? This is not your best friend. This is someone who you did a project with three years ago. This is someone who you just, they popped up on your feed in Facebook and they've had two kids and they've changed jobs. Send them a note, right? Send an email, create content. The other thing that I will say, and this comes to anxiety, the act of getting out of your head and saying something nice to someone else,

• 15:07Speaker 01

  it changes your mood. This is actually scientifically proven. So if you find yourself stewing in a bit of anxiety right now about the future and who isn't, write an endorsement for someone you respect on LinkedIn. It will change your day.

• 15:21Guy Raz?

  True. You've reminded me to do that. It's, it's so true because if you think about the people in your life, I can remember virtually every person, especially early in my career, who encouraged me, who was like, hey, that was a good, even just passing me in the hallway at NPR and said, hey, I heard your report. That was great. People who said that to me 25 years ago. I remember every single one of those. They meant so much. And especially if you have the ability to endorse or to praise somebody who's younger than you or who you're mentoring, that's so huge. It's so impactful.

• 15:55Speaker 01

  Not only will you build your network and it will come back to help you in terms of your business, it will make you happy.

• 16:01Guy Raz?

  It's so important. So tell me, how, I mean, let's talk about this idea for a moment. I mean, we're not at a time where we're getting lunches or coffees. And, and let's face it, even after the vaccine, I think a lot of us are going to be reluctant to do that, you know, right away. But let's say you want to reach out to 10 people and they are weak ties, people you maybe met once or twice or haven't talked to in a long time. What would you say in that email?

• 16:24Speaker 01

  I think that the first thing to get over is a sense of shame or embarrassment that you're reaching out. So many people feel that they shouldn't have to ask for help, right? Especially, you know, if you're trying to make it on your own, you think, oh gosh, I, why should, why am I doing this? I shouldn't be asking for help. You have to get rid of that because if you're going to be an entrepreneur especially, you have to get used to asking people for help. And especially now in the pandemic, we all need a little help, right? No one's going to do it alone. So have in your mind that this is a good thing to do, but also Give to receive. I think that the thing that people who get overly overwhelmed by the idea of I have to be networking do is that they reach out right away with too

• 17:07Speaker 01

  big an ask. You know, they're asking someone to marry them when they haven't even been on a first date.

• 17:10Guy Raz?

  Yep.

• 17:11Speaker 01

  Tired metaphor, but we all get it.

• 17:12Guy Raz?

  Yep.

• 17:13Speaker 01

  I like the idea very much of giving someone something useful, whether it's an article, whether it's a quick check in, and then seeing if there's a chance to connect more deeply. And sometimes you have to wait, you know? It takes a long time for relationships to build. I've lost many clients and I've said to my team, they'll be back. Let's be good to them. Let's not write that crummy email that we all want to write because they'll be back.

• 17:40Guy Raz?

  Yeah, no, totally. I wonder more, I mean, given that so much of your work is about connecting, right? This year has really kind of forced you to probably rethink that entirely. I know you, you recently gave a talk, I think, about how to kind of deal with this virtual work environment that many of us have found ourselves. And one of the things you talk about is, don't try to recreate the culture that you've got in the office place online because it's not possible and that actually is going to be counterproductive. What did you mean by that?

• 18:11Speaker 01

  I think that a lot of people, especially at the beginning of the pandemic, when we thought it may not have been nine, 10 months, just slapped the old routine onto Zoom. So if you had six meetings a day in the office, all of a sudden you had six on-camera meetings. And I think what a lot of people don't realize is that, and you'll understand this, a Zoom meeting is really a performance, especially if you're talking. If you're not talking and you're on Zoom, you're actually more likely to become disengaged and depressed. So Zoom is often draining for everyone, even introverts. There was a lot of articles about, oh, the introverts are so happy. They sit in their PJs all day. And no, we feel disconnected too, because we're all just out there performing on Zoom, wondering what the social cues

• 18:55Speaker 01

  are, sort of fake connecting and not getting any real energy back. So my first piece of advice is to do less Zoom. It's not, it's not rocket science, you know? Do sort of like a ratio. I have like a one to three ratio. For every one Zoom, I try to do three audio calls because I think it recharges people. They don't have to be on camera.

• 19:16Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 19:16Speaker 01

  They're more focused. You know, don't just put the old rules onto the new schedule. Build in breaks, respect boundaries, et cetera.

• 19:26Guy Raz?

  When we come back in just a moment, more of my conversation with Maura Aaron's Mealy and how leadership styles have changed in a year filled with collective anxiety. Stay with us. I'm Guy Raz and you're listening to How I Built This, Resilience Edition from NPR.

• 19:45Speaker 02

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• 21:14Speaker 05

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• 21:53Guy Raz?

