3 Strategies To Win ANY Negotiation In Business, Life, & Relationships w/ Chris Voss EP 1300

Chris Voss is known as “The Master Negotiator”, a title earned throughout his time serving as the lead Crisis Negotiator for the New York City Division of the FBI, and then as the lead international kidnapping negotiator for the FBI. In 2008, Chris founded The Black Swan Group, which specializes in teaching you how to never leave money on the table by using hostage negotiation techniques. In May 2016, he published the national best-seller “Never Split The Difference: Negotiation As If Your Life Depended On It” to teach people everywhere how to apply these life-changing hostage negotiation techniques in their daily lives. In this episode, you will learn:How to use NO as a superpower to reveal informationThe importance of collaboration in every negotiationWhat you can do to protect yourself in negotiationsHow everyday negotiations can better prepare you for the important onesThe best ways to approach getting a discountFor more, go to: lewishowes.com/1300Listen to Chris Voss' previous episodes:TOP SECRET Psychological Strategies - https://link.chtbl.com/1203-podMaster the Art of Negotiation - https://link.chtbl.com/902-podNegotiating in Business & Life - https://link.chtbl.com/379-pod Get more from Lewis! Get my New York Times Bestselling book, Make Money Easy! Get The Greatness Mindset audiobook on SpotifyText Lewis AIYouTubeInstagramWebsiteTiktokFacebookX

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Lewis Howes?

  What would you say is the most important word to use in any negotiation?

• 0:06Chris Voss?

  Not used, but come to grips with, no. The word no. When you say no.

• 0:13Lewis Howes?

  Welcome to the School of Greatness. My name is Lewis Howes, a former pro athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur. And each week, we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness. Thanks for spending some time with me today. Now let the class begin.

• 0:38Lewis Howes?

  Where do you think the confidence comes from in negotiation? How can we gain more confidence when we're mastering some of the strategies from your book and from your workshops and trainings that you guys do? How does someone develop that confidence?

• 0:52Chris Voss?

  I'd say we break that into two parts. The type of confidence and developing the confidence. Because there's a lot of empty, vacuous confidence out there. Like I am like-

• 1:03Lewis Howes?

  False confidence.

• 1:04Chris Voss?

  The false confidence. And I, you know, this one guy we talked to about a possible investment in a company. You know, I pointed out, you know, how I thought their numbers were flawed. And then the guy said, well, I'm confident I can make these numbers anyway. And I'm like, all right, so we're walking away from you right now. Because you just told me you have confidence in the things that I just pointed out to you that were flawed, instead of actually listening to what I said. Now, the confidence that you spoke about a moment ago, the way you lived it and what you said, it wasn't confidence, it was confidence in connecting. And that's the critical point.

• 1:40Lewis Howes?

  With people.

• 1:41Chris Voss?

  With people. Connecting with somebody and the desire to connect with them, which is also the whole point of the negotiation. The Black Swan Method is about succeeding with people, not at their, not at their expense. You know, getting better at negotiation, not necessarily at the expense of other people. And point of fact, making the other person's position better also.

• 2:04Lewis Howes?

  Not hurting them.

• 2:05Chris Voss?

  Not hurting.

• 2:06Lewis Howes?

  But them succeeding and you succeeding.

• 2:08Chris Voss?

  Right, because you wanna repeat business.

• 2:10Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 2:11Chris Voss?

  And if you hurt them, they're not gonna repeat.

• 2:12Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 2:13Chris Voss?

  So connecting with people, negotiating with people. That's your confidence is a desire for that and a genuine sincerity and enthusiasm for it.

• 2:22Lewis Howes?

  How does someone do that when they know what they want is not what the other person wants?

• 2:28Chris Voss?

  Well, and that's only if it's short term.

• 2:30Lewis Howes?

  Gotcha.

• 2:31Chris Voss?

  And then, then if it really gets at the risk of that, you make what you want the path to what they want. Like, you know, I love seeing the black swan method showing up in the real world. So of course, somebody sends me a clip from Shark Tank.

• 2:45Lewis Howes?

  Uh huh.

• 2:46Chris Voss?

  And Kevin O'Leary got black swanned.

• 2:49Lewis Howes?

  Okay, tell me.

• 2:50Chris Voss?

  So one of our, one of our go-to lines when somebody's giving you an unacceptable offer or something you can't deal with or something very difficult for you. I used to say to, you know, to kidnappers, how we supposed to pay if we don't know the hostage is alive?

• 3:06Lewis Howes?

  Mm-hmm.

• 3:07Chris Voss?

  They wanna get paid, I gotta know that your hostage is alive. How we supposed to pay you if we don't know you're gonna let him go? They wanna get paid, I wanna get the hostage out. I'm making my goals as sequence. So how am I supposed to do that as some form of how? Is a great leveling the playing field question when someone's coming at you hard.

• 3:27Lewis Howes?

  Hmm, so what happened with Kevin?

• 3:29Chris Voss?

  Kevin O'Leary did classic, alright, so this is my offer, take it or leave it, no discussion. Yes or no, you gotta answer me right away. This is what I want, can't talk to anybody else. And the guy looks at him and says, how am I supposed to do that? And then he says, how am I supposed to agree to those terms and pay you back your money? Now, O'Leary, initially, this started with O'Leary basically saying like, yes or no?

• 3:55Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 3:55Chris Voss?

  Or get out of my face.

• 3:56Lewis Howes?

  Mm-hmm, you got five seconds, make a decision, I'm out.

• 3:59Chris Voss?

  Or I'm out. Instead, they hit him with a couple of how questions and then there's a sequencing. O'Leary wants his money back.

• 4:05Lewis Howes?

  Uh huh.

• 4:06Chris Voss?

  So how am I supposed to do that and protect your investment? And so suddenly now, all of a sudden, now he's not angry. But now he's not, he's back on his heels.

• 4:14Lewis Howes?

  He's trying to think.

• 4:15Chris Voss?

  He's seeing thinking. And at that point in time, since they've created so much space in a negotiation, now Barbara Corcoran jumps in.

• 4:24Lewis Howes?

  Right, now there's some time.

• 4:25Chris Voss?

  That's some people are listening.

• 4:26Lewis Howes?

  Ten second window, there's a, yeah.

• 4:28Chris Voss?

  And a better deal is opening.

• 4:29Lewis Howes?

  Uh huh.

• 4:30Chris Voss?

  And Kevin looks at her and says, hey, are you in, are you out? You know, I thought you were out. And so then, but now he's engaged in a full-on negotiation. It's back and forth exchange and these guys are still hitting him with, like, how are we supposed to protect your investment and give you those kind of terms? And then finally, they get a great deal teased out that O'Leary is still not ready to jump on. And Barbara says, you know what, I'll take that deal. And she jumps in and she gets it.

• 4:55Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 4:55Chris Voss?

  So great negotiations about succeeding with people and creating the opportunity for good things to happen. Because until they did that, Barbara Corcoran was out. But they created some space, they asked some legitimate questions, and suddenly Barbara says, there's a great deal in front of me, I'm gonna jump back in.

• 5:13Lewis Howes?

  Right. What would you say is the most important word to use in any negotiation?

• 5:21Chris Voss?

  Wow.

• 5:23Chris Voss?

  Not use, but come to grips with, no. The word no.

• 5:30Chris Voss?

  No is a great word to hear.

• 5:33Lewis Howes?

  If you're trying to make the negotiation?

• 5:35Chris Voss?

  When I'm trying to make the negotiation. Because empathy is about what it is for the other side, not what it is for you. It's not about you. So when you say no, you feel safe.

• 5:49Lewis Howes?

  I'm protecting myself, I'm guarding my

• 5:51Chris Voss?

  Right.

• 5:52Lewis Howes?

  deal or whatever the side of that I have. I'm not giving in to something I don't want.

• 5:57Chris Voss?

  Right. And as soon as you do that, you're more willing to explore options.

• 6:02Lewis Howes?

  Okay, no for this, but maybe what about this, this, or this?

• 6:05Chris Voss?

  Right, right. Or I may say, look, does this, does this look like a bad idea? And you might say, no, it doesn't look like a bad idea, but I need these things. Which you, having felt safe, will now tell me honestly, because you don't feel obligated. If I'd have said, does this look like a good deal to you? You might say, yes, it looks like a good deal, but, the erasing word, I need these things. But you're afraid if you said, had said yes in the first place, you're now on the hook. So you're not gonna be as honest with me about those things. So coming to grips with what yes and no really means is one of the major first turning points in anybody's negotiation journey as a great negotiator.

• 6:47Lewis Howes?

  Say that one more time?

• 6:48Chris Voss?

  Coming to grips with what yes and no really mean is the first major turning point in anybody's negotiation journey. Because you think yes is success, and it's not. And you think no is failure, and it's not.

• 7:06Lewis Howes?

  Why is yes not a success?

• 7:08Chris Voss?

  Yes, at best is aspiration only. You know, the phrase, "Hope is not a strategy." Yes is hope alone. Hope is inadequate alone. And at best, it's an aspiration. Most commonly, it's counterfeit.

• 7:24Lewis Howes?

  It's fake.

• 7:25Chris Voss?

  It's a fake yes.

• 7:26Lewis Howes?

  So if someone says, "Hey, I want to do this deal with you." And you say, "Yeah, I'm open to that," or "Yeah, that works for me." You're saying it's not 100% until the deal terms are laid out over paper and people are going back and forth, or what do you mean?

• 7:39Chris Voss?

  Well, about 80% of the time, I want to know what your deal terms are so I can shop them.

• 7:46Chris Voss?

  And if I've said yes, you're going to lay those terms out to me. Now, I'm free to shop them and start playing you off somebody else.

• 7:55Lewis Howes?

  Interesting.

• 7:56Chris Voss?

  And that is such a problem in the business world, recognize. And a lot of salespeople are now taught to say, "Are we the vendor of choice?" Well, you're going for yes there. Now, if you're being played, nobody's ever, if they're playing you, they're not going to tell you the truth.

• 8:13Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, yeah, they say, "Yeah."

• 8:14Chris Voss?

  They're not going to say, "Well, thank God you asked, because as a matter of fact, you're not. We're just pumping you for information."

• 8:19Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 8:19Chris Voss?

  We want free consulting.

• 8:21Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 8:21Chris Voss?

  Like, nobody's ever going to say that. If they were already lying to you, they're going to lie to you about that question, too. So this whole, the seduction of yes, because we love to hear it. Like, yes, the heavens part, the angels sing, the sun shines. And that is such a seduction that people exploit us regularly by telling us yes.

• 8:44Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, that's interesting. So when you hear a no, or when someone hears a no, what is the first thing they should think in a negotiation?

• 8:52Chris Voss?

  Well, it depends upon how the no came up. Like, you know, in never split the difference, we point out no could mean not yet.

• 9:02Chris Voss?

  Or no is no to these circumstances, which doesn't eliminate other circumstances.

• 9:10Chris Voss?

  Like, no could be, I need time to think. Like, no is almost never rejection. If it's come up unexpectedly, it's really, it's a signal that there's another path. Versus, ah, I gotta quit and go home. No is failure. I'm horrified with no. And that ain't, that ain't the case. So, we intentionally try to get it all the time. Like, if, getting someone to say no as a result of a calibrated question is so powerful.

• 9:44Lewis Howes?

  You intentionally try to get people to say no?

• 9:46Chris Voss?

  Intentionally try to get people to say no, that that may be the only thing that some people learn. Because I, I get emails on LinkedIn all the time. Like, hey, I, I use the phrase, have you given up on this project?

• 9:58Chris Voss?

  And I, my close rate is so exceeding everybody else that I, on my company, that I should come work for you. And teach this. And my thought is like, I'm, I'm glad you're making a lot more money right now, but you're just scratching surface. And you think, because you're comparing yourself to your peers who are in the middle of the bell curve, that if you just moved up the bell curve one notch, you now see all these people way behind you. You don't have any idea how much more upside you have.

• 10:30Lewis Howes?

  Right. Wow. What is the, when you hear a no, what do you think next? In a, in a, in a negotiation?

• 10:39Chris Voss?

  Well, I always hear those that I wanna hear.

• 10:41Lewis Howes?

  You hear the, you set it up?

• 10:43Chris Voss?

  Yeah.

• 10:43Lewis Howes?

  So is it, is it asking for something so extreme first?

• 10:47Chris Voss?

  Well, for example, um, there's a lot of stuff, let's say, about the particular deal that I know you don't know.

