Mel Robbins: Best Selling Author shares story behind “Let Them” with Ryan Clark, Channing & Fred, talks parenting, relationships, hitting rock bottom and how we all are 5 seconds away from changing our life

“I have to learn things the hard way. In order to learn the message, I have to destroy everything. Everything I learned, I learned the hard way by f*%king up my own life.” Mel Robbins Do we have a show for you!! Ryan, Channing and Fred are honored and grateful to sit with Best selling author, #1 on NY Times, Amazon, Audible, a top podcast host, amazing mother, wife and our friend- Mel Robbins! This is one of the most authentic, transformative and kick-ass conversations we’ve had. We laugh, we learn, tears are shed (guess who?) and we go far beyond the surface of what we think to revealing what we actually feel. Pivot Family- Please take our word, this episode is one you need to tap into. The conversation we have is humbling, emotional, difficult at times but invigorating and impacted us more than we imagined. Truly, there is something in this show for everyone that will speak to you and maybe even ignite a change. We all know the things in our life we would like to alter, improve or we can recognize as areas we fall short, but how do we step out of our comfort zone, regain control and actually take the step toward change? Mel’s journey from rock bottom to global influence is a story of resilience, self-discovery, and hard-earned wisdom. Opening up about the lowest points in her life: losing her job at 41 to being $800,000 in debt to feeling like a failure as a parent on verge of divorce, Mel reflects on the shame and frustration of hiding her struggles from family and friends while finding herself trapped in a hole not knowing how to climb out. Opening up to the guys, she shares how this rock-bottom moment became the foundation for her transformation, helping her discover the tools and mindset shifts she now teaches to millions. Throughout the conversation, Mel details the power of her 5 Second Rule—a simple practice that helped her overcome hesitation and take action in critical moments. She also explains how The High 5 Habit can rewire self-doubt into self-love. Together with the hosts, Mel discusses tough topics like parenting during financial struggles, rebuilding relationships after misdirected anger, and the importance of owning your ambitions rather than placing them on others. This episode is packed with raw truths, practical advice, and emotional breakthroughs. Mel shares how facing pain, letting go of control, and embracing the hard decisions now can lead to a happier and more fulfilling future. Whether you’re looking for strategies to pivot in your own life or seeking inspiration to keep going, this conversation will remind you that change is possible, no matter how far you’ve fallen. As we always say, it's never too late to Pivot.... You can tell yourself, even the people close to you can say all the things you need to work on but listening to this conversation will really help you lock in and understand the secret to change and importance of embracing the bonds you have with loved ones, because in the end, who’s going to be there and how do you want to be remembered? Let us know what you think when you watch and listen. Don't forget to hit the Subscribe button on YouTube and follow us on all audio platforms. Pick up a copy of Mel's latest book "Let Them" or download it on Audible to get more insight surrounding the stories and topics we discussed. “It is a fundamental part of human nature, that pain is part of what’s necessary to push yourself to change.” Mel Robbins Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Flowing ad budget on metrics that look great till the CFO sees them? That's bull spend. And marketers are calling it out in Dashboard Confessions.

• 0:09Speaker 01

  I remember telling my boss, "It'll be good for the brand," when leads were slow. Yeah, it wasn't.

• 0:17Speaker 00

  Cut the bull spend. LinkedIn lets you target by company, job title, and more. Advertise on LinkedIn. Spend $250 on your first campaign and get a $250 credit. Go to LinkedIn.com/campaign. Terms and conditions apply.

• 0:30Channing Crowder?

  That's been working for me.

• 0:31Speaker 03

  What? You guys are sitting down?

• 0:32Ryan Clark?

  What's happening?

• 0:33Speaker 03

  Oh, man. Hi.

• 0:35Fred Taylor?

  How's it going?

• 0:36Speaker 03

  Whoa.

• 0:36Channing Crowder?

  It's good.

• 0:37Speaker 03

  It's great to meet you.

• 0:38Channing Crowder?

  Big time, a pleasure to meet you.

• 0:38Speaker 03

  Thank you.

• 0:39Ryan Clark?

  How are you?

• 0:39Speaker 03

  Oh, my God, thank you.

• 0:40Fred Taylor?

  So good to meet you.

• 0:41Speaker 03

  It's so great to meet you.

• 0:43Ryan Clark?

  So I'm gonna tell you this now.

• 0:44Channing Crowder?

  Yes, ma'am.

• 0:45Speaker 03

  Oh, shit. It's so good to meet you. You're so tall.

• 0:48Channing Crowder?

  Yeah, well, you know.

• 0:49Ryan Clark?

  Now, Ms. Mel.

• 0:50Speaker 03

  Why are we so far apart?

• 0:51Ryan Clark?

  Because that's how we feel, Ms. Mel.

• 0:53Speaker 03

  Okay, okay.

• 0:54Ryan Clark?

  Now, Ms. Mel, time out, though.

• 0:55Channing Crowder?

  We gotta give you your frame.

• 0:57Ryan Clark?

  You are famous.

• 0:59Speaker 03

  What?

• 0:59Ryan Clark?

  So listen, I'm just gonna be honest now.

• 1:00Speaker 03

  Okay, shit, what just happened? Oh, shit, I already knocked her in my teeth and I'm making stuff happen.

• 1:04Ryan Clark?

  Come on, Ms. Mel.

• 1:06Speaker 03

  I'm ruining shit at the suite you guys just bought.

• 1:09Ryan Clark?

  Come on, Ms. Mel.

• 1:10Speaker 03

  Let them.

• 1:11Channing Crowder?

  Let them.

• 1:12Ryan Clark?

  Let them. Let them.

• 1:14Speaker 03

  What do you mean, I'm famous?

• 1:15Ryan Clark?

  You're famous, so like, there's only been kind of one other person that showed up with this many people. And that's The Rock.

• 1:23Ryan Clark?

  That's the only person that has the team as big as yours.

• 1:26Speaker 03

  Oh, I'm embarrassed that that's the case. Now, I literally, it's because I need a chaperone. It's not because I... And it's also because I have ADHD, so all my shit is everywhere. So if I don't want to leave half my things in a hotel room.

• 1:38Ryan Clark?

  I like to study, be prepared. Now, we have somebody that's as famous as you and is great.

• 1:42Speaker 03

  I'm not famous.

• 1:43Ryan Clark?

  I'm gonna do, I'm gonna keep doing that to you because you bought 15 people. And so I was, I don't drink, right? I stopped drinking. And so I was like, well, you know what, though? I'm gonna relax, I'm gonna take an edible. And, you know, when I take this edible, I'm gonna study. Right, I'mma lock in. And I called Alicia, I was like, Alicia, there's nothing on Mel Robbins on the internet. I was like, I can't find a thing. And so then I just went to sleep.

• 2:09Speaker 03

  Was it like 100 milligrams? Is that how much you took?

• 2:11Ryan Clark?

  I don't know, so I just went to sleep in all my clothes. Right? And so then I woke up, I showered and I was getting my haircut. And I was like, I called Alicia, I was like, Alicia, there's stuff everywhere about Mel Robbins. Turns out, I was just too high to figure it out.

• 2:25Speaker 03

  You roofied yourself.

• 2:26Ryan Clark?

  I roofied myself.

• 2:49Ryan Clark?

  Thank you so much for joining us. We are very excited. I will be truthful. Whenever we get a comment from you or you mention us, we just screenshot it and send it to each other.

• 3:00Speaker 03

  Really?

• 3:00Ryan Clark?

  Yeah, so it's awesome to have you sitting here. So, welcome to The Pivot. This is Fred Taylor.

• 3:06Speaker 03

  I know who you are. I know, I did my homework.

• 3:08Ryan Clark?

  Okay.

• 3:09Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah, I did my homework. I looked at your YouTube, I looked at all your MRMs. I cataloged your interviews to see what was the most popular and what people talk about, and what the women talk about, what the guys talk about, and who's celebrity adjacent, who is sports adjacent. I came prepared.

• 3:25Ryan Clark?

  Okay, I love that.

• 3:26Speaker 03

  Yeah, I came to serve.

• 3:27Ryan Clark?

  But we want to know about you, though. And so, we played ball, right? And when you play ball, there was always sort of this connection between former players who coached and the players in the room. And so, for you, there is so much great advice that you give, and people want to connect to the people that are teaching them. What are some of those moments that led to you saying, okay, I need to find myself in order to be a whole individual and that have you where you are now?

• 3:56Speaker 03

  Wow, you're kind of opening with a whopper of a question.

• 3:59Ryan Clark?

  I mean, why we gotta wait?

• 4:00Speaker 03

  That's true.

• 4:01Ryan Clark?

  You already knocked stuff down, no?

