S3 Ep384: Elizabeth Smart | A Prophet in Prison (Part 4)

In June of 2002, a 14-year-old girl was taken from her bedroom in the middle of the night, from a quiet home in one of the safest neighborhoods in one of the safest cities in America. Her name was Elizabeth Smart. This case has endured for more than two decades, not only because of what happened to Elizabeth, but because of how it happened. It forces us to confront uncomfortable questions about trust, faith, and what happens when deeply held beliefs collide with someone willing to exploit them. Elizabeth wasn't held for hours or days. She was a prisoner for nine months, subjected to repeated trauma and torture that would have broken most adults. But Elizabeth's story is not just about what happened to her. It's also about survival and strength. It's about a young girl who would later turn the unimaginable into advocacy and support for victims of kidnapping and sexual violence. Try our coffee! - www. CriminalCoffeeCo.comBecome a Patreon member -- > ｿ https://www.patreon.com/CrimeWeeklyShop for your Crime Weekly gear here --> ｿ https://crimeweeklypodcast.com/shopYoutube: https://www.youtube.com/c/CrimeWeeklyPodcastWebsite: CrimeWeeklyPodcast.comInstagram: @CrimeWeeklyPodTwitter: @CrimeWeeklyPodFacebook: @CrimeWeeklyPodADS:1. https://www. MintMobile.com/CrimeWeekly - Get UNLIMITED premium wireless for just $15 a month!2. https://www. HelloFresh.com/CrimeWeekly10FM - Get 10 FREE meals and a FREE zwilling knife on your third box!3. https://www. Rula.com/CrimeWeekly - Connect with quality therapists TODAY!4. https://www. OneSkin.co/CrimeWeekly - Use code CRIMEWEEKLY for 15% off your order!

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:11Stephanie Harlowe?

  Hello, everybody. Welcome back to Crime Weekly. I'm Stephanie Harlow.

• 0:15Derrick Levasseur?

  And I'm Derrick Levasseur.

• 0:16Stephanie Harlowe?

  I am sick and we've been filming for a few hours already doing Crime Weekly news and ads and stuff.

• 0:22Derrick Levasseur?

  Recording on Sunday because there's a blizzard coming this week and we wanted to make sure we had an episode for you guys. The only way to do it was to come in on Sunday, record it, and that way if we get trapped inside, you guys still have an episode.

• 0:34Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, I've been getting sick, but I was hoping that by Monday when we filmed my voice, but you know, it's doing okay.

• 0:39Derrick Levasseur?

  In fairness, Stephanie is always sick.

• 0:41Stephanie Harlowe?

  I've been sick since November. It's not my fault.

• 0:43Derrick Levasseur?

  Honestly, in the five years we've been together, I want someone to put a montage of all the episodes where you've been like, "I'm a little under the weather. I'm sick."

• 0:51Stephanie Harlowe?

  It's because I don't sleep, man. It's because I don't sleep.

• 0:53Derrick Levasseur?

  I would say at least 50 episodes.

• 0:55Stephanie Harlowe?

  Guys, sleep is so key. When it comes to your immune system, there's nothing better you can do than to get a good night's sleep. Because I can't. I have work to do and files that have been released to look through. That's been keeping me up at night for multiple reasons.

• 1:10Derrick Levasseur?

  Those files alone would take you 10 years to go through.

• 1:12Stephanie Harlowe?

  I mean, I've been making pretty good headway, actually.

• 1:15Derrick Levasseur?

  You sent me a couple of text messages. There was a couple of text messages I sent you of things we saw in there that I don't think a lot of people have seen.

• 1:21Stephanie Harlowe?

  There's stuff I've seen in there that I will never be able to say out loud to you or anyone else. That I will never be able to vocalize out into the world. Okay, so let's dive in. I'm actually really looking forward to talking about this episode because this is the episode where finally movement is made and we've got somebody, two people, taken into custody, the two people who have had Elizabeth. So this is where things are going to happen and Elizabeth's going to get to go back home. But before that, a bunch of other stuff has to happen. So we're going to get right in today. We talked about how in the last episode, Richard Reesey had been not arrested for Elizabeth's abduction, arrested for a parole violation that we kind of both agreed was just a strategic way to get him behind bars

• 2:04Stephanie Harlowe?

  so they could question him and start searching for his home and his vehicle. And they really did think it was him. The police did. Even when he died in prison, the police still thought that it was him. But there was plenty of things that should have told the police that they could have kept looking and there was other investigative paths to follow. And one of those things that happened at the time when Elizabeth was missing that should have suggested Richard Reesey was not the one responsible for Elizabeth's kidnapping happened on July 24th, 2002. So there was a reported attempted break-in at the home of Elizabeth's young cousin, Olivia. And the police said, because they kept a cap on this, they never really talked even

• 2:47Stephanie Harlowe?

  how deep it went and how serious this attempted, reported break-in was. They just said that there was an attempted break-in and it was the cousin of Elizabeth Smart, but it was not related to Elizabeth's abduction, which is not true. They said it was a copycat. They said it was someone messing around, someone just trying to like mess with the family. In fact, it was connected to Elizabeth Smart. So at the camp with Mitchell and Barzee, Elizabeth had to listen to a lot of ranting and raving about all of the people who had harmed Mitchell or done him wrong throughout his life. And one day in July, Mitchell was complaining about his mother, Irene, and he mentioned where his mother lived. And Elizabeth perked up. She recognized something from her old life and she told him that his mother lived in

• 3:32Stephanie Harlowe?

  the same neighborhood as her cousin Olivia, who was about the same age as her. Now, at first, Elizabeth thought she had messed up by talking about her past because usually if she did that, Mitchell would get really mad and he would say, "You're not Elizabeth Smart. Your name is Shersheba or Esther or whatever. That is not your life. That was never your life. This is your life. You don't get to talk about that." He'd get very mad and he would do things to let her know that he was mad. And so she accidentally lets it slip just because she's so excited to hear something about her good times in life. She's like, "Oh, my cousin lives in that neighborhood." And Mitchell didn't react the way he normally would. So Elizabeth went on talking. She was happy to be able to talk about a happier time. And she talked about how she and Olivia had been close.

• 4:16Stephanie Harlowe?

  They played at her house where there was a swing in the front yard and a pear tree. And Mitchell told her, "Hey, I know the house you're talking about." It's a yellow house, right? And so then, the next morning, everyone woke up, Mitchell and Wanda and Elizabeth. And Brian Mitchell told Elizabeth, quote, "The Lord has commanded me to go out again. He has commanded me to go and take Olivia to be my next wife. I'm going to go and get her and bring her back here," end quote. So Elizabeth now feels guilty, obviously, because it was not her intention to put a target on her cousin Olivia's back. And now Mitchell's saying, "I'm gonna go make Olivia my, my new wife." And Elizabeth knows what that means, that Olivia's gonna go through the same things that Elizabeth has gone through.

• 4:57Stephanie Harlowe?

  And Elizabeth also is thinking, "Well, he will be successful in getting her and kidnapping her because he was successful in doing it to me." So Mitchell then began to plan his abduction, and he chose the date of July 24th, which was a state holiday, meaning there would be lots of traffic in the city, there'd be parades and chaos all over Salt Lake City. And that morning, Mitchell hiked into the city, he stole some beer from a convenience store, and then he drank it. He then took a bus to Olivia's neighborhood, and he hid in his mother's yard until it was the middle of the night, at which point he emerged and he went to Olivia's house. He checked the doors, they were all locked. He checked the windows, he found one that was open just a crack. So the way he had done it at Elizabeth's house, he brought a patio chair over, he leaned

• 5:40Stephanie Harlowe?

  it up against the side of the house so he could open the window further and cut the screen. He did all of that. But when he reached his hand through the window, he pushed something off, a dresser or a table that was in front of the window, and it crashed to the ground and is shattered. And obviously, lights are turning on in the house, people are running to see what made the noise. And, and obviously, this is because this is Elizabeth's family, and they're already on edge because of what has just happened to her, and now it's happening at their house. So Mitchell later told Elizabeth that this is when he realized the Lord had not chosen Olivia to be his next wife, and he ran like hell. So, understand, the scene at Olivia's house is exactly as it was at Elizabeth's.

• 6:22Stephanie Harlowe?

  There's a patio chair leaning up against the house, the screen of the window is cut open. And the police are gonna say, no, no, no, this is not anything to do with Elizabeth Smart. This is not the same. It's just a copycat. All of this stuff, even though they hadn't released the patio chair information to the public. So how could it be a copycat? But they already had Reese in prison, who they thought for sure was Elizabeth's abductor. So we have a little tunnel vision here, I'd say.

• 6:50Derrick Levasseur?

  I would agree with you. They, they, and also it just shows that they did something. It's not even tunnel vision. I think it's also about reputation and, and if, dare I say ego, where they were convinced they were right and anything that would suggest otherwise, they, it wasn't just tunnel vision. They deliberately looked the other way or, or discredited it because they didn't want to be wrong.

• 7:13Stephanie Harlowe?

  Well, they also were like, we have somebody in prison and we've been putting this person through, you know.

• 7:18Derrick Levasseur?

  That's what I'm saying. That's what I'm saying. They, they, like tunnel vision is one thing, right? Like, make no mistake about it. Tunnel vision can happen to even good investigators where they want to do the right thing, but they're so focused on one narrative that they unintentionally miss other things, i.e. tunnel vision. But here.

• 7:36Stephanie Harlowe?

  So this is like cognitive bias more.

• 7:38Derrick Levasseur?

  This is something you see, you know it's happening and yet you choose to not acknowledge it or see it for what most people would have seen it as, which is, okay, either A, we have a copycat, or B, this is who we're looking for and that would mean that the guy that's currently in jail right now, he ain't it.

• 7:54Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, I mean, it's Elizabeth's cousin and it's the exact same memo. And you're gonna, and you're gonna go in the papers and be like, completely unrelated, guys.

• 8:01Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, no.

• 8:01Stephanie Harlowe?

  Come on.

• 8:02Derrick Levasseur?

  I think, I think there's a little bit of trying to protect their own reputation at that point.

• 8:06Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, and ignoring it intentionally, maybe for their own.

• 8:10Derrick Levasseur?

  Ignoring it intentionally is definitely, you were being kind by saying tunnel vision.

• 8:15Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, so for those first few months at the camp, Elizabeth was very rarely released from her chains. Brian David Mitchell would often leave the camp. He said he was going out for food and supplies and to minister to the public, while Wanda and Elizabeth stayed behind. Now, there was one time when Wanda and Mitchell had a big fight. According to Elizabeth, they fought all the time. And we heard this from Wanda's own kids. They said they fought all the time. But according to Elizabeth, at the camp, they argued constantly, but this was a really big one. And Wanda actually like ran away. She took off down the mountain. So Mitchell was forced to unchain Elizabeth so that they could go and find Wanda. And this makes me think that Mitchell was maybe a little worried that Wanda would be so mad at him that she might go and get somebody and be like, hey, my, my husband has this girl here.

• 8:59Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, that's a valid fear. Yeah, well, he didn't trust her, right? Right. Whatever you want to say that he married her and cared about her or whatever. He didn't trust her. He didn't trust anybody. That was one of his whole, you know, mental health things throughout his life, that he had this paranoia that everybody was out to get him. So this ended up being a turning point because they did find Wanda. She was at one of the lower camps that they'd set up previously. She did not betray Brian David Mitchell. And she was brought back to the camp, but she expressed her unhappiness that Mitchell got to leave every week and go into town and drink alcohol and smoke cigarettes

• 9:39Stephanie Harlowe?

  while she and Elizabeth sat there in the elements starving without water and food waiting for him to return. And she told Mitchell she wasn't going to do it anymore. And I think Mitchell's thinking, well, okay, she might actually turn me in and she might turn on me if I don't give her a little bit of what she wants. He realized that she wasn't going to give in and let go of this desire to go into town. So he agreed that all three of them could go down into the city. But first they had to make preparations and Elizabeth had to scrape off the remnants of the blue nail polish she had on her toenails. Mitchell and Barzy also sewed veils to attach to the sides of Wanda's and Elizabeth's headdresses so that their faces were hidden.

• 10:22Stephanie Harlowe?

  And as they walked down the mountain, Brian David Mitchell would take the lead. Elizabeth would be behind him and then Wanda was behind her so that, you know, they were kind of closing her in. Elizabeth said that they were never more than just a few feet away from her. There was no chance that she could have escaped. Now, the first time they go down, they did, they saw people on their way down to Salt Lake City. When they were about a mile from the city, a jogger ran by. And then a bit further, someone on a bike passed. And in Elizabeth's mind, she was screaming and she kept like looking at them because all you can really see with her veil on is her eyes. She's looking at them hoping that they like Recognize her. Recognize her and be like, you know, she's got these beautiful blue eyes. There's posters of her all over the city.

• 11:06Stephanie Harlowe?

  So she's hoping somebody will see this, but they didn't. And in reality, she was way too afraid to make a sound. She thought no one was going to recognize her, all cloaked and veiled up. And in fact, once they got into the city, Elizabeth realized the way that they were dressed made people not want to look at her. She said people acted like they were radioactive and stayed as far away from them as possible. So they look like these kind of religious zealots. They've got, you know, Mitchell's got robes on. He's got this hu- wild beard and long hair. And then Elizabeth and Wanda are all robed up with the veils on their head and the veils on their face. And so she said people actually, like them being dressed that way made people not look their way. And she realized this pretty shortly into going into the city.

• 11:51Stephanie Harlowe?

  So that day, that first day, they go into Salt Lake City. They stopped at a liquor store. Mitchell goes in, he steals alcohol. He's always stealing things. He steals alcohol. And this is what he would do when he'd go down into Salt Lake City. He said he was, you know, getting food and stuff, but no, he would just go down, get drunk, smoke cigarettes, do drugs, and then kind of scrounge the garbage for something to bring back to Elizabeth and Wanda. And if he would panhandle and make money in the city, he would buy himself food at a restaurant and then bring them back like dumpster food. Yeah, so that's what he was doing. So they stop at a liquor store, they steal some alcohol, Mitchell does, and then they went to a park. And Mitchell made up three rum and cokes and handed one to Elizabeth. And she said this is how they spent the afternoon, hanging out at a park and drinking until Mitchell

• 12:36Stephanie Harlowe?

  and Wanda had finished the entire bottle of rum. And Elizabeth felt like she was going to be sick. Obviously, she's a 14-year-old girl. She's never had alcohol before. Mormons aren't supposed to have alcohol. They're not even supposed to have caffeine. But Wanda and Mitchell, they like their alcohol. So as it got dark, Mitchell said they were going to go to a house party that a clerk at the convenience store had told him about. And Elizabeth said they walked to this house, they walked into the house, and there was people drinking and smoking and kissing and doing all sorts of things she never could have imagined. So for a few minutes at this point, Mitchell's attention was off Elizabeth as he made himself the center of attention. He kind of got in the middle of the party. He was drinking and he told the partygoers that he was a prophet.

• 13:17Stephanie Harlowe?