• 10:54Lewis Howes?

  Okay.

• 10:55Chris Voss?

  I mean, Ronald Reagan says, if you're explaining, you're losing. But I gotta give you some information at some point in time. Which evident is explanation. So, I'll say something like, all right, here's what I think you're up against.

• 11:09Chris Voss?

  Here's what I think the challenges are that you face. Are you against me sharing some ideas with you?

• 11:15Lewis Howes?

  No.

• 11:16Chris Voss?

  Right. Now, I've just teed up, you've just, you've got no problem with that. Now, I can't, if I got fifteen things I gotta share with you, I probably only get away with three. Because it's, each one is a lot, is good information, you gotta absorb it, I gotta let you think about it. We gotta go in small doses. But I will always, we are CDA, call to action, call to next step. However we close out, we always close out with a no. You know, me, the Black Swan Team, everybody that we coach, always close out. Are you against doing this? Are you against me sharing some ideas? Does this look stupid to you? Is this a ridiculous idea? Like, you can turn any one of your yes questions into a no question, which is ten times more valuable.

• 12:00Lewis Howes?

  Really? Because I've heard in the past from people that says, you know, you wanna get people saying yes, yes, yes, leading into the close, to a sale, to whatever, right? It's like getting them saying yes.

• 12:13Chris Voss?

  Right.

• 12:14Lewis Howes?

  But I'm hearing you say, get them to say no.

• 12:16Chris Voss?

  Right.

• 12:17Lewis Howes?

  Why is no more powerful than yes?

• 12:19Chris Voss?

  I think that, that, that, what you're referring to is called the yes momentum. And I think that has been so overused. And not only overused, but it's also been, everybody's been, they've been flimflam, they've been bamboozled. You know, they've been conned by that two or three times.

• 12:37Chris Voss?

  They're yes battered. And then your problem is...

• 12:42Lewis Howes?

  They feel like it's a trick or something, or some strab.

• 12:44Chris Voss?

  You're not a trickster, but you're engaging in the same methodology that the trickster used.

• 12:50Lewis Howes?

  Interesting.

• 12:51Chris Voss?

  You know, the African phrase, when you're bitten by a snake, you're afraid of ropes.

• 12:57Chris Voss?

  There are a lot of really legitimate people that are not trying to flimflamp somebody, but the flimflamp artists use that on them. You know, the, the timeshare industry has a very bad reputation. And some of the timeshares are clearly very valuable, because I know people that have them and love them. Simultaneously, there are a lot of people out there that are hustling, are conning people, and there's a whole industry that we've coached some of these people in getting people out of timeshares. Because they got them on the yes momentum. Now they got a timeshare that's gonna bankrupt them. Now, they don't remember exactly how that happened. But it was probably this yes momentum. So they weren't conscious of it, but as soon as they hear it again,

• 13:41Chris Voss?

  even from a close trusted friend, they got burned and they get an instinctively negative reaction to the yes momentum.

• 13:49Lewis Howes?

  Interesting. So what's the no? Is it no momentum? What's the, what's like, what is this process of getting the no?

• 13:57Chris Voss?

  Well, you know, you're getting a no and you're getting, you're getting information. You know, no typically triggers um implementation, next steps.

• 14:06Lewis Howes?

  Got it. But a no is really a yes. It sounds like, would you be against me sharing some interesting ideas for you? No, I'm not against it.

• 14:15Chris Voss?

  Exactly.

• 14:16Lewis Howes?

  Okay, cool. Here's the next step.

• 14:17Chris Voss?

  And probably if I'd have said, are you against me sharing some interesting ideas for you? Your more likely answer is, no, I'm not against it, but I only got 15 minutes.

• 14:25Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 14:26Chris Voss?

  Awesome. If I stick to the 15 minutes or less, I got your undivided attention. If I go over 15, you're gonna start to get anxious.

• 14:35Lewis Howes?

  Mm-hmm.

• 14:35Chris Voss?

  Cause you're worried about your clock.

• 14:37Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 14:38Chris Voss?

  And you know, that's a secondary thing. Like, um, if we set up an appointment, it's a ridiculous idea for me to take up 13 minutes of your time.

• 14:47Lewis Howes?

  Right. Not, not 10, not 5, but something in between.

• 14:50Chris Voss?

  Right. Now, I know I want 9 minutes. I got it, I got it timed out. You know, I, I call this BDA lines. They're always showing up late.

• 14:59Lewis Howes?

  Uh-huh.

• 15:01Chris Voss?

  They're not getting killed for that anymore. Are they more efficient? No, they just changed the time. They said they were gonna show up.

• 15:06Lewis Howes?

  Mm-huh.

• 15:07Chris Voss?

  You know, you, you, I'm sitting on a tarmac in LAX. Plane can't get, can't get to the gate. We're there 20 minutes early. The airline is, hey, we're here 20 minutes early. We promised an on-time arrival. We're here 20 minutes early. They won't let us get to the gate. And you're sitting there thinking like, this airport is so stupid. This plane is big. They saw it coming. They got radar.

• 15:27Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 15:28Chris Voss?

  We're not a surprise.

• 15:29Lewis Howes?

  Right, right.

• 15:30Chris Voss?

  Well, point of fact, the, the airport said, you guys showed, said you were showing up at 3. We ain't opening up this gate till 3. Now, you're sitting there on the airplane. You're not mad at the airline. You're mad at the airport. But in fact, the airline knew how long they were gonna be early.

• 15:43Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 15:45Chris Voss?

  But who gave you back time in your life?

• 15:47Lewis Howes?

  Mm-hmm.

• 15:48Chris Voss?

  I call you on the phone. I say, Louis, I need, I need 13 minutes.

• 15:52Lewis Howes?

  Uh-huh.

• 15:53Chris Voss?

  You give me 15, cause you ain't got 13 on your calendar. I get done at nine. And I'm like, okay. And you're sitting there like, holy cow. You just gave me back time in my day. Everybody else is taking it away. Now you love me. Next time I call, you're picking that phone right up.

• 16:10Lewis Howes?

  He's not gonna waste my time.

• 16:12Chris Voss?

  Exactly.

• 16:14Lewis Howes?

  So I like these questions to get. Would you be against me doing this? Are you? What's another way you could say a no question?

• 16:22Chris Voss?

  It's usually like, is it a ridiculous idea? Are you against? Our phone calls start with, is now a bad time to talk? Instead of, have you got a few minutes?

• 16:32Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 16:33Chris Voss?

  Because, you know, we're, people feel safe when they say no.

• 16:36Lewis Howes?

  They feel safe. Why is that?

• 16:39Chris Voss?

  Yeah, that's, you know, I get, probably because we get flim flammed over yes. And we've been flim flammed so many times that no gives an automatic feeling of protection. You know, and I talk about this, because I told you I want to talk about how you interviewed some of your other interviews. Andrew Huberman.

• 16:59Lewis Howes?

  Yes, he's great.

• 17:01Chris Voss?

  Like, I've become acquainted with Andrew. Fascinating dude. Like, his first interview of him, I heard on With You. And I'm like, this is a great interview. I gotta listen to everything this guy says. Fascinating. And so then I catch him on another podcast. And I'm, I'm falling asleep. I'm like, oh, Jesus. Andrew was awesome when he was on Lewis. Now, I can't, I, it's a cure for insomnia. What's going on? And I actually went back and I compared the interviewing styles.

• 17:33Lewis Howes?

  Really? Interesting.

• 17:35Chris Voss?

  And there's a very difficult skill in the Black Swan Method also. And you were really good at. You were really good at several. But you paraphrase really well. And paraphrasing is, is, uh, sounds simple, dictionary definition. But it keeps the conversation going in more digestible bites. And I went back and I listened to your interview of Huberman several times before I realized, when you interviewed.

• 18:09Chris Voss?

  You were genuinely connecting and interested in him.

• 18:12Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 18:12Chris Voss?

  And you paraphrase frequently.

• 18:15Lewis Howes?

  Cause it's very complex ideas. I'm like, okay, well, let me simplify this. So I can understand and other people can understand.

• 18:20Chris Voss?

  That's exactly right.

• 18:21Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 18:22Chris Voss?

  And it also helps you stay focused.

• 18:24Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 18:25Chris Voss?

  You're a much better listener if you're focused on doing that. Now, the other dude that's interviewing Andrew. He's trying to show Andrew how smart he is.

• 18:32Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 18:33Chris Voss?

  So is, you know, he wanted to use all the scientific vernacular. Which Andrew likes to speak in very plain terms. And he wanted to show how smart he was.

• 18:44Lewis Howes?

  Mm hmm.

• 18:45Chris Voss?

  And then consequently, I think Andrew was having trouble keeping up with the questions. Cause they were so complicated.

• 18:51Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 18:51Chris Voss?

  The interviewer was trying to show.

• 18:53Lewis Howes?

  Show off.

• 18:54Chris Voss?

  Yeah. For the audience, I'm as smart as Andrew Huberman.

• 18:59Chris Voss?

  You don't bother with that at all.

• 19:00Lewis Howes?

  Mm hmm.

• 19:01Chris Voss?

  And you, you were genuinely interested and you're very conscious of your audience. So, well, your audience is sort of losing track and falling asleep like it's another guy.

• 19:09Lewis Howes?

  Right, right. If I'm falling asleep, then I need to, you know, reset the interview. I need to paraphrase it so I can stay focused and present too. Something I learned early on. Thanks for the compliment. I appreciate it. And I think it stemmed from an insecurity and a lack of confidence. Early in my twenties, once I was kind of getting into the.

• 19:29Chris Voss?

  So you're saying you're flawed human being?

• 19:30Lewis Howes?

  Very flawed human being, yes. After I got done playing arena football and lost my identity. I was like, what am I gonna do with the rest of my life? Like, this was my whole goal, was play professional football. Now I got injured. I can't play anymore. What do I do? Do I really have skills? Am I talented? Is anyone gonna hire me? I didn't know.

• 19:50Chris Voss?

  Right.

• 19:51Lewis Howes?

  And I started going to these networking events in Columbus, Ohio, to try to meet people. Kind of these business networking events. And I, I remember I was like, wow, everyone's, you know, five, 10, 20 years older than me. They're all wearing suits. You know, I have one sport jacket and a t-shirt, right?

• 20:09Chris Voss?

  Everything about this environment is designed to make you feel inadequate.

• 20:12Lewis Howes?

  Exactly. Everything. And, and I didn't have a job and all these different things. And I was like, okay, what value can I bring to this networking event? Right? I'm not as smart or talented or as successful as these professionals. I remember being very intimidated and I said, you know what? I'm just gonna go here and have fun and ask interesting questions and listen. And I'm not gonna try to act like-

• 20:32Chris Voss?

  Actually listen.

• 20:33Lewis Howes?

  I'm just gonna listen to whoever's in front of me. I'm not gonna look around and see who else is here, who's more powerful, who's more interesting, uh, who's coming in the door. I'm just gonna stare into someone's eyes, not in a creepy way, but I'm gonna connect-

• 20:45Chris Voss?

  Yeah, yeah, connect.

• 20:46Lewis Howes?

  And really ask interesting, genuine questions and shut my mouth. And I started doing this, this first night, and people, and I did it with like a joyful energy, right? Like a childlike curiosity. I was just like really curious, I was like, wow. And I would, and I would do a follow-up question, oh, tell me more about that. Tell me more, that's interesting. How did this happen with this? And at the end of the night, people came up to me like, you gotta meet Louis. He's such an interesting guy. He's so cool, he's so, he's so interesting. But they didn't know anything about me. I never shared anything about me. I was so curious about them. And I realized right then, I was like, oh, to be interesting, you have to be interested in other people.

• 21:25Chris Voss?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 21:26Lewis Howes?

  And you can, you can build incredible relationships by showing how much you care, how interested you are in people and make it about them as opposed to making it about you.

• 21:34Chris Voss?

  Yeah.

• 21:34Lewis Howes?

  And that was essentially what I started doing. I said, okay, I'm just gonna use this insecurity of not feeling like I'm smart enough. Lean into it, use the things I am good at, which is curiosity, joy, I'm passionate, I'm playful, you know, I'll joke with people and just try to make people feel connected and feel like their story is really inspiring, which it is to me. And that is kind of what I did with the podcast. It's just like, okay, you're way smarter than me, right? You've got these skills, this experience that I don't have. Let me be fascinated. Now, I've interrupted you and I'm talking right now, but in general, it's like, well, tell me more. That's interesting. Well, how do I, how can I use this in my life, you know?

