Mike White

Mike White is a writer, director, producer, and actor best known as the creator of HBO’s acclaimed series The White Lotus. He began his career writing and producing TV shows, including Dawson’s Creek and Freaks and Geeks, and later wrote and acted in films such as School of Rock and Nacho Libre. Premiering in 2021, The White Lotus has received widespread critical acclaim across its seasons with numerous Emmy and Golden Globe nominations for drama series, writing, directing, and acting categories. His career, spanning three decades, is defined by a consistent focus on character, tone, and social observation across film and television. ------ Thank you to the sponsors that fuel our podcast and our team: AG1 https://DrinkAG1.com/tetra ------ Squarespace https://Squarespace.com/tetra Use code 'TETRA' ------ LMNT Electrolytes https://DrinkLMNT.com/tetra Use code 'TETRA' ------ Athletic Nicotine https://www. AthleticNicotine.com/tetra Use code 'TETRA' ------ Sign up to receive Tetragrammaton Transmissions https://www.tetragrammaton.com/join-newsletter

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:24Speaker 00

  I did have like my past lives. This whole past life thing where they you do your past life. It's Shirley MacLaine was a friend of mine. She was like, she made me go to New Mexico and I did this for like five days. And like, the past lives are all about like, so much of it is about how you died. Like, how each, well, at least this is what this one thing was like. And how much, how you end it has to do with what you're still dealing with. And that like, like the end is important. And like, and in fact, like in this, this, I mean, I'm not, I'm not cosigning on this, but I, but this was just the philosophy was that like, you know, they use light, some kind of like color therapy or whatever.

• 1:06Speaker 00

  So that like, you remember the death and then like you think of a color and then the color somehow heals or like somehow it provides some kind of catharsis. So that then that death is sort of lifted off of you. So you're not like still dealing with the fallout from the death or whatever. So it's just, yeah, I mean, whether you believe that or not, it's just like as a storyteller, it makes sense that like, you know, you're always trying to figure out what is the satisfying ending for your story? Like, what is the conclusion? Yeah. And you think about life as this journey to death. I want for my friends and I want for my family and I want for myself a cushy, like a, you know, like a soft landing.

• 1:50Speaker 00

  I don't want to like, you know, it's like you, it's like as you get older and you experience more people dying, there's very few deaths that aren't kind of grim. Or that they, you know, you go through, the process of dying is also a, it's a part, you know, it's, it's about loss. You lose things along the way. I mean, especially when you're young and Healthy, you look at that and be like, oh my God, this is like so depressing, do you mean? Because you see people lose their hearing, their ability to like control their bowels. Of all these things that are some sort of humiliation. But I guess, but maybe as you actually experience those things. Maybe that's a part of letting go of this life, you know, like it's like getting used to the idea of losing someone.

• 2:32Speaker 00

  They you slowly lose them, you know, you can run from those bad feelings, but they they'll find you.

• 2:38Rick Rubin?

  Have you had any people close to you pass?

• 2:41Speaker 00

  I mean, I, yeah, I've I've had a pretty good run as far as in general. Not had like major tragedies. My parents are still alive. I've had friends that have in the last couple of years, but I haven't been knocked on my knees over something like.

• 3:00Rick Rubin?

  How did you meet Shirley MacLaine?

• 3:03Speaker 00

  Shirley MacLaine I met at a party and like I I was just, you know, like I was a fan, so I started talking to her and then like. She was always like trying to get me to do. She I was always interested because I knew she, you know, I knew she was into metaphysical stuff, so I was always like trying to pick her brain. Yeah, she was like out, you know, out on a limb and I mean, she is like. Next level as far as just like somebody who's known. You know, beyond just like as a movie star, like, you know, known all these big characters over all these decades. But like she also knew like spiritual leaders and political leader. I mean, she was very like she had like tentacles into all of these different worlds. And was like, you know, she's a primary source.

• 3:44Speaker 00

  So she's a trip. So it would have been anyway, like I would always bug her about it. She'd be like, I'm not talking about this anymore. You're gonna have to give your past lives done. And so like she said it all up, but yeah, so she's.

• 3:52Rick Rubin?

  Tell me how it started. You went to a place to do this?

• 3:56Speaker 00

  Yeah, she was like, so in Galvesta, New Mexico, there's this place called the Light. I don't even know if it still exists, but there's a place called the Light Institute and it like literally looks like a janky. B movie, like sci fi movie from the like sixties or something like the buildings are all like totally kook. And like, and everybody looks, you know, like the woman who did it, she has like shock, white hair and blue eyes. And like I got I got there and they were like, oh yeah, you know, they're talking, they all have seen extraterrestrials. She's like, you know, it used to be exciting. Now I just see them and I just leave them alone. I don't care. You know, it's like, I'm just not that guy. I I'm curious, but I'm not, I'm I'm a skeptic or whatever. And then they put me in this.

• 4:39Speaker 00

  Like circular room with all these animal pellets and like bongo drums and like it was super hot and I had partied the night before. I had come to Galveston, I was like, I think I was coming off of like an Adderall bit, I don't know what. So like I was in this thing and I was like, it was like I was being cooked in a tan jean or something. Like I was so hot.

• 4:58Rick Rubin?

  Was it a sweat lodge?

• 4:59Speaker 00

  Well, she was, I was just waiting to go in there, but it was just hot outside and I was in this thing and I was just like, I was probably dehydrated or whatever. By the time I got in there and was on the bed, I was like, I was like the perfect way to go. Cause I was just so open and brain like, you know, like brain rot anyway. So I was just like, ready to go. Like the first time that I was with this woman, it wasn't about past lives. It was just about memories of this life where she would say, connect with certain parts of yourself. And I had never done anything like that where I was thinking about memories that I hadn't had, you know, like I really hadn't unpacked since I was a little kid and crying and not in a sat, just like having this like really intense relationship to the child self. And I was like, I came out of it. I was like, this

• 5:43Speaker 00

  is like, it was so cathartic. And I was like completely sobbing and like, and I, and so then I signed up to do the five days. So I like just did that one little session and then I was like, okay, I'm in it. And then I went back and I was like, this is like, it was like a second date and you're like, why did I think that first day was so good? And it was like, how am I gonna get through this? Like I was just, it was so awkward. And then, but it was actually really formative in some way. And I had, I came home and like, if you go to my house now, there's paintings of all the different past life. I had this artist do the lives. And so there's all of these different lives done in the stuff. So like if it's a Japanese life, it's like done in these kind of Japanese prints. And it's like, and so like, yeah, I just, I love, I don't, whether I believe in past lives

• 6:24Speaker 00

  or not, I love the idea of not being too attached to your form, that you are this, you're part of this protean creation and you're coming into the world in this form, but this is not you. And that you've, you've been all these other forms. You've been a Cuban woman, or you've been a Chinese, you know, leader or, and so that this self that you have is not intrinsic to yourself. You know what I mean? It's a Buddhist kind of, or whatever. It's like a, you know, it's a eastern sort of philosophy. And I think that that is, whether it's true, it's helpful. And I think it's also a way to experience others to.

• 7:08Speaker 00

  See them in this, you know, that they are you. And then these elements that feel like they're, you know, these inherited elements or that, that we find to be othering or whatever, that really that's just, it's just yourself in a different form.

• 7:23Rick Rubin?

  Do you feel changed by that experience?

• 7:30Speaker 00

  Yeah, I don't know if it changed me in the sense of like, I am, you know, I was a believer or something, but I, I felt like, it's a powerful analogy that I still like draw on. You know, sometimes like I'll watch some Ken Burns documentary and then they'll have the old, like I was watching the American Revolution. They have like these first person accounts of like being in the American Revolution and like the fight. And they put on the Fife drums and they put the like, the music. And there's, there's moments where I'm like, I don't know whether it's just the artistry or just like, I'm just like, I'm like, I am there. Like I am also in like this sense of like the universality of experience and that you can transcend time, you can transcend the self. But like, those things are accessible in some way.

• 8:13Speaker 00

  And that as you go into this dream state at night, every night, it's like you're, you're creating new selves and you're connecting with old selves. And, you know, it's like, again, it's like, do I believe it? Like in the, because I would go to Shirley MacLaine and I'd be like, you know, some of it I feel like is, is really uncanny and some of it I feel like I'm making up. She's like, it happened to you. She's like a very like, it's like a fundamentalist Christian, but like, she's like a fundamentalist, like, you know? And I am not a fundamentalist, but like, I do think there's just something about it that is, there's some things that are just inexplicable where you just have these like emotional, I'm sure you've had, I mean, you're as a art, you know, like that's part of what art is, is like, vibing into something that you didn't think you'd ever vibe into.

• 8:55Speaker 00

  And you're suddenly dropped down into some other person's thing. And you're like, this feels so familiar, you know what I mean?

• 9:03Rick Rubin?

  Do you have that from art too? Like if you watch a movie, do you see yourself in a movie or no?

