148: What Is Avoidant Attachment and How It Shows Up in Dating and Relationships?

Unlock the secrets to building healthy relationships with avoidant partners in this episode of The Sabrina Zohar Show. Sabrina breaks down the realities of dating someone with avoidant attachment, debunks common myths, and shares practical tools to foster genuine connection. Whether you’re struggling to understand an avoidant partner or want to improve your own relationship skills, this video offers expert advice and actionable steps for deeper intimacy and trust. What you’ll learn: - What avoidant attachment really means in dating - Signs you’re dating someone with avoidant tendencies - Myths vs. facts about avoidant attachment styles - Tools and strategies to build real connection - How to communicate and set boundaries effectively Stuck After the Podcast? Master Implementation in 8 Weeks with Sabrina's Foundation Course HERE! If you've ever felt like you're too much, not enough, or always chasing validation in dating or relationships, the Self Love Course gives you the tools to rebuild your worth from the inside out HERE! Do you feel like your emotions run the show and react in ways you can’t control? Join the Nervous System 101: Navigating the Unknowns In Early Dating from Sabrina and Masha Kay HERE! Struggling with a breakup? Join the Make It Make Sense: Getting Through a Breakup course from Sabrina and Britt Frank HERE! Get Ad free HERE! Want to work with Sabrina? HERE! Get merch for The Sabrina Zohar Show HERE! Don't forget to follow Sabrina and The Sabrina Zohar Show on Instagram and Sabrina on TikTok! Video now available on YOUTUBE! Disclaimer: The Sabrina Zohar Show, formerly known as Do The Work, is not affiliated with A. Z & associates LLC in any capacity. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

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• 0:57Sabrina Zohar?

  Hello, hello, hello, and welcome to another episode of the Sabrina Zohar Show. My name is Sabrina Zohar and I am your host. Guys, welcome to the first episode in our new studio. Holy smokes. Now, this isn't it, right? We're not fully done, but I wanted to show you a little sneak peek while we still continue. And honestly, I needed to get content out, so here we are. I'm so excited to be here with you guys. Today, we are starting one of four of the series, and we are going to talk about avoidant attachment. It's been on the radar and it's been on there, so today is the day. Guys, as always, thank you so much for rating and reviewing the show. Thank you for all the kind words to everybody that likes to leave mean comments. Thank you so much for showing us where the trauma and the healing needs to begin, and we so appreciate your projection.

• 1:40Sabrina Zohar?

  But for everybody that leaves kind, loving, encouraging words, even if you don't agree with somebody, thank you. I fucking appreciate you. Thank you for letting me show up as me and you guys showing up as you, because the point of this entire community that I'm building is safety and trust together, and that also means we accept each other for who we are, cursing, fast speaking, and all. So guys, as always, if you need anything, check out, all the courses are available. We've got the foundation, the nervous system, the breakup, and the self-love course. You can work one-on-one with me, ask a question, or just fucking Listen to the podcast, whatever you need, we're here for you guys. All right. Without further ado, let's get right on into it, shall we? Guys, welcome to Set 2.0. I'm really grateful. As some of you guys know too, I had oral surgery.

• 2:22Sabrina Zohar?

  I had surgery on my mouth very unexpectedly, so today you won't be seeing me be as expressive, but I'm doing my goddamn best because it, what really matters to me is showing up for you guys and being here no matter what. Even though I'm at a limited capacity, I am still fucking here. And I'm just really grateful. I'm really grateful to have this incredible set. We're getting new furniture, so we're kind of in the midst of doing that right now, and I'm super stoked, but I'm really excited to be able to elevate, to bring you guys different content, to bring you guys deeper into the work, and so that we can evolve the conversation. I feel like it just gets so redundant every fucking time. It's like, what are the episodes that do well are all the same? And I feel like we need to just expand every aspect. So, and so I wanted to start this four-part series. Today, we're doing avoidant, it'll be anxious next week, then we're gonna go to disorganize,

• 3:06Sabrina Zohar?

  and then we'll end with secure. That way, we can have a fun little summertime series that is in the midst of it, because I know half of us aren't even listening to these episodes, and if you are, fuck yeah, we're in this together. So, the reason I wanted to start with avoidant is because, the obvious one, I love my anxious folks, don't get me wrong, my babies, I am here for you all, but I am seeing just so much misinformation, and like, truth be told, a lot of it, even the questions. So like, if you guys don't follow along on Insta, the Sabrina Zohar Show, I do question boxes before the episodes, because I really want to make sure that I am tailoring the episodes to help you with the pain points that you guys are going through, not just like throwing a bunch of random shit at you. And the amount of just wild misinformation, like I have a myth-busting block that we're gonna do,

• 3:47Sabrina Zohar?

  and got all my handy-dandy notes, because, and I get it, and like, let me also preface and start with this. I'm not saying anybody that ingests that content is a bad person, and I'm not saying anybody that makes that content is a bad person, but I see the same side of the internet that you guys do. I see the, this is why all avoidants do that. It's black and white thinking. It's every single person is the same, and outside of breathing, shitting, and taking, like, eating, right? And even that, not everybody is the same. Not everybody has the same lived experiences. And I listen to a lot of that content of how bad the avoidant is, and how you want to run from them, and they're just that terrible, they're just the worst fucking people. And until I started dating people that were more avoidant and realizing like, they're really great humans, it's just that this person's going through their own shit

• 4:31Sabrina Zohar?