• 22:13Chris Voss?

  Yeah, and you threw out inadvertently like a couple of different like superpowers. Um, curiosity.

• 22:19Lewis Howes?

  Uh huh.

• 22:21Chris Voss?

  Like, uh, you know, we got a block of instruction we teach called caviar, the scene caviar is curiosity. It's about getting yourself in the right headspace. And Nassim Nicholas Taleb wrote a book, Anti-Fragile. He says curiosity is an anti-fragile characteristic. And curiosity is a highly positive frame of mind.

• 22:40Chris Voss?

  I cite this guy's TED Talk so many times. The Happiness Advantage, Shawn Acker.

• 22:45Lewis Howes?

  Yep.

• 22:46Chris Voss?

  He says you're 31% smarter and a positive frame of mind. Curiosity is highly positive. There's all, every, everybody, all these different places talk about curiosity as an avenue to success for a variety of reasons. You pick up more, you're interested, you pay attention. The other person feels very connected with.

• 23:02Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 23:03Chris Voss?

  When you're genuinely curious. Playful. Another highly positive frame of mind. Kotler talks about flow. Steven Kotler says flow is highly positive, even playful. Pre-adolescents walk around essentially in borderline flow all the time. They're playful.

• 23:23Lewis Howes?

  Jumping around, trying, you know, climbing on people, you're just singing, dancing, you're just playing.

• 23:29Chris Voss?

  Yeah. Yeah, and so you take that attitude into a business environment and suddenly everybody else, everybody there is going like, hey, this kid over here with this, with this old sport coat and the tennis shoes.

• 23:41Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 23:41Chris Voss?

  Is the most interesting character here.

• 23:43Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 23:43Chris Voss?

  Come over and meet this guy.

• 23:45Lewis Howes?

  Uh huh.

• 23:46Chris Voss?

  Anybody can do that.

• 23:47Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 23:48Chris Voss?

  If they, uh, yeah, if they go like, alright, so I'm an idiot and I don't have any credentials and I don't know anything and I'm unemployable because I have no skills. Let me go out and see what happens. I mean, how are you gonna go down from there?

• 24:00Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, you can't.

• 24:01Chris Voss?

  How are you gonna embarrass yourself? You're gonna be like, alright, so I am a goofball. Let me go in here and I'll be a goofball and I'll be happy.

• 24:08Lewis Howes?

  And, and figure a way to bring value in your unique way. I'm curious, what is the most frequent question word that you use? Who, what, when, where, why?

• 24:18Chris Voss?

  Ah, alright. Um, alright, so we only use questions to create, calibrate thinking in the other person's brain.

• 24:27Chris Voss?

  To start with, like, I'm not gonna ask you a question and get information. I'm gonna ask you a question to put a thought in your head. For example, when I'm working on a free upgrade to a suite in a hotel. Which I work on every time, I don't get every time.

• 24:47Lewis Howes?

  What's your success rate? What's your success rate?

• 24:49Chris Voss?

  Success rate is probably in excess of ninety percent.

• 24:53Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 24:54Chris Voss?

  Which is also gonna be, it's gonna be impacted by inventory.

• 24:59Lewis Howes?

  Right, if there's no inventory, and there's really no inventory, it's.

• 25:02Chris Voss?

  They can't give you a suite they don't have.

• 25:04Lewis Howes?

  But maybe they can give you something else.

• 25:06Chris Voss?

  Or, you know, they're gonna look at their inventory. The first thing, do they have any suites? The second, how many nights in a row do I want a suite? Like, if I'm rolling in there, and I'm almost always late because I'm traveling.

• 25:17Lewis Howes?

  Sure.

• 25:18Chris Voss?

  If they only got one suite, I'm staying one night, and it's after six. They could give me that one suite, they can use up their inventory, because I'm out in the morning. And at six o'clock at night, they're, they're willing to gamble that nobody's coming in and taking it. If I'm there for three nights, I'm not getting that suite. If that's the only one they have, because they gotta leave it open. So, but, I gotta ask in a way that doesn't limit me to the suite.

• 25:46Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 25:46Chris Voss?

  Because I want them, I want them to feel good about the interaction, so throw other stuff on the table. Like, I'm in a, I'm in a hotel in, in Dallas, probably about a year ago. I didn't think about it till I walked in the door.

• 26:02Chris Voss?

  Parking lot's full of Range Rovers.

• 26:05Chris Voss?

  I walk inside, there are no shortage of women that are dressed to the nines. Almost all of them are company. But I mean, dressed to impress. I get up to the counter, and I do the suite thing, and the guy's like, yeah, we got a wedding party here.

• 26:23Chris Voss?

  Range Rovers, expensive. Expensive outfits. Are they out of suites? More than likely.

• 26:31Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 26:32Chris Voss?

  So, I do the pitch, and he's like, man, you know, we got a wedding party here, they're taking all the suites. So I ask him in the way with the question. Is it a ridiculous idea for you to make it up to me at the bar? Now, think about the absurdity of that question.

• 26:45Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 26:45Chris Voss?

  Like, I'm asking, I'm asking for something for free, that I never should have had in the first place. And if you don't give it to me, now you gotta make it up to me?

• 26:55Lewis Howes?

  That's good.

• 26:55Chris Voss?

  That's hysterical.

• 26:56Lewis Howes?

  That's great.

• 26:57Chris Voss?

  And so a guy goes, no, no, no, as a matter of fact, and he comes around the counter and he gives me like five, six free drink tickets at the bar. And I'm like, you know, I gotta, I gotta leave myself in a position to get other stuff.

• 27:08Lewis Howes?

  What's the go to approach for anyone trying to get an upgrade?

• 27:12Chris Voss?

  Well, so first of all.

• 27:13Lewis Howes?

  For a car upgrade, a hotel upgrade.

• 27:16Chris Voss?

  You gotta understand, since it's not about you, how do they see it?

• 27:20Chris Voss?

  And so, and then like it's an emotional journey. And the, and the journey is how it ends, not how it begins. You know, the last impression is the last impression. I gotta take them to this great place. It's gonna be three steps.

• 27:33Lewis Howes?

  Give it to me.

• 27:35Chris Voss?

  Now, in a, in a, in a hotel, I'm gonna be like, look, man, I'm getting ready to ruin your whole day.

• 27:42Lewis Howes?

  That's the first thing you say.

• 27:43Chris Voss?

  Well, you, you gotta give them your ID.

• 27:45Lewis Howes?

  Right, right, right.

• 27:46Chris Voss?

  They gotta.

• 27:46Lewis Howes?

  Credit card, ID.

• 27:48Chris Voss?

  They gotta find your reservation.

• 27:49Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 27:50Chris Voss?

  Cause they're gonna be distracted, they're gonna be multitasking.

• 27:52Lewis Howes?

  So they say, hey, you checking in?

• 27:53Chris Voss?

  Yeah, I'm checking in. Reservation. If you, if you got a points number, you give them the points number. You gotta wait for the moment and you go like, I'm getting ready to ruin your day. Now, and you gotta stop and you gotta wait till they tell you to go on. Now, from a hotel, from the hotel's perspective. Like they have seen every horrible thing you could imagine.

• 28:13Lewis Howes?

  Oh, I'm sure.

• 28:14Chris Voss?

  You know, do you have a goat in your bag? And you wanna do a satanic ritual sacrifice in a room?

• 28:19Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 28:20Chris Voss?

  Which we are never gonna be able to get that out of the walls.

• 28:22Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, exactly.

• 28:22Chris Voss?

  Like they, they've seen every horrible thing.

• 28:25Lewis Howes?

  Crazy parties, you know, animal feces, whatever, they say everything.

• 28:29Chris Voss?

  So when you say that, they immediately go to all this horrible stuff. Now, because you're gonna, you're gonna take, you're gonna take them to a better place.

• 28:36Lewis Howes?

  So you say first, are you ready for me to?

• 28:38Chris Voss?

  I'm, I'm getting ready to ruin your day.

• 28:40Lewis Howes?

  Oh, man.

• 28:41Chris Voss?

  And you let that sink in.

• 28:44Chris Voss?

  And, and then they go, and then, so now you gotta, you start bringing them out of it. How are you gonna say, how are you gonna seem to them if you're somebody? Who's asking for stuff for free?

• 28:53Lewis Howes?

  Uh huh.

• 28:54Chris Voss?

  You're cheap.

• 28:55Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 28:56Chris Voss?

  You're another cheap, entitled, self-centered traveler who's demanding. And so I'm like, I'm sure. Again, it's not, it's not a denial. It's an admission.

• 29:10Chris Voss?

  A prediction. I'm sure I'm gonna seem like another self-centered, unappreciative, demanding traveler who thinks the sun rises and sets on him. Who wants something for nothing. Now, you no longer have a goat in your suitcase. No, ritual sacrifice is not involved. You want something for free. Yes. They immediately start to feel better and relieved. Yes. Now, you, cause you asked me about questions. So now we get to the question to create a state of mind. The last obstacle is gonna be how much trouble they're gonna get into.

• 29:54Chris Voss?

  If they give me a free suite upgrade. Now, they, there's a colleague standing there. The, I've done this while the boss was standing there. Manager, yeah. I've done this literally while the manager was standing next to listen to this whole thing. They may need to go find a manager. So, how much trouble am I gonna get you in? If I ask for a free upgrade to a suite? Cause the last thing that's gonna go through their mind that they have to reconcile before they make the move is whether or not they're gonna get in any trouble. I lay this out in one hotel in New York. And as a woman's standing next, cause you're almost always gonna get it in front of somebody. This works in front of other employees, it works in front of customers.

• 30:38Chris Voss?

  You don't gotta be in a vacuum. And the boss jumps in and says, because you asked nicely, let me see what I could do. She starts checking the inventory. I wanna be there for four nights. And she says, look, if you can guarantee me that when you check out on Friday, you're out of here before 10 o'clock in the morning, I got an upgrade for you, but I got, I got late checkout prompts on Friday morning. You cannot have a late checkout. Wow. And I'm like, you got it. I mean, I'll, I'll come down in my pajamas if I gotta get out of there.

• 31:14Lewis Howes?

  Wow, okay, so the three steps is I'm getting ready to ruin your day. Some type of approach of.

• 31:20Chris Voss?

  Cause what are you getting ready to do? You're getting ready to give them something negative.

• 31:23Lewis Howes?

  Yes, and the second one is acknowledging that you're coming across as another greedy, demanding customer that expects the world to open up for them and have something for free. And then the third one is, tell me the third step again.

• 31:37Chris Voss?

  Question, how much trouble am I gonna get you in? If I issue a free upgrade to a suite? Now, and this like this emotional journey and really, the point is always leaving people better than you found them. And you know, they've been through a lot, like they wanna help you. If they would love to help you. The first thing is, do you appreciate what it is for them? Like this, this poor schmuck behind the counter, he's getting yelled at by everybody.

• 32:11Lewis Howes?

  Everyone.

• 32:12Chris Voss?

  You know, and, and, and everybody's going for the free upgrade. And you know, I had a friend of mine who had this really entertaining one, but the success rate was really low. You know, he's telling me, he says, you mean to tell me if the President of the United States wasn't coming in here tonight, you wouldn't have a suite? And the clerk says, of course we would. So, well, President ain't coming, give it to me.

• 32:31Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 32:32Chris Voss?

  That's really entertaining. But it left the guy resentful. Like, like one hotel I'm in where I get the upgrade for several nights. An hour after I check into the room, my plans changed dramatically. I gotta check out the following morning. I'm not staying two nights. Now, by and large, they are completely entitled, based on the terms of the contract, to charge me for the second night.

• 32:58Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 32:59Chris Voss?

  You know, I've agreed to that. I go down the next morning and I said, look, I am so sorry. This is my problem. This is not your problem. Cause it was my problem. And if I asked to check out without getting charged, their first reaction is like, look dude, that's your problem. Bad planning on your part is not constituted an emergency for me.

• 33:23Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, we're a business. We got stuff to do too.

• 33:25Chris Voss?

  You screwed up, why should we pay? So that's what they're gonna think. So they're gonna think it's my problem. So I've left them with really positive residue from the day before, cause they felt great about helping me out. And I said, look, I'm sorry, it's my problem. I go, what is it, what is it, what is it? I go, my plane has changed, I gotta check out, I gotta go home. And like, oh, no worries, no worries, we'll get you out here, what can we do? I mean, leaving, because even after the deal, you always need some sort of collaboration from somebody. You're gonna need something. It doesn't matter what it is. And even if you don't need something, you want them to feel like they helped you, they felt good about helping you.

