The SAD Episode

Seasonal affective disorder, or SAD, is much more than the winter blues. It's a serious subset of depression. Learn all about it and what to do if you suffer from it today. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.

• 0:04Josh Clark?

  Buy smart, drive for less and trade for more. That's Toyota affordability and it starts with a great deal on an off-road ready Tacoma or half ton Tundra, two of Toyota's longest lasting trucks, combining power for work, tech for adventures and style in between. And they're built on a reputation for quality and reliability, which is why Toyota trucks are known for holding their value, which could mean big savings when it's time for your next Toyota. So get a great deal today and a great value tomorrow. Shop toyota.com for more. Toyota, let's go places.

• 0:35Speaker 02

  With no fees or minimums on checking accounts, it's no wonder the Capital One Bank guy is so passionate about banking with Capital One. If he were here, he wouldn't just tell you about no fees or minimums. He'd also talk about how Capital One cafes are open seven days a week to assist with your banking needs. Yep, even on weekends. It's pretty much all he talks about, in a good way. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. See capitalone.com slash bank guy. Capital One, N A, Member FDIC.

• 1:02Speaker 03

  If you're a custodial supervisor at a local high school, you know that cleanliness is key and that the best place to get cleaning supplies is from Grainger. Grainger helps you stay fully stocked on the products you trust, from paper towels and disinfectants to floor scrubbers. Plus you can rely on Grainger for easy reordering, so you never run out of what you need. Call 1-800-GRAINGER, click Grainger.com or just stop by. Grainger, for the ones who get it done.

• 1:33Speaker 00

  Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeart Radio.

• 1:43Josh Clark?

  Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh and there's Chuck and Jerry's here too. And it's a Stuff You Should Know hoedown to start the new year. Chuck's still wearing his novelty 2026 glasses that he got sponsored by Nivea that I believe what you're saying was Ryan Seacrest himself handed them to you while you were at Times Square, right?

• 2:06Speaker 02

  No, not handed. He put them on my face with his hands.

• 2:09Josh Clark?

  Whoa, is it because you guys are coworkers?

• 2:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, he's with iHeart, isn't he?

• 2:16Josh Clark?

  Yeah, but I think like half of the US is a coworker of his, he's got so many jobs.

• 2:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, you're probably right. Well, if you haven't guessed, listening audience, this is our first recording of the new year.

• 2:28Josh Clark?

  Yes.

• 2:28Speaker 02

  I'm probably gonna be a little rusty.

• 2:33Speaker 02

  And can I, can I just give a quick shout out to a couple of things?

• 2:38Josh Clark?

  Yeah, please do.

• 2:40Speaker 02

  Great. Well, Josh knows all this stuff because we communicate outside of work, believe it or not, because we're friends. But I went to, you know, New York City. Emily and I do our little Broadway weekend in New York over Christmas every year. And this year, I just want to say thanks to a couple of people, most notably Natasha Hodgson of Operation Mince Meat fame.

• 3:01Josh Clark?

  Mm hmm.

• 3:03Speaker 02

  Because she is in the show and put together the show and Stuff You Should Know, and she's been in magazines, as people alerted us, as giving Stuff You Should Know credit as our episode inspiring that show.

• 3:16Josh Clark?

  Mm hmm.

• 3:17Speaker 02

  And was kind enough to give us a couple of tickets to go see it. And it was fantastic. I highly recommend it.

• 3:22Josh Clark?

  I know. I was loathe to miss it. That sucked.

• 3:25Speaker 02

  I wish you could have been there, but it's, you know, it's still playing, so maybe you can check it out.

• 3:29Josh Clark?

  Yeah, I was especially upset when you said that she gave you, she came out into the audience in the middle of the show and gave you like a bouquet of roses.

• 3:39Speaker 02

  No, no, no.

• 3:39Josh Clark?

  And the audience lifted you up on their shoulders.

• 3:42Speaker 02

  No, that was, that was, that didn't happen. Also, went to Barcentrally, as I like to do before Broadway.

• 3:49Josh Clark?

  What is it?

• 3:50Speaker 02

  Barcentrally is where I go before Broadway shows.

• 3:53Josh Clark?

  Well, what is it?

• 3:54Speaker 02

  It's a bar, but it's, it's sort of a, I mean, you can just make reservations a week out. I think I've mentioned this before. It's, it's sort of a secret place in that it doesn't have a sign or it's not widely.

• 4:05Josh Clark?

  Those are cool.

• 4:06Speaker 02

  Publicized, but you know, seven days out from when you want to go, you can call them up. They specialize in getting people in and out of there, pre and post Broadway.

• 4:17Speaker 02

  And, you know, sometimes you can see Broadway performers there on the down low.

• 4:21Josh Clark?

  Nice. I would have no idea that one could be sitting next to me and I wouldn't even know.

• 4:26Speaker 02

  Well, you might if it's, if it's a famous, you know, like Bryan Cranston was sitting there.

• 4:31Josh Clark?

  He was?

• 4:32Speaker 02

  No, but he could be. I saw, years ago, I saw Dexter in there. What's his name?

• 4:38Josh Clark?

  Dexter's good enough.

• 4:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, this year I saw the lady from Lost, although I don't think she's on Broadway. She was in there. But all this to say, big thanks to Jason, who helps take care of Barson Trolley and Joe's on Broadway. He came over on his night off just to say hi and was just a total sweetheart of a guy.

• 4:56Josh Clark?

  What a trip.

• 4:58Speaker 02

  And then finally, I want to thank Santa, Santa Claus, in the Radio City Music Hall show. I surprised Emily by going to the Christmas show this year for the first time.

• 5:09Josh Clark?

  Yeah, I remember Santa wrote in.

• 5:11Speaker 02

  Santa wrote in, and although he was not in the performance we went to, Santa, Adam, was very kind to send a Christmas video to Ruby. Have you been to the show?

• 5:22Josh Clark?

  No, I'm just some bumpkin who stays at home all the time, apparently.

• 5:27Speaker 02

  Dude, you and you me have to go to the Radio City Music, or Christmas Spectacular. It is one of the delights of my life. The Rockettes was one of the most impressive, most amazing live shows of any kind of ever seen. They were incredible.

• 5:43Josh Clark?

  Wow. Okay, I'll go.

• 5:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, and it's, you know, you love, you guys love your Christmas cheer and it really, you can't, even the biggest Grinchy curmudgeon wouldn't help but get in the mood, even at the 10 a.m. show. But the Rockettes were amazing and Santa said that he turned them on to our listener mail and the Rockettes episode and some of the now current Rockettes are listening.

• 6:05Josh Clark?

  Oh, cool.

• 6:06Speaker 02

  So, a shout out to you Rockettes. Keep, keep on kicking.

• 6:10Josh Clark?

  Hello, Rockettes. We did a whole show on the Rockettes, didn't we?

• 6:13Speaker 02

  We did.

• 6:14Josh Clark?

  Yeah. All right, that was amazing, Chuck.

• 6:17Speaker 02

  You were, you were sick over the holidays and I felt terrible.

• 6:20Josh Clark?

  It really stunk. I got this cold that.

• 6:24Josh Clark?

  Apparently, there's like a two-week cold going around.

• 6:27Speaker 02

  Oh, no, that long?

