Caller: “I’m Attracted to My Husband’s Best Friend”

📋 Weekly Rundown (your weekly marriage check-in) On today’s episode, we hear about: A woman struggling with her attraction to her husband’s friend A couple grappling with the lingering effects of past infidelity A woman wondering how to properly grieve her late husband Next Steps: 📚 Finding Meaning: The Sixth Stage of Grief 🔥 Microhabits for a Better Marriage. Download the Together app. ❤️Join Dr. John Delony at Money & Marriage Getaway. 📞 Ask John a question! Call 844-693-3291 or send us a message. 📚 Building a Non-Anxious Life 📝 Anxiety Test 📚 Own Your Past, Change Your Future ❓ Questions for Humans Conversation Cards 💭 John’s Free Guided Meditation 🤘🏼 The Dr. John Delony Show Merch Connect With Our Sponsors: Get 10% off your first month of BetterHelp. Go to Capstone Wellness to learn more. Get up to 20% off with code DELONY at Cozy Earth. Get 20% off when you join DeleteMe. Visit Hallow for a 90-day free trial. Visit Helix Sleep for special offers! Go to Joi + Blokes and get 50% off labs and 20% off products. Working knives for working people—go to Montana Knife Company to see what’s available now! Explore Poncho Outdoors! Get 25% off your order at Thorne. Visit Zander Insurance or call 1-800-356-4282 for your free instant quote today. Explore More From Ramsey Network: 🎙️ The Ramsey Show 💸 The Ramsey Show Highlights 🍸 Smart Money Happy Hour 💰 George Kamel 📈 EntreLeadership Ramsey Solutions Privacy Policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:05Dr. John Delony?

  Brought to you by my friends at Churchill Mortgage. If you're looking to buy or refinance, check them out. I've used Churchill and they are great. Go to churchillmortgage.com.

• 0:15Speaker 01

  There's this new couple that started attending our church. And I don't know why, for whatever reason, the husband just caught my attention. So because of it, I've been keeping my distance away from him.

• 0:27Dr. John Delony?

  What's happening next in your mind? Like, what steps are you taking after those feelings?

• 0:32Speaker 01

  Well, this is where it gets really tricky.

• 0:39Dr. John Delony?

  What up? What's going on? This is John with the Dr. John Deloney Show, talking about your marriage, your relationships, whoever you're dating, your kids, whatever you've got going on in your life, your mental and emotional health, all of it, real people with real problems. Love to have you on the show. Click the link in the show notes and we will get you on. Before we take our first call, Alex, what happened, dude?

• 1:03Dr. John Delony?

  I've heard of a lot of gastrointestinal, get off one of the desk. He's hiding under the desk. We can still smell you, dude. Look, I know I've made a career talking about gastrointestinal issues. I've never heard of somebody being allergic in their guts to onions.

• 1:24Dr. John Delony?

  Nothing?

• 1:26Speaker 02

  Oh, I'll chime in.

• 1:27Dr. John Delony?

  You, let's just paint the picture. You had a full beard this morning, Kelly. Not uncommon. It all fell out, just being in that room. I can feel the heat.

• 1:38Speaker 02

  Okay, I'm gonna be fair to Alex, and nothing has happened yet.

• 1:41Dr. John Delony?

  Are you kidding?

• 1:42Speaker 02

  Nothing's happened yet.

• 1:44Dr. John Delony?

  My skin itches.

• 1:45Speaker 02

  But Alex knows that onions are a no-no.

• 1:49Dr. John Delony?

  Cause explosive.

• 1:51Speaker 02

  And at lunch, he made a choice for all of us.

• 1:56Speaker 03

  Behavior's a language, just take note.

• 1:58Speaker 02

  And his language.

• 1:59Dr. John Delony?

  He said some bad things.

• 2:00Speaker 02

  Four-letter word.

• 2:02Dr. John Delony?

  I can, I can watch your eyebrows falling out, Ben. Just every inhale you take. I've just, I've never heard of that before.

• 2:10Speaker 03

  I'm not allergic, I'm just sensitive.

• 2:13Dr. John Delony?

  Is that your bumper sticker that goes on your Subaru?

• 2:18Speaker 03

  My Kia Soul?

• 2:19Dr. John Delony?

  On your Kia Soul. I'm not allergic, I'm just sensitive.

• 2:24Dr. John Delony?

  Oh my gosh, I feel bad for everybody in that booth. I'm protected in here and I can still like, my skin itches.

• 2:31Speaker 02

  If at any point the camera like comes in here and it's just.

• 2:34Dr. John Delony?

  Everybody's passed out.

• 2:35Speaker 02

  We're gone, yeah, that's why.

• 2:38Dr. John Delony?

  Alex with his Carl the crawler potion that you cast upon your, everybody in there. The only one who will still be standing?

• 2:46Dr. John Delony?

  Hamas, Andrew, because he's from West Virginia and he grew up on mayonnaise and meth and he is good to go.

• 2:53Speaker 02

  And the whole state stinks anyway.

• 2:54Dr. John Delony?

  He's, he's.

• 2:55Speaker 04

  No sense of smell.

• 2:56Dr. John Delony?

  He's just like, you know what? It's all good. Exactly. That guy will still just be recording away while you guys just drop like flies in there. Actually, if you drop like, never mind. I was going to Fresno, California and talked to Rebecca. Hey Rebecca, what's up?

• 3:11Speaker 01

  Hello, Dr. John, how are you doing today?

• 3:14Dr. John Delony?

  You can just call me John. I'm doing great, how are you?

• 3:17Speaker 01

  For the most part, life has been pretty good.

• 3:20Dr. John Delony?

  Very good, very good. So what's going on?

• 3:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, so I'll start off with my question. How do I stop feelings that I have towards someone who is not my husband?

• 3:29Dr. John Delony?

  Ooh, man, that's a lot. Tell me about it.

• 3:32Speaker 01

  All right, so my husband and I have been married for six years. And ever since then, we've been attending this church that's just been in our neighborhood.

• 3:42Speaker 01

  So it probably all started last year when there's this new couple that started attending our church. And I don't know why, for whatever reason, the husband just caught my attention.

• 3:54Dr. John Delony?

  I mean, you know, you know the reason, is he a good-looking guy?

• 3:57Speaker 01

  Actually, believe it or not, no.

• 3:59Dr. John Delony?

  Okay. Like, what was it about him that, that caught your attention? Is he smart? Is he kind? Is like, what was it that you thought when he walked through the room? Hmm?

• 4:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, so I think the biggest thing that attracted me to him was just his character. He has a lot of positive energy. Yeah, and I just love how he conducts himself around other people and how he's nice in that matter.

• 4:27Dr. John Delony?

  You get the irony though, right?

• 4:31Speaker 01

  The irony?

• 4:32Dr. John Delony?

  Like, I'm, I'm married to somebody and I'm attracted to that guy's character. That's kind of awesome.

• 4:36Speaker 01

  I know, yeah.

• 4:37Dr. John Delony?

  Okay, so, um, all right, so you notice him? He's, he's, it seems like just a great guy.

• 4:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, he is, for sure.

• 4:46Dr. John Delony?

  And then?

• 4:47Speaker 01

  So, yeah, so over the year, I've noticed I've developed these feelings for him.

• 4:53Speaker 01

  And I honestly hate how I am feeling towards somebody who is not my husband. I just feel absolutely embarrassed and ashamed by it. So because of it, I've been keeping my distance away from him, just because I really want to protect my husband and my marriage. Well, this is where it gets really tricky because in the past two months, my husband has developed a very close friendship with this same guy.

• 5:21Speaker 01

  And it's to the point where they're talking to each other every time we go to church on Sundays and Wednesday nights. They're texting each other throughout the week. And my husband has talked to me a couple of weeks ago, asking if we could start inviting this couple over to our house because my husband wants all of us just to be well acquainted with each other as couples. Anyway, so I just feel really stuck because here I am in my world where I am trying to avoid this individual, try and stop these feelings as much as possible, just to protect my husband. But at the same time, I feel like I can't escape because my husband wants us to all be friends.

• 6:01Dr. John Delony?

  So.

• 6:06Dr. John Delony?

  Dig into this with me a little bit, okay? So there's gonna be people for the rest of time that you're attracted to, that are stunning aesthetically, they're just beautiful, right? Or super handsome, or super attractive, or whatever. Or, and/or, right? These aren't mutually exclusive, there's gonna be people that you talk to and you just like, like, let me put it this way, you should have feelings arise when somebody is strong, or they are of great character, or they're a great singer, or a thoughtful poet, or they think through something in a, in a powerful intellectual way.