  But even God ate and drank among the sinners and he was happy to be amongst the lesser people of the world. And as this is happening and Mitchell's, you know, preaching to the party, Elizabeth recognized the clerk from the convenience store they'd been in earlier. And she said she lifted her veil so that he could see more of her face. And she looked at him and he was studying her face really intently. And she was like, oh, my God, he's going to recognize me. And then all he did was tell her she had beautiful eyes. So, yeah.

• 13:46Derrick Levasseur?

  You may think that someone would be immediately recognize her, but you have to understand from where they're coming, they're not expecting to have Elizabeth Smart standing in front of them either.

• 13:55Stephanie Harlowe?

  At a house party.

• 13:56Derrick Levasseur?

  Right. And so as much, I'm sure that person regrets that now, but you can't, you can't put the blame on them because unless you're actively looking for that person, your guard's going to be down. You know, like you said, you're at a house party, you know, you're not, that's not what you're thinking.

• 14:12Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, you're at a house party and there's some crazy religious prophet guy preaching at the party. You don't think Elizabeth Smart dressed in a veil and robes is going to be with this person.

• 14:23Derrick Levasseur?

  Right.

• 14:23Stephanie Harlowe?

  You just think that she's part of the cult or whatever. Yeah, it's really sad, actually. She does this a lot. She does this a lot, just staring at people, hoping they recognize her because she's too afraid to say anything. So then Mitchell forced Elizabeth to drink out of a glass jar that was being passed around the room. He told her it was absinthe and she needed to drink it because it caused hallucinations. I don't think it was absinthe. I've never seen absinthe be served in a glass jar. It sounds more like moonshine or something like that, but either way, very strong, right? Very, very strong sort of alcohol. And Brian David Mitchell kept up his preaching and overconsumption of the alcohol at the party. And then the kids there, they got tired of it and they're like, get out of here. You're annoying. They pushed them out.

• 15:06Stephanie Harlowe?

  And when Wanda suggested they go back to the camp because she was tired, Elizabeth said she was actually relieved, right? This was a very long, bad day. It's like, okay, I get to get out, but now I've realized nobody's going to recognize me. People are actively avoiding looking at me and these two adults have forced me to drink and go to a house party. I'm tired. We've been walking all day. We've been drinking all day. I feel sick. She said it made her feel so, the alcohol made her feel so drowsy and groggy and just heavy because she's a 14 year old girl who's never had alcohol before. So Elizabeth's actually. relieved when Wanda's like, let me bring you back to the place where we chain you up. And that's how bad it was to be with these people that she just wanted to get back to the

• 15:47Stephanie Harlowe?

  one place she felt familiar. This was so unfamiliar to her, the, the whole routine they were putting her through that day with the drinking and the house parties that she was like, yeah, let me just get back to the quiet of my prison camp. So at one point, as they were walking back, Brian David Mitchell laid down in the road and he fell asleep because he was drunk off his ass. And Wanda was getting mad. So she stood there for a while with Elizabeth, waiting for him to wake up. And then he wouldn't wake up. So she was like kicking him. She's like, come on, get up, you know? And then the sun started to rise and she, and Wanda got really upset. And she said, get up, you're not acting like a prophet of God. And if you don't get up, I'm going to take Esther, AKA Elizabeth and leave. And Brian David Mitchell did not get up. He was just passed out on the side of the road, like a bum. So Wanda

• 16:31Stephanie Harlowe?

  and Elizabeth, they kept walking back to camp. Now, things changed after this. Elizabeth was not tied up to the trees anymore. And Mitchell announced that the Lord had veiled the eyes of the city, and the, the Lord wanted them to be around the people, to walk among them, because the Lord would keep them safe and shield them from danger. So this was Mitchell saying like, maybe he was also a little surprised that no one had recognized Elizabeth. And then when they had this first trial run, he was like, oh, God must be veiling the people's eyes. And that's why they didn't see you.

• 17:05Derrick Levasseur?

  Question real quick. As you're putting all this out there, and you're obviously just relaying to us what Mitchell was saying at the time. What's your analysis on that? Do you believe when he goes into town, and nobody recognizes Elizabeth, that he actually takes it as a sign that God's saying, hey, you have my permission to do so. This is what I want. This is okay. Or do you think that's Brian David Mitchell saying, I want to go out more. I want to drink more. I don't trust Wanda coming down here alone. So you know what? We're all going to do it together because this is fun. This is what I enjoy doing. And I'm getting tired of doing what I'm doing with just Wanda and hanging out with Elizabeth.

• 17:49Derrick Levasseur?

  God wants this, air quotes, God wants this. Do you think he believes that bullshit? Or is he just putting it in that light so that maybe Wanda and Elizabeth believe it?

• 17:58Stephanie Harlowe?

  I think Wanda believed what he was saying, that he was the prophet and all of that. I don't think Brian David Mitchell believed it for a second. I think it's exactly what you said. He wanted to go into the city and drink and have debauchery, and he had been doing it by himself. But now having Elizabeth there was fun for him because he could steal more of her innocence. He could corrupt her further with the alcohol and the house parties. And, you know, he would say things to her like, oh, don't worry, I won't let them pass you around. You're mine. You know, he would say things like that to her when they'd be in groups of people like at these house parties because they went to a few of them. And he, yeah, I think it was just a way to corrupt her further. Like he'd done all the corruption he could at that camp.

• 18:41Stephanie Harlowe?

  So now let's bring her into the world and show her how horrible it is. Like I've been telling her, expose her to all these horrible elements of it. So she can see that the world is bad and sinful. And I'm showing her the world is sinful. But in that way, it was because he wanted to just corrupt her. This 14-year-old girl who had never tasted alcohol, had never seen the things that she was seeing at the parties, like the kissing and the sex and stuff. He wanted to just corrupt her further. I don't think he ever believed that. And this is going to be a point of contention. And we'll talk about it a little bit at the end of this video after he gets arrested. Because of course, the prosecution's going to bring in a mental health expert. And the defense is going to bring in a mental health expert. And the defense's mental health expert is going to be like, no, he really is like,

• 19:24Stephanie Harlowe?

  he has religious delusions and he's crazy. And the prosecution's going to be like, no, he uses religion as a way to do what he wants.

• 19:32Derrick Levasseur?

  To justify his actions.

• 19:33Stephanie Harlowe?

  Elizabeth didn't believe that. He actually felt that way, no.

• 19:36Derrick Levasseur?

  And I truly, I mean, I think what you just laid out is there's probably truth to that. But I also think there's a part where Wanda started to voice her discontent with having to stay back at the camp. And he realized that the only way for him to continue to go out. Was going to be to take Wanda with him and Wanda could only go out if Elizabeth was with them. They couldn't leave Elizabeth alone at the camp. She could escape. So he was like, oh, I think it's okay for us all to hang out now because there's no way you're going out without me. And there's no way I'm staying back at the camp with Elizabeth. So you know what? God has let me know we're safe to all go out. We can all go out. No problems. We're good to go.

• 20:15Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, Wanda was like his babysitter, you know?

• 20:16Derrick Levasseur?

  That's what I'm saying, right? Exactly. Like a babysitter where he's like, I'm sure as hell not watching the kid.

• 20:22Stephanie Harlowe?

  Or even the other parent, right? Yeah, with the other parent when like one of the parents, like usually, usually the husband is like, I'm going out with the boys this weekend. I'm going out with the boys. And finally, the wife's like, why do you go out with the boys every weekend? And I'm here with our kids that we both had every single weekend. Like, I want to have fun.

• 20:36Derrick Levasseur?

  Right.

• 20:37Stephanie Harlowe?

  And a normal person would be like, oh, we'll get another babysitter and we'll both go out. But they can't get another babysitter. So they're like, well, we'll bring the kid with us.

• 20:44Derrick Levasseur?

  Exactly. And then just the story you described to us where they kind of went out because Wanda was saying, I'm unhappy with having to always stay behind.

• 20:51Stephanie Harlowe?

  And Wanda knew he was out there drinking and having fun and not, you know, prop, like preaching to the people and spreading the word of God. Yeah.

• 20:58Derrick Levasseur?

  And so even though they all went out and he quote unquote, did it for Wanda, who was the one who was drunk on the ground? And who had to be the responsible one in that moment? I say responsible again in air quotes as well because she's a scumbag as well. Let's make no mistake about it. She's not a victim here. She knew what she was doing.

• 21:14Stephanie Harlowe?

  I think everything Wanda did was to reinforce the world that she had created. She, there was a time where she definitely believed he was holy and was getting visions. Probably by now she realizes now he's a scumbag. However, she's got to be in denial. Because everything, every place they went at that point, her entire life was based on him being an actual prophet. She completely isolated herself from her family and her own children. She gave away everything she owned. She stopped going to church and playing her piano, which was the most precious, passionate thing that she had. And now she lives in the woods with her husband and a little girl that they kidnapped. So in order for her to continue justifying that and not have an absolute mental breakdown,

• 21:57Stephanie Harlowe?

  she had to at some point and in some level believe that he still was a prophet. So that's why she's urging him like, you're not acting like a prophet right now. You're not acting the right way. So she's trying to make him behave in the way that she thinks he should because that's the reinforcement of, well, I did all of this for him because of what he said. And now I'm seeing the truth, but I can't see the truth because then that's going to make everything that I've done up to this point a lie and I can't accept that.

• 22:22Derrick Levasseur?

  Well, she could have believed you with Santa Claus. I don't care. I, based on what you described to us last episode.

• 22:28Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah.

• 22:28Derrick Levasseur?

  She can take a long walk off a short cliff.

• 22:30Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, that woman's not right. No.

• 22:31Derrick Levasseur?

  I would be perfectly fine with that.

• 22:34Stephanie Harlowe?

  All right, let's take a quick break. We'll be right back.

• 22:40Stephanie Harlowe?

  Okay, we're back. So Elizabeth's not chained up anymore at the camp, but of course Brian David Mitchell made it clear to her that there were rules. And if she did anything, if she broke the rules at all, he would kill her and her entire family. Right? That was always the threat. The rape, what he was doing to her on a regular daily basis, that was no longer even a threat because it was just going to happen no matter what. But you behave yourself, do what I want, don't break the rules, your family will stay safe. And Elizabeth already knew, he can get into my house, you know? He got into my house to get me. He can go back. He's hiking down to the city every day. He can go back, wait till I fall asleep and I go back and kill my whole family in their beds while they sleep.

• 23:22Derrick Levasseur?

  Reasonable concern.

• 23:23Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yes. So from then on, the trio made regular trips to Salt Lake City, sometimes even every day, sometimes every few days, they would steal food and alcohol, they would drink, they would attend random parties. She said sometimes Mitchell would panhandle and get some money. And when it wasn't all spent on alcohol or drugs, he would bring them out to eat. This happened a handful of times. And I think a lot of people don't understand how wild this is. A whole nation is searching for a missing 14-year-old girl. Elizabeth Smart's story was huge. It was everywhere, all over the country. And her faces on the television, her name is everywhere. There's posters of her specifically all over Salt Lake City. And she's walking around downtown repeatedly with only a veil covering part of her face.

• 24:07Stephanie Harlowe?

  It feels unbelievable because it violates our instinct about how the world should work. But like you said, most people don't move through public spaces actively comparing strangers to missing persons posters. In Elizabeth's case, she was veiled, she was dressed in robes, she appeared to be voluntarily walking with two adults, and there was no visible struggle. To the world, Elizabeth Smart was a cute blonde girl from an upscale Salt Lake City neighborhood. She wasn't a veiled religious fanatic walking barefoot with street preachers. People would look at them and see a fringe religious family. They saw a trio of individuals they did not want to engage with. They didn't want to be asked for money or preached at, so they avoided even making eye contact with Elizabeth and her captors.

• 24:50Stephanie Harlowe?

  Now get this, Elizabeth, Wanda, and Mitchell were even approached by a homicide detective at the public library. And this guy walked in and he asked Elizabeth to lift her veil so that he could see her face. And this is supported by police reports, I looked it up. It happened in August or September, just a few months after Elizabeth was taken. The detective said he'd gotten a call from an FBI agent with information that someone had seen a girl that they thought might be Elizabeth Smart, but her clothing was covering everything but her eyes. So the detective goes to the library. He said he entered, he observed two women sitting at a table, and he sat next to the younger woman, who he determined to be about 18 years old. He told the women that he was investigating an abduction, but neither of them would speak

• 25:35Stephanie Harlowe?

  to him. In the police report, this detective writes, quote, "I remember thinking that the women might not speak English," end quote. Even though Elizabeth's eyes are blue and she's clearly, you know, he's like, they might not speak English, specifically because of how they were dressed. And remember, this is very, just a few years after 9/11. So when, when people would see others dressed like this, what are they gonna think? They're gonna think that this is some Middle Eastern religious group, or somebody who practices a Middle Eastern religious sort of, um, policy of covering a woman's face in public, right?

• 26:09Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, obviously not common, especially for, um, I guess the Mormon community, right? That's prevalent out there. So this is something that's an outlier, and they're assuming, hey... Even though it's not what I'm used to, this must be their thing.

• 26:22Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, exactly, exactly. And the detective even said the older woman motioned for a man who was also in the library to come over. And the detective said this man was thin, in his 40s, with a full beard. He didn't look anything like the description of the man who had taken Elizabeth Smart. And the report goes on to state, quote, "He told me his name. It was a long Middle Eastern name. He motioned to the females and said they were his wife and a relative. I don't remember what relation. I questioned the man about the younger female. I can't remember whether he said that she was 17, 18, or 19 years old, but it confirmed my initial estimation that the female was too old to be Elizabeth Smart. I told him that I needed to look at her face. I wanted to see his reaction. He said that it was a strong religious edict that females could never show their faces

• 27:07Stephanie Harlowe?

  in public under any circumstances. I pushed him on the issue, but he didn't get defensive at all. He just reiterated his religious objection." End quote. The detective said he didn't push the issue because the girl in the library looked older than Elizabeth. And he said the person who had called in the complaint didn't have any other evidence for calling in the complaint besides the fact that the girl's eyes looked like Elizabeth Smart's eyes. And the detective said he made significant eye contact with the girl, and he couldn't make the same connection. He didn't think that her eyes looked like Elizabeth Smart's eyes. And this detective also said that he didn't see any signs of nervousness in the girl. He could see that she was clearly not under any distress. And he wrote in the report, quote, "The younger female was right next to me.

• 27:52Stephanie Harlowe?

  At one point, I was even positioned between her and the two older persons. At any time, she could have simply taken my arm, and she would have been entirely protected from the other two." End quote. So first of all, I don't know how you could look into Elizabeth's eyes and not think that they were similar to her actual eyes. You know, like, I don't know how he could say that. I also don't know why, if you thought that the girl was, if you know Elizabeth Smart's kidnapped, and this guy could be her abductor, why he would tell you that she was 14 years old? You know, he would obviously lie about her age, but the detective's, like this guy said, she was like 17, 18, or 19, which confirmed what I already thought. So, obviously, I wasn't suspicious. Of course, most of us would also ask the same question. Why didn't Elizabeth just grab the detective's arm?

• 28:37Stephanie Harlowe?