• 9:11Speaker 00

  It's hard as I, I don't know how you feel about like as I get older, I, I don't really like to watch things as much as I used to. When I was a kid, I just consumed everything and like, it really is hard for me to go see anything anymore or, or like try to, it's like I, I feel often trapped inside art or like it feels claustrophobic in certain kinds of experiences. Like sometimes I'll get like, there'll be some amazing movie or something and I'll just feel really lit up.

• 9:42Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 9:42Speaker 00

  But often, you know, it's like often I don't even give it a chance because I'm just like, I, it's, I don't know. It's, I feel like I, I like creating. If it's a friend's something, I want to be a part of that. But like, I don't know, I'm just, it's like, I just feel like I've given so much time to watching things that I feel like I don't. You know, I did it, I think when I was young to try to learn and steal and like, you know what I mean? Like, and I was, of course, obviously that's why I chose it. I was completely engaged and, and the spark was, I, I was, I was really into seeing the stuff. But like, I've gotten to be more, it's like, I just don't want to give it more time than I want to. Cause it's just, there's so much shit.

• 10:25Rick Rubin?

  What are the kind of things that you watched as a kid?

• 10:29Speaker 00

  Well, it's funny because I was from a religious household and so like a lot of things that we couldn't, we didn't really watch. So like, there were a couple of movies that were taped off TV. Like, I think that like, I can name them, like The Poseidon Adventure, Fiddler on the Roof, fricking, I don't know, like probably Oliver, you know, like some, and I would just watch them like 500 times. Like I would reenact The Poseidon Adventure in my backyard, like on the rag, whether I had friends or by myself. Like I remember like, I, I like did a redo of Airport 77 at my second grade on the bleachers and got everybody to like be one of the dead people in Airport 77.

• 11:13Speaker 00

  So there was just like a couple, I don't know, I like disaster movies and I liked. Flipping, I guess, certain musicals like Fiddler on the Roof or something like Fiddler on the Roof. I still was like, best movie. I love Fiddler on the Roof for some reason.

• 11:27Rick Rubin?

  And then, how would you say your taste developed over time?

• 11:32Speaker 00

  Well, so my, so yeah, my, my family was religious and, and but my dad was a professor at a seminary of audiovisuals. So he was actually, he, and he wrote like movie criticism for Christianity Today. So it was like, he would watch movies, but all these through this sort of theological Christian lens.

• 11:53Rick Rubin?

  Would he talk about it with you?

• 11:55Speaker 00

  Yeah. So like, there was this, this idea of using movies as a way to talk about ethics and talk about the value system of a movie or the, the hero's journey through a sort of Christian lens, which I think has definitely impact, obviously impacted me. But then I also, in second grade, I had a teacher was Sam Shepard, the playwright. His mother was my second grade teacher. So she was like, and she was a cool lady and I was into her and she was really obviously proud of her son. And so she, so like, when I was pretty young, I started like reading Sam Shepard plays. And then I realized that that was a career that people had.

• 12:36Speaker 00

  And then, yeah, I was just always a little, then I started like writing little plays and I was just, yeah, a little weird creative kid. I remember I got the record of Who's Afraid, I mean, I was pretty young, like Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf? And I would listen to it and follow along. I just liked the way the plays, like, you know, it's like, it's funny how when you're a kid, little things just get, have, there's some, like Freud would say like a cathex or some kind of erotic charge. Not even like he would access it as an erotic thing, but like something that would just really like just float your boat. Turn you on, exactly. I, I really liked just how the words would land on the page and how it was like this kind of like, it was kind of like, you know, I guess as a musician where you see notes and, you know, you just like, like to see how

• 13:20Speaker 00

  the music relates to the notes and like orchestrating that, you know, and it's like.

• 13:25Rick Rubin?

  Was it about the words on the page or was it about? The performance of those words.

• 13:30Speaker 00

  It's like, it's a connection. It's like, I really liked to see the words on the page and then see how it like was translated into sound and how, but yeah, I guess even when I was a kid, I used to walk around with like little note cards with just words. I just loved words. And so like, there was just something about, it was like, you know, it's like an incantation or like, you're like, it's like, yeah, there's something about putting words together.

• 13:53Rick Rubin?

  Would you write the cards yourself?

• 13:55Speaker 00

  No, they were like, basically learning how to, you know, know words, you know what I mean? But I was just like really into the words and just, I don't know, it was just like, and I, when I was little, I was OCD and had more like, so every word had seven letters or any word, you know, you're just counting the letters. I was just, you know what I mean? It was like, it was like a kind of like a, I was just a word, word person.

• 14:15Rick Rubin?

  That's cool.

• 14:16Speaker 00

  Yeah, I mean, I think there's just some people are, yeah, it's like, it's just like music. Some people are really into music or like math, you have numbers.

• 14:23Rick Rubin?

  And would you read a lot in general?

• 14:25Speaker 00

  Yeah, I was really into reading when I was a kid. I was, yeah, I was big on reading and.

• 14:29Rick Rubin?

  Any particular fiction, nonfiction?

• 14:31Speaker 00

  Plays and I, I liked, I mean, my parents were educated people and were, are very smart. They were in this world of like Christian, you know, it's like, and so like, I was like, and for, I don't know why, but like I had got a subscription to The New Yorker. I started reading Pauline Kaelberg. I was just like, I was, I'm some classic like weird, precocious kid and I was like, you know, I was boring up in the fucking foothills of Eaton Canyon. And we, it was like, we, we roll and I, like, there were many kids around. We like go on the freaking, what do you call it? Like, we'd have like a wheelbarrow. We'd go down this thing and like, but then after that, I'd be like, okay. So like, I was just had this very like, you know, I, we had built out this sort of inner

• 15:14Speaker 00

  life of being interested in other thing, you know, like I was, so I, so yeah, I, I spent a lot of time reading and.

• 15:22Rick Rubin?

  Do you have brothers and sisters?

• 15:23Speaker 00

  I have a sister, yeah.

• 15:24Rick Rubin?

  Older or younger?

• 15:25Speaker 00

  She's older and she's a teacher now in the same area that I grew up in.

• 15:28Rick Rubin?

  What was your relationship with her like?

• 15:32Speaker 00

  I mean, it's complicated. I mean, she's, I mean, she, we're, she's adopted and, and I'm not. And we were just, we were very close in age, but very just different. We're just, just different.

• 15:45Rick Rubin?

  Was she adopted before you came or after?

• 15:47Speaker 00

  Yeah. So my mom had like six miscarriages and then, then they adopted my sister. And then she got pregnant and then had me and I was the only kid.

• 15:55Rick Rubin?

  I see.

• 15:55Speaker 00

  So my sister's great. She's awesome, but like, it was definitely like, we, it wasn't like she, we had overlapping interests or, you know, she wasn't like a, yeah, we weren't concocting stuff together, really.

• 16:07Rick Rubin?

  How much older was she?

• 16:09Speaker 00

  Nine months.

• 16:10Rick Rubin?

  Oh, so very close.

• 16:12Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 16:12Rick Rubin?

  Interesting. Let's talk about White Lotus a little bit. What do you think makes White Lotus different than other TV shows?

• 16:21Speaker 00

  It's a good question. I, I mean, I think one of the things that's different about White Lotus, and it's not necessarily the thing that is the reason why it's successful, or it's necessarily the reason why, I don't know, it's of interest, but it's, it's definitely, I think, why it's something that I enjoy keep doing it, which is like, because of the format, it's really just like, be following people over a week. There's something about that as a format that like, it's like, I wouldn't want to write something that's super plotty, you know? And at the same time, it's, I don't know, there's something about just like, because of the time element of it,

• 17:00Speaker 00

  it's like, leads to certain kinds of, it's like, it's in a way, it's, it is like little plays, but because there's this like, kind of conceit, there's this little hook, you know, that like, keeps, that, and this sort of propulsive hook.

• 17:16Rick Rubin?

  Does a whole season take place in a week?

• 17:18Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 17:19Rick Rubin?

  And when they would come out, would they come out one per week or did they come out as a group?

• 17:24Speaker 00

  They come out one per week. And I think something about it, because it's come out one a week, there's like, it starts with like, somebody, like, something bad is gonna happen. You don't know exactly, someone's gonna die, something bad. But then it's just following these people on vacation and it's like their little interests and, you know, it's like, it's sort of kind of like, very, it's very lo-fi in terms of like, there's not like, tons of stuff going on, but you just feel like it's all leading to like, I don't know, like, someone's gonna like, like a sac, like a human sacrifice or something. So it's, it's like, somehow it keeps people's interest, but like, it is, feels very like, Observational and more about, I don't know, there's something about it. I don't think there's many shows like that.

• 18:05Speaker 00

  Like it's like it because of its, it has its own formula that like, I think is, is fun for me because I really don't. I mean, I don't know. I don't know what I'm doing, period. But like, I like, it's just a funny, as somebody who's like written these character stuff that like referred to varying degrees of success and of interest to other people. Something about this is just like, kind of like landed in a way that is amusing because it's, it's the same thing I've always done, but there's just this kind of like, I, I honestly have no idea why it's a success. I, I'm happy that it is, but I don't, I was just, I've always been the same guy. And like some things explode and some things die by, die on the vine.

