ROLL ON: Stop Optimizing Your Life & Start Living It, Seeking Depth Over Algorithms, The Future of Podcasting, Artemis II, Media Diet & More

Roll On, al fresco! Adam Skolnick came over. We went outside and let the conversation breathe. No studio walls. No agenda. Just two guys, some birds, and a wide-ranging hang that covers self-obsession as the enemy of growth, the dork problem in modern podcasting, and why 14 years in, we're playing again. Then we roam: Geese, Turnstile, Mike D in a Malibu parking lot, Julie Piatt's Manger debut, Ed O'Brien of Radiohead in a church at SXSW, a joyride through Austin in the Rivian R2, the Dean Potter documentary, and Artemis II. Enjoy! Show notes + MORE Watch on YouTube Newsletter Sign-Up Today’s Sponsors: Ollie: Fresh, healthy dog food made with real, human-grade ingredients. Use code RICHROLL to get 70% off your Welcome Kit👉🏼https://www.ollie.com/richroll Freaks of Nature: High-performance everyday essentials–deodorant, sunscreen, hydration, and more. Use code RICHROLL to save 20%👉🏼https://www. FreaksofNature.com Squarespace: Use code RichRoll to save 10% off your first order of a website or domain👉🏼https://www.squarespace.com/RichRoll Go Brewing: Use the code Rich Roll for 15% OFF👉🏼https://www.gobrewing.com Rivian: Electric vehicles that keep the world adventurous forever👉🏼https://www.rivian.com Check out all of the amazing discounts from our Sponsors👉🏼https://www.richroll.com/sponsors Find out more about Voicing Change Media at https://www.voicingchange.media and follow us @voicingchange Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Rich Roll?

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• 0:44Rich Roll?

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• 1:07Adam Skolnick?

  Oh, nice.

• 1:08Rich Roll?

  How you doing, man?

• 1:09Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah, it's good to see you, man.

• 1:10Rich Roll?

  Welcome to my backyard.

• 1:12Adam Skolnick?

  It's nice to be this much closer. Thank you.

• 1:13Rich Roll?

  I know.

• 1:14Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 1:14Rich Roll?

  We did a solo episode recently outdoors. People seemed to enjoy it. And so, why not do it again?

• 1:23Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah, man.

• 1:24Rich Roll?

  More is better, right?

• 1:25Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah. I might not leave here, by the way. After this, I'm gonna use your gym, and then your sauna, and cold plunge facility, and then I might sleep there tonight.

• 1:35Rich Roll?

  You're always welcome, but you should check the Airbnb app to make sure it's available. This is a bit nostalgic because for years, we recorded the podcast at my house. You can't see it, but right off-camera over there is a room where we recorded, I don't know how many episodes, up until COVID. And then we transitioned into a studio, but it's kind of nice to be back here. I'm feeling nostalgic. We actually had some technical difficulties before recording.

• 2:06Adam Skolnick?

  We did.

• 2:07Rich Roll?

  Which is part of the nostalgia, I suppose.

• 2:09Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 2:09Rich Roll?

  And it's nice, dude. I want to just have kind of like... A low key casual hang with you.

• 2:16Adam Skolnick?

  Okay.

• 2:17Rich Roll?

  Which is part of this reimagination and experimentation and exploration that we're doing with the show these days. As somebody who's been podcasting for coming up on 14 years. We're breathing a little bit of fresh air into this experience. And I'm having more fun doing it than I have in a long time by trying things and recognizing there are no rules. When the podcast began, it was just all fun and adventure. And I was a traveling salesman with a case and I would go to people's houses and record in hotel rooms and conference rooms. I wasn't making any money. I never thought that it would be a revenue generating enterprise.

• 3:01Rich Roll?

  And then it became successful. And then it became like this whole thing, like this engine and it got easier and easier to just do it a certain way. And I think I lost touch with the experimentation and the trying of new things.

• 3:20Adam Skolnick?

  The beginner's mind.

• 3:21Rich Roll?

  Yeah, the beginner's mind. And now we're in this new phase and it feels much more like play and I'm enjoying it. Hopefully that's translating to the audience and the solo episode. So it started with the looks maxing episode that we did.

• 3:35Adam Skolnick?

  Correct. That was experimental.

• 3:36Rich Roll?

  By the way, how old is Zuma now?

• 3:38Adam Skolnick?

  Five, five and a half.

• 3:41Rich Roll?

  So what is, uh, what's his relationship with looks maxing? Has he signed up for Andrew Tate's academy yet?

• 3:46Adam Skolnick?

  You know, at his, at his age, at his age, he is still not really self-conscious, just a little bit, but like in his age, you can't really, like if you said something to him about his looks, he would just laugh and have, he'd have a good time with it. Wouldn't even, it wouldn't even faze him.

• 4:00Rich Roll?

  So, but so clavicular hasn't gotten his claws into Zuma yet.

• 4:04Adam Skolnick?

  No, but I worry because he doesn't like boo-boos. So when he gets a boo-boo, he's very consumed with when will the boo-boo go away?

• 4:10Rich Roll?

  Right. Well, this is the beginning of his cosmetic obsession.

• 4:13Adam Skolnick?

  Maybe.

• 4:14Rich Roll?

  If clavicular has his way.

• 4:15Adam Skolnick?

  But clavicular likes boo-boos.

• 4:19Rich Roll?

  Apparently, well, is he in jail now? Like, he shot an alligator and went to prison?

• 4:24Adam Skolnick?

  He did? That fucking bastard.

• 4:26Rich Roll?

  So, anyway, that story is only gonna end one way.

• 4:29Adam Skolnick?

  And alligator's gonna get revenge.

• 4:30Rich Roll?

  Well, the guy's like using meth and anyway, that's a whole other story.

• 4:35Adam Skolnick?

  You know what?

• 4:35Rich Roll?

  My point being, the experimentation started with this looks-maxing episode.

• 4:40Adam Skolnick?

  Right.

• 4:40Rich Roll?

  And then I recorded these solo episodes and these episodes are getting much more interest and engagement than anything that I've done in recent years.

• 4:50Adam Skolnick?

  Interesting.

• 4:51Rich Roll?

  And that feels really good because they're fun and easy. And it just tells me, oh, it's okay to play, it's okay to experiment, try new things. So we're outdoors. And I think-

• 5:02Adam Skolnick?

  Roll On was the original experimentation.

• 5:03Rich Roll?

  That's true.

• 5:04Adam Skolnick?

  In 2020.

• 5:05Rich Roll?

  Which we started in the middle of the pandemic.

• 5:07Adam Skolnick?

  Right.

• 5:07Rich Roll?

  As sort of a parasocial hang.

• 5:09Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 5:10Rich Roll?

  And a way for me and you together, like for us together to like share our perspectives and take the lens off the guests a little bit. But even Roll On started to feel very programmed.

• 5:23Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 5:24Rich Roll?

  And what I've noticed as the podcasting space has evolved is a growing desire for, A, more authenticity, a sense of something feeling just real, and an emotional connection, like a parasocial relationship. Because it's really crowded out there right now. And I think that the days of getting a special guest on your show, becoming like an event, those days are over.

• 5:56Adam Skolnick?

  Right.

• 5:57Rich Roll?

  And everybody has a million choices out there. And even the notion of two people sitting across from each other at a desk, it's hard to get excited about that format. There's so many shows doing that and so much content out there. And I think people wanna just feel connected to a guest or to a host, to feel like they're experiencing something that is, you know, heart-centered and real. And-

• 6:26Rich Roll?

  Parasocial, I guess, on some level, like they're hanging out with their friends.

• 6:29Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah, yeah. Well, that's what people always said about. That's why the our core role on people like just hearing us talk about stuff.

• 6:38Rich Roll?

  You know, the other thing I realized?

• 6:39Adam Skolnick?

  What? What's that?

• 6:41Rich Roll?

  So many of the podcast hosts who are in my kind of genre.

• 6:46Adam Skolnick?

  Okay.

• 6:47Rich Roll?

  Not all of them, but I'm saying.

• 6:49Adam Skolnick?

  Right.

• 6:50Rich Roll?

  There's a lot of them. These guys are dorks.

• 6:55Adam Skolnick?

  Wait, first of all, let's unpack that for a second. What is your podcast genre? I wanted that one though.

• 7:03Rich Roll?

  The personal development, you know, I think, I think people misconstrue this show like I get positioned as somebody who's in the self optimization like world.

• 7:14Adam Skolnick?

  Right.

• 7:14Rich Roll?

  I don't really consider myself that. Maybe that's how it's translating for a subset of the audience, but just kind of the self-help. Here's a host who's going to have the author of the next book that's coming out, or the expert on this, or the expert on that.

• 7:30Adam Skolnick?

  Self-improvement.

• 7:31Rich Roll?

  Yeah, self-improvement generally, you know, health, yes, but also psychological health, spiritual health and all of that. I don't see myself as a, as in that kind of optimization vein.

• 7:44Rich Roll?

  But there are other people out there who do something similar to what I do.

• 7:47Adam Skolnick?

  Right.

• 7:48Rich Roll?

  And I want to do something different, you know, I want to do something different.

• 7:52Adam Skolnick?

  I feel it because.

• 7:53Rich Roll?

  And so this is kind of part of that experiment.

• 7:55Adam Skolnick?

  Just to kind of piggyback on that, like it's just gotten so kind of boring where like everybody wants to improve you, or it's just like it's become uninteresting, like what, what used to be interesting. Oh, here's this academic that no one's heard of, has this interesting kind of mind blowing perspective. Now there's so many of them and everyone wants to improve you and it's almost like. You know what? Why don't we just all relax a little bit? Maybe the improvement we all need is to stop thinking about ourselves for a little while.

• 8:28Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Yeah, there's a naval gazing like self obsession that comes with the self improvement, personal development space. And self obsession is an antagonist to personal growth.

• 8:41Adam Skolnick?

  There you go.

• 8:42Rich Roll?

  And so the narcissistic kind of egocentric aspect of being in this state or in this pressurized situation where you feel like you always have to be improving yourself. I don't think it's necessarily healthy and I plead guilty. I'm not only participating in this, I'm a purveyor of it.