  Why didn't she rip off her veil and yell, "It's me, I'm Elizabeth Smart"? Well, by that point, Elizabeth had been conditioned through terror. She had been repeatedly raped. She had heard constant threats that her family would be killed. She'd been isolated in the mountains. When someone's terrorized like this consistently, the brain adapts and it stops asking, can I escape? And it starts asking, how do I survive this next minute? So in situations like this, survival becomes compliance. It really does. We often hear about fight or flight, but there's a third response called freeze. So when a predator is close and danger is high, freeze can be the safest survival strategy. And that's where Elizabeth was at, freeze. She may have felt there was a chance that the detective wouldn't even believe her

• 29:21Stephanie Harlowe?

  or that Mitchell could have smoothly talked his way out of it and convinced the detective that she was lying. And then she would have been left with Mitchell and Wanda and retaliation would have been immediate, right? And at that point, Elizabeth probably didn't have the greatest trust in men, adult men, to do the right thing or to protect her. And she really couldn't take her chances. And I think that, you know, if we are able to talk to Elizabeth, I want her to kind of explain this because so many people have asked, she was right there. There was a detective. She could have gotten help. And the detective's even saying, you know, she could have just grabbed my arm and I would have immediately helped her. Would you have though? Because you were believing everything this dude was saying. So if she was like, it's me, Elizabeth Smart.

• 30:05Stephanie Harlowe?

  And the guy was like, this is my daughter. She's lying. You know, you can't take her because of our religious beliefs. The guy might have been like, all right, give me your address and let me look into this and then I'll come back later. And then Elizabeth would have been left with her captors. We hope that wouldn't happen and the likelihood is it probably wouldn't have. But still, Elizabeth thinking in her head, I might not be saved at this moment. They might have to do some legal stuff or some police stuff and check into it. They can't just take somebody from their parents. So especially if the people are claiming, you know, religious exemptions and things. Because what kind of person says, hey, I'm a police officer. I need to, you to lower your veil so I can see your face. And when someone's like, oh no, she can't because of her religion, the detective's like,

• 30:49Stephanie Harlowe?

  okay, even though I'm looking for a missing girl.

• 30:52Derrick Levasseur?

  I acknowledge that I'm about to play Monday morning quarterback a little bit here. But I'm still gonna do it. This is from the detective's own mouth, so we have to take him at what he said here. And I just don't get it. You asked basically twice that you, you know, to see your face. And from what you're describing, there wasn't a ton of objection put up, other than it's a religious etiquette. Right? So why not just insist? I'd like to think in that moment, based on why I'm there, I'm gonna dot my i's and cross my t's. I got the girl sitting right in front of me. You know how I can confirm? That that's not Elizabeth Smart, looking at her face? I can't confirm it by just her eyes. I can assume, I can speculate.

• 31:36Derrick Levasseur?

  And I'm not even saying that he didn't do what he said he did, where he looked at her eyes. And for whatever reason, based on the photos that he had previously seen of Elizabeth, he didn't think they matched. No problem with that. But you know how you double check your work? You have her pull down their veil. A, I understand your religion. I'm not trying to be disrespectful. See, we're actually here looking for a young girl who was kidnapped. And we think that she may still be around and we received a report that you guys may know something about it. So just because my bosses will get mad at me if I don't, I'm gonna have to insist that she takes down her veil. And at that point, if they still refuse, then at minimum, I'm gonna bring supervisors in.

• 32:18Derrick Levasseur?

  I'm gonna bring other people in, somebody higher up to say, hey, here's the situation. I don't think this is Elizabeth. However, the fact that he's so insistent on me not seeing her face, it's raising some concern for me. I understand that there's a religious side to this and that most of the time their faces need to be covered. But I'm asking them for a very specific reason. And even with their religious beliefs, they should understand where I'm coming from. That obviously law, right and wrong, supersedes your religious beliefs, as long as we're not impeding on it in a private area. You're out in a public space. We're looking for a missing girl. I need to see her face and then let my boss make that decision, but maybe the boss also comes and says, hey, I don't know what you're seeing, Derek, but those eyes look pretty similar to me.

• 33:03Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah.

• 33:04Derrick Levasseur?

  The veil's coming off.

• 33:05Stephanie Harlowe?

  They're the same eyes. Yeah.

• 33:06Derrick Levasseur?

  You get what I'm saying? Right? Like let a second opinion come in and just confirm what you're, what you're seeing, what you're believing and what you think your next approach should be. Again, I know I'm Monday morning quarterback in here, but I think just taking someone at their word when, as you pointed out, if this is in fact who I'm looking for, the perpetrator's not going to be honest with me. They're not going to tell me that they, they can take the veil down. They're not going to tell me her accurate age. They're going to make up some ridiculous story. That's the whole point.

• 33:33Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah. Hello.

• 33:34Derrick Levasseur?

  They're not going to be, you have to assume that if this is the person, if they have anything to do with Elizabeth, they're going to lie to me.

• 33:41Stephanie Harlowe?

  Mm hmm.

• 33:42Derrick Levasseur?

  And, and I feel like there was a benefit of the doubt given here where I'm hoping in hindsight, this investigator was really regretful about that decision. I'm sure I have to imagine that he was.

• 33:53Stephanie Harlowe?

  So, or even, okay, you can't remove her veil in public. Let's go to the police station. We'll bring in a female detective.

• 33:59Derrick Levasseur?

  Yes.

• 34:00Stephanie Harlowe?

  To, to do that. That way you're, everyone's comfortable. No man is seeing her face. We're just got to check something.

• 34:05Derrick Levasseur?

  Even a better idea. Let me ask you, sir, in what environment are women allowed to take off the veil? Well, we'd have to be under our own roof. Okay. No problem. Where do you live? Right? See what I just did there? Where do you live? I'll take a ride with you, but at minimum now I'm starting to get information.

• 34:23Stephanie Harlowe?

  Because no man but her husband can see her face.

• 34:26Derrick Levasseur?

  Oh, well, unfortunately.

• 34:28Stephanie Harlowe?

  So no man can. Okay. We'll bring a female detective in. We'll bring them in a, in a completely sealed room where no one can see her and we'll have her check. I can't, I can't let this go.

• 34:36Derrick Levasseur?

  We're here to accommodate you.

• 34:38Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah.

• 34:38Derrick Levasseur?

  Where do you live? We'll have a female detective respond here. Now we'll head back to your house. We can do it in the privacy of your own home with a female detective.

• 34:46Stephanie Harlowe?

  Help me help you.

• 34:47Derrick Levasseur?

  Help me help you. But to just say, eh, all right. No problem. Feels like a little bit of laziness to me.

• 34:54Stephanie Harlowe?

  Well, once again, do you think there's a little bit of that cognitive bias coming in where they already thought it was Reese?

• 35:00Derrick Levasseur?

  I do.

• 35:00Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah.

• 35:01Derrick Levasseur?

  I do.

• 35:01Stephanie Harlowe?

  Well, yeah, it's probably not Elizabeth because it was Reese and Reese said.

• 35:06Derrick Levasseur?

  So if this guy's here with this girl, it can't be Elizabeth. But I mean, even that, if Reese was responsible, but somehow, I mean, I guess at that point, they thought he had killed Elizabeth. But

• 35:17Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah.

• 35:18Derrick Levasseur?

  If Reese was the kidnapper, but had given her off to someone else, this little girl that's sitting in front of you could still be Elizabeth. You still hadn't found Elizabeth at that point. So she could be out there somewhere. So I, again, I feel like there was a little bit of laziness, but I also think that, that, that conscious bias where you're already thinking you've solved this case. Reese kidnapped Elizabeth, more than likely killed her, hit her somewhere in the mountains. This is a, this is a nothing burger that we're looking into here. I'm dotting my i's, I'm crossing my t's, but this is just more of a formality to say I did it.

• 35:49Stephanie Harlowe?

  And I'm not going to risk having everyone mad at me because I dragged this girl in and insisted. Yeah.

• 35:54Derrick Levasseur?

  Yep. Violated their religion.

• 35:56Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yep, exactly.

• 35:57Derrick Levasseur?

  You know, boss is going to be mad at me. I'm sure there's a lot of that going on.

• 36:00Stephanie Harlowe?

  It's really bad, but of course, this close call, it really just bolstered Mitchell more. He took this encounter as proof that he was doing the right thing and that the Lord was protecting him. On the way back up to their mountain camp, Mitchell laughed and just made a whole big joke out of it. He said the Lord had blinded the detective's eyes. All it took was a thin veil to hide his Esther. He told Elizabeth, quote, "I am so smart. I am so clever. I told the officer that your husband is the only man who will ever see your face, but the funny thing is it was your husband who told him that. I stood face to face with a homicide detective. He is trained to look for signs of lying and deception, yet he believed everything I told him.

• 36:40Stephanie Harlowe?

  He looked into my eyes and I convinced him that you were not who they were looking for. I convinced him of that while you were sitting there. God has provided another miracle. And why did he do that? Because no one else will ever see my Esther's face until the Lord has called Hebsa and my seven wives to testify unto the wicked world." End quote.

• 36:57Derrick Levasseur?

  I gotta tell you what, when, when the detective saw this statement, I'm sure he wanted to put his head through a wall. Cause that is embarrassing.

• 37:06Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah. I mean, like, yeah, you, a homicide detective is typically trained to look for signs of deception and lying, but apparently this guy missed those days in training.

• 37:16Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, no, this is bad.

• 37:17Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah.

• 37:17Derrick Levasseur?

  This is bad. This is one where you go, all right, you know what, chief, here's my gun and badge.

• 37:22Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah.

• 37:22Derrick Levasseur?

  I'm gonna go.

• 37:23Stephanie Harlowe?

  I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna do this for you.

• 37:25Derrick Levasseur?

  I got you. Here you go.

• 37:27Stephanie Harlowe?

  Now, after this, Mitchell did not let Elizabeth go down into the city and she and Wanda were made to sit at camp while he took his consistent journeys for food and alcohol. And Elizabeth said she was actually relieved to not be with Mitchell as much for obvious reasons. She was like, this dude's really annoying, man. When I'm with him, it's just constant bolstering and talking and ranting and raving and just like complete, he's just mean all the time, you know? And it was nice to not have to be with him all day. But she also wanted to make it clear that Wanda Barzy herself was no picnic. She was a monster. In her book, Elizabeth said, quote, "If he was the devil, then she was his sneering sidekick," end quote. So we're gonna take a quick break and we'll be right back.

• 38:15Stephanie Harlowe?

  Now, as the weather turned cold, Brian David Mitchell realized that they could not live in the wilderness through the winter. So a decision was made to relocate to somewhere warmer. They took a bus to California. Now, while Elizabeth was states away, her little sister, Mary Catherine, had a sudden revelation in October. The Smart family contacted the police on October 13th to tell them that Mary Catherine had remembered the man who had taken Elizabeth, and she remembered that this man's name was Emmanuel. According to Mary Catherine, she'd been in her room flipping through the pages of the Guinness Book of World Records, and suddenly the name Emmanuel popped into her head. According to Ed Smart, the police did not initially take Mary Catherine's statement very seriously. They still thought that Richard Reesey was the kidnapper.

• 38:58Stephanie Harlowe?

  The police did some digging, and they found that a bearded man who wore white robes was often seen panhandling at Temple Square, and the LDS Security Center had a few photos of him. And the Smart family looked at the photos, but they didn't recognize the man, who was Brian David Mitchell. They didn't recognize him. He didn't look anything like the clean-shaven, well-kept man they had hired to do some work on their house. Now, the police were very much like, we'll look into this, but it's probably nothing. So Ed Smart actually had a forensic sketch artist brought in to work with the family. Ed Smart did this, not the police. And this sketch artist sat down with Ed and Lois and the older boys, but none of

• 39:43Stephanie Harlowe?

  the sketches that they came up with looked like... The same, basically. So they all looked like different people. And obviously, none of them are bearded and things because that's not how Mitchell looked when he was with the Smart family at their house. Now, eventually, law enforcement did come up with a composite sketch and they began circulating that through the city's homeless shelters. But they made the decision to not go public with the information about Emmanuel in October. Or November, as Elizabeth's 15th birthday and Thanksgiving passed. They didn't release it in December, as everyone prepared to celebrate a Christmas without Elizabeth. They said they felt like releasing another photo might confuse the public.

• 40:26Stephanie Harlowe?

  Which is ridiculous, because at this point, Richard Reesey is dead. He's been dead since August. And they had released his photo and they'd been saying it was him. And now, months later even, they're like, you know, would releasing another photo be confusing to the public? What? And if they released that photo, and if they released an Amy Manuel, all the people in downtown Salt Lake City who had to encounter this crazy person would have called and been like, yeah, we know this guy.

• 40:54Derrick Levasseur?

  Yep.

• 40:54Stephanie Harlowe?

  But they didn't do that. Now, on December 23rd, John Walsh, host of America's Most Wanted, was interviewed by Larry King on Larry King Live.

• 41:03Speaker 02

  And my dad was very close with John Walsh from America's Most Wanted back then. And he had called up John and said, you know, my Mary Catherine thinks it's this man. We've gone down to the police department. We've had this sketch made up, but the police don't think it's him. And John was just like, you just have to do everything that you possibly can. If you think there's a chance it's someone else, like, we've got to go after it. And it ended up actually being John Walsh going on Larry King Live and releasing that sketch that really got the got my captor's face out there. And had that not happened. I think that my abduction very well could have continued.

• 41:42Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, right from her mouth, right there. I also have a question for you and forgive me because we're four parts in and I have my notes, but I don't write every single detail down because I'm trying to listen to you. When the kidnapping initially happened, we know that Reese had been visiting the property and that's why he became a suspect. He was someone they were looking into. And you had talked about Elizabeth's family bringing Brian Mitchell in as well, you know, trying to help him out as well. And I do wonder at the time, and maybe you mentioned this and it just, I missed it, but was he someone who was investigated thoroughly as much as Reese? Because

• 42:17Stephanie Harlowe?

  No, no, of course not.

• 42:19Derrick Levasseur?

  Okay. And I wanted to make sure of that because just from a, just a practical standpoint, just basic, you know, crime 101. When you have a kidnapping like this, you're always going to look inward, specifically at the family. And then once you vet the family and you realize or you, or you determine that they're not involved, you're going to expand that scope a little bit. And you would start with people who have access to that property, who would know who was living at that property, right? And would have an understanding of how to get in, how to get out without, you know, causing too much of a disturbance. So you would start to look at workers, you know, people who've visited the property for landscaping, HVAC, plumbing, electrical, whatever you might have, right? Employees who may have visited the property, you would develop a list of those individuals.

• 43:01Stephanie Harlowe?

  They did. Remember that Ed gave them a list of people who had worked at the house, but also a list of people who had toured the house because it was for sale at that time. So there's people coming in to look at the house because it was for sale. So he gave them a list and according to the police records, they were going through that list, but when they got to Reese and then

• 43:22Derrick Levasseur?

  They found their guy.

• 43:23Stephanie Harlowe?

  They, and then they realized, oh, the, the family had this issue with him in the Jeep. And then they had the issue where they thought he stole some jewelry and then they ran his background and saw that he had this extensive criminal background. They kind of started focusing their investigative work on him and they stopped really going through that list.

