84 How to Be A Man In Today's World (And What Women Can Do to Support) with Brett McKay

"Don't kill the animal within you; just tame him and use him appropriately." - Brett McKay To learn more about the School of Greatness, head on over to www.lewishowes.com/84 Get more from Lewis! Get my New York Times Bestselling book, Make Money Easy! Get The Greatness Mindset audiobook on SpotifyText Lewis AIYouTubeInstagramWebsiteTiktokFacebookX

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Lewis Howes?

  This is episode number 84 with Brett McKay from Art of Manliness.

• 0:07Lewis Howes?

  Welcome to the School of Greatness. My name is Lewis Howes, a former pro athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur. And each week, we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness. Thanks for spending some time with me today. Now let the class begin.

• 0:33Lewis Howes?

  What is up, greats? Thanks so much for tuning in today on this exceptional day. And I've got my man Brett McKay, who's the founder and editor of ArtOfManliness.com, one of the premier destination sites and blogs for men and for women. But it's all about becoming a manly man. And we dive into a lot of different topics today on what it actually means to be a manly man. And you like how I'm using my voice? Manly man. All the actual challenges that have been facing men over the last 50 years and all the evolution that's happened with women in the workforce, just the different changes. Again, nothing is right or wrong, good or bad, but just the changes in how men have

• 1:13Lewis Howes?

  had to evolve in the workplace, in relationships, and their actual physical strength and all these different areas of their lives. The challenges that have come up for men, what men can do to become better men, best versions of themselves. We cover that all today on this episode. And Brett's got some really cool information and insights from the years of research he's been doing this. So I'm very excited to introduce him and dive into this episode. Want to give a quick shout out to our sponsor. It's a new sponsor today over at 99designs.com/greatness. Now, at the end of this episode, we talk about the success of Brett's blog and his business and really how it's grown and such a powerful business for him to have an incredible

• 1:56Lewis Howes?

  lifestyle, live from home, work from home, and raise a family around his business and his blog. Now let's go ahead and dive in with Art of Manliness founder Brett McKay.

• 2:19Lewis Howes?

  Welcome back everyone to the School of Greatness Podcast. Super pumped for today's episode because we got my good man Brett McKay on. What's up Brett?

• 2:27Speaker 01

  How's it going Louis?

• 2:28Lewis Howes?

  Going well man. We've been trying to do this for about six months. So the stars aligned and we're finally, we're finally bringing our manly vibes together to make it happen. So I'm excited. And I'm very excited just because I think the topic that you have, which is called theartofmanliness.com is one of the most unique and interesting and fun and entertaining and educational blogs and sites out there. And I think it's great what you're doing because you're bringing a lot of education and entertainment at the same time. It's not just information, but it's like you make it fun. You make it like something people want to share because it looks cool. It's interesting. So it's amazing what you've created and congratulations.

• 3:09Speaker 01

  Well, I appreciate it. Thank you very much. It means a lot.

• 3:12Lewis Howes?

  And you started in 2008, correct?

• 3:14Speaker 01

  That's right. While I was a second year law student.

• 3:17Lewis Howes?

  And why did you start this in the first place?

• 3:20Speaker 01

  So I mean, I'd been blogging for a little bit. I've had this blog called The Frugal Law Student where it was about personal finance from a law student's perspective. And it gained some traction. Like I kind of got the blogging bug there. And I cut my teeth there and I met a lot of cool people, you know, J D Roth from Get Rich Slowly, Leo from Zen Habits, Trent from Simple Dollar. I mean, just some really cool people. Had to interact with them. And so I was doing it for blogging for a little bit. And then I was at a Borders bookstore.

• 3:52Speaker 01

  One night, just kind of passing time during study sessions, looking at the men's magazines. And you know, I had subscribed to Men's Health. I'd, you know, would go every now and then look at men's magazines like Esquire, Men's Journal, you know, as a teenager, Maxim and FHM and things like that. Remember that one night, I was just like looking over the headlines on these magazines and I just like realized, man, like I don't resonate with this stuff anymore. Um, so it was all about like, you know, six pack abs and, you know, how to, you know, sex tips on how to have great sex for five hours or what I mean, just sort of like the Cosmo type. Things that you do for guys, um, and like sort of a lifestyle that, you know, I couldn't afford as a broke law student and, you know, married broke law student.

• 4:36Speaker 01

  So I was just like, you know what, there's, this, this, there's gotta be something like someone else, there's gotta be some cool stuff out there. And there wasn't. So I decided, you know what, I'm gonna start the men's magazine that I'd wanna read, like that resonates with me. Um, so that's what I did. Like I started kind of brainstorming, like what I'd want on a men's magazine that I'd wanna read. I even had like a, like my Moleskine, right? I was like really religious about that, that pocket notebook. And I started jotting down ideas and I started like tossing around ideas for like the name. And, uh, there's a book I read, um, called the, it was called The Manly Arts. It's about 19th century pugilism. And I was kinda like, I thought that was gonna be the name, but then I was like, no, that doesn't sound right. And I was like, oh, art of, how about art of manliness instead of manly arts and like that.

• 5:19Speaker 01

  So I, you know, pitched it to my wife and she's like, that's really cool. And I was kinda giving her the idea of like what I wanted to look like. I wanted to be branded sort of like this vintage, old school.

• 5:28Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 5:29Speaker 01

  Thing. Um, so yeah, I had the idea, started, you know, designing it myself because I didn't, I couldn't afford a graphic, a web designer. And I launched it January 2008 and, um, my first, first article was how to shave like your grandpa, which was about safety razor shaving. Which, uh, if your listeners haven't tried that, it's pretty awesome. Just give it a try. It's very, it makes shaving very affordable and, uh, makes it much more of a ritual experience.

• 5:56Lewis Howes?

  As opposed to just using a Gillette Mach 3 and just.

• 5:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:00Lewis Howes?

  You know, doing it real quick, right?

• 6:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, doing it really quick. It's makes it more, you have to get the brush and the cool shaving soap. So yeah, I mean, I started it and, uh, it just like. Sort of just languid and languished in obscurity for a while, but then like in March, three months after I started it, sort of getting picked up on like dig.com, Reddit, and that is like when dig was like a big deal.

• 6:23Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 6:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, and people, it was sort of on the radar and that's from there, we just took off from there.

• 6:30Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, what I mean, what I love about it is like, it's very unique. It's just got the old school feel and and design and vibe and very vintage, like you said. If you guys are listening and you're by a computer, check it out, art of manliness.com. You'll see all the different categories where it's, you know, dressing and grooming, health and sports, manly skills, money and career, relationships and family, which are very similar to a lot of other lifestyle type of blogs, but the way that you,

• 6:55Lewis Howes?

  you know, the headlines that you have are very different and the content is very unique. Kind of like the one I'm looking at right now is how to sustain a long distance relationship. Five tips I learned from my World War II grandpa. And it's got like love letters, like vintage love letters of like what he said and how it worked out. And so it's like this different way of looking at becoming a man. And why do you think so many men have kind of lost the art of being?

