Macklemore: How I Destroyed My Addiction & Overcame My Darkest Times

In this new episode Steven sits down with the American rapper and songwriter Macklemore. Ben Haggerty adopted the stage name of Macklemore when he began rapping at the age of 14, at the same time he was beginning his struggle with substance abuse. Ben released his debut album, ‘The Language of My World’, in 2005. However, his struggles with addiction threaten to halt his musical career and he entered rehab in 2008. He started collaborating with the producer Ryan Lewis in 2009 and the pair released their album, ‘The Heist’, in 2012. This album went on to win 4 Grammy Awards and become platinum certified. Since 2017, Ben has focused on his solo career, releasing the album ‘Gemini’ and launching his golf-inspired clothing brand Bogey Boys in 2021. He has just released his third solo album, ‘Ben’. In this conversation Ben and Steven discuss topics, such as: Ben’s struggle with addiction and relapsing How to be there for someone struggling with the disease of addiction Knowing the difference between what you want in the moment vs in the long term Removing your ego and being present during the creative process The double edged sword of social media You can listen to Macklemore’s new album, ‘Ben’, here: https://bit.ly/3oJlgPH Follow: Instagram: https://bit.ly/3LbbcGx Twitter: https://bit.ly/3HgwHoa Follow me: https://beacons.ai/diaryofaceo Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Maybe this world's not for me. Because I don't know what I'm doing here anymore. I feel nothing. And I think that that's the hardest part. I haven't really spoke about this. It's, um...

• 0:13Speaker 00

  Yeah, I'll just say it. I mean...

• 0:16Speaker 00

  The man behind our favorite hits.

• 0:17Steven Bartlett?

  Music superstar.

• 0:18Speaker 00

  Grammy Award winner. We're just getting started. You have no idea.

• 0:22Steven Bartlett?

  Where does the desire to be on stage come from?

• 0:25Speaker 00

  Michael Jackson. I wanted to make music art with melody. It was where I felt an escape from my head. 14-year-old, taking 12 shots of vodka, you know, on a school night by myself. Running from the police and doing drugs that never stopped.

• 0:44Steven Bartlett?

  I've read your wife had taken a pregnancy test.

• 0:47Speaker 00

  Yeah, we were in our home and I'm there, I'm high. Her period was late. Went and got her the pregnancy test and I'm just like praying. Let this be a negative pregnancy test. I'm not ready to give up the drugs. And then I heard the tears. And I remember walking outside and I just started bawling because I couldn't feel any sort of happiness. And I knew what that meant.

• 1:13Steven Bartlett?

  If you were to go back and be able to have a conversation now with young Ben at 14 years old before that first drink, what would you say?

• 1:21Speaker 00

  It's a great question. It's going to cause way more pain than good, but at the same time...

• 1:39Steven Bartlett?

  Ben, when I think about people's lives,

• 1:44Steven Bartlett?

  and I think from doing this podcast, this has become more sort of clear to me. I see their lives as like a series of dots. You know, like, or a series of dominos that fell to lead them to where they are today. And if you go back to the very start of that, that series of dots, to understand the most influential moments or things that inspired you to become the person you are today in every sense of the word. What are those first dots, those first experiences that I need to know in order to understand you?

• 2:16Speaker 00

  My first dots, my first dots, I think...

• 2:22Speaker 00

  Would be

• 2:25Speaker 00

  listening to the radio outside summertime, next door neighbor's yard, and being introduced to music and loving music, falling in love that summer. I believe I was six years old. And, you know, I had an older neighbor who was maybe four or five years older than me. And he had a bunch of,

• 2:53Speaker 00

  you know, my best friend was next door. He was five years older than us. It was like a collection of kids in the neighborhood. And I remember that summer being this magical introduction to art, to music, to listening to the radio, and falling in love with melody, with sound. That was my first, that was my first dot. And then my next dot shortly after that was falling in love with hip hop music at the age of seven. And those were the first two dots that really set me on a path, a trajectory, and this desire to be on a stage.

• 3:39Steven Bartlett?

  People can listen to music, have that summertime experience. They can listen to rap music, but not have the desire to be on stage. Where does the desire to be on stage come from?

• 3:49Speaker 00

  Michael Jackson? I think it was, I think it was MJ. I think that, you know, like everyone else that grew up in the, in the eighties, there was something about

• 4:02Speaker 00

  watching Michael Jackson command a stage and what he did with his body, what he did with his feet, the moonwalk, obviously, but everything about it, the perfection, the timing, the nuanced moves that he had, the way that he commanded the crowd. There was a curiosity around, what is that? I'm not sure, but I want to try. And an inner performer was born in my household at the age of seven. And everyone that came into my house was subjected to whatever show I was putting on that day. And I just wanted to, you know, get on the kitchen counter and show people that like, you know, I have a show for you guys. Come watch.

• 4:47Steven Bartlett?

  Parents' home life.

• 4:50Speaker 00

  Parents, um, yeah, they were, they were super encouraging. You know, my mom was my biggest cheerleader, my biggest advocate, someone that was always in my corner that was like, you can do it, you got this. And I just believed her, even when I shouldn't have. And um, those years were very,

• 5:13Speaker 00

  were very crucial in my development of gaining confidence in, in who I was as a person and as an artist.

• 5:21Steven Bartlett?

  School, you, you got kicked out of school, dropped out of school around fourteen, fifteen?

• 5:27Speaker 00

  Yeah, no, I didn't get kicked out. I, I was close to getting kicked out, um, probably should have got kicked out. I wasn't going to school much, but I went to a small school and up until uh, high school. And it was very

• 5:43Speaker 00

  communal, um, you know, parents volunteered, it was this alternative creative school. And then ninth grade hit. And that is when drugs and alcohol hit as well. And I had freedom. It was like, you know, the school was like sixteen hundred kids or two thousand kids or something. And for the first time, I wasn't being watched. I could skip class. Um, the teachers didn't notice if I was there or not, or they didn't call my parents. And um, there was this level of freedom. So there was that period of, of a year, year and a half where um, I went from kind of a, a B student to uh, damn near getting kicked out for, for failing.

• 6:28Speaker 00

  So didn't last long. I got back on track and um, you know, completed high school with, I think I closed out with a three point eight or a four point O my last year of high school.

• 6:40Steven Bartlett?

  Um, and what did you want to do when you were an adult? Like if I'd asked fourteen, fifteen year old you, now what are you going to be when you grow up? What would you have told me?

• 6:48Speaker 00

  I wanted to rap.

• 6:49Steven Bartlett?

  That you, you believed that you could get there?

• 6:53Speaker 00

  You know, I didn't know if I could or not, but it wasn't 14 or 15, I don't think I would have necessarily had the confidence like this is going to be the path. But by the time that I hit around 20 years old, it was like, this is, this is possible. 22, it was like, this is even more possible. 23, but the problem was that I kept having, um, you know, it was just, it was always like, I could make this a reality if I can just get sober. And I couldn't get sober. So it was this like, I need to get sober. I need to get clean so I can make music that's meaningful, that's impactful. Because once I got high, it was like, the veil was over my eyes.

• 7:37Speaker 00

  I had no connection anymore to the music. And, um, it was kind of always that balance. But I felt in my heart, if I can get clean, I can make enough music that will resonate with people that might be able to pay some of these bills.

• 7:51Steven Bartlett?

  When people think about, I built a business with my business partner for many, many years. And throughout that process, he was, and he's been on the show before, he, he was addicted to alcohol. And I didn't know what it was. So we were living in the same house together. I'd go downstairs at 3am in the morning and I'd find him in the laundry room drinking from a bottle. And I'd put him back in bed and then, you know, 5am, I hear a sound. He's managed to get another bottle of alcohol and his bed sheets are covered in this red wine. And I just thought, you know, in my naivety, this is someone that just likes alcohol. Right? And no one had taught me this concept of addiction, the disease of addiction. I had no idea what it was.

• 8:33Steven Bartlett?

