Justin Aversano | Layer Zero

Justin Aversano is the now-famous photographer behind the NFT project Twin Flames, but that doesn’t even begin to cover it. Starting with his birthday project titled Every Day is a Gift, Justin has relentlessly pursued his creative passions, backed by his own personal journey of grief, healing, and growth. Justin has a unique, powerful, and intense story—the grief of his mother passing from cancer and the trauma of losing a twin in the womb inspired a years-long quest for discovery and healing. You can feel the creativity and emotion in his work, and his Twin Flames project has seen tremendous success in both the physical and digital realm. Describing NFTs as the Digital Twin of the Physical Reality, the cohesion of his work and individuality surface as we explore why art matters, and what drives the creative mind. ----- 📣 METAMASK | YOUR HARDWARE WALLET'S BEST FRIEND https://bankless.cc/metamask-shows ------ 🚀 SUBSCRIBE TO NEWSLETTER: https://newsletter.banklesshq.com/ 🎙️ SUBSCRIBE TO PODCAST: http://podcast.banklesshq.com/ ------ BANKLESS SPONSOR TOOLS: 💰 GEMINI | FIAT & CRYPTO EXCHANGE https://bankless.cc/go-gemini​ https://bankless.cc/go-gemini%E2%80%8B 💧LIDO | DECENTRALIZED STAKING https://bankless.cc/Lido 👻 AAVE | LEND & BORROW ASSETS https://bankless.cc/aave 🦄 UNISWAP | DECENTRALIZED FUNDING https://bankless.cc/UniGrants ------ Resources: Justin on Twitter: https://twitter.com/justinaversano?s=20 Justin’s Website: https://www.justinaversano.com/ Quantum Art Discord: https://discord.com/invite/quantum-art SaveArtSpace: https://twitter.com/saveartspace?s=20 ----- Not financial or tax advice. This channel is strictly educational and is not investment advice or a solicitation to buy or sell any assets or to make any financial decisions. This video is not tax advice. Talk to your accountant. Do your own research. Disclosure. From time-to-time I may add links in this newsletter to products I use. I may receive commission if you make a purchase through one of these links. Additionally, the Bankless writers hold crypto assets. See our investment disclosures here: https://newsletter.banklesshq.com/p/bankless-disclosures

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00David Hoffman?

  Did you, you likely didn't realize that it was going to be such an important moment at the moment of taking the photo, right?

• 0:05Speaker 01

  It was like a fun moment, but every time I think about that moment, it was like, it set a whole course for my entire rest of my life.

• 0:16David Hoffman?

  Welcome to Layer Zero. Layer Zero is a podcast of unscripted conversations of the people that make up the Ethereum community. Crypto is built by code, but it's composed by people, and each individual member of the crypto community has their own story to tell. Cyberpunk's understood that the code they write impacts the people that use it. And Layer Zero focuses on the people behind the code because Ethereum is people all the way down, and it always has been. Today, I'm talking with Justin Aversano, the now famous photographer of the Twin Flames Project and before that, the Birthday Project. And Justin is a strapping young lad, clocking in at 28 years old, or maybe 29, and has really just been all about art his entire life.

• 0:59David Hoffman?

  Is one of those guys that wakes up in the morning and just thinks about creating art first and foremost, and then also when he creates, and also when he goes to bed, is creating art through and through and through. And while I tend to recap stories in these intros, I'm going to try my best to not do that and just give you guys some themes. Justin has a very unique story, a relationship with his mother, a twin lost in the womb, and has used photography to tell stories and then accidentally tell a story about himself, and then very much begin to do that on purpose.

• 1:38David Hoffman?

  And he's used art and photography to connect so many different components about his life in a way that was healing to him as an individual, and then ultimately arrives at the world of NFTs in January of 2021. And we talk about how NFTs represent just a great climax to the story at large, to the project that he has, Twin Flames, which is now wrapped, and he has now moved on to his new projects, but has really put a fantastic... Just Bo on top of two fantastic stories of creating these very deep projects with photography. And has now completely just redefined what it means for him to be an artist.

• 2:20David Hoffman?

  And so him and I unpack the significance of NFTs as a means for creating meaning. Is it just some code? And is it just a bunch of crypto people like me saying that NFTs are the most magical thing on the universe? Or is it actually what we say it is as NFTs do allow for human culture and human art to be manifested in ways that could not have been done before? Justin has his own opinions on that, and so I will let him speak now before I go on for too long. But first, a moment to talk about some of these fantastic sponsors that make the show possible. The era of proof of stake is upon us. Proof of stake systems like Ethereum, Terra and Solana allow the industry to move away from the hot,

• 3:03David Hoffman?

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• 3:44David Hoffman?

  Simply go to lido.fi, choose which assets you want to stake and deposit them to the Lido validating network. Lido is working to make sure proof of stake stays as decentralized as possible and is committed to decentralizing its own validating network to eventually become a completely permissionless protocol. So if you want to stake your ETH, Terra or Sol and get liquidity on your stake, go to lido.fi to get started. Gemini is the world's most trusted cryptocurrency exchange. I've been a customer of Gemini since I first got into crypto in 2017 and it's been my main exchange of choice to make my crypto buys and sells. Gemini is available in all 50 states and in over 50 countries worldwide. And on Gemini, there are markets for over 30 various different crypto assets,

• 4:28David Hoffman?

  including many of the hot DeFi tokens. And it's one of the few exchanges that has liquid die markets. Gemini just launched their Earn program, where you can earn up to 7.4% interest on 26 various crypto assets. If you're tired of paying fees in DeFi, or you don't want to worry about DeFi exploits, but you still want to earn interest on your crypto assets, Gemini Earn is the product for you. Another product I'm stoked to get my hands on is the Gemini Crypto Back Credit Card, which gives you 3% cash back on all of your purchases, but paid to you in your preferred crypto asset. When I get my Gemini credit card, I'm going to make sure that I get my cash back in ETH. So whenever I buy something, I get a little bit of ETH bonus back to me at the same time.

• 5:09David Hoffman?

  You can open up a free account in under three minutes at gemini.com/go-bankless. And if you trade more than $100 within the first 30 days after signup, you'll be gifted a free $15 Bitcoin bonus. Check them out at gemini.com/go-bankless. Hey, Justin, how's it going?

• 5:27Speaker 01

  How's it going?

• 5:28David Hoffman?

  Welcome to Layer Zero. You're going to be one of the biggest new NFT person on the Layer Zero shows. Usually, this is about the coders, the cryptographers, the system designers. You are a big artist, a big user, one of the big users of these platforms. I'm really excited to unpack how you've gotten into the world of crypto to bring your creative artistic expression into our world. So, welcome.

• 5:55Speaker 01

  Thanks for having me.

• 5:56David Hoffman?

  So, Justin, a lot of people will know you as the artist behind the Twin Flames NFT project. But I want to start way, way back, all the way back. When did you get into photography? And was it your first love of creative expression?

• 6:12Speaker 01

  Man, we're going back.

• 6:14David Hoffman?

  Yeah.

• 6:15Speaker 01

  So, you know, I've always been a photographer practically most of my life. I'm twenty nine years old. I started photography around the same time I started skateboarding. So for me, those two things went hand in hand. And I was around twelve or thirteen, um, really coming out of being a gamer. Um, basically, since I was two years old, I was a gamer from Nintendo, Super Nintendo on to every console you could imagine. And then falling in love with the outside worlds, um, with skateboarding and photography. But through the time, um, growing up, I was always drawing and I was always creating scenes and,

• 6:58Speaker 01

  you know, making different, uh, theatrical stuff with my toys and, and also drawing and, and vision, vision, vision, visualizing and being a visionary through my ideas. Um, and really activating it through photography, um, when I started, um, middle school.

• 7:20David Hoffman?

  And then like, how did a camera actually like come into your hands?

• 7:26Speaker 01

  You know, I was, I was inspired on MySpace by all the older guys who were skateboarders and I fell in love with what photography they were shooting. Um, and I just wanted to be a photographer too. And I, and I was inspired by, you know, a melon photo that was a macro of, of the ridges and, you know, things like that were like inspiring to me. And they were my favorite skateboarders at the time, growing up in the neighborhood. So, you know, you, it's kind of like monkey see, monkey do. You, you, you're inspired by people, um, in your community who are older. And you want to be like them. You want to do what they're doing because it's cool. And for me, skateboarding and photography were those things that really got me out of the house.

• 8:11Speaker 01

  Uh, made me a healthier person, more social. So in a way, it really like allowed me to come out of my shell.

• 8:21David Hoffman?

  I do remember having a decent number of skateboarding friends like growing up in in middle school and high school and it's funny, it seems like the longer that they went on in the world of skateboarding, more and more of them got into like photography and videography because they all wanted to take like sick videos and sick photos of them of them skateboarding. So there seems to be like this interesting pairing between skateboarders and like either film or photography.

• 8:46Speaker 01

  Exactly, and that's that's what I was experiencing. And then, you know, always being a skater and skating with my camera, very dangerously with my camera around my chest, but I just was, it was a natural. I never really fell on it, only like a couple times. But it was a strong camera. And you know, you go around and you know, you shoot the photography of the skateboarders, but more importantly, like I just photographed what I loved. And I was a street photographer from the beginning. And in art school, I was I was really actively doing street portraiture, street photography. And then by the end of art school, I moved into like closer in on the subject and actually started taking really dynamic portraits.

• 9:31David Hoffman?

  You're really giving me some some throwbacks. I actually like photography was how I had like, you know, basically how I had my own like budget in in college. Like, I always had my Nikon around my neck. And like, all photographers know that there's this inevitable like tug of war behind like, having your camera around you at all times and inevitably like breaking it somehow. Because like, the more that you have it around you, like, the more likely you're is you're just gonna like bump into something and then like, it's it's always this like liability. What kind of camera did you did you like first get really, really good at?

• 10:09Speaker 01

  I'll tell you a little funny story. So my first camera I ordered, I was a busboy at my dad's restaurant when I was 13, and I wanted to buy a camera. And I was on Amazon, and I bought a Canon XT I. Around Christmas time, Black Friday-ish. And I had bought it. And in the description, it said, oh, it comes with a lens, it comes with the camera. And I got the camera in the mail. And I'd spent like five hundred bucks on this thing and it had no lens. So I was like, where the fuck is the lens? So I emailed the Amazon thing, customer support, and I was like, hey, guys, you guys advertised that this comes with a lens and it didn't come with a lens. Can you please send me a lens? And they, and then they responded.

• 10:54Speaker 01

  And for me, I was like, wow, I'm a thirteen year old. And I, and I'm like, coming at them with some legal jargon. And, you know, I was like, I need a lens, man. And then they were like, oh, we weren't supposed to, you know, have a lens with this camera, but you know, since we advertised it that way, we'll send you one for free. And I'm like, great. So I basically got a free lens. And I got it.

• 11:17David Hoffman?

  And for those that don't know, lenses can be even more expensive than the actual body of the camera oftentimes. So having a free lens, it's, it's not like a tip, like it's, sometimes it's the whole entire thing.

• 11:27Speaker 01

  So, yeah, I got the, the lens in the mail. And then I was excited, I finally put the two pieces together because I've been sitting with this camera mirrorless for like a fucking week. And then I got the lens. And then the first photo I ever took really was of my mom. And that was to me like one of the most important moments of my life.

• 11:48David Hoffman?

  Do you still have that photo?

• 11:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:50David Hoffman?

  Yeah. Well, uh, did you, you likely didn't realize that it was going to be such an important moment at the moment of taking the photo, right?

• 12:00Speaker 01

  You know, it was like a fun moment, but every time I think about that moment, it was like, it set a whole course for my entire rest of my life. And when I look at that photo and I look at her looking at me, and she passed away a few years ago. Um, it's really like a powerful image of how she's looking at me because for me, it was, you know, the really time, really the first time as a young adult, I actually like, looked into my mom's eyes or like had that connection with her through something other than just being around at the house. And, and whatnot going around town. But really like engaging in a way that I haven't with my mom before. And it was so powerful and it really like.

• 12:43Speaker 01

  It inspired the rest of my life and career and gave me strength to be an artist. Cause I don't know, just that gesture and look she gave me was like all I ever needed to get the, hit the ground running and be who I am today.

• 12:57David Hoffman?

  Were you having these reflections like relatively around the moment of you taking the photograph? Are you saying that? No?

