Stitch Fix: Katrina Lake

In 2010, Katrina Lake recruited 20 friends for an experiment: she wanted to see if she could choose clothes for them that accurately matched their style and personality. That idea sparked Stitch Fix, an online personal shopping service that aims to take the guesswork out of shopping. Today, it has over two million customers and brings in nearly a billion dollars in annual revenue. Plus, for our postscript "How You Built That", how Brian Sonia-Wallace built "Rent Poet" — a poem-on-demand service for weddings, corporate gatherings, and other events. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:02Speaker 00

  At that seed stage, it was 100% just an idea. I would come in and I'd say, here's the beta that I did with 20 people. And here's how I think the business model will shape up. And then probably talk to 30 angel investors who said no. And when you're doing something that nobody else is doing, you are either the smartest or the stupidest person in the room.

• 0:34Guy Raz?

  From NPR, it's How I Built This, a show about innovators, entrepreneurs, idealists, and the stories behind the movements they built.

• 0:45Guy Raz?

  I'm Guy Raz, and on today's show, how Katrina Lake defied the investment world to build a tech company that transformed clothes shopping online.

• 1:01Guy Raz?

  So every year, it seems, there's always that one buzzword or idea that everyone in Silicon Valley seems to be talking about. A couple of years ago, it was cryptocurrency. Recently, it's been blockchain. But there's also a widely-held idea in the tech world that the days of retail stores are numbered. Now, of course, this is a combination of wishful thinking and hyperbole, but there is something to it, especially with big retailers. Macy's is struggling. Bonton and Toys R' Us have filed for bankruptcy. And in October of 2017, Lord & Taylor sold its flagship building in Manhattan to WeWork.

• 1:43Guy Raz?

  That amazing Italian Renaissance building on Fifth Avenue is now worth more as a WeWork than as a department store. And the main reason why, of course, is that people just aren't going into big department stores. They're buying a lot more stuff online. Now, convenience is a major reason, of course, but so is time. Time is increasingly limited. And that's really where Katrina Lake's idea begins. Because as she got older and busier with work, she found that she had less time to go shopping for clothes. And only rich people could afford personal shoppers. So she thought, hey, why not figure out a way to make that more affordable and less time consuming?

• 2:26Guy Raz?

  And that was the genesis of Stitch Fix, an online personal shopping service. Now, today Stitch Fix has 2 million customers with annual revenue close to $8 billion. And in 2017, Katrina became the youngest female CEO ever to take a company public. But it wasn't necessarily going to be a slam dunk business. And in fact, Katrina had a hard time raising money in the beginning. But we'll get there. She actually grew up in San Francisco in a bicultural home. Mom is Japanese, dad is American. And at the age of 15, her parents decided to move the family from the Bay Area to Minnesota,

• 3:06Guy Raz?

  which, if you've seen Inside Out, is the exact opposite of what happens in that movie.

• 3:12Speaker 00

  Like, to go from, in San Francisco, it's a more diverse city. And like, the high school that I went to was probably 70% Asian. And then to go to a school in Minneapolis where I think there were three Asian people, and three and a half if you include me in my class. And we were a very bilingual, bicultural household. And so we, my mom-

• 3:34Guy Raz?

  You speak Japanese?

• 3:35Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 3:36Guy Raz?

  Oh, wow.

• 3:37Speaker 00

  My mom spoke only Japanese to me, still does. And my dad, obviously, spoke only English. And we celebrated a lot of Japanese holidays. And we would bring lunch to school. I think it was, we had kind of like a schedule. And three days a week, it would be onigiri, which is rice balls that have something in the middle. And then two days a week, it was sandwiches. So it was kind of fun.

• 3:56Guy Raz?

  Katrina went to Stanford for college and initially thought she was going to be a doctor like her dad. But she ended up majoring in economics. And after she graduated, she ended up working at a consulting firm advising other businesses. She was 22 years old and still not really sure what she wanted to do.

• 4:14Speaker 00

  You know, honestly, at that point, I wasn't thinking that I wanted to do something entrepreneurial. But like, I had all these ideas on what these businesses could do better. This should be personalized and like, this is just a transaction. It should be an experience.

• 4:28Guy Raz?

  Like, ideas in your head or ideas that you actually told people about?

• 4:31Speaker 00

  Both.

• 4:32Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 4:33Speaker 00

  Like, there's an example. We were working with a large retailer. And they actually said that they wanted ideas of what's the future going to be like. And this was in 2006, and it was literally before the iPhone. And like, I had this idea where I was like, why, you know, in a store, why do you have to have every single size and SKU on the floor? It seemed silly that a person has to walk in and like, find the size and SKU and then take it themselves to a fitting room. And like, I was like, how about this idea where you like, half of the store is a warehouse, a distribution center, and the other half is like a museum? You walk around and you see all these beautifully merchandised things. And you log in when you come in and you get a wand. And then you can just put the wand in front of the outfits that you think you like. And then you walk into the back and it's like, hi, guy.

• 5:18Speaker 00

  Like, here's your fitting room. And all the things that you wanted or whatever would be stacked up there. And then there would also be recommendations. And, you know, you could have one size up and one size down. And, you know, it could just be like, a much better experience than like, going and weeding through racks to try to find your thing. And like, people looked at me like I had seven heads.

• 5:38Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 5:39Speaker 00

  And so like, you know, in retrospect, I'm like, that was crazy. Like, if I was the CEO of that retailer, I'd be like, interesting idea, totally impractical.

• 5:46Guy Raz?

  And who is this like, 23-year-old telling me about this idea?

• 5:50Speaker 00

  Exactly. And so, you know, I mean, I didn't share all of the ideas. And I wouldn't say that all of the ideas that I shared were well-received. But like, I had tons of ideas about how things should be done better.

• 6:01Guy Raz?

  So you worked for this consulting firm, I guess, for like two years. And then you decided to go work for a venture capital company. Why?

• 6:11Speaker 00

  You know, I look back on that and I really left because I was just like really unhappy with the amount of work. And so I took this job at a VC fund, which like I didn't actually want to be a venture capitalist and I, you know, I didn't, it wasn't that industry that was appealing to me. But I was like, if I'm going to work at a place that's going to be the crazy retail idea of the future, like this is a way I can meet the next thing.

• 6:33Guy Raz?

