Jamila Robinson on Leading Bon Appétit, Picking 50 Best, and the Case Against Anonymous Critics

This week on The Chef’s Cut, Adrienne and Joe are joined by one of the most important figures in American food media: Jamila Robinson, editor-in-chief of Bon Appétit and Epicurious. Together, they offer a behind-the-scenes look at food criticism. What does it take to get noticed by a major publication like Bon Appétit? How much testing goes into their recipes? And how does Jamila go about helping to pick the 50 Best for North America? Plus, we discuss: Should critics remain anonymous anymore? The Restaurant PR Myth: How important are publicists in the food world? The difference between a Michelin Star restaurant and a local favorite Food and recipes as a form of storytelling Cultural trends in cuisine Turn and Burn: Is Caribbean food the next big thing? Follow Jamila: @jamilarobinson Follow the show: @chefscutpod Follow Adrienne: @chefadriennecheatham Follow Joe: @insta.flamm

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:02Adrienne Cheatham?

  This week on The Chef's Cut, we have Jamila Robinson, editor in chief of Bon Appetit and Epicurious, who also serves as the East Academy Chair for North America's 50 Best. This week, we're talking about food critics outing themselves.

• 0:16Speaker 01

  The idea of anonymity is silly in 2025.

• 0:20Adrienne Cheatham?

  Does the boss at Bon App actually cook her own magazine's recipes?

• 0:24Speaker 01

  All the time, especially the baking recipes.

• 0:27Adrienne Cheatham?

  And the truth behind 50 Best.

• 0:30Speaker 01

  How is this world's 50 Best restaurant? How is this different from like my taco shop down the street?

• 0:35Adrienne Cheatham?

  Full length video of The Chef's Cut is available on YouTube and Spotify, so be sure to hit subscribe right now so you don't miss an episode.

• 0:45Adrienne Cheatham?

  For people who may not know, we met years ago. I was at an event and somebody really wanted to introduce me to you. And before walking me over to you, they pulled me aside and were like, she is the most important figure in American food media. So, I mean, just, just so everybody knows who we have here today. How did you get started in food journalism in the first place?

• 1:10Speaker 01

  I've only wanted to be a journalist. It's my passion. It's the only thing I've ever wanted to do as a profession. And then for my hometown newspaper, the Detroit Free Press, I started as an editor. And one of my sections for the Detroit Free Press was the food section. And I found that the storytelling around food was so engaging. I loved working with the food critics and the food writers and finding you could discover all of these interesting things about people's personalities if you ask them questions about food. And as a writer, it was exciting to find ways to describe flavor.

• 1:53Speaker 01

  And I found that with trying to write headlines that said more than, oh, this is good, this tastes good, this tastes very, very good. But to really use the language and the power and the flavor and using all of the senses, and that really excited me. And still, to this day, my philosophy really is that recipes are a form of storytelling. And I always saw food as this other form of art and this creative pursuit that helped me be as creative a journalist as I possibly could. So it's comes, my love of food comes from my love of journalism.

• 2:29Joe Flamm?

  Yeah, I think like I love the way you said that. I love food journalism, especially in the long form. I think it's just, it's so special. People who understand that beautiful synergy between what chefs like Adrian and myself are trying to do to use food to tell a story or show a history of something and being able to convey it for us in words for people who can't see it physically in person.

• 2:52Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah, it's like you guys translate what we do in a way that we can't. We can't always reach people with the stories. We tell our stories through the food itself and then the journalists interpret them usually the right way if they're a good journalist and then they transmit that story to the broader public to be able to articulate what it is we're trying to get across.

• 3:14Speaker 01

  Oh, I love that because I think of food as the art form that we all participate in. You can use all the skills you would use with storytelling. It's variations on different themes. That's recipes are often that. And then being able to achieve high levels of creativity, especially on the plate, on the plate, off the plate, in the kitchen, outside of the kitchen. I think when we are telling stories about food, essentially we're telling stories about people. We are connecting the dots of our humanity and our expression.

• 3:48Adrienne Cheatham?

  And you've been doing this for so long, Jamila. I mean, Detroit Free Press, now as the editor in chief at Bon Appetit. What is a typical day for an EIC at a major food publication like Bon App? What does your day look like?

• 4:02Speaker 01

  Oh, my gosh.

• 4:03Adrienne Cheatham?

  I imagine it is fabulous. Eating great food all day.

• 4:07Speaker 01

  We go places and eat things, but ultimately, a day at Bon Appetit is not only working with really smart, really creative people, but a typical day is setting the table on the day. What are people talking about? What stories are people talking about today? And even a day like today, our cookbook author, Adam Arachi, had his cookbook duped by AI. And so we just posted a story about what happens to a cookbook author when AI makes a knockoff and why we should Have trusted sources. So it's looking at what is the story of the day and then going into the test kitchen and seeing what's happening there. We are developing recipes right now for

• 4:49Speaker 01

  our spring issue. And then on many nights, I'm eating at a restaurant. We do our tastings. Today is a Thursday, so we will have a tasting in the test kitchen at about 1:00 PM. We'll walk through and give the recipe developers feedback. And those recipes will show up in the next issue. And I'll go eat in a restaurant and then we will do it all over again tomorrow. But it is,

• 5:17Speaker 01

  it's, it's, I love to say that I probably have the best position at Condonast because it is the kind of storytelling that really does impact people's lives immediately. But also, what I get to do is I get to help interpret how people are eating, how people will manage their pantry, how they will manage their restaurant and travel guides. And being able to give people really concrete, service-oriented information that they can trust. Knowing that we create recipes and recommendations that are expert-led, these are things that we, products that we use,

• 6:01Speaker 01

  ingredients that we support, recipes that we know are tested. So when you go into your own kitchen, they are going to work. We've tried them. So that's a kind of a typical day of what I'm thinking about and how our team is working together. But it's, it's an exciting place.