• 13:04Speaker 01

  No, this has been current, like every time I think of that photo, it really strikes me, I think maybe in hindsight and retroactively thinking of when I took that photo and, and how beautiful the light and like my mom's look at me and her being, you know, fighting cancer and like all these different things in that moment, it was just pure joy and fun. And I'm testing out the camera, but when I look at that photo, it's like more meaningful than a test shot. It's like, this is like a memory of my mom that like literally was like the first picture I've ever taken in my life.

• 13:42David Hoffman?

  Was she posing or was it candid?

• 13:44Speaker 01

  It was like a candid acceptance look.

• 13:49David Hoffman?

  Like fine, fine. You can take a photo of me type of look?

• 13:53Speaker 01

  Just like gentle and likes, you know, guard is down and really like opening herself up. You know, accepting this photo shoot and not being insecure, you know, cause it's easy to be insecure when you're, you know, going through cancer and you know, it's, it's tough. But for me, it was like, it was strength for both of us. It was, it was a moment that really connected us as mother and son like, like never before.

• 14:22David Hoffman?

  Was it, do you think it has anything to do with the fact that when you take a photograph, you're, you're taking, you're taking a snapshot in time and you're given the ability to reflect upon that one specific snapshot in greater detail because you actually have something to look at, right? Like you, well, no, I'm not looking at my mom. I'm looking at a photograph of my mom and I can pause and you know, zoom in and analyze and parse apart and look at a picture of my mom that, you know, it looked kind of like you were saying. You had never looked at your mom in that way before and it was probably, you know, I think a lot of us go around our, our loved ones. That, you know, they're about, you know, they're, you know, putting the dishes away. They're just living their life in your apartment and you, you kind of forget to really look at them.

• 15:07David Hoffman?

  And is that kind of what you're saying with?

• 15:09Speaker 01

  Oh, a hundred percent like it's not a look, it's being seen in the most honorable, respectful, like intimate way you can be present with someone. It really was being present with someone in the most ultimate way.

• 15:27David Hoffman?

  And this was a digital photograph, right? Not a film?

• 15:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, when I started photography, I bought a digital camera and then when I went into art school in 2010. So I was shooting from, let's say 2005 till,

• 15:47Speaker 01

  and I, until 2010 is when I got into college. And that's when I started shooting film.

• 15:54Speaker 01

  Cause that was the first, you know, the first assignment was to go in the darkroom and print and, and develop your negatives. Coming from digital, I've honestly fell in love with being in the darkroom and, and seeing the magic of the paper. Come to life when you're shaking the negative chemistry. And that's when I was like, I am never shooting digital ever again.

• 16:17David Hoffman?

  I, I remember taking photography class in high school, which was a film class with a darkroom. And this wasn't really much of a problem back then, but everyone, you know, even, I thought even high schoolers were like constantly on their phones. Those days and the darkroom such like an oasis because it's dark, like you can't bring your phone in there. It, it messes up the photographs and not only that, but like you, when you're in the darkroom, you are, only have one thing to focus on, which is a deep connection to the creative process. There's nothing else to think about. It's like not, it's kind of like a sensory deprivation tank. Except the only sense that you have is the creation of the, of the, of the film photograph.

• 16:57David Hoffman?

  And I think a lot of people in, in society these days have, it's a little bit of a surreal experience these days. Because like you're totally cut off from the beeps and the sounds and the LCD screens. And you only have this one deep creative thing to think about.

• 17:12David Hoffman?

  Am I kind of tapping into one of the, the energy that you really like?

• 17:14Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. I mean, it's like, it is a sensory deprivation room. And the only light that you see is the 10 seconds when you're exposing the paper. And then you're like fumbling around in the dark, trying to make sure that that paper's in the paper safe. And you don't fucking expose it because you forgot to put it in there.

• 17:35David Hoffman?

  Uh, Justin, what was your relationship with the internet at this time? Because the, the average like crypto coder that I, I talked to on these layer zeros, they, they all kind of tell me a similar story of like, oh yeah. I got a computer really relatively early in my life. What, what was your relationship with, with the internet?

• 17:53Speaker 01

  So my, my first experience with the computer was really to play like Legoland as a kid. And having fun with roller coaster tycoon and like, I'm a huge, I was a huge gamer. I have love for it. And I think the gaming really led me into computers. Um, World of Warcraft and, you know, all those, you know, games online and those websites that existed early 2000s. Um, that we all probably went on, Ebaum's World and all those weird fun games. And so that was my, you know, experience with the internet. And then AIM and just messaging, then it went to MySpace.

• 18:34Speaker 01

  Um, and a lot of computer gaming, like Battlefield 2042 as a, as a young, youngling. And just always being a gamer and knowing how to navigate just the computer for that. And, and hitting up my friends to go hang out.

• 18:49David Hoffman?

  But nothing about uploading your digital photographs into some photo editor or anything like that?

• 18:55Speaker 01

  Oh, I mean, yeah, Photoshop.

• 18:59David Hoffman?

  Yeah?

• 19:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, using Photoshop on the computer.

• 19:03David Hoffman?

  Right. But then you went into the, into the darkroom and were like, oh, this is way better?

• 19:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, but I still use Photoshop just to put my stuff online.

• 19:12David Hoffman?

  Uh, when, when did it ever, was there ever a moment where you're like, oh yeah, I, I want to make money doing this? Uh, doing this, this passion, this photography? And then how did you actually go about achieving that?

• 19:25Speaker 01

  You know, it's funny, like.

• 19:29Speaker 01

  When I was in school, I never really thought about making money.

• 19:32David Hoffman?

  Hmm.

• 19:32Speaker 01

  I I only thought about making art.

• 19:34David Hoffman?

  Hmm.

• 19:34Speaker 01

  And learning and being educated and using my uh time at SVA, School of Visual Arts, to just keep learning and having fun and it it never really was about money. Um, and even like seeing everyone else in school, like shooting for Vogue, shooting for Gucci, whatever brands, I was like, eh, I never wanted to be a commercial photographer anyway. I was pretty much more so trained to wanna be a museum photographer or, you know, some sort of serious artist, like a Warhol of our generation, someone who really made an impact and created works that people can't forget.

• 20:16Speaker 01

  And I think, you know, that was always my drive. It wasn't ever about money. It was always about, you know, the work and the creation and and what makes it relevant and what makes people care. And, you know, I think to be a good artist, you really gotta just, you know, have the drive to wanna be seen and create everlasting things that are timeless and, you know, have a place in history that that makes you different.

• 20:47David Hoffman?

  So when you're making these uh the the photographs in the darkroom, that's not the last step, of course, in the creative process. The last step is actually displaying these things in a way that also have an impact. So what what what's the uh if if you're creating this art for the sake of creating art, how do you actually, uh what was your plan for actually expressing this art to the rest of the world? Because again, if you're not, you know, if you're not money driven, you are art driven. What is the performance, uh if you will, about how to display to display your your photographs?

• 21:20Speaker 01

  I think a lot of it comes from, you know, there's a lot of practice involved. And to create a project like Twin Flames, or even Everyday is a Gift, The Birthday Project, it just comes from pure inspiration in a divine moment, at any point in time that really sets the tone for a whole project. But prior to those major projects, I was just in creation mode. I was in, I was finding what I liked to shoot. I was finding my style. I was building consistency in the way I shoot, learning the craft, learning everything about the printing processes, all sorts of them, alternative process, silk screen process, like really finding out what I really love to do, and what I really didn't like to do,

• 22:05Speaker 01

  and filtering through, through using school, and learning philosophy, and attributing philosophy to the concepts of the work. You know, it was really just a huge filtering process of where I want to take this, and what is my communication through the medium that I want to create? And so, honestly, the only major project I did during art school was The Birthday Project, and it was my first taste in like, wow, this is a serious project that people can stand by and understand when they see it. And that's just a project where I photographed someone every day of the year with a Polaroid camera on their birthday without missing a day. And I did that every single day in 2020, in 2012 to 2013,

• 22:49Speaker 01

  as a senior thesis project. And then from there on out, I really stopped taking random type of photos, and I started really thinking heavily in projects and themes. And I think learning about other photographers works in the history of photography or in contemporary art. You see that they all work in different themes that tell a bigger story than just the one photograph. And I think that's where I started, that's where my aha moment was, oh, I need to make a serious project. And it was The Birthday Project, and then, and then it took me time to find Twin Flames and really activate that and start making that work.

• 23:31David Hoffman?

  So there's a lot of famous photographers out there and the classic example is Ansel Adams. And he has these great images that you can look at and you can just look at them and just be astounded by how they look as an individual photograph. But you're talking about the art itself isn't the single photograph or not even the whole entire project at large, but it's also the process of creating the project that is also the art. So it seems to me that you're making a hybrid of what the art actually is, is a hybrid of good fantastically composed photography of a bunch of common themes, but also really the art is the story of how it was created. Is that true?

• 24:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, you need the story. It's the mythology. We're creating mythology as we're shooting and in time. You know, we look at the Greeks and the sculptures and the marble and you know, the Renaissance, Jesus paintings and you know, where are we in that timestamp of history in 20, in the 2000s, 2010? And for me, you know, using classic portraiture and film cameras and a theme, that's where I made my mark, I would say. And it is, it is a balance between the subject and the story because the subject conveys the story that's being told in the greater narrative of the cohesive project that goes together.

• 24:59Speaker 01

  And then when you see it exhibited together or in a book, you get the story without even have to reading the artist's statement.

• 25:09David Hoffman?

  Right. So when you, your first project was the birthday project and we'll, I think we'll go into more detail in just a second, but when was there the aha moment of that this piece of art that you're about to create is not just the photographs before you got it started on the project? Or did you realize that maybe the art was going to be something more than just the some of the photographs, maybe towards like after you finished taking all the photographs? When did you realize it was going to become more than just the photographs individually? Or was that the whole purpose going into it?

• 25:41Speaker 01

  Well, I'll just give you some insight in where that project came from and my thought process.

• 25:46David Hoffman?

  Sure.

• 25:48Speaker 01

  Cause there's like three stages, I would say. The first stage was I was in a self-portrait class in my sophomore year of college and

• 25:59Speaker 01

  One of the projects was take a photo of yourself as, as, as the other gender. And for me, I was like, I want to take a Polaroid of myself on the street corner with my best friend and be prostitutes. And so like, that was the fun little idea. And do a whole like Polaroid narrative of that. And then I had the Polaroid camera sitting at my house. And I had had a hard house party. I was living in like a five bedroom house in Bushwick, Bed-Stuy. And it was just nonstop parties all the time. I'm, I don't even like to party. I just like to make art and chill. But like the roommates I had were partiers, drinkers. And so we would always have parties because that would, would, would pay the rent.

• 26:42Speaker 01

  And, you know, we had a party the night before and then it's like two in the morning and I'm on mushrooms and I get a knock at the door and I'm like, who the fuck is here? Like, what's going on? And it's my friend Brian with two of his girlfriends. And one of which he said, oh, could we come in? Is, is the party still happening? I'm like, bro, the party was yesterday, but you could come in, smoke some joints. Like, let's, let's hang out. Yeah, you're here. And then we sat on the couch and he, he's like, hey, it's my friend's birthday today. And I'm like, oh shit, happy birthday. And I looked at her and then I looked at the Polaroid. And in that moment, I like stood up like, and like I had a lightning bolt

• 27:23Speaker 01

  pu- pu- pierced through my crown choker into my body and my heart and like electrified me. And it was like, oh my God. And I held the Polaroid in my hand. I'm like, I grabbed it. I'm like, I looked at her. I'm like, oh my God, I'm going to start a birthday project. And every day of the year, I'm going to photograph someone on their birthday.

• 27:41David Hoffman?

  Did you say that out loud or was that in your head?

• 27:44Speaker 01

  Ah, man, I think, uh, I don't think I said that out loud.

• 27:49David Hoffman?

  Okay, okay.

• 27:50Speaker 01

  It just came to me and I don't even remember the rest of the night because that was the only thing I remembered.

• 27:55David Hoffman?

  Hmm. But you did take her photograph?

• 27:57Speaker 01

  I did not take her photograph.

• 27:58David Hoffman?

  Oh, you didn't take her photograph? Oh, no.

• 28:00Speaker 01

  No, because, because it was close to my birthday.

• 28:04David Hoffman?

  Ah.