  and their own lived experience, because there's a difference between somebody being a blatant fucking asshole, somebody being wildly emotionally unavailable, whether it doesn't matter your attachment style, and somebody who is avoidant personality disorder versus attachment, avoidant attachment. And there's a difference between someone who's just a dick, right? Like, there's all of those things. And so today, I really wanted us to kind of debunk what really happens, because a good portion of what you guys wrote in was like, they came on really strong, then they pulled away. Or, why did they tell me they care and then they went silent? Or, why did they end it out of nowhere and just abrupt? And I think what we're seeing is, as if like, avoidance are just the worst. They're just so fucking mean and they're so cold. And it's like, no, what it actually is, is like, that's their wiring for survival. That's them, same, in the same vein that

• 5:15Sabrina Zohar?

  the anxious person seeks external validation, starts to go outward, needs that reassurance from the external world, the avoidant goes inwards. And so even off the bat, when we think of the different attachment styles, a secure partner is a high sense of self and a high sense of others. A disorganized, low sense of self and low sense of others. That's that amalgamation. And again, if you're telling me, like, a lot of people wrote in being like, after my last ex, I became avoidant. It's like, no, your nervous system went dorsal and shutting down. You're not avoidant. That is not how attachment styles work. The way that attachment styles are even formed is through, how did your parents attune to your needs growing up? It's not that, oh, a partner when I was 25 was an asshole and now I'm anxiously attached. It's like, no. Or now I'm avoidant. It's

• 5:58Sabrina Zohar?

  like, no, no, no, that shit that you learn a lot earlier in life. It's not about blaming your parents. It's not about they're such bad people. I mean, even Masha is such a good friend of mine, we talk about this all the time, and she's like, I'm more avoidant. I have two amazing fucking parents. But she's like, my mom worked a lot and my, like, I learned growing up, like, in order to kind of seek their validation or approval or get them to see me. She's like, I had to really perform. I had to work hard. I had to get them to see me. That perfectionism. That doesn't mean her parents are bad, but that does mean, oh, they didn't attune to her needs in the ways that she needed. And now she's a mama and she's attuning differently to her daughter. And we're seeing how even just the way that she has her confidence, the way that she'll do things. Another one of my friends- The same, her, both of the parents are so involved in her life. It's so beautiful. And you can tell, you can see like she'll fall and be like whoopsie and get up and keep going.

• 6:41Sabrina Zohar?

  Whereas some other kids might fall and go really inwards and start to attack themselves. And others would cry and scream and have a temper tantrum because they want their parents to come and get them. Again, nobody is saying that they're good or bad. I just so happen to have an asshole of a father. And even that, like he sometimes can be a dick and sometimes he can be lovely. Hello inconsistency. And so I wanted to just take a second. Oh, then we'll keep going. Welcome to the ADHD brain. I go off on tangents. So then we have the avoidant, low sense of others, high sense of self, which is why the avoidant looks at this saying, I can only trust myself. I don't trust other people because they have a low view of others because maybe they've been disappointed. They've been let down, right? Whatever. And then the anxious person, low sense of self, high sense of others.

• 7:20Sabrina Zohar?

  That's why the anxious person seeks external validation and constantly is trying to get the other person to come closer to them. So I wanted to unpack different variables and we're going to go, like I said, we have questions that you guys asked. I think the first thing that we need to look at is what is avoidant attachment? Now, if we're going to look at the definition, the avoidant attachment develops in environments where emotional expression was dismissed, punished or ignored. And so the message early on with that is that you're safer when you don't need anybody. And I see that even like we've got me, my brother and my sister, and my sister is pretty avoidant. I love her. I do. I love her to the moon and back. She doesn't know how to process her emotions. She shuts down. I mean, she's learning that now, right? She's done a ton of work on herself and she's coming back online.

• 8:00Sabrina Zohar?

  But for years, we would always say like, I could see it in her eyes. I'm like, you could see the tears welling up and she'll shut the fuck down. Because growing up, the messaging she received was when I need people, they let me down. When I come closer to people, they disappoint me. And it's the same with Ryan. Like I see that and it's again, it's not because his parents are bad people at all, but he is more avoidant because he had one caregiver that was an asshole, his father. And then he had his mom, who is a lovely and amazing woman. She just isn't as emotionally expressive. She just is a little bit more inward. Where do you think he learned it from? And he learned early on, especially when you have trauma early on, and I'm not going to out his shit, but like just the stuff he'll talk openly about. Is that he learned it's not safe. He would get hit if he expressed an emotion. So in his world, it was fuck it. Why do I have these? It's not, I don't.

• 8:43Sabrina Zohar?

  Get to connect with people because when I have a need, when I cry, when I scream, when I have something, I get punished, I get ignored, I get left. So then I don't need anybody. I can only rely on myself. Does that make them a bad person? No. And it's the same with the anxious person. They were never taught how to regulate their emotional needs and sit with themselves. So they constantly seek external. I need other people to tell me I'm safe and I'm okay because I never learned what it feels like to be safe in my body. So as an adult for the avoidant person, closeness means equals a threat. Independence equals safety. And that's why they feel, because they oftentimes, the avoidant person feels that when they get close to you, they're going to lose their independence, they're going to lose everything. Because at some point along the lines, maybe they did. Avoidance are not cold hearted. Avoidance are honestly, it's mostly the time that they're emotionally overwhelmed. They're emotionally overwhelmed and under resourced. They don't

• 9:28Sabrina Zohar?