• 34:05Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 34:06Chris Voss?

  You know, the hotel staff, they realized that you could give them a great social media review as a result. Which is gonna be really good for their business. They don't wanna get clobbered over the head. They don't want, well, I'm an influencer, and if you give me a free upgrade, I will broadcast it to all of my 75 followers on Instagram, that this is a great hotel. Like, everybody thinks they're an influencer.

• 34:30Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 34:30Chris Voss?

  Well, they want that, they just don't wanna get clubbed with it. So, if they liked helping you, just because something about the interaction, instead of making them feel uneasy, made them feel like they collaborated with another human being that saw their challenges, then all that other stuff that you wanna use as primaries, now great French benefits, social media, commentary. I'm gonna put a video on my Instagram about how cool the room is, or how great the view is, or, I'm in downtown Detroit, and how revitalized downtown Detroit is. And this phenomenal hotel suite that I'm in, that I'm like, I'll move in here, this is so nice. You know, so I'll put that out there.

• 35:13Chris Voss?

  But, you know, I don't wanna, I don't want them to, I don't wanna use it against them, I don't wanna leverage it against them. I want them to feel like, I did it because I wanted to, and because it was mutual gain.

• 35:24Lewis Howes?

  Yeah. What would you say, then, are the three biggest mistakes you see a lot of people doing in negotiations?

• 35:30Chris Voss?

  Trying to club somebody with their leverage.

• 35:34Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 35:35Chris Voss?

  Explaining, you know, I gotta go first, you know, I gotta set an anchor out. You know, this anchoring on price or terms is just such such a bad idea and so many people love to do it.

• 35:49Lewis Howes?

  Can you give an example what that means?

• 35:50Chris Voss?

  Um, like if I if I know I want to pay a hundred dollars and I'm saying, look, the best I could do is like 25, you know, and you know, you go to the side on the open market. I want to pay a hundred and I want you to work me up there. The real problem with extreme anchoring from the beginning, I think all season negotiators have learned, it drives deals from the table.

• 36:15Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 36:16Chris Voss?

  Like, I don't want to miss out a deal because my extreme anchor on the price of the terms at the beginning was so extreme.

• 36:24Lewis Howes?

  Mm hmm.

• 36:25Chris Voss?

  That you're like, I can never come close to this. When we should have made the deal, we should we should have figured out a way to work it out. Price doesn't break deals, doesn't make deals, it breaks them.

• 36:34Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 36:35Chris Voss?

  You don't make a great deal based on price. You can break a deal.

• 36:38Lewis Howes?

  If you're trying to undercut extremes.

• 36:41Chris Voss?

  Somebody's going to get mad, they're going to walk away.

• 36:43Lewis Howes?

  Uh huh.

• 36:44Chris Voss?

  You know, you're going to get a, you know, heck with you, I don't, you know, you insult me with that offer? And they just don't realize how many deals they drive away from the table.

• 36:53Lewis Howes?

  Interesting. If someone wants to get a better price on something, so that was, I think, the first off before I ask that question, that was the second, I think, mistake. Is there another big mistake people make in negotiation, the price, extreme price anchoring, using too much leverage to try to club someone? Was there another big one?

• 37:09Chris Voss?

  What a lot of people do that's actually taught out there a lot, um, which is really bad, is continue to ask for stuff after you made a deal. Like, ask for free stuff.

• 37:18Lewis Howes?

  That's the worst, right? We've made a good deal, here's a win-win, and now you're asking more and more and more. It's going to make, leave a sour taste in someone's mouth.

• 37:27Chris Voss?

  That's every time. And that's taught out there regularly.

• 37:31Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 37:32Chris Voss?

  It was, you know, there was a negotiation guru from the eighties, and I can't remember what he called it, but he gave the example, you go out and you get a custom-made suit.

• 37:42Chris Voss?

  And you've made the deal for the suit and one of the guys measuring you. You say, so how many free ties do I get with that? And he said, that's a great way to get free things, free little things, after they made the deal.

• 37:56Lewis Howes?

  Throw in a pocket square, throw in a couple of ties, throw on a couple of legs.

• 37:59Chris Voss?

  Whatever, whatever it is, you know, what, and what that does is make the person you did it to hate you. Which they're gonna resent it, and if they have the opportunity to fail to comply with any term, they will do that. Now unfortunately, that's taught really extensively. And it's done in business all the time. People call it scope creep, feature creep.

• 38:22Lewis Howes?

  Interesting.

• 38:22Chris Voss?

  Like it drives every single business person crazy, because they don't know how to deal with it. Now, the black swan method, you know, you might say, if you were good at how questions, you might say, how can I give you your free ties and continue to wanna do business with you?

• 38:45Chris Voss?

  You know, how can I be a great tailor for you if you ask me for free stuff and it cuts my margin?

• 38:50Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 38:51Chris Voss?

  You know, make their prop, what they ask for the obstacle to what they want. Either what you want is a path, or if what they want is bad, it's the obstacle.

• 39:03Chris Voss?

  You know, how can I serve the needs of your family? If you're cutting into my profit margins? You know, there's gotta be a way to wake somebody up to it. Because a lot of people have been taught that, they don't know any better. Like if I'd have stuck to that training that I learned from this guy back in the 1980s, I'd have thought it was okay, because I'm getting free ties all over the place.

• 39:22Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 39:23Chris Voss?

  Like a lot of people, if they, if they don't know any better, how do you wake them up? So that if they only knew, they'd change. Now, there's some people that are doing it on purpose. If you do something like that to me, because you didn't know any better, let me see if I can wake you up. If I can wake you up, awesome, we got a great long-term relationship. If I can't wake you up, I now know.

• 39:50Chris Voss?

  And I'm probably like, okay, cool, this is the last deal I make with this guy.

• 39:53Lewis Howes?

  One and done, yeah.

• 39:54Chris Voss?

  This is a one and done, I'm out. But I need to know, if, if you just did it by accident. I got a job negotiation, recently brought somebody onto my company.

• 40:05Chris Voss?

  Thought we had the deal settled. And the new employee. New employee. Yeah. Cause employment contracts like any other. And this person brings up a bunch of other stuff after we've laid out the terms. We've written the offer letter, we sent the offer letter. Offer letter doesn't get signed. Silence. Not a good sign. My director of operations who knows no oriented questions. She's this person in an email. Have you given up on signing the offer letter? Immediately comes back with a bunch of, you know, not ridiculous benefits. More asks.

• 40:50Chris Voss?

  More asks, which are not on a plate. Some of them, I'm like, wow, that was interesting. I never thought of that one. No, we can't do that, not in a million years. This is stuff I aspire to. But not you now. We can't do it now, but no, I like this one. It's just not in the package now. But my director of operations is like, I never had somebody come back. And I'm like, okay, so first I gotta do is I gotta find out, did this person just not know any better? So I engaged in the conversation and I said, all right, so however this goes, I want you to understand two things. First of all, I'm glad it came up now as opposed to six months from now. But secondly, this is a bad habit to bring stuff up after the deal has been cut.

• 41:34Chris Voss?

  So I'm guessing you just didn't know any better and you were uncomfortable bringing it up. Right. But if you come on board first, you gotta understand, we don't do this to people. And you gotta learn, we work all the little stuff out before we think we have an agreement. Instead of going for little stuff after the agreement. Right. And this person was like, hey, you know, I didn't know. And my intention is to help build the company and I appreciate you let me know. And I understand where you're coming from. They were genuine about it. They were very genuine. I needed to know that. Like was, is, was she, was this person advised to do this? Did they do it by accident? Or do they do that because this is going to be the predictor of future behavior?

• 42:20Chris Voss?

  Which now we have a real problem.

• 42:22Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 42:22Chris Voss?

  Because if this is a habit that you're born with, you are not gonna last and you can't represent me.

• 42:28Lewis Howes?

  No.

• 42:29Chris Voss?

  Because the people that work on my team are also my ambassadors. I gotta find out what option it is. And I go back and we talk it through and we settle everything out. And I got a list of things to aspire to for employee benefits.

• 42:46Chris Voss?

  Because these are great things.

• 42:47Lewis Howes?

  Sure. So to finish that up, one of the worst things you can do is ask for more and more and more and more things after the negotiation has been agreed on.

• 42:57Chris Voss?

  Right.

• 42:58Lewis Howes?

  Do that before the final agreement is what I'm hearing you say.

• 43:01Chris Voss?

  Yep.

• 43:01Lewis Howes?

  Yes. If someone's looking to buy-

• 43:03Chris Voss?

  Nice paraphrase, by the way.

• 43:05Lewis Howes?

  You wanna make sure I capture that. If someone is looking to buy, wanting to buy something, acquire something, whether they're buying a business, a car, a house,

• 43:16Lewis Howes?

  some potential expensive item, jewelry, something of more value than a thousand dollars. And they might be able to negotiate a lower price.

• 43:29Lewis Howes?

  You mentioned the extreme price anchoring, how that is a mistake. Right? There's a house for a million dollars, I'll give you 200 grand for it.

• 43:36Chris Voss?

  Right.

• 43:37Lewis Howes?

  But you wanna get a better deal.

• 43:39Chris Voss?

  Right.

• 43:40Lewis Howes?

  Maybe it's a Rolex, maybe it's a car, maybe it's a house, maybe you wanna acquire a business, whatever it is, something of higher value. A ring, an engagement ring, you're gonna marry someone.

• 43:48Chris Voss?

  Right, right, right. Let them make their profit off somebody else.

• 43:52Lewis Howes?

  Yeah. What should be the lower percentage on a higher item of value? How, what should the initial offer be? You wanna get a better deal. So you don't wanna pay a million dollars for a home, but you really want the home. You don't wanna pay 3,000 for the diamond ring, the engagement ring, but you really want that ring.

• 44:13Chris Voss?

  Right.

• 44:14Lewis Howes?

  How low of a percentage should you go to anchor? In order for you to feel like, oh, I got a great deal. And I got the thing I wanted. And they didn't get screwed over. You know what I mean?

• 44:27Chris Voss?

  Well, depending upon the context. I mean, like thirty, thirty percent is a good rule of thumb.

• 44:30Lewis Howes?

  To start at.

• 44:32Chris Voss?

  Well, for, for a target. Like if you, if you, and, and very, very context driven.

• 44:36Lewis Howes?

  Sure.

• 44:37Chris Voss?

  Like, for example, I'm in Macy's one time and, um, picking out this jacket. Girl I'm with really likes it. She searches this thing extensively. She finds like a thread out of place.

• 44:48Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 44:49Chris Voss?

  And she goes like, watch me get ten percent off on this jacket. And I'm like.

• 44:54Lewis Howes?

  Thread out of place.

• 44:57Chris Voss?

  I can get thirty percent by being nice.

• 44:59Lewis Howes?

  No way.

• 45:00Chris Voss?

  Yeah.

• 45:02Lewis Howes?

  Tell me more.

• 45:03Chris Voss?

  Well, I, like, in, in every transaction, you know, I look at it as an, there's an aggravation tax. Now, the person that you're dealing with is already built in the aggravation tax because of all the aggravating people that have come through the door ahead of them. So there's an aggravation penalty, there's an annoyance tax, there's an aggravation tax that's already there on a price. Now, if you're not aggravating, you don't need to pay the aggravation tax.

• 45:28Lewis Howes?

  Interesting.

• 45:28Chris Voss?

  Let somebody else pay that aggravation tax.

• 45:31Lewis Howes?

  And you benefit from them actually paying that, that tax.

• 45:34Chris Voss?

  Yeah, let's, let's somebody else pay it. Um, if I'm not aggravating, why should I pay the aggravating tax? So, you know, this young lady, she gotten ten percent off on a regular basis. I will be demanding. Ten, ten percent is the annoyance tax when there's another twenty percent to be gained.

• 45:53Lewis Howes?

  Hmm, interesting.

• 45:54Chris Voss?

  Like you don't, so many people don't realize how much money they're leaving on the table.

• 45:59Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 46:00Chris Voss?

  Like massive amounts of money. On, on any given, the difference between ten percent off and thirty percent off.

• 46:06Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 46:08Chris Voss?

  Like they got a way to give you a better deal.

• 46:11Lewis Howes?