  So it wasn't until things escalated even further that there was almost an intervention moment where we literally met one, one evening because there'd been an incident, caused a lot of damage. And it was basically like an ultimatum moment.

• 8:45Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 8:45Steven Bartlett?

  Then I went on the journey of understanding what addiction was and the disease of addiction, as you describe it. When Jay spoke to you on Jay's podcast,

• 8:55Steven Bartlett?

  I could see he was doing a similar thing to what I was doing when I was researching your story, which was like trying to understand the cause of it. And I'm not even sure if that's the right question. Do you know what I mean? Like, we're all searching for a cause.

• 9:08Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 9:09Steven Bartlett?

  And, and so I wanted to ask the question to you, like, what is, in your view?

• 9:15Steven Bartlett?

  How did that relationship with drugs and alcohol come to be?

• 9:20Speaker 00

  You know, I think that for me, it was the first time in my life where I felt an escape from my head. It was like-

• 9:31Steven Bartlett?

  What was going on in your head?

• 9:32Speaker 00

  I don't even know, but I just felt a reprieve. I felt this like, this elation, this moment of like, all of these thoughts in my head are gone. And I am here with this bottle and no one's around and I get to be a secret and I get to hide this and I feel free. I feel free from whatever it was in that, you know, 14-year-old puberty hormonal teenager that was going on in my life. It was like, quiet. And I had the allergy from the very

• 10:12Speaker 00

  beginning. It was, you know, one shot, two shot, what does four feel like? What does eight feel like? And all of a sudden, I'm taking 12 shots of vodka, you know, on a school night by myself, hopping on the bus and, you know, running from the police. And it was a crazy first time drinking alcohol that never stopped for me. Every time, pretty much, that I drank turned into a crazy event like that. But I don't know, I don't know exactly at the time what I was, what I wanted to escape from. I think that there was just that changing reality. There was that, oh, I like to be able to skew what's in front of me and to silence the mind.

• 10:58Steven Bartlett?

  From your, from going through the process of recovery and rehab and all of those things, you've met a lot of other people that have struggled with the disease of addiction. Has any of that process taught you anything about your own relationship or the causal factors of your own relationship with substances, alcohol?

• 11:16Speaker 00

  You know, I think that there's through lines, absolutely. And I think that for a lot of us that have the disease of addiction, there's trauma, there's childhood trauma, there's, you know, if the disease kicks in later in life, maybe that trauma came into play later. But I think that there is a through line in what I have seen in others. And that's, you know, some sort of thing that we're holding on to, or a secret, or, you know, something that happened to us in life that drugs and alcohol kind of numbs and takes away, quells that, that inner guilt, that inner shame, whatever it might be.

• 12:01Speaker 00

  I think that there's a through line between us addicts and in our past. And then I think also there's people that just had the allergy. And maybe it's, maybe it's not related to trauma at all. Maybe we're not predisposed, or maybe we are predisposed. It's a combination. I don't know, but I do see that a lot of people are trying to escape.

• 12:24Steven Bartlett?

  It's a difficult thing, especially for the, the people around that individual. Like, because, you know, going back to my own example with my best friend and business partner, I didn't have the tools to know how to be there.

• 12:37Speaker 00

  Right.

• 12:37Steven Bartlett?

  You know, and I also didn't have the information to understand what I was dealing with. Like, if you'd asked me when I was 25, like, what was going on with my friend? I just loves to get drunk.

• 12:46Speaker 00

  Right. It's part of the culture.

• 12:47Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 12:48Speaker 00

  This is what we do as 25-year-olds.

• 12:49Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 12:52Steven Bartlett?

  If you were to give advice on like how those around the individual who is struggling with the disease of addiction can be there, or what their role is supposed to be, or what would you, what would you say? What advice would you have given me at 25 years old?

• 13:06Speaker 00

  You know, I think that there's, there's resources that we have. There's Al-Anon, where if you have someone that, it's a 12-step program for people that have loved ones, or friends, or whatever, that are going through the disease of addiction, and how to show up. And you literally, they're in the basements of churches all over the world, or, you know, community centers, or wherever, they're free. And there's people that are going through the same common struggle of how do we show up in an authentic way and help save this person's life that we love? Because we don't have the information. You know, for so many of us, I think that there's this notion of, "Just stop." Why don't they just stop?

• 13:51Speaker 00

  Why are they hurting themselves? How could they do this to me? We make it about us, right? Like, how could they do this to me? How could they lie to me? How could they go out and say that they were gonna quit, and then keep going? Why, don't they see who they turn into? Just stop. Just stopping doesn't work. There needs to be a support system. There needs for the addict. We need 12-step meetings. We need therapy. We need, you know, to evaluate our mental health. We need to work the steps. We need a sponsor. We need a community of people that share our very same struggle, so we can see ourselves and experience the therapeutic value of one addict helping another. That is our piece.

• 14:33Speaker 00

  But until we get there, just stopping is almost impossible. And sometimes it takes, you know, hitting those really low points of getting arrested, or getting court-mandated to go to, you know, 12-step meetings. But on the others, the other side of it, here you are, with your friend, and you have no idea how to show up authentically in that moment, and actually really come from a place of love. I was so angry. And you were so angry, right? You're pissed. You don't know how to deal with that emotion. And you realize that once you go to this meeting, these meetings, that just like the addict, we're powerless over drugs and alcohol, you're powerless over your friend.

• 15:17Speaker 00

  And there are things that you can do to help. There's probably things that you can do to maybe hurt, but overall...

• 15:26Speaker 00

  They have to be in enough pain that they want to change. And you're not going to be the catalyst. And you can put them in. I I've watched it time and time again, of people with the best intentions that end up enabling, that end up, you know, fueling the fire, that end up trying to help, but not having the tools themselves. And I think that Al-Anon is the best, easiest, free way to, even if you want to go to a meeting or two, to get some skill sets, some language and to realize that um at the end of it, come from your heart and leave the expectations aside, because this is their journey at the end of the day.

• 16:06Steven Bartlett?

  The moment that I described this moment where we had kind of like an intervention, me and my best friend. And it was really the day we met on a Sunday in an office after the Saturday before. He'd got very, very drunk and caused a lot of problems with team members. He's talked about this, like doing things in public, going on someone's table next to the restaurant, um the table next to his at the restaurant he was at with our team, grabbing their alcohol off the table and doing all these crazy things and getting kicked out of the restaurant. It was a surrendering the day after, and you used that word before.

• 16:37Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 16:37Steven Bartlett?

  We met in the office and it was the first time.

• 16:43Steven Bartlett?

  I came with anger.

• 16:46Steven Bartlett?

  And it was the first time he told me how he felt.

• 16:49Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 16:50Steven Bartlett?

  And he cried in front of me. And that was, and then my anger immediately evaporates because it's the first time I've heard that this individual is suffering with something.

• 16:58Speaker 00

  Right.

• 16:59Steven Bartlett?

  And there's a pain and that was the day, that was the the day he became sober, went to therapy, went on that journey. And he's been sober for eight years since then. But it was that surrendering moment. It was that like him reaching out and saying like, I need help and me actually like listening.

• 17:14Speaker 00

  Yes. You see him for what he is in that moment, which is hurting, which is an immense pain. He doesn't wanna be like that. He feels the guilt and shame of his actions. He's tried to start and stop and go back and forth and thinks that, okay, maybe it's just hard alcohol or dark alcohol. Or maybe it's beer, maybe it's the combination of this. He's tried everything and he's hurting and he doesn't know how to stop. He doesn't have the tools. And I think that that surrender that you talk about is one of the most beautiful moments for an addict or an alcoholic is like waving the white flag. We think about surrender as a weakness, right? Like you don't surrender, you keep fighting, you keep going.

• 17:55Speaker 00

  No, with this disease, the greatest thing that we can do is surrender, is to snitch on ourselves, is to wave that white flag, is to let other people know that we are struggling on our own internally, that this is, something is broken and I have no idea how to get out of this. And what did that do when he was able to be human to you? You were like, okay, now I can come from a place of love 'cause I'm pissed off about what you did last night. And I'm pissed off that you've done X, Y, and Z and that we've had this conversation or whatever the situation is.