• 4:02Speaker 03

  That's true, I did. I came in like a hot mess, which I think is the story of my life. See, I have to learn things the hard way. I don't know what it is about me, but in order to learn the message or the lesson, somehow, I gotta destroy everything. And so, my story is very simple. Everything that I talk about, I learned the hard way, by fucking up my own life. And in life, there are going to be times where you find yourself falling into a hole, or you did one for yourself, and you end up at the bottom of it. And in those moments where life is very, very hard, whether you're struggling in a relationship, or you're struggling with mental health issues, or you have blown through all of your money, and now you're in a mess financially,

• 4:46Speaker 03

  you will find yourself in life at the bottom of a hole. And in those moments, if you are like me, you wallow for a good six months to a year, and you feel sorry for yourself, and you bitch about how unfair life is, and you look around and you wish that somebody was going to come along and save you and fix your problems. And at some point, you wake up and realize that no one's coming. And if you want your life to change, you have to do something about it. And that realization hit me, even though it's common sense. And the truth is, I don't know who said this, but common sense isn't so common. And it's so easy to give advice. It is very difficult, when you're the one that's struggling, to actually do what you need to do.

• 5:31Speaker 03

  And so my story begins in terms of, you know, the Mel Robbins that people see now. This is kind of one of those stories that, yes, your life changes overnight, but it takes you 15 fucking years to get to that night when it changes, right? So my story begins on a Tuesday morning in February 2008. I'm 41 years old. We have three children under the age of 10. My husband has gone into the restaurant business to pursue his dream. He's opened up a small pizza restaurant outside of Boston, Massachusetts. The first one does really well. So like complete morons, we ignore everybody's advice. We cash out every bank account we have.

• 6:16Speaker 03

  We cash out the kids' college fund. We take out a home equity line, because that's free money. We get every credit card we can. We max that sucker out. We shove it all into the business. Because what could possibly go wrong? Right? Well, everything went wrong. And it was also around the end of 2007, 2008, when the financial crisis hit. And so the markets turned upside down. Our house went underwater. And next thing you know, I'm 41, I lose my job. We have friends and family that have invested. We are $800,000 in debt.

• 6:51Speaker 03

  We cannot pay our bills. We cannot put groceries on the table. I do not want to tell anybody that this is happening because they've put their money into this business. My husband is working night and day with his business partner and best friend to try to keep the doors open, to try to keep people paid, to, you know, because there's a certain amount of stress that you feel when the phone is ringing off the hook and it's debt collectors and there are bills on the counter and you know you have no money to pay those bills. And my favorite thing, it's not my favorite thing, but the thing that I started rehearsing, because he wasn't getting paid. I didn't have a job. Like, our house had leans on it now. We were pulling the kids out of town sports. You want to talk about a moment as a parent where you feel like a failure?

• 7:35Speaker 03

  You are pulling your kids out of town sports because you can't fucking pay the bill? And so, I would go to the grocery store and I knew we didn't have any money. And I hadn't told my parents yet. I hadn't told friends yet. Because when you're struggling, you know it. And you're also ashamed of where you are. And so, you hide it. And so, I would go to the grocery store. And I don't know if you guys have ever been in the situation where they're like scanning it and you're thinking, "Oh, my God. Like, I can't afford this." And then you pass over the card and you're thinking, "Please, let there be some kink in the electronic. Let this go through." And so, you know, you're like this. And the woman would say to you,

• 8:19Speaker 03

  "Oh, I'm sorry. It was declined." And I had this move rehearsed where I would literally wait and I would kind of cock my head and I would say, "Oh, well, that's weird." Because it just worked at the gas pump. And then I would turn to my kids and I would say, "Come on now. I'll be right back. You know, I've got another card in the car." And we would leave.

• 8:42Channing Crowder?

  I am.

• 8:43Speaker 03

  So, that was my life. You know, I think the other thing about life is that you never intend to screw it up.

• 8:52Speaker 03

  You know, if you've ever made a vision board, if you've ever made a list of goals,

• 8:57Speaker 03

  did you ever write down, "I'd like to be divorced." "I would love to be an alcoholic." "I think it would be great to be a million dollars in debt." I mean, that's not what you plan for. So when life goes off the rails, it's testing you.

• 9:11Channing Crowder?

  With that, though, like, you're so educated. Dartmouth, law degree from Boston College. Like, you're super intelligent.

• 9:20Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 9:21Channing Crowder?

  How can you let your life get to that point where you're so goddamn educated? Like, you should see something coming because there's no way any of us get a law degree from Boston College.

• 9:31Speaker 03

  Well, I don't think that's true. I don't think that's true.

• 9:34Channing Crowder?

  It's very true, man. I think you should kind of speak for yourself. You get your silly ass.

• 9:38Speaker 03

  I don't think that is true. I think if you decided that that was something you wanted to do, you would figure it out. I believe in the limitless possibility of human beings. I really do. I believe that what is in your way is you. What is in your way is despair. See, if somebody isn't changing, it's not because they can't. It's because they don't believe that it's going to work or they don't believe that it's going to matter. And that was me. Like, I got to the point where I didn't feel like anything was going to work because the hole was so big. So why bother? And to answer your question, the reason why you can be well-educated

• 10:23Speaker 03

  or smart and do stupid things is because knowledge is kind of cheap. Everybody knows what to do. Everybody. The person that's watching this video right now or listening to this podcast, they know exactly what to do to be healthier, to get out of debt, to achieve their goals. And if you don't know what to do, go to ChatGTP, write down what you want, and say, "Give me the day-to-day plan for six months that I should do. Tell me the five things." You will get a menu of things to follow, just like the NFL coach gives you the plays that you're going to practice and practice and practice. There are the things to do. So knowledge tells you what to do and why.

• 11:08Speaker 03

  That is very different than how. How do you make yourself apply the knowledge? When you don't feel motivated? How do you make yourself do the things that you know you need to do to get out of debt? Or to achieve your goals? I mean, you have so many people come on this show and they talk about their story of going from down here to up here. They are giving you the formula. That's knowledge. That's all that knowledge is. You gotta do something different. Which is how? How do you push yourself? When you don't feel motivated? When you've told yourself you're a loser? When you say that it's not gonna work? Where other people have said that you've screwed up? How do you do it then?

• 11:53Speaker 03

  That is what separates people who stay really low from people who figure out how to climb out of that hole. And I thank God every day that I had dumb luck or I was given this gift from God in one of my lowest moments to help me figure it out. Because everything that I talk about is kind of in two camps. It's either, how do you push yourself? So, all of the self empowerment. How do you push through your own excuses, your own bullshit? Your past, your story, your negativity? The things that have happened in your life? How do you do that for yourself? That's one camp that we can talk about. And the second thing that I'm talking about a lot now is, how do you stop trying to change other people?

• 12:38Speaker 03

  How do you stop trying to control other people? And actually, focus on changing and control on yourself? Those are the two things that my work focuses on. And so, the first one, let's talk about motivation. Motivation, complete and utter garbage. It's garbage. It is. Like, I think it's a joke that I'm called a motivational speaker. Because motivation is garbage. Because, here's what motivation is, you guys. Motivation, Fred, is just feeling like doing something.

• 13:08Speaker 03

  And when you have to push yourself to change, or to take a risk, or to break a bad habit, or to change the way that you talk to yourself, or the way that you're going to show up in your life, or you're going to address some things in your life that haven't been working, you are never going to feel like doing it. And what I learned the hard way is that we're just as human beings, not wired to do things that are painful, or hard, or new. The human body is wired to repeat patterns. And so, you know, when I think a lot about the NFL, for example, or your guys' past, and a lot of what you talk about on your show, you're a gifted athlete. So you have natural gifts and talents

• 13:53Speaker 03

  that you worked at, and worked at, and worked at, and worked at. And when you are playing on a team, the conditions for success and motivation are actually outsourced. You have a team, you have a coach, you have payment, you have other players. You want to make sure that you stay on that team. And so, all of that is provided for you. Yes, you have to show up. Yes, you still have to do the work. Yes, you still have to train very hard. Yes, you still have to push yourself. But have you noticed that as soon as you leave a team and that structure disappears, it's very difficult to do the same level of pushing for yourself? Actually, to tell you the story,

• 14:37Speaker 03

  let's go back to 2008. So it's a Monday night, and I am sitting in my house, and I'm watching television. And have you ever had a moment in your life, Channing, where things are so bad that you're actually giving yourself a pep talk out loud?

• 14:58Channing Crowder?

  No, I've had a pretty good life.

• 15:00Speaker 03

  Okay, yeah. Because you know where I'm going with this, which is, it's one thing to stand in a locker room and like, tell everybody else, "Holy shit." When you're sitting there yourself going, "All right, now, tomorrow morning, it's the new you." Tomorrow morning, you gotta, you gotta, you gotta look for a job. You gotta stop yelling at your husband. You gotta call your parents and tell them what's going on and ask for help. You gotta let your friends know how much you're struggling. You gotta call that doctor and get on some kind of medication.

