853: The State of Frontend

Scott and Wes dive into the State of Frontend 2024 Survey, breaking down the latest trends, tools, and frameworks shaping the developer ecosystem. Tune in as they react to hot takes on frameworks, state management, hosting, and what’s next for frontend devs! Show Notes 00:00 Welcome to Syntax! 00:53 Brought to you by Sentry.io. 01:15 About the survey. Follow along! State of Frontend Survey 02:10 Frameworks. 06:15 Rendering frameworks. 07:35 State management. 09:14 Other libraries. Just: Dependency-free Utilities. 13:34 Data. Syntax Episode 453. Syntax Episode 833. 16:39 Hosting. AWS Amplify. 19:51 Continuous Integration. 21:30 Micro-frontends. 23:25 Package Managers. pnpm Link Workspace Packages. Corepack. 28:35 JS Runtimes. 29:47 Typescript. 33:13 Browser Technologies. 35:05 What is app property? 38:20 Progressive Web Apps. 40:11 Styling tools. 43:17 Testing. 45:39 Code editors. 49:02 Build tools. 49:17 Linting tools. 50:26 Operating systems. 51:17 The future trends. 54:14 Sick Picks + Shameless Plugs. Sick Picks Scott: Candle Warmer. Wes: Flighty iOS App. Shameless Plugs Scott: Syntax on Bluesky Hit us up on Socials! Syntax: X Instagram Tiktok LinkedIn Threads Wes: X Instagram Tiktok LinkedIn Threads Scott: X Instagram Tiktok LinkedIn Threads Randy: X Instagram YouTube Threads

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Wes Bos?

  Welcome to Syntax. Today, we have the state of front-end survey results, and Scott and I are going to go through it. Some interesting stuff in here in terms of like, what frameworks are people using? How are people writing CSS? It's a really great survey because it kind of gives you a glimpse into what are people actually using and what are people moving towards? And it gives a, there's like, almost 7,000 people have taken, or 6,000 people have taken this response from 139 countries. I think it's a pretty good look at where the industry is at right now. So we're going to go through the result and sort of talk about our surprises and what we think about the future of web dev.

• 0:43Wes Bos?

  My name's Wes. With me, as always, Mr. Scott Tolinski. He's doing great today, probably not as great as it possibly could be. But we want to talk to you real quick about Sentry. Sentry is the error exception performance insight tool. We've heard us talk about them a million times. Basically, you got a website that's buggy, slow, you got issues. Sentry is going to give you insights into why that is and help you fix it. Check it out, sentry.io/syntax.

• 1:14Scott Tolinski?

  Word. One thing I really like about this survey is that it feels like it's out of our bubble a bit, where some of the state of, you know, React or whatever, those tend to feel like a survey that's representative of my bubble in web dev. Yeah. So it's nice to see information from what could be considered like a wider breadth of the industry.

• 1:38Wes Bos?

  Yeah. What survey is, is always going to be like skewed in some direction, but for this one, it seems to skew way heavy Asia, Europe. Like, out of the 6,000 people that replied, 3,000 from Europe, 1,200 from Asia, and then only 1,000 from North America. So I think that is... It's pretty good and like, fair point. I never heard of the survey before, which is, is good. Maybe, maybe it shows a little bit of a different look. So let's start with the framework aspect of this. This is talking about what frameworks have you used in the last year? And also the results of the survey are kind of nice where they're, they're relatively

• 2:22Wes Bos?

  simple. It's just like, did you use it and like it? Did you use it and dislike it? Or, or the opposite? And the most used and liked framework is React coming in at 70% and then 15% use and dislike, which you can kind of expect that. I think that's not very, that surprising, but Svelte is, Svelte's got what? 25% used and like out of all respondents? That seems really high in view. 44.8% use and like, which is great.

• 2:51Scott Tolinski?

  I like this interface where it shows the, like, the darker outline around, because you can see that, like, very clearly at a glance that Svelte has the highest percentage of want to learn in the future.

• 3:03Wes Bos?

  I was gonna point that out, which is, what do people want to learn? Like, what are people using now? React, Svelte and Vue. But what do people want to learn? HTML5 is pretty high as well. Svelte extremely high. I think, well, Svelte the highest one in want to learn. It is.

• 3:19Scott Tolinski?

  It is, it is.

• 3:20Wes Bos?

  It's great.

• 3:21Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah. Oh, yeah. We use it, you know, actually, you know what, one thing I, you know, let's turn into a little Svelte love sesh here, but the one thing I really enjoy most recently about the, the transition to Svelte 5 was that the migration assistant worked on the first try and only gave me like, five files to touch after the fact, which is pretty substantial, given

• 3:43Wes Bos?

  I was surprised.

• 3:44Scott Tolinski?

  the changes. Yeah, it worked really super well. It was maybe the smoothest migration I've done on anything. And I, let's face it, I've done a handful of migrations. What's also interesting here is that HTML5 is number two for want to learn, but also some of the highest for not interested and no opinion and only 7% for used and, and liked. So HTML5 gets like the hype award, right? It has hype, because it's the second most wanting to learn thing, but in reality, but then again, it's new. So 7% is, is probably a big jump up from where it was in the past. It is, it is wild to see. That's something that most people weren't aware of like two or three years ago is now this

• 4:29Scott Tolinski?

  high. Meanwhile, something like Phoenix, which is fairly mature and even like Alpine JS is only at like seven and 1.8%. So, yeah.

• 4:39Wes Bos?

  Ember, poor Ember, man.

• 4:41Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah.

• 4:41Wes Bos?

  I think like LinkedIn is, is one of the biggest users of Ember. I wonder who else is, any big other sites on Ember?

• 4:49Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah. I, did you ever learn Ember? Did you ever pick it up?

• 4:53Wes Bos?

  Slightly. I touched upon it. It was kind of like during the like Angular, you know, we were all kind of coming off of Backbone, looking at Angular and then Ember was, was one of the good big comeups from it. We had dinner with someone worked at LinkedIn at the, after the meetup and he was saying Ember's great, but it's, it's a little bit different. And like, there's not a ton of, of documentation on like bugs and stuff outside of, well luckily, inside of LinkedIn, they can, they can reference all those people because they use it quite a bit internally.

• 5:23Scott Tolinski?

  Man, I, I did my very first, one of the first tutorial courses I ever bought was from, I don't know if you remember, Peep Code.

• 5:31Wes Bos?

  Yes. Yeah.

• 5:33Scott Tolinski?

  I had bought it. I bought a, a course from Peep Code on Ember and I took it on the airplane to somewhere. I forget where, uh, maybe even to, to, yeah, I forget. I, I took it on the airplane somewhere to the whole tutorial course and like left being like, all right, you can do Ember. Yeah. So I can see how this works. Yeah.

• 5:51Wes Bos?

  That's, I learned Express on, uh, from Peep Code as well. He had a really cool tutorial about like making pies and most recent pies and, and web sockets. And I remember watching it on an iPad at the gym. There's, this is like one, you know, like you have like those core moments in your like web development history. You just remember where you were when you learned something. And I was one of them. That's a weird, weird remember that I have.

• 6:15Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah.

• 6:15Wes Bos?

