Ken Rideout’s Win-Or-Die Mindset: Controlling The Variables, Winning His First Ultra, & Why Discomfort is the Price of Admission To Greatness

How do you evolve into an unbreakable champion? Never set limits. Welcome pain. And be ready to die to win. This is the ethos of Ken Rideout, returning to the podcast to arm you with the tools you need to chase huge dreams and transform your life wholesale anytime, and at any age. An absolute force of nature, Ken overcame seemingly insurmountable obstacles—a rough and chaotic childhood and later a battle with opiate addiction—to become one of the world’s pre-eminent master athletes. He consistently takes the podium at prestigious marathons, including a recent age group world champion title at the Chicago Marathon plus wins in the 50+ division of the New York City, Boston, and Tokyo Marathons. This summer Ken debuted his ultra career by not only completing the Gobi March, a grueling 155-mile, self-supported, 7-day stage run across the harsh desert terrain of Mongolia, but outright winning it by over 84 minutes. Today we unpack Ken’s extraordinary Gobi March win, his unique strategy in the race, and what motivates his beast-like drive. We also discuss the mindset tools, discipline, consistency, and humility that fuel his growth and help him get better, faster, and stronger in his 50s. Ken is one of a kind, bullshit-free, and 100% authentically himself. His vulnerability is refreshing. His perseverance is remarkable. And his message is powerful: nothing good happens when you’re comfortable. Show notes + MORE Watch on YouTube Newsletter Sign-Up Today’s Sponsors: Momentous: LiveMomentous.com/RICHROLL Babbel: Babbel.com/RICHROLL On: On.com/richroll AG1: drinkAG1.com/RICHROLL BetterHelp: BetterHelp.com/RICHROLL Peace + Plants, Rich Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

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• 1:04Ken Rideout?

  You can't be afraid to fail. That voice in my head that was like, "Man, this is scary." And the other voice was like, "That's why we're doing it." If you don't put yourself in uncomfortable positions, it's hard to get any growth there because you will fail. Like, if you try to do epic shit, you're gonna fail. The coward and the hero feel the same exact emotion when confronted with a situation. It's just how do you act in response to the fear?

• 1:29Rich Roll?

  If there is one word to describe Ken Riteout, I would say that word is authentic. He is the real deal. He's always unapologetically himself, and he's back today for a glorious round two. Back in August of 2022, Ken, on his first appearance on the podcast, shared tales from his rough Boston upbringing, his journey from prison guard to Wall Street, the opioid addiction that nearly broke him, and his metamorphosis into one of the world's preeminent master athletes. A guy who has posted a 228 marathon at age 50, and a guy who consistently racks up titles at some of the planet's most prestigious races.

• 2:10Rich Roll?

  Including a recent age group world championship title at last month's Chicago Marathon. Today, we go deeper into what motivates his beast-like drive. We talk about the whats and the hows behind his professional approach to training and racing, along with an array of powerful lessons on the mindset, discipline, consistency, and humility that keeps him getting better and faster into his 50s. And we do all of this through Ken recapping his very first ultra experience, the Gobi March, which is this brutal 155-mile race across the Mongolian desert that Ken not only finished, but actually won it. And he

• 2:54Rich Roll?

  won it by over 84 minutes. Ken is extraordinary. His stories are just wild, and his counsel is both inspiring and actionable. So here we go. Round two with Ken Rideout.

• 3:12Rich Roll?

  Good to see you, man.

• 3:13Ken Rideout?

  Good to see you, brother.

• 3:14Rich Roll?

  We talked way too much before this thing started.

• 3:16Ken Rideout?

  That's all right. I have a short memory.

• 3:19Rich Roll?

  Yeah, but let's start off with what's been happening recently, because you just notched your belt with a few interesting experiences, right?

• 3:27Ken Rideout?

  To say the least.

• 3:28Rich Roll?

  Seven days out in the desert in Mongolia doing this Gobi March, your first ultra. I remember when you pinged me and you're like, hey, I'm gonna do this thing. I'm thinking about signing up for this race. And I was like, call me. We gotta talk.

• 3:43Ken Rideout?

  You, I was telling you, guys, you lit a fire under my ass. I had initially told a friend of mine called James Davies, who's like a CEO at Deutsche Bank. I knew he was familiar with like Marathon de Salle and a few ultra events that he knew, we had talked about them before in passing. And I said, yo, you know this race? And he's like, yeah, that would be great. I said, I'm thinking of doing it. Am I crazy? And he said, oh, if you could get top five in that, man, that would be wildly impressive. And immediately I was like, top five? What the fuck is this guy? I'm winning. And I was like, I know it sounds irrational, but there is like... Almost like two voices in my head. There's one that's like trying to like create like self preservation and another one that's like just a little bit louder. That's like we can win

• 4:24Ken Rideout?

  anything we want. So one guy's like, dude, don't do that. You're gonna embarrass us. Please, we don't know what we're doing. I know from Ironman, when you do those longer events, there's just so many things you don't know for the first time. Like when experience counts for so much. I know that. I've never run with a backpack. I've never slept in a tent. I take two showers a day. No shower for seven days. I was like, am I crazy? I but the other voice was like, fuck that. Let's do this. We'll figure it out on the fly. It'll be a real challenge and like, let's get uncomfortable.

• 4:56Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 4:57Ken Rideout?

  And then I and then and then when I text you and you were like, oh, that's a claim many ultra runners. All I heard was, you're not tough enough for that.

• 5:05Rich Roll?

  Oh, that's what you heard?

• 5:06Ken Rideout?

  Yes.

• 5:06Rich Roll?

  That's not what I was saying.

• 5:07Ken Rideout?

  I know.

• 5:08Rich Roll?

  What I was saying, what I said, as I recall, was you gotta toss out the window, everything you think you know about running a race because all the experience that you've had running marathons, obviously, there's value in that. But this is a whole different animal. And, you know, you've got to like, let go of pushing the pace. And it's all about economy and efficiency. And the discipline is is oriented around holding back and choosing your moments and, you know, sort of conserving your energy.

• 5:38Ken Rideout?

  Yeah.

• 5:39Rich Roll?

  Which is, I wouldn't, I wouldn't, I wouldn't think that that is your strong suit.

• 5:42Ken Rideout?

  I did none of that.

• 5:43Rich Roll?

  Yeah. You did not. And then I told you to call House, right?

• 5:46Ken Rideout?

  Yes, yes.

• 5:46Rich Roll?

  Did you, did you speak to him?

• 5:47Ken Rideout?

  I spoke to House. I spoke to Charlie Engel, who won it the first year they held it. And but again, when you said it claimed many ultra runner, I was like, it hasn't claimed me yet. And I was like, I know what you meant. I knew you had the best intentions. But I use that as like motivation. I was like, I signed up as soon as I got that text from you. I was like, I'm in, I'm doing it. And then I talked to Charlie and it's funny, in hindsight, he was like, no, you don't really need poles. You don't really need gaiters for your shoes. I needed everything. I mean, at one point, we were going up a mountain on the first stage and the two kids who were competitive with me, an Israeli and a Swiss athlete, they blew past me with poles and left me like for dead. And I was hands on knees trying to get up like a, you know, like a black diamond ski slope. And it wasn't

• 6:31Ken Rideout?

  on a trail. It was just up the side of a mountain. It was so crazy. Every day I felt like asking someone like, how did you guys get liability insurance? This is the most dangerous thing I've ever done by far.

• 6:42Rich Roll?

  Hmm. I remember thinking that when I did Otilo and we're out in open water and the sea is pitching, you know, seven foot swells and the boats are going like this. I was like, this race would never happen in the United States.

• 6:53Ken Rideout?

  No.

• 6:54Rich Roll?

  There's no way, right? What did, uh, it's interesting. Why did Charlie tell you not to have poles? You would think that he would have had experience to say, yeah.

• 7:03Ken Rideout?

  I mean, I guess in hindsight I could make a case for not having them, but I think I would have been better off with them. But still, it wasn't like, obviously it wasn't detrimental. But after the first day, so back to your point about being patient.

• 7:18Ken Rideout?

  First day we, so you, you want me to like walk through as quickly like this?

• 7:21Rich Roll?

  Yeah, well, let's just, let's just explain what the race is.

• 7:24Ken Rideout?

  Sure.

• 7:24Rich Roll?

  Um, the Gobi March, seven days, seven stages, 155 miles. How did it break down?

• 7:31Ken Rideout?

  So it was like, um, there was a, there was a rest day in there because on the 50 mile day, people take more than 24 hours. So it was, um, 21 miles, 28, 24, 50 on the Wednesday, but then you don't go again till Friday. Which that was one of the hardest parts for me, like finishing Wednesday at 5:00 PM and not racing again till Friday morning, like hanging out in the camp with freeze dried food, like starving. I was burning 10,000 calories a day and eating 2,500 every single day.

• 8:00Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm.

• 8:01Ken Rideout?

  But in a weird way, my, and Charlie had mentioned this, he's like, you'll get stronger as the week goes by. Just like, have you ever noticed that like if you go to a cycling training camp, by the end you're a beast.

• 8:11Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 8:11Ken Rideout?

  And like second or third day, you're like, I'm never going to be able to finish this. But your body is so fricking resilient that it just, it adapted, adjusted to the food. It adjusted to everything and like everything was like functioning regularly, except my sleep was just fucking terrible.

• 8:27Rich Roll?

  Hmm.

• 8:28Ken Rideout?

  Sleeping on the grounds on a, a thin mat with a sleeping bag. Oh. I got two hours of sleep the night after the 50 mile stage and three hours the following night. I just could not sleep. But during the 50 mile stage, I had taken a ton of caffeinated, um, hydration tablets that I picked up from someone who dropped out. So I was just way too much. I don't, I don't metabolize caffeine well, but.

• 8:50Rich Roll?

  Yeah, you're, you're charged up enough.

• 8:53Ken Rideout?

  To say the least.

• 8:54Rich Roll?

  So then after that 50, you have that day off and then you have, I think it's a marathon and then it ends with a five miler.

• 9:00Ken Rideout?

  Yeah. So, so. I'll I'll quickly walk through like the progression. So you get in, I get into Mongolia. Let's say on Friday, Saturday, they drive us out into the desert and we camp that night. And um, I had brought, they said you could bring a one man tent if you wanted. So I was like, yeah, I don't want to sleep in a communal tent. I'll bring a, I'll bring a one man tent. Again, not knowing anything. I get the smallest tent you can get, like a bicycle tent that you can take on a bike trip. And I get there and the people in the one man tents are in tents that look like they could camp on Everest. And I'm like, this, this tent practically has two rooms in it. Like I've got a tent that like I can barely fit in. So before the thing started, I asked the organizers, I basically was like, oh, one of my tent poles got bent in transit. Is there any chance I could

• 9:42Ken Rideout?

  jump into one of these communal tents? And she was like, yeah, there's a tent you can get in that one. And the first night, dude, it pours, it's raining sideways. I'm like, oh my God, the tent's gonna blow away. I don't, I'm, I'm having an anxiety attack. I don't know anyone. I'm like, I feel like an outsider. It's very clicky. Everyone knows each other. They weren't unfriendly, but no one was like overly friendly to me whatsoever. And before I had gotten there, the organizer was like, oh my God. I had sent her some articles about my background and stuff. So she let me in with like four weeks to go. And uh, she's like, I'll put this all in your bio. I said, I'd rather not. Just, I don't want anything in my bio. I don't want anyone to know I'm coming. I just kinda wanted to creep up on them.

• 10:19Rich Roll?

  Playing mind games.

• 10:20Ken Rideout?

  Yeah, from the beginning. So uh, yeah, so we wake up and we go the first day and sure enough, two, three guys take it out super hard. And I'm like, holy shit, this is gonna be the pace? I figured I'm, I'm gonna win or die trying. So I'm just gonna stay with the leaders. I'm not gonna lead, but I'm gonna stay with them. And uh, funny because there was a British kid who was just frigging flying. And uh, he ended up not finishing. And we're running, I'm like, yo, are you a marathon runner? He's like, I haven't run a marathon, but I run half marathons. I'm like, oh, what's your P R? He's like, one oh seven. I'm like, oh, for Christ's sake, this guy can run. So, um.

• 10:56Rich Roll?

  Yeah, but, but to my earlier point, this, you know, how relevant is that in a seven day race?

• 11:01Ken Rideout?

  Clearly not at all because he didn't survive. He was out after like two or three days.

• 11:05Rich Roll?

  That's wild. What was the training like leading up to it? Did you just stick to your 10 miles a day routine? And just went into it?

• 11:12Ken Rideout?

  For four weeks, I, um, I, I cycled through maybe, um, four or five different backpacks until I found one that wouldn't like burn holes in my back. When the chafing on my back and my hips in my waist was, it was unbearable. Unbearable, like bleeding every day. And, um.

• 11:29Rich Roll?

  Well, it's good that you tested that out ahead of time. Instead of just showed up with a backpack. And just to be clear, self-supported means you're carrying all your food in your backpack. Are you carrying your tents also? Like everything that you need?

• 11:41Ken Rideout?

  No, they, the only thing that they would transport for you, the tent thing, the, the tent thing, which I didn't end up using was new because of COVID. They gave people the option if you didn't want to be in a communal tent in the last two years and they've just kept it. So there was only like five or 10 people that had a single man tent. But you could also, because, because of COVID, they, they wanted all the doors to stay open so they would allow you to send a supplemental backpack. So of course I hear this and like, all I'm thinking is like strategy, right? And how can I win? So she tells me this, I go, so let me get this straight. If I carry like, you had to have a backpack, a sleeping bag that went down to 32 degrees or zero Celsius. So that had to be rated down there. So I got a high tech like Cedar Summit sleeping bag.

• 12:23Ken Rideout?

  But I said, for the supplemental, like hypothetically, if I had the one that went down to 50 below, that was super thick, like a massive camping sleeping bag. She's like, yeah, whatever you want. So that's what I got. So I would lay that down and sleep on top of that with my other sleeping bags. So that kind of provided some pat and I had an inflatable like little cushion thing that I, but my backpack at the beginning without water weighed 21 pounds. And the other, the Swiss guy who was like the main competition, his backpack at the start weighed like 14 pounds.

• 12:52Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 12:53Ken Rideout?

  And it was streamlined and he had won like three of these races. And dude, it was funny. We were sitting there the day before I was sitting with my friend Scott DeRou, who's the president of Equinox, who's originally told me about the race, that he was doing the race. And, um, I had never met him in person, just via email and, uh. We're sitting there and a photographer from the race sits down with us in Mongolia at this hotel we're at and he's like, oh. I said, hey, are there any guys here who have won before? He's like, oh, Reinhold so and so's here from Switzerland. He's won like three of them. He's unbelievable. I was like, oh, okay. And the guy doesn't know me. I don't know him. So I'm like, all right, Reinhold's the guy. He's going down. So in my mind, I'm like, I'm killing this guy.

• 13:33Rich Roll?

  Uh huh.

• 13:34Ken Rideout?

  So uh, he's got everything dialed. I mean, he's, he's flawless. His, he, all his shit is perfect, like special forces. He's like special forces and I'm like the guy from Stripes, the movie Stripes, just like completely disheveled in hindsight.

• 13:48Rich Roll?

  But you got the unknown factor.

• 13:49Ken Rideout?

  Yes.

• 13:49Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Um, it, you know, it's, it's interesting in thinking about preparing for this. You tested out the backpacks, but ideally I would imagine, you know, it probably would have been good to do some rucking on loose sand or go to sand dunes and you know, all that kind of stuff. You didn't do any of that.

• 14:05Ken Rideout?