• 6:28Josh Clark?

  And it was just like every day I would add a new symptom and it was, I could do stuff during the day, but I was just sick the whole time.

• 6:35Speaker 02

  Oh dude, I'm so sorry.

• 6:36Josh Clark?

  It was rough, yeah. So, thanks for that, I appreciate it. But we still had a great Christmas.

• 6:41Speaker 02

  Well, that's good.

• 6:41Josh Clark?

  Momo knows how to open presents, so she opened presents on Christmas morning. She was so happy.

• 6:47Speaker 02

  Paws or teeth?

• 6:48Josh Clark?

  Quite a, both.

• 6:49Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 6:50Josh Clark?

  Yeah, she's a pro. She knows what she's doing. She got some new rabbit treats, so she laid on her back and rolled on those and she had a great Christmas morning, so.

• 6:58Speaker 02

  That's wonderful.

• 6:58Josh Clark?

  It was a good Christmas after all. We hung out with friends on Christmas Eve and our friends Laurel and Brayden and their kids Elliot and Bear.

• 7:07Speaker 02

  I know those guys, right?

• 7:09Josh Clark?

  Yeah, you do. You've met them plenty of times. So, we got to hang out with little kids on Christmas Eve and man, that will put you in the Christmas spirit when you don't have kids of your own.

• 7:17Speaker 02

  Yeah. How old are those kids?

• 7:19Josh Clark?

  They're like eight and six, I think, so like.

• 7:22Speaker 02

  That's fun.

• 7:23Josh Clark?

  Prime age.

• 7:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, right in the zone.

• 7:25Josh Clark?

  Yeah. So, thank you, though, for your sympathy over my sicknesses.

• 7:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, I felt bad.

• 7:30Josh Clark?

  Uh, one thing I don't have, Chuck, which I am really happy I don't have, because it's awful, is SAD.

• 7:38Speaker 02

  No SADS for you?

• 7:39Josh Clark?

  I don't have SAD. Do you have SAD?

• 7:41Speaker 02

  No, I don't have SAD. Uh, you know, we're talking about seasonal affective disorder and just right off the bat, we should point out, because I was about to say occasionally I get the winter blues, this is not that. This is a real, uh, it's legitimate depression and, uh, comorbid with stuff like bipolar disorder and we're gonna talk all about it, but it's not just, you know, oh, I get a little blue in the winter sometimes when it's, you know, gloomy.

• 8:08Josh Clark?

  No, um, but it's tied to that.

• 8:11Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 8:11Josh Clark?

  It's just, it seems to be an extreme version of that, but you're right, it's not, it's nothing light. It's classified, I believe in the DSM, as a major depressive disorder.

• 8:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 8:22Josh Clark?

  With a seasonal pattern. I think that's the clinical name for seasonal affective disorder. And, um, there are people out there, I think something like 5% of people, I don't, I believe that's an American statistic.

• 8:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's America.

• 8:38Josh Clark?

  Get the like real deal seasonal affective disorder where they have major depressive symptoms during the winter months. But something like 10% or maybe even higher than that in the United States, people get what's called sub-syndromal seasonal affective disorder. So where you don't have it, where it can be considered major depression, but it's definitely worse than the holiday blues. And the weird thing about this, although it's not so weird once we explain it, it is seasonal, it's tied to winter. And it seems that

• 9:13Speaker 02

  Or summer.

• 9:14Josh Clark?

  Or summer, which that one's just mind blowing to me.

• 9:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, we'll get into that.

• 9:19Josh Clark?

  Yeah, the, it seems like they have it figured out. They have this, they have it explained. So this is one of my fave episodes where it's like, here's how the human body works. Here's what's messed up with this when we're talking about this. Ta-da, I love episodes like that.

• 9:34Speaker 02

  Yeah, not a lot of mystery. Big thanks to Livia for getting the new year off to a great start with another banger.

• 9:40Josh Clark?

  Yeah, here, here.

• 9:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, we should say that this is something that hasn't been officially, I mean, it's obviously been around since, you know, time began because as we'll see, it's tied to seasons and especially light and how much light you're getting. So that's always been a thing. But it hasn't been officially diagnosed as a thing for that long. It was in 1984 when there was a paper by researchers at the National Institutes of Health, a particularly guy named Norman Rosenthal, got together and they discussed these, almost 30, I have a feeling one dropped out. Cause there were 29 patients. Most of them had bipolar disorder and they all had what we now know is as sad.

• 10:24Josh Clark?

  Yeah, that 30th one, when they like one weekend, they're like, how do you feel? And they were like, fine. And they're like, you're cut.

• 10:31Speaker 02

  You can go home.

• 10:32Josh Clark?

  Get out of here.

• 10:32Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 10:33Josh Clark?

  So yeah, bipolar disorders, we'll see like really kind of ties into this. It seems to be like also seasonal in some weird way too. But pretty quickly after that 1984 paper, the DSM went all in. Three, three years later, the DSM three R, as we all know, R stands for revised or ROKAN. That came out in 1987 and it was like, now it was a diagnosis, but it was used as a modifier as we saw major depressive disorder with a seasonal pattern. So it wasn't its own thing. It was just a subtype essentially of an existing depressive disorder. That's kind of how they first had it.

• 11:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, and you know, because it's seasonal, the most common kind of sad that we think about, and like we've mentioned, it is very serious thing and it starts off in the fall, maybe early winter, and it kind of depends on where you are, as we'll see, although not always intuitively. There's a third act reveal that might surprise some people. It generally subsides in the spring. But I did mention that that odd spring and summer variety, that hasn't been studied much, it's very, very limited. About 0.5% of the population has this opposite pattern. But it is a diagnosable mood disruption. It just happens in the spring and summer. And it's tied more to sort of like oppressive heat.

• 12:00Speaker 02

  And maybe unsurprisingly, some of the things they recommend for that, which again, we're going to cover a little more later is stuff like, maybe stay inside, dim the lights, that kind of thing.

• 12:10Josh Clark?

  Yeah, and the thing that gets me about the summer version, that much rarer one, is that the symptoms are almost, in some cases, opposite the symptoms of winter. So usually when you first start getting sad, it's around young adulthood, ages 18 to 30, I think. And most people who get it, get it most years, but you don't necessarily have it every year. Women are four times likelier than men to have it. And if you have an existing mood disorder, you're much likelier to suffer from seasonal affective disorder. Because it's almost like it takes your existing mood disorder, say bipolar 2, and just builds on it.

• 12:52Josh Clark?

  There's an extra like environmental punch to it that really kind of kicks it into high gear.

• 12:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, and that four times more common in women, that's really substantial. And we'll get into that. It seems to be tied to estrogen, but we'll dig into that a little bit more in a bit. But having family members, they think there's some genetic component to it. If you have relatives that have depression or any kind of mental health disorder, it's, you know, obviously, it doesn't mean you will. But that could mean you might. I guess that's the way doctors say it.

• 13:28Josh Clark?

  Yeah, you might got it.

• 13:30Speaker 02

  And not surprisingly, you're more likely to develop sad if you live in places in the far, you know, away from the equator, far north or south, where there's going to be less sunlight. Or maybe, you know, in places like Seattle, where there's just more gray days than others.

• 13:45Josh Clark?

