555 - Live at Bass Concert Hall (Austin Night 2)

Live at Austin’s Bass Concert Hall, Georgia covers the Marfa Lights and Karen tells the story of Otto Koehler and the Three Emmas. For our sources, please visit https://www.myfavoritemurder.com/episodes. Support this podcast by shopping our latest sponsor deals and promotions at this link: https://bit.ly/3UFCn1g. Head to social media to share your favorite moments from this episode. Instagram: instagram.com/myfavoritemurder http://instagram.com/myfavoritemurder Facebook: facebook.com/myfavoritemurder http://facebook.com/myfavoritemurder TikTok: tiktok.com/@my_favorite_murder http://tiktok.com/@my_favorite_murder Send your hometown stories to [email protected]. Join the Fan Cult to access ad-free episodes of My Favorite Murder. Members also receive merch store discounts, exclusive audio and video content and more! Visit www.fancult.supercast.com http://www.fancult.supercast.com/ to join. Shop for My Favorite Murder and other Exactly Right merchandise here:www.exactlyrightstore.com https://www.exactlyrightstore.com. Rate, review and follow My Favorite Murder on the iHeartRadio, Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you like to listen. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

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• 3:06Georgia Hardstark?

  What's up, Austin?

• 3:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Every time we don't get that wrong, I'm so happy for us.

• 3:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes, I mean, for real.

• 3:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Have a seat, have a seat. Thank you.

• 3:23Karen Kilgariff?

  Hi, y'all.

• 3:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Hi.

• 3:24Karen Kilgariff?

  Hi, y'all.

• 3:29Karen Kilgariff?

  Man, for a theater this big, that was incredibly loud. Thank you so much.

• 3:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Thank you.

• 3:42Georgia Hardstark?

  This never sucks.

• 3:44Karen Kilgariff?

  Never. Not one time.

• 3:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Nope. And we've forgotten how to do this a couple times. I wrote some stuff down because we forgot to talk about anything last night.

• 3:54Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, yeah, we kind of rushed right to the middle last night. It happens. It happens sometimes.

• 4:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Let's start with what you're wearing.

• 4:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Really?

• 4:03Georgia Hardstark?

  I don't know.

• 4:07Karen Kilgariff?

  You go first.

• 4:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, I'm wearing a dress. It's vintage.

• 4:12Georgia Hardstark?

  It's got questionable vintage stains on it.

• 4:15Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 4:16Georgia Hardstark?

  And I'm wearing my cowboy boots.

• 4:17Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 4:20Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. Because Georgia knows how to rep. And I'm wearing a dress that reminds me of my grandma, and it has pockets.

• 4:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 4:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Thank you. It's something in there.

• 4:33Georgia Hardstark?

  Showing your sexy tights, too.

• 4:36Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. Last night, I had opaque, kind of just some opaque tights, like from the 90s that you'd wear with Doc Martens. And my sister's friend Adrienne's here. She really shat on me for wearing those tights. So did my friend Okira. So did my friend Janet.

• 4:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 4:54Karen Kilgariff?

  Everybody.

• 4:55Georgia Hardstark?

  I didn't know.

• 4:56Karen Kilgariff?

  I was being dog piled in that room.

• 4:58Georgia Hardstark?

  For nylons.

• 5:00Karen Kilgariff?

  For a basic anti-fashion choice.

• 5:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Legs.

• 5:04Karen Kilgariff?

  Legs. Remember the pantyhose legs?

• 5:07Georgia Hardstark?

  That came in an egg? Are we the oldest people here?

• 5:09Karen Kilgariff?

  Come on.

• 5:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Are you guys over that? Okay. I just, when I was a kid, I was like, "Mom, I want this." And she's like, "It's fucking t- like, nylons." "It's an egg!" It's not an egg.

• 5:20Karen Kilgariff?

  Legs and eggs. That was the kind of thinking they were doing in the late 70s. It's like, you know what women love? Protein. You know what they also love? Not having weird, gross legs shown to everybody.

• 5:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Cover those up, ladies.

• 5:33Karen Kilgariff?

  Cover them up, put them in a plastic egg. They will sell.

• 5:39Karen Kilgariff?

  What have you been doing here in Austin?

• 5:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Let's see. Well, just mostly eating mac and cheese. And then Uncrustables. I am the unofficial Uncrustables ambassador.

• 5:52Karen Kilgariff?

  She is.

• 5:53Georgia Hardstark?

  I don't know why.

• 5:54Karen Kilgariff?

  Georgia, I know why. Because Georgia put Uncrustables on her rider as like her request for the green room.

• 6:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, what we get to have backstage. It's really, I got so excited. And apparently, I'm the only one because you didn't put anything down on yours. But I was like, "I want this." It's like my moment.

• 6:11Karen Kilgariff?

  I said, "Mozzarella sticks." And Craig kind of stared at me, and I went, "I'm sorry, I meant string cheese." Anyway, I don't care. Diet Coke, whatever. Let's just get this over with.

• 6:22Georgia Hardstark?

  So I've just been bringing Karen snacks. And for some reason, when I said Uncrustables, I think they thought I meant three dozen Uncrustables.

• 6:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 6:32Georgia Hardstark?

  So I've just been bringing everyone Uncrustables. And you have to put, you have to warm them up for a minute. So we figured out if you put them in your bra.

• 6:38Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 6:39Georgia Hardstark?

  It's got the perfect amount of... And so, no, what if I had my bra padded?

• 6:46Karen Kilgariff?

  That's the Austin hors d'oeuvres. That's what we call that right there. A boob warmed Uncrustable from us to you. Yeah.

• 6:55Georgia Hardstark?

  That's good.

• 6:55Karen Kilgariff?

  Yum. I mean, I've had some of the most delicious... I keep eating food here, like, you know, obviously, fajitas and tacos and stuff like that. But I'm like, "How come I can't make meat like this? Why is it so impossible for me to enjoy food?" So you're, except for Uncrustables and things like it.

• 7:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Thank you.

• 7:16Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 7:17Georgia Hardstark?

  I ate barbecue from Terry Black's. Do you like that one?

• 7:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Do you know Terry?

• 7:23Georgia Hardstark?

  You guys know him?

• 7:24Karen Kilgariff?

  Terry's here tonight. Thank you for being here.

• 7:27Georgia Hardstark?

  I keep eating like I don't have to be on stage and in front of a camera. Like, the salt I have been consuming.

• 7:35Karen Kilgariff?

  Salt's great.

• 7:37Georgia Hardstark?

  It's so good. I don't want anything that doesn't have it in it.

• 7:40Karen Kilgariff?

  Hold on a second.

• 7:41Georgia Hardstark?

  What?

• 7:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Was it you or me that asked for Nerds Clusters backstage? Because we do have those. Those are there.

• 7:48Georgia Hardstark?

  That's right.

• 7:49Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. So I have, for dinner, I have Nerds Clust- Nerds Clusters.

• 7:55Georgia Hardstark?

  You just created...

• 7:56Karen Kilgariff?

  Uncrustables. Shut up. It's our idea, not yours.

• 7:59Georgia Hardstark?

  It's ours.

• 8:00Karen Kilgariff?

  You dare steal that idea.

• 8:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Wait, are they, do you put this closed sandwich and you put it inside?

• 8:06Karen Kilgariff?

  It's a surprise inside.

• 8:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, you don't want to like, put it on the outside so it's crunchy on the outside?

• 8:10Karen Kilgariff?

  That's very voodoo donuts of you, but I think it should be on the inside.

• 8:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, what about both?

• 8:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Perfect.

• 8:19Karen Kilgariff?

  What other creative ideas do we have? Whatever fun stuff is going on.

• 8:23Georgia Hardstark?

  I meant to tell you in Denver how I sliced my finger open right before we went on tour. Because it's this thing of like, it keeps you humble when you do something really stupid the moment before you go, like, talk in front of a lot of people. And so, I slit my finger open on a nose hair trimmer.

• 8:41Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 8:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Right before the car came to pick us up.

• 8:45Karen Kilgariff?

  Wait, so are you using like, just an open blade to trim your nose hair? Because I wouldn't do that if I were you.

• 8:52Georgia Hardstark?

  No, that would be amazing. But thankfully, it was brand new. And I thought you had to put a battery in it. So I tried to rip it apart like you would, like an electric toothbrush. And then it went zzzzz. And then, nope, right over the blade.

• 9:04Karen Kilgariff?

  And it was that thing where it didn't hurt at first, and it was kind of white. So you're like, "This won't be a problem." And like, four seconds later, the fountain.

• 9:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, and then I got in the car and we went to a live show.

• 9:14Karen Kilgariff?

  And you said, "Hey, here's some content right here."

• 9:17Georgia Hardstark?

  That's right.

• 9:17Karen Kilgariff?

  "We're going to be able to use this."

• 9:19Georgia Hardstark?

  That's right. What else did we want to tell them?

• 9:23Karen Kilgariff?

  Just, "We love you, Austin. We're so happy to be here."

• 9:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh. This is a podcast, true crime comedy podcast, called My Favorite Murder.

• 9:33Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, that's right. That's it. That's what I wanted to tell them. That's Georgia Hardstark. That's Kieran Kilgariff.

• 9:43Karen Kilgariff?

  And finally, as opposed to the podcast we normally do, we get to hear your side of the story. We get to podcast, and you, I mean, not too much. But you get to be with us, too. It's the most exciting version of this podcast.

• 9:59Georgia Hardstark?

  We fuck up so much more than you realize when you listen to us. When we have editors happening, right?

• 10:07Karen Kilgariff?

  Thanks, Leona. Thanks, Aristotle. They really fix it up for us.

• 10:11Georgia Hardstark?

  That's it. What else?

• 10:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, Steven!

• 10:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Steven texted me today, actually.

• 10:19Karen Kilgariff?

  Did he?

• 10:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, he said, "I met Mary Roach today, who's like, one of the coolest authors." That's right. So I didn't ask him about it because I was doing this.

• 10:28Karen Kilgariff?

  That's funny because, no joke, he texted me today, and he was like, "I was at the, whatever it is, 50th anniversary of Jaws. Good luck tonight." And it was him in an audience, Steven Spielberg, and then one of these, but it says "Jaws" on it. And I was like, "What the hell?"

• 10:43Georgia Hardstark?

  What?

• 10:44Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 10:45Georgia Hardstark?

  So Hollywood, that Hollywood mustache.

• 10:49Karen Kilgariff?

  All of Hollywood's worst secrets inside that mustache.

• 10:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Um, I'm getting a hot flash. Should we sit down?

• 10:56Karen Kilgariff?

  I think we should.

• 11:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Thank you. Last night, someone, oh my god, another fan. I'm not talking about like, one of my fans. I'm talking about someone as a fan, because they're also having hot flashes. And someone had one last night.

• 11:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Hand fans. This means, Nicole, I think we have to start making fans.

• 11:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. Oh, also.

• 11:20Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, there it is.

• 11:22Georgia Hardstark?

  I got tissues this time.

• 11:24Karen Kilgariff?

  Right now, Nicole's like, oh.

• 11:26Georgia Hardstark?

  More merch?

• 11:27Karen Kilgariff?

  We have to make fans.

• 11:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Did you guys meet Nicole at merch? This is her first time in Texas.

• 11:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 11:31Georgia Hardstark?

  So be really nice to her.

• 11:33Karen Kilgariff?

  Be really nice to Nicole.

• 11:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Not that you wouldn't.

• 11:35Karen Kilgariff?

  We need her to stay. We need her help very badly. Oh, wait, am I first tonight?

• 11:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Pretty sure I'm first.

• 11:40Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, okay.

• 11:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Right?

• 11:41Karen Kilgariff?

  I'm not sure. No, yeah, I went first last night.

• 11:44Georgia Hardstark?

  No, but it's not about, but it's about the stories.

• 11:46Karen Kilgariff?

  It's not about that. And then we just have a full fucking fight in front of you.

• 11:51Georgia Hardstark?

  I am 50% sure I'm first tonight.

• 11:54Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, you know what? When the slideshow starts, we'll know for sure.

• 11:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Shit. It is me. Okay, I gotta thumbs up.

• 12:00Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay, great, it's Georgia. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 12:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, but first you have to tell them about this part, this thing.

• 12:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, that's right, that's right. If you are new here, if you work at the Bass Theater and you don't know what the fuck is going on right now, if you're a drag-along, someone's friend, we welcome you. This is a true crime comedy podcast. Now, that is not a thing most people have heard of before. Georgia and I grew up, we've had our traumas, we've had our times, and the way we learn to cope is through humor. And we also learn to cope by reading and rulebooks and looking at websites with fucked up, horrible things that happen to other people on them, and empathizing, and wondering, and making plans.

• 12:45Karen Kilgariff?

  And so, that might be a combination that's upsetting for most people. We just want you to know, if you're concerned, we do not think that murder is funny. We think we're funny. And, other than that, if you don't like it, you can get the fuck out.

• 13:03Georgia Hardstark?

  We also, we also realized today, after 10 years of touring, that we've never told you guys that we don't know each other's stories, so.

• 13:11Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, I mean, people who listen all the time know this, but

• 13:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 13:15Karen Kilgariff?

  When Georgia tells me this story right now, I've never heard it. It's not like she sends it to me and I read it or anything. It's as new for me as it is for you.

• 13:22Georgia Hardstark?

  And our, the people we work with will tell you how fucking annoying that is for all of them to have to keep, they have to have two meetings, like, separate meetings with us, don't even mention the, and, you know, the slide shows.

• 13:33Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, if you're the one who gives it away, it's not good.

• 13:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Look what happened to Steven.