• 7:22Speaker 01

  The art of manliness. Yeah, so that's a really complicated nuanced question. So yeah, we get a lot of the inspiration from my, like from the past, from like my grandfather and like the 19th century. I mean, like guys like resonate with that sort of thing. And I think a lot of guys today resonate with that. I'm not saying all guys, but a lot of guys. Because like there was sort of a clear cut definition of like what it meant to be a man, right?

• 7:51Speaker 01

  And today, because of just changes in our, in our culture and our society,

• 7:57Speaker 01

  things aren't as clear cut. And that's, you know, for better or for worse, right? There's, there's some good things about that and there's some bad things about that because one of the bad things is just a lack of clarity, right? And that's sort of, that can create anxiety and just like, man, what, what does it mean to be a man when? Um, there's like no, you know, preset roles or whatever. Um, so yeah, there's a whole bunch of uh factors involved. So yeah, you could say that, uh, you know, the women's movement and sort of the changes that happened uh in our culture as a consequence of that. Um, might have contributed to that, but I think the big thing is like when people ask me that question, they're always looking for that simple answer. Like it's the economy or it's like feminism or whatever. I think the, the, it's, it's much bigger than that.

• 8:38Speaker 01

  And the, the thing that like, I think why we've sort of lost, like, you know, the lost art of man and what lost what it means to be a man is that. It's modernity. It's just like modern life, right? Like we don't have very many opportunities to like.

• 8:52Lewis Howes?

  Be the man.

• 8:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:53Lewis Howes?

  Go and hunt and get, cause it's already, someone's already doing it for us.

• 8:56Speaker 01

  Someone's already doing for you. Um, you know, just, uh, just things like, like being strong. Like you don't, like you could go your entire life, right? For like, you know, across cultures and for across time, like being a man meant like being current, you know, courageous in battle and like fighting and like having.

• 9:11Lewis Howes?

  Being a warrior.

• 9:12Speaker 01

  Strong, being a warrior, but also, um, you know, providing for your family and being a father and all this other stuff. But like, most guys today can like go their, their entire life without ever getting in a fight, right? Like a fist fight.

• 9:25Lewis Howes?

  Right. Um, yeah. Go to private school, go to like the perfect school.

• 9:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly.

• 9:30Lewis Howes?

  Nice neighborhoods with no crime, uh, you know.

• 9:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:35Lewis Howes?

  Stay at home until you're thirty five.

• 9:37Speaker 01

  Type thing. Yeah.

• 9:38Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 9:38Speaker 01

  Or in like, you know, most guys don't really have to like, you know, you can get by without being physically strong, which, you know, for a long time. Uh, was sort of a defining, uh, characteristic of, of being a man, right? Like you were stronger than children and women.

• 9:52Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 9:52Speaker 01

  Uh, because of biology. Um, there are, but I'm just saying there's, you know, there are strong women out there. Um, I've seen them on CrossFit.

• 9:59Lewis Howes?

  Sure.

• 10:00Speaker 01

  Competitions, whatever.

• 10:01Lewis Howes?

  The, the women out there now are like almost fitter than most men.

• 10:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, there's some, there's some really crazy fit.

• 10:07Lewis Howes?

  It's like, and they're like, they're driven to be fit. And we can, we can get in a second, but what were you about to say?

• 10:13Speaker 01

  But yeah, I was just gonna say, like, most guys, like, you don't have to be, you can be sort of like, not very strong and not very physically active and like, you're gonna do okay in life. You'll survive, you can even thrive.

• 10:25Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 10:26Speaker 01

  Uh, because that's what the environment, uh, require, or not requires, but like, you can, that's what the environment allows.

• 10:31Lewis Howes?

  Yeah. Um, there's a lot of, uh, not physically fit at all individual men who have used, you know, their minds to create something incredible or develop technology and be in that type of industry. And they never have to, you know, use their body in that physical way.

• 10:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, and speaking of technology, I think that's another aspect of it, right? Um, technology, so there's, uh, Nassim Taleb or, um, who wrote Anti-Fragile. Taleb is his last name? Is that how you pronounce it?

• 10:59Lewis Howes?

  Not sure.

• 10:59Speaker 01

  Taleb. I've, I've heard it pronounced different ways. Anyways, he has like this book of aphorisms, where he kinda like says he's like cool, sayings, pithy sayings that, you know, impart a, a bigger truth. Anyways, one of these aphorisms that he says is, the, the opposite of manliness isn't cowardice, it's technology.

• 11:18Lewis Howes?

  Mm-hmm, that's interesting. Yeah, or the computer, right?

• 11:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly.

• 11:22Lewis Howes?

  Sitting at a computer.

• 11:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, technology, um, is re- are replacing the need of like men in a lot of ways like, and what's funny is that men are the ones usually develop technology. And as I stud- as I, as I studied history and, um, so in a way, men are making themselves, um,

• 11:40Lewis Howes?

  Less manly.

• 11:41Speaker 01

  Less manly. And it's funny because as you read history, um, like, men have like, societies have, have had this sort of anxiety about technology in regards to manhood. Uh, you can go, I'll go all the way back to the ancient Greeks. Um, so, so in some of the, uh, stories that were about the, um, the Trojan War, not exactly, not, not the Iliad itself, but there's, you know, other Greek stories where they mentioned the Trojan War. Uh, they talk about, um, the difference between Homer or between Achilles and Odysseus. And Achilles is kinda put out as like super manly guy, you know, even though he had this sort of this puerile anger, like, he fought man to man, um, you know, against, um,

• 12:22Speaker 01

  what's the guy, the guy, leader of Troy? My, my mind blank. Anyways, like, he used his physical strength and prowess. Odysseus, on the other hand, used technology to win with the Trojan horse. Right? So he's like a little bit less manly because he didn't use that, uh, his actual physical strength.

• 12:37Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 12:38Speaker 01

  Really to fight. And then it's, it's funny, you, you see this play out too, um, Anytime there's been sort of a technological revolution, the industrial revolution, you see the same sort of ink like, like what does it mean to be a man when there's like this machine that can do the work that, you know, required manly strength? So you see it like in American folktales, like the story of Paul Bunyan, if you guys remember the Disney version of it. So like, you know, Paul Bunyan is this big burly guy, super manly, can cut down entire forests with one fell swoop of his axe. But then along comes this like puny little city slicker guy with a handlebar mustache with a steam powered mechanized saw. And he challenges Paul Bunyan to a contest.

• 13:22Lewis Howes?

  An axe off.

• 13:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, and the machine guy, the puny guy wins. And so what Paul Bunyan, he just, Paul Bunyan has to leave because there's no need for manly, strong men anymore. Uh, so he goes off to Alaska with Dave the Blue Ox where he can be a man, you know, where it's sort of needed. Um, and like the same thing with like the, the story of-

• 13:42Lewis Howes?

  So sad.

• 13:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, it is sad. Or John, here's another sad one, right? This is even sadder, like John Henry, the, uh, the rail layer, like he hammered rails or spikes into railroad ties. Anyways, like, he was like the best at it. Anyways, then a machine came and said, challenged him to a contest, like, okay, John Henry will have a contest, which either man or machine can, um, lay the most rail. John Henry wins, but he dies at the end.

