Pod Insights The Ancients The Sons of Attila the Hun About this episode The year is 453 AD. The most feared warlord in Europe - Attila the Hun - lies dead on his wedding night. But what happened next plunged his vast empire into bloody chaos.
In this episode of The Ancients, Tristan Hughes is joined by Professor Hyun Jin Kim to uncover the dramatic story of Attila’s heirs and the fall of the Huns. From bitter rivalries between Attila’s sons to the Gothic kings who rose to challenge them, discover how the mighty Hunnic Empire collapsed almost overnight — a saga of ambition, betrayal, and the violent unravelling of one of history’s most feared powers.
MORE
Attila the Hun: Scourge of God https://open.spotify.com/episode/7y5w7yyVOqwYxvqHAAfthi?si=PtzE0HlhTs-pS6IKeq56pg
The White Huns https://open.spotify.com/episode/7urNQxKoWuDLdxs5WUlm0u?si=ChgT_T09TqWbPKw_xZ4svw
Presented by Tristan Hughes. Audio editor is Tim Arstall, the producer is Joseph Knight. The senior producer is Anne-Marie Luff.
All music courtesy of Epidemic Sounds
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Transcript Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:00 Tristan Hughes? Ever wondered why the Romans were defeated in the Teutoburg Forest? What secrets lie buried in prehistoric Ireland? Or what made Alexander truly great? With a subscription to History Hit, you can explore our ancient past alongside the world's leading historians and archaeologists. You'll also unlock hundreds of hours of original documentaries with a brand new release every single week, covering everything from the ancient world to World War II. Just visit historyhit.com/subscribe. Hey guys, I hope you're doing well. I'd expect that most, if not all of you, will have heard of the name Attila the Hun. But what about what followed his death? The demise of this titanic figure? That is what we're covering today.
0:44 Tristan Hughes? The story of the sons of Attila, the fall of the Huns. Now, I love this topic because I'm pretty obsessed with the stories of what happened after the deaths of titanic figures, warlords from ancient history, the death of Alexander the Great, for instance. And usually the answer is chaos and turmoil. And the story of what happened after Attila's death is no different. It was fascinating to learn about this often overshadowed but extraordinary part of the story of the Huns. I really do hope you enjoy. Our guest is the brilliant returning Professor Hyun Jin Kim from the University of Melbourne. Let's go.
1:30 Tristan Hughes? In 453 AD, one of the titanic figures of late antiquity died of a nosebleed while having sex with his newest wife on their wedding night. Or so the story goes. That man was the so-called scourge of God, the bane of Rome, Attila, ruler of the Hunnic Empire. It was Attila, or Attila, who oversaw the zenith of the Huns' expansion into Europe as far as the Baltic Sea. He left an empire that was formidable, but also was fragile. The recipe for chaos on an imperial scale. This is the often overlooked story of what happened to the Huns after Attila's
2:14 Tristan Hughes? death, when his sons struggled to retain control and powerful Gothic chieftains challenged their rule. This is the story of the fall of the Huns, of the Sons of Attila, with our guest, Professor Hyun Jin Kim. Hyun Jin, it's great to have you back on the podcast.
2:36 Speaker 01 Thank you for inviting me.
2:37 Tristan Hughes? You're more than welcome. And this time, we've done the White Huns, we've done Attila the Hun, but now we're exploring what happens in the West following the death of Attila and his sons, because this is another extraordinary part of the Hun story that is overlooked.
2:52 Speaker 01 Indeed. So unfortunately, because we are so dependent on a single source, the Gothic historian Jordana is, for those who have not read Jordana is, this seems like a fairy tale that has never been told before, but yes, it is actually a fascinating story, which I'd love to share with you today.
3:10 Tristan Hughes? So set the scene first of all, when are we talking with Attila and how prominent were the Huns in Europe at the time of his reign?
3:17 Speaker 01 So at the time of Asher's death, the Honeck Empire dwarfed in size the Roman Empire at its height. So it stretched from central Gaul, central France, to the Volga River, from Scandinavia to territory south of the Danube River. Therefore, it had basically united much of continental Europe. And Asher was, without any doubts, the most powerful ruler, certainly in Europe at the time, and his empire had basically succeeded in unifying all of what the Romans referred to as barbaricum, the land inhabited by anybody who was not a Roman. And so the Huns would assert that Asher the Hun ruled over all of Scythia and Germania,
4:01 Speaker 01 so the territory that is ruled by Germanic tribes and also the Scythian and Sarmian tribes to the east. And they also claimed that he had subjugated the two Roman empires, so the Western Roman Empire and the Eastern Roman Empire, to the payment of tribute. So that is the situation. At the time of Attila's death in four hundred and fifty-three A D.
4:25 Tristan Hughes? And what do we know about the power structure of Attila's empire? Just before he dies, what sort of empire should we be imagining and how it's run?