• 6:18Adrienne Cheatham?

  One thing that you conspicuously left out, which I find fascinating is that you report directly to Anna Wintour also.

• 6:25Speaker 01

  I do, I do. And, you know, and it's, did you know that?

• 6:31Joe Flamm?

  I don't know who that is.

• 6:32Adrienne Cheatham?

  Which, how do you not know Anna Wintour? The iconic bob, the glasses, front row at the, like, Joe, come on.

• 6:39Joe Flamm?

  Is she from the South Side?

• 6:42Speaker 01

  The best thing about working for Anna Wintour is that she has incredible trust in her staff.

• 6:50Speaker 01

  And and when you work in a place like Condon Ast, our aim is always to be thinking about how we are shaping culture. And it really has made me think a lot about how restaurants shape culture, how recipes shape culture. And we don't always think about food as this cultural shifting tool.

• 7:13Speaker 01

  You know, we see that with fashion and music or art. Or, oh, here's the here's the 10 movies that changed the game. And here's 10 fashion trends that changed the game. But for us, it's thinking about like a lava cake. Everybody makes one. You can buy it in a box now. But at some point, some chef had to invent that dish. And that

• 7:34Joe Flamm?

  Michelle Bra, right? Isn't that

• 7:38Joe Flamm?

  crazy enough?

• 7:40Speaker 01

  Exactly. And now we all know how to make one. Wrapping fish in parchment paper or banana leaf. We've had from the beginning of time. But then seeing how it changes through culture and how it changes continents and how something like a Gojujang that maybe 10, 15 years ago, you had to go to a very specific Asian market. You can get on any shelf and it's going to be in a hamburger or it's going to be on fried chicken. It's going to be all of these things.

• 8:12Joe Flamm?

  Now there's artisanal Gojujang at Whole Foods.

• 8:16Joe Flamm?

  Made by like hipsters in Berkeley.

• 8:17Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right.

• 8:19Speaker 01

  But we had to, we had to find the ways that those things shifted culture. And, and, and that is sort of the beauty of working here with very, very smart people who are really thinking about the future of our different industries. And I want both, I want both an appetite to have the same kind of sensibility that whether you're dining in or you're dining out, this is the place where it's going to be your trusted voice.

• 8:44Adrienne Cheatham?

  Pull that back a little bit. How does an idea get pitched and then wind up being something that half of America is cooking a few weeks later? Like, what is that process?

• 8:56Speaker 01

  So we have a pitch process where we're thinking about, what are the content environments that people are going to be experiencing at a particular time? So for our next issue, for example, is going to come out during the Olympics. And we'll have a Super Bowl. The Olympics and it's winter. So what are some themes that we can start to pitch around? Knowing there will be significant cultural moments that are happening at that time. And so we try to forecast what people are going to be thinking about and talking about. And then we will sit in a room. People will send us pitches, whether that is internal or external.

• 9:40Speaker 01

  And we will debate and brainstorm and then come up with a set of stories and recipes that will speak to that cultural moment. And then we will also look at our archive, you know, Bon Appetit has the world's largest archive of recipes. We have sixty thousand dishes in our recipe archive that you can find on our, on our app and on our website. And so we also want to be sure that we are looking at creating menus that will go along with the new recipes. So if we're thinking about great new recipes for the Super Bowl and how to get through, you know, your game day season. We also want to pull back and sort of look at, okay, what were people making for Super Bowl fifty and Super Bowl forty?

• 10:25Speaker 01

  And when was the last, what city is it going to be in?

• 10:28Joe Flamm?

  I love, I love that. I love those like dig when you get into old recipes. And I love when like, like Bon Appetit, you know, some other ones they have where you can dig into the old recipes. And I love when you see the ones like, oh, this is from, you know, this in two thousand and three. You know, it's a roast chicken dish. You know, it gives a time and place. And I think that's so.

• 10:47Speaker 01

  Time and place. Yeah. And so when people think about our recipes that are coming in twenty twenty six, you know, I would love for them to look back thirty years. Oh, what were they doing? Oh, the Super Bowl was in San Francisco. Here's why they made these particular recipes.

• 11:01Joe Flamm?

  Getting into recipes, I think one of the things, you know, during the pandemic, I was a stay at home dad for a year and a half, uh, trying to get my restaurant open. And so one of the things I would do is I was cooking more at home than I ever had in my life. So I probably cooked, you know, twenty meals a week at home. And so my wife would just go through a Bon Appetit or go through any other food magazine. And she would just rip out recipes and give me a stack and be like, hey, I want to try these. And I'd be like, okay. And I'd just cook them. You know, I didn't do a lot of recipe cooking before that, you know, out of like magazines and cookbooks and. So I would just cook, you know, probably 15 meals a week out of recipes. Wow. And so it was really interesting, like just trying out recipes for people. And it's like, you know, I think I'm a pretty adept cook.

• 11:45Joe Flamm?