  Hey, welcome back to How I Built This, resilience edition from NPR. And I'm talking with Maura Aaron Zemelee. She's the founder of Women Online and host of the Anxious Achiever podcast. With the economic and social instability this year, many people are experiencing more anxiety every day at work and at home. And Maura says that leaders need to find balance in showing both strength and vulnerability.

• 22:17Speaker 01

  I think the first thing is to acknowledge that you feel anxiety and that your team probably does too. And depending on the kind of team you have, you can say, wow, I'm feeling anxious. This is really hard. But you, as a leader, also need to remember that you need to create kind of a holding environment, right? So I think one of the things that leaders struggle with, but I think is OK to be a little bit vulnerable with, is to say, oh, my gosh, this is really hard. I don't know. I said this to my own team at the beginning of the pandemic, when we lost 30% of our business overnight. They were all emailing me, saying, am I going to have a job? And I said, I don't know what six months from now will look like, but your job is protected right now, and you have my commitment that I will try the best I can.

• 22:59Speaker 01

  They knew I was anxious, but I also felt like it was my job as the leader of the team to not be a mess. And I think that every leader has to find that balance of being vulnerable and open and not denying reality, but not being a full-on mess in front of the team.

• 23:15Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 23:15Speaker 01

  And, you know, the other thing, this sounds silly, but we joke about doom scrolling on Twitter.

• 23:21Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 23:22Speaker 01

  Don't do it right before a big meeting.

• 23:24Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 23:25Speaker 01

  Don't let that fear into your workday. Protect yourself, because it is scary out there.

• 23:33Guy Raz?

  Yeah, I go through periods where I just don't check social media, like, you know, two or three weeks. And you mentioned, you know, you mentioned anxiety and leaders and showing up and dealing with it.

• 23:45Guy Raz?

  I had a conversation with a pretty prominent CEO about a week and a half ago. He's a bit older, over 60, and we were talking about this idea of vulnerability. You know, one of the things that we try to do on How I Built This is draw out vulnerability, because I think it's really important. I think that authentic leaders show vulnerability, right? And I have found that it's easier for younger leaders to understand and adopt that, but harder for older leaders to do that. People will often ask me, well, why is it so important for leaders to show vulnerability? You know, why, why do you want to draw that out? What's so important about some founder being vulnerable on your show?

• 24:30Guy Raz?

  Why does that make them a better leader? And sometimes I have a hard time answering that question. I think I know the answers, but I have a hard time answering that question. What's your answer to that question?

• 24:41Speaker 01

  Well, I have two answers. One is internal. When you know yourself and you know that you can be vulnerable, you have self-awareness. And we have 40 years of data showing that emotionally intelligent people are better leaders. They just are. When you know what's going to set you off, when you know what makes you anxious, when you know that something's going to trigger your anxiety in a negotiation and maybe lead to a worse outcome, you're going to get a better outcome because you're not going to get triggered as much. To me, it's just simple. When you understand yourself, you're better, right? And people respond to people who understand themselves, who have empathy, and who aren't fake.

• 25:26Speaker 01

  I mean, I think at the end of the day, people throughout this pandemic have been scared to pretend like things aren't a mess. But the truth is, we all know it's a mess. You can't pretend otherwise. And so I don't want to be led by someone who pretends like things are perfect. I have no trust in that person. No. And so a little bit of vulnerability goes a long way. Now, you need competence. Amy Cuddy has done this research.

• 25:56Speaker 01

  Competence and vulnerability is the ideal mix of what people want to see in their leaders.

• 26:01Guy Raz?

  Yeah, no, I love that. And thank you for that. That's a great answer. I want to get to some questions. We have a bunch of questions, and they're all so good. So I want you to get to as many as possible. This is from Grazia via LinkedIn, and Grazia asks, how do passionate entrepreneurs who are introverts, how do they become successful when so much of the customer adoption and venture funding is about engagement and pitching and things like that?

• 26:26Speaker 01

  Again, it's a skill. So I think that really narrowing down and practicing is really important. People make fun of having an elevator pitch, but I think all of us can agree that that's one of the hardest things in life to do. But you've got to put that work in upfront. And then, once you know it, it's muscle memory, and you got it. You've got it. And then, as soon as you can, hire people around you, right? Hire someone who just loves to go out and schmooze. But don't ever think that the fact that you get nervous before you go talk to people, and you want to throw up, and you want to hide in the bathroom, means that you can't be a successful entrepreneur, because every successful entrepreneur feels that way.

• 27:06Guy Raz?

  Do you know what, Grazia? Do you know what? I'm going to tell you something. I get nervous all the time. I've been on the radio for 25 years. I still get nervous. My heart still starts to flutter when the red light goes on, the mic light goes on. It still happens. I'm not exaggerating. Even before I do these, I still get nervous sometimes. I get nervous before I give speeches, before I have live shows, before the How I Built This Summit. I always get nervous. And what happens, what I find is, my heart races, and my pulse speeds up, and it lasts for about 10 or 15 seconds, and then it's gone. It feels like an eternity onstage. It feels like it's lasting forever, and it feels like everybody can see it,

• 27:50Guy Raz?

  but nobody can see it. Only you can see it and feel it. And once I really kind of realized and internalized that, I understood that it was just part of the deal, that I was going to get nervous, and I just had to get through it, and then it was going to pass.