• 6:49Dr. John Delony?

  You should feel yourself gravitating towards those people. And that has no impact unless you, unless you allow it to on your marriage, right? And so if somebody beautiful comes, walks by, it's not like I'm, I'm happily, I'm more than happily married. Like, I'm ride or die for, for almost a quarter century. And there's still super attractive people, attractive people in the world, right? That I feel good around, or I feel that they're beautiful, or there's guys with way bigger muscles, or way nicer, or way smarter than me, that my wife would feel attracted to. Like, that's part of life. The next layer though is, it's the meditation on it. It's the fantasizing about it.

• 7:32Dr. John Delony?

  It's the, I'm gonna take those feelings and I'm gonna insert myself into those feelings in some sort of created, secret world that's just me, in this imagined version of that person. So if you see somebody at church, at the grocery store, at work, and you're like, man, that is an awesome guy. And you have positive feelings towards them, even attracted, like, that to me doesn't, that's a human response. What's happening next in, in your mind? In your spirit, in your body?

• 8:07Dr. John Delony?

  Are you imagining what it would be like to be with that person? Are you fantasizing about that person? Like, what steps are you taking after those feelings when you're just by yourself?

• 8:18Speaker 01

  Right, yeah, definitely. No, and that's something I just really want to be cautious about, is just, yeah, what boundaries are in place, I guess. I guess I just, yeah, I just want to call to see if it's, if it was okay, you know, to, you know, feel.

• 8:34Dr. John Delony?

  So if.

• 8:35Speaker 01

  What feeling towards someone.

• 8:41Dr. John Delony?

  Think of feelings as, um, lights on a dashboard.

• 8:47Dr. John Delony?

  What are those, not the problem itself, or not the issue itself, or not even the thing itself, but pointing towards that thing? If you looked at feelings like that, what would your feelings like toward this person? What would they be telling you about you? About your marriage? About the guy you're married to? About just what you happen to think's attractive?

• 9:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, I guess, um, I'm just really attracted to the positive energy that, um, yeah, that I mentioned earlier.

• 9:27Dr. John Delony?

  Are you, are you missing that positive energy somewhere else in your life?

• 9:34Speaker 01

  For the most part, well, for the most part, no. The only area I could see in my life where it might be missing is between my husband and I a little bit.

• 9:43Dr. John Delony?

  Tell me about that. Because here's the thing, the, the reason it feels like you're calling

• 9:51Dr. John Delony?

  is that it's not just a recognition of somebody's pretty awesome.

• 9:57Dr. John Delony?

  Or this guy's great and I feel good in his presence. That's a normal human reaction, right? It's when you take that and you imagine him without his wife, and you without your husband, and you, again, you create a whole other world that begins to, that your husband's not allowed into, that his wife's not allowed into, that he doesn't even know is exist, is existing, right? And you meditate on that world. And that's when people get themselves in trouble. Because that world starts to creep into the real world.

• 10:35Speaker 01

  No, yeah, that definitely makes sense.

• 10:38Dr. John Delony?

  But I feel like you just kind of paused on me. Or you kind of, you came to a door and you're scared to open it.

• 10:45Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, I'm just kind of reflecting on my own marriage and kind of like what you mentioned before. What's missing, that positive energy that we were talking about. Um, yeah, and I mean, it's been like honestly, for the most part, and I say this like 90% of our marriage is pretty great. I'm very thankful with the guy.

• 11:07Dr. John Delony?

  A lot, a lot of affairs happen in good marriages.

• 11:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's true.

• 11:12Dr. John Delony?

  Because people are seeking a sense of aliveness.

• 11:15Speaker 01

  Right.

• 11:16Dr. John Delony?

  They have a good co-manager, they have a good friend, they have a good co-parent, they have a good co-earner. And they're dead in their own skin.

• 11:26Speaker 01

  Right, yeah. No, that's the thing, it's just, um, it's definitely, the past couple of months have been pretty hard on our marriage. I know.

• 11:36Dr. John Delony?

  Tell me about it.

• 11:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, so I am three months postpartum with our first son.

• 11:42Dr. John Delony?

  Okay.

• 11:43Speaker 01

  Um, on top of that, my husband is starting a auto repair business on top of working for another repair shop, uh, just in our city.

• 11:54Dr. John Delony?

  Mm-hmm.

• 11:55Speaker 01

  Um, yeah, I just feel like, you know, like obviously we have a good time, but there's definitely a lot of stressful times. And I know usually whenever my husband gets home, um, you know, once he's done work, he's just immediately going uh, and focusing on uh, his business. So.

• 12:14Dr. John Delony?

  What does that mean? Does he have another car in the driveway that he's working on? Or does he go in and play on the computer for a while?

• 12:20Speaker 01

  No, right now it's more just uh, researching on the computer how he can get um, his business uh, up and running.

• 12:28Dr. John Delony?

  I'll tell you right now, I'll tell you right now how he can get his business up and running. He can start having people drop their cars off in your driveway.

• 12:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, and that's the thing, like he is, like, it's just maybe a couple of cars um, throughout the couple of weeks or so, and he's trying to find a way to how to build his business up even more so.

• 12:45Dr. John Delony?

  I'll tell you how you build your business up. You keep repairing cars until the demand for your abilities and what you bring to your customers exceeds your ability to do them. And then you hire somebody else.

• 12:56Speaker 01

  Right, okay.

• 12:57Dr. John Delony?

  So here's what I'm getting at.

• 13:01Dr. John Delony?

  If you are sitting at home with a newborn

• 13:07Dr. John Delony?

  in whatever stage of post-pregnancy world you're experiencing, whether it's postpartum, whether it is exhaustion, it could be all of it, right? And then he gets home. It may be a season when this is not the best moment to start a new business, because I want you home.

• 13:27Dr. John Delony?

  I want you next to me in this season.

• 13:30Speaker 01

  Right.

• 13:30Dr. John Delony?

  I need six months. Or

• 13:35Dr. John Delony?

  the way you start a business is you just start doing the job. You don't spend 500 years Googling stuff. Because what you're doing then is you're playing on the computer and you're avoiding us. And that's you saying, I'm lonely and I miss you.

• 13:52Dr. John Delony?

  And also, I've been the husband who is trying my best, and I knew after a few months of my son first coming home, all I knew is that I messed everything up. And I thought the only value I can add to this house is to go make more money.

• 14:14Dr. John Delony?

  And it's very common dynamic that one person feels like they're in a guilt factory. I'm not doing enough, I'm not up and upright enough, I'm not energetic enough, I'm not my old self, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not. And then the other person feels like they're in a failure factory. I can't win here.

• 14:32Dr. John Delony?

  And so it's about saying, hey, the marriage we had before we had a baby, totally over, it doesn't exist anymore. Let's swipe the deck and say, what do we want this new marriage to look like and feel like?

• 14:45Dr. John Delony?

  In a double winter, like, we had a wild ice storm last year in the middle of the winter. It was winter, it was already cold, and then we got blasted with an ice storm on top of it. That's you guys being in winter, hey, it's just a rough season, we have a newborn here, and neither of us have ever done this before. We've never been married and had a newborn. And you're talking an ice storm on top of it, like, let's start a business too. Because that would be like, on top of a full-time job, that would be winter in a, if y'all had two kids and they were seven and 10, right? That would be a chaotic season.

• 15:23Speaker 01

  Right.

• 15:23Dr. John Delony?

  It's getting underneath those things and saying, hey, we get to choose what our marriage feels like. Are you in to rebuild this thing, however we want it? We're gonna get a marriage one way or the other, unless one of us quits. Um, let's be intentional about building the one we want.

• 15:42Speaker 01

  So I guess my um, other question is, despite like all this stressful stuff that we're going through in life, can we even experience some of that, those positive uh, feelings that, you know, I've been attracted to outside of our marriage?

• 15:58Dr. John Delony?

  I mean, a million percent, but y'all get to choose. And they're gonna be different. There's always gonna be the exciting and the new and the I wonder. And the, this person has a totally different energy and vibe that makes me feel good. That's, that's just human nature. That's life. And that's the beauty of life. Everyone's world is better when a fireman walks in. Right? Like somebody who's, like, you go, ah, that guy can handle stuff. Right? Like, everyone should feel attracted to that. Everyone should feel attractive when a beautiful or confident or hilarious or smart or like, woman walks in a room, like, you should, it lifts the whole room up, it's awesome.