  Oh, wow. So you actually thought, if I'm working here, I'm going to hear all these pitches and maybe I'll find a cool company and join it.

• 6:39Speaker 00

  Exactly. That is exactly what I thought. Yes. And so, and I did, and I met hundreds of entrepreneurs and like-

• 6:45Guy Raz?

  And just to interrupt, were you a, like, a money person? Were you managing money or were you on the analysis side? Were you in a room where these people would come and pitch and you would throw like Shark Tank questions at them?

• 6:57Speaker 00

  I, um, I was in that room, but I was more of like the note taker. Like, I took the notes and I would create investment memos that were like a summary of the opportunity and I could have my opinion on those things for sure, but I wasn't an investor.

• 7:11Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 7:12Speaker 00

  It was also, it was a weird time to be in venture because I was there from '07 to '09. You know, we had a little bit of a recession. It was a weird time to be in venture and I didn't ultimately find the company.

• 7:27Guy Raz?

  You must have heard tons of ideas, though.

• 7:30Speaker 00

  Totally. I probably met over 100 entrepreneurs in the time that I was there. And the most important learning, actually, was that all of these people were just like super unqualified, normal people with lots of ideas, just like I was.

• 7:44Guy Raz?

  Yeah. They weren't like these superheroes with like, they were just really good at, I guess, kind of like, you know, making the case for their idea.

• 7:52Speaker 00

  Yeah. And so I think it was actually the more powerful thing was that I realized that if I have all these ideas about what should be happening, like I don't need to be in the peanut gallery lobbying my ideas at people, like I should just do it myself and that I could do it myself. But it still wasn't my, like, first choice. Like, my first choice would have still been, like, if I had met an entrepreneur who was amazing and compelling and creating the retail of the future, like, it was probably still my first choice to join somebody than to start it myself. But now all of a sudden I had this other plan, which was like, well, I guess if I don't find that, maybe there's a way that I could do it.

• 8:28Guy Raz?

  So when you come to that conclusion that maybe you can do this yourself, what did you do?

• 8:35Speaker 00

  I don't know that it was like a moment. I think it just entered my mind as like, this is another possibility. And I actually ultimately applied to business school, which-

• 8:44Guy Raz?

  You decided to do that instead of just leaping into starting a business?

• 8:49Speaker 00

  Yeah. And that wasn't even a choice. Like, it wasn't like I could start a business or go to business school.

• 8:53Guy Raz?

  What do you mean it wasn't a choice?

• 8:54Speaker 00

  I was not like, my risk profile, I was never going to like quit my job and take all this risk and have a gap on my resume. Like, that was just, that was never a choice in my mind. And so I was like, I can take these two years, I can be a mediocre student. And, you know, my end goal by the end of the two years is if I can have a company funded, if I can be paying myself a salary, if I can be paying back my student loans the day I graduate, then the risk profile of entrepreneurship was tenable to me. And then my plan B would be, well, if I can't do that, I'll have this MBA from Harvard and I'll be able to join a great company and a great founder and do something interesting.

• 9:30Guy Raz?

  So you get to Harvard as a business student in 2009. And did you like it?

• 9:37Speaker 00

  I did.

• 9:38Guy Raz?

  Because it's kind of an intense place, right?

• 9:41Speaker 00

  It was very different from maybe all of the experiences I had had.

• 9:46Guy Raz?

  I mean, we've heard these stories from, especially from professors there, particularly women, who've talked about how in the classroom, the discussions tend to be, you know, the hands that go up are men, or the voices that you hear mostly are men. Did you find that? And was it a place where you felt comfortable raising your hand and talking?

• 10:03Speaker 00

  I did. I mean, I did. You know, I think that stereotype is probably, probably was true. But I did feel comfortable talking. I think, you know, and I had a hard time disentangling, you know, is it gender? Is it being from California and saying like, like, what were the things that created this to be true? But like, I did feel a little bit underestimated. And I really tried to actively strip like out of my vocabulary. You know, people say that even like a southern accent makes people think a certain thing. And I felt sounding like I was from California also did the same thing. And so, you know, I didn't feel like I was the, I don't know, most likely to succeed in the classroom.

• 10:44Guy Raz?

  Yeah. Tell me how the idea for what would become Stitch Fix, which we'll talk about, obviously, but- What's the early idea that came to you? How did it even begin? Were you given an assignment? Were you told to analyze a problem? Like, what's the beginning of this?

• 11:01Speaker 00

  So I had a bunch of, I kind of collected a bunch of theses and ideas in my head. If you look at industries, and I probably had like a little bit of an academic approach in how I looked at these things, but like the hunting and fishing industry, it's, I know, it's crazy. It's a huge industry. It's massive. People are super passionate about it. It's really fragmented, but also concentrated, where it's like really mom and pops, or else there's like Orbis and, anyway, it's a super interesting industry because it's massive. And there's elements of fashion, actually, where it's like, whether it's technology or actual fashion, things go out of style. And so I rented a car and I drove to New Hampshire and like visited like two gun shops. And like the second, by the second one, I was like, I just, you know.

• 11:46Guy Raz?

  You were gonna disrupt the whole gun industry.

• 11:49Speaker 00

  I just was like, I don't care how big of an industry this is, like, I'm just not super passionate about it. And also, like, I am not the person to like disrupt this industry.

• 11:58Guy Raz?

  But who knew? There must still be an opportunity to, you know, disrupt the hunting and fishing industry.

• 12:03Speaker 00

  I think there probably is. But this is all to say, like, I was actively exploring a couple of ideas that I'm like, this is a real thing and it has a reason to belong in the world. And the idea of Stitch Fix was one that I also tested and explored, and the way I did that was-

• 12:18Guy Raz?

  What was your idea?

• 12:19Speaker 00

  The idea was, how can you, I mean, there are a couple of different theses. So one thesis overall was just like, more and more dollars are moving to e-commerce stores. Like, this was the math that I found was super compelling from my time in consulting, was dollars are leaving stores and going to e-commerce. As dollars gradually leave, every one of those dollars is hugely hurtful to a store as it loses it. Because all of a sudden, you can't pay your rent, you can't pay your people. And so, you know, like a 10%, 15% decline in your store volume can kill a store. And 10% or 15% doesn't seem like all that much. And so, there's this kind of like death spiral that I kind of anticipated would happen with stores. And Netflix and Blockbuster is kind of like the best example of it.