• 15:28Ryan Clark?

  I've done that.

• 15:29Speaker 03

  Okay, so you know, you know, well, if you don't drink anymore, you've probably had those moments after a big night of drinking, right? Where you're like, that's it, no more drinking. Same thing, I was like, Mel, you gotta lay off the bourbon. And then I was like, by God, woman, when that alarm rings, you cannot lay in that bed like a human pot roast, marinating in fear. You cannot hit that snooze button five or six times every morning.

• 15:50Ryan Clark?

  Like, you're saying that, and you're talking about watching TV, and I kind of feel where this is going. When you're in that moment of despair and you're willing to draw from anything.

• 16:00Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 16:01Ryan Clark?

  How do you connect things like NASA launches to life in a way that it becomes not only a thought and a theory, but something that's actually tangible for yourself and for other people to live by?

• 16:16Speaker 03

  So, the question's an excellent one. Because what happens in this story is that I'm in this moment of despair. And the interesting thing about a rock bottom moment is that you know it's rock bottom because you hit something solid within yourself. And what you actually hit finally is the resolve that you need to change. And one of the things that I've learned recently by having some of these world-class psychiatrists and experts come on my show is this saying that I'll never forget, and I'm sure this will resonate with you, is that people only get sober when being drunk is harder than facing the things you're running from.

• 16:58Speaker 03

  It is a fundamental part of human nature that pain is part of what's necessary to organize the friction inside yourself to push yourself to change. Because we are wired to move towards what's easy. We're wired to move towards what feels good. That's why we sit on the couch instead of going for a run. That's why we scroll on social media instead of working on a business plan. That's why we watch your podcast and my podcast instead of starting our own. It's easier. In order to change, you have to accept a fundamental truth. You are going to have to do something that's very difficult now in order for life to be easier later. And we're not wired that way.

• 17:41Speaker 03

  And so there is a certain amount of pain that is required inside of a human being in order for you to want to push yourself. Let's just take the Nike tagline, "Just Do It," right? Most famous tagline in the world, most powerful tagline in the world. Three words, "Just Do It." What is the most powerful word of those three words? Do. Nope. Well, I guess you have to tell us now. Just. I'm gonna unpack this. So imagine if the tagline had been, "Do It." Be like, "Fuck you, I'm not doing it." Right? That's not that motivating. Think about "Just Do It." Just do it.

• 18:26Speaker 03

  See, what they're saying with the word "just" They're trying to make it feel like it's simple. I even think it's deeper. Yes, it's simple, but it's even deeper. Nike is acknowledging a universal problem that every human being has, that I had, that you've had. It's a moment of hesitation. See, the "just" acknowledges that you're standing on the sideline of life. The "just" acknowledges that you're watching the game. And they're saying, "I see you doubting yourself. I see you hesitating. I see that you're a little bit afraid.

• 19:09Speaker 03

  I see you standing there, holding yourself back." They're inviting you to get off the sidelines of life and step onto the field. "Just Do It" acknowledges your humanity. And without acknowledging that moment of hesitation that we all have, where we doubt ourselves, where we question, where we overthink, without acknowledging that, the "do it" part, that's like throwaway advice. This is so much more powerful because they're seeing your potential, they're seeing the possibility that gets wasted when you question and hold yourself back. And so for me, to go back to my story, I have this epiphany as I'm watching TV and I'm like, "You gotta get out of bed when that alarm rings." I know that, but I'm not doing it.

• 19:55Speaker 03

  And so, all of a sudden, this rocket ship launches across the television screen. I'm like, "Oh, my God, that's it. That's it. That's a sign from God. Tomorrow morning, when the alarm rings bells, you're gonna move so fast. You're just gonna launch out of bed like a rocket ship. You're not gonna be in that bed when that anxiety hits." Now, the truth is, I'd had four bourbon Manhattans that night. So it's probably the bourbon that gave me that idea, because it's kinda stupid, right? But for whatever reason, you guys, this one epiphany changed my life. And I do believe you are one decision away from a different life. The decision to stop drinking changes your life. The decision to launch a podcast changes your life. The decision to work on your attitude changes your life.

• 20:39Speaker 03

  Now, you gotta show up every day and do the reps, but the decision is what changes the direction. And so, that next morning, it was a Tuesday morning, and I almost missed it. My God, if I didn't see this, my life, I can't even, I'd be divorced. I'd lost everything I'd ever was meaningful in my life. This one insight changed everything. And once I show this to you, you'll never look at life the same again. Your whole life comes down to five-second windows. It's the moment between knowing what you need to do and actually doing it. And it defines everything.

• 21:21Speaker 03

  There's a five-second window between a moment where you feel motivated and all of a sudden, you're not. There's a five-second window between a moment of conviction and all of a sudden, five seconds later, you start to doubt. There's a moment between this five-second, like, feeling of courage and five seconds later, fear takes over. And so, that morning, the alarm goes off and I immediately remembered that dumb idea of launching out of bed. That was this moment of inspiration, right? This is where knowledge comes in. I gotta launch myself out of bed. But knowledge without action is nothing. And so I have this thought, I gotta get out of bed, the alarm rings. And then I make the fatal mistake.

• 22:06Speaker 03

  I start thinking about it instead of doing it. And when you start thinking about how you feel about something, your feelings and emotions come in. And inside this five-second moment of hesitation, this just do it moment. Anxiety, depression, procrastination, excuses, your bullshit stories, all the things that you feel, trauma if you've experienced it, all in this window. And if you think about something for longer than five seconds, you go from conscious thought to subconscious thought. I didn't know any of this shit back then. I know it now. I just knew I felt myself reaching for the snooze button as I thought, I don't want to get out of bed. It's cold, it's dark, it's like New England. Why do I want to get out of bed? How's this gonna help? And then all I did was start counting. That's all I did.

• 22:49Speaker 03

  I just went five, four, three, two, one. And then I got up. It was weird. It was the first time I got up when the alarm rang in six months. And so the next morning I tried it, it worked. The third morning I tried it, it worked. And I just kind of had this moment where I didn't think, oh, I'm gonna become a motivational speaker. I literally just thought, alright, you're about to lose everything you care about. What if God gave you this thing? What if this was a trick? What if this was something, Mel, that actually could work? Instead of being so resigned and like bitchy about things, what if you just trust? And so I made myself this promise that all day long,

• 23:34Speaker 03

  whenever I was in that moment where I knew, knowledge, what to do, but I didn't feel like doing it, I would just count backwards, five, four, three, two, one, and make myself do it. And so I walk into the kitchen, and my husband is standing there and he's looking for breakfast, right? Standing in front of the fridge. Have you ever had that experience? Where you see someone you love and you just want to kill them? You know, marriage?

• 24:00Channing Crowder?

  Yeah. Ah, no.

• 24:02Speaker 03

  Yeah, he's like, I'm not saying that on camera.

• 24:06Channing Crowder?

  To kill him, Mel, like, yeah.

• 24:08Speaker 03

  Well, you know what I mean.

• 24:09Channing Crowder?

  We'd be upset when he told him that again.

• 24:11Fred Taylor?

  This goes back to the pizza decision? Like, why did you have that feeling?

• 24:15Speaker 03

  Oh, I'll tell you, there's just so many reasons why. Because at that moment, I was blaming all our problems on him. And this will resonate for all you guys out there. That, you know, it's so easy to do this in life.

• 24:33Speaker 03

  And I'm sure you've seen that thing that when you point the finger out there, there's always three fingers pointing right back at you.

• 24:38Speaker 06

  Right.

• 24:38Speaker 03

  And that's something that's so irritating. It means the power's in you. It's easier to be scared and angry than it is to be afraid. And I think we've all been in those moments in our relationships where everything starts to build up and next thing you know, the person that you love the most, you've turned into your biggest enemy.

• 24:57Speaker 06

  Mm-hmm.

• 24:58Speaker 03

  And instead of being on the same side of the line, you somehow have put the person on the other side of the line. You know, the truth is, my husband was doing everything he could to try to figure this out. And I was so scared and I didn't know the things that I know now, so I just aimed everything back at him,

• 25:16Speaker 03

  which certainly doesn't help.

• 25:17Speaker 06

  Right.

• 25:18Speaker 03

  And so, in that moment, like, I knew I didn't want to be a major bitch. I knew I didn't want to be angry all the time. I knew that throwing all of that at him didn't empower him to try to do what he needed to do, to keep the business going, to get his employees paid, to figure out the situation. And by the way, I also had been his biggest cheerleader the whole time. But when things went south, I'm like abandoning ship. I mean, how awful is that? And so, I own that. I didn't, but here's the thing. I knew I didn't want to be acting like that. I didn't know how to bridge the gap

• 26:03Speaker 03

  between this knowledge and all of the crazy emotions and fears that I had. And, you know, it comes back to another thing that I really believe. I really do believe in the goodness of people and the fact that people want to do well. Like, nobody wants to be failing in life. Nobody wants to wake up and just feel like they're lost or they're stuck. But I never knew how to go from this kind of knowledge of the kind of person I wanted to be to truly taking the actions that changed me.