• 13:42Karen Kilgariff?

  That's why Steven's at the premiere of the 50th anniversary of Jaws and not here tonight with us.

• 13:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Sorry.

• 13:49Karen Kilgariff?

  Sorry, you can't be here with these insane women.

• 13:53Georgia Hardstark?

  These ones, not these guys.

• 13:54Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, no one else.

• 13:58Georgia Hardstark?

  All right.

• 13:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, let's do it.

• 13:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 14:00Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 14:01Georgia Hardstark?

  So this one, oh.

• 14:05Georgia Hardstark?

  This one, it got pitched to me, and I was, and it's a weird phenomenon, kind of ghosty story. And I was like, that's really weird that you're pitching it, because I've actually witnessed this phenomenon myself. Tonight's story is, it's a classic Texics, Texas?

• 14:23Karen Kilgariff?

  Texics.

• 14:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Texus instruments?

• 14:26Karen Kilgariff?

  Texas.

• 14:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Texas story. All right, Karen, it's a dark night in 1883.

• 14:34Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 14:34Georgia Hardstark?

  You love it. And 23-year-old Robert Reed Ellison is driving cattle to a ranch on Mitchell Flat, just 15 minutes east of the newly established, what the fuck?

• 14:46Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, you know what it is? We didn't do our vocal exercises before. Yeah, yeah. I love New York, I need New York. I love, I need, you need, New York.

• 14:55Georgia Hardstark?

  I didn't do my vocal exercise of taking a beta blocker, so. That's what's going on here.

• 15:01Karen Kilgariff?

  She's just out there on the edge.

• 15:03Georgia Hardstark?

  That's right. Established, newly established railroad in the town of Marfa, Texas.

• 15:09Karen Kilgariff?

  Marfa.

• 15:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 15:12Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, mixed reviews on Marfa, I love it.

• 15:16Georgia Hardstark?

  While heading through Pizano Pass, he spots a series of strange glowing orbs on the horizon. The flickering white lights move too quickly to be a campfire. And its only explanation that I can think of is, it's like a, it was

• 15:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Jesus?

• 15:32Georgia Hardstark?

  It's the Jesus.

• 15:34Karen Kilgariff?

  Jesus Christ himself.

• 15:37Georgia Hardstark?

  No, it's 1883, they didn't have that yet, I don't think.

• 15:41Karen Kilgariff?

  It's kind of a new, it's a newer thing, yeah.

• 15:43Georgia Hardstark?

  I'm not a Bible student.

• 15:46Georgia Hardstark?

  When he goes to look to see what the hell it could be, he finds no signs of like, a campsite, of what could have explained these orbs. There's no people, there's no ashes, there's no footprints. Obviously, it's not the headlights of a car, it's 1883.

• 15:59Karen Kilgariff?

  It's 1883, guys.

• 16:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Other settlers and railroad workers report the same sightings, mysterious multicolor orbs hovering in the desert just outside of Marfa. Cattlemen drive their herds to the railroad, they use the lights as their guide. And when they see the lights, they know the stockyards are just 20 miles away. And they do whatever you do 20 miles from a stockyard. I don't know. Cowboys ride into the mountains overnight to try to find the source, but the lights always vanish before they can be tracked down. The vast open desert makes distances deceptive, so.

• 16:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Sorry, what, what?

• 16:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Distances deceptive.

• 16:33Karen Kilgariff?

  I said.

• 16:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Distinctive distances, my new band. So catching the lights is impossible. More than 100 years later, these same lights still appear sporadically on the southern horizon between Alpine and Marfa. And yet, these glowing orbs remain as hotly contested a phenomenon as they were in the late 1800s. This is the story of the Marfa Ghost Lights.

• 16:55Karen Kilgariff?

  Wow. I've never heard of that.

• 16:58Georgia Hardstark?

  No? I have sat on a truck hood, is that how cars go? And, and seen them, myself.

• 17:07Karen Kilgariff?

  Are you serious?

• 17:08Georgia Hardstark?

  I swear.

• 17:08Karen Kilgariff?

  And they're not fireflies?

• 17:11Georgia Hardstark?

  They're not fireflies.

• 17:12Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 17:12Georgia Hardstark?

  I want to, let me, actually, let me explain them.

• 17:14Karen Kilgariff?

  What if I solve the Marfa Ghost Lights tonight?

• 17:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, shit.

• 17:17Karen Kilgariff?

  With just a very simple suggestion.

• 17:19Georgia Hardstark?

  It was just two fireflies.

• 17:20Karen Kilgariff?

  Just two fireflies hanging out.

• 17:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Well, real quick, the main sources for the story are articles from the History Channel, Visit Marfa, and The Texas County Reporter. And the rest of the sources can be found on our show notes. And then I went on to our email, where we have thousands and thousands of emails from murderinos, and someone from Marfa explained what they are perfectly, in a way that I clearly can't do. So, Kay, a murderino, said, "Here's the best description I can give of the lights. They usually present themselves in groups of two or three, sometimes splitting apart like a cell, and then merging back together. It's like a teenager with a red light, you know, laser light."

• 17:58Karen Kilgariff?

  Cat toy thing?

• 17:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. Yeah, it's like a cat toy, but it's not. And then they move, what if it was? They move unexpectedly in a way that can only be described as dancing, and they can appear in all sizes and colors. And most importantly, they appear where there has never been a road. And Kay says, "We have spent many nights sitting on the porch, drinking wine, and watching the lights dance and play against the desert landscape." And it is like, something you would see out of, what was it, Unsolved Mysteries. It's just really weird, they're like, kind of blurry, and then they're not, and.

• 18:29Karen Kilgariff?

  And Kay's not scared.

• 18:30Georgia Hardstark?

  She's not scared, no, no.

• 18:32Karen Kilgariff?

  It's just like lights.

• 18:32Georgia Hardstark?

  It's just lights. I think we have a photo of them, unless it's your photo. Yep.

• 18:35Karen Kilgariff?

  Ooh.

• 18:36Georgia Hardstark?

  So they like, they ping up and around, and they dance, like, they do dance. It's really cool.

• 18:42Karen Kilgariff?

  And we're sure that's not a Jaguar?

• 18:46Georgia Hardstark?

  1883. I don't think so. I mean, yeah, it looks like, they go really erratic, so there's no, it doesn't, it wouldn't make sense.

• 18:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Did you take this picture?

• 18:55Georgia Hardstark?

  I absolutely did not.

• 18:56Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 18:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay. So, as most of you probably know, Marfa is a little town in west Texas, about an hour from Big Bend. It is a tiny town, and it's really artsy and fun and cool, and they have a great vintage dress shop.

• 19:15Georgia Hardstark?

  It was originally founded as a water stop and freight headquarters for the railway lines during their westward expansion of 1883. And that's the very same year Robert Ellison records his first sighting of the flickering lights. So, before ranching and the railroad become big business, Marfa and the Big Bend region are part of a wide-ranging network of indigenous travel routes, hunting grounds, and spiritual sites. The Muscolaro, Muscolero, excuse me, Apache are telling stories of ghostly campfires, possibly belonging to their ancestors, on distant hills around Marfa. So, way before

• 19:48Karen Kilgariff?

  Ancient.

• 19:48Georgia Hardstark?

  These, we came along and were like, we saw a thing. They're like, no, we saw a thing first. The lights were sometimes said to guide the spirits of the dead on their journey, or to warn the living to stay away from sacred or contested lands. In some Apache tales, the moving lights are interrupted, nope, interpreted.

• 20:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Similar.

• 20:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Yep. Thank you. Interpreted.

• 20:14Georgia Hardstark?

  This is the fucking menopause tour, man.

• 20:16Karen Kilgariff?

  It certainly is.

• 20:17Georgia Hardstark?

  I don't know what to do about it. I don't.

• 20:20Karen Kilgariff?

  Right?

• 20:21Georgia Hardstark?

  It's like, it should be brought to you by Estradile, not Uncrustables, but. I don't, I don't do self-care.

• 20:29Karen Kilgariff?

  What if Uncrustables were the cure for menopause? And this is how it happens? We discovered it.

• 20:35Georgia Hardstark?

  That would be problematic. On many levels, right?

• 20:40Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 20:41Georgia Hardstark?

  In some tales, it's either living or supernatural, and they travel across the plains at night, and the lights vanish if someone approaches, just the same, like, it's the same lights, I bet, probably. Another story follows an old Apache chief, Apache chief, who gets separated from his people as they travel, long ago, through the high Chianti mountain country. And legend has it that the chief still roams the hills, lighting fires, in hopes of signaling his lost tribe. So there's all these like, tales behind it.

• 21:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 21:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Some Peabody stories describe it as wandering stars or dancing lights. And to the indigenous people of Marfa, lights in the desert at night, especially those that moved, vanished or changed colors, were unquestionably a sign or a message with natural or spiritual world. It was only in the 20th century that white settlers decided to investigate them scientifically.

• 21:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Boo.

• 21:34Georgia Hardstark?

  And start coming up with all kinds of theories. So, in the early 1920s and 30s, the Marfa lights are a popular topic of curiosity among ranchers, but also with travelers along the newly erected US Route 90, your favorite.

• 21:48Karen Kilgariff?

  That's a good one, right?

• 21:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Route 90.

• 21:50Karen Kilgariff?

  So fast.

• 21:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Feel me, feel my neck.

• 21:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Is it hot?

• 21:54Georgia Hardstark?

  It's, I'm.

• 21:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 22:00Karen Kilgariff?

  Just ignore it.

• 22:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay. Some early observers think that the lights could be mirages created by the temperature, you know, whatever mirages.

• 22:11Georgia Hardstark?

  And because it's so frickin' hot in the desert.

• 22:14Karen Kilgariff?

  It's quite hot here.

• 22:15Georgia Hardstark?

  It's hot here. The desert's intense heat during the day, followed by cool nights. They think it creates layers of hot and cold air, causing light to bend, which it does.

• 22:24Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 22:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Because we know, we're scientists.

• 22:27Karen Kilgariff?

  That's what I've always said.

• 22:29Georgia Hardstark?

  You've always hypothesized that.

• 22:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Constantly hypothesizing, no one will listen.

• 22:36Georgia Hardstark?

  This bending of light could cause distant car headlights, campfires, or other light sources to appear elevated, distorted, or flickering, much like mirages that you always see on the road to Las Vegas.

• 22:48Karen Kilgariff?

  That's right. In that one video. Sheryl Crow, thank you very much.

• 22:55Karen Kilgariff?

  This is weird, we have glasses of water tonight. This feels dangerous.

• 22:59Georgia Hardstark?

  I feel like we're like on NPR or something.

• 23:05Georgia Hardstark?

  These aren't, these aren't plastic, these are.

• 23:07Karen Kilgariff?

  No, these are absolutely crystal.

• 23:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Smash it, see if it's.

• 23:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Smash it!

• 23:13Georgia Hardstark?

  But of course, there weren't roads and cars then, so that doesn't make any sense, right?

• 23:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 23:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Thank you.

• 23:20Karen Kilgariff?

  We said yes and no at the same time. Who knows?

• 23:24Georgia Hardstark?

  But we meant the same thing, or just so ironic. Another early proposal is that the lights are products of big shiny Mica bed. Mica or Mica?

• 23:34Karen Kilgariff?

  I think Mica.

• 23:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. That's my nephew's name, I should know that, but it's not spelled the same way, so don't, I'm not a bad auntie.

• 23:40Karen Kilgariff?

  It's also my favorite L'Oréal lipstick from the 80s.

• 23:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh.

• 23:44Karen Kilgariff?

  Remember Mica? It's kind of shimmery purple.

• 23:46Georgia Hardstark?

  We got Mica lipstick, we got legs, what else we got?

• 23:50Karen Kilgariff?

  We'll keep naming shit, don't you worry.

• 23:55Georgia Hardstark?

  And so, like, maybe it's mineral deposits, that sort of thing. Then, on the non-scientific side, other people believe that the lights are will-o'-the-wisps. Have you heard of that? Like, yeah, you're from the country? It's a country thing?

• 24:09Karen Kilgariff?

  I was lying, sorry.

• 24:12Karen Kilgariff?

  I don't know why I did that, it just felt like I was, I was supposed to. Is will-o'-the-wisps something to do with like fairies, or like a natural?

• 24:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Atmosphere, let me tell you, atmosphere ghost lights that appear at night, especially over marshes and swamps in folklore, like that great album. They are often described as mischievous.

• 24:35Georgia Hardstark?

  You like that?

• 24:36Karen Kilgariff?

  Yep, you set off the Swifties, that's genius.

• 24:40Karen Kilgariff?

  Genius crossover.

• 24:42Georgia Hardstark?

  I was in the car with my little younger nephews the other day, and they couldn't stop talking about Fortnite. And I was, I was like, oh yeah? And I put Fortnite on, and they're like, this is not what we're fucking talking about.

• 24:54Georgia Hardstark?

  And I was like, but no, but it's the same word, isn't that exciting? And they're like, who is this lady?

• 25:01Karen Kilgariff?

  Will-o'-the-wisps.

• 25:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes, will-o'-the-wisps, they're scientifically, they're mischievous or malevolent spirits leading travelers astray, is, yeah, so exactly what you said.

• 25:12Karen Kilgariff?

  They're like, come over here into this weird Prada store out in the middle of nowhere. It's crazy, you won't believe it.

• 25:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Scientifically, will-o'-the-wisps, will-o'-the-wisps, what?

• 25:25Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, you have to pronounce it like that.

• 25:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Are usually explained by the oxidation of, you guys know this, gases produced by decaying organic matter, like swamp gas, you know what I mean?