• 18:30Speaker 00

  And you know, you ask what can you do as a 25-year-old friend of coming from a place of love? And I think compassion. And even if it's not, you know, empathy isn't possible 'cause that's not what you're going through. I think that that compassion is what makes people feel, you know what? They actually care about me. It's not just like I'm pissing them off, but they actually care. And, you know, just kind of like letting go of our own expectations of people and meeting them where they're at is always, you know, the best place to show up from.

• 19:04Steven Bartlett?

  When was your moment of surrender?

• 19:08Speaker 00

  God, I've had many. I think my biggest moment of surrender, I was 25 or 26 years old, 25, I think.

• 19:18Speaker 00

  I had been on OxyContin for, you know, I don't know, a couple of weeks, a couple of months, and it caught up really quickly in terms of my addiction, to the point that, you know, I lost a ton of weight, I'm, you know, I'm scratching, I just was like, I was dope sick, and I had never really experienced that before. All the happiness, any serotonin was gone. It was one of those moments of, I remember like, walking outside, and it was summertime in Seattle, which is like, the most beautiful place in the world in the summer.

• 19:58Speaker 00

  And I remember walking outside in a tank top, and I'm like, you know, I just started bawling being outside, because I couldn't feel any sort of happiness. It was gone, it was like, it had evaporated, and, um, and I didn't really want to be here anymore. Like, there was that moment, it was like, there was no real suicidal ideation or plan, but it was just this like, maybe this world's not for me, because I don't know what I'm doing here anymore. I feel nothing, I feel nothing, except deep, deep grief and the obsession to get more.

• 20:41Speaker 00

  And it was shortly after that, my, um, you know, I went to a family function, and I'm trying to, you know, piece it together and just be presentable and just get through it, and my dad pulled me aside, and, um, you know, I think my mom had asked him to talk to me, because, you know, we didn't grow up having too many heart-to-hearts, it was mostly with my mom, but my mom, I think, urged him to do it. He pulled me aside and just asked me, "Are you happy?" And, um, that was my surrender moment. I couldn't lie to him, I couldn't lie to myself. It was a very clear answer of absolutely not.

• 21:22Speaker 00

  I am so broken, I am, I don't even know what happy is anymore, and, um...

• 21:34Speaker 00

  He asked me to go to rehab. Said that he would pay for it.

• 21:39Speaker 00

  And

• 21:41Speaker 00

  Immediately, I wasn't ready for that surrender, though. You know, in that moment. I'm like, no, no, no, I've heard about these 12-step meetings. I'll go to those. I know someone that goes. And he came back and was like, I think that it would be really good for you to have these 28 days to just focus on yourself. And of course, there's always the like, well, I can't go because of this is happening and this is you know, we're not worried about those things happening when we're risking our lives doing drugs or copious amounts of drinking. We're just worried about it when it's like, now we need to go take care of ourselves. And it's like the addict anthem is like, well, let me just get my life together and then I can go to rehab. It's not really how it works. It's more like, you know, we come in very

• 22:26Speaker 00

  you know, at where the worst. No one goes to rehab when they're like, you know, life's okay, but I think I need some rehab. No, people come in when they're at their bottom. And I was at, I was at mine. And just saying yes to him that day on the porch, saying that I would go was my surrender moment. It was my white flag and it was

• 22:47Speaker 00

  the best decision I ever made in my life, hands down.

• 22:52Steven Bartlett?

  Have you ever reflected on

• 22:57Steven Bartlett?

  that crossroads moment? And if you'd chosen to go the other way and you'd said to your dad, maybe yes, I am happy when he asked at that family get together or when he said, go to rehab, you'd said, no.

• 23:10Speaker 00

  I think there's a good chance I could be dead.

• 23:13Steven Bartlett?

  Really?

• 23:14Speaker 00

  Absolutely. And I was close at that time. And, you know,

• 23:22Speaker 00

  this disease, we think of,

• 23:27Speaker 00

  we think we're so far away from death, you know, that we're immortal and that it won't happen to us and

• 23:34Speaker 00

  I think I'm probably in my 30s in terms of how many people I know that have died from the disease of addiction.

• 23:44Speaker 00

  You know, when I wrote my first

• 23:47Speaker 00

  song about

• 23:50Speaker 00

  the disease of addiction called Other Side when I got out of rehab, maybe in 2009.

• 23:58Speaker 00

  I had known three people.

• 24:01Speaker 00

  So we've gone up by probably around twenty five, thirty people since then. Um, I'm not naive to how quickly it can happen. And taking into account fentanyl as well right now and what's going on with street drugs. It's rampant. We are, we are facing an epidemic right now around the world, but particularly in America. I don't know how it is over here, but I think this fentanyl is no joke. It's killing people.

• 24:29Speaker 00

  They think they're getting one drug, they're getting another drug. And the nature of the disease, it is out to kill us. That is its sole purpose. And um, yeah, I'd be dead. I think so.

• 24:44Steven Bartlett?

  You've been so successful throughout your career with your music and it's, it's, it's an interesting hearing those stories of the struggle and the ups and the downs and the battle with that. And then looking at your, your catalog in terms of music. And I was, it was crazy. I was going through, I was going through all your songs, going back through the, through the years. And I'm looking at the numbers on these fucking records and I'm thinking fucking one point four billion views, five hundred million views, five hundred, two hundred million views and huge, huge numbers. The records are, they feel timeless when I listen to them. There's a real, real, real talent there, which, you know, when I think about the struggle you've been through, then I look at the back catalog of the work you've produced from an artistic standpoint.

• 25:28Steven Bartlett?

  I'm asking myself, what's the relationship here? Like, has, has that, has your struggles played into the music? Or has your struggles sort of taken away from the music and your potential? Like, what is the relationship and what has, what has music been throughout that struggle to you?

• 25:45Speaker 00

  It's a great question and it's honestly a question that I think about too. Like I've, I've kind of asked myself that same question in the last forty eight hours. I don't know if I have an answer.

• 26:01Speaker 00

  I believe that it's all panned out the way that it's supposed to be. Has drugs and alcohol affected me being prolific? Absolutely. It's taken away work ethic in moments. It's taken away seasons, years of time where I could have been focused, where I could have been building momentum. But instead, I chose the path of instant gratification. And we were talking about this last night. There's one of my mentors and OGs in my 12-step program. Or one of them.

• 26:39Speaker 00

  You know, her name was Rita. And she had this business card that she used to give out to people. And it said that her greatest regret in life is trading in what she wanted

• 26:53Speaker 00

  in the bigger picture for what she wanted in that moment. And I always think about my life in that way of, is this what I want for the greater good? For my story to be? Or am I acting out a place of desire? Am I acting out a place of wanting to change the way that I feel right now, knowing that that will hinder me? That's not really what I want. What place am I coming from? And weighing those. And I think for a lot of my life, it was, no, I want this right now. And that oftentimes is a destructive pattern, whether it was sex, or with drugs, or you know, whatever.

• 27:31Speaker 00

  Of trading in what I truly wanted, what I truly believed to be the truth. Because my truth is that I am the best version of myself when I am clear. When I am silent enough to be able to be a conduit to something that is outside of my understanding. I couldn't even put it into words. It's that magic that happens in the studio where all of a sudden, you're almost removed from the pen that's writing the song. And you know, I choose to call it God, but that God presence, that being is absolutely moving through, through me. I've never been able to feel that.

• 28:13Speaker 00

  Without a spiritual practice. Music has always been a spiritual practice for me. But I think that it's made me who I am. I've made tons of mistakes. And since I've been famous, I made tons of mistakes that were, that were, you know, influenced by the drugs that I was doing or, you know, the, the positions that I got myself in. But those also turned into learning moments. That turned into maybe a song or maybe a conversation or maybe the thing that I needed to share about in a 12 step meeting that saved someone's life. I don't know. I don't know. But I know that I'm here. I know that I'm here for a reason. I know that my catalog is something that I'm super proud of.