  know how to tap in. When intimacy grows, their nervous system goes up. This is danger. And not connection. It doesn't be feel safe for them. Now, and I know a lot of people would be like, but why don't they do anything about it? And it's like, because most of them don't even realize it. They're not consciously, like, that's what I'm trying to say. The difference between a narcissist and an avoidant person, narcissist, intent. Their intention is to hurt you. Their intention is to manipulate you. Their intention is to do something. An avoidant person, their intention is not to hurt you. Their intention is not to, they're trying to survive. And they're trying to survive the connection the only way they know, by shutting down. Avoidance want love. They do. They just don't know how to stay in it and feel what it feels like to be real. And I even see, again, I see that with Ryan. I love my partner, but he struggles with that. He'll sometimes

• 10:11Sabrina Zohar?

  shut down and he'll even, I even tell him, I'm like, it's funny. Your biggest fear, at least when I talk to him, he's like, I'm scared you're gonna leave me. I'm scared you're gonna abandon me. And I'm like, it's so funny. That's also my fear. But at the same time, as the anxious person, I don't actually know anymore if it's that I'm gonna be abandoned. I think for me, as my too much, not enough, I'm scared that who I actually am will push people away. But I'm also scared that who I actually am isn't the problem. That there's nothing wrong with me. And that's really scary. That's why Britt Frank always says, the love addict's biggest fear isn't being abandoned, it's intimacy. That's why you go from person to person to person. That's why I become obsessed with people one after another. It's because it's not about the actual connection. It's that they don't want somebody to really see them. That's why they go from person to person.

• 10:51Speaker 00

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• 11:20Sabrina Zohar?

  And so let's talk about some common patterns that we see with avoidance in dating. And now let me preface. If I hear one more fucking person say, "My avoidant," they are not a goddamn Tamagotchi. This is not a fucking Furby. This is a human being with their own lived experience. First of all, my avoidant means that you own them. You don't own this person. Imagine somebody come up and saying, "My anxious." I'd fucking beat them. What do you mean, "my anxious"? I'm way more of a person than that. The second thing is completely omits any personal accountability. "My avoidant"? What is your, what's your part? What's your part in also choosing them? Because you're, you're making it seem like they're just automatically yours. So we need to get rid of that verbiage. They're not your anything. This is another person who is having their own lived experience, just like you're having yours. And you're two adults that are in a relationship or situationship or a courtship or some kind

• 12:05Sabrina Zohar?

  of dating experience. So I just wanted to get that out of the way. It drives me fucking insane when I hear people say, "My avoidant this." And it's like, when did you find ownership over this human being? And the other reality is, stop listening to the clickbait you see on the internet about avoidance. They are not all bad people. Maybe the people you're fucking dating are just assholes because you don't know how to be discerning, you don't know how to set boundaries, and you don't know how to say no when you want to say yes. But don't blame the fucking attachment style. Because that's like me saying, "Well, all anxious folks are really needy and really annoying and really obnoxious. Why am I identifying an entire group of people just because a couple of bad apples?" Just wanted to clarify that. Because I get it. I used to be her of like, "Fuck avoidance and I'm gonna, never gonna date them again." And then I realized like, there's a lot of people that are avoidant. And it doesn't make them bad people. Here's the caveat. You don't have to date them though.

• 12:50Sabrina Zohar?

  And that's the one thing I want to just talk about. You don't have to date an avoidant attachment. You don't have to date anybody. You don't have to do anything you don't want to do. But look how you do get a choice. Look how you get to make those choices. Right? If they wanted to, they would. And what about you? If we're going on, if they wanted to, they would. And what about your choices? What about your want? Then why the fuck are you dating people that don't satisfy your needs? Well, then you must not want it bad enough, then. You know, I'm always going to give you the other side of the coin. Okay, so the first thing that we'll see with a lot of avoidant attachers is they'll come on really strong. They'll text a ton, they'll talk about the future, they make you feel really chosen, until all of a sudden they don't. And typically speaking, what happens is when emotional closeness starts to happen and it increases, they start to pull away. They go quiet, they disappear after intimacy, right?

• 13:33Sabrina Zohar?

  After that, after vulnerability, after a great weekend away. I hear this all the time of like, I don't get it. We had this incredible weekend, we got so close and I came back and then they shut me out. And it's like, yes, that's when they vanish. And they try to maintain very like surface relationships because it gives them space. That's why for also a lot of avoidance people and anxious people, that's why that dynamic long distance works because it's a fantasy. You constantly get to create this new narrative of who they are, but then you don't really have that closeness. And that's why you'll start to see the pull away. Doesn't mean that you did anything. It doesn't mean that there's anything wrong with you. It doesn't mean that they, no, no, no. The pull away is because they are overwhelmed and they are triggered. The same way with when you get triggered and overwhelmed, you try to go closer. Do you see what I mean by there is no good or bad, right or wrong?

• 14:16Sabrina Zohar?

  It's two different ways of people connecting or really disconnecting, rather. So someone had asked in the audience, why do they ghost after intimacy? Their system got flooded. That it, they shut down. And for some people, listen, are there the people out there in the world that are just using you to hook up? Of course, of course. I don't care what the attachment style is. I was a fucking poster child for anxious attachment and I still would get my rocks off with people because I was a girl with needs. I wasn't using them, but I was enjoying my night and I didn't have any intentions of more. But I slept with my partner on the first date. Me and Ryan fucked on the first date and here we are. And the reason that it worked, it had nothing to do with our attachment styles. It's because both of us were really growth minded and really eager to have a relationship. We just realized that when he gets triggered, he shuts down. And when I get triggered, I go outwards and I need the reassurance. That's what my point is.