  Uh, but let's talk about rendering frameworks, um, which is like basically you have like React and Svelte and view, but like what frameworks do you use on top of it? Most used, next, and then basically half of that. So next is 52%. Half of that is Nux and Astro coming in and then Svelte Kid at 17%. Remix only 12%, which I'm always surprised at the, the numbers behind Remix, you know? I always think that they would be much larger, but just goes to show that like when something big catches on. It's quite slow to move on to something else.

• 6:52Scott Tolinski?

  Because that said Astro, I mean Astro kind of also showed up. It was one of those ones that you felt like, how are they going to differentiate themselves at first? Being a static site platform, then just like the, the whole thing being you can use any front end framework. To me, that wasn't super compelling until it's really evolved into like, it's just a, maybe one of the smoothest full stack frameworks to work in. And again, Svelte kit has the highest want to learn in the future, which is pretty great for that team. I think it's a good product. Yeah, I don't know too much there. Gatsby with the lowest, that's also not shocking, given that where Gatsby's trajectory has been. I'm surprised it's even at 9.4% of people wanting to learn it, but hey.

• 7:35Scott Tolinski?

  Let's take a look at, at state management because outside of the view and Svelte world, the state management picture is a little bit more complex as we've, we've talked about a lot of times on this show. And so a lot of these are React specific options, except for Pinea, I thought it was Pinea, but at Pinea, I think we had the same conversation last time. Either way, the highest, most used in like is the React context API straight to the dome. That's the highest used in like. I get it. Yeah, it's simple, but I still would want maybe a little something more and more, you know?

• 8:11Wes Bos?

  It just goes to show that like, come on, React, give us, give us something better, you know? The context API, it, yeah, it's okay. Set state, put it in context API, but there's all these like gotchas and downsides to it. But obviously that's what, what people are actually using. Zoo Stand, Redux, Redux Toolkit coming in at a fairly close tied second. And then MobX only at 8%, Joe Thai at 11%. So Zoo Stand, quite a bit more popular than Joe Thai.

• 8:44Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah. Um, that's actually not that DoStand came first and it was kind of one of the first alternate ones. I am surprised that MobX is so low, given at one point felt like it was between Redux and MobX as being the two major choices in the space and Redux, obviously the most popular one. But you'd think after being around for so long and having an approach that's more similar to like, uh, what we're doing in Solid and Vue, that MobX would, yeah, be a little bit higher.

• 9:14Wes Bos?

  Can I quiz you on the next one? Don't look at the other libraries or have you? Okay, so I'm going to quiz you on the next one, which is what other libraries have you used in the last year? So I'm gonna, I'm gonna rattle off the six libraries I have here and you have to guess which is the most used and liked and the most not interested.

• 9:38Scott Tolinski?

  Okay.

• 9:39Wes Bos?

  The, what is the most used and liked library between LowDash, jQuery, Immer, RXJS, Ramda and underscore?

• 9:47Scott Tolinski?

  Jeez, geez, that's a quite, quite a, a bunch of things. So the most used and liked out of all of those?

• 9:56Wes Bos?

  Yeah.

• 9:57Scott Tolinski?

  Gosh, oh, man, that's a tough, uh, because.

• 10:02Wes Bos?

  Or maybe, maybe we'll ask this, what's the most used, uh, not liked or disliked, but just used entirely?

• 10:10Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah, jQuery.

• 10:11Wes Bos?

  This not actually, so jQuery is a, a close second, but LowDash coming in at 70% of used.

• 10:22Scott Tolinski?

  So I can see that.

• 10:24Wes Bos?

  Like maybe we're finally starting to see the like, the slow unused of, of jQuery. I know that like it's been gone for what like 10 years or so, but people still use it. People have existing applications and that's a frustrating thing sometimes about the bubble is people don't realize that like you pick tech and you work with that tech for, for many, many years, especially when it's such a low level choice, like writing all of your JavaScript in jQuery or picking a library like React.

• 10:55Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah, I'm gonna say for the other one, it's it's probably for the least used or whatever. It was like least.

• 11:02Wes Bos?

  The most not interested.

• 11:04Scott Tolinski?

  Most not interested. I'm gonna say immer only because it feels too niche.

• 11:08Wes Bos?

  Yeah, I think immer has the highest no opinion because I don't think anyone even knows what immer is.

• 11:15Scott Tolinski?

  Okay, then what about, um, since since low dash was the highest, then what's the the underscore? We'll say underscore.

• 11:22Wes Bos?

  Yep, it's it's underscore. Yeah, so 30% of people are not interested in learning underscore.

• 11:27Scott Tolinski?

  Which makes sense. I mean.

• 11:29Wes Bos?

  Very close under that is Jake Ray, though.

• 11:31Scott Tolinski?

  I don't even know what I'm using. I would use low dash for today anyways, that I couldn't just hit myself.

• 11:37Wes Bos?

  Yeah, I have like the opinion of low dash is not bad. You just reach for the methods when you need it. And I almost always when I run into somebody using low dash, I think, ah, I could, I could write that in some of the newer methods or whatever. And there are like some weird use cases where you're like, you have to like pick and whatever. But even that there's all these new JavaScript methods that allow you to intersect arrays. Um, finds find which items overlap each other, find which items are not included in either like there's very few use cases unless you're doing some pretty heavy data stuff where where I think you even need it.

• 12:22Wes Bos?

  And that's not to say it's bad. Low dash is is fast and it's it's well tested and all of that stuff, which is great. But when I see it used, I often think, huh, I don't think you needed to pull that in.

• 12:32Scott Tolinski?

  That's how I feel too. And I do reach for just, uh, people who who we've talked about just on this show. Um, we'll link it up in the show notes, but just is a good alternative because you can just grab one or two um, methods or anything that you need straight out of just instead of bringing in a big old platform or something. Okay, cool.

• 12:49Wes Bos?

  That's not true because low dash had for the longest time, you've been able to load just the method you've needed from

• 12:56Scott Tolinski?

  Oh, yeah.

• 12:56Wes Bos?

  dash dash yes, but I I almost do as well. The one time I do reach for it is debouncing and throttling where I'll I'll install just debounce or just throttle and because like I hate writing that myself. It's it's too complex.

• 13:15Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah, and I don't honestly don't know what the sizes are. I think what attracted me to just is the fact that the sizes of all of these things are represented in bytes.

• 13:22Wes Bos?

  Yeah. They're they're published by their own self. You don't have to. It it's not like part of a library where it reaches in for other utilities.

• 13:32Scott Tolinski?

  Word.

• 13:32Wes Bos?

  It's very copy pasteable.

• 13:34Scott Tolinski?

  Let's talk about data. I think data is an important one, how we're bringing in data to our applications. This one's shocking to me. Seventy three percent, the highest used in like there's Axios. I gotta say, why? What are we doing here?

• 13:46Wes Bos?

  Yeah.

• 13:46Scott Tolinski?

  That to me is kind of wild. I just. I just never have needed it. I don't get it. I know you used it and liked it, Wes, in the past. But in the same regard.

• 13:57Wes Bos?

  So we did an entire show on why do people still use Axios, which is episode number four fifty three. Go to syntax.fm forward slash four fifty three. Why do people still use Axios over fetch? And we detail why people still do it. There are some use cases, which is like interceptors and and expired J W T tokens and validation status and all that. But again, I I don't find myself reaching for Axios all that often. But it's higher than native fetch.