4:34 Speaker 01 It is a quasi feudal empire. As I said repeatedly in the past, I really do hesitate to use the word feudal, but that is really the best way to describe it. It is an empire that is hierarchical. It is, of course, presided over by the high king or the emperor, who of course was Attila. And then under him, there are a hierarchy of kings. The highest ranking king is the king of the east, who is Elak, his eldest son and crown prince. And then there is, of course, the western king, who is Oebarsius, his uncle. And under those eastern and western kings, a series of sub-kings. So that is the structure of the empire. And at the time of Attila's death, what had happened was that the balance of power had shifted.
5:18 Speaker 01 In the traditional Hunnic empire of the east, while the Huns still were in Central Asia and in Mongolia, the eastern princes always outranked the western princes. So political power almost always lay with the eastern kings. And the western kings were considered to be their vassals or subordinates, viceroy's. But because Attila led a coup against the previous emperor of the Huns, Blader, his brother, who presided over the east, and because he was dependent upon the troops that he raised from the west. In fact, the Romans even referred to him as the Gepid Hun, because the Gepids were his main thief. By the time that Attila died, the western princes were just as powerful as those in the east.
6:03 Speaker 01 And that, of course, would result in the long civil wars that followed Attila's death. First, the usurpation, that of course upset the established Hunnic political order and created many, many disaffected and dissatisfied Hunnic royals who were just waiting for the opportunity to pounce as soon as Attila was gone. And the fact that the east could no longer overpower the west as easily as it had done before.
6:27 Tristan Hughes? Xinjin, you also mentioned in passing there the Gepids. So they're a tribe in, what is today, is it Hungary or Czechoslovakia or that area?
6:36 Speaker 01 Yes, so they were originally based in Poland, modern Poland. But then, of course, after they were conquered by the Huns, they were relocated to what is now Romania and Hungary. Because, of course, Ashlet made that area, eastern Hungary, his, the, the center of his empire. He moved the, the Hunnic capital from somewhere in Ukraine to Hungary. And so the Gepits became very, very important. They became literally the geographical center of the Hunnic empire. And that is why Ashlet is referred to as a Gepet-Hun.
7:08 Tristan Hughes? So is there a sense that because Attila was such a strong individual, that he was able to almost contain growing anti-Western lord favoritism? If you know what I mean. Attila's preference for lords in the West, he was able to contain that. But when he dies, that resentment, particularly from the lords who ruled further east, who had been used to that traditional role where they had more power, that resentment does explode because Attila is no longer there to contain it?
7:42 Speaker 01 Yes, exactly. That's exactly what happens. So when Ashlet suddenly dies, after a wedding ceremony that went a bit auri, I suppose, the eastern princes decide to elevate to the throne Elak, the crown prince, as was his right, because he is the king of the, the east. He was the first in line to the succession. And the eastern princes, represented by the Akkad-Ziri Confederation, think that this is a done deal. Elak should succeed his father as emperor or high king. But the western princes, who have been empowered by Ashlet, refused to comply. And so Aldaric, who is the king of the Gepits. Now, we have to first understand who these people are.
8:25 Speaker 01 According to Jordanes, Aldaric, Valamer, and all the other kings that emerged after the supposed collapse of the Hunnic empire, according to Jordanes, are Germanic, ethnic Germanic princes. But if you look carefully at who these people are, they're not ethnically Germanic kings. They are actually Hunnic princes who are Competing with each other in a succession crisis, who want to elevate their favorite candidate to the throne. So Aldaric has a grandson called Mondo, who is also Attila's grandson. So in other words, Aldaric was part of the Honeck royal family. His daughter had married one of Attila's sons called Gizmos,
9:08 Speaker 01 and they had a son called Mondo, who later becomes king of the Gepids. And so the Gepid royal family and the ruling elite were very Honeck, and they remained so long after the so-called demise of the Huns. And so Aldaric presumably wanted to raise to the throne his son-in-law, Gizmos. And so he forms a coalition of Western princes in order to elevate this guy to the throne. And the Eastern princes, of course, had their candidate, Elak, who was the eldest son of Attila. And this then led to this colossal battle at Nido. One year after Attila's death, these two warring factions couldn't sort it out via diplomacy, so they went to war.
9:49 Tristan Hughes? And before we get to the what happens in that war, you mentioned there a figure who seems key to this story, or at least our understanding of this story, which is this figure of Jordanes. Now, who was he, Hyun Jin? And why is he so important for this story?
10:04 Speaker 01 Yes, Jordanes is an ethnic Goth who later worked for the Eastern Romans. His family became part of the Eastern Roman establishment. And he wrote a history called the Kesica, History of the Goths. And because he is an ethnic Goth, he goes out of his way to rewrite history in favor of his Goths. And therein lies the problem. The primary narrative that recounted the history of the dissolution of the Honeck Empire, Priscus's history, is largely lost. It only survives in fragments. And of course Jordanes consulted that history, but he rewrote that history and all the other information that he had available to him so that his Goths would appear to be the most preeminent and the greatest tribe ever.