• 16:41Dr. John Delony?

  It's when you take that and say, hey, that's mine.

• 16:47Dr. John Delony?

  And I'm gonna wall off my spouse, my ride or die. I'm gonna cut them off of this trip, and I'm gonna create a secret world with myself and my fantasized version of this other person. And I'm gonna meditate on it. I'm gonna, I'm gonna fantasize about it, I'm gonna masturbate to it, I'm gonna, it's gonna become the thing I think about when my eyes are closed.

• 17:09Dr. John Delony?

  And that's where people get themselves in trouble.

• 17:13Dr. John Delony?

  Because here's the, the, the other frustrating part for me is, as an observer of these relationships, is your spouse feels that disconnection. They just don't know what it is.

• 17:27Dr. John Delony?

  And if a spouse is caring, their impulse is gonna be, oh, it must be me. And they're gonna try to fix themselves in the only ways they know how. Without a roadmap, without a discussion, without a, hey, here's what I would like in this new season.

• 17:43Dr. John Delony?

  And it's its own special brand of cruelty.

• 17:48Dr. John Delony?

  You know what I'm saying?

• 17:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, I definitely get what you're saying.

• 17:53Dr. John Delony?

  So the easy, I mean, the easy thing here is just to say, I don't like that guy. I don't want to be around that guy. Or, no, thank you. Or, hey, you wanna have so-and-so over tonight? No. I mean, you could play the avoidance game. And I think there's some wisdom to that. If you're finding yourself sexually attracted to him, you're texting him, you wanna blow his marriage up too, like, yeah, there's a, cut everything off.

• 18:22Dr. John Delony?

  If you're not there yet, if there's just a really great new family at your local church and you like this guy's energy, or you think this guy's extra funny, or you think this guy's extra smart, that's great, grand and wonderful. But the real challenge here is like, am I gonna take that and fantasize about it and create a world where it's just us two together? Or can I look at that set of feelings and say, man, me and my husband, we have a whole new marriage now, we need to be honest about what's gonna inject life into it. And let's give each other some clear roadmaps about what we want in this new cold season that we're in. Because, because spring's coming, summer's coming. Right? You're not gonna be sleepless forever.

• 19:07Dr. John Delony?

  You're not gonna be exhausted forever. Is what I'm saying making sense?

• 19:12Speaker 01

  No, it definitely is making sense.

• 19:16Dr. John Delony?

  I can't tell by your silence if you've crossed lines and you don't want to say it publicly, or if you're nervous, or if you're exhaling because like, okay, I'm not in dangerous territory. Tell me where you are.

• 19:31Speaker 01

  I just feel kind of relieved, just knowing that maybe what I'm experiencing is somewhat normal. Yeah, because I've been carrying, well, I mean, I've never shared any of this, not even with my husband for like, the past year. And it's just been this thing that's just been eating at me. Just why am I attracted to this? Why am I, and you know, looking at, comparing that to my own marriage and just wondering like, why, why is my marriage so hard? And while it looks like they have it easy, and you've got this great energy, and why do I, I have that for my husband? So just hearing you kind of affirm it's okay, and that there's rough points in our life. Yeah, it's just kind of what I need to hear.

• 20:15Dr. John Delony?

  But I don't, I want to norm it for you, right? Which is just a nerd way of saying, you're not crazy. Okay. This is life. But where I want to, I don't want to, I can't push you, right? Because we're just talking on the phone. But like, where I want to strongly encourage you go, is that you sit down with your husband. And if it's a confrontation, it's a confrontation. If it's a, if he's a loving, connected guy, just doing the best he can with what he knows, then it'll be a, not an easy conversation, but a connecting conversation. It'll bring you all closer together. But one of you has to say, hey, the marriage we had doesn't exist. What do we want to build now? And here's what I'm

• 20:59Dr. John Delony?

  feeling, not, you don't do this, and you don't have positive vibes, or whatever you think this other person's bringing. But you being able to say, I have found myself feeling like this. And here's what I would love. I would love for you to pause this new business you're playing with on the computer. Don't say it like that. That's just me being dismissive. But I want us to take a dance class. I want us to, and I want you to be home at night for the next few months. This, the weight of all of this is, I'm exhausted. I'm exhausted.

• 21:39Dr. John Delony?

  And if you have been finding yourself like, I would say dangerously attracted, but I'm going to make some bad choices here. I'm finding this man consuming a lot of my mind, a lot of my thought, a lot of like, my, my fantasy life, then yeah, we need to draw the thick boundary line, cut it off. But if you just feel good around somebody, man, you feel good around somebody. Well, thanks for the call, Rebecca. Yeah, you're not crazy. But I do think this is a signal for you and your husband to sit down and dream and imagine together. What's tomorrow look like? What's the next year look like? What do we want to do for each other? What do you want? What do I want? And reclaim ownership over your

• 22:23Dr. John Delony?

  marriage. It doesn't have to just drift with intentionality. You can constantly be pointing those boat, that boat back true north. Thanks for the call. We come back, a married couple asks how to rebuild their relationship after he broke their trust. We'll be right back.

• 22:44Dr. John Delony?

  All right. If you come over to my house and just hang out for a little while, or you stay, stay the whole week, you're gonna find out that when I talk about Cozy Earth, and how much Cozy Earth gear I've got, I'm telling a hundred percent truth. I got Cozy Earth towels, they're amazing towels. I got Cozy Earth comforters and blankets. I got Cozy Earth socks. And man, Cozy Earth sheets on all the beds in the house. These sheets are made from viscose, from bamboo. They are the softest, most comfortable sheets on the planet. And they keep me cool throughout the summer. They're just amazing. All of Cozy Earth's gear is so great. It's why I've covered my house up in it. And here's what's so awesome. Cozy Earth gives you a hundred night sleep trial on all of their bedding,

• 23:28Dr. John Delony?

  their comforters and their sheets. And they give you a 10 year warranty on everything else. So you can fill up your house with Cozy Earth gear with literally no risk. Try Cozy Earth for yourself. Trust me. It will give you a level of warmth and comfort in your home that you need. Go to cozylearth.com/deloney and use code DELONY and you'll save up to 20% off your entire order. That's cozylearth.com/deloney. Use code DELONY. And if you get a post purchase survey, tell Cozy Earth you heard about their amazing gear, right here on the Dr. John Deloney Show.

• 24:05Dr. John Delony?

  Hey, it's Deloney for Joy and Blokes, an amazing new partner on this show. The modern healthcare environment tells us to only focus on symptoms. What feels wrong? And that makes sense, I get it. But staying at the surface and focusing on how you feel, never gets to the root challenges of what you're actually facing, what's going on in your body. This is why I'm a huge fan of getting your blood tested on a regular basis. And it's why I'm a huge fan of Joy and Blokes. I've had blood work done by all of the major platforms, and Joy and Blokes is incredible. They start with a comprehensive blood test that gives you real data and insight into what's going on inside your body. But it doesn't end there. Because a comprehensive blood panel doesn't mean much unless you can talk to someone who

• 24:50Dr. John Delony?

  can tell you what it all means, and what you can start doing to live better. Joy and Blokes will pair you with a clinician who will review your results, talk with you, and help you create a personalized plan, and help you take action. Whether the answer is a few lifestyle changes, or a more comprehensive treatment plan, everything can be prescribed and managed through Joy and Blokes. Joy and Blokes is for women and men who want to be proactive with their health. Go to joyandblokes.com/deloney and get 50% off all labs and 20% off all of their products. That's J O I and B L O K E S. Joyandblokes.com/deloney.

• 25:34Dr. John Delony?

  All right, I've got a couple on the line. We're gonna go to Miami, Florida, and I'm gonna bring on Elaine first. Hey Elaine.

• 25:41Speaker 05

  Hi, Dr. John, how are you?

• 25:42Dr. John Delony?

  I'm doing great. All right, let me bring in Nate. Nate Dogg, what's up Nate?

• 25:48Speaker 06

  What's going on, Dr. John? How you doing?

• 25:50Dr. John Delony?

  I'm doing great. Okay, so I got Nate in the lane from Miami, Florida. Are y'all together in the same house right now? Or are y'all in different places?