  And so like, you know what I mean? I could get through the knife work and such. But like, like this is one of the questions I always thought about as like I went through, you know, just tons and tons of recipes. So like you said, you have a, you have a tasting later today, right? Yeah. When you're sitting in there and they're like, they picture this recipe. They're like, this is our chicken thigh orzo, you know, roasted carrot dish. And they're like, it takes 45 minutes. Are you sitting there and being like, all right, cool. Clock starts now. You have 45 minutes. Set me this dish up. You know what I mean? Right, right. And like putting them on it. Because sometimes I was like, the timing on these recipes is really good. And then sometimes I was like, I am hauling ass. And I am franking.

• 12:26Joe Flamm?

  And like, I got this done like by the wire, but you gotta find me like who else? So are you in the kitchen?

• 12:33Speaker 01

  Well, are you, are you with the timer? It sounds like Joe has the one with the one with the timer.

• 12:37Joe Flamm?

  You know, I am. I'm like, all right, this says 45 minutes. I'd be like, all right, it's 4:45. We're eating dinner at 5:30. I have to get this up at 5:30. You know what I mean? In my mind. So I'm like going, you know, I got three things going at once. I'm like knocking out the knife work. It's like, sometimes it was like a push. And I was like, who else is knocking this out in 45 minutes? And I was like, I want to go to this test kitchen and stand next to this guy. I'd be like, all right, set the timer, let's go.

• 13:01Speaker 01

  Okay, well, we'll have to invite you to the test kitchen. But I think that does, I mean, but you raise a really good point of being able to create a recipe and make a recipe that will function for most home cooks. I mean, that's who our audience is when we're thinking about those. Yeah. And especially, you know, we're very experienced cooks. Our test kitchen recipe developers are very experienced chefs. And so thinking about what will the home cook experience? And that's why we have cross testers to come in and give us feedback about the recipes. And, you know, like I can maybe make something in 15 minutes that we might say takes 30, because I might have a knife skill or a baking skill that.

• 13:45Speaker 01

  Half of our audience may not have, but I think what we want to do at Bon Appetit is give you recipes that you can cook through your lifespan. And of course, they will become easier the more you make them. And in some cases, the recipe, you know, there are times that you don't need that recipe anymore. You know it by rote. Sometimes you might put the clock in to see, oh, the no need focaccia. Is it half a teaspoon of salt? How much salt goes into it? But I think, you know, we are trying to help upskill our, our, our, our audience. And I will also say, we also know that we are, we make recipes for people who like to, we want people to like

• 14:24Speaker 01

  cooking them, to be excited about making them. So if it takes a little longer, because there's a joy in the result, you're not, oh my gosh, this recipe took me two and a half hours. I make mackerels during the holidays and I never think about it. But it's, it's a three day job.

• 14:40Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah.

• 14:40Speaker 01

  Right. But I don't think about it as much.

• 14:42Adrienne Cheatham?

  And that's the thing. People like the first time you make a recipe, follow the actual recipe.

• 14:47Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 14:48Adrienne Cheatham?

  Follow the steps, follow the order, follow the measurements, all that. And then you can start to freestyle. But the first time you make it, you have to follow the recipe because then you won't know what you can speed up or swap out until you know what the final result is supposed to be. And doing the cookbook testing, you know, Joe and I have, have talked about this a lot. Like I told him, I tested all the recipes several times through the editing process, but also sent them to home cooks.

• 15:15Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 15:15Adrienne Cheatham?

  With different skill levels and farmed them out. And then there's a community bulletin board over here in New Jersey that they love to test recipes. Here's 12 recipes to test. And they were sending me notes, sending me pictures. So things that weren't on my radar for how to describe these for a home cook, completely changed how I wound up writing the recipes for it.

• 15:36Speaker 01

  Absolutely. We want to be sure that we have recipes for people in different parts of their lives and then they can continue to upskill as well.

• 15:44Joe Flamm?

  You know, sometimes we'll get the requests from magazines where you want a recipe from the restaurant, right? And they're like, give us a cook friendly version. And you're like, Jesus. Like, you know what I mean? It's like, one, it's like, I gotta scale this backwards. I gotta scale this backwards where it's like, I go from, it's like, okay, we, you want, they're like, you know, we do a home friendly version of the pork ribs. It's like, well, one, this takes three days to make in the restaurant. Two, we make 120 racks at a pop. So you're like, trying to scale everything backwards. And I'm like, and because I, I, I like, you know, I, I, I love, you know, food magazines, recipes. It's like, I'm always like, trying to be really meticulous about it. Cause I'm like, I really want it to work. You know what I mean?

• 16:21Adrienne Cheatham?

  Do you test it, like, you scale it down?

• 16:23Joe Flamm?

  No, I just like, really am like, thinking about it. I'm like, okay, yeah, this will work. And then trying to figure out, I'm like, what's a reasonable ask of a home cook to do this? You know what I mean? I can't be like, okay, cure this for a day, and then roast it the next day. And then confit it in pork fat for three hours, and then let that sit a day. Then take it out of that pork fat. There's nothing else you're gonna do with that pork fat. Save it for the next time you do this. You know, hopefully it'll be soon. But you know, and I think so, it's always kind of funny, like, people come to the restaurants, like, oh, can I have this recipe? And it's like, yeah, you can, but it's like, I might as well, you know what I mean? Like, just write it in Chinese. It's not gonna help.

• 16:56Adrienne Cheatham?

  It's like, do you want to make 200 zucchini fritters?

• 16:59Speaker 01

  Oh, my gosh. Oh, a zucchini fritter. Oh, that sounds, oh, I'm so hungry now.