• 26:43Speaker 03

  And, you know, let's be real, I'm 56, you know, I think I'm a little older than you guys, but I... 15 years ago, you didn't go into a self-help aisle. I mean, what kind of a freak is buying that kind of a book? I mean, Jesus. Like, people weren't talking about therapy or mental health. Like, you know, you basically went to an institution if you had problems upstairs. Right. So, like, I'm not admitting any of this shit. Plus, I don't know how to go buy a book. I'm not really on... You know, the internet's out there, but it's not quite what it was today. So, there wasn't the Pivot Podcast. I couldn't hear people talking about this kind of stuff. So, I didn't know. And so, I do believe that everybody knows when they're struggling.

• 27:27Speaker 03

  I do believe that... I choose to believe this, that people do know when there's a difference between the kind of person they want to be and the way they're showing up in their life. I think what's missing for most people is what you're actually providing here, is conversations and resources that create a bridge between where you are and where you're meant to go.

• 27:48Speaker 07

  Here's your report.

• 27:49Speaker 08

  Oh, thanks, Jane. I wish I could hire someone just like you.

• 27:52Speaker 07

  Try LinkedIn Hiring Pro. It's more than a job board. It's like the recruiter you always wished you had. Hiring Pro uses real-time insights to match your role to LinkedIn's unique network of professionals and delivers a shortlist of best-fit candidates. You'll spend less time sorting applicants and more time talking to the right people.

• 28:09Speaker 08

  Let's do it. You're irreplaceable, Jane, but another you would be great.

• 28:13Speaker 07

  Hire right the first time. Post your job for free on LinkedIn today at LinkedIn.com/quality.

• 28:18Channing Crowder?

  I wanted to ask, speaking about relationships, though, you said that with your husband... Where, like, my whole thing, I've said it before, I don't believe in soulmates. I don't believe somebody was putting a desserts for me. I don't believe in all that.

• 28:28Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 28:28Channing Crowder?

  But there has to be compromise.

• 28:30Speaker 03

  Mm-hmm.

• 28:30Channing Crowder?

  There's gonna be something that you do that I don't like, something I like, you don't like, and you have to compromise that. And for your husband, like you're saying, you don't wanna give him stress, he doesn't wanna give you stress. But there's gonna be a midpoint where somebody has to let go or somebody has to deal with something.

• 28:47Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 28:48Channing Crowder?

  And how did you, how did you and your husband figure that out? Because I know you've talked about divorce before and all of that. Somebody is giving something in y'all's relationship.

• 28:57Speaker 03

  Yes, so it's an excellent question. And my answer is this. Don't look to the other person to change.

• 29:06Speaker 03

  If you want a relationship to change, stop trying to change the other person and change yourself.

• 29:12Speaker 03

  And for me, if I'm talking about that period of my life, I started counting backwards, five, four, three, two, one, to settle my own emotions so that I could at least start by speaking to this person that I love from a place of my values instead of being an emotional bitch all the time. And simply downshifting your energy. And remember who you chose.

• 29:40Speaker 03

  Like, we forget the person that we actually chose. They're still in there. And I hate the fact that so many of us reserve the worst of ourselves for our partners and our kids because we know they're gonna be there. And so, the five-second rule and counting backwards, five, four, three, two, one, gave me this tool, and that's an important thing. See, I have a lot of knowledge, but knowledge, again, doesn't mean anything if you can't apply it. And so, I like tools. I'm obsessed with finding shortcuts that help me access the better parts of me so that I can show up consistently in work or as a parent, or as a spouse,

• 30:25Speaker 03

  or as a friend, or as a colleague, in a way that makes me proud of myself. I spent way too long in my life wishing I could be different, but not knowing how. And so, to answer your question...

• 30:39Speaker 03

  I've learned after 54 years that the secret is not over there, it's in here. And that if you want a better relationship with somebody, stop bitching to your friends about them and look in the mirror and figure out how you can show up differently. Because that's where the power is. And I spent too long blaming my husband, or making him the enemy, or treating him as if he was against me. And we forget who we chose. And when I started going 5-4-3-2-1, it gave me a beat. Because I'm a bulldozer and Chris would just kind of go in the corner there. And the truth is, if you push too hard against somebody else, you don't motivate them, you actually create resistance to changing.

• 31:22Speaker 03

  And if you constantly are nagging at somebody, that's not love. Changing somebody isn't loving them. Learning how to let them be who they are, that's how you love somebody. That's how you choose somebody fully. And I didn't know how to do that until I discovered this thing that I'm talking about now, which is the let them theory. And learning to live your life in a way where you let other people be who they are. Let them be who they're not. Because your life gets better and your relationships get better when you learn that what people want from you isn't judgment. They don't want your worry. They don't want your pressure. Like, it's one thing if you're in a relationship on a team and a coach is telling you what to do.

• 32:06Speaker 03

  That is a relationship where the power dynamic is set and you have stepped into it. If you want your relationship with your partner, or your colleagues, or your kids, or a business partner to work, you gotta fucking learn how to let them be who they are. And choose that.

• 32:21Ryan Clark?

  I definitely don't want to put all of Chris's business out in the street.

• 32:26Speaker 03

  Oh, we can.

• 32:26Ryan Clark?

  Although you do sometimes.

• 32:27Speaker 03

  Come on, talk, I will.

• 32:28Ryan Clark?

  But I think the thought process of feeling like you want something, feeling like you understand something, and then actually having a conversation about living through it is where we learn so much. And you know, you mentioning seeing Chris in that moment, and let's just say, not necessarily liking him that much.

• 32:49Speaker 03

  No.

• 32:49Ryan Clark?

  We definitely don't want to kill him.

• 32:50Speaker 03

  Not at all. He didn't like me either, by the way.

• 32:51Ryan Clark?

  We definitely don't want to kill him. But you had an interesting perspective to me on open marriage.

• 32:58Ryan Clark?

  And how it's not just allowing someone in your bed, but into your life. What was exploring that sort of conversation or alternate way of living like for you?

• 33:12Speaker 03

  So you're talking about a piece that I wrote on CNN.com that had a really clicky title. That was something about my open marriage. And the twist in the article is that all we did was have a conversation about having an open marriage because we saw a opinion piece, I think that was written in another newspaper about somebody else. And I was literally like, I'm such a jealous bitch. There's no fucking way I could have an open marriage. And we ended up having this really interesting conversation about what is it actually, what would that actually look like? And I think at that point, God, we've probably been married, we're going to be married 29 years this year. Yeah.

• 33:51Ryan Clark?

  Congrats.

• 33:52Speaker 03

  Thank you.

• 33:52Ryan Clark?

  Yes.

• 33:53Speaker 03

  Thank you. That conversation was so interesting because I think in life, you get so obsessed, especially in today's world, and I worry about this a lot as a parent, with the surface level crap

• 34:10Speaker 03

  that you can create a very shallow existence in your life. And you can be chasing all these things that last a minute or an hour or one Instagram post. And you lose sight of what actually matters.

• 34:28Speaker 03

  And at the end of your life, I don't know how you guys feel. It's an interesting question that we should talk about, like if you think about your death.

• 34:36Ryan Clark?

  All the time.

• 34:37Speaker 03

  So what?

• 34:38Ryan Clark?

  We talked about it on the show.

• 34:39Speaker 03

  When you think about your death, who is surrounding you?

• 34:43Ryan Clark?

  My family. My kids, my wife. And those are the people I think about because those are the people I don't want to outlive. I think different though than most people, I've actually thought I was dying. So I've said the prayer. I've asked for forgiveness. I've asked God to keep the people I was leaving behind. So I think my perspective on it is different.

• 35:10Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 35:10Ryan Clark?

  I didn't pray about things. I didn't think about anything I've accumulated, nor anything that I've accomplished, right? I thought about what I was leaving. And in thinking about what you're leaving, you think about the present time, right? Because you don't get to come back and leave it.

• 35:26Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 35:26Ryan Clark?

  Right? You don't get to pass and say, oh, wait, God, wait. I didn't tell them this, or I didn't teach them this, or I didn't share this with them. And I think that's the thing that allows me to look at that moment differently than most people because I feel like I've already, not necessarily lived it, but I felt like I was headed toward it.

• 35:47Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah. No, it's important. I'm sure it's changed the way that you live now.

• 35:50Ryan Clark?

  Yes, ma'am.

• 35:51Speaker 03

  Channing, have you thought about it?

• 35:52Channing Crowder?

  No, not at all.

• 35:54Speaker 03

  All right. So you're on your deathbed. Like, who do you want around you?

• 35:58Channing Crowder?