• 18:47Rick Rubin?

  Might not even have anything to do with it. It might have to do with just how it fits in the world in this moment in time.

• 18:53Speaker 00

  Exactly. Well, what the first season, it was like, it, we did it during COVID and then it came out when there wasn't a lot of product because people weren't able to make it because of all these things shutting down. So we were able to get it out and it just, I think because it just felt new, something new, like it just took on a life. And then I just think I was at the stage in my career where it was kind of like, if like I had been younger or at different times, I think I would have fucked it up. But like, I feel like, I mean, not to say like, what, you know, whatever. People can decide what, you know, it's like, everybody's gonna have their own opinion about, you know, this season was bad or this season's good or whatever. But like, I just, it's like the fact that I can actually like write them all and do them all.

• 19:34Speaker 00

  And like in the time that I, it's like, I feel like that's because I'm at this stage in my career where I'm like, I know how to do that, you know?

• 19:42Rick Rubin?

  How would it be different if the season was a feature film instead of a series?

• 19:47Speaker 00

  I think it's the, the cliffhanger of it. It's, it's, it's like, it's real. And you know, someone's, something bad is gonna have, like the people, by the end of the season, there's like a big froth of like people being like, I gotta know what happens. And that's, that's kind of fun as a writer to be like, yeah. And I think because it's dropped like once a week, it just, it becomes a conversation point between people. And so.

• 20:15Speaker 00

  It's like, it's fun to watch that in real time as people get like, you know, they're really like grappling with it.

• 20:21Rick Rubin?

  Do people have like fears about?

• 20:23Speaker 00

  Like TikTok, I mean, that's part of the, I think it's like in this world of like, social media interaction, for whatever reason, it's been one of those shows that people have really like engaged with, they dress up as the character, they literally, you know, they're doing impersonations of different, you know, like, so it's like that part is, you know, as like a creator, it's fun to see, it catches some imaginative fire in others and then they are creating stuff because of it and that, that's always cool.

• 20:54Rick Rubin?

  Do you remember where the original idea came from?

• 20:56Speaker 00

  I mean, bro, the truth is like, I'm not, I'm like, I'm a true hat. I mean, in the sense of like, I really am about the lifestyle. I'm like, I believe in art in a way, like, but I don't believe in it as a, like, I don't care about a legacy. I really don't care about, like, I don't even care if people like or watch my shit, to be honest, like, what I care about is like, if I'm able to go do, keep doing it and go, and, and so, so for me is like, I learned early on, like, and this sounds like a spoiled bitch, but like, it's just like, I don't want to do a show that I have to drive over the 405 to Disney. I don't want to go on a soundstage. I don't want to do

• 21:39Speaker 00

  that. I don't want to, like, it's like, I want to like, it's like, I want, like, I, I feel like I'm, am I getting too real? No, okay. This is real. I just like, I don't, like, I, you know, even the best, coolest thing, if you can still feel dead about it, do you know what I mean?

• 21:57Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 21:59Speaker 00

  So it's like, I, and I'm, I'm kind of like very sensitive to like feeling like, okay, this feels like a routine, or this feels like a job, or this feels like, you know what I mean? Like, I want to like, I, I like to see new places. I like to explore new cultures. And I, personally, I'm like, I know I'm, I can do this job. So it's not about whether I can do it or not. It's just like, is it cool? Like, do I really want to do this? And so TV. Like, this is one where I'm like, so maybe I just follow a couple on their honeymoon. And like, just then like, go to Sri Lanka and we'll shoot the thing and then they'll go to the Maldives. And I'm like, trying to think like, what is the sounds like the most freaking fun? You know what I mean? And so, the problem was COVID.

• 22:42Speaker 00

  I was like, oh, I have this, I always had this idea of like, a couple on a honeymoon. And then they would, you know, you realize in, you know, because I went on like Amazing Race. And you realize when you're on these trips that these like, you know, like, if you and I are hanging out here for a week, I'll know this Rick Rubin. But if you and I are then suddenly sent on a trip somewhere and we're like, having to like, deal with like cab drivers and whatever, I'll see a different Rick Rubin, just same with me. Yeah. So like, I just thought that that's an interesting, you start with a couple who's all really into themselves. And then they go on this trip and then they realize who they married and whatever. So, so I was like, that'd be fun because then we could travel around and do all this, you know, it's like, but then I,

• 23:24Speaker 00

  because of COVID, I was like, no, we have to just do it in one place. We'll follow different people on the trip and then, and, and, and I just, at the time, I was just like, I didn't want to go back to TV, but like, I was so bored during COVID. And it was like, I was literally, I was driving around the West with my dog and I was like, this, I mean, this is cool, but like, I'm like, ready to do something. So like, I did the show and then like, then I'm like, oh, well, each season we could go somewhere new. We go Thailand, we go to Japan, we could go to like. Have any of the shows done that? Not in this way, not in this, I mean, I don't think, I mean, maybe, but I. There was no model that you based it on? No, no, no. And it's like, really was just like this fantasy of mine to always be able to keep growing both as a writer and a creator or whatever.

• 24:08Speaker 00

  But also like, you know, having that, that even if the show was a turd, that like, the experience of going to make a show in like Sicily, you're gonna have, yeah, something's gonna come cool out of that. You're gonna meet, and, and also, you know, you, whenever you're traveling, you always want to like, you want to be more than just. Sightseeing, you know what I mean? You wanna like have sex with the land or you know what I mean? Or like you just wanna get involved with the people in some way that's more like, you know, legit or like where you're really getting something, you know what I mean? And so like that, that part of it is cush. So I, so yeah, so I'm, I like this idea. I'm happy to keep doing this and now they're paying me. It's like, it's like this is probably, I'm just gonna finish this and then I'm gonna, I don't know.

• 24:50Speaker 00

  I'm probably, I'm probably not gonna keep working. I don't know.

• 24:55Rick Rubin?

  I don't know, but you described driving around with your dog.

• 24:58Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 24:58Rick Rubin?

  That's, that's what it would feel like if you stopped working.

• 25:01Speaker 00

  Yeah, maybe. I just feel like it's like, it's just weird how it's like, yeah, I don't know how I'll feel. But I'm, I'm getting older. It's like, I'm, I'm like, I don't, I, I like, I'm starting to like the resort life. Like you wake up, you go to the gym, you eat some food, you go play some tennis, you eat some food. What else do you do? I don't know, but it seems fun. It just like this whole thing of like, I mean, it's like, it's like, I know I'm good. I can do this. I mean, and when I say I'm good at it, I'm like, I can actually just do it. It doesn't mean I'm, you know, whatever.

• 25:35Rick Rubin?

  It doesn't mean anyone will like it.

• 25:36Speaker 00

  I'm not, yeah.

• 25:37Rick Rubin?

  But you can finish the project.

• 25:38Speaker 00

  Exactly, which is more than some people can do. So that's something. So like, but, but yeah, I don't, I don't know. I, I, I sometimes wrestle with that. I mean, I know that you are Mr. Creative and keep the, you know, it's like you, it's all about. But I, but there's a part of me is like, do I really wanna always just be creative?

• 25:59Speaker 00

  Maybe I just wanna eat and play tennis.

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• 28:23Rick Rubin?

  How's it different when you write something if you don't direct it?

• 28:29Speaker 00

  Then it's like you're just kind of working to figure out how to manipulate the director and doing it the way you want. It's like, or not manipulate, but just like, you know, you're trying to, you know, because I didn't really want to.

• 28:42Rick Rubin?

  Tell me.

• 28:42Speaker 00

  I didn't really want to direct it in the beginning because I don't really like managing people, you know? It's like, I'm not, I, I sort of, I've only built a knack for that over, you know, I started, the first time I directed, I was like in my late 30s, so I really waited a while. And I'd had a lot of stuff made before that, so it was like, I was really kind of like hovering.

• 29:07Rick Rubin?

  And were you looking forward to getting that chance or no?

• 29:09Speaker 00

  No, it was just more like, I just got, over time, I was just like, ugh, I just, it's like, it would just be easier for me to just go do it and interpret it myself than to keep trying to like, sit on set and be like, are you sure you want to do it? You know, like, whatever, are you sure you want to do like that? It's annoying.

• 29:25Rick Rubin?

  Sounds horrible.

• 29:26Speaker 00

  And it's also, it's annoying to other people and annoying me. So I don't feel like I'm one of those people where, like, I heard your interview with Woody Allen and the way he would talk about, it was like, I don't really, I don't enjoy it enough to say that that's, it's like something that I want to constantly be in the cycle of doing. I can relate to his, his like philosophy of like, it's better to spend your time thinking about problems that you can solve by making the art better than these existential things that you can't do much about. But at the same time, it's like, I feel like I'm in this idea of like, wanting to, just

• 30:11Speaker 00

  as a person, I want to. I don't know, like, I kind of feel like it's like goes back to what I was saying before is just like, sometimes creativity can be just a knee jerk reaction to things. You know what I mean? Like, or just not as creativity, but like, writing the script, it's like, I don't know what else to do, so I'll just do this again. Do you know what I mean? And it's like, I've always been afraid of not having enough money. Like, I've always used money as an excuse to keep doing things. And then at some point, you're just like, I can't use that as an excuse anymore. And what am I gonna like, I don't know, I'd be like to like push myself to try to find other ways to like grow beyond just this way of interacting.