• 9:03Adam Skolnick?

  Right.

• 9:04Rich Roll?

  So I've been reflecting on that.

• 9:05Adam Skolnick?

  And I think. Guilting us with your 4 a.m. gym photos.

• 9:08Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 9:10Rich Roll?

  I'm a contradiction, Adam. But I think at the core of it, like if you dig down beneath all of the layers, like what is driving all of this is a fundamental sense of being broken, you know? And and we always have to be fixing ourselves. What would it be like if you if you embrace the fact that you're not broken? We can all improve, but it doesn't have to come from that place of feeling like there's something wrong with you necessarily.

• 9:41Adam Skolnick?

  I think the the real truth is that like it's all just a repair job. Like this whole construct of society, you know, I've been, you're going to get into streaming later. I won't bring this up then, but I started to watch rewatch Mad Men again for the fourth time. And, you know, April's like, why do you like Don Draper? And why I like Don Draper is that he knows it's all a sham. That's what I like about him. Like it's all basically a sham, right? Our personalities, we kind of taped together and the society could could shatter. Everything is like hair trigger away from like going away. And we see that sometimes and feel it sometimes. And I don't say that as a cynic. What to me, it's like, that's just fact.

• 10:23Adam Skolnick?

  And so improvement doesn't solve that kind of existential crisis. What solves it is tuning into real moments. And that's my feeling. And so like, I'm less interested in.

• 10:38Adam Skolnick?

  Optimizing it. I've never really been into optimizing or improving. I like the organic nature of connecting. That's to me like the only way to kind of get us through any sort of tumult.

• 10:50Rich Roll?

  You need to get on the creatine.

• 10:54Adam Skolnick?

  Wait, am I ponchi? You see in the ponch?

• 10:58Rich Roll?

  I don't see. I see nothing but love and beauty, Adam, when I look at you.

• 11:02Adam Skolnick?

  Was that too cynical? Was that too dark for people?

• 11:04Rich Roll?

  No, I don't think so. I mean, John Draper is a, you know, an anti-hero and somewhat of a dark figure with a nihilistic perspective. So it's interesting that you are connecting with him. But I wouldn't have, I wouldn't have.

• 11:22Adam Skolnick?

  I don't see him as nihilistic. I mean, I understand why people think that, like there are no rules. That's not what I'm saying. I guess what I'm saying is there is soul beyond all the construct and we get caught up in the construct and improvement, proving ourselves can be a very nourishing experience. And I've done it myself and I strive to be better also. But like what I strive more for is like that authentic feeling of connection and presence. And I think that, lost in the nihilism of John Draper, is a soul. And he does connect and he does understand the nature of things. Maybe it's just me projecting and maybe he is written as a nihilist and I should just, but I think that's the perception.

• 12:04Adam Skolnick?

  But I feel like there is a soul nature that the other people that he works with don't have, that he understands. And that's why he can communicate on a deep level as an advertiser. I don't know why we're talking about this old show, but like, I guess what I'm saying is that's what is appealing to me more and more now, like than certain rules for getting better or improving this or that. Because I think what we found is that they're all unintentional consequences of any improvement, you know? And so it doesn't always go the way you want it. And life doesn't go that way. It's not what it's about. And so for me, it's about, I just want to encourage that connection.

• 12:41Rich Roll?

  A heart-centered, good faith desire to become a better person.

• 12:47Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 12:47Rich Roll?

  And I think that commitment to yourself and the impact that that has on other people is valorous and worthy of your investment of time. But I think for many people, the personal development urge comes from a discomfort with the uncertainty of life. And so when you think about what Phil Stutz has to say, these three truths, like, you know, no matter what you do, there will always be pain, uncertainty, and the need for constant work. And I think in this moment, we're experiencing an acute case of uncertainty, like, everything feels much more uncertain. I think things are always uncertain, but because of the way the world is at the moment,

• 13:30Rich Roll?

  it feels, it feels particularly uncertain.

• 13:33Adam Skolnick?

  Yes.

• 13:33Rich Roll?

  And so what do you do with that uncertainty? Uncertainty is uncomfortable. What can I control? Well, I can control my body. Maybe I can control my mind. Maybe I can control my emotions. And that gives you a sense of grounding.

• 13:48Adam Skolnick?

  Yes.

• 13:48Rich Roll?

  And so, but that's, that's sort of an unhealthy way to approach personal development. Like, oh, if I can just optimize my morning routine, or if I dial in my nutrition, then I can absolve myself of all of these uncertainties that unconsciously are making me deeply uncomfortable about life at the moment.

• 14:06Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I, I think you said what I'm trying to say, which is the uncertainty of life drives, drives, like, what is improvement? I guess is the question, right? Is the improvement, um, it's, it's, I agree. Like, I, I go on Noom once a year to, like, trim down. I, I have goals, uh, personal goals, fitness goals, and things like that. But I think, I'm not sure that improves me. What I know improves me is meditating. What I know improves me is getting in the ocean. What I know improves me is connecting and being more diffuse. So it's like, to me, this is just my opinion, and for me, I'm not suggesting everyone should feel this way, but for me, the less I think of my own bullshit, the better off I am, the

• 14:48Adam Skolnick?

  more diffuse I am, the more I am, I am the sky and the trees and the wind and the ocean, the more I feel alive inside. And that, to me, is self-improvement. I mean, to me. So that, I guess that's what I'm trying to say. And like, the more we, we go away from self-identifying, um, probably the better.

• 15:10Adam Skolnick?

  At least that's my personal opinion.

• 15:12Rich Roll?

  That's not as sexy as peptides.

• 15:14Adam Skolnick?

  No, you can't take a peptide for that, but you can microdose.

• 15:19Rich Roll?

  Yes, you can actually. You just have to change the languaging around it, you know, to to appeal to a certain cohort, right? If you if you switch it from being present or being service minded into this is your, you know, this is your mindset optimization protocol, then and I don't know what the wordage would be, but you can drape it in a certain way to make it sound like it is a peptide.

• 15:47Adam Skolnick?

  You know what? I got I had a nice life peptide the other day. So we do zoom and I do breakfast bros on the weekends. It's just just the two of us. We go out, but sometimes other people join us and you don't have to be a dude to be a bro. So just so you know, but at breakfast bros was just the two of us and we were sharing a blueberry muffin, waiting for our our plate of food to come. And I just got struck with one of those lightning bolt moments. We all have them where like you realize actually this is the only thing that matters. Like everything else I'm obsessed with in my life makes no difference at all. These moments, this moment here, I'm going to be thinking about this moment. I'm going to be I don't think I'll ever forget a moment like that. And it's like, and to like have that moment where you're like, whoa, that's all really it is, is collecting these amazing valuable

• 16:32Adam Skolnick?

  moments for our lives because they pass and then they're gone. And then you're back into the obsession swamp. And then then boom, lightning bolt. To me, like the more present you are, it doesn't mean you're fully present, like walking around like some light being that's crazy. Like, nobody's like that. Maybe, maybe a few people. I mean, even Jesus probably had his shit list. You know what I mean? Like people that pissed him off. But like, if we can bridge more of those moments, be alive more often, and collect more of those moments like that, to me is kind of like blew my mind. And so it just got, you know, I don't know what it is. And I'm in this era where like, what is important to me is that. And this, to me, what you're doing, what we're doing here is is kind of that,

• 17:15Adam Skolnick?

  you know, like what's what's the distillation of the podcast? It always was conversation. It always was just sitting down and and just talking and figuring out what's important to us in that moment. It's always been that way.

• 17:28Rich Roll?

  Look at you. You're ascending, Adam.

• 17:33Rich Roll?

  You know, that's a look smacking term, right? Ascending.

• 17:36Adam Skolnick?

  I guess that might.

• 17:36Rich Roll?

  But what you're ascending is Maslow's hierarchy of needs.

• 17:40Adam Skolnick?

  Is that what's happening?

• 17:41Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 17:41Adam Skolnick?

  Okay. And I have not microdosed before this podcast. Don't worry, folks.

• 17:46Rich Roll?

  Microdosing on, on love.

• 17:48Adam Skolnick?

  On love.

• 17:49Rich Roll?

  And presence.

• 17:49Adam Skolnick?

  I'm macrodosing on love right now.

• 17:51Rich Roll?

  I love that. I think that's absolutely correct. And, you know, any, any parent can testify.

• 17:57Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 17:58Rich Roll?

  To that.

• 17:58Adam Skolnick?

  I mean, you still have them. You're, you're going on to college.

• 18:00Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I'm taking our, our youngest to the East Coast tomorrow to look at some colleges.

• 18:07Adam Skolnick?

  Those trips must be awesome.

• 18:08Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's like, this is, this is like the joy and the gift, you know? Like you get to do these cool things.

• 18:15Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 18:21Rich Roll?

  One thing that I got to do in the context of being grateful to have certain experiences. I haven't been able to share this because we haven't done this in a while.

• 18:30Adam Skolnick?

  Right.

• 18:30Rich Roll?

  But I was at South by Southwest last month.

• 18:33Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 18:34Rich Roll?

  And just had like a peak experience. I know South by Southwest has been around for a long time.

• 18:39Adam Skolnick?

  Right.

• 18:40Rich Roll?

  And there's, there's kind of grousing like, oh, it's not as cool as it used to be. And they leveled the convention center. So the event was more diffused across Austin this year than it's typically like more centralized around this convention center. And people were complaining about that, but convention centers aren't exactly inspiring.

• 19:01Adam Skolnick?

  No.

• 19:01Rich Roll?

  Places for, you know, idea exchange or like cultural artistic events. And so I actually thought it was cooler.

• 19:09Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 19:09Rich Roll?

  Because that meant all the events were in different types of, you know? They were domiciled in all different kinds of buildings.

• 19:16Adam Skolnick?

  Okay.

• 19:16Rich Roll?

  It made it more interesting. Didn't seem to put a damper on the experience at all. Like I had such an amazing time, but I had this moment where in one day, I.

• 19:32Rich Roll?