  Mm-hmm.

• 46:12Chris Voss?

  If they feel like it.

• 46:15Lewis Howes?

  So how do you get them to feel like it?

• 46:16Chris Voss?

  Well, so, yeah, great, there you go, exactly. Again, the approach, very similar to the hotel thing. You know, there's, there's, there's a strategy where we sort of bundle the skills in a black swan method. We call it the accusations audit.

• 46:29Lewis Howes?

  The accusations audit.

• 46:31Chris Voss?

  Accusations audit. Let me do an audit of all the names you would call me.

• 46:41Chris Voss?

  If I'm gonna do this.

• 46:42Lewis Howes?

  Uh huh. You say this.

• 46:44Chris Voss?

  You say it to yourself.

• 46:45Lewis Howes?

  Okay, not to the.

• 46:45Chris Voss?

  Cause I need to come up with a list. So, again, it's like, look. You get annoying people come through here all day long, every day, want something for nothing. I'm gonna look like just like another one of these annoying jerks. It's really demanding and rub you the wrong way. Don't appreciate how hard it is for you to work in this jewelry store, this car dealership, this wherever you are. You are knocking yourself out at a tough sales job. You're trying to feed your family. People are coming here trying to take food out of your mouth. Cause how do they see it? You know, it's not about you. And it's not about, it's really not sympathy. You know, the difference between sympathy and empathy. You know, I feel your pain.

• 47:27Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 47:27Chris Voss?

  Like I've been there too. You know, like I'm a regular guy like you.

• 47:31Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 47:31Chris Voss?

  Like, don't give me that regular guy stuff. So, but you, you look at people like me, who want something for nothing, who come walking in all the time. You know, you look at us as, as wanting discounts and, you know, and you're trying to feed your family. Now suddenly, this person is like, oh, wow.

• 47:49Lewis Howes?

  They get it.

• 47:50Chris Voss?

  This is not the other annoying jerk that came in here. Now, now they're starting to open up. And then, you know, you talked before about being playful. Being playful about this can be a really big deal.

• 48:01Lewis Howes?

  I, I've gotten so many things for free for being playful, or upgrades, or discounts, just by, let me just say a friendly joke, or just something funny.

• 48:09Chris Voss?

  Right.

• 48:09Lewis Howes?

  You know, let me just be goofy and dance in front of them and be like, what is this guy doing, you know?

• 48:13Chris Voss?

  Yeah. You've just got, you don't gotta pay the aggravation tax.

• 48:17Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 48:18Chris Voss?

  And then plus.

• 48:21Chris Voss?

  See, Sean says you're 31% smarter in a positive frame of mind. Not only have you put the person in a better mood, you now got them thinking about options. What can they do? What, you know, how can they help you? What can they get away with? How can they shortcut the TSA line? How can they, um, what's the code for the employee discount?

• 48:40Chris Voss?

  Like I, you know, in this, the same place where I'm, where I'm trying to get this 30% or so off. And I'm joking around with this guy.

• 48:46Lewis Howes?

  Sure.

• 48:47Chris Voss?

  You know, and, and one of the things, get him to see as a human being. I'm like, well, I'm Chris. Is there a Chris discount? What kind of Chris discount is there? And they laugh at that. And so, and I'm still not getting enough of a discount. And finally I go like, look.

• 49:02Chris Voss?

  Give me the employee discount. I've been joking around, I smile when I say this. This guy goes like, if I give you the employee discount, I gotta pay for this thing myself. And I go, I'll pay it back. And I'm laughing and he laughs. And so he looks at the machine and I says, wait right here. And he walks around and I see him. And I walks up to a person and I perceive to be the manager. He's whispering in the manager's ear. And I see this manager standing there going like, no.

• 49:26Lewis Howes?

  No, really?

• 49:29Chris Voss?

  And he comes walking back and another employee intercepts him, whispers in his ear. And I see his eyes light up and he walks over and he plugs in a discount for me. And we get the 30% off.

• 49:40Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 49:40Chris Voss?

  But I was joking with him. I was showing I knew what it looked like from his perspective.

• 49:48Chris Voss?

  I'm getting myself out of this aggravation tax thing. You know, let somebody else pay the demanding, aggressive, annoying tax. You go in there and you brighten somebody else's day up.

• 50:07Chris Voss?

  You leave the world a better place. You get some practice in. Cause you want that confidence for the big negotiation.

• 50:15Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 50:16Chris Voss?

  And all these things work for you. And you are, you end up feeling better about the day yourself.

• 50:21Lewis Howes?

  Yes, you get a fun interaction. And you got a discount.

• 50:24Chris Voss?

  Exactly.

• 50:24Lewis Howes?

  Do you practice every day? Any, on any transa-, I mean, any financial transaction, are you practicing? Even if it's a cup of coffee, if it's a, the gas station, if it's a hotel, it's a plane. Any, are you always practicing?

• 50:37Chris Voss?

  It's a perishable skill. And me and everybody on my team, if we let ourselves get out of practice, we get rusty.

• 50:44Lewis Howes?

  Interesting.

• 50:45Chris Voss?

  I'm really used to minority questions, that's pretty much all I ask.

• 50:49Lewis Howes?

  What questions?

• 50:50Chris Voss?

  Uh, no oriented, where I'm trying to get you to say no.

• 50:54Lewis Howes?

  That's what you do.

• 50:54Chris Voss?

  Ridiculous idea.

• 50:55Lewis Howes?

  You're pricing that constantly.

• 50:56Chris Voss?

  I keep that, I keep that teed up constantly.

• 50:58Lewis Howes?

  Is it a ridiculous idea is kind of your go-to?

• 51:00Chris Voss?

  Yeah.

• 51:01Lewis Howes?

  Is it a ridiculous idea for me to get a, the employee discount today?

• 51:04Chris Voss?

  Yeah. And so depending upon my daily interactions, I get so caught up in my world, then I don't get my practice in. And so.

• 51:16Chris Voss?

  Like when we started traveling and right after the pandemic, I'm getting ready to go into a hotel. I haven't done a hotel upgrade in a while. And I almost talked myself out of it.

• 51:25Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 51:26Chris Voss?

  I am, I'm, oh, this, you know, amygdala is kicking in. This is not gonna work.

• 51:31Lewis Howes?

  I'm gonna embarrass myself.

• 51:32Chris Voss?

  I'm tired. I can, I can see this guy turning me down. I mean, I literally stand outside the hotel and I go, "All right, all right, you can do this. Come on, come on, you can do it. You can do it." And I, I gotta sack myself up because I'm out of practice.

• 51:45Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, but you're the guy.

• 51:48Chris Voss?

  That's right. Everybody, it's perishable. For everybody. It ain't, it is not riding a bike.

• 51:54Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 51:55Chris Voss?

  And then you also gotta be willing, like, if it works nine times out of 10, sometimes you don't get anything.

• 52:01Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 52:01Chris Voss?

  Hotel I was in recently, you know, my read of the guy is you run across deceptive people that are not there to help you, that are not gonna give you anything. And through the course of the interaction, I get several very strong reads that this person was that minority that we're all afraid of as the majority. They're a minority and they're there. And so that interaction was, all right, so my read is this, this, and this. Now I'm smarter. I see this guy coming farther away. Like Conor McGregor, you know, I win or I learn.

• 52:41Lewis Howes?

  Sure, sure.

• 52:42Chris Voss?

  You know, you win or you learn.

• 52:44Lewis Howes?

  Now, I'm curious, when you go into a store, a hotel, a, you know, airport, is it, and there's multiple options of people to talk to, who you would buy from or get upgraded from. You know, there's two people at the counter. There's three people at the store. Are you assessing first who I should approach based on body language, based on if they smile, if they're, you know, in a more positive state? Or is it depending on male, female? Is it, do you have a success rate based on, is it just more an intuitive feeling that who you walk up to?

• 53:17Chris Voss?

  You know, I hadn't thought about that before. What I'm really more worried about is what kind of vibe I'm putting off. Like, I don't have a lot of control over who I'm gonna get.

• 53:28Chris Voss?

  In point of fact, they're reading me before I start reading them.

• 53:33Chris Voss?

  Cause you know, they got, they got a revolving door, they're picking up this energy. I think there's actual energy there. It's one of the things I bounced off of. Andrew Huberman. You know, is the, is the energy actually there? Interesting. And he's like, the data doesn't support it. I suspect it's possible. Uh huh. And he's a very data-driven guy. Very. He's solid, solid. Science. Solid science. Peer-reviewed journals. Yes. He's like, the data ain't there yet. But I think it exists. That's Chris Voss saying it, not Andrew Huberman. Andrew didn't say that. He didn't say, I think it exists. Chris Voss says, I think it exists. These people behind the counter, they're picking up on my vibe. So what I gotta do, instead of sitting there like, I want this guy, I want this guy, I want this guy.

• 54:18Chris Voss?

  I might be putting off a bad vibe. I need to put off a relaxed vibe. Yeah, just go walk right out. I'm not in any hurry. Like I'm, I'm cool. If I'm looking at them. I gotta make sure I'm looking at them and my inner voice is saying like, take your time. I know you guys are busy. Right. I can't look at them like, do your job. I'm standing here, I'm a customer, you should be waiting. They're gonna pick up on that, if that's my inner voice. Mm hmm. So I gotta get my inner voice. In a place where I'm giving off a positive vibe. Relaxed, positive. And then, then I'm gonna roll up and I'm gonna do, I'm gonna do a read on the person in a moment. You know, if they look like they're having a bad day, I'm gonna say, tough day.

• 54:59Chris Voss?

  I'm, I'm hitting the reads on the TSA people all the time. Really? For practice. I do, I do a misread on a TSA guy. Don't remember what airport I was in. I ended up in an unexpected negotiation on the phone 15 minutes later. Because of the misread, I looked at this TSA guy and he just looked kinda blank. And I said, tough day? And he kinda went.

• 55:25Chris Voss?

  And then I went, just another day, right? He goes, yeah, yeah, just another day. But that little read is like stretching before going in the game. Mm hmm. And the conversation I had 15 minutes later.

• 55:39Chris Voss?

  Which caught me off guard. Because I did the read earlier. It was a really successful conversation.

• 55:46Lewis Howes?

  What was that conversation?

• 55:47Chris Voss?

  I needed a favor from somebody. And I did, I said, am I offending you if I ask you for this favor? Because I needed him to go out of my way for me. And I did the no oriented question and I did sort of, you know, what am I gonna do if I ask him? I might offend him, I'm doing an emotional read. I throw the two of them together on the spur of the moment. Which is really kind of where you want to get.

• 56:08Lewis Howes?

  Interesting.

• 56:09Chris Voss?

  You know, you, you play the same notes over and over and over and suddenly you combine them in the moment.

• 56:15Lewis Howes?

  That's pretty cool.

• 56:15Chris Voss?

  And that's why I work on my no oriented questions all the time and I'll do a random cold read. The TSA guy. My favorite one. I, I, I, I'm always got a bottle of water in my bag. I forget, I forget to pour out the water. TSA New Jersey, I got a New Jersey TSA guy.

• 56:32Lewis Howes?

  Gonna put up with nothing.

• 56:33Chris Voss?

  Is it, exactly. So they get the water and they're taking my bag off to the side. Now they could almost walk me back out to the curb because the line is so long there through security. And the guy's got the bag. And I realized, I don't want to spend another 20 minutes in line, so I go. Bless me Father, for I have sinned. And he walks, he looks at me, he walks, he looks at me and he goes. How long since your last confession, my son?

• 57:02Lewis Howes?

  Funny.

• 57:03Chris Voss?

  I'm like, I'm like, you know, an hour ago, I'm screwing up all the time. And, and he, he, he took the water, we poured it out, he's not supposed to pour it out. He poured it out for me, he turned around and walked me back, cut me in line in front of everybody else. Put me right back in the thing. It's just, yeah, I'm taking care of this guy, it's okay, and it put me through.

• 57:21Lewis Howes?

  Wow. That's great. That's amazing. Someone taught me this like 12 years ago. And he said, use this. Say, what are the chances? That you can do this? What are the chances you can get me an upgrade? What are the chances you'd be able to do this?

• 57:39Chris Voss?

  Yeah.

• 57:40Lewis Howes?

  After you've created the rapport and the connection and all those things. What's the chance? And that has worked really well for me. And I'm wondering, why do you think using that has also worked?

• 57:53Chris Voss?