• 28:05Speaker 01

  It, and I, I think that that was around September 12th. And then my birthday is September twenty third, so. There was another party on September twenty second. And I was gonna start the project on my birthday and be the self, the first self-portrait of the day. And then the party on the twenty second. One of my friends, it was their her birthday. So I was like, you know what? Fuck it. I'm gonna start a day early. Like, what's the, what, what could, what's the harm here? And I photographed her. And then the next day I drove upstate and went to Bear Mountain and I had a photograph of my, my dog. Tea, uh. Tortilla. Um, in my hand, arms, like a big ass husky.

• 28:48Speaker 01

  And then wearing my like hippie fucking hoodie. Um, that you could find on any boardwalk. Um, and, and like the project started and then. You know, every day I would, you know, like hit up all my friends. Hey, do you know anyone whose birthday it is? I would check Facebook. See whose birthday it is. I would go to school and, you know, it was so, it was very, very, very difficult. The first three months, cause I, it was very stressful. And then after three months. It got to the point where I hadn't calendars marked. I had people ready who were excited to be in it, like who would text me. They knew whose birthday it was and I would actually go around with a sign that says, is it your birthday today on, on the streets of New York?

• 29:29Speaker 01

  So the first time I did that really broke me out of my shell. And this is why I feel like I'm a social person now. Is because I literally endured a whole year of fucking going out there. Looking everyone in the face in New York City with a sign that says, is it your birthday today? And I would literally say, is it your birthday today? Is it your birthday today? Is it your birthday today? Is it? And until I found someone. And there are so many liars, like, it's my birthday. I'm like, really? And they're like, nah. I'm like, what the fuck? It happens.

• 29:56David Hoffman?

  Get out of my way.

• 29:58Speaker 01

  It happened so many times. I would even check their IDs. Uh, make sure it's legit.

• 30:04David Hoffman?

  Do, do you feel, how many photographs were there? Three hundred and sixty five?

• 30:08Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 30:09David Hoffman?

  Yeah, so, uh, do you feel like every single one actually was their birthday? Every single one, a hundred percent hit rate?

• 30:16Speaker 01

  I mean, I'm, I, I'm, I'm a hundred percent positive, although I have a suspicion that one of them was a lie.

• 30:23David Hoffman?

  Okay, okay, all, all.

• 30:24Speaker 01

  Cause he was a younger kid, cause he was like thirteen, he didn't have an ID and. My friend was like trying to hook me up, but I feel like he kinda fucked me over. But you know what? Uh, it, it, it wouldn't be a project if there wasn't one liar.

• 30:39David Hoffman?

  Sure, yeah, yeah, absolutely. Well, I, I'm sure there were a number of times where maybe, I don't know, it's like nine PM, 10 PM, and you haven't taken your photograph yet, and you're like, shit, shit, shit, shit. Only one time?

• 30:51Speaker 01

  It was 11 o'clock at night.

• 30:53David Hoffman?

  So, I mean.

• 30:54Speaker 01

  I was losing my mind.

• 30:55David Hoffman?

  In your head, you're like, dude, if, if the clock strikes midnight, I'm out? Or is it kind of like a before I go to bed type thing? What were your rules?

• 31:03Speaker 01

  My rule was midnight.

• 31:04David Hoffman?

  Midnight?

• 31:05Speaker 01

  I'm dead. I told myself I'll kill myself if I don't fucking shoot that someone.

• 31:10David Hoffman?

  Okay, so the, the day.

• 31:12Speaker 01

  It was life or death.

• 31:15David Hoffman?

  Well, when you put it like that. So what was the day that, that you had the biggest buzzer beater? What was that like?

• 31:21Speaker 01

  I always say in November or was it February? And I had someone whose birthday it was. I was just driving from city to Long Island, and the kid was in Long Island, and it was 11:30. And like I pulled up, the kid wasn't there yet, and then I see... And then I forgot my camera, that's what happened.

• 31:39David Hoffman?

  What?

• 31:40Speaker 01

  That's what happened. I got there, my friend had a drive from the city with my Polaroid. He, he was pulling up, and then the kid whose birthday was pulling up, and they both stopped. And then the kid got out, my friend got out, I grabbed the camera. I ran, I grabbed the kid, and I photographed him, and then I was like, ugh.

• 32:00David Hoffman?

  Another 24 hours to go.

• 32:02Speaker 01

  And then I think I found someone that same night, so I could just chill for the rest of the day. I photographed a lot of people at midnight, just so I could have a, have the day to like chill.

• 32:11David Hoffman?

  Right, right. That's crazy, man.

• 32:13Speaker 01

  It's very stressful.

• 32:14David Hoffman?

  Yeah, uh, the, did you know that you wanted to do it every single day for a year on day one?

• 32:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:22David Hoffman?

  Yeah?

• 32:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:23David Hoffman?

  Right, okay, damn, that, that's pretty neat, and then.

• 32:26Speaker 01

  Just to see if I could do it. And if I said, if I, if I, I said to myself, if I could get past November, from September to November, then I could definitely finish this.

• 32:35David Hoffman?

  You said it was your senior thesis. Did you graduate college by the time it was over?

• 32:40Speaker 01

  So I started in 2012, September, and then I finished it 2012 in September. And then.

• 32:47David Hoffman?

  2013, September?

• 32:49Speaker 01

  2014, May was when I graduated.

• 32:52David Hoffman?

  Okay.

• 32:54Speaker 01

  So I started at around, uh...

• 32:58Speaker 01

  Oh, isn't my sophomore year? Shut up, man, I don't even remember.

• 33:04David Hoffman?

  Talk a little bit about how you used it to come out of your shell. Because again, I have a pretty similar experience. I was the kind of the resident photographer for my fraternity in college. And I was also kind of an introvert. And so I kind of used like the camera to kind of hide behind, but also as an excuse to like introduce myself to people. It's like a great conversation starter. It's like, hey, I've got a camera. Who wants their photo taken? And everyone in college wants their photo taken. Talk a little bit about how you like, you know, formulated your identity using it.

• 33:34Speaker 01

  So when I was in high school, I was the same way. I was like the photographer. I always had my camera. All the kids at school knew me for different reasons, whether I'm a skateboarder or a pothead or an artist. And I just was friends with everyone, every friend group. I was never like in any clique. I was always walking between, you know, the gangster kids or the preppy kids or the skater kids. You know, I was hanging out with everybody just because it's who I am. And, you know, I was always friendly. But when it comes to strangers and like people on the street, I really became fearless and just let go of any insecurity just by literally like putting yourself out there in the world,

• 34:19Speaker 01

  being a performer in a way where I was like literally carrying a sign where to the point where people are handing me dollars. And I'm like, I'm not fucking homeless. Like, I just want to shoot people on their birthday. I don't know how else I could communicate that to the world visually without like. So I would just go do that. And I really, over time, it really fucking tears you down to not give a shit and just enable you to literally talk to anyone in the world. And I think that endurance, that practice of literally putting yourself out there to the point where people can make fun of you, but you take yourself so, you take yourself so seriously where I don't even give a fuck what anyone thinks of me because I have a goal and I'm driven and I always meet my goal.

• 35:04Speaker 01

  And I'm, and I could talk to anyone in the world if I, if I wanted to. And that's just how, who I wanted to be and, and that, and that project through the practice of being out, being, putting yourself out there. It's like, there's nothing left after that.

• 35:17David Hoffman?

  Right. Do you think that this was a fortunate byproduct of creating these art series? Or do you think perhaps maybe it's actually one of the main reasons why you had the motivation to stick with it? Like, maybe it was actually kind of the reason, perhaps?

• 35:34Speaker 01

  You know, I think it's both because I enjoy meeting people. I enjoy meeting new people. And I think for me, it's like, I would love to know everyone on earth just because I feel like it would create a better earth. Um, by people being connected and not being strangers and everyone being friendly and like a place where literally you could walk down the street and know everyone. And like, maybe that's my utopian desire. Um, but you know, there are like eight billion people in the world and I don't think anyone could be friendly with everyone. But there's eight million people in New York City and I probably said, is it your birthday to like at least a million of them?

• 36:10David Hoffman?

  Mm hmm. Uh, so this project took you a year. Um, and it's not like you were charging the birthday people to get their photos taken. How, how were you like sustaining yourself financially during this time?

• 36:23Speaker 01

  I bought all the film upfront and it's just a Polaroid. So literally it's just one expense of like 5,000 bucks.

• 36:30David Hoffman?

  Okay.

• 36:30Speaker 01

  To buy 52 packs, cause there's eight photos in each pack. And each pack was like 20 bucks. So that's around like a thousand bucks or so. I don't even know. And I would just, I would only shoot one photo per person.

• 36:47David Hoffman?

  Right. But yeah, but what about like rent and gas and food and all, all like the, the, you know, the perils of being alive? What about all that?

• 36:56Speaker 01

  So in New York, um, I don't have a car. I, I eat like rice and beans or pita and hummus. So I like ate for like five dollars a day. Um, I'm not extravagant. I don't go out drinking. I don't spend money. The only thing I would buy was weed. And had a budget for weed every month and be be smart with that. So, you know, I never really liked spending money on stuff. Just unless it was art supplies. So, you know, I were I worked and did photo jobs that paid like a thousand bucks and, you know, rent was only like six hundred bucks. So I was living under my means and selling and selling art when I could, you know, doing everything I could, mostly photo gigs and art sales.

• 37:39David Hoffman?

  I I recently watched a movie about uh rock climbers and the the more hardcore of a rock climber you are, the more like minimalist lifestyle you tend to be. Uh is what I've I've gathered because these guys, these people don't care about like, you know, making money or like, you know, having this. This like long term career projection, blah, blah, blah. They just want to do the thing that they care about, right? They are optimized. For the rock climbers like optimized to climb the rocks. So it kind of sounds like what your lifestyle is, but you instead of climbing rocks, you are taking photographs.

• 38:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, you know, as you say that I think of like a simple life that I dreamed to have is living by a fucking. You know, ocean line in Malibu in like a mobile van life with a surfboard and just surfing every day. And then whenever I need to work, I just. Work from the car.

• 38:33David Hoffman?

  Right, yeah, yeah.

• 38:34Speaker 01

  That's like a that's like a dream, a silly little dream.

• 38:38David Hoffman?

  Well, hopefully, uh towards the end of this conversation, we'll talk about the NFCs. Uh we definitely will. Um and then we can talk about how that might. Come become a reality later, but let's let's keep on going after the birthday project. Uh so you you had your first big uh project. Did it like blow up? So like, what was the uh result uh of this product or project? Or was it just like?

• 39:00Speaker 01

  So funny you say that because it's definitely something that's worthy of being viral, because if you look at the video on my website, it's. Pretty fucking compelling, like no one in the world has ever done what I did. About birthdays with people like made a calendar of people on their birthdays with a Polaroid. Like the camera itself lends itself to the concept. And I always think about that when I'm making the art is how does the the tool relate itself to the medium? Like when you look at Twin Flames, I shot with a twin lens reflex camera. It has two lenses, so I think very deeply when it comes to the project, the theme, the paper I used for the theme. You know, with my new project, Smoke and Mirrors, it's tarot project.

• 39:43Speaker 01

  And so with the tarot in mind, I'm using papyrus paper because the esoteric tarot scrolls remind me of the ancient mysticism in Egypt. And you know, my heritage is from there, being Jewish. It's like, it's, it's the core of my being to like honor the ancestors and the paper lends itself to the, to the project. And I think of these terms.

• 40:06David Hoffman?

  And how was the birthday project like, you know, broadcasted, if you will? Like, how, how did you get eyeballs on the project?

• 40:14Speaker 01

  So, but this was before Instagram really like took off. And I wanted to make it a book. I was trying to get book publishers, no one really cared. You know, I wasn't established enough for them to care, but it was such a, it's such a great project. And I think when I release it as an NFT next year, people will actually want to make a book of it or whatever. Um, it will really, 10 years later, have a whole new foundation to stand on. But then in art school, I just exhibited it in the hallway of the school. And you could tell everyone in that school really like took it in and was like, holy shit. Like this is the project this kid did and here it is.

• 40:58Speaker 01

  You know, and I had Velcro tape and I Velcroed all of them to the wall. And it's just like stood there like a presence. And you know, I always wanted to make a book. I always wanted to exhibit at the MoMA, like these are my goals.

• 41:12Speaker 01

  You know, and now with NFTs, it could really change the, change that and actually be, be where I wanted to be 10 years ago.