  I tested out a bunch of shoes. I went through maybe four or five pairs of shoes because the nice thing is with the consistency of the training that I've done. When I add on, like if I try a new pair of shoes and run 10 or 15 miles, you know by the end if something's even slightly amiss. So I tried a few, got a few blisters here and there, knew what to do. And then uh, Hoka came through and actually sent me some great like Speed Goats and um, another model that I can't think of, like a top trail shoe, but not the Speed Goat. And that's the one that I went with. So they sent me two of those. But you know, with trail shoes, the bottom is so hard if you're running on um, concrete. It's almost counterproductive. It like hurts your feet. And I was only running on pavement. Just, that's just the route that I had in Nashville.

• 14:45Ken Rideout?

  And uh, so yeah, I had no sand, no trails, but I just figured like, neither does anyone else. Like I have more consistency and, and I, I've, I've run every single day for so many years that if we all have to recover the next day. I think, I bet that I can recover quicker than them.

• 15:03Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm.

• 15:03Ken Rideout?

  That was my, like, assumption. And that ended up playing out. But I didn't, I wasn't confident that it would. I was just praying that it would.

• 15:11Rich Roll?

  So, the strategy being, stick with the leaders, but remain just behind them, like you're, like you're a lion tracker or something, right? At some point, though, is there, like, an inflection point where you make a move, or what changes?

• 15:27Ken Rideout?

  So, the first day we're all together and with, like, five miles to go, we get to, like, the side of a mountain, and it's just up, straight up. And those, the two, the Swiss guy and the Israeli guy get away from me. And I'm like, holy shit. And when we get to the top, we're traversing across the side of a ridgeline, but we're not on the top of it, we're on the side. We're like, if you have a misstep, I'm, I'm not exaggerating, if you have a misstep, you're gonna fall down the mountain. And this pack is so heavy, like, if you get out of balance, you're going down. So, we get, I get over that, they, they're off the front, like, now they're, like, a mile ahead of me. And with maybe a mi- two mile or two miles to go, um, a really cool Italian journalist called Filippo Rossi.

• 16:07Ken Rideout?

  He's a huge Rich Roll fan. There was two Italians there, Filippo and Giuseppe. They loved you. They were like, call Rich Roll, call Rich Roll. I'm like, we don't have reception, and I would never do that. So.

• 16:18Rich Roll?

  Shout out to those guys.

• 16:19Ken Rideout?

  Shout out to the Italian journalist. And, um, so, he runs past me, and I'm like, God, I'm, I'm like, oh my God, I'll be lucky just to be in the top five, like James said. Holy shit, I'm, I'm nervous now. Do we get to, like, with less than a mile to go, we go through this, like, an old, a half-dried-up river, but it's, like, ankle-deep mud. I fall down in the mud, I'm like, I am a buffoon. I, I feel so stupid. I've been blown out, I'm covered in mud. And I limp in, and I got the vibe from those guys, 'cause now, like, you know, we've been, we, we were talking during the, during the stage, and we had the morning, and I think that people are starting to recognize that, like, I'm, you know, I'm someone to be, uh, aware of.

• 17:02Ken Rideout?

  And I get the vibe that they're kinda like, yeah, that we, we taught him a lesson, kind of. And if that isn't the vibe, that's what I'm telling myself. These guys think they got me on the ropes. But I'm like, alright, let's see what happens tomorrow. I'm gonna be much more conservative. So the next day is 28 miles longest I've ever run. And I just stay conservative and I stay they the two the Swiss and Israeli guy get off the front. But I can see them. And we get to a couple of hills. I get back on them. I'm not pushing in slowly and steadily. I just like pulled away from them without trying. I just stayed steady. And with like 10 K to go, I can't even see them behind me. I'm blowing them out. And I slip and fall in the strap on my backpack where it attaches to the pack down at the bottom.

• 17:46Ken Rideout?

  Rips off the backpacks, just rips. And I fall down and I bust my elbow open unbeknownst to me. So I get up in a in a panic and I'm running, holding this strap with this pack, which is super heavy. And my elbow is pouring blood, but I don't know. I'm just cover. I'm drenched in sweat. I'm caked in salt. And I'm running in the desert, right? And so I'm wiping the blood, which I think is sweat and I'm touching my face and I'm when I finished, I'm covered in blood. And they're like, oh, my God, what's wrong? I'm like, they go, what's wrong? I'm like, yeah, look, my frigging backpack broke. And they're like, no, no, no, you're bleeding everywhere. I'm like, no, I'm not bleeding. And they're like, no, you're covered in blood. I'm like, I'm definitely not bleeding. And I'm like, oh, my elbow is bleeding. Anyway, I cleaned it all up.

• 18:30Rich Roll?

  That's like some Apocalypse Now shit, like Alien versus Predator.

• 18:35Ken Rideout?

  Dude, it was, but then I was like.

• 18:37Rich Roll?

  So what do you make of that, though? Is that the recovery kicking in, your ability to bounce back the next day? Like those guys made, you know, put in a big effort the day before.

• 18:46Ken Rideout?

  I think they put in too big.

• 18:47Rich Roll?

  They couldn't sustain it.

• 18:48Ken Rideout?

  Yeah, they put in too big, but but they were they were they weren't done like. The Swiss guy wasn't done. Everyone else lost time every day. But the Swiss guy was like a real athlete, like he was. He was like a mountaineer. So like on the on the climbs and the descents, he was super efficient, like real good. So that was day two. Day three starts with, I am not shitting you, like rock climbing, like hands and knees climbing up rocks, dangerous, like I'm like, how is everyone gonna get up this thing? There's no way. And the Swiss guy within the first mile, he's gone. I can't even see him. I managed to fix my bag with a, I took a scalpel from the doctor, poked some holes in it and put zip ties through and zip tied it onto the bag.

• 19:29Ken Rideout?

  Three miles into stage three, they burst off, so I, it was such a disaster, but it was like a crisis management. I took out the knife that I was forced to carry, cut the bag, pulled the strap through, the thick part that goes down your chest, and I pulled it through and tied a knot and it held miraculously. And then after that stage, someone who dropped out gave me their backpack and they took mine. So about fifteen miles into that, this is a twenty-four mile stage, about fifteen miles in, we get to the sand dunes. And I'm talking like, just imagine the loosest sandy beach you've ever been to, and you've got like six miles to go and it's hills. So at one point, there's probably two hundred yards, like a black diamond ski slope, straight

• 20:11Ken Rideout?

  up, on my hands and knees, like in, in the sand, like Navy SEAL stuff.

• 20:16Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 20:17Ken Rideout?

  Buried in sand.

• 20:18Rich Roll?

  Your ten miles a day is not preparing you for something like that.

• 20:21Ken Rideout?

  Nothing.

• 20:22Rich Roll?

  Like all the full body stuff.

• 20:23Ken Rideout?

  Dude, like ten people dropped out at that sand dune, and they could only rescue them with camels. And the camel couldn't get up that sand dune, so if you were up, you had to slide back down because the camel couldn't get up.

• 20:32Rich Roll?

  Wow.

• 20:33Ken Rideout?

  So I get up to the top of it, the Swiss guy's off the front, I can't see them behind me, and I'm like, I'm, sand is everywhere, so much so that when I get out of the sand dune portion, I have to take off my shoes and socks and get this sand though, because it's like sandpaper. And I made some funny videos, I showed you guys that I'm gonna give them if they want to put into the video.

• 20:50Rich Roll?

  Yeah, they're real funny.

• 20:51Ken Rideout?

  Where I'm talking to the camera like, I'm in fucking hell. Uh, yeah, we're fucking roughing it. This is adventure racing, apparently, my first and last one. That looks nice. About to piss down rain on our whole camp. I'm gonna die. This is, I can't believe I did this, I'm never doing this again. So anyway, I lost like four minutes, so at that point, I'm twelve minutes down, but I'm in second by thirty minutes. And then the next day is the fifty mile stage, and that's when like, the race got broken open, and when I like basically killed the guy and then saved his life.

• 21:27Rich Roll?

  Hmm, is that because it was less technical that day? Or why were you able to gap him on that day when you were behind the day before?

• 21:35Ken Rideout?

  Good question. So this day was just like slow and steady wins the race, it was just constant undulation over fields and pastures and up and down monstrous hills, and then the steeps were just as hard as the up hills, so. About 12 or 15 miles in, I'm listening to music in one AirPod and just to keep my mind busy. And I ran next to the Swiss guys with us, the three of us. We always start together, but the Swiss guy can tends to get dropped like

• 22:02Ken Rideout?

  a third to halfway through. So I run next to him and I was like, hey, Dudu, did I tell you that I fucking never get tired? I feel so good today. Like, I think we might be able to break a record. Within one mile, I look back and he's got his poles out walking. So That was the moment. That was when the Israeli guy go, now it's just me and the leader. And we're together from 15 to 30 and we're working together. At this point, like there's so much camaraderie now that I've almost abandoned racing him and I'm like, let's just get through this together. We'll race another day because this is like, this is challenging. We're in the desert, 50 miles. The checkpoints are like six to nine miles apart, which is a long way. So you've got to get a shitload of water, which is heavy.

• 22:45Ken Rideout?

  And um, you know, we're getting through it. So we're walking the up hills. We're pushing the down hills. We're pushing the flats. And around mile 30, we hit a checkpoint and there's one more checkpoint around 43, maybe. They were super spread out. Maybe it was 35. So after that checkpoint, we come out of there in a little village. And we're running a flat and he's like, I gotta walk for a minute. And I'm like, okay, I'm gonna walk with them. Like, we're alone in the desert. There's like an element of like danger too. So it's not just like, I'm gonna step on your neck now, like a marathon. So I'm like, all right, I'll walk with you. Let's, let's go. Let's, I said, let's walk to one flag. We'll run to two and let's just see if we can get some life back. So then he's like, man, I'm low on water. I don't fucking, where's that checkpoint? And he's deteriorating fast.

• 23:25Ken Rideout?

  So now I'm giving him my water. I'm pouring water on his head. I'm like, look, mom, man, just like, get to that next checkpoint and you'll be good. You take a rest. So then very quickly, he's like, I gotta sit down. And I'm like, dude, don't sit, please don't sit down. Give me your backpack. I'll, I'll carry it. And he's like, no, no, no, I can't let you do it. I'll get disqualified. I'm like, you wanna get disqualified or you wanna die? Like, we're in no man's land and there's no support vehicles. And then, so we're going through this. He sits down. I'm trying to shade him with my body. I'm giving him all my water. And then a support vehicle eventually comes by. I was so pissed off. I was like, dude, what the fuck, man? Someone's gonna die out here. Like, what are you guys doing? The checkpoints are so far away. A fucking camel can't make it that far without water.

• 24:07Ken Rideout?

  So they come and they get him. So they're tending to him and I take off dude from four. I think they got him around forty three miles. I put my head down and drilled it from forty three to fifty. Fastest seven miles of the whole race, I think I ran and got in there right at like five P M. We started at eight, so I think was that nine hours? And that's where I just blew it open. At that point, I had like an eighty minute lead.

• 24:29Rich Roll?

  And then you get a little bit of a rest. You're staring at twenty six the next day and you're like, well, that's my jam.

• 24:36Ken Rideout?

  Yeah, I was like, hey, ninety minutes, no one's beating me. Like at this point now, my confidence was through the roof. I'm like, no one's beating me. I'm not giving away any stages. I'm winning everything.

• 24:45Rich Roll?

  So you end up winning this race by ninety minutes.

• 24:48Ken Rideout?

  Yes.

• 24:48Rich Roll?

  Right? First ever ultra. First of all, what was the sort of response to that amongst this, you know, kind of clicky ultra trail community of people who'd never heard of you before with the blank bio?

• 25:02Ken Rideout?

  The people that by the end, everyone's super supportive because you're in it for a week together. But it was like, probably like a little bit mixed emotions, like, damn it, this guy came in and beat us all at our own game. A little bit. It wasn't like, you know, when they were giving out the awards, for example, the the race director, the woman's like, everyone comes up, big hug. Oh, great. I come up. It's like cold hand shaking. Congratulations. So I was like, all right, cool. But the response from our community and in a weird way, like I genuinely felt this the whole time I was there. Like I felt a sense of community with even people like yourself, Rob Moore, my partner Teddy Atlas. Like I think about all these things.

• 25:44Ken Rideout?

  And again, I was telling you guys earlier, a lot of times, the reality of a situation doesn't really matter. The only reality that matters is your reality, the story you tell yourself. So I'm telling myself, yeah, I'm representing my people here, all the people that I've like know and trained with and have trained with over the years and have raced with and the people that I'm friends with. I'm like, I'm representing all of them. A win for one, a win for one of us is a win for all of us. I really believe that and felt that. Because I know when Dez Linden won the Boston Marathon, like I was crying. I was like, oh, my God, we did it. I know that.

• 26:18Rich Roll?

  Yeah, cuz she's your girl.

• 26:19Ken Rideout?

  Yeah, but I was like, so when I won, I was like, yeah, man, I did it. I like, in a weird way, I felt like I did this. It was a reflection of everyone. I'm not, I'm just one person, but I'm like a product of the people that I'm around all the time. And I'm a product of the work that I've done with these people and um, but no one more so than my family. My family has seen me do like win races and, and, and do stuff that they're proud of, but nothing like this.

• 26:45Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 26:45Ken Rideout?

  The response that they got and that they gave me was overwhelming, like moved me to tears. Like I came home, there was signs all over the house. The kids were just like, plus the kids are getting older. I think they realized the like magnitude and like how shocking it was to others and to myself like, oh my God, you, I did this. Like, I still can't believe it.

• 27:04Rich Roll?

  Wild.

• 27:04Ken Rideout?

  But so that part was just crazy. Like as an example, my wife never posts anything about me on, on Facebook or anything. We're not the type to be like, yeah, look at, you know, so proud of my partner. We just don't do that. And just, just because we know how we feel about each other. But on this one, she posted a big thing on Facebook, like I'm so proud of my husband. And I know that she must have been like really moved to post that. So it was like, it was moving. It was, man, I was like, it was beautiful.

• 27:30Rich Roll?

  I mean, congrats. It's really quite something that you went out there and conquered that thing on your first time out. It's unbelievable.

• 27:37Ken Rideout?

  It's, it's just, I was telling you guys, I was like, I feel like I'm talking about a third person. Like I can't believe that guy did that. I can't believe I did it. I'm so lucky. I'm so thankful and just it all paid off.

• 27:50Rich Roll?

  So I want to get into the mindset a little bit. When you're in those low moments and you're summoning, you know, that, that like urgency or that competitive spirit that you have within you, or you're thinking about your community and you know, how you're going to, you know, sort of um, represent them adequately to the best of your ability. Like, how do you stay present with that? Or what are some of the tools that you tap into to get you through those low moments? Because in an ultra, in a seven day thing, you're gonna have high highs, you're gonna feel good, you're gonna feel like shit. You know, if you feel like shit, if you stick with it, that'll pass, you'll start to feel good again. But how do you weather those and, you know, really stay focused on the larger goal that you're trying to achieve?

• 28:33Ken Rideout?

  Yeah, no, that's a great question. And, and a lot of times we hear people talk about mindset and all this kind of stuff that can kind of sound cliche on the surface unless you really like. Dig deep into it and, and I sincerely believe that if you don't put yourself in uncomfortable positions, whether it's starting a business, learning an instrument, it doesn't have to be running, but if you never do anything uncomfortable, it's hard to get a lot, to get any growth there because the pressure's not on. I need a little bit of pressure and, and, and kind of scrutiny to kind of dig deep. And I was like, this, I couldn't think of something more uncomfortable. Any one day event, cool, I can show up and gut my way through it. Seven days of camping and

• 29:18Ken Rideout?

  really having to manage the food and manage to like my, like be responsible for my system, my sleep system and, and everything associated with it was like incredibly intimidating and uncomfortable, but that's why I did it. I was like so friggin scared that when I heard about the event, there was, like I said, that voice in my head that was like, man, this is scary. And the other voice was like, that's why we're doing it. And I know it's like, I, I don't want to sound cliche or like it's hyperbole, but it's the truth. I was like, holy shit, that's scary. Fuck it, let's do it. Cause if you don't like, okay, I won, but if I didn't show up and try, I definitely wouldn't win. So it was kind of like, who knows? I mean, who knows? Maybe if I

• 30:02Ken Rideout?

  show up and do Leadville, maybe I can win that. Can I win Badwater? The one thing's for sure. If you don't get on the start line, no one, you can't, no one's gonna win.