• 17:01Adrienne Cheatham?

  The ones with rosemary are so good.

• 17:03Speaker 01

  Oh, my gosh. So delicious.

• 17:04Adrienne Cheatham?

  And I read, I listened to that Bake Club episode with the, I think this, you guys are doing, what is it? Um, Black Forest Pavlova?

• 17:12Speaker 01

  Black Forest Pavlova.

• 17:12Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah. I think I'm making that.

• 17:15Speaker 01

  But, and, oh, it is fantastic. It's a little boozy. Um, but I think, you know, especially when it comes to restaurant recipes, you know, it, again, it's a different audience. So we, that's why we think it's really important to collaborate with the chefs and not just like, here, here chefs, scale it down. But here chef, can you work with us and let's develop a version of this recipe that we know, and not only know is friendly for the home cook, but we can incorporate different kinds of techniques, or there may be products that we recommend, or that you recommend, that someone might want to incorporate their kitchen. And that gives us a lot of opportunity to be sure that a recipe can evolve, that is gonna be successful. Cause that's ultimately the goal. We want people to have things that

• 17:58Speaker 01

  not only are successful, but they're gonna love to eat and they're gonna, they're going to want to cook it again.

• 18:04Adrienne Cheatham?

  And this is only a part of what you guys do at Bone App. So the upskilling, the giving people recipes to use throughout their lifetime. I love that, but it's only a part. Like you also do a lot of new restaurant lists and dining guides and recommendations on where to go. And one thing that chefs always ask and people ask in general, like, how do these chefs and restaurants get onto BA's radar? How do they, how does Jamila hear about these places?

• 18:35Speaker 01

  Well, I am a restaurant person, but for the process for the best new restaurants list, we have a team of scouts who are going out to restaurants every day for a good period of the year. We start almost as soon as best new restaurant closes, which is always in September. We start on the next one. And so we're looking at restaurants that are opening. I think it's really important to have a team of local experts. So you will see writers from different cities giving us their recommendations. And then we'll put all of those in a database and then sit down with all of the editors. And we think about, okay, which restaurants are really moving and shaking? Which restaurant do we want to see more of?

• 19:20Speaker 01

  And, and we kind of set some criteria and we are going out and scouting and then letting the editors kind of pick the ones that they really think deserve that recognition.

• 19:32Speaker 01

  It is, it's, it's a process, you know? Creating a dining guide is really not only giving people a great set of recommendations, but it's also giving them a travel guide. As a scout and a restaurant person, I'm always thinking about, are there dishes I haven't seen before? Are we going to be talking about this restaurant? Are restaurants like this going to be popping up in every part of the U.S.? I said in my restaurants column this year that there are things, some of these factors will separate a really good neighborhood restaurant from a really good national restaurant, from the best of the best that you will see show up with, you know, two or three Michelin stars or will atop a 50 best list or those things.

• 20:17Speaker 01

  And a lot of it is subjective, right? You know, we all have different palates, different taste levels. I love a three-star, 20-course, sit me down and feed me all day kind of restaurant, but I also love a hot dog. And I love fries. So am I, do I get the same amount of joy from like eating a chili, a Coney Island hot dog as I do with my three Michelin stars? Everybody's gonna have a different factor, but I think there's this, what separates the really great restaurants are restaurants with the ability to change culture, where it starts to change the way people cook, or they change the way that they build a menu,

• 21:00Speaker 01

  the way that they are using ingredients, or the way that they are thinking about farming or sustainability. Those are really getting into like other echelons of, of, of restaurants. And so to be on the Bon Appetit Best New Restaurants list, we think those are the restaurants that really have the potential to be change makers. And, but they're also delicious, great places to eat, take a family, take a friend. And, you know, and that can really change a neighborhood and change travel for people.

• 21:33Joe Flamm?

  So I, I totally get how you guys in the criteria, and I think it's, you know, makes total sense. But I'm always curious, and I think a lot of these chefs out there ask, like, you know, I'm in a big city, so it's like, we have lots of people, you know, you come to Chicago, you can text a hundred people on where to go. Detroit, same thing. But you know, if you're the chef and you're in a place like, you're in, you know, you're in Dubuque, Iowa, and you're like, I think I opened this incredible restaurant. I think it's really good, but I don't have a food writer. You know what I mean? I don't have anybody coming here. You know, like, how are they getting to you? You know what I mean? Are they sliding in the DMs and they're like, you know, you know, Jibella, please come to, you know, Dubuque, send someone to Dubuque, send anyone, I'll bring you a plate.

• 22:14Joe Flamm?

  Like, whatever it is, like, you know, how do those, you know, the Bentonville, Arkansas, those little places, like, how do they, how do they get on your radar?

• 22:22Speaker 01

  That's why it's so important to have a nationwide network of experts, so that the Dubuque, Iowa's, the Bentonville's, suburban Cincinnati, we, by having a network of people who are in cities, they can give us the best of their region. You know, it's one thing to be in an, in a Dallas or Houston, but you know, where do you go to eat in Marfa, Texas? Well, you have to have somebody who's local or what's the best burrito in San Antonio? You need a local expert to really give you that insight. And then because they know their communities so well, we can pull those people together. And then, then when we are doing, when the editors are doing our scouting, then we're making visits.