  My kids, my wife, my sisters, my family. So the people that I know genuinely care about me, not from fame, not from sports, not from podcasting.

• 36:08Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 36:08Channing Crowder?

  Like, no matter what happened, no matter what I became, those people that I know have a real deep connection to me and me to them.

• 36:17Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 36:17Channing Crowder?

  Yeah.

• 36:18Speaker 03

  Fred, what about you?

• 36:19Fred Taylor?

  Pretty much the same, what the both of them have said. I was able to kind of put things in perspective. I've never really dealt with death until seeing my grandmother slowly disintegrate due to dementia and lying there at her deathbed and all of us around. So I think I would, I see the pain that it brought us, brought my family. I don't want them to have to go through that. I don't want to be the person burying any of my family members, you know, my wife, my children, or anything like that. So I would prefer that they would be at my deathbed.

• 36:58Fred Taylor?

  Not going through what we all went through seeing my grandmother, but I do understand that it's just one of those things that happens in life.

• 37:05Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 37:06Channing Crowder?

  What's the right answer?

• 37:07Speaker 03

  I don't think there is one. See, I think this is a deeply important and personal question. Because when you get out of the moment, and this is kind of, this is an answer to your question. When you get out of the moment of what are your kind of shallow desires right now in this moment? And you time travel to what you hope is happening at the end of your life, at your death? You will see what actually matters beneath the surface. You're not going to have all these people that you had orgasms with, or the cars that you bought, or any of the other shit that we all chase. And, you know, you said, I don't want... You said something about, there was a specific way you said it, Fred, that was really beautiful about your death,

• 37:49Speaker 03

  and how you don't want your death to really crush them. I think the way we show up in life every day often crushes the people we care about.

• 38:03Speaker 03

  And so if you really think about your character and what you value, there is an opportunity to use your death. As weird as that sounds, my husband actually is a death doula. This is, you know, one of the things that he has studied, and that he does, and works with men in particular, around their legacy and the end of their life. And at the end of your life, you all said what the research bears out in terms of when they talk to people on their deathbeds, and when they look at studies of what makes for a meaningful life for people. It's not about the money. Yes, a certain amount of money is a great thing. It's actually about your relationships. And whether or not you're proud of yourself.

• 38:45Ryan Clark?

  Ms. Mill?

• 38:45Speaker 03

  Yes?

• 38:46Ryan Clark?

  And not to cut you off.

• 38:47Speaker 03

  No, please.

• 38:48Ryan Clark?

  It would seem to me, or the feeling for me, isn't necessarily...

• 38:54Ryan Clark?

  Who is there, but how they're there and why they're there. You know, in the sense of, I don't want them to be there out of obligation or familial connection. I don't want them to be there because of blood, right? It's more to me about what they're feeling and what they're saying and what their actions bear, rather than just their presence. And I think in order to have that reflect in a way that you want it to, it's about all of those things and how you show up for them as well.

• 39:25Speaker 03

  Yes, a thousand percent. And this is the opportunity. And this was this huge breakthrough that I had two years ago that has just absolutely turned my life upside down. It has improved my marriage in ways that I can't even imagine. It was possible. And, you know, just to put the final loop on your question about that article that I wrote, is that we, my husband and I did have a conversation like, "Do you want an open marriage? Would you ever want one like that?" And aside from the fact that I'm just psycho jealous and wouldn't be able to handle it, I realized that underneath the orgasm and the chase and all of that stuff that seems so alluring,

• 40:07Speaker 03

  what you're actually doing is giving somebody access to the sacred thing that you just talked about, which is that circle of people that are around you when you die that actually matter. And that's why I wrote that article, as a way to get people to think about the deeper thing that's available to you in a relationship, which is available to you right now. And it's exactly what you just said. And it wasn't until I discovered this let them theory that I discovered a tool to help me change how I showed up to fully own my power and the power that you each have in every relationship that you have.

• 40:49Speaker 03

  And, you know, I for years was working against human wiring. I for years thought worrying about people, pressuring them, controlling them, being judgmental, trying to motivate them, that that's somehow how you get other people to change. It's actually the opposite. The way that you get people to change, believe it or not, and the way that you improve your relationships is let people be who they are. Just let them. It's really that simple. And I did not know this until I was 54 years old. And I kinda know it. You kinda know that you're supposed to just accept people as they are, right? Because, you know, as you're talking, I'm like, mm-hmm, mm-hmm. How the fuck do I do that? Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Right? Because we're all emotional and moody and we all get tired and hangry.

• 41:32Speaker 03

  And, you know, we all have lots of stuff coming on. And how many times have you come home and apologized to your partner or to your kids? Sorry, I'm so stressed out, work, it's just a lot. I mean, imagine a world where your kids or your partner said to you, hey, I'm really sorry about what work's doing to you, Dad, but you're gonna have to apologize to me for how your work stress is impacting me. Like, that's a whole new world.

• 41:54Ryan Clark?

  Was this Oakley's prom that this happened?

• 41:57Speaker 03

  Yes, yes.

• 41:58Ryan Clark?

  You've been a helicopter mom, weren't you?

• 41:59Speaker 03

  I was. So, we got three kids, 25, 23, he's 19 now. And this was our last, and it was his prom. And I never thought that I would discover something that would change my life at a frickin' high school prom. But it was his prom, and I was just being one of those annoying moms, right? Where I'm like shoving the corsage thing at his date, and I'm micromanaging where everybody's going. And, you know, you can tell that he's like embarrassed because I'm one of those freaks that's standing there pushing everything on him. Luckily, our daughter was home from college, and she just grabbed me. And she looked at me, and she's like, wow, you're being so annoying. Like, let them. Like, let them not do whatever.

• 42:44Speaker 03

  Let them go where they want. Let them do this. And she kept saying, let them, let them, let them. And there was just this effect of the way she said it. I don't know. It like happened at a cellular level. I was just like, oh, why do I care? Let them. And that's not what really changed my life. What changed my life is, over the course of the next week, anytime I felt pissed off, or frustrated, or annoyed, or hurt, or worried, or whatever, I would just say, "Let them." Like, have you ever been at a grocery store, and there's like, five people in front of you, and there's one cashier, and it's like, "Beep, beep, beep." I mean, you seem pretty chill.

• 43:29Speaker 03

  But like, when that starts to happen, how do you feel in your body?

• 43:32Fred Taylor?

  Chill.

• 43:33Speaker 03

  Chill? Are you in the same school? Oh my god.

• 43:36Fred Taylor?

  This book is perfect, it's perfect for me. It's everything that I am.

• 43:40Speaker 03

  I love that. How did you get that way?

• 43:42Fred Taylor?

  It's always been me. I was gonna try to ask you, what's the difference in, because I like to say, "No fucks." Like, "No fucks given." Like, what's the difference in just let them, and no fucks given? Because my demeanor's always been, I care about everyone.

• 43:56Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 43:56Fred Taylor?

  Like, absolutely. But I also will give them their space, and just kinda let them figure it out. "Let them fall on their faces," is what I always say about my children.

• 44:06Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 44:06Fred Taylor?

  And then, if it hurts enough, they'll get up and figure it out.

• 44:09Speaker 03

  That's right, that's right. Here's how they work together. "No fucks given" is the "let them" part. But there's a second part to this, which is, "Let me." So, as you're standing in that line, and you're starting to feel frustrated, every one of us on the planet, except for Fred, is feeling very frustrated. Or you, if you had a 100-milligram gummy. And so, yes, the indica kind, not the sativa one, because you'd be bouncing around if you had that one. And so, what happens in that moment, as you're stressed by traffic, or your mother-in-law's mood, or you're worried about your kid, is that somebody else's behavior, or some situation outside of you, is now draining your time and energy.

• 44:55Speaker 03

  And for most people in the world today, the research is wild. Seventy percent of people are living in a chronic state of fight or flight. We are not designed to live like that. That's why anxiety is through the roof. It's why burnout is through the roof. It's why depression is through the roof. That the amount of uncertainty, the amount of stimulation online, the headlines coming out of the pandemic, the economy, people are bracing. And if you're tired all the time or overwhelmed, or you watch the pivot and you see everybody achieving these things, but you can't seem to get out of your own way, I got news for you. The problem isn't you. The problem is all this power you give to other people, to their drama, to their thoughts,

• 45:39Speaker 03

  their opinions, to their actions. How much power you give to your past, how much power you give to the shit going on outside of you. And until you stop giving your power to those things, you will never have the power to change yourself. And so even something as simple as standing in that line, if you allow that to frustrate you, you have just given something stupid all your energy. And this happens a thousand times a day for people. So when you say let them, or no fucks given, you release. And let them is you detaching from this and saying, I can't control this, therefore I am not going to try to. I'm going to let it happen. And then you say let me. And this is where the power comes in.