• 41:19David Hoffman?

  How, how, when it was displayed at school, you said it was on, on Velcro. How, how is it actually like configured? Was it like 365 in a line?

• 41:27Speaker 01

  One grid, one big ass grid. I like making grids when I make projects. You'll see in every project I do, there's always a grid because I feel like it creates this awe, sublime feeling being like.

• 41:39Speaker 01

  envisioned envisioned in front of this big ass project that took a year to do and you see the whole year in one moment it's like pretty powerful so I did it by like seven rows fifty two images per row um cuz seven days a week and it's just fifty two days in the year um it was pretty you know it's pretty powerful to have up there

• 42:02David Hoffman?

  and they were all were they sequential

• 42:05Speaker 01

  oh yeah everything I do and everything I exhibit is always in chronological order

• 42:09David Hoffman?

  cool

• 42:10Speaker 01

  just so you could see the progression of me as an artist and how I shoot

• 42:13David Hoffman?

  right nice love it yeah could you tell differences be- behind like the photo photographs that you took at the start of the year versus the end of the year

• 42:24Speaker 01

  yeah you could see the color temperature on the photos because the the film itself is is affected by the temperature so when it was really fucking cold during a blizzard you would see it like really blue

• 42:36David Hoffman?

  no way

• 42:36Speaker 01

  extremely hot you would see orange or red or yellow and it was like it really embodied the temperature outside and you know you could see my thought process in it like seeing there's a person who's buried and it's the gravestone on their birthday it's a baby being born on that day it's people having sex on their birthday it's like you could see all the birthday stuff in ideas throughout the project and you could see my eye wanting to find different ways like you would there's one photo where there's girls like in the mid like far far far out and I'm shooting from afar like just because of scale and there's one photo I'm like super close

• 43:16Speaker 01

  just playing around and like doing everything imaginative imaginative like all forms

• 43:23David Hoffman?

  did you actually take photos of someone having sex on their birthday was that a real

• 43:27Speaker 01

  yeah January twenty six

• 43:28David Hoffman?

  no way

• 43:30Speaker 01

  yeah you go to my website you'll see it

• 43:31David Hoffman?

  oh I think I will

• 43:33Speaker 01

  a lot of nudes too

• 43:35David Hoffman?

  really just because if people decided to get in their birthday suit on their birthday

• 43:39Speaker 01

  birthday suit

• 43:40David Hoffman?

  yeah

• 43:41Speaker 01

  birthday suit

• 43:42David Hoffman?

  I'm sure somebody thought of that and thought that was a great idea and I'm sure somebody next thought of that as well and then you were like haha somebody else thought of that first

• 43:50Speaker 01

  well it had like one naked guy and one naked girl and they were actually people who were dating each other

• 43:55David Hoffman?

  oh nice nice whose idea was it to get naked the guys or the girls

• 44:00Speaker 01

  it was mine

• 44:03Speaker 01

  I was like, guys, we're gonna need to get you in your birthday suit for the project. Like strictly because of the birthday suit I concept.

• 44:11David Hoffman?

  And were they the only people that you prompted with that proposition?

• 44:16Speaker 01

  Or? My one best friend at the time got naked because he wanted to be naked.

• 44:21David Hoffman?

  That's absolutely hilarious. Oh, my gosh, I'm sure there are just absolutely the project itself. I mean, is that why you really like the projects? It's because they have like the density of these stories like I I want to go on to the next project, but there are so many different like micro stories inside of this project. Is that why you like like these things so much?

• 44:40Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 44:41David Hoffman?

  Yeah.

• 44:42Speaker 01

  Because they take a life of them their own. And there are stories within the project. There's narratives within and it just it's forever is life. And we could talk about this one project for a long, long time, but we should move on to twin flames.

• 44:56David Hoffman?

  Yeah, OK, so it it sounds like after you finish this project, you're like, oh, yeah, this whole like project style of art, I am totally down for. This is what I want to do. Is that about right?

• 45:06Speaker 01

  A hundred percent. And that's all I think of.

• 45:08David Hoffman?

  And then how did when the twin flames idea come about? And how did that idea get accepted?

• 45:16Speaker 01

  There was like different stages of the so in 2016, I visited shamans in Peru. Going through addiction stuff and loss of my mom and grief and not handling that well and always being on mushrooms and.

• 45:34David Hoffman?

  What year did your mom die?

• 45:36Speaker 01

  2014.

• 45:37David Hoffman?

  2014.

• 45:37Speaker 01

  She died a year after I took her birthday photo.

• 45:41David Hoffman?

  To the day?

• 45:43Speaker 01

  Literally almost to the day like I photographed her January 16th, 2013. And then I photo I photographed her that day and then she passed away January 18th, 2014.

• 45:54David Hoffman?

  Four days after her birthday?

• 45:55Speaker 01

  Two days.

• 45:56David Hoffman?

  Excuse me, two days. Yeah, bad math. Um, wow, OK.

• 46:01Speaker 01

  And that was the last time I ever photographed her.

• 46:03David Hoffman?

  Right. Interesting. And well, uh, it's cool that she, her last photograph was in the project.

• 46:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, that photo project was actually for her to honor her life and for the teachings she gave me to celebrate people, celebrate life, cherish memories and, you know, like, it was actually an honor of my mom.

• 46:24David Hoffman?

  What about the specific, like, project was right to give your mom? Was there something about birthdays or, or it's just the fact that you wanted to honor her because she was the first person you photographed? Well, why was it like, why was it the right thing to give to her?

• 46:39Speaker 01

  You know, it's all those reasons. It's, it's both, you know, she was dying of cancer, so I wanted to show her who I was in the world and what I'm capable of and, you know, celebrating life and the teachings and,

• 46:57Speaker 01

  and the first photograph and it being her last is kind of symbolic too.

• 47:03David Hoffman?

  The, the cool thing I really like about this artist and the concept of art is that I think society progresses. At large, we progress as a society, but it's the artists that are first. Artists are, are the people spearheading this thing. So maybe when, when you're giving your mom this project, you're kind of letting her get a glimpse into your own future, even though you don't even know what that future is like. Like, hey, mom, here's what I'm gonna do. Here's like what I'm, what I'm up to and like, you know, you, you imagine the trajectory, mom. But here's, here's the material to do so.

• 47:37Speaker 01

  I mean, it's more of her, in her honor.

• 47:39David Hoffman?

  Okay.

• 47:40Speaker 01

  Cause she'd passed away while I was, like, after I finished it. So it's just, it's like one of those things when you're writing a book, like, in the memory of my father, my, you know, it's for her.

• 47:51David Hoffman?

  Okay.

• 47:51Speaker 01

  And you'll see the same thing in my Twin Flames book, in memory of my twin.

• 47:55David Hoffman?

  Right, right. Okay. So yeah, let's, let's get into, into Twin Flames. When did the Twin Flames idea become incepted?

• 48:01Speaker 01

  So like I was saying, I was working with shamans in Peru and I had taken San Pedro, Wa Chuma, and I had communicated with my mom in that.

• 48:12David Hoffman?

  This is a psychoactive drug?

• 48:14Speaker 01

  It's a, it's a sacred medicine. That you drink. It's like cactus smoothie. It's pretty gross.

• 48:21David Hoffman?

  Kind of like peyote?

• 48:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, peyote's gentle cousin.

• 48:26David Hoffman?

  Okay, okay.

• 48:28Speaker 01

  Um, and so, you know, I was, I was on it and then I was in communication with my mom in the spirit world and she was telling me it's okay, everything's okay, like proud of you and like just things that built my esteem, my self-esteem and really helped me let go of any addiction or insecurities I was having. And the funny thing is, you know, it really set a tone for my healing. And there were twin shamans who were conducting the ceremonies. So, you know, they were really, they became really good friends and I feel like it was that moment of stepping into a healing phase that they came into my life and they were there. And then the next year in 2017,

• 49:12Speaker 01

  when I was at an exhibition that I was curating on Valentine's Day, a set of twins, Ally and Jilly Glatt, were like the art world twins who were always at gallery shows in the Lower East Side and they came in and in similar experience I had with the birthday project, I was holding my Polaroid because at that time I was always shooting people at events and being like a Warhol dash snow person, having fun at gallery shows and meeting people through my Polaroid and, you know, that's who I always was. And I, and I took their picture and I held their picture in my hand and I was like, and I looked at it and I had that fucking same feeling that I was like, oh my God, like I gotta do a twin project, like it's just gonna happen. And I went up to them later that day and like

• 49:58Speaker 01

  said to them, look, I'm gonna start doing a twin project. Let me get my gear and I'll, and I'll, and I'll contact you and we'll, we'll start. And so, this project was, I call it the healing journey. Um, and it, and it does come from losing my twin in my mom's womb before I was born because my mom had three miscarriages, one before, during and after me. And I was like a twin survivor and I kind of absorbed my twin. Um, and so.

• 50:33Speaker 01

  And so that it was it I I started uncovering like the healing and and actually as I was shooting the project, it kept it like the the messages came from the project of why I was even doing this. You know, I was, you know, I was I was seeking something in my heart that I was trying to put my thumb on, but and by the end of it, by the second San Pedro ceremony, it totally made sense what I was doing. It was all unconscious and I'm excavating the subconscious and bring it to the surface of trauma. And it was all prenatal trauma, which is very difficult to put to to activate unless you you do that deep dive in in healing.

• 51:14Speaker 01

  And so I went to Peru again to photograph the twins shamans. And by that time, I was almost done with the project, so I flew to Peru just to photograph them. Did another San Pedro ceremony and this time I was talking to my twin. And her name is Alessia and her nickname was Butterfly and there was a psychic medium there and she was channeling her. And there was this like exorcism that had happened as well. Um, there was a lot of crazy shit going on during that uh week in Peru. But it was in that moment, in that ceremony, I realized like, oh shit, this is in honor of my twin. Like this is to heal from my loss of my sister like

• 51:58Speaker 01

  and and and let go of the guilt and shame of surviving and her not. And and also realizing that that those three miscarriages actually were a signifier for my mom getting ovarian cancer and leading to her death. So it's like all these things are connected and it's all in hindsight that you realize what the fuck's actually going on. But when you're creating the art, you're just following intuition blindly and creating and then the the the photos tell a bigger story personally that actually help you discover who you are.

• 52:33David Hoffman?

  Prior to starting this uh twin project, how much uh how conscious were you of like the the trauma that you had from from uh your your twin like is this something that you were able to articulate before starting the project? Or was it the project that really allowed you to introspect and see it, see it for how it really was?

• 52:53Speaker 01

  I um so my mom told me I lost my twin when I was like two or three years old in the car when we were moving from Elmont to Holbrook. And then she like never brought it up again until she was on her deathbed and then we talked about it again. And then, you know, I always felt like I had like a spiritual guardian with me and it had it had protected me like at least ten times. Growing up from death, like near near near death experiences. Or something that like protected me in some magical way. And I didn't know what it was or who it was. And then I started realizing that it was actually my twin in the spirit world, keeping have it watching my back.

• 53:33Speaker 01

  And I think as I progressed through the project, I would learn more about myself. I would feel better about myself and I call it the healing journey because every photo I took really enabled me to connect with the twins. And reconnect the prenatal disconnection that happened to me in the womb and being born in the world and not feeling connected to anything. And then, which is why I was taking a lot of shrooms and weed and finding like. I was actually masking my trauma with this psychedelic mind state. Um, thinking I needed that to be an artist, but really there was just a delusion in many different ways. And so, you know, at at some point I didn't need any of this stuff and just.

• 54:17Speaker 01

  Was sober and just started just creating and feeling good about that and feeling good about being sober and not needing psychedelics to make me feel happy or good or. Creative. And for me, it was like a really healing journey. Cause every photo I took, it made me feel more whole because I was connecting with these people. And by the end of it, I had connected with so many twins, it kind of made up for all the disconnection I had with my twin. And by the time I had my book, it felt complete and the project felt complete in three ways. It took me a year to photograph Twin Flames from May thirty first to Ja- to Ju- July eighteenth, twenty eighteen, so twenty seventeen to twenty eighteen. And I always work in these yearly projects, cause it's just something to do.