• 14:06Lewis Howes?

  Jesus.

• 14:08Speaker 01

  So it's the same sort of thing, so it's just like, technology is the opposite of man.

• 14:13Lewis Howes?

  Hard to be technology.

• 14:14Speaker 01

  It is, it's hard to be, and like, and, and here's another, I mean, you can go in kind of a more extreme way of how technology is making, um, men obsolete in some ways is that scientists have actually discovered ways to, um, create, um, sperm cells.

• 14:29Lewis Howes?

  What?

• 14:29Speaker 01

  From a, just a female, like a stem cell.

• 14:32Lewis Howes?

  What? So you don't even need a man to create a baby anymore?

• 14:35Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 14:36Lewis Howes?

  What?

• 14:36Speaker 01

  That's the idea that they could, they could do that. I mean, they haven't like, you know,

• 14:39Lewis Howes?

  Done it.

• 14:40Speaker 01

  Done it yet, but like they, they've said that that's possible, we can, we've done something similar, we, that's a possibility.

• 14:45Lewis Howes?

  What?

• 14:46Speaker 01

  So again, that's technology. So yeah, basically that's making like, you know, one of the roles of, uh, a man throughout time and cultures is like, you know, the procreator, right? You provide your, your genetic material, right? You're supposed to be the, the ladies man, right? Well, technology is getting to a place where we don't even have to- Have that role.

• 15:06Lewis Howes?

  No way. This is crazy. So.

• 15:08Speaker 01

  It's crazy. So there's like, you have all this going on and then you, you know, you add on um just sort of the the economic changes that have happened where, you know, women entering the workforce.

• 15:18Speaker 01

  And you know, before, like, you know, a woman needed a man to um provide, right, for her and her, her children. And that's not necessarily the case anymore. I mean, he doesn't need it.

• 15:28Lewis Howes?

  In some cases, women are actually a lot better suited at working in that position than the man in many cases.

• 15:35Speaker 01

  And then in some, yeah, exactly. And so you're in this environment where it's like, okay. What does it mean to be a man, right? And that's in like, and people say it's uh it's like not important, like. You know, it's silly to think about, you know, if you're manly or not, if you're a man, but like, I don't know. I think it's sort of like. Deeply ingrained within us, right?

• 15:55Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 15:55Speaker 01

  We want to know that we have this status as as a man, and it means something. Because even the people who say like, oh, it doesn't mean anything and, you know, it's stupid to think about that. They often, they oftentimes do this thing where they're like. Well, I'm actually more manly because I don't care about me being manly. But like by saying that, like, no, you, you, you, you care about being manly, um you're just kind of doing in a weird way. You know, like it's.

• 16:21Lewis Howes?

  Not acknowledging it. Yeah.

• 16:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. It's like, I'm so secure in my masculinity that I can not be concerned about my masculinity. It's like, no, well, you, you're concerned about it. Because you say you're, you're, you're making a point to tell me that you're secure and you're.

• 16:35Speaker 01

  So, so, yeah, it's, it's an interesting, it's an interesting, crazy, interesting new world.

• 16:40Lewis Howes?

  But why don't you say that women, you know, even though they, the women's movement, I guess, over the last fifty years, where they more come into the work uh workplace, where they're, you know, being more independent, where they're making their own money and really taking over in some ways. Wouldn't you say that women still really want a man to be a man and they want them to be, take the lead?

• 17:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:05Lewis Howes?

  Be the stand, be this calm force that doesn't waver back and forth and allow a woman to be, you know, flowing and and blowing in the winds and do what they want to do, but have this strong manly force that they can come back to and be confident and safe in.

• 17:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, I, I, I, I think so because it, it, it comes down to just biology, right?

• 17:26Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 17:27Speaker 01

  Um, and sort of what, what we're evolved for. There was a really interesting New York Times article. Kind of hit on a few months ago on a blog post about about this very topic about sort of just the the love life of couples where, you know, both the man and the woman or the woman is actually making more money than the man.

• 17:48Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 17:48Speaker 01

  You know, they sort of like, you know, very for and these women were they were executives. They're very forward thinking, very, you know, very progressive, like, yes, you know, that's this. But at the same time, they talked about, you know, they they, you know, advocated for like, you know, we split the chores at home fifty fifty, whatever, whatever. But then you still had these women like saying like, but I still want like my my husband to like take the lead.

• 18:13Lewis Howes?

  Yup.

• 18:13Speaker 01

  Um, in the relationship at times because like it makes me feel good, right? Like it makes me feel womanly or something like that.

• 18:20Lewis Howes?

  It's happening.

• 18:21Speaker 01

  And they've talked about, you know, even, you know, they interviewed marriage counselors and they said that, I mean, yeah, when that's one of a big problem that they're seeing more and more today is where men, because of the, you know, they've been told their life, like, you need to sort of just, you know, don't, don't take the lead, don't be assertive in the relationship, try to, you know, be egalitarian as much as you can, which is, which is noble and great, but it it sort of saps some of that visceral romance from the relationship and, you know, the wives are like, you know, these CEO wives are like, would you like, you know, make a decision about something like where we're gonna go for dinner and like, tell me just what we're gonna do and then, you know, you take the lead in the bedroom as as well.

• 19:03Speaker 01

  I mean, they're looking like, and it's it's sort of an awkward time, so we we don't know what to do because like we're told one thing, but then our biology and our emotions respond to something else. And so we, and this we're in this situation where, you know, it takes two to tango, but like we none of us know what to do.

• 19:22Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 19:22Speaker 01

  We just step on each other's toes.

• 19:24Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, it's interesting because, you know, I'm living in LA right now, you're in Oklahoma, I believe, right?

• 19:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:29Lewis Howes?

  And I was talking to a few, you know, girlfriends recently, who are friends of mine who are women, I'm actually in a relationship, but friends of mine who are women who are telling me how. It's been really a challenge for them to date right now because so many guys don't want to take the lead. They can't make a decision on where to go, like to take the woman out. They're like asking the woman, you know, what do you want to do? And what do you want to do as opposed to just being like, I'm going to take you out. Here's where we're going. Like I'm picking you up now this time. Yeah, wear this. Yeah, you know, and and these women friends of mine who are just like, you know, I've been single for a couple of years. I'm going on on dates a lot, but this seems just so helpless or hopeless with the men. And maybe it's an LA thing, uh, because there's more like options for men.

• 20:14Lewis Howes?

  So they're a little scatterbrained, but I don't know. It feels like women are like struggling to feel like they can drop into a feminine state because they feel like you have to be, they have to be in control so much with their job. And then when they come home, their man can't make a decision. So they need to be in control. So things get done and that there's always this like, not guard up, but kind of like a, a, a block of their natural feminine state up. And um, I think that's, yeah, that's a challenge right now.

• 20:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, it is a super challenge. I, it's, I, you, you see it a lot with younger guys, right? Like in their twenties and thirties.

• 20:49Lewis Howes?

  Yeah. What's up with younger guys? Why, why are, what's up with them? And what are their biggest challenges moving forward? Like the guys who just graduated or in college?