• 15:00Sabrina Zohar?

  Not everybody that's avoidant doesn't want a relationship. Not everybody that's avoidant is an asshole. Maybe those are just the people that you're dating. Because how are you showing up too? Again, it's no one's fault, but it's about accountability of. What's in your control? So then another, why do they change after a month? Because they hit their limit for emotional availability and vulnerability. That's it. They hit their upper threshold. And part of doing a lot of the work is that, you know, Scott, Dr. Scott and Lyons and I were talking about this. That when we're talking about that intimacy threshold, for some people, they reach it. They can't go any beyond, this is all I can offer you. That doesn't mean that they're bad people. That doesn't mean that they don't necessarily want more. They don't have more to give you. That's like asking a blind man to see. Okay, well, but they can't. So why are you getting upset with them that the fact that they can't see your value and your worth? But yet you're getting upset with somebody that doesn't have the bandwidth to show up in the ways that you need.

• 15:45Sabrina Zohar?

  But what are your choices? Your choices are you can also walk away. And I get this all the time when people write in about my avoidant. And it's like you act as if you're sitting away locked in a castle and you can't get out unless this person comes and lets you free. How familiar does this person feel? And I'll be honest with you, Ryan and I have had big conversations about his avoidance. We have recently even. And the reason being, not because there's anything wrong with him, but because I've had to be honest of like, I've grown tremendously. I've really come a long way in my growth. I still have so much more to go, but I'm really proud of who I've become and where I'm at. And I didn't feel like he was growing as much. And he was retreating back and he was going inwards. That doesn't mean that there's anything wrong with either of us. That was us just being really realistic in the conversation of like, hey, what are we doing here? Have we peaked? Are you still interested in growing? Because if this is how much you're going to let me in, it's not going to work. And he was like, you're fucking right.

• 16:29Sabrina Zohar?

  He was like, I do continue to shut down. I go back into my old methods. His OCD starts to flare up. And so now he's sought, he's working with Sheila, who's my embodiment coach. And he's working with, if anybody wants to work with her, you guys, everything is a link in bio and you can. She's fucking amazing and does parts work and she is phenomenal and she gets me to cry every time. But he's now seeking a different therapist because he knows, he was like, I've reached my upper threshold. And the difference being is that if you were another person, he could say, I don't want to do that. I don't have any desire to do that. I don't want to do any more work on myself, like a lot of people. But I didn't change him. I didn't force him. I didn't give him an ultimatum. I told him what it is that I needed. And he loves me in this relationship and he wants to make it work and have the future that we've talked about. And so he's going to do his part and I'm going to do mine. And mine is also getting really real about what I want and need.

• 17:12Sabrina Zohar?

  Being clear about what my genuine needs are and what my wants are. Being really cognizant and understanding that's going to take him time, that of people with avoidance or anxiety, it's going to take. Take you fucking years. And that's another thing that when people will write in and say, you know, my avoidant, if they come back, how can I change the dynamic? It's like, you don't get to do that. It's not your job to change the dynamic. That's also, what are they doing with the work that they've done? How are they showing up? Because if nothing changes, then nothing changes. And if they've just gone off, sown their oats and comes back and nothing is done, then what the fuck are we doing? So, okay, let's see. Do they enjoy the anxious person chasing? No, no, they don't. But they do feel safer when they're not the ones that are being emotionally exposed. That's why a lot of avoidant people would be therapists. Because then they don't have to be vulnerable. They can just ask you a bunch of questions.

• 17:56Sabrina Zohar?

  And so that's why the anxious avoidant trap, it's not that they don't want to be chased. It's not that they want that. They just like that you're the one that's emotionally exposed. It makes them feel safer. Again, that doesn't mean that it's out of malice. It's the same as the anxious person chasing. Oh, well, because they don't want to be forgotten, so it feels safer for them to go and do the work and do the outward. Don't worry, we're gonna get to the anxious attachment episode. But the reason I'm bringing this up is because the one thing I hear all the fucking time and it literally drives me insane, why, just because I'm anxious, why do I have to be the one that does the work? Why do I have to be the one that does it? Why am I? And it's like, yeah, I know, a lot of people are like, you're a cunt when you mock people. No, I'm fucking real. I'm honest, because look how stupid it sounds when we say shit like that. And I say that with love. And if you're gonna be a snowflake and be like, you're a mean girl, like somebody commented, that's okay? I'm not here to coddle you.

• 18:39Sabrina Zohar?

  I'm here to be honest and direct with you because I think less people are fucking doing that. Not enough people are being direct and real and saying, hey, you're being full of shit. You're bullshitting yourself. You're not being honest and authentic with what it is that you want and need. And you're not showing up for you in the ways that you want other people to fucking show up for you. So, yeah, it does sound really silly when we say things like, like, why do I have to be the one that does the work? Both of you should be. It's not about the anxious person. I always had to give the space and they don't have to do anything. No, that's your task in this, though. Your part is giving the person the space. Their part is then communicating when the space is done and coming back closer to you. That's my point. It's not one person doing all the work. And if it is, then stop dating this person.

• 19:18Speaker 00

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• 19:47Sabrina Zohar?