• 25:57Speaker 06

  We're, we're in different places, but, but we're, we're always together.

• 26:01Dr. John Delony?

  There we go. Okay, so, um, all right, so who wrote in?

• 26:06Speaker 05

  I did.

• 26:07Dr. John Delony?

  Okay, Elaine, uh, I'll let you go first. So batter up. So what's going on?

• 26:13Speaker 05

  Okay, so my question is, how do I reveal trust and move forward in my marriage, even after he's proven himself trustworthy years later?

• 26:24Dr. John Delony?

  Okay, so tell me about it.

• 26:26Speaker 06

  That's a good question.

• 26:26Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah, it's a great question. Tell me about it.

• 26:29Speaker 05

  So I met my husband when I was 15, and he was 16. We were high school sweethearts. We dated through high school and college. After graduating, we had a big breakup. We broke up for about nine years. He had a relationship with another young lady and had a son. I got married and divorced. I have two children. We got married about two years after my divorce. And the first three months of our marriage, we didn't live together. Once we did live together, I found out some things that were taking place at the earlier part of our marriage that I wasn't aware of. Particularly, an incident with the mother of his child, in

• 27:12Speaker 05

  which she sent an email kind of detailing a, a night they spent together. When I asked him about it, at first he told me nothing happened. It was an emotional evening. He consoled her. They went their separate ways. It didn't sit with me. So I asked again. Then the story began to grow. One night turned into two nights. One of these nights, they had a sexual encounter, but it wasn't, it was all sex. So I, I was devastated, shattered. So even though I have, he's put in the work. I give him credit. He does everything that

• 27:52Speaker 05

  I ask him to do. But I am still, I still, I'm stuck. I feel like my wheels are spinning. And I don't want to live, like, just worried all the time that this is going to be the day that he does something. And this is going to be the time that he's not telling me the truth. And I, I'm kind of looking for tools to kind of move forward.

• 28:14Dr. John Delony?

  You got it. I mean, you articulated that really great. How, how long ago did y'all get married?

• 28:23Speaker 05

  It'll be, we got married December 22.

• 28:26Dr. John Delony?

  22. Okay, so we're talking four years ago.

• 28:29Speaker 05

  Yes, sir.

• 28:29Dr. John Delony?

  Three and a half years ago. Okay. So Nate, what do you say, man?

• 28:33Speaker 06

  Okay, so yeah, in, in reality, Dr. John, my wife is not lying or making this up. In essence, um,

• 28:45Speaker 06

  Trying to talk to her about it. I looked a little at her. I was worried about

• 28:52Speaker 06

  worried about how she would take things. And then, you know, I let it all go and I gave her the information, but what she read resonates in her mind more than what I'm telling her. And I can completely understand that because, you know, the story I gave was not all of the details at first.

• 29:09Dr. John Delony?

  Sure.

• 29:10Speaker 06

  Um, and to kind of, you know, reiterate what's been going on. She has, you know, I, I've given her everything that she's asked for. She got access to my phone, you know, she knows the password to the computer. She can get on the computer and log into my Facebook because I don't hide anything.

• 29:26Dr. John Delony?

  Sure.

• 29:26Speaker 06

  But my biggest side effect, I guess of this is that, you know, when I, when I did go into detail, just it's, it's very similar to what she told you, but like one night is really two nights, right? And I did not, you know, I didn't rinse any of the story, but I, I, at the time I was really, I was really going through something that John, um, I will be honest about it. I was really dealing with the separation anxiety from my son who was there, but at the same time I wanted to be, I wanted to be faithful to my wife. I wanted to start something new and I really didn't have the mental tools or the emotional tools to know how to do that.

• 30:06Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 30:06Speaker 06

  Um, and then at that time, you know, trying to, and, and, and you've talked to many people and if you listen to the show, you know, quite often, you know, being a black man separated from my son is a huge deal to me, or was a huge deal to me. So I wanted to make sure that I let her down as easy as possible. Now, is any of the oral sex or any of that stuff right? No, completely, completely wrong. I was wrong for even thinking that she can get into that. But at that time, you know, I was really, I was really connected to my family, my, my home family, my mother, my father, my grandmother, and I completely blew off all of her advances because I was taking care of my family. I was taking care

• 30:47Speaker 06

  of my grandmother who is now passed away from, you know, from her age and conditions and whatnot. And, you know, I told my wife a hundred times, baby, I, I was very blessed to go home and my wife, my grandmother was not up burning down the house because she was literally cooking at, you know, 12:31.

• 31:03Dr. John Delony?

  Sure, sure, sure, sure.

• 31:04Speaker 06

  But anyway, you know, it's been deep like that.

• 31:07Dr. John Delony?

  So, and again, uh, man, I, the, you, you, you, you gave a good narrative there and I appreciate that. Here's what I want. Um, part of moving forward for everybody is gonna be like, I can feel it on you Nate. Like you want to be a good man, correct?

• 31:33Speaker 06

  That's right. Yes.

• 31:34Dr. John Delony?

  Okay. And

• 31:38Dr. John Delony?

  you want to be a good dad?

• 31:40Speaker 06

  I want to be the best dad I can be for sure.

• 31:44Dr. John Delony?

  And you want to be a good husband to Elaine?

• 31:47Speaker 06

  That's for sure. Yeah.

• 31:48Dr. John Delony?

  So I hear that in the way you told that story. I hear that. And you also want to be a good man with your responsibilities of your birth family, right? Grandma, mom, dad, all that, right?

• 32:01Speaker 06

  Right.

• 32:01Dr. John Delony?

  Okay. What I want you to do here is hear me say, I believe you a hundred percent. And there's all kinds of context and sideways stuff and things are gonna go, are gonna happen in our lives. It's gonna be life. But I want you to, like, as you're sitting, wherever you're sitting, if you're in your car, if you're in your office, wherever you are, I want you to take a big, deep breath and hold it for three, two, one, and let it out. I want you to drop your shoulders.

• 32:34Dr. John Delony?

  And I want you to fully own, I messed up.

• 32:40Speaker 06

  Yeah, I, I messed up.

• 32:42Dr. John Delony?

  Okay. Just, just, just right there. Just with a period at the end of that sentence. And here, here's why.

• 32:47Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 32:47Dr. John Delony?

  And we'll, I'll get into Elaine, but here's what I want you, this is you giving her a gift and you giving yourself a gift. Okay?

• 32:53Speaker 06

  Uh.

• 32:54Dr. John Delony?

  Because you taking full ownership, I screwed up, I messed up, I put myself in a position that wasn't good and there's a million things going on, but I did that thing. I made, at the end of the day, I made a choice. I made a few choices in a row that led to me becoming a guy that I never thought I would be. Right?

• 33:13Speaker 06

  Right.

• 33:14Dr. John Delony?

  If you continue to retell that story with, yeah, but this, and I had grandmother and I had kid, I had whatever, Elaine is always gonna be waiting for that next context where this might happen again.

• 33:28Dr. John Delony?

  And her, she will be scanning the environment 24/7, 365 for this dresser and that dresser. And what about this dresser? What about this dresser? Because those things, in the way you told that story first, those things were part of the reason why I messed up. I made a choice and I messed up. I'm gonna take full ownership of that. That's gonna allow there to be a period at the end of that sentence. You get what I'm saying?

• 33:50Speaker 06

  Yeah. And I, I wanna, I wanna add to it. The, the idea is that, that's what stopped me from everything is her and my family. And I thought about how bad it would be if, you know, all of it was, you know, done and

• 34:04Dr. John Delony?

  Just blew up. That's right.

• 34:05Speaker 06

  Out of control. Right. And so that's what stopped me from doing everything. But I still, yeah, a hundred percent. I was wrong though.

• 34:10Dr. John Delony?

  There you go. And I, and I applaud you for that. It's hard, it's hard for anybody just to say, yeah, I screwed that up. Period. Uh, Elaine, what happened in your first marriage?

• 34:21Speaker 05

  Oh gosh. Um, I was married to someone who was verbally abusive.

• 34:29Dr. John Delony?

  Okay.

• 34:29Speaker 05

  Um, refused to pay bills, refused to, no emotional support, just everything was my responsibility. Um, we were without lights. I couldn't get food on the table for my, my son. So I spent nine years in, I guess, survival mode, trying to figure things out, um, until I, I finally walked away from that situation.

• 34:50Dr. John Delony?

  Okay. Did he cheat on you?

• 34:53Speaker 05

  No, he didn't cheat on me.