  Yeah, I was surprised. I couldn't find the other eight, the first eight, but Seattle was the ninth most affected city with seasonal affective disorder. I would have thought it'd be higher than that. I could not find the first eight. So I'm like, does this list really exist? Or was this just like a post-intelligence or made up article?

• 14:04Speaker 02

  And do they, do they tie in things like, or do they list things like Tacoma? Like neighboring, neighboring towns? Does that count as a different place, I wonder?

• 14:14Josh Clark?

  That's a great question. What about Tacoma?

• 14:16Speaker 02

  Well, I just wondered. Tacoma's very lovely, but maybe Seattle might be a little more lively.

• 14:23Josh Clark?

  Um, yeah, no.

• 14:23Speaker 02

  Am I gonna get in trouble?

• 14:25Josh Clark?

  No, no, everybody knows about Tacoma.

• 14:27Speaker 02

  Okay, okay.

• 14:29Josh Clark?

  It's been a long time since we picked on a particular city.

• 14:32Speaker 02

  Oh, I don't want to put Tacoma on our sites.

• 14:34Josh Clark?

  Okay, we won't.

• 14:35Speaker 02

  Because you know, you can't spell, can't spell C-TAC without tac.

• 14:39Josh Clark?

  That's right. Um, so what happens when you experience sad, seasonal affective disorder? I mean, most people can kind of come up with this idea of like, what depression symptoms seem like, but there's specific ones that, that emerge with seasonal affective disorder.

• 14:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think, you know, generally what you will see, like with most depression, listlessness, obviously sadness, interest in activities that you might normally like, you don't like as much, you may have a hard time concentrating, suicidal thoughts, if it gets really bad, hopelessness, maybe guilt sometimes, and then some physical symptoms, like just a weight, like in your limbs, sometimes?

• 15:22Josh Clark?

  Yeah, like a lethargy, a fatigue.

• 15:24Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 15:24Josh Clark?

  And those, yeah, that's kind of common among depression in general, but, but winter sad has some extra symptoms like oversleeping, or just sleeping too much, or more than you normally would, craving carbs, overeating.

• 15:40Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 15:40Josh Clark?

  Weight gain. And then that fatigue, the low energy and tiredness and all of those things too, create like a feedback loop where, you know, if you're depressed and you start gaining weight and that kind of thing bothers you, you're going to be even more depressed because you just started gaining weight, in which case, if you're an emotional eater, you might go eat more carbs and gain more weight and there, you know, it just kind of goes on. So that's one of the difficult things about it is it's, it's not just like, I'm depressed. It's, I'm depressed and now everything is set up because of this winter season for me to just keep getting more and more depressed while winter's going on.

• 16:23Speaker 02

  Yeah. And if you're sitting there thinking like, oh man, like in the wintertime, I tend to sleep later and I tend to eat and maybe drink a little more and gain some weight and I'm a little more tired. Those are also, that's why sad is such a sort of a unique thing because that also just describes a lot of people in the winter. But there, there is a difference and you know, we're going to be pointing out those differences. You mentioned summer was unusual because the summer sads, because it's very much opposite. And that goes for the symptoms as well because instead of sleeping in, you might have trouble sleeping. Instead of eating too much, you might have a low appetite, you might lose weight, you might be anxious and agitated and irritable. Headaches is another one for summer sad?

• 17:07Josh Clark?

  Yeah, it's like winter sad, you go inward and are kind of closed off. And with summer sad, you go outward, but it's not in any, like, that doesn't mean you're just more sociable. It means like you're more aggro potentially than you would be with like winter sad. So yeah, it is, they're just kind of opposites. And yet they tie into like you were saying, how people already are. Like you go out more in the summertime, you stay in more in the wintertime. So what seems to be the case with seasonal affective disorder is that it is a hyper or hypo version of a normal human biological imperative that we have

• 17:51Josh Clark?

  learned as a society to try to ignore. And for some people, ignoring it is not really an option because it's so pronounced.

• 18:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, and inescapable.

• 18:04Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 18:05Speaker 02

  So there are basically four things. And like I said, if you feel like, oh, man, I kind of feel those things in the winter, too. Listen to these four things because this is when you should see a medical professional. As if, one, if these feelings persist for days and days in a row. It's not like, oh, I just had a couple of rough days when it was like really rainy and cold. If your sleep and appetite patterns like really change is the second one. If you're coping with drugs and alcohol, that's a big red flag. And then the fourth one, if you feel hopeless or suicidal for sure. And I think as far as diagnosis goes, you have to. I think it has to be for at least two years in a row. Even though you did say you don't necessarily have it all years.

• 18:50Speaker 02

  You at least have to have it two years in a row at some point.

• 18:54Josh Clark?

  Yeah. And because it is essentially, if you look at the winter sad and summer sad, they're basically two ends of a spectrum.

• 19:02Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 19:02Josh Clark?

  Mania and depression. Like people with bipolar two are definitely more susceptible to sad. And they might experience both types of seasonal. Although, again, just statistically speaking, they're much more likely to just experience the winter sad.

• 19:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, for sure. And if you do see a professional, they're probably going to ask you a lot of questions. You might even fill out an official questionnaire. There's no like blood test or brain scan or anything like, like, you know, other types of depression. That's the case as well. But you might get, they might rule things out. They might do like a thyroid screening or, you know, some other things just to make sure it's not something like physical going on.

• 19:42Josh Clark?

  Right. So that's sad, everybody. And I think we should talk about where this whole thing comes from, they think, after a break. Chuck, our first break of 2026. Let's make it a big one.

• 19:56Speaker 02

  You still got it. You still got it.

• 19:59Josh Clark?

  All right.

• 20:36Speaker 02

  You know, you're never done decorating your home. You know what I mean?

• 20:39Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 20:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, because it's a process. There's always something you could do, or buy, or update. The only question is, what's next? For us, our animals just wear out our rugs so quickly. It's usually a new rug.

• 20:49Josh Clark?

  Well, Chuck, whether you need a rug, or whatever is next for you, you can go to Wayfair. It's the smart place to get it.

• 20:56Speaker 02

  That's right. Whatever your style, whatever your budget, whatever you're looking for, Wayfair makes it easy to find it. And you can feel good about your purchases, too, because Wayfair verified products go through a thorough 10-point quality inspection.

• 21:08Josh Clark?

  And with over 20 million 5-star reviews, Wayfair must be doing something right. You can find pieces made for real life and get even more value with Wayfair Rewards. Join Wayfair Rewards today to get 5% back on every purchase. Head to wayfair.com to shop all things home. That's W-A-Y-F-A-I-R dot com.

• 21:29Speaker 04

  Wayfair, every style, every home.

• 21:34Josh Clark?

  Buy smart, drive for less, and trade for more. That's Toyota affordability. And it all starts with a great deal on a truck from your local Toyota dealer.

• 21:43Speaker 02

  That's right. Make a smart buy on the Off-Road Ready Tacoma or Half-Ton Tundra, two of Toyota's most capable and longest-lasting trucks, built with the strength for the tough jobs, the tech to power your next big adventure, and the rugged style for everything in between.

• 21:56Josh Clark?

  Or discover Toyota's off-road lineup, including the iconic 4Runner and Land Cruiser, designed to go beyond the everyday. And with Toyota's proven reputation for quality and reliability, plus hybrid power on many models, you can get more for every mile and drive for less along the way.