• 28:57Speaker 00

  And, you know, beyond the numbers, it's like, last night, driving from Birmingham into London, I listened to Ben, my new album. I hadn't had that really, that moment for a while of listening to my album in its entirety. Cause you're working so hard on it. There's so many nuanced things. It's like, can't even just enjoy it. And I sat in the car and I listened to it all the way through. And it's the best feeling to be like, you know what? I, I worked really hard on something and,

• 29:35Speaker 00

  and all of these little moments, all of these mistakes, all of this pain eventually finds its way into purpose. And I think that that's an artist's highest form is to be able to take pain and repurpose it into purpose.

• 29:56Steven Bartlett?

  What is giving you that? Or like you described that moment in the studio where you're clear and you're almost channeling something, your, your higher creativity, whatever that is. Have you been able to figure out what it is that causes those moments of, of clarity and, and focus and stability? And then on the other side of the coin, what causes the, the chaos in our lives, the instability? Is there any causal factors?

• 30:19Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 30:23Speaker 00

  For me, it is

• 30:27Speaker 00

  exercise,

• 30:29Speaker 00

  getting outside, it's like actually cardio. It is

• 30:37Speaker 00

  being of service to other people. It is a spiritual practice. It is coming from faith rather than fear. It is thinking about ourselves less and others more. It is being still in the studio, not thinking about what is this going to do for the world, but just actually being present. And removing the ego. Which is what all of those things help facilitate, right? Like when we, when we're of service, when we work out, when we show up, when we're at peace, when we think about ourselves less, we're removing the ego. I'm stripping it away. It's a process of excavation. And the opposite is when I'm thinking about, okay, what if this song doesn't work at radio?

• 31:22Speaker 00

  What if this, you know, what if TikTok doesn't, you know, do the challenge? What if, uh, you know, whatever it is, when I'm future surfing, thinking about the outcome rather than enjoying the process. The process is where the magic happens. The rest of it, I've never, for all of the records that I've ever put out, there has never been a moment of any calculation that has worked. Doesn't work. The records that I've been like, oh yeah, this is gonna be the one. Those are the ones with like two million views on YouTube. And the ones that I'm like, you know, who knows? Those are the ones with, you know, that really affected culture, that really like got out there and, you know, the, the world knows these songs

• 32:05Speaker 00

  10, 11 years later, or five years later, or whatever it is. I think the intention in the studio is so important because even if, you know, even if I put out a, a new album that doesn't stream as, as well as the last one, or whatever it is, that's not my metric. If I'm, if I am basing my identity around those numbers and those metrics, I will always be disappointed. My bucket will always be half full. And

• 32:39Speaker 00

  If I'm basing it on what was the intention? What am I actually trying to get at? The music is gonna hit who it hits. It was already written. I just have to get out of the way. When I try to control, hang on, when I try to play puppet master, that's when I become miserable. And I'm not effective at my job.

• 33:04Steven Bartlett?

  So two questions here then on that basis. You know, I'm sure people ask you what your favorite record is or whatever. I'm not really interested in that. I know it's like choosing your favorite children or whatever, and they're all different for various reasons. But in terms of the most important record you think you've ever recorded, the one that you believe has benefited others, the world, the most, irrespective of performance metrics. What is that record and why?

• 33:26Speaker 00

  It's two records. It's Same Love and Other Side.

• 33:32Steven Bartlett?

  Interesting.

• 33:32Speaker 00

  And I think Same Love is the obvious answer because it came out at a time where we as, I'll speak for America, but kind of, you know, even more. It came out at a time in America where we were having this conversation around legalizing gay marriage, where there was a shift. There's a cultural shift. And that song became

• 34:07Speaker 00

  became something bigger than than me. It became a moment for a movement towards equality. And as a songwriter, as an artist, as someone that, you know, prides himself on the pen and the ways that it can move spirit, that's the, that's up there. That has to be one. Or number two, the other one is Other Side. And Other Side is a record that not as many people know. But it is one that was kind of the first, you know, it was the first record I wrote when I got out of treatment. And it was that I am literally not even here right now.

• 34:52Speaker 00

  I'm just trying to be silent enough in my own head to just let this magic happen. But it talked about.

• 35:00Speaker 00

  The disease of addiction for the first time and I kinda was like, ah, I just need to get this out. I don't know, I am an addict and I don't wanna like hide this shit. And I know it's not cool. I know it's not gonna sell more records. I know it's not what anyone, anyone else is talking about. I know it's not what my favorite rappers are talking about, but I am an addict and I have to be sober.

• 35:26Speaker 00

  And I need to let whoever was listening to me at the time, the 2,000 fans that I had, I needed to let them know that this is who I was. And, um, you know, it said that we're only as sick as our secrets. I didn't wanna be sick anymore. I just wanted to tell my truth and that was the record to do it. And what I watched happen after that,

• 35:48Speaker 00

  I'll never forget. People coming to the shows, you know, six people, 12 people, 14 people in recovery, coming because they heard Other Side and

• 36:05Speaker 00

  it changed their life. And

• 36:09Speaker 00

  I know what that feels like as someone on the other end of it, whose life was changed so many times by the music that I was listening to. And

• 36:22Speaker 00

  yeah, it's those two. Those are the ones.

• 36:26Steven Bartlett?

  I listened to Drug Dealer earlier. And, um, I listened to it, but then I looked at the comment section. And it is like, it's profound. It's profound that the second comment on that video is from a recovering heroin addict who's crying while they're watching that video because it's making them feel heard, seen and understood. Um, in a really profound way. And every, every comment was like that. Every comment was, speaking to like the liberating and therapeutic impact that song was having on, you know, thousands and thousands of people. It's a really profound thing. It's almost, you know,

• 37:05Steven Bartlett?

  it's a lot, isn't it? In terms of, you know, you talked about those people coming to your show, the seven, the 10, the 12.

• 37:11Steven Bartlett?

  Has that ever felt like, and this is a strange word to use, but does it, has that ever felt like an emotional weight at all? Because you're hearing these stories, I sat with Jordan Peterson, in fact, and he talked about how people coming up to him and telling them about their own journeys, and they're an emotional path to recovery or healing, can sometimes feel like, like an emotional weight. It's a lot to carry.

• 37:34Speaker 00

  I feel the opposite.

• 37:35Steven Bartlett?

  Really?

• 37:35Speaker 00

  I feel,

• 37:39Speaker 00

  I feel connection. It connects me to the art. Because I'm not in the same place that I was in 2009 when I wrote that song. My life looks very different. I think when I hear people say that they were moved, or they were transformed, or that they felt some inspiration, or, you know, whatever it is. For one, it's an, it's an opportunity, and I think that maybe this is where Jordan and I differ, is that I'm an addict, this person coming up to me is an addict, and there's an immediate connection there that I can't describe. I don't know what it is, but it's just like, oh, you got the same, oh my God, we had the same thing. How are you doing with, with your journey? How are you doing with yours?

• 38:25Speaker 00

  And it's not a weight, it's more like, ah, thank you for, you know, the, the meet and greet of, thank you so much, appreciate it, thank you so much. Like, that's a weight, that's just going through the motions. The actual moments of people telling me those things, when I'm like, okay, let's pause. Like, we don't need to get through the line so fast. Let's, you know, we'll get to the hotel when we get to the hotel. Let me be present with this person because this conversation is changing my life. I'm reminded why I wrote that record in the first place. I'm reminded of the beauty that happens when we share honestly. Like, those are those moments where I'm like, thank you. That's where I feel like I am the recipient of, the recipient of a gift.

• 39:09Speaker 00

  It's coming full circle. Because they're reminding me of how important it is to, to share honestly, regardless of how it looks, regardless of how it's perceived. And I think that so much of the time, there's this, you know, well, if I, if I tell my truth, will I be an outcast? Will I be accepted? Will I be kicked out of the tribe? Will I still be a part of? We want to be a part of. And.