• 34:54Dr. John Delony?

  He, he did. He wouldn't even get off the couch to pay bills, much less go find somebody else, huh?

• 34:58Speaker 05

  No. Right.

• 35:00Dr. John Delony?

  Uh, tell me about the home you grew up in?

• 35:02Speaker 05

  Um, I was a baby girl with three daughters and my father's incarcerated for a murder. He's been, I'm in prison all of my life. So I've never had a father. Um, I had a stepfather from about four to 15 and he left my mom for another woman. So we ended up losing everything. Lot of, lot of different things. Um, my mom died about four years ago, the same year I got married to Nathaniel. Um,

• 35:28Dr. John Delony?

  Okay.

• 35:28Speaker 05

  It was the year my mom died. So a lot, a lot of different stressors here and there.

• 35:33Dr. John Delony?

  So if there's still clear pathways back to each other,

• 35:40Dr. John Delony?

  this is gonna sound like a crazy word, but you're gonna have to practice feeling nervous, practice feeling scared, practice your body going, oh, oh, oh, see, see, see, he's seven minutes late. I told you.

• 35:57Dr. John Delony?

  And I've seen this done where people will put their fist in their chest and they'll say, ah, thank you for trying to take care of me. But he's coming home. He's a good man.

• 36:07Dr. John Delony?

  I've seen people, when they start to get that feeling, they just shoot a quick text and just say, I love you with, uh, three exclamation points. And he knows her heart rate's beating again and he's gonna send you a picture of his goofy smiling face back.

• 36:24Speaker 06

  Definitely goofy.

• 36:26Dr. John Delony?

  You get what I'm saying Elaine?

• 36:29Dr. John Delony?

  Here, instead of, instead of when your body tries to send you, think, think about train tracks in front of you. When your body tries to send you down the track that is, get out first, get out now, because this guy's gonna hurt you. If you take that avoidance route, you end up a shell of yourself inside your own skin. And you know the feeling I'm talking about, right?

• 36:52Speaker 05

  Right.

• 36:53Dr. John Delony?

  Where you're in your own home with, surrounded by kids, surrounded by a guy who likes you and loves you, but you feel like you're, uh, you feel like you're not even there.

• 37:04Dr. John Delony?

  You know the feeling I'm talking about?

• 37:06Speaker 05

  Yes, sir.

• 37:07Dr. John Delony?

  Okay. What I, what you feeling that and acknowledging that and saying, oh, no, no, no, thank you for trying to take, take care of me, but I'm driving and I wasn't safe then, but I'm safe now.

• 37:22Dr. John Delony?

  And what we're gonna do is we're gonna practice not getting in that other train, and we're gonna take the new train tracks. And here's my honest, I'm gonna be as honest as I can. This will require you to go all in and risk Nate breaking your heart again. That's the only way it works. I know, I know.

• 37:41Speaker 06

  I'm not gonna do it.

• 37:44Dr. John Delony?

  Nate, Kelly will find you. And, bro. I can be scary, but Kelly's diabolical. She listens to all those murder podcasts, man. And here's what I wanna build into y'all. Do y'all have iPhones?

• 37:58Speaker 06

  Unfortunately, well, I got it. Yeah, I got it. I got an Android.

• 38:02Dr. John Delony?

  Nate!

• 38:06Speaker 06

  It does all the things I wanted to do, Dr. John. I'm sorry.

• 38:10Dr. John Delony?

  All right, well, I'm gonna send it to Elaine. I'm gonna send you the Together app, okay? And here's what this app, it only will work on your iPhone. We're working on the Android stuff, but here's the deal. I want y'all to do it together. I'm gonna send it to you for free for a year. Okay?

• 38:23Speaker 05

  Oh, wow. Thank you so much.

• 38:25Dr. John Delony?

  Here's what it will do for you. It will give you a touch point every day where y'all look at each other. It'll send you a task to do. One thing that will bring you closer together. And here's the deal. I want you to make a regular practice in the morning before y'all leave for work of looking each other in the eye. One of you put your hands on each other's cheek. One of you put your hand behind the other person's neck. One of you hold hands, hug, whatever makes your shoulders drop. And I want you to ask the question, hey, how can I love you today? One thing.

• 38:57Speaker 06

  That would be me. I got you.

• 38:59Dr. John Delony?

  Right? What's one thing? And I want the other person to say it back. And what we're gonna do, Elaine, when you feel yourself starting to take off, when you feel yourself being like, oh, yeah, one time, you're gonna pull that ace of spades out of your back pocket, that one that protects you? That one that is always remembering what he did that one time? I'm gonna tear it up. I'm not gonna play that ace of spades anymore. We're on the same team. It's not you versus me anymore. It's you and me versus the whole world.

• 39:26Speaker 05

  Yes, sir.

• 39:27Dr. John Delony?

  But it's gonna be tiny little practices where we're gonna rebuild trust from the floor up. Y'all have done the big trust stuff. Let me see your phone, whatever. But I'm gonna tell you right now, and Nate, tell me if I'm wrong. It gets exhausting living in a surveillance state, right?

• 39:41Speaker 06

  Oh, yeah, it does.

• 39:42Dr. John Delony?

  Okay? And so Elaine, I want you to begin, it's been three years. Nate, have you cheated on her in three years?

• 39:49Speaker 06

  Absolutely not, no.

• 39:50Dr. John Delony?

  All right, I'm just putting it out there. I just want it said out in the world. So Elaine, I want you to begin practicing trust. And the trust I want you to practice is you feeling that awkwardness, that what's happening, that I don't know what's going on, and that exhaling like, oh, no, no, I trust him. Right? You're getting behind that feeling. And that's you putting yourself in the driver's seat of your own life. Here's a couple other homework assignments for you, Elaine, okay?

• 40:22Speaker 05

  Yes, sir.

• 40:22Dr. John Delony?

  I want you to write a letter to your dad that you're never gonna send. And I want you to read it out loud to Nate. And here's what I want you to put in that letter. I want you to let him know how pissed off you are that he left you.

• 40:37Speaker 06

  Wow, that's so crazy you said that, Dr. John. So crazy.

• 40:41Dr. John Delony?

  I want you to write, and here's the deal. You have two kids. You got three kids now. You wouldn't do-

• 40:48Speaker 05

  We actually have a boy and one on the way.

• 40:52Dr. John Delony?

  God almighty! Lead with that next time. Lead with that next time. But here's the thing. You would burn the world out for your kids.

• 41:05Speaker 05

  Absolutely.

• 41:06Dr. John Delony?

  And your dad left. And I want you to get that out of your body. Because his shadow haunts you. Because there's a four-year-old little girl in there saying, what was so bad about me? And then I want you to write a letter to your stepdad, who cheated on your mom. I want you to let him know what he did to your family, what he did to you. And I want you to read that out loud to Nate. I want y'all to share that together. And Nate, I don't want you to fix nothing. I don't want you to be like, yeah, and then. I want you just to listen and be with your wife in that dark, scary space of grief, okay?

• 41:46Speaker 06

  Agreed.

• 41:49Dr. John Delony?

  And then Elaine, here's what I want you, how I want you to end both of those letters, okay? I want you to write to both of those men who you're gonna become outside of their shadow. Just so you know, I'm gonna be the best damn mom who ever lived. I'm gonna be a ride-or-die wife. I'm gonna be a great, strong, brilliant, beautiful, smart woman who's gonna lock arms with this knucklehead Nate, and together, the two of us are gonna burn Elaine through the world. You get what I'm saying?

• 42:29Speaker 05

  Yes, sir.

• 42:30Dr. John Delony?

  Okay. We're gonna stop living in the shadows of these men that hurt your mom, that hurt you, that hurt your family, and we're gonna start living in the light, that is, what you and Nate decide to do next. And listen, this is not an intellectual exercise. This is your body learning it wasn't safe then, but it is safe now. And what that means is it's just gonna take time. And Nate, she's gonna need some more patience, okay?

• 43:06Speaker 06

  I got a lot for her. No, absolutely. The funny story is, she's a lot of those things you just told me right now. Everything you just said-

• 43:15Dr. John Delony?

  I know she is.

• 43:16Speaker 06

  At this very point in time, Dr.-

• 43:18Dr. John Delony?

  But Elaine, you're gonna understand what I'm saying when I say this. You're sprinting, but you got one of those, you know, like the NFL players that do the workouts and they got those parachutes behind them?