• 13:00Guy Raz?

  Right, yeah.

• 13:01Speaker 00

  Of like, even if- 30% of the people in your town are using Netflix and 70% of the people in your town are going to Blockbuster. Like that Blockbuster probably can't make money.

• 13:08Guy Raz?

  I mean, the writing's on the wall at that point.

• 13:10Speaker 00

  Right. And the death spiral component of it is like that one Blockbuster closes and now the 70% of the people who lived in that town have to decide, do I drive 10 miles to another Blockbuster or do I try this Netflix thing that 30%, the minority of people in my town are doing?

• 13:25Guy Raz?

  That was probably a big conversation at that time because Netflix was killing Blockbusters at that time.

• 13:31Speaker 00

  Exactly. Yes. It's fascinating. So I expected that would happen in retail apparel stores. And then on top of that, I felt like there was this massive depersonalization of retail that was happening, which when you're buying toilet paper, iPhone chargers, or diapers is fine. You don't need that to be personal. But that totally ignored this category of apparel, which is like deeply personal and deeply nuanced and are product categories that are super emotional. Like you're not kind of emotionally buying a box of Kleenex, but like you were very emotionally buying that blazer.

• 14:04Guy Raz?

  Right.

• 14:05Speaker 00

  And so I felt like all of the emotion and nuance had been stripped out in e-commerce and that that wasn't the right approach.

• 14:13Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 14:14Speaker 00

  So the idea was, how can you deliver a really actually personal experience in apparel and use data and technology to make that scalable and to make that better?

• 14:26Guy Raz?

  But why, I mean, why wouldn't you just, you know, offer up a bunch of options and just let people kind of scroll through? I mean, I guess the beauty of online shopping certainly at that time was, you know, just infinite choices, right? You could just scroll through and find the thing you like.

• 14:43Speaker 00

  Yeah. And, you know, I think for some customers, you know, that's a way that they want to shop. But like, I'm five foot two and so there's a whole world of apparel that's like literally not relevant to me. Just simply because they're not going to fit me because I'm the wrong height. And there are things that, you know, if you're living in California, you can go on a homepage and they're trying to sell you cashmere mittens. And it's like, that's totally irrelevant to me. So if you peel back like what Stitch Fix does, it's like, yes, like if you could, instead of going to a mall all day or instead of spending, you know, your entire evening with 30 browser tabs open to try to compare and contrast different jeans you want to buy, if you could get a box sent to you that had two pairs of jeans, or even better, one pair of jeans and they fit you great,

• 15:27Speaker 00

  that is an infinitely better experience than the other alternatives out there.

• 15:32Guy Raz?

  Okay, so you had this idea about like a business where I guess you would send a subscription box of clothes to people. But how did you, like, how did you even begin to think of, about how it was going to work?

• 15:44Speaker 00

  So, the way it worked was basically I would have friends of friends fill out a survey and you would let me know what size and style, what things you like, what brands you like, all that kind of stuff.

• 15:52Guy Raz?

  And you were just experimenting at this point? Or had you already formed a company and named it?

• 15:55Speaker 00

  No, I was, this was in 2010, I was experimenting.

• 15:58Guy Raz?

  As a student, essentially, writing to other friends and students in?

• 16:03Speaker 00

  In Boston. And that was the benefit of being in Boston, too, is like, I didn't really have that many friends in Boston, and so it was easy to meet strangers. And so, one of the things that I needed to prove to myself was like, it wasn't going to be scalable for you to tell me, okay, these are the seven things I want, and then for me to go buy those things. Like, the math doesn't work for that to be scalable, and so you need to have a set of inventory you're working from. And so, I was buying inventory at retail from boutiques in Boston, and I would keep track of like, do they have a 14-day return policy or a 30-day return policy? And then I would use, I wasn't making any money doing this, but I would use that as my inventory, so that when somebody would fill out their profile, I would then put

• 16:44Speaker 00

  together a box of things that were relevant based on what they shared in their profile. And then they would try things on, and then if they wanted to buy things, they would write me a personal check, and I would sell it to them. And if they didn't want to keep it, and if I ultimately didn't sell it within my 14-day return window, I'd go and return it to the boutique.

• 17:02Guy Raz?

  By the way, how did you buy all that stuff?

• 17:04Speaker 00

  I had a credit card with a $6,000 limit on it.

• 17:07Guy Raz?

  Oh, nice. And you would buy them and then sell them at a markup?

• 17:11Speaker 00

  No, I was just selling them at the price that I bought them.

• 17:13Guy Raz?

  At the price, okay.

• 17:14Speaker 00

  I wasn't making any money. I just wanted to like, see if it would work.

• 17:16Guy Raz?

  Just to test this out.

• 17:17Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 17:18Guy Raz?

  Wow. And how many friends were in on this at the beginning?

• 17:20Speaker 00

  I mean, not, I don't know, 20, maybe?

• 17:22Guy Raz?

  20, oh, wow.

• 17:23Speaker 00

  10 or 20?

• 17:24Guy Raz?

  Wow. What did you find from this group of 20 people? What did you discover?

• 17:28Speaker 00

  I discovered that you actually could learn a lot from somebody. I think there's just this thesis around like, do I have to be with you in person to understand your style and who you are, or can I do that through a survey? And I felt pretty confident you could do it through a survey. There was a number of items thing. I started out with 10 items. And the reality was, people weren't going to try on 10 items. It's a lot. It's a lot of work. And you just look at something and you're like, no, there's no way I'm going to like that. And you just don't try everything on. And so 10 was too many. What else did I learn? I think I learned the brand thing of like, it didn't, you know, people were actually surprisingly very open to buying from brands that they weren't aware of and in fact, found

• 18:10Speaker 00

  some value in finding brands that they wouldn't have normally have found on their own.

• 18:14Guy Raz?

  So when did you pull the trigger and say, all right, let's, let me form a business. Let's, let's get an LLC going. Let's like, make this real.

• 18:23Speaker 00

  It was, we didn't actually, the company wasn't formed until February of 2011. But I kind of became all in on this and not other concepts, I would say, like, late 2010.

• 18:38Guy Raz?

  So when you, when you really kind of like, got this going, at that time, it was not just you, right? You wasn't, you were not the only one involved in the company.

• 18:46Speaker 00

  Yeah, I had a co-founder at the time. She was the wife of my friend from college.