• 30:11Rich Roll?

  Are you gonna make a pronouncement right now about Leadville?

• 30:14Ken Rideout?

  I'm gonna say that.

• 30:14Rich Roll?

  Western states.

• 30:15Ken Rideout?

  I'm gonna say.

• 30:16Rich Roll?

  Badwater.

• 30:16Ken Rideout?

  I'm gonna say that.

• 30:17Rich Roll?

  You got your boy Charlie on speed dial for your Badwater prep. You might have to run a little bit more than 10 miles a day to get ready for that one.

• 30:24Ken Rideout?

  I don't know.

• 30:28Rich Roll?

  You know, it's interesting is it's one thing to go from marathoning and elite marathoning at the level at which you do it to step into an ultra. Most people would start out with a 50K or a 50 miler. Um, at a minimum, they would enter a race in which you have crew support.

• 30:49Rich Roll?

  They're feeding you, they're taking care of you, they're reading the signs and you're always sort of being held by a group of people who can provide, you know, as much kind of morale support as nutritional support. But you went, you sidestepped all of that, did a multi-day race, your head's not hitting the pillow at home after that thing each night. And all the mental space that you have to devote through the logistics, to the food, to all the tiny, I mean, this is one of the things we talked about when we talked, like, it's these tiny little things that are easy to forget about that can derail you. You get one blister in the wrong place and like, you're done because you didn't, you know, make sure that you put your socks on right, or you didn't tape your toes, or

• 31:31Rich Roll?

  whatever it is. And it's just you and you. You got no one there to remind you about any of that kind of stuff. So how much of that experience was devoted to, you know, kind of the mental aspects of, of the logistics, right? Because when you're running a marathon, it's like, just, you just, you got this, your tunnel vision on getting to that finish line, and you don't really have to worry about much else. There's aid stations, et cetera. But here, you've got all these tactics that are brand new to you, that can sort of rob you of the mental energy that you would normally devote to just performance.

• 32:07Ken Rideout?

  That's exactly why I did it. I know I can show up and be competitive in a 50K or 50 mile. I know I can. And maybe someone listens like, fuck this guy, he can't do it. I know I can be competitive. I didn't know what I could do here. And I had spent so long since I felt nervous about attempting something. I always feel nervous about hitting my goals, but to feel nervous about actually being able to complete the event was a new level of nerves. I mean, I was mad anxiety. And to your point, anything could happen. Dude, every day at the end of these stages, people would be in the medical tent, their feet looked like they walked on hot coals. And I couldn't help but to walk over and be like, dude, what the fuck? Have you done any training? How can your feet be like that

• 32:49Ken Rideout?

  after the second day? Like, how much running have you done? I mean, if you've been running, you shouldn't have blistered, like, your feet are, not blisters, dude, skin gone, feet, like, Their feet are like

• 33:00Rich Roll?

  And all that kinda stuff.

• 33:01Ken Rideout?

  Everything. I I'd never seen

• 33:02Rich Roll?

  You didn't have any of those problems?

• 33:03Ken Rideout?

  I had a couple of small blisters that were

• 33:05Rich Roll?

  And even with the gaiters, you were able to keep the sand out of your

• 33:08Ken Rideout?

  No.

• 33:09Rich Roll?

  Shoes and all that kinda stuff.

• 33:10Ken Rideout?

  Sand would pour in and anytime it got too heavy, I'd just have to sit down and pour it out quickly. But the whole time that I did this, I kept that like tortoise and the hare mentality where I'm like, I'm keeping moving. I'm never stopping. I'm just, if I have to walk, I'll walk, lower my heart rate and then I'll jog. And then it, the backpack was such a variable that I hadn't considered. I mean, it tore the shit out of my body. I mean, every day I was like covered in road rash, like basically. But to your point, there's a lot of mental energy that's spent on making sure you're eating right. Am I getting enough calories? Do I have enough like meal replacement bars to eat during the, during the stage? Cause afterwards, you know, you're eating freeze dried food, pretty, pretty standard.

• 33:51Ken Rideout?

  You're just hungry a lot and I was really focusing on hydration and fueling during the stage. And then afterwards I was like, fuck it, I'm hungry. I'll, I'll survive. Like it's, it's not forever. And I just kept, the other thing that I kept telling myself that, that sincerely worked, like we talk about mindset again, and it's easy to gloss over it, but I kept reminding myself that I have the best life in the world. I'm the luckiest guy in the world. I have the fucking nicest kids. I, I've created everything that I've ever wanted of myself. I'm lucky. I, I'm so grateful. And I just kept saying, this is temporary. You can take the easy way here and, and look for any excuse to get out of here.

• 34:31Ken Rideout?

  My bag ripped, my elbows hurt, I've got a blister like, or you can dig deep and it'll be, you'll be so much happier when you get home and this is behind you. And the other thing I would remind myself when it would get really hard and really hot, I would say, yo, special forces guys are doing this every single day, like it's their job, cause it is. And someone's trying to kill them while they're doing it. So I'm like, are you kidding me? Someone's gonna save me if I drop dead out here or if I faint. We're good. And I would just literally anytime I got that in that negative space, I'd be like, th- th- this is easy. In the grand scheme of life. Compared to what some people have been through and the level of persecution, I'm like, so I have to cover 28 miles or 50 miles today? Like, this isn't, this isn't challenging.

• 35:14Ken Rideout?

  I voluntarily, so I paid for this.

• 35:17Rich Roll?

  Yeah, you volunteered for it. Yeah, you didn't, you're not being forced to do this.

• 35:19Ken Rideout?

  Exactly.

• 35:20Rich Roll?

  Right? Um, which brings me to this thought that I think we talked a little bit about the first time, which is this unique sort of combination of, of different sensibilities that you have. Uh, on the one hand, you have this incredible certainty. Like, you're like, I'm gonna win. I know I'm gonna win. You, you just, you go into these races with a level of self-confidence and belief in your own capacity and ability to outmatch the best of them. But on the other hand, you also have this, this really genuine humility. Like, you are in awe of the elites. Like, the way that you talk about Des Linden or the other elite marathoners or...

• 36:02Ken Rideout?

  Or Cam Worf.

• 36:02Rich Roll?

  Yeah, these, yeah, Cam, our boy Cam, who just went up on the pod.

• 36:05Ken Rideout?

  Love it.

• 36:06Rich Roll?

  Um, yeah, it's like you have a reverence and a respect for the level at which they execute their craft. Um, and that's a unique, uh, combination because usually somebody who holds that kind of reverence doesn't have that level of self-confidence and certainty that you have. So how do you, like, what is that mix all about?

• 36:27Ken Rideout?

  Well, I think that I'm a realist. Like, I know the difference between me and professional runners is far greater than the difference between me and the next, like, level of amateur athletes. It's, it's, it's massive. They're on a pedestal. They're like, miles ahead. This is their job. This is my hobby. And I love being the best that I can be, but I'm also very aware of the differences between the elites and then the, like, decent age group runners. Like, at the Bear Mile that I did in Chicago, we'll talk about in a minute, I won the, like, quote unquote, celebrity heat.

• 37:01Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I didn't know until I read about it. I thought you won the whole thing and then I read the article on outside. He's like, oh, he didn't win the whole thing.

• 37:07Ken Rideout?

  No.

• 37:07Rich Roll?

  He ran like 650 or something. Like the guy who won it ran 430.

• 37:11Ken Rideout?

  And the guy who won it sent me a beautiful DM afterwards and I almost glossed over and then I looked back and I was like, oh my God, that's the guy who won. I'm like, dude, congratulations. And he writes back, dude, you killed it. You're a legend. I said, legend? I said, you're a real runner. I'm like the tallest short person. And he's like, no, no, no. Everyone who runs is a real runner. But he just couldn't have been a nice guy. But that was a perfect example of how how I think about it is like, I'm the tallest short person and these guys are like the killers. I mean, but I will say, I only ran 650. I wasn't challenged. I was drinking out of a can. I do think, and it was the first time I'd done-

• 37:45Rich Roll?

  Athletic brewing, right? It was, it was an NA beer.

• 37:48Ken Rideout?

  But I will say that knowing what I know now, whether it was real beer or NA, like I know that I could be closer to six minutes with a little bit of practice. And again, that not, wouldn't have been threatening anyone, but I was like, this was, the drink and the beer part was harder, but the running was easier than I thought it would be. After 200 meters, halfway around the track, you start to like, the, the, the high, the carbonation comes up and you're like into a groove. But then as soon as you get into the groove, you're like, oh my God, I gotta chug another beer. So.

• 38:16Rich Roll?

  So it was the national championships of the beer mile, right?

• 38:19Ken Rideout?

  It was the beer mile world championships in Chicago, sponsored by Athletic Brewing, who sponsored me for the Gobi race. Great guys. Awesome guys. And they invited me out there to do that. So I raced Neve Schulman, who's a good friend of mine.

• 38:34Rich Roll?

  I've never met Neve, but I know who he is.

• 38:36Ken Rideout?

  Shark Tank.

• 38:37Rich Roll?

  No, Catfish. He's Casey's boy.

• 38:39Ken Rideout?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's how I met Casey. Through Casey Nice, that through Neve. So Carl and I-

• 38:45Rich Roll?

  And he's a really good runner.

• 38:46Ken Rideout?

  Really good.

• 38:47Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 38:48Ken Rideout?

  Uh, Carl and Isles, who's like the fastest rugby player in the world, two-time Olympian. This guy ran like a 47, 400. In, in, when he was competing in track, like elite, elite sprints or like 10, 1, 700. Like elite. So I was like, this guy's gonna blow me out. And I walk under the tent where the where the before the event. And he's like, oh, here he comes. He has the champs guy's gonna kill everyone. I'm like, is he talking about me? This is like a real athlete. This guy's gonna kill me. And and Cynthia, Cynthia from NFL Networks, she does this. She's a statistician at NFL Networks and Darren Rovell, the business reporter, sports business reporter and Francis Ellis from Barstool Sports, who's hilarious, really funny guy, went to Harvard. And yeah,

• 39:33Ken Rideout?

  they just it wasn't very competitive, but it was a fun time. The people couldn't have been nicer. It was like, it was such a nice break after the Gobi race to go there and just like, the people were so kind to me. I was so, I never felt so much gratitude. And my wife came with me. First time she's ever come to any race. We got a babysitter. She came and she was just like, wow, a lot of people there knew who you were. I was like, it's crazy, isn't it? Like, I can't believe it.

• 39:59Rich Roll?

  Well, you're getting a lot. You're getting a lot of ink lately, buddy. Wall Street Journal, New York Times. You're having a moment.

• 40:06Ken Rideout?

  It's crazy, isn't it? The craziest thing of all that, my friend Nate Checket's at Roan Apparel, he introduced me to a dude named Brent Montgomery, who I've become very good friends with. And Brent is the head of Wheelhouse Productions, big production company. They produce alone Duck Dynasty, Pawn Stars, Intervention, like, they're legit. They have some huge TV shows. And we're working on a couple TV show concepts right now, in conjunction with a couple networks that and we're like, right on the finish line. And if one of them gets done, man, I might be hosting a prime time network TV show.

• 40:38Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's crazy. You shared with me a little bit about that. Are you allowed to talk about what those concepts are?

• 40:43Ken Rideout?

  Just about what I've just said.

• 40:45Rich Roll?

  So, you know, coming to television set soon.

• 40:48Ken Rideout?

  Yeah.

• 40:48Rich Roll?

  And ride out.

• 40:49Ken Rideout?

  Along the lines of prison.

• 40:51Rich Roll?

  It sounds like it's it's something you were born to do.

• 40:54Ken Rideout?

  It's it's like a dream come true. If it gets made, it would be too good to be true. I don't know that if my body could handle so much gratitude.

• 41:00Rich Roll?

  Wow. In reflecting, now it's been, what has it been like, three or four weeks since the Gobi thing?

• 41:07Ken Rideout?

  Two weeks.

• 41:08Rich Roll?

  Two. It's only been two weeks. Wow. Thinking back on that experience, what did you learn about not just yourself, but also about preparing for and running an ultra that you wish you knew going into it?

• 41:28Ken Rideout?

  The things that I wish I knew were just small technical like technical aspects about how to get lighter, how to be a little bit more proficient with the pack.

• 41:38Ken Rideout?

  But honestly, I would say, like I said earlier, like until you show up and try something, you just don't know. A lot of people, I think that there are a lot of people out there that can do a lot of things, but they don't have the guts to get on the start line. And it does take a lot of guts to commit to something like that. I mean, dude, even flying, imagine you're on like a 20 hour flight to Korea and the whole time I'm like, what am I doing? There isn't a single ounce of happiness the whole time. It's just dread. Like, and I was like, I have to get out of this mindset, but I was also like, okay, as soon as this thing starts, we'll start to get into a rhythm, but it was like super nervous, anxious feeling of just, let's just start, let's just start. It's like, you know, showing up at the Boston Marathon, three hours before the race starts, you're like, just shoot the gun, let's do this.

• 42:22Ken Rideout?

  I don't like the anticipation.

• 42:26Ken Rideout?

  By contrast, the flight home, I was on cloud nine. I was like, oh, I'm so happy. I did it. I can't believe it.

• 42:31Rich Roll?

  I mean, you went into it with a, with a level of confidence and certitude that at a minimum, you were going to complete this thing.

• 42:38Ken Rideout?

  Hundred percent.

• 42:38Rich Roll?

  But when I look at it, I think what I take from your experience, making that leap from marathoning into a multi-day race, is proof positive that we're all capable of so much more than we allow ourselves to believe. And, and you fertilized a little seed of belief and then you tested yourself at a, at a, at a, at an adventure that probably a lot of people said like, not so fast, buddy. Like maybe start over here. You don't have to go all the way over here.

• 43:07Ken Rideout?

  Yeah.

• 43:07Rich Roll?

  Uh, and coming out the other side, victory aside, just to understand like, wow, like I actually did that. I put myself on the line. I did, I did something I was scared to do. I was uncomfortable about it the entire time. Um, and I proved something to myself and you know, if we can all flex that a little bit more in our lives, not just in sport, but in all facets of our life. I think we, you know, we all kind of come out the other side better people, more robust people with a capacity for perseverance. And I know that's a big topic for you, right? Like, how do you think about perseverance?

• 43:47Ken Rideout?

  Yeah, I'm actually working on a speech. I've been lucky enough in the last year or two to give a few speeches to schools and companies. And I'm working on a speech now about the practice of perseverance, of actually putting yourself in positions intentionally that are super challenging. And like I said, it could be anything. Maybe it's like taking jiu-jitsu. Like, that's something right now that's like on my list where I'm like, man, I'm so fricking nervous to go sign up for jiu-jitsu. I've taken classes before, but my youngest son, dude, he's a killer. He's seven years old. Like, he's ragdolling 12-year-old kids. It's, I have four kids. I signed three, I signed all four up. Three of them quit. They didn't want it, understandably. The little one, it's like a dad's dream come

• 44:31Ken Rideout?

  true. I watch him and I'm like, I cannot believe what he's doing. I cannot believe he's adapting and adjusting this quickly. He's choking guys, arm barring guys. I'm like, oh my god, he's a killer. But of all my kids, he's the nicest. So, anyway, back to my-

• 44:46Rich Roll?