  Okay, myth number one. If they ghosted you, it wasn't real. No, some avoidants ghost because it was real. That's what made it terrifying, that it was really real. It was becoming heavier. It was becoming more involved. And again, there's a difference between, oh, I text this person a thousand times, that's why they ghosted. Oh, okay, that's my direct impact to them. Now, I'm not saying that like, it's cool that they ghosted, but like, for some folks, I get it. Like, I've seen it sometimes where you're like, oh, they've told you that they're not interested and you just keep going. But other than that, like, if you're looking, going, my side of the street is clean, I'm really proud of how I showed up. Well, then, no, you didn't. They ghosted because it became real and their nervous system went, this isn't safe. That's why they'll come back later. That's why they always come back isn't a fucking flex. Because if somebody's gonna ghost me, you better believe I'm closing that door. I'm not letting them leave it open. You get choices.

• 20:31Sabrina Zohar?

  Okay, avoidance or narcissists. Nope. Avoidant detachment and narcissism is not the same. Avoidants are usually self-protective. Yes, 100%, but they're not manipulative. Narcissists lack empathy. Avoidants feel shame. So you see how it's a difference? They're not the same. Avoidants, or narcissists, are avoidant. Avoidants are not all narcissists. And not to mention, that is a fucking overly-used term, and I think we all know that I'm right about that. I don't always need to be right, but about that, I know I am. They'll always come back. No, not always. They don't. And not often. And when they do, right? And when they do come back? That's because their nervous system feels calm, not because they're ready for your connection. And that's a harsh reality. Well, that's why I say, they always come back. No, they don't. The people that do is because they went and regulated. That doesn't mean you need to let them back. That doesn't mean you need to allow them back into your life.

• 21:16Sabrina Zohar?

  That means that you get to make a choice. You're too much. No, avoidance get overwhelmed by healthy and stable. They feel like that's really overwhelming. It's not about you being too much, it's about their tolerance being too low. That's kind of what I'm trying to explain is that and like again, there's a difference between you're too much being like, well, I text them 30 times in an hour and they didn't answer. It's like, okay, you're not too much. The behavior you're exhibiting can feel like it's too much or it's too overwhelming. You see why we need to stop self identifying? I'm not too much, right? Even for me, to some people, they might say, you need to do all of these things. And it's like, or you need to find people that you align with more and I'll continue to find the people that I align with more because I've got a pretty rockin', fucking community of people that love me for who I am. So if you don't, good

• 21:59Sabrina Zohar?

  luck, Godspeed. Now get the fuck out. That is my uh uh. So you ain't too much. You're just dating people that don't have the bandwidth to show up in the ways that you need, especially if you're like, all I did was ask for an extra day a week of seeing this person and they made a whole thing. You're going to feel too much because your core beliefs are anytime you've had a need, you had a caregiver that maybe shamed you or put you down. And so then you start to automatically go, oh, there's something wrong with me. But that doesn't mean you're actually too much because what are the facts to back that up? And the facts can't be, well, the person I dated before told me I'm too much. And again, what's their emotional bandwidth? How are they showing up? I'll never forget, I had a client write in and she said, I talked to my roommate and he told me that if I sell the guy that I'm dating, that I like him, that I'm going to be too much and he's going to walk away.

• 22:41Sabrina Zohar?

  And I'm scared. And I said, okay, that's valid. Then I ask you, your roommate, does he have a healthy and secure relationship? Is this somebody that you feel you'd be like really in line with and taking their advice? She goes, oh, God, no. He is super toxic, super unhealthy, really avoidant, can't sit with any emotions. I said, so that's why he said it's too much. I said, do you notice how he's projecting his discomfort with the emotions onto you? That's what I mean by you're not too much, babe. Go fucking take up that space. They don't care. Oh, no, they care quite deeply. They don't know how to tolerate vulnerability long enough to stay close, though. That's what I'm trying to explain is like, there's a difference. Again, an avoidant attacher, somebody that is how their parents attuned to them. That means that like Ryan can be normal day to day, but when he gets triggered, when something happens, it's same with me. I'm not always

• 23:26Sabrina Zohar?

  just anxious. I'm not running around like a fucking maniac all day screaming, crying. You know what I mean? When I get triggered, my baseline is anxiety. And that's what I'm saying because. I wanted to talk about the truth of avoidant attachment versus avoidant personality disorder. Avoidant attachment is a relational pattern. That's what I'm trying to explain is that it's just, it really shows up when you're triggered, but that doesn't mean that every day to day you just like can't tap into your emotions. Avoidant personality disorder is a clinical diagnosis. So I'm going to read you directly. Avoidant personality disorder includes extreme fear of rejection, isolation and social inhibition. People with avoidant attachment may want connection but struggle with vulnerability, not social engagement as a whole.

• 24:12Sabrina Zohar?

  That's what I'm trying to explain the difference. This distinction matters. Avoidant attachment is common and can change with support and awareness. Avoidant personality disorder often requires deeper clinical intervention. I had that. I had the guy that I dated before Ryan. That was a avoidant personality disorder. He didn't get deep at all ever. Everything was shallow. Everything was surface, even conver- there was no depth. It was not a fear-based trigger. This was just who this guy was because he had so much shit, he didn't want to deal with it. Good luck, Godspeed. And so I wanted to change. There's a difference. That's what I'm saying. Like we all have friends that you're like, wow, they don't connect with anybody. They don't get deep with anybody. It's like, that's because that's a personality disorder, not an attachment style that you can heal through. Ryan and I are both in therapy actively working on that in our relationship. And here we are.

• 24:57Sabrina Zohar?