• 18:49Guy Raz?

  And so how are you running this business and also being a student?

• 18:54Speaker 00

  I scheduled my classes so that they were, they were all lumped together in the middle, either in the middle or the end of the week. I did something with my scheduling that enabled me to be able to spend almost a week in California. And so in January, and then again in February, I spent almost a full week out here. And what I would do out here was meet with angel investors. And on Valentine's Day of 2011, we got a term sheet from Steve Anderson.

• 19:20Guy Raz?

  Steve Anderson is an investor that you met through other people. And he gave you, how much money did he give you?

• 19:26Speaker 00

  He gave a term sheet for a half million dollars.

• 19:29Guy Raz?

  Wow.

• 19:29Speaker 00

  And then said, now go talk to other angel investors and try to find others to join the round.

• 19:34Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 19:35Speaker 00

  And then probably talked to 30 other people who said no, ultimately, even though he had already said yes.

• 19:41Guy Raz?

  Yeah. I mean, in that, in the sort of winter and spring of 2011, when you, you took the research that you'd gathered from these 20 people and you went to meet with investors in the Silicon Valley, did you just, you showed them this data and you said, "See, I tried this on 20 friends and this is what we found," right? I mean, you can understand, you could understand, I guess, why they might have been skeptical.

• 20:03Speaker 00

  Oh, totally. Yeah, no, I would come in and I'd say like, you know, here's the beta that I did with like 20 people and here's how I think the business model will shape up. And like, I would bring a box in and I'd say like, here's an example of a box with like laminated cards. And, you know, the box wasn't like all that nice looking. Like, it's not like I had spent any money on branding or anything. And at that seed stage, like, it was 100% just an idea.

• 20:25Guy Raz?

  And, and explain how you explained what the business model was at that time. Because just to clarify, Stitch Fix today, you sign up, you pay 20 bucks a month, you get five items sent to you every month, depending on your subscription. And if you buy them all, you get a discount. And if you return them all, that's fine, it's free, but it's $20 a month essentially for a personal stylist, right?

• 20:48Speaker 00

  Yeah. And it's $20. And to be very clear, like, you don't have to do it on a monthly basis. You could do it quarterly, you can do it à la carte. Like, you don't, you know, you don't need to commit to any timeframe. But it is, every time you get a fix, you pay a $20 styling fee. The $20 is credit towards anything that you choose to buy. But the heart of it was really this like, we're gonna buy inventory, we're gonna get to know you, we're gonna become experts on you, clients, and we're gonna become experts on the products. And then we're gonna generate really great recommendations at the intersection of those two things.

• 21:16Guy Raz?

  But, but, but buying inventory, that's, that's, that's a big investment, right?

• 21:21Speaker 00

  Right. At Stitch Fix, like, what we did and what we did then and what we do now is like, we are like a department store. We buy a wholesale.

• 21:26Guy Raz?

  You bought a bunch of stuff and you keep it in warehouses.

• 21:28Speaker 00

  Yeah, exactly. And so when I would go and raise a half million dollars from Steve Anderson, like, half of that was literally going to buy dresses and clothes. And venture investors hated that.

• 21:40Guy Raz?

  And not only would they have hated that, but you, if in your business model, you said, "We're going to personalize this. We're going to have human beings involved in picking stuff." I mean, venture people, they don't like to pay people. Like, they like companies that are like, they like user-generated content.

• 21:55Speaker 00

  Yeah, totally.

• 21:56Guy Raz?

  Or they like, they like stuff that's free. They don't like to pay for human resources, right?

• 21:59Speaker 00

  Right. Yeah. People said, like, this is going to be an inventory nightmare. Like, and it was good feedback because ultimately, inventory, like, we are very good at managing inventory, and we have to be in our model. And, you know, people saw that, and people were skeptical that you'd be able to execute.

• 22:16Guy Raz?

  Over that period of time, when you're trying to raise money, and all, everybody essentially, except for Steve, said no. Was that demoralizing? Was it disheartening? Were you just like, "Yeah, whatever. I'm, you know, water on a duck's back"?

• 22:29Speaker 00

  I don't know, it was both. Like, you just, you had to be able to have reason for confidence in what you were doing, regardless of what venture investors thought at the moment. And so, like, you did have to have thick skin about it, and you did have to let it be water on a duck's back. But at the same time, what we were doing, like, nobody else was really doing it for, like, a very long time. And when you're doing something that nobody else is doing, you are either the smartest or the stupidest person in the room.

• 23:04Guy Raz?

  When we come back, why, despite early growth, the money man in Silicon Valley didn't want to give Stitch Fix the valuation Katrina thought it deserved, and how she fought back. Stay with us. I'm Guy Raz, and you're listening to How I Built This from NPR.

• 23:27Guy Raz?

  Hey, welcome back to How I Built This from NPR. I'm Guy Raz. So it's the spring of 2011, and with the seed money she got from just one, single investor, Katrina Lake got a small office in San Francisco and got to work.

• 23:43Speaker 00

  Yeah. In February, we got the term sheet. In April, it funded. In May, I graduated.

• 23:49Guy Raz?

  And then you moved to-

• 23:50Speaker 00

  And then in June, moved out to San Francisco-

• 23:51Guy Raz?

  To San Francisco.

• 23:51Speaker 00

  And 1,100 square feet.

• 23:52Guy Raz?

  And San Francisco was important to do it because this is where you wanted to live? Or because of the tech industry? Or?

• 23:59Speaker 00

  Honestly- You know, the smart way to talk about it is the tech industry. But honestly, like when I first was starting the company, I was like, OK, we have to be in New York since it's where fashion is.

• 24:07Guy Raz?

  Fashion, right.

• 24:08Speaker 00

  And then like a couple of months in, I realized there's no reason we have to be in New York. Lots of brands are in LA, lots of, you know, lots of companies are here. Like, I think it would have been really hard to do what we did anywhere else because we have many, many data scientists and many, many engineers. And, you know, in retrospect, it was not just about me being comfortable, but if we wanted to fulfill on the vision of using technology to deliver our service, like, it would have been very difficult to do it elsewhere.

• 24:33Guy Raz?

  Were you able to build a website with that money?

• 24:36Speaker 00

  No, or not yet. Yeah, so the first seven months of Stitch Fix, like, we didn't have a website. Actually, the first name was Rack Habit, which lasted for about three months before we got, it was very clear that Nordstrom would have sued us for it if we had used that name.