• 20:57Speaker 01

  So yeah, that's, that's a, it's a good question. There's a lot of, um, I think problems facing younger guys. You know, for starters, so like, you know, you can, the people have talked about the economy, right? That's a challenge for particularly for men, um, because jobs, you know, 50 years ago, you could get a job in a factory, uh, and have a middle class life and retire. And you'd have a pension and life would be great. That's no longer an option anymore, right? And, uh, so that's, that's, that's something that young men are struggling with, particularly men who don't go to college or who are in the, um, you know, lower socioeconomic, um, range, in our culture and our society.

• 21:42Speaker 01

  So that's, that's a challenge for sure. I think another challenge for young men would be the, the relationship thing, right? Um, like that you're talking about. So with a lot of these young guys, they grew up in a time where it's like you were told, okay, look, um, you know, things should be an egalitarian relationship, which, okay, look, I, I, I think that's an admirable thing to shoot for, but it's also they, while they're being told that-

• 22:05Lewis Howes?

  There's gotta be roles as well.

• 22:07Speaker 01

  There's gotta be roles, cause it, it roles bring some sort of, um-

• 22:11Lewis Howes?

  Structure.

• 22:12Speaker 01

  Structure.

• 22:13Lewis Howes?

  Right?

• 22:13Speaker 01

  Like, you know what to do.

• 22:14Lewis Howes?

  If there's no roles and it's like, yeah, like you said, we're both jumping on each other's toes and like-

• 22:18Speaker 01

  Both jumping on each other's toes and we don't know what to do and just like, it's just a lot of frustration.

• 22:23Lewis Howes?

  It's like, it's like playing a sport. There has to be roles in a, on a team sport. And everyone can't be the point guard in basketball.

• 22:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:30Lewis Howes?

  And everyone can't be the shooting guard. Like, someone's gotta go rebound.

• 22:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, exactly.

• 22:34Lewis Howes?

  Someone's gotta play defense, you know, it's like, you've gotta give and take.

• 22:37Speaker 01

  Yep, I, I agree. So, I mean, those are some, like, some younger kind of problems. I mean, there's like general, you know, kind of problems facing, um, men in general, like, you know, for, for example, boys, um, you know, there was a great article in Esquire about, you know, what we're doing to young boys, particularly with, uh, drugs, uh, like, uh, you know, Ritalin and that sort of thing where, you know, it, it's, it basically, we're, we're drugging boys for being boys.

• 23:04Lewis Howes?

  Right. To like, relax, calm down.

• 23:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, we want them to sit skill, still during class. Um, and, uh, so we hear, take this drug, everything's fine. Um, which I think is horrible. So, like, you know, the great, there's a, there's a great, um, uh, there's gonna be a great, uh, Ken Burns documentary coming out called The Roosevelts. And it's about the Roosevelt family, Teddy Roosevelt, uh, Franklin Roosevelt and Eleanor Roosevelt. And, uh, and sort of the pre-clip, there's talking about Teddy Roosevelt, who is a hero of mine. Um, if you go to the site, you'll probably see that we talk about Teddy Roosevelt all the time. Um, he's just a cool president. He's a manly dude. But, um, this biographer said that if Theodore Roosevelt as a boy was around today,

• 23:47Speaker 01

  like, they would drug Theodore Roosevelt with Ritalin, because he had so much energy and he was always doing like, just different stuff and getting into things. And they would have drugged him and we wouldn't have had that, um, a Teddy Roosevelt for a president. Yeah, so I mean, I think I'm a it's kind of scary to think about um some of the potential that we're missing out on from these young boys.

• 24:07Lewis Howes?

  Who are getting drugged up and.

• 24:09Speaker 01

  You're getting drugged up and the thing is a lot of these drugs like they they like, you know, make kids suicidal. They um I mean, they do some really this is like messes with your brain.

• 24:18Lewis Howes?

  Makes you very insecure or question yourself like, am I am I bad for having energy and doing this or you know.

• 24:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:25Lewis Howes?

  Feel guilty, all these things.

• 24:28Speaker 01

  So I mean, that's that. I think it's a challenge too, because um, you know, a lot of the school systems are set up for, you know, it girls are really adept for how school is set up where you sit still for a long time and you, you know, you know, get a lot, you cooperate, um, that sort of thing and uh, not so much for boys. So that's a challenge, I think.

• 24:48Lewis Howes?

  Right, man. I feel like if schools just had kids before every day run for thirty minutes, like mandatory thirty minute run on the track.

• 24:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:58Lewis Howes?

  Like, the rest of the day would be a lot better.

• 25:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, I I I agree.

• 25:02Lewis Howes?

  Something like that, right?

• 25:03Speaker 01

  Something, yeah.

• 25:03Lewis Howes?

  Who knows? That may not be the answer, but interesting. So what is what's what do you think is the biggest concern for on the issues we've talked about a little bit already, but for the modern man? What's the main two or three things that a modern man deals with?

• 25:17Speaker 01

  Ah, modern man. So I mean, the content that most people, most of the guys who read our site that resonate with or that they find the most useful are like, style content, because like they're looking for a way to feel more confident. They're looking for a way to feel more like a grown man, trying to transition from there.

• 25:40Lewis Howes?

  Not a boy.

• 25:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, not a boy. Um, social skills. You you I guess it's I don't know, like because of the internet and like video games or I don't know, whatever. There's like a lot of young men who have a hard time just interacting with people, um, you know, adeptly.

• 25:58Speaker 01

  Right?

• 25:58Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 25:59Speaker 01

  Um, and so like, you know, just basic social skills.

• 26:02Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 26:02Speaker 01

  Guys are looking for that sort of thing because the social skills goes a long way. I mean, not, not only a lot of guys, there's a, you know, the whole industry out there. You probably know about it, like with pickup artist stuff where they focus on sort of social skills towards, you know, how to pick up girl, women or whatever, but like, just like, just basic social skills, right?

• 26:19Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 26:19Speaker 01

  Like how to carry a conversation, how to introduce yourself, how to be self-aware, um, and, you know, understanding how people are perceiving you. Like not only, that, that, that applies to a whole broad range of human activities. It help, it'll help you be better in your work.

• 26:33Lewis Howes?

  Mm-hmm.

• 26:34Speaker 01

  It will help you in your romantic life and you don't have to like do any tricks in, in, um, as well. You just have to like, be able to carry on a conversation.

• 26:42Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 26:42Speaker 01

  With somebody. Um, it'll help you in your community life. I mean, it makes you a, just a, a better person. I feel like there's a lot of young men now, for whatever reason, um, who just didn't acquire those social skills. So whenever we're supposed to like share that sort of thing or pose that sort of thing, like people, like that's some of our most popular content.

• 27:01Lewis Howes?

  Right. What do you say?

• 27:05Lewis Howes?

  What do you think is the ultimate man for a woman? What, who is that man? What does he look like? How does he speak? How does he act? What does he do?

• 27:16Speaker 01

  I, I, it's, it's gonna be different for every, for every gal.

• 27:19Lewis Howes?

  Mm-hmm.

• 27:20Speaker 01

  Um, you know, cause every gal has different tastes.

• 27:22Lewis Howes?

  Sure.