• 23:06Speaker 01

  Then we can make visits to those restaurants. I think social media has made it a lot easier for us to know about more restaurants. And making those connections, networking, you know, a lot of it is okay. You know, and, and but it's also thinking about, okay, where did the, where had the chef? Maybe the chef had stodged at a restaurant in New York and now they're going home to go open a restaurant in their hometown. But by having that local network, I think is what really can set us apart. A lot of what the scouting process for best new restaurants does is allows us to forecast trends and allows us to forecast talent.

• 23:50Speaker 01

  So, and that can be in really small places or that can be in big cities. Because look, it's also really difficult to stand out in a city like New York or Chicago or LA. So how do you find the spots that will stand out that maybe don't have a huge press budget? For example, a huge PR budget to tell you, hey, come here, come here, come here. No, it might be, oh my gosh, I was staying at a hotel and this hotel restaurant is amazing. They're doing some really interesting things. The chef came up from CIA in Napa and is now in Bozeman. We can start to watch those patterns and that, a lot of that is from a network of relationships.

• 24:34Joe Flamm?

  So when this network hits you and they're all like, you know, let's say me and Adrian are your local, you know, Arkansas news crew too. And we're like, yo, you gotta come down here. We got the spot in Little Rock that's just gonna blow you away. Then it's like, once you get the final and you're like, okay, these are the 20 final. Now do you, are you like flying around and you're hitting all 20 and you're like, these are the 11? Like line them up like, I like to imagine it and maybe this isn't the way you do it. Maybe it could be next year. I'm just throwing it out there. Everybody walks around a room and it's like Best in Show style, like a dog show. You're like, first, second, third, Best in Show. That's how we're doing Best in Restaurants this year. And you just walk out of the room. And then everybody's like, oh, my God, that was incredible.

• 25:13Speaker 01

  That would be, that would be one, one way to do it. I think we like more of a, we like a little bit of collaboration around, around the decision, around the decision making. Well, you know, what's important is that we are thinking about restaurants that people are going to love to go to, that we really believe that are great restaurant experiences. I mean, that ultimately what we're trying to do is provide the service.

• 25:36Adrienne Cheatham?

  But it's interesting to know this because there's also like a misconception in the food industry that it's like, if you hire this PR company, you're going to get on this publication's radar. There's this misconception that PR drives it. And I think that's, you know, even people who don't work in the food industry are, you know, ask sometimes like, how does this restaurant get so much coverage?

• 25:57Joe Flamm?

  You hear it all the time. They're like, oh, it's all PR. It's all PR. It's like, no, it's, it's an awesome concept.

• 26:03Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, yeah, we kind of forget that sometimes the restaurant is really good. And everybody wants to go there, you know, sometimes, or it might be a restaurant that's getting a lot of buzz and you go and it's magical. Like, I think we, sometimes we forget that chefs and people in hospitality, you know, their, their work is making magic. And, and sometimes that magic, you know, extends beyond the restaurant. So it wouldn't, I mean, and look, we all know restaurants that have never hired a PR machine and we go to all the time, or that, you know, that may stay packed. They've never had, you know, a PR person for a day.

• 26:47Speaker 01

  You know, I think, you know, I'm not a publicist. And, and that's a completely different skill, but what I do do is tell stories and want to tell people, not only give people great recommendations, but also give people great stories. And they, and I don't, and I want to be sure that I'm saying like, they really play a supportive role. And helping us cultivate cultivate those stories, but it doesn't, it's not by any stretch. I think, and you know, to speak for Bon Appetit, it's not a driver.

• 27:20Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah. When people ask me, they say like, well, this restaurant gets all the coverage from all these places, from different publications, from different awards. They're like, is, you know, that's gotta just be PR. I'm like, no, the restaurant is actually really good.

• 27:35Adrienne Cheatham?

  Like if you only read about a restaurant once, it it may not drive you there yet. If you read about it two, three times and it's getting crossed in all these other guides and and mentions, then yeah, you're, it's probably gonna get your butt in that seat.

• 27:48Joe Flamm?

  And I think it's a double edged sword of it sometimes too, right? I remember like when Kassama was opening, I was like, if there was a futures betting market where I could bet futures on this place to win every award ever. I was like, I would hammer it. I would hammer it and I would be the richest person on earth. Because, and it's not like, it's like, because the concept was brilliant. It's two incredibly talented chefs. It's an incredible story. It's so unique. It's so special. And it delivers from sunup to sundown every day. They kill it. So it's like, it makes sense. And I think though, the other side of it is like, there's, you know, chefs and restaurateurs, we get way too caught up in like, well, you have to be on that list.

• 28:29Joe Flamm?

  Or you have to be, you know, it's like, not all restaurants can be a world's 50 best restaurants, or can be a best new restaurant. And I think, you know, at the end of the day, the only truth is like, you know, you're a busy restaurant that your community likes and supports. And so you get to keep being a restaurant, or you don't. And if you get those lists, you get those accolades, hey, that's great. That's awesome. That's a, that's a great thing. And they're great that they exist because they drive people to our city, to our industry, to these things. So they have to be there. And I, I mean, I love reading them. I look forward to them every year.

• 28:58Speaker 01

  Ultimately, we want you to have the best kind of experiences. And this is a way to entertain ourselves and like you. So you aren't thinking about what always happens to restaurants where the focus is on the cost. And not the experience. And sometimes I think we put those things, a world's 50 best restaurant are like, oh, how is this world's 50 best restaurant? How is this different from like, you know, my taco shop down the street? Well, you know, your taco shop down the street is fabulous. It's wonderful. But these restaurants, this is like Roger versus Nadal. It's a tie break. This is Beyonce live and you're sitting on the stage. Now, these are really different kinds of experiences.