• 25:35Karen Kilgariff?

  Sure.

• 25:36Georgia Hardstark?

  But both of these theories have been debunked, as West Texas desert conditions are typically too dry and lack the organic matter to produce significant, are there scientists here? Humidity, like.

• 25:47Karen Kilgariff?

  I think there's a scientist right there.

• 25:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Hey! Science.

• 25:52Karen Kilgariff?

  So you're basically saying, no bogs in Texas. We don't get to have those.

• 25:56Georgia Hardstark?

  That is a country song. There's no bogs in Texas.

• 25:58Karen Kilgariff?

  There are no mountains.

• 26:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes.

• 26:05Georgia Hardstark?

  She got it.

• 26:05Karen Kilgariff?

  We will hit every audience, like claptrap button we can.

• 26:10Georgia Hardstark?

  That's right.

• 26:12Karen Kilgariff?

  In a theater this big, we don't give a shit, there's no shame.

• 26:15Georgia Hardstark?

  I mean, if you don't know, there's no shame in this podcast by now.

• 26:18Karen Kilgariff?

  You're new.

• 26:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow, you're new.

• 26:20Karen Kilgariff?

  You're brand new.

• 26:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Thank you for coming and giving us a chance. Sorry.

• 26:24Karen Kilgariff?

  And sorry.

• 26:25Georgia Hardstark?

  And we're sorry. Also, it could be St. Elmo's Fire, which is a great movie.

• 26:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. Just somebody playing that way in the distance is like, wait a second, is that Rob Lowe playing the saxophone? Or a will-o'-the-wisp?

• 26:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes. Then, the Roswell incident happens, UFOs, we love them. That happens in 1947, and locals wonder if the Marfa lights, finally, we get to spacecrafts and aliens. We love them.

• 26:52Karen Kilgariff?

  You do.

• 26:53Georgia Hardstark?

  I do. That's right. Due to their unexplained movement, obviously in glowing appearance, many UFO enthusiasts claim that the Marfa lights are aliens monitoring the Earth, or using it as a secret landing spot, but like, it's really obvious, they're not hiding it. It's not like secret, you know?

• 27:11Karen Kilgariff?

  And also, if they're monitoring us, fucking do something.

• 27:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 27:15Karen Kilgariff?

  Like, seriously.

• 27:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 27:17Karen Kilgariff?

  Let's stop, stop the auditing and fucking step in.

• 27:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. It's like, they're either the cutest aliens, they're like, well, you know what I mean? They're doing something adorable for hundreds of fucking years, or it's like.

• 27:29Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, they're flying over us, being so adorable, and they're like, ew, what are they doing to each other? Why are they like this to each other?

• 27:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, seriously. So, I'm gonna go with UFO. I don't, but it is fucking weird, like, not every night, but almost every night, these twin little, and sometimes more lights.

• 27:50Karen Kilgariff?

  It's always two or more?

• 27:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, or just two.

• 27:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 27:54Georgia Hardstark?

  I saw two, everything I saw was two, but people have said they've seen more.

• 27:58Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 27:59Georgia Hardstark?

  And it's just so mysterious. So, and then, in July 1957, a writer named Paul Moran writes an article called "The Mystery of the Texas Ghost Light" in Coronet Magazine.

• 28:10Karen Kilgariff?

  I love that one. I love trumpets, and I always have.

• 28:15Georgia Hardstark?

  And this spreads the word about this phenomenon in tiny Texas town, in a tiny Texas town.

• 28:23Karen Kilgariff?

  Why'd you say phenomenon like that?

• 28:24Georgia Hardstark?

  I don't know, because I was like, what if you say this douchey, and you don't know it until this fucking moment? You know what I mean? I've never said it like in front of a fucking audience.

• 28:33Karen Kilgariff?

  Phenomenon. Wait, can I tell the story about Jackie Beat making the best joke of all time? It was my first writing job, there's an amazing drag queen named Jackie Beat, who was one of the staff members. You might know her, and we were trying to write jokes about the John Travolta movie Phenomenon, and somebody pitched a very terrible joke, and Jackie goes, oh, come on.

• 29:00Karen Kilgariff?

  And I was like, well, I'm never gonna say anything funnier than that, so, forget it.

• 29:07Georgia Hardstark?

  So, in 1971, minimalist artist Donald Judd visits Marfa and decides to relocate there, buying buildings and land for large-scale art installations. And this is kind of when Marfa starts to become the Marfa we all know and love. Have you guys been to Marfa? A lot of people here? Is it like your, like, summer vacation road trip with your parents, and you're like, I don't, fuck it, I, this is embarrassing, mom.

• 29:34Karen Kilgariff?

  I like that you're like, have you guys been to Marfa? Have you, have you 2,000 or 3,000 people been to Marfa?

• 29:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Well, I'd be like, I, I'm from like Southern California, and I've never been to Catalina. Like, that's fucking weird.

• 29:47Karen Kilgariff?

  Why?

• 29:49Georgia Hardstark?

  I don't know.

• 29:50Karen Kilgariff?

  What's your problem?

• 29:51Georgia Hardstark?

  I don't know. But so like, Marfa to me reminds me of like, if you haven't gone, you just don't go. It's like a very specific place to go to, it's, it's not like you're driving through to somewhere else and end up there, right?

• 30:02Karen Kilgariff?

  It doesn't lead to anywhere?

• 30:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, it's very specific.

• 30:05Karen Kilgariff?

  That's the first time an audience has in unison said one answer.

• 30:09Georgia Hardstark?

  That's so true.

• 30:10Karen Kilgariff?

  It doesn't lead anywhere? No.

• 30:12Georgia Hardstark?

  No, we hate it. We had to go for field trips.

• 30:20Georgia Hardstark?

  It's scary, thank you.

• 30:23Karen Kilgariff?

  Let's, let's not give individual opinions about Marfa. You already said no.

• 30:30Georgia Hardstark?

  So, this dude Donald Judd goes out, and it changes the landscape of Marfa, attracting artists, photographers, and writers. And at the same time, the University of Texas researchers conduct studies on the Marfa lights. You can cheer for your college.

• 30:47Karen Kilgariff?

  The fighting.

• 30:50Georgia Hardstark?

  We're bulldozers.

• 30:53Karen Kilgariff?

  We haven't done that one in a long time.

• 30:55Georgia Hardstark?

  We haven't done that one in a long time.

• 30:56Karen Kilgariff?

  Yep.

• 30:57Georgia Hardstark?

  I was thinking on our way here, like, driving through a college campus, and being like, for two girls who dropped out of college, this is pretty fucking cool.

• 31:04Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 31:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Can't kick us off campus. You could. I don't want to challenge anyone.

• 31:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, so the University of Texas researchers are conducting studies on the Marfa lights, and now visitors are coming from all over, staking out informal viewing areas to find the best views of it. So people are finding out about it, and it's getting exciting, and I think the air turned on, and I really appreciate that.

• 31:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Breathe again.

• 31:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 31:33Georgia Hardstark?

  It's become such a hot topic that the El Paso Times reports, quote.

• 31:38Karen Kilgariff?

  Really? It's that good? I love this newspaper, snap.

• 31:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Some people, they say, quote, "Some people in small towns fight about which town has the best-looking women, which town has the best football team,

• 31:57Georgia Hardstark?

  or which town has the most to do after 7:00 PM. But down around Alpine and Marfa, the people fight about whether the lights are caused by something natural, or if they're caused from little people from somewhere else." End quote.

• 32:10Karen Kilgariff?

  That's very biased writing, right there. They clearly chose the first.

• 32:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh.

• 32:17Karen Kilgariff?

  Is it caused by something natural?

• 32:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 32:20Karen Kilgariff?

  Or, "Little people doing this and that."

• 32:22Georgia Hardstark?

  It's a little condescending.

• 32:23Karen Kilgariff?

  I think so.

• 32:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, no, I hear that.

• 32:25Karen Kilgariff?

  Who was that writer? Call them on the phone.

• 32:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Someone from El Paso Times, who's been lost to history.

• 32:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 32:33Georgia Hardstark?

  But we have.

• 32:34Karen Kilgariff?

  There he is.

• 32:38Georgia Hardstark?

  So his car traffic.

• 32:39Karen Kilgariff?

  Little hat with the press card right there.

• 32:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh. What are those, cigarette, cigar cigarettes?

• 32:43Karen Kilgariff?

  All right, I got the story.

• 32:46Georgia Hardstark?

  As car traffic increases, skeptics continually suggest, they won't shut the fuck up, that distant headlights are refracting in the atmosphere.

• 32:55Karen Kilgariff?

  They're not.

• 32:56Georgia Hardstark?

  I bet you they're not.

• 32:57Karen Kilgariff?

  They're not.

• 32:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Unless they were on stagecoaches, I'm gonna go ahead and say, no, they're not.

• 33:01Karen Kilgariff?

  Distant lanterns refracting.

• 33:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Right, no, it's not. This explanation obviously doesn't work, and also the lights change colors, the single light splits into a bunch of different lights. I mean, it really looks like someone's having a campfire behind the mountains, and sparks are coming off of the campfire, but huge, but like, big, and they're having a lot of fun doing it. It's cute, it's actually kinda cute.

• 33:24Karen Kilgariff?

  Finally, a campfire can have fun.

• 33:27Georgia Hardstark?

  A cute campfire. I miss my cats. Okay.

• 33:33Karen Kilgariff?

  Thanks a lot, Marfa.

• 33:38Georgia Hardstark?

  I did almost start crying when someone had, like, one of my cats on their shirt last night. I know. Okay. In the early 80s, a physicist at University of Texas at Dallas.

• 33:50Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 33:53Georgia Hardstark?

  His name was also Donald. Uh-oh. They fighting? No, no, no, they squabbling?

• 34:01Karen Kilgariff?

  Pitchforks.

• 34:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Yep, that's right. Donald Bicknell conducts controlled observations in the area, includes that most lights correlated with car headlights and ranch lights from miles away. Other people are like, "No, dude, you're wrong." And it just, you know, I keep telling you guys over and over again, it doesn't make sense, it doesn't fucking make sense. In 1890, nope, in 1987.

• 34:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Different, different.

• 34:28Georgia Hardstark?

  I caught myself. The town launches a now-annual Marfa Lights Festival.

• 34:33Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 34:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Because anything that happens, we need a festival about it.

• 34:36Karen Kilgariff?

  You have to do a festival about it.

• 34:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Insist.

• 34:39Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 34:40Georgia Hardstark?

  You see a corn dog on the ground?

• 34:41Karen Kilgariff?

  Corn dog time.

• 34:42Georgia Hardstark?

  It's the Corn Dog Festival. Corn Dog Times. Where enthusiasts share their experiences seeing the lights at storytelling sessions, and local ranchers, artists, and residents lead guided trips. So Marfa's population is around 2,000, but thousands of people come to town to try to get a glimpse.

• 34:58Karen Kilgariff?

  So the locals fucking hate it?

• 35:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, I hear you. I do think they probably don't, aren't big fans. It's actually a big destination for art, and your favorite activity? Glamping.

• 35:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Glamping.

• 35:12Georgia Hardstark?

  No, she doesn't like it.

• 35:14Karen Kilgariff?

  When you started that word, I was like, what the fuck could this be?

• 35:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Glam, something.

• 35:21Georgia Hardstark?

  They've been referenced, the lights have been referenced in a song by the Rolling Stones, and on TV shows, and shows like The Simpsons, King of the Hill, and Tripping Out with Ally and Georgia from 2013 on the Cooking Channel.

• 35:35Georgia Hardstark?

  We went to Marfa. We had this show, my friend Ally Ward and I had this show where we travel the country, and we eat food at little places and trip out over. We were going on a trip, get it? And we were like, "Marfa, let's go there." And it was really fun, and we saw the lights, and we wore vintage dresses, and that's it.

• 35:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Incredible.

• 35:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Thank you.

• 35:55Karen Kilgariff?

  Good job.

• 35:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Thank you. And you can find it on the, you can find that episode in the depths of the internet, real, real deep, if you really look, if you wanna look.

• 36:04Karen Kilgariff?

  They'll find it, they'll find it.

• 36:06Georgia Hardstark?

  In the early 2000s, a group of gifted and talented high school students, I don't know why I laughed at that.

• 36:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Because we've always laughed at them.

• 36:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes. Because we weren't them, and so we're a little bitter.

• 36:18Karen Kilgariff?

  We're very hurt and embarrassed.

• 36:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 36:21Karen Kilgariff?

  And ashamed.

• 36:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. They convinced the Texas Department of Transportation to build an official viewing center, and in 2003, the Marfa Mystery Lights Viewing Center opens, and thousands of visitors come every year. I think we have a plaque.

• 36:38Karen Kilgariff?

  What?

• 36:39Georgia Hardstark?

  To show you.

• 36:40Karen Kilgariff?

  Whoa, whoa, whoa.

• 36:41Georgia Hardstark?

  There's a plaque.

• 36:42Karen Kilgariff?

  And that's the viewing center, that RV right back there? Come on in.

• 36:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Get in.

• 36:49Karen Kilgariff?

  I love that, so, a group of gifted and talented students went, and they're like, "We'd like to speak to you about a viewing center right now." And it actually worked.

• 36:59Georgia Hardstark?

  It did work.

• 37:00Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 37:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 37:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Nerds.

• 37:04Georgia Hardstark?

  From 2004 to 2008, a Texas State University study uses spectro-

• 37:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Texas State.

• 37:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 37:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, no, no, no, no. The.

• 37:17Karen Kilgariff?