• 43:29Speaker 05

  Yes, sir.

• 43:30Dr. John Delony?

  That's how you do life right now. You work so hard to be a good mom, to be a good employee, to be a good wife, to be a good neighbor, to probably take care of your extended family. You do so much, but you got those demons hanging on to you. I don't want you to cut that parachute loose. You get what I'm saying?

• 43:57Speaker 05

  Yes, sir.

• 43:58Dr. John Delony?

  I want you to be free.

• 44:03Speaker 06

  I want you to be free too, babe.

• 44:05Dr. John Delony?

  Okay?

• 44:06Speaker 05

  Yes, sir.

• 44:07Dr. John Delony?

  All right, it's been a high, high honor to get to talk to both of you. Like, coming back from infidelity is always hard, but there comes a moment, right, when, oh, I have to quit holding on to this. I've gotta quit fantasizing about what actually happened that night. When that picture pops into my head, I'm gonna have another picture ready to go of him being the man that I know he is now. I'm not gonna meditate on that old image that pops in my head. Whenever I start to feel itchy and sketchy, and I don't know what's going on, and I need to check his Facebook, I'm gonna shoot him a text with an emoji that we've already talked about and let him know I'm feeling nervous, and he's gonna respond with a response we've already talked about, and let him know he's right there with me.

• 44:51Dr. John Delony?

  And when he gets home, that phone's gonna be put away. We're gonna hug for 60 seconds. Right when he walks in the door, we're gonna reconnect. And we're both gonna exhale. And we're gonna practice trust. Practice building this thing from the floor up. It's an honor to talk to both of you. High, high honor. Thank y'all so much for calling. Keep me updated on how things are going. And when y'all get pregnant with number six and number seven, we'll cheer you on then, too. We come back, a woman asks how to grieve her late husband while building a brand-new relationship. All right, I know it's uncomfortable. So many of you avoid talking about life insurance because it forces you to imagine things that nobody wants to think about. I get it. But here's what you need to remember. Life insurance is not really for you.

• 45:37Dr. John Delony?

  It's protection for the people you love and who love and count on you. I recommend term life insurance from Zander Insurance. When a family loses someone they depend on, the last thing they need is the financial chaos and wonder and confusion on top of the deep grief. People don't always realize how much they carry for their family every day. Childcare, meals, transportation, paying bills, holding everything together today and into the future. Term life insurance helps protect your family so they can focus on grieving and healing and not scrambling to figure out money. I've used Xander long before I had a show because I trust them. And Xander makes the process simple.

• 46:21Dr. John Delony?

  Their team shops top-rated companies for you. Xander works for you, not the insurance companies. And they help you understand your options in plain language, and they help you find the coverage that fits your family and your budget without pressure, without gimmicks, and without confusion. In these times, you don't need a sales pitch. You need protection for your loved ones, and Xander's got you. Go to Xander.com to get a quote today. That's Xander with a Z, dot com. All right, let's go out to Minneapolis, Minnesota, and talk to Kathy. Hey Kathy, what's up?

• 46:58Speaker 07

  Yeah, thanks for taking my call. Yeah, so my question is, yeah, how do I continue healing from loss of, like, my husband while working on building a new future with somebody new in my life?

• 47:16Dr. John Delony?

  Oh, man. What was your husband's name?

• 47:20Speaker 07

  Daniel.

• 47:20Dr. John Delony?

  Daniel. When did he pass?

• 47:23Speaker 07

  November of this last year.

• 47:26Dr. John Delony?

  Oh, my goodness. What happened?

• 47:29Speaker 07

  I came home and I found him overdosed. He had been relapsing for the past two and a half years prior to that. He'd been sober for eight years before that. And so we struggled for two and a half years with his on-and-off again use. And the relationship became abusive during his use. It never was like that prior to him using. I would have never thought that it would have became abusive.

• 48:11Speaker 07

  And, yeah, I had a couple divorce consultations, but was terrified to leave him because we have two children together, and I was terrified that he was going to die.

• 48:26Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah. Kathy, I'm sorry that happened.

• 48:32Speaker 07

  Yeah, me too.

• 48:33Dr. John Delony?

  How old are you?

• 48:36Speaker 07

  I'm 32.

• 48:40Speaker 07

  So we were together for 11 years and have two children together.

• 48:49Dr. John Delony?

  What's life been like since November?

• 48:53Speaker 07

  Um, it was really, really hard. Um, I, I also had 10 years of sobriety. I was working as an alcohol and drug counselor and with his death and everything surrounding what went on in the relationship, I also relapsed during that time. And so it was a pretty dark time. Um, but I'm back in recovery and rebuilding my life. I've been sober for a little over three months now. And, um, things, things have been feeling like they're getting back to a new kind of

• 49:32Speaker 07

  normal. Um, and also it's still, um, I'm still healing from the grief and, you know, I'm going in grief counseling and in a grief group and, um, my son, my older son went to a camp for kids around his age dealing with the loss of someone in their life. Um, and it's difficult because I feel like I've grieved the loss of our marriage kind of quite a while ago. Um, and also like I'm grieving him still and I'm, you know, we had a happy, loving marriage prior to

• 50:12Speaker 07

  his relapse and we never thought that he would have relapsed. We never thought our marriage turned into what it, what it did. We never dreamed of losing him. So.

• 50:25Dr. John Delony?

  Um, let me jump in here. So can I ask you a few hard questions?

• 50:29Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 50:30Dr. John Delony?

  Okay. And these are only questions because, uh, because I love you and I care about you and I want you to be well. Okay?

• 50:37Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 50:40Dr. John Delony?

  Do you still carry guilt that you should have made a phone call? You should have said a thing? You should have talked to him that one time? Shouldn't have got so mad? Do you still?

• 50:50Speaker 07

  Massive guilt.

• 50:51Dr. John Delony?

  Okay. Listen to me as, as directly as, as you can hear me.

• 50:57Dr. John Delony?

  Daniel's passing away was not your fault.

• 51:04Dr. John Delony?

  Okay?

• 51:06Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 51:06Dr. John Delony?

  You're a good wife and you're a good mom and you're a good partner.

• 51:14Dr. John Delony?

  It wasn't your fault.

• 51:15Speaker 07

  Um.

• 51:16Dr. John Delony?

  Okay?

• 51:18Speaker 07

  Thank you.

• 51:23Dr. John Delony?

  Do you feel guilty about relapsing?

• 51:27Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 51:28Dr. John Delony?

  Okay.

• 51:28Speaker 07

  Yeah. My children, uh, went to live with my parents, um, up until June. So they're newly back in my home and newly back with me. And, um, yeah, so.

• 51:43Dr. John Delony?

  So can I?

• 51:44Speaker 07

  It's a lot of guilt.

• 51:45Dr. John Delony?

  Listen to me.

• 51:50Dr. John Delony?

  A, a, a ride or die husband who's sick, who's struggling with addiction, who's fallen off a cliff and you're reaching down to grab him and you went over the side too with him for a season?

• 52:07Dr. John Delony?

  I just want to tell you, I'm glad you're back.

• 52:10Dr. John Delony?

  I'm glad you survived. I'm glad you're here.

• 52:15Speaker 07

  Thank you.

• 52:15Dr. John Delony?

  I'm glad you had parents that were there.

• 52:20Dr. John Delony?

  Okay? Would you go back and make different choices? Of course you would. But we're here and the kids are back home.

• 52:29Dr. John Delony?

  And there, I, I have like a, like a physical, like, eh, to the words new normal. I know it's like just everywhere. Nothing about what happens is normal. And there's that, you'll know what I'm talking about. There's that surreal feeling that your kids go into a camp for kids who lose parents. That's surreal, right?

• 52:48Speaker 07

  Right.

• 52:49Dr. John Delony?

  It's surreal when you're talking to the person at the funeral home. It's surreal when you go back to your job as an alcohol and drug counselor and your husband passed away from a drug overdose. Like it's a, everything feels like, uh, you're watching somebody else go through this. Right?

• 53:06Speaker 07

  Yeah. Yeah. It doesn't feel real sometimes.

• 53:09Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah. And in a weird way, your body's working perfectly because what it's trying to do is protect you from how bad that all hurts. And it gives you some space between, it's almost, but it feels out of body. And

• 53:23Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 53:24Dr. John Delony?

  over the next few months, over the next few years, it will begin to, you'll come back into your own skin and there will be light again, and the sun will come up again, and there'll be laughter again, and your kids will do goofy things again. And those dark black shadows will come back too.