• 22:12Speaker 02

  That's right. And long after you leave the lot, your Toyota keeps delivering with great resale value. So you can trade in for more when you're ready for your next Toyota. From a great deal today to a great value tomorrow, a Toyota is right for you. Shop toyota.com for deals and details, or stop by your local Toyota dealer today. Toyota, let's go places.

• 22:34Speaker 05

  First thought is like, wow, how are we going to do all this?

• 22:37Josh Clark?

  Hey, this is Josh and Chuck from Stuff You Should Know.

• 22:40Speaker 02

  That's Alan Goya, Planning Engineer at AT&T, and he's talking about Intuit Dome, home of the Los Angeles Clippers, where every seat, screen, phone, and transaction is connected with AT&T fiber and 5G, redefining the fan's experience. And Alan's master plan made it all possible.

• 22:55Speaker 05

  It was going to rival anything that was already built. And that takes quite a bit of people and different teams to all be on the same page.

• 23:03Josh Clark?

  That includes Field Services Manager Drexel Jones. His team made sure it all came together and held up on game day.

• 23:09Speaker 02

  Through what Alan's whole crew designed, we connected the event visitors to the world. And after years of hard work and collaboration, it was opening night. To actually see the whole stadium light up and data is flowing is a beautiful thing.

• 23:23Speaker 05

  What the fans experience is incredible. It gave me a lot of pride.

• 23:26Josh Clark?

  AT&T, connecting fans to what they love.

• 23:30Speaker 06

  Connecting changes everything. AT&T.

• 23:47Speaker 02

  All right, so kind of like we were talking, it's kind of hard to diagnose this as far as when you should go to a doctor because a lot of people are just like this in the winter. And you're also sort of fighting, I think you kind of hinted at it, like a natural, human intuition in a lot of ways. Because if you go back in time to the time where Tuk Tuk was roaming the earth, in the winter, they slowed down and they conserved energy because food wasn't around and it was cold. So they bunkered down. And there are some interesting theories around that, right?

• 24:23Josh Clark?

  Yeah, they think it's possible that Neanderthals had like a real

• 24:29Josh Clark?

  type of hibernation period in the winter. Not, you know, like a bear necessarily, but something more pronounced than humans. And that interbreeding with Neanderthals

• 24:41Josh Clark?

  may have produced seasonal affective disorder in some people. It's pretty cool.

• 24:46Speaker 02

  When Homo sapiens started hugging and kissing Neanderthals?

• 24:48Josh Clark?

  That's right, like in, what was it? Quest for Fire.

• 24:54Speaker 02

  Oh, man. That there was some real realizations in that movie.

• 24:59Josh Clark?

  It was a, I mean, what an interesting movie, though, you know?

• 25:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, Ron Perlman.

• 25:05Josh Clark?

  Yeah, he really, he's, he's a good caveman.

• 25:08Speaker 02

  That, by the way, did a minute ago, did I say bunker down?

• 25:11Josh Clark?

  Mm hmm.

• 25:12Speaker 02

  I meant to say hunker down. Is bunker down even a thing?

• 25:15Josh Clark?

  I feel like it should be more than hunker down. It makes more sense.

• 25:19Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 25:20Josh Clark?

  I didn't even know. I heard you and made like I grasped that you said bunker down.

• 25:25Speaker 02

  Right.

• 25:25Josh Clark?

  But it's so natural that it didn't even seem wrong.

• 25:28Speaker 02

  Yeah. And, and our Georgia Bulldogs, what they say for them is hunker down, you hairy dogs. I'm gonna start saying bunker down and everyone's just gonna think I'm like a CIA plant or something.

• 25:38Josh Clark?

  Right, a narc.

• 25:40Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 25:41Josh Clark?

  Oh, I can't talk about the dogs right now.

• 25:43Speaker 02

  I know, very disappointing.

• 25:44Josh Clark?

  What a heartbreaker.

• 25:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 25:46Josh Clark?

  Uh, okay. So you said something like, um, that, that people back in Tuk Tuk's age, definitely slow down in the wintertime, right? Or your body just changes. And that's still the case with humans. We have not evolved out of that. Uh, and there, there's been studies, there was a 2015 study that found that the Simane in Bolivia and the San people in Namibia, who are in no way, shape or form related, one's in South America, one's in Africa.

• 26:15Josh Clark?

  They both sleep longer in the winter and less in the summer. And you might say like, well, duh, we all do that. That's exactly the point. There's some sort of biological mechanism. There's some sort of, like I said, imperative, where you, without conscious thought and kind of without, um, without a choice, you slow down in the wintertime and you speed up more in the summertime. That's just what our bodies do. And because of this natural thing, it can go haywire, just like any other natural thing in humans. And when it does, that produces seasonal affective disorder. And they think they've got the mechanism to the whole thing down.

• 26:57Speaker 02

  Yeah. And that, you know, that's kind of evidence in this, uh, German study from 2023. They did a study and caveat all this was, it was a study already of people that had, uh, sleeping issues with disturbed sleeping patterns.

• 27:11Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 27:11Speaker 02

  So it was kind of, you know, it wasn't just the, the general population. And interestingly, they found that even if they were living. And a place where it was mostly artificial light, even then, by season, their sleep cycles would vary. So it's not just like, yeah, if you, if you live out away from all the, you know, out in the boonies, away from industrialization and your circadian rhythms are really dictated by natural light. That would make sense, but they found that that took place even when you were just living a regular, well-lit life.

• 27:41Josh Clark?

  Yeah, even when you lived in a windowless, brutalist apartment in Munich.

• 27:47Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 27:47Josh Clark?

  You wear a black turtleneck all year round.

• 27:50Speaker 02

  Oh, man.

• 27:52Josh Clark?

  And then another kind of thing, like you said, that was a small study and it was of people who already had a sleep disorder. Yet it backs up what everybody kind of anecdotally already knows, right? You sleep more in the season or you're more tired in the winter season. Another thing that's anecdotal, but is backed up by studies that your appetite changes, right?

• 28:12Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 28:13Josh Clark?

  Some of it's cultural where like, you know, Christmas cookies are around.

• 28:18Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 28:18Josh Clark?

  You're gonna eat them.

• 28:19Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 28:20Josh Clark?

  And Christmas cookies aren't around in March, say. Maybe some maniac makes like St. Patrick's Day cookies, but way more people make Christmas cookies than St. Patrick's Day cookies. So there are reasons that your appetite does increase is because there's more delicious stuff around. But we've also found that just by being in colder temperatures, being exposed to colder temperatures over periods of time, hormone levels change in our bodies and we crave more calories. Because as we digest them, we produce more heat and that keeps us warm. We don't need bear skins anymore.

• 28:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's right. We need Buckeye balls. And Emily's aunt comes to town every Christmas now and all the, her mom and her aunt and her sister and Ruby, they all make, have a night making Christmas cookies.

• 29:12Josh Clark?

  Nice.

• 29:14Speaker 02

  Oh dude, I did better this year than usual. I somehow managed to only put on five pounds.

• 29:20Josh Clark?

  Hey, that's not bad for a Christmas season.

• 29:22Speaker 02

  From Thanksgiving to January 4th?