• 55:01Speaker 01

  Um, but it's for a greater cause uh after the fact. So. Once I finished the project shooting, that was like the first stage of completion. And then the second stage was printing the whole project and and making a book and having the exhibition. And then at the exhibition, I was crying so much and I felt relief and I felt support and I felt loved and I felt complete. And then there the third stage of completion was. When the NFTs started selling and then being at Christie's and seeing the full complete collection sold. So not only pay off all the debt I've accrued making this stuff.

• 55:43Speaker 01

  That put me in the hole a hundred thousand dollars, but it actually created abundance and actually builds up my career. So it's like. It needed the digital twin in order to be a successful project, whereas with with the physicals. In twenty nineteen, no one really cared. It was kind of like the birthday project all over again, like. It wasn't connecting to people in the art world. Um, and I feel like it needed to be reinforced by the digital community and the NFT twin. This digital physical balance, which made it complete in a way where people could truly understand it. And have a whole audience like yourself and everyone who's listening to back to back it and fucking care.

• 56:28Speaker 01

  And and rally and to create a whole community and a whole force of where we're at now with NFTs and photography.

• 56:36David Hoffman?

  There's a a lot of themes that I think I um I want to connect here. Uh, we talked to Justin Blau about his Royal platform, uh, which is tokenized music. But the we talked about how uh the act of creating a token actually elevates the fans. In an equal and opposite creative process as the artist. Uh, and so where it used to be an artist on stage projecting out to fans and the fans were consuming. The creation of the token allow the fans to reverberate back towards the artist. And so like there's. It were in like the traditional music world. It's from from one to many, but now in the potential of this tokenized music world, it's a it's a it's an appropriate match.

• 57:20David Hoffman?

  It's got its other half where the artist and the token can reverberate between each other. And the token is emblematic of just like the the artist's fans. And so I'm seeing similar parallels to what you're saying, where we have this digital complement to the real world creation process that allows the true true expression to actually be manifested. Is that is that what you're saying?

• 57:48Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, he's doing a great job with with Royal and paying it forward back to the people. And I think that's what the Web three is all about, is how to include the community that's helping just to also be part of the success.

• 58:05David Hoffman?

  So if if there hadn't been NFTs and there had just been this physical side, what would that have looked like? You said a book, a book of, is it again 365 twins?

• 58:17Speaker 01

  No, 100 twins.

• 58:17David Hoffman?

  100 twins, 100 twins. OK, so you didn't put a yearly timer on this one, did you?

• 58:21Speaker 01

  No, but it took a year.

• 58:23David Hoffman?

  Sure, OK. And so like one twin per page, would that be the deal?

• 58:28Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, like the name of the twin and the location and the date and then the photo. And then you flip it's and then there's chapters. Every 10 twins was an interview and like statistics, science, paranormal, community, spirituality, all these different elements of astrology, all these different elements of what twins can be in these different genres and interviewing a select of each of each 10.

• 58:59David Hoffman?

  And there's only there's this is like a one of one, right? Like a one of one in real life copy of this book, is that right?

• 59:05Speaker 01

  No, there was 500 editions of the first and then 200 editions of the second.

• 59:10David Hoffman?

  So what what actually went off to Christie's? What got Ashen to action off at Christie's?

• 59:14Speaker 01

  The full physical one of one set.

• 59:16David Hoffman?

  OK, the the OK.

• 59:18Speaker 01

  And one NFT of the book cover image.

• 59:20David Hoffman?

  OK, and then so you didn't take these with your Polaroid. You took these with a different camera.

• 59:25Speaker 01

  I actually did shoot Polaroids and I did shoot with the TLR camera with the two lens that looked like this. And then a large format. So when I started, after the birthday project, I started shooting like four by five, large format, medium format, Polaroid. And with my new project, Smoke and Mirrors, I'm still shooting Polaroid, I'm still shooting four by five, and now I'm shooting with a 35mm instead of a square camera.

• 59:54David Hoffman?

  So there's not one single format, right?

• 59:57Speaker 01

  No, and the reason is because I learned the hard way a few times that sometimes your camera fucks up and the light gets exposed, or there's a hole in the bellows, or someone misdevelops the film and, you know, you can't let people ruin the shoot if you only have one camera. So I've learned to shoot with multiple cameras and, you know, there was multiple times in the project where, you know, the four by five didn't come out, or the medium format didn't come out. And luckily I had the other one to like make up for it.

• 1:00:29David Hoffman?

  So the 500 books that were sold, these individual photographs were like scanned and then printed onto the actual book pages?

• 1:00:38Speaker 01

  It's just like a normal book. It's, you get it printed at a print shop and they make it into a book.

• 1:00:43David Hoffman?

  Okay, so they're taking the negatives. I'm just trying to figure out-

• 1:00:47Speaker 01

  I scanned the negatives and I put them in a digital file and then I placed the digital file on InDesign. And you design the book and then you get the book printed through the InDesign file.

• 1:00:58David Hoffman?

  Okay, so you're not taking the negative and having the photo paper go through like the washing process?

• 1:01:03Speaker 01

  Oh no, that's crazy.

• 1:01:05David Hoffman?

  Okay. I'm a little bit disconnected from the photography world these days. Okay, so you take the negative and the negative is directly scanned?

• 1:01:14Speaker 01

  So I got the negative, scanned it, got the file, edit the file, make it color corrected and whatnot, and then- And then you put it in, you know, the in design and you you format the book.

• 1:01:26David Hoffman?

  And then the the one of the what was auctioned off at Christie's again, what was that formatted?

• 1:01:31Speaker 01

  That's the physical sixteen by twenty prints I made in the darkroom.

• 1:01:35David Hoffman?

  Okay.

• 1:01:36Speaker 01

  There were one on ones that I made in the color darkroom and framed and there's a hundred of them. And one NFT of the book cover image.

• 1:01:47David Hoffman?

  Okay, and so that that you actually did take the negative and go through the the

• 1:01:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:01:52David Hoffman?

  darkroom creative process and that's that's why it has that outsized price tag because well, A, the uniqueness, but also B, the human labor of the artist himself going into it. Uh, and okay, cool.

• 1:02:03Speaker 01

  Took me three months. I did like, I believe I did like three to five a day. So I had six hours at the spot. I did five a day. I think it was five a day or three to five a day. And it took me three months and.

• 1:02:22David Hoffman?

  How long would each print take to to produce?

• 1:02:26Speaker 01

  Like an hour to an hour and a half.

• 1:02:27David Hoffman?

  And like that, you're just trying to perfect the exposure, twinker with the composition, make sure the colors are right?

• 1:02:34Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:02:34David Hoffman?

  Yeah. And then, uh, if if I remember my my darkroom days, there's a lot of just like paper, like expensive photography paper thrown out in the trash because I didn't get it right. Was there a lot of that?

• 1:02:44Speaker 01

  Yeah. Oh, yeah. By the end of it, I was I had a I had a flow. And it was pretty much always the same exposure, F eleven at ten to thirty seconds with like a two filter or whatever.

• 1:02:56David Hoffman?

  Okay, okay, cool. So you right, you you got the hang of it. And then, okay, so then the NFTs, uh, a hundred, a hundred one of ones. Uh, and then you're just taking the the scanning, the negative, going into some digital format Adobe Illustrator, maybe again? And then?

• 1:03:13Speaker 01

  I already had the file, so all I had to do is upload them.

• 1:03:15David Hoffman?

  Okay. And then, uh, what platform did you use to upload them to?

• 1:03:19Speaker 01

  Open C.

• 1:03:20David Hoffman?

  Open C direct, not not Foundation or SuperRare, just straight to Open C?

• 1:03:23Speaker 01

  No, I'm straight up Open C eleven fifty nine fucking shared contract and breaking that whole um, taboo of, oh, Open C shared contract's not worth anything. Well, the the most expensive photography project is on that.

• 1:03:38Speaker 01

  So it's kind of funny because at the end of the day, the argument's like, does it really need to be an ERC seven twenty one? I say moving forward, yes, because I'm educated now and it's like painting with acrylic and moving into painting with. Oil, but being a noob and using what you have at the time and trusting your leaders to show you what's up. You know, I did it. And I think at the end of the day, people respect the artist and the reputation more so than a fucking smart contract.

• 1:04:08David Hoffman?

  Hey guys, I hope you're enjoying Justin's stories thus far. I think one of the most interesting things about this show with him is that we didn't talk about crypto or NFTs or Bitcoin really for the first entire half of the show. But the second half of the show, we will actually start to talk about these things. But before we get there, some of these fantastic, a moment to talk about some of these fantastic sponsors that make the show possible. Bankless is proud to be supported by Uniswap. Uniswap is a new paradigm in asset exchange infrastructure. Instead of a cumbersome order book system where trades are matched with other humans, Uniswap is an autonomous piece of software on Ethereum, which is what Ryan and I call a money robot. No human counterparties or centralized intermediaries,

• 1:04:51David Hoffman?

  just autonomous code on Ethereum. Input the token you want to sell and receive the token you want to buy. Something brand new in the Uniswap ecosystem is the Uniswap Grants Program is now accepting applications for grants. We have been saying this for a while and we'll say it again. DAOs have money and they are in need of labor. If you think that you have something to contribute to the Uniswap DAO, apply for a grant to Uniswap. Just look at the size of the Uniswap Treasury. It's almost $3 billion. This mountain of capital is looking for labor. Do you have something of value to contribute to the Uniswap DAO? No matter how big or small your idea is, you can apply for a UniGrant at unigrants.org and help steer Uniswap in the direction that you think it should go. That's exactly what

• 1:05:36David Hoffman?

  we did to get Uniswap to be a sponsor for Bankless and you can do the same for your project. Thank you, Uniswap, for sponsoring Bankless. The Aave Protocol is a decentralized liquidity protocol on Ethereum, which allows users to supply and borrow certain crypto assets. Aave version 2 has a ton of cool features that makes using the Aave Protocol even more powerful. With Aave, you can leverage the full power of DeFi. Money Legos, yield and composability all in one application. On Aave, there are a ton of assets that you can supply to the protocol in order to gain yield. And all of those same assets can also be borrowed from the protocol if you have supplied collateral.

• 1:06:15David Hoffman?

  Here you can see me borrowing 200 USDC against my portfolio of a number of different DeFi tokens in ETH. I'll choose a variable interest rate because it's a lower rate than the stable interest rate option. But I could choose the stable interest rate option if I wanted to lock in that interest rate in permanently. V2 also features the ability for users to swap collateral without having to withdraw their assets, trade them on Unswap and then deposit them back into Aave. With Aave, users can do this in one seamless transaction, saving you time and gas costs. Check out the power of Aave at Aave.com. That's A-A-V-E dot com. Did you hear about Ethereum at all before NFTs? Or was it through this project? When did you hear about Ethereum?

• 1:06:59Speaker 01

  I was interested in Bitcoin in 2012. And as I was shooting my birthday project, my roommate was ordering acid from Germany with Bitcoin. And he's like, oh, look at Bitcoin, look at this. And I'm like, bro, this is so above my fucking head. Like, I'm just, I gotta go find someone whose birthday it is today.

• 1:07:19Speaker 01

  So I was always enveloped in like the creative process where I couldn't even like entertain that. But I always knew about it and I was interested, but I didn't know how to do it. And then in 2017, I bought like 20K of Bitcoin and I got wrecked. And then-

• 1:07:34David Hoffman?

  Welcome to the club. Yep, class of 2017.

• 1:07:37Speaker 01

  And then it felt good to get wrecked because I got wrecked with Tesla too. And I was like, all right, well, I guess I suck at this shit. Got to stick to making art. And then, you know, I saw Ethereum at the time. I bought like a little bit and I'm like, what the fuck is this shit? I don't even know what Ethereum is like. What is this, you know, Bitcoin's the real store of value here, but Ethereum, like, I don't get it. Like, I actually was like more about Litecoin than I was about Ethereum because I was like, oh, Bitcoin's digital gold and Litecoin's digital silver, I get it. And Ethereum, I don't even know what the hell this shit is. Until-

• 1:08:11Speaker 01

  NFTs, I really truly understood why it's important and valuable and like, okay, now I see like Litecoin is a scam and actually Ethereum is is almighty and even better than Bitcoin because of how it can be used in so many different ways and in coding and and also like, because I made money with Ethereum, it kind of like won me over. I was getting paid in Ethereum.

• 1:08:39David Hoffman?

  Uh, how are you getting paid in Ethereum?

• 1:08:41Speaker 01

  Through selling NFTs.

• 1:08:43David Hoffman?