10:48 Speaker 01 And so everybody loses to the Goths in Jordanes's narrative. But what is weird is that the Goths always Win, but at the end of it, either their king dies or they are expelled entirely from the territory that they ruled over and have to take refuge in Roman territory in Macedonia and in Italy. So whatever Jordana says, you have to take with a heavy grain of salt because he rewrites history in ways that is difficult to fathom. Jordana is writing a hundred years after the events that he purports to describe. And so he's dependent on earlier sources and some of those sources survive in fragments.
11:28 Speaker 01 And so when we compare those sources with Jordana, then we get closer to the truth.
11:34 Tristan Hughes? I must ask another question before we continue with this civil war narrative, which is you did also mention the death of Attila. And it always seems quite an interesting one, the actual death of Attila. You mentioned it was at a party or too much drink. I mean, how did he die? Is it a blood clot or something like that?
11:51 Speaker 01 Yes, he had a nosebleed and
11:53 Tristan Hughes? It's a nosebleed.
11:54 Speaker 01 So he was, he had too much wine, he was drunk and he had a new wife. So he overexerted himself. Well, this is according to Priscus, right? This is according to, these are according to the Romans, engaged in malicious gossip, but supposedly he was drunk and he had a nosebleed and it suffocated him. And he died in this very inglorious fashion. So the greatest king on the continent died of a nosebleed that's clogged his throat. He choked on his own blood, that's what Priscus tells us. And this was divine intervention, right? Because Attila was about to re-invade the Eastern Roman Empire, which had refused to pay tribute. And so the Roman emperor was very concerned that this invasion was about to happen. And then he saw a dream said by God.
12:39 Speaker 01 In it, the Honeck bow was broken. And this was a sign from heaven telling the pious emperor that God would smite the Huns himself. And so it was not the power of Roman arms, but divine retribution that felled Attila and destroyed the Huns. That is the sort of the narrative that Priscus constructs and that is the light of thought that he is pushing.
12:59 Tristan Hughes? And do we have any idea what Attila thought about his eldest son Elak or Ilak? Is there any information that survives about that?
13:08 Speaker 01 Yes, actually, Priscus, who was a Roman ambassador and who had visited the court of Ashtala, had actually met Ashtala himself, tells us that Ashtala was very, very distant towards all of his other sons and treated them as if they were garbage. Now, whether we should believe that or not is a different question, but he says that his shamans, Ashtala's shamans, had told Ashtala that his race would fall after his death, but would be completely revived by Eunuch, the youngest of his sons. And so, Priscus noticed how Ashtala treated Eunuch with the greatest, you know, amount of attention, but he would ignore all of his other sons.
13:49 Speaker 01 And that, you know, according to Priscus, was because of this prophecy that Eunuch would revive Ashtala's dynasty after his other incompetent sons would presumably ruin it.
13:58 Tristan Hughes? Including Ilac, his eldest son, which is quite something.
14:00 Speaker 01 Yes, exactly. Who is the successor. Now, of course, we cannot believe this story because Priscus had the benefit of hindsight. He knew that eventually, the final victor to emerge from the civil wars, the guy who would end up being the last man standing was Eunuch. He has the benefit of hindsight and he's therefore creating this narrative to make it seem as though Ashtala had always favored Eunuch, does probably, it's just wishful thinking.
14:26 Tristan Hughes? Well, let's go back to the story in regards to after Attila's death. So we've already highlighted, you know, this, this civil war that breaks out the Western kings and the Gepids, led by the figure of Arderic. And then on the other side, you have Attila's successor, his eldest son Ilac, and the Akatsiri in the east. And then finally, it's only a couple of years after Attila's death, these two sides come to blows. What do we know, Hyunjin? What do we know about this civil war and the campaign?
14:58 Speaker 01 Yes, we know very little about the battle itself because Jordana has completely messed up the narrative. His focus is solely on the Goths, so he doesn't really care that much about what, what else is happening. And his main purpose is to create a narrative in which his Goths are extricated from Honeck rule as soon as possible. So he claims that during this battle, the Ostrogoths, the Eastern Goths, under their king Valimer, was fighting on the side of Algaric. So together with the Gappids, they defeated the Huns and killed the Honeycrown Prince Elak, and that was the end of it. The Goths were finally liberated. And then Elak's younger brother, Dengijic, another of Attila's sons,
15:41 Speaker 01 about a year later, decided to reclaim his slaves, the Goths, right? So he supposedly invaded Gothic territory, and Valimer, without any aid from his other brothers, managed to defeat him and sent him packing. And that was the great liberation of the Gothic people. When Valimer defeated Dengijic, Theodoric the Great, the later great Gothic king of Italy, was born to Thudimer, who is the younger brother of Valimer. So the liberation of the Goths coincided with the birth of the greatest of all Gothic kings, Theodoric the Great. So he creates this very neat narrative, which seems to suggest that the Goths extricated themselves from Hunnig rule in about 455 or 456 AD.