  He's the little one, is he the one that that gets the mohawk haircut?

• 44:48Ken Rideout?

  Every year, has to have it. This year, he's like, dad, down to the skin, down to the skin. And I'm like, mom's gonna kill us. He's like, I want it. And I'm like, alright, soon as school's over. But, um, yeah, so I've been working on this concept of the practice of perseverance. Like I said, it's just, it's just putting yourself in a position where the only way you're getting through is to persevere. Maybe it's writing a book, maybe it's learning the piano. But we all have things that we wish we did, or we wish we could do. And I say, maybe you wanna fucking learn how to ride a skateboard in a ramp. Like, I'd love to do that, but I'm like, ah, do I really wanna bust my ass 20 times to learn? Although it does look fun if you can learn how to do it. Kite surfing, oh, I'd love to do that. Looks so much fun, but do I really wanna go down and go through

• 45:29Ken Rideout?

  the whole learning process? But this is a perfect example with the kids. So, my youngest and my oldest, so the youngest is doing jiu-jitsu. The youngest and the oldest went down and started wrestling. And they went with an elite wrestling team where I was like, guys. Before we went in, I said, guys, listen-

• 45:47Ken Rideout?

  If you're not willing to be the worst and to be terrible, you'll never be the best because when Mike Tyson went into a boxing gym the first time, he was terrible. And if he wasn't willing to get beat up, he couldn't have become what he became. And that goes for any fighter and any wrestler. Anything you do, if you're not willing to stink initially, you can't get to the next level because if you could show up and be awesome on day one, then what the fuck would you want to be the best at it for if anyone can show up and be awesome? The point of having something that's important to you and an accomplishment is that it took perseverance. And wrestling is is a perfect example. So we went down, the people were super kind. They were, the kids were nasty good. I mean, at one point they're warming up and the guy's like, all right, guys,

• 46:32Ken Rideout?

  cartwheels, forward rolls, back rolls, all right, guys, back handsprings. I'm like, back handsprings? Someone's gonna break their neck. A bunch of kids just, guys, start back handspring. That my, so my, some of the kids just did like a back roll and popped up. My little one flips right over. I'm like,

• 46:50Ken Rideout?

  you know how to do a back handspring? He's like, no, I just made it up. But I mean, that's, that's the way.

• 46:55Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 46:56Ken Rideout?

  That's the, the point is like, if you can't persevere through some discomfort, you can't get to like the promise line. You can't get to the top of the mountain unless you're willing to persevere up to like hot middle section where you're like questioning your like decision. And I, I believe that you can practice that ability to persevere through anything. And this to me was a, a lesson to myself, like, yeah, this sucks. I don't know if I can do this. I have never run in the desert. Like I said, I never slept in a tent. The whole thing overwhelms me. But I was like, fuck it, I'm doing this. It's like jumping in the ocean and being like, yeah, I gotta swim to that island over there. Well, the only way I'm gonna get there is if I jump in and start. So I just, that, that, that's the whole concept is like finding things

• 47:39Ken Rideout?

  that intimidate you and scare you and figuring out, can you do it? And if you don't do it, what can I learn? What can I do differently? What can I do to go back and fix this?

• 47:47Rich Roll?

  When I think about perseverance, I think about. Growth mindset versus fixed mindset, which is basically what you just laid out, right? Are you willing to look bad in front of other people? Are you willing to not be great at something? And like liberate yourself from whatever narrative you tell yourself about where you're at, right? You need that in order to grow. But beyond that perseverance requires a capacity to suffer, a stick-to-it-iveness, like a sense of belief in yourself to get you through hard times that comes with experience of continually putting yourself in those situations.

• 48:25Rich Roll?

  And just to, you know, an overall capacity to weather grit, right? And I often wonder how much of that is God-given? You come out of the womb or through the various experiences that you have as a young person that gets instilled into you? Or whether that's something that you can develop? Can you go from somebody who has a fixed mindset to a growth mindset? Can you be somebody who is fearful and not somebody who's, you know, putting themselves in difficult situations? And, and over time, develop that grittiness, that ability to persevere?

• 49:07Rich Roll?

  Like, how much of this is innate versus something that you can learn and develop?

• 49:12Ken Rideout?

  I do believe that some people are born with the killer instinct that they're like, "I'm doing everything. Life's an amusement park, I'm riding every ride." And there's other people who are like, "I'm sticking on the Ferris wheel. It's like, I know what I'm getting and it's cool and that's fine." But I think for the people that want to develop that mindset, that it's 100% achievable. And it doesn't have to start with something as crazy as like going across the desert, but it might start with like signing up for a 5K for someone who's never run a mile and just being like, "I'm setting some goals." I do believe that it becomes contagious. It's like losing weight or getting over drugs. It's like you start to build momentum with a little bit of longevity behind you, with sobriety, with weight loss. You start to see the results and you're like, "Oh shit, I might be able to do this."

• 49:57Ken Rideout?

  But nothing changes unless something changes. You have to take the first step and like be willing to get uncomfortable. And I always think, man, when I'm feeling super comfortable and things are so good, even my wife be like, "Dude, we're at the beach, just sit and chill." I'm like... I feel like I'm wasting time. I do think that there is a important component about being able to relax and uh unplug and decompress hundred percent. I I don't do it well, but I do know that that's something that I've got to work on, but that's the mindset that I've developed is like, man, it's life is short, and especially as I've like turned fifty, I'm like, oh, my God, I'm on the back half, man. I gotta make sure I get everything in

• 50:36Ken Rideout?

  within reason. And um actually, the last time I was here, when you uh my wife listened to the interview and she's like, man, that guy Rich, he's a mastermind. He could be a psychologist. He's like PhD in psychology. I'm like, what do you mean? She's like, when he was asking you about um, do you think your running has become a new addiction and could be like maybe an issue or something to that effect? I was like, yeah, hundred percent. I'm I'm super aware of that and and very cognitive of that. And I've thought a lot about it since then. And trying to find balance. And it's funny because after you after we did that interview and I thought a lot about that, I went to a um a place called uh onsite workshop, which is a trauma healing center. There's one in Nashville and one in uh SoCal and uh

• 51:22Ken Rideout?

  it was like life changing for me. It was

• 51:24Rich Roll?

  In what way?

• 51:26Ken Rideout?

  They base, you know, I didn't think I had any trauma in my life. I was like, I had a traumatic childhood. And I mean, not relatively speaking, not that bad.

• 51:34Rich Roll?

  Oh, come on.

• 51:35Ken Rideout?

  Yeah.

• 51:35Rich Roll?

  Yeah, they they they pulled the covers on that one quick, I I would imagine.

• 51:39Ken Rideout?

  I was in one on one intensive therapy for like five or six hours a day with a psychologist that was like, by the end, I was like, you're a fucking mastermind. You're a genius. Like, you saw right through me. She was literally like, she just picked everything apart. All the things that I thought I was so confident about. She was like, is that really true? And I was like, dude, I cried more in that week than I've cried in my life. She would put that we had. It was very interactive, which, you know, on the surface, I'm like, I don't want to do those hocus pocus shit. But by the end, I was like, what else do you got for me? Tell me what else. Fucking paint rocks? I'll do it. Let's keep going. So she puts up all the stuff on the uh wall, you know, like about your childhood and who are these characters identify and

• 52:23Ken Rideout?

  we're going through it. And so she's talking. And then after a day or two, she's like, look up on the wall at like what you've reflected on as your childhood. And she's like, who would this person be? I'm like, fire breathing dragon. She's like, okay. So she's like, do you think that in hindsight, do you think you've had trauma there? And I'm like, I'm like a crying mess. I'm like, I can't believe this. And it just, it gave me, my home life and my relationship with my wife and my children has never been better as a result because I was like, I was almost trying to force my, like, my beliefs or my, my way of doing things on the children versus like being amenable

• 53:06Ken Rideout?

  to what, if, if nothing else, what my wife suggests. My wife grew up in the most healthy environment, loving family. My wife is like the baby whisperer. She is like, she's what I am to running, she's that times 10 to being a parent. She is just awesome at it. That's all she ever wanted to be. She's good at it. So what I realized in this is like, she knows. Some of this stuff I don't know. It gave me pause and, and showed me how to like, take a deep breath and like, not be afraid to let, to give up some of the control. And it, it, more than anything, taught me patience with the kids. So like, as an example, I'd be recording the podcast. They'd be in the, in the theater underneath my office, jumping around, playing music.

• 53:50Ken Rideout?

  And I'd go down there typically, I'd be like, guys, hold on. Guys, what are you doing? How many times I gotta tell you I'm recording? It's only an hour a week. Cut that crap. Instead I go, guys, hey, I'm sorry. Hey, I'm recording, man. If you guys could just keep it down there. Like, dad, so sorry, we're gonna go outside. And I was like, oh my God, that was magic. What a difference.

• 54:09Rich Roll?

  It seems like such a small thing, but that's actually a big deal.

• 54:12Ken Rideout?

  But to get to that point, I had to do some work. You couldn't just tell me like, try this. I had to understand the like, the, the kind of ramifications behind it. And like, why would I try that? And when you understand, she's like, would you wanna ever make your children feel the way you felt? And I was like, again, a mess. I was like, I, I would rather be dead. I would never want my children to feel like that. And it's not that I'm not firm with them, I was just too firm. So finding that balance of like, firm and like, tenderness was critical. And, and, and honestly, a part of the reason where I committed to doing this was because of the conversation we had and just reflecting on like,

• 54:54Ken Rideout?

  Just going out and flogging myself and trying to be the best at running doesn't take away the work that has to be done behind the scenes and, and, and the impact that I'm having on my own children. And, you know, I think that it's easy to forget that children, especially young children like what my children were and are, is their first memory, you think about your first memory, your first experience with a roller coaster, with an airplane, it's, it's, it's etched in your mind forever, whereas you and I could go on twenty flights a year and not remember any of them, but you remember the first one. And all of their experiences, the first time experiences, and like, it's my job to make sure that they're as positive as possible, not like,

• 55:35Ken Rideout?

  I remember the time I went to the beach with my dad and I, he, I ordered the wrong sandwich and then he got mad and threw in the trash.

• 55:42Rich Roll?

  Right, which is, which is something you might have done in an offhanded way and forgot about and had no sense that that's getting deeply embedded in that kid's brain and thirty years later, they're gonna be thinking about that.

• 55:53Ken Rideout?

  Cause my parents did that shit to me and when I was there at that center doing this like deep dive into like my own mental health, I was like, oh my god. That's exactly what happened to me and I was like, oh my god, how do I undo what I've already done wrong? And she's like, no, no, you don't have to worry about that, just go home and be the best version of yourself and like, they'll understand that people make mistakes. So like as an example, my youngest son, he's in jujitsu, last week he goes on Fridays, it's really competitive, like competition jujitsu, and a kid's from out of town who's like eleven, he's seven, and the kid's like three belts higher than him and he's training for a tournament. He's so much more experienced, it's like a, almost like a teenager rolling with him. Most kids that are that much better, even in boxing and wrestling,

• 56:36Ken Rideout?

  they know when they're outmatched and they take it easy on the little kid. This kid beat the shit out of my son for thirty minutes, it was so hard to watch and I was getting pissed at the coach, cause I'm like, look, you're gonna get him demoralized at some point, but Cameron kept fighting, kept fighting, and at some point, he was kinda giving a half-assed effort and I couldn't help myself, I'm like, Cameron, come on. And he lost it, he started crying and it was, I was mortified, I was, I was crushed. I was like, dude, I'm so sorry. And I was like, man, I get emotional thinking about it now. Cause I had to like own that and take responsibility and it's in fucking Monday. He's like, dad, let's go jujitsu. We gotta get ready. And I was hoping that I didn't want to be like, hey, we got jujitsu. And then the coaches were like, Cameron, good for you.

• 57:21Ken Rideout?

  Cause they were like, I mean, he got the shit kicked out of him and he kept fighting. And I just was like, I wasn't, I think I was as much yelling at the coach as I was at him. Like, come on, man. What are we doing? The kid's getting the shit kicked out of me and he's not trying anymore. Like this isn't counterproductive. And I think we all learned the lesson there, but I was like, I'm never ever offering coaching again at any kid's sport. I'll walk outside. I don't want to be that parent living vicariously through my kids, which is why I have my own things going on. I don't want to be that guy. But valuable lesson and painful, but necessary.

• 57:55Rich Roll?

  Well, first of all, massive credit to you for, you know, even signing up to go into that kind of trauma work. I think it's super important. It's clear as day to me when I look at your backstory and the things that you lived through, that, you know, your past is littered with traumatic experiences that until you start to excavate, you don't understand the extent to which they're controlling your life unconsciously. And as somebody who grew up in a chaotic situation, it's no surprise that you're going to want to be a control freak, you know, control the variables and be in control of all the kind of aspects of

• 58:35Rich Roll?

  your life from business to running, et cetera. And, and with that comes a sense that this is how you survive. Like this is how you live. Like it's well intentioned. It's a defense mechanism. It's a survival tactic, right? And there's no reason to believe because you're successful on the outside, that this is problematic. Until you start to look into it and you realize the extent to which you're living your life unconsciously, repeating patterns that you inherited or that you developed as a means to survive a very difficult situation. And then comes the revelation of letting go of those and trying something different.

• 59:16Rich Roll?

  Now you can have the most capacious growth mindset of all time, but undoing that hardware and rewiring is one of the most difficult things you're ever going to do because I'm sure, and I'm interested in your thoughts on this. What comes up is, hey, if I let go, this is how I do everything in the world. If I let go of that, all the good things in my life go away. I don't know how to function in the world anymore.

• 59:42Ken Rideout?

  Yep.

• 59:42Rich Roll?

  That's one of the scary, I mean, you could talk about being scared to go out for seven days in the desert, but that's life threatening.

• 59:51Ken Rideout?

  Hundred percent. The, the work that I had to do at onsite was 10 times scarier than going to the desert. When I was driving to that place, I was like driving to like a life sentence. I was like driving to jail. I, again.

• 1:00:02Rich Roll?

  So what, what was the instigating incident, was it, did something happen? Like what convinced you that you should go do that?

• 1:00:10Ken Rideout?

  Honestly, I think, I think one of the big turning points was like listening to this interview back and listening to myself, like realizing how dependent I was on achievements and accomplishments and running and like all the extracurricular stuff to validate myself and thinking about that. And my relationship with my wife was terrible. I was just like a monster. I was trying to control everything, trying to like just do too many things. And honestly, I think my relationship was in such turmoil with my wife that I was like desperate for help to fix it because I knew that I'm the problem. And um, my friend who I bought my house from in Tennessee, he had gone there and it was expensive. And maybe it was like 10 grand for like four days, which to me is expensive.

• 1:00:52Ken Rideout?

  And, but at the same time, I'm like not too like, how much is your life worth? And I called him up one day, I was looking at it, looking at it. I knew I needed to do shit. I knew I needed therapy, but to me going once a week to therapy will be like pulling your finger in a dam that's about to, a crack in the dam and the dam's about to break. Like, hey, once a week ain't gonna help me. I need like that heavy artillery. Like, when I talked to you about the ultra, I was like, hey, when's the soonest I can get into onsite? They were like, then. And next thing you know, I was like, oh my God, what have I done? Just like with the Gobi Desert. I was like, dude, it was crazy. I drive up there and I didn't know any, like the Gobi Desert, I didn't know what I didn't know. And with onsite, I didn't even care to research it. I was just like, I'm just going, get there, didn't know if I could keep my phone or not.