  Ah, okay, so when did NFTs first come on your radar?

• 1:08:47Speaker 01

  In January, when I was doing Clubhouse stuff and like everyone on Clubhouse who was an artist was either in an artist's room or a NFT room. And, you know, everyone was talking about NFTs, everyone was minting, everyone's talking about it, everyone's talking about digital art. And I was like, you know what, I'm gonna fucking mint my photography, I'm gonna mint Twin Flames and, you know, G-Money was the person who really inspired me to do the individuals.

• 1:09:14David Hoffman?

  Wait, so did you like discover Ethereum and really like Ethereum before you discovered NFTs or because you discovered NFTs?

• 1:09:22Speaker 01

  I discovered NFTs, um, just through Clubhouse.

• 1:09:26David Hoffman?

  Right, okay. So you was, when did you like, you know, uh, fall in love with Ethereum? Like, like you said that you did, what?

• 1:09:34Speaker 01

  When I start, when I sold my first NFT.

• 1:09:36David Hoffman?

  Okay, okay. So you were, you were into Bitcoin throughout, throughout the bear market, bought it at the top of, so 2017, didn't care about Ethereum during the bear market.

• 1:09:45Speaker 01

  I was buying a lot of Bitcoin during the pandemic.

• 1:09:48David Hoffman?

  Okay.

• 1:09:49Speaker 01

  And I was buying some Ethereum and I had a little bit of money in each.

• 1:09:52David Hoffman?

  But you didn't really know what Ethereum was all about at that time?

• 1:09:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:09:56David Hoffman?

  Okay, and so, so you were exposed to Ethereum but weren't like, uh, privy to Ethereum?

• 1:10:03Speaker 01

  I wasn't sold on it. I was just making sure I had each thing.

• 1:10:06David Hoffman?

  Okay, so you're, you're into crypto before you were into NFTs, but not like a deep crypto person?

• 1:10:11Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:10:12David Hoffman?

  Right, and then, and then you, uh, may have sold your first NFTs and your first, uh, NFTs were, were it's not Twin Flames, was something prior to that?

• 1:10:19Speaker 01

  No, it was Twin Flames.

• 1:10:20David Hoffman?

  It was Twin Flames.

• 1:10:21Speaker 01

  Twin Flames is the first thing.

• 1:10:23David Hoffman?

  Okay, and then, okay, and then, uh, it was Clubhouse that you got familiarized with NFTs?

• 1:10:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:10:28David Hoffman?

  Okay, and then how did you meet G-Money?

• 1:10:31Speaker 01

  I met him through Instagram, like I saw that someone Kenny Schecter posted about a CryptoPunk sale and I'm like, who the fuck spends a hundred fifty thousand dollars on this fucking thing like is a JPEG like, I'm gonna talk to this guy and see if he wants to buy my Twin Flames for a hundred thousand dollars because it's a hundred pieces for a thousand. He's like, why wouldn't they want that if they're buying this? So I got on the phone with him and he really like schooled me on NFTs and why they're important and why they're valuable and I was like, oh, okay. And he's like, I don't want to buy the physicals for a hundred K. I want, I want to buy the NFTs, like make NFTs and then hit me up. And then I did and I hit him up like a day later and he bought a few and then two days later, the whole project sold out.

• 1:11:14Speaker 01

  And then I was like, well, I love this royalty idea. Let's see how that works and, you know, started making secondary sales and then kept it going to the point where it's like almost two hundred ETH again.

• 1:11:27David Hoffman?

  So when you were first in some sort of clubhouse room and you heard about NFTs, did it instantly click with you? It was like, oh, I can mint, I can mint my Twin Flames photos as NFTs?

• 1:11:38Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:11:39David Hoffman?

  No?

• 1:11:40Speaker 01

  I was like, what are these people talking about? I don't even get it. And then I tried minting something on Raribles and then Raribles like robbed me and I was like, I had two hundred fifty bucks in my bank account at the time and I lost sixty bucks. And I'm like, this is fucking stupid. And I hated NFTs and then Alex Mesmash kept nudging me like, dude, try again, like try again, like you, you're one of the greatest artists I've met, like try it.

• 1:12:06David Hoffman?

  How did you help him?

• 1:12:08Speaker 01

  Do Clubhouse.

• 1:12:09David Hoffman?

  Clubhouse, okay. Interesting. And you were on Clubhouse because artists were on Clubhouse?

• 1:12:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:12:15David Hoffman?

  Yeah?

• 1:12:16Speaker 01

  I was finding community there and just talking to new people and we're all banding together and supporting each other.

• 1:12:22David Hoffman?

  And, and Alex Mesmash just like saw, saw you and somehow decided to look at your Twin Flames and was like, wow, this is super dope. This guy should NFT it?

• 1:12:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, he hit me up. He's like, dude, I love your art. I love your, I want you to be part of Try Showtime. I want to teach you how to mint NFTs. Like, he helped me get a MetaMask wallet. He helped me use OpenSea. You know, he had the OpenSea team verify me and the project and everything. It was like, pretty easy.

• 1:12:51David Hoffman?

  I think at this time, G-Money is a pretty big NFT individual these days. I think this, at this time, this was when he was really like, starting to come up in the, in the NFT world.

• 1:13:01Speaker 01

  Literally, like, I DM'd him after that post, and he had probably just made that Instagram like, 10 minutes before I DM'd him.

• 1:13:11David Hoffman?

  Oh, really?

• 1:13:12Speaker 01

  And then he had like, five people following and like, and I was his first follower, I think.

• 1:13:19David Hoffman?

  How'd you find him on Instagram then, if he only had?

• 1:13:21Speaker 01

  He was tagged.

• 1:13:22David Hoffman?

  Interesting.

• 1:13:23Speaker 01

  And I was like, is this a scam account? Or I'm just gonna hit him up and see what's going on. And then he responded, and then we were talking. I'm like, whoa, this is real. I think he's just making this as a branding project. So it's like, alright, perfect. Best way to connect with someone is when they're first starting out.

• 1:13:37David Hoffman?

  So this is probably less true, obviously, at the time that you did it, but I would imagine if some artist hit up G-Money now, and was like, yo, G-Money, check out my art. You want to buy it? He probably wouldn't even answer that DM. But do you know why, why he paid attention to you?

• 1:13:53Speaker 01

  I think because he acknowledged that I was reaching out to him early, and I think he respected that, and he respects my hustle. And also, you know, when you, when you're starting out, you're not fully confident in what you're doing until other people kind of like, validate you. And for me, like, all I was helping him do is validate him and who he was as a collector, and who, what he means to me as an artist. And I feel like that mutual respect of artist to collector, collector to artist, really...

• 1:14:26Speaker 01

  Pushed each other forward, you know, with all the projects we've done and also like inviting him to conversations with the art world people. Cause what I was pretty much known for in Clubhouse was holding space for art world people to talk to crypto people and like mediate it. And like try to find a middle ground because a lot of art world people were skeptics and a lot of crypto people were trying to show these people what the fuck's going on.

• 1:14:49David Hoffman?

  Right. So Masvidge was like nudging you into NFTs and then you talked to G money and said, hey, will you want to buy all of my physicals? And he was like, no, no, no, I want NFTs. And that was when you become warm, warm to NFTs?

• 1:15:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:15:05David Hoffman?

  Yeah. And you're like, okay, I will. And then-

• 1:15:07Speaker 01

  Also, the user experience with OpenSea really like won me back. Rarables, like, sorry, guys, that shit really like put a bad taste in my mouth and it wasn't good. It wasn't a good experience. It made me not want to do it. And then luckily I had Alex Mesmash.

• 1:15:25Speaker 01

  Like literally like hitting me up all the time and I was kind of like sidelining him until I was like, you know what? I'm gonna give this kid a time of day. We got on Zoom. He fucking, I'm glad I did that and I'm glad he was persistent. Cause I don't think he needs to be doing that anymore. He's running a really successful business. And I think that's the beauty about being early with everyone around you is being early too as builders. They have time for you. You know, I imagine hitting him up now, he'd be like, who the fuck are you? Or, you know, G money, the same, like, who the fuck are you, bro? Like, I'm busy. I'm working with Adidas and I'm lucky I reached out. And like, that's my skill is knowing how to talk to people. And, you know, the birthday project set me up to know how to talk to people and connect with people.

• 1:16:07Speaker 01

  Even if, you know, they don't have any people that look up to them yet.

• 1:16:12David Hoffman?

  Huge.

• 1:16:12Speaker 01

  I have that foresight and connecting.

• 1:16:14David Hoffman?

  Right. Right. How did you determine the prices of your individuals? A lot of, a lot of, the meme about artists is they don't know how to price their work. How did you come up with a thousand dollars per piece?

• 1:16:26Speaker 01

  Simple.

• 1:16:26David Hoffman?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:27Speaker 01

  Simple. It's like, what is my fair market value now? What am I selling pictures at galleries now? It was a thousand dollars a one-on-one. I just listed it a thousand bucks, point five five ETH.

• 1:16:39David Hoffman?

  So you were already selling physical art in art galleries for a thousand dollars a print?

• 1:16:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, at sixteen by twenty, yeah.

• 1:16:47David Hoffman?

  The catch twenty-two I've heard about artists is that like, a lot of like, you know, galleries or this, yeah. They won't let artists in because they haven't proved themselves. But then there's that question, well, you're not letting, I can't prove myself because you're not letting me in. So like, where, where did you get like the genesis to actually like, say that, oh, I actually get to sell my stuff for a thousand dollars?

• 1:17:07Speaker 01

  So I'm, you know, I like to push the boundaries and also work with the team around me. And there are galleries that give artists a shot if they never had a shot before, you know, the Living Gallery or the storefront project, Super Chief, all these different places, Petite Gallery, you know, and also renting it yourself and making a name for yourself, I think, is the ultimate move. You know, I built a name with, for myself with Save Art Space and that also built me a huge credibility in the art world. And, you know, now I have a lot of credibility in the art world because it's hard not to respect million dollar sales. But prior to that, no one give a fuck about me or my work or my emails,

• 1:17:51Speaker 01

  until the numbers really justified why they should care, which is fucking stupid. It should be about the integrity of the work or the work ethic or the people, the connections, but, you know, once, once they see numbers, they really start to change their minds. And for me, it was really about building my brand, building my community outside of, you know, the walls that kept me out and actually just, you know what, I'll, I'll rent my own spot, have my own gallery and bring people in. And that's how I've always been and, you know, that's how it is. And that's what Web Three is.

• 1:18:25David Hoffman?

  Was it a twin flame picture that, that was the first thing that you sold for a thousand dollars? Or was it some other photographs from your other efforts or endeavors?

• 1:18:35Speaker 01

  My first solo show was, um, I've actually sold other stuff.

• 1:18:38David Hoffman?

  Right.

• 1:18:39Speaker 01

  I've been selling art for a while, like I would say since twenty twelve. Drawings, ink drawings, paintings.

• 1:18:47David Hoffman?

  Okay.

• 1:18:48Speaker 01

  Mixed media pieces.

• 1:18:49David Hoffman?

  So outside of the projects?

• 1:18:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. I had my first solo show in twenty nineteen. Called The Cactus Diaries and those are cyanotypes 101s. And there was 12 of them and I sold that that whole show. And I made like $20,000 and you know, I only got kept half because the gallery takes half, but it was. It was really rewarding. My first solo show, everything sold out, all the little pins, books, candles to the big ass prints, everything like, there's literally nothing left.

• 1:19:19David Hoffman?

  That's cool. That's cool. Um, so when you saw the potential of minting your work as NFTs. You didn't raise your price, you kept the prices the same. So was the advantage of NFTs as as in the just another. Form of the same art to distribute, or was the advantage of the NFTs that there were potential buyers from all over the world? Well, what what did you see in the potential of NFTs for, you know, expressing twin flames?

• 1:19:48Speaker 01

  So for me, it was it was coming from a place of like. If people are buying digital assets with ownership on the blockchain. I was working with this project for years, putting it on Instagram, putting it on my website, putting in a book, putting in exhibitions. The only natural state in my mind was, okay, I'm gonna mint it on the blockchain. And I minted it in chronological order. And I listed at my fair market price and promoted it on Twitter and Discord and Clubhouse and. You know, two to three days later, it's completely sold out and people were like, holy shit, like photography.