• 46:24Speaker 03

  Because let me is where you take the power from that thing and you pull it back here and you go, let me remind myself there are three things I can always control in life, and only three things. I can control what I think about this. I can control what I do or I don't do. Because let me remind everybody that you have the power anytime you want to leave a conversation, to leave a job, to leave a relationship, to leave a text chain, to leave a dinner table, to leave an interview. You always have the power in what you do or don't do in response to something. And you also can control how you decide.

• 47:00Speaker 03

  To respond to your emotions. Are you gonna let them run you over and rage text at somebody? Flip somebody off in traffic? Or are you gonna let them? And then say, "Let me. This is not worth my time and energy. No fucks given to this motherf**er because I value my time and energy."

• 47:12Speaker 00

  Flowing ad budget on metrics that look great till the CFO sees them? That's bullspend. And marketers are calling it out in Dashboard Confessions.

• 47:22Speaker 01

  I remember telling my boss, "It'll be good for the brand," when leads were slow. Yeah, it wasn't.

• 47:29Speaker 00

  Cut the bullspend. LinkedIn lets you target by company, job title, and more. Advertise on LinkedIn. Spend $250 on your first campaign and get a $250 credit. Go to LinkedIn.com/campaign. Terms and conditions apply.

• 47:42Channing Crowder?

  But I will push back on Fred. And I wanted to get to the social media side of this because you brought up Instagram earlier. One post doing this and doing that. Well, Fred really is laid back, but he will send us screenshots of comments that people say about our show. And things like that where I'm like, "Who cares?" And I've said it a number of times. I'm like, "Who cares what this person said?"

• 48:04Fred Taylor?

  To be fair to me, I don't send them in frustration. I send them more so to share it. Sometimes my responses are to...

• 48:13Channing Crowder?

  You get upset?

• 48:14Fred Taylor?

  No, no. My responses are to try and, one, just correct whomever the commenter is. Because I've seen, you know, RC do it, myself do it. But I try and tell them...

• 48:26Channing Crowder?

  Why do you gotta bring me into it?

• 48:27Fred Taylor?

  No, no, that they're wrong.

• 48:29Channing Crowder?

  But what does it matter if they're wrong or right? It's kind of like to let them. Let them do whatever the hell they want to say.

• 48:35Fred Taylor?

  That's perfect. Perfect. But sometimes you have to let them know when they're wrong.

• 48:40Channing Crowder?

  Why?

• 48:41Ryan Clark?

  I think it's the...

• 48:42Channing Crowder?

  Why do you have to let them know?

• 48:43Ryan Clark?

  And listen, we're here from Miss Mel, so I'm sorry.

• 48:45Speaker 03

  Oh, no, no, no. I love this because I've got a lot to say about this. So keep going.

• 48:48Ryan Clark?

  But the thing is this, though. It's just like I said on our last show, New Year's Eve, though. Like, in some things... I don't feel like I have to let you affect me and move on in life like you didn't. I don't feel like I have to let you feel like you get to pop off. And I gotta accept whatever I feel from that. And you just get to go on living your life without. No, what I'm not concerned with is the part that involves you, right? I'm actually not concerned with how you receive this. I'm not concerned with whether or not you understand it. Whether or not it has now changed your mind or you agree with me. What I'm concerned with is I'm not gonna live with this feeling without letting it out.

• 49:33Ryan Clark?

  And it's not about letting you do anything. It's about what she said. I can control what I think about it and I can control what I do about it. Once I do it, it's out of my hands. However this, however you respond to this, man, that's on you. Cause I'm good now because the part of it that affected me no longer affects me anymore. And if you're never affected by it, then that's fine, right? And cause I think no Fs given, given and letting them are two different things to me, right? Cause sometimes I gotta let them because I care. Like with my kids, I had to let them do things because I cared so much about them that I couldn't teach them. They had to learn through their experiences, but I care.

• 50:17Ryan Clark?

  I gave a ton of Fs, right? And when I let them go and they came back to me, mostly too with my oldest daughter when she came back to me. Now we had a different relationship because she was like daddy didn't force me into this. I got to it myself and I see where he was right. Whereas if I would have been hounding her for years and staying on her and staying on her. Maybe she would have resented so much she never got there. And so I don't think Fred's wrong for that because he reads something. That he feels he wants to correct in a certain way. And that's part of him deciding what he wants to do about it.

• 50:52Fred Taylor?

  Yeah, and that doesn't tell you the amount of stuff that I overlook. Because it goes back to her asking about the grocery store line. And it takes me back to the thing we all had to go through in a locker room. It was, we would always have these presentations, the teams would bring someone in. And every year, they tried to mitigate how many guys would be arrested or on ESPN and all that different stuff. They would say, you have choices, decisions, and consequences.

• 51:21Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 51:21Fred Taylor?

  And in that, I have to decide if I want to be frustrated by what the cashier is doing. I understand she's doing a job, right? So I tell myself, look, being frustrated, what is it gonna do?

• 51:34Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 51:34Fred Taylor?

  You're not gonna get out any faster. Same thing sometimes when it comes to being in traffic. I would never road rage for several reasons. Because one, I can't control it. Two, I don't know if this guy or this asshole has a gun or anything on him. He don't know if I do. And I don't want to escalate anything unnecessarily. So I just always try and approach everything with a more chilled demeanor. And even if I come in, it's certainly, I'm not steaming on the other side of my phone.

• 52:02Speaker 03

  Well, you're unique then, because most people are absolutely paralyzed by other people's opinions. I actually believe that the number one thing that is holding people back is this fear of other people's opinions. And I'll give you an example. Like, if anybody is, particularly the person watching or listening to us right now, just think about the social media platform that you like the most. And imagine yourself taking out a post, you start a post, and then you go to pick a photo. And you're like, oh, not that one. Or a reel, and then you're like, oh, filter, should I put this? And then you go to write the caption, you back it up, and then you should put a cap, should I not put a cap? For who? What? Is this too much? Should I do this? For who? You are actually thinking about what somebody else is going to do or think in response to

• 52:47Speaker 03

  what you're about to do. And this is your frickin' social media. This is for your self-expression, your business, your podcast, and you are actually stopping yourself and editing yourself. And if you just look at all the saved drafts, that is the graveyard of your dreams and self-expression. And you did that because you think that there is something you can do that will guarantee that somebody will think or do something. And the truth is, there is one thing in life you can never control. It's what another person thinks, says, does, or feels, period. And so, any time and energy you spend holding yourself back because of what other people think, do, or feel is a complete level of disrespect to yourself because you can't

• 53:32Speaker 03

  control what they're going to do. How many times have you bent over backwards to show up at a business meeting or at some family gathering and people are pissed off because you can only stay a certain amount of time? And you did all this stuff to try to make other people happy? There is a different way to live your life. Let them be disappointed. And let me operate in a way that makes me proud of myself. Because when you're proud of yourself, you know who you are, and you don't actually think much about what other people.

• 53:58Ryan Clark?

  Well, Miss Mel, in writing books, which I think is one of the most impossible endeavors, I think it's just a difficult thing to do. What is your purpose in that? Because I would feel like if I wrote a book, I would want people to like the book, or to enjoy the book, or to learn something from it. Is it just a form of self-expression for you?

• 54:24Speaker 03

  For me, I have hurt myself and hurt other people because I did not know.

• 54:32Speaker 03

  If I can save anybody on this planet, the headaches and the heartaches I have caused myself, because I either did not know the problem I was dealing with, or I did not have a tool to bridge the knowledge with action, then I have lived a good life. And writing books is very difficult for me. I'm crazy dyslexic, so I actually talk them out. And then I get a transcript of what I said, and it usually reads like gabbeligook. But it's easier for me to then edit something that I have spoken. And so this took a year of going back and forth, and my daughter helped me with it. And in writing this book,

• 55:12Speaker 03

  the "let them" theory is the single most viral thing I have ever created. It is the most impactful thing. And I mean, I'm sitting here, I'm number three on Apple Podcasts, number five on Spotify today. This book has sold 600,000 copies in two weeks. And the reason why, and I'm so excited by that, because it is a book that is about power and freedom. It is a book that has deep roots in Stoicism, the Serenity Prayer, Detachment Theory. I sat with Martin Luther King III and his wife the other day, and he was telling me that this is all also

• 55:55Speaker 03

  sitting with the legacy of his father and his grandfather's work of understanding the power of your response. That when you control your response, that's how you take responsibility for your life. And let's look at the word responsibility. Responsibility is the ability to respond. And so when you say "let them," whether it's over a comment, or it's "let them think what they want," or let's say that you're in a relationship with somebody, and they have a narcissistic personality style, or they're crazy dramatic, let them be who they are, because they're revealing who they are. And then say the "let me" part, because you get to choose how much energy you give to this person. They're not changing.