• 14:30Scott Tolinski?

  I know. What's up with that?

• 14:33Wes Bos?

  Yeah.

• 14:34Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah. Man, native fetch isn't hard. I get it that there's some niceties from Axios, but like, is it that hard to implement those? That you gotta bring in a library for it?

• 14:43Wes Bos?

  Yeah.

• 14:44Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah.

• 14:44Wes Bos?

  I think there even is some, there's like an Axios like library that gives you the pieces that people use. Like, people want to set their auth headers once.

• 14:54Scott Tolinski?

  Yes.

• 14:55Wes Bos?

  And or people don't want to have to double JSON, you know?

• 14:58Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah.

• 14:58Wes Bos?

  Especially with TypeScript. And like, the answer to that is, well, just write a wrapper function. But Axios kind of is that wrapper function. So I think there are alternative libraries that sort of give you that Axios wrapper without the the baggage of the whole library.

• 15:13Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah, word. Isn't that actually? No, that's, is that KY? Is that what that library is? KY.

• 15:18Wes Bos?

  Yeah, I've not.

• 15:20Scott Tolinski?

  As you're describing this, I was looking at it. I was thinking, I'm pretty sure that's just KY. It's from a prolific package out there.

• 15:28Wes Bos?

  Sindre Soras.

• 15:29Scott Tolinski?

  Sindre Soras, delightful HTTP request. It is a simple HTTP client based on fetch specifically. So I do think that's what this is.

• 15:39Wes Bos?

  This is probably what you want.

• 15:41Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah.

• 15:41Wes Bos?

  Yeah.

• 15:42Scott Tolinski?

  But nobody knows about it. 66% of people, no opinion on this thing. So give KY a check. I don't feel like I need it or want it, but if you're reaching for Axios, KY might be a good option. As far as other ones, we tend to encounter here, I'm pretty stoked on the fact that Tanstack query is so high at 43% of used and liked. When we talked to Tanner, he certainly made me like a believer in all the stuff he was doing. So yeah, it's nice to see that doing well. Apollo client kind of holding on there a little bit. 25% is not nothing, but yeah, I haven't heard about Apollo in a little while. I don't know what their status is, to be honest.

• 16:22Wes Bos?

  Yeah, that's a great question. I don't know as well. It's been a while since I've used Apollo. Sort of, I think like all things GraphQL, went a little bit more enterpris-y, because that's sort of where the use case for a lot of GraphQL stuff is. Hosting, can you guess the top hosting providers?

• 16:44Scott Tolinski?

  Ooh, top hosting providers.

• 16:46Wes Bos?

  Keep in mind, like, this is like JavaScript, primarily front-end people.

• 16:51Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah. Okay, well, one, I think Netlify is going to be on there. I think Vercel's going to be on there. I think Digital Ocean's going to be on there, Cloudflare, and AWS, I guess.

• 17:04Wes Bos?

  Yep. Digital Ocean not on there, surprisingly. So number one, Vercel, 36.2%, and then AWS, 32% under that. So more people using Vercel over AWS, which makes sense. I'm just surprised. I know I keep saying this, but like, I'm so surprised Amazon has not made a Vercel-like experience. And every time we say this, people come out and say, "Yeah, but there's AWS, what's their equivalent?"

• 17:34Scott Tolinski?

  Oh, God. And while you say this, Wes, it's so funny. I went to like login to pay my bill on AWS the other day, and I got hit with this login. Here's the new sign-in UI, and somehow the new sign-in UI not only looks like the same as the last one, but it's somehow just like slightly worse. I don't even, I like, don't know what's going on. And then I went to like, go through the billing experience, and I was just like, "How? How have they managed to make this such a maze? How have they managed to make just finding my, where my credit card information is, like, so many clicks and such a maze to get to?" I really, truly don't understand it. It is shocking. Even Google, though, Google's developer platform site and Azure's developer platform.

• 18:17Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah, they're all just, I've already railed against a couple of times, but man, they're just, they're rat's nest of all kinds of stuff. Yeah.

• 18:24Wes Bos?

  The hilariousness that I'm A, forgetting what AWS is like continuous integration thing, where you like push a git commit and it rebuilds it and deploys it for you. The fact that I'm forgetting what that is called, which I'm sure you're screaming at it right now.

• 18:41Scott Tolinski?

  I know it is, by the way. I can tell you.

• 18:42Wes Bos?

  What is it?

• 18:43Scott Tolinski?

  Amplify.

• 18:44Wes Bos?

  Yeah, Amplify, that's it. Okay. And the fact that I was searching for AWS deployment thing or AWS versall alternative, and that did not come up once.

• 18:57Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah.

• 18:58Wes Bos?

  Um, they just have so many products. And like, come on, you gotta think they could put a couple hundreds of people on this and build it.

• 19:08Scott Tolinski?

  It is kind of wild that Digital Ocean didn't show up. I feel like at some point they would be very high on this chart. Just given, yeah, given where they've been in the past. Yeah.

• 19:19Wes Bos?

  Yeah, Digital Ocean's app platform is specifically like what we're talking about, which is like a platform as a service, right? It's not, you don't get a Linux box and login and install node. You just like set up some config file and you give it your git repo and it will build. And that, I've, I've used that a couple of times, but it never really took off as, as much as I thought it would. Cloudflare Pages, though, is, again, that's Cloudflare's equivalent to that. It's higher than I thought it would be as well. 10%.

• 19:51Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah, 70, 80% of people using continuous integration right now. I don't know what the other 20% of the people are doing. Like, are you FTPing and dragging and dropping? What's the alternative to continuous integration?

• 20:04Wes Bos?

  FTPing, Rsync.

• 20:07Scott Tolinski?

  Logging in and git pulling and then running.

• 20:09Wes Bos?

  Drag, well, like, you laugh, but if you sign up for AWS serverless functions.

• 20:16Wes Bos?

  Like their initial interface for deploying a serverless function is upload a zip file of your serverless function with your node modules in it. Like that's their interface for that. And obviously, there's way better ways to do it, but like that's your, you're getting started. But the CI GitHub Actions, 70%. Like, remember back in the day, everyone used CircleCI or Travis?

• 20:39Scott Tolinski?

  CircleCI, Semaphore, Travis.

• 20:42Wes Bos?

  7% Travis.

• 20:44Scott Tolinski?

  I used a bunch of these, and I never liked any of them. Would you wait, why?

• 20:47Wes Bos?

  They're all painful.

• 20:49Scott Tolinski?

  That Google or GitHub Actions were able to just do it. It is one of those things that we talked about, especially in the Copilot episode that we just recorded, where if you can put things closer to Git and GitHub, where people are already using GitHub, then GitHub will take over. And I think this is a prime example of it. It's not like GitHub Actions are the most friendly, fun thing to work on in the world, but they certainly do the job. It goes to show you just make it free, make it available, people are going to use it and just take over that platform entirely. I haven't reached for anything else. I do a ton of GitHub Actions on most projects, so definitely myself included into that.

• 21:31Wes Bos?