• 43:41Derrick Levasseur?

  Well, and here's the problem, and that's exactly what happened. So I'm not even disputing that, but here, here's the issue, right? Until you find Elizabeth, you don't know that for certain. So they shouldn't have stopped there, but that's exactly what they did. You're right. However, in all of these cases that are, that are unsolved at that point, when we develop a list of persons of interest. You not only have to vet them for the time of the occurrence to determine they had an alibi, but you'll have to look into their history before, during, and after. Very simple what I'm saying there. If you have a list of, I couldn't imagine that list would have been too, too long, right? Twenty, thirty people.

• 44:19Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, it was pretty extensive, actually, because they had a lot of people working at the house.

• 44:23Derrick Levasseur?

  Okay, so let's even say a hundred, I don't know, whatever it might be. You want to start to narrow that list down of people who could actually have been in that area during that time, who maybe you haven't been able to determine a solid alibi, right? So maybe that list gets down to twenty people, right? Once you've determined that, we can't account for these people's whereabouts during that time. You want to look into their previous criminal history? Maybe there's not a lot there, but you know what else you want to do? As the lead investigator on the case, every year or so, you probably want to go back to that persons of interest list and run through it again and see if any of those individuals have gotten into trouble, have done something out of the ordinary, or maybe dropped off the radar, displayed some behavior where now they're trying to disappear.

• 45:05Derrick Levasseur?

  Because if they had done that, they would have been able to follow Brian Mitchell and see his progression and his evolution and see that maybe he wasn't completely on the up and up and maybe not in the right state of mind and maybe be someone who, that when they see him later and he's got this beard and stuff, that is someone they recognize because they had been following him all along and they were familiar with his behavior after the incident. We're not talking five years later here, Stephanie.

• 45:31Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, but remember, he didn't tell the family that his name was Brian David Mitchell. He said his name was Emmanuel.

• 45:37Derrick Levasseur?

  So what you're saying is them telling that, him telling them that his name was Emmanuel, they never tracked, even if they believed he to be, him to be Emmanuel, did they ever track him down and speak to him?

• 45:48Stephanie Harlowe?

  Nope, because they didn't know, they knew his name was, that he had given the Smarts the name Emmanuel and they kind of eventually put two and two together that Emmanuel was this person who was on the road and stuff, but they could not find him.

• 46:00Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, I mean, I would love to, you know, without-

• 46:02Stephanie Harlowe?

  By that point, he's living in the mountains. They don't know that.

• 46:04Derrick Levasseur?

  Without criticizing him too much, because I don't have all the specifics and I'm sure someone could come on here and maybe make me feel better about the situation. But with how many people they had working this case? Someone's job? One investigator's job should have been to track this guy down, no matter how long it took.

• 46:21Stephanie Harlowe?

  When Mary Catherine comes forward and she's like, "It's Emmanuel." She didn't just say, "Oh, it's Emmanuel. That's just a name that popped in my head." She said, "It's Emmanuel, the guy who worked at our house." Yeah, that's the guy who worked in our house.

• 46:31Derrick Levasseur?

  Right.

• 46:32Stephanie Harlowe?

  So now you have this, okay, now he too would have had an understanding of where the Smarts home was. He would have been exposed to the kids. He should have shot up on the suspect list for them.

• 46:42Derrick Levasseur?

  He should have been vetted to the point where they could say, "Hey, by the way, we found that guy Emmanuel who said he worked here. In fact, his name wasn't Emmanuel. It's Brian David Mitchell. And by the way, at that point, you would say, "Okay, why is he lying about his name? Now we really got to look into him."

• 46:54Stephanie Harlowe?

  And why did the Smart family only take the name Emmanuel and not get, you know, an actual name?

• 46:59Derrick Levasseur?

  There should have been more there and it should have been on one of the investigators or a group of investigators to determine who this person was. Track them down and speak with them because obviously they're a person of interest at minimum. They were in the house, they knew the whereabouts. All you have is the name Emmanuel. We need to know more about this person to confirm they weren't in the area at the time of the crime. They didn't do that. So they didn't dot all their i's, they didn't cross all their t's. There was an open-ended question there that would ultimately be answered because of other people's actions, not their own.

• 47:30Stephanie Harlowe?

  Well, all they had was this Emmanuel, right? And then so then they go and they're like, "Okay, Emmanuel is this guy who's always panhandling in this area. Okay, now we know that." And then they were like, "Well, let's circulate the photo through homeless shelters in the area." That's pretty much all they did.

• 47:43Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, that's not enough.

• 47:45Stephanie Harlowe?

  And if they put his, had that name, if they put that name in that picture, any picture, that name in that picture and said, "It's a guy who's known to be panhandling in, you know, Temple Square." Multiple people, people that Brian Mitchell had worked with, people who knew Wanda, the family members of Brian and Wanda, they would have called. And this would have been back in October.

• 48:05Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah. No, I think it's exactly what you described. And even though you don't have an investigative background, I think you nailed this one. I think- There was an initial attempt, but when they got down that list and got to Reese, everyone else kind of melted away.

• 48:21Stephanie Harlowe?

  He just looked too good for it for some reason.

• 48:23Derrick Levasseur?

  That was it. I truly believe that's what happened.

• 48:25Stephanie Harlowe?

  Well, meanwhile, in California, Brian David Mitchell announced to Wanda and Elizabeth that it was time to take another wife. This happened at the end of November and Mitchell said the new wife needed to be young and pure, so he was going to visit all the Mormon churches in Al Kajon until he found her. And Elizabeth was like, why? We're in Lakeville. Why do you have to go all the way out there? And he said, well, I need to go far because, you know, like, we have to figure out where this girl lives so we can take her and then bring her back to this camp. And then if the camp is close to where we take her from, then obviously they're going to find her. So I have to go far. So at that point, Elizabeth and Wanda were both a bit on the worn outside. They were slightly malnourished, to say the least. Mitchell had been going out for longer periods of time where he would get money from

• 49:08Stephanie Harlowe?

  people and then spend it on food for himself and alcohol for himself. Mitchell made Wanda help him hide their camp by covering and surrounding it with branches and brush to get it ready for this new wife. And Mitchell would spend weeks planning because he was to go out and get his next wife on January 4. So once again, he failed at this kidnapping plot. And when he failed, Mitchell returned to the camp and told them that the Lord had communicated it wasn't the right time. He told them he had gone to the house, he'd found no unlocked doors, but he kept trying. And eventually he found a sliding door in the back that was open. But as he stepped in, he heard the sound of a man snoring, a man sleeping in the very room that Mitchell was attempting to enter through. And he told Wanda and Elizabeth that he knew he would never be able to find his new wife and get

• 49:53Stephanie Harlowe?

  past her father. So he knew that God must have another plan for him. And then once again, he ran like hell. And Mitchell told them that this whole plan had failed because Elizabeth and Wanda had been judged by the Lord and they were found to be lacking in their faith. And it wasn't until they made themselves better that the Lord was going to give them the actual opportunity to bring their next wife in. So the following

• 50:16Derrick Levasseur?

  What a loser.

• 50:17Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah.

• 50:18Derrick Levasseur?

  What a loser, man.

• 50:19Stephanie Harlowe?

  So the following February, as Mitchell's face was being plastered all over the news, he and Wanda were having more of their horrible fights and eventually Mitchell stormed off. But instead of coming back later that night or the next day, he was gone for several days. Wanda and Elizabeth were already low on energy from a lack of food and water. They were basically wasting away during this time. Elizabeth said she was having like hallucinations at some point. And she said they just sat there. They didn't even have the energy to talk or move. Seven days later, Mitchell returned and informed them that he'd been arrested because he'd thrown a brick through the window of a church that he intended on sleeping in. He never gave the police his real name when they arrested him or told him who he was. And eventually he was just released from, from jail after telling a judge that, you

• 51:03Stephanie Harlowe?

  know, I was an alcoholic and I've fallen off the wagon after 20 years and I'm really sorry. And the judge was like, okay, you can, you can go. But he, he was arrested and he didn't even give the police his real name, which is crazy to me.

• 51:17Derrick Levasseur?

  They must have not have fingerprinted him either.

• 51:19Stephanie Harlowe?

  I, I guess not.

• 51:20Derrick Levasseur?

  I'm sure it was because of the level of crime, they didn't, they didn't print him.

• 51:24Stephanie Harlowe?

  I mean, he, they were probably like, oh, he's like a homeless guy and

• 51:27Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah.

• 51:27Stephanie Harlowe?

  he doesn't have identification on him. I mean, this is California too. At this time, they were probably dealing with that regularly. So by March, it was decided that Brian Mitchell, Elizabeth and Wanda needed to go back to Salt Lake City. And this was because they just weren't having any luck in California, like their panhandling wasn't doing as well because they're not in Utah where people are like giving, you know, their, their whole religion in Salt Lake City was, you know, help people if you can, but they're in California now and not, no one's really

• 52:00Derrick Levasseur?

  They got a little dose of reality.

• 52:02Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah. They were like, we gotta go back to

• 52:05Derrick Levasseur?

  Not everywhere is Utah.

• 52:06Stephanie Harlowe?

  We gotta go back to the Mormons, man. We can't survive like this. So all it ended up really taking was for that sketch to be released. And then an influx of tips poured into the Salt Lake City Police Department and the FBI. Mitchell's sister Lisa called the police and she was like, hey, that sketch, Emmanuel, looks just like my brother, Brian David Mitchell, who decided he was a prophet and went off to start his own life and his own church with his wife, Wanda. Other similar calls from people who had known Mitchell and Wanda came in by the droves. And by mid February, it was now being reported that this Emmanuel person could be Brian David Mitchell and everything started to add up.

• 52:43Derrick Levasseur?

  Oh, look at that. Look how that happened. It's almost like they they finally figured out who Emmanuel, the guy who was in their home, who only went by her first name, might have something to do with it.

• 52:53Stephanie Harlowe?

  Because only because John Walsh went rogue.

• 52:56Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, shout out.

• 52:56Stephanie Harlowe?

  And released the sketch and the name.

• 52:58Derrick Levasseur?

  By the way, that's the whole connection with America's Most Wanted was us doing America's Most Wanted was Elizabeth being on that show because of her connection to John. And I don't want to get too far ahead here, but that's the connection there where they obviously have a very good relationship now.

• 53:13Stephanie Harlowe?

  They really do, yeah.

• 53:14Derrick Levasseur?

  Because of what transpired.

• 53:16Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, I mean, at that point, John Walsh had really come right from the beginning of Elizabeth going missing. John Walsh, you know, was talking to Ed Smart, talking to the Smart family. He was there for them. He was like, I've been through this. I can help you. He was a great deal of support and.

• 53:29Derrick Levasseur?

  We've been at the award ceremonies, but have you got to meet him yet?

• 53:31Stephanie Harlowe?

  No.

• 53:32Derrick Levasseur?

  I'll tell you what.

• 53:33Stephanie Harlowe?

  I walked past him once.

• 53:34Derrick Levasseur?

  You and I talk off record a lot. You know, we talk every day. We're friends. But he is exactly the guy you see on TV. He's that guy. You know, some people say, hey, don't meet your heroes, you know. He is that guy. He is that passionate about this type of, these types of cases, especially when it involves children. And every conversation I've ever had with him, on camera, off camera, same guy through and through. You can tell as a parent now, I can tell definitely there's a part of him that's just cold and I hate to be like, like this, but almost dead in a way where he lost a part of himself when Adam, when Adam was killed. But he has, he's just driven, right? But like, he's very black and white.

• 54:15Derrick Levasseur?

  You know, he just, it's right and wrong for him. And I'm sure he's a little bit nicer behind closed doors with Callahan. Callahan's a great guy.

• 54:22Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, you introduced me. Yep, you introduced me to Callahan.

• 54:23Derrick Levasseur?

  Callahan's awesome. And.

• 54:25Stephanie Harlowe?

  He had cool shoes on, I remember.

• 54:27Derrick Levasseur?

  Callahan's awesome. And he's a little bit friendlier. And I don't mean John's mean.

• 54:30Stephanie Harlowe?

  Personal, more personable.

• 54:32Derrick Levasseur?

  Personable. Thank you. That's a better word. But Callahan has, you know, been, been sheltered a little bit more by, by John, who took on the burden, who was with the adult at the time. Callahan was only, you know, was little. And, and so, yes, it's just, John and Callahan, that whole family, what they do with Neck Mac and, and America's Most Wanted, truly just great people. And it's unfortunate. fortunate that John got into that situation because of what he went through with his own son. But man, he has saved a lot of lives and he's brought a lot of children.

• 55:02Stephanie Harlowe?

  And he's helped so many families.

• 55:05Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah.

• 55:05Stephanie Harlowe?

  So many. And now Elizabeth takes that torch up, right?

• 55:08Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah.

• 55:08Stephanie Harlowe?

  She does the same thing. Now, when you see a missing person or a missing child specifically, or some sex crime, Elizabeth's there talking to the family. She's helping. She's giving interviews. Yeah.

• 55:18Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, no, they're great. And so if you ever wondered about John Walsh and Callahan Walsh and you know, oh, is it just for TV? Is that the, that you're, what you're looking at is what you get. They are the real deal and they, and they really do care. Every conversation. I actually had dinner with Elizabeth and Callahan, and that's where all they were talking about was neck mech, what they were trying to do in the future.

• 55:38Stephanie Harlowe?

  This is their life's purpose.

• 55:39Derrick Levasseur?

  That's bingo.

• 55:40Stephanie Harlowe?

  It's not just for show.

• 55:42Derrick Levasseur?

  It's definitely not for show, not for ratings, not for money. Don't give a shit about that.

• 55:46Stephanie Harlowe?

  So now everybody's putting everything together, right? Oh, everyone's coming out and they're like, oh, Brian David Mitchell. He's an experienced outdoorsman. Um, him and his wife, Wanda, gave away their belongings and they lived in a tent in the mountains.

• 55:58Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah. You start to follow breadcrumbs. And by the way, Reese might have been similar, right? Where we talked about this, where things might start to line up.

• 56:05Stephanie Harlowe?

  And people were calling about Reese too, being like, that guy's weird. He's got this golf hat. Yeah.

• 56:09Derrick Levasseur?

  To give this a visual perspective, right? You may have two or three people you're looking at. And let's just, let's just pretend there's boxes, right? For all three people, the first five boxes out of 10 may get checked off where they all fit. They all fit the mold, but it's when you get to that sixth and seventh box where maybe it doesn't completely check. Or maybe it doesn't check at all. And again, for the first five, it all lined up. But that's why you get to check off all 10 because two or three people can fit what you're looking for. But then when you really start to dig deep, it may not work out and that can be discouraging. But that's why investigations are really. They're painful. They're painful and they can be demoralizing because you can spend

• 56:53Derrick Levasseur?

  days, weeks, months, years, looking into someone. And at the end of it all, determine that that person's not responsible. The point is not to, to close off those other angles. So when they got Reese for the first five, maybe it was quicker. They still should have looked at the other ones because if they had what you just described with Emmanuel, right? AKA Brian David Mitchell. All these other boxes started to get checked off as well. And if they would have continued on him, all 10 would have gotten checked off and he would have been a much stronger suspect than Reese. But they didn't do that.