16:26 Speaker 01 But all evidence would point in the opposite direction. Because Giordano himself lets slip a piece of information that is very puzzling. He says that an earlier Gothic king called Thorismut was killed while fighting the Gappids. Ah, okay. So, and later medieval Germanic tradition has the Goths fighting for Elak at the Battle of Nedaho, not on the other side. And so what is going on? Well, in order to make sense of what is happening, we have to understand the person of Valimer, this king of the Ostrogoths that supposedly led the Goths at the Battle of Nedaho. Now, at the Battle of Nedaho, Valimer was not yet the ruler of the Goths.
17:11 Speaker 01 Giordano says that there was a king called Balumber in the middle of the 4th century. And he claims that this king was a Hun king, was a Hunnig king, and he was the one who subdued the Goths in the middle of the 4th century. And then he talks about Valimer in the middle of the 5th century and claims that this is an entirely Gothic king descending from... The original Ostrogothic kings who ruled prior to the Honeck conquest. But via a very rigorous analysis of the sources, Peter Heather has been able to determine that Balamber and Valimer are one and the same. They are the same fifth century, mid-fifth century individual.
17:53 Speaker 01 In other words, Jordanes has created a phantom Honeck king in the middle of the fourth century in order to make his Gothic dynasty, the Amal dynasty, Gothic and not Honeck. So since Balamber and Valimer are the same person, what does that mean? That means that Valimer, who lived in the middle of the fifth century, was not a Gothic king. He was a Honeck king who was ruling over the Goths. And so in order to obfuscate that reality, Jordanes separates that single king and makes him into a Honeck king who supposedly lived in the middle of the fourth century and a Gothic king who supposedly lived in the middle of the fifth century.
18:38 Speaker 01 And the reason why we know this to be the case is because Balamber kills a guy called Vinitharius. That name means literally Wendy fighter or Slav fighter. Now, we know for a fact that there were no Slavs in southern Ukraine or Romania, where the Goths were situated at the time in the middle of the fourth century. The introduction of the Slavs into this region was something that happened after the middle of the fifth century. So if Vinitharius, this Wendy fighting king, Slav fighting king, was killed by Balamber, that could not have happened in the middle of the fourth century. It had to happen in the middle of the fifth century. Strangely enough, Jordanes claims that this Vinitharius
19:23 Speaker 01 was the grandfather, the paternal grandfather of Valimer. But we've just told you that Balamber killed Vinitharius. So how could Valimer be the grandson of the person that he's murdered or killed in battle? Well, it's because Valimer married the granddaughter.
19:43 Speaker 01 Of Vennetharius. So after he defeated Vennetharius, he married a princess called Vadamerka. And so Vennetharius was the Gothic grandfather-in-law of Volmer and not his paternal grandfather. And we know this to be the case because there is a mal family tree or, you know, sort of dynastic king list that predates the list given by Jordana's. And in that earlier list, Vennetharius and Valider Brans, who is his father, is totally missing. So in other words, he just inserted these Gothic kings into the ancestry in order to make these honey kings appear Gothic. So he does this sort of thing all over the place. And fortunately, we do have other sources that we can sort of,
20:28 Speaker 01 with which we can cross-examine Jordana's account and figure out what on earth he's trying to do. So that's basically what's happening.
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21:45 Tristan Hughes? Xinjin, I think your explanation there highlights just how confusing Giordano's makes it to try and sort out what the hell is happening with the Hunnic Empire and these kingdoms in the West in these years following Attila's death. So if the bare bones is Elac is defeated and killed at the Battle of Nedeol, and so after that point, the official Hunnic Empire at that time, does it recede? And do you get people like Valimyr and Arderic, although they still have links to the Huns, do they also consider themselves independent kings? And the actual size of the Hunnic Empire has decreased?
22:22 Speaker 01 That is the thing, right? So that is what Giordano's wants us to think. That's it completely broke up after this battle and everybody is independent. But notice how Valimyr is called the King of the Huns. None of these Hunnic princes actually thought that the Hunnic Empire dissolved and all of them were trying to put it back together. So the civil war continues and in fact, Valimyr remains affiliated with the sons of Attila until at least the early 460s, when he concludes an alliance with Eastern Romans and aims for the Hunnic throne himself. That is why he's called the King of the Huns when in fact, the only sort of group that he ruled over were probably some Goths and some Sarmatians.
23:05 Speaker 01 But he makes his bid for the throne in the 260s when he feels that he's powerful enough. And he seems to have succeeded in uniting much of the Western territories of the Hunnic Empire. And that then invites the attention of Dengijic. So Giordano's says that Dengijic was defeated by Valimyr in roughly about 455 AD. But in fact, Roman sources tell us that this encounter between the Huns and the Goths of Valimyr actually happened in the middle of the 460s. So 10 years later, 10 years later. So in other words, Giordano's, in the same way that he created two kings out of one person, has created two battles
23:47 Speaker 01 out of one battle, which took place in the middle of the 460s, just so that he is able to extricate the Goths from Hunnic rule as early as possible and to make the ruling dynasty of the Goths a native Gothic dynasty and not a Hunnic dynasty. And so...