• 27:23Speaker 01

  And, and who they find attractive, like, you know, there's a, um, I was talking, there's a couple at my church where, um, the girl was talking about how she met her husband and she's like, what did it for her was that he played the nose flute.

• 27:38Lewis Howes?

  What?

• 27:39Speaker 01

  You know, just like, she thought it was funny, you know?

• 27:41Lewis Howes?

  Interesting.

• 27:41Speaker 01

  And like, just endeared her to her and like, you know, if I did that, I'm sure if I did that for my wife, my wife would be like, what the heck? You're a weirdo. Don't do that. But, you know, just different folks for different strokes. I mean, but I, I think there's some kind of general, I mean, the research has shown this as well, like, um, uh, psych, psychological and sociological research has shown that there's just certain attributes that, um, women find, most women find attractive than a man. Um, I mean, I'm talking well-adjusted women here. Um, so just a guy with confidence.

• 28:07Lewis Howes?

  And, and we're mostly talking women in America, I'm assuming?

• 28:10Speaker 01

  Women in America. I mean, then actually, no, there's, there's sort of cross-cultural.

• 28:13Lewis Howes?

  Okay.

• 28:13Speaker 01

  Um, in a lot of ways. So a, a guy with confidence. Right, and it's not cocky confidence, it's just confidence, like quiet confidence, like he, he has a mission in life, he knows what he's doing, like he, he can be assertive. Uh, stand up for himself and, um, you know, whatever, has a mission in life. Um, a sense of humor can help out a lot. And, uh, is attractive uh, in women and, or in men, in men, in men. And then, uh, just being kind, caring, compassionate. Uh, those are, uh, David Buss, the evolutionary psychologist done across cultural. Study, I mean, those are characteristics that both men and women find attractive in a mate. Um, kind, caring, compassionate.

• 28:54Speaker 01

  And then, uh, you know, there are other things be- beyond that, um, it's gonna be a matter of personal taste, you know?

• 29:01Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 29:01Speaker 01

  Some women are gonna go like guys with brown hair.

• 29:03Lewis Howes?

  Beefier guys.

• 29:04Speaker 01

  Beefier guys, skinnier guys, like, you know, there's this whole idea that you gotta be like, if you wanna attract the ladies, you gotta like, be jacked. Well. You know, some women just don't find that attractive.

• 29:14Lewis Howes?

  They don't.

• 29:15Speaker 01

  You know, like, you know, I'm, I'm dark complected, I have brown hair, brown eyes, like my wife sort of likes that, like, she likes that in a guy, actually. Guys with brown hair, tan skin, that does it for me.

• 29:26Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 29:27Speaker 01

  You know, so you just gotta, I mean, it's, I think there's some general things you can do, just so develop confidence, um, develop some assertiveness, uh. Develop a sense of humor and develop some compassion and being kind and caring and.

• 29:41Lewis Howes?

  So let's talk, let's speak into that then. So those sound like three or four different things that all women want. Um, so if you're like, you know, a man that's not getting the woman you want, or not, you know, getting the women you want, or the relationship. What's, have you written about or given some exercises on how to be more confident, how to be more caring, how to be? I'm not sure the other two you said, but do you have exercises or some like simple things that people could take on right now?

• 30:06Speaker 01

  Sure, sure. So, yeah, I mean, we've, uh, we've written some content about being confident, being assertive. Um, and just standing up for yourself, like having a backbone and being assertive, it doesn't mean you have to be a jerk, right? It just means. You know, setting some boundaries and not letting people cross that, right?

• 30:22Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 30:23Speaker 01

  Um, so, you know, just speak up for yourself sometimes, right? If someone, if someone wants you to do something and, you know, it doesn't fit your schedule or you just don't want to do it, you know, it's okay to say no, right? And I feel like there's a lot of people who have a hard time saying, I have a hard time saying no, it's something I struggle with still, but, you know, learn how to say no, uh, because it might not fit your schedule. You know, have, confidence comes with, you know, developing confidence really is a fake it until you make it thing, I think, in a lot of cases. So you just have to act confident and you'll become confident. And then while you're acting, you have to actually do things that will make you confident, right? Does that make sense? So like, you know, act like you're, you know, if you are, I mean, if you're into, I don't

• 31:08Speaker 01

  know, whatever it is, like computer science or something like that, right? Um, you know, act like you're the most confident guy and try to be the best computer science guy that you can be. And there'll probably be some, be some woman who will be, find that sexy and attractive.

• 31:22Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 31:23Speaker 01

  In some way. And that's the thing, like, there's this great book, uh, I definitely recommend guys check out, it's called Swoon. And it's, it's about.

• 31:31Lewis Howes?

  Swoon, huh?

• 31:32Speaker 01

  Swoon, S W O O N. And it's just about, uh, like ladies, famous ladies men from history.

• 31:39Lewis Howes?

  Shut up.

• 31:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:40Lewis Howes?

  Uh, let me see what book this is, is, uh, who's this by?

• 31:43Speaker 01

  It's by a gal.

• 31:45Lewis Howes?

  Nina Malkin, is that who it is?

• 31:48Speaker 01

  I think she's like, she's like a historian or like a literature professor or something. Anyways, what I found interesting about this book is like some of like the, these like ladies mans from history, like they weren't like attractive dudes.

• 32:01Lewis Howes?

  No.

• 32:02Speaker 01

  Right?

• 32:02Lewis Howes?

  They had a charisma, right?

• 32:03Speaker 01

  They had a charisma about them, right? And like one of them is Lord Byron, uh, the writer and like the guy had a club foot, um, you know, he had some other physical deformities and like, he wasn't like a very, he could be unpleasant at times. But like women loved him, like they just wanted they they'd flock to him and like cheat on their husbands to be with him and they're like, okay, what's going on here? And you know, he just he had that charisma, he had that confidence, he had, um, you know, a skill and an art, right? That made, you know, that women find women found attractive.

• 32:35Lewis Howes?

  Interesting. I'm looking, it's called Swoon, Great Seducers and Why Women Love Them.

• 32:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:40Lewis Howes?

  By Betsy, Betsy Priolet, I think it is.

• 32:42Speaker 01

  Betsy Priolet, it's an interesting book. So kind of a historical analysis, because you get, you get an insight about, uh, ladies' men's from that you wouldn't think.

• 32:50Lewis Howes?

  They weren't like these super stud, physical.

• 32:52Speaker 01

  Exactly. Like another one that I thought was surprising was, um, The Architect, Frank Lloyd Wright. Um, women were apparently crazy about him. I mean, he wasn't, he's not admirable because like, you know, I think he, you know, he had affairs on his wife, which isn't cool, but, um, he was like this, you know, kind of arc, you know, geeky architect that wasn't, you know, you, your stereotypical alpha male, right? But, you know, women, women flock to him. So because, because like he had a confidence and he had like, he was passionate about something, he had a mission and like, you know, women, women definitely dig that in a guy.

• 33:28Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 33:28Speaker 01

  So it doesn't matter what it is, like find something, you're gonna find a woman who will probably find that attractive.

• 33:33Lewis Howes?

  Sure, and be confident in whatever that is.