• 57:26Stephanie Harlowe?

  Well, I want to be, I want to say something in fairness to the police, which is shocking.

• 57:30Derrick Levasseur?

  Look at us changing roles.

• 57:30Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, it's shocking. What their experience was and what most police experience was with missing children during this time was not, oh, this guy is going to capture this girl, keep her living in the mountains, dress her up in robes and walk around Salt Lake City with her. That was not the, the norm. It was,

• 57:45Derrick Levasseur?

  Right.

• 57:45Stephanie Harlowe?

  this person's going to take this child, do what the intention was to take the child and then kill the child.

• 57:51Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah. Or they're not going to be in their backyard.

• 57:53Stephanie Harlowe?

  Right. And Reese's sort of profile fit better for that.

• 57:57Derrick Levasseur?

  I get it.

• 57:57Stephanie Harlowe?

  This, what happened to Elizabeth Smart is uncommon. This is not usually what happens when children get kidnapped by strangers. We can admit that, right?

• 58:05Derrick Levasseur?

  A hundred percent, which is by the way, part of the reason we're covering the story because again, whether it's just you out there listening or watching, or another investigator, we get a lot of cops and detectives who, who listen to the show. Maybe they're not as familiar with this case. I wasn't, I was familiar with the overall, you know, synopsis of the case, but not the details. This is something you put in your tool bag.

• 58:25Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah. For, for future reference. Yeah.

• 58:28Derrick Levasseur?

  Even though it's not the norm, we now know what happens. And so these are things you got to be looking for in your own cases when you maybe a detective in Central Falls, Rhode Island. Could happen anywhere.

• 58:39Stephanie Harlowe?

  Mm hmm.

• 58:40Derrick Levasseur?

  Someone could listen to this exact story and try to commit the same crime.

• 58:44Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yep.

• 58:44Derrick Levasseur?

  That's why you got to educate yourself.

• 58:46Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah. I mean, they, people have, people have done that as well. Taken girls and, and hidden them and kept them in bunkers and stuff. So we know that's also still possible. It's just not as, uh, likely as common. Yeah.

• 58:57Derrick Levasseur?

  No, but that's why we're building this crime weekly encyclopedia. It's another reason people say to us sometimes where they're like, why are you covering this case? That, you know, has been covered before. You know so well. We're building that crime weekly encyclopedia. We're in, in a, in a perfect world, we're going to cover every case. No matter what case you think of, we're going to have it on our catalog where you can come back and look at it. So it's a reference material. And so. Again, just another example of why we do what we do and why we select the cases we select. And as far as the detectives are concerned, as you mentioned, if we get to talk to Elizabeth, and I will say, I have been talking with her, it looks like it's going to happen. These are one of the questions that I'll have for her, just as far as her perspective and opinion on the investigators that work the case, because she may have a completely different outlook

• 59:42Derrick Levasseur?

  as far as the level they went to, and she may be completely fine with it, who knows? That would be one of the questions I ask for, for sure.

• 59:49Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, and, and at the end of this episode, we're going to ask you guys to give us some

• 59:54Derrick Levasseur?

  Some questions for her.

• 59:55Stephanie Harlowe?

  potential questions you would want us to ask Elizabeth if she comes on.

• 59:57Derrick Levasseur?

  Absolutely.

• 59:58Stephanie Harlowe?

  So, put a pin in that. So, yeah. Now, we're, we're hearing, "Oh, Brian David Mitchell, like him and Wanda were living in a tent in the mountains. Oh, Brian David Mitchell, he was clean caught when he met the Smart family, but since then, he grew a beard and grew his hair long, and everything was falling into place, but the police were still cautious, though, right? Because they already had kind of-

• 1:00:19Derrick Levasseur?

  Well, they already arrested a guy.

• 1:00:19Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, they kind of already put their, uh, their eggs all in one basket. So, they told the public, "Listen, we haven't found Mitchell, and while he's a person of interest, he's not the focus of the kidnapping investigation." Within just a few days after that statement, there was a complete 180. The police released another statement, "Okay, Brian David Mitchell is a manual, and we now believe that he's the one who took Elizabeth Smart."

• 1:00:41Derrick Levasseur?

  I would have loved to have been a fly on that wall.

• 1:00:44Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, well, I mean, it's when he, they started talking to his family, and then, um, the kids of his previous wife, Debbie, came out, and they were like, "He, you know, sexually assaulted us, he's a creep with little girls." Like, it all started coming on, then they were like, "Okay, we, we see what happened here." Now that the picture was everywhere, now that the name was everywhere, people had started to notice, thank God, because as Elizabeth and Brian David Mitchell and Wanda Barzy are hitchhiking from California back to Utah- They end up in Sandy, Utah, where they're going to walk back up into the mountains. And that's when Alvin and Anita Dickerson called the police on March 12th and said they'd seen a man and two women walking on State Street in Sandy, Utah. The man was wearing a hat with flowers around the rim.

• 1:01:27Stephanie Harlowe?

  One of the women had gray hair and the other woman was wearing a veil. A few minutes after the Dickerson's call, the police received another call from Nancy Montoya. She said she was in the Kinko's in Sandy and she also saw three people walking on State Street. She said the man looked like Emmanuel, the person who Nancy and her husband Rudy had seen on America's Most Wanted. So Nancy asked her husband Rudy, "Look outside Rudy, do you think that man looks like Emmanuel?" And Rudy was like, "Yeah, that looks like Emmanuel." So they called the police. Luckily, when the calls came in, Karen Jones was nearby. She was a Sandy police officer and she was able to get to that location within minutes. And when she got there, she pulls up, she turns the sirens on. Karen Jones quickly separated Brian from Wanda and Elizabeth. She asked Brian, "Who are you?"

• 1:02:10Stephanie Harlowe?

  He said, "My name's Peter Marshall and these women, this is my wife Juliette and my daughter Augustine." When he was asked to provide identification, Mitchell told Karen Jones, "We are messengers of God. We are free of all worldly things." End quote. So another officer responded around that time. He went to talk to Elizabeth. He asked Elizabeth who she was. She responded that her name was Evangeline and that she was traveling with her parents. She was wearing a wig and dark sunglasses as well as her veil. So he asked her if she was Elizabeth Smart. She said, "No." They don't believe her. The police don't believe her. So Brian Mitchell was placed under arrest and the police called Ed Smart and asked him to come immediately to the Sandy police station. When Elizabeth was told that her father was on the way, she began crying.

• 1:02:54Stephanie Harlowe?

  She said she was Elizabeth Smart and she finally, you know, she realized, once she knew, "Okay, my father's coming. I don't have to trust these men. I trust my father. My father's coming and now I'm safe." And that's when she finally was like, "Okay, yes, I am Elizabeth Smart." And the whole reason that Elizabeth was in Sandy was because they were hitchhiking back to the mountains from California. They were on their way back home and it was in Sandy, Utah where they were spotted. And I think that's absolutely amazing. They're just walking. They don't know. They don't know what's happening on the news. They don't know that Brian Mitchell's been identified already. They don't know any of this.

• 1:03:26Derrick Levasseur?

  All thanks to our boy John Walsh.

• 1:03:28Stephanie Harlowe?

  Mm-hmm. Yep. Shout out John Walsh. Okay, we're gonna take a quick break and then we'll be right back.

• 1:03:37Stephanie Harlowe?

  Okay, we're back. So on March 18th, 2003, Brian David Mitchell and Wanda Barzee were charged with six felony counts of aggravated kidnapping, aggravated sexual assault, and aggravated burglary. They were both assigned public defenders. So Mitchell was, Brian David Mitchell is going to be interviewed by the police and the FBI several times after his arrest. At this time, he was on no medication. He had not been treated for any psychiatric condition when he was questioned. And you will see throughout the interview, and I can't wait for you to see it, Derek, and see these interrogation tactics and what you think of them. But even when the detectives interviewing Brian Mitchell

• 1:04:16Stephanie Harlowe?

  are hostile, aggressive, demeaning, Brian stays completely calm. He does not lash out. He doesn't become aggravated. They're trying to trigger him. He doesn't allow it to happen. And this is going to come into play because remember, his defense is going to come up with this whole thing, "Oh, he's crazy. He's not in control. He, you know, this, this, and that." This is a man who is completely in control, and this is the best indicator of that.

• 1:04:46Speaker 03

  I came to do the will of the Father. But you're not Jesus Christ. No, I'm not Jesus Christ, but I'm... You are a prophet. I'm His servant. You're His servant. I'm the Lord's servant. And He has called me, and He's called me out of the world. And so I have no part in the world. So I have no part in those questions or answers that you're seeking about anything other than who I am now. Okay. This girl that was with you, what did you call her? Her name is Sheer Jashia. How do you spell it? S-H-E-R-E-A-R. How old is she? She, her, once again, that, that question... Is very relevant. How old is she? She's 18.

• 1:05:32Speaker 03

  What would we do if she's 18? Because the Lord has said she is, she is 18. The Lord God Almighty told you that she's 18 years old? That's a yes or no question? Yes, yes. Okay. Did he marry her? But you say, you say 18. You say 18. Brian, just listen. Not that's not who I am. Emmanuel, listen, did he marry her?

• 1:05:56Speaker 03

  I didn't marry her, but she sealed to me as my wife.

• 1:05:59Speaker 04

  She sealed to you as your wife? Have you had sexual intercourse with her?

• 1:06:03Speaker 03

  Those are very personal, private questions.

• 1:06:05Speaker 04

  That's a very relevant question. Did you have sex with her, yes or no?

• 1:06:08Speaker 03

  You were at, you, you, you told me I could have an attorney present. I'm my, I am my attorney.

• 1:06:14Speaker 04

  You were your own attorney?

• 1:06:16Speaker 03

  Presently, I am.

• 1:06:17Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 1:06:18Speaker 03

  Presently, I am. I'm defending myself, am I not?

• 1:06:22Speaker 04

  Yes, you are.

• 1:06:22Speaker 03

  These words could be used against me, correct?

• 1:06:24Speaker 04

  That's correct, they can be.

• 1:06:25Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 1:06:27Speaker 04

  Well, let's just cover the basics, okay?

• 1:06:29Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 1:06:30Speaker 04

  Did you take Shurah Jeshu?

• 1:06:34Speaker 03

  Shurah Jeshu? Esther, Isaiah is her name. Shurah Jeshu? Esther, Isaiah.

• 1:06:39Speaker 04

  I'm sorry, man, I just can't pronounce that. I'm just gonna call her Elizabeth, okay?

• 1:06:43Speaker 03

  Shurah Jeshu? Esther? Isaiah, Esther?

• 1:06:47Speaker 04

  Esther, I'll call her Esther.

• 1:06:48Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 1:06:48Speaker 04

  Did you take Esther out of her house?

• 1:06:50Speaker 03

  The Lord God delivered her to us.

• 1:06:53Speaker 04

  And how did the Lord God deliver her to you? Was that on the street somewhere? Was it in the shelter?

• 1:06:59Speaker 05

  Did the Lord God sneak into her bedroom and take her out of her room in the middle of the night and deliver her to you?

• 1:07:05Speaker 05

  I mean, this is, this is, I understand, you know, you're trying to... This isn't making much sense to us.

• 1:07:12Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:07:12Speaker 05

  So, what I was hoping is maybe you could explain it in a way that we can understand it.

• 1:07:16Speaker 03

  Well, you're, you're, you're, you want answers that you can use against me. You know you do.

• 1:07:20Speaker 05

  Well, not only that, but understand this.

• 1:07:23Speaker 03

  And you say you want to know the truth.

• 1:07:25Speaker 05

  Sure we do.

• 1:07:26Speaker 03

  But the truth will set us, set you free. It will set all men free. And...

• 1:07:31Speaker 04

  Well, let's get back to Elizabeth the smart.

• 1:07:33Speaker 05

  Yeah, because this is, this is, this sounds more like a political debate than...

• 1:07:36Speaker 03

  Not politically. There's nothing politi, there's nothing unpolitical.

• 1:07:40Speaker 05

  Well, let me, let me just, let me just put this right on the table.

• 1:07:42Speaker 03

  There's nothing, nothing, there's nothing unpolitical.

• 1:07:44Speaker 05

  So far, I have no idea what you're talking about. You're, I, maybe, maybe it's because I grew up outside of Utah and I'm not familiar with all this, you know, religious stuff, but you need to bring it down to a level so that I can understand it. Because this stuff you're talking about, you know, and how it relates to Elizabeth and how she ended up being taken from her... Let me just say this, for the past nine months, that family has gone through... Hell.

• 1:08:10Speaker 03

  I understand.

• 1:08:11Speaker 05

  You do understand that?

• 1:08:13Speaker 03

  I understand that very much.

• 1:08:14Speaker 05

  I mean, their whole family has been torn apart. And I can tell you that since the day that she's been taken, both Cord, myself, and hundreds of other law enforcement officers have been spending countless hours upon hours trying to find this girl. And the family, I mean, they wake up during the middle of the night and their kid is gone. And they have no, they have no idea where she went. They think she's dead. We expected to find a corpse. And so, your explanation so far as, as far as God delivering, God delivering her to you makes no sense to me because it doesn't match up with the times.

• 1:08:52Speaker 03

  If she, if she, how, how did, how was when the children of Israel were led into the promised land?

• 1:08:59Speaker 05

  Let's keep it out of the Bible, let's keep it to the present time.

• 1:09:01Speaker 03

  There's no other way I can explain it. Sorry.

• 1:09:03Speaker 05

  All right, well, if you, don't mind me if when you start to explain it, it makes no sense to me if I just cut into it.

• 1:09:08Speaker 03

  Okay, well, let me say, you just shared with me how her family suffered.

• 1:09:14Speaker 03

  But when God's children become idolatrous and wicked, they suffer many things. The whole history of mankind, the scriptures, is where it's suffering. They've become idolatrous and wicked, they've been taken into captivity, they've been torn apart, they've been slain. Many things have happened to the Lord's children when they've been disobedient.

• 1:09:32Speaker 05

  Time to bring it in for a landing because you're talking Bible stuff again.

• 1:09:34Speaker 03

  Here it comes in for a landing. When the children of Israel went into the promised land, they destroyed many, many peoples. And in many cases, they took the daughters captive and just destroyed all the men, women, and children, except the daughters, who were virgins. All the, all the boys were destroyed, all the men and women were destroyed. And the only thing they took captive were the virgin daughters. That was the children of Israel when they went into the promised land. In some cities, the Lord commanded this, it's a plague there.

• 1:09:59Speaker 05

  So where was your promised land located?

• 1:10:01Speaker 03

  Well, the whole earth is the promised land for all of us.

• 1:10:04Speaker 05

  What for you?

• 1:10:05Speaker 03

  When the Lord, when the Lord comes in great power and mighty glory, in mind, he's going to destroy all the wicked. And lift up the poor, the sick, and the afflicted, the humble followers of Christ. Lift them up, and they will inherit the earth. This is according to the gospel and the scriptures and the teachings of the gospel.