  Fighting?

• 37:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Raging.

• 37:19Karen Kilgariff?

  Alcoholics.

• 37:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, that's right, there's a My Favorite Murder cocktail here tonight.

• 37:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, shit.

• 37:33Georgia Hardstark?

  Are you guys okay?

• 37:34Karen Kilgariff?

  Was it good?

• 37:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Was it good?

• 37:36Karen Kilgariff?

  How are you?

• 37:37Georgia Hardstark?

  She's holding her empty glass up there. You got a lot of cups being held up.

• 37:40Karen Kilgariff?

  Nice. This is gonna start to be like a Jimmy Buffett concert, and I can't wait.

• 37:47Georgia Hardstark?

  What's a Jimmy Buffett concert like? I truly don't know.

• 37:50Karen Kilgariff?

  I'm not sure, because I'm so stoned when I'm there.

• 37:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, got it.

• 37:54Karen Kilgariff?

  Busting my flip-flop, you know.

• 37:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Got it.

• 37:58Georgia Hardstark?

  They, so, they use spectroscopic analysis, mapping light sources to vehicle locations. Similarly, to early studies, they find the lights, again, they're wrong.

• 38:09Karen Kilgariff?

  Not connected.

• 38:10Georgia Hardstark?

  It's not gonna get, there's strong evidence that most modern-day sightings are a combination of man-made light sources, mostly headlights being refracted into the air, but we here at My Favorite Murder say, "No."

• 38:22Karen Kilgariff?

  We scientifically know better.

• 38:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, we scientifically know that shit.

• 38:25Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, nope.

• 38:26Georgia Hardstark?

  But some local artists insist on sightings in areas and times with no possible traffic. And of course, Robert Ellison, back in 1883, certainly hadn't seen any cars in the desert that night before Marfa itself became the place to be in 1883. Hey, wait, that rhymes.

• 38:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Sing it.

• 38:44Georgia Hardstark?

  The plaque at the Marfa Lights Viewing Center details that despite more than 100 years and more than 75 folk tales about their origins, the Marfa Ghostlights remain a fascinating unsolved mystery, and that is the story of the Marfa Ghostlights.

• 38:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 39:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Thank you.

• 39:05Karen Kilgariff?

  I just love.

• 39:08Karen Kilgariff?

  It's, I just love the way they're just like, and then 40 years later, they study it, and they're like, "It's cars?" And it's like, "No, it's not."

• 39:16Georgia Hardstark?

  We refuse. Let me tell you how many times they studied it and said it was cars. That's my story tonight.

• 39:23Karen Kilgariff?

  That's very cool, now I wanna see that.

• 39:25Georgia Hardstark?

  They're beautiful, they're really cool.

• 39:26Karen Kilgariff?

  I like that people aren't scared of them. They're like, "I drink wine, and if we're being attacked by aliens, so be it."

• 39:32Georgia Hardstark?

  They like, whoa, they, what's a tailgated phenomenon? You guys love tailgating.

• 39:44Georgia Hardstark?

  That's what I heard.

• 39:46Karen Kilgariff?

  Sorry, I'm in the transitional period to get ready for my own story.

• 39:50Georgia Hardstark?

  It's your turn now.

• 39:51Karen Kilgariff?

  I stopped listening to you three minutes ago.

• 39:53Georgia Hardstark?

  I know, I recognize the look in your eyes from my own. It's this, "Oh shit, oh shit, oh shit, shit, shit."

• 40:00Karen Kilgariff?

  What's this gonna be like?

• 40:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Do I know where I am? What am I doing? Okay, I'm here for it.

• 40:05Karen Kilgariff?

  Thank you. Great job.

• 40:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Thank you.

• 40:08Karen Kilgariff?

  I really liked that one.

• 40:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Thank you.

• 40:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Guys, we gotta solve this mystery before the world ends.

• 40:17Georgia Hardstark?

  When being scared is supposed to be fun.

• 40:19Karen Kilgariff?

  Terrified in a haunted house? Sure. Your actual house? Absolutely not.

• 40:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Feel safe in your home with SimpliSafe.

• 40:26Karen Kilgariff?

  SimpliSafe is designed to help stop intruders before they get inside.

• 40:29Georgia Hardstark?

  I recently got an alert from my camera outside that there is like someone prowling around late at night. And of course, I got freaked out. I opened my camera and it was a big spider dangling in front of the camera.

• 40:42Karen Kilgariff?

  No.

• 40:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Which was terrifying in itself, but such a relief. And I love that I know that it works. You know what I mean? Like, it's so much better a spider than an actual person, but I'll be prepared.

• 40:52Karen Kilgariff?

  All the answers are on your phone. You don't have to worry and sit there and wring your hands.

• 40:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Join the more than 6 million people who entrust SimpliSafe with their home security.

• 41:01Karen Kilgariff?

  Right now, save 60% off with professional monitoring when you visit simplisafe.com/fave.

• 41:06Georgia Hardstark?

  That's simplisafe.com/fav.

• 41:08Karen Kilgariff?

  And when you order, please write in "my favorite murder" in the checkout survey. It lets them know that we sent you and it really helps support the show.

• 41:15Georgia Hardstark?

  SimpliSafe, ahead of crime in real time.

• 41:17Karen Kilgariff?

  Goodbye.

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• 42:18Karen Kilgariff?

  My story tonight is very different than the Marfa ghost lights. It begins 111 years ago on, I don't know if this math is right, on November 12, 1914.

• 42:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 42:29Karen Kilgariff?

  Sounds right.

• 42:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Sounds right.

• 42:31Karen Kilgariff?

  A few miles south of downtown San Antonio.

• 42:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 42:38Karen Kilgariff?

  They love it there. They love that river. In a modest cottage once shared by two young nurses, both named Emma. So, one of these Emmas had recently got married, someone knows, and they moved out. But she came back to visit her old roommate, Emma. So, around 4 o'clock that afternoon, they're having a visit, and the newly married Emma runs to the neighbor's house screaming and begging for help. And as she does, two gunshots ring out from the cottage. The neighbors rush over, fearing that the other Emma has been shot. Instead, they find the single Emma seemingly in shock, bleeding from a slashed wrist, and kneeling

• 43:21Karen Kilgariff?

  beside the body of a dead man sprawled on the floor. When the authorities arrive, they learn the dead man is one of the richest businessmen in Texas. He's also married, and this may seem a little lazy, but his wife is also named Emma. Yes, that's right. That's right.

• 43:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow. Wow. So, we're gonna go Emma, 1, 2, and 3?

• 43:41Karen Kilgariff?

  That's fucking right on.

• 43:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 43:43Karen Kilgariff?

  The entire time. These are the first moments of a very Texas true crime story filled with lies, love, murder, beer, and featuring the recurring theme of most of these stories, an awful husband/boyfriend/side piece. This is the story of the murder of San Antonio businessman Otto Koehler and the three Emmas in his life.

• 44:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow. I don't know this one, and I didn't know this one, as you know, because we didn't know each other's stories.

• 44:13Karen Kilgariff?

  That's right. Everything's a wonderful surprise. The sources that we use in this story today are reporting by the legendary Texas writer Joe Hawley, Money, Murder, Sex and Beer by Robert L. Gully. People love beer. And the rest are in our future show notes that don't exist right now, but will at some time.

• 44:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Look them up when they exist.

• 44:38Karen Kilgariff?

  When they exist, please, and no sooner. Now, let's start with Otto Koehler's backstory. He is born in Germany in the 1850s to a family of humble means. In his 20s, he immigrates to the United States, like so many others, chasing the American dream. And he first lands in St. Louis. He gets clerical work at a brewery, and then he stays for a couple years and becomes a naturalized US citizen, which is what we do here and which is a good thing, and we need it.

• 45:07Georgia Hardstark?

  And what the fuck are we doing?

• 45:11Karen Kilgariff?

  Right? Let me get off my soapbox and start reading off this paper again. He also meets his future wife, the first Emma, Emma Benson, and her family is also German.

• 45:28Georgia Hardstark?

  And they're named Emma as well.

• 45:29Karen Kilgariff?

  Mm-hmm. Every single member of her family. So, when Otto and Emma are in their mid 20s, they meet at an event thrown for St. Louis's German community. And then I wrote, this isn't real, Das Minglefest.

• 45:44Georgia Hardstark?

  You would have to throw that this year.

• 45:50Karen Kilgariff?

  Let's do the thing again. Damn it, I have a new weird tic where I go like this.

• 45:57Georgia Hardstark?

  I told her about her new tic and now she can't not do it.

• 46:00Karen Kilgariff?

  It's really such a bummer. Oh, I also write, "Der Kinderjäger." That was the other event name. It's kindergarten and jägermeister.

• 46:09Georgia Hardstark?

  You are so good at this.

• 46:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, I just looked up like, what's a German phrase for a party? And then I just kinda combined all the pieces.

• 46:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Rally?

• 46:17Karen Kilgariff?

  German seems kinda easy to learn, because everything, you know, it's like kindergarten, child garden.

• 46:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 46:22Karen Kilgariff?

  You know what I mean? Pretty intuitive and user-friendly. So, the two get married after they meet, obviously, and they move to San Antonio, Texas. Even back in the 19th century, San Antonio is one of the most diverse cities in the United States with one of the most vibrant German immigrant communities of the time.

• 46:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 46:44Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. People are scared to clap for Germans, but we can clap for diversity. It's all fine. It's all fine. We're a good faith situation here. So, not only that, but Otto senses that there's a real opportunity in San Antonio's booming beer industry, and he is right. So, he immediately lands a job at the Lone Star Brewing Company. It's the national beer of Texas.

• 47:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Hey!

• 47:11Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. So, he works there, and he does such a good job that he gains the attention and respect of none other than Adolphus Bush, co-founder of Anheuser-Busch Brewery.

• 47:21Georgia Hardstark?

  I bet he's German, right?

• 47:23Karen Kilgariff?

  A little bit. And he's also the co-owner of Lone Star Beer. So, the fact that he likes Otto is huge. Soon, Otto's rising up the brewery's ranks, and by the time he's 30 years old, he's the general manager at Lone Star.

• 47:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Damn, but they also had shorter lifespans then, so don't feel bad about that.

• 47:40Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, don't, don't compare yourself to Otto. You'll never feel good about yourself.

• 47:45Georgia Hardstark?

  30 was like middle age back then, and now it's like, nah.

• 47:48Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. Also, it's like, he was running a brewery when he was 30, and I was like, I was just drinking a brewery when I was that age. So, all the while that Otto's doing that, his wife Emma is holding down the household while being a doting, devoted wife. So, let's take a picture. Let's take a look, Jesus Christ, at the Kahlers. Let's take a picture of the Kahlers. This is Otto and Emma 1.

• 48:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Hi. Hi. And they're 30 in this.

• 48:19Karen Kilgariff?

  They're both 30.

• 48:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Told you.

• 48:21Karen Kilgariff?

  It was tough times. Tough times.

• 48:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Fucking told you.

• 48:23Karen Kilgariff?

  In the turn of the century.

• 48:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 48:25Karen Kilgariff?

  Look, there was no sunscreen. There was hardly any water.

• 48:29Georgia Hardstark?

  They drank beer instead of water.

• 48:32Karen Kilgariff?

  It was just beer.

• 48:34Georgia Hardstark?

  And she's got one of those "don't remove my ribbon" necklaces, right? We all know what happened.

• 48:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Never remove my ribbon.

• 48:47Georgia Hardstark?

  And they borrow each other's glasses.

• 48:48Karen Kilgariff?

  I like...

• 48:49Georgia Hardstark?

  All the time.

• 48:51Karen Kilgariff?

  I was gonna say, I like that they could both go as each other for Halloween. Absolutely.

• 48:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh my God, they might be the same person.

• 48:58Karen Kilgariff?

  They could be, actually. Wait, that's the big reveal at the end. It's all one guy.

• 49:04Georgia Hardstark?

  There was never an Emma.

• 49:05Karen Kilgariff?

  There's no Emmas.

• 49:06Georgia Hardstark?

  There's not a single Emma. I love them.

• 49:09Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay. So, the Kahlers are living, sorry about that, they're living comfortably, and they're able to so comfortably that they plan a yearly trip back to the homeland in Germany that goes usually from spring, so like from May to October.

• 49:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, because you gotta take a fucking boat and shit, right?

• 49:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, that's right.

• 49:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Ugh. I don't care.

• 49:33Karen Kilgariff?

  Heat, heat.

• 49:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 49:36Karen Kilgariff?

  To escape, escape the sweltering heat. So, in 1886, on the Kahler's annual trip home, Otto buys a lager recipe from a brewery in Bremen. He has to borrow a bunch of money from his family to afford to buy this recipe.

• 49:50Georgia Hardstark?

  That'd be good.

• 49:51Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. He's like, well, he gets this feeling where he's like, I tasted that shit beer back in America, and we're gonna, we're gonna change the game here. So, he is hoping that this gamble pays off. So, the next year in 1887, Otto has a falling out with the higher-ups at Lone Star. He jumps ship and he goes to work for the San Antonio Brewing Association. Take a look at it right here. This is, look at it!

• 50:19Georgia Hardstark?

  That's, I see the word ass. Does anyone else, did anyone else just go directly to the word ass?

• 50:24Karen Kilgariff?

  That would be...

• 50:25Georgia Hardstark?

  I'm a child.

• 50:26Karen Kilgariff?

  If we fully produced this, it would be this still, and then that would all fade, and it would just be the word ass up there. So, Otto does well here, too. Eventually, he becomes the president of that place.