  Went and introduced Tom Sacks onto the main stage and got to say a few words and shower him in love and bring him up on the stage. Tom Sacks being a guest on the podcast, this New York City sculptor and kind of icon in the art world. Awesome guy. And he was so happy that I was there. He gave me a hug and he's like, I can't believe it. It was like, are you kidding? Like, this is so cool. I can't believe you asked me to do this. Like, this is amazing. And then I left there and I went over to the Rivian house and got to spend like two hours with RJ Skerringe, the founder and CEO. And we got in a new R2 and drove around and it was all mounted with cameras. And we recorded

• 20:14Rich Roll?

  kind of a comedians having coffee in cars or whatever that Seinfeld thing is, like a version of that. Yeah. And that was so fun. Yeah. I had such a great time. He's such a nice person and it was exciting to help tell the story of the release of the R2 vehicle for them, which is a great story. Did you guys do any carpool karaoke? We didn't sing. Nobody wants to hear that. Nobody wants to hear that. No? That video hasn't come out yet. I don't know what's going on with that, but that, I'm sure that will come out at some point soon. Very cool. And then after that, I left and went to a party at this bar in the late afternoon

• 20:56Rich Roll?

  with Tyler, my stepson and producer, to, and it was a party put on by a magazine slash production company called Monster Children, which is an Australian publication. It's sort of a surf skate punk rock sort of, sort of enterprise. And I went there to meet Ed O'Brien from Radiohead and Ed's son, who I'd met the night before. To just get to know him because later that week I was going to be doing a Q and A with him.

• 21:32Adam Skolnick?

  Amazing.

• 21:32Rich Roll?

  On the precipice of him releasing his second solo album called Blue Morpho. And this documentary that he made to accompany that record, which is all about this journey that he's been on with mental health. So in one day, Tom Sacks, RJ, and then Ed O'Brien, like, you know, of Radiohead, like my favorite band. You know, it's just, I was like, how is this my life?

• 21:57Adam Skolnick?

  Right.

• 21:57Rich Roll?

  That I get to have this, these kinds of experiences and such a diversity of experiences, like a sculptor, you know, and, and like this guy who is reimagining, you know, automotive transportation. And then like this musician in the most iconic band of our lifetime.

• 22:16Adam Skolnick?

  Right, right.

• 22:16Rich Roll?

  It was just so cool. I just couldn't believe it was my life. And then I got to do.

• 22:21Adam Skolnick?

  But it speaks to South by Southwest, what you're saying.

• 22:24Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it was like, it was great. I was like, I couldn't imagine having a better experience, you know?

• 22:28Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 22:29Rich Roll?

  And then I got to host this conversation with Ed in a church, uh, like two days later, after screening, they, the, his documentary was screened. And then it was basically his cathedral and we got to have this conversation and they adorned the entire cathedral with plants. And it was really about his mental health and his relationship to his creativity and just magical, you know?

• 22:53Adam Skolnick?

  Wow.

• 22:54Rich Roll?

  It was really, it was such a cool experience.

• 22:55Adam Skolnick?

  That is a cool experience.

• 22:56Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 22:57Adam Skolnick?

  I mean, like, like I said, it just speaks to South by Southwest, still pulling in very interesting, creative, influential people, right? Still, still hasn't.

• 23:05Rich Roll?

  Hundred percent. It feels more relevant. Maybe this is just through my own personal biased experience or lens. Um, but it does feel more culturally relevant than it has in the past, at least with respect to film, for example, like the Sundance Film Festival. That was always like the big thing and it, I don't know if it, that feels like it's maybe on the wane a little bit. And the film side of South. By Southwest feels definitely more important than it has in the past.

• 23:38Adam Skolnick?

  Is that right?

• 23:39Rich Roll?

  Yeah, just, I don't know, it's cool. Like, and Austin's great. You're just in this place where you're riding bikes around. Everything's five minutes away and there's just so much going on, you know, like you can't even begin to tap into, you know, 2% of what's happening during that festival because there's so much going on.

• 23:55Adam Skolnick?

  I mean, you were on that stage with Ed, like when you do those bigger events, those bigger venues, do you get nervous?

• 24:01Rich Roll?

  I always get nervous.

• 24:02Adam Skolnick?

  Well, how do you calm yourself down?

• 24:05Rich Roll?

  You know, just deep breaths, you know, it's, it's sort, but it's, it's not a bad nerve, bad, bad nerves. It's, it's excitement because I want it to go well, you know? I want to make sure that I'm delivering for the audience and then I'm serving, you know, the person I'm speaking to and respecting them by being prepared and all that kind of stuff. Yeah.

• 24:24Adam Skolnick?

  Is he touring the, the record around?

• 24:27Rich Roll?

  So the album comes out in May, I think so. It's not coming out yet, but that conversation,

• 24:37Rich Roll?

  then like coincided with the release of a Rolling Stone article on Ed

• 24:44Rich Roll?

  that announced also that Radiohead is going to be touring again, which is pretty cool.

• 24:49Adam Skolnick?

  And you were saying to me, like, that people don't realize that Ed is foundational to the sound itself. Like he, like, kind of like John Frusciante, without him, that Chili Peppers wouldn't have become what they became. Like, like, the, like, all their best stuff came after that.

• 25:02Rich Roll?

  Yeah. When you listen to his solo album, you really understand his contribution to Radiohead. Like, he's the guy who's creating the entire kind of like sonic vibe of the, of, of the band's sound. Like, he's, he's the sound designer behind the scenes and he's somebody who has always been comfortable, kind of receded into the background. And if you watch concert footage or, or see performances of them, you know, he'll be like leaning down, like turning knobs and like, you know, playing with wires and stuff like that, but. Less comfortable being forward facing.

• 25:42Rich Roll?

  And this second solo album is the first time he's actually attached his name to his album. Like his first solo album was just EOB, like he didn't even put his whole name to it. So he's sort of coming out and standing on his own two feet and like owning his, his talent and his relationship to music. And it's kind of beautiful to watch because in Radiohead, and he's said this many times, like his job is to like serve the band and to like support Thom Yorke's, you know, beautiful lyricism and that extraordinary voice. And it's scary to step outside of that and say, well, this is me, you know, outside of Radiohead.

• 26:25Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 26:25Rich Roll?

  And I don't think any of us could imagine, like, can you imagine being in a band that is that huge? But because he is sort of somebody who is always been more in the background, he can still enjoy anonymity. Like we were walking around South by Southwest and yes, some people recognize him, but a lot of people don't.

• 26:46Adam Skolnick?

  Right, yeah, yeah.

• 26:47Rich Roll?

  And I'm like, that dude's in Radiohead.

• 26:49Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 26:49Rich Roll?

  You know, it's crazy.

• 26:50Adam Skolnick?

  You don't even know. Right. Well, especially in this era where we all have different famous people anyway. Like, nobody has the same famous people. But I will take what, pick one bone with you in saying Radiohead is the most iconic band of our lifetime. I disagree.

• 27:04Rich Roll?

  Well, you're wearing a Nirvana t-shirt.

• 27:06Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah. I mean, come on, is it, is it really a debate? Is there really a debate? I mean, not to me, like to me, I think, uh, the greatest rock star since this, you know, in the modern, in the modern day, since, since the 60s, 70s.

• 27:20Rich Roll?

  It depends upon your metrics.

• 27:23Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 27:24Rich Roll?

  Because it was such a short-lived band.

• 27:25Adam Skolnick?

  Yes, yes, yes.

• 27:26Rich Roll?

  You know, and, uh, and Radiohead has this greater canon of work. And they're still going, you know, they're still doing stuff.

• 27:34Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah, yeah. No, you, yeah.

• 27:35Rich Roll?

  But. If you're our, if you're our age, I mean, it's like,

• 27:38Adam Skolnick?

  I love Radiohead.

• 27:39Rich Roll?

  It's like, it's, you're wearing an iconic like Gen X t-shirt, right? Like you're just, you're repping Gen X, you know?

• 27:45Adam Skolnick?

  I'm repping the Gen.

• 27:46Rich Roll?

  And I'm a proud member of Gen X.

• 27:47Adam Skolnick?

  I know, I know.

• 27:48Rich Roll?

  I'm down with Nirvana, you know, hardcore. And similarly, I'm wearing a Mike D t-shirt.

• 27:54Adam Skolnick?

  You are.

• 27:54Rich Roll?

  Mike D 5D.

• 27:55Adam Skolnick?

  You are.

• 27:56Rich Roll?

  And the reason I'm wearing this, and this relates to music, I guess we can kind of segue.

• 28:00Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 28:01Rich Roll?

  Is Mike D from the Beastie Boys, uh, proud citizen of Malibu. Sort of an icon in Malibu.

• 28:08Adam Skolnick?

  I never even knew he lived here.

• 28:09Rich Roll?

  Oh, you didn't?

• 28:11Adam Skolnick?

  I don't know anything.

• 28:12Rich Roll?

  Dude, he, he's the man about town.

• 28:14Adam Skolnick?

  Is he really?

• 28:15Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 28:15Adam Skolnick?

  All right.

• 28:16Rich Roll?

  Surfer, lifestyle icon, like he moved to Malibu and he's really all about like healthy lifestyle.

• 28:24Adam Skolnick?

  When did he move here? Not, not long ago.

• 28:26Rich Roll?

  Oh, forever ago. Oh, forever. He's lived here forever. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But hasn't put out new music in a very long time.

• 28:32Adam Skolnick?

  Really?

• 28:33Rich Roll?

  And he has an album coming out soon, Mike D 5D. And he did a live performance in Malibu last Thursday.

• 28:42Adam Skolnick?

  Where? Tranqus? At that place?

• 28:43Rich Roll?

  No, on PCH, there's a surf shop called Brothers Marshall.

• 28:46Adam Skolnick?

  Okay.

• 28:47Rich Roll?

  You know where the general hardware store is like right by Las Flores?

• 28:51Adam Skolnick?

  Yes.

• 28:52Rich Roll?

  They took over that whole parking lot. And he performed, uh, kind of like an unpublicized, if you live in Malibu, you know, kind of thing. Like all Point Doom showed up for this. There was probably like 300 people.