• 24:49Guy Raz?

  Because it's Nordstrom Rack, right.

• 24:50Speaker 00

  Yes, exactly. The lawyer took like five seconds of looking at it, was like, this, like, you gotta change your name.

• 24:54Guy Raz?

  Not a good name.

• 24:54Speaker 00

  Which was fine. I hated the name. It was a terrible name anyway.

• 24:59Guy Raz?

  OK, so you, you start to call it Stitch Fix.

• 25:02Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 25:02Guy Raz?

  You don't have a fully formed website yet, and what did your first page look like?

• 25:06Speaker 00

  How, how were they interacting? So you would go to stitchfix.com, and it said, coming soon, do you want to be part of the beta?

• 25:11Guy Raz?

  I see.

• 25:11Speaker 00

  And then it said, if you, if you clicked on, yes, I want to be part of the beta, it would click you over to, I forget if it was a Google Doc or a Survey Monkey, but a something, and then you fill out all your information and you say you're interested.

• 25:21Guy Raz?

  Hmm.

• 25:22Speaker 00

  And we actually had a waitlist for a long time because we didn't have clothes to send to you that were relevant, and demand outpaced kind of what we had for a long time. And so, once I was ready for you, I would send you a link that said, like, you know, Stitch Fix is ready for you. And then I would, I would send you a PayPal request for $20. And so, the history of the styling fee that we have was that I was worried that you could be a bot or somebody who's going to steal money or steal my clothes. And so, I felt like if you were willing to PayPal me $20 before I've even sent you anything, you were probably a legitimate human being who wasn't going to steal my clothes.

• 26:02Guy Raz?

  You could take the risk.

• 26:03Speaker 00

  Right. And so... I would PayPal request you for $20. You'd give me $20. And then I would send you a shipment of five items. And inside, there was like a paper return survey because we still didn't have a website. And so it was a piece of paper that was like an Excel thing that had all the items. And then you would fill out with words what you were going to keep, what you weren't going to keep, and explaining why. And then we would have TaskRabbit who would type that into Excel so that we had the data.

• 26:29Guy Raz?

  Just hire people in TaskRabbit, like on an hourly basis.

• 26:31Speaker 00

  Yep, who would like type in that information so that we had it. And then based on what you were keeping and not keeping, a net of your $20 styling fee, I would send you a PayPal invoice for the net. And that was kind of how it worked in the beginning.

• 26:43Guy Raz?

  Where were you getting the clothes from?

• 26:46Speaker 00

  We were buying at wholesale, and so we were buying six items at a time.

• 26:50Guy Raz?

  How did you find the wholesalers?

• 26:51Speaker 00

  We would go to like, there's these shows you can go to, and you can go introduce yourself to brands. And, you know, most of the brands weren't that interested in working with us. But, you know, some would give us a shot and say like, I don't know, that's an interesting thing. Sure, you can buy six items from us. And literally would buy six of one thing at a time.

• 27:09Guy Raz?

  So initially, your brands were not well-known.

• 27:11Speaker 00

  Yeah, definitely.

• 27:12Guy Raz?

  And who was style, who was picking the clothes? How did you? I mean, you, obviously, you know how to dress well. You are well-dressed right here. But, I mean, that's a big responsibility to like be the personal stylist of, you know, even 100 people, even 30 people.

• 27:29Speaker 00

  Yeah. And, I mean, it was, we hired our first stylist in, I'm trying to think when she would, like, February of 2012.

• 27:38Guy Raz?

  So the first, like, year, it's just, it's like...

• 27:41Speaker 00

  It was probably me, yeah.

• 27:43Guy Raz?

  And who was packing?

• 27:44Speaker 00

  My co-founder at the time. And it was, and we were the ones packing the boxes, too.

• 27:46Guy Raz?

  You were packing the boxes.

• 27:47Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 27:47Guy Raz?

  So you are in San Francisco, and it's, you know, you're essentially doing everything, and you've got this website, and...

• 27:56Guy Raz?

  How are you getting the word out?

• 27:57Speaker 00

  It was literally just people telling other people. And so it was 29, then it was 35, then it was 110, then it was 235, and then it just like...

• 28:06Guy Raz?

  Over that summer of 2011?

• 28:08Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, those were the actual cohort numbers for each month. And then I think after that, it started getting the attention of what I would call like small to medium sized influencers.

• 28:19Guy Raz?

  It wasn't in vogue yet.

• 28:20Speaker 00

  Right, it certainly wasn't in vogue, and it wasn't like the bloggers that have like millions of followers, but it was people who have like 50,000 followers or 100,000 followers.

• 28:28Guy Raz?

  Would you email them about it?

• 28:30Speaker 00

  Yeah, I would, I mean, if they, I would. And that was a really big driver for us for a long time.

• 28:36Guy Raz?

  So now you're starting to get some momentum, and obviously you're growing, you need more money, you need millions of dollars. When you would show up seeking money, was it challenging? I mean, let's be honest, I mean, the vast majority of people in tech are men, and in this space, you know, going to VCs, they're probably used to seeing mostly men. Was the gender dynamic ever something that was present that you felt, that you felt worked against you, that made it harder to raise money or generate interest?

• 29:11Speaker 00

  Raising money was really hard, and I think there were a lot of factors that contributed to it. I mean, certainly the inventory side, like, that's real. Like, Silicon Valley venture investors want to buy software engineers, or they want to buy apps, like, they don't want to buy clothes. The gender dynamic was real also, you know, 94% of venture investors are men, and probably the majority of men don't feel passionate about dressing women.

• 29:39Guy Raz?

  I'm curious, you know, with respect to your experience with venture capitalists, because there's a mythology about them and the genius of venture capitalists and, you know, how they take great risks, but, you know, they can invest in hundreds or thousands of failures, and they just need one or two to like, come out and look like geniuses.

• 29:59Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's absolutely true.

• 30:01Guy Raz?

  There's this like, this mythology of the oracle, you know, like, this oracle venture capitalist who's just, you know, gifted and can just pick winners, but I don't think that really matches with reality.

