Moment 129: Life Changing Lessons From The World's Longest (85 Years) Study On Happiness: Dr Robert Waldinger

In this moment, the director of the Harvard Study of Adult Development, the longest study of humans ever, Dr. Robert Waldinger gives the answers to some of the most important questions in life. Most people don’t know what they want are very bad at knowing what will make them happy, for instance, fame, wealth and achievements have all been shown to not affect happiness. However, Dr. Waldinger reveals that relationships are the number one factor for keeping humans healthier and happier, this is because relationships make us feel that we are connected and that we belong in the world. Listen to the full episode here - https://g2ul0.app.link/vDsEggETsDb Watch the Episodes On Youtube - https://www.youtube.com/c/%20TheDiaryOfACEO/videos Robert: https://twitter.com/robertwaldinger?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwiHgd3rz82BAxVB_bsIHQ9bDwMQFnoECC8QAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.robertwaldinger.com%2F&usg=AOvVaw3XfUilfx06qbGqT8xK0r-V&opi=89978449 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:03Steven Bartlett?

  So this study, you became the director of it.

• 0:07Steven Bartlett?

  Let's start top, top level then. How did, this study sets out to answer some of the big questions in life. The most important things about what makes us happy, what keeps us healthy, socially healthy, physically healthy. You've got the longest study of, of humans that anyone thinks has ever been done. You've been studying them for decades upon decades. Looking at that research and being a first party to all of that, that information, how has it changed you?

• 0:32Speaker 01

  It's very much made me take care of my own relationships. So because the biggest, most surprising finding in the study was that it's our relationships that keep us healthier and happier. You know, I'm a Harvard professor. I could work nonstop until I drop dead. I mean, that's just the way academia works. And what I realized was particularly once my kids weren't there pulling me away to go take them somewhere or do something with them, that I could just work all the time. And so what I've started doing is to be much more intentional about calling my friends, about saying, let's go for a walk. Let's go out to dinner. Let's make sure we get together.

• 1:17Speaker 01

  I never would have done that before, particularly as a man. I think women are much better. My wife is much better at calling friends on the phone, at making sure they get together. I had to teach myself to do that. I had to make myself do it. I had to take my own medicine, if you will, based on what I was studying in my work life.

• 1:39Steven Bartlett?

  What do we, what do we get wrong about the, the subject matter of happiness? Like if, if you were to ask those participants, what they thought would cause happiness in their lives? Or you were to ask, I don't know, a millennial, what are the answers that we say? And how wrong are we? And are we good at knowing? Someone asked me this yesterday at an event. They put their hand up and they said, we're talking about remote working and this whole change disruption that's happened in the workplace. And they put their hand up, I think they were a CEO and they said, do my employees actually know what they want? And I, and it was a really curious question. I ended up answering, and this is maybe a little bit controversial, but I ended up answering that most of us don't know what we want in most facets of our life.

• 2:17Speaker 01

  Yes, and we're bad at knowing what's going to make us happy. I'll give you an example and it's in the book. There was a study in the city of Chicago where.

• 2:29Speaker 01

  They were studying commuters, people who were about to get on the train and take the train to work, like they did every day. And so they took a random sample of people in one group, and they were assigned to do what they always do on the train. It could have been listening to music or reading the news on their phone, whatever they did. The other group randomly was assigned to talk to a stranger on the train, which none of them had ever done. And they asked them beforehand, "How much do you think you're gonna like this assignment we've just given you?" And the people who were assigned to talk to strangers said, "I'm not gonna enjoy this." Afterwards, after they completed their assignments, the people who had talked to strangers

• 3:13Speaker 01

  were much happier than the people who had done their usual, staying on their phones or reading the newspaper. So it's an example of how we're not so good at knowing what's gonna make us happy. And particularly when it comes to connecting with each other, that there's something about these kind of small conversations that we can have with strangers or even with someone we barely know that turn out to be very energizing more of the time than not. But we're always afraid. We're afraid someone's gonna think we're strange if we strike up a conversation or we're gonna get stuck talking to someone who we don't like.

• 3:56Speaker 01

  But what we find is that the culture gives us these messages about what will make us happy that turn out not to be the truth. A lot of the messages are about consumerism. You know, we're told, "If you buy this car, you're gonna be happy." "If you serve this brand of pasta, you're gonna have blissful family dinners." You know, and even though we sort of know that this isn't the truth, the advertisements really do inculcate this sense that if we consume the right things, that we'll be happy. And what we know from our research and many other studies is that's just not so. And that these connections with each other

• 4:39Speaker 01

  actually do make us happy. I mean, for example, you and I are talking now, and your questions and your interest in my work is actually energizing for me. It's actually making me happier than when I walked in the door today.

• 4:54Steven Bartlett?

  Why?