• 1:20:27Speaker 01

  People were like scared to admit photography because everyone thought NFTs were about digital art or moving images. But for me, it was always like, this is the art I make. I'm not changing it for anybody. And I think that's the attitude to have is, you know, you don't change your art for the audience, you you stick by it and. You know, show people why it is important and it doesn't need to move because it acts on its own.

• 1:20:55David Hoffman?

  So, um, this is this is really, really cool.

• 1:21:00David Hoffman?

  There was no like, you know, debut or production. There was just your metamask connected to your OpenSea with your NFTs that you had for sale. And just through word of mouth of people that knew you, that was enough. That was enough to sell a hundred pieces at a thousand dollars each?

• 1:21:16Speaker 01

  Well, I'll say this. I started, before I minted everything, I was connecting with collectors in the space. I was talking to a lot of people and like preparing. Like G-Money or William Savas or Mazmash or, you know, people. And I had like set buyers. And ironically enough, like I hadn't had any Twitter presence at all. So I was like starting my Twitter from zero. And my, and I deleted everything. I had like 200 followers at the time. And I always had problems with Twitter. I was never able to figure out how to use it. Like, like on Instagram, I'm good at it, whatever that means.

• 1:22:00Speaker 01

  But like Twitter was always like, why doesn't anyone follow me or like my shit? Like, I don't get this. And then when NFTs came around, I literally found my community and support. Where I literally like left Instagram to fucking focus on Twitter. And I love it so much more because I feel like Twitter is like the original blockchain. Looks like people's posts are over each other. You know, it's time stamped. Authentified.

• 1:22:26David Hoffman?

  A chain of tweets. Yeah, right.

• 1:22:28Speaker 01

  And so my plan was to, my first tweet was like all the press I've ever got for Twin Flames. And like as the ground foundation to show people like this is a serious project. And then what my plan was gonna be, every day I was gonna post like Twin One, Twin Two. Like this one's for sale or this one. But ironically, the funniest thing happened. You know, I made my first sale and then I posted Twin Flames sold. And then, you know, other people started buying it. Flamingo Dow was talking about buying it. And like a few of those members just bought up like a third of the project. And then Punks bought up another third.

• 1:23:08Speaker 01

  And then another third was bought literally by peers and people like myself who are photographers who just wanted to buy it. And it was, it went quick and.

• 1:23:19Speaker 01

  And I didn't have to post, oh, this one's for sale. I literally just posted, sold, sold, sold, sold to this person, to this person. Building community with the collector and then people retweeting it and that's when I built the following and then, you know, I'm like almost 50,000 followers later, you know, it took me fucking seven years to get 12,000 followers on Instagram. And in like four months, five months, I have like 50,000 followers on Twitter and it's like, what? And I've never been good at Twitter. So it was always like, what is going on? I finally found my way here.

• 1:23:53David Hoffman?

  Did, uh, did G-Money get, was able to get his hands on one of the NFTs?

• 1:23:58Speaker 01

  He got five of them.

• 1:23:59David Hoffman?

  Okay, cool.

• 1:24:00Speaker 01

  He bought the book cover.

• 1:24:01David Hoffman?

  Oh, nice.

• 1:24:02Speaker 01

  And then someone else, my friend Pasha bought his book, the book cover from him for five ETH. And then I ended up needing the book cover back for the Christie's auction. So I ended up buying that back for like six ETH and an X copy.

• 1:24:19David Hoffman?

  Wow.

• 1:24:19Speaker 01

  Actually, no, sorry. I traded him a Twin Flames I bought for five ETH and an X copy for the book cover back. And I actually bought the piece of my girlfriend Nicole, who I met in Twin Flames, the first time I shot her. I bought that back from William Savas, my first collector that I met in that grouping for six ETH. And like, I'm glad because like, I never want to sell this. It's my soulmate.

• 1:24:45David Hoffman?

  Uh, was the hundred thousand dollars that you made from selling Twin Flames, was that like, just a, was that, how massive was that as a windfall for you at the time?

• 1:24:53Speaker 01

  I was like, I paid off all my debt and I was back at zero.

• 1:24:57David Hoffman?

  How, how much debt did you have?

• 1:24:59Speaker 01

  Hundred thousand dollars.

• 1:25:01David Hoffman?

  Oh my God. And how did you rack up a hundred thousand dollars of debt?

• 1:25:07Speaker 01

  I mean, not working, traveling, all my food, putting on my credit card, all my plane tickets, all my rental cars, my lodging, my film, my scans, my paper, my, uh, development, uh, new cameras, because my camera broke. You know, all these little expenses add up and, you know, exhibition costs, book, book costs, all these things, like, it costs money.

• 1:25:39David Hoffman?

  Before NFTs?

• 1:25:41Speaker 01

  Framing, like every, the prints.

• 1:25:43David Hoffman?

  Right. Before NFTs, what was your plan for paying that off?

• 1:25:46Speaker 01

  I was gonna sell the project for a hundred thousand dollars to an institution or a wealthy tech fund.

• 1:25:51David Hoffman?

  Okay, so you just took the risk of I'm gonna, I'm gonna make this art and then I'm gonna sell this art and I'm just gonna be cool on the other side.

• 1:26:02Speaker 01

  Well, I was like, I'm gonna make this, God is guiding me to make this art. I'm driven by spirituality and divine intuition and so I trusted it. I took my leap of faith. I went through my doubt and I stayed strong, like even during the pandemic. You know, from 2019, after I didn't sell out the project to the World Trade Center, whoever else I was selling, trying to sell to, I was like, oh no, like, you know, I'm getting mail from like American Express trying to sue me because I'm not paying this debt. And then the pandemic hit and like, I'm like emailing every fucking museum to try and collect it and

• 1:26:40Speaker 01

  trying to find a home for it because it's a physical artifact and it needed to be completed. And then by the time of 2021, with the NFTs, like I really found a safe haven and, and a place to sell it and, and you know, it became, it became a lifesaver in a way.

• 1:27:00David Hoffman?

  That is an absolutely amazing story. Uh, what's next? Is that, is that story over? Is that, is that wrapped?

• 1:27:09Speaker 01

  Fuck no.

• 1:27:10David Hoffman?

  What's left in the twin flame story?

• 1:27:11Speaker 01

  Oh, the twin flame story is complete.

• 1:27:14David Hoffman?

  Okay, that's, that story is complete.

• 1:27:15Speaker 01

  Because of Christie's was the last thing on the list, like having the physicals, you know, sitting in storage for two years and then it going to Christie's and finally landing itself into a museum is pretty much like, it's completely out of my hands.

• 1:27:33David Hoffman?

  Right.

• 1:27:34Speaker 01

  The prints are out of my hands. The NFTs are out of my hands. It's like complete.

• 1:27:38David Hoffman?

  It's off, it's into the ether.

• 1:27:40Speaker 01

  And now I could focus on smoke and mirrors, my new project.

• 1:27:43David Hoffman?

  Right, we'll, we'll, we'll get there, we'll get there in a, in a hot second. How, how much did your, how much did the, uh, the, the, um, the art piece at Christie's sell for?

• 1:27:52Speaker 01

  Um, the hammer price was 1.1 million dollars.

• 1:27:55David Hoffman?

  And then how much, oh, the hammer price is that the price that it sells for?

• 1:28:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:28:01David Hoffman?

  Do you know who bought it?

• 1:28:02Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:28:03David Hoffman?

  Yeah.

• 1:28:04Speaker 01

  He's my friend, uh, CL7, who is a French art collector, and he's putting it in his French, uh, chateau in 2023. And in interim, we're putting it in museums in New York and hopefully London and Germany before it lands in France.

• 1:28:19David Hoffman?

  Cool. And do you get all that one, or did you get all that 1.1 million?

• 1:28:23Speaker 01

  No, I got 900,000, half of which I donated to save art space and 200,000 I paid to all the twins.

• 1:28:32David Hoffman?

  Wow. What made you decide to pay 200,000 to all the twins?

• 1:28:36Speaker 01

  It just felt right.

• 1:28:38David Hoffman?

  So they each got $2,000?

• 1:28:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:28:40David Hoffman?

  Cool. Well, no, they each got $1,000.

• 1:28:45Speaker 01

  And it's for like the ethos of the web three spirit of royalties. And if I'm collecting royalties, I wanted to give 10% of what I made to these people because that's what I believe in. And I want to share that abundance with everybody because that's what art is for. And if I could, you know, help someone in their time of need and they might not even know what's going on. And I contact them saying, hey, I have money to give you for the project you're in four years ago. They're like, oh, my God, you just helped me pay my rent. Or I needed money to pay for the dentist. Like you're, this is amazing.

• 1:29:15David Hoffman?

  Wow. Over the counter royalties. That's really, really cool.

• 1:29:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, I had a PayPal and like Venmo and like, it's a lot of work. So the next, the next email is gonna be, give me your ETH address.

• 1:29:28David Hoffman?

  Oh, you'll love to hear it. Uh, okay. So well, so now you have the foundation, the financial foundation to move forward and, uh, move into your next project. So let's go into smoke and mirrors. What's smoke and mirrors?

• 1:29:39Speaker 01

  Oh, smoke and mirrors. So how twin flames was the healing project? The healing journey, I called smoke and mirrors, the hero's journey. Stepping into your power after healing from twin flames. And literally like, I started this project.

• 1:29:58Speaker 01

  August 4th, 2018, and I just finished it with with the Winklevoss Twins and the Nifty Gateway Twins, the Griffin Cock and Duncan Cockfoster on October 4th, 2021, at my Christie's auction in front of Twin Flames. So it's kind of like, I always wanted to photograph the Winklevoss for Twin Flames, but I never got to connect with them. I sent them a book on Christmas in 2019, and I finally was able to connect with them this year through my success in NFTs and crypto, and obviously them being twins and me being friends with Griff Griffin Duncan, and connecting with them and, you know, showing them like what I'm capable of as an artist.

• 1:30:39Speaker 01

  And also this huge exhibition at Christie's, like a high caliber art space for a magnificent twin project, like what twin in the world wouldn't want to be part of that?

• 1:30:51David Hoffman?

  Right, right.

• 1:30:52Speaker 01

  So it was my take in seeing them, you know, wanting to have them in Twin Flames, but actually finishing Smoke and Mirrors, because there's 78 people in Smoke and Mirrors, because it's a tarot deck, and they're the 10 of cups. And if you look at the card, it's like 10 trophies stacked up, and two twin guardians standing like guard for the for the trophy. And it was like, this is the Winklevoss Twins, I gotta like, and Cockfosters, I gotta shoot them. I gotta finish Smoke and Mirrors with two sets of twins in front of the Twin Flames wall. And that is like the maestro like

• 1:31:31David Hoffman?

  Uh huh.

• 1:31:32Speaker 01

  move to complete a double twin completion for both Twin Flames and Smoke and Mirrors. The photographic process and like the complete exhibition process of

• 1:31:43David Hoffman?

  Right.

• 1:31:43Speaker 01

  the both projects at once. And it was like the ultimate synchronicity of completion.

• 1:31:49David Hoffman?

  How how much of a happy accident was that? And how much was that intentional?

• 1:31:54Speaker 01

  I mean, you know what? I didn't know I was gonna shoot them until like a day before.

• 1:31:59David Hoffman?

  Wow.

• 1:32:00Speaker 01

  So it was really like on the wire and a lot of trust and faith and just knowing in my heart that this is what it must be because this is the dream, this is the artist's vision. And it's so fucking powerful that, you know, people like them took time out of their day to come see me and create with me and actually like shatter any expectations of who they think I was and actually built a bond through the twinhood and brotherhood of through art and and and connecting through that siblingness.

• 1:32:35David Hoffman?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:32:36Speaker 01

  And I think that was the ultimate like gain from that meeting was building a true friendship through the art and honoring them because I look up to them because they're the twins, the best twins in the world, right? Like the most notable twins in the world and like having them take notice of Twin Flames is kinda like a huge respect and acknowledgement that I've always wanted from them and seeing that come through through my success and seeing them respect my success. You know, it kinda felt really fucking gratifying and and now having a friendship with them where I could literally text them if I wanted to.

• 1:33:14David Hoffman?

  Right, right.

• 1:33:16Speaker 01

  And that's cool to have because it took it was so hard to get in touch with them in the first place.

• 1:33:19David Hoffman?

  Right.

• 1:33:20Speaker 01

  And now it's so easy.

• 1:33:22David Hoffman?