  Have you used micro frontends? This is, this is kind of an interesting one, because the whole micro frontends thing is I keep hearing about it. I keep talking to people about it at conferences that are from larger companies, but it's not something I've dipped into. And I think that this is a show that we need to have a guest on for, because the whole idea of like microservices was very popular, right? And now we have this idea of micro frontends, where you have different teams building different components that then come together. And then there's a whole, this whole Webpack module federation thing, where you can share code between them. I think that we need to, we'll ask you this, dear audiences, who do we talk to about micro frontends?

• 22:15Wes Bos?

  I've had a lot of people reach out about the topic, but they, it's almost always that they're from a company trying to hawk their thing and That's sometimes fine, but I'm always hesitant to do that.

• 22:29Scott Tolinski?

  I'm always hesitant to do that as well. Yeah, the microfinance thing seems to me a problem or a solution to solve a problem that we, you and I, just will never face because we don't have many different large codebases.

• 22:41Wes Bos?

  3,000 JavaScript developers on staff.

• 22:43Scott Tolinski?

  Legacy, tons of components, different skill levels, different departments. I mean, that's just not a problem we're going to hit. So it is, it does seem like kind of a hairy solution to me. I feel like it's a better solution to just get everybody on page during the same thing, but man, that's probably not practical.

• 23:01Wes Bos?

  It probably is, but you're not, yeah, you're not ever gonna do that in, and move fast enough where people can get their work done.

• 23:09Scott Tolinski?

  I know. It's such a dumb guy view of it. Well, why don't we just all use the same thing?

• 23:14Wes Bos?

  Yeah.

• 23:14Scott Tolinski?

  All 5,000 of us.

• 23:15Wes Bos?

  Oh, great idea. Yeah. Let's just like scrap every piece of tech that we've built our entire business on for the last 10 years.

• 23:23Scott Tolinski?

  I could do that. Next one, package managers. NPM, no doubt, 56%, easy peasy. I'm surprised that yarn is still at 21%. I felt like yarn had such a big fall from grace when they had their whole like V2 thing came out. I felt like that was gonna be like an angular two moment for them, but it seems like they're holding on. PNPM, that's what I use. It's at 19.9%. I like PNPM. There's occasionally some like little weird things with it, but for the most part, PNPM handles a lot of stuff really well. And I don't know, I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I don't wanna speak out of ignorance here.

• 23:58Wes Bos?

  Yeah.

• 23:58Scott Tolinski?

  But in NPM workspaces, do you have to define all of your packages in their version as workspace, you know, version? Because one feature that I've been really liking in PNPM workspaces is to treat all

• 24:20Scott Tolinski?

  Packages like check for the packages first in the workspace without having to put workspace in the version. You just put the version like normal in your package dot JSON and it will check the workspace first, even without the word workspace in the version, meaning that like I can use the same dependency like line of code to pull from both NPM when it when it's somewhere else, but also from my workspace if it's within my workspace itself in my mono repo.

• 24:52Wes Bos?

  Yeah, the I don't know the exact answer to that, but I do know that the PMPM one is a little bit simpler. I recently went and tried to deploy my entire course platform to Dino deploy just to see can you act like so they're like we have full node support now blah blah blah, you know, and I was like, all right, bet, let's try like this huge node app that I've been working on for 10 years. That's a massive mono repo and there's multiple workspaces or there's there's yeah, multiple workspaces in it. So I use PMPM to manage my workspaces and obviously deploy it to Dino play, they're going to use NPM or or they're going to use their NPM equivalent. And the thing I had to change was that I use like

• 25:37Wes Bos?

  workspace colon star in my package JSON, which is really nice because it just finds the folder that all top level folders you want to add new packages, you just add another one. I had to go change it to explicitly stating all of the workspaces in there.

• 25:52Scott Tolinski?

  Oh, you did? Yeah.

• 25:54Wes Bos?

  Yes, but aside from that, I don't think I try not to do anything that is specific to your package manager because I want to be able to run it with NPM or with PMPM. That's part of the reason why I'm get whenever a project uses yarn, like I was trying redwood JS out the other day and it uses yarn and like it wasn't installing properly and I was like, oh, like I have the wrong version of yarn installed and then but yarn also now comes with.

• 26:24Wes Bos?

  What's the thing? It comes with Node? What's that called? In, in Node, where Node now ships?

• 26:31Scott Tolinski?

  Oh, yeah.

• 26:31Wes Bos?

  Package managers as well?

• 26:33Scott Tolinski?

  I remember that. That was a whole big controversy when they added that to, to Node. It was like, the yarn team specifically was really pushing for it, which I can understand why. It's their, their product. They wanted alternatives. And by the way, the, the PNP M package setting, for people who are wondering, because I mentioned, this is a setting called link workspace packages. If enabled, locally available packages are linked into node modules instead of being downloaded from the registry.

• 27:02Wes Bos?

  Oh, yeah.

• 27:04Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah. And so it's basically like, again, you just use the versions and it automatically does linking instead of needing to put workspace in the version, which is nice.

• 27:15Wes Bos?

  All right. It's called Corepack. So Corepack is an experimental tool that helps with managing versions of your package manager. So this is interesting because your package manager can specify which version of your package manager to use. So if you have one node installation, or you have one project that needs a, like a specific version of yarn to run, and another one that needs a different version of yarn to run, you can use different versions of yarn and PNP M on a different one without having to do the whole switcheroo every single time. And I know everyone's saying, just use Docker. No, I will not, not use Docker for that type of thing.

• 27:55Scott Tolinski?

  I think I get a little bit-

• 27:56Wes Bos?

  Just let me experience my pain.

• 27:57Scott Tolinski?

  A little bit closer to using Docker every day, Wes. I think that is, uh, that's my, my future here. I'm going to be one of those guys like a year from now. It's like, I love Docker.

• 28:06Wes Bos?

  It's so funny because I, I have like nine Docker images running on like servers. I have a local running, but like on my own computer, I just don't feel like doing that.

• 28:17Scott Tolinski?

  I'd rather go to several places to start my database itself, to boot up my server and then boot up my UI. Rather just run off those processes individually in a haphazard manner.

• 28:28Wes Bos?

  I don't want to download the like 47 gigabyte Docker file every time I want to run something.

• 28:33Scott Tolinski?

  Now, Doctor's crazy.

• 28:34Wes Bos?

  I get it.

• 28:35Scott Tolinski?

  Let's look at it in runtimes. We talk a lot about runtimes, but 96% of people are using Node. Oh, because this is a multiple choice. I'm wondering like how are people using Bun and Node? Okay, so Node at 96%, Bun at 10%, which is the second highest. Dino, kind of a shocking 2.6. Dino just works, y'all. It is really nice and smooth. I think Bun is just like a little extra sprinkles on top, but Dino just works to me, you know?

• 29:02Wes Bos?

  Yeah, I think, I think the Bun is a bit more, it's kind of like the HTML5 answer is it's a bit hyped. I also, I think a lot of people are using Bun for their, their tooling and their build as well. Just like as an alternative to PNPM or Yarn or something like that, right? So you're seeing quite a bit of that as well. I'm surprised to see that so much higher than Dino though. Which is, just from, I haven't heard of anybody actually running Bun in production just yet. I've seen people use it, like even on CloudFlare pages, you can use Bun to build your website and then deploy it to CloudFlare pages. So you don't run your website in Bun, but you can use it as the, the build tool.