24:05 Speaker 01 That's sort of the eastern half of the Hanek Empire at the time is unable to try to reimpose its rule over the West, largely because they're dealing with an invasion from the East. And so during this time, we mentioned this in the podcast on the White Hans, what is happening is that the Keterites are being overrun by the invasion of the Avars coming from the East, and the Avars not only displace the Keterites in Central Asia, they also destroy the Wehans, the so-called Yeban Hans in Kazakhstan. And as a result of the dissolution of these two Hanek states, various military detachments
24:48 Speaker 01 that derive from those two states pour into southern Russia and the Ukraine, and Eunuch in particular, the youngest son of Attila, is stuck fighting against them in the East and is unable to, of course, retake his Western territories. And so in that power vacuum, a war erupts between Valimer and Dengijic over who should claim the title of king of the western half of the Hanek Empire.
25:14 Tristan Hughes? So just to clarify, I'm getting my head around this now, it's very interesting to hear. So Ilak is defeated in the battle by Arderic and his allies. But at that time, you said the Hanek Empire doesn't really recede after that, you just have the new kings, the other sons of Attila, so Eunuch in the East and then Dengijic in the West. And at that time, Valimer still seems to be loyal to those two sons of Attila, and he is reigning in Ukraine-Hungary area, he's a sub-king in that area, do we think?
25:50 Speaker 01 No, Valimer is ruling over what is now much of Hungary, Croatia, Bosnia, that area, northern Serbia, so that area. So that is his core territory. And Dengijic is ruling over regions we should probably associate with Western Ukraine, Belarus, that area. There is another Hanek prince, Ediko, who rules over the Skiri, so basically much of
26:15 Speaker 01 Romania or the the eastern half of Romania. All these Honeck princes are jostling for power. Aldaric, who was the great victor at Netto, he disappears from the picture shortly after the battle. So he presumably died. He must have been an old man by the time of the battle in any case. So so he disappears from the picture. And so Valimer takes his place and the Gepits become very, very insignificant very quickly for about ten years. So Valimer is the more powerful prince in the West. And he himself descends from, most likely from Uldin. So Uldin is one of the earlier Honeck kings. And according to Giordanius himself, the ancestor of Valimer is a certain Wult Wolf.
26:57 Speaker 01 So Wult Wolf is Wult the Wolf. So if you take off the Germanic suffix, Wolf, Wult, of course, is Uldin. Because Uldin, if you look at his name, the -in is the Greek suffix. So you have to remove the -in. And so his name is Wult. So Valimer probably descends from Uldin. He belongs to a cadet line of Honeck kings who have not been able to sort of establish their authority over the whole empire. They're just ruling as sub kings. But in this confusion, when Attila's sons are all fighting against each other, he makes his bid for the throne. And so he declares himself king of the Huns, not king of the Goths or king of the Sarmatians. He says, I'm the king of the Huns.
27:41 Speaker 01 And then he tries to conquer the Swaybe in what is now Germany and the Skiri, who of course are in Romania. And the Swaybe in Germany are ruled by another Honeck prince called Hunimund. His name literally means subservient to the Huns or in the service of the Huns. In other words, a vassal Huns king. And so Hunimund and Edeco of the Skiri, they try to sort of reach out to anybody who could support them against Valimer. Edeco appeals to the Eastern Romans for support and the Eastern Roman emperor Leo decides to support the Skiri. But then Aspar, who is the general of Simeon, says, no, no, no. We are not getting involved and so no real Roman support comes. And so the Skiri and the Swaybi then turned to Dengizik,
28:27 Speaker 01 who is the strongest of the the Honeck princes in the West. And he then, of course, arrives, joins forces with the Skiri. And Jordanes tells us that in this battle against the Skiri, Valimer was killed. But according to Jordanes, despite the death of the king, the the Goths fought heroically, vanquished the Skiri and emerged victorious. But so the Roman sources tell us, right after the death of Valimer, Dengizik is now ruling the Goths. So Dengizik, after he's conquered Valimer's Goths, decides to invade the Eastern Roman Empire. He thinks that now that he's reunited the the western half of the Honeck Empire under himself,
29:09 Speaker 01 that he is owed the tribute that the Eastern Romans had been paying to his father Azerla. So he gathers his forces and demands that the Eastern Romans capitulate. And he asks his brother Ernac, who is his superior in the east. So the the imperial front belongs to Ernac in the east. That is clear because Dengizik pays deference to him. So Ernac is the high king, Dengizik is his viceroy in the west. And so Dengizik asks Ernac if he can attack the Romans. And Ernac tells him, no, you can't, because I'm busy finishing off these other enemies in the east. Let's wait.
29:45 Tristan Hughes? He's still finishing off the Avars in the east, is it, those people?
29:48 Speaker 01 Oh, not the Avars, but the various sort of fragments of other Honeck states in the east that have broken off and are invading his territory.
29:56 Tristan Hughes? And that's in Kazakhstan, southern Russia area?