  Well, Justin, you're the who you are as a character is deserve of all deserve it, oh my gosh, deserved of all the success that you had. So congratulations for for getting to that point and finding a vehicle for to have all of your art as as well respected as it is.

• 1:33:38Speaker 01

  Thank you, man. And I think at the end of the day, like my ultimate goal as a photographer is to meet world leaders and somehow create a peace among men through the portraits. And if I could be that character in the world where they're literally like stops wars through the authentic relations of of art and connection and showing humility through the portrait and the people, I think that's the ultimate goal of an artist.

• 1:34:05David Hoffman?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:34:06Speaker 01

  You know, artists kinda like hippies, like they want world peace, they want, you know, everyone to get together and and be friends, but like, you know, like, the only way to do that is to create.

• 1:34:20Speaker 01

  Create those experiences for everyone.

• 1:34:22David Hoffman?

  How have NFTs, um,

• 1:34:26David Hoffman?

  to you as an artist, and you are a very surreal thinker. You know, you're into the divine, you're into mythology, you're into the spirit world. Coming from that angle, what are NFTs?

• 1:34:41Speaker 01

  NFTs.

• 1:34:48Speaker 01

  NFTs to me are the digital twin of the physical reality.

• 1:34:53David Hoffman?

  The digital twin of the physical reality. Do they communicate the same thing, but in a different format?

• 1:35:01Speaker 01

  I think they're interwoven by context of the materiality of the subject. You know, like you look at Twin Flames, the picture and the physical print. You look at Twin Flames, the NFT, there is no difference because the context of the image is the same, except the materiality of the physical object and the digitality of the digital object in the metaverse space. And I think everything, you know, everything in the world is literally an NFT. It's just a digital receipt or a twin. I like to call these things the twin. Because it literally is, it's like what can exist in this world that can exist in the metaverse. And it reflects and is woven together through through our idea of the object.

• 1:35:47David Hoffman?

  Do you think, um, a lot of people, and I'm definitely guilty of this, are really hype up NFTs as this brand new paradigm shift in what it means to express culture. But sometimes I'm kind of worried that that's just a bunch of crypto people shilling their crypto things. But for you as an artist, what do you think NFTs are going to do for the world of cultural, human expression?

• 1:36:11Speaker 01

  I just think they make things easier to access.

• 1:36:15Speaker 01

  And also, you know, they're assets that are mobile, that are, you know, transportable. You don't have to take care of them in the physical space. You know, because we conceive these things, we gave these things value through our consciousness of our beliefs of why we deem something like Bitcoin, for example, why is that worth $60,000? Because it's an idea. Why is money worth anything if it's a piece of paper? It's literally an idea we share and the mythology around money and the idea of currency or assets that actually make us think these things are valuable. And I think as long as that's going on, these things will stay relevant and even grow.

• 1:36:58Speaker 01

  Like, why is a stock valuable if they're just numbers on a page? It's our idea of these things that make it go up or down. So, you know, some people pump and dump like Wolf Game and all those Ponzi's and whatever. But like, for a true artist, it's a means of connecting with a collector or sustaining their life through the work. And the crypto collectors are the people who don't want physical things much and they like carrying, you know, their art collection on their phone. Just like they have their whole crypto portfolio on their phone or Ledger. So it's like, for me, it's just a minimalist view in the future and how we, um, maintain our assets.

• 1:37:42David Hoffman?

  So, so much of your story, you can't really appreciate, if you, if you go onto OpenSea and just type in twin, twin flames, you'll see a very well-composed photograph of two twins. But the photograph by, again, by itself doesn't justify the, like, the 17 ETH price tag that, that you might see, might you see on one of them.

• 1:38:02Speaker 01

  No, 170.

• 1:38:04David Hoffman?

  Oh, excuse me, 170 ETH price tag for a single twin flame photograph. Without knowing the story that you're telling me here today, like, that, that price tag will seem ridiculous. And so much of your story is about drawing deep connections from very Very far reaches, different phases of your life where connecting the photograph of your mom, which was your first picture ever that you ever took, connecting that to your twin, connecting that to, you know, going through the trials of being a social human through photography and then connecting that all the way to the Winklevoss. Is that, obviously that's Justin's story, but do you think

• 1:38:47David Hoffman?

  NFTs as like these emotional vehicles of meaning also play a role in that? Or again, am I just trying to ascribe too much meaning to NFTs?

• 1:38:57Speaker 01

  No, I mean, like I said, this project couldn't exist without the digital twin. And I think plain and simple, because it had the digital twin, it gave it a whole new life in a way where people can understand it and access it and support it like never before through crypto. And I think it's important, you know, for all crypto people and collectors to actually take serious in the art they're collecting because they're changing lives and they're supporting artists who don't make more than $20,000 a year when people, you know, in crypto are spending $20,000 on a fucking gas fee.

• 1:39:42Speaker 01

  You know, not like, not really, but like, you know what I'm saying?

• 1:39:45David Hoffman?

  Sometimes.

• 1:39:47Speaker 01

  So it really puts into context, like artists don't need a lot to survive, but you know, when they have that support and they have abundance and are making $80,000 off their photos or paintings or digital art, it really, it makes the world a better place because the artists are less stressed and they can actually create more out of not being worried about paying rent and working their day job when they could actually, that's why we're seeing a lot of people quit their jobs because their true job is being an artist.

• 1:40:18Speaker 01

  And there's so much wealth in crypto that's literally generated out of nothing that can, people are okay with spending $20,000 on an artist's life.

• 1:40:30David Hoffman?

  Justin, what do you want your legacy to be?

• 1:40:35Speaker 01

  Shit. Man, I just wanna keep making art and let the legacy tell its own story.

• 1:40:41David Hoffman?

  You don't want to direct it, you want it to unfold?

• 1:40:44Speaker 01

  It's, that's how it's always been. It's literally been an unfolding. A constant unfolding, unveiling, like, you know, it's somewhere between The Alchemist's story and, you know, Siddhartha, I would say.

• 1:41:00David Hoffman?

  So with this, uh, Smoke and Mirrors project coming to an end, where can people go look at it? What's the, uh, is there like an announcement roadmap? Where should people tune in?

• 1:41:09Speaker 01

  If you're in my Discord, you'll get all the alpha. But mostly, like, I'm in my editing phase. If you go to my website, you'll see the Smoke and Mirrors, and there's like eighteen photos I need to add, that I need to edit. So, you know, Twin Flames took a lot of my year, and luckily I was able to finish shooting this year after having a year break from the pandemic. And, um, you know, allowing, now this year really allowing me to get back in the flow and having a new studio with Gabba Gallery to make silk screens. Cause Smoke and Mirrors is a two-part project, where I have seventy-eight silk screens, one of five different variants of how I'm like, printing them.

• 1:41:53Speaker 01

  They're all, there's five of the same image, but they're all different compositions of the paints and structure of each of those. So they're all one-on-ones, basically. And then the one-of-one, black and white, similar to Twin Flames, of the seventy-eight. So, they exist side by side. And these, in fact, come with the physical. So with Twin Flames, you only got the NFT digital, because the physical was going to the museum. And now, with Smoke and Mirrors, you get the physical print with the NFT. Just for me as an artist to experiment, cause at this time in NFTs, it's so much freedom and experimentation.

• 1:42:34Speaker 01

  I wanna always experiment and change it up and see what, what we can, you know, do and introduce people to the physical stuff. Cause at the end of the day, we don't wanna go fully immersed into the metaverse and lose our humanity. We wanna create some sort of balance that reflects and reacts to digital, physical worlds and never really going too far into the metaverse where we're gone or too far into nature where we stop caring about tech. There's a balance that I'm trying to, at least in my legacy. I want to fulfill the, the, the balance of both. These two worlds, so we don't lose our humanity.

• 1:43:13David Hoffman?

  Mm hmm. That's just another, that's beautiful. Uh, I'd ask you what project you're going to work on next, but.

• 1:43:19Speaker 01

  Oh, I'm already working on it.

• 1:43:21David Hoffman?

  Oh, you already have the idea. I was, I was.

• 1:43:23Speaker 01

  I got a fucking ten year plan, bro.

• 1:43:25David Hoffman?

  Yeah, okay. Well, can you tease us on the details of the next project or is that under wraps?

• 1:43:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's, it's gonna be a super eight project, um, cinema.

• 1:43:33David Hoffman?

  Ah, film?

• 1:43:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, so if you look at my art. In, in a trajectory of where I started. The birthday project was Polaroids. Cognition was paintings. Twin Flames was classic color portraits. Smoke and mirrors, black and white and silk screens. My new project. Is gonna be super eight, so I'm moving into cinema. And then after that, I'm gonna be making short films and hopefully feature films and creating a legacy in filmmaking. As a director. Similar to Kubrick and Tarantino and, and Lynch and like creating surrealist metaphors for the psyche. That actually have a original, authentic story that. You know. Withstand.

• 1:44:21Speaker 01

  You know, our social consciousness in, in, in, in amiable culture.

• 1:44:25David Hoffman?

  Now, are.

• 1:44:26Speaker 01

  You know, think of the Shining Twins. You see, you, you see that burn into your imagination. So it's like, I want to create. Things like. The Matrix, Avatar. You know, pulp fiction. Shot the Shining, like very groundbreaking, original things.

• 1:44:42David Hoffman?

  How, how long do you imagine these, uh, films are? Are they like gif lengths where they're their five to 10 seconds? Are they minutes or are they full length?

• 1:44:50Speaker 01

  These are like two hour movies.

• 1:44:51David Hoffman?

  Two hour, you, no, you're going for the full movie.

• 1:44:54Speaker 01

  I'm going, I'm making seven great films before I die, hopefully.

• 1:44:57David Hoffman?

  Oh, my God, you're gonna make movies. You're, are you like, how far into this are you gonna go? You're gonna actually like recruit actors and generate scripts?

• 1:45:05Speaker 01

  It's going that direction.

• 1:45:06David Hoffman?

  Oh, my gosh, that is absolutely insane, dude.

• 1:45:09Speaker 01

  I'm not gonna write scripts. I'm gonna hire screenplays writers to, to do it and I'm just gonna direct, cuz. You know, I have, I, I'm actually writing a TV show that I've been writing for years. So, you know, you know, this is just where I'm at now. This could change.

• 1:45:26David Hoffman?

  Well, I think something that I've definitely picked up on is, especially in the 2020s, those that are good at many, many things are outpacing those that are only very, very good in one specific thing. And Justin, you seem like a guy who's into all forms of artistic expression, not just one form, and definitely storytelling as well. So I'm really excited to see what you cook up with for the rest of your life, sir.

• 1:45:52Speaker 01

  Me too.

• 1:45:55David Hoffman?

  Awesome.

• 1:45:55Speaker 01

  It's the improv. Like, my whole life's improv.

• 1:45:57David Hoffman?

  Improv, improv. That's great. I love that. I love that. Justin.

• 1:46:00Speaker 01

  And I think, I think to be a good artist, you gotta be good at improvisation.

• 1:46:05David Hoffman?

  100%.

• 1:46:06Speaker 01

  And adapt in every moment.

• 1:46:08David Hoffman?

  100%. Justin, what, what do you want listeners to know? What do you want them to do? How can they help you?

• 1:46:16Speaker 01

  I think if everyone recognizes that they too have an artistic ability and they execute it in their life, or do what they love, the world will be filled with more love.

• 1:46:30David Hoffman?

  Justin, thank you for coming on Layer Zero.

• 1:46:33Speaker 01

  Hell yeah, dude.

• 1:46:34David Hoffman?

  Cheers. Hey, we hope you enjoyed the video. If you did, head over to Bankless HQ right now to develop your crypto investing skills and learn how to free yourself from banks and gain your financial independence. We recommend joining our daily newsletter, podcast, and community as a Bankless premium subscriber to get the most out of your Bankless experience. You'll get access to our market analysis, our alpha leaks, and exclusive content, and even the Bankless token for airdrops, raffles, and unlocks. If you're interested in crypto, the Bankless community is where you want to be. Click the link in the description to become a Bankless premium subscriber today. Also, don't forget to subscribe to the channel for in-depth interviews with industry leaders, Ask Me Anythings, and weekly rollups where

• 1:47:19David Hoffman?

  we summarize the week in crypto and other fantastic content. Thanks, everyone, for watching and being on the journey as we build out the Bankless nation.