• 1:10:22Speaker 04

  Are you saying that because you are a prophet of God?

• 1:10:25Speaker 03

  I never said I was a prophet of God.

• 1:10:27Speaker 04

  I believe you do.

• 1:10:28Speaker 03

  No, I didn't. I said I'm a servant of the Lord.

• 1:10:30Speaker 04

  Because you were-

• 1:10:31Speaker 03

  If the Lord-

• 1:10:32Speaker 04

  Isaiah, you're talking all over me here, sir. Please, relax.

• 1:10:36Speaker 03

  Take me to-

• 1:10:37Speaker 04

  Manu, relax. Are you saying because you're a servant of the Lord, that God provided you with a virgin to be your bride? Is that what you're saying?

• 1:10:47Speaker 04

  That's a yes or no question, Manu.

• 1:10:50Speaker 03

  I didn't say that. You can draw your own conclusions. You said, you were talking about the Sarah how her family suffered, and you couldn't understand. You couldn't understand why their family would have to suffer.

• 1:10:59Speaker 04

  Manu.

• 1:11:00Speaker 03

  I'm saying that the Lord's children, they're not suffering.

• 1:11:04Speaker 05

  So can we draw that conclusion that because you're a servant of the Lord, God owed you a virgin for a while?

• 1:11:10Speaker 03

  Absolutely not. You're making your own conclusions.

• 1:11:11Speaker 05

  I'm asking you a thousand-

• 1:11:13Speaker 03

  He asked, why did her family have to suffer? And I'm telling you-

• 1:11:16Speaker 04

  We're beyond that.

• 1:11:18Speaker 03

  I have, I have great compassion and love for them.

• 1:11:21Speaker 04

  Well?

• 1:11:21Speaker 03

  Because they are the parents of my-

• 1:11:24Speaker 04

  Oh, horseshit. You took their daughter out of their house at knife point, and now you're not even denying it.

• 1:11:29Speaker 03

  You're saying I did that?

• 1:11:30Speaker 04

  I'm saying you did it.

• 1:11:31Speaker 03

  You're saying I did that?

• 1:11:32Speaker 04

  I'm saying that you did it.

• 1:11:33Speaker 03

  I'm telling you that the Lord God Almighty delivered her to us.

• 1:11:37Speaker 04

  And I'm asking how, because I don't believe you. I think you're lying your ass off. Maybe if you have your-

• 1:11:43Speaker 03

  I've never said, I've never lied about anything. All I've told you-

• 1:11:45Speaker 04

  Then you tell me the truth. How did Elizabeth wind up with you? Tell me the truth, right now.

• 1:11:50Speaker 03

  By the power of God, she was delivered to us.

• 1:11:52Speaker 04

  And how did God deliver her to you?

• 1:11:55Speaker 03

  By the power of God.

• 1:11:56Speaker 05

  How did God get you into this house? How did God get you into the house?

• 1:12:00Speaker 03

  By the power of God, she was delivered to us.

• 1:12:02Speaker 04

  He levitated you into the house? You know- You're not.

• 1:12:08Speaker 05

  All right, this isn't working.

• 1:12:09Speaker 03

  Emmanuel.

• 1:12:10Speaker 05

  Well, I'll start calling you Emmanuel when you start giving me answers to questions that I think are reasonable. Because right now, this God delivering her from the house is ridiculous.

• 1:12:18Speaker 03

  I've practically given you the honest truth.

• 1:12:20Speaker 05

  No, you haven't.

• 1:12:21Speaker 03

  Yes, I have, the absolute.

• 1:12:22Speaker 05

  The honest truth would be you telling me how you got her into your control and where you kept her for the past nine months. And what you've done with her for the past five months. And not telling me stories about people going into the promised land and killing everybody except for the virgin daughters. I don't want to hear that shit.

• 1:12:37Speaker 04

  You know?

• 1:12:37Speaker 05

  I'll say that for Sunday when I go to church.

• 1:12:39Speaker 04

  You know what? You're ashamed. Down deep inside, you know what you did was wrong and you're ashamed. And that's why you won't tell us.

• 1:12:45Speaker 05

  If you have any.

• 1:12:45Speaker 04

  That's why you... Prophets do not hide what their actions. They stand up for them and they answer for them. If God told you to do this, then you'd better tell us.

• 1:12:53Speaker 05

  And they take responsibility for it too.

• 1:12:55Speaker 03

  You're saying that I can't use scriptures and yet both of you do it.

• 1:12:59Speaker 04

  I'm telling us that you're lying to us.

• 1:13:01Speaker 05

  Oh, yes, you did.

• 1:13:02Speaker 04

  And you're ashamed of your actions and you will not explain your actions to us.

• 1:13:05Speaker 03

  Scriptures.

• 1:13:06Speaker 05

  Hey, crying.

• 1:13:07Speaker 03

  And Christ did not.

• 1:13:08Speaker 05

  Did Christ run from the cops?

• 1:13:10Speaker 04

  Did he give false names when he was arrested and approached by the police?

• 1:13:13Speaker 03

  He has repeatedly many times.

• 1:13:14Speaker 05

  Really?

• 1:13:14Speaker 04

  Oh, really? When did he ever give a bad name to the police like he did today?

• 1:13:18Speaker 05

  When did he ever do that? Christ never did that.

• 1:13:23Speaker 03

  He did.

• 1:13:23Speaker 05

  Didn't he kind of hand himself over?

• 1:13:25Speaker 04

  Are you telling me that our Savior lied to the police?

• 1:13:27Speaker 03

  He did not.

• 1:13:28Speaker 05

  He never? He never?

• 1:13:29Speaker 03

  He did not. In many instances, he did not give them what they were after.

• 1:13:34Speaker 05

  How many times did Christ get pulled over on a DUI? Or get... Break into someone else's house?

• 1:13:39Speaker 03

  No, there are prophets who are drunk and went drunk.

• 1:13:42Speaker 05

  How many times has Christ gone into a little girl's house and taken her out of her mind during the middle of the night against her will?

• 1:13:49Speaker 05

  One of you have known Christ to pick up a weapon?

• 1:13:50Speaker 03

  Okay, is Christ the God? Is he God?

• 1:13:54Speaker 05

  Oh, according to my religion, he is.

• 1:13:55Speaker 03

  All right, then all the things he commanded his people to do in the Bible, Christ did.

• 1:14:00Speaker 04

  Did he command anyone to abduct a little girl and have sex with her? I don't believe my New Testament says anything about that. I think this is all about, about man, well. I think it's all about. It's all about you and what you want. You want your virgin. You want to have a young girl to have sex.

• 1:14:17Speaker 03

  I know what you're gonna accuse me.

• 1:14:19Speaker 04

  Even if you have to.

• 1:14:20Speaker 03

  I know what you're gonna accuse me with. You want to accuse me of being some diabolical, evil criminal. And, and I'm the servant of God.

• 1:14:28Derrick Levasseur?

  Really interesting interview and the one thing I will say is that Brian Mitchell's no dummy. Very intelligent guy. That's the one thing you can take from this because he is completely in control. The entire time and is completely aware of where they're going. So in an interrogation, I'm trying to lead you somewhere. Where I get you into a corner and there's nowhere for you to go and accept to tell the truth. And there is a point during that interview where that happens where. Basically the detective to the right in the white t-shirt, if you're not watching this on video, I apologize, but there's two investigators in the room. And at one point he says to him, so what you're telling me is as a servant of God, you were delivered a, a, a virgin.

• 1:15:09Derrick Levasseur?

  That's what you were doing. And he pauses because he understands that if he says that, then he's admitting to, to being part of this crime. So he pauses and says, I didn't say that. You said that. So, cause he knew, even though he's, you would think that he's just speaking this biblical bullshit. And he's completely caught up in it and would just say whatever he feels is the truth as far as in his mind, as far as the religion is concerned. But when there's traps set up for him during this interrogation, where even though they can put it and frame it in a biblical sense. He realizes the criminal implications of it.

• 1:15:41Stephanie Harlowe?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:15:41Derrick Levasseur?

  He backs off.

• 1:15:42Stephanie Harlowe?

  Exactly. Why do you think when they said, how old is she? He said 18.

• 1:15:45Derrick Levasseur?

  There you go.

• 1:15:46Stephanie Harlowe?

  He knew she wasn't 18.

• 1:15:47Derrick Levasseur?

  Correct.

• 1:15:47Stephanie Harlowe?

  Now people say, oh, he's a religious zealot. He was crazy. He was a religious psychosis. No, because then it wouldn't matter if she was. It wouldn't matter if she was 14 or 18. Because it was what God told him to do. It wouldn't have mattered how old she was if he was a religious zealot and he didn't know what he was doing. He knows very well.

• 1:16:04Derrick Levasseur?

  Crazy person.

• 1:16:05Stephanie Harlowe?

  He said she's 18.

• 1:16:07Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah. And, and, and also just, you have to take this with, in the context in which I'm saying it, but I can see how he would be very convincing. To someone who wasn't of, you know, high intelligence, someone who just, or maybe just was a religious person.

• 1:16:22Stephanie Harlowe?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:16:23Derrick Levasseur?

  He, his delivery is.

• 1:16:27Derrick Levasseur?

  Uh, it's engaging.

• 1:16:28Stephanie Harlowe?

  And full of self-assurance, like confidence.

• 1:16:30Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, yeah, he and he's he's just very smart, definitely knows the religious side of things, obviously interpreting them completely wrong. And I personally, I asked you the question, do you believe that he believes this bullshit, or he's just spewing it to support his his behavior? I have now deduced, he knows the religion, but he's using it to support his behavior, which he knows is wrong.

• 1:16:53Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:54Derrick Levasseur?

  But he's disguising it as something that serves a higher purpose. If he didn't believe that, then he would be in there right there saying, yes, I went in there and took her because God told me to do it. And I was ordained, or I was granted that permission because God told me to.

• 1:17:14Stephanie Harlowe?

  But he won't even say that he went in there.

• 1:17:15Derrick Levasseur?

  He won't even put him past the threshold of entering the smart home. Does that sound like a religious servant or a lawyer?

• 1:17:22Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, that sounds like somebody who knows the legal legal framework and is tiptoeing around it.

• 1:17:25Derrick Levasseur?

  There you go. There's a blend going on there where he's combining his religious beliefs with where the technicalities are in the law.

• 1:17:33Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:34Derrick Levasseur?

  Before implicating himself and confessing to a crime.

• 1:17:37Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yes.

• 1:17:38Derrick Levasseur?

  Everything he's saying right now, in the in the biblical sense is, she was delivered to me. I E. I didn't take her. I E. I didn't have sex with her. He doesn't admit to any of that. He always stops short of it. And as far as the interrogation, because I like to talk about the interrogations. I thought it was good. I thought it was great. I love the part. It's definitely something a dirt. It's a Derekism for sure, where I'm like, all right, man. Well, don't mind me if I, you know, in the middle of this, cut you off because I think it's complete bullshit. Or, all right, Emmanuel, why don't you land the plane? Like, that's, that's the stuff where, you know, you have to keep. There's a, there's a, I don't know if it's the personality or an approach, but there's two sides you can go with this, right? You can completely play into it and be empathetic to the to the offender. And at points you have to do that.

• 1:18:22Derrick Levasseur?

  But then there's also a part where it's a balance. You have to let them know, hey, by the way, I'm giving you some rope here. But I don't believe your bullshit. Don't think you're winning here or that I'm buying what you're saying. I'm allowing you to just spew your fucking nonsense for now. However, I'm completely aware of what's happening here. And at some point, they both kind of interjected and said, yeah, yeah. You took her out of the home. We don't believe you. It's complete bullshit. And you know what you did. You did it at knife point. So I actually like their approach. I don't always love the two-person approach. I thought these guys played well off each other, and it probably wasn't their first rodeo doing that together.

• 1:18:58Stephanie Harlowe?

  So I think that the guy, so if you're looking at it, and Brian Mitchell's, you know, in the middle.

• 1:19:03Derrick Levasseur?

  White t-shirt guy and like gray t-shirt guy.

• 1:19:04Stephanie Harlowe?

  The guy on the left, I think, the guy on the left is supposed to be like the bad cop.

• 1:19:07Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:08Stephanie Harlowe?

  And the guy on the right is supposed to be like kind of the understanding guy. And he's, he's, the guy on the right, you'll see, he does have some familiarity with the LDS religion. He is a Mormon. The guy on the left, not from Utah, not a Mormon.

• 1:19:21Derrick Levasseur?

  No, he doesn't, he, he's not, he's like, I'll, I'll save that stuff for Sunday. It was great. I haven't, I have not seen this interrogation before, but at some point, mark my words. Do we have more interrogation footage still?

• 1:19:30Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:19:31Derrick Levasseur?

  Okay, mark my words, at some point, so the dynamic here, the only thing I don't like is they're both across from him, so it creates like-

• 1:19:39Stephanie Harlowe?

  Oh, don't worry, it changes.

• 1:19:40Derrick Levasseur?

  Okay, so, okay, so let me, let me guess, there's a power dynamic right now where there, it's me against you, like, that's the representation. It's us against you. And so I see one of the investigators going on that side of the table. And, and that's done for psychological, am I right? Are you laughing?

• 1:19:58Stephanie Harlowe?

  So, yeah, I mean, you're right. You'll see why it's funny that you said that, but like I said-

• 1:20:02Derrick Levasseur?

  Someone's going on that side of the table to try to be, I'm with you.

• 1:20:05Stephanie Harlowe?

  I don't know if he goes on the side of the table to say, I'm with you, but I think that one is supposed to be the good cop, one's supposed to be the bad cop, but eventually, they just are so disgusted by him and frustrated with him, that they both end up becoming the bad cop.

• 1:20:17Derrick Levasseur?

  Okay, well, I mean, I think they were starting to do it at the end of that video, but I definitely see someone going on that side of the table, and maybe it's a combination of I want to strangle you, and, you know, it's, it's, I'm trying to, I'm trying to get through to you. But this is a, this would be, this is a visual representation of Rage Bait before Rage Bait was a thing. This, this is gaslighting in a video sense.

• 1:20:39Stephanie Harlowe?

  He's completely calm. He does not, even his body language, he's reclined back, he doesn't like sit forward, he doesn't get aggressive.

• 1:20:45Derrick Levasseur?

  No, he's got a very calming demeanor.

• 1:20:48Stephanie Harlowe?

  Because he's trying to suggest to them like, I know things that you don't know, like this thing you're getting upset about, there's no reason to be upset about it. I'm so calm because I'm like Buddha, you know, like I've, I've reached, I've evolved levels of spirituality and getting upset about these things is so beneath me. I don't even know why you're doing this. This is how he's acting. Okay, so we're gonna take our last break and we'll be right back because it gets better or worse, depending on how you look at it.

• 1:21:19Stephanie Harlowe?