• 29:24Josh Clark?

  Yeah, that's great.

• 29:26Speaker 02

  That's not bad, because usually that number is more like 12. So, and I've found that that temporary sort of gain goes off a little quicker, too.

• 29:35Josh Clark?

  Yeah, it certainly can.

• 29:36Speaker 02

  Once you get back to reason, you know?

• 29:37Josh Clark?

  Yeah, that's the key, is getting back to reason faster than, you know, just not putting it off for the rest of the month of January. That's what I've found.

• 29:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, and the buck eyeballs are gone, and those old fashions really slow down after Christmas.

• 29:50Josh Clark?

  Man, those buck eyeballs.

• 29:52Speaker 02

  Oh, God.

• 29:54Josh Clark?

  I made my mom's Christmas cookies, my mom's recipe, the one that I grew up with as a kid that had confounded me for years, because I couldn't get it quite right. It was always too flowery.

• 30:05Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 30:05Josh Clark?

  And in the last few years, I've learned enough about baking that I kind of figured it out on my own, and I nailed it finally.

• 30:11Speaker 02

  Nice.

• 30:12Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 30:13Speaker 02

  I gotta have some of those.

• 30:14Josh Clark?

  I'll make you some.

• 30:15Speaker 02

  Next Christmas, though.

• 30:17Josh Clark?

  Yes, for sure. Not, well, or St. Patrick's Day, maybe.

• 30:20Speaker 02

  Don't do it.

• 30:22Josh Clark?

  But you got me these cookie cutters that are all like, kind of, they're like sentimental between us, like different shapes.

• 30:29Speaker 02

  Oh, that's nice.

• 30:30Josh Clark?

  And one of them is broccoli, so I have broccoli-shaped cookie cutters, and I hate broccoli, so it's...

• 30:36Speaker 02

  Oh, I love that. That's fun.

• 30:37Josh Clark?

  Yeah. I don't have any, oh yeah, we were talking about how appetite changes.

• 30:43Speaker 02

  That's right. Here is one thing, though. You might think, you've probably heard that like, you know, suicides spike around the holidays, because it can be such a tough time of the year for people. That is actually not true. In fact, they happen the least in December. They're more common in the summertime. Of course, in Australia, that's reversed because of where they are and how their seasons run. So, we're talking about the, you know, our hemisphere's perspective, obviously?

• 31:11Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 31:13Speaker 02

  But I found that interesting and it's good to correct the record because I think everyone always hears that. It's probably good in a way because it's anytime you're raising awareness on something like that, that's a good thing, but that's not true that they spike over the holidays.

• 31:26Josh Clark?

  No, I feel like we've talked about that before and they think that maybe like just by people reaching out more during the holidays, you have a greater social calendar typically. Just the holiday spirit can get to people, but then also there's some other explanations for why it might be more common in the spring or summer months, like you might just have more energy to actually complete suicide.

• 31:53Speaker 02

  Right.

• 31:54Josh Clark?

  Another one that I thought was just horrible is that you, there are autoimmune conditions like lupus or rheumatoid arthritis that are linked to seasonal allergies and that people who have those are this overlooked population of people with a higher suicide risk and that that would account for it because your lupus is probably flaring up way more in the spring and summer than it is in the winter months.

• 32:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, for sure. And you know, we've kind of hinted around about the length of day and we're going to talk a lot about that over the next little bit, but it is, you know, it's intuitive and it's correct that the more intense that seasonal change is as far as that length of day goes, the more likely you're gonna have SAD. There was a, I believe it was a meta-analysis from South Korea just last year in 2025, they did, studied 24 studies with 30,000 total participants, so pretty robust. And for each one degree of increase in latitude, SAD rose by 0.2% and the, just the winter blues by 0.32%. So

• 33:01Speaker 02

  one, you know, one degree increase in latitude is obviously a little less daylight.

• 33:06Josh Clark?

  It's like Jimmy Buffett said, changes in latitude, changes in attitude.

• 33:11Speaker 02

  Never thought about that.

• 33:12Josh Clark?

  That's what he was talking about with seasonal affective disorder in that song.

• 33:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, he changed the title though, because you know, when you title things like Cheeseburger in Paradise, you can't title something Seasonal Affective Disorder.

• 33:22Josh Clark?

  Well, it was originally, this song was titled Major Depressive Disorder with a Seasonal Pattern.

• 33:28Speaker 02

  Right.

• 33:29Josh Clark?

  So yeah, I think he was wise to change it as well. So let's talk about, you want to get into some of the causes? I've been teasing this, basically the entire episode, and I'm really kind of jazzed about this part.

• 33:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, here's, here's where it gets sciency, because our old friends, obviously serotonin and melatonin show up, right?

• 33:48Josh Clark?

  Yes. So just as a refresher, serotonin is responsible for things like mood, sleep, cognition, a bunch of other stuff. But as far as seasonal affective disorder goes, those are the important things that serotonin does, right?

• 34:02Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 34:03Josh Clark?

  What's really cool, I didn't actually realize this, sunlight hitting your retina actually triggers production of serotonin. It increases the production of serotonin, right? So therefore, when we're exposed to less sunlight, there's a lower angle of the sun. You just don't get as much sun physically in the winter months.

• 34:26Josh Clark?

  That means that your serotonin levels are actually less in winter than they are in the brighter spring and summer months. That's just a fact. It happens to everybody. But in most people, your serotonin transporter gene starts producing less serotonin transporter, the stuff that goes in and gets the serotonin out of the synapse, right?

• 34:50Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 34:51Josh Clark?

  Which means that there's less serotonin, but there's also less transporters removing the serotonin that's there. So you keep about the same level of, say, mood that you would have in the summer months, because your body is adjusting. What they found, just amazingly, is that there are two things that are screwed up with the serotonin and the serotonin transporter that seem to be one of the major causes of seasonal affective disorder.

• 35:19Speaker 02

  So spill it, you're on a roll.

• 35:21Josh Clark?

  Okay.

• 35:23Josh Clark?

  So people with seasonal, who get seasonal affective disorder, they have enough serotonin all year to keep them from being depressed, right? But just like everybody else, when they are exposed to less light, their serotonin goes down. But the thing that seems to give them seasonal affective disorder is that their serotonin transporters don't also go down.

• 35:46Speaker 02

  Right.

• 35:46Josh Clark?

  So like everybody else, they have lower serotonin during the winter, but they have the same amount of serotonin transporters. So there's less serotonin. And proportionately speaking, there's more serotonin transporters removing the serotonin, keeping it from working, which pushes them from non-depressed to depressive symptoms, all because they're exposed to less light during the winter time.

• 36:12Speaker 02

  Yeah. And, you know, I mentioned, women have it four times as often as men do, and it was tied to estrogen. And it looks like variations in estrogen levels can interact with those changes in serotonin and, and basically make it worse. And that probably is the explanation why women get it more.

• 36:29Josh Clark?

  Mm hmm.

• 36:30Speaker 02

  And, and, you know, perimenopause and menopause affect all that as well, which are,

• 36:37Speaker 02

  that's an episode we need to, we need to do for sure.

• 36:39Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 36:40Speaker 02

  And also there, you know, we mentioned there's a genetic element, right? So it looks like that people, this is generally speaking, who have at least one short allele in that serotonin transporter gene promoter region, I know that's a lot of words, everybody. The T L D L is too, too long to didn't listen? Is that right?