• 30:53Speaker 00

  Especially when you're in charge, like, I get tired of being, I'm tired of my opinion being so meaningful to people and like having stuff and like suddenly everybody has to do. You know what I mean? I don't know, like, I'm.

• 31:05Rick Rubin?

  But it's only that for your stuff. It's not like you get to dictate what anyone else thinks about anything.

• 31:11Speaker 00

  No, yeah.

• 31:12Rick Rubin?

  You're just saying, this is how I see it.

• 31:13Speaker 00

  Yeah, but I've just been on this.

• 31:14Rick Rubin?

  And you get to share it.

• 31:15Speaker 00

  Yeah, so like, but like for five years now, it's just been, I've just been doing this nonstop. So like, I can't get off this bus, which is okay. I'm not complaining, but it's just like, at some point, I was just like, I'd like to just fuck off.

• 31:27Rick Rubin?

  And maybe you'll do that at some point and you'll either see, yes, this works for me, or hmm, can't wait to get back.

• 31:33Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. I had a question for you, which is like, when you're dealing with all these people, do you ever feel like you're, because it's like, to me, I think that when I think about you, and obviously I'm impressed by you and and always have been for a long time. Like, as you approach each artist, like getting in, like mind melding and getting in their head, is there a part of you feels like not, because you're not a con artist, because you're not actually, you're not stealing anything. You're actually, you're enhancing everything that they're doing. But there is a con, is there a con game element to it? Is there like a confidence game that like is like, are you, are you doing something kind of a guru?

• 32:14Rick Rubin?

  Confidence is part of it. Which is if I'm working with an artist who does something that I see is great. And I see that they're insecure about it, which most artists are. I can have the confidence for them that they don't have for themselves. And it helps get them over the line.

• 32:31Speaker 00

  There, yeah. Just because sometimes it's like with actors, I like, I have all these actors on the show. And you're trying to get the best out of each person and da, da, da. And like, but you, there is something about it where I'm like, I, I feel like I'm like, you know, my personality and my persona becomes massaged by this job that I have. Do you know what I mean? Where I'm there to, you know, like.

• 32:55Rick Rubin?

  You treat people nicer than you would normally do?

• 32:57Speaker 00

  Well, it's just like, well, yeah, knowing which people are sensitive and you need to be gentle here. Which people need to be challenged.

• 33:06Rick Rubin?

  That's true in life, though. That's how we treat the people around us.

• 33:10Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's just, it's like a part of me, you go, you go like, is this, is this? How does that end up affecting my, myself by being always thinking about people through that prism? Do you know what I mean?

• 33:26Rick Rubin?

  Interesting. Never thought about it that way.

• 33:28Speaker 00

  In a way, it's a very, it makes you move out forward into the world. It's like you are, you were trying to have a very, because especially with art, like you're having the most, you're, you're going into like a deep, it's like, you know, it's, it's not sex, but it's as bad as, it could be as intimate as that.

• 33:47Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 33:47Speaker 00

  And you're getting at people in their most vulnerable, you know, spot. And you're, you're fucking in there. You know what I mean? And what's cool about it is that you're actually generating these relationships. And you're, you're reaching out into, into them in a way that like, you know, some people wouldn't dare to go. You know what I mean? So it's like you're, you're spreading out. But it also, like, I just wonder then, the power you have, like, it's like, you know, it's a powerful thing. You know, especially artists, you know, they want to be seen. And, and you're, you're telling them that you see them, like you just said, like, I see you, I see in something even more than you even see yourself, which is like a head trip. You know what I mean?

• 34:29Rick Rubin?

  Yeah, a lot of it is psychological.

• 34:33Rick Rubin?

  And helping someone unlock themselves. So it's therapy, essentially.

• 34:38Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 34:39Rick Rubin?

  Do you feel like you lose yourself in the process?

• 34:41Speaker 00

  No, it's just more like I I find it very. It's like I I maybe I just feel a little more burdened by it because it's like it's sometimes. I don't know what it's like over time, like, you know, what happens in all these relationships? Like, you you sort of feel like sometimes with actors, you feel like like they're dolls on the shelf waiting to be played with and they need you to come and play with them. And then you're playing with them and then, you know, then you leave. It's like Puff the Magic Dragon or something like they're waiting for you at the cave. And then there's this sort of feeling of like wanting to. It's almost like you have a bunch of girlfriends that you're stringing along in some way. Well, I mean, not really, but it's and it's not.

• 35:22Speaker 00

  Again, I don't have some like, I don't have an agenda, but it's sort of like, I feel like I've dropped. Like, there's a lot of people where I'm like, you know, like, like, I've done that where I like showcase a certain person's talent and then you move on to other people. And then they're left feeling like you, you know, you you walked away from. I don't know, I guess it's like this, you know, I maybe it's because I'm just more neurotic or something. I just like feel safer not. I it's just like I hate letting people down.

• 35:49Rick Rubin?

  Same.

• 35:50Speaker 00

  And it weighs on me sometimes.

• 35:52Rick Rubin?

  Same.

• 35:53Speaker 00

  So it's almost like I won't do this anymore. And then then it's like all fair and free and whatever. I will. But I I do think that like there's something beautiful about the relationship and you're also like in the month. It's, yeah, it doesn't have to be some kind of heavy trip.

• 36:10Rick Rubin?

  And did you ever pitch a TV series before White Lotus?

• 36:14Speaker 00

  I was I I started on TV shows. So the first show I ever worked on was the show Dawson's Creek. And then I did Freaks and Geeks with Judd Apatow and. And then I started creating my own shows, but like I.

• 36:26Rick Rubin?

  And you worked on Dawson Creek, was that as a writer?

• 36:28Speaker 00

  Yeah, I was a writer.

• 36:29Rick Rubin?

  And was it in a writer's room or did you write by yourself?

• 36:31Speaker 00

  There was more writers around, but the nature of that show, like Freaks and Geeks that I did with Joe, that was more of a writer's room. People like pitch on stuff, but with that show, you just kind of write on your own and then come together and, you know. But I, I was never somebody who liked to write with other people or liked writer's rooms or, or that stuff. And then I did a show or I was like, something was very fast. I was always like fast, but like I did a show where I basically had a nervous breakdown and I was, like, I was like, I was too much. So I had like a mental breakdown. I was put in a hospital, which I escaped from and like, it was like.

• 37:09Rick Rubin?

  That was the show where that really happened?

• 37:11Speaker 00

  That really happened.

• 37:11Rick Rubin?

  I see.

• 37:12Speaker 00

  So I was, it was, it was kind of dramatic. And so I was just like very afraid to go back and do TV again. Cause I just was, it was just the pressure of it was too much for me.

• 37:22Rick Rubin?

  Just because of the schedule?

• 37:24Speaker 00

  Just because they've, you know, like, it was like one of those things where like, I was like, you know, it was like Molly Shannon, Jason Schwartzman. And like, I had all my buddies doing it and like the network hated what I was doing. And it was just like, the work was just already itself was so hellish. Just like the amount of work was so much, just from the way I worked, cause I tried to write it all and do it all myself.

• 37:44Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 37:44Speaker 00

  And then just also the fighting. So it was like, I was, you know, the work itself.

• 37:49Rick Rubin?

  So the fighting wasn't about the work, but it was to get the work out.

• 37:52Speaker 00

  No, it was about the work. So like, it was hard enough for me to just do all the work. But then it was like a network that had been, it was like Fox. They had gone from like being married with children, like rowdy, bad kids network to American Idol at the time. And it was like, suddenly they were getting 30 million, you know, viewers a episode and they wanted you to retain those viewers. So they were having an identity crisis in there. So like they were, they went from being, cause I was this like, you know, kind of provocative indie guy that they had hired to do the show. And then they suddenly wanted like a family show that they could retain. And I was just like, I'm not, I can't pivot. I'm not good at that. I don't know what you think I can do. I can't do this.

• 38:35Speaker 00

  So I, so yeah, so it was just like classic case of them telling me this is what the audience wants. And then they tested both the show that I had done and then the show that I had like, this like, well, this freaking Frankenstein show that I had like, it had turned into, cause I like, you know, I was young and giving in on stuff and then. The original show tested great and the other and I'm like, you guys didn't even, you guys don't even know what you're doing. And so like I sent the email you're not supposed to send. I sent it to, I sent it to Brad. I'm sending everybody, like the head of the agencies. I was just like, I was like trying to get fired. And instead of getting fired, they like, Gail's in her office, like the head of the networks in her office. She's crying and, and, and we need the script for tomorrow. I was like, ah. Wow. And so I went to some shrink and I was like, he's like, are you having suicidal?