• 50:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow, damn.

• 50:40Karen Kilgariff?

  And under his leadership, the association builds a state-of-the-art facility that soon begins to produce the lager from that recipe that he bought.

• 50:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Hey.

• 50:48Karen Kilgariff?

  And he names that, that lager Pearl Lager.

• 50:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay. I haven't had it. I had a Shinerbock last night. Do you guys like that?

• 50:58Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 50:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Phew! I was like, that could be a boo. And I'm just gambling. I'm like rolling the dice of fear.

• 51:05Karen Kilgariff?

  And you loved it?

• 51:06Georgia Hardstark?

  It was good, yeah. It was really good.

• 51:07Karen Kilgariff?

  Did you get in in a big boot?

• 51:12Karen Kilgariff?

  It's fun. It's fun to drink out of shoes.

• 51:15Georgia Hardstark?

  I think you're having a party and you're drinking out of shoes.

• 51:18Karen Kilgariff?

  That's how I party. Dirty, dirty shoes. So, in no time, Otto's gamble pays off. People fucking love Pearl Beer. One local San Antonio newspaper writes that it has, quote, "an excellent flavor and quality." It's that kind of compelling journalism that has gotten us through. It also recommends, quote, "When you want a fine glass of beer, try the City Pearl." That's an ad, that's not an article. Pearl Beer becomes so big that before long, the San Antonio Brewing Association becomes the biggest brewing company in San Antonio.

• 51:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, good job.

• 51:58Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, great. You didn't do it.

• 52:03Karen Kilgariff?

  They have about...

• 52:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Maybe.

• 52:04Karen Kilgariff?

  They, I mean, actually, you're right. I apologize, I don't know what you've done in your life.

• 52:10Karen Kilgariff?

  The San Antonio Brewing Association has 1,200 employees.

• 52:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Whoa.

• 52:14Karen Kilgariff?

  That's a lot. And they make around $500,000 yearly in revenue, which is about...

• 52:22Georgia Hardstark?

  It's $5,000 in...

• 52:24Karen Kilgariff?

  It's like 1918 or so.

• 52:26Georgia Hardstark?

  It is $43,000.

• 52:30Karen Kilgariff?

  You've gone lower. You've gone, you've gone, you've gone low.

• 52:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Shit, that's the first time that's happened.

• 52:36Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, that's right.

• 52:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Inflation.

• 52:38Karen Kilgariff?

  Do you want to play this game or are you trying to sink it?

• 52:40Georgia Hardstark?

  I'm trying, we're trying to retire this game.

• 52:42Karen Kilgariff?

  You are, and I won't stop doing it.

• 52:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, 5 million in 1940.

• 52:47Karen Kilgariff?

  No.

• 52:47Georgia Hardstark?

  What? What is it?

• 52:49Karen Kilgariff?

  500,000.

• 52:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Jesus, okay. I did the same thing where I was like somewhere else. Uh, it's, in today's money is 1.9 million.

• 52:58Karen Kilgariff?

  16 million.

• 52:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Fuck!

• 53:01Georgia Hardstark?

  It's so unsatisfying to like not even be close.

• 53:04Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes, but I think it's very grounding to be wrong.

• 53:07Georgia Hardstark?

  I am, most of the time. I don't need another...

• 53:11Karen Kilgariff?

  Hey, girl, I relate. Okay, so he's making bank, but beer is just the start for Otto Koehler. He buys a luxury health spa a bit south of the city. He invests in mining and rubber companies across the border in Mexico. He buys lots and lots of real estate and he reportedly serves as either, quote, "president or director of 15 different operations."

• 53:33Georgia Hardstark?

  Jesus, take a fucking break.

• 53:35Karen Kilgariff?

  For real, go to, go to that health spa you bought.

• 53:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Exactly.

• 53:39Karen Kilgariff?

  So by the early 1900s and into the 1910s, oh, sorry, I gave you the wrong year. It was in the late 1800s.

• 53:44Georgia Hardstark?

  See, I probably was right.

• 53:45Karen Kilgariff?

  That's the reason, that's the reason.

• 53:47Georgia Hardstark?

  That's fine.

• 53:48Karen Kilgariff?

  Um, so into the 1910s, Otto and Emma are now approaching their 50s and they are fucking rich like crazy. They have an estimated net worth of around $3 million. You want me to just say it?

• 54:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Just say, yes, okay. 3 million, then, I'm gonna go is 54 million.

• 54:06Karen Kilgariff?

  96 million in today's money. I mean...

• 54:10Georgia Hardstark?

  That's, that's too much money.

• 54:11Karen Kilgariff?

  I know, it's a lot. They're at the top of San Antonio high society.

• 54:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Hey!

• 54:16Karen Kilgariff?

  They live in a large stone...

• 54:18Georgia Hardstark?

  What's that?

• 54:19Karen Kilgariff?

  I don't know. I'm just trying to get through this fucking thing.

• 54:24Karen Kilgariff?

  Just kidding. They live in a large stone mansion, just steps away from the brewery. So that thing where like you live around the corner from work?

• 54:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Also, have you lived near a brewery? They fucking stink.

• 54:33Karen Kilgariff?

  They stink, yeah.

• 54:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Right?

• 54:35Karen Kilgariff?

  Unless you like hops. I used to live around the corner from the Gap and I was always still eight minutes late every single day. They hated my fucking guts. So much at the Gap. Anyhow...

• 54:49Georgia Hardstark?

  I thought you were gonna say you could smell it on you for some reason.

• 54:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Smell those gross jeans.

• 55:00Karen Kilgariff?

  Stone Mansion, I told you about that. It's really close to the brewery. Oh, and in that stone mansion, Emma entertains their elite circle of friends and acquaintances. She's also very active in different charities. You saw her with the choker, she's out and about.

• 55:17Karen Kilgariff?

  But then it all comes crashing down. Around 1907, Emma gets very sick with an unspecified illness. And the next year, Otto alludes to her illness in a letter saying, quote, "Mrs. Kahler is still sick in bed. She has had another attack the night before last, which forced her to go to bed again."

• 55:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Is that an attack of "I've been poisoned"? Probably.

• 55:38Karen Kilgariff?

  Or is it an attack of "I'm so rich, now I'm just fucking lazy and I'm just gonna lay my ass around"? No, she was actually sick, sorry. So writer Robert L. Gully...

• 55:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Sorry, lady.

• 55:48Karen Kilgariff?

  That's rude. Robert L. Gully, the writer, tries to get to the bottom of Emma's sickness in his book, Money, Murder, Sex and Beer. He makes a compelling case that Emma might be receiving treatment for anxiety, depression, or even headaches, and the treatment she's receiving isn't very effective.

• 56:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh my god, what could it have been back then?

• 56:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Right?

• 56:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Just zapping the ever-loving shit out of you?

• 56:11Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, and like literal snake oil. Where they're like, "We brought the snake in, you kill it, we'll milk it, you drink it, why are you still sick? You're hysterical." One of her doctors is a man named Dr. Louis Tallman, or Tallman, and he's a very close friend of Otto's, one of his regular golf buddies. And Gully's book suggests that he's a quack. Dr. Tallman's treatments include spoon-feeding clients' milk and soup.

• 56:44Georgia Hardstark?

  I can do it myself, dude.

• 56:45Karen Kilgariff?

  No, no, no, I must do it for you.

• 56:47Georgia Hardstark?

  And it's not even working.

• 56:48Karen Kilgariff?

  Dr. Tallman feeds you.

• 56:52Karen Kilgariff?

  Dr. Tallman's, uh, he keeps him on bedrest for weeks at a time. That's not a problem. And, but, but his version is he discourages everything except for very small movements.

• 57:07Karen Kilgariff?

  "Dr. Tallman, can I have some more milk and soup? Okay, really quick, before you go." Uh, he actually, he even restricts reading.

• 57:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Dude!

• 57:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Just drink your milk.

• 57:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Just drink your milk. There's no TV, there's no podcasting.

• 57:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Do not move. You can't even like do a shadow puppet on the wall. Too much movement.

• 57:34Karen Kilgariff?

  This is all meant to neurologically reset the overwhelmed, nervous patient. But we do know from old newspaper reports that Emma was involved in a car crash in 1910. There don't seem to be any surviving records to explain more about that accident, but we do know, there's no way I'm gonna get these pages apart. Sorry, this story's over. I love you guys, thanks so much.

• 58:00Karen Kilgariff?

  I gotta get one of those rubber thumb things.

• 58:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Yep. We need so many things.

• 58:05Karen Kilgariff?

  We need a lot of things. Oh, so Otto believes that Emma needs round-the-clock medical assistance and he winds up hiring a live-in nurse to look after her, and this is the second of the three Emmas.

• 58:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Got it.

• 58:19Karen Kilgariff?

  So from here going forward, Otto's wife, Emma Kahler, is Emma number one.

• 58:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 58:25Karen Kilgariff?

  And this woman, who's the new nurse, is Emma Dumkey, and she is Emma number two.

• 58:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 58:31Karen Kilgariff?

  And then we just have a floating, threatening Emma three coming up in the distance. So Emma number two, Emma Dumkey, Emma Dumkey, says it right there, Karen, is a pretty brunette German woman in her 20s who Otto hires on the spot after meeting her on one of their vacations to Germany. Meanwhile, Emma number one's like, "Pardon me, could you step away from her, please? I don't..." You guys seem to be hugging and kissing a lot.

• 59:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Stop moving, stop moving, you're moving too much.

• 59:01Karen Kilgariff?

  I'm sorry, sorry.

• 59:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Drink your milk.

• 59:03Karen Kilgariff?

  More milk.

• 59:10Karen Kilgariff?

  But little does Emma number one know? We do, I think I just said it. Her husband, Otto, is sleeping with Emma number two pretty much immediately after she's hired.

• 59:23Karen Kilgariff?

  Look, sex is natural.

• 59:29Karen Kilgariff?

  But it isn't just a physical affair. This is Maren's writing. Otto falls hard for Emma number two.

• 59:36Karen Kilgariff?

  That old guy that looks like he should be on a bag of oatmeal. He fell so hard for a 20-year-old.

• 59:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, who'd have thunk it?

• 59:44Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh my god, that's crazy, what a romantic.

• 59:49Karen Kilgariff?

  Although their relationship is believed to be a consensual one, it's very important to point out the power differential in this relationship. Otto's 30 years older, he's one of the richest people in Texas, she's a recent immigrant with no money of her own, and Otto's the guy signing her paychecks every week and putting a roof over her head. So it is true love for real.

• 1:00:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Do you think it's more or less insulting for your husband to be on you with someone with the exact same fucking name as you?

• 1:00:17Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, I think that's, it's passive-aggressive is what that is.

• 1:00:20Georgia Hardstark?

  It is. It's also lazy.

• 1:00:23Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, it is. It's like, "I like Emma's." Okay.

• 1:00:29Karen Kilgariff?

  So all that's relevant because in 1911, about a year into Emma number two's nursing job with the Kahlers, she tells Otto that she would like to move out of the house. So, deep, deeply in love. She is still gonna be Emma number one's caregiver, but she doesn't want to live in the house anymore, so Emma number two moves in with a new friend that she's made in San Antonio, also a German nurse. She's in her mid-30s, her name is Emma Bergermeister. This is Emma number three.

• 1:01:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Bergermeister.

• 1:01:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Here's Emma number three.

• 1:01:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh.

• 1:01:05Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh!

• 1:01:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Hey.

• 1:01:07Karen Kilgariff?

  Hey, girl.

• 1:01:08Georgia Hardstark?

  She looks like witty. Looks like she could do it, a Jägerbomb.

• 1:01:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes, yeah.

• 1:01:16Georgia Hardstark?

  You know?

• 1:01:17Karen Kilgariff?

  She's like, "Emma two, let's fucking party, seriously. We're just German nurses trying to get by in this crazy world." Yeah. Once the two are roommates, Emma number two tells Emma number three about this affair she's been having with the rich man. It says, "she's been having with her patient," and I was like, "Well, that's wrong." And I didn't read the rest of it. "Her patient's rich, uber-rich husband." So about a month into the new living situation, Otto Koehler buys a cottage and then deals this cottage to the two Emmas. So he, he gets a little, a little love nest for himself. He stops by at least once a week, usually in the evening, I don't know.

• 1:02:00Karen Kilgariff?

  And he typically stays for a few hours, and before he arrives, Emma number three, "Oh, I don't know, she just has to go for a walk and stuff."

• 1:02:09Georgia Hardstark?

  She puts a stocking on the doorknob. What were they, what's...

• 1:02:13Karen Kilgariff?

  She puts an old sack of grain on the doorknob.

• 1:02:19Karen Kilgariff?

  And then she goes and just gets so drunk at the brewery like, ugh.

• 1:02:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Jaegermeister.

• 1:02:24Karen Kilgariff?

  Jaeger.

• 1:02:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Jaegerbaum, jaegerbaum.

• 1:02:26Karen Kilgariff?

  Um, this affair lasts for years, during which Otto gives Emma number two a monthly allowance of $125. So how much does she get a month in today's money?

• 1:02:38Georgia Hardstark?

  $5,000.

• 1:02:39Karen Kilgariff?

  Very close, $4,000. So close.

• 1:02:42Georgia Hardstark?

  I like it. That feels better. That definitely feels better.

• 1:02:45Karen Kilgariff?

  There's no other job in the world where you could guess numbers, be a thousand off, and have people cheer like that for you. What a goddamn miracle this is.

• 1:02:54Georgia Hardstark?

  We figured it out.

• 1:02:55Karen Kilgariff?