• 39:41Speaker 00

  There's this thing that happens, like what happened with your friend when you saw him finally. When you saw him not as the alcoholic that was fucking shit up in the house or messing up your life or like, why doesn't he just stop? But you saw him in his raw estate. That's his, that's raw humanity right there. And when we demonstrate that, when we can show others that we can be raw,

• 40:06Speaker 00

  it just inspires. Because other people are like, oh, I can tell my truth too and I'm not gonna get kicked out? Wow. Let me show up as my authentic self.

• 40:20Steven Bartlett?

  Social media, you don't, you don't really do social media, do you? You don't really, in terms of like engaging, I heard that you're not the biggest fan of social media.

• 40:31Speaker 00

  Well, that hurts my feelings because I try pretty hard. No, I'm just kidding.

• 40:34Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, I was gonna say.

• 40:36Speaker 00

  No, I do.

• 40:37Steven Bartlett?

  You're not, but you're not out there making, you're not out there every day talking about your life and showing behind the scenes.

• 40:41Speaker 00

  Yeah, social media for me is part of my job.

• 40:47Speaker 00

  Sometimes I'm great at it, sometime, I mean, I'm just this guy. I'm like, okay, what are we doing on, you know, social media now? And then it's like, zoop.

• 40:55Steven Bartlett?

  But outside of work?

• 40:57Speaker 00

  Outside of work, no, I mean, I wanna be present. I, I wanna be like, you know, it's like, my kids show up today and, you know, my videographer is like, yo, if you can get a little bit of iPhone footage with the kids like walking around, like that'd be awesome. And I'm like, you know, asking my wife five minutes into our walk, like, hey, do you mind getting some footage of us walking? Like, and I'm just like, never mind, never mind, never mind. It doesn't matter, like, it doesn't matter. What matters is that I'm with my kids and that I'm being present and that I'm happy. Um, and I'm, and I'm off my phone. Cause I've experienced both ways and it's a balance, right? Like, there are times where I need to be on my phone and I need to be on social media

• 41:39Speaker 00

  and I need to be handling whatever needs to get handled, but, um. I think it's it's about the relationship that an individual has with social media. And again, it comes back to intention. Is the intention for the most likes, for the most engagement, for the most follow? Like, if that's what it is, then there's always going to be a void there that's looking to be filled. And it can be really toxic. And I was talking to, you know, a couple, a couple of guys on, on tour with us and, and I, you know, 20 year old, 21.

• 42:16Speaker 00

  And just talking, you know, they're just constantly analyzing TikTok and trying to figure out, why did this post perform and this one didn't? And maybe it's because we're over in Europe and the geo-targeting and all of this. And I'm like, you guys are 20. Like, you're on tour in Europe. Like, go out and have fun, explore, like, live outside of TikTok. And when this is all that they've known and that this, and that this platform is the reason why I know he exists and why his songs have gotten out there. It can be really challenging and I feel for the younger generation. And I feel for the older generation that's like, yo, the label's telling me that I have to do this

• 42:57Speaker 00

  and I really don't want to be here at all, but here I am, post.

• 43:04Speaker 00

  There's this, there's a spiritual sickness that can be easily,

• 43:10Speaker 00

  insidiously infiltrate our psyche if we're just here nonstop. And, and I just don't want to be.

• 43:19Steven Bartlett?

  On that point of, you know, those 20 year olds that are with you and you're giving them that advice. If you could, you know, you've had this immense career and, you know, a lot of people have great careers, but yours has had so many twists and turns and twists and turns that the wisdom you've gained from every twist and turn, I believe is pretty profound. That's why I really loved your conversation with Jay. If you were to go back and be able to have a conversation now with that young Ben at 14 years old, let's say right before that first drink. What advice would you impart on him?

• 43:54Steven Bartlett?

  About life?

• 43:59Speaker 00

  It's tough to say. And it's, you picked an interesting time period because you picked before. And I don't think that I would have.

• 44:11Speaker 00

  I don't think that I would have warned that 14-year-old. Maybe I would have. I think that...

• 44:19Speaker 00

  But I don't think it would have done anything. You know what I mean? Like, maybe that conversation would have looked like,

• 44:27Speaker 00

  "Bro, you're an addict. You're never gonna be able to shut this off. It's gonna cause way more pain than good." But at the same time, I can't discredit the experiences that I've had that have led me to this table right here in this moment. And if it wasn't for those mistakes,

• 44:45Speaker 00

  you know, I have a different story. I have a different arsenal to pick from in terms of what moves me creatively. And again, repurposing that pain. But a lot of that pain has hurt others, has hurt close family members, or my wife, or best friends. And those moments are hard to deal with. I think if I could tell my 14-year-old self anything, it'd be like, "Bro, you're gonna do what you're gonna do. Enjoy it. Find gratitude. A spiritual practice. Get outside of your own head. Get into the act of loving and being there for others.

• 45:29Speaker 00

  And just don't stop." I think that when I have stopped in my life, when I have let up on the gas, not just like, not stop in terms of the work ethic, but stop the spiritual practice. That's the thing that's always brought me back. It's not the work. It's not the amount of engagement. It's not the algorithm. It's not the YouTube streams. It's none of that. What actually makes you happy and fulfilled, find that thing and push into it as hard as you can. That's where the magic lives.

• 46:13Steven Bartlett?

  You used the term spiritual practice to describe what that is. In detail, what do you mean by spiritual practice for you?

• 46:20Speaker 00

  Well, it's looked like many different things throughout my my time here. You know, in moments, it's been a meditation practice. In moments, it's been a yoga practice. In moments, it's been, you know, many 12 step meetings throughout the week or step work or working with others. But I think it's the art of just getting outside of oneself and getting grounded in the moment and serving others. That has been my consistent

• 46:51Speaker 00

  consistent point of reference is, you know what?

• 46:55Speaker 00

  When you feel spiritually sick, reach out to someone else.

• 47:00Speaker 00

  Whether it's picking up the phone or call that person that you've been avoiding or whatever, just get outside of your own self. Do the thing that makes you uncomfortable. Push into that because that's when life all of a sudden becomes vibrant, colors come back, it becomes alive of like, oh, yes. I I I turned this off. I stopped thinking about me and what I wanted in the moment. And I just showed up for someone else. And I found that connection. I found God in those moments. I found that little piece that reminded me of who I am just by showing up for for another.

• 47:37Steven Bartlett?

  Second ago, you talked about when you're talking about other people, you said that one of the hardest things is knowing that you'd go on to hurt other people.

• 47:44Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 47:45Steven Bartlett?

  Who did you hurt?

• 47:48Speaker 00

  I've hurt my parents, hurt my wife probably the most.

• 47:54Speaker 00

  I think anyone that

• 47:59Speaker 00

  I was being dishonest to, you know? There's this double, it's almost this double life that that needs to be lived. And, you know, when I would go off and I'd relapse and I, you know, I'd lie about it. I wouldn't, you know, relapsing is

• 48:16Speaker 00

  You know, for me, it's always been a sneaky thing. It's not like I'm like all of a sudden like, hey, guys, just so everyone knows, I'm high again. No, this is like quiet, hush. I'm trying not to get caught. And in those seasons, protecting that. And people are probably like, yo, what's going on with them? Like, you know, and I'm lying about that. And it's just a really toxic spot. You know, I'm gaslighting my wife and, and, you know, making her feel crazy. I think that that's probably if she was here, ask what's the hardest part of being, you know, in a, in a partnership with an addict.

• 48:59Speaker 00

  It's like those moments where he made me feel crazy. It's not that I went back to the drugs necessarily. It's that um, I made her feel like she was, she was crazy. And that she was off because she was even questioning me. And again, turning into someone that I'm like, that's the worst version of myself. That's the shittiest version of myself. That's something that in my, in my heart, I know to be um, not the way that I want to treat anybody, much less my significant other or my best friends or my team. But here I am again, putting everything to the wayside just so I can continue to use. And um, it's a, it's a pretty dark place.