• 33:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:36Lewis Howes?

  Now, let's talk about men and manly men and relationships and marriages. Now, you touched on it a second ago, but is the definition of a manly man, someone that is committed to and having one relationship, you know, marriage for the rest of their life, or is a manly man, someone that has multiple women, uh, multiple relationships, marriages, uh, mistresses? What, you know, it kind of goes against the alpha male bi- biological feelings of wanting to, I guess, spread your seed or whatever.

• 34:12Speaker 01

  Sure. That's, that's a great, great question. Um, so, yeah, for, for, for across time and across cultures, um, being a man like, you know, uh, un vero, um, un vero umro, hombre? I don't know, it's like an Italian.

• 34:27Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 34:28Speaker 01

  A true man, um, like that was the thing. You had to have not just one partner, like, but multiple partners, right? Um, and this was, you know, true in hunter gatherer tribes and even through ancient cultures like, you know, you see this in the ancient, ancient Israel, right? Solomon and David had wives and concubines. Uh, you've got, uh, what's that guy's name from Mongolia? Genghis Khan, who apparently, you know, like most like, it's like some large percentage of the world's population, uh, descended from Genghis Khan. Cause he had so many, so many wives or whatever. So yeah, there's definitely, there's sort of like that, you know, and this happens in the animal

• 35:08Speaker 01

  world as well. Like, you know, to be the alpha, you need to spread your seed in as many, um, places as you can. Um, but you know, look, uh, so yeah, I guess if you were looking at sort of a biological, and in some places, uh, in some cultures, it's, that was the case too. And yeah, being the manly man went like having as many partners as you could. And not only, you know, having partners, but actually fathering children. That was an important part of that, um, distinction. It's like you can't just have lots of concubines. You needed to create progeny with them as well.

• 35:41Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 35:42Speaker 01

  Um, but yeah, you know, today, like most, you know, since about, you know, for the past couple hundred years, um, monogamy is sort of the standard. And like, look, I'm, I'm a, I'm a religious guy. That's sort of the standard we set out and like, that's what it means. For me, it means to be a manly guy. So being a committed relationship is important to me. Um, so that's what I think. And some people will say, no, let's just mean sleeping around as many, many people as you can. But it's complicated.

• 36:10Lewis Howes?

  Yeah. I mean, it's, listen, I have thoughts where I'm like, I don't know if I can be with one woman for the rest of my life. Like that's how my body tells me that, you know, my mind, I can justify it. And if, if I'm in a loving relationship, then I don't think about that. Uh, but it's kind of like, you know, it's just like, why does my body tell me something different?

• 36:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:30Lewis Howes?

  And why do I have to fight something?

• 36:32Speaker 01

  Yeah. So I mean, yeah, there's definitely some of those biological, uh, drives. It's kind of funny. So the, the ancients, ancient Romans had this sort of distinction. There was a natural man and then there was man, man. And natural man was sort of like, that's every, every male is born natural man. And you had sort of these primal drives and urges. And to become a man, you had to sort of stifle or kill those urges.

• 36:58Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 36:58Speaker 01

  Um, by developing virtue.

• 37:00Lewis Howes?

  Interesting.

• 37:01Speaker 01

  Um, but for the Romans, um, I'm not saying that they were monogamous, strictly monogamous. They weren't. A lot of them had multiple wives and concubines, whatever. But that, that sort of idea, I, I think it's kind of cool. And you kind of, you saw it carry over into Christianity a little bit where, um, there is a natural man. We are born naturally with these sort of natural urges. And the task in life then is to, um, become man, just a man.

• 37:27Lewis Howes?

  To overcome those urges.

• 37:28Speaker 01

  Overcome those urges, um, by developing.

• 37:30Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 37:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, like basically just taming the animal, not killing it, but taming it.

• 37:36Lewis Howes?

  Is that a good thing to tame the animal?

• 37:38Speaker 01

  I think, I think, I think it's good to tame the animal. You shouldn't just kill it because those, those drives and those urges, um, are sort of like the, the machine that gets things going.

• 37:46Lewis Howes?

  That's true.

• 37:46Speaker 01

  And a lot of things done. Get things done.

• 37:48Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 37:48Speaker 01

  Right. There's like this cool idea, uh, in ancient Rome, uh, called of, of Thumos, which is, it was sort of translated as like heat or like energy or like anger sometimes. Um, it's not just Roman, it's like the Greeks had, it was actually, it's a Greek concept, Thumos. Anyways, um, the goal in life wasn't to like extinguish your Thumos. It was to kind of use that as the fuel to do great things and to do awesome, cool, awesome things that will leave a legacy.

• 38:16Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 38:16Speaker 01

  So yeah, don't, don't kill the animal within you. Just, just tame them and use them appropriately.

• 38:21Lewis Howes?

  So you think it is the manly thing to do to be in one relationship? When you find that person, be in, you know, be committed.

• 38:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 38:28Lewis Howes?

  When you make that commitment, stay in that commitment.

• 38:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 38:31Lewis Howes?

  Don't waver.

• 38:32Speaker 01

  Yeah. I'm not saying it's like, it's not, it's, it's not, it's that it's easy.

• 38:36Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 38:37Speaker 01

  It's, it's a challenge, right? But, um, you know, it's not impossible because I, there's lots of people who've done it who are, you know, eighty, ninety years old and like.

• 38:46Lewis Howes?

  Sure.

• 38:46Speaker 01

  They love each other, right?

• 38:47Lewis Howes?

  Sure. And you've, uh, and you, how long have you been married? You're with Kate, right?

• 38:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, Kate, we've been married for nine years.

• 38:54Lewis Howes?

  And how, and she works with you on the side as well, right?

• 38:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 38:56Lewis Howes?

  So what's that like, one, working together as a married couple? And working on, you know, manly topics like, what is that? What is that like?

• 39:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, so like, you know, she helps you write some of the content and a lot of the content that we write is applicable to both men and women, except we just kind of put it, I give it sort of a manly spin towards it, right? Make it more appealing to guys. Yes, because it's like career advice, relationship advice that that's applicable to men and women, uh, financial advice, whatever. So, yeah, I mean, she, it's, it's interesting for, for sure, because it's made us, you know, we, because we run a blog about the art of man, it's made us a little bit more, I guess, uh, self-conscious or aware of like gender roles and things like that. And I don't think we, I don't think we would have, uh, otherwise would have been if it were not for the blog.

• 39:44Speaker 01

  Because like you read about this stuff, you're reading about the sociobiology and the anthropology of gender roles and, I don't know, it just, it make, it brings it to the forefront of your relationship. And I think most people, most couples don't really think about it. They just sort of take it for granted. So that's kind of a weird thing that I think a lot of couples don't have to think about or deal with.

• 40:02Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 40:03Speaker 01

  Um, but I mean, it, it, we work, I mean, it, it works out great. We love working with each other. I'm not saying that it's like all, um, just flowers and honeybees and birds. Uh, you know, we, we have arguments and

• 40:15Lewis Howes?

  Sure.

• 40:15Speaker 01

  It's time, it's like any business relationship. Uh, and it's just, it's a little more difficult because it's, we're also, we're also married.