29:59 Speaker 01 Yes, Kazakhstan, southern Russia, mainly southern Russia. And he successfully integrates all of these Ogors. The main group is the the Saragors, the Bitigors, Onagors, et cetera. These are not tribes. Ogor actually means military division. And the Saragors mean the the yellow division or the the royal division. So that is the most formidable sort of enemy that Ernac has to deal with. And he successfully defeats them. So he manages to unite all the sort of the newcomers. And his own people into one group. And this new sort of imperial state that Ernac founds in Eastern Europe is called Great Bulgaria. And the people are called Bulgari Huns.
30:41 Speaker 01 Bulgari in Oguric Turkic means to stir or to mix. So these are the mixed people. And so Ernac is busy with that in the East. And so he tells Dengizic that he should cut it and not mess with the Romans. But Dengizic proceeds anyway. That leads to some mysterious circumstances.
31:00 Tristan Hughes? It's interesting up to that point because it feels like if we can presume that these events happened in the four sixties, so a decade after Elak's death, that, you know, for a short period of time, the Ernac-Dengizic partnership, you know, restores Hunnic power. They've dealt with the troublemaker Valimah in the West, or Dengizic has. Ernac seems to be gaining success now finally in the Kazakhstan area. And Dengizic, you know, he's, he wants to fight the Romans, but it seems like the defeat of Elak and the issues there was only a blip. And the Hunnic Empire is restoring to its old power, but then what happens?
31:38 Speaker 01 So after 10 years of mayhem, the Hunnic Empire has been put together again or stitched together again, but still unstable, especially in the West. In the East, it is much more stable and will remain so thereafter. But in the West, it is very unstable. And so Dengizic probably should have consolidated his new conquests before embarking on this full hardy war against the Eastern Romans. But he does so anyway. So in 467 AD, he launches his invasion of the Roman Empire. And the Romans resort to subterfuge. So what they do is they send into the Hunnic camp a spy called Chalkal. He's a Hun who is working for the Romans.
32:20 Speaker 01 And so he visits the Goths, who are now back under the, the rule of the Eastern Huns. He reminds the Goths of all the indignities that they had suffered under Hunnic rule, all the taxes they had to pay, all the injustices that they had to endure under Hunnic rule. And this really riles up the Goths. According to Priscus. They then rebel. And so instead of fighting the Romans, what happens is a gigantic fiasco. The Goths within Dengizic's army attacked the Huns and they end up fighting each other. And the entire expedition ends in a complete disaster. The Bitugors, these are eastern newcomers who were probably supplied to Dengizic by Ernac earlier. When Dengizic was fighting against Valimer.
33:04 Speaker 01 So these are newcomers as well, and they are not completely loyal to the assadists. They also seem to have rebelled along with the Goths. So later in Ostrogothic Italy, the Bitugors become a part of the Ostrogothic Kingdom and they become one of the leading sort of groups that make up the Ostrogothic nobility. So both groups rebel and so Dengizic's short-lived unification of the West falls apart almost immediately. And then in roughly 469 AD, he is murdered. And so that is the end of it. Ernac does push back and he does manage-
33:38 Tristan Hughes? Yes, what happens to Ernac?
33:40 Speaker 01 Oh, well, so Ernac then of course finally decides to decides that he needs to deal with the West. And so he sends his armies into what is now Romania and Bulgaria and take over those regions. And the Romans recognize Ernac's rule over the former Roman province of Scythia. What happens is that Thudimer, this is the younger brother of Valimer, retakes the kingship of the Goths. So they've broken away from the eastern Huns again. And Thudimer tries to recover the territories that Valimer had ruled previously. And so he wages war against the Rugi, the Swabi and the Gappids. And he makes too many enemies all at once. And so all these groups unite against him.
34:23 Speaker 01 And at the Battle of Bolia, according to Jordanaez, the Goths vanquished everybody. And they were bored with beating just about everybody repeatedly. And they thought we have to take on a bigger challenge. And so they decide to bolt into Roman territory. And so they abandon all of their territories in Central Europe. And former Gothic territories are then divided by the people that supposedly the- Goth's had defeated in battle and Thudimer ends up in Macedonia and his younger brother Vedeimer, another brother, ends up in Italy. And so the Goth's are scattered to the winds. And Theodoric, who had been a hostage in Constantinople until then, finally rejoins the Goth's
35:07 Speaker 01 and goes to Macedonia with his presumed father Thudimer. There's a little bit of uncertainty as to whether Theodoric is Valimer's son or Thudimer's son. According to Jordanes, Theodoric was the son of Thudimer by a concubine. But then the person who sent Theodoric to Constantinople as a hostage was not Thudimer, but Valimer. So I think what actually was happening was Theodoric was probably an illegitimate son of Valimer, and that's why he could serve as a hostage at the court in Constantinople. But then after Valimer died, in accordance with Honeck custom, his wives would have been passed on to his brother
35:49 Speaker 01 by a system that is very similar to the Livers and the sort of Hebrew context. So when a brother dies in Honeck society, the other brothers, the next brother, then inherits the former wives and concubines of his brother. And so Jordanes, who wants to make Theodoric appear as a Christian king, must have felt that this was very shameful. And so instead of having Thudimer as his, as Theodoric's stepfather, he might have just said Thudimer was his legitimate father. That's just a guess, though. That's what I think happened. But anyhow. So Thudimer ends up in Macedonia, Vedeimer with his Goth's end up in Italy. The territory, former Western Honeck territory, is then divided among
36:34 Speaker 01 a few very powerful Honeck princes, the King of the Gepids, the King of the Swaybe, the King of the Rogi, and those three basically rule over much of the core Honeck territories in the West. And Onak, who finally sort of makes his move, displaces the Skiri, right? So who are led by another Honeck prince called Edeko, who was responsible for killing Valimer earlier. His group are scattered, just like the Goth's, and they end up in the Roman Empire. So Edeko's eldest son Hunulf, the Hun Wolf, ends up in Constantinople. And he joins his relatives who are already there, a certain Armatis, who is either his brother or a cousin. And another relative called Basiliskus,
37:19 Speaker 01 who Leshia becomes Eastern Roman Emperor for just about a year, before being overthrown by the Emperor Zeno, who is an Azzorian. So a lot of these Huns are sort of all over the place, and people related to them are all over the place. And even in the Roman Empire, they were occupying high positions in the military.