  Okay, we're back. So as you said, at one point, one of the detectives got up and moved to the same side of the table as Brian. But his tactics became more aggressive, more intense, more physically close. At some point, he starts like poking Brian with his finger, which if I, I would have, I lost it, I would have been like, poke me one more time, because I had an uncle that would, you'd do that when he was talking to you and it, it made me want to absolutely like snap his whole hand off. It's like, why are you poking me so much? But he's doing it and Brian, once again, does not react.

• 1:21:50Speaker 04

  This is you and the real core is you are not a prophet and you are not a servant of Jesus Christ. You are indeed Brian David Mitchell and you have done a really terrible, terrible thing that you need to get to. You have done something awful.

• 1:22:09Speaker 03

  I'll tell you, the both of you, you talk about shame, the great shame that will be upon you both.

• 1:22:15Speaker 05

  Hey.

• 1:22:16Speaker 03

  For tree, for, for, for talking the way, this way to the Lord.

• 1:22:20Speaker 05

  No.

• 1:22:20Speaker 03

  You're accusing, accusing, accusing me in this way.

• 1:22:23Speaker 05

  You are not the Lord's servant.

• 1:22:25Speaker 03

  The great shame, I tell you.

• 1:22:26Speaker 05

  Now, I don't feel shameful in saying it. I don't have, I don't have, I don't feel any shame in saying here.

• 1:22:30Speaker 03

  I say you will.

• 1:22:31Speaker 05

  You know what?

• 1:22:32Speaker 03

  You will reap great shame.

• 1:22:33Speaker 05

  You are not the Lord's servant. If heaven's filled with people like you, I'd be more comfortable in hell. Your story's bullshit. You took that fifteen year old girl out of her room at knife point.

• 1:22:41Speaker 03

  You are a.

• 1:22:41Speaker 05

  I drove her into a canyon, you raped her, you kept her tied up at the campsite, you traveled around the country with her for nine months. Telling her that her name was some bullshit, sheer job Esther Isaiah crap, saying that she was your wife sealed unto God. And then when you get caught for it, oh my God, then all of a sudden, she's been delivered to you by Christ.

• 1:23:00Speaker 03

  And you're, and, and, and then they gnashed their teeth on, on Christ. In the anger, their accusation against the Lord, they gnashed their teeth on.

• 1:23:07Speaker 04

  You are not.

• 1:23:08Speaker 05

  You're tiring.

• 1:23:09Speaker 04

  Of Jesus.

• 1:23:10Speaker 05

  You're not the servant of Jesus.

• 1:23:12Speaker 04

  You are not. Jesus' servants do not take little girls out of their house.

• 1:23:16Speaker 05

  You're a child laborer.

• 1:23:17Speaker 04

  And have sex with them. Let's face it, you are Brian David Mitchell, and you are a child molester.

• 1:23:23Speaker 05

  A criminal.

• 1:23:24Speaker 04

  A criminal who has done criminal acts, who cannot pass off his story by talking about Jesus.

• 1:23:30Speaker 05

  You don't.

• 1:23:31Speaker 04

  You are a fraud.

• 1:23:33Speaker 05

  You are.

• 1:23:34Speaker 04

  You are a fraud, sir.

• 1:23:35Speaker 05

  You're a hypocrite.

• 1:23:36Speaker 04

  You are a hypocrite and a fraud, and this is bullshit. You are not a servant of Jesus Christ, and you need to get over that.

• 1:23:45Speaker 05

  You can take that little simple smile off your face like you're some, you know, servant of the Lord bullshit and stuff it, because we know the truth. The truth is that you went into her bedroom during the middle of the night, held a knife to her throat. And here's another thing Christ probably never did. I don't think he ever threatened to kill children.

• 1:24:01Speaker 03

  Suddenly you're, someone, suddenly someone who never read the scriptures knows all about.

• 1:24:05Speaker 05

  You know what? I went to church enough times to know that I never heard any, uh, sermons from my, from my priest. Saying that, and then Jesus snuck into the bedroom at two o'clock in the morning and held a knife to her throat. That bullshit.

• 1:24:18Speaker 03

  Most churches and, and sermons and leaders seek for popularity, for power, for gain, for popularity and to say.

• 1:24:26Speaker 05

  We're off the subject again. We're off the subject again. You're talking about the church, we're talking about this.

• 1:24:29Speaker 03

  This is what the churches do.

• 1:24:30Speaker 05

  Brian.

• 1:24:31Speaker 04

  Brian, we're talking about.

• 1:24:32Speaker 05

  You're talking about you.

• 1:24:33Speaker 03

  Gain popularity.

• 1:24:35Speaker 05

  We're not talking, I don't care about the church right now. I wanna, I wanna be able to explain.

• 1:24:38Speaker 04

  Oh, wait a minute. I think we just hit a nerve there. Let's talk about lust of the flesh.

• 1:24:42Speaker 03

  The lust of the flesh are all, all of those things that you set your hearts upon other than Jesus Christ. You know what, my heart's not upon screwing a fourteen year old girl, virgin. I've never wanted to have sex with a virgin.

• 1:24:53Speaker 03

  And I never have either, and my heart's not set upon it either.

• 1:24:55Speaker 03

  No, you did. I, my heart is not, I did not. You did. I did not. I did not. Did not what? Do what you just said, I did not. You put a fourteen year old virgin to your campsite and you had sex with her against her will. What's your? You had one that showed her how to do it, and then you made her do it. What's your? And you had it higher up at the camp. What's your accusing me of? I'm accusing you, look at me, look at me in the eye. I'm accusing you of being a child molester, rapist. And your accusation is false. Bullshit.

• 1:25:26Derrick Levasseur?

  Bullshit.

• 1:25:26Speaker 03

  The truth. Say bullshit all you want. We are. Accusation. And guess what? I can say that, and I'm not, I'm not gonna feel any shame over it. Like you said, I'm gonna feel shame. You're lifted up in the pride of your heart. You know what? I'm not gonna feel any shame at all. But you're gonna feel great shame and great sorrow. No, I don't think so. No, the sorrow I feel, the sorrow I feel is for the smart family. Great destruction. The sorrow I feel is for the smart family and a fourteen year old girl who was taken out of that. I have more compassion, I have more compassion for that family. Then prove it and tell us the truth. Don't give me this god bullshit. I have more compassion for that family. Bullshit. Then prove it. Tell us the truth. Esther Isaiah. Tell us the truth. I've told you everything. Tell us the truth. Let me have it. You have nothing but. You haven't told us anything. If you wanna show compassion for that family, then you can explain it. What is this leading? This is me telling you that I think you're full of shit.

• 1:26:11Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, and what's that?

• 1:26:14Derrick Levasseur?

  I love it. I love all of it. I mean, listen, there is, there is, uh, if I'm playing just, you know, trying to be impartial, they gotta, they gotta control their emotions. I understand it. I had said before the break, you wanna get up and strangle this person, but you don't wanna put them in a position where they come off looking like a victim, right? Where there's some type of police overreach here. So I understand and respect the passion. These guys probably have kids themselves, and they're laying into them a little bit, but there is a fine line between being good cop, bad cop, and overstepping and becoming too passionate to a point where now it's, they're under duress. So even if the person does admit to something, the argument could be made that they were intimidated in order to, to make that confession.

• 1:26:59Derrick Levasseur?

  So that is something you have to consider. However, Putting that aside for a minute, what you see here is someone who is a quote unquote "man of God" directly lying about what he did, which right there is a consciousness of guilt. Right? Understanding that what he did was wrong when we're talking about sanity, right? For, for a potential crime and potential charge. He knows the difference between right and wrong, and even though he feels quote unquote "compelled by a higher power", he knows that what he did from a criminal sense was illegal. And is telling these two detectives to their faces directly, "I did not do what you just accused me of, which was having sex with a 14-year-old girl." We know that he did.

• 1:27:44Derrick Levasseur?

  He knows that he did. Now, if he had said, "I did, but it wasn't sex in the sense that you would think, "I did it for this purpose, to connect her with God", whatever it might be, whatever bullshit he wants to put out there. He's denying it emphatically. "It did not happen", which we know is false. Which tells you that he's completely sane and completely coherent and aware of what he did. And that this whole religious thing is a farce. And he's exactly what they described him as. He's a fraud.

• 1:28:12Stephanie Harlowe?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:28:13Derrick Levasseur?

  He's smart, but he's a fraud.

• 1:28:15Stephanie Harlowe?

  So, I think it's also, um, interesting, like, once again, the, the one detective, the first one to go to the side of the table, he's like poking him, poking him, and Brian just sort of lightly like brushes his finger. He like pushes his finger away and then brushes his shirt off.

• 1:28:29Derrick Levasseur?

  What is this supposed to mean?

• 1:28:30Stephanie Harlowe?

  Like, ew, why did you, why did you touch me? Like, don't, he's like brushing his shirt off, or the detective goes right back to like touching him? And I think they, I don't know, do you think it was kind of like, oh, we want to see, is he gonna snap? Is he gonna like get violent? Is he gonna like try to hit me? Or do you think they were trying to do that?

• 1:28:46Derrick Levasseur?

  I think they were trying to get him to lash out. I, I had told you guys a story, I think I told you on camera, I can't even remember, we've been together for so long. But I had a guy who was lying about something for multiple hours. And it wasn't until I started accusing him, or I basically said, "Hey, the people that were dead, "they were laughing at you. "They were laughing at you, they were making fun of you. "They were taking photos of you while you were drunk." And in that moment, after multiple hours of denying any involvement, said, "They ain't laughing now, are they?" Now, you can blurt out the, uh, the F-bomb, you guys know what I'm saying there. But it wasn't until that moment where I, I enraged him that he finally confessed. So, I have no problem with what they're doing. But on the other side of that coin, I think that Brian Mitchell's doing the same thing. He's pushing them.

• 1:29:31Derrick Levasseur?

  He's pushing them and pushing them, trying to enrage them so that they take a swipe at him. So that they'd swing at him, hurt him, do whatever, because he knows he's being recorded. And because he's aware of what's going on, he could use that as a defense. So I think that's what he's trying to do as well. It's definitely a cat and mouse game. It's a psychological battle and they're both playing it.

• 1:29:53Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, I mean, Brian's playing it a little bit better, maybe.

• 1:29:56Derrick Levasseur?

  I would, I would actually agree with you. I would actually agree with you. Now, I don't. I'm not, I love the interview. I love the interrogation. I don't have a problem with it so far. They're not getting anywhere. Let's just call it what it is. They're not getting anywhere. It's just a lot of them just. I think kind of speaking on behalf of law enforcement and the smart family, telling them what they want to tell them, right? But it's a, it's a lot of the same stuff. And if you look at Brian David Mitchell, I don't even have to see the rest of the interrogation to know he's never going to confess. He's never going to say outright, in this interrogation at least, that he did what they're accusing him of. So I would, I would agree with you that at this point, with the finger touching and the standing up pounding on the table, leaning over it. This guy's not going to be intimidated by that.

• 1:30:39Stephanie Harlowe?

  I don't think that was a tactic. I think they're generally just like.

• 1:30:42Derrick Levasseur?

  They're getting frustrated and that to me, or to anybody is you're losing, as you just said, you're, you're losing the battle. If you're raising your voice and you're slamming things and you're jumping up and it's not necessarily a tactic that you think is going to work. Well, then you're losing composure and therefore he's winning.

• 1:30:58Stephanie Harlowe?

  And so this is the first interview, right? Like the day he gets arrested, he doesn't even have a lawyer with him yet and he agreed to talk to them without a lawyer.

• 1:31:04Derrick Levasseur?

  He was like, I am my lawyer.

• 1:31:05Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, he felt completely comfortable.

• 1:31:07Derrick Levasseur?

  He was Miranda eyes and said, nope, I don't need it.

• 1:31:09Stephanie Harlowe?

  He felt completely comfortable knowing he could keep himself in check. He was not going to say anything incriminating. He knew that. He knows how smart he is and he knows the law, right? Remember, he spent all that time in the library, reading all these books about everything. He knows. Exactly what he can and cannot say. He didn't, he didn't even need a lawyer at this point. And so he also realizes that this is not going to work, like me talking is not going to work. So about 75 minutes into the interview, Brian stopped answering questions or saying anything altogether and he started singing hymns.

• 1:31:40Speaker 03

  I need thee, oh, I need thee.

• 1:31:47Speaker 04

  I know this song is good.

• 1:31:49Speaker 03

  I need thee.

• 1:31:50Speaker 04

  I know this song is good.

• 1:31:51Speaker 03

  Bless me now, my Savior. I come unto thee. I need thee every hour. In joy.

• 1:32:11Speaker 04

  Did you sing this to Elizabeth? No, we sang it in church. I remember her saying it at the campsite where I had a fourteen year old girl tethered up. Right before you had sex with her? Before I raped her.

• 1:32:23Speaker 03

  I need thee.

• 1:32:24Speaker 04

  Did you ever sing it before you held a knife to a fourteen year old girl's throat? No, I don't. No, I don't need that knife.

• 1:32:31Speaker 03

  Every hour I need thee.

• 1:32:32Speaker 04

  Yeah, you're gonna need something.

• 1:32:33Speaker 03

  Oh, bless me now, my Savior.

• 1:32:39Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, this is kind of more of the same, right? It's more of the same. The detectives here, if we're just stepping back and being impartial, they're losing the battle here. He's winning. The interview should probably be over at this point. He's got nothing more to offer. And then just going back, if you've profiled him at all at this point, you know that's not gonna break him. However, just to go back to that previous video we watched, because I think it's important. Although the detectives, I guess from a psychological standpoint, are losing, there is something very important in that interview, which I said. Even though he's not confessing to the crime, he's acknowledging the significance in the unlawfulness of the actions, right? So when you're talking about a potential defense, and I don't know the direction this case goes as far as, is he gonna get up there and claim insanity or whatever?

• 1:33:24Derrick Levasseur?

  But if that was the intent by not falling face first into this and completely embracing it and saying, "I did this because of someone else telling me to do it", you're losing that fight, you're losing that defense. He's clearly showing that he understands the distinction between right and wrong, which is all you really need here. Because you have all the evidence to support that he committed the crime. The part of this interrogation, I think, would be judging his level of mental competence and building a case toward that, because you have to assume he's gonna go in there and claim some type of crazy defense. So I do think for that purpose, if that's what the intention was, it was successful. But at this point, when he starts singing hymns...

• 1:34:10Derrick Levasseur?

  There's no point to still being in there. If I'm their supervisor, and it even looks like it might have happened there, Stephanie, in that second interview where there's someone at the door, they might have been saying, "Hey, wrap this up soon. It's not going anywhere. You're getting hostile. You're getting, you're losing it a little bit. Reel it back in." So that's, that's probably what happened.

• 1:34:26Stephanie Harlowe?

  And if you heard at the beginning of that clip, the detective in the white shirt starts singing along with him, and you can hear, and he's like, "Yeah, we, we sing this in church, you know, so I know, I know this hymn too. You know, you don't, you don't know anything special." And, yeah, I, I agree that they were trying to continue kind of coaxing him and, and getting a reaction out of him through the hymns, but that wasn't gonna happen. But if you remember, this is what people who knew Brian also said, that whenever a good point was made, or somebody had a counterpoint, or spoke with logic, he would just start singing hymns and the conversation would completely shut down. And that's what he's trying to do now. He's like, "I'm done talking, so this is what I'm gonna do. I don't have to have a conversation with you, so this is what I'm gonna do."