• 30:12Speaker 00

  Yeah. And it is like it creates another dynamic too where, and I don't think I realized this at the time, but you're right, like they want billion dollar businesses and they would either rather, they want you to be a zero or a billion and everything in the middle is not that attractive. And so people were like, this is a real business and it's really working. But, you know, I don't know if it can be more than a $30 million revenue or more than like $100 million in revenue. Like, I just don't think it's that big. And like, to a normal person, $30 million or $100 million is insane.

• 30:45Guy Raz?

  Insane.

• 30:46Speaker 00

  But like, but from a venture capitalist perspective, like, they make the most money when it's a billion or zero. And so, you know, there are a lot of people who are like, hey, what you're doing is traction and it's real and it's working. But like, I don't think it can be big enough for me to be interested.

• 30:59Guy Raz?

  Yeah. But I mean, you still raised a fair amount of money. I mean, like $42 million in, you know, in the beginning, which, which sounds pretty good, but I guess you still needed to keep at it?

• 31:12Speaker 00

  Yeah. I mean, I, once we had a little bit of traction, in some weird ways, it made it harder because now all of a sudden, people are like, you know, trying to put that billion dollar price tag on you and trying to figure out like, you know, is this big enough?

• 31:27Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 31:27Speaker 00

  And so in the middle, it was really hard and

• 31:30Guy Raz?

  In the middle to raise money?

• 31:32Speaker 00

  In the middle, yeah. The, to raise money, it was really hard.

• 31:35Guy Raz?

  Even though you were profitable or on the way to profitability?

• 31:38Speaker 00

  Yeah. And I hated it. Like, I hated raising money. I didn't feel good at it. Like, it wasn't my intention when I started the company, let me do this with as little capital as I can. But after a couple of experiences with fundraising, I was like, I want to do this as little as I possibly can.

• 31:55Guy Raz?

  But meanwhile, the company is growing. And I guess we should, we should mention here that you guys employ a lot of data scientists, like a huge number.

• 32:05Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 32:05Guy Raz?

  So at what point did you just sort of become like a, like a data company, a data tech company, not just a fashion company?

• 32:12Speaker 00

  Yeah, I mean,

• 32:15Speaker 00

  Honestly, from day zero, we were always a data company. Like even, like those return surveys that I described, like even when we were physically shipping the fixes out of our office and we didn't even have a website, we were collecting the data about the product, the attributes of the product, and we were collecting physically with pen and paper your feedback about what you liked and what you didn't like and what you thought of the price and how it fit. And so, the data element was always super important, but you know, I don't think we were employing true, you know, data science, I would say, until, I mean, I don't know if that's fair though, because Eric, who, Eric joined us in 2012.

• 32:54Guy Raz?

  Eric.

• 32:54Speaker 00

  And Eric Colson, who.

• 32:55Guy Raz?

  He was at Netflix before.

• 32:57Speaker 00

  He was at Netflix.

• 32:58Guy Raz?

  And he was a data guy at Netflix and you're thinking, wow, I mean, that doesn't get better than Netflix. They know what you want to watch before you even grab the remote control.

• 33:07Speaker 00

  Right, and especially at the time, this is before they were doing original content, like their whole thing was algorithms and recommendations. And he was like, at Netflix, we show you like 100 recommendations at once. And he was like, we were just having this conversation where like, if we were really bold, we would only show you five or three. Or if we were really bold, when you open Netflix, we would just start playing the content that you would want to play. And he was like, that's kind of what you're doing here with clothes. And so, he was very attracted to the fact that recommendations were like actually at the core of what we were doing.

• 33:37Guy Raz?

  Were you able to describe your company in shorthand? Or did you ever describe it as sort of like the Netflix for clothes?

• 33:43Speaker 00

  I don't know that I really used that, honestly. But, you know, I think there are elements, like we were, 100% of our revenue is tied to recommendations. Like, that's a very compelling thing to a data scientist who loves recommendations, feeling like that's going to be at the core of what we're doing.

• 33:59Guy Raz?

  At what point did you become profitable?

• 34:03Speaker 00

  We turned profitable, we had a profitable quarter, I think in 2014.

• 34:08Guy Raz?

  So, it took you three years to actually become profitable, which is super fast.

• 34:13Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 34:14Guy Raz?

  How much do you think about competition? Because there are all kinds of potential competitors out there. The obvious one being Amazon, it's massive. And they put their fingers in every pie. What's the killer app or the thing that you guys have that makes you sustainable and resistant to big challenges?

• 34:42Speaker 00

  Yeah, I would say that we pay attention to but don't obsess over competition. And I think when we think about what's special about Stitch Fix, it's the one-to-one human connections and the recommendations at the heart of it. And so some of the things that are really hard in today's e-commerce are like, if you want to find a pair of jeans that fit you, it's not a great user experience to have literally a million pairs of jeans to choose from and try to filter and sort through those. And that's an example of a place where the human element of like, these jeans have stretch or these jeans don't have stretch. And these are great for people who are your height, and we know that with data. All of those attributes are hugely important in helping you find which one of those millions

• 35:27Speaker 00

  of pairs of jeans are the right ones for you. And so there's the transacting part of e-commerce, but before the transaction, there's the discovery of like, what is the thing that you're going to love? And that is a really hard problem to solve in today's e-commerce and one that I think we are uniquely good at solving.

• 35:43Guy Raz?

  How many people, by the way, work for Stitch Fix today?

• 35:45Speaker 00

  We have over 5,000 employees.

• 35:48Guy Raz?

  Wow. And how do the stylists work? Because you've got this hybrid model, where all these humans are collaborating with algorithms, right?

• 35:57Speaker 00

  Yeah, we have over 3,000 stylists. And the way Stitch Fix works of the integration of humans and data is that they're both very richly combined. And we see it as they both are uniquely good at different things. And so... Like a stylist should never have to worry about like, do you hate yellow or love yellow? Like, the data can take care of that. And so the--

• 36:19Guy Raz?

  I answered, "I hate yellow," by the way, in my Stitch Fix. Yellow and salmon. I'm not going to wear salmon.

• 36:25Speaker 00

  Well, the, I mean, the stylist can see that, but the data is going to exclude that from being able to be even available to your stylist. And so the stylist will layer on his or her own judgment over those recommendations to choose the right things for you. And so in some cases, the data science is going to be really accurate in like, trying to figure out which jeans are best for you, for example, is a place where data science is enormously helpful. And then there are other times when the stylist is layering on human judgment.

• 36:53Guy Raz?