  Okay, so I'm, and I'm glad you brought that up. Because you asked me about questions before. If you're gonna ask a question, they should only start with either the words how or what.

• 58:04Chris Voss?

  Because they feel very deferential to the other side. People love to be asked what somebody should do, or how somebody should do something. It's extremely appealing to the other side. There's great power in deference. It feels deferential.

• 58:24Chris Voss?

  So it's a lot more impactful than just saying it's an open-ended question. The who, what, when, where, why, and how should really just be narrowed down to what and how. Okay. Now, how is primarily, but not exclusively,

• 58:46Chris Voss?

  to map implementation? How am I supposed to do that? Is actually, how am I supposed to implement that? You know, how do we get this done? It's implementation. What, primarily but not exclusively, to uncover obstacles?

• 59:07Chris Voss?

  What stands in the way? What are the chances? So when you put it like that, you got a what question. It feels deferential. It's open-ended. It triggers deep thinking. Danny Kahneman talks about deep, slow thinking. Your demeanor is very genuine and curious and connective. You want to talk with people. And then what are the chances? Triggers people to immediately begin to assess where the obstacles in the environment are. And they're really gonna, probably, if you look back on all your answers, because what are the chances? Most of the time, if I were to technically answer that question,

• 59:51Chris Voss?

  I'm see, the answer would be 50%, 75%. Right, right. In point of fact, people probably say like, well, here's what we got to overcome. Here's what we got to do. Here's what that would look like. They would be answering you in regards to the things to be overcome in order to make it happen.

• 1:00:10Lewis Howes?

  And then you can negotiate more and.

• 1:00:12Chris Voss?

  And then they would think about chances or how hard each of those obstacles would be to overcome. So those are the things I love about that question.

• 1:00:19Lewis Howes?

  That's interesting. When you were practicing, again, you're practicing all the time. I feel like this is something I've been doing as just a game in my life, just like a fun challenge. Can I get this from this person? Can I do this? Can I get an upgrade? It's just like a fun thing that I've been doing for a while. But when I started reading your book and having you on, I was like, okay, I need to do this even more. The question I'm curious about is with every interaction, is there always something we can get? Even if they say no, like for example, if they say, no, we can't upgrade you. I try to say, well, can I have a free mint?

• 1:00:53Lewis Howes?

  And if they say, oh, we don't have any mints, then I say, can I get a fist bump? You know, can I get a smile? I'm always trying to like get a something, even if it's a little something. What's your thoughts on that? Like even if they say, even if they say no to everything that you want, but can you smile? Can you give me a bottle of water? Can you give me something, you know?

• 1:01:12Chris Voss?

  Yeah. Yeah, no, I love it. There's energy, there's measurable energy. So it's always, if you're a complete mercenary, it's to your advantage to be increasing your positive karma.

• 1:01:25Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 1:01:25Chris Voss?

  That's going to constantly increase your chances of success.

• 1:01:28Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 1:01:29Chris Voss?

  And the more karma you leave around you, you know, whether it's real or whether, you know, who knows what it is? But you're gonna, you're going to increase your chances of success.

• 1:01:39Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 1:01:40Chris Voss?

  And so, or, you know, you increase the chance of success to the guy behind you. And the guy behind you ends up sitting next to you on a plane. Or, you know, whoever's in line alongside you as you're increasing that karma is probably there because, yeah, if you're on the airplane, they're going to be on a plane next to you. They might be the dude next to you. You know, they might be the guy who either rubs the flight attendant the wrong way or he makes her feel good. And consequently, when she walks up to you, she has a different, I mean, there's, you know, the sort of the domino effect. The domino effect's always there. So I love that. I love that approach.

• 1:02:21Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:02:21Chris Voss?

  And then, in point of fact, you're doing it in a positive fashion, which keeps you smart.

• 1:02:27Lewis Howes?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:02:28Chris Voss?

  So you're probably more prepared for your next interaction.

• 1:02:32Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 1:02:33Chris Voss?

  And there's nothing that fuels our momentum like success.

• 1:02:37Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 1:02:38Chris Voss?

  So if all you got us was a fist bump.

• 1:02:40Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 1:02:41Chris Voss?

  You're walking forward with a success.

• 1:02:43Lewis Howes?

  Something, yeah. It's something, okay. Good to know.

• 1:02:47Lewis Howes?

  Can you share your, for you, your greatest negotiation? Both when you were working FBI, it could be not in a hostage situation, but just the greatest negotiation you had during your time there? And also your greatest negotiation in life outside of that? This could be something small, this could have been for like the biggest deal ever. This could have been an intimate relationship, this could have been buying a car. This could be, you know, rescuing a hostage. I'm curious if you can give one example, personal life and professional life?

• 1:03:24Chris Voss?

  Wow. Yeah, I mean, there was, there was some different victories in hostage negotiation. After a really bad debacle, second case I worked in the Philippines, second major case, the Burnham-Sonny Barrow case. Two to three hostages died in friendly fire at the end. That whole case, 13 months from beginning to end, a lot of people died. It was a train wreck. It was, it was ugly from start to finish. An American citizen was executed early on. I mean, everything about that was ugly, everything. And we had, somebody got proof of life in the middle of that case, and I don't know who it was or how they got it. And we find out one of our hostages on the phone.

• 1:04:06Chris Voss?

  Hostage is only ever on the phone for proof of life, and he ain't on the phone with us. And we're thinking like, who the heck is out there? Is that a competing bidder for the hostages? Like, it was insane. So struggled with that for a long time, finally got the revelation how it's done, which is, in my view, somebody on the other side and another player asked a how question?

• 1:04:32Chris Voss?

  So that was when we first got onto how questions. Drug dealer in Pittsburgh.

• 1:04:36Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 1:04:37Chris Voss?

  Drug dealer on drug dealer kidnapping. They, drug dealer goes to the FBI, cause who do you go to when somebody in Puerto Rico kidnapped? The FBI, no matter who you are, even if you're a drug dealer. His girlfriend gets grabbed by another drug dealer. Hostage negotiator's riding around with this guy. On his own, he says to the other bad guy, hey dog, it's my favorite phrase of all time. Hey dog, how do I know she's alive? How question. Everything changes in that moment. Who really had the upper hand shifted? From the guy with the quote leverage, who had the hostage. Total shift in upper hand when he asked that how question. So I'm like, this is it, this is it, this is it, we gotta change.

• 1:05:19Lewis Howes?

  Start doing how questions.

• 1:05:20Chris Voss?

  We gotta do how questions.

• 1:05:22Lewis Howes?

  What if someone, the, uh, the person who has the hostage is like, well, you have to trust me or this person's gonna die. You know, you just have to believe, you know?

• 1:05:32Chris Voss?

  That's a possibility.

• 1:05:33Lewis Howes?

  Right. And then what would the follow up how question be? If someone's being unreasonable and not giving you a little bit?

• 1:05:42Chris Voss?

  How are we supposed to pay if we don't know they're alive?

• 1:05:44Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 1:05:45Chris Voss?

  You know, we got, we got, we got a couple lined up for the bad scenario. Now, there's a possibility that they may still go, cause that's the way it is.

• 1:05:58Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 1:05:59Chris Voss?

  But you gotta go that path to find out first. You can't be afraid of going that path. So we decided to do the how questions. And we do a shift. We got another kidnapping in Ecuador. It's a guy named Pepe, who I'm still friends with.

• 1:06:17Lewis Howes?

  The kidnapper?

• 1:06:18Chris Voss?

  The hostage.

• 1:06:19Lewis Howes?

  Oh, I was like, I got you. I was like, the kidnapper?

• 1:06:22Chris Voss?

  I got some bizarre friends.

• 1:06:23Lewis Howes?

  I'm sure you do.

• 1:06:24Chris Voss?

  I got former prison gang members that are friends.

• 1:06:26Lewis Howes?

  I'm sure you do, yeah.

• 1:06:27Chris Voss?

  But none of them were hostage takers.

• 1:06:29Lewis Howes?

  Okay, yeah. So this was the hostage?

• 1:06:32Chris Voss?

  Hostage, Pepe, he's still a friend, he and his family. So we ask a how question. Now, it's in Ecuador, and the Galla, which is the local police in Ecuador. They're like, "We don't do it like that down here." We ask a different proof of life question. Pepe's wife afterwards says she knew there was tension between the FBI and the Galla, and she knew it was there. But she appreciated professionalism that nobody would argue in front of her. Well, they were arguing about this change I wanted them to make. So we're doing a how question, and halfway through this thing,

• 1:07:05Chris Voss?

  they start referring to Pepe as Don Pepe.

• 1:07:09Chris Voss?

  And we're like, "What? Don, that's a sign of respect." "What? In God's name, what's going on on the other side of the table?"

• 1:07:19Chris Voss?

  And about 28 days in, Don Pepe makes good his escape. He escapes. Goes out, 2:00 in the morning, driving, rainstorm, middle of the jungle, goes out a window. He's a jungle guy. He was a jungle guide ahead of time. The 28 days, he'd been there, he figured out where the nearest town was, how to get there. He knew if he goes out in rain, all he needs is a 20-minute head start, they're not going to be able to track him. He's going to be able to get to town, he's going to be able to get out of there. Interesting. 28 days in, I get a call from the same negotiator that had called me a year earlier and said, "I got bad news, Martin Burnham is dead." This same guy happens to be in Ecuador on my behalf. And he says, "Hey, Pepe's out. He escaped.

• 1:08:04Chris Voss?

  He hasn't got out of guerrilla territory yet. He's on a bus. We're going to meet him." Wow. And so, I'm, this is all this how thing. So, we never got proof of life. I can't wait to interview Pepe. He's actually a New York State resident, he's an American citizen, dual national. I'm sent down with him in upstate New York, and I'm like, "Hey, you know..."

• 1:08:29Chris Voss?

  We never, we never, we never got proof of life. We're asking this how question, and he said, you know, it was crazy. The whole time, they talked about taking me to town to put me on the phone. And, and they kept talking with me about that. And that was one of the major factors, that he went from being a commodity, a piece of property that they were housing in a house, waiting to be sold. To this forced interaction on the other side of the table, where they had to talk to him regularly.

• 1:09:03Lewis Howes?

  Kind of build a relationship with them.

• 1:09:05Chris Voss?

  And he happened to be very good at relationship building.

• 1:09:08Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 1:09:09Chris Voss?

  So we triggered the interaction, and then he capitalized on it with his natural gut instincts.

• 1:09:15Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 1:09:16Chris Voss?

  Creating the opportunity, they, they relaxed his security so much, because they got to know him as a person. They were less worried about him running away. They got very relaxed around him, they, they gave him the run of the camp. He sees the opportunity, 2 a.m. rainstorm, he's gone.

• 1:09:31Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 1:09:32Chris Voss?

  And that, to me, that was like, great negotiation gives the opportunity for good things to happen.

• 1:09:38Lewis Howes?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:09:39Chris Voss?

  And you don't get so focused on your outcome that you wouldn't take something better.

• 1:09:42Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 1:09:43Chris Voss?

  And just, just engage in a process, and let great things happen.

• 1:09:48Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 1:09:49Chris Voss?

  And he escaped, and that was not part of the game plan. And I realized if we've got a great process, if good things are gonna happen, you gotta let them happen.

• 1:09:59Lewis Howes?

  Yes, that's powerful. And what about personal, personal life outside of the FBI? Best, most memorable negotiation, again, it could be some big deal, or something that was small, but really meaningful to you.

• 1:10:14Chris Voss?

  Wow. Director of Operations, Black Swan Group.

• 1:10:17Lewis Howes?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:10:19Chris Voss?

  Chelsea.

• 1:10:21Chris Voss?

  Loves working with us. And we initially brought her in as one of the, you know, the virtual assistants.

• 1:10:30Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 1:10:30Chris Voss?

  You know, not an employee. And you get a virtual assistant because if they don't work out, you don't got to fire them. You say, hey, this person wasn't right fit. We learned about fit. Chelsea's phenomenal. And just loves working with us. And the most satisfying one was when we hired her. The virtual company wanted to continue with us as a customer and we were good customer. And so they let, you know, the deal that you sign in advance is if you hire an assistant, you got to pay them a penalty.

• 1:11:07Lewis Howes?

  You got to pay them like 30 or 50% of that year's salary or whatever.

• 1:11:11Chris Voss?