• 40:23Lewis Howes?

  So how do you try, how do you, you know, because this, this is your, this is your passion and it's like you think it, breathe it and live it all day long. It doesn't feel like work to you. So how do you turn it off? Be like, okay.

• 40:33Speaker 01

  I don't think you can. I mean, every, everyone says like, oh yeah, like I

• 40:37Lewis Howes?

  But you love it so much that you can't.

• 40:38Speaker 01

  So much. It's hard. And it's just hard. And I mean, I think it's important to just unplug, you know, like we try to, we, we're trying to be very good about, you know, from, from when the kids wake up until 12 o'clock, uh, when we, before we drop them off at Kate, my wife's, um, mom's house. Like we just try to, it's kid time. And then when we pick them up at six, until when they go to bed, it's kid time. Like we don't, we turn off the computers, put away the cell phones, put away the tablets, and it's just relationship time. And then when the kids go to bed, my wife and I, we try to have, you know, mommy daddy time, you know, just like it's, it's time to nurture that relationship. Outside of the blog. But I mean, but yeah, blog's going to come up during personal time, personal stuff's going to come up during the blog time.

• 41:21Speaker 01

  Um, but one thing that's helped us is again, establishing roles within the business, right? And knowing, because at the beginning, we really, like, I started the blog and then we started kind of working together. And then it was just sort of like, it was sort of kind of amorphous for a while. And then we had, okay, we need to establish roles. Like, here's what you do, here's what I do. Because before it was just sort of like, okay, did you do this? Or should I be doing that? Or what's going on? So now we have like, this is what I do, this is what you do. And then we'll meet together every morning before we, or every afternoon before we start our workday to sort of sync up.

• 41:52Lewis Howes?

  Hmm. That's pretty cool. I mean, do you guys, this is full time for both of you, correct?

• 41:57Speaker 01

  Correct.

• 41:57Lewis Howes?

  And it brings in a full time, you know, income for you guys to live comfortably and, you know, have employees and do the whole thing. And how many employees do you have?

• 42:05Speaker 01

  Well, we have, um, we have a whole bevy of staff, like, you know,

• 42:08Lewis Howes?

  Part time here and there.

• 42:09Speaker 01

  Part time, so they're there. Um, then we have a guy in Colorado, Jeremy Andenberg, he's our managing editor. Um, so it's like, it's us three primarily who kind of make the ship run.

• 42:20Lewis Howes?

  Sure. Got you. And what's that like for you, being able to, you know, you used to be, you were doing law, is that right? You're doing, you were going to be.

• 42:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, I never practiced law. I mean, I, I, by the time I graduated law school, like the site was earning like enough revenue where I could like eke out a living and like try to make a go at it full time.

• 42:37Lewis Howes?

  And you loved it a lot more than law?

• 42:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, yeah. I mean, I enjoyed law. Like, a lot of people like, said like they hate law. There's some people who hate law. I enjoyed law school. Um, and I think I would have had a pretty fulfilling and rewarding career there. But this was a, I don't know, this opportunity came up and it was a lot more, it was just interesting and I wanted to see where it went, so I took it.

• 43:00Lewis Howes?

  And how far do you see it going for you? What do you see coming from this?

• 43:03Speaker 01

  That's, that's the, the million dollar question because, I mean, look, what I'm doing, like writing online for a living, uh, it's only been around for maybe.

• 43:13Lewis Howes?

  Ten years, right?

• 43:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, ten years. Yeah, that's like, you know, being.

• 43:16Lewis Howes?

  Really, two thousand and five was kind of like, two thousand and six, when blogging was like coming on and people were making money.

• 43:22Speaker 01

  And so, um, and it's, I don't know, like, it's, it's hard to say, like, with most jobs, right? Like, my dad, he was a, a federal game warden. Like, there was a, that's, you know, a predefined career path. Like, you knew you had job security because the government needed game, game wardens to check duck hunters. Um, with blogging, though, like, man, it's, it's, it's new. So you're, you're always, everything's, everything's always changing. Um, things come and go and you have to adapt. You know, for example, like, one way we've had to adapt is, like, you know, beginning of the we- website. Um, Dig, like, these social media sites were, like, a big source of our-

• 43:58Lewis Howes?

  Sending a lot of traffic.

• 43:59Speaker 01

  Sending a lot of traffic, but then, like, okay, dig.com-

• 44:01Lewis Howes?

  Died.

• 44:02Speaker 01

  Died. And it's like, okay, crap.

• 44:04Lewis Howes?

  Now what?

• 44:05Speaker 01

  What do I do now?

• 44:06Lewis Howes?

  So you gotta learn SEO, you gotta learn another strategy, you gotta build your own following. And now you have a huge, you know, following on social media, right? You got, like, I think a half a million fans on Facebook or-

• 44:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 44:16Lewis Howes?

  And it's really big.

• 44:17Speaker 01

  Yep, it's, it's gotten really big, newsletter, Twitter, Instagram, Google Plus, it's all over the place.

• 44:23Lewis Howes?

  It's great. So, basically, you're, you had to rely on one thing before, and then when that died out, were you like, let's create a social media strategy, let's do these other things to get traffic, or?

• 44:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, I didn't really, I guess I didn't stra- I just, I, I thought it was an important place. I just, I, I think it's good when you're online to be as in many places as you can be. Because the, the nature of the internet is, it's gonna fragment your audience, right?

• 44:48Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 44:49Speaker 01

  Certain people are only gonna use Tumblr, certain people are only gonna use Facebook, certain people are only gonna use RSS feed, certain people are only going to use, you know, listen to podcasts. Um, but they all want to be, like, they, they, they, they would love the art of manliness if they had it in front of them. So I think it's a, a good strategy to, you know, I guess, uh, not, to be network neutral, I guess is the word, right? Platform neutral.

• 45:16Lewis Howes?

  Right. Interesting. What's the biggest traffic source for you right now?

• 45:20Speaker 01

  Uh, Facebook is our biggest traffic source.

• 45:22Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 45:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 45:23Lewis Howes?

  Cause whenever I share one of your articles, it gets so many shares.

• 45:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 45:27Lewis Howes?

  Reshares, you know?

• 45:28Speaker 01

  I mean, it's, it's crazy. I mean, it's, we, we're fortunate that we have a lot of, uh, just very actively engaged, um, Facebook fans. Uh, and, uh, yeah, I mean, we just put some, and like people always ask me like, what's your, what's your Facebook strategy? And like, there's like no really strategy. Like I

• 45:44Lewis Howes?

  Put up content.

• 45:46Speaker 01

  And then I'll, I'll, I'll share that piece of content on my Facebook page.

• 45:49Lewis Howes?

  That's it. Yeah.

• 45:50Speaker 01

  That's it.

• 45:50Lewis Howes?

  That's funny. Interesting. Nice, man. Well, where do you see the man, the man's man, the manly man, the real man moving forward? Uh, over the next 20, 50 years, like how, what, what are, what's next for us in this, in this women, you know? As things are evolving and women are, are moving into the workforce, like you said, and wanting to be independent and which I don't think is anything wrong with that. It's just how things are evolving. What, what should men be thinking about? You know, whether you're a 20 year old man or a 30 or 40 year old, what should we be thinking about continually to focus on? Uh, to become better versions of ourselves moving forward?