  You took this company public last November.

• 36:57Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 36:57Guy Raz?

  And again, like, everyone, you know, people are talking about the first, right? Youngest female CEO to ever take a company public. You know, probably this year, you will appear on Forbes' list of wealthiest self-made women. As you became more and more prominent and the company became more profitable and you started to get more attention, all of a sudden, you were sort of a successful woman in tech kind of symbol. Did that irritate you? Or did you embrace it initially? Or how did you feel about that?

• 37:37Speaker 00

  You know, that's an interesting one, where I think my mind has changed, maybe even in the last year or two years. At first, I was really resistant to it. Like, I really didn't like being a successful female CEO. Like, I was like, "I just want to be a successful CEO." And, you know, I think what's changed about it now is that when I wrote my application essay to HBS, like, I wrote about Meg Whitman, a female CEO. And like, there were so few people, like, I still very much admire her, and I did admire her then, but there were very few people for me to choose from in saying like, who I want to be like. And now, the, being able to be part of what--

• 38:23Speaker 00

  Opens people's lens of possibility more, I think, is really powerful. And so I think now, like, I'm, I don't know, kind of proud to be able to be part of that. And like, I'm very happy to wear that label. And I'm very, you know, I think it's good for people to be able to see more examples of what success can look like that maybe are different from what it's looked like in the past.

• 38:48Guy Raz?

  There was a story, I don't know when it came out, maybe a year or so ago, that at a certain point in your journey to raise money, you experienced harassment from a prominent partner at a prominent venture capital firm. They released a statement eventually saying something like, you know, we should have done better, or something like that. Was that a common experience for you?

• 39:09Speaker 00

  Well, I can't speak to that specific example. But, you know, I think that there were real challenges with the power dynamic, I think, of, you know, who has the power and who has the money and who doesn't.

• 39:22Guy Raz?

  Was it mostly you standing in front of a room of men?

• 39:26Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's mostly true, yeah. And I think that there are elements of it that just feel structurally unfair, that I don't think get solved unless you change the proportion of men and women that are in leadership roles in venture capital. And so, you know, I mean, there are examples where, like, I was, I was at a conference, and Chris Sacca was on stage. Like, there are hundreds of people in the room, like, this isn't a secret, he was saying this publicly.

• 39:49Guy Raz?

  And Chris Sacca, he's a venture capitalist, right?

• 39:51Speaker 00

  Yeah. And like, one of the things he was saying was, he was like, look, like, I'm, you know, I'm not a typical venture capitalist, like, I don't have an office in San Francisco. Like, I just, I live up in Tahoe, and like, you know, entrepreneurs, they come to me. And like, they come and hang out with me in Tahoe, and they like, drink beers in my hot tub, and like, I get to know them and their businesses. And like, you know, there's part of that, that you're like, oh, cool, like, that's different. But like, if you think about it, like, I'm sitting in the audience, and like, I think I was pregnant at the time. And I'm like, sitting in the audience, I'm pregnant, I'm like... I'm not going to come meet you in a bikini and I can't even come into your hot tub because I'm pregnant and I can't drink your beers because I'm pregnant. And like, you know, there's just all of these structural elements that like just make it harder and more challenging and like, you know, you just realize like, well, I guess

• 40:33Speaker 00

  I'm never going to be able to be in his pipeline and like, that's OK, but like, it's just, they're fewer and it's just challenging.

• 40:40Guy Raz?

  You know, and there's like a tone deafness, right? And I, I'm wondering if since, you know, more and more of this stuff is coming out and more people are talking about it, and we've had Jen Hyman on the show and she's talked about her experiences with Rent the Runway, whether some of that is trickling down in a way that's starting to change behavior. I don't know. Do you, are you hearing that in any way?

• 41:06Speaker 00

  I certainly hope it is. And I don't want to make it seem like everything is super unfair and that everybody's a creep. Like, that's, that's really not the case. I've had great partnerships with venture investors and by and large, I think people have good intentions. I do genuinely hope that it's, it's getting better and that people are at least more aware. And so, you know, my hope is at least being able to see the success stories creates another pattern recognition for venture investors.

• 41:32Guy Raz?

  I just want to get back to something that you alluded to earlier, which is that in the midst of all this, like in the midst of building this company, you got married and had a child, too.

• 41:42Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 41:43Guy Raz?

  You became a mom. And how old's your kid now?

• 41:45Speaker 00

  He is 17 months.

• 41:47Guy Raz?

  I mean, that's a lot to balance.

• 41:49Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's a lot. And it is, I don't know that I ever actively was thinking, like, I have this company and like, I also need to have my life and, you know, I, but it was, like, I, in the time of the company, I met my husband, I got married, I had a baby. Like, you know, I've gone through a lot of life transitions through the company and, and I think it's really healthy because I think, you know, in a lot of ways, your company feels like you're Kind of baby and your only thing. And I think I was, I don't know, lucky, fortunate, like, you know, whatever it is to be able to have had the space in my life to also be able to do, you know, to have those milestones.

• 42:27Guy Raz?

  To be a mom, yeah. So I should admit that I get knocked sometimes from some of our listeners, particularly women who listen, who say, you know, you don't ask men about their children as much as you ask women. And so I've been more mindful about doing that. I think the one difference, though, is that, you know, as a woman, you are carrying the child for nine months and running the company. I mean, that's, that's very different. That is a, that's a really, that's a challenge. I mean, physically, it's challenging, and then you also have to put your emotional energy into your business.

• 43:00Speaker 00

  Yeah. No, it's, and it's different. You know, like, you show up at meetings and you're like eight months pregnant.

• 43:06Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 43:07Speaker 00

  And like, you know, people didn't really know how to react to that.

• 43:09Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 43:10Speaker 00

  And like, had a hard time navigating it. And I don't blame them because it's like, it's different.

• 43:14Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 43:15Speaker 00

  And like, I took a 16-week maternity leave. I was out of the office for 16 weeks.

• 43:19Guy Raz?

  Wow. And you really unplugged?

• 43:21Speaker 00

  Yeah, I mean, I, there are a couple of things that I did. I did some recruiting things. Like, there are some things that as CEO, like, only I could do. But like, I pretty much didn't set foot in the office for 16 weeks. And, you know, that's the example that I have a very female employee base. Like, you know, if I'm not honoring the maternity leave policy that we have, like, how are people going to feel comfortable?