• 39:21Speaker 00

  I, I was, and I'm like, well, I mean, I, yeah, I want to throw myself in front of a bus, but like, that's not new. Well, that's, I mean, and then I'm like literally being checked into a mental hospital where like, I wouldn't have my own room. And, you know, it was just like, it was, and I was like, this is insane. So like, I'm like, fuck this. I'm running to the car. They're like, you're get the help you need. And they're like chasing me through the, you know, I'm like getting in my car. I'm driving on the freeway and like, the shrink has called the office and was like, Mike's not coming in. He's gonna go get the help he need. Like they basically told him I'm in a mental institution. Wow. And some other guy had just committed suicide. Wow. Writing a Mr. Ed, like we, for the same people. So they thought that they were like killing writers with their notes.

• 40:03Speaker 00

  So yeah, I was driving on the freeway and then I have like 15 messages. And there's all these executives and like producers that are crying on the phone, thinking I'm in a mental, you know, like, Oh, yeah. And they're like, and I was on my way back to work because I didn't know where else to go. And I was just like, okay, I shit the bed. I've totally shit the bed. And then the show got canceled. It was like a lesson of like, I'm not really made for that kind of stress. Like some people, like Judd, for example, was somebody I saw and he was, he went through stress. Like I saw him stress, but like, he was good at like, just, you know, pushing back and being a bitch back. And like, you know what I mean? Like it was like, he knew his worth. I mean, he knew what to say. I don't know how he knew, but like, he knew how to like fight.

• 40:46Speaker 00

  And like, I, I would fight and I would just fall apart. You know, I just couldn't, I was just not somebody who was like, could do the creative job and also fight like all that time. You know what I mean? Yeah. So it's like, it's taken me a longer time to. Be in a situation where I could just do the job and not have to fight. You know what I mean?

• 41:07Rick Rubin?

  And you're there now.

• 41:08Speaker 00

  Yeah, with this like show like and you know HBO in general, I did another show with them called Enlightened with Lauren Dern. Like it was like where I, yeah, they

• 41:18Rick Rubin?

  They left you alone.

• 41:18Speaker 00

  believed me in me and they saw what I could bring and and they accept me.

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• 43:04Rick Rubin?

  What's the first time you ever performed in anything?

• 43:07Speaker 00

  Well, I did it when I was in college, because I was, I'm really a writer. I really see myself as a writer, but, but like, sometimes I would write stuff and I would sit there and watch it. And I'd just be like, ugh, I can't, ugh. And so I was like, oh, I'll just be in it and then I don't have to sit there passively. And so I would act sometimes in stuff that I had written in college.

• 43:27Rick Rubin?

  Did you write it knowing it was for you to perform or no?

• 43:30Speaker 00

  Sometimes, sometimes I'd be like, oh, I'll do this. And, and like, and then when I did movies, it was like, I didn't really want to be like the lead, but I was just like, it'll give me something to do, so I'm not sitting behind the director being like, eh.

• 43:41Rick Rubin?

  Have you ever acted in anything that you didn't write?

• 43:44Speaker 00

  Yeah, I have, just like as friends, you know, favors to friends and stuff, but it's-

• 43:48Rick Rubin?

  Is that fun or no?

• 43:49Speaker 00

  It's fun to interact that way, but I, it's such a different kind of vibe. You know, writing and especially being like the mastermind of the theme, you know, you always are like, you need to stay on point or else you're, you know, it's like you're failing everyone. You gotta just like make it as good as you can make it. And acting is like letting go and like giving, you know, like giving in to something. You know, it's kind of more of a like free spirited thing that I feel like I can tap into and have fun with. But I also, it's less compelling to me lately, I guess.

• 44:26Rick Rubin?

  How is writing a second season different than writing a first season?

• 44:31Speaker 00

  I've never really done it more than two seasons, because I'm, you know, I have this like, like I talked about earlier, which is like, I'm a novelty freak and I like to feel like I'm doing something new. So like, I got like idea of like going back to the same thing over and over, like it sounds like hell. But like with this show, it's an anthology, so it's totally new actors, completely new location, new. So like that part of it, it's like, but then the themes can kind of like interplay with each other and kind of feel more textured and it can develop over. So like that part of it is clutch, I love that. So like, that's cool. Yeah, so I'm happy with this gig and would like to keep doing it as long as-

• 45:11Rick Rubin?

  It seems like you've found a format that suits you.

• 45:13Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's perfect, it's perfect for me. But yeah, you asked me about reality shows.

• 45:18Rick Rubin?

  Yeah, tell me that.

• 45:19Speaker 00

  You don't see the pleasure in going on a reality show? A reality game show, Starving on an Island? Do you ever see Survivor?

• 45:26Rick Rubin?

  I've never seen it.

• 45:27Speaker 00

  You've never seen Survivor?

• 45:28Rick Rubin?

  I've never seen any reality show.

• 45:30Speaker 00

  You've never seen a reality show?

• 45:31Rick Rubin?

  No. Tell me, what was your, what was the thought?

• 45:34Speaker 00

  Well, I don't know. It's hard to explain to somebody who doesn't really even see any of the pleasure of it. But I like, I, but like, I, Survivor is just a great, it's a classic show. Yeah.

• 45:46Rick Rubin?

  If it wasn't a TV show.

• 45:48Speaker 00

  Would I do it?

• 45:49Rick Rubin?

  Would you do the same thing?

• 45:51Speaker 00

  Oh, no.

• 45:51Rick Rubin?

  In the same competition?

• 45:53Speaker 00

  No.

• 45:53Rick Rubin?

  Everything was the same, except there's no cameras.

• 45:55Speaker 00

  Well, I would definitely do like, The Amazing Race I did, which is like a scavenger hunt around the world. Hell, yeah, I'd do that. And I want to do that.

• 46:02Rick Rubin?

  Do it or not?

• 46:04Speaker 00

  Yeah, I would do that just to do it. And it's like, I've, I've actually tried to, I mean, I haven't done it yet, but I'm in the process of like, I want to organize a tuck tuck race across Sri Lanka with your friends. You can like, get all the things and like, it's like a scavenger hunt, you go different places and it's, I mean, yeah, it'd be so fun. And I've done that where I've like hosted and like scavenger hunts around LA and like you go all balls to the wall and that's fun. But Survivor, I don't know. Survivor is more, it's very punitive. I mean, you're starving. I don't know if I would suffer like that if there weren't cameras. Like, I feel like the cameras, no, they, I think that cameras give you life, you know what I mean?

• 46:42Speaker 00

  You're like, because then it's like you're suffering for America. You're suffering, like, it, it's like, I think to suffer in alone anonymously, like, that's suffering. In fact, on Survivor, you suffer before the show starts because they have like a week where you're on, you know, you're under this lockdown where they're doing all of these different kinds of, like, you have to go through this process and there are no cameras. And I hated that. Anytime that there weren't the cameras around, I was hating it because it was like you're stuck in this, like, before, like, so they have tribal council, you vote people out, whatever. But then before the tribal council, you're in this tent and there's like a P A there telling you not to talk to each other and you're sitting in the mud and there is no camera and you're just like, this is sucks.

• 47:27Speaker 00

  But then you go to the tribal council, there's cameras, you vote someone else and it's dramatic. And it's, I'm like, this is fun.

• 47:33Rick Rubin?

  Because you feel like it's showbiz?

• 47:35Speaker 00

  No, it's just like, it's like part of, yeah, maybe it's just because it's, I mean, yeah, well, one, I'm a fan of the show and you know that you're part of this thing. And so that's funny. It's just funny. I don't know. It's just funny, but like when you're sitting just waiting to go on and you're in the dirt and you're starving and you got shit in your mouth. And like this fucking P A who's 22 is telling you to shut up. You're just like, fuck this, but you know. I don't know if I could do it again. I've been, I just, they just did a 50th anniversary. It's like the 50th season and I, they brought me back to come and I, I just did it in the summer. And it was hell. The whole thing was hell. It was like literally every second it was hellish. It was so hellish. So I don't know if I could ever do it again, but I'm still a fan.

• 48:20Rick Rubin?

  Are most of the other people on the show, people that you know from something else or no?

• 48:24Speaker 00

  No, none of them. I mean, none, it's, it's just, it's just people. And actually that's why I didn't like it as much this time because the first season you, I went through, it was like a truck driver from Texas. It was people from all walks of life who'd never been in that experience before. You're going through it with them. There's something very bonding about that and it's very, it is a lot of drama, you know, 39 days starving. You know, like I lost 27 pounds. You're like going through all these things, you know, you're crying, you're like, it's emotional. It's like, it's like a big deal. And then the next time you go and you're going with a bunch of people who are now reality contestants who like, have like kind of worked on their persona through. I mean, they are, they started as truck drivers, but now they're like the, you know, people they bring.