• 29:41Speaker 01

  And I think when we start to contextualize them that way, then it also helps with the story. We can tell, you know, chefs can start to talk about what kind of experience you are going to have at their restaurant.

• 29:57Adrienne Cheatham?

  Jamila, we didn't even really get into the fact that you are the freaking head of North America's 50 best. I mean, so you have these two positions with these two huge entities that really shape the conversation around dining of all different levels, high end, low end, and in between. But Jamila, like you're scouting all these restaurants all the time with both frames of reference in mind. So how are you looking at the restaurants when you go to visit them? And you're like, this is a 50 best. This is a BA. What are the criteria that you're looking at them with?

• 30:31Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, to Joe's point, they're, they're serving different functions. And they're different functions. They're different experiences. And I, I chair, um, just, I, I, I'm the academy chair for world's 50 best for the, for USA East. So that is Canada, all the way down to the Caribbean and the North America. I have the Northeast region, which is New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Washington, the mid Atlantic. So what are the restaurants that, again, that are kind of shaping the trends? And I think you're going to see that whether that is Bon Appetit or that is a restaurant that could end up on a, on a 50 best list. But there are different expressions because you're going to have things that are more important from a regional perspective.

• 31:16Speaker 01

  I always think about it, it's kind of like the Olympics. You have sort of best of, you know, your region, best in your nation, and then here's the best in the world. And like, it's almost like sending people up from the national championships, the world championships, to the Olympic Games. And, and there are different restaurants that function differently. It's like that are, this is a incredible place because I'm traveling to Spain, or Italy, or Thailand, and here are some really interesting restaurants, but they're the things that I want to travel to. These are the restaurants that are going to be setting the trends that you're going to see in those local markets. But you have to travel to see that.

• 31:57Speaker 01

  You have to see how people are eating all over the world to see if what's happened in the US is actually starting a trend. Um, I mean, think about what's happened with African diaspora restaurants. Tatiana kind of blowing everybody out of the water a few years ago. And, and yes, that happening in, in New York and in the US. It becoming a one to watch for 50 best. But also kind of shaping the Club Storat scene that we started to see all over the US. So we can put together a list that said, okay, these are the best of the Club Storats, or this is what you should expect at a Club Storat. Uh, but then also on the other side of that is,

• 32:42Speaker 01

  let's talk about the reshaping of fine dining that is happening. And what are the inspirations that people are having from the African diaspora? Whether that is Caribbean, West Africa. Um, and how does that, how does that influence starting to shape restaurant scenes in other parts of the US and other parts of the world? As we're scouting, you're thinking about how is that restaurant functioning in a community? And then how is that community growing? And what is that impact it has on culture and society? And then that's the story that Bon Appetit is best positioned to tell you.

• 33:23Speaker 01

  Here's how food shapes culture and society because we are seeing all of these things that are happening in Dubai, in, in Kagali, in Thailand, because it's also showing up in Miami, and Austin, and Montana. Then we can start to say, here's how these global trends are being shaped. And here's how it's going to show up on your plate and expect to be buying this kind of spice in your grocery store in two years.

• 33:51Adrienne Cheatham?

  What do you think about the trend of food critics kind of outing themselves? Like when you were at the Philadelphia Inquirer, were you completely anonymous or trying to be?

• 34:01Speaker 01

  Well, I was, I was the food editor at the Philadelphia Inquirer and Craig Laban was the food critic who was anonymous. And I'm not a fan of anonymity. I think that anonymity is, I mean, first of all, it's, it's a kind of a, it's performative. It's not, everybody knows any restaurateur. Every, any restaurateur worth their salt knows who the critics are, knows who all the influencers are. I know everybody in the restaurant industry not only knows my face, but they know that I'm allergic to peanuts.

• 34:38Speaker 01

  They know. And so why do we kind of pretend? And I'm also like a black woman who wears bright clothes. Like I don't own any black clothing, right? And so I'm going to stand out no matter what. It doesn't matter if I have ordered every dish on the menu. They know. So why are we performing?

• 34:56Joe Flamm?

  You're not flying under the radar. You know what I mean? Like.

• 34:59Speaker 01

  Yeah. And not only that, like the, the, the idea of, of anonymity is silly. I think in 2025 in the digital era. And for, and second, and I think thinking that there's going to be some sort of special treatment that the critics get that you aren't going to experience. It's just not possible, right? I mean, because the, the gardemage that, you know, the prep has already been done. And imagine like, oh my gosh, let's go, you know, switch out the chef and like, make sure that this is, you know, I'm going to cook this myself. And then slowing down the service when the critic is in a hurry. And it's just like, it just doesn't make sense. From my perspective, I'm not a food critic, but you know, I would like, I would say people know what I like and they know.

• 35:44Speaker 01

  I kind of, you know, people know when I'm coming into a restaurant. But I also kind of believe that like you would never go to an art show in a disguise. Right? You would never go to a concert. Okay, I'm gonna go to Coldplay concert and I'm gonna dress up as not myself.

• 36:01Adrienne Cheatham?

  As a music critic, yeah.

• 36:02Joe Flamm?

  Right.

• 36:03Speaker 01

  Right? It's, I mean, and again, you thinking about restaurants in the same space that you would use other kinds of of art. And I think, give me the show. Give me the opening night. Right? You go to the theater of Broadway show. It's opening night. Everybody's there. All the critics are there. They've seen the show. Right? They've seen it in previews and then you go to opening night, but it's still another thirty days or ninety days before you give a review.