• 37:00Josh Clark?

  Yeah, nice.

• 37:02Speaker 02

  Is that, uh, it's, there's a genetic component. So if you have that short allele, you're going to be more, more vulnerable to developing just regular depression, to, to any kind of like, you know, life events or stresses like that, or just depression period. But that short allele is also associated with those higher S E R T levels, the S E R T levels in the winter. And that's where your increased level of SAD is going to come on.

• 37:28Josh Clark?

  Yeah. So that's serotonin. That's a big, big factor in producing seasonal affective disorder, as well as just any kind of major depression, right?

• 37:37Speaker 02

  Yeah. So melatonin is next. And that, just kind of broadly speaking, as far as we're concerned, is, is the one that, you know, kind of makes you sleepy.

• 37:47Josh Clark?

  Yeah, which I mean, it can make you sleepy. It can make you lethargic. It can make you not want to go out. And all of this stuff, remember, there's a positive feedback loop here with the depressive symptoms that come on with seasonal affective disorder, the behavior they produce feeding back into becoming more and more depressed.

• 38:03Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 38:04Josh Clark?

  Melatonin keeps you from wanting to do stuff because that's the way our bodies are set up to respond during the winter. It all has to do with the circadian rhythm, which as everybody knows, most people know, governs your sleep and wake cycle, right?

• 38:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 38:20Josh Clark?

  It also has to do with digestion. It has to do with body temperature and all sorts of other hormones. I didn't know this, but apparently it has to do with the release of cortisol, which we think of cortisol typically as a stress hormone, full stop. And it is, but it also is a hormone that causes us to do more stuff, to produce more energy. So when the circadian rhythm is not quite functioning correctly, it doesn't just make us sleepy, it actually makes us less energetic as well. And the whole thing, the whole circadian rhythm is controlled by a little part of the hypothalamus called the suprachiasmatic nucleus, or the SCN.

• 39:01Speaker 02

  Nice work on that one.

• 39:02Josh Clark?

  I practiced a couple of times.

• 39:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, the SCN, and this is where we can throw a little German in there, it relies on zeitgebungs or timegibbers. And these are just clues from the world around us telling you, you know, what's going on. And mainly what we're talking about here is light. Sunlight, again, hitting those retinas, it travels to the SCN, and then that signals the pineal gland to release or produce that melatonin. So the more light you have, the less melatonin you have. That's why, you know, you're not supposed to be looking at your cellphone or avoid like really bright lights before you try and get some sleep.

• 39:39Josh Clark?

  Mm hmm.

• 39:40Speaker 02

  But the TL, DL here is, it just means our bodies make more melatonin in the wintertime than the summertime. So you're going to be sleeping longer and probably a little more lethargic.

• 39:50Josh Clark?

  Yeah, exactly. So serotonin plus melatonin being messed with, it happens to everybody, but most people's bodies respond in a way that that regulates it and keeps it from becoming depression. Some people do not have that same way to regulate it, and that's who has seasonal affective disorder.

• 40:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, and I thought this is really interesting. So it's, you know, we just said that if you experience sad, then you're probably, you're going to have a greater than average increase in melatonin in the winter than, you know, your, your average person.

• 40:22Josh Clark?

  Mm hmm.

• 40:23Speaker 02

  Uh, but this is really interesting. You know, we talked about sunlight coming through your retinas and that's the pathway that it initially travels.

• 40:29Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 40:30Speaker 02

  Maybe a little on your skin, but mainly through your retinas. They found that your retinas actually, actually react less to light in the winter compared to the summer.

• 40:38Josh Clark?

  You're right, Chuck. That is really interesting. Thank you, Josh.

• 40:43Speaker 02

  Uh, and I guess before we break, we should talk about the third little thing after serotonin and melatonin, which are social and environmental factors. Uh, you know, if you have sad, you, you, when it's, when fall rolls around, you start to get that dread. Um, you're going to have a negative emotional response to winter. It's not the cause of it, but that's part of that feedback, feedback loop that you were talking about. You're like, oh, man, the days are going to get shorter. Uh, if you live in the Pacific Northwest or other places where it rains a lot and it's just more gray days that time of year.

• 41:16Josh Clark?

  Mm hmm.

• 41:17Speaker 02

  You just, you start to have that dread and that just, that just feeds everything.

• 41:20Josh Clark?

  Yep. Yeah. It just makes it worse. And then, yeah, the whole thing is that feedback loop. Chuck, I'm going to do it again. Um, I think we should take a message break.

• 41:31Speaker 02

  All right. We'll finish up with sad right after this.

• 42:11Josh Clark?

  Buy smart, drive for less, and trade for more. That's Toyota affordability. And it all starts with a great deal on a truck from your local Toyota dealer.

• 42:20Speaker 02

  That's right. Make a smart buy on the off-road Ready Tacoma or half-ton Tundra, two of Toyota's most capable and longest-lasting trucks. Built with the strength for the tough jobs, the tech to power your next big adventure, and the rugged style for everything in between.

• 42:33Josh Clark?

  Or discover Toyota's off-road lineup, including the iconic 4Runner and Land Cruiser, designed to go beyond the everyday. And with Toyota's proven reputation for quality and reliability, plus hybrid power on many models, you can get more for every mile and drive for less along the way.

• 42:49Speaker 02

  That's right. And long after you leave the lot, your Toyota keeps delivering with great resale value. So you can trade in for more when you're ready for your next Toyota. From a great deal today to a great value tomorrow, a Toyota is right for you. Shop toyota.com for deals and details, or stop by your local Toyota dealer today. Toyota, let's go places.

• 43:13Speaker 02

  So you're considering getting a home security system, but you want something that fits your space. Well, with ADT Blue, it's easy to customize a system that's right for you and set it up yourself. Just pick the kit and monitoring plan that makes sense for your home.

• 43:26Josh Clark?

  Yeah, so you're worried about package theft. Well, the ADT Plus app can walk you through setting up a new doorbell camera kit. Once it's installed, ADT Pros can help you keep tabs on it 24/7. Or you can manage it yourself from the ADT Plus app.

• 43:39Speaker 02

  And here's the best thing. There are no long-term contracts, so you can change your monitoring plan whenever you want. The flexibility doesn't end there either. You can add to your system as you need to with things like extra cameras or motion sensors.

• 43:50Josh Clark?

  Some life decisions are hard, but thanks to ADT Blue, you can DIY trusted ADT home security in a snap. Head to ADT.com/BLU to build your system today. And to hear more about home protection and other grown-up topics, check out new episodes of Grown Up Stuff on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 44:17Josh Clark?

  You know, eating is a huge part of our lives. It fuels us, it brings us together, and it's one of life's great pleasures. But once a meal's over, we don't think much about what happens next unless something starts to feel off, because what we eat and how our bodies respond to it is complicated.

• 44:33Speaker 02

  That's right. From the very first bite, food kicks off a chain reaction, signals moving between the gut, the brain, and the immune system, the constant back and forth we can't see and often don't fully understand. So we want to introduce to you Eating Interrupted, a new podcast from iHeart Ruby Studio. It's hosted by longtime journalist and Crohn's patient Cynthia McFadden. Eating Interrupted explores everything from food allergies and intolerance and why they seem to be on the rise, to how digestion changes as we age, and what it's really like to live with a chronic GI condition.