  Right, like they waived that. We brought Chelsea, you know, we got a waiver because we continue to do business with them. And we're a good customer and we're not demanding jerks. No aggravation tax. But we took one of their top people. So that negotiation went well. And when we brought Chelsea on board, we gave her a substantial raise. And she, she almost broke down in tears. That was cool.

• 1:11:33Lewis Howes?

  That's cool.

• 1:11:34Chris Voss?

  And she's, to this day, like I joke around that she's like I'm a toddler and she's, she's a minor, she keeps tracking me.

• 1:11:44Lewis Howes?

  Right, right.

• 1:11:44Chris Voss?

  And if I'm not where I'm supposed to be, you know, I'm getting a buzzing on my phone.

• 1:11:48Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, that's great.

• 1:11:49Chris Voss?

  Her husband plays a banjo, so her ringtone is a banjo.

• 1:11:52Lewis Howes?

  Wow, that's great. In a world that has now shifted to what seems like might be a for a while, half virtual, half in person. This kind of flexible style of communication. What have you noticed over the last couple of years about the challenges of virtual negotiations versus in-person negotiations?

• 1:12:16Chris Voss?

  See, that's another reason why I think this energy thing that you feel is real. Because, you know, people get on Zoom and they go like, ah, you know, I gotta see him. I gotta see him. I gotta be in person. Like, you got almost all the same data visually that you had before.

• 1:12:28Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 1:12:29Chris Voss?

  Like, if you and I are meeting in person and we're at a table, I don't see you from the waist down.

• 1:12:33Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 1:12:33Chris Voss?

  If we're on Zoom, I don't see you from the waist down. The amount of visual data is all there, and everybody feels more uncomfortable on Zoom.

• 1:12:44Lewis Howes?

  More uncomfortable? Uncomfortable.

• 1:12:46Chris Voss?

  Everybody complains about the comfort feeling on Zoom. And they attribute it to the visual data, and the visual data hasn't changed. And it's my belief that there is a feel. There's an actual feel that we get from people when we're in the room. And I, I think it's one more indicator of why, you know, this, whether you call them, you know, auras or, you know, the energy that you exude is an actual thing. And we just don't have the ability to measure it yet.

• 1:13:18Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 1:13:19Chris Voss?

  I mean, like, if we were all deaf, sound would seem mystical, right?

• 1:13:21Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 1:13:22Chris Voss?

  So I think, I think that's what we've learned in terms of human communication. And then I think the, the hybrid model is actually better for everybody. I think it's created a better work environment. I think we, we have learned that we can be more effective at home, and we need to get out of our houses.

• 1:13:41Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 1:13:42Chris Voss?

  And we need to be in person.

• 1:13:44Lewis Howes?

  And be both.

• 1:13:44Chris Voss?

  Yeah, and so how do we blend the two? So that not only you're happier and more productive, and you're happier because you're more productive. And then, and then you find the right job, and your employer's happier with you. Because you're doing a better job and you're happier.

• 1:14:03Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:04Chris Voss?

  So I, I think, uh, energy is real. In-person energy is real. I love the evolution of how we're creating a better work environment. I don't think you have to have an office. But I think we need to be in person frequently, just to feel. There's something about matching of the energies that makes us all better.

• 1:14:22Lewis Howes?

  That's cool. Have you ever gone up against, not like gone up against, but worked with another master negotiator? And

• 1:14:30Chris Voss?

  Everybody on my team.

• 1:14:31Lewis Howes?

  Yeah. I mean, but maybe a complete stranger that you're like, oh, this person, oh, they know what they're doing. Like, they're, they're another level of, they're using your strategies, or they have their own that are really effective. And is it harder to negotiate with someone who is actually really powerful communicator, confident, using great negotiation strategies, not manipulative? Or is it easier because you kind of both speak the same language?

• 1:14:58Chris Voss?

  It's, uh, well, it really depends upon whether or not they're trying to be collaborative.

• 1:15:02Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:03Chris Voss?

  And so it's easier. A black swan trained negotiator is trying to be collaborative. That's a great negotiation. I mean, and, and we're, we're engaged in it all the time. Like, our, our clients, we're making them better negotiators. Like, we're always trying to scare out a better deal. We're always trying to figure out what's better for them, what's better for us.

• 1:15:25Lewis Howes?

  Sure.

• 1:15:27Chris Voss?

  Um, and so, welcome it. It's really what the other person's trying to do. And there, we've run across some old style people. You know, you're here in Los Angeles. Entertainment industry is famous for being purely exploitive.

• 1:15:43Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 1:15:44Chris Voss?

  So you could have a great resume in the entertainment industry and be a really offensive human being. Now, because of your resume, your employer might think and are hiring a great person. When in fact, you're running around offending people regularly. And, and had a negotiation like this.

• 1:16:02Chris Voss?

  Where it started going off the rails early. And I looked this person up and they had an extensive entertainment industry background. And I thought, all right, here's the problem.

• 1:16:12Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 1:16:13Chris Voss?

  Their resume looks great. But it's from an industry where if you cannot get every, get all the chips.

• 1:16:24Chris Voss?

  Then you don't want to do that deal.

• 1:16:25Lewis Howes?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:16:27Chris Voss?

  And and then I, which I also think the top level of the entertainment industry, you know, these guys and gals get together at a social function. And they say, look, stop messing around. What do you need? How do we make this deal?

• 1:16:41Lewis Howes?

  Right, right, right.

• 1:16:42Chris Voss?

  But they're very quiet about that.

• 1:16:44Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 1:16:44Chris Voss?

  Because they don't want to be seen as pushovers.

• 1:16:46Lewis Howes?

  Right, because it takes a month or two to negotiate, then they're back during like, what do we need to do? Let's figure this out.

• 1:16:52Chris Voss?

  Yeah. Yeah, so we, you know, we see, when I see those types adopting our skills, if somebody's using Black Swan against me,

• 1:17:03Chris Voss?

  but I'll figure that out really fast.

• 1:17:05Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 1:17:07Chris Voss?

  And I'm, no, it's not a sin to not get the deal. It's a sin to take a long time to not get the deal.

• 1:17:13Lewis Howes?

  Hmm, because you're wasting time.

• 1:17:14Chris Voss?

  You're wasting time. It's also a sin to take a long time to get a bad deal.

• 1:17:18Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:19Chris Voss?

  So if I know the deal is going to be a bad deal, then we quit and we move on.

• 1:17:24Lewis Howes?

  What are you doing, something you feel like is dragging off? You're going back and forth, back and forth. And it's been weeks, a month.

• 1:17:30Chris Voss?

  We don't go back and forth.

• 1:17:31Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 1:17:32Chris Voss?

  No. Look, there's a good reason it's going back and forth. We're going to figure that out and we're going to make a decision. We're going to move on.

• 1:17:40Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 1:17:41Chris Voss?

  And we started, you know, our internal terminology, which I borrowed from a guy, Joe Polish, Gene Shoup, he calls them halves and elves. Easy look at them, fun, hard, annoying, lame and frustrating. What some people would call a Peter, pain in the neck.

• 1:17:57Chris Voss?

  Peter does not obviously finish with an N.

• 1:17:59Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:18:01Chris Voss?

  But everybody's got their term for that person. So I tell my team, who negotiates on my behalf all the time, look, let's walk away from the half sooner rather than later. Let's develop a profile of what a half says, so we can figure them out earlier. Now, in the meantime, Let's pull our own data. How long does it take to make a deal with a good customer? How long does it take to make a deal with an annoying customer? And we found out two things. Number one, it can take five times as long to make the deal with an annoying customer.

• 1:18:37Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 1:18:38Chris Voss?

  So now we're working at 20% of our pay. We just took an 80% pay cut.

• 1:18:43Lewis Howes?

  Interesting.

• 1:18:44Chris Voss?

  And the annoying customers are not repeats.

• 1:18:49Lewis Howes?

  Right. They're tankers, yeah.

• 1:18:51Chris Voss?

  And if they're annoying for us, we're probably annoying for them. So here's the proposition. Do you want repeat customers that pay you full value? Or do you want one-offs that want an 80% discount and you're never gonna see them again? So as soon as you drop the one-offs, then the repeaters accelerate. And how do you put yourself in a position where your business accelerates?

• 1:19:20Lewis Howes?

  Right, you let go of those types of people.

• 1:19:22Chris Voss?

  You let go of friction.

• 1:19:23Lewis Howes?

  It's learning the profile and learning to understand what are the cues

• 1:19:26Chris Voss?

  Yep.

• 1:19:27Lewis Howes?

  of those types of individuals.

• 1:19:29Chris Voss?

  Yeah. We did the same thing in hostage negotiations. They realized that there were some bad guys that were not gonna come out. Suicide by cop. And once we recognized suicide by cop, which is, you know, the harsh nature of the reality is, if a guy went there to die and he has hostages, what we had to accept was that he's gonna kill hostages until we kill him. And it was always a him.

• 1:19:54Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 1:19:56Chris Voss?

  And so then, if this is going to be the case, are there telltale signs at the beginning? And my old boss Gary Nester came up with a block of instruction called high-risk indicators. What are the indicators of high risk? What are you gonna see in the first hour? And so I went back to my team and I, well, we're gonna do high-risk indicators for bad customers.

• 1:20:20Lewis Howes?

  Hmm, that's good.

• 1:20:21Chris Voss?

  What are they gonna say in the first hour?

• 1:20:23Lewis Howes?

  Interesting.

• 1:20:24Chris Voss?

  And then let's, and then let's, before we know for sure, let's make a list of the things that they say that we suspect, and then let's just track how long it took to make the deal and whether or not they made another deal. And you will be shocked, it doesn't matter who you are. The behavior is gonna be repeated in your world over and over and over. And you're gonna be able to spot them in the first 20 minutes.

• 1:20:55Lewis Howes?

  If I look back at all the relationships, intimate relationships that didn't work, I could go back and spot the first, you know, interaction, the second one and and realize, well, that was all because of me. I didn't spot it correctly. And I kept repeating the wrong relationships, so.

• 1:21:13Lewis Howes?

  But that's good. It's having those indicators, tracking it, and then adjusting moving forward when you have a new potential customer, potential girlfriend, whatever it might be. Having that indicator.

• 1:21:24Chris Voss?

  I'll give you one of the big ones in business, if somebody was gonna be a problem.

• 1:21:28Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 1:21:29Chris Voss?

  I've got a great opportunity for you.

• 1:21:32Lewis Howes?

  That's a bad indicator.

• 1:21:34Chris Voss?

  It's a bad indicator. And what that means is, this is a great opportunity for me if you do all the work.

• 1:21:42Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:44Chris Voss?

  A lot of people are seduced by the enormity of the opportunity. Like, there's a lot of money there. I got a bunch of billionaires in a room. This is a great opportunity for you. No, it's not.

• 1:21:58Lewis Howes?

  No, you're doing all the work, yeah.

• 1:22:00Chris Voss?

  You wanna put me in front of those billionaires, cuz they're gonna make you look good. And so, then my question will be back to you like, alright, so,

• 1:22:10Chris Voss?

  how's this play down the past?

• 1:22:13Chris Voss?

  Who that looks like me, did you put in this position? And how did it work out for them? Because now, that's implementation.

• 1:22:25Chris Voss?

  Like, alright, so you got me worried by offering me this great opportunity. I suspect it means, if I do all the work, something will come of this. So, maybe?

• 1:22:40Chris Voss?

  What's that work look like?

• 1:22:42Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 1:22:43Chris Voss?

  Have you done this in the past?

• 1:22:44Lewis Howes?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:22:45Chris Voss?

  How did it work out?

• 1:22:46Lewis Howes?

  Sure.

• 1:22:46Chris Voss?

  I'm asking how questions.

• 1:22:48Lewis Howes?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:22:49Chris Voss?

  Cause I'm suspicious, but I gotta worry about how's this gonna go?

• 1:22:52Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:53Chris Voss?

  So that that's been a real consistent thing across the board.

• 1:22:57Lewis Howes?

  It's a big indicator. Yeah. It's powerful stuff, Chris.

• 1:23:00Chris Voss?

  Look, I got a great opportunity for you. You know what? If you would just go to Dubai and move your whole operation to Dubai.

• 1:23:07Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:07Chris Voss?

  And set up there. Like, I think Dubai is a great opportunity.

• 1:23:11Lewis Howes?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:23:12Chris Voss?

  And you're gonna be sitting there like, are you kidding me? Do you have any idea the time zone?

• 1:23:18Lewis Howes?

  I know.

• 1:23:18Chris Voss?

  And how many people I have?