• 56:39Speaker 03

  Let them reveal who they are. And then let me remind myself, I get to decide the energy I put into this. I get to decide whether or not I continue in a relationship with somebody that ghosts me or slinks out of my room like a cat in the morning. And like, I'm now like trying to tell myself they're in love with me. They're not the problem, you are. Because you're sitting here in a fantasy in your head, explaining away behavior that you know is less than you deserve. Let them reveal who they are, because they're not the problem. They're just living their lives. You're the one that's making yourself completely upset about the fact that they're not matching the fantasy in their head.

• 57:14Channing Crowder?

  But speaking of a book, is there an arrogance to writing a book? Because you have to be at a point where like, I know that what I'm, you know, people need to hear what I'm saying, people need to, there has to be some kind of arrogance to it.

• 57:28Speaker 03

  Well, I, you can say, let them, I'm gonna let you think that, but here's the, here's the thing for me. I wrote this because, you know, I had that situation happen at the prom. And then I started saying, let them, and let me. And I then went to Instagram and I did a 60-second video. 15 million views in 24 hours. And I was like, what? And within a couple of weeks, let them tattoos start rolling in, from all over the world. And so I decided, okay, I'm gonna do a podcast episode about this. I'm gonna look at all the comments, I'm gonna call a couple psychologists and psychiatrists and try to understand why does this resonate?

• 58:09Speaker 03

  And we did one podcast episode in 2023 in October, and it became the fifth most shared episode of any podcast of 2023 on Apple. And that's when I said, I have to figure out why this works and the best ways to use it, because normal people around the world are resonating so deeply with this, and I understand why. The reason why this is such a profound and powerful message is, number one, it does not sit in isolation. It actually has roots in ancient wisdom and spiritual philosophy and therapeutic modalities and principles of sobriety.

• 58:51Speaker 03

  Like, it is a modern tool that taps into a wealth of things that we know to be true. Second reason why this is so powerful is we're in a moment in time. Where people feel this deep sense that things are out of control. Whether you're worried about your adult kids, or your little kids, or you're worried about the economy, or the state of politics, or you're worried about a health diagnosis, or your grandmother who's struggling with dementia. People feel like things out here are crazy. And this is a message that no matter what's happening out here, the power's in here. But you can't take control of your own life

• 59:34Speaker 03

  until you first stop trying to control everybody else's and everything around you. And just like you can't get sober until you first stop drinking. And this is a principle that we all know is true. Like, we all have a need to feel in control of our lives. But the problem is, if Fred's pissing me off or making me worried, I now step over a line and try to control Fred. And that bumps up against his need to be in control of his life. And so I have been, for my whole life, the way I push myself, I've pushed other people. And in doing so, you push them away. And when you learn to start saying, especially with your adult kids, let them. Let them learn the lessons they need to learn.

• 1:00:18Speaker 03

  Let them struggle. Let them be who they're gonna be. And I know it's hard as a parent when they're not exactly like you, but let them be who they're gonna be, and then let me learn how to be their biggest supporter and create an environment for them to succeed without me stepping in to do it for them. Let me believe in the possibility of who they are. Let me believe in their ability to figure it out. And let me remind myself, I'm there to step in if things get bad, but I believe in their ability to struggle just like I did and to grow through it. And as long as they know that I'm here and I'm cheering for them, we're good. We're really good. And it's gonna really help you in your relationships. It's definitely helped me. I mean, I've talked a lot about what a bitch I used to be to my husband because I didn't know.

• 1:01:03Ryan Clark?

  I bet your mouth gets wild, too.

• 1:01:06Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:01:06Ryan Clark?

  Like, I'm sitting here, listening to you, like, I'm thinking about you mad and, like, pissed off. And you know, like, women, y'all don't know how to stay on the topic.

• 1:01:15Speaker 03

  No!

• 1:01:15Ryan Clark?

  Right, like, if I-

• 1:01:16Speaker 03

  That's how we confuse you.

• 1:01:17Ryan Clark?

  Right, if I'm standing in the refrigerator, why are we talking about what happened in college?

• 1:01:22Speaker 03

  Uh-huh.

• 1:01:22Ryan Clark?

  So, I know when you used to get mad at your husband-

• 1:01:26Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 1:01:26Ryan Clark?

  And you keep saying, like, the B-word. I bet you were, and you smart as hell, too.

• 1:01:30Speaker 03

  Oh, my God.

• 1:01:30Ryan Clark?

  Oh, Ms. Mill, I know you were terrible.

• 1:01:32Speaker 03

  Terrible. That poor man, I've, I, I, I thank God every day. No, like, a relationship is like a seesaw. People often ask, you know, especially as you get close to the 30-year mark, how'd you make it? It, it, there's only two reasons we made it. We both wanted it to work, and we were both willing to stay on the seesaw. Because in a, in a, in a relationship, there are moments where it's gonna go up for you and down for them, and down for you and up for them, and then there's lots of moments where you're in the middle together. The secret is, don't get off the seesaw. In every relationship that didn't work, you can look back and see the moment somebody got off. And the thing goes like that.

• 1:02:17Speaker 03

  It will not work if both people are not willing to do what it takes to stay in it to make it work. And you can't force someone else to do that. You just can't. But what you can do in any relationship is you can really focus on the let-me part. Stop looking at the other person to change the dynamic. You have so much more power. The, the, the power is in your energy. The power is in your thinking. The power is in your actions. And people reveal who they are and where you stand in their life based on their behavior. So, let them, and then you get to choose, which is you then get to choose how you show up.

• 1:02:56Channing Crowder?

  Did anything change in your relationship when your star, your celebrity, just took off? You're speaking about '08, where you're at home, you're not working, your husband doing the restaurant, and then now, you're a worldwide superstar. How was that change between you and your husband?

• 1:03:13Speaker 03

  You know, it's a great question. It was extraordinarily difficult because when he finally left the restaurant businesses around 2014, he was a shell of himself. I mean, he was profoundly depressed. He had a massive drinking problem. He was completely lost. And as a man, he felt that he had failed. He had failed me. He had failed his children. And, you know, it's one thing to be like, okay, I'll be the stay-at-home dad. And, you know, I'm happy to be here and be able to be here for my kids. But as he would say, and he talks very openly about this, sitting there in the minivan

• 1:03:52Speaker 03

  in the pickup line, you know, at 3 o'clock in the afternoon, and looking around and feeling like, how did I get here? Even though he knew it was an important job, there were a number of years where we had to work through both his disappointment in himself, his resentment of me, my resentment of him. Because a lot of my success, you know, I create this 5-4-3-2-1, 5-second rule thing. I didn't share it for three years. I wasn't like, okay, I'm gonna be a motivational speaker. When he left the business, we still had leans on the house.

• 1:04:33Speaker 03

  When people started to ask me to speak, that was how I was paying my bills. And what's amazing about human beings is that when you have a problem, it's pretty amazing how motivated you can be to solve it. Like, any one of us would jump in a river and not knowing how to swim to try to save one of our kids because we got a problem. And so when you are realizing, oh, my God, my husband needs to heal, I still got a lean on my house. I got a way to make money. I'm gonna say yes to everything. I was just go, go, go, go, go. And so here's what's really cool that we figured out. But it wasn't easy. Like, changing your life is not a glamorous process. It is grueling. Like, anybody that comes and tries to tell you that you can do this overnight or that

• 1:05:18Speaker 03

  there's something sexy about it is wrong. It is a grind. It is about waking up on the days you don't feel like it. It is about checking your attitude when you're frustrated with somebody and like, taking the higher road and being your better self and doing it day in and day out, and day in and day out. And it took us years to kind of work through all that societal pressure. Because I was pissed that I was missing high school for our kids. I mean, he was frustrated with himself. And here's what I learned. I learned that part of the issues in our marriage was that I, as a woman, was placing my ambition on him. That I was just as much at fault

• 1:06:01Speaker 03

  because I had this opinion that he was supposed to provide something. I was part of the problem. Because my ambitions are my responsibility. If I want a house, or a fancy car, or a nice purse, it's my responsibility to buy it. Why am I looking to somebody else to give me the things that I have the God-given talents to go create for myself?

• 1:06:19Fred Taylor?

  Say it louder for the people in the back.

• 1:06:21Speaker 03

  No, seriously. Like, I feel like this is a really important thing. Because here's the other thing that Chris learned that he never would have learned. Chris is a massively ambitious guy. He just doesn't give a shit about all the surface-level stuff. He's gone on to create men's retreats that have had a bunch of former NFL players on them. And people that have done numbers of tours of duty. A place where men can go and be out in the woods, away from life, and figure out what's actually meaningful to me now, in this chapter. Make their pivot. He's become a death doula. He has gotten his masters in spiritual psychology. He is so interested in having deeper conversations with men

• 1:07:03Speaker 03

  about what is actually a meaningful life for them. Let's strip away the pressure to provide. Because one of the things that he's shared with me recently is that one of the biggest takeaways from all these retreats that he leads is that men feel like they're last on their list. And isn't that interesting? Because women feel the same way. And so when he said that to me, I'm like, "That is bull... That is not true." "You guys are always off, you're doing your golf, you're watching your sports, you're always saying..." It's like, "No, that's not true." I am always feeling like I have to take care of everybody. And what's been amazing about saying, "Let them and let me," is that I can just let that be true.