  So yeah, you can absolutely have a relationship with an avoidant who is growth minded. It's the same as you can absolutely have a relationship with someone anxious who's growth minded. Otherwise it's going to be the same shit. That stuff's going to trail you in your relationship. You're going to find somebody that finds a fucking issue with everything. That's why I'm saying that anxiety doesn't go away just because you have a boyfriend. It's a Band-Aid, but then you're fucking gushing all over the floor and wondering why you're not feeling better. All right. Another myth. If they didn't care, they wouldn't have treated me that way. Oh, no, no. Avoidance can care and still hurt you quite deeply. And that's like the hardest part is that they may have felt something really real and they weren't regulated enough to show up in it. It doesn't mean that the relationship would fake. It just meant that they weren't safe. Doesn't mean that you weren't safe, but they weren't safe. You can have a really great connection, but that doesn't mean that that person feels comfortable.

• 25:41Sabrina Zohar?

  And I know this is hard and I think sometimes this is really tough for a lot of people to hear because people are like, how do I create a safe space? It's like, you don't- Don't judge them. You don't put them down. How do I create a safe space for Ryan? I tell him, hey, I'm feeling really disconnected from you. And my goal is that I want to come closer to you, not further. So I'd love to hear what you're going through. And sometimes he'll talk and then I'll share and say, okay, can I tell you how that's impacting me? Can I ask you how that impacted you? How did that make you feel? Like, I get curious about his experience. And if he tells me something, I don't scream at him. I don't get mad at him. I don't yell at him. But think about all the people that are like, you know, my avoidant did this. And it's like, if you're already owning that my avoidant, da, da, da, da, da. And then what you're telling me is that you're disconnected from yourself. So how are you even connecting with this person? Let me ask you a question. Y'all motherfuckers, y'all know so much about this person's attachment cell.

• 26:26Sabrina Zohar?

  You know so much that they're avoidant, that they shut down, that they do this, that they do this, that they do this. But yet, you don't know anything about how it's making you feel. You just know you don't like it. But you're so hyper-focused on them. And yet, we wonder why I say anxious people are also emotionally unavailable. How do you want somebody avoidant who cannot even sit with their own emotions to sit with yours? And then for my anxious folk, how do you want someone who's not even willing to get look at themselves, be able to be in a relationship that you're able to look at the other person? That's what I'm saying. You're so focused on everybody in the external, but we're not sitting with it. And this isn't, again, this isn't to bash anybody. This is to call awareness to what is actually happening. All right, let's do one more myth. They discarded me like I meant nothing. Sometimes avoidance do tis connect in a way that does feel brutal. But that often is because they feel grief.

• 27:11Sabrina Zohar?

  They feel remorse. They feel empathy would dysregulate them even more. And so that's why they feel so disconnected. And that's why they can discard. So they emotionally numb out. But that's not yours to carry, baby. You don't need to take that discard as proof that you're not lovable. It's proof that they weren't equipped to stay in this connection. I'm gonna leave you on that one. That the avoidant discard is that they numb out, and that's not your fault to carry. And that their discard isn't proof that you're not lovable. It's the proof that they weren't equipped enough to stay connected to you. This is not about, no, nothing is my fault. Nothing is my problem. But I am also gonna take your word on it that you are showing up in a more secure way. But if you're not, and that's okay. If you're showing up super anxious, you can't be shocked that you're constantly gonna trigger people

• 27:56Sabrina Zohar?

  that don't know how to handle other people. When you're going fucking bananas, asking this person, why haven't they text you? Why aren't you calling me? I'm crying and I'm doing this and you don't make. And I get it. And I've had clients that'll show up and they're like, dude, I see it. I can feel I nothing makes me feel nothing is ever enough. And it's like, I get that. And none of this is about making excuses. It's about giving language to the chaos. It's about understanding. Yeah, that there are some avoidance that will ghost you and act like nothing happened. That is real. But we have to separate the behavior from the biology if we want to stop making it about our fucking worth.

• 28:30Speaker 00

  Life is all about making decisions. Sometimes you make questionable ones, like buying a new TV that's too big for the wall because the electronics store employee was a little too good at their job. Then sometimes you make great ones, like protecting your home and auto with progressive. You get customized coverage options so you can be sure you have the right coverage. Get your quote today at progressive.com. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company affiliates and other insurers not available in all states.

• 29:00Sabrina Zohar?

  Okay, can they change? Yeah, they can change, but if they have the true desire to change. And this is where want becomes really muddy because Ryan, for years, didn't necessarily want to. And it wasn't about just his desire to not change. It was that he didn't have the bandwidth. He didn't have the resources. He didn't know what to do, even though he went to school for psychology. And for a lot of avoidance, they don't even, half of them don't even fucking know. They just know this feels uncomfortable. I don't like it. I'm going to remove myself. Okay. And they can move towards anybody that's listening. If you're avoidant, the attached, you can absolutely move towards secure, but it requires emotional discomfort. And that's a very hard reality. Just naming it like, I am avoidant. Same with, I am anxious. That's not enough. And not enough. You gotta learn how to co-regulate. You gotta learn to sit with emotional risk, something that feels really uncomfortable. Fucking sit with it. Same with my anxious folk.

• 29:44Sabrina Zohar?

  We have to rewrite the belief that closeness equals danger. We gotta work on the nervous system stuff. If you're avoidant, I want you to ask yourself, when do I emotionally exit? Is it that I notice that when this person comes to me with something that bothers them, oh, that feels really overwhelming, start to pick up on the pattern? Can I stay present 10 seconds longer? Ryan will even do that. He'll say like, I hate this and this makes me really uncomfortable, but I know that for growth, you and I need to talk about this. So can I share this? That's fine. You can call it out. You can say how much you hate it. You can say how uncomfortable it makes you feel. And then ask, what is my story about intimacy? What is the story that I have created about intimacy and why it doesn't feel safe? Start to get curious. And if you're dating somebody who's more avoidant, you cannot regulate for both of you. You cannot do the work for both of you. You cannot love someone into being ready. And no, silence is not a test. It's data.