• 29:04Adam Skolnick?

  Does he live at Point Doom?

• 29:05Rich Roll?

  Yeah, he lives in Point Doom.

• 29:06Adam Skolnick?

  But it was all the way over there.

• 29:07Rich Roll?

  But it was down at, yeah, like Brothers Marshall was sort of behind it. And the city of Malibu, like, you know, permitted this whole thing to happen. And it was super cool. Like it was a community event, like all Malibu was there. Rick Rubin was there.

• 29:22Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 29:23Rich Roll?

  You know, it was, it was like a whole thing.

• 29:25Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 29:25Rich Roll?

  But it was super cool, but.

• 29:26Adam Skolnick?

  Rick Rubin, didn't Rick Rubin do Check Your Head and, and, uh?

• 29:30Rich Roll?

  I think you're right. We might have to check the internet for which records he produced. Was it Check Your Head?

• 29:36Adam Skolnick?

  The, the second and third, what, the, uh, the Paul's Boutique, I think.

• 29:40Rich Roll?

  Did he do Paul's Boutique?

• 29:41Adam Skolnick?

  Did he not?

• 29:42Rich Roll?

  I'm not sure about that.

• 29:43Adam Skolnick?

  We'll check the internet.

• 29:44Rich Roll?

  Somebody can look.

• 29:44Adam Skolnick?

  Someone look it up.

• 29:45Rich Roll?

  Logan can look and double check. Yeah, Rick Rubin was there. And the opening act was a band called Very Nice Person.

• 29:56Adam Skolnick?

  Okay.

• 29:57Rich Roll?

  A Very Nice Person. Look this up too. Very Nice People, Very Nice Person, which is Mike D's son's band.

• 30:04Adam Skolnick?

  Okay.

• 30:04Rich Roll?

  Skylar and Davis.

• 30:05Adam Skolnick?

  All right.

• 30:06Rich Roll?

  And it's a cool band. They performed at South by Southwest.

• 30:08Adam Skolnick?

  Right on.

• 30:09Rich Roll?

  They're young kids, but they're kind of coming up. And then they played with Mike D also.

• 30:15Adam Skolnick?

  Epic.

• 30:16Rich Roll?

  Which was really cool. Like he's playing with his kids. And just to see Mike D like do his thing.

• 30:21Adam Skolnick?

  LeBron and Bronny, baby.

• 30:22Rich Roll?

  Mike D is a very quiet, kind of introverted person.

• 30:25Adam Skolnick?

  He's the Buddhist, right? He's the Buddhist. Wasn't he like a Buddhist?

• 30:29Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. He did a record. He did a Kirtan record many years ago with Bhagavan Das.

• 30:34Adam Skolnick?

  Okay.

• 30:35Rich Roll?

  Who's the guy who married Julie and I.

• 30:36Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 30:37Rich Roll?

  I mean, so, yeah.

• 30:38Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah. With Bhagavan Das or Krishna Das?

• 30:41Rich Roll?

  With Bhagavan Das. With Bhagavan Das. But Mike D, I don't know him well, but I've met him a bunch of times. He's a very, you know, he's a very quiet, like, introverted person.

• 30:49Adam Skolnick?

  Okay.

• 30:51Rich Roll?

  But then you see him on stage doing his thing and you're like, this guy is a natural born performer.

• 30:57Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 30:58Rich Roll?

  You know, and he's up there and he's like doing the thing that he was born to do. And everyone was so happy to see him do it.

• 31:05Adam Skolnick?

  That's awesome.

• 31:06Rich Roll?

  And he's got these new songs and I don't know, it was like, it was super cool. So I'm rocking, I'm rocking the merch.

• 31:11Adam Skolnick?

  That's awesome.

• 31:12Rich Roll?

  From that experience.

• 31:13Adam Skolnick?

  Mike D. You know, when I was, a million years ago, when I was going door to door to people's houses to get them to care about the ancient forests and try to save the ancient forests. I was, Laurel Canyon was like prime territory because liberals and they had money. And I went up there and I knocked on the door and I'm like right out of college. And there's a beautiful woman sitting on like in the kitchen, you can see all the way through the house. And um, there's two, two women and they're looking at I'm like, hey, cause I'm like, you know, hey, come on, I gotta sign my petition, give money. And um, it turned out it was Ione Sky. And then all of a sudden, Adam Horovitz comes out and sees me there and there's like a production trucks out front.

• 31:55Adam Skolnick?

  It's like this whole weird thing going on and I'm just trying to get in there and get, and he comes and he takes me, he moves me away, like he puts his hand on my hip and he moves me out of like view of his home. And he's like, what's going on here? I'm like, oh, we're just doing this thing, man. And uh, he gave a hundred bucks. He said, get, get out of here. He gives me a hundred bucks and he goes away. And, and then as I'm coming back down later, doing all the territory, one of the production guys comes up and says, hey, man, um, you know, we're doing a party here tonight. It's gonna be kind of a music video party thing. It's Friday Night Sky's record or whatever. You're welcome to come by, bring some friends, come over and come to the party. But I was so afraid of Adam that I didn't want to go.

• 32:38Rich Roll?

  You didn't go? Dude, how could you not go?

• 32:42Adam Skolnick?

  I don't know. I don't know, man. I don't know why it didn't go.

• 32:45Rich Roll?

  You didn't have a friend to like talk some sense into you?

• 32:47Adam Skolnick?

  A friend of mine in the group was like, dude, we gotta go. You have to take me there. I can't go without, I'm like, you go, just tell him it was you. You could have gone.

• 32:56Rich Roll?

  Yeah, you blew that one.

• 32:57Adam Skolnick?

  I blew it.

• 32:58Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 32:59Adam Skolnick?

  I blew it.

• 33:00Rich Roll?

  What is your relationship to music these days?

• 33:02Adam Skolnick?

  My Spotify age is a hundred and ten. Is that good? Um, no, I, I listen to, I'll tell you what I listen to. I listen to on the weekends, Alma Del Barrio. That's KXLU, eighty nine point nine. Um, it's a college radio station from Loyola Marymount here in town. And on the weekends, they play old salsa and, and cumbia, all the old Latin music. So it's, it's a, it's been running for fifty plus years. It's the best Latin music show in the world. If you like Bad Bunny, this is the shit you should be listening to. It's unbelievable. And so if you're not familiar with it, but you like the beats, it's, it, this is the place to go. So it's eighty nine point nine all day long. Um, so I do that. And then I do Henry Rollins show every week. He's KCRW.

• 33:46Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 33:46Adam Skolnick?

  You can get, both these can stream anywhere in the world. And so I do that and KCRW is like a pod. You can listen to it anytime. Almond El Barrio, you have to be streaming while it's going on. And then otherwise it's kind of like Spotify and whatever I hear from these other places I save on Shazam. I Shazam a lot of stuff. Um, the only new band, I know we talked about before, the only new bands, I'm, I'm, new bands is where I'm kind of like a little lost. Sometimes Henry Rollins will put some bands on. Great Australian band called TV Colors. That's new that I, that I'm into. Geese. Is really cool. I got that from, I think from Tiny Desk. And then Wet Leg, I like Wet Leg, but like my new stuff is like occasionally new stuff gets in there. But I'm a lot of times listening to old music, old jazz, old salsa, old rock and roll.

• 34:31Rich Roll?

  Yeah. I'm obsessed with Geese.

• 34:33Adam Skolnick?

  I love Geese.

• 34:34Rich Roll?

  And Cameron Winter's burgeoning solo career.

• 34:38Adam Skolnick?

  Unbelievable.

• 34:38Rich Roll?

  That guy is off the charts.

• 34:41Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 34:41Rich Roll?

  Talented. I, I can't stop listening to him. I know he's been sort of likened to his generation's Bob Dylan.

• 34:48Adam Skolnick?

  Is that right?

• 34:49Rich Roll?

  Time will tell, but you know, he, he's so young. And the fact that he's playing solo concerts at Carnegie Hall and then touring with the hottest rock band, you know, right now, it's, it's pretty cool to see what he's doing.

• 35:05Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah. And I, I didn't realize that he, he was soloing at, at Carnegie Hall.

• 35:09Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 35:09Adam Skolnick?

  I missed that.

• 35:10Rich Roll?

  And like Paul Thomas Anderson is, was, there's like videos of Paul Thomas Anderson filming him on stage. When he was at Carnegie Hall.

• 35:16Adam Skolnick?

  Is that right?

• 35:17Rich Roll?

  Like this guy is like.

• 35:19Adam Skolnick?

  And who is he touring with?

• 35:21Rich Roll?

  Uh, Cameron Winter?

• 35:22Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 35:22Rich Roll?

  He's the lead singer in Geese.

• 35:23Adam Skolnick?

  No, I know, but who, who are they touring with right now?

• 35:25Rich Roll?

  Oh, I don't know. I don't know. You mean who's their opening act?

• 35:28Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 35:28Rich Roll?

  I mean, they just played Coachella the other day.

• 35:30Adam Skolnick?

  But they're not the biggest band. You said biggest band.

• 35:32Rich Roll?

  They're like, well, they're not the biggest band in the world, but they're the band that's getting the most energy right now in terms of like new bands that are coming up. They're not that new. They've been around for a while.

• 35:41Adam Skolnick?

  To me, they sound.

• 35:42Rich Roll?

  But they're super young.

• 35:43Adam Skolnick?

  I know. To me, they sound a lot like the Strokes, to be honest with you. Like they remind me of early Strokes.

• 35:48Rich Roll?

  They're really iterating on, on that. Like they're doing a lot of really interesting new stuff. And it's just cool to see.

• 35:55Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah, it is cool.

• 35:55Rich Roll?

  Cause there was a period of time where I thought like, is rock is rock over? Like, are we done with it?

• 36:01Adam Skolnick?

  That's right.

• 36:02Rich Roll?

  Then, you know, sure enough, like a band like Geese comes along.

• 36:05Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 36:05Rich Roll?

  And you realize, oh, there's more to say here, you know?