• 1:07:48Speaker 03

  I don't have to fight against that. I mean, what if two things could be true at once? What if we're all running around regardless of whether you're male or female, or... And you just...

• 1:08:01Speaker 03

  Recognize that we all feel like we're last on our list.

• 1:08:05Speaker 03

  That we're all doing the best that we can. That maybe all that we all need is just a little bit more acceptance and love and consideration from one another. And then when you stop looking at everybody else like they're supposed to be the source of your income or the source of your happiness. And you look in the mirror and say, wow, let me take responsibility for my life and my goals and my happiness. Let me take responsibility for showing up in a way that matches my character so I'm proud of myself. You realize, oh my gosh, you've had the power all along. You've just been unknowingly giving it to other people and making them the enemy when they should be one of the greatest resources of your life. And everything changes. And that's why I show up every day in what I do now.

• 1:08:51Speaker 03

  And I just believe in the limitless potential that people have because I didn't realize how much I was in my own way. And it took me far too long to have the tools to get me out of my way, to be a better person. And that's available to all of us.

• 1:09:07Fred Taylor?

  Well, Michael Beasley has always been my favorite episode. I think it sort of gave us trajectory in what this podcast could be and the potential. And that's when people ask me, I'll say, that's my favorite. This is certainly right there. It's like neck and neck.

• 1:09:24Speaker 03

  Thank you.

• 1:09:24Fred Taylor?

  Yes, for a lot of reasons. You just mentioned limitless potential. It reminded me of a...

• 1:09:38Fred Taylor?

  Starting the year on crime, it's crazy.

• 1:09:41Speaker 03

  It's gonna be a good year.

• 1:09:45Fred Taylor?

  My late friend Trevor Mowar. And Trevor helped me... Trevor helped like me reconnect with my career and helped me get back on the right path. But he always talked about limitless potential, getting back to neutral and...

• 1:10:04Fred Taylor?

  It takes what it takes. And those are his books. And just to hear the conversations that, or this conversation, when you talk about the five-second rule. We didn't talk about the high-five habit, but also let them. It just... Earlier, you talked about motivation. It just reminds me of everything I had to do to sort of shake the negative thoughts that I would always have. When I knew I had ability, I didn't always believe or trust it. And Trevor kind of helped me get back on the right path. So that's why you might find that I didn't ask as many questions. I enjoyed the questions that they asked, but I also enjoyed the responses.

• 1:10:49Fred Taylor?

  And I understand experiences shape us. And you and Chris, you guys have found your balance. You know, you inspire him. He inspires you. And now you have everything that you have. And to ask for my question now that the tears have dried up, everything that we've talked about today, what's been your biggest pivot in life? And my bad for crying.

• 1:11:16Speaker 03

  Oh, oh, no, no, no. Hold on. First of all, I actually think Trevor's here.

• 1:11:20Fred Taylor?

  Oh, man. That's crazy.

• 1:11:24Speaker 03

  I do. I think you believe it, too.

• 1:11:33Speaker 03

  Nobody knew it'd come in the form of a white lady, but...

• 1:11:38Fred Taylor?

  Wow.

• 1:11:41Fred Taylor?

  Okay, get the camera out my face, man.

• 1:11:46Speaker 03

  Well, thank you for saying all that. I think the biggest pivot is really learning how to live my life in a way where I'm just like proud of the person that I am. Because I really didn't like myself for a long time. And I think a lot of people live that way. And, you know, we didn't talk about this, but one of my very first job out of law school was I was a public defender for legal aid here in New York City. And there was this very defining thing that happened.

• 1:12:17Speaker 03

  Because it was when Giuliani was mayor and they were just fucking rounding up people all the time, running courts 24 hours a day. And as a young criminal defense attorney for legal aid, you were assigned the night shift. So I would meet my clients behind the bench. You know, there's always two doors in a courtroom. One swings and goes to the hallway where the clerks and the COs and the cops and the jurors come through. And the other one on the right is typically where the cages are, where they hold human beings. And so I would go back and I'd be in the middle of the night and I'd be meeting my clients for the first time. And they didn't pick me. And they were in a scary situation.

• 1:12:59Speaker 03

  And a lot of times, my clients had more experience, especially as a new lawyer than I did, with the court system. And so I'd be meeting them and we'd be going through an arraignment. And so they'd be formally charged and assigned attorney. And then we're going through a bail hearing. And one of the factors in a bail hearing that makes a big difference, other than, you know, they look at records and everything else, but other than that, it's ties to community.

• 1:13:27Speaker 03

  I can't tell you how many times I would walk out into that courtroom with my client and nobody was there. And it just struck me how often in life, when you're going through something, you either think you're the only one, or nobody's there. And that experience, night after night, defending and representing people, I just, in my soul, was like, I'm just going to be a person who shows up. And I didn't know how to show up for myself. I didn't know how to show up for my kids in a better way. I didn't know how to show up and be a better spouse.

• 1:14:08Speaker 03

  And it's these simple things that I truly believe were given to me by God in these moments to share with the world. And I don't say that... With a level of arrogance, I say it because it's taken me 15 years to believe that this is way bigger than me. And every time I meet the people, and I'm sure you feel the same way, who's watching this video right now, or they're listening to you, you're struck by the fact that everybody that is loving what you're doing is a person that knows deep inside themselves that there's a bigger possibility for their lives, and they see the three of you as people that believe it too.

• 1:14:51Speaker 03

  And you're spending your time, and you're spending your resources providing tools and conversations for people that remind them of this potential and this power inside them. And we began our conversation by talking about knowledge, and so I want to kind of close it out this way. One of the biggest pivots that's happened for me, other than really learning the let them theory for real, and learning how to show up differently as a human being, more compassionate, more accepting, more loving, and also with way better boundaries and like

• 1:15:30Speaker 03

  not putting up with bullshit, is understanding that knowledge is up here, right? So is anxiety. So is self doubt. So is hesitation. So is overwhelm. When you are up here in your head, you are disconnected from source. You're disconnected from your body, from your soul, from what you believe that is deeper, from love. And one of the things that's made a huge pivot for me, and I think you're talking about it when you said going into neutral, it's like dropping in, that the power isn't here, it's actually your ability to drop in in a moment to here. This is where your power is, connecting to the source of your power inside yourself,

• 1:16:15Speaker 03

  connecting to you being grounded in the moment, connecting to what you know to be true here. When you can live that way, be present that way, keep showing up that way, man, just it's unbelievable how your life changes. It's unbelievable what you can create. And you can't convince me otherwise, that the person watching, the person listening to us right now, they chose to listen to this. They made time for you, because they know you believe in them too.

• 1:16:45Ryan Clark?

  Well, Mrs. Mel Robbins, best-selling author, amazing podcast host, now awesome wife and mother.

• 1:16:55Speaker 03

  Yes, it's my biggest accomplishment.

• 1:16:57Ryan Clark?

  I feel like Phil Donahue would watch your podcast the same way you grew up watching his show. But I do have a question before we go. All right, Michigan, a lot of life in Boston.

• 1:17:07Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:17:08Ryan Clark?

  The Lions or the Patriots?

• 1:17:09Speaker 03

  Oh, Lions, full stop, Lions. Are you kidding me? My dad would kill me if I said anything else. Lions, they're finally doing OK.

• 1:17:16Ryan Clark?

  So how you feeling about your team? They're number one seed, they got a chance to win it all.

• 1:17:20Speaker 03

  Let them, baby.

• 1:17:23Ryan Clark?

  Thank you so much. That was awesome. Thank you so much, you were amazing.

• 1:17:28Fred Taylor?

  You guys are amazing.

• 1:17:30Speaker 03

  You guys are amazing. That was great.

• 1:17:32Fred Taylor?

  Oh, my God.

• 1:17:33Speaker 03

  Thank you, thank you for inviting me. Oh, my God, I love you.

• 1:17:37Ryan Clark?

  Thanks for coming.

• 1:17:38Fred Taylor?

  Oh, you're the best. Oh, man, this is amazing.

• 1:17:40Ryan Clark?

  You're a big crybaby, man.

• 1:17:42Fred Taylor?

  Hey, man.

• 1:17:42Speaker 03

  Oh, I love that.

• 1:17:43Ryan Clark?

  Oh, no, no, I know why you cry.

• 1:17:45Fred Taylor?

  Trevor would always talk about limitless potential. He was my sports psychiatrist. He helped me to understand that negative thoughts are actually like negative, negative equal positive. Like you can turn negatives into positives. Taught me a lot of different rules so that I can use to carry myself forward.

• 1:18:03Speaker 03

  Amazing.