• 28:03Speaker 01

  And I bet when you first started out, Guy, you might have been nervous for two weeks beforehand.

• 28:06Guy Raz?

  Oh, my God. I was taking breathing classes. The first time I hosted Talk of the Nation, which was an old NPR live show back, this is back in 2008, a national live show, I was so nervous for six weeks. I was doing yoga every day and breathing exercises. I couldn't sleep for six weeks. So I remember that.

• 28:24Speaker 01

  But you but you work through it and you persist. And I think that that's that's the lesson and that builds builds resilience.

• 28:32Guy Raz?

  Yeah, totally. All right, more questions. This is from Joseph McCarthy. What are your best coping mechanisms and systems that help you manage the overwhelming aspects of entrepreneurship?

• 28:45Speaker 01

  Team. I learned, even though I'm an introvert and I love to be alone and I work alone and I have since 2006, that if I feel alone, I fail and I go hide under my covers and ignore and avoid, and that is death. Every successful entrepreneur knows if you avoid problems, they explode. So I had to learn that I needed someone early on and it was going to cost me money that I probably needed in other places to help me not feel alone and to take on the things that were scary. For example, when we when we had that, oh, my gosh, we've lost 30% of our business overnight

• 29:27Speaker 01

  in March this year, it was my partner who showed me an Excel spreadsheet and said, you know what, let's adjust the forecast. We can do this. I was a wreck. I was having panic attacks and she showed me an Excel spreadsheet and it was OK. So think about what makes you feel more in control and more held. It could be other people. It could be advisors, could be hiring staff.

• 29:53Guy Raz?

  Totally agree. It's and this is why we often talk about find your co-founder, you know, because many of the people who come on the show actually did have a co-founder, but we're only interviewing them. But having a co-founder or people around you, a team around you, or people that you can rely on or a partner, somebody who can just, you know, has a different perspective. Get on the balcony, right? Ron Heifetz at Harvard Kennedy School used to talk about getting on the balcony and looking down at yourself and taking stock of the situation. This is a question from Anthony Simon via LinkedIn. Anthony writes, I have struggled with anxiety and introversion throughout my career, especially at networking events. I know that. Feeling, Anthony, are there any tools or suggestions for managing these feelings?

• 30:38Guy Raz?

  Or like, say you're in a networking event and you're just, you know, you're standing there alone. And I've been to conferences, TED conferences and other conferences where I'm like, I don't know anybody. And this is, you know, before I did How I Built This and nobody knew who I was. And I was just there, standing around. How do you approach people? How do you start conversations with people at these events?

• 31:00Speaker 01

  You walk up to them and you say hi and you smile. Honestly, what brings you here? My, my friend Alison Shapiro, who's a great speech coach, her advice is all you have to say is, what brings you here? And let the other person do the work. Don't overthink it. You do not need to give a Nobel Prize speech in your very first hello at a networking event. And the other thing I would say is, if it's causing you that much pain, leave. I mean, the fact, I think a lot of us also think, and when we're entrepreneurs, that if we leave the event, we're missing out on our big VC funding or our big seed round.

• 31:40Speaker 01

  You're not. If it's causing you that much internal pain, go home, write some killer blog, get it placed, do something on LinkedIn, find your channel that works for you.

• 31:54Guy Raz?

  All right. This is a very, very specific question. I think a really important question. It's from Christine Marie Malari. Christine Marie asks, for women hopping on their first Zoom call with, you know, that important person, like, let's say, an investor or some, you know, somebody they're pitching, should I wear makeup or not? And Christine Marie says she read from a study that too much makeup actually makes you look inauthentic.

• 32:19Speaker 01

  I think it's about your brand. As an entrepreneur, if you're pitching, you need to have a good idea of what your persona is. I think that that's really important. And if you're a socially anxious entrepreneur, can really help you. I have known many women entrepreneurs and part of their brand was red lipstick. And they were like, this who I am. I wear red lipstick. Some women don't wear any makeup. But what I like to think about is, what is the holistic brand that I want to present? And that should be who the investor meets. If you have never worn makeup in your life, don't wear false eyelashes in your first investor meeting.

• 33:02Speaker 01

  So really, it's about what kind of CEO do I want to present to the world?

• 33:06Guy Raz?