• 53:44Dr. John Delony?

  Right?

• 53:46Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 53:48Dr. John Delony?

  Cause you were with Daniel for a long time.

• 53:50Speaker 07

  Mm-hmm.

• 53:51Dr. John Delony?

  Y'all were teenagers.

• 53:53Speaker 07

  Mm-hmm.

• 53:54Dr. John Delony?

  Right?

• 53:57Dr. John Delony?

  And so it's, it's, I don't think anything's gonna be normal. There's just gonna be regular life. You might look back in 10 years and say, this is normal now. But I, I wouldn't even, I wouldn't even put that pressure on yourself to quote unquote, be normal. You have permission to be out of sorts for a while.

• 54:20Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 54:20Dr. John Delony?

  You get what I'm saying?

• 54:22Speaker 07

  Yeah, I do. Thank you for saying that.

• 54:24Dr. John Delony?

  It's important when you're in deep grief to put some boundaries on yourself. So I won't, like, in your case especially, I won't use, period. I may pace around the neighborhood all night. I may watch old YouTube reruns of whatever all night, but I will not use.

• 54:41Speaker 07

  Mm-hmm.

• 54:41Dr. John Delony?

  Right? I will not have some rebound stranger in my house that put my kids at risk. Like, like you get to put what boundaries you want on this grief, right?

• 54:50Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 54:51Dr. John Delony?

  Um.

• 54:54Dr. John Delony?

  So tell me about, uh, have you met somebody new? Tell me about this, what you're thinking about looking forward? Are you, are you just looking down and saying, I don't want to be alone the rest of my life, but I don't even know where to start?

• 55:03Speaker 07

  Yeah. Yeah. No, I, I have met somebody new and just kind of, um, casually started, um, dating this person and started to, started to carry, care for them. Um, at the same time, like I feel like there's massive guards up for me and, you know, um, and that's like, I'm not just gonna heal with grief, like instantly or something, or somebody's going to replace, uh, Daniel. And also it's, um, like, I wanna, I wanna be able to open myself up for, um,

• 55:48Speaker 07

  moving forward, not, not like forgetting what happened or like, you know, um, we keep, uh, Daniel's, um, life very alive in our home. Talk about him all the time with my kids and, um,

• 56:06Dr. John Delony?

  Your, your kids are half him.

• 56:08Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 56:09Dr. John Delony?

  Right? So he's alive in your house, whether you get rid of all those pictures or not?

• 56:14Dr. John Delony?

  Those kids are half him.

• 56:16Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 56:17Dr. John Delony?

  And so my caution to you would be to go very, very slow. At the same time, I understand the abject, I mean, I've never lived it, but I, I intellectually understand. I've sat with so many people over the years. I get the black hole of loneliness.

• 56:33Speaker 07

  Right.

• 56:34Dr. John Delony?

  Just the, I mean, being with someone from 18 to 32, like there's, that's, those are really formative years that you, the anchors get, start to become one anchor, right? And suddenly to have that thing ripped out, it's like you just woke up and you went for a run and you were missing a left leg and a left arm and a left part of your, of your heart, right?

• 56:55Speaker 07

  Absolutely.

• 56:56Dr. John Delony?

  Part of you is gone and the temptation is just to go grab anybody, any, and try to, try to use them as a crotch so I can get back to running as I used to. And so

• 57:06Speaker 07

  Exactly.

• 57:07Dr. John Delony?

  you're not crazy for wanting companionship? You're not crazy for going on dates? I don't think you're a bad person. Like, take all that guilt and nonsense out. Okay? What I want to caution you on is, like, I, I don't think grief is something you get over.

• 57:21Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 57:22Dr. John Delony?

  It's something that your life expands around, but this, this gap will be there.

• 57:29Speaker 07

  Mm-hmm.

• 57:30Dr. John Delony?

  And as your kids get older and they start to look like him or have weird similarities to him or deal with stress like he did, like he'll, he's a part of you. And whoever chooses to be your romantic partner and marry you in the future, they're, they're gonna know that about you. You had this other life and they're gonna say, I still choose you.

• 57:50Speaker 07

  Right.

• 57:50Dr. John Delony?

  Right? But I want you, if you were my sister, if you were my, like, sister-in-law, if you were one of my nieces, I would tell you, the same thing I'm gonna tell, like, I would tell you, I want you to be at peace, recognize I've got my, both of my feet on the ground and I don't need somebody else to come in and lean on in this moment.

• 58:10Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 58:11Dr. John Delony?

  And that means you're gonna have to have some girlfriends in your life. You're gonna have to go do silly things. You're gonna have to have fun. You're gonna have to have a group of women that you do life with and get some, get some breath back in your lungs and it just takes time.

• 58:23Speaker 07

  Mm-hmm. Yeah. And I have a, I'm lucky to have a group of really good recovery friends who, you know, I can easily say helped save my life during

• 58:36Dr. John Delony?

  Perfect.

• 58:36Speaker 07

  my tens of years. And so

• 58:38Dr. John Delony?

  Do you have any friends outside of the recovery community?

• 58:43Speaker 07

  I have a few, but, um, a lot of my friends are people that are in long-term recovery that have been my friends for a decade. Um.

• 58:54Speaker 07

  Um.

• 58:56Dr. John Delony?

  And I, I tell anybody that's got a homogeneous group, which is a nerd, nerd way of saying like, if you're a policeman or you're a lawyer or you're a physician, you end up only hanging out with physicians or lawyers or doctors, right? And that becomes kind of what you talk about and it kind of becomes your world. And I, I would say one of the greatest blessings of my life is some of my closest friends, one's a banker and one works in HVAC and one works in, is a stand-up comic. Like they do different things in their life. And so when we get together, we talk about bigger things, not just those things. You get what I'm saying? And, and with, in recovery group, everyone's doing different jobs and things like that.

• 59:35Speaker 07

  Mm-hmm.

• 59:35Dr. John Delony?

  But I, I want you to begin to identify a bigger picture of yourself than just, I'm in recovery.

• 59:43Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 59:44Dr. John Delony?

  That's, that's one of the things you do. That's one of your identities, one of the pieces of your life, but you're bigger than that. You're, you're also an incredible mom who hung in there.

• 59:55Speaker 07

  Yeah, thank you.

• 59:57Dr. John Delony?

  You made it. So here's a couple of things I want you to do, okay? I want you to write Daniel a letter.

• 1:00:05Dr. John Delony?

  And I want you to ask two or three or four of your closest friends in recovery, maybe even those that didn't know Daniel, if you can read it and share it with them. As David Kessler says, grief demands a witness. That's it. It's a strange alchemy, but it's how healing happens. It doesn't happen by yourself in your head.

• 1:00:25Speaker 07

  Mm hmm.

• 1:00:25Dr. John Delony?

  Okay.

• 1:00:26Speaker 07

  I like that.

• 1:00:26Dr. John Delony?

  And here's what I want you to write in this letter, three parts of it, okay? I want you to write, number one, about some of your memories of the greatest times y'all had together, and how much you miss him. Silly things, funny things, goofy things, dumb things, the way he put his socks on the wrong way, or whatever, okay? Very specific things that you remember. The second part of this letter, I want you to let him know how pissed off you are that he's gone.

• 1:00:57Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 1:00:58Dr. John Delony?

  The anger, the rage, how dare you? You left us, okay?

• 1:01:04Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 1:01:05Dr. John Delony?

  You're not a bad friend, you're not a bad wife, your anger is right. Okay?

• 1:01:11Speaker 07

  Thank you for saying that.

• 1:01:14Dr. John Delony?

  I would think, if you're not angry, you should probably see a professional therapist ASAP, right? You should be angry. And here's the third part, and it's critically important. I want you to let Daniel know who you are going to be.

• 1:01:31Speaker 07

  It's been so hard to look forward to the future.

• 1:01:34Dr. John Delony?

  I know, that's why I want you to write it down. Your body needs you to write it down. And as specific as you can, not platitudes, not stuff you'd sew on a pillow or see at home hobby lobby or whatever. Here's the kind of mom I'm gonna be to our kids. I'm gonna go be one of those cheesy moms who, da, da, da. I'm going to love these kids really well. I'm gonna work two jobs if I have to, so that we can, fill in the blank. But it's gonna orient your entire body, your biology,

• 1:02:18Dr. John Delony?

  not from what was, but what is going to be. Okay? It's that scary question, what am I gonna do next?