• 1:23:20Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:21Chris Voss?

  But I actually, when we were talking earlier, I asked you about setting up shop in other countries.

• 1:23:26Lewis Howes?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:23:27Chris Voss?

  And your immediate reaction was how hard that was gonna be.

• 1:23:31Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 1:23:32Chris Voss?

  Because in throwing it out there, I wanna get a feel for, is this a layup for you? Is this a slam dunk?

• 1:23:41Lewis Howes?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:23:42Chris Voss?

  Am I, do I think it's a slam dunk and you think it's a three-point shot?

• 1:23:46Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 1:23:46Chris Voss?

  Or it's a half-court shot?

• 1:23:48Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:49Chris Voss?

  Now, I'm teasing this out. Like, I, there are things like that that could be good opportunities for some people. But is your team set up and ready to move for it?

• 1:23:57Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 1:23:58Chris Voss?

  That's really where that, all that comes in. So if somebody has a great opportunity, I gotta know what the journey looks like, my team is set up or it's not.

• 1:24:08Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 1:24:09Chris Voss?

  But I can't jump at that opportunity. And there are a number of places out there that are glittering jewels in the distance.

• 1:24:14Lewis Howes?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:24:15Chris Voss?

  Like Dubai, which I'm thinking seriously about setting up shop there.

• 1:24:20Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 1:24:21Chris Voss?

  But it doesn't work for everybody.

• 1:24:23Lewis Howes?

  Right. Right.

• 1:24:24Chris Voss?

  So I got, I, some, somebody saying to me Dubai's an opportunity, that ain't good enough.

• 1:24:29Lewis Howes?

  Right. I've been there twice. It's, it's actually pretty fascinating what they've built. I mean, it's pretty impressive. But again, you're on the other side of the world, you know, and if you do a lot of business in the US, then it's just a different, you gotta see if that, that could be a bigger benefit over there.

• 1:24:44Chris Voss?

  What's the journey to the opportunity?

• 1:24:46Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:47Chris Voss?

  And what are the obstacles in route?

• 1:24:48Lewis Howes?

  Absolutely.

• 1:24:49Chris Voss?

  And very few people think about that because a great idea looks like a great opportunity and they don't have an appreciation for the landscape on the way.

• 1:24:57Lewis Howes?

  Mm-hmm. Chris, you're the master, master negotiator. I want people to follow you. I want them to get your book. I want them to check you out, blackswanltd.com/newsletter, is that right?

• 1:25:12Chris Voss?

  Slash the dash edge. The newsletter is the edge.

• 1:25:16Lewis Howes?

  Gotcha.

• 1:25:16Chris Voss?

  But the website, the website is a goldmine.

• 1:25:18Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 1:25:19Chris Voss?

  There's a lot of free stuff.

• 1:25:21Lewis Howes?

  So much good stuff there.

• 1:25:22Chris Voss?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:22Lewis Howes?

  I mean, they gotta get your book. You know, if you're watching this or listening, you gotta get your book. That's step one. Go through that.

• 1:25:27Chris Voss?

  Never split the difference.

• 1:25:28Lewis Howes?

  It's incredible. So, I don't know, how many copies have you sold now? You've sold so many. Do you know?

• 1:25:32Chris Voss?

  Worldwide, we're over three million.

• 1:25:34Lewis Howes?

  Three million? It's incredible, man.

• 1:25:37Chris Voss?

  That's the other good thing about it. This works in every country.

• 1:25:39Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 1:25:40Chris Voss?

  Like, I'm in Dubai. Young female, Asian female walks up to me, I don't know till I assess. She tells me she's Chinese. She says, I negotiate with your book all the time. I go, let me get this straight. You're in China, right? She's like, yeah, I'm Chinese. Like, okay, so you're using Never Split the Difference to negotiate with Chinese people in China? And she's like, yeah, just want to make sure.

• 1:26:09Lewis Howes?

  That's cool. Yeah. Three million copies. So if you guys don't have the book yet, get the book. Blackswanltd.com. So many good resources, articles, all this different stuff you got on there. I love all your stuff there.

• 1:26:21Chris Voss?

  Thanks.

• 1:26:23Lewis Howes?

  We've got a couple of previous interviews with you. We'll make sure to link those up. But I think this was a good refresher and some more stories you shared here, which was really cool. Always a pleasure having you on. I've got a question for you. How else can we be of support and service to you today?

• 1:26:39Lewis Howes?

  Besides people getting the newsletter, getting the book, following you on social media?

• 1:26:42Chris Voss?

  You know, what we're trying to do, and you and I talked about this a little bit before, so I'll mention it again. We're trying to slowly back into the space of improving police community, minority community relations. And so neither side realizes how traumatized their counterparts are.

• 1:27:01Chris Voss?

  So, um, the cops, most, many street cops are suffering from traumatic stress.

• 1:27:08Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 1:27:09Chris Voss?

  The communities that they're serving are suffering from worse traumatic stress.

• 1:27:16Chris Voss?

  So it's not surprising that there's problems.

• 1:27:22Chris Voss?

  So what we're trying to do is gently, quietly, figure out ways to increase understanding with the other side. So if you're law enforcement, spend some time in a community where you're not on the job.

• 1:27:41Chris Voss?

  If you're

• 1:27:45Chris Voss?

  in a community that needs cops, but is not getting along with them, whatever you could do to give a cop a break, to take it a little bit easier on them, to not honk at them when they're blocking traffic, to realize, you know, they're not intentionally trying to screw up my day. We're just gently trying to get into the space, ever so gently, because these are two communities that need each other.

• 1:28:13Lewis Howes?

  Yeah. How are you guys doing that? Or how come people support that?

• 1:28:18Chris Voss?

  One of our trainers, Troy Smith, he's got an organization called Walk a Mile in My Shoes. And he's developing relationships between the police in disadvantaged communities, which is really euphemism for black. By and large, the communities that struggle the most on a regular basis, for whatever reasons, there's no shortage of blame across the board. Nobody is any, no group is more, is without sin. And, but, but what Troy's doing with Walk a Mile in My Shoes is making a difference.

• 1:28:54Lewis Howes?

  That's cool. Okay. Where can they check that out or learn more?

• 1:28:59Lewis Howes?

  They Google Walk a Mile in My Shoes, they'll probably find it, or?

• 1:29:01Chris Voss?

  Yeah, yeah. He should, I think they've got it set up on, on his website. But, or, or email us.

• 1:29:09Lewis Howes?

  Okay.

• 1:29:10Chris Voss?

  Email [email protected]. Say you want to be supportive of Walk a Mile in My Shoes.

• 1:29:15Lewis Howes?

  Nice.

• 1:29:16Chris Voss?

  And we'll turn you on to them.

• 1:29:17Lewis Howes?

  Okay, cool. I want to acknowledge you, Chris, for your constant, you're constantly showing up and giving people tools, strategies, resources to become better communicators, to become better negotiators in ethical win-win situations, not manipulative situations. For giving people strategies to have a more enriched life.

• 1:29:39Chris Voss?

  Yeah.

• 1:29:39Lewis Howes?

  And it's really cool that you continue to show up this way. So, appreciate you for, for all that you're doing and the consistent effort you add to the world. I've asked you this question before, but I'll see if it's different. Three truths question. So it's imagine it's your last day on earth and you've accomplished everything you want, but for whatever reason, every reason, you gotta take all of your work with you. So no one has access to your books or your messages or this interview, it's gone. But you get to leave behind three lessons to the world. And this is all we would have of your wisdom, your life experience that you would share behind. What would be those three truths for you?

• 1:30:15Chris Voss?

  You know, before you disagree with anybody, see if you can lay out what their position is. How they see it. You're free to disagree all, all you want, but you gotta lay out, before I disagree, as there's, I can tell, this is how you feel about this. And lay it out in a way that they would say, that's right.

• 1:30:35Lewis Howes?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:30:35Chris Voss?

  Then you can disagree all you want.

• 1:30:36Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:30:37Chris Voss?

  Like, if people would just do that, the amount of stress and anxiety in the world would decrease.

• 1:30:42Lewis Howes?

  Cause they would feel seen and heard and understood.

• 1:30:44Chris Voss?

  Right.

• 1:30:44Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:30:45Chris Voss?

  Yeah.

• 1:30:46Lewis Howes?

  Okay.

• 1:30:46Chris Voss?

  That's one.

• 1:30:47Lewis Howes?

  That's one.

• 1:30:48Chris Voss?

  And how many more do I gotta do?

• 1:30:49Lewis Howes?

  Two more.

• 1:30:52Chris Voss?

  Don't quit. Cause your competition's going to.

• 1:30:55Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 1:30:57Chris Voss?

  You know, the, uh, the McDonald's movie, The Founder. You know, depending upon how you, how, uh, what you thought of that movie, Michael Keaton in that role. You know, early on, he's listening to a motivational speaker, you know, persistence, persistence, persistence. And then after he's a business success, he's giving the same speech.

• 1:31:18Lewis Howes?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:31:19Chris Voss?

  Like, and it's a cliche, you know, to be persistent. But the reality is your competition's gonna quit. Like, like, the Black Swan team, we're not gonna quit.

• 1:31:30Lewis Howes?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:31:32Chris Voss?

  And we're not in a hurry. But by and large...

• 1:31:38Chris Voss?

  All of our competition in our space is slowly falling by the wayside. Cause they're gonna quit. They're gonna stop learning, they're gonna lay back on their laurels. And that's just not our competition, like. Your competition's gonna quit. So all you gotta do, Molly Bloom says you never lose, if you don't quit, you can't lose. Your competition's gonna quit. If you just don't give up.

• 1:32:07Lewis Howes?

  Keep showing up.

• 1:32:07Chris Voss?

  All you gotta do, you know, there is no finish line. Looking at all the different ways that you hear from other directions. Like, there's no finish line, like, when am I gonna be done?

• 1:32:18Chris Voss?

  Your competition's gonna quit. So if you don't quit. You're going to ask outlast the people that you're competing against. And then finally, just learn, just learn slowly. There's a phrase out there, you know, the only sustainable competitive advantage is to learn faster than your competition. Don't pressure yourself to learn fast. Cause if you don't quit. And you just learn slowly.

• 1:32:44Chris Voss?

  Then that's, those two things are gonna, are gonna build, but if you pressure yourself to learn fast. Like, you have a bad day.

• 1:32:52Chris Voss?

  Somebody takes you out and you have a great night out, like, you know, I'm old enough these days. Like, I can drink as much as I used to, but it takes me two days to get over it instead of a half a day. But if I, if I got heavy pressure on myself to learn a lot every day. And I lose a day, now I'm kicking myself, cause I feel like I lost a lot. But if I only wanna learn a little bit each day. And I got a day where I'm in the tank and I didn't do any good, and I didn't get out of bed, or I didn't eat right. Like, I haven't lost a lot, I can recover from a lost day very easily. If I don't pressure myself. For each day to be big. So just, just learn just a little bit each day. And don't quit. And you're, you're gonna be, you're gonna, you're gonna get to meet interesting, cool people like Lewis Howes.

• 1:33:37Lewis Howes?

  There you go, there you go, I love it.

• 1:33:40Lewis Howes?

  Final question, what's your definition of greatness?

• 1:33:43Chris Voss?

  For a man to be a gentleman. And I realize that, you know, some people want to say these are chauvinistic terms. Equivalent term for a woman would be the lady. But somebody close to me once pointed out the highest compliment you could ever pay a man is refer to him as a gentleman. You know, so integrity, polite, hardworking, look out for other people.

• 1:34:05Chris Voss?

  You know, do this, you know, I stand when a woman walks in a room. I pull out a chair. My girlfriend cannot get into a vehicle that I don't open a door for. You know, that to me, to be a gentleman is to be a success. And there's an equivalent term, whatever that term might be, regardless of your gender or your gender orientation, whatever it is to be a good human being, and whatever that label is, that doesn't restrict you, but you know, calls you to be your highest self.

• 1:34:34Lewis Howes?

  Chris, appreciate it, man. Thank you, brother. Appreciate it. Thank you so much for listening. I hope you enjoyed today's episode and it inspired you on your journey towards greatness. Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a full rundown of today's show with all the important links. And also make sure to share this with a friend and subscribe over on Apple Podcasts as well. I really love hearing feedback from you guys, so share a review over on Apple and let me know what part of this episode resonated with you the most. And if no one's told you lately, I want to remind you that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter. And now it's time to go out there and do something great.