• 36:08Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah, cause EDM, EDM. Well, that's why I say like Bad Bunny, EDM, like all this. It all comes from musicianship and you can tell with Cameron Winter, you can tell with yeast, the musicianship is just top notch. And so like to me, like it all starts there. So um, that's why I like the old stuff because that's when musicianship really mattered more. And so the more we get, I think the more things advance technologically. I used to really like EDM when it was like more underground and stuff. And now I don't really listen to it ever. Um, and so maybe I'm just this guy that doesn't like things once they get popular. It's very possible that's, that's true. I am, I am that.

• 36:42Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 36:42Adam Skolnick?

  But um, I like the grit, I like it to come from the earth. You know what I mean? Like, I like it. I mean, rock and roll, what's cool about it is it's a mix of the two. Like you're saying with Radiohead, kind of creating that mood with electronic enhancement.

• 36:55Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 36:55Adam Skolnick?

  That's cool.

• 37:01Rich Roll?

  At Coachella right now, Radiohead has this underground bunker.

• 37:05Adam Skolnick?

  Really?

• 37:05Rich Roll?

  Have you seen this?

• 37:06Adam Skolnick?

  No.

• 37:06Rich Roll?

  Yeah. And it's like going down into, I didn't see this personally, I've just watched videos online. You're going into some kind of fallout shelter underground. Did you see Tenant, the movie Tenant?

• 37:20Adam Skolnick?

  Yes.

• 37:20Rich Roll?

  So you know, at the end, when they're kind of, they're doing the reverse pincher movement or whatever. And they, they have to go underground to the place to get the whatever.

• 37:29Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 37:29Rich Roll?

  It's kind of like that. You go in this tunnel and you go underground. And it is this massive art installation. Which I think is really cool, this merging of music and art. Because there's so much interesting art associate, like iconography associated with Radiohead. And. At the same time, we have gorillas, speaking of like semi EDM, right? That is having this kind of retrospective moment right now. They were on Saturday Night Live.

• 38:02Adam Skolnick?

  Is that right? Okay.

• 38:03Rich Roll?

  They had this installation in downtown Los Angeles in the Arts District called House of Kong. Did you know about this?

• 38:09Adam Skolnick?

  No, I didn't know about this.

• 38:10Rich Roll?

  Similarly, this was like a temporary museum piece. Where you would go in to this seemingly dilapidated building from the outside called House of Kong. And inside, aligning all the walls, like you kind of walk through this experience of the band with all of the,

• 38:31Rich Roll?

  all of the iconography, like all of the the character drawings, starting from the first iterations of them and how it evolved over time. And this, so it's this merging of visual art with music that I think is really cool.

• 38:42Adam Skolnick?

  Well, I mean, that that goes back to Burning Man, right? I mean, Burning Man and then wasn't Coachella kind of iterating on Burning Man and making it a more commercial, like mainstream music experience with art? It always had instant art installations.

• 38:54Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I suppose.

• 38:55Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah, Coachella always had that. I remember when Coachella, I don't know how much it costs to go to Coachella these days, but like early days was like a hundred bucks and you can get one day passes.

• 39:03Rich Roll?

  It's a lot now.

• 39:04Adam Skolnick?

  Now.

• 39:04Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Now you need a certain number of Instagram followers to even be able to buy a ticket, I guess.

• 39:10Adam Skolnick?

  Are you going?

• 39:11Rich Roll?

  Uh, no, I've never gone.

• 39:13Adam Skolnick?

  You've never gone?

• 39:14Rich Roll?

  The boys have gone many times. Julie's gone. It's a, it's a bit much for me, honestly. But I like watching, I like watching, I like watching videos of it.

• 39:25Adam Skolnick?

  I could tell a Daryl X Coachella story right now, but I'm not sure.

• 39:28Rich Roll?

  Yeah, no.

• 39:29Adam Skolnick?

  Sure.

• 39:30Rich Roll?

  But I would say this, I I've been stuck in my Gen X music bubble forever.

• 39:35Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 39:36Rich Roll?

  And I realized like, I need to break out of this. Like, it's just becoming like too repetitive and I need to like, in the same way, I'm exploring a different relationship with the podcast, like I want to explore a different relationship with music. And one thing you'll discover, like Zoom is too young.

• 39:53Adam Skolnick?

  Right.

• 39:53Rich Roll?

  You're at the age where. You're trying to impress upon him your musical taste. Yeah. I'm sure, right? Yes. But when they become teenagers, they commandeer uh the the the music selection in the car, right? Yeah. And then you have this opportunity to start to listen to what they like. And so I've been leaning into that. And what you realize is like, oh, your kids are the portal to like what's actually happening and what's cool and like what they're interested in. And I've really expanded my my like kind of musical interests as a result of that. And when I go into the gym on those early mornings,

• 40:32Rich Roll?

  sometimes I'm preparing for a podcast and so I'll watch videos on the TV of, you know, some person who I'm going to be speaking to later that day. But if I don't have that, I've been more and more just exploring music. And like, oh, Joe Alexis Bam, like, let's see what's on YouTube with this man. Or like watching, you know, live Geese concerts or Tiny Desk concerts or I like Tiny Desk. KEXP. Okay. Um, has a series of amazing like music live performances. Check them out. Which is really cool. I love the, I love the, those local stations. And then my guy, Jack Coin, who hosts this show called Trackstar in Right. New York City, he has um videos of like live performances in his studio.

• 41:16Rich Roll?

  And I've just, it's opened my world to all these cool bands like Geese and Cameron Winter are just one like Turnstile. Like this super cool band that I'm I'm gotten really into that is kind of punk, kind of rock and roll. They're, they just had a huge show at Coachella too. And I think they're just so exciting and so energetic. And what I love about Turnstile is in this age in which artists, creative people, musicians are being fed this story that

• 41:51Rich Roll?

  The only way to be successful is to be just constantly releasing stuff like putting music out like every week, a new song, a new music video, a new this, a new Tik Tok. These are guys, this band went in the other direction and whatever money they made from their live performances or whatever, you know, their, their music, they reinvested in the band and they have made these extraordinary like music, video documentaries that are executed at just the highest level, like their art pieces in and of themselves that have just put them at a different kind of tier of craftsmanship.

• 42:27Adam Skolnick?

  Okay.

• 42:27Rich Roll?

  And their live performances are just, you know, so energetic like, and I just think it's really.

• 42:33Adam Skolnick?

  Turnstile.

• 42:33Rich Roll?

  They're, they're like taking this punk rock genre and then they're adding this high level of like visual art, um, this visual art like aspect to it.

• 42:43Adam Skolnick?

  Cool.

• 42:44Rich Roll?

  That I think is super interesting. Um, and then in terms of like other bands that I've gotten into, have you heard of Angine de Poitrine?

• 42:52Adam Skolnick?

  No.

• 42:53Rich Roll?

  So this is this, uh, Quebecois, like French Canadian band.

• 42:58Adam Skolnick?

  Yep.

• 42:58Rich Roll?

  It's a, it's just two people and they dress up in these, I don't even know what you would call these costumes, but they're, you don't see their faces, like they're wearing these elaborate costumes and it's just instrumental and it's the most interesting musicianship that I've heard in a long time. So they're having like this moment right now where they're breaking through. That's really cool.

• 43:18Adam Skolnick?

  Quebecois, Montreal, great city.

• 43:21Rich Roll?

  So, yeah. And Wet Leg, I love Wet Leg.

• 43:23Adam Skolnick?

  I love Wet Leg.

• 43:24Rich Roll?

  But there's, there's a lot of bands I've noticed also, like in this Angine de Poitrine vein where they're, they're, they're obscuring themselves. So they're anonymous. You don't know who these people are.

• 43:33Adam Skolnick?

  Masked singer.

• 43:34Rich Roll?

  Which maybe was started with, with gorillas.

• 43:37Adam Skolnick?

  Yes.

• 43:38Rich Roll?

  Right? Like being anonymous and creating, creating characters, Daft Punk, yeah.

• 43:42Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 43:42Rich Roll?

  Or Marshmello, I guess now.

• 43:44Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 43:44Rich Roll?

  Um, there's another band called Kurong Ben.

• 43:48Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah, I love Kurong Ben. Yeah.

• 43:50Rich Roll?

  I'm super.

• 43:50Adam Skolnick?

  They've been, they've been around a while now.

• 43:52Rich Roll?

  They've been around. Yeah. But like, I'm discovering this.

• 43:54Adam Skolnick?

  Zuma loves Kurong Ben.

• 43:55Rich Roll?

  So there you go. So Zuma already.

• 43:57Adam Skolnick?

  No, Zuma.

• 43:57Rich Roll?

  But you introduced Zuma.

• 43:58Adam Skolnick?

  But Zuma is very intentional. We already listen, he already dictates the playlist, but it's cool stuff right now. But I think to your point is like, he's gonna, he's gonna start hearing stuff we have no idea about and he's gonna bring it to you and that's cool.

• 44:11Rich Roll?

  So it's been fun.

• 44:11Adam Skolnick?

  What about this new band, Manger? Big fan, big fan.

• 44:15Rich Roll?

  Well, this is the most happening band.

• 44:17Adam Skolnick?

  The most happening band.

• 44:19Rich Roll?

  Manger is my wife Julie Piatt's band. She just put out her first song and music video this past week. If you follow me on social media, you've uh, you've enjoyed that.

• 44:31Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 44:31Rich Roll?

  She's got more to come. And it's been great to see her step into this really authentic creative expression.

• 44:40Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 44:40Rich Roll?

  And she's so happy doing it, you know, like this is what she should have been doing a long time ago.

• 44:45Adam Skolnick?

  And she's rocking it.

• 44:45Rich Roll?

  It's just great.

• 44:46Adam Skolnick?

  She's, she rocks, man.

• 44:47Rich Roll?

  Like owning it.

• 44:48Adam Skolnick?

  She owns it, dude. It's like Patty Smith, Sheryl Crow, Julie Piatt, you know, it's in that.

• 44:52Rich Roll?

  And you wrote that beautiful bio for her.

• 44:54Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah, yeah. But I mean, it's all real, it's true. And then to have your, you know, you guys, your family involved, it's amazing. Her son's involved.

• 45:02Rich Roll?