• 1:01:37Ken Rideout?

  Didn't know anything. They were like, eh, phone, phone's gone. I hadn't put on like email alerts, like, hey, I'm off the grid for four or five days, whatever it was, I think it was five days. And then they're like, okay, here's your cabin. You're in that cabin over there. I'm like, do I have my own room? Cause I I requested my own room and they're like, no, you don't have you have roommates. I'm like, roommates? I'm like, oh, my God, what the?

• 1:01:56Rich Roll?

  I'm a grown ass man.

• 1:01:58Ken Rideout?

  There's three beds. I had the calendar up, taped up on my wall with all the sessions and I'd X them off like we were in jail. I'm like, dude, one more session. We're almost out here. I go, guys, we're halfway done. Let's go celebrate. I'll buy cokes for everyone, but there wasn't even soda there, you know, it was all, everything was controlled. But yeah, it was just a lot of hard work and like I said, I didn't know anything and man, like I said, I I sound like a big baby. I spent more time crying and then just driving home and like apologizing to my wife. And one of the things that I realized when I was there is that that the woman pointed out to me, she's like, you know, you've like given your wife every reason in the world to like ditch you.

• 1:02:40Ken Rideout?

  Like you almost dared her to leave you almost because you're afraid of doing this work, it seems like. And you have to recognize how strong she is to put up with the bullshit that she's put up with and stick with it because she's so desperate to hold her own family together. And that was like,

• 1:02:57Rich Roll?

  That's heavy.

• 1:02:58Ken Rideout?

  Fucking heavy. And I was like, I couldn't apologize enough. And it was like game changer for us. And listen, there's obviously there's bumps in the road, there's, there's, there's, there's hiccups in every relationship. We have, you know, arguments about petty bullshit now, but it's in perspective now because usually I'm always the bad guy. So now when she's out of line, I can be like, man, you're really being a jerk to me. And she's like, you're right, you're right. I'm sorry. But it's given us, um, I don't know, it's given us a breath of fresh air with regards to our, um, our personal relationship with each other and the way we deal with the children. It's was earth shattering.

• 1:03:35Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's huge from a, from a parenting perspective. This is something I talked about with Peter Attia when he was here as well, because I did a similar type experience in December. And it was revelatory and you realize the extent to which despite your best efforts to not parent in the unhealthy ways in which you were parented, when you're under stress or duress, you will default to doing those very things that you promised you would never do, right? And then you have the shame and the guilt. And when you go through this process and you wrestle with those demons and you really unearth all that fucking shit and you work through it, you understand that you have the

• 1:04:18Rich Roll?

  power and the ability and the capacity to arrest that pattern that's probably been going on for generation after generation after generation. And you have the opportunity to tell a new story and to pass on to your kids through the way that you parent and mentor them, a new way of being so that that pattern, which your whole life you've just thought, this is who I am because of who I came from, stops here.

• 1:04:47Ken Rideout?

  Yep.

• 1:04:48Rich Roll?

  And that's the greatest gift that you can give to your kids. And I don't care who you are, how successful you are, what, what kind of amazing, healthy family you came from. We all have shit, man. We all have stuff that happened to us and that gets imprinted in our brains and shows up in behaviors that we wish we could stop perpetuating and yet find ourselves powerless to do so unless we really hit pause and go deep like you did. And I think it's massive that you made that investment, not just in yourself, but really in your family and in future generations

• 1:05:20Ken Rideout?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:21Rich Roll?

  yet to be born.

• 1:05:22Ken Rideout?

  Yeah, because look, at the end of the day, I would die for my kids. Like, and so if I was willing to die for these guys, the least I can do is put my own ego aside and be the best person that I know I can and need to be. And to your point, the guilt and the shame, the cycle of guilt and shame is like so powerful that I hadn't thought about it in those terms until I had done the work at Onsite. And I was like, holy shit, I'm riddled with guilt and shame, not just at the way I might behave day to day, but like carrying that addiction journey with me and like the, the, the, the, the pain that that caused me long-term. It's like prior to that happening, I was like really happy, positive dude. I was like a good kid. The principal at high school liked me, all

• 1:06:03Ken Rideout?

  the teachers. And I mean, they still would, but I didn't like, I, I liked myself. And then after going through that, I was like, what a fucking loser you are. How could you possibly do this? Like you're, you're as bad as anyone else. You're a junkie. And getting over that has been, has not been easy. The, like getting off the drugs, the physical, the physical act of abusing drugs is one thing, but getting over that. The the damage that I did to my own ego and to my own personality is has been very difficult. Cause in like it's kind of like what I said when when I was in Chicago and I was like, oh, these people know you. There's a part of me still that's like, man, these people really like me. I don't even fucking like myself some of the time.

• 1:06:47Ken Rideout?

  You know, and that's the part that I'm so grateful for. I'm like, man, I it it gives me pause. It makes me think like, man, you you have to show yourself some compassion at times and that's one of the things that I've struggled with the most is showing myself grace towards myself. I I'm just so hard on myself internally. Peter Attia described it perfectly. If I fucking was late for something, I'd be like, you fucking idiot, how could you be late for this? Versus like, hey, man, roll with it. It's just shit happens like.

• 1:07:16Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:07:16Ken Rideout?

  Cause if if that happened to us, if the things that happened to me happened to someone else, I'd be like, dude, chill, man. Everyone makes a mistake. Don't even worry about it. I'd be the best cheerleader.

• 1:07:24Rich Roll?

  Yeah, you would never you would never treat another person the way that you treat yourself.

• 1:07:27Ken Rideout?

  Bingo.

• 1:07:28Rich Roll?

  Right? So so you have this outward facing um self belief and confidence, but inward a lot of that is being funneled through this self deprecating, loathsome, you know, perspective of who you are. And then, of course, that gets channeled into your running, right? What is the relationship between your running and all of those wounds? Like, if you feel like you're a piece of shit, how much of the suffering and the training and the racing is really about punishing yourself because you feel like you don't deserve good things? Or the only way that you can possibly contend with the guilt and the shame is to is to just

• 1:08:11Rich Roll?

  create physical pain for yourself as almost like, you know, like, like a like a hair shirt or like being just being fucking, you know,

• 1:08:20Ken Rideout?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:20Rich Roll?

  whipped by the priest or something like that, right? And then you can feel okay because you've done your penance. And I think.

• 1:08:28Rich Roll?

  The question that I asked you in the first podcast that I guess on some level, you know, kind of led to you going to this place, I'm not taking credit for that, but

• 1:08:37Ken Rideout?

  No, no, it absolutely did.

• 1:08:38Rich Roll?

  Maybe, you know, began to get you asking questions. The question, as I recall, that I asked you was, who's Ken Wright out without running? If you woke up tomorrow and running's off the table, you couldn't do it anymore. You couldn't compete, you couldn't push yourself physically. Who's Ken Wright out? And, and, you know, that led to an interesting discussion, but now I'm curious about how you would answer that now, having had the experience that you just had.

• 1:09:05Ken Rideout?

  Funny, the first thing that comes to my mind is who's Ken Wright out? I would think, say like, I'm a dog. I don't, if it's not running, maybe it's, maybe it's nothing to do with physical. Maybe I'll start some kind of business that I'm incredibly passionate about. I just haven't found that opportunity yet, but I would channel all the same energy into something to be, you know, to show myself that I can like overachieve and like grind at something.

• 1:09:29Rich Roll?

  Right, but what's beneath that? What's, what's, what's motivating that insane, you know, engine that you have to be the best or you have to overachieve? Is it insecurity? Is it fear? Is it a sense that if you don't do that, that you're a piece of shit or you're worthless? So like, there's, there's, there's very laudable aspects of that trait.

• 1:09:50Ken Rideout?

  Yep.

• 1:09:50Rich Roll?

  But there's also these darker kind of pieces here, right? That are, that are unhealthy and, and you'll be successful. Everyone will tell you, you know, you did a great job, but then you go home and it's a shit show, right? Because, because the unhealthy pieces are the ones that are kind of dictating your behavior in a way that you wish weren't happening.

• 1:10:11Ken Rideout?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:11Rich Roll?

  I don't, I don't mean to be like project or say that that's the case for you, but...

• 1:10:15Ken Rideout?

  That's, that's an excellent question, and I think one that everyone can benefit from, if nothing else, the thought provoking nature is that, that's a good point. Like my, one of my biggest fears in the world, and I've told my wife this from the day we met, I'm like, I'm so afraid of being mediocre at anything. Why? I don't know. Like, it's, it's obviously it's some of it is insecurity and self-consciousness, but...

• 1:10:39Ken Rideout?

  I just

• 1:10:40Rich Roll?

  That's the great discomfort, right? Like, you want to put yourself in a discomfort situation for you? Go into something and say, "I'm just gonna be okay at this."

• 1:10:50Ken Rideout?

  I just want to finish.

• 1:10:51Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I'm gonna be

• 1:10:52Ken Rideout?

  I'm just here to participate.

• 1:10:53Rich Roll?

  And hold yourself back.

• 1:10:54Ken Rideout?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:55Rich Roll?

  Just to like, check your ego.

• 1:10:57Ken Rideout?

  Then I'd be like

• 1:10:58Rich Roll?

  That's harder.

• 1:10:58Ken Rideout?

  Then I'd be like the clown in this group. I'd be like, "Come on, guys, let's have fun." If I'm not trying to win, I'm like, trying to make it as enjoyable as possible. I don't know, it's like, maybe it's like, the addict in me is like, constantly needs that dopamine release. Either it's from trying to overachieve, or from trying to have fun. I don't know, but that's definitely like, something that I've spent a lot of time thinking about. And, you know, I hate feeling like I have to perform for the attention or affection of others. But there's certainly an element of that. And I almost wonder like, if other people that have had success at anything, and again, not to try to hold myself up on a pedestal like some professional athletes, but I wonder if a guy like Cam Werff feels that, or Dez feels that thing of like,

• 1:11:42Ken Rideout?

  you know, what's driving me to do this? What like, what would happen if I couldn't do this anymore? I wonder how other people would answer that, because I'm not sure. But I know that the thought of just like, being mediocre at anything is like, scary to me. I don't want to go through my whole life and be like, "Yeah, there's Ken Rada, yeah, he was there." "Who else was there?" "Oh, this guy was there." "We didn't really hear anything from him, but he was there." I'm like, "What the hell, man?" You know, but maybe, when I was running in Mongolia, I see the people. I was talking to one of the guys, the Swiss guy as we're running, and I said, "Man, these guys are living out here on these fields, herders. We're in no man's land." And I said, "Dude, I bet you that those guys are happier than us."

• 1:12:25Rich Roll?

  Yeah, 100%.

• 1:12:25Ken Rideout?

  They must love this, otherwise they'd go do something else. Maybe they'd move to Ulaanbaatar, to make the city, and, you know, open a hotel or something, but they're out there and they just seemed completely happy. So I often wonder like, Who's winning? The guy who's just living content life and like, you know, farming coffee beans in Hawaii? Or the guy who's making twenty million dollars working in finance in New York? I can guarantee it's not the guy in New York. That fucking job, I'd rather be dead. Like, no amount of money is worth that kind of like anxiety and stress and keeping up with the Joneses and like worrying about what suit you're wearing and watch you're wearing. It's just, ugh, ugh. It's my motivation in life to try to do something different so I never have to go back to that.

• 1:13:09Rich Roll?

  Yeah, but you got your foot in the business world in more than a small way, right? Like, what is the relationship between all of these mindset tools and your competitiveness? How do these things play off of each other? Like, what have you learned from your marathoning, your experience doing this ultra, your success as an athlete that spills over to business and vice versa?

• 1:13:34Ken Rideout?

  Yeah, no, good question. When I was, prior to getting into endurance sports, when I was just a salesman in, on a trading desk, you know, it was just constantly trying to be nice to guys that I didn't like, having them be like completely disrespectful to me all the time. And any sales guys and financial sales guys listening to this will relate. It's just a terrible, terrible existence. And, you know, you have a few good relationships and you make a lot of money, but like your life or your, your financial security lives and dies with those relationships and it's stressful. But now, when I've, when I've done some things that like have garnered attention and I've, I, I don't think it's just winning.

• 1:14:15Ken Rideout?

  I think it's also the way I've carried myself and the sincere humility that with which I feel after these events. I, I think it's been, it's almost been attractive to people in the space so that people who are into running, so now I've been, you know, for the last five years roughly, I've worked as a placement agent, so I'll help brands like Roka, for instance, I didn't work with them, or Rone, the apparel company, like, again, I didn't work with them, but those are the kind of brands I might work with them to help them raise like a series A or series B. And I have institutional investor relationships and coincidentally, the best relationships I have with some of these guys are the people that are into running. And I have some excellent relationships with people that I genuinely like really enjoy

• 1:15:00Ken Rideout?

  being around. Like the nice thing about doing this freelance work is with this someone that I don't like unlike my previous life, I don't have to deal with them. Moving on, there's too many like, there's too many other opportunities to focus on negativity. And as a result, I've kind of surrounded myself with like-minded people that are all into the same thing. So, and, and I've been very lucky that I worked on a few deals that worked early on. One of them was a company called Power Dot that was acquired by Therabody. I invested in that early in a convertible note and I put a bunch of buddies into it. And with a convertible note, if the company gets acquired before the note converts to equity, you get paid a multiple of the money. And within six months of the investment,

• 1:15:42Ken Rideout?

  it got acquired. So as a result, we all got a multiple on our money and all the guys involved were like, what's next? So now, I only work on deals that I invest in. And when I do invest and I bring it to like this, my little network of high net worth individuals, family offices, or even some institutions, they're, you know, they're like, are you investing? Cool. Okay. We're at least in, but we'll decide the amount, send us all the materials, we'll do the diligence. And it's like, I've been super lucky that I've created this. I say to my wife all the time, I'm like, can you believe that I've been able to do this? I don't have a job. I don't work. This is unbelievable. Cause I like doing this. It's completely different than the trading desk environment and that like kind of hardcore banking where it's more like, this is very much based on relationships.

• 1:16:26Ken Rideout?

  And it's been wonderful. Like brands reach out. If I think that it's something I would invest in and I can do, usually it gets done. I've had very few failures in that space. And luckily, because I've picked them strategically. And, but yeah, so, so, so the, the running has complimented it really well because most of the brands that I would work with are in kind of like human performance or health and wellness space. Like no one's coming for me. No one's asking me to help them raise a, a software as a service business. I just, it's not my wheelhouse. I don't do tech. I'm just, that's way above my intellectual pay grade.

• 1:17:02Rich Roll?

  You're, when I look at you, I see a people guy. You're a relationships guy to your, to your point. And you're somebody who innately understands people.

• 1:17:12Rich Roll?

  I think the word like networking or networker is a terrible pejorative, but like I think that you like you're you're on the phone, you're talking to people all the time. You know what people want, you know what people need, you make sure that people's needs are met. You're one of those guys who's got a guy for everything. If I needed something like I need this, I'll call Ken, he's like, I got a guy.

• 1:17:33Ken Rideout?

  Need a guy, need some money, tell me what you need.

• 1:17:36Rich Roll?

  You got the guy, right?

• 1:17:37Ken Rideout?

  Of course.

• 1:17:39Rich Roll?

  How do you become the guy who's always got a guy?

• 1:17:42Ken Rideout?

  That's a good question, and I talked about this the last I was on here about networking. If you think you're networking, strike one. They know this isn't like something that you consciously do, it's the way you live your life. And please, for the love of Jesus, last time I was on here, I said, I hate LinkedIn. I don't understand why people send LinkedIn to strangers without even an explanation like, hey, here's why I want to connect with you. I go through this whole rant the last time, I get home, I am not shitting you, I had like two or 300 LinkedIn requests. Please, if you don't tell me why you want to connect, why would I want to have an anonymous connection?