• 45:01Josh Clark?

  Through personal stories and expert insight, listen in to unpack what it means when your body doesn't always respond to food the way you expect, and what science is now revealing about why. Listen to Eating Interrupted on the iHeart app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 45:33Josh Clark?

  All right. So we talked several times about SAD being a form of major depression, which means that it is highly treatable, actually, thanks to our friend, the selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor, SSRI, or antidepressants. Apparently, well, butrin works really well to treat SAD, but basically, any SSRIs going to work. One thing that stuck out to me, I believe that if you have seasonal affective disorder, but you're not, you don't have bipolar, you don't have major depressive disorder, it's just seasonal. I guess they suggest that you take SSRIs, you ramp up in, say, like, the fall before

• 46:16Josh Clark?

  it becomes winter, and then you wean off as springtime comes around. So they would have you on SSRIs, but not year round, because you wouldn't need them year round. I thought that was fascinating, because that can be, that can be risky. If you don't do it right, it can be really risky.

• 46:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, and you know, one of the things after that they suggest with all of these treatments is that you you you start before it hits like, you know, and depending on where you live, like when fall starts rolling around, maybe you start some of these therapies to see if you can head it off at the pass, like in the old west.

• 46:53Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 46:54Speaker 02

  But CBT is another thing that they suggest, like all cognitive behavioral therapy. It's basically folk, you know, trying to get you to change the way you're thinking about a thing.

• 47:06Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 47:07Speaker 02

  It might be a group therapy, a couple of times a week over a couple of months, maybe. But specifically in this case, it's like, let's, let's try and get those negative thoughts about the upcoming season or the season that is upon you with positive ones. And maybe do things like, hey, I know this is a thing for me, so I'm gonna, I'm gonna plan some things specifically for this winter that I know that I will enjoy.

• 47:31Josh Clark?

  Yeah, like CBT seeks to break that feedback loop up.

• 47:35Speaker 02

  Right.

• 47:36Josh Clark?

  So at least you're not getting worse and worse because of all the others, the cascading effects it has.

• 47:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, for sure.

• 47:42Josh Clark?

  One of the other ones, like as that 1984 study right off the bat, came identified a really great treatment for seasonal affective disorder that's non-pharmaceutical, that you can do at home. As a matter of fact, you can do it at the library. I saw that the libraries in Northern Ireland rent out light boxes. It's called bright light therapy, uses very intense white light. Don't worry, there's a protective UV cover, so you're not blasting your face, you're not going to get a tan from it essentially. But your retinas are going to pick up on that white light, and so serotonin is going

• 48:22Josh Clark?

  to increase, your melatonin is going to not be so high, and it can actually treat especially moderate forms of seasonal affective disorder.

• 48:34Speaker 02

  Yeah, for sure. The idea is you put this light on, you don't just sit there and stare at it, you just kind of maybe do it in the morning, 15 minutes to an hour, maybe 45 minutes or so, cast it upon your face. This goes, is that funny?

• 48:50Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 48:51Speaker 02

  This goes all the way back, actually, to the 1700s. It was an Italian physician named Vincenzo Chiara Rugi, who way back then said, hey, if you're depressed, I think sunlight would help. So it's been a thing for a long time. But now, you know, obviously, they still say, get out in the sun if you can. But in a lot of places where there's limited light in the winter, or just gray days, like we were talking about, this is where the BLT, that bright light therapy comes in play. I saw they also make little hats, little visors.

• 49:20Josh Clark?

  Oh, yeah.

• 49:21Speaker 02

  That just shine down on your face at all times.

• 49:24Josh Clark?

  Nice. Like Collective Soul said.

• 49:27Speaker 02

  Yeah. I don't think you're supposed to. I think it's supposed to be limited still, though. You're not supposed to have that light on you at all times because it can, it can disrupt your sleep and cause eye strain and fatigue and stuff like that.

• 49:38Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 49:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 49:39Josh Clark?

  Yeah, you don't want to overdo it for sure. And I think it's different for each person, how much you actually need. But it does work. I know firsthand it works because Yumi used to get, I guess you would call sub-syndromal seasonal affective disorder. She didn't, definitely didn't have major depression, but it was like she was impacted noticeably. And she found out about light boxes and got one, and it helped her a lot.

• 50:04Speaker 02

  That's cool. I have friends that use these things just for, not even seasonal, just for, you know, regular depression. And they say it helps them out. Dawn stimulation is another thing. And it's kind of the same idea, but it's like one of those alarm clocks that, that slowly starts brightening your room over the course of like 30 minutes or so as you're waking up. So again, tied into the circadian rhythm of rising with the sun's rise.

• 50:30Josh Clark?

  Do you remember that alarm clock from the 70s and 80s that like it would light up? It had a picture of like, I think, like a fence out in the Old West.

• 50:41Speaker 02

  No.

• 50:41Josh Clark?

  And the sky would go like dark blue. It would like, it would change the color of the sky on the alarm clock picture, depending on what time of day it was. You don't remember those?

• 50:53Speaker 02

  No, I don't think I've ever seen those.

• 50:54Josh Clark?

  They were amazing. My oldest sister had one of those. I would love one. I don't know what happened to that. It probably broke.

• 51:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, my brother had one of those clocks, the alarm clocks that had the, like a rolodex that would flip the numbers around like mechanically.

• 51:10Josh Clark?

  Oh neat.

• 51:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, those were fun.

• 51:12Josh Clark?

  Yeah, the one I always had was like the

• 51:16Speaker 02

  Oh man, no.

• 51:17Josh Clark?

  Really? Yeah, when I was a teenager, that's what I needed.

• 51:21Speaker 02

  Or the two bells with the hammer.

• 51:22Josh Clark?

  I had one of those too.

• 51:24Speaker 02

  Oh man.

• 51:24Josh Clark?

  There was a period where I had the, the one that went wouldn't do it. So I had to switch over to the two bells one.

• 51:31Speaker 02

  Oh God. Have you always had a hard time waking up like that?

• 51:34Josh Clark?

  Yeah. Have I? I don't anymore, but yes, I used to when I was a teenager.

• 51:39Speaker 02

  Well, cause I get emails from you at like 5:30 in the morning. What the hell are you doing? Are you farming?

• 51:45Josh Clark?

  I've seen, I've milked the cows and emailing at the same time sometimes.

• 51:52Josh Clark?

  I have decided that getting up at five is way too early for me. So I'm, I'm doing six now.

• 51:59Speaker 02

  Hey, that's reasonable.

• 52:00Josh Clark?

  It is. Seven, sometimes if I'm feeling frisky.

• 52:04Speaker 02

  You had a really late night, the night before?

• 52:06Josh Clark?

  Yeah, I went to bed at 10.

• 52:09Speaker 02

  Uh, we should mention vitamin D, speaking of cows, uh, because vitamin D deficiency does correlate with a more likelihood of having or developing SAD. Uh, but they, they haven't found any like good, hard, consistent evidence that vitamin D supplements can help a lot.

• 52:25Josh Clark?