  Super cool.

• 45:02Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 45:02Rich Roll?

  It's super cool. And she said uh, something the other day that's so true, like, so we went and saw Mike D and he's playing with his two boys.

• 45:11Adam Skolnick?

  Right.

• 45:12Rich Roll?

  And then you have um, Jeff Tweedy, who's like touring with his kids right now. Julie's playing with her boys.

• 45:19Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 45:19Rich Roll?

  It's a thing.

• 45:20Adam Skolnick?

  It is a thing.

• 45:21Rich Roll?

  Musicians playing with their kids.

• 45:22Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 45:23Rich Roll?

  It's cool.

• 45:23Adam Skolnick?

  That's how it goes, man. That shows you how old rock and roll is.

• 45:26Rich Roll?

  I know. But it's exciting to see uh, you know, Julie flourishing creatively and the kind of happiness that, that and the sense of satisfaction that comes with feeling like you're fully expressing yourself authentically.

• 45:40Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah, and then also just the idea of music, you know, it's like, it's interesting, like, I've been learning guitar last few years and just like, but I, I did, like, I was a choir boy. I sang, I sang all the way up to like, to college and I.

• 45:54Rich Roll?

  With the bells?

• 45:55Adam Skolnick?

  I didn't do the bells. No, I didn't do the bells. But like, but then having music not really be my expression after that became more writing. And then finding it again. There's something about like, the music itself, just having the music in you and around you. And you're making it is like, it just like, it just uplifts your energy, I think. Unless you're like doing it out of pathos, if you're doing it just purely out of love, which is easy when you're new. And it's, and, and she's made it new again, essentially, you know, like, and her whole story amazing, like that her brother is a serious musician, her uncle is a serious musician, right? Like, so she's got it in the blood.

• 46:34Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 46:34Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 46:35Rich Roll?

  What have you been watching?

• 46:36Adam Skolnick?

  Okay, so.

• 46:37Rich Roll?

  Media diet.

• 46:38Adam Skolnick?

  Media diet. Most recent thing I watched all the way through is something called The Dark Wizard, which is an HBO documentary series. It's coming on online on Tuesday. So by the time this airs, it'll be out. It's all about Dean Potter, the great climber, free soloist, base jumper, wingsuit pilot. And it's his whole story. So Dean was one of the, you know, one of the, after the Stone Monkeys, one of the, like, the punk rock guy that came in and just blew up Yosemite Valley and right away was like free soloing stuff nobody would even think of doing. And he was before Alex, it was Dean. But what you

• 47:19Adam Skolnick?

  don't realize is that Dean was 6'6". I never knew that. 6'6". So there is advantages to being tall on a face, I guess, but like, there's also serious disadvantages. It's kind of like a small person's game. Like, you know, this kind of, it's like gymnastics. So like, there's, there's a scene of him at the, like, soloing a root on the top of LCAP, that root that Alex has to wedge his body in and kind of shimmy up that crack. He's 6'6" doing that. Like, I mean, he's wedged and you can see the pain. And so, you know, it's, it's a very, this guy is a beautiful soul, an artistic vision, a really amazing person. His, his journals, they, he has, they have access to his journals. So his

• 48:03Adam Skolnick?

  journals are just incredible. And so you get a sense of the, of his psychology and, and kind of, you know, he's one of those guys that had mood swings. And so he was depressed a lot. But he also was a, was a groundbreaking athlete. So I, it's amazing to, to watch. I think it's four episodes. Yeah. Four episodes, each one's about an hour. And you go deep into it. And of course, it's a tragic end. He died when he was 43 in a wingsuit base jump accident in Yosemite Valley. You know, when it was an outlaw's sport. He's like, one of the great outlaw athletes. And Alex is cast as the antagonist, which is, I think, refreshing for Alex also, but also kind of cool.

• 48:43Rich Roll?

  How is he the antagonist?

• 48:45Adam Skolnick?

  So basically, when Dean is the, he's, he's the king of the valley. He's the man, right? And then Alex shows up and he's a teenager living out his van. And he just starts free soloing stuff that Dean, he's heard Dean wants to do and he does it, he does it before. And so, and then, and then the cutaway conversations with Alex, you get a sense of the killer instinct that created this amazing athlete that is Alex Honnold. You get a sense of it. You don't really understand why he's that way. Like, was there something? Did he show up? Was he treated obnoxiously by the cool crowd? Is, is it not? But one thing that comes across is like Dean is climbing from a lot of pathos. Even in his early climbs, when he does this amazing route, he's up there like,

• 49:29Adam Skolnick?

  you know, howling like a monkey and, and making it very, very much a, a kind of, there's rage involved. There's pathos. There's a passion and love too, but there's also this other stuff. And just being around Alex and watching him climb and seeing it at the end of, of um, free solo. He climbs from a place of joy. He just loves it. So even though he's the engineer, he's not the artist. Like, like Dean is the artist. Dean is like the, he has this amazing artistic vision. Alex is more the kind of engineering guy that sees how to do something and then goes out and does it. But it's interesting to, to watch them both climb and see the difference. You know, it's funny that you think of the engineer guy as the guy climbing from love and this guy climbing from pain.

• 50:10Adam Skolnick?

  Um, but it does seem that way. And of course, the dark, you know, Dean, um, at the end, you know, he has this, this relationship with Ravens comes into play. There's just like an incredible, it's just an incredible film and he's, he's just one of those iconic athletes that was gone too soon.

• 50:28Rich Roll?

  Four-part series.

• 50:30Adam Skolnick?

  Four-part series.

• 50:30Rich Roll?

  And he died in a wingsuit?

• 50:32Adam Skolnick?

  Died in a wingsuit, base jump with his friend, um, um, Graham.

• 50:38Adam Skolnick?

  I forget his, I'm spacing on it. They call him Grambo. So it's Dean and Grambo who die. They both are going for this notch from a place called Taft. Taft Peak, I think it is, or Taft Exits, an exit off Taft Mountain in Yosemite, and they're going for this notch. And Graham had done it before. Dean had not. There's a competitive aspect of Dean that comes into play and he's, it's there with Alex and Alex does outdo him. You know, Alex is the new athlete on the block that does take his place. And I think towards the end, he was the boss of the wingsuit guys, like he, he revitalized base jumping in Yosemite. Dean did, and he had a whole crew.

• 51:17Adam Skolnick?

  My, a guy that I'm, I'm writing about named Jeff Shapiro was on the inner circle with Dean at the last couple of years of his life. And it was this amazing elite group of phenomenal climbers and phenomenal, phenomenal base jumpers and, and wingsuit pilots. And just, they were just raging across the valley, doing this amazing stuff. And at first, Dean was against flying terrain. He wanted to fly long, high flights. But then he gradually got, as more people started doing these terrain lines, which is where you're closer to the edge, because you can feel the, the speed more. But it's also much more dangerous. He started to do that and he started to do these insane terrain flights. I mean, he was an amazing wingsuit base jumper.

• 52:00Adam Skolnick?

  But then Graham, a younger guy who was his protege, started to do these incredible jumps. And that, that kind of perked Dean's competitive nature up again. And, and Jeff told me that, that confirms that. The one thing, this, this is amazing. The one thing that doesn't come across that I, I think they showed the video, but they don't talk about it, is the athleticism. At one point, Alex references kind of freebasing, which was freestyle with a base rig so that you have some safety net. You know, they use some out of context quote of Alex kind of dismissing that. I'm not sure how much he really dismissed that, but they use that nice quote to make it seem that way. But Dean, being able to fall off a face and then position your body where you're tracking away from the mountain.

• 52:46Adam Skolnick?

  Talking to Jeff, the athleticism involved. To that is just next level. You see the the footage of it. It's incredible to see him do it. But to actually perform that is very rare. So we were talking about a, you know, iconic athlete in his own right.

• 53:00Rich Roll?

  So you're working on this writing project, interviewing lots of these wingsuit guys, right?

• 53:08Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 53:09Rich Roll?

  What have you learned? Like, what is the common, you know, strain across that ecosystem of athlete? That is different from, you know, I don't know, the endurance athlete or the tennis player? Like, what's unique about that subculture and that personality type that you've discovered?

• 53:29Adam Skolnick?

  I'm not sure I have figured out, figured that out yet. It's a good question. I hope next time when we're actually talking about a book that's out, I'll have that down. But like,

• 53:38Rich Roll?

  This is why you're interviewing them.

• 53:40Adam Skolnick?

  I'm still very much in the reporting phase. What I will say is there's something about being close to death like that? That makes you appreciate life, I think. And some, you know, talking to Jeff, I can tell you from Jeff's perspective. It, it, being close to that. It does bring into focus these moments that we talked about before and how rare and precious they are. And that's Jeff, though. He's a thinking man. You know, some of them are just chasing the fun. You know, there's definitely people who are just like, this is fucking awesome. I'm gonna rage. You know, like that kind of adrenaline rush. But then there's others that are a little bit of a mix. I think Dean was an artist. You know, there's an amazing shot in this thing where he is doing a slack line. He's also one of the early slack liners.

• 54:25Adam Skolnick?

  And so he was, he walked solo to slack line in front of the rising full moon in Yosemite Valley Cathedral Peak. He strung a slack line between the two kind of peaks of this mountain. And, and he's, he's doing it. And Mikey Schaefer, who is part of the crew in Taipei, he shot it for Dean. It's one of the most beautiful things you'll ever see in your life, this video footage. It's just incredible to see the silhouette of Dean in front of this massive moon.

• 54:51Rich Roll?

  Yeah, wow.

• 54:52Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah. So that's what I've been watching. Yeah, that's the main thing.

• 54:56Rich Roll?

  That's cool. Check that out.

• 54:57Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 54:57Rich Roll?

  Uh, on the, on the subject of like athlete nonfiction streaming content.

• 55:02Adam Skolnick?

  Yes, yes.

• 55:02Rich Roll?

  Uh, I did watch the Mariah Wilson, uh, documentary on Netflix.

• 55:06Adam Skolnick?

  Okay.

• 55:07Rich Roll?