• 46:29Speaker 01

  Yeah. Uh, that's a great question. Uh, we, I, I kind of, the last few months I've been exploring that question, right? We started off with what it meant, what, what manhood has meant across time and across cultures? And, um, what it means today or what we can do to sort of tap into that sort of, uh, primal is the right word, but sort of that primal, um, those instincts that we have on what it means to be a man. And I, I think the, the best thing you can do, right? Like we're never going to go back to, you know, barring some catast- catastrophe like that annihilates civilization and we go back to like the road, you know, how it was in the book, the road. Right? I don't think we're ever going to go back to a time where it was like, you know, our ancient forebears, right? Where

• 47:13Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 47:13Speaker 01

  Men, every man battled and every, you know, women just, you know, took care of the home and like farm, you know, took care of planting a garden, whatever, and took care of kids. Um, but we still have that sort of genetic or psychological baggage, right? That evolved with that. So my, my advice would be is to find ways in any way you can to tap into that. Um, and it could be, you know, for example, like being physically strong. I think is, I don't know, it feels, it's stupid and kind of silly, you can say, right? But like, I, I think it feels awesome to do like a heavy deadlift.

• 47:48Lewis Howes?

  Mm hmm.

• 47:48Speaker 01

  It makes me feel manly. I mean, I, I used to not think that, but I got into deadlifting, like powerlifting. I was like, man, this is really cool.

• 47:54Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 47:55Speaker 01

  Um, finding ways to, you know, take the lead in a relationship. Doesn't mean you have to be some jerk, patriarchal jerk about it, but you know, find ways you can, you know, do you just tell, you know, when you ask a woman on a date, say, hey, instead of saying, hey, I like to go out. What do you want to do? Say, have a plan. Pick up the phone, give her a call. Here's what we're gonna do. Would you like to come?

• 48:17Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 48:18Speaker 01

  And there you go. And then find ways to, to lead in your family, right? I think, uh, having a family is a great opportunity for, for men to, to take the lead and, and, you know, not just with your wife, but with your kids as well. So like, one thing I'm trying to do as a new dad, cause I'm not that new, kid's almost four years old. But, uh, uh, you know, have a, have a, developing a mission for our family. And, you know, it's, it's amazing, like you have this chance to like pass on, you know, values that are important to you to, to your kids, right? And like, you get, and that you're gonna, they're, they're gonna be there after you're dead.

• 48:54Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 48:54Speaker 01

  And I just, it's, it's very scary and humbling, but also like really exciting at the same time. You can have that sort of influence on a person. Um, so that, I mean, those are, I mean, just find ways to tap into sort of that ancient man stuff that, that lies dormant in us. And any way you can, doesn't mean you have to like go off to war, but maybe it could mean you, um, take up Brazilian Jiu Jitsu or something like that.

• 49:20Lewis Howes?

  Interesting.

• 49:21Speaker 01

  So that's my, that's my take on it. And I mean, and like, what's the result is like, okay, what's the point? Like you feel more manly. What does that mean? I think it just, it, that, that sort of confidence and feeling like that carries over into other aspects of your life. And it just makes you, it makes you a better husband, makes you a better boyfriend, it makes you a better, um, business owner or employee or a community member. It just, it just, I don't know, it just infuses your life with a little bit more vim and vigor.

• 49:47Lewis Howes?

  Hmm. I like it. When, when, when do you think art of manliness will have succeeded?

• 49:53Speaker 01

  I think it already has, man. Like, I mean, It's amazing. I get letters, like actual handwritten letters

• 50:02Speaker 01

  in my P O. Box every week and they're all thank you letters. Where it's like guys who are telling, who are just sharing with me like how the site has changed their life. You know, they talk about how they were in a bad place. You know, they just got a divorce, or maybe they broke up with their girlfriend, or um, you know, something they were depressed. I mean, something was wrong with their life and they stumbled upon the art of manliness. Because like their friends shared one of our kind of more silly posts, like, you know, we did a post like how to poop like a samurai. But they thought, you know, they stuck around and like dug into our archives and saw some of our, you know, content that, you know, just sort of a little bit more deeper.

• 50:41Speaker 01

  And they got hooked on it and they just started, you know, reading it every day and actually putting into practice the things we we write about and it changed their life. Like they, they, they talk about how like, you know, I'm feeling more confident. I've got a great, I'm in a great relationship now. My, or my relationship is better with my girlfriend or my wife. Um, I mean, those are the kind of letters I get, get every week. And um, I mean, that, that's to me, that's, that's, that's being successful right there.

• 51:11Lewis Howes?

  I love it. Well, before I ask the final question, which is what I ask all my guests. Want to make sure everyone goes and checks out art of manliness dot com. Art of manliness dot com and everywhere on Facebook, you know, make sure to follow Brett and Art of Manliness on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, everywhere. Um, got a great shop. If you go to the store on art of manliness dot com, got a great shop. You can get some cool mugs, you can get some cool T shirts and notebooks. You've got some amazing things you said that are coming out soon. That I'll let you guys subscribe to the newsletter and see and wait and see what those cool manly products are. If you're a man, I recommend getting them. If you're a woman listening, I recommend getting them for your man or a man friend.

• 51:53Lewis Howes?

  They're really cool and uh, check everything out at art of manliness dot com. And go into the final question, which is what is your definition of greatness?

• 52:04Speaker 01

  My definition of greatness is doing what you can where you are. And there's a saying, okay, whatever their art, act well thy part. Wherever you are in life, whatever capabilities you have, do it to the utmost and try to make a change there.

• 52:24Lewis Howes?

  That's it. Brett McKay, I appreciate you, man. Thanks for coming on the show. Thanks, Lewis. It's been a pleasure.

• 52:43Lewis Howes?

  I hope you guys enjoyed this episode. I was very engaged in this topic because obviously I'm a man and there are things that I've had to learn over the years based on relationships and understanding roles and being confused in roles and all these different things. So for me, it was very insightful to have this conversation and I hope to have Brett back on here in the near future. Make sure to check out Art of Manliness.com to learn more. We've got all the show notes and some cool videos from this episode over at LewisHowes.com/84. That's LewisHowes.com/84 to check out all the manly notes from this episode. And I appreciate you

• 53:23Lewis Howes?

  guys. We're gonna keep ramping these episodes up with amazing, incredible, inspiring, influential guests. We've been doing twice a week lately, so if you have yet to subscribe, please subscribe over on iTunes, over on Stitcher. Leave us a review on iTunes as it'll help get the word out about the School of Greatness podcast. And I'm just so grateful for everyone who listens and for you for taking the time to listen today. It means the world to me. I appreciate you so much. And I'm excited to see what you're creating in your life and what great things lie ahead. So, again, thanks to guys again for sharing this online, for tweeting about it, putting it on Facebook with your friends, for subscribing. I appreciate you guys so much.

• 54:06Lewis Howes?

  You guys know what time it is. It's time to go out there and do something great.

• 54:33Lewis Howes?

  Juggalos.