  It's, we've really, we've really rigged the system for ourselves.

• 1:03:01Georgia Hardstark?

  It's pretty sweet.

• 1:03:02Karen Kilgariff?

  So, that also seems to be in addition to the paycheck she gets for nursing Emma number one.

• 1:03:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, wow.

• 1:03:09Karen Kilgariff?

  She has to spoon-feed that milk. You gotta pay for that.

• 1:03:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:13Karen Kilgariff?

  And then he also gives Emma number three $50 a month, just to keep her trap shut. And how much would $50 a month be, do you think?

• 1:03:22Georgia Hardstark?

  A thousand?

• 1:03:24Karen Kilgariff?

  $2,700.

• 1:03:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Fuck. See? It's just like, ups and downs.

• 1:03:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Here's the thing, though, about me. If you paid me $2,700 a month to not talk, I couldn't do it.

• 1:03:35Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay, could you keep your trap shut for this month? I'll try. No, no, I can't, sorry.

• 1:03:40Georgia Hardstark?

  You end up owing them money.

• 1:03:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Can I keep a running tap? I'm gonna try it again next month, I swear to God. I'm gonna be so quiet next month. So we won't ever know if that $50 a month is hush money, or if it's more. But Emma number three will later say that this is around the time where she goes on a, quote, "long ride in Otto's buggy."

• 1:04:06Karen Kilgariff?

  And those, the lights from the buggy, go all the way to Martha.

• 1:04:12Karen Kilgariff?

  And we've solved it. Boom. Here's the thing, if you ever do a live podcast, just keep bringing things all the way back around.

• 1:04:21Georgia Hardstark?

  That's all it takes.

• 1:04:21Karen Kilgariff?

  That's all you have to do. So on this buggy ride, Otto reveals his plan. He's going to marry Emma number two when his gravely ill Emma number one finally dies. And "finally dies" is the phrase he uses.

• 1:04:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh.

• 1:04:37Karen Kilgariff?

  I'm just kidding.

• 1:04:40Karen Kilgariff?

  She finally dies.

• 1:04:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Well, not one.

• 1:04:43Karen Kilgariff?

  So Otto asks Emma number three, "Please watch over Emma number two until he is officially a widower and can propose to her." All that's to say, that could be what the $50 is for. I'm reading this like I've never read it before. It's such a joy. So, in early 1913, Emma number two meets a young German law school. They really love to keep to themselves, don't they?

• 1:05:09Karen Kilgariff?

  A young German law school graduate named Martin Dashil. They first cross paths as passengers on a ship heading back to the States from Germany. And by the time that ship docks in New York City, they're engaged.

• 1:05:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, shit.

• 1:05:24Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. She's like, "I really love him and I don't love that other guy."

• 1:05:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. That's how, that's how easy it was.

• 1:05:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. Just a few weeks later, on April 8, 1913, Emma number two marries Martin and immediately leaves San Antonio to move in with him in New York City. So, she seems, yeah, that's a good one, too. It's a great city.

• 1:05:45Karen Kilgariff?

  Seems to have no problem leaving Otto behind. So...

• 1:05:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Sure.

• 1:05:49Karen Kilgariff?

  That's tough. But that's not true for Otto.

• 1:05:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:53Karen Kilgariff?

  When he learns of this unexpected departure, he loses it. He was dead-set on marrying Emma number two, just the moment his wife died. And he's the kind of man that he's very used to getting exactly what he wants. So he starts dropping by the cottage where Emma number three still lives, and he wastes no time professing his love for Emma number three.

• 1:06:18Karen Kilgariff?

  There's your solution.

• 1:06:21Karen Kilgariff?

  He even tells her that he's willing to divorce his current wife, Emma number one, right then and there, so they can be married. And he says that he will have his lawyers handle everything, and they can just go on a big vacation until the scandal blows over.

• 1:06:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Great. Any Emma Will Do, is what this is called.

• 1:06:38Karen Kilgariff?

  For real. I was like, this is a combination of Newt Gingrich and Ted Cruz. But...

• 1:06:45Karen Kilgariff?

  Let's not be political. Not tonight. Not tonight.

• 1:06:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Not in Texas.

• 1:06:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Some people love to leave town.

• 1:06:56Karen Kilgariff?

  Here's the thing. Emma number three tells Otto, "Hey, no thanks. I do not want to marry you." She says, she will later say she was put off by the whole idea and said, quote, "I couldn't think of leaving a sick wife behind to regret." End quote.

• 1:07:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, she has morals.

• 1:07:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my God.

• 1:07:15Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. So what's interesting is that she, Emma number three, is willing to have an affair with him, though.

• 1:07:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, yeah. Got it.

• 1:07:22Karen Kilgariff?

  So Otto goes back to his same routine. He stops by the cottage once a week.

• 1:07:27Georgia Hardstark?

  He doesn't even have to go anywhere new.

• 1:07:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Doesn't care. He doesn't have to learn a new name. He's right in there. Simple, easy, sexy. So...

• 1:07:37Georgia Hardstark?

  It's gotta feel great, to be the third one, just like, well, this...

• 1:07:41Karen Kilgariff?

  Whatever.

• 1:07:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Eventually, Emma number three actually develops real feelings for Otto. And she will later say, quote, "I tried to keep my love down, but it kept growing." Keep it down.

• 1:07:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Keep it down.

• 1:07:55Karen Kilgariff?

  Keep it down.

• 1:07:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Off the couch. Off the couch. Keep it off the couch. It's like a dog. I tried to keep him down.

• 1:08:00Karen Kilgariff?

  Down. Down, Emma.

• 1:08:03Karen Kilgariff?

  But, in May of 1914, which is about a year into the Emma number three Otto affairs beginning, his energy changes. We've all been there. This happens right before Otto and Emma number one are about to go on their annual trip back to Germany, which lasts for six months. And unlike the previous year, he does not make arrangements to have Emma number three join them overseas. Big red flag.

• 1:08:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:30Karen Kilgariff?

  So before the Kaylars head over, Otto comes to Emma, and he gives her two bank notes, I'm sorry, Emma number three, he gives her two bank notes worth $10,000 each.

• 1:08:43Karen Kilgariff?

  $700,000 in today's money.

• 1:08:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay. Wow.

• 1:08:47Karen Kilgariff?

  Otto explains this money is to protect her financially in case something happens to him while he's abroad.

• 1:08:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Like, I stopped loving you?

• 1:08:55Karen Kilgariff?

  Like, I just don't like you anymore.

• 1:08:58Karen Kilgariff?

  But a more jaded person would say, this is breakup money. Doubling is hush money. Which would make sense, since at the time, the United States is heading toward prohibition. So... Noah! Stop it. Someone had, someone had a specialty beverage outside.

• 1:09:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Couple.

• 1:09:19Karen Kilgariff?

  Wow, prohibition! Carrie Nation's here, ladies and gentlemen. Enjoy.

• 1:09:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Here we go. Otto is spending a lot of his time having to lobby lawmakers about the sanctity of beer.

• 1:09:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, sure. I forgot about that part.

• 1:09:36Karen Kilgariff?

  Right?

• 1:09:36Georgia Hardstark?

  And all the Emmas.

• 1:09:37Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, all the Emmas. So he's like, going to the, to the, his, you know, his government representatives, and he's like, "We love beer, we love Jesus, we love whatever thing will make you believe that we're good people and we can keep doing business."

• 1:09:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 1:09:52Karen Kilgariff?

  He has to maintain the best image possible for the future of the brewery.

• 1:09:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Of beer.

• 1:09:58Karen Kilgariff?

  And all of his other financial interests. So trying to buy Emma number three's cooperation and silence as he tries to crab walk sideways out of the affair is very likely what this money is about.

• 1:10:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 1:10:11Karen Kilgariff?

  But he makes a terrible mistake. Do you want to guess what it is?

• 1:10:14Georgia Hardstark?

  He forgot to sign the check.

• 1:10:18Karen Kilgariff?

  That old trick. He, he just leaves and ghosts her entirely and will not talk to her. He doesn't make a single attempt to reach out to her. He doesn't write a letter, doesn't send a postcard.

• 1:10:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay. Like, how many attempts were there back then, to write a letter?

• 1:10:33Karen Kilgariff?

  I guess you could maybe try to invent the telegraph, if it hasn't been invented already.

• 1:10:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Smoke signals. I don't know.

• 1:10:39Karen Kilgariff?

  You could just start a rumor and hope it gets to America.

• 1:10:44Karen Kilgariff?

  And this is when Emma three realizes that she's been dumped, and she is devastated. And this is why it is so important to keep context in mind when you're, for example, hooking up with a man you met while he was hooking up with your roommate, who, when she dumped him, immediately came to you and offered to divorce his sickly, bedridden wife and leave town to avoid the scandal. Sorry. Oh, thanks.

• 1:11:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Thanks.

• 1:11:10Georgia Hardstark?

  There were no clues.

• 1:11:12Karen Kilgariff?

  She had no idea this was gonna happen. I thought he was amazing. Anyway, Emma number three is devastated and probably very pissed. So when the Kahlers return from their long vacation that October, Emma number three hires a private detective to follow Otto around.

• 1:11:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Ooh, I've never done that. Thank fucking god.

• 1:11:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Really?

• 1:11:32Georgia Hardstark?

  No. My friend and I have stalked someone together, but I didn't hire someone. And I was 19. It was cute.

• 1:11:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Where'd you have to follow him? Where was he going?

• 1:11:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Uh, just, no, it didn't really happen.

• 1:11:46Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, come on.

• 1:11:47Georgia Hardstark?

  No, I mean, yeah, I was like, oh my god, there he is with his girlfriend. He didn't tell me he had a fucking girlfriend, like that kind of thing.

• 1:11:54Karen Kilgariff?

  Wow.

• 1:11:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. Like, you know, I'd go to dance clubs and stuff that I knew.

• 1:11:57Karen Kilgariff?

  And then did you walk up and be like, "Willoughby"? Did you do one of those?

• 1:12:02Georgia Hardstark?

  I did. I mean, yeah.

• 1:12:04Karen Kilgariff?

  We all did. I just love that she's hiring a private detective with basically his money to follow him around.

• 1:12:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Sure.

• 1:12:11Karen Kilgariff?

  To bust him. So, um, it seems the P.I. confirms that those suspicions are correct because Emma number three sends a telegram to Emma number two in New York City saying exactly that.

• 1:12:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 1:12:24Karen Kilgariff?

  So he's got another young Emma on the line. So this is an awkward scenario. Emma number two is also Otto's ex-girlfriend, so gross. Sloppy seconds, but Emma number three will later say that her friend, Emma number two, simply, quote, "felt sorry for me," which seems to be true because Emma number two takes a trip down to San Antonio to be there for her heartbroken friend.

• 1:12:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, that's nice.

• 1:12:50Karen Kilgariff?

  I know, right?

• 1:12:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:52Karen Kilgariff?

  So now, it's November of 1914.

• 1:12:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, right. Okay.

• 1:12:56Karen Kilgariff?

  What?

• 1:12:57Georgia Hardstark?

  We're back at the...

• 1:12:58Karen Kilgariff?

  We're back.

• 1:12:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 1:13:00Karen Kilgariff?

  So it's November 1914. Emma number two has arrived in San Antonio. It's the afternoon of November 12th. She's, um, she goes to the San Antonio Brewing Association to see her old, rich ex. And during this meeting, she, Emma number two, asks Otto to stop by the cottage that night to meet with Emma number three, and he agrees.

• 1:13:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 1:13:23Karen Kilgariff?

  Shortly after he arrives, it all goes sideways. According to Emma number three, Otto immediately walks into her bedroom, tries to kiss her. She pushes him away because she's still so angry with him. She hired a private investigator to follow him around.

• 1:13:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, she's pissed.

• 1:13:40Karen Kilgariff?

  This situation escalates to Otto yelling at Emma number three, calling her, quote, "sick and crazy." And Emma, I thought, I thought that's how you liked him, Otto?

• 1:13:52Karen Kilgariff?

  "Just a little bit of milk." And Emma, Emma number three yells back, quote, "God will punish you for all you have done." And Emma number three says that Otto then grabs her and shakes her, but she manages to get away and run into an adjoining room because that's where she keeps her gun.

• 1:14:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, shit.

• 1:14:12Karen Kilgariff?

  And this is when Emma number two runs over to the neighbor's house screaming for help. Back in the cottage, according to Emma number three, who is the only one, whoever gets to say what happened, she heads back into that bedroom, but now Otto's standing there, like, with his gun trained on her, and she's thinking he's gonna shoot her, so she fires several times, and 58-year-old Otto Koehler, 58.

• 1:14:41Karen Kilgariff?

  Like, 97-year-old, oh, I'm sorry, 58-year-old Otto Koehler is shot in the head, neck, and chest.

• 1:14:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Damn.

• 1:14:52Karen Kilgariff?

  So when Emma number three realizes that this man is dead, she claims that she tries to shoot herself, but she misses. And...

• 1:15:01Georgia Hardstark?

  You'd think she wasn't a good shot, but guess what?

• 1:15:04Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, it's pretty good when it's going this way, not that great when it's coming back this way. A district attorney will later say, quote, "Your aim was better at Mr. Kahler than with yourself."

• 1:15:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:17Karen Kilgariff?

  "That's right, sir." So Emma number three grabs a knife and slashes her wrists, but Emma number two and the neighbors run through the door right at that moment. They save her, and when the police arrive, Emma number three tells them, quote, "I am sorry, but I had to kill him."

• 1:15:33Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 1:15:34Karen Kilgariff?

  She tells the police that to their face.