  That story is one we've covered, we've covered here on Roll On. The story of the gravel racer, uh, Mariah Wilson, who was very much on the come up and was gonna be, you know, like this just, you know, phenom in that sport, being murdered in cold blood by the girlfriend of Colin Strickland, this woman Kristen Armstrong. Uh, it's an insane story. It's like kinda perfect for Netflix, cause it's like true crime, you know?

• 55:33Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 55:34Rich Roll?

  I wouldn't call it a cinematic masterpiece, but if you're interested in that story and that world, I think it's worth watching. What I took away from it was A, just the, the premeditation of Kristen Armstrong going into this murder, like they track like all of her movements in, in the car and all this sort of stuff, like it's really bone chilling. And then second to that, and perhaps more importantly, the impact that it is, that it has had, not just on like Mariah's loved ones and family, but also on Colin Strickland, like this guy is, will never be the same, you know?

• 56:12Adam Skolnick?

  Of course not.

• 56:13Rich Roll?

  You can see him interviewed after, in the aftermath of it and, you know, he will carry that to his grave, you know, it's, it's.

• 56:21Adam Skolnick?

  How could you shed that?

• 56:23Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 56:23Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 56:25Rich Roll?

  Other than that, what have I seen that's been good? Well, I saw my boy Dan McPherson's new movie Beast.

• 56:31Adam Skolnick?

  Okay.

• 56:32Rich Roll?

  Which opened this weekend. Do you know this movie?

• 56:35Adam Skolnick?

  No, but I, I saw you post about it, so tell me about it.

• 56:37Rich Roll?

  So, Dan McPherson is a friend of mine. We've been friends since like 2012. Um, Aussie, uh, former Iron Man, half Iron Man, endurance athlete. Uh, well known in Australia. He was the host of Dancing with the Stars.

• 56:55Adam Skolnick?

  Okay.

• 56:56Rich Roll?

  For a number of years back in the day, moved to LA to become an actor.

• 57:01Rich Roll?

  Things weren't going amazing. He moved back to Australia and he's had some success since then. He's, you know, been in lots of stuff. He was in um, Foundation HBO sci-fi show. He was on a TV show called Strike Back. He did a couple of movies uh in supporting roles with Russell Crowe. But Beast, he's the lead and he plays a mixed martial artist, like an MMA fighter.

• 57:31Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 57:33Rich Roll?

  And he kills it. And Russell Crowe plays a supporting role to Dan, which is super cool. Uh, yeah. And, and Russell was a co-writer on this movie and I think a producer as well. And it's released by Lionsgate and it's, you know, in movie theaters. And so it's just like a very cool moment for him, for somebody who's been in his game for so long to finally be uh, you know, in a leading man role. So it's super fun.

• 57:59Adam Skolnick?

  Congrats.

• 57:59Rich Roll?

  He came over to the house this morning. We worked out. So it was great to see him and celebrate that.

• 58:04Adam Skolnick?

  That is amazing.

• 58:04Rich Roll?

  So I enjoyed that. He did a great job. And, you know, I know him as a guy I used to ride bikes with and talk about triathlon. And then when he got this Strike Back show, he bulked up because he was playing like a special forces guy. So he got all like super jacked and bulky. But then he had to learn how to become a martial artist. And he spent three years like studying jujitsu and Muay Thai and all this sort of thing. So that he could, you know, kind of really acquit himself well in this movie. And by all accounts, he has done an amazing job because all of these people in the fighting community are like, that is the most realistic portrayal of our sport that I've seen on screen. So it's pretty cool.

• 58:44Adam Skolnick?

  You mean like people like Mark Zuckerberg?

• 58:46Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yes. The, the experts, the martial arts experts.

• 58:50Adam Skolnick?

  The best ones, the best guys. Um, you know what? I studied Muay Thai once.

• 58:54Rich Roll?

  Did you?

• 58:55Adam Skolnick?

  I did. I, so when I, I covered Thailand for Lonely Planet.

• 58:58Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 58:58Adam Skolnick?

  I was living in Phuket for periods of time. And so whenever I was there, I'd go, there was a Muay Thai gym near. And I would do it, but they kept trying to get me to do the grappling stuff. But you know, Rich, you know me. Do I look like a grappler to you?

• 59:12Rich Roll?

  You really don't.

• 59:13Adam Skolnick?

  I don't grapple. I do not grapple. Yeah.

• 59:17Rich Roll?

  You grapple, you grapple with your emotions and your neuroses. That's what you, that's you're, you're, you're a black belt grappler.

• 59:24Adam Skolnick?

  When I'm grappling, something's going wrong. I want to flow. That's where I want to be.

• 59:29Rich Roll?

  But isn't that what a Muay Thai fighter does? Like at, at the highest level, you're in, you're flowing.

• 59:34Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah, yeah. The highest level grappling is flowing. That's the thing. That's what I haven't figured out. Flowing is grappling is flowing.

• 59:41Rich Roll?

  Now we're in a, we're like in a, uh, we're in a vortex going to nowhere in this conversation.

• 59:46Adam Skolnick?

  Let's go to the moon.

• 59:47Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Let's go to the moon.

• 59:49Adam Skolnick?

  Let's go to the moon.

• 59:50Rich Roll?

  What do you have to say about Artemis, Adam?

• 59:52Adam Skolnick?

  Um, I loved it. You know, we made it a family moment to watch the launch. Um, we watched the launch, we watched the splash down. I didn't, I did, I wasn't fully listening to everything, but there's a great podcast I was tuning into. Thirteen Minutes Presents, the BBC podcast. That was a cool little, it's a talky show with, with a British astronaut and then some science journalists. And they talked about everything. And so they kind of brought more perspective on a daily basis to what was happening. I mean, I just think it's a, I think like the main takeaways for me are like, I am a lunatic. Meaning I love the moon, right? The language of, of these things, lunatic sphere of influence.

• 1:00:32Rich Roll?

  Is that the origin? Is that the etymology of the word lunatic?

• 1:00:36Adam Skolnick?

  Yes, people who love the moon.

• 1:00:38Rich Roll?

  Is it that they love the moon? Or is it that like the full moon is like, yeah, it's like, yeah, it is, yeah, it's like howling at the moon.

• 1:00:46Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Moon howler. So lunatic sphere of influence. So at one point Artemis, uh, crew went beyond the influence of the gravitational pull of earth and to, uh, into the gravitational influence of, of the moon. So it was under the moon's sphere of influence. I didn't know that that was the thing. Sphere of influence.

• 1:01:06Rich Roll?

  What does that mean though? I don't understand.

• 1:01:07Adam Skolnick?

  It means you're under the gravitational.

• 1:01:08Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I understand that, but why is that?

• 1:01:10Adam Skolnick?

  Well, you've heard of the, of the phrase sphere of influence, like, you know, somebody like rich, we're in your sphere of influence.

• 1:01:16Rich Roll?

  You're saying that is the etymology of that phrase.

• 1:01:18Adam Skolnick?

  Must've come from the Apollo times. I'm guessing. I mean, it comes from physics. And then free return, another cool phrase. Cause. After they so the the crew went up, they were close to earth, they got they approached the moon. Then they did an interesting slingshot maneuver, a rant to get on this path to go around the far side of the moon. They're the furthest away in space of all time. And they get the amazing eclipse shot and and and all of that. And then they they get on this path to where they're on the path of free return, which meant even if they'd run out of fuel. Everything went bad. They were coming back to earth. Which is interesting to think about, like how physics works, like these smart people that all the math. That's one thing that I got from that podcast. All the math, all the physics, everything that you hear about.

• 1:02:04Adam Skolnick?

  What's it for? It's for this kind of stuff, you know, it makes that possible. To get back on that path of free return and to get back. And so. You know, there's so many little moments, the naming of the craters, but for me, like, I love the Apollo program. I have Earthrise in our dining room. You know, like I have a little print of that. So I love this stuff. And yeah, it was a cool moment. I did think on the way when they splashed down. And I felt for them because they splashed down and all of a sudden they had to reboot their sat phone like they couldn't call anybody.

• 1:02:34Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:35Adam Skolnick?

  And then it took forever in the Navy to do their thing. And it's like. It's like coming off of a transcontinental flight and then being stuck on the tarmac for like an hour and a half.

• 1:02:44Rich Roll?

  Yeah, there's something so relatable about the very minor challenges that they faced.

• 1:02:52Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:52Rich Roll?

  In the context of just the grandest, you know, like most exquisitely executed mission ever.

• 1:02:59Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:00Rich Roll?

  They landed in exactly where they said they would, like within like within seconds of what they predicted, right?

• 1:03:06Adam Skolnick?

  Right.

• 1:03:07Rich Roll?

  Everything was just nailed to such a precise, insane degree. But they did have like certain challenges.

• 1:03:14Adam Skolnick?

  But then they still couldn't get out for like.

• 1:03:16Rich Roll?

  Yeah, they couldn't. So I saw a really funny tweet about this. Hold on. This person, Leah Crane, who I don't even know, it just came up on my timeline. She says. Deeply, deeply hilarious that everything on the Artemis two mission worked perfectly, except Outlook, a conference call, and briefly the toilet. Which is just like any office workers, you know, experience, right? Like, oh, they have the same, their issues are the same as mine.

• 1:03:45Adam Skolnick?

  That's brilliant. That's brilliant. Yeah, that's brilliant.

• 1:03:48Rich Roll?

  But I think there's just something, you know, beyond just how extraordinary the whole thing was. And you were more locked in on it than I was. Like, I watched the splashdown. I didn't watch the launch. And I wasn't following it that intensely. But here are a group of like, middle-aged people who are just like, good people, who are smart, who are doing a cool thing. And there's a wholesomeness to it and a hopefulness and an optimism that is like exactly the prescription we need right now. You know, and like, I just appreciate that and am grateful for that. Like, I just think it's, I think it's super cool.

• 1:04:29Adam Skolnick?

  And they named, they named Crater after the crew chief Reed. What's Reed's last name? Maybe Hastings? I forget. But his, and then they named it for his wife who died of cancer like a couple of years before.

• 1:04:41Rich Roll?

  Colleen, I think.

• 1:04:42Adam Skolnick?