• 1:18:14Rich Roll?

  Did you reply to every one of them, telling them why you weren't gonna accept them?

• 1:18:17Ken Rideout?

  No, I'm sorry, if you don't get a yes from me immediately, I see them all. If I hit ignore, it's because there's no explanation. And what good is a really, what good is it to say, I'm connected to Ken? If we don't know each other, and if someone asks me, do you know Steve Smith? No, I don't know that guy. Well, you're connected to him on LinkedIn. How do you slip through the cracks? Goodbye. But um, yeah, but to your point, it's like, I used, I said to Rob more, uh, maybe about a year or two ago, I said, you know, I think that one of my biggest, one of my best, or most marketable skills is being interesting. He said, no, I disagree. I think that you're not as interesting as you are interested. You are really interested in people, like when, you know, he's like, I've been with

• 1:19:00Ken Rideout?

  you a million times where someone's like, talks to us and you ask them a million questions about what they're doing, but it's not conscious. But I am interested, like I'm interested in what people have to say and what they have to do. But it's one extreme or the other, like Rob was telling me when we were running this morning, he was like, yes, so and so was asking like, so what's the deal with Ken? And, and he said, that's a transparent guy. Like what you see is what you get. And if he doesn't like you, unfortunately, he doesn't do a good job of hiding it. And I think that that's the truth is like, people either love me or hate me. And I, I'm aware of that. I don't want people to hate me, but at the same time, if you hate me, it's probably because I hate you. I don't hide that and I don't like something about someone and I, I have a hard time like hiding contempt.

• 1:19:45Ken Rideout?

  And that's a fault of my own because I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings. I want to be kind to everyone. I, I really do. But there's some people that you're just not gonna like. And I know that when you have a big personality, which I can at times, that it sometimes is off putting to others. I, I don't, I certainly don't want people to dislike me, but I understand that that's, I'm not for everyone. But more people than not, I think, kind of see through that and recognize that the people who are my friends, I'll help them do anything. If I have a hundred dollars and you need ninety, like, cool, we'll figure out a way to get the ninety back. But here it is. And that's, I hope and think that most of my friends would agree with that assessment, that that's how I feel towards them.

• 1:20:27Ken Rideout?

  The people that are in my life, I, I, like I said earlier, I'm a product of the people I'm around. I'm so grateful for the friendships I've had that I have right now. Like when I was working in finance, I was like an empty vessel, which is why I turned to drugs. I, I, I couldn't fill this void of emptiness that I had. And the people that I was working with, not all of them, there were some beautiful people, but there were a lot of complete assholes. And I just, I, I wasn't good in, in that environment. It was like, I was like a tree that didn't, like a palm tree trying to grow in fucking Staten Island. It sucked. It was miserable. I didn't really fit in with everyone there. I just, for better or worse, um, and now.

• 1:21:07Ken Rideout?

  Like I said, if someone doesn't jive with me or doesn't fit with my beliefs, I don't have to deal with them. And I say to my wife all the time, I've never been in a position in my life, ever, where I've had less conflict with people. I never have conflict with people, ever, like, on a, on a working basis. You know, you might have words with someone off the cuff in the subway or something, um, which my wife would be like, why do you have words with someone in the subway? I'm like, ah, sometimes I just can't let shit go. When I see wrongs, I gotta speak up.

• 1:21:38Rich Roll?

  Yeah, like you chiming in in comment threads on Instagram, too.

• 1:21:42Ken Rideout?

  I try not to.

• 1:21:43Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I hope that's improved since the last time we talked.

• 1:21:46Ken Rideout?

  Yeah, I very rarely respond to negative comments anymore.

• 1:21:49Rich Roll?

  Yeah. When I look at your life, I see, I see somebody who's living a pretty aspirational life. Like, you get to do what you want, you get to make money in the way that you want, you get to, you know, pursue your athletic adventures and, you know, distinguish yourself in that world. You get to be a parent to these kids that you love. So I would imagine people wanna know or come up to you and ask, like, how do I, like, how do I craft or cultivate this type of life? Like, do I follow my passion? Do I do the right thing, et cetera? And when I reflect on my own life, I can't help but think about the role that pain has played in getting me to change

• 1:22:33Rich Roll?

  or getting me to kind of wake up to, you know, ways that aren't serving me and, and, and kind of compelling me because I was so fucking backed into a corner to finally pay attention and start to kind of make some shifts or whatever that have led me to this place. So, how do you think about the role that suffering and pain has played in, in helping you get to where you're at? And is it possible to arrive at a place like that without having to weather all the suffering?

• 1:23:04Ken Rideout?

  Yeah. Well, for starters, I'd say you're talking to someone who was like suicidal for several years, struggling with addiction, waking up every day, getting high 24/7. First thing in the morning, as soon as I get out of bed, taking opioids because I couldn't get, I couldn't take a shower until I was like, got some relief from the pain and like the physical withdrawals. And when you are in that level of despair, and keep in mind, I was able to function and continue to like live a productive, on the surface, life, but I was like... Destroying myself like emotionally and to come out of that thing like I was thinking about this on the flight out here I was like man I'm so grateful that I don't have to depend on drugs that I'm sober it's just like it's a dream come true and I think that that level

• 1:23:46Ken Rideout?

  of gratitude has served me but the other thing I'd say is when I so I was working in finance just getting by I mean we were like I married my wife best decision I ever made we had beautiful children that part is all like within everyone's grasp finding the right partner is like so critical I can't stress it enough if I there are things that my wife and I disagree about but the one thing that I knew for sure was that this is the person I want to be the mother of my children and maybe subconsciously in a Freudian way I wanted her to be my own mother but we don't have that kind of relationship but

• 1:24:21Rich Roll?

  Yeah that creates problems.

• 1:24:22Ken Rideout?

  I often think of that where she is like the like she's the mom of our house like she cares for all of us but we have very distinct roles like I deal with all the finances and all the like tip we have the most traditional like old school relationship like dad does the dad stuff mom does the mom stuff and it works for us it doesn't necessarily mean it has to work for everyone but I would say that when so when I when I got sober we have four kids I'm living in New York I'm commuting from Westchester and I was like this is a losing proposition man I I can't keep living like this I'm driving an hour in the morning two hours sometimes at night to get home I'm making just enough money to be comfortable but I'm not rich I don't I don't have anything extravagant we had

• 1:25:04Ken Rideout?

  a nice house but not like not a friggin house that you'd pull up and be like holy shit what's this guy do it was like a house and I was just like I don't want to do this anymore and and but now I have huge responsibilities we sold our house moved to the Palisades most expensive place on earth probably I mean it was so crazy expensive we rented a house and I I don't wanna make it about money but just to give context for people like I was far from rich and we rented the only house we could find that could accommodate us twelve thousand dollars a month I was like dude this I'm on a I have a runway now and that that runway is short and I gotta figure this out and I'm working at a tech startup that I didn't think would succeed.

• 1:25:46Ken Rideout?

  But I had blind faith that I would figure this shit out and I don't know why. When I say I didn't sleep for six months, like dude, I didn't sleep. I was like constantly panicking, like having panic attacks of like, but I'm, I'm gonna figure it out. I don't know how. And long story short, I convinced my friend, Jack McDowell, who ran the Palisades Group, an asset management firm in LA. They didn't really have marketing. He wasn't really growing the business and I convinced him to hire me to run business development. He had like two billion in assets under management, but it was all like separately managed accounts. So it wasn't like a two billion dollar hedge fund with two and 20 fees. And uh, he was like, you don't really have experience. And I basically said, I'll do it for free. I'll work for free. Now, I did, no health insurance,

• 1:26:30Ken Rideout?

  no nothing. You talk about putting your frigging balls on the line. And he let me do it. And in a few weeks, it was obvious it worked. Two years later, he had five billion in, in assets and we had three different discretionary funds, like real head, like hedge fund style funds that paid real fees. And it was like, like the gold be race. I was like, I did this? Holy shit. I can't believe I did this. But it was literally like, I'm just gonna figure it out. And for whatever reason, like the, the stars just aligned and the universe just was like, this guy believes in himself. We're gonna reward him. Like I, I, I always have a hard time accepting, accepting the fact that I did something. I always think like, oh, I got so lucky there. It lined up perfectly and I was in the right place at the right

• 1:27:15Ken Rideout?

  time versus I made that happen. But I also think that that humility and that not getting overconfident prevents you from getting out over your skis and doing something stupid, which you could argue that that might've been a stupid decision had I gone bankrupt and like embarrassed my whole family. But instead, we've, I righted the ship. We started to like have, you know, create a little bit of comfort for ourselves, at least that I wasn't like, I could sleep. And um, you know, when COVID kicked in, the kids got sent home from school and it was just too much. Four little kids on iPads and um, my wife went to Vanderbilt and she's like, let's move to Nashville. Now that you're working from home, because my boss at the time, my partner, Jack, was like, you can do this for yourself

• 1:27:58Ken Rideout?

  and work for yourself. And I'll keep you on as a consultant and give you a year of runway. And I was like, dude, I don't think I can do this. Who's gonna hire me to raise money for them? And he was like, dude, this guy was like, this guy Jack McDowell was like my fucking guardian angel. He believed in me more than I ever believed in myself. He's one of my best friends. I love this guy. He was like, you can do this. And I was like, dude, I can't. He's like, I'm gonna pay you X a month for the next year. And I was like, that's more than enough. And he's, but I had raised like a discretionary funds. He's like, instead of me paying you a bonus and a salary, I'm gonna give you this monthly retainer. Go do your thing. And when we raise the next fund, you come and raise it for us as a consultant.

• 1:28:37Ken Rideout?

  And I did. And the first mandate I raised money for was David Sinclair's uh life bioscience in Boston and uh. I'm working from home. Covid started. I've always said to my wife, imagine if we could make like New York, LA finance money, but live in like Austin or Nashville. And she was like, let's do it. So I couldn't bring, I love living here. I was driving here thinking, I fucking love Malibu. Running, biking, but no one else had that connection in my family. They, they were like, they liked it here, but they weren't like, I'm in heaven. So she was like, let's go to Nashville. I said, I can't bring myself to do it. You go find a house that you like. If you find it, buy it and I'll move there. So I saw the house the first time when we pulled up and moved in. Yeah, you know, I think you told me that last time. That's unbelievable. That's an unbelievable story.

• 1:29:23Ken Rideout?

  But the point I wanted to make is when you're, and it sounds cliche again, I know, but if you're waiting for everything to line up, like as soon as everything's lined up, I'm gonna start my business. Or I'm gonna move to um Puerto Rico and take advantage of the tax shelter and but. If you're waiting for the time to be right, fucking stop wasting your time. Right. Or I'll have, I'll have kids when everything is sort of set, right? As soon as I have five million, I'm doing this. Nah, do it now. That, that day never comes. Never. And you know, to the people who would look and say like, I want that. I wish that there was a formula or an easy answer where I could say, do this, this, this, because people ask me all the time. I'm like, brother, I don't have the answer for you.

• 1:30:04Ken Rideout?

  But all I can tell you is you have to believe in yourself to the point where you're like willing to die to win. I will win this race or I will die trying. It's funny after the second stage of that Gobi race. I haven't shared this with anyone, the video, but I sat down and made a video of myself where I'm like, my elbow's bleeding and I like just, cause I wanted to remember how I felt. And I'm basically talking to the camera and I'm like, I'm fucking destroyed. And I like literally start getting emotional. I'm like, I don't know how the fuck I'm gonna keep doing this. I, I can't bear the thought of running 24 miles. I haven't, I, I am destroyed.

• 1:30:34Rich Roll?

  Hmm.

• 1:30:35Ken Rideout?

  I'm, I'm a mess. I'm bleeding. I'm like, I don't know what I'm doing here. I, I don't know what I'm gonna do. And like, I start to get choked up and I'm like, I just wanted to make it, like I said, for my wife, eh, for, for myself and to show my wife like what I was experiencing in the moment without being dramatic. And it was like, I think it's pretty moving.

• 1:30:53Rich Roll?

  Yeah, that's wild. I, you know, I think belief in yourself, yes, but also this reflex to action, right?

• 1:31:03Ken Rideout?

  Hmm.

• 1:31:04Rich Roll?

  This idea of execution, not waiting until everything's lined up before you take that action. Or not sitting on your ass until you have the whole roadmap of how you're gonna get from point A to point Z. Like, anybody who's successful has to begin and you start to just move forward. And it's like, stuff shows up right in your like immediate, you know, view, only at the last minute when you need it to show up in order for you to take one more step. And that's how everything gets done and gets made. And you gotta develop a capacity or, or a comfort level with that level of uncertainty.

• 1:31:43Ken Rideout?

  The biggest thing of all that is like, aside from believing in yourself and all this stuff is like, you can't be afraid to fail. Like, fear is the worst. And I say it all the time. And like Teddy Alice talks about this and he learned this from custom motto. And it's like, you know, it's a well-known expression, but the coward and the hero feel the same exact emotion when confronted with a situation. It's just how do you act in response to the fear? The hero is like, okay, I see you. I know you're there. Here's how I'm gonna handle this. The coward is like, I fucked this, run. Or ignore.

• 1:32:19Rich Roll?

  So you can be afraid to fail. It's just what are the actions that you're taking in the face of that?

• 1:32:24Ken Rideout?

  You can be fearful, you can't be afraid. Cause you will fail. Like if you tried to do epic shit, you're gonna fail. It's, it's, I mean, the, the, the frigging road to success is littered with failures. Like anyone who's, who's, who's been super successful has had failures along the way. It's impossible to like do epic shit and not have failures. I mean, the best athletes in the world, uh, what's his name? Kipchoge went to win the Boston Marathon and he got beat. It was the last one he had. If you told me Kipchoge was gonna get beat at something, I'd be like, I got 10,000 that Kipchoge wins, even money. And he lost. But that's, it's like the expression, what would you do if you knew you couldn't fail? That's the motivation to try these things, like these other endurance races where I'm like, oh my God, I'm so scared.

• 1:33:09Ken Rideout?

  I'm afraid to even mention that I might do it, which is part of the reason why I mentioned them. Cause now I'm like, I know people are gonna be like, when are you doing that?

• 1:33:16Rich Roll?

  Right. That's the obvious question. You know, is a pilot light lit now and you're gonna go off and do all these ultras? And I think that there's something really cool and amazing and interesting for you to explore in that world. And I think it's such a beautiful community. It's very different from the marathoning community. Um, and I think you'll really enjoy, uh, you know, everything that that has to offer. At the same time, it's like, are you running towards something or are you running away from something?

• 1:33:44Ken Rideout?

  Yeah. I think I could probably make an argument for both. Although I would say, knowing what I know now, I'd say I'm running, I'm, I'm, I'm running away from things less than I've ever been. I'm like aware of the challenges that I'm facing emotionally and spiritually and, um.

• 1:34:03Rich Roll?

  And just to put a name on it, like what are those challenges?

• 1:34:07Ken Rideout?

  I think a lot of it is insecurity and like just being aware of like. How much of this is performative? What am I doing for like the accolades and affection and attention of others versus like a sincere desire to like explore what I can and can't do? And, and I do think that, again, not to sound cliche, I do think that there's a huge element of that, that I do just, that's kind of my personality, it's like, what else can I do? Like, I, I, I like doing this, I like saying like, I don't know, uh, freediving, I, I don't have any interest in freediving, but how far could I freedive? Oh, that seems real scary, what if you can't get a deep breath and you get stuck down there, can you die? Hmm, man, that might be interesting to try.

• 1:34:50Ken Rideout?