• 43:40Guy Raz?

  Mm-hmm.

• 43:41Speaker 00

  Like, you know, feeling like it's the right thing to do.

• 43:43Guy Raz?

  Totally, yeah.

• 43:44Speaker 00

  To take 16 weeks.

• 43:45Guy Raz?

  You know, there's something that, that I want to ask you about, which is that, pretty early on in building this company, you, you parted ways with your co-founder. What's the story? I mean, did you guys just have a different sense of what you wanted to do with the company?

• 44:02Speaker 00

  Um, yeah. So my co-founder and I, we parted ways in the summer of 2012. And it was, I mean, I, you know, there's probably not a lot of specifics I can share on it, but like, it was really hard. And it... Like in a divorce, you talk about like irreconcilable differences.

• 44:18Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 44:19Speaker 00

  And like, I feel like through that, I really understood what that meant of like, if you can be in a place where you really deeply care for somebody, and at the same time, you see things so differently and you can't, you just can't see the future in the same way.

• 44:35Guy Raz?

  Do you, do you think that, that people who start up businesses are better off doing it on their own?

• 44:43Speaker 00

  No, I don't know. I mean, starting a company is such a team sport. And, you know, I look back and I could not have done it without the many employees who believed in it, the many clients who believed in it, the like, my friends who, I didn't go to their wedding because I was like too poor and too busy at the time. And like, you know, I mean, there's just like, it's such a team sport and you have to surround yourself with people who help you to achieve those goals. And, you know, does that mean you have to have a co-founder or not? Like, I don't, I don't know, but like, I couldn't imagine having done it without having a network of people who believe.

• 45:22Guy Raz?

  Katrina Lake, founder of Stitch Fix, a company which, by the way, is now valued at over $2 billion. And on the day the company actually went public, Katrina had some help from her one-year-old. He was ringing the NASDAQ bell while she was holding him.

• 45:39Speaker 00

  He was holding this stuffed animal and I was holding him during the dress rehearsal, like practicing the, you know, going through the motions. And he was like really chill and happy to be up there. And I was kind of like, all right, we're gonna do it this way. He's gonna be up here and this is how we're gonna do it.

• 45:53Guy Raz?

  I thought you were gonna say he spit up all over me in the dress rehearsal.

• 45:57Speaker 00

  I mean, that, that's the funny thing is like, if I had planned to have him up there, there's no way it would have worked. Like, he was, yeah, he's like, he's a year old or whatever. Like, he wasn't gonna cooperate, but the stars aligned and it worked.

• 46:16Guy Raz?

  And stick around because in just a moment, we're going to hear from you about the things you're building.

• 46:23Guy Raz?

  Hey, thanks for sticking around because it's time now for how you built that.

• 46:30Guy Raz?

  This is Brian Sonia Wallace tapping away on his vintage Smith Corona typewriter in his apartment in Los Angeles. He uses it for his business, which is writing poetry on demand.

• 46:42Speaker 02

  Poetry is like the ultimate non-commercial art form. You know, unless you're a professor or an Instagram celebrity poet, you're really not usually making a living doing this.

• 46:54Guy Raz?

  But about four years ago, Brian sort of stumbled into the poetry business when he was laid off from his job writing grants for a nonprofit. He'd always liked writing poetry, so he thought, hey, you know, maybe I should just set up a typewriter in public and sell my poems to people passing by.

• 47:12Speaker 02

  I thought, OK, let me see if I can pay my rent for one month. It was this experiment in whether you could make any money off of this poetry thing.

• 47:24Guy Raz?

  So Brian started to show up at arts festivals and other events around town with his typewriter and a small table.

• 47:30Speaker 02

  I originally had a sign that said, "Give me a topic, I'll write you a poem, pay me what you think it's worth."

• 47:36Guy Raz?

  And it turns out, people would pay anywhere between $5 and $40 for a custom poem about their boyfriends or their girlfriends, even about their dogs. Anyway, by the end of that month, Brian had earned enough money to pay his rent and his utilities.

• 47:52Speaker 02

  And it was funny because after the month, I was like, OK, well, now I'm going to hang my typewriter up and focus on other things. And I kept getting calls from either people who I had met on the street or people who had seen something about it, asking me to do private events.

• 48:08Guy Raz?

  But when it came to private events, Brian had no idea what to charge.

• 48:13Speaker 02

  And I remember there were a couple early ones. One in particular, I remember I did like an investment banking conference. And I didn't really understand that you could set a baseline price and that people had budgets and would pay for event entertainment.

• 48:28Guy Raz?

  Brian even scored a gig at the Mall of America, where people lined up for custom poems, including one particularly interesting customer.

• 48:37Speaker 02

  Did my usual open, hi, how are you? What do you need a poem about? She thought for a minute, she said, you know, I've actually just come from a week-long silent meditation retreat. It was really intense and emotional, and so I just came to get some Dippin' Dots as a reward.

• 48:53Guy Raz?

  So Brian got to work.

• 48:57Guy Raz?

  And a few minutes later, he presented her with the poem.

• 49:01Speaker 02

  It's scary how hectic a week of silence can be. Left alone with our thoughts and no release valve, do we implode?

• 49:12Guy Raz?

  That woman ended up hugging Brian after he read her that poem. Apparently, it happens to him a lot.

• 49:18Speaker 02

  Finding a lightness that starts deep in the core of my belly and ends with Dippin' Dots at the mall.

• 49:31Guy Raz?

  Brian Sonia Wallace's business is called Rent Poet. This year, he expects to make about $30,000. And he no longer does this solo. He works with a whole team of freelancers who make money with poetry. If you want to hear Brian's entire poem, you can visit our Facebook page. And of course, if you want to tell us your story, go to build.npr.org. And thanks for listening to our show this week. If you want to find out more or hear previous episodes, you can go to howibuiltthis.npr.org. Please also subscribe to our podcast at Apple Podcasts or however you get your podcasts. You can also write us, [email protected]. Our Twitter address is at How I Built This.

• 50:15Guy Raz?

  Our show was produced this week by Randa Abdelfatah. Ramtin Arablouei composed the music. Thanks also to Niva Grant, Sanaz Meshkhanpour, Thomas Lu, and Jeff Rogers. Our intern is Noor Kudsi. I'm Guy Raz, and you've been listening to How I Built This from NPR.