  There, there's one place, remember you said that high latitudes? The higher the latitude, the more negative the attitude. The likelier you are to have seasonal affective disorder. That does not hold true, at least in some parts, some of the most extremely northern parts of the world. In particular is a town called Tromsø, Norway. That is very northern, it might be the, the most northernmost city in Norway. It's really high up there. Suffice to say that they, um, they are absent from sunlight, I think two full months of, out of the year.

• 53:02Speaker 02

  Oh man.

• 53:03Josh Clark?

  Like nothing, nothing like the sun comes out. I mean, I think it might get as much as it would get like before sunrise on a normal day. And they go like that for two months and yet the rates of seasonal affective disorder are much less in Tromsø than you would expect.

• 53:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, it seems to be because they've done just sort of studies and questionnaires. And people there agree with statements like, I love the coziness of the winter months. Winter brings many wonderful seasonal changes. They don't agree with winter is boring, when winter is limiting. So it seems to really be a lot about the attitude. And, you know, I think if you live there, a lot of people probably don't just move there. It seems to be a place where you're usually from. Or maybe people do move to one of the most northernmost cities in the world. I'm sure it happens. But generally, if you have grown up in a place and that's the thing, everyone knows that's the thing. And so there are probably many, many events and traditions and activities that they do to thwart that.

• 54:07Speaker 02

  And it seems to work because they get into their skiing, they get into their winter hiking, they get into their cozy drinks and their warm blankets and their fireplaces. And it seems to be that they look forward to that stuff. And it bears out by them not having a prevalence of SAD there. It's kind of interesting.

• 54:25Josh Clark?

  Yeah, and some people point to that as evidence. They say that there's no such thing as SAD. That just does not make sense. If SAD is this response to biological imperative that happens every year among people who are maladjusted for that imperative, then that just should not be the way in Tromsø. And there was actually a study from 2016 from researchers at Auburn Montgomery, the University of Auburn in Montgomery. And they studied CDC data and they found no seasonal variations in depression symptoms. And it was a massive population that they studied.

• 55:06Josh Clark?

  And I mean, if there is such a thing as seasonal affective disorder, then there should be an increase in the winter months and they didn't find it. That does not seem to be the consensus among the scientific community. As a matter of fact, I went to go click on the link in the Scientific American article that we were checking out.

• 55:26Speaker 02

  And exploded.

• 55:28Josh Clark?

  It was gone. It couldn't find it.

• 55:30Speaker 02

  Oh, wow.

• 55:31Josh Clark?

  So it made me wonder if they quietly retracted it, or

• 55:35Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 55:36Josh Clark?

  Maybe it's just a broken link. You never can tell, but for the most part, if you look up seasonal affective disorder, every reliable website in America like Johns Hopkins, or Harvard Health, or Cleveland Clinic, Mayo Clinic, I could keep going. They are, they're all, are all, all in on seasonal affective disorder.

• 55:58Speaker 02

  I'm, uh, now I'm picturing just like a couple of scientists in a ditch being shoveled over with lime.

• 56:06Josh Clark?

  So just one thing before we stop, it has nothing to do with Norway, really, but it reminded me, I saw a, um, there's a good true crime.

• 56:16Josh Clark?

  I don't know if it's a docu drama, but it's based on real life and it's Danish. It's called The Investigation. It's so mellow.

• 56:26Speaker 02

  The Investigation. I love those, uh, I love stories set in those parts of the world. I love Danish filmmaking and Norwegian filmmaking.

• 56:33Josh Clark?

  You'll, you'll love this. It's like, there's at least one episode where almost the entire time, nothing happens and they just show nothing happening. It's, it's, but it's really good. It's really engrossing. So I would, I would recommend it.

• 56:46Speaker 02

  Awesome.

• 56:47Josh Clark?

  Chuck said awesome. That means he just triggered the first listener mail of 2026, everybody.

• 56:55Speaker 02

  That's right. This is from Megan in Michigan. Hey, guys. Thank you for the many years of engaging in interesting content. I first started listening in 2012 when I moved out of my home state and would download episodes onto CDs.

• 57:07Josh Clark?

  Nice.

• 57:07Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 57:08Josh Clark?

  That is, wow.

• 57:09Speaker 02

  I love it. Well, this will make you feel old, too, to pass the time on the long drives in my old Cavalier.

• 57:16Josh Clark?

  Wow, wow.

• 57:17Speaker 02

  They don't still make the Cavalier, do they?

• 57:18Josh Clark?

  I don't believe so, no. I think they buried them with those Auburn Montgomery researchers.

• 57:24Speaker 02

  Well, 2012, I'm surprised she wasn't in a Camry. I just listened to your dolls episode, guys. I had to write in. I have three kids and they have at times acted out scenarios with dolls and toys that would have been very disturbing if I had not been prepared that it was very normal and healthy, actually. The most recent example is when my five-year-old came into the house and told me that he and his three-year-old sister had made gravestones in the backyard because their twin baby dolls had died.

• 57:47Josh Clark?

  Oh, my.

• 57:48Speaker 02

  Even knowing it's normal, I do have to take a deep breath and remind myself that part of raising emotionally healthy kids is letting them process through play. Still, I was a bit relieved the next day, and they threw a big party for the baby's first birthday. So she skips out the part where they dug them up out of they exhume them from the grave.

• 58:08Speaker 02

  Thanks again for bringing so many topics and perspectives to light while somehow keeping things humorous and upbeat. Looking forward to learning more in 2026. That is Megan in Michigan.

• 58:16Josh Clark?

  Nice, Megan. Thank you for that. That was a great, great email. And God bless your kids for being awesome.

• 58:22Speaker 02

  For sure.

• 58:23Josh Clark?

  If you want to be like Megan and tell us about your awesome kids, we love that kind of thing. You can send it off to [email protected].

• 58:37Speaker 00

  Stuff You Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts, MyHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

• 58:52Josh Clark?

  Buy smart, drive for less, and trade for more. That's Toyota affordability. And it starts with a great deal on an off-road-ready Tacoma or half-ton Tundra, two of Toyota's longest-lasting trucks, combining power for work, tech for adventures, and style in between. And they're built on a reputation for quality and reliability, which is why Toyota trucks are known for holding their value, which could mean big savings when it's time for your next Toyota. So get a great deal today and a great value tomorrow. Shop toyota.com for more. Toyota, let's go places. Introducing Voices of Vivgard. Vivgard is also known as its generic Eric named Efgart Tigamod Alpha F Cab. And this new show features firsthand stories from people living with a rare disease.

• 59:34Josh Clark?

  Hosted by Andrew Stratton, these perspectives highlight that life is more than a moment, a condition, or a tough day. Living with a rare disease can be challenging, but it does not define the voices of VivGart. In these episodes, they share their stories, from diagnosis to working with their care team on their treatment plan. Listen to Voices of VivGart on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 59:57Speaker 07

  Do you ever feel like your computer is tracking you? Well, it's not. It's your browser following you. But not if you come back to Firefox. Firefox blocks the trackers automatically, doesn't follow you from site to site, and supports the ad blockers other browsers dropped. Plus, you can switch AI on or off when its intelligence is acting too artificial. And switching? Totally painless. Your bookmarks, passwords, and browsing history come right with you. Come back to Firefox. Visit Firefox.com.

• 1:00:27Speaker 00

  This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.