  Scares the shit out of me, but like, those are the kind of things where I'm like, hmm, what else can I try that would be scary? And not because I don't want to fail, but I do want to like, kind of explore those things in a healthy way, but I also want to be sure that it's like, I want to be very conscious of what is the motivation there.

• 1:35:09Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's tough too, because it's not one or the other. You can have that, but also, like, ah, I'm restless at home, I'm, I, I don't know, something doesn't feel right, like, oh, I'll sign up for a race, I'll sign up for an adventure. And it's like, that's when you're running away, you're like, you're, you're just like putting the blinders up, because you don't want to deal with whatever is making you uncomfortable about sitting still in your own home.

• 1:35:34Ken Rideout?

  Yeah, that could be it. There was, um, I will say, I got a lot out of the element with the Gobi race of like the planning and like the strategic thought about food and supplements and like, which supplements do I bring? I take a lot of supplements, primarily from Momentus, but I was like, which of these supplements are so necessary that I'm willing to carry them for six days?

• 1:35:57Rich Roll?

  Hmm, what made the, what made the cut?

• 1:35:59Ken Rideout?

  Yeah, good question. I, um, I took a daily multivitamin and two fish oils daily from Momentus, and I took, um, Athletic Greens, I took Momentus Recovery Powder, which I was like, man, I don't know if I should carry this recovery powder, I should just abandon this and eat the food and go straight food, the freeze dried stuff. But in the end, I was so glad I had the recovery stuff because... I don't know about you, but after a huge race like a marathon or an epic, like a long, hard effort, I don't have an appetite for like five hours sometimes. So to force the recovery powder down every day was like, thank God I brought this because it got calories in right away. And then I just forced myself to eat the calories throughout the day. That was the only part. I was that that was tolerable. I was hungry a lot.

• 1:36:45Ken Rideout?

  But I was also like so deep in the pain cave that I was like, I can only tolerate so much food. So it made that calorie deficit like a little bit more palatable. You know, the the rest day sucked because I was just like, I could have eaten like, you know, frigging half a cow. I was just like so hungry for and and so hungry for like fruits and vegetables because I was like, dude, all I've been eating is this freeze dried crap. Like I just we just want something like with like substance or like some real vitamins and minerals and nutrients, not all this sodium and like processed shit.

• 1:37:19Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Did they do it differently at at like Marathon de Sabe where they have these big camp set up at the end of the stage? And I think, do they feed you dinner there? Or do you have to bring your own food?

• 1:37:30Ken Rideout?

  The difference in Marathon de Sabe is they just provide a roof, like a shelter. You're sleeping on the sand from what I understand.

• 1:37:37Rich Roll?

  But there isn't some kind of big barbecue when you waiting for you when you

• 1:37:41Ken Rideout?

  Not only that, they don't boil the water for you. Like in I'll I'll give you guys some pictures and videos that shows like what the camp setup looked like. There was like just some big like almost like barbecue grills with kettles on them where they would boil the water. And then there was like just a pile of bottled water sitting in the desert. So I was like, my wife was like, well, at least they gave you cold water. I'm like, cold water? The water was like an inferno. I was like, one was boiling and one was hot. But they would boil the water and you pour it into the freeze dried food. In Marathon de Sabe, I think you have to actually carry the little like um little stove thing that you could boil your water. But a lot of those meals you can pour. The water doesn't have to be boiling. And so you're so hungry and like.

• 1:38:22Ken Rideout?

  On queer street that you like fucking cold water, warm water, it didn't matter. And I think that, and I also think Marathon de Sable is like majority is like over sand, like really loose sand. Just seems so much harder. People are like, oh, you're gonna do Marathon de Sable? I'm like, you couldn't pay me a hundred grand to do that race. I've like, I've been there, done that. I don't want to sleep in the sand.

• 1:38:43Rich Roll?

  The next one will have no sand involved.

• 1:38:46Ken Rideout?

  The funny thing is the guy who planned out the course, um, Spanish guy is like, listen, I got a great race in Namibia. It's the same exact thing as this, but we sleep in hotels and eat great meals every day. I'm like, ooh, now you got my attention.

• 1:38:59Rich Roll?

  Um, what is the supplement routine when you're at home?

• 1:39:03Ken Rideout?

  In the morning, I'll take like most mornings, I'll take Tyrosine and most of this is like part of the Huberman protocol. I'll take Tyrosine, uh, like an Alpha GPC for focus if it's a work day. I don't take it on the weekends and I'll take NMN.

• 1:39:18Ken Rideout?

  After workout, I take the Momentus Recovery Shake, scoop of Athletic Greens, creatine, um, a multivitamin, uh, two fish oils, zinc and vitamin D and some carnitil. And then at night I'll take the sleep pack from Momentus that has like theanine, magnesium, yep.

• 1:39:38Rich Roll?

  Yeah, and apigenin?

• 1:39:40Ken Rideout?

  Yeah, exactly.

• 1:39:41Rich Roll?

  The other one?

• 1:39:41Ken Rideout?

  Yeah.

• 1:39:42Rich Roll?

  I get crazy dreams.

• 1:39:43Ken Rideout?

  Yeah.

• 1:39:43Rich Roll?

  When I take that.

• 1:39:44Ken Rideout?

  Dude, I'm a junkie. When I go to sleep and I have a crazy dreams, I'm like, this is like a dream, this is like a dream come true. Even a nightmare, I'm like, I'm sober. When you're in that kind of dependence, every time you wake up, you're reminded of like, you ain't going anywhere without those drugs. Did you, you're going on vacation for a week? Do you have 55 Percocets ready to go to get through the week? Now I've only got 40. Okay. So the last two days you're going to be in withdrawals and make it miserable for everyone?

• 1:40:12Ken Rideout?

  That puts it into perspective.

• 1:40:13Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:40:13Ken Rideout?

  So when you have like, think about those things, like I'm overwhelmed with gratitude and just full of positive vibes.

• 1:40:20Rich Roll?

  You're 52?

• 1:40:21Ken Rideout?

  Yeah, 52.

• 1:40:23Rich Roll?

  So how are you thinking about the next couple of years? Where do you see yourself in three years, five years? How are you staying on top of your fitness and all of that?

• 1:40:34Ken Rideout?

  I don't feel old, like I don't treat myself like an old man. Sometimes I see like gray hair in my, on my head, especially on my beard and I'm like, fuck, I'm old.

• 1:40:43Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:40:43Ken Rideout?

  And it's, it panics me. I don't like it. And I know, dude, it's cra-

• 1:40:48Rich Roll?

  I don't, I don't, part of me doesn't like having the beard because it's super white. I feel like I'm a hundred years old, but my wife likes it. I'm like, alright, I'll do it. But like, you know.

• 1:40:57Ken Rideout?

  I just can't do it. I'm way too insecure and vain. I feel like, oh my God, I look so old. But do you, do you feel like this? Sometimes you look in the mirror and you're like, wow, I look old. I don't feel any different than I ever have in my whole life. Like, I don't feel different than when I, I mean, I feel emotionally a lot more mature, but from a physical standpoint, I think it's, maybe the soreness becomes so gradual that it just like, the only thing that's massively noticeable is the eyesight. Like, I can't see my phone without reading glasses at forty-five and it just got a little bit worse every year, which is depressing. But I don't feel like, I don't feel like I'm deteriorating at all. And I don't know if it's because I've just stayed active and stayed busy

• 1:41:37Ken Rideout?

  and just refused to give into that, or if maybe I'm lucky, like from a genetic standpoint, that I've been able to adjust. But I was talking to T O the other day because I had my LP little A and Apo B levels tested and they were super high, like panic level high. And I'm like, dude, this is causing me massive anxiety because I'm like, oh my God, I don't even think there's a way to lower these because it's all genetic. I don't eat an unhealthy diet. I very rarely, if ever, eat meat, you know, primarily fish. And so to think that I have this, it was like, man, the day I got that diagnosis, my wife's like, what's up? I was like, I was like in a bad place. And I was like, I'm going out to run.

• 1:42:18Rich Roll?

  It's scary. That's really scary.

• 1:42:20Ken Rideout?

  I literally was like, you know, in tears.

• 1:42:22Rich Roll?

  How long ago was that?

• 1:42:23Ken Rideout?

  Two months.

• 1:42:24Rich Roll?

  Uh huh.

• 1:42:24Ken Rideout?

  I said to my wife, like, I'm gonna have a heart attack. I'm, I think I'm gonna die now. Like, this is crazy. Wha- how is this happening? I went out that day and ran like the hardest interval run ever. And she's like, what are you doing? I'm like, I refuse to give in to this. Like, if, if, if I'm gonna, if this is gonna happen, let's do it now. I was just so depressed. So now I've been like, trying to cope with it and figure out like, what am I gonna do? And so I'm starting to like formulate a plan and figure out, do I take a statin? What do I do? It's.

• 1:42:51Rich Roll?

  I got, I got a couple of people, uh, for you to talk to.

• 1:42:54Ken Rideout?

  Definitely.

• 1:42:55Rich Roll?

  Including Rob Moore.

• 1:42:56Ken Rideout?

  Yeah, yeah, Rob and, Rob and Andrew have been massively helpful.

• 1:42:59Rich Roll?

  Yeah, you don't wanna fuck around with that. And it's that thing where, doesn't matter how fast you run, sometimes, like in T O's case, like, who would've thought, right? Um, I think there are certain lifestyle things that you could tweak that could help that. And, you know, whether or not you need a statin, you need to explore that and figure that out quickly. But it's, yeah, that's when you're really kind of confronted with your own mortality. And it goes back to control. Is this something you can control or not? Which is a scary thing.

• 1:43:27Ken Rideout?

  Yeah, and it's not something that's easily controllable. And that's what's been hard to deal with. It's like, man, what am I gonna do? But I'm gonna formulate a plan and I'm definitely gonna take you up on talking to anyone who's willing to talk to me, so.

• 1:43:38Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:43:39Ken Rideout?

  The cardiologist, when he was talking to me, he's like, yeah, we'll get you on a statin. I was like, nah, I'm not taking a statin. He's like, why? I'm like, I just haven't heard good things about him. I don't know why. I was just emotional. And I was like, I'm taking my chances. So when he sent me the report, he's like, uh, told patient of risks. Patient responded, I'll take my chances.

• 1:43:56Rich Roll?

  Oh, that went in his notes?

• 1:43:57Ken Rideout?

  Yeah.

• 1:43:58Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Well, he's covering his ass.

• 1:44:00Ken Rideout?

  Oh, of course, of course.

• 1:44:01Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:44:02Ken Rideout?

  That's all right.

• 1:44:02Rich Roll?

  You might wanna rethink that.

• 1:44:03Ken Rideout?

  Yeah, no, I definitely do. It was just when I, when I heard it, I was like, I'm not at that level. Like, I'm not on statin, what are you crazy?

• 1:44:10Rich Roll?

  But I think you're, you're a, you're a good case study for use it or lose it. Like, you feel the way that you feel because you continually apply pressure, right? So you feel like you're 30 because you've been training in a certain way for a very long period of time. And you've been able to kind of maintain. Uh, whereas most people drop off and they're rebuilding and they're rubber banding. And I'm in the middle of that type of experience because of this lower back problem that I've had. Like, when I was, you know, when I did, how old was I? 51 when I did O-Tile? Yeah, I felt fucking great. And now I've had this back issue, which has forced me. To be more sedentary and to not express myself physically in the way that I choose and like in order to just feel like who I am.

• 1:44:56Rich Roll?

  And now I'm finally on this path of healing and I'm seeing results. And now I can move, not like, I'm not out killing it or anything like that, but I can kind of get out there and, you know, ride my bike and go to the pool for the first time in a long time, man. And I'm like, oh my God, this is what it feels like to be me. Like, I'm so grateful, like you take this for granted and it gets taken away for, from you for a little bit. And they're just simple things. They're not like material things. They're just like, I need to do these things for my mental health, for my physical health and just to like feel like I'm myself. And to be able to reconnect with that now and see a path forward. It's like, I feel so fucking good and I feel I had forgotten what it feels like to.

• 1:45:40Ken Rideout?

  What a lot of people don't realize and they should, is that a rich man has a million problems and a sick man has one. After I came back from Chicago on Sunday morning, came home, hung out with the kids, had dinner Sunday night, didn't eat anything offensive. I don't even remember, like something vegetable salad, same thing my kids ate. Sunday night, dude, I woke up, I had like a stomach bug or food poisoning and I threw up for like 24 straight hours. Like it was so bad, I was like, almost like begging to like, just God, please put me out of my misery. Take me out, I can't do this. My head was in a vise grip, I couldn't stop throwing up. And all I could think was like, I'd give up everything in my life to be healthy. I just, it was, I, I literally was like, am I gonna die?

• 1:46:23Ken Rideout?

  Like, this is unbelievable, I can't move, I'm frozen on the bathroom floor, I can't stop throwing up. And that was like such a reminder of like, dude, slow down. I think my body was just like, yeah, enough, cut the bullshit. Go be desert, then go to Chicago, run a beer mile, flying around, almost like just ignoring common sense tactics of like, dude, you need to give your body a rest.

• 1:46:43Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:46:44Ken Rideout?

  So I took like three days off from running, first time in like a long time that I've had multiple days in a row off.

• 1:46:48Rich Roll?

  Wow. When you think back on the habits and the routines that have contributed to your success beyond, we talked about the supplements, we talked about the 10 miles a day. What are some other things that you build into your daily regimen that you think have been important in moving the needle?

• 1:47:08Ken Rideout?

  Definitely number one performance enhancer, sleep. I go out of my way to get proper sleep. It doesn't always happen, but like I don't really drink. I mean, I've never been a drinker, like my recovery never involved like, oh my God, I can't have a drink. So like if I might have a drink every couple of weeks, but that's not my thing. But I also think alcohol like wreaks havoc on your sleep and just your whole recovery. So I don't really do any of, I don't partake in things that I used to partake in. So I really emphasize sleeping and I also emphasize consistency. Like I keep it moving and people, it's funny, I always get so many like internet coaches

• 1:47:53Ken Rideout?

  that are like, hey, let me tell you how you should be doing this. I'm like, what the fuck about me tells you I need help? Like this works for me. Maybe I could be better if I had recovery built in, but it isn't all about performance. Some of it is just about mental health. Like I feel like I emotionally, I need to just move my body in the morning. It gets endorphins firing. It is what it is. It's like my blessing and my curse. But so when people offer that advice, I'm always like a little taken aback. Like I don't want to be rude to them, but I'm like, dude, fucking worry about yourself.

• 1:48:25Rich Roll?

  Are you still working with Mario?

• 1:48:27Ken Rideout?

  Oh yeah, Mario's like, he knows, he knows the drill. But you know, if we're not in, if we're not getting ready for a marathon, he doesn't send me daily training every day. He's just 10, 12 weeks out. He puts together very specific and I follow it blindly. But. I think that the consistency of training, the point I was gonna make is so, so if I'm feeling destroyed and run down, so I'll just run really easy. And that works for me. I like come back, feel refreshed. The next day I might feel stronger. If I don't, I continue to run easy. I never, unless we're in that 12 week session and then I just follow the plan. And on the easy days, you have to run easy. You physically can't do track workouts followed by hard, long runs and not feel run down. So my easy days are

• 1:49:10Ken Rideout?

  just 10 miles, super easy. And I know that that for a lot of people, they'd be like, that's crazy. You shouldn't do that. And maybe not, but that's the system that I use.

• 1:49:19Rich Roll?

  And what about the gym routine?

• 1:49:20Ken Rideout?

  Yeah. So three or four nights a week, I lift weights. I try to mix it up all the time. Like a shitload of pull-ups, push-ups and sit-ups are the staples. And I'll do some bench pressing, kettlebells. I just try to keep it interesting all the time. Do some squats, leg work, hamstring stuff, because the hamstrings always get overused in running.