• 49:44Steven Bartlett?

  Was there a point where you thought you might lose her?

• 49:47Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 49:49Speaker 00

  Yeah, I mean.

• 49:52Speaker 00

  Relapse in COVID, you know, the beginning of COVID.

• 49:57Speaker 00

  Definitely was um. You know, she kicked me out of the house. And um, I went to stay in my parents condo and. I remember just uh, driving around aimlessly. Like I'm gonna lose my kids. I'm gonna lose this marriage.

• 50:21Speaker 00

  And I think the thing that.

• 50:26Speaker 00

  I think that thing that scares me the most is,

• 50:31Speaker 00

  if I'm being honest, is not being in my kids' lives. And the devastation that that would potentially, and that impact that it would, a divorce would have on them. And the other flip side of it is I believe the kids are resilient and that that pain can be repurposed and that, you know, half of the world is divorced and, you know,

• 51:03Speaker 00

  beauty can come out of it and does all the time and people end up in much better situations out of divorce. So I'm not against divorce, but for me and my, and my kids, that was the thing that I was holding on to was just this like, I want our family to stay together. And the fact that I can, I, it would be because of me. It would be because of my self-centered, instant gratification, need to escape, not actually working my 12-step program ass. Like that, I would be the reason that this family broke up and I would have to, to hold that. And that weight, the idea of that weight,

• 51:48Speaker 00

  still seems too much to, to live with. I, I know I could do it, but in that moment of that, that last relapse, that was definitely a,

• 52:01Speaker 00

  yeah, it was, it was a real scare.

• 52:07Speaker 00

  And to, um, look what you're about to lose. For what? For this? This doesn't even make you happy. This stopped working

• 52:17Speaker 00

  right away. It never worked. It never worked for you. It never worked. It never worked in the long run. Even if you had a good night or two, in the big picture,

• 52:29Speaker 00

  you have an allergy and that allergy is trying to kill you every time you pick it up.

• 52:39Steven Bartlett?

  I read about a story when you were in a, I think you were in a hotel room or something and your wife had taken a pregnancy test. And you had, you'd just relapsed and she was in the toilet. And you heard her crying through the door.

• 52:51Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 52:51Steven Bartlett?

  And you knew that, you knew that those weren't happy tears.

• 52:56Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 52:57Steven Bartlett?

  Because she was pregnant.

• 52:59Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 53:00Steven Bartlett?

  Can you take me back to that moment and just tell me exactly what happened? You'd, you were in, it was a hotel?

• 53:05Speaker 00

  It was at our house.

• 53:06Steven Bartlett?

  You were at our house, okay.

• 53:07Speaker 00

  Yeah, we were in our home and, um.

• 53:15Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's, it's, it's kind of a, I mean, it's the truth, but it's, um.

• 53:24Speaker 00

  Yeah, I'll just say it, I mean, I'm there, I'm high, she doesn't know it, but she knows it. But, you know, she hasn't caught me yet and I just keep denying it and, um. You know, her period was late, went and got her the pregnancy test and I'm just like.

• 53:43Speaker 00

  Begging to a god that I had no connection with, please, please. Let this be a negative pregnancy test.

• 53:54Speaker 00

  I'm not ready yet, I'm not ready to be a dad, I'm not ready to give up the drugs. I'm not ready to give up the drugs. And I remember just like on the carpet, literally like praying. And then I heard the tears.

• 54:13Speaker 00

  And I knew what that meant.

• 54:16Speaker 00

  That she was pregnant. And I knew that that meant that I needed to get clean.

• 54:27Speaker 00

  And it was that moment of like, that pull. And I think that that's the hardest part, I haven't really spoke about this. I think that's the hardest part about.

• 54:37Speaker 00

  The disease of addiction is this pull, is the compulsion and the obsession for more. Yet knowing that more is the thing that is leading to. Depression, the rock bottom, the not wanting to be here anymore. But it's this just, that at odds. And I, I felt that.

• 55:02Speaker 00

  Inner turmoil of just.

• 55:06Speaker 00

  I'm not ready to be a dad because I still wanna get high. And I know I need to stop, but I am just not ready yet. And sure enough, she was pregnant and I got clean.

• 55:28Speaker 00

  And she was pregnant with our first daughter, Sloane. So, you know, I think my, my reservation is just like Sloane watching this someday and being like, oh, tight. So dad was super high on the carpet and didn't really want me. That's not true at all either. I mean, I was high and I, at the time, I didn't want her. But when I got clean, it was like, okay, let's have this baby. Like, I wanna be a dad. I wanna be a dad who my kids never see loaded, that they don't even know that part of me, that they don't have to be like, oh, dad's, dad's high again, or dad's hiding, or mom kicked dad out of the house, that they don't even know that part of my, my story.

• 56:13Speaker 00

  That's what I wanted.

• 56:16Steven Bartlett?

  What have you come to learn about the journey of life? And, and as it relates to like, and I said a second ago, that the ups and the downs, and the ups and the downs, but you persevere. And that's really all the choice we have is to persevere and to find something meaningful to aim at today. And then we'll get another chance again tomorrow. And we kind of like write off yesterday and the day before, because that's out of our control now. And it's about what, what can I aim at today? As you sit here today, what are you aiming at? Like, the past is the past. Like, we can't go back and change things. It is what it is. It's, I think it's important to be aware of it and to admit it to ourselves to, at least to learn some wisdom from it. But as you sit here today, you're a, you're a, as you woke up this morning, this is, today is in play.

• 56:57Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 56:58Steven Bartlett?

  What are you aiming at today? And as we look off into the next sort of two decades of your life, what?

• 57:04Speaker 00

  I maybe to a fault, don't think about the future. What I'm thinking about is here.

• 57:15Speaker 00

  And then I'm like, okay, well, let's zoom out from here. I have a show tonight. I want to put on a great show. We're in London. It's like 6,000 people, sold out. Like, I want to put on a great show. What is it going to take for me to put on a great show tonight?

• 57:31Speaker 00

  My family's in town in Lon- like, I just don't think like that.

• 57:35Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 57:35Speaker 00

  And I, and I watch my wife, who does, and other people who do. And it's like I have an inability to think a big picture. I have an exceptional ability at focusing on the thing that is in front of me. And I believe that it probably has to do with ADD and the way that my brain works and the chemistry. But it's what, it has created a, um, a work ethic and a focus that, you know, I can just be in the studio for 14 hours or I can be doing a music video and editing it and just keep going. And that's how I got good at my craft was putting in those long, long hours where other people be like, all right, let's go outside. And I'm like, no, it's not done yet. Let's keep working.

• 58:20Speaker 00

  But in terms of the next 20 years, I don't know. I don't know. I, I'm excited to, to pivot. You know, I, I don't think that, you know, in a decade, I'm gonna be like, you know, I can't wait to play this show tonight. I don't know. You know, we'll see what happens. But what I have realized, and, and, and part of this comes from, um, you know, working on my golf clothing company, Bogey Boys, which has been so fun, such a labor of, of love and to be able to design clothes and watch people wear them. And, you know, the, the creative process that that has been, particularly in COVID.

• 59:01Speaker 00

  That's not gonna be my only pivot. It's just not. It doesn't fulfill me in the same way. What does fulfill me with actual meaning is is our youth program called the residency in Seattle and thinking about actually, you know, getting a permanent spot year-long with staffing where we have a home for the residency. That actually is inspiring to me. That has meaning. That has a lasting potential.

• 59:33Speaker 00

  It's deeper than like, what color polo is this gonna be? And I think that they can coexist because I do enjoy this as well. I love bogey boys. I love golf. But for the bigger picture,

• 59:45Speaker 00

  what do you want your legacy to be? And not for the the purpose of ego, but like, how do you want to leave the greatest impact, to make the greatest impact with our precious time on this earth? We don't have much. We don't know how much we have left. It's finite. It could be, you know, gone tomorrow. What can you hang your hat on and be like, you know what? I took a risk. I got uncomfortable. I sacrificed. I showed up. I worked really hard. I celebrated the wins. I took the losses on the chin and I kept going. That's the kind of life I want. And it's the kind of life I wanted today, and it's the same life I want in 20 years, regardless of where that leads me.