• 4:56Speaker 01

  I think there's something about wanting to be seen. Like you're actually saying, I want to know you. I want to know what's going on with you. And that there's something about that that makes us feel like we belong, that makes us feel like we're connected. And so what we notice and what we talk about in the book is this idea that when we actually are curious about another person, it's giving them a gift. It's giving them a way to be seen, a way to tell about themselves that we all really yearn for at some level, or almost all of us do. And so it's something we can give to each other every day.

• 5:40Steven Bartlett?

  When you compare and contrast the two lists, list A, which says what we think we want, and B, what your study on happiness has shown that actually leads to happiness, however we define it, what are the things, just in order that we're most wrong about?

• 5:59Speaker 01

  Probably the three big ones. We're most wrong about fame.

• 6:02Steven Bartlett?

  Fame, yeah.

• 6:03Speaker 01

  And wealth.

• 6:04Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 6:04Speaker 01

  And badges of achievement. If I win this prize, right? If I get to be CEO, that kind of thing. And because the culture tells us all day long that these will make us happy, and because they're measurable. I think one of the things, you know, if you think about fame, I mean, it's likes. It's how many downloads of a podcast. It's how many people read a book, right? And it's measurable, it's quantifiable. Wealth, of course, is quantifiable. And achievement. But what we know is that those things don't do it. Now, meaningful work can make us happy, can be fulfilling. That's different from getting the prize, getting the badge.

• 6:51Speaker 01

  By contrast, you can't measure relationships. They're they're kind of messy and, you know, complicated and and and they're often full of ups and downs and conflicts. And so so you you can't quantify it. You can't hold on to it. It's always changing. And so by contrast, these these relationships that actually turn out to make us happy are not you can't get your hands around them as easily as you can. You can get your hands around these these these things you can kind of grab for these shiny brass objects you can go for.

• 7:30Steven Bartlett?

  So why do we why do we, you know, outside of the media influence, why are we do we have a sort of proclivity to strive for things like fame? Is there like an evolutionary basis for wanting to be famous or rich or high status? I guess.

• 7:48Speaker 01

  Can I get into Zen a little bit?

• 7:49Steven Bartlett?

  Of course you can, please.

• 7:50Speaker 01

  Okay. There's a writer named David Loy, L O Y, who writes about this, and and I think he's really on to something that in Zen philosophy, that if you really look for the self, if you sit down on a meditation cushion and you look and I look for Bob, like, who's Bob? I can't find him. I can't find a me anywhere. I can find a swirl of thoughts and ever changing sensations coming from my body. But I can't really find a fixed thing that I call Bob. And that and that what David Loy argues is that all of us at some level know this,

• 8:31Speaker 01

  that there isn't really a fixed self that's going to go on through time and that's going to last after I die. And that it's at some level scary to know that, right? And what David Loy argues is that many of us are grabbing for things like wealth and fame and dominating the earth and dominating each other in this kind of wish to make ourselves feel more real, more permanent, more fixed.

• 9:00Speaker 01

  Like we really exist. And I think he's right. I think at some, think about all the ways. You know, I think about all the ways I've been preoccupied with. You know, am I going to be remembered when I'm gone? Well, I'm probably not, you know, 50 years from now. Nobody's going to really remember who I was. And if I really let that sink into my bones, that's scary. And so I'd, I'd rather write a book with my name on it. I'd rather, you know, endow a building that'll keep my name on it for a while, until the building falls down. Do something that makes me last longer, that makes the, the Bob self feel more real.

• 9:43Speaker 01

  So that's the, that's the deep zen dive that I didn't mean to take you on. But, but that's, I think, for me, the most helpful explanation at why we all, myself included, get preoccupied. Why these, by these badges of achievement, if you will.

• 9:59Steven Bartlett?

  With that comes a ton of suffering, right?

• 10:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:02Steven Bartlett?

  The desire to be permanent.

• 10:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:04Steven Bartlett?

  And significant.

• 10:05Speaker 01

  And to compare ourselves, because with that comes comparison. And we know that when we compare ourselves to others more frequently during the day, we are less happy.

• 10:15Steven Bartlett?

  Even if it's a positive comparison, i.e. if we're doing a downward comparison.

• 10:19Speaker 01

  Even it's, even if it's a positive comparison. Because there's always the threat of falling short.

• 10:25Steven Bartlett?

  Hmm. You're deciding to play a game.

• 10:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:28Steven Bartlett?

  Which is, yeah, it's like a psychological decision to play a game, which sometimes you'll win, but sometimes you'll, you'll lose.

• 10:37Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 10:38Steven Bartlett?

  So it's better not to play the game of comparison altogether.