  Colleen, yeah. The two things I want to say is that they risked their lives. It was a one in 20 chance that those heat shields wouldn't work on the way back. Cause they were flawed heat shields and they'd had in the test flight. And these got, these, this crew of four people still did it. Now, why would they do it? People would ask, you know, some former astronauts were saying they shouldn't have done it. And that NASA was, was being unnecessarily risky. But, you know, one thing I will say from interviewing these, these wingsuit base jumpers. And then, I think I just got pooped on by one of your birds, but in a good way.

• 1:05:13Rich Roll?

  We're Al Fresco.

• 1:05:14Adam Skolnick?

  It's good luck. You know, what you, what you realize is these people will go for it. Because if, if this didn't happen now, it would happen two years from now. And these astronauts might not get it, the chance again. So this was their chance and it was a one, they, they had figured it out from the data, a one in 20 chance. And that was enough, that was good enough for them. And so they risked their lives, man. It was not like, I mean, it's easy to, they're back now and it's, it was always working. So it seemed fine, but like, they had just, they had CO2 scrubbers that were getting, that, you know, it's like a rebreather. It's like living in a rebreather, like these diving. Rebreathers that don't have bubbles where you what you breathe out gets scrubbed and served back to you as oxygen. That's what they were breathing on. So they had backup tanks and everything if they had to get back.

• 1:05:57Adam Skolnick?

  But they were they were living off these these CO2 scrubbers and and they were risking their ass. I mean, it's it's very, very interesting. And it's also cool, like you're saying, in this era of the United States where we're waging war right now, a needless war that is, you know, that is causing all this kind of repercussions from and it seems like almost mindless, the way it's been executed and lacking in humility and and and thoughtfulness. You know, if you're going to go to war, I would wish you were humble and thoughtful about how you're going to execute it versus rash and maybe stupid. And now this is the other thing the United States is executing this amazing, thoughtful, fearless experience of the deepest we've ever done. So it shows you the capability of this country

• 1:06:41Adam Skolnick?

  in both ways, and it's kind of like encouraging, but also makes you kind of feel like, wow, we're we're very schizophrenic, like all countries are.

• 1:06:51Rich Roll?

  Yeah, the polarity, like the the extreme polarity of like what's happening politically and you know, globally, in terms of global conflict and like this war that we're in and all the insanity that's happening right now. And then this this just incredibly uplifting thing at the same time, like it's a weird schizophrenic situation, like it's a yes and kind of deal, I guess.

• 1:07:14Adam Skolnick?

  But here's where they tie together. There's like this dominance, this this this lust for dominance that is at the the core of our culture that has always existed in the United States and and I think Trump is part of that and all of this is part of that. But also like NASA's part of that, like Artemis's goal is to get close to the moon so we can build a base on the fucking moon. I mean, it's crazy. Like, it's crazy. I don't want a base on the moon. Do you want a base on the moon?

• 1:07:44Rich Roll?

  I'm into space exploration and, you know, ultimately, long term, like expanding the horizon for our species, but.

• 1:07:58Rich Roll?

  I'm not into just replicating the mistakes that we're making here elsewhere. You know what I mean? So if you watch that TV show like For All Mankind, like it really explores that idea. And what was the, um, that beautiful Brad Pitt movie? That's about his relationship with his father where he-

• 1:08:16Adam Skolnick?

  Gattaca?

• 1:08:17Rich Roll?

  No, no, no, no, no, no. At Astra. I just re-watched At Astra like a month ago. Um, and it's the same thing. They go to the moon and the moon is just fast food restaurants. And like, you know, it's just, they just, we just export like our culture. Like you think it's going to be different and the same, you know, turf wars and territorialism. And we're just replicating our mistakes, right? So this is, this is the point you're making.

• 1:08:42Adam Skolnick?

  That's the point I'm making. And like, by the way, not, not for nothing, using a rich phrase. The moon does influence our tides, which is like the ocean and the weather and everything. It's like, let's be careful with the fucking moon. You know what I mean? Like, it's like, it's, it is part of this biological system. So let's have humility. You know, it does take balls. So you, it's not like humility is always the best play. It does take incredible guts and strength and focus. And I appreciate those things too. But like, I think to be really strong, you have to have humility. Like, I think often force is mistake, is mistaken for strength. And strength is something totally different than that. It's includes, includes humility.

• 1:09:25Adam Skolnick?

  And so, you know, that's my only concern, my only note, my only note for NASA is like, make sure we're humble about this.

• 1:09:32Rich Roll?

  But that's not NASA's, uh, remit. You know what I mean? Like their remit is to do the exploration part. Like, you know, the rest of it is up to, you know, us and the government, I suppose. Right? But we haven't answered the most important question. The whole purpose of this Artemis two mission, which was to put the test to the flat earthers. Have we put the nail in the coffin of the flat earth movement with this?

• 1:09:59Adam Skolnick?

  Definitely not. You know, somewhere there's a flat earther-

• 1:10:01Rich Roll?

  What is the argument? What is the flat earther argument now?

• 1:10:04Adam Skolnick?

  I'll tell you, somewhere there's a flat earther listening to this being like, I can't believe Richard Emmer falling for this Artemis bullshit. Like that didn't happen.

• 1:10:12Rich Roll?

  So it just didn't. So basically, it's just it's saying like this was another Stanley Kubrick-esque like, you know, Hollywood production and none of this happened.

• 1:10:22Adam Skolnick?

  Do you know where Stanley Kubrick was the day of the launch?

• 1:10:24Rich Roll?

  Is he still alive? Maybe he directed it.

• 1:10:27Adam Skolnick?

  Oh, right. He directed it from beyond.

• 1:10:30Rich Roll?

  Are we there yet? Is this where we're at?

• 1:10:32Adam Skolnick?

  I don't know. I don't know.

• 1:10:35Rich Roll?

  Let's end on a hopeful note, Adam.

• 1:10:36Adam Skolnick?

  All right. Ending on a hopeful note.

• 1:10:38Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Splash us down.

• 1:10:40Adam Skolnick?

  Okay.

• 1:10:41Rich Roll?

  With our damaged heat shields.

• 1:10:43Adam Skolnick?

  Take us to safety. Well, I think, you know, the takeaway from Artemis, from the astronauts' perspective that I've seen, is the same as the takeaway of almost every, you know, experience from all the astronauts. It's that when they're up there, they fall in love with the beauty of the earth and everybody on earth. And so, you know, you see, when you're out in the vacuum, in the void, you see what we have so clearly and it's so beautiful. You know, it stands out so incredibly. And so, I mean, I think that's where I'm at. It's like, let's enjoy the beauty of what we have because even though some terrible things are happening, terrible things have always happened, like we've said.

• 1:11:23Adam Skolnick?

  And so, I think that's the takeaway for me. It's the same thing I said at the beginning of this episode, which is, I try to focus on the moments of beauty because they're sublime. It's not just one beautiful thing that doesn't matter. It's like everything. And so the more deep we can be in those moments of, you know, nirvana, and Artemis was a moment of nirvana for all of us together that we could share in, then all the better. So, you know, thank you to NASA and everyone for doing that because it's beautiful.

• 1:11:53Rich Roll?

  Artemis II was a one-upper to Alex Honnold's Type A 101 climb.

• 1:12:00Adam Skolnick?

  It definitely was.

• 1:12:00Rich Roll?

  They really one-upped him with that, didn't they?

• 1:12:02Adam Skolnick?

  They really did.

• 1:12:03Rich Roll?

  But it is the consistent refrain of every astronaut who has had that experience when they come back and they're like, when you have that perspective of the earth from such a distance, you realize, oh, it's a spaceship. We're all on it together. It's so small. We have more in common than, you know, much more in common than our differences. And they repeat that and we understand that intellectually, but there's something so experiential about that, like because it's so moving for them, like it changes them. And I wish we could be changed just by hearing them reflect that back to us.

• 1:12:42Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:43Rich Roll?

  Like, we get it.

• 1:12:44Adam Skolnick?

  Right.

• 1:12:44Rich Roll?

  But we don't get it like they get it.

• 1:12:46Adam Skolnick?

  No.

• 1:12:46Rich Roll?

  And if we did, maybe we would be better at resolving those differences and avoiding going into poorly conceived global conflicts and, you know, killing each other unnecessarily.

• 1:12:58Adam Skolnick?

  You're bringing us down again. We gotta bring us back up, which is that there are moments like that. Like, life is for the person to experience. Life is to be experienced. To the tie, the wingsuit, to Alex, to this, to the astronauts, to everything we're talking about to your, to what we were talking about at the top of self-improvement. Life is a sport. It's an active sport, right? It's a sport for the people in the game. And so, that's, I think that's the takeaway, is you can find those moments of connectivity. They're available to you here on Earth all the time. You have to seek them out, though. They're not gonna necessarily bite you. Maybe a few times in your lifetime, something will smash you on the head, some realization.

• 1:13:41Adam Skolnick?

  But you can decide that I'm gonna go sit by the sea, walk along the river, walk through the farmland. You could find a way to connect with the beauty of the Earth every day of your life. I encourage it. I think there's nothing more empowering than just sitting down and watching the world go by sometimes. You know, like, that's what I think is the most important thing. And I wish more people would do that. And not just the world, not just like in a cafe. Although, everything's wildlife, really. We're all wildlife. But like, if you can get out to someplace where their nature is really showing itself, you can have those moments yourself.

• 1:14:17Rich Roll?

  I love it. You did it. You splashed us down beautifully. More evidence of Adam Skolnick ascending.

• 1:14:27Rich Roll?

  I think we did it, man. Thanks for doing this.

• 1:14:28Adam Skolnick?

  Thanks, man. I love this.

• 1:14:29Rich Roll?

  This is cool. We're out here. It's amazing.

• 1:14:31Adam Skolnick?

  I felt more present with you in this one. Yeah.

• 1:14:34Rich Roll?

  Yeah. To be continued. Thanks, everybody, for tuning in.

• 1:14:37Adam Skolnick?

  Thank you.

• 1:14:37Rich Roll?

  Till next time. Peace.