• 36:29Joe Flamm?

  Right.

• 36:30Speaker 01

  I, I, I just, I don't think anonymity serves a purpose anymore. I, I don't know if it ever did. Like, from my perspective, I don't know if it ever did.

• 36:39Joe Flamm?

  The weird thing to me about it, too, is like, I'm very much a chef where it's like, I'm in the dining room a lot. You know, and I talk to everybody who comes in. It's a big deal. They come into my restaurant. They work hard. They spend money. They can spend it anywhere. They spend it with me. And I like meeting people. And then it's like, you have like a critic come in. It's like, so am I not supposed to talk to you? Because that's not what I do. That's not how I run my restaurant. But now I'm supposed to pretend like, I don't know who you are. And you don't know who I am, even though we're both here for the same fucking reason.

• 37:06Speaker 01

  Why are we playing this game?

• 37:08Joe Flamm?

  Like, could we stop with the cat and mouse and just be like, hey, you're here. This is what we're doing. This is cool. I'm here so you could ask me questions that you may have about the restaurant, your city that I built.

• 37:18Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah. And if you don't like something, sure, it's like, tell me that, too.

• 37:21Speaker 01

  Tell me. Yeah. And it's, I think journalism and restaurants are very similar. There are some days that some things work and some things don't. But I don't pretend. And, um, and I think it's really important that we give the restaurants and the hospitality professionals a lot of grace. This is why we go back. You know, sometimes, sometimes, you know, some things just don't, you know, it's, it's an off, it may be an off night, you know, sous chef called in, called in sick. But, you know, it's, it's like going to a Broadway show and there the understudy is there. Are you mad at the show? Right. Um, no, you you go back again. And I and and I think even that kind of experience is so rare.

• 38:06Speaker 01

  Because you all are professionals. You're really good at what you do. And and I think that sort of, okay, we're gonna pop in and like surprise. Um, surprise. I had, there was a chef, um, you know, gave me a bunch of grief because um, I really, really like their restaurant. And I just go there a lot. And sometimes, you know, I just go sit in the corner and by myself and and have a meal. And and one day she saw me leaving and she was like, oh, my God. And then sent me like a text message. It's just like, don't do that. Um, and I had to let her know that, hey, I'm not working.

• 38:48Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right. I'm just enjoying myself.

• 38:50Speaker 01

  I'm just enjoying because I I because I want to. I just want to have that experience. And and and the pressure of it being like review season or award season that it makes that it puts on the kitchen of like, oh, my gosh. And are they gonna like it? Do they like everything? Is everything is everything good? And and that and I think that that can be a challenge of um, of just rather than just doing what you do every day and really believing because ultimately it's all going to be what the chefs put out and how it's brought in that experience that

• 39:30Speaker 01

  you're gonna give that to everybody else in the restaurant anyway. The sort of mythical special treatment.

• 39:36Joe Flamm?

  Right. And if you can't give it to anybody, everybody else in the restaurant, then it doesn't matter.

• 39:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 39:42Joe Flamm?

  You know, I think any reasonable critic can look around the room and tell like, are other people having fun here? Are other people having a good experience? You know what I mean? It's like either like, you know, it's like, if you're like, oh, I'm the only one having a good time in the room and everybody else is loving this. Or like, I'm the only miserable asshole in the room and everyone else is loving this. Like, maybe I need to give it another shot.

• 40:04Speaker 01

  Give it another shot. Yeah.

• 40:06Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah, it's and it also takes so much of the. Pressure off of restaurant operations because you've got, you know, you used to have that room in a restaurant that all the waiters had to know who's the editor of the food section? Who's the critic? Who's the this person? Who's the staff writer? It's like they had to memorize 50 faces.

• 40:22Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 40:23Adrienne Cheatham?

  For national and local publications. So, you know, even if you weren't the critic at Philadelphia, they knew that you were the editor there.

• 40:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:31Adrienne Cheatham?

  So, you know, you still, they're still clocking for you anytime you walk in a restaurant.

• 40:36Speaker 01

  Quick story. One day Craig Laban and I went to dinner at a tumish lunch star and, and he

• 40:46Speaker 01

  made the reservation under a fake name, which I don't agree with because I, I just, I don't think I could ever like pay a $1,500 tab with a card that does not have my name on it. But, um, and I, and I walked in and we, you know, we, and we're having, we're having a meal and it, and it, and it was, it was a little bit uneven. This is like right after the post pandemic, this restaurant had been, we had reopened and, and this restaurant just was not staffed at the level that it needed to be. And about halfway through the meal, this, the diner, the server comes over and they're literally sweating.

• 41:26Speaker 01

  And there, and then, and then the chef came out and it was like this nervous interaction. It was like, I was like, oh my God, we're, and, and it was like not a review. It was like, you know, it was going to be a review meal, but it was the, and I just thought about how much easier it had been, would have been for them. If they, if we had said, hey, we're coming in, coming in for first visit and like sort of to take the pressure off. Because I felt, I don't feel like we should be trying to put everybody on the, like, why would we put them on the spot? The restaurant gets to decide the experience that you want to have. And I think we should get, experience it from that perspective.

• 42:09Adrienne Cheatham?

  So we're going to get into a little bit of turn and burn. So we're going to ask you some questions to get your first thought answers on these. You ready?

• 42:18Speaker 01

  I'll try to keep them tight.