• 30:29Sabrina Zohar?

  Start to get real about this. Because I wanted to just be clear about this entire episode that like, you don't have to date this person if you don't want to. But what I am saying is that there are a lot of people that show up very differently. And I see it all the time. You guys will be like, well, they didn't text me for a date. Fuck this guy. I blocked them or they didn't do what I want. And it's like, whoa, whoa. And then I see the opposite of like, I haven't heard of this person in three weeks, but I'm going to stick around. And it's like, can we not have the pendulum swing to such severe? And maybe we can just find a happy medium of, do I see that they're growth minded? Do I see that they're really implementing the talks and the conversations that we're having? Do I see that they're trying? Okay. And can, does that work for me? Is that enough for me? Cause Masha always asked me, and like, anytime I used to talk to her about Ryan's avoidance, she would say like, I know you love him and I know you care about him, but it's not about if he goes to therapy and does all of these things, then he'll become the person that I want.

• 31:14Sabrina Zohar?

  She's like, but even if he does the healing work, are you still loving the person that he is? That character is destiny. That's not changing. Okay. So anybody that's dealing with the avoidance, I want you to start to learn that when you feel the urge to pull away, I need you to pause. I need you to pause and you need to name. You notice how the tools are the same for the anxious and the avoidant? That's because both of us are dealing with the same shit, just coming up differently. So then I want you to name where you feel it in your body. I want you to name the urge, right? I want to run. I want to bolt. I want to cancel plans. But what emotion is underneath that? Am I sad? Am I scared? Am I worried? Am I freaking out? Okay. Then I want you to think about the text. Don't wait until it feels right to text back. Fucking respond. Respond when you fucking want to respond. Who gives a shit? Safety is built through repetition, not through waiting until you're regulated.

• 31:58Sabrina Zohar?

  That's part of doing things that make you uncomfortable. And then the last thing. Practice micro intimacy. That's a big one. Instead of dumping your entire life on them, try, can I share something that felt really hard today? Yeah, then stay. Let it land. Don't escape the moment with a joke or deflection. Try to be in the moment of like, yeah, I'm gonna just tell you, I felt really shitty today. I shut down. I felt very disconnected from you. And sit with it. Wow. And then your nervous system, your little is probably gonna be like, this doesn't feel safe. What are we doing here? Oh, my God, run, bolt, go. This is... Allow yourself to feel, maybe get rejected. Allow yourself to feel judged. That's the thing is like, that's how you expand your window of tolerance. And you don't have to stay with this person. I'm not saying like allow abuse. But what I am saying is like, if you say that and then you see this person being like, wow, man up. Great, you can know in that person, this isn't safe. They judged me.

• 32:43Sabrina Zohar?

  I don't wanna be here anymore. And then if you're dating somebody who is avoidant, we need to have a conversation. You can have a conversation with this person of like, hey, I value consistency and open communication. If that's not something that you're ready to do, that's totally fair and okay, but I'm not into guessing games. Or you could do what I did with Ryan. Like, hey, I enjoyed our night. I'm really excited about this, but I'm not into the casual and the hookup. If you call me, it's because you wanna date me. You wanna see where this goes and we're gonna explore that. And if not, that's okay too. We don't need to do this. You have every right to be like, hey, cool. I don't do this. I don't play the games. Either you text me and you're good consistent or you don't. That's okay. What you're telling this person is, I want you in my life, but I don't need you in my life. I want you in my life. I'm gonna make space for you and I'm gonna express myself and be communicative and open and honest. But I don't need you in my life, which means I'm not gonna sacrifice my wants, needs and desires in order to keep you in my life.

• 33:27Sabrina Zohar?

  I'm not gonna self abandon just to keep you around. That's what you're telling this person. The next thing, don't fill the silence. Right? So when the avoidance pause, you just allow them. Their system is regulating. I see with Ryan, he'll sit there and I'm like, I can tell. Sometimes he'll just stare and I'll just let it. I don't interpret it as rejection. I wanna see what's their follow through. Because not just the silence. I wanna see, do they reengage? Do they come back? Do they make eye contact with me? Do they come back online? Great, that's your fucking answer. Not the silence. It's what do they do with the silence? That's big. And then the last thing, regulate with yourself, not for them. When you get triggered, don't fucking text to fix it. I want you to ask, am I reaching out to connect? Or am I trying to calm my anxiety? You know, I'm big on that with the texting stuff. Self-regulation.

• 34:12Sabrina Zohar?

  Isn't the same as silence. It means that you are telling your body, I'm going to protect and sit and do what I need to do for myself before I project onto them. Don't fucking stonewall. Okay, let's do a quick Q and A. So I think we had answered this. Do avoidants know that they're hurting you? Sometimes, but they're so disconnected from the impact because it triggers shame. And so that's why a lot of them will remove because they don't want to feel shame or blame or anything. So they're disconnected from that. Doesn't mean that they don't care. That's their own shit. Do they regret it? Often they do, it's just not immediate. Regret comes after the overwhelm processes and moves on. And that's why they're able, that's why they come back. Why do they come on strong at first? Because fantasy is safe. Reality is when the fear kicks in. Fantasy is really easy. I can project onto you all day what I think you're going to be, but then when I have to go and cash the check that I wrote. Yikes.