• 1:02:29Speaker 07

  Yeah, I think that's what I'm struggling with.

• 1:02:31Dr. John Delony?

  Okay, instead of saying, what am I gonna do next? What kind of job am I gonna have? Where am I gonna live? I want you to start with, who am I gonna be? And often, starting with identity first, the action steps, reverse engineer out of that pretty simply.

• 1:02:52Dr. John Delony?

  And I want you to let Daniel know that, and then I want you to read it out loud to a few friends.

• 1:02:56Speaker 07

  Okay.

• 1:02:57Dr. John Delony?

  Okay, share it with them. Share it in your grief counseling group.

• 1:03:01Speaker 07

  Okay.

• 1:03:02Dr. John Delony?

  Thank you so, so much. Pick up David Kessler's book, Finding Meaning. It's one of the most powerful, extraordinary books on grief I've ever read in my life. It's a worthy read for anybody who's going through loss. Pick that up and start with that letter. And then keep in recovery groups and keep going to your grief groups and senior counselor. I'm proud of you. You've got a long road ahead of you. But I think you're up for it. We'll be right back. This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. All right, so my friends at BetterHelp just released their annual State of Stigma Report, which is a giant report full of tons of data about the mental and emotional state of many folks across the world.

• 1:03:46Dr. John Delony?

  And listen, it looks at data points, it looks at why people avoid getting help for their mental health. And here's a data point that stood out when I read it. More than three out of four Americans reported anxiety or depression symptoms in the previous two weeks. If that's you, and you're carrying stress, anxiety symptoms, or depression symptoms, listen, just talking with someone can help more than you realize. For that, I recommend BetterHelp. BetterHelp is an online therapy platform that matches you with one of their 30,000-plus licensed therapists based on your goals and preferences. It's easy and it's super convenient. You can message your therapist and schedule sessions right in the platform. And if the first therapist you're matched with isn't the right fit, you can switch at any time for no extra cost.

• 1:04:31Dr. John Delony?

  Listen, don't let stigma stand in the way of you getting the help you need. Visit betterhelp.com/doloney and get 10% off. That's betterhelp, H E L P, dot com slash doloney. All right, Kelly, am I the problem? Go for it.

• 1:04:49Speaker 02

  All right, so this is from Sky in Payson, Utah. I don't know. And she writes.

• 1:04:58Dr. John Delony?

  I'm just like, oh, no.

• 1:05:00Speaker 02

  Well, I don't know where Payson, Utah is.

• 1:05:02Dr. John Delony?

  Is it Passan?

• 1:05:03Speaker 02

  Could be. Might not be, I don't know. She's in Utah.

• 1:05:09Dr. John Delony?

  There we go.

• 1:05:09Speaker 02

  And she writes, "My eight-year-old son and 11-year-old daughter love earning money with their lemonade stands that they do every summer, and they are learning to save for things they want. However, my husband believes that this is indicating that they are fixated on material things, and this bothers him. He wants them to save their money, and he believes they are not learning any valuable lessons if all they do is spend on frivolous things, which to him is basically everything, anything that a child would want to spend their money on. I still let them do the lemonade stands, and I let them spend their money on anything within a few limits, because I believe that they are learning a lot more than just how to get what they want. Am I the problem?"

• 1:05:47Dr. John Delony?

  Read the beginning of that one time back. I seem to make sure before I blow my top.

• 1:05:52Speaker 02

  "My eight-year-old son and 11-year-old daughter love earning money with their lemonade stands that they do every summer, and they are learning to save up for things that they want. However, my husband believes that this indicates that they are just fixated on material things, and this bothers him."

• 1:06:07Dr. John Delony?

  Okay, yeah, we're good there. So why can't people just let good things happen? Like, I, why, Kelly? Like this show, for instance, why can't you just let it happen sometimes?

• 1:06:30Speaker 02

  Because I have a mortgage to pay and children to feed, and if I just let you be you, none of those things will happen, because we'll all be out of a job.

• 1:06:41Dr. John Delony?

  So here's the thing, you can spend money, you can save money, you can give away money, and you can earn money. That's the four things you can do. I think it's important for kids to, early, early on, modeled by their parents first, learn generosity, learn to give money away, even if it's a quarter, even if it's a dollar. Part of what you earn is we give back. And I'll let y'all pick whatever y'all want to give to, but that's an important part of it. The other part of it is, those kids are doing what he's accusing them of not doing, which is saving money. They're earning money, which is awesome, that eight and 11-year-old understands already that money didn't just appear,

• 1:07:25Dr. John Delony?

  and they're out there earning it. And they have their eye on a Lego set, on a new whatever, and they save up to go get that thing. This is the perfect time for your eight and 11-year-old to save up money, delay gratification, wait, and then buy something incredibly stupid. This is the moment. Because you know what? They will do that in their life. I'd rather them do it now than when I was 21 and I bought the biggest, dumbest truck I could find, because I was, there's a bunch of reasons why I bought that. Most of them are scientific. But I, that was a bad thing, right? It was dumb. I wish at eight and 11, I had that lived experience of,

• 1:08:07Dr. John Delony?

  oh, I saved up for four weeks to buy this one plastic trinket, and that's not a good use. And so when they want to buy the next thing, that's when you have those lessons, like, hey, the last three things you bought are, either we gave them away, or they're in the garbage or whatever. This is a perfect thing. As the kid gets to be 12, or 13, or 14, in my house, that's when we started talking with my son about, you're gonna have a car. And so I started, I think, at 12 or 13, here's how much cars cost, and here's what I'm gonna contribute, and you're on your own after that. And also, when you turn 16, I'm not gonna be your taxi either. And so they started a small car fund that got over the next two, three, four years.

• 1:08:51Dr. John Delony?

  And so all to say is, man, eight and 11, dude, let them go out there and earn some money, let them save it up, and let them buy something stupid. And let them learn the weight of what that feels like. And let them also learn the weight of, I earned it and I bought it. That's a cool feeling for a kid to learn, right? What do you think?

• 1:09:12Speaker 02

  I agree with you. I think he's just overthinking it a little bit. And he's just desperate to teach them this very important lesson that he's just overthinking a bit at this point. But I also see, I agree with you, go ahead and teach them how to give. You know, and then you're gonna start teaching them how to save. But they're on the right road, the fact that, yeah.

• 1:09:35Dr. John Delony?

  They're so on the right road, yeah.

• 1:09:37Speaker 02

  And it's okay to breathe for a minute. And, you know, I'm sure, I'm trying to give him the benefit of the doubt a little bit, that he's like, oh, no, I don't want to raise materialistic children.

• 1:09:46Dr. John Delony?

  I get that, I know, I'm being dramatic today, I'm tired, but.

• 1:09:49Speaker 02

  But you're not, they are learning a lot in this, with this, a lot more than a lot of kids their age.

• 1:09:55Dr. John Delony?

  So many more kids their age, yes.

• 1:09:58Speaker 02

  So I think that he probably just, he has a fear of raising greedy kids. But the fact that they're wanting to do it themselves, they're doing it themselves and not begging you for it, that's a huge win.

• 1:10:07Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:08Speaker 02

  Take the win.

• 1:10:09Dr. John Delony?

  Yes, take, yes, take the win. And this is an important thing for all parents. If you're 38 and you have a 12-year-old, your values, you should be putting that in a Roth 401K, and you should be, that isn't the values of an eight-year-old. And so trying to impose that on top of an eight-year-old, it doesn't make any sense in their head. So let's practice these things in small increments until you can begin to paint a bigger picture. And it happens over time. Your kids are great. And yes, you're right, Kelly, good call out. Dad's probably a great guy, just doesn't want a spoiled brat kid. I totally get that. From my vantage point, the families I work with, and the kids I, your kids are way ahead of the game. So let them model your generosity, require them to give some of that money away,

• 1:10:54Dr. John Delony?

  and make them work towards things and save it. The policy we use in my house is 401K John, or 401 John. Like, I'll match half of whatever you want to buy. I'll pay for half of it. And whether that was a car, or whether that was a little goofy thing, unless it's just so dumb, I'm like, nope, that one's all you, dude. And occasionally, my son has never done that, but my daughter's like, I'm gonna buy it anyway. Okay, knock your lights out. But good on you for having kids who are little entrepreneurs. We need a lot of those these days. Love you guys, bye.