  And Chris and Marie, we did an episode with Melissa Butler of The Lip Bar just a couple of weeks ago. Such a cool story. It's a cosmetics brand, and she talks about this, about how, I'm kind of paraphrasing what you said, but it's not about wearing makeup for the sake of wearing makeup. It's about feeling powerful, in whatever way that makes you feel powerful. If it's wearing some lipstick or nothing at all, it's how it makes you feel. And I thought that was a really important perspective. So you might want to check out that episode of How I Built This with Melissa Butler. Thank you for that question. We have time for one or two more. Let's get a question from Claire Murashima. Hello, Claire. Claire asks, where do you draw the line between vulnerability and oversharing for somebody who is experiencing anxiety?

• 33:51Speaker 01

  I have a little saying that a therapist friend of mine told me. No on-camera meltdowns. Leave the mess at home for your therapist, right? You could say to your team, I really want to run through these numbers because the economy is very uncertain, and I want to make sure that we have a good handle in the next six months. They don't need to know that money makes you anxious because of your parents' divorce, which frankly, money makes me anxious because of my parents' divorce. But that's my brand. So I think it's really about, again, thinking through being strong and vulnerable, and how much am I comfortable

• 34:30Speaker 01

  with? But I think that oversharing in the social media age is a temptation that a lot of entrepreneurs might feel, actually, because a lot of our favorite entrepreneurs do seem to be able to share a lot, right? When they get on Guy's show, but they've already made their billion dollars, you know? And I think that it's really important not to show the mess. So practice vulnerability with not the mess.

• 34:55Guy Raz?

  This is a question from Raven by YouTube. Raven asks, how do you manage energy levels? Raven is an introvert with bipolar tendencies. There are times when Raven's energy is absolutely through the roof and then times where they just tank through the floor. How do you manage your energy?

• 35:15Speaker 01

  Well, I have the same. I get a little manic. So when you're a little manic and you're on Zoom, for example, having a prop. My friend Anne Chauquette actually showed me this one. When I get too fidgety, have a prop in your hand that you can sort of fidget with or have a fidget. When you're feeling like your energy is very low, I think it's really important to shut down the screens and get some fresh air and do some belly breathing. Put your feet on the floor and breathe, not in your chest, which is where we hold anxiety. Breathe in your belly.

• 35:47Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 35:48Speaker 01

  Really try to center it and redirect the energy. And if alone time is what you need, take alone time.

• 35:55Guy Raz?

  Yep. And I would add to that, Raven, you've heard this a million times. I'm so sorry that I'm repeating this for the millions and once the time. Exercise. I hate exercise, Maura, but I do it every day. I've done it every day for forever. I get out of bed, I'm like, today I'm just not going to do it. And I do it. And it's great because that actually has a huge impact on regulating my energy over the course of the day.

• 36:22Speaker 01

  Well, Guy, and real talk, I have depression as well. And so I have some days when it's hard for me to get out of bed when I feel really, my mood is so low. And I know, and I'll say just 10 minutes, Maura, just 10 minutes. It's like that mood flip. It's like endorsing someone on LinkedIn. When you are an anxious, depressive entrepreneur, you get very good at having little hacks.

• 36:43Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 36:44Speaker 01

  And a little bit of heart rate raising is really one of them.

• 36:47Guy Raz?

  Before I let you go, Maura, this year, I mean, your business, a big part of your business is, as you mentioned, conferences and being part of conferences and helping organize them. How are you building in resilience within yourself and your business and what you do to make sure that you can get through 2021 stronger and wiser and better at what you do?

• 37:14Speaker 01

  So Guy, I'm proud to tell you that I gave out bonuses to my team yesterday. That we had an amazing year because although I was an anxious wreck when we lost the live event business, my team, who are empowered, said, we're going to figure this out. What kind of content do we want right now? We did over 25 live events that reached over 500,000 people. And we created real entertainment for people that met the moment. And so my lesson going into 2021 is to get out of their way and really remember that we're all in this together and that our clients were right there with us.

• 37:58Speaker 01

  I had to manage my anxiety and let them do what they did. And that helped me build so much resilience because I learned, like, just because I feel this way doesn't mean it's true. My team is great.

• 38:10Guy Raz?

  That's an excerpt from my live conversation with Maura Ehrens-Mealy, founder of Women Online and host of the Anxious Achiever podcast. To see our full live interview, you can go to facebook.com/HowIBuiltThis. And if you want to see all of our past live interviews, you can find them there or at youtube.com/NPR. If you want to find out more about the How I Built This Resilience series or other virtual NPR events, you can go to nprpresents.org. This episode was produced by Liz Metzger with help from Farah Safari, Jacey Howard, Bruce Grant, Al Mannion, Gianna Capadona, John Isabella, Julia Carney, Neva Grant, and Jeff Rogers. Thanks for listening. Stay safe and I'll see you in the new year.

• 38:53Guy Raz?

  I'm Guy Raz and you've been listening to How I Built This Resilience Edition from NPR.