• 49:07Speaker 00

  Yeah, they're influencers. And so, and also you've been, you've done it before. It feels a little more canned. So it's just, that's just the nature of the beast. But, so yeah, but I, but I was just like 50th anniversary. I don't know, that's something, I was like, I should just do it. And also, at the time, I was like, oh, White Lotus, it did sort of become this like phenomenal. It was like, it was just a lot, like, and I was like, I don't want to be, I don't deal with that right now. I was like, I'll, I'll go somewhere and like skulk away and be like, just one of, a bunch of people on an island. But I realized I couldn't, you know, it was like, it was like, I got there and it was like, there's a press junket before. It was like, all these things that I had this fantasy of what it was gonna, how I was gonna be able to get away from this person

• 49:52Speaker 00

  that I was trying to run away from. And I was like, oh no, this person is here and now I'm starving. Now it's just that person and I'm starving. I like competing, I'm a competitive, I like, yeah, novelty. Are you a gambler? Not really, I don't, yeah, because I don't like losing money, but I'm competitive in the sense of like, I don't know, like, it's like, it's a very king's court, you know what I mean? It's like, it's real like, yeah, it's like a king's court of like personalities. Like, it's a pagan playground of these different like personality types that are all trying to like. Is it a popularity contest in some way? Yes, I mean, it's more like, the person who wins is the person who, it's like, it's really about influencing other people.

• 50:34Speaker 00

  It's like, who, how can you get what you want when everybody wants the same thing? And like, and it's really about getting other people to do what you want them to do. And they're all people who want to do their own thing. So it's a, it's like, it's a war of wills, basically. It's classically a very interesting show to watch, because when it first came out, you had these different sort of archetypal people that you, you know, like, they kind of cast it for like, you know, the crotchety female truck driver, the like, the vixen who's like the bathing suit model. And like, all these, from these different, and they're all, they all want the same thing and they're all eating each other until one person is left. I don't know. I just like surviving, like, musical chairs, I used to like musical chairs.

• 51:18Speaker 00

  Like, you'd be the last person to have a chair. Or like dodgeball, where you throw the ball until there was just one person left. I don't know, something about, I guess it's like, maybe it's because my mom had all these miscarriages and I was a baby who was like trying to survive. You're the one who made it. The one that made it. I'm like, I, like, when that Survivor first showed up, I was just like, this is the show. This is like surviving, surviving other people.

• 51:42Rick Rubin?

  And you wrote a movie that was wrestling themed.

• 51:44Speaker 00

  Yeah, Nacho Libre.

• 51:45Rick Rubin?

  Tell me about that. How did it come to be?

• 51:48Speaker 00

  Well, the director is the guy who'd made Napoleon Dynamite. Jared Hess is one of the great.

• 51:53Rick Rubin?

  I love that movie.

• 51:54Speaker 00

  Yeah, he's an amazing guy. He's such a nice guy and his wife, they're both super cool. And so they had this idea to do a wrestling movie with Jack. Jack Black and I had a company together for a while and Jack's also an amazing guy. And so, you know, Jared was a Mormon and he had done his mission in, I think Ecuador. I don't know, somewhere in South America. He spoke Spanish. And you just want to go back there and do a luchador movie. And I was like, that sounds, that's like right on my alley. You're shooting in Mexico.

• 52:24Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 52:24Speaker 00

  And Jack was down there and we just had a blast. It was probably the most fun I've ever had on this. It was just so much fun.

• 52:30Rick Rubin?

  How much do you know before you start writing?

• 52:33Speaker 00

  Well, I don't really write anything that's like.

• 52:37Speaker 00

  I'm a kind of know nothing guy. I don't know. It's like, I try to like, for me, it's more about feeling my way in and like, I don't need to be.

• 52:46Rick Rubin?

  Like the story. Do you know the whole story before you start writing?

• 52:49Speaker 00

  I usually know where it's going and I try, I like try to like get, yeah, vibe out the characters. And, and that part is the funnest part to me, honestly, is the gestating. It's like, you know, where you're lying there, oh, this is an idea. And like, the like, the gestating before the writing is super fun. And I like to try to stay, keep myself from writing until it's just like, the baby is ready to be born. Do you mean?

• 53:14Rick Rubin?

  The writing part happens quickly?

• 53:16Speaker 00

  Yeah, it goes like, it's like, and this is the problem now is that like, I, because the show is eight episodes. It's like, so I like, I just went through a period of like writing 450 pages of stuff in three, two and a half months.

• 53:31Rick Rubin?

  Wow.

• 53:32Speaker 00

  And so I have a sprinter's approach and sometimes it's a marathon.

• 53:37Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 53:37Speaker 00

  And I go a little cuckoo because it's like I just finished. I'm completely spent. It's like I've had my finger in the electric socket and I'm just like. So I need to just get my head on straight.

• 53:49Rick Rubin?

  Do you play all of the different characters when you're writing?

• 53:53Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 53:54Rick Rubin?

  Do you ever say things out loud or no?

• 53:56Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 53:57Rick Rubin?

  All the time?

• 53:58Speaker 00

  Hmm. It's like I, I write it until I hear it. So I don't know if I'm actually saying it, but it's being said in my head. Yeah.

• 54:06Rick Rubin?

  And if something funny happens, do you laugh?

• 54:10Speaker 00

  I hope so, totally. I mean, if something sad happens, I cry.

• 54:14Rick Rubin?

  But when you write something sad, you'll cry, and when you write something funny, you'll laugh if you're alone in the room.

• 54:18Speaker 00

  I mean, some things, yeah, if I'm laughing, I don't know if it's always funny to other people, but it is funny to me. So like, and I definitely come from the place of like, I'm trying to like, get myself off. And like, I'm writing for those moments where I'm getting off.

• 54:33Rick Rubin?

  Yeah, you're entertaining yourself.

• 54:34Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 54:35Rick Rubin?

  Great. All the best things happen that way. Okay, I'm gonna read a list to you, and I want you to prioritize it. There's five things on the list. Characters, Dialogue, Story, Setting, Philosophy.

• 54:53Speaker 00

  Huh. I think character first, and, you know, philosophy, I personally like, I like to organize things based on philosophical concepts. Like, I think philosophical concepts get me excited. So, character and philosophical concepts kind of sometimes like-

• 55:18Rick Rubin?

  Both number one?

• 55:19Speaker 00

  Well, they go hand in hand. Like, the characters come out of philosophical ideas.

• 55:24Rick Rubin?

  So philosophy might even come first?

• 55:27Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's just sort of like, what am I trying to get at? And then I'll build a character that sort of helps me get at that. So, yeah, you can't have one without the other, I guess, at least with this kind of stuff that I'm doing. So I would say they're both one. And then, dialogue, what is it, setting and story?

• 55:44Rick Rubin?

  Dialogue, story, and setting are the three left.

• 55:46Speaker 00

  Well, story, I think, is probably the next, because I think that that's like, story is the playing out of these ideas, you know? And then the dialogue would be next. In a weird way, dialogue is probably more my strength than the other things. So like, that's, it's just, it is what it is. And then setting is-

• 56:06Rick Rubin?

  Last.

• 56:06Speaker 00

  The last.

• 56:08Rick Rubin?

  What are your favorite films of all time?

• 56:11Speaker 00

  Well, it's funny, I go back to like, what were the ones that got me excited about storytelling? I mean, like, The Poseidon Adventure, if I watched it now, I'd probably be like-

• 56:20Speaker 00

  But like, there's something about it that like, and that's also a Survivor show. Like, it's like, did you ever watch The Poseidon Adventure?

• 56:26Rick Rubin?

  I did.

• 56:27Speaker 00

  Do you remember there's a-

• 56:27Rick Rubin?

  I've seen all the Erwin Allen movies.

• 56:28Speaker 00

  There was a poster that was like, who will live and who will die? And it was like, you know, like, six of them died and six of them lived. Do you remember this?

• 56:36Rick Rubin?

  Yeah, County Inferno was another one.

• 56:37Speaker 00

  Yeah, exactly. And so like, this idea of like, you don't know who's gonna live and who's gonna die. And then, I was into that. I don't know if that's really effective, like, I don't know. All those Survivor, what do we call it? White Lotus? Whatever it is. It's a little bit like that. Like, who's gonna die? Like, who's gonna live and who's gonna die?

• 56:54Rick Rubin?

  Do you think seeing Poseidon Adventure many times as a young person made you like this?

• 57:02Speaker 00

  Yeah, am I, like, was I excited about that? Like, would I inevitably be excited by those, by something, whether Poseidon Adventure existed or not?

• 57:09Rick Rubin?

  Yeah, what do you think?

• 57:11Speaker 00

  I think it's a collective. I mean, it's like, this is, I don't know why you're, you know, I'm sure with music, it's like, you have an orientation. But then, some things capture your imagination and then they're procreative.

• 57:26Rick Rubin?

  If they weren't there, I know I wouldn't be the same.

• 57:29Speaker 00

  Yeah, I wouldn't have the same, maybe, format to have reveries on those kinds of things. So like, I do think it's, it changed me. And also, watching it like, on repeat, like, I'm sure there was music you just listened to over and over. And like, and you know what I mean? It was like, so like, all of the storytelling mechanisms just got ingrained inside your brain, you know?

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• 59:25Rick Rubin?