• 1:35:04Derrick Levasseur?

  He knows he's not gonna convince them, and they should know at this point that they're not gonna, they're not gonna incentivize him to confess to what they want. They're not gonna get him to say the words, "I raped Elizabeth Smart." He knows, he knows the law. He ain't gonna do it.

• 1:35:17Stephanie Harlowe?

  So Brian's singing the hymns, but then I guess he ran out of hymns, so he just stopped saying anything at all, no matter what his interviewer said, to get a reaction out of him.

• 1:35:25Speaker 05

  Brian David Mitchell, homeless, transient, can't keep a job, can't keep a wife, can't keep his dick out of his kid's hands, and, uh, you know, complete loser and everything. But boy, for that nine months, you were king. You had a 14-year-old girl at your beck and call. But, you know, she didn't come willingly, so you had to tie her down, pull the knife to her throat, threaten her little sister. And now, this is your chance to take responsibility for your stuff, for your actions. You sit there, you sing church hymns, you quote scripture, shut your eyes. It's pretty powerful.

• 1:36:03Speaker 04

  The only problem is, is you don't seem to know your scriptures as well as you think you do.

• 1:36:07Speaker 05

  Why as well as courting?

• 1:36:09Speaker 04

  And I've only read the Bible three times in my lifetime.

• 1:36:12Speaker 05

  By God, it's just they only read it when they told me to.

• 1:36:15Speaker 04

  You don't know your hymns, you run out of, you run out of the verses after this second verse, you don't know the words for them.

• 1:36:22Speaker 05

  Then you start humming.

• 1:36:23Speaker 04

  Then you start humming. Can't answer the truth. You know, the truth is such a simple thing. It never changes. Never changes.

• 1:36:32Speaker 05

  So the new move is just keep quiet, and sit there with your eyes shut, pretend that we're not here.

• 1:36:39Speaker 04

  You know, you talk about our tactics being bad, yours are worse. You think you're the only guy that we've ever talked to in this room? You think you're the only pedophile that we've ever had to sit down with and have a long chat with?

• 1:36:52Speaker 05

  That we've had to ask him about how many kids they've had sex with? How many children they forced?

• 1:36:57Speaker 04

  No, you're really not that different, you know? You're not that different than anybody else. You're not. You're just not. You're not special, Brian. And this bullshit about the Holy Spirit talking to you and commanding you to do this and commanding you to do that.

• 1:37:15Speaker 05

  That's just

• 1:37:17Speaker 04

  one big ego defense mechanism to cover up the failures of your life. You know, you're, you're just a fraud. And do you think you're seriously gonna go to court, sit in front of a jury of your peers? And try and say that you are deluded into thinking you were doing the right thing? Maybe that will get you off somehow?

• 1:37:37Speaker 05

  Hmm? Two women, too much of a pain? Too much nagging? Is that it? You got a little smile on your face when I said that. Women can be tough to live with. Two? Where you die of estrogen poisoning? For the candy? Come on, man. He remembered the answer to that one. Why'd you come back to Salt Lake City? Come on. Why'd you come back to Salt Lake?

• 1:38:03Speaker 04

  Elizabeth doesn't like you. She doesn't like you. She's talking about you right now. Okay?

• 1:38:10Speaker 05

  So is your wife, Lorna.

• 1:38:13Speaker 04

  You're nothing special. Elizabeth doesn't like you at all. She found you actually rather smelly. And disgusting.

• 1:38:21Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, a little bit more of the same, right? The only thing that I take there of value is what we were just talking about in that interview. That last part there, what did that investigator say? You think you're gonna go in front of a jury of your peers? And convince them that you were just deluded by these religious beliefs? Right? He's acknowledging what I said, which is the purpose of this interview, which is to show an awareness of what he was doing and the understanding of, of right and wrong and, and that this was a criminal act. So if that was the goal, they accomplished it. If their goal was to get him to confess, they're just bouncing their head off a rock wall. It's not gonna happen. And at this point with the rocking of the chair, you know, I'm sure if the investigators had to do it over again, they probably wouldn't have done this part.

• 1:39:05Stephanie Harlowe?

  So Derek's talking about, if you're listening on audio. When towards the end there, when he was talking to me, the one detective was like pushing his chair like, "Come on, come on, come on," and pushing his chair.

• 1:39:15Derrick Levasseur?

  His arm in his chair, yeah.

• 1:39:16Stephanie Harlowe?

  And Brian's completely, Brian's completely disassociated at this point. He's not responding at all.

• 1:39:21Derrick Levasseur?

  He wants to punch him right in the mouth. There's no doubt about it. I get it. I understand it. I'd want to do the same. There's, there's two approaches here. You go at him hard. If it doesn't work, you basically, that's it. You, they went at him hard and look what happened. He was open. He was willing to have a conversation. He was quoting scripture. It was a back and forth dialogue. However, when they turned it up a notch and started to put the heat on him, he closed off.

• 1:39:44Stephanie Harlowe?

  When they didn't pacify him, right? So when he, so the one detective was calling him Emmanuel for a little while. He gave up on that after a while and he kept calling him Brian, Brian. And when, when Brian realizes, okay, they're not even really going to play along with me.

• 1:39:59Derrick Levasseur?

  He shut down.

• 1:40:00Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah.

• 1:40:00Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah. It's almost like a child, right? If you, if you play along with him for a little bit, they'll play ball. But as soon as you say, "Hey, don't do that anymore," what do they do? They go in the corner and they pout.

• 1:40:08Stephanie Harlowe?

  They pout, yeah.

• 1:40:09Derrick Levasseur?

  So that's what's happening here. He lost the battle. He realizes that anything else he says at this point is going to be used against him in a court of law. And he basically shut down after they said, "You raped her." "I did not do that." That was his response. "I did not do that." And he knows at this point, "Oh, man, I'm flat out lying. I've lost this battle. There's nothing else I can say."

• 1:40:30Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah. I mean, I think he's trying to allude to the fact like what happened was not rape.

• 1:40:34Derrick Levasseur?

  But see, here's the thing. Not giving anybody ideas, but that would have been the play here. If he's going with an insanity plea, the play would have been to say, "You call it rape. I call it love and marriage. I call it uniting with God."

• 1:40:48Stephanie Harlowe?

  And he didn't do that, yeah.

• 1:40:48Derrick Levasseur?

  He did not do that.

• 1:40:49Stephanie Harlowe?

  No.

• 1:40:50Derrick Levasseur?

  Which to me is worse. And maybe he realized that.

• 1:40:52Stephanie Harlowe?

  He does realize. He's like, "No, if I admit to this at all, I know I've committed a crime. I know she's 14 and I know I took her from her house."

• 1:40:59Derrick Levasseur?

  Right. There's multiple things there, including the part that he says she was 18, all that stuff, right? He's now setting up a defense where he goes, "Oh, I thought she was 18."

• 1:41:06Stephanie Harlowe?

  Which is a typical child predator claim, right? How many times we hear that? "I thought she was 18." She told me she was 18.

• 1:41:12Derrick Levasseur?

  And by the way, even if she's 18, she has to consent to it, you asshole. Overall, he realized really quickly, even though the approach was off at some points, they did back him into a corner. They played along with the whole biblical thing. And as soon as he related to him in that sense, "Okay, so you're saying you're a servant of God and she was relayed to you or she was given to you for that purpose." I didn't say that. You did. Right there, he lost. Right there, he lost. And then when they pushed further on the whole, the actual, the rape itself, he knows he can't say anything. There's no way to spin that. If he was going with this insanity plea, that would have been the angle. He didn't do it. And now they basically got what they wanted. His silence and his inability to admit to it,

• 1:41:55Derrick Levasseur?

  tells you that he knows exactly what he did and that what he did was, was wrong. I know I keep saying it, but that's really what it comes down to. All this other stuff, as you're playing it, it doesn't go anywhere. It's just two detectives who are frustrated, and they're letting out their emotions. And at this point,

• 1:42:12Stephanie Harlowe?

  I think they're also hoping like, hey, if we say the right thing.

• 1:42:15Derrick Levasseur?

  Maybe they'll spike something?

• 1:42:16Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah. That's why it seems like they're trying stuff like, oh, maybe we'll tell him that Elizabeth and Wanda hate him and they think he's smelly. Oh, maybe we'll tell him he's just couldn't hold a job and couldn't please a woman. We'll try that. Oh, maybe we'll tell him that he doesn't really know his hymns that well. Like, we'll see what part of his character. Yeah, like what part of his character and his identity can we trigger him with? So it seems like they're trying different like aspects.

• 1:42:40Derrick Levasseur?

  That's fair. I mean, they were definitely trying different things that would be something that he was self-conscious about. I thought him not knowing the second verse of the hymn and humming it, I thought maybe that would open him up a little bit, maybe get some type of response, whether it was.

• 1:42:52Stephanie Harlowe?

  No, because he doesn't know it. So what's his response gonna be?

• 1:42:55Derrick Levasseur?

  Or something just to be like, oh, I do know it. I'm just not saying it. Something because they're just trying to open, they're trying to reengage with him. They tried, they realized at this point, he shut off. He's completely just like blocking them out at this point. And he's done. He's closed off completely. They're not going to get any type of response from him. They know that. So they're trying to re-initiate the conversation, but you can see it's, it's not going well.

• 1:43:18Stephanie Harlowe?

  So at the end of it all, when the detectives could get nothing further out of him, Brian offered seven words. You hate me, but I forgive you. And then from jail in April, Brian added to his book of Emmanuel. And this is basically going to be his defense said in fancy words. That is what Brian's good at. It says, quote, Emmanuel is accused of coming as a thief in the night. And so I will come as a thief in the night. He is accused of taking by force a virgin daughter of Zion, is accused of humbling a virgin daughter of Zion and bringing her low in the dust and binding her to him with a cord that could not be broken, accused of subjecting her to his will and all his ways. The spirit did work upon Shersheba's heart and she did open the window for Emmanuel

• 1:44:01Stephanie Harlowe?

  to enter her home before she retired to bed on the night she was taken. The Holy Spirit did work on the hearts of Shersheba's earthly parents and they did invite Emmanuel into their home for in their spirits, they knew Shersheba would be taken by the hand of the Lord for a glorious purpose. Shortly before she was taken, her earthly parents removed the lock from Shersheba's bedroom door and turned the security alarm off the back door of the house. End quote. It goes on to say that Elizabeth got out of her bed and came forth upon hearing the Lord's command in her heart. She followed Emmanuel to the camp and fell into the arms of Wanda with the greatest joy and peace and exultation. He says that on the third day, Elizabeth's family came looking for her in the mountains and called her name and she sat silent with tears in her eyes, not because she was afraid

• 1:44:43Stephanie Harlowe?

  of Mitchell or Wanda, but because she knew if she had called back out, she would have been found and she didn't want to be. So now Brian's saying, I did go into her house, but it's because she let me. She unlocked the door. Her parents unlocked the door and they knew I was coming and they knew she would be taken. So I don't know what kind of defense this is. So now he's kind of in his own writing, admitting that, oh yeah, I did take her. But it was because she wanted to be taken and she knew I was coming and her and her parents were totally on board with this, which is weird. But yeah, that's basically where we're at now. And in the next episode, we'll go into.

• 1:45:24Stephanie Harlowe?

  His mental health defense, what the different uh mental health professionals said about him, his trial, and uh yeah.

• 1:45:31Derrick Levasseur?

  Mental health professionals, yeah, no, it all makes sense. This this scripture, this writing from him, I shouldn't call it a scripture, you know, he ain't no servant of God. But it's an evolution and it's a course correction because of that interrogation, right? He was gonna go with the whole, I'm doing this because God compelled me to do it. He realizes in that interview that he acknowledged the legality of what he did by just not responding to it and by denying it directly. Realizing now that that's probably not gonna work, there's a course correction here. Where now he's saying, hey, yeah, I did it. But this is what happened and this is the reason it happened. They're all in on it.

• 1:46:07Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, he's saying I'm being accused of this, but that's not what happened here.

• 1:46:10Derrick Levasseur?

  That's not what happened. I don't think that was the original intent.

• 1:46:12Stephanie Harlowe?

  He probably knows like, okay, the sister saw me, right? There's way too much evidence that I did come in and take her. I can't deny that forever.

• 1:46:20Derrick Levasseur?

  Elizabeth's testimony as well, you know, like there's a lot there and so yeah, he, this is a course correction. And it's, it's, I think it's a combination of things, but I I definitely think that interrogation was successful in in one of its missions, which is to prove that this guy is completely aware of what he did.

• 1:46:38Stephanie Harlowe?

  Agreed, yeah.

• 1:46:39Derrick Levasseur?

  That's my takeaway.

• 1:46:40Stephanie Harlowe?

  But I, I think it's also important to hear him talk for ourselves because we've heard other people talk and say, oh, you know, he was very like confident. He seemed to know what he was talking about.

• 1:46:48Derrick Levasseur?

  No, you can see it. You can see it. I, I get it now. Doesn't mean I like him, but I can, I can, I can separate myself from emotion and say, I get it. I can see how he's a compelling speaker. And if you're, if you're someone who is, I guess, looking for guidance, he would be able to provide it.

• 1:47:04Stephanie Harlowe?

  And how so many people, by the way, would have said he's completely normal. Like, yeah, was he a religious zealot? Was he really like into stuff? Was he very passionate about religion?

• 1:47:15Stephanie Harlowe?

  Other than that, though, he's completely normal. He doesn't seem to be, you know, out of his mind. He's not unhinged. He's not rambling or raving. He's normal. He does. He seems like a normal guy talking about sports, maybe, but he's not.

• 1:47:29Derrick Levasseur?

  No, he's not. He's a monster for sure. And as Stephanie said in the middle of the episode, I have been talking to Elizabeth. Tentatively, she is going to come on and we're going to have some, you know, conversation about this. I told her we're going to keep it, you know, surface level, but if you were in the comments, Stephanie and I are both looking at what you guys are saying on YouTube specifically. If you want to leave a review, put a comment in there. I'm watching those as well. I know Stephanie is as well. You could go over there and leave something. We're going to be writing some questions down that you guys may have. And if Elizabeth is kind enough to grace us with her presence and give us some time to talk about it, we will try to pepper in some of your questions as well. We still have the one more episode that we have to do. This would be after that. And maybe it would just be an interview with just her in that episode. You know, we'll

• 1:48:14Derrick Levasseur?

  see how it goes. But yeah, it's really going to do it for us. If you guys are listening to this on Friday, we just got through the snowstorm in the Northeast. And if you're watching on Sunday, hopefully we're not buried anymore and we're out moving around. But we're gonna be back next week. Any final words from you, Stephanie, before we wrap it up?

• 1:48:29Stephanie Harlowe?

  No, that's it. I'm gonna go home and hunker in and make sure I have enough food and water.

• 1:48:34Derrick Levasseur?

  Ready to go. Guys, everyone stay safe out there. We'll see you next week. Take care.