• 1:15:38Georgia Hardstark?

  A scorned Emma, you know?

• 1:15:40Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. Don't fuck with those Emmas. Both she and Emma number two are arrested on the spot.

• 1:15:44Georgia Hardstark?

  No.

• 1:15:45Karen Kilgariff?

  So after Otto Koehler is officially pronounced dead, the authorities decide that it's best not to tell Emma number one, Emma Kahler, because they're afraid the enormity of this situation will kill her immediately.

• 1:15:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, there's a lot of details to find out at that moment.

• 1:16:01Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:02Georgia Hardstark?

  They're like, let's not.

• 1:16:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. It's going to definitely inspire a bunch of movement, that's for sure. She was like, "What?"

• 1:16:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. She's been so still for so long.

• 1:16:13Karen Kilgariff?

  So still. It's crack, crack, crack.

• 1:16:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:17Karen Kilgariff?

  So she is not informed about her husband's death for an entire week.

• 1:16:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 1:16:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. They just put it off. They're like, "I don't know. I don't feel like telling her." So since the Kahlers don't have children, Otto's brothers from out of town and his business associates step in to handle his affairs, and they do it very quietly because they're trying everything they can to avoid scandal because now everything is on the line. Along with prohibition looming and the San Antonio Brewing Association lobbying hard to protect its business, World War I is raging overseas, so anti-German sentiment is at an all-time high in America, except for at this show that I have started tonight.

• 1:17:00Karen Kilgariff?

  So a shocking extramarital love triangle murder involving a multimillionaire beer executive where every player has a German surname is the ultimate PR disaster. And not just for the brewery, it's bad for anyone whose business interests are tied up with Otto's, and he has many rich and powerful business interests. So the situation has to be handled very, very carefully. So two of Otto's friends step in to act as Emma two and three's lawyers. The dead man's friends are the lawyers.

• 1:17:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 1:17:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Right away, they get the charges against Emma number two dropped, and her involvement in the whole saga is scrubbed.

• 1:17:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Doesn't sound like she had much involvement to begin with, right?

• 1:17:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, she just, yeah, she's, she's fucked an old guy.

• 1:17:47Karen Kilgariff?

  She's like, "Do I have to pay for this forever? Can I just have my life?" She actually doesn't have to testify. She goes back to New York, returns to a quiet life with her husband. And this is a huge win for Otto's colleagues because they don't want any salacious information affecting their bottom lines. The next insane thing that happens is newspaper reports from right after the murder claim that Otto's friends and family do not want to press charges for his murder.

• 1:18:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 1:18:15Karen Kilgariff?

  So the problem with that is that, you know, on the scene, Emma three was like, "I had to kill him." "I fucking had to kill him."

• 1:18:22Georgia Hardstark?

  This is why you keep your mouth shut.

• 1:18:24Karen Kilgariff?

  Zip it. Talk to no, no one.

• 1:18:28Karen Kilgariff?

  So there's no avoiding it. All powerful German connections aside, she must stand trial. And that trial is set to begin on February 1st, 1915, but, and I have to say, I do kind of love this. She's a no-show.

• 1:18:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Oops, she lived eight minutes away and she didn't show up.

• 1:18:46Karen Kilgariff?

  Nope, she's like, "Ugh, I cannot go to my murder trial today." "Just don't feel like it. Let's get high, listen to records."

• 1:18:57Karen Kilgariff?

  Her lawyer, who's an old friend of Otto's, stands up in court and reads a letter that she allegedly wrote claiming that Emma Bumgartner, that's Emma number three, has left San Antonio and gone back to Germany to serve as a nurse for the soldiers in World War I.

• 1:19:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 1:19:12Karen Kilgariff?

  That's passive aggression.

• 1:19:15Karen Kilgariff?

  It's believed that Emma number three has been strong-armed into doing this to ensure that she cannot testify. The problem with that is that when she arrives in Germany, they see that she's a naturalized American citizen, and they do not want her, and they send her back.

• 1:19:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Fuck.

• 1:19:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Do, do. Emma number three doesn't return to San Antonio right away, though. She goes to New York and lives there for a couple of years.

• 1:19:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Emma number two was like, "Get this fucking bitch away from me."

• 1:19:42Karen Kilgariff?

  "You are the craziest friend I should have never made."

• 1:19:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:49Karen Kilgariff?

  All the while, Emma number three is desperate to clear her name. So in October of 1917, about three years after Otto's murder, she goes back to Texas, gets a new lawyer, good, and returns, and turns herself into the police. But there's now a new twist in this twist-filled case, an Emma-filled case. Otto's widow, the first Emma, Emma Kahler, has since her husband's murder made a miraculous recovery.

• 1:20:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Emma number one, back at it?

• 1:20:19Karen Kilgariff?

  Yep.

• 1:20:20Georgia Hardstark?

  All right. She's like, "Wow, I suddenly don't want to hide in my bed all day."

• 1:20:24Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, it's so weird.

• 1:20:26Georgia Hardstark?

  "I suddenly don't hate my life anymore."

• 1:20:28Karen Kilgariff?

  "And I don't want any more milk." We don't know how or why it's possible specifically, but writer Robert L. Gully has posited that maybe Dr. Tolman and his quack treatments was actually contributing to her years-long condition with his, you know, milk and not moving.

• 1:20:50Karen Kilgariff?

  And her health improving, quote, "may be attributable simply to the cessation of Dr. Tolman's treatment." So Gully, the writer, also entertains the theory that Otto knew these treatments weren't helping his wife. In fact, he saw that they weakened and incapacitated her, and his, quote, "dalliances contributed to his enthusiasm for Dr. Tolman and his cures."

• 1:21:13Georgia Hardstark?

  We think so. That's what we all think.

• 1:21:15Karen Kilgariff?

  We think that's kind of what happened all the time. Anyway, so on January 14th, 1918, Emma number three, her trial finally kicks off, and it receives national media attention. Here's an article about it. So, look, there's Otto, Emma number three, there's Emma number two, right there.

• 1:21:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Number, okay.

• 1:21:38Karen Kilgariff?

  That's her haunted. She looks haunted, doesn't she?

• 1:21:41Georgia Hardstark?

  She looks fucking over it.

• 1:21:42Karen Kilgariff?

  She's like, "Fuck."

• 1:21:44Georgia Hardstark?

  "Why did I get these matching Emma tattoos with this bitch?"

• 1:21:49Karen Kilgariff?

  It was fun at first, but, oh my god.

• 1:21:51Georgia Hardstark?

  I now have EM, and she has MA, and I don't even want to hold my arm up next to her.

• 1:21:56Karen Kilgariff?

  I just need to turn it into a weird sunflower or something because I don't like this.

• 1:22:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:01Karen Kilgariff?

  Also, I love that they, in this article, it just included Otto's mansion.

• 1:22:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Shit.

• 1:22:06Karen Kilgariff?

  It's just like, it didn't happen there. They're just like, "He lives in this fucking huge house." "Look at this guy." Oh, and the headline there, it reads, "Millionaire San Antonio Brewer Slain by Pretty Nurse in Love Mystery Which Grows Deeper."

• 1:22:21Karen Kilgariff?

  It also claims that Emma number three is the one who shot Otto because she believed he was going to shoot Emma number two, which doesn't line up with Emma number three's story. So that's what the mystery is all about. Anyway, at this point, Emma number one knows everything, not just the fact of her husband's murder, but then all the affairs, Emma, Emma, Emma, Emma, which is hard enough for her. But then considering Emma number two was supposed to be a very close friend of hers and someone that her caretaker.

• 1:22:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, shit.

• 1:22:53Karen Kilgariff?

  It's a betrayal upon betrayal on top of grief with a little bit of shame, because we always got to do shame. And so when the trial starts, Emma number three makes a big impression in court. She's reportedly dressed in a quote, "plain brown coat suit." I'm so sorry, I didn't really put that together. She makes a big impression. She's dressed in plain brown. But I think what they meant is she's got a black hat with a veil over it.

• 1:23:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh.

• 1:23:21Karen Kilgariff?

  So people are like, what?

• 1:23:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Goth.

• 1:23:23Karen Kilgariff?

  And then on the stage, she's a goth. And on the stand, she delivers what reporters describe as, quote, "the story of her life, a story of one of life's unfortunates." There was too many ones in lives in there. That was much, much too hard. Okay, so Emma number three's testimony is emotionally resonant, and it's maybe even a bit theatrical. At times, people in the gallery clap after she testifies. That's not allowed.

• 1:23:47Georgia Hardstark?

  You're not supposed to do that.

• 1:23:48Karen Kilgariff?

  I don't know that. At other times, they audibly weep.

• 1:23:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my God. A brown suit? What are you doing with a black veil?

• 1:24:02Karen Kilgariff?

  In the end, Emma number three paints a very convincing picture of killing Otto strictly in self-defense, and she closes her testimony by confidently saying, quote, "I've never doubted I would be acquitted."

• 1:24:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Mic drop.

• 1:24:17Karen Kilgariff?

  And then she pieces out, flips her veil up, sticks her tongue out. And on January 21st, 1918, the jury finds her not guilty.

• 1:24:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Shit.

• 1:24:28Karen Kilgariff?

  So she... That's what we call manifesting, ladies and gentlemen. Vision board, say it, see it, live it. Shortly after Otto's death, as Emma Kahler's health rapidly improves, she gets into his many business dealings, including the brewery.

• 1:24:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Girl.

• 1:24:47Karen Kilgariff?

  So at first, she isn't running the business, but she is its largest stakeholder, and she has genuine say over how it's run. But by 1921... By 1921, she's serving as its president. And by this point... But this is what's cool. So prohibition, of course, gets passed, but Emma, so she's like, we have to keep this brewery running, and we have to keep all these employees, you know, like, employed. So what she does is pivot the business away from beer. She starts bottling water, juice, soda, ice cream, butter, and even a near beer. They make like fake beer, non-alcoholic beer, a drink called La Perla.

• 1:25:32Karen Kilgariff?

  So it's like, it's a little reference.

• 1:25:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:35Karen Kilgariff?

  She promises her staff that she will not lay off one single employee during this very tense time in the industry.

• 1:25:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 1:25:42Karen Kilgariff?

  So when... Right? Pretty nice. So when she has to, she invests her own money back into the brewery to keep it going.

• 1:25:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Good for her.

• 1:25:51Karen Kilgariff?

  During prohibition, most of the breweries in Texas go under, not the San Antonio Brewing Association. Emma Kahler keeps it alive, and when prohibition ends, they haven't missed a beat. They go right back to brewing beer, and their pearl beer is immediately the most popular beer again.

• 1:26:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my God.

• 1:26:12Karen Kilgariff?

  She goes right back.

• 1:26:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Love it.

• 1:26:15Karen Kilgariff?

  Let's take a look at Emma and her beautiful pearl beer.

• 1:26:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. Yes. Oh, look at that pearl necklace.

• 1:26:26Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:26:28Georgia Hardstark?

  That costs a lot of money.

• 1:26:29Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:26:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Good for her.

• 1:26:31Karen Kilgariff?

  I think that dress...

• 1:26:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Everything.

• 1:26:33Karen Kilgariff?

  It's, she's clearly dripping in diamonds and pearls.

• 1:26:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Diamonds.

• 1:26:38Karen Kilgariff?

  And you're like, hey, y'all.

• 1:26:40Georgia Hardstark?

  And we audibly weep.

• 1:26:41Karen Kilgariff?

  Hey, y'all drinking this beer? I mean, hell, yes. I mean, truly, from years of like, God, I wish I could get up. And now she's like, give me that fucking beer right now. So eventually, Emma turns the reins of the business over to her nephews, who take over the brewery once she retires, and it's eventually bought out by a little company you might have heard of, Pabst.

• 1:27:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh.

• 1:27:07Karen Kilgariff?

  On April 26th, 1943, Emma Kahler passes away in San Antonio at the age of 85. And... Don't applaud for that. You're disgusting. More than half a century later, around the year 2000, the San Antonio Brewing Association shudders once and for all. The production of pearl beer is halted for about two decades. And then in 2020, Pabst relaunches it on a much smaller scale. So you can get it, I think. Not long after the brewery, I didn't look that up. Not long after the brewery shuts down, a developer buys the property and turns it into a commercial center now known as The Pearl.

• 1:27:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, wow.

• 1:27:47Karen Kilgariff?

  So it has shops and restaurants...

• 1:27:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Love it.

• 1:27:51Karen Kilgariff?

  And a farmer's market. And the centerpiece of The Pearl is a world-class hotel that opens in 2015 called Hotel Emma. Can you look at that?

• 1:28:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh.

• 1:28:04Karen Kilgariff?

  This is the lobby.

• 1:28:07Georgia Hardstark?

  That's incredible.

• 1:28:08Karen Kilgariff?

  So that's the original. Yeah, the stuff from the brewery, but that's in the fucking lobby.

• 1:28:12Georgia Hardstark?

  You guys, good job.

• 1:28:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:28:14Georgia Hardstark?

  I love it.

• 1:28:15Karen Kilgariff?

  People get so drunk at the Hotel Emma. This hotel has done an amazing job preserving many of the original brewery features, as well as its lesser-known history. Today, at the Hotel Emma, you can order a cocktail at its gorgeous bar that honors all three Emmas in one glass. It's called the Three Emmas.

• 1:28:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my God. Wow.

• 1:28:41Karen Kilgariff?