• 1:00:32Steven Bartlett?

  All those years ago, your dad asked you a question at that family get together. He said, are you happy? All these years later, you're sat in this table in London. Are you happy?

• 1:00:45Speaker 00

  I think happiness is fleeting. And happiness comes and goes. I think that what is sustainable is meaning, is purpose. I'm not gonna be happy every day. It's gonna go like this. In this moment, yes, I am happy. But

• 1:01:04Speaker 00

  but in general, in in my life right now, am I happy? I would say absolutely, yes. But

• 1:01:11Speaker 00

  there's trials and tribulations through it all. And what I have, what I have found is that those moments of of

• 1:01:20Speaker 00

  of being tested.

• 1:01:23Speaker 00

  Of sorrow, of betrayal, of growth. All of those turn into progress if we can use them as medicine. If we can accept them as blessings rather than this idea. This is one thing I've been thinking about a lot lately is this idea of like victimhood, of mentally going to a place of, oh, they wronged me or I'm a victim. No, this is an opportunity. This is a blessing that has been put in front of me. And how I get to handle it now and show up. And it becomes toxic in my mind if I'm thinking of it about what are they doing to me? How could they do this? Just like we were talking about earlier.

• 1:02:07Speaker 00

  It becomes medicine when I can show up from a place of, I might not know why this is happening, but I have faith that I am absolutely at the right place right now. And I'm going to show up clean. I'm not going to escape. I am going to be my true self, tell the truth even when I don't want to. And keep it pushing. That's what creates meaning and fulfillment. And that is what I'm after, not momentary happiness.

• 1:02:44Steven Bartlett?

  There seems to be a real authenticity to your new album, Ben. And I think, I mean, maybe that's even evidenced in the choice of the name to some degree, because you've called it after yourself, after the name that your parents gave to you. And throughout the album, I felt a certain sense of, I was going to say, I don't give a fuck about like what I'm supposed to be to some degree. Because it feels like all of you, as opposed to just a narrow part of you, if that makes sense.

• 1:03:13Speaker 00

  Absolutely.

• 1:03:14Steven Bartlett?

  So like, and I say that in part because I listened to the first record. And then I got like six or seven records down. And it was just like, you hadn't, the first record didn't sound like the sixth record. It was like a completely different kind of expression. So I was thinking it's kind of someone that has kind of just doesn't really give a fuck about what they're supposed to make. And they're making what they care about. Maybe that's my assessment of it. How accurate was that? What was your thinking going into this? And how is this project different to all of the other projects?

• 1:03:42Speaker 00

  I think that you summed it up beautifully. And.

• 1:03:48Speaker 00

  I love to be able to do all of that. And just like walk into the studio and be like, what, what is speaking to me today?

• 1:03:58Speaker 00

  You know, maybe it's a dance song from 1984, maybe it's a, you know, I'm going through something. Maybe it's a pop song, maybe it's like I wanna rap, you know? You know, with primo scratching and it sounds like it's from the 90s like. It's whatever direction I wanna go is like, I don't wanna feel limited. Like, oh, but that's not what you do. No, I could do whatever I wanna do. And you're right in that it's all me, like those are all bits and pieces of me. And I think for a long time, and that's what I've always done kinda, so how does it differ? I don't know, I feel like all, maybe there's been a little bit more cohesion on other albums, but for the most part, that's what I've always done is

• 1:04:44Speaker 00

  those are all, those are all facets of my expression and and I think it's confused people, you know, cause like it, you know, I'll have homies that are like, yo, you dropped Heroes and then you came out with this like, you know, pop song with the music video directed by your daughter, like what is going on? And I'm like, yep, that's what I did.

• 1:05:06Steven Bartlett?

  But doesn't authenticity confuse people anyway? Cause conformity doesn't confuse people.

• 1:05:10Speaker 00

  No, you're right.

• 1:05:11Steven Bartlett?

  Conformity fits.

• 1:05:12Speaker 00

  Yes, conformity fits.

• 1:05:13Steven Bartlett?

  Authenticity doesn't.

• 1:05:15Speaker 00

  No, and they, and they want me to be this version.

• 1:05:17Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:18Speaker 00

  And, you know, radio wants me to be this version and, you know, this, it's like,

• 1:05:27Speaker 00

  you're right, I mean, authenticity confuses people. And, and, and once people can box, put it in a box, package it, be able to point to it that this is this, this is that. It makes it a lot easier as an artist to, or as a, you know, observer to judge. I don't like it because it's this.

• 1:05:50Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:50Speaker 00

  Versus like, well, shit, he did that, but then he did that and I like that, but I would never listen, you know, whatever. People are trying to figure it out. I'm like, I'm just gonna keep making the music that I've always made. And again, I have a faith now that it lands where it's supposed to land. And that process has been therapeutic for me of just.

• 1:06:14Steven Bartlett?

  Detaching.

• 1:06:14Speaker 00

  Detaching from the outcome, regardless of what it is, just like, just make it because you love it, dude. That's all.

• 1:06:21Steven Bartlett?

  I think that's a super, you know, powerful lesson and important one that I think everyone without maybe realizing it can actually really relate to. I even have that a lot on this show where I will have such a diverse range of guests that on every conversation I have, there's a comment saying like, get back to interviewing CEOs. Or why, like, why is this person on, why are you interviewing sports people or whatever? And there was maybe a point where I thought it crossed my mind, maybe they're right. Maybe I should just like stay in my lane.

• 1:06:49Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:06:49Steven Bartlett?

  But the authentic me goes, I care about so many fucking things.

• 1:06:52Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:06:53Steven Bartlett?

  I love sports. I love businesses. I love music. I love psychology. So can I just run the experiment of being myself?

• 1:07:01Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:07:01Steven Bartlett?

  And I refer to it as an experiment because there's a perceived cost to running that experiment. You don't know the outcome. Are people just gonna stop listening? Running that experiment has been, most importantly, okay, it's worked, but it's been great for me.

• 1:07:13Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:07:14Steven Bartlett?

  As in like, I can show up every day and like my life. Regardless of whether people wanna listen, I can really enjoy this. And that's how I can run this as a marathon opposed to as a sprint, right?

• 1:07:23Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:07:24Steven Bartlett?

  Like when we conform, it's like, I've never seen it be sustainable for my guests when they're like wearing a mask for too long. I could do this for the rest of my life because I'm being myself. Do you see what I mean?

• 1:07:32Speaker 00

  Absolutely.

• 1:07:34Steven Bartlett?

  We have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest asks a question for the next guest, not knowing who they're leaving it for. And the question that's been left for you by our previous guest is,

• 1:07:48Steven Bartlett?

  is there someone from your past that you should have a conversation with that you haven't had? If so, why haven't you had it and what is that conversation?

• 1:08:03Speaker 00

  Hmm, that's a great question.

• 1:08:09Speaker 00

  As my parents get older,

• 1:08:17Speaker 00

  that there's probably some conversations there, particularly with my dad, that I,

• 1:08:26Speaker 00

  I go back and forth on having. And, uh, you know,

• 1:08:34Speaker 00

  a relationship that I might want with him that I think that there's some fear around, maybe he doesn't desire

• 1:08:44Speaker 00

  with me. And, um,

• 1:08:49Speaker 00

  it's a tricky one with parents, it's a tricky one with family, like having deep conversations around what our relationship looks like, or what it looked like growing up, or whatever.

• 1:09:02Speaker 00

  You know, I'm from a family where, you know, you kind of, you smile through it. I think there's a reason why I never heard my parents fight. I think that there is a, um, just be happy. Don't talk about it, just be happy. And, uh, that hasn't been my experience on this earth. And I think that at times it's challenged them.