• 29:47Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah. Let's talk about build tools. TypeScript, 96% or 90% of people have used TypeScript. Not surprising, given, you know, it's, I guess 90% is a lot. 90% is a lot.

• 29:59Wes Bos?

  That's almost everybody.

• 30:00Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah. Yeah. So if you're not on TypeScript and you're one of those people that's holding out, you are part of the 9.4%. It is funny, anytime we like post things on YouTube, we occasionally get comments from people that are like, "TypeScript's a waste of time." And it's like, okay buddy, that's you. You're one of the, the people here who are in that 9%. But yeah, 94% of people used and liked TypeScript. Used and liked. 94% used and liked.

• 30:28Wes Bos?

  But like the amount of people that are still using jQuery and everybody is 90% on, on TypeScript is, is amazing, right?

• 30:36Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah, that's amazing, yeah.

• 30:38Wes Bos?

  Does that mean, like, I would have thought it would, the nose would be a bit higher because of legacy stacks, you know, and just, it's just simply can't move it over to TypeScript. But maybe people are just starting to opt into, into writing the new pieces in TypeScript and, and then consuming the old JavaScript versions as they need it.

• 30:57Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah, 2.2% of people used and liked Flow. So if you're one of the people who held on to Flow, then yeah, good luck there. I do hear occasionally, there's some nicer things about Flow, but yeah, not nice enough for me to, to jump on that bandwagon here. That's a little bit too small. 53% of people said TypeScript overtook JavaScript and became the new front-end standard. I believe that JavaScript will turn into something like TypeScript. 16% of people agreed with that statement.

• 31:29Wes Bos?

  What do you think about that?

• 31:31Scott Tolinski?

  I, whether or not it will turn into something like TypeScript, I do believe that we'll get some sort of types as comments as that, that proposal was, where we can write types and it will run as JavaScript. And we did get TypeScript running support within Node. It's in all of the other JavaScript runtimes. It kind of feels like JavaScript's gonna turn into something like TypeScript at some point.

• 31:59Wes Bos?

  Yeah, yeah, I don't know that we'll ever get like actual types as part of the engine.

• 32:05Scott Tolinski?

  Actual.

• 32:05Wes Bos?

  But from an authoring perspective, yeah, I think we're, we will get that, where we can, we can write types in JavaScript and then you can simply consume that via anything. Like you should be able to run a typed JavaScript file in the browser without having a syntax error, you know, meaning like the engine should be able to strip out those types before it runs it. And then I, like, I, I think that we'll see, once we get that, we'll start seeing some tools that are like TypeScript-ish, you know, like a new typed version of, we'll, we'll see tools built on top of that to sort of formalize what that looks like.

• 32:48Wes Bos?

  And, and maybe we'll all standardize on, on one way going forward. That might be TypeScript, might be something else, we'll see.

• 32:56Scott Tolinski?

  We'll see. There's also 1.9% of people who are still holding on to everyone will soon forget about TypeScript. Yeah, that's that's gonna happen. That's about as likely as AI just going away next week. You know, that's that's not gonna happen, folks.

• 33:13Wes Bos?

  Browser technologies, 82% people using the fetch API, which I guess other people are still using Axios.

• 33:20Scott Tolinski?

  Hey, before before you even go on from that, I don't know if you noticed, Wes, but in the front of each one of these sections, there's a little, there's an expert who gives a little.

• 33:30Wes Bos?

  An expert, yes.

• 33:31Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah, an expert. And actually, one, the one before this was Daniel Rowe. Shout out to Daniel. He was at our syntax meetup in SF. So it was nice to meet him. But guess who wrote something about fetch? It was me. I wrote something on here. Yes, fetch. It's both surprising and unsurprising that fetch has 82% usage rate. On one hand, it's amazing how quickly we've standardized on fetch, which is simple enough that most users don't need external dependencies. That's me putting in my my Axios dig right there. On the other hand, we don't usually move that fast. That was my my little, well, I had some paragraphs. Actually, they tightened it up for me. I'm not a gifted writer. So their staff looked at it and gave it a little editorial. But this is my my words for the

• 34:13Scott Tolinski?

  most part. So read my little sentence here in this thing if you want. Yep. Other things noted, a lot of these APIs that got usage, even though they're they're still under 50% are a lot of the things that, well, I think we're going to see more of because they're more native app like features, whether that is like the storage API, even just using service workers or caching APIs, web workers, index DB, file system API.

• 34:39Wes Bos?

  Full screen.

• 34:40Scott Tolinski?

  Full screen. Yeah, these things are going to get more ubiquitous. They're going to get more available. The one that is kind of crazy is that 3.5% are using Houdini, which What part of Houdini are they using?

• 34:51Wes Bos?

  No one's using Houdini. Like, maybe with it making a demo, but...

• 34:55Scott Tolinski?

  I disagree. I think that people are using @property occasionally now. And @property is like probably one of the only...

• 35:01Wes Bos?

  Is that part of Houdini?

• 35:02Scott Tolinski?

  As part of Houdini, yeah.

• 35:04Wes Bos?

  Okay, so maybe we can explain what @property is. Do you want to give a stab or do you want me to?

• 35:10Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah, no, I'll give a stab. It's basically, you can think of it as like types for CSS variables. So typically, when you define a CSS variable, you're just saying, here's the variable, here's the value. And that doesn't tell CSS or the browser a whole lot about what that value is. And with this @property rule, what you're essentially doing is you're taking like four lines of code to define a single variable as in here's what the variable is. Here's the type of the variable, is it a number or what? And then here's a default value for it. Now, the cool thing about that is because you know what type it is, it makes interpolating those values possible by the browser. It's the thing that makes it so...

• 35:53Scott Tolinski?

  The classic example is I can, with @property, I can animate a gradient. That's, that's what's cool about it. But yeah, I think for the most part, it's just types for your variables.

• 36:05Wes Bos?

  The other good use case or that I've used @property for is in a keyframe, if you want to, instead of changing a property in a keyframe, like for example, a rotate value. If you want to update a rotate value in a keyframe, you have to say transform, rotate, whatever. But the downside to that is if you have other transforms, then you, you're overwriting those by, by just simply putting transform, rotate, whatever. And what you can do with @property is you can just update the variable in the keyframe. So you could say, dash, dash, rotate value 20 degrees. And then wherever that variable is referenced, by default, it would just snap because it doesn't know

• 36:49Wes Bos?

  what the type of the, the CSS variable is. But with @property, you can... Say this is a length or a percentage or a degree or something like that. And then the browser will know, oh, this keyframe updated a variable, which is a degree. I can animate degrees. So then it will actually give yourself the the smooth animation or transition that you're looking for.

• 37:11Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah. Counterpoint, I just use the transform properties like rotate as a property.

• 37:16Wes Bos?

  Straight. Is that, is that in all the browsers now?

• 37:19Scott Tolinski?

  Oh, yeah.

• 37:20Wes Bos?

  It was for a while. I remember talking about it on this podcast like, like five years ago.

• 37:25Scott Tolinski?

  Oh, it's big and it has been.

• 37:27Wes Bos?

  But like, that's, that's great if you are straight up doing it. But if you are using like that variable in a calc or something like that, you know, I want to, I want to turn this to 12 degrees, but I need to calculate something else based on that value. Then it gets a little tricky because you simply just want to update a variable and anything that is then reactive to that variable does it. So let's, let's look at the update. What is it? Rotate?