• 42:21Adrienne Cheatham?

  Okay. Do you ever cook recipes from Bon Appetit?

• 42:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, I cook them all the time, especially the baking recipes because I think Shilpa and Jessie, with what they're doing with Bake Club is so exciting. And I really do think that they create some incredible recipes.

• 42:37Adrienne Cheatham?

  All right. So who's got next? What cuisine is poised to get their flowers? Like Caribbean, all right.

• 42:43Speaker 01

  Caribbean.

• 42:44Adrienne Cheatham?

  Heard it here first.

• 42:45Speaker 01

  Hands down.

• 42:46Joe Flamm?

  That's funny. We were talking about that yesterday. I mean, I was like, I was like, I feel like, you know, like, we were like, that's like happening right now.

• 42:54Speaker 01

  Caribbean is, you know, the moment started last year. And as I was saying before about sort of African diaspora, and then how does that manifest? But I think Bar Cabala, Paul Carmichael's restaurant in New York, I think is one of those changemaker restaurants where you really start to think about Caribbean as a cuisine with, you know, all different kinds of techniques that he's using. I think what's important for me is to see that there are dishes that are at that restaurant I haven't seen before. And, and so here's this-

• 43:28Joe Flamm?

  That's number one on my list of places I want to go.

• 43:29Speaker 01

  Yeah. New, new dishes, new ideas. Oh, I don't know what this ingredient is, or I've never heard of this sauce before. Okay, then there's a different expression. And it makes, made me want to go and revisit the Caribbean. Oh, wait a minute, I haven't been to the islands to know what this story is about this particular, these particular flavors. And then here's this really innovative expression of dishes. But it's not just Bar Cabala. There are, there's a Haitian restaurant called Kamui that is in Montreal that you're thinking about us. A lot of those kinds of dishes. Gregory Gourde, obviously with Maison Passerelle and Khan.

• 44:12Speaker 01

  But there are a lot of restaurants that are coming online, not only here, but also in the Caribbean with chefs using that influence and then making new dishes. And I think that's what is on the horizon and that you're going to see them everywhere, I think.

• 44:27Adrienne Cheatham?

  Now fork it or forget it. So this is you like it, you don't like it. Detroit pizza.

• 44:33Speaker 01

  Oh, fork it. I mean, there is no other better. There's no greater pizza, right? I mean, you know.

• 44:39Joe Flamm?

  What's your, what's your Detroit pizza spot?

• 44:41Speaker 01

  Okay, Buddy's if I, if I'm on the east side, Jets if I'm on the west side. Um, so, so it really depends on like what part of town you're on, but you know, old school, I am old school. You know, Detroit pizza is like the, the cheese, the crispy sides, eat it with a fork, the crunch. I mean, yeah, it's, it's, it's, yeah. Eat it with a fork.

• 45:03Joe Flamm?

  Detroit's, Detroit's still wildly underrated in my opinion.

• 45:06Speaker 01

  We put the world on wheels and give it a soundtrack. I love living, I love living in New York, but Detroit is always home.

• 45:12Adrienne Cheatham?

  Okay, last one, Jamila. What is your ride or die ingredient? You always have, longtime favorite, always in your pantry, city to city. Wherever you've lived, you always have this ingredient.

• 45:24Speaker 01

  Vanilla bean.

• 45:25Adrienne Cheatham?

  Ooh.

• 45:26Speaker 01

  Vanilla beans. I always keep a stash of vanilla beans. There's one in my purse right now here in the office. Just in case I need to slice that soldier open or something. I keep.

• 45:37Joe Flamm?

  Just right into that afternoon coffee, huh?

• 45:39Speaker 01

  You never know. I know, I always keep a stash of vanilla beans. I buy them in bulk, you know, because they're expensive. And, um, and the prices change with the market. Sometimes it can cost the price of.

• 45:50Joe Flamm?

  You better be careful telling people you're carrying vanilla beans on you. You know what I mean? That's like walking around with a Rolex in your purse. That's a dangerous statement to make in the public.

• 45:59Speaker 01

  I, I also give them away at the holidays. I give them away as gifts. Um, sometimes like, especially if I'm giving a cookbook. I'll wrap up, you know, 10 vanilla beans in, in a little container and give those away, but I always keep a stash of vanilla beans. It is. You know, it is, it is the greatest in ingredient. Um, you know, it is the most important flavor, the most popular flavor, but it really, um, um, I, I love it when making like a creme brulee or, um. Uh, like a souffle and like you get like that slight crunch from the vanilla beans. Or like, you know, you make ice cream and you get the vanilla beans and you see them pool all over the place. I love a vanilla bean. So I always got a stash.

• 46:40Adrienne Cheatham?

  Jamila Robinson, thank you so, so much for joining us today.

• 46:44Joe Flamm?

  Yeah, what a pleasure. Thank you for your time. You are one of the busiest, you know, people in the business. You're doing so much. Uh, it's just an absolute, uh, honor to have you on. Great talking to you.

• 46:55Speaker 01

  Thank you so much. It is an honor to be here. Thank you so much for having me on the show.

• 47:00Adrienne Cheatham?

  That's it for this week's episode of The Chef's Cut. Be sure to subscribe wherever you're listening, especially if you're watching us on YouTube where you can find full-length video of each episode. And be sure to follow us at The Chef's Cut Pod on IG. For Jo Flamm, I'm Adrienne Cheatham. This has been The Chef's Cut. Life beyond the past.