  And the hotel's vice president of marketing, Beth Smith, says, quote, "Grapefruit, the Texas fruit, is part of the base. Emma number one, the wife, is represented with a pearl beer with rose syrup. Emma number two, Emma Dunky, is represented with sherry, and Emma number three, Emma Bergermeister, is gin. We have a little saying that one is great, but three will kill you." And that's the story of the San Antonio beer titan, Otto Koehler. Yeah.

• 1:29:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Excellent. Excellent. That's a nice one. Great job.

• 1:29:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Thank you.

• 1:29:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow. October is the month when being scared is supposed to be fun.

• 1:29:24Karen Kilgariff?

  Terrified in a haunted house? Sure. Your actual house? Absolutely not.

• 1:29:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Feel safe in your home with SimpliSafe.

• 1:29:30Karen Kilgariff?

  SimpliSafe is designed to help stop intruders before they get inside.

• 1:29:34Georgia Hardstark?

  I recently got an alert from my camera outside that there is like someone prowling around late at night, and of course, I got freaked out. I opened my camera, and it was a big spider dangling in front of the camera, which was terrifying in itself, but such a relief. And I love that I know that it works. You know what I mean? Like, it's so much better a spider than an actual person, but I'll be prepared.

• 1:29:57Karen Kilgariff?

  All the answers are on your phone. You don't have to worry and sit there and wring your hands.

• 1:30:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Join the more than 6 million people who entrust SimpliSafe with their home security.

• 1:30:05Karen Kilgariff?

  Right now, save 60% off with professional monitoring when you visit simplisafe.com/fav.

• 1:30:10Georgia Hardstark?

  That's simplisafe.com/fav.

• 1:30:13Karen Kilgariff?

  And when you order, please write in "my favorite murder" in the checkout survey. It lets them know that we sent you, and it really helps support the show.

• 1:30:19Georgia Hardstark?

  SimpliSafe, ahead of crime in real time.

• 1:30:21Karen Kilgariff?

  Goodbye.

• 1:30:23Speaker 01

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• 1:32:00Karen Kilgariff?

  Do we have time for a home tour?

• 1:32:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Let's do it. Let's do it.

• 1:32:05Karen Kilgariff?

  No, yeah.

• 1:32:11Karen Kilgariff?

  The office.

• 1:32:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Did somebody say past?

• 1:32:20Karen Kilgariff?

  Vince Sabril, everybody. Vince Sabril is right here.

• 1:32:27Georgia Hardstark?

  I come bearing no anecdote tonight. I don't have any anecdotes to share. I'm just here to facilitate and make sure that the person you picked is lucid.

• 1:32:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Do your best.

• 1:32:38Karen Kilgariff?

  Thanks so much. Okay, we're gonna tell you a couple of rules real quick. I know that everybody gets very excited about this part, but you should adhere to some rules.

• 1:32:47Georgia Hardstark?

  We're gonna do a hometown. Make sure it's from Texas.

• 1:32:49Karen Kilgariff?

  Please. That's what people like. The more local, the better. That's great. Also, don't be so drunk. You can't tell your own story. Don't read off paper.

• 1:32:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Beginning, middle, end.

• 1:32:58Karen Kilgariff?

  Beginning, middle, end. Make sure it's good. And good luck. And good luck, ladies and gentlemen. George is gonna pick the hometown right now.

• 1:33:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Let's see. Okay, yeah, and the costume, whatever it is. Come here.

• 1:33:12Karen Kilgariff?

  What's your name?

• 1:33:13Georgia Hardstark?

  My name's Erin.

• 1:33:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Hi, Erin.

• 1:33:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Is that a beaver?

• 1:33:16Karen Kilgariff?

  Nice to meet you. This is Erin, everybody. Erin.

• 1:33:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Nice to meet you. Tell us about your costume. Okay, so my story revolved. I was wearing this costume when I carried a dead body one time.

• 1:33:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, my God.

• 1:33:31Georgia Hardstark?

  You picked her. You were pointing at her. So this is all on you.

• 1:33:35Karen Kilgariff?

  Is it like a reference to anything?

• 1:33:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Well, so I thought it was a moose costume this whole time, but I think it's a reindeer. I was gonna go Bucky Beaver, but I don't think so. No. Okay, so this happened.

• 1:33:48Karen Kilgariff?

  You guys are just wearing pajamas, right? That's kind of what you did?

• 1:33:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. No, I'm staying with my older sister like 15 minutes away. I grew up in Austin. And she was like, oh my, I was like, I'm gonna try to jump up and I'm trying to say my story. And she goes, and what are you wearing?

• 1:34:04Georgia Hardstark?

  I really second guessed it, you know? But here you are. But, okay, this, this happened in 2021, one of the two like big Texas freezes that we had. This was like February 16th. Y'all know what I'm talking about? Okay, so Valentine's Day of that year, my, my roommate, her boyfriend stood her up on Valentine's Day. Very sad. Blasted paramour through the entire house. Just running around. And I was like, go Kelly, like get it. And then she kicked the step and I heard a snap.

• 1:34:38Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, and she died and you had to carry her body? That's terrible.

• 1:34:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Unfortunately, that's just a small part of the story. It has nothing to do with her, but that's a reference. Okay. So then two days later, I hate, I hate like not control, you know, being out of control. And I, I was planning on going to visit my twin sister in North Carolina. Okay. But all the flights were canceled. So all my friends were like, we're gonna go to a place that has power and warmth. And I said, y'all go. I'm gonna stay overnight and I'm gonna be in the warmth. Okay. So I'm home alone. It's freezing. I started a fire, whatever. Next morning, all, so all my roommates are gone. I get the knock on my door early in the morning. And I'm like, what the heck is that? I'm packing to get out of this place, you know? Opens the door. It's my neighbor and she says, I think my husband's dead.

• 1:35:30Karen Kilgariff?

  How old is she?

• 1:35:32Georgia Hardstark?

  She's about, oh, Betty, she was like, she was 78.

• 1:35:37Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 1:35:38Georgia Hardstark?

  78.

• 1:35:38Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 1:35:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Beautiful, wonderful. She was wearing flip flops. And like, I was like, and okay, and so I were, so all night, and there was no power. So I was wearing this, sweatpants, dolphin slippers, a bomber jacket from World War II that I just got gifted. And so I, I'm not thinking about anything. So the first thing I said, oh my gosh, come in, come in. And she, I'm like, oh my gosh, I give her my dolphin slippers. I give her my bomber jacket. I'm thinking like her, her husband died overnight, you know? And then she goes, so your roommate, uh, broke her foot? I was like, Betty, like, what?

• 1:36:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Betty focused, Betty.

• 1:36:16Georgia Hardstark?

  And so what happened was, uh, I was like, oh my gosh, it's right now. So I give her that. I said, I'm gonna go over. So I'm running over. I feel like I'm in Fargo. Like I'm wearing, I'm on, right now since I gave that away, I'm a moose in sweatpants. And I'm running across and I have 911 on the phone on hold for four minutes. Okay. And I find him in a lawn chair in the living room. And like, he's still alive. I couldn't give him CPR because like, he was like a 6'2" dude. And it would have been dangerous to put him down on the lawn chair on like this kind of ground, you know?

• 1:36:47Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:36:48Georgia Hardstark?

  And so I'm just like waiting there. And finally, uh, the.

• 1:36:53Karen Kilgariff?

  EMTs?

• 1:36:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes, that's what they're called. They come in there, take like seven minutes to put on their COVID gear. And I'm like, like he's in there.

• 1:37:00Karen Kilgariff?

  No, I think that's important. That is important.

• 1:37:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes, it was important. And then Betty comes over. So she has the dolphin slippers and the, and the jacket. And I'm like this. And then the whole time, they're trying to save his life. And she goes like, I told him to go to the doctor. I just said that. And I'm just like. She's mad at him. And she goes, yeah, but the thing was, when he died, she was making tea.

• 1:37:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, you know, grief has all kinds of forms.

• 1:37:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, it does. It does.

• 1:37:26Karen Kilgariff?

  It comes out in different ways.

• 1:37:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:37:27Karen Kilgariff?

  How did you get to carry this man?

• 1:37:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. Oh, sorry. Yes.

• 1:37:31Karen Kilgariff?

  That's okay.

• 1:37:32Georgia Hardstark?

  So, so along with the four minutes on hold, it was because of how devastating like this time was. Like Texas, Texas homes and all that are not built for this kind of weather. And so, um, there was a lot of tragedy. Like the reason we called, they didn't have any children. And we called all these funeral homes. So we're like, we need someone. And no one could pick him up for like a couple of days.

• 1:37:55Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 1:37:56Georgia Hardstark?

  It was horrible.

• 1:37:57Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:37:57Georgia Hardstark?

  And we finally found one that could pick him up in like six hours. But they finally sent someone and they sent, uh, someone that looks like the beautiful late actor, like Leslie Jones.

• 1:38:12Karen Kilgariff?

  Leslie Jones, who was on SNL?

• 1:38:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. Like this tall.

• 1:38:15Karen Kilgariff?

  She's alive.

• 1:38:16Georgia Hardstark?

  No, wait. Who am I?

• 1:38:19Karen Kilgariff?

  Leslie Jordan.

• 1:38:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Leslie Jordan.

• 1:38:20Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:38:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Leslie Jones. Also, an amazing.

• 1:38:27Karen Kilgariff?

  You gotta wrap her.

• 1:38:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Love her.

• 1:38:29Karen Kilgariff?

  Wrap it up.

• 1:38:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, okay. This tall. Okay. To carry the big man.

• 1:38:33Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, yes, yes, yes.

• 1:38:34Georgia Hardstark?

  And so he says, I'm gonna need a couple able bodied women. And so we had to carry him. Luckily, he was a veteran. So we got to put the flag over him. Yeah. His name was Dean James. A wonderful man.

• 1:38:48Karen Kilgariff?

  All right.

• 1:38:50Georgia Hardstark?

  We put him in there and.

• 1:38:52Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, good job getting him.

• 1:38:53Georgia Hardstark?

  She didn't kill him.

• 1:38:54Karen Kilgariff?

  Helping. Okay, good.

• 1:38:55Georgia Hardstark?

  She didn't kill him. She was making tea. She was making tea. She just was mad that he never went to the doctor.

• 1:39:02Karen Kilgariff?

  You know, you did, you just earned yourself an Uncrustable, my friend.

• 1:39:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my gosh.

• 1:39:08Georgia Hardstark?

  And a hot dog.

• 1:39:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Amazing job.

• 1:39:17Karen Kilgariff?

  Great job. Was it a donkey?

• 1:39:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Donkey.

• 1:39:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 1:39:25Karen Kilgariff?

  You're not gonna give this?

• 1:39:26Georgia Hardstark?

  I don't know. It got, it got lost in the.

• 1:39:28Karen Kilgariff?

  I think you deserve this too.

• 1:39:32Georgia Hardstark?

  We have, uh, stress hot dogs. The merch booth. Because of course we do.

• 1:39:39Karen Kilgariff?

  Great job. Unbelievable. What a, what a hang.

• 1:39:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:39:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Texas, Austin. Wow. Thank you for two incredible shows and there's.

• 1:39:50Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, can I just say this? We, when we very first started this podcast and we very first went on tour, our touring agent was like, here's the places you have to hit because this is where you have the most listeners. And when he said Texas, we were like, no, that's crazy.

• 1:40:05Georgia Hardstark?

  And Texas was like number one. I'm like, they don't like us.

• 1:40:07Karen Kilgariff?

  There's no way they like us.

• 1:40:09Georgia Hardstark?

  We're from Los Angeles.

• 1:40:12Karen Kilgariff?

  So this, we knew this tour, we wanted it to be a little shorter than our usual that are insane and never stop.

• 1:40:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 1:40:19Karen Kilgariff?

  So if we're gonna come back to Texas, sorry, we want to come to Austin. So thank you so much. We love this town.

• 1:40:26Georgia Hardstark?

  We do.

• 1:40:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Thank you, guys.

• 1:40:30Karen Kilgariff?

  We're just so happy to be here. Thank you for being with us through all the craziness, all these years. It's been almost 10 years of this podcast. And we really appreciate all of you and your passion and your love and your wonderful anecdotes. Stay sexy.

• 1:40:50Karen Kilgariff?

  Bye, Austin. Elvis, do you want a cookie?

• 1:41:01Karen Kilgariff?

  This has been an Exactly Right Production.

• 1:41:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Our managing producer is Molly Smith.

• 1:41:05Karen Kilgariff?

  Our consulting producer is Kate Schellbach.

• 1:41:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Our creative lead is Allison Agosti.

• 1:41:09Karen Kilgariff?

  Our associate producer is Tessa Hughes and our editor is Aristotle Acevedo.

• 1:41:13Georgia Hardstark?

  This episode was mixed by Leona Scolacci.

• 1:41:15Karen Kilgariff?

  Our researchers are Maren McLaughlin and Ally Elkin.

• 1:41:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Email your hometowns to [email protected] and follow the show on Instagram at MyFavoriteMurder.

• 1:41:24Karen Kilgariff?

  Listen to My Favorite Murder on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 1:41:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Or watch new episodes every week on Netflix. Search for My Favorite Murder, add us to your list, and hit the double thumbs up button. Goodbye.

• 1:41:45Speaker 01

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• 1:42:54Karen Kilgariff?

  I'm Lacey Mosley, author, actor, standup comedian, creator, and host of Scam Goddess Podcast, the true crime comedy podcast, all about robbery, fraud, and those who practice it. Each week I bring on an amazing guest. Ooh, I scammed them. What? I could talk to you for an hour. You're a generational yapper like me. That's why I had to make yapping a job. And now you can catch full episodes of my show on YouTube. Start listening to Scam Goddess on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.