• 1:09:28Speaker 00

  And then at a certain point, you're like, yo, dude, your dad's 75 years old, like, you know, he is who he is. And, but I think if my dad, if my dad passed tomorrow, um, I would probably feel like there was just, did I really make an effort to connect?

• 1:09:46Speaker 00

  On the level that

• 1:09:50Speaker 00

  that I intuitively wanted to, outside of his reaction to my words.

• 1:09:56Steven Bartlett?

  I completely relate to that. With my own dad.

• 1:10:00Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:10:00Steven Bartlett?

  I completely relate. And I don't know why I've never had the conversation.

• 1:10:06Steven Bartlett?

  I don't know what it is. Is it, I don't think he's got the tools, I've not got the tools, we've not got the tools?

• 1:10:10Speaker 00

  Right. All three?

• 1:10:13Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, all, yeah, all three.

• 1:10:17Speaker 00

  But you probably do have the tools.

• 1:10:22Steven Bartlett?

  I think it's interesting because you can have, I can have the tools with my girlfriend.

• 1:10:26Speaker 00

  That's what I'm saying.

• 1:10:26Steven Bartlett?

  Where we've like learnt together how to do the tools. But then I look over at my dad and I go, we've not figured out how to, how to do this together.

• 1:10:35Speaker 00

  Cause there's like, you know, we go through different, there's like a changing of the guard almost. It's like our parents, you know, my parents were byproducts of, of their parents. And these are very different times in civilization. And where we have gotten to in terms of talking about our emotions and, and mental health and being able to process masculinity or ego or these things, you know, going to therapy or going to a 12 step meeting or, you know, really working on ourselves. Like my dad's never done any of that internal work because that's not what men did in his generation.

• 1:11:16Speaker 00

  And, you know, sure, there's exceptions, but as a whole, um, my dad's generation was different. And I watched the younger generation from, from me and the way that they're fluid and love each other and, and gender is a social construct and these walls are getting torn down. And I'm like, I'm trying to keep up with it and, you know, I'm having my own moments of just like, wait, how does this fit in? What, what is this? And I, I feel old all of a sudden and they're just like, don't you get it? Like this is all fake and I'm, and I'm trying to, you know? So I think that going to, to my dad, there is a certain level of just communication about emotions

• 1:11:59Speaker 00

  that I'm really used to, that he's not. Cause he probably never had those conversations with his dad. His dad was like in the war and had five kids and like just getting a meal on, you know, a meal to each one of those five boys in the house was a struggle alone, much less trying to talk about how you felt. That wasn't part of the day.

• 1:12:19Steven Bartlett?

  But if he wasn't going to respond then, and you had a chance to say those last words, what would those words be irrespective of response or impact or feedback?

• 1:12:32Speaker 00

  You know what I've come to the conclusion of is that.

• 1:12:42Speaker 00

  We're all doing the best that we can do.

• 1:12:48Speaker 00

  My dad's doing the best that he could do. And instead of me, because I have a lot of friends that didn't have a dad at all. Their dad pieced out, you know? And I think it's easy to, particularly when you have kids, you have this idea of what your parents are gonna be like as grandparents. And my grandparents, or my parents are great grandparents. I want them around more. Not even for the childcare, just because I think that family is so important. I think that nuclear family is so important. I think that we have, um, you know, we, we come from like communities

• 1:13:33Speaker 00

  where we helped raise children together and, you know, this porch looked out over to this porch and we had actual tangible, um, human connection.

• 1:13:49Speaker 00

  And I, I think that

• 1:13:53Speaker 00

  I've desired something in my, um, in having kids and, and reflecting on my own childhood and what that was like with my parents now that I'm a dad. And I'm like, oh, I didn't do any of this with my dad. I didn't do, damn, what was my life like? Oh, he, you know, but instead of looking at it like in any way I am a victim, because my dad worked so much or, you know, whatever it was. It's like, my dad was amazing. He worked so much and he provided. And he sent my eyes to rehab. And he sent me to college. And he showed up with love.

• 1:14:34Speaker 00

  And instead of like the opposite of all of that, like he's not doing this, this, this, this, this. I want him to be this, this, this. It's like, my dad is who he is. And, um, it's made me who I am. And sure, I desire a closeness that I don't know if we'll ever get to, you know, or an open level of just hanging out, being okay with that, um, telling him how I really feel. I don't know if that's important.

• 1:15:03Speaker 00

  But.

• 1:15:06Speaker 00

  What's preventing me from having that conversation is that

• 1:15:16Speaker 00

  it's a hard it's a hard conversation to have. Family is so layered. We're not talking about like a friend I met six years ago. We're talking about this person that brought me into this world. Our DNA, the very fabric, the our identity, this it's a lot there. It's a lot there. And um I think sometimes I question if

• 1:15:48Speaker 00

  how much do you push other people to get outside of their comfort zone? I know it's not comfortable. It's not comfortable for me. I definitely wouldn't be comfortable for him. How much do you, I mean, what's preventing you from

• 1:16:01Speaker 00

  talking with your dad?

• 1:16:04Speaker 00

  At whatever level it is.

• 1:16:07Steven Bartlett?

  I think it's probably just, to be honest, I think it's like, I'm gonna say things, but I've just not tried in the way that I should have. It's just feeling like

• 1:16:17Steven Bartlett?

  the bridge to doing that is not there. As in, what I mean by is like I don't think he's got the tools.

• 1:16:25Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:16:25Steven Bartlett?

  And I don't think I've got the tools with him.

• 1:16:30Speaker 00

  Yes. I would say, I would say exactly the same thing.

• 1:16:33Steven Bartlett?

  That's what I mean, you know, because with my, it's funny, in generations, we all seem to be able to do that sideways and down, as you said. So like, you could probably have those conversations with your kids and with your peers.

• 1:16:42Speaker 00

  We do all the time.

• 1:16:44Steven Bartlett?

  But as you've said, when we look up at our parents, the generation they came from, they didn't do podcasts like this where they talked about their feelings and emotions and stuff and mental health and so they didn't learn the tools. And it's like, can you teach an old dog new tools? But it's probably an excuse on my part, because that's why I asked you the question about regardless of how they respond.

• 1:17:02Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:17:03Steven Bartlett?

  If it, if, because like, both of our dads aren't gonna live forever. And what's gonna live on after they've gone is the regret.

• 1:17:09Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:17:10Steven Bartlett?

  And I don't want the regret.

• 1:17:11Speaker 00

  I don't want the regret either.

• 1:17:12Steven Bartlett?

  So I just wanna, I'm, I need to write a letter or something and just send the fucking letter.

• 1:17:16Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:17:17Steven Bartlett?

  You know what I mean?

• 1:17:19Steven Bartlett?

  I guess this is a conversation for another time because you've got a show tonight at Wembley. So I'm going to let you go, but thank you so much for so many things. Thank you first and foremost for creating great music that's brought joy to our lives. But I think even more important than that, music that has helped people in such a profound way. Not everybody does that beyond the views. Like I think you've clearly come to learn that views are one thing and then impact is a completely different thing. And the impact that I just saw in that one video, Drug Dealer, is would be profound enough life work for any one individual, just in the comments section from what I saw. Beyond that, you've repeated that over and over again. And even on your new album, Ben, within the first paragraph of the first song, you're taking me back to your own struggles, which I think is, as we've described, that vulnerability

• 1:18:02Steven Bartlett?

  you demonstrate in these conversations and your interviews and your music is the doorway to connection. And I don't think you'll ever even see the extent to which you've allowed people to feel that connection through your music, through your art and through these conversations. So that's what I want to thank you for. And it's an honour to meet you and to get to do this because I'm a fan of your work. I'm a fan of the man and I'm a fan of everything you've touched. So thank you so much.

• 1:18:22Speaker 00

  God, thank you so much. You're amazing. This is incredible and I really appreciate you having me. You just, you have a light to you that is very impressive and I get it.

• 1:18:34Steven Bartlett?

  Thank you, Ben.