  How is writing a theatrical play different than writing for television?

• 59:31Speaker 00

  I mean, I wrote plays when I was in college, but I haven't really done it since. But, I mean, the thing is, what's cool is like, it's like being in a... It's like, what's the difference between performing live and performing, like, having, you know, producing a record? It's like, there's so many things you can control, so many things you can excise. You can just, you know, guide the viewer, the audience, in a way that you can in a live thing. And so I...

• 59:57Rick Rubin?

  Would it make it harder, you think, to write theater because of that?

• 1:00:00Speaker 00

  I just, it's like, I think that, for me, like, this is so sweet to be able to have this kind of audience and to... You know, I think live theater is exciting for performers and stuff, but I guess for a writer, I feel like, you know, and then being able to really, like, manage the material in the way that I can as a producer, it's just, it's preferable to me.

• 1:00:24Rick Rubin?

  Would you say you're a control freak?

• 1:00:26Speaker 00

  I'm a control freak in the sense of certain, like, I don't like being under someone else's. Like, I don't, I don't, I have a lot of mistakes to be mine. I'm not OCD anymore. I'm not a perfectionist. I, I hate to say it.

• 1:00:41Rick Rubin?

  How did that happen?

• 1:00:42Speaker 00

  What's the cliches? Like perfectionism is the, is the enemy of productivity. You know what I mean? Like, it's like, like, I realized early on if I was gonna be so niggly and like, I'm gonna get bogged down. And it's like, and it also made me sort of miserable. You know what I mean? I, I feel like I wanna be lighthearted. I wanna be able to create and feel proud of it, but also kind of like not be an ogre.

• 1:01:08Rick Rubin?

  Also, maybe the more that you do, you realize what isn't isn't important.

• 1:01:15Speaker 00

  Yes. And also, yeah, exactly. And also, like, there's certain things where you like, you realize, as you know, as someone who is really into the collaboration, that like, letting go of feeling ownership of everything and realizing other people are bringing stuff to it. And it gives it more variety of expression. And so that comes with security over time, the security of self and not being such a, you know, stingy bitch.

• 1:01:42Rick Rubin?

  Can you remember any creative breakthroughs for you that have happened over the years?

• 1:01:50Speaker 00

  Well, I've learned from everybody and I've learned from even things that weren't, yeah, from failures. And, and like, you know, I would talk about Judd doing Freaks and Geeks and he was had this, you know, he was a very, he's very anal explosive, like just throw the shit on the wall, you know, and see what sticks and like, and is not precious about it. And in a way, he workshops everything. He goes through the process like a studio almost, where, you know, he watches what people like and what, you know, and so he's canvassing. And I was always having this kind of a thorial pride of like, this is my intention. You know, it was always like, kind of feeling like I was on defense of any kind of influence or some, you know, like I was always like more rigid. And so like, working with him was helpful to like.

• 1:02:37Speaker 00

  I'll never be him and I'll never do it that way. But like, but to like, let go of some kinds of, you know, uppity shit that I had.

• 1:02:46Rick Rubin?

  Tell me more about your parents.

• 1:02:48Speaker 00

  Well, my dad was a minister and religious.

• 1:02:52Rick Rubin?

  Did you see him when he would speak?

• 1:02:55Speaker 00

  Yeah, we, I was, you know, I was a minister's son. So like every Sunday we would, you know, because he was like, that was our church. So. So, yeah, so he's an intense guy and he was, you know, my parents are. Do you ever get into the Enneagram?

• 1:03:11Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:11Speaker 00

  Okay, so like, I'm a seven, which is like, like, seven is like an enthusiast. But like, kind of in dreamers and like, my parents are both, they both live in these dream worlds. Like, they live, they're dreamers. They're, my dad is like a dreamer of like, Christian theology and Bible stories and, you know, like, and like, and justice, social justice.

• 1:03:35Rick Rubin?

  Did he grow up in it as well?

• 1:03:37Speaker 00

  Yeah. His parents were, yeah, very religious and they kind of groomed him to be the next Billy Graham. And he wrote all these like, you know, religious books with like, all of these like big, you know, Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson and Jim and Tammy Baker and stuff. So, yeah, they're both.

• 1:03:55Speaker 00

  You know, like on Survivor, I realized like, I'm not good in material reality. I don't know how to do shit. I don't know how to, I'm useless. I'm a useless person when it comes to the material world.

• 1:04:06Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:06Speaker 00

  And it's like, I was raised by these dreamers who lived in the dreamlands. I'm like, I'm literally, I'm like a Christian Tennessee Williams player or something. So like, it's like, I, so like, they're both beautiful people and they live in these beautiful dreams and.

• 1:04:20Rick Rubin?

  And your mom was a believer as well?

• 1:04:22Speaker 00

  She is a Christian, but like, she was just like somebody who made umbrellas for fairies and. Like when she was like, and like, always just sees this like, she lives in this kind of rainbow land of like, she sees the good in everybody and like, and, and kind of just, I don't know, like, so, yeah, they're, they're interesting people. And only now as I'm older, do I realize like, how much I'm, yeah, just a product of these two beautiful dreaming people and not, you know, like, they have cool spirits.

• 1:04:56Rick Rubin?

  Do you think everything you write is biographical?

• 1:04:58Speaker 00

  Yeah, I definitely feel like things that don't come from inside you, I don't know how you'd write it, you know what I mean? And I guess my goal in life is to like,

• 1:05:10Speaker 00

  be large enough to, to have a large canvas inside me, you know?

• 1:05:16Rick Rubin?

  When you're writing, do you picture the characters physically? Like, do you see them?

• 1:05:23Speaker 00

  Hmm, it's more I hear them because I don't know who else also. I mean, sometimes I'll write, like I wrote for Jennifer Coolidge for the show, or Jack Black, I wrote a bunch of stuff for him. So I see them and I hear their voice. But in general, since I don't always know who's gonna be it, it's...

• 1:05:39Rick Rubin?

  But you don't picture like, someone like this, like an archetype? Or do you?

• 1:05:44Speaker 00

  Yeah, I mean, when you have casting, which I'm doing right now for the next season, someone will show up and I'll be like, yeah, this looks like the face that I see in my head.

• 1:05:52Rick Rubin?

  And is it always matching something that you already thought when you're casting? Or is it ever, wow, I never thought of it like that, but that's even better?

• 1:06:02Speaker 00

  Totally, totally, 100%. And sometimes somebody will come along, I'll think, let me think of an example. Like Parker Posey was an actress that was in the last season. And the way this part was written was written as this kind of like, prim, southern matriarch or whatever. And then Parker Posey comes in with this just like, it's just totally different kind of energy. And like hilarious. And so like, yeah, it just, I mean, that's the part of like, where, you know, time and experience, like, I'm like, okay, let's capture, let's let Parker be Parker and figure out how to make her shine, you know? And like, and step away from some of this preconceived things that I need. You know, some stuff I need, I need it to do for the story. But like, other places, like, let's let her just be her, you know?

• 1:06:47Rick Rubin?

  How about ad libbing?

• 1:06:49Speaker 00

  Yeah, I'm, I'm, you know, I came up with Judd and Jack and all those people. So I'm, you know, it's like, it's like a combination. Like, I wanna feel like I have a reason for the things that I put in there. But then, you know, we get a version of that and then we play around with it.

• 1:07:03Rick Rubin?

  What's essential for a character to exist?

• 1:07:06Speaker 00

  I mean, some characters are the, you know, if it's the person going through the story... Then they need to have, you know, a dimension and a purpose that's deeper. And then, you know, the other characters are there to, as orchestration in a sense. It's like you have your main song and then you have these different things to be counterpoint or to be a foil or to be the jester to that. You know what I mean? The different, different people that, so usually it's like each story has this kind of centerpiece character idea for me. And then the other characters are there to, I don't know, to create the dynamism that you want for a story.

• 1:07:46Rick Rubin?

  Do you have any kind of rules for yourself about like, you like having a certain number of characters?

• 1:07:52Speaker 00

  Yeah, I mean, I think it's like with, with White Lotus, for example. I, I think the gestating part is like, you're trying to figure out how many characters you need in order to have enough material and, and, you know, event and like drama. And I guess I like to be economical, so I want to have the least amount that I can have whilst, you know, so that everyone, like, I like a chamber piece, you know? Like, I like to feel like I'm being like very conservative and so that everybody, there's like real sort of shifts for everything and it like, I just like, you have your own, you have a more of a relationship to the work. You know, it's like, it's like a chef, you know? It's like, you, you want to have a little bit of this kind of flavor. You want a little bit of this flavor.

• 1:08:37Speaker 00

  If it's too this, it's too simple. If it's too this, it's too, you know, crazy. You know what I mean? It's like you, you're just going for that like perfect little, I don't know. And whether you, you know, other people see it, but that for you, that's like the thing that it's like, you want to get that perfect mix of flavor and texture and stuff.

• 1:08:55Rick Rubin?

  Does everything need to make sense?