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38:48 Tristan Hughes? If we go back to Ernac, as we're kind of focusing on the sons of Attila, is he now the only one still standing? And for how much longer is he able to be the ruler of what is, of what remains the official Hunnic Empire?
39:03 Speaker 01 Yes, so Ernac is able to hold on for quite some time. And he is listed as a very important ancestor in the Bulgard Prince List. So Leshia, the Bulgarians in the 7th century and the 8th century, managed to occupy Or reestablished the Bulgarian state in the Balkans and founded the first Bulgarian empire in the Balkans. In their prince list, we see Ernac as the first significant ancestor after Ashadah. And according to Menander Protector, a eastern Roman historian, Menander doesn't mention Ernac, but he says the the great ancestor of these Huns divided his realm between his two sons. One presided over the Utigurs and the other presided over the Kutrigurs.
39:47 Speaker 01 So the Utigurs are the eastern division, which is much more powerful and has as many as four shi military divisions. The Kutrigurs are the weaker western division in western Ukraine and Romania. They have fewer military divisions, but they've reconstitute the Hunnic empire in Europe, but in a reduced form. So instead of ruling over all of Eastern Europe and Central Europe, they now only rule over Eastern Europe. And in the typical Hunnic fashion, they again divide their empire into two halves, with the descendants of Ernac ruling over both of them. But then, in the middle of the sixth century, the Bulgari states enter into civil war.
40:28 Speaker 01 And while they're busy fighting each other, the Avars, or the pseudo Avars, turn up, just 20,000 of them, and they take over as the new ruling dynasty. But they they don't displace the Ashadahs entirely. They sort of allow them to rule over their peoples as vassals. And once the Avars weaken in the beginning of the the seventh century AD, then these Bulgari again separate themselves from the Avars and reestablish old Great Pool Bulgaria or old Bulgaria in Ukraine under a king called Kubrat. And then he has five sons, and those five sons are defeated by the Khazars, who are the Turks, who sort of are pushed further west.
41:12 Speaker 01 And so one brother, Kotrag, goes north and finds Volga Bulgaria in what is now sort of central Russia. A younger brother called Asparu goes south and establishes Danubian Bulgaria. Another son of Kubrat called Kubr conquers Macedonia and establishes another Bulgaria there. Alcech ends up in Italy. And Bart Bayan, who is the eldest, submits to the Khazars and becomes their vassal. So the five brothers go their separate ways, founds Bulgarians all over the place. And then they integrate with the locals and gradually the Hanukkah's entity then dissolves.
41:50 Tristan Hughes? And then we've got only one Bulgaria surviving today, which is the the country Bulgaria. But it's interesting to think that the country Bulgaria, the name originates from the Hanukkah language, I guess, and what the Huns did and Attila's sons did.
42:04 Speaker 01 Yes, definitely, definitely. And one other interesting sort of side note is that Edeko, that's a Skirian Hanukkah prince who fought against Valimer, he had another even more famous son than Hunov. That, of course, is Otto Akker. And Otto Akker, of course, is the guy who ended the Western Roman Empire. So he is expelled from Central Europe as well. And with his Torki lingi, the name of the the tribe that he rules over is interesting because the ling is the is a Germanic suffix, but Torki, of course, refers to the Huns. And so he leads this group into Italy. And then he installs as a sort of puppet Roman emperor, Romulus Augustulus,
42:47 Speaker 01 who is the son of Orestes, who, incidentally, was the secretary of Attila the Hun. And when Edeko went on this embassy to Constantinople at Attila's command, he took with him Orestes on that trip. So both of them had gone to Constantinople and had met Priscus before the death of Attila. And so Priscus tells us a lot about Edeko and Orestes. And lo and behold, several decades later, the son of Edeko, Otto Akker, commands a Hanukkah army in Italy, or mostly sort of collection of Huns and German tribes in Italy. And he installs as the the last Western Roman emperor, Romulus Augustulus,
43:30 Speaker 01 who is the son of that very same Orestes, the the secretary of Attila the Hun.