• 37:52Scott Tolinski?

  It for, it came into fire. Believe it or not, it came into Firefox in 2020. It came into Safari in 2021 and it came into Chrome in 2022. It has 94% global usage, which is massive.

• 38:06Wes Bos?

  You can use that now.

• 38:06Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah, you can use it.

• 38:08Wes Bos?

  You can just straight up use the rotate value, which is good because it's annoying to, even if you're not using a keyframe, it's annoying to have to write transform rotate. I'd rather say rotate two degrees.

• 38:19Scott Tolinski?

  Do that, folks. Progressive web apps, the most people think the popularity will slowly increase. I agree with that. The APIs are coming in slowly to all, all browsers and everything like that. You can now install apps on your home screen and the, in the correct ways on many platforms now. So yeah, I think PWAs will continue, but I think it's more or less like the feature set of PWAs are going to become more just generally used rather than people focusing on building a PWA progressive web app. Like for instance, I mean, like now the stuff I do always has the progressive web app stuff about it. It has a service worker. It has a manifest file and an icon and a theme color.

• 39:01Scott Tolinski?

  It works offline. It does all the stuff that a progressive web app should do. But I've never sat down and be like, let me progressive web appify this thing.

• 39:09Wes Bos?

  Yeah. Yeah. You're just using features that will be handy, throwing stuff into the cache. So. I hope so. We built a little PWA for the syntax GitHub Universe. We had a little iPad on the table and it was just looping through the syntax shorts that we had and had a big syntax logo and some of the links. And it was meant for like people walking by were able to be like, "Oh, syntax. I've heard of that." And then they would sort of come into the booth and then we'd sell them on Sentry. But I built just a little, a little web app for that. And then I use some of the features like turning the, tinting the URL bar and being able to bookmark it and putting

• 39:53Wes Bos?

  a icon on there. One thing I didn't do is I wanted to figure out how to store the .ts files of a HLS stream. I want to figure out how to store those locally in the browser so that if the wifi were to go out, they would, the video would keep looping.

• 40:10Scott Tolinski?

  I got something for you, Wes.

• 40:13Wes Bos?

  Yes.

• 40:13Scott Tolinski?

  This is gonna be good. What, don't look at the styling tools one. Yeah.

• 40:17Wes Bos?

  Okay.

• 40:18Scott Tolinski?

  So, given the options, which you could imagine, most of them, you know, plain CSS, Panda, Sass, styled components, Stylus, Tailwind, those types of things. Which is the most used and liked? And then actually, I'll give you, like, give me one, two, three.

• 40:40Wes Bos?

  Most used and liked ways to write CSS?

• 40:44Scott Tolinski?

  Yes.

• 40:45Wes Bos?

  I'm going to say vanilla.

• 40:49Scott Tolinski?

  Number one, vanilla.

• 40:50Wes Bos?

  Uh, Tailwind.

• 40:54Wes Bos?

  And I'm gonna say Sass, because like, nobody hates Sass.

• 40:59Scott Tolinski?

  I'm gonna be, I'm gonna be, uh, that was really good, Wes.

• 41:03Wes Bos?

  Really?

• 41:04Scott Tolinski?

  You got the, you got the, you got all three of them correct. You got the order wrong. It's plain CSS, then Sass, then Tailwind. Which, man, props for nailing all of those. I mean, it's easy to think about potentially any of these other hyped ones, but in reality, like, what else is there? CSS modules is the next highest one, which is pretty predictable that it would be CSS modules. And then after that, styled components. Shout out to Max, who was also at our syntax meetup.

• 41:32Wes Bos?

  Yeah.

• 41:33Scott Tolinski?

  Author of styled components. He's great to talk to. But yeah, stylus, sadly enough, 3.5%. 56% of people have no opinion on it. They don't even know what it is. 30% of people not interested. Yeah, rest in peace, stylus.

• 41:49Wes Bos?

  This is a really good one to just look at, like awareness of like what is out there, right? Like, we've talked, Panda CSS on this, this quite a bit, but like, I think it looks like almost nobody even knows what, what that is. And yeah, like Tailwind's huge, SASS is huge. And the SASS one is interesting because, like, we did it again. We did a show on like, can you drop SASS? And like, almost all of the features of SASS can be done in plain CSS, you know? Nesting, in fact, they're even better in plain CSS because they run in the browser.

• 42:24Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah, and soon, who knows, once we, once slash if we get mix-ins and functions, then that's all she wrote right there. I guess maybe loops, but yeah.

• 42:34Wes Bos?

  It's gonna be, yeah, even like, there are some features. Maybe we should like do an update as to that because there are now style queries that have come out. There is now a proposal for mix-ins and functions in CSS. Miriam Suzanne's working on. We should, let's, let's do that episode again because when we recorded, we said, there is nothing, but hopefully one day. But now we have proposals for those last few bits. And especially with the style queries, which is part of containing queries, but it allows you to essentially do if statements in CSS, you know? If this Boolean is turned on, then apply all of the CSS.

• 43:14Scott Tolinski?

  Man, gotta love it, right? Yeah, gotta love it.

• 43:17Wes Bos?

  Testing, who is responsible for testing your software? Developers and QA, mostly developers, mostly QA. So 10% of people saying mostly QA. So yeah, that's, that's more than I thought. Remember, we talked, we talked about that on a previous episode is, I didn't think that. Many people had dedicated QA and it turns out that quite a few people still have dedicated QA.

• 43:42Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah, QA big. People often are using unit tests primarily, then end to end, then integration. I personally do most things in end to end just because of makes sense in a browser context. To me personally, that said, I know unit testing is like the standard for just like, oh, I'm gonna learn testing. Let me learn how to test a function and I'll still do occasional unit tests, but mostly it's now just running the app in something like Cypress, which has 42% usage here. And Playwright, 36% usage, which I thought Playwright at this point would start to overtake Cypress for some reason. I couldn't tell you why. And I do want to say, I am happy we're using Playwright on the syntax site because,

• 44:28Scott Tolinski?

  well, not just because of this, but the, oh, one of the, I don't know if it's the creator of Playwright or one of the guys who works on Playwright, did a code review of our PR.

• 44:38Wes Bos?

  Little audit.

• 44:39Scott Tolinski?

  And like updated our things. It was like, your tests will run faster this way. It's like, man, that rules. Thank you. That's so cool. Thank you.

• 44:45Wes Bos?

  That's great. Yeah, I actually had somebody email me the other day asking like, how do I, how do I test this? You know, and they had like a user uploads a PDF and the PDF is parsed and then the parsing values gets fed through this next thing. And they're like, there's, there's no way for me to like unit test some of the functions. It's just written in such a way. And I think that unless you were to do a bit of a rewrite and sort of modify everything, the end to end testing is, is maybe your best bet to have some sort of security in that this thing still works when you finish making updates to it.

• 45:22Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah, yeah, for real. And you know, they often have like test recorders, which is nice where you can just click around the site and it'll record your actions and write the, at least like the navigating parts of using your thing. And that way you just have to write the, the expects or whatever. I expect this to do that.

• 45:39Wes Bos?

  Code editors, 75% using VS Code, about 18%.

• 45:44Wes Bos?