• 1:08:57Speaker 00

  No, I mean, and that's the thing. It's like I, you know, I grew up with a dad who wrote sermons and that everything was this kind of like, you know, it's like, you know, had, had a dogmatic quality or, or, or there's like a, yeah, there's a lesson. There's a, it's like always bringing you to the water to drink. You know what I mean? And so like, I kind of came from that world where like, like I said, like philosophy like inspires me, but then at some point you also like. You know, great art, sometimes it's just like the, just the vividness of it, or just the weirdness, or the surprise of it that like stays with you. And so like, and you think of dreams that you have where it's like, you know, it doesn't all come together, but it has these elements that are just like, you know, that linger in the mind.

• 1:09:42Speaker 00

  And so that part of it is, you want to be able to have enough space so that it doesn't feel like it's such a closed circle.

• 1:09:49Rick Rubin?

  Any rules about story structure that you follow, or no?

• 1:09:55Speaker 00

  That's a big thing to unpack. I mean, I like counterpoint and I like characters that start and then they become their, almost their opposites. And, and I don't know, there's certain pleasures of drama that I, that I find to be something I always tend to respond to.

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• 1:11:54Rick Rubin?

  How do you know when something you read is good? What's the feeling?

• 1:11:58Speaker 00

  I mean, I'm sure it's the same with you. It's just like when you get excited and like when you're like, no one can tell me that this isn't good. I like whether it's good or not, like nobody can tell me and I will, it will knock me off this perch. Do you know what I mean? Where you're just like,

• 1:12:12Rick Rubin?

  You feel it.

• 1:12:13Speaker 00

  You're like, this is gonna be that. And like, cause you know, you get so many, you know, especially in, you know, it's so expensive, this thing. And like, there's so much money involved and there's so many collaborators. It's, it's like, you know, you have dozens of actors. You know, so many people have opinions and it's like, you really, it's like, those are your North Stars are those things where you're just like, this is gonna be funny. I believe in this little thing. And like, it kind of anchors you in the process.

• 1:12:39Rick Rubin?

  When you write something funny, do you have someone that you call up to tell it to?

• 1:12:44Speaker 00

  Yeah, I, I'm pretty private for somebody in this thing. So I don't, I like, and I've had the thing where I've had friends where you show them draft and you're just like, this isn't fair. Like, it's like, so I tried to, I need to have a very small, like, I just go to HBO. If you guys are okay, if, if, if all systems go, then I know over time, you know, thousands of people are, but that early initial thing, I feel like I've, I've learned like not to, but yeah, there are, but with that said, like, there's a couple of people that I know I'm safe with that like get it.

• 1:13:20Rick Rubin?

  I'm not even saying share it with them to get feedback, but just more you're excited to

• 1:13:26Speaker 00

  Yeah, you're excited.

• 1:13:27Rick Rubin?

  Share the thing.

• 1:13:28Speaker 00

  I do, I, I'm sure there are, but I really don't have it. I don't do it that much because I'm, I'm, I'm, I tend to be kind of, I'm just, I'm not, I'm not extroverted in that way where I'm like, and I also feel like I lose some of the pleasure of the doing if I tell it, so.

• 1:13:46Rick Rubin?

  You don't want to give it away.

• 1:13:47Speaker 00

  I just want to like, hold that excited energy and use it to the work.

• 1:13:54Rick Rubin?

  Do you think of yourself as spiritual?

• 1:13:57Speaker 00

  Yeah, totally. I mean, I feel like art is a spiritual enterprise, you know? It's a non-material.

• 1:14:02Rick Rubin?

  Beyond the art piece, do you have a spiritual practice?

• 1:14:07Speaker 00

  But I consider myself a Western Buddhist in the sense of like, I feel connected to the Buddhist, at least this sort of Western version of the Buddhist concepts. Like, if I'm, I'm not really reading the sutra. I like, you know, it's like, like this idea of the non-self and finding that through meditation and like, you know, like, and, and some of the stuff that we, we talked about before about past lives and all that. So like, I, I feel like, yeah, I'm spiritual, but I also, I also feel like I'm strong. I have this feeling lately where I, you know, I'm from a religious background and I've seen people leave the church and then, you know, how they create their own religions and I'm kind of, you know, especially as you get more success,

• 1:14:53Speaker 00

  you get, you get more successful and you're around other people that are successful and they feel like they've landed, like I'm, I've landed on the, you know, like, it's like where they're, I don't know, like, like, I like, I feel like I want to live in a place of unsurety because I feel like that's, certain things work and certain things don't work. But like, I like the idea of being, you know, kind of more, you know, it's like, like in a science mode of like, I can have my mind changed about anything, do you know what I mean? Where like, somebody could say, oh, this is like, you're, you know, like, it's like, and not be too rigid about, oh, the, like, the, the choices. Don't you feel like as you get older, like, a lot of times, people, like, the choices they've made, they have to be defensive about them and that, like,

• 1:15:36Speaker 00

  this is like the, this is the truth, you know what I mean? This is the best way. And, and like, I also agree that everybody comes to their own. We all build our own heaven. You've built your heaven here, you know what I mean? But I like this feeling of being. Still in a, like, I haven't landed on the planet. You know what I mean? I don't know, like, it's like, OK to not know and be, be, you know, modest about what I really know.

• 1:16:02Rick Rubin?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, that's beautiful. Same. I, I don't feel like I know anything.

• 1:16:08Speaker 00

  Yeah, and I like to be in situations like, you know, you go on Survivor, as silly as it is, and be around all these other people who are living such different lives than you. And you realize, like, oh, yeah, there's a whole, like, I don't know everything. You know what I mean? I'm the king of this little castle, but I'm just a little, it's just a little. It's the littlest of castles.

• 1:16:27Rick Rubin?

  How did you learn to direct?

• 1:16:30Speaker 00

  I don't know if I still know how to direct.

• 1:16:34Speaker 00

  I mean, basically, I mean, I had a, I mean, like, I, I think some people would say I don't know how to direct. I don't, I like, I, I, I basically, you know, like, I really don't know much about cameras. It's funny, because I'm going to France, and it's like, I've learned French over the years multiple times. I learned it in high school. I went to Montreal. I do, it's like, and I feel like I'm like, I'm starting over again. And like, every time I go onto a set, and it's like, and like, we're talking about shots and stuff. I'm like, I, I've been doing this for decades now, but I'm like, I feel like, I'm like, do I even know what I'm talking about? Like, I don't, you know, it's like, every time I feel like I am learning it again. And like, with each actor, you learn it again, and with each person. It's like, each thing is its own. It's like, what I know is the work. You know what I mean?

• 1:17:19Speaker 00

  What I know is what I, is the writer that came, could have talked to this vision. And then now I'm like, working with these designers who know a lot more than me about how to, like, get me to the promised land. But I do feel, as a director, I feel like I'm just kind of like, I just have access to the writer in a way that's, that is, I have a, that's my way in, I guess.

• 1:17:44Rick Rubin?

  Tell me something you learned from your father.

• 1:17:47Speaker 00

  What I learned from my father is, is gonna, this, sorry, make me emotional, but.

• 1:17:54Speaker 00

  You know, my dad, he was from this religious upbringing and he, you know, he wanted to save people's souls and, and there's something beautiful, there's something obnoxious about, you know, the missionary who is coming in and thinks that they know better than everyone else and is telling it. But there's also something beautiful about seeing each person as a soul who is worthy of saving, you know, and that each person is a child of God.

• 1:18:26Speaker 00

  So I think that there's something very, yes, obviously spiritual, but also,

• 1:18:33Speaker 00

  yeah, of service to each person and that you can see Jesus in each person and that that was something that he taught me, you know, it was like, so that's a compassion that is, is really a deep source of self, you know, where you feel like you're not better than anybody else. You, you, you have to be of service to each person and each person, each person is a divine self, you know, so if my dad's older, it's gonna, I get emotional. But like, that's, yeah, that was like an essential thing. That was the first thing I ever felt like I was, I learned. It's, you know, I want to live up to that, you know?

• 1:19:16Rick Rubin?

  Sounds like an incredible gift. Amazing. Where'd you grow up?

• 1:19:22Speaker 00

  Grew up in Pasadena, like the foothills of the mountains, in the canyon.

• 1:19:27Rick Rubin?

  What was childhood like there?

• 1:19:31Speaker 00

  It was cool. It was, I mean, it was nice. I mean, it was a different time, you know, like I, I was up in the foothills and there wasn't a lot going on. So it was, it would allow me to have a lot of time to introspect and be the weird kid that I was and.

• 1:19:49Speaker 00

  And yeah, it's, I thank God every day that I wasn't born in this time of all of this easy distractions, you know, you had to go out and find it, you know, and you really had to work for it. And, but yeah, I just thank God, had I been born now, how many things I wouldn't have come to or done, or, I don't know, I really feel for these kids. I'm sure they're fine, but, but yeah, there's nothing like being totally unable to connect with, you know, I mean, having to really go out and find the culture is, is a hero's journey in a way.

• 1:20:52Speaker 06

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• 1:21:07Speaker 07

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• 1:21:50Speaker 07

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