• 1:49:41Rich Roll?

  It seems like that's a big piece in your resilience as you continue to age up and your ability to kind of recover. And maybe even, you know, in the Gobi Desert, your ability to kind of get on all fours and do some of the, you know, real technical, like slogging through the mud and climbing over rocks kind of shit that played to your advantage over just a pure runner.

• 1:50:05Ken Rideout?

  Yeah, I definitely think my experience as like, kind of like a hybrid athlete, a hybrid training helped me a lot. Just with everything, like resilience in general, like the ability to go every day. Like, I know what it's like to train every single day. So to do that and just dig deep for five or six days, six days, seven days, six stages was okay. It was longer. But if it's long for me, it's long for them. And that's what I kept telling myself is like, I'm suffering, but guess what? So are they.

• 1:50:31Rich Roll?

  Yeah. The last thing I wanted to ask you, I put it out on the internet, like, hey, Ken's coming in. What should we ask him? And got a bunch of questions. But there was one that I wanted to kind of end the conversation with, which is, somebody said, what would Ken say to, to, you know, someone like myself who's just lazy? I can't, I just can't, I can't get, I can't get off the couch. I can't, I can't get myself into that gear.

• 1:51:01Ken Rideout?

  I would say exercise like your life depends on it because it does. And if you're lazy, like, hey, do your thing. That's. You can't, it's like, what would you tell someone who's addicted to drugs and deep in the throes of addiction? I'd say when he's ready to get healthy, he'll get healthy. But you can't tell someone to get healthy. You can't tell someone to get sober, you know this. I mean, that's why they have interventions. And then they usually don't work.

• 1:51:24Rich Roll?

  They don't work. Yeah, because you can't, you can't will somebody into willingness.

• 1:51:29Ken Rideout?

  Right. Honestly, if this person was talking to me, said, dude, I just don't feel it, I'd be like, brother, then don't do it for yourself. Do it for your wife, do it for your children. Have some pride in yourself, like dig deep, man. Doesn't it, you don't have to run marathons, but like, you can't fucking walk for thirty minutes a day? Can't do twenty pushups? Those little things become contagious. They become, it becomes like a snowball rolling down a mountain. It will gain momentum. But it's just like straight physics. A body in motion will tend to stay in motion and a body at rest will tend to stay at rest. Unless acted upon by an outside force. You, you're in control of this. Like you only have one life. Why would you? This is, the only thing you're in control of is your body. Why would you squander and neglect?

• 1:52:14Ken Rideout?

  The fucking greatest gift you could ever receive. Like, look at what I, look at what people have been able to do with their bodies. Even myself, like to go to the desert and put myself through this, like, I can't believe my body did this. And, uh, what else can it do? And it's awesome. And I would say, like, don't cut, that's, that's, get over that, that's a fucking poisonous mindset. Being lazy is like, yeah, I'm lazy, I don't wanna work. Well, you ain't gonna fucking eat, cuz you ain't gonna get paid. Like.

• 1:52:44Rich Roll?

  It's also a story.

• 1:52:45Ken Rideout?

  Yeah.

• 1:52:46Rich Roll?

  That gets reinforced every time you tell yourself that you're lazy.

• 1:52:50Ken Rideout?

  That's right.

• 1:52:50Rich Roll?

  Right? So, do you have the capacity, the power to tell a different story? And that different story begins with taking one step. And to your point about um, an object in motion stays in motion. At least do enough for as long enough that you create momentum.

• 1:53:08Ken Rideout?

  Yep.

• 1:53:09Rich Roll?

  Because there is a physical law with momentum, but there's also like, it's like the force. There's like a spiritual power to it. Why is it when you're on a roll and you have momentum? That it's just easier to keep going? And when you have that intervening event that throws you off your game and you get interrupted? It's so fucking hard to get back. So when you have that momentum, you gotta protect that, like, your life depends on it.

• 1:53:34Ken Rideout?

  Yeah.

• 1:53:35Rich Roll?

  Because if you can continue that momentum. You're on a roll, like you can, you can literally just ride it out into a, a completely changed experience of your life.

• 1:53:47Ken Rideout?

  That's right, and but it starts with the first step. So first of all, like I said earlier, it's the reality doesn't matter. What are you telling yourself? People might think I'm crazy. I'm telling myself I'm definitely winning. There's another part of me saying like, you're gonna get killed, but the voice that's saying-

• 1:54:02Rich Roll?

  Do you override that? Do you consciously say, okay, I'm gonna tell myself I'm winning because I'm trying to mute out that other voice? Are those things that whirl each other?

• 1:54:11Ken Rideout?

  I can literally see them debating each other. Like, I have the thought of like, oh my God, we're gonna fucking, when the guy passed me for third, I was like, oh my God, we're gonna think, we're gonna be fucking happy to get in the top five. And then I hear myself talking to myself like, dude, cut the fucking shit. This is one day. Tomorrow, we're gonna bounce back and we're gonna get these guys. Next time, we'll sit on them, we'll do this a little different. We're gonna try this. And it's, that voice only needs to be 1% louder. 51 to 49, the alpha voice wins. And like I said, the reality doesn't matter. The only, the only the story you're telling yourself matters. And I'm, I'm hyper aware of that when I'm in the moment. And, uh, but it doesn't make it any easier. I have a normal person. I have all the same concerns and like insecurities as everyone.

• 1:54:56Ken Rideout?

  I'm like, please, God, don't let me embarrass myself. So many people are watching. I'm such a fucking big mouth. I told everyone I was doing this. But I think part of it is like creating this accountability exercise for myself because I've mentioned anything on here, for instance. I know everyone's gonna ask me about it. And now I've backed myself into a corner. And I'm like, all right, maybe I'll lose, but I can't be afraid to fail because I'm going to try. And just, not trying is not an option.

• 1:55:22Rich Roll?

  Right. And, uh, stay off of LinkedIn.

• 1:55:26Ken Rideout?

  Please don't send me a LinkedIn request.

• 1:55:28Rich Roll?

  Your incoming LinkedIn messages.

• 1:55:29Ken Rideout?

  LinkedIn incoming.

• 1:55:32Rich Roll?

  It's always a pleasure to talk to you, man. You're such an inspiration and I always get so much out of everything that you have to share. And I think what you're out doing, you know, leading the way as an example of what's possible, you know, for people in our age bracket is super cool. And I think, when I think about masters, athletes, like this is a new thing. Like, when we were kids, there weren't people in their 50s out, you know, it's like, so when you're breaking records, you're like, yeah, that's great. But in, you know, my estimation in 100 years from now, like whatever records are standing right now are gonna get eclipsed 100 fold.

• 1:56:12Rich Roll?

  Because we are, not we, but like, I think people are exploring human capacity at older ages for the very first time.

• 1:56:21Ken Rideout?

  No, but I think it is we. I think you're like a thought leader in this space, like 100%. Like, I'm so incredibly proud of you. I friggin' love you. I love the people in this community. I love the people that I'm friends with. I'm, like I said before, I'm overwhelmed with gratitude. The fact that you wanna hear what I have to say is like, doesn't even seem real to me at times. I was such a fan for so long and I just was, just working tirelessly in the dark, in the cold, just doing my thing. And eventually it was like, holy shit, this is unique? Well, everyone's not doing this? Literally, I was like, I'm shocked. This is, I, but I guess they're not.

• 1:56:57Rich Roll?

  Yeah, well, every year there's fewer, right?

• 1:57:00Ken Rideout?

  Exactly, exactly. But this, I would say, endurance sports has given me the greatest gifts in my life. Like I said, it's helped me carve out a world in which I don't have to answer to anyone else, I'm responsible for myself. Anytime I've been in a position to eat what I kill, essentially, like, live on your own, like, you don't make any money, you don't get paid. Like, you don't do deals, you don't get paid. Cool, I like that. I know that. I'm terrible at processes. Like when I worked at the Palisades and Jack is my friend Jack, it would drive him crazy. Cause he's a banker. He's like an MBA, CFA, uh, Excel wizard. Like this is a frigging intellect math major type. I would take no notes. I had no systems. I just had relationships and he would tell me what needs to get done and I would get it done.

• 1:57:45Ken Rideout?

  And he would literally be like, I fucking hate the fact that you are able to do things the way you do them. Because it doesn't make sense. It shouldn't work. There's you have no accountability. You have no records of anything. And I'm like, I know I'm terrible as an employee. That's why now I'm unemployable. But if you tell me what needs to get done at what date, I will live and die with that success. If I don't get done, don't pay me. But if I do get done, I'll take a zero. Or if like you're gonna pay me a hundred dollars if I do it, pay me zero if it doesn't get done. Pay me 200 if I do it. Most people are like, you know what? I'll do that. And I'm like, cool. I don't know that I'm gonna be able to do it, but I'm gonna now the pressure's on. I'm gonna do it. So that was part of the struggle of working in finance and then working at an asset manager.

• 1:58:30Ken Rideout?

  Like asset management, hedge fund, private equity, those guys are fucking intellectual. They are dialed. If you go into a proper private equity of real venture fund like an El Catedral. My buddy, Michael Forello, shout out. Those guys are, they are pros. And I am not the best fit in that environment because my processes suck. I know it. But if you tell me you need something done, I know and the people that know me know it's getting done. And I just, the way I get it done sucks. You know, it's like the Gobi Desert. I don't know how I'm gonna do it, but I'm getting over that finish line first.

• 1:59:02Rich Roll?

  Right. Endurance, so to wrap up, endurance sports as teacher.

• 1:59:07Ken Rideout?

  Yep.

• 1:59:08Rich Roll?

  As, as a spiritual guide, um, self-reliance, integrity, being true to your word. Uh, developing the capacity for resilience. The, uh, the, the reflex towards action. Fear of failure versus, uh, how did you distinguish it? Fear, uh, fear of failure versus you, there was.

• 1:59:35Ken Rideout?

  Being afraid.

• 1:59:36Rich Roll?

  Being afraid, right? How do we distinguish between those two things?

• 1:59:39Ken Rideout?

  You can be fearful, but you can't be afraid.

• 1:59:41Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:59:42Ken Rideout?

  So much good stuff, man. Well, I will just say that I'm so grateful, I'm so happy that for the opportunity to be here and um yeah, I hope that um people get something out of this and if I can be of service to anyone, I'm very easy to find and very easy to reach, even for the haters. Especially on LinkedIn.

• 2:00:04Ken Rideout?

  On Strava, on Strava sometimes someone would be like, after the bear mile, someone wrote a comment, tagged their friend and said, you know, Joe Blow, you gotta take this guy down. That kind of comment, I can't ignore. I'm like, motherfucker, you know where to find me. I'm the easiest person in the world to find me, find. Anyone can get it. I'm not hiding from anyone. And I was like, why would you even respond? I'm like, I don't know, I feel like they poked me and now I've gotta respond. Yeah, you might wanna work on that. The one thing- You gotta bring your APOB down. That might be, that might be one of the ways to do it. The one thing I will say in closing is my friend Jelly Roll taught me an awesome lesson and if you don't know who Jelly Roll is, he's the fucking nicest guy in the world, country music star, former rapper, former convict, just incredible inspiration.

• 2:00:48Ken Rideout?

  He said to me one time, I was telling him someone left a shitty comment on my Instagram and he's like, Ken, your Instagram that you're referring to, we're looking at it together. He's like, there's like 300 positive comments here and one asshole said something shitty to you. He's like, do you know how disrespectful and insulting it is to the people that left you nice comments that you're gonna only respond to the fucking asshole? And I was like, it like hit me like a ton of bricks. I'm like, you're right. Why wouldn't I take time to be like, write a personal thank you to everyone who took the time to say something nice to me? And it was a incredibly valuable lesson of just like, I still struggle with it, but it doesn't, but it helped put things into perspective because I was like, yeah, man. And I also would say,

• 2:01:29Ken Rideout?

  imagine if I was saying to you, Rich, you gotta see what I did on, I went on Slow Twist or Let's Run and I trolled the shit out of some pro athlete. I, I talked so much shit about him, I accused him of horrible things, unfounded. And I said all nasty shit about him, you'd be like, why? Ah, just because I think that he's an asshole. Why is that? I don't know, I don't even know the guy. You'd be like, are you a fucking loser? What productive person has time to be disrespectful and negative towards another man who's out there doing shit, the man in the arena? Like, worry about yourself. So I've tried to do a better job of tuning out the like negativity, although there's not a lot of it, but there is some and I'm always like taken aback because I'm like, why would someone dislike me? I've never done anything bad to anyone. Anyway.

• 2:02:12Rich Roll?

  That's great advice. It is amazing when you think of it in that context because these people who took time out to say something nice, you're ignoring them.

• 2:02:20Ken Rideout?

  Yep.

• 2:02:21Rich Roll?

  And you're giving all your attention to some, somebody who just said something nasty and they're getting, that person is getting exactly what they want, which is your attention.

• 2:02:31Ken Rideout?

  Which is crazy. Can you imagine being the person, that's my point, is imagine being the person who's like, "Yeah, I talked shit about someone and they responded to me." Like, what a loser. Like, I can't imagine wasting my-

• 2:02:40Rich Roll?

  Nobody use out pushing themselves and doing hard things and, you know, trying to better themselves is wasting their time talking shit about people in comment sections.

• 2:02:49Ken Rideout?

  Or at least if you're gonna say it's, "Come and see me on a raise and be like, "You suck." And I'll be like, "Oh, really? Why is that?"

• 2:02:58Rich Roll?

  Alright, man. We gotta disabuse you of that obsession.

• 2:03:01Ken Rideout?

  Yeah.

• 2:03:01Rich Roll?

  So, next time, we'll do a whole therapy session on comment sections.

• 2:03:04Ken Rideout?

  Yes.

• 2:03:05Rich Roll?

  Because we talked about that last time, I think, too.

• 2:03:06Ken Rideout?

  Yep, yep, yep.

• 2:03:07Rich Roll?

  So this is still haranguing you on some level. And, uh, we gotta get your blood markers down. But I love you, buddy.

• 2:03:12Ken Rideout?

  Thank you, brother.

• 2:03:13Rich Roll?

  You're the best. Um, I really appreciate you coming here today and, uh, let's go grab something to eat.

• 2:03:18Ken Rideout?

  Hell, yeah. Thank you for having me. And thanks to everyone for tuning in. Appreciate this community. You guys are the best.

• 2:03:23Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Peace out.

• 2:03:29Rich Roll?

  That's it for today. Thank you for listening. I truly hope you enjoyed the conversation. To learn more about today's guest, including links and resources related to everything discussed today, visit the episode page at richroll.com where you can find the entire podcast archive, as well as podcast merch, my books, Finding Ultra, Voicing Change, and The Plant Power Way, as well as The Plant Power Meal Planner at meals.richroll.com. If you'd like to support the podcast, the easiest and most impactful thing you can do is to subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, and on YouTube, and leave a review and/or comment.

• 2:04:14Rich Roll?

  Supporting the sponsors who support the show is also important and appreciated. And sharing the show or your favorite episode with friends or on social media is of course awesome and very helpful. And finally, for podcast updates, special offers on books, the meal planner, and other subjects, please subscribe to our newsletter, which you can find on the footer of any page at richroll.com. Today's show was produced and engineered by Jason Camiolo with additional audio engineering by Cale Curtis. The video edition of the podcast was created by Blake Curtis with assistance by our creative director, Dan Drake. Portraits by Davy Greenberg. Graphic and social media assets courtesy of Daniel Salis.

• 2:04:57Rich Roll?

  Thank you Georgia Whaley for copywriting and website management. And of course, our theme music was created by Tyler Pyatt, Trapper Pyatt, and Harry Mathis. Appreciate the love, love the support. See you back here soon. Peace. Plants. Namaste.