• 10:41Speaker 01

  Well, what I find is when I put the comparisons aside, which I can sometimes, I'm so much more at peace. You know, when someone says to me, do you know that so and so got this many views? Or so and so, you know, had this many likes on social media? I can feel a little part of myself get anxious or close off or, or start making that, that comparison that, that almost physically hurts a little bit. And when I let that go, if I can just sit and, and look at a tree for five minutes, I get a sense of equanimity that I can't get when I'm doing these small comparisons.

• 11:24Steven Bartlett?

  The brain engages in these comparisons quite naturally. You know, it's trying to make snap decisions so it doesn't have to expend too much energy about the value of things and what things mean. So it kind of compares one thing to another. I've read about the studies in restaurants where they add an expensive steak to the menu. And now because there's a really expensive one, people will assume that the low price steak is not good and they'll avoid that one. They'll go for the middle one.

• 11:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:51Steven Bartlett?

  Their decision change is based on the the frame in which they see the options or the choice. And it's the same with humans. We're trying to figure out the value of ourselves by snap comparisons. When you hear about these things that the brain is doing, these like comparisons, you go, why does the brain hate me?

• 12:07Speaker 01

  Exactly, exactly. The other thing is when I look at the animal world, I think, you know, think about all the ways that we get preoccupied with, do I look right? Or, you know, do, am I dressed right? Or have I achieved enough, right? And then I look at birds and I think, I bet they're not showing up worrying about those things. And what a, what a relief, what a, what a wonderful thing not to be worried about those things. And I do find that this practice of mine can get me there some of the time, not all the time, but some of the time.

• 12:38Steven Bartlett?

  I used to, you know, I used to wonder on that point of like, why, why does the brain hate me? I know the brain doesn't hate you. Like, I used to wonder with weight loss, for example, until I sat here with dietary experts, why, when I have some sugar, I then get sugar cravings.

• 12:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:54Steven Bartlett?

  And they explained to me that your brain is actually on your side. It's trying to help you to survive. Once upon a time when we didn't have fridges and supermarkets and Uber Eats and whatever else, coming across some sugar was, would advance your chances of survival. It would give you energy, et cetera. And even with the comparison, it's a tool that helps me make quick decisions. My brain doesn't hate, hate me. But the world we live in. Was not designed for my brain.

• 13:19Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 13:19Steven Bartlett?

  I wasn't supposed to be able to look at a billion people on a glass screen. And so the suffering is really a byproduct of a changing world, not a, not a brain that hates you. And I see that throughout your work is the world has changed to make us unhappy in several ways.

• 13:32Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 13:33Steven Bartlett?

  What do we do about that? We can't leave the world.

• 13:36Speaker 01

  No, we can't leave the world and, and the world is always going to keep changing. And so, for example, if we, sometimes we can, we can demonize screens and we can demonize the digital revolution. That's not going away, you know? And so really it's about being as adaptable as we can. But I think for me, the question is, how can we be as intentional as possible? That, that our brains evolved, as you're saying, they don't hate us, but they evolved in certain ways. And so they need correctives.

• 14:10Speaker 01

  Similarly, the digital world has evolved in certain ways. And so the digital software is designed, digital media is designed to grab our attention and hold it.

• 14:22Steven Bartlett?

  To exploit that brain.

• 14:23Speaker 01

  To exploit that brain. So then how can we be intentional enough to turn away from that software when we need to, right? When we need to turn toward each other, when we need to have real time contact with each other? That's so nourishing emotionally and psychologically. How can we keep from going down the rabbit hole? That social media has evolved to keep us hooked on, not because social media is evil, just because that's how they've developed in order for people to make a living.

• 14:58Steven Bartlett?

  It is quite exhausting, I think, sometimes. I think, because you're right, industry and business and even the high street, if you walk down the high street, you know, outside, everything is designed to exploit the brain. You like the shops are selling sugar and carbs and, or you can go to the gambling shop and that will exploit your brain and, you know, it's dopamine response to flashing lights and pulling that lever on the.

• 15:23Steven Bartlett?

  It's difficult.

• 15:24Speaker 01

  It is difficult, and that's where suffering comes in. You know, one of the things I see as a psychiatrist, but we all see this, is that people often want to change their state. They just want to change how they feel. There's this great cartoon I like. There's this meditator sitting on a cushion, and there's a thought bubble over his head. And what he's thinking is, I really do want to be in the moment, just not this moment. And if you think about all the ways in which we want to change our state, by gambling, the excitement of gambling, or the sugar high we get when I get some delicious ice cream, or, you know, that it's a way of changing

• 16:05Speaker 01

  that kind of sense of malaise that comes over us moment to moment. And I think one of the things we can do instead is simply be present for that malaise and then watch it pass, which it does eventually, right? So basically, by and large, we're trying to get rid of some of the less pleasant experiences of our momentary life. But they'll pass all by themselves if you just pay attention.