  Using Jetbrains. I also, the other day, Jetbrains announced the ability to have a free access for non-commercial use, which, which I think is huge because like, lot of times you'll say, why don't you use Jetbrains? I don't want to pay for it, you know? I think that's a big move for them for, you can now get WebStorm, PHP Storm, all of these storms, the Jetbrains IDE series for free if you're non-commercial. So if you're just doing a side project, you want to check it out, you can get it for free, which I think that's really exciting to see that. 3% on Vim, not even a percent on Sublime anymore. Poor Sublime.

• 46:24Scott Tolinski?

  I know. Hey, and guess what? It's over for VS Code. Cursor has officially killed VS Code by not showing up in this chart at all. Did we have somebody leave a comment like, "Too late, Cursor's already got it" or something?

• 46:37Wes Bos?

  Oh, yeah. Yeah. I was tweeting all of the stuff that was announced at GitHub Universe, and like, I'm no, I'm no GitHub stan, I'm no VS Code stan, I like it. I'm here for whatever's the best.

• 46:50Scott Tolinski?

  I'm a GitHub star, so I have to like it.

• 46:53Wes Bos?

  Yeah, Scott has vested interest. I got no vested interest, but people are like, "Too late." I was like, "Brother, you're underestimating the fact that GitHub owns all this stuff, you know? The heavy hammer. The number of poor souls that have used Microsoft Teams because they use Outlook for their email is extremely high."

• 47:15Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah, for real, for real.

• 47:17Wes Bos?

  Versus Slack. It might not be the best, but like, I don't know, I'm rooting for Cursor, but I'm rooting for VS Code as well. It's, I don't think, I think it's way too early in this code editing game to even decide a winner.

• 47:29Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah, for real. And, and again, it's not even on this chart, so.

• 47:32Wes Bos?

  Yeah. Browser code editor, code pen coming in high, code sandbox, Stackblitz, JS Fiddle, 10%. This surprised me. I would expect to see GitHub, Code Spaces on here. I would expect to see maybe Google IDX on here, you know, like the hosted VS Code versions rather than this, but it seems like people... Are maybe not using those, although like I heard the other day Shopify has all of their devs working in the browser in VS Code, right? It's just like a IT breeze is you don't have to worry about access and having, having code on their local machines, all of that stuff. But it seems like

• 48:15Wes Bos?

  from these answers, like CodePen, you're posting cool CSS demos. Code Sandbox, you're posting your broken code. Stack Slids, you're posting your demos. And JS Fiddle, you're posting, you're posting a 10-year-old Stack Overflow answer.

• 48:30Scott Tolinski?

  Accurate, very accurate. It's deadly accurate, yes. Perfect.

• 48:35Wes Bos?

  And Replit. Replit's one of these things that I keeps, I keep seeing it. It seems to be getting really popular. It seems to be big in the AI space. I need to give that a fair shake because I feel like it's becoming extremely popular outside of my bubble. And those are always interesting to me. It's when people who are learning web development do something different than what people who are in web development because that might be the next thing, you know?

• 49:01Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah, totally. A couple of last ones. Build Tools, Veet by far taking the cake. No surprise. Veet rules. Big fan of Veet. Second place is ES Build. Wow. Third place is Webpack. So Webpack, really feeling the heat now. Linting Tools, ES Lint. Everybody's using ES Lint. Everybody's using Pretty Air. 30% of people are using and liked StyleLint. We use StyleLint and I, I like it. It keeps Wes boss in check.

• 49:28Wes Bos?

  Highly recommend, yeah.

• 49:28Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah.

• 49:29Wes Bos?

  I'm a big fan. I've also been using Markdown Lint a lot lately. And it does a good job at both formatting my Markdown nicely, but also telling me when I'm doing bad things like not nesting the the levels properly. The, the poor thing, go back to the last one, which is Webpack, is almost as many people use and dislike Webpack as use and like Webpack, which is

• 49:56Wes Bos?

  A bit of a shame, but it's just like a web pack has become such a huge thing and the API is not easy to sort of reason about, whereas like with with V, you almost don't even need for a lot of projects. You don't even need config.

• 50:12Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah.

• 50:12Wes Bos?

  Use it. And then if you do need config, like it's not hard. Like I have 120 line V config, which is pretty complex and it that was it was a joy to build. I was I was really happy about that.

• 50:24Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah, yeah. Word, operating systems, majority of people on Mac. Yes.

• 50:29Wes Bos?

  Yeah, that's kind of interesting to me. Like, doesn't I think most people are not on a Mac. If you were to to actually gauge, I don't know, what would you think? Or you think if you took every developer building JavaScript, do you think they would be mostly Mac?

• 50:46Scott Tolinski?

  Ah, yeah, I mean, I'm so biased here. I can't give you a straight answer because I'm going to just say yes, that's what I like and prefer. And I think it's a smoother experience for me. But yeah, I mean, you often hear people being like, who even uses Mac? I mean, a lot of people using it, so.

• 51:03Wes Bos?

  I wonder if we were to poll our audience, I bet it would be like 72% Mac. But if you were, I bet if you were to poll the wider audience, you would get a bit more heavily Windows.

• 51:16Scott Tolinski?

  Hmm.

• 51:17Wes Bos?

  Let's wrap it up with the future trends and your opinion, which of the following trends will gain popularity and which will die? So the highest trend of popularity is performance. That's great to see a responsiveness.

• 51:32Scott Tolinski?

  Wait, it's no.

• 51:33Wes Bos?

  Oh, no.

• 51:33Scott Tolinski?

  Developer experience. User experience is 90%. Whatever that means, user, user experience is that? How is that different from developer?

• 51:41Wes Bos?

  Yeah.

• 51:42Scott Tolinski?

  How it is for the people using your application? Sure. Yeah, user experience, we want them to be faster, smaller, you know, quicker apps. I guess that all falls under user experience, right?

• 51:52Wes Bos?

  responsiveness, that's, I'm hoping that doesn't mean like responsive CSS. I think everybody's writing responses. That probably means like, like what I'm reading for this, performance is high, responsiveness is high, server rendering is high. I think that what that means is that we're focusing on how do we make these apps fast and feel good. So what, what will lose popularity? GraphQL, 50% of people think GraphQL will lose popularity, which I think I agree with, not because it's bad. Again, it's just not the tool for absolutely everybody. I think it's clear where the use cases of GraphQL shines. Micro front ends about tied.

• 52:34Wes Bos?

  30% think it will, will gain and 30% think it will go down. It's a pretty good split.

• 52:41Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah. Missing on here, uh, local first stuff.

• 52:45Wes Bos?

  Yes.

• 52:46Scott Tolinski?

  Where's the local data stuff on here? I think that kind of falls into several of these things, just individually, but nothing specifically. I think that's something they should be, uh, should be tracking here.

• 52:56Wes Bos?

  Cool. All right. Well, that's it. An interesting look at where we're at with our, the whole web development scene right now. I always love going through these and just getting a good feel for where everybody's at.