• 34:57Sabrina Zohar?

  Can two avoidants date each other? Sure, same with two anxious folks, but without self-awareness, it's usually just distant, it's low conflict, it's emotionally flat, and it's the same with the anxious. Oftentimes, it just ends up being too much. One person gets turned off by the other person because it's so much overwhelmed that both people are like, this is a lot. And then the last question, why are they cold even when they're the ones that left? It's protective, feeling the loss might crack into their coping mechanisms. And so that's why they'll be even colder with you. And so if you're avoidant, I want you to listen to this. You don't have to leap into full vulnerability. Your nervous system isn't going to fucking be comfortable with that. Try staying in the room for 10 fucking seconds longer. Literally, send the text, stay connected when you don't want to fucking feel connected with this person. And if you're dating somebody, don't try to fix them, don't try to do anything to fix their dysregulation or their consistency.

• 35:42Sabrina Zohar?

  Lead and love them honestly, not blindly. And give them space to meet you or space to let you go. Really depends on what's right for that season. So I wanted to just clarify, avoidant attachment doesn't mean that they're cold. It doesn't mean that they're callous. It means that this person is going through their own shit. Now again, that doesn't mean you have to deal with it, right? Like I've had people write in saying, well, the person I'm dating, they always shut down and remove themselves. It's like, well, that person's not actually doing any work on themselves. They're just going back into their coping mechanisms and coming back when they're online and then they go offline and then they come back online. Bitch, I'm not fucking DS, I'm not dial up, right? The AOL ain't fucking eeeery in my house right now. So we don't get to disconnect and connect that often. But if you're dating somebody and they're avoidant, like you're allowed to also Clarify with them what it is that you want to need and see if they can align with that. Maybe this person tells you, "I don't really want to text all the time, but I'd

• 36:27Sabrina Zohar?

  love to get to know you in person." Great. Maybe this person tells you, "I'm not the most emotional lovey dovey person, but that doesn't mean that over time I'm not going to open up to you." Great. But we also want to look and say, "Maybe this person just needs time to feel safe, needs a safe environment in order to feel comfortable and open." And I see that a lot of like, "Why did they choose that person over me?" It's like, "Because maybe that person didn't trigger them in the same ways. Maybe that person didn't remind them of other people. Maybe that person was just a different version that they needed." And that's okay, because you'll find your version too, baby. Guys, if you need more, you know that there's the podcast, you're on it. But we have the YouTube. If you haven't already, go subscribe and watch. We do 10-minute shorts twice a week, so you get even more content. We've got the courses, the nervous system course, the breakup course, the foundation course, and the self-love course. Whether you're single or in a relationship, these are all there for you, for your resources. They're self-guided, and they include free

• 37:12Sabrina Zohar?

  group coaching every month with Sheila. So that's part of it. If you have not joined, email us and we'll get you in the Telegram group. And every month, you guys will connect with Sheila to really implement the material that you're learning, free, comes with all for life, as long as we do it. And if you guys need anything, I'm always here. I love working with you guys. I love being here. I love being connected. And all I ask is, please, please, please, comment and rate and review the show. Leave comments on the show, even if it's on the episode, just being like, "Hearts, love you, here for you, thank you so much." Even if you don't like it, please leave a five-star. Just because we disagree doesn't mean that you need to leave me a one-star review because you don't like the fucking cadence that I speak, when you can manually adjust that. But what I am asking for is kindness and love, because this is my business. I don't do this all because I just like to watch myself on TV. I would just record videos in my house all day. I

• 37:54Sabrina Zohar?

  do this because I genuinely fucking love you guys, and I care about this community, and I'm trying to grow it. And what I need from you guys is that love back. And if you've already done all this, thank you. I fucking love you, and I'm so here for you. Thank you, my babies. And if you haven't already, I know, out of 17,000 reviews on Spotify, not everybody's reviewed. And so it takes seconds, turn on auto downloads, that's me begging you for help, because that is the only way I'm going to grow. I don't have the resources like all these big podcasts that have millions of dollars and staff and everything. I do everything myself, because I'm passionate about what I do. And all I'm asking in return is, please just share this with a friend and just engage with it. You don't have to pay for shit if you don't want to. If you want ad-free, it fucking exists. If not, please, that's all I ask of you guys is just even market is finished.

• 38:37Sabrina Zohar?

  Even if you didn't finish the episode, little things like that make a huge impact. That's how I can go back on the charts and continue to keep the show going for you guys. Otherwise, you know, we don't get ads, we don't get sponsors, we don't get that. We can't continue the show. That's it. I would have to close it all up. And so that's the only thing I ask for you is just show up and fucking show up. Guys, I'm so stoked. I hope that this helped and we can do more, right? If you're like, hey babes, I have more questions. I'd love an episode on this. Feel free, always tap it in wherever you're listening on YouTube, Spotify, Apple, doesn't really matter. Feel free to chime on in and let me know. And guys, until next time, we'll do the anxious one next time. I love you. Don't fucking give up on yourself because bitch, if I'm not giving up on you, you better not fucking give up on you. I love you babies. I'll see you next week.

• 39:24Speaker 00

  Life is all about making decisions. Sometimes you make questionable ones, like buying a new TV that's too big for the wall because the electronics store employee was a little too good at their job. Then sometimes you make great ones, like protecting your home and auto with Progressive. You get customized coverage options so you can be sure you have the right coverage. Get your quote today at progressive.com. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company affiliates and other insurers, not available in all states.

• 39:54Speaker 01

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