43:35 Tristan Hughes? Does he install him, Xianjun? I thought he deposes him, but Orestes installs Romulus Augustus.
43:40 Speaker 01 Oh, no. So Orestes makes a deal with Otto Akk.
43:44 Tristan Hughes? Ah, right.
43:46 Speaker 01 And installs his son Romulus Augustus as emperor, but then Otto Akk decides that I'm dropping this farce. And so he kills Orestes, deposes Romulus Augustus, and then sends the imperial regalia to Constantinople, telling the Eastern Romans that the empire does not need two emperors. I'll run the show here as a virtually independent king in Italy. And you can be emperor all by yourself. And so that's how form of Hunnic princeling took over Italy and established the first barbarian kingdom of Italy. And then, of course, Theodoric, who is another Hunnic princeling, ruling over the Ostrogoths, comes over and kills Otto Akk and takes over and creates the Ostrogothic Kingdom of Italy.
44:29 Tristan Hughes? And once again, all of those figures have links to the Huns and how the story of the Huns lives on. And thinking of the sons, of course, Elak dies early on, Dengizic then following him. Do we have any idea what happens to Ernac? Obviously, if he has his sons and his line continues, so the line of Attila does continue. Do we think he dies of old age, or do we just not have that information?
44:51 Speaker 01 We don't have that information, but I think we can be pretty certain that he died of old age. Because his sons were able to succeed him without any great disturbances. There is no record of any civil wars between the Utigurs and Cuthrigurs until the, basically, the last decades of their existence in the middle of the sixth century. So for the next fifty or sixty years, the Bulgari Huns remain united.
45:16 Tristan Hughes? I will just ask one to wrap it all up, though. Xianjun, how much can we call it a fall? With the Hunnic Empire after Attila, the deaths of two of his sons, the chaos that follows, but then ultimately the stability brought with Ernac and the post-Roman kingdoms that have links to the Huns with figures like Otto Akk and Theodoric and so on. How far can we argue that the Hunnic Empire does fall after Attila's death?
45:41 Speaker 01 Well, it fell in the sense that the united empire, that vast empire that stretched from...
45:48 Speaker 01 Central Gaul to the Volga River, that no longer exists. The western half of the empire definitely dissolved into its constituent parts. And that interestingly mirrors the situation in the Western Roman Empire, which also dissolved. But the East survived, just as the Eastern Roman Empire survived and hung on for a long, long time thereafter. And so we often talk about the fall of the Roman Empire in four seventy six A D. But that, of course, is not accurate. We're talking about the fall of the western half of the Roman Empire. The rest of it, the eastern half, survived another thousand years. In the same way, I think if we were to talk about the collapse of the Honeck Empire, yes, in the West, definitely.
46:30 Speaker 01 It happened after twenty years of complete mayhem and civil wars and unsuccessful attempts by Honeck princes to bring everything back together again. But in the East, the Honeck stage or its successor stage, the Bulgaria, the Bulgari Huns, managed to hang on there for a long time thereafter. And after a sort of an Avar blip in the middle, they again sort of reasserted themselves and their successor states lasted for a long, long time, right up to the eleventh century A D. So not as long as the Romans, but they did sort of hang on for quite some time.
47:05 Tristan Hughes? Xinjin, this has been absolutely fascinating, shining a light on this chaotic period. All of these names and all of these are trying to sort fact from fiction from a figure like Jordana's. You've done a fantastic job delving through all of that. People can read all about it and so much more in your book, which covers this and the whole story of the Huns, it is called.
47:23 Speaker 01 The Huns, Rome and the Birth of Europe by Cambridge University Press.
47:27 Tristan Hughes? And is there also one just called The Huns?
47:29 Speaker 01 Yes, there is another book called The Huns, which is an easier read, which probably should be more recommended because it is easier for the general public to approach.
47:37 Tristan Hughes? I say that because I'm actually holding it in my hand right now and it was a great source of information for our chat today. So I was, wanted to make sure you mentioned that. Xinjin, you've been fantastic. It just goes to me to say thank you so much for coming back on the podcast.
47:49 Speaker 01 It's a pleasure. Thank you for having me.
47:55 Tristan Hughes? Well, there you go. There was Professor Hyun Jin Kim returning to the show to talk through the story of what happened after the death of Attila and the fall of the Hunnic Empire. I hope you enjoyed the episode. Thank you for listening. Please follow The Ancients on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. That really helps us and you'll be doing us a big favour. If you'd also be kind enough to leave us a rating as well, we'd really appreciate that. Don't forget, you can also listen to us and all of History Hits podcasts ad-free and watch hundreds of TV documentaries when you subscribe at historyhit.com/subscribe. That's enough from me. I'll see you in the next episode.
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