• 53:06Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah. Yeah. Especially again, outside of our bubble, I think is important here. So, um, cool survey. I was really stoked to be a part of it. So, um, shout out to all of the folks who put this survey together and including me in it, because it was, uh, nice to do this kind of thing. So, uh, shout out to the state of front end 2024. Give it a check. Let us know what you think. How accurate do you feel like this is? If you're out there and you're listening to us talk about this, if, do you feel this is accurate? If you do or don't, leave a comment below. Best place to comment on YouTube. While you're there, feel free to give this thing a thumbs up, a like, a follow, a share. Send it to your grandma. Do all that stuff. So thank you so much.

• 53:48Wes Bos?

  And Spotify also now has, has comments. They, Spotify had comments for, I don't know, probably about six months a year now, but you could never reply to them. So it was just like, people would write stuff and you'd be like, cool. I have no idea who you are or any, how to reply to you. But now you can actually reply to comments on Spotify, which I think is pretty cool as well. So if you're in Spotify, leave a comment as well.

• 54:13Scott Tolinski?

  Word. Sick. Cool. Well, let's get into sick picks and shameless plugs. Do you have anything today?

• 54:21Wes Bos?

  Yes, I'm going to sick pick the Flighty iOS app. So I've been using a app called Flight View to track flights for probably 10 years now. And someone put me on to using Flighty, which is a beautiful iOS app. It's one of these ones that's just so well designed, has all the features, really nice tracking on it, gives you all kinds of cool stats. I used it for my last two flights. I was like, this is fantastic. Gives you stats on like, like historically, this flight has always been 12 minutes late into the gate or early, and it updates it. And it puts your flight information right on your home screen. As like one of those like, you know, I don't know what that's called in iOS, but like when you're doing something.

• 55:05Scott Tolinski?

  It's like an action of some kind.

• 55:07Wes Bos?

  Yeah, if you're shopping for Instacart, it will like, show you where your person is, or your Uber will show up. It does that with Flighty. And I think it's a pretty nifty app. It's one of those like, like Tapbots or whatever, they build beautiful apps. I feel like it's in that range of, of good apps. And I didn't pay for the, the paid version. I used the trial. And then I, I don't know if I would, would pay for it. But apparently you can also just buy it for a week, which I love. Cause if you are going on a trip, yeah, shell out for a week of this, it's gonna make your, your life a little bit simpler.

• 55:42Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah. I am going to sick pick something from our holiday gift guide episode that Wes brought to my attention.

• 55:52Wes Bos?

  Ooh.

• 55:53Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah. So you had shared a candle warmer lamp. Man, I got Courtney a candle warmer lamp for, lamp for her office. And what was so funny is that was like, I was trying to like, I was trying to get it without her noticing it, obviously, but it's coming in from Amazon. And like, I, it was, it was as, as at my son's soccer practice, the, it's like 5:30 or, or getting close to six, the package arrives and I have five minutes to get home. In fact, I'm on my way home when the package arrives and I'm like, I gotta intercept that package. I know Courtney's making dinner right now, so therefore I should be good to go. I walk in the door, she's already

• 56:38Scott Tolinski?

  got the candle warmer hooked up and using it. She's like, hey, did you buy this for me? I was like, no.

• 56:45Wes Bos?

  Was it supposed to be a Christmas gift?

• 56:46Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah, it was gonna be a Christmas gift for office. She's like, did you get this for you? I was like, no, I got it for you, for your office for Christmas. And I couldn't believe it. It's like five minutes and she, she somehow like not only opened it, but got it going and everything. So, yeah.

• 56:58Wes Bos?

  That's great.

• 57:00Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah.

• 57:00Wes Bos?

  I, I love it. The, the one thing about it is that it, as you use it, the smell comes out of the candle, but the candle doesn't burn down as quickly as the smell gets away. And it makes your candles last way longer than if you were to burn them. But also you wonder like, where's that going? You know, like the wax is I guess going into the air, being burnt.

• 57:21Scott Tolinski?

  Does it work though?

• 57:23Wes Bos?

  Yes, yes. But I, I have been looking into, can you just buy candle scents and put them into the wax once the, cause you, you end up with this candle that has no more smell in it after like a three or four weeks of using it. But you still have wax left. So you can, I'm curious if you can just buy-

• 57:42Scott Tolinski?

  Essential oils, I bet. Yeah, you just drip some essential oil.

• 57:45Wes Bos?

  That starts a fire. Yeah. Yeah. Don't do that. Um, I, I thought so too, but I looked it up. Essential oils have alcohol in them. They're not the right thing for candles will catch on fire. So.

• 57:57Scott Tolinski?

  All right. All right. Lesson learned there. Um, yeah. Cool. I'm gonna shamelessly plug Syntax on Blue Sky. We're on Bluesky, bluesky.app. What is the URLs for Bluesky? It's, it's B-S-K-Y. app. But what is for Syntax? Is it at Syntax?

• 58:15Wes Bos?

  Syntax.fm.

• 58:16Scott Tolinski?

  [email protected]. We'll make sure we have a link to that in the show notes, profile syntax.fm. Check us out. We've been posting there. I've been posting there. It's a, it's a, man, besides just being a Twitter alternative, right? Which I think that was like the big selling point at first. It's a Twitter alternative. But there are some legitimately awesome forward-thinking features that they should have figured out at Twitter like 10 years ago. So shout out to Blue Sky for being, I don't know, there's a lot of neat stuff going on there.

• 58:49Wes Bos?

  Yeah, it's, it's a great, there's a good community on there. It feels like old internet, you know? And I know we did a show on it like a year and a half ago and it kind of fizzled out, but now there's like a second wave happening. That seems a lot more significant and there seems to be a lot of like web development talk on it, which is exciting to me. Because like Threads also did it, but I find a lot of the talk on Threads is just why people don't like Twitter. And like, I just want to learn about CSS, you know, I want to, I'm, I'm coming because there's people talking about web development stuff here. And I feel like that conversation is really good on Blue Sky right now.

• 59:30Scott Tolinski?

  It's great. Everybody's here. It's, it, the vibes are immaculate currently, before all of the grifters and who knows what has arrived, but.

• 59:40Wes Bos?

  Yeah, I did get one in my, so there's a Discover feed, which is like, like an algorithm-based thing that tries to show you things that you like. And I did get like a history cool kids or some sort of like one of these things that just posts like photos of interesting things like Facebook slop. And I was just like, oh no, here it comes, here it comes.

• 1:00:04Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah, I know.

• 1:00:05Wes Bos?

  Yeah, we'll get there eventually.

• 1:00:07Scott Tolinski?

  Another thing was, uh, block, block lists are public, by the way. I don't know if you knew that.

• 1:00:11Wes Bos?

  Really?

• 1:00:12Scott Tolinski?

  You can see who blocked you. Luckily, nobody who I know or care about has blocked me, so.

• 1:00:18Wes Bos?

  Oh, that's cool. I guess it has to be though because of the decentralized nature.

• 1:00:24Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah, there's a lot of interesting. And by the way, we're having Dan on the show.

• 1:00:28Wes Bos?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:29Scott Tolinski?

  Dan Abramov, who works at Blue Sky formerly of the React team.

• 1:00:32Wes Bos?

  Inventor React, yeah.

• 1:00:33Scott Tolinski?

  Really, really stoked to talk to Dan about this. So yeah. Blue Sky, what's up?

• 1:00:40Wes Bos?

  All right, that's it. Thanks for having me. We'll catch you later. Peace.

• 1:00:45Scott Tolinski?

  Bye.