Samin Nosrat’s Success Looked Different Behind Closed Doors

It’s been eight years since Samin Nosrat published her smash-hit cookbook, Salt Fat Acid Heat. She says her whole adult life was on a trajectory toward that book. But in the aftermath of its success, Samin ended up in a dark place, struggling to understand why achieving her goals didn’t fix her problems.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Dan Pashman?

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• 0:45Dan Pashman?

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• 1:17Dan Pashman?

  So, Samin, this is the second time that you're joining us here on The Sporkful.

• 1:20Speaker 01

  No, it's more than that.

• 1:21Dan Pashman?

  Well, I'll tell you why it feels like more.

• 1:23Speaker 01

  Well, we did the, because I did the pasta thing and we did one-

• 1:26Dan Pashman?

  Oh, you're right, right, right. You're right, sorry.

• 1:28Speaker 01

  And we did one, you lost it, we rerecorded it.

• 1:30Dan Pashman?

  Yes, that's-

• 1:31Speaker 01

  And then we did the pasta one, so I-

• 1:33Dan Pashman?

  So you've been on three times, but you have, oh, and you and Rushi-

• 1:35Speaker 01

  And didn't we do cookies? You're just like-

• 1:37Dan Pashman?

  Sorry.

• 1:38Speaker 01

  You're erasing me from history.

• 1:43Dan Pashman?

  This is The Sporkful. It's not for foodies, it's for eaters. I'm Dan Pashman. Each week on our show, we obsess about food to learn more about people. Now, one quick note before we get started, it's that time of year, friends. I want to hear your New Year's food resolutions for 2026. Send me a voice memo with your first name, location, and tell me what food you resolved to eat more of in the new year and why. Send that voice memo to [email protected] and you just might hear it in our year-end show when I will also be revealing my New Year's food resolution for next year. All right, let's get into it. This week on the show, I'm talking with Samin Nosrat. As you heard, she's been on the show many times, four to be exact.

• 2:26Dan Pashman?

  The first time, we did a long form interview and we really hit it off and became friends. So she was the one I called when I needed help naming my pasta shape cascatelli. And we've stayed in touch over the years. I even went to her house a few years back. So now that she's got a new book out called Good Things, I wanted to have another nice, long chat to catch up. Now, first, a quick recap of Samin's backstory, which we covered the first time she was on in 2018. She's from San Diego. Her parents came to the US from Iran. And being the child of immigrants, Samin said that from the time she was young, she always felt a lot of pressure, both from her family and from the outside world. Here she is during that first appearance on our show.

• 3:02Speaker 01

  I felt like I was always in two worlds. Like going to school, I wanted to be a good student. I wanted to make my parents happy. I wanted to make them proud and I wanted to succeed. So I worked really hard and I did my best to sort of fit in. And I figure, I sort of told myself this story that if I worked really hard and sort of succeeded, that maybe nobody at school would notice, wouldn't notice that I wasn't just like everyone else.

• 3:27Dan Pashman?

  That feeling that success would fix these issues followed Samin into adulthood. She worked her butt off getting into the food industry in college. Her first job was as a bussler at the legendary Bay Area restaurant, Shea Panis. She also harbored dreams of being a writer while working in other high end restaurants and cooking in Italy. Her twin passions of food and writing finally came together in one of the most successful cookbooks of the last decade, Salt, Fat, Acid, Heat. Recently, Samin said that her whole adult life was a trajectory towards that book. It sold over a million copies. Samin followed that up with a Netflix series of the same name, which ratcheted up her stardom to a whole new level. Now, Samin has a new book, Good Things: Recipes and Rituals to Share with People You Love.

• 4:10Dan Pashman?

  It's been eight years since Salt, Fat, Acid, Heat came out. And in this conversation, I was most interested to talk with her about those eight years in between, dealing with the success of her first book and TV show, falling into a period of clinical depression, finding her way out of that, and then channeling it all into her new book. One of the things that helped Salt, Fat, Acid, Heat connect with so many people was the way Samin wrote it. She very intentionally tried to come across as your kitchen friend.

• 4:38Speaker 01

  I wanted you to know so clearly that I would do it this way. And like, one of the most beautiful sort of compliments anyone's ever given me is my friend Lex's mom Barb. One year for Christmas, she wanted to make a beautiful beef wellington. She was like, had made some big like reduction sauce, but the dinnertime was fast approaching and the sauce was still too watery. And I was in the kitchen. She was like stressed getting everything ready. And I was like, oh, it's fine. Like, all we have to do is just set up four pans, you know, and divide the sauce and turn them up, crank them up and reduce faster.

• 5:09Dan Pashman?

  Right.

• 5:10Speaker 01

  And she was like, what? And so we got the meal on the table or whatever. And like, the next day she called, she's like, you know, every time I'm in the kitchen with you, it feels like I'm in the kitchen with my own mom. Like, it feels so comforting in this way where I know like you have my back. And I was like, oh, that's a really nice thing. I sort of was like, well, maybe I can be that for you.

• 5:31Dan Pashman?

  But in some ways, this kitchen friend approach worked too well.

• 5:35Speaker 01

  Too well. You know, the book and the show were a little more than a year apart in coming out. And so already with the book, there was plenty of that sort of people feeling very close to me. But the show was just to another level because people see you and they feel like they know you. I think people really had the like, developed very deep parasocial relationship with me, which I could not have anticipated or like understood or wrapped my mind around.

• 6:01Dan Pashman?

  I think it's natural.

• 6:01Speaker 01

  It's totally natural. And it's not like that it's not genuine. Of course, like, the silliness, the warmth, the openness, the curiosity, those are absolutely parts of me. It's just that there's a lot of other parts of me that don't make it on the camera.

• 6:14Dan Pashman?

  This relates to a clip I want to play for you, Samin.

• 6:16Speaker 01

  Oh, God.

• 6:17Dan Pashman?

  This is you on Brene Brown's podcast in 2021.

• 6:20Speaker 01

  Wow, you went deep, Dan.

• 6:23Dan Pashman?

  All right, let's hear this clip.

• 6:25Speaker 01

  I think people think I'm just the one version of me that's edited and put out on a podcast or on a TV show. And the thing is, is I'm not an actor. Like, that's really, truly me, what you see on the TV show. It really is truly me. But it's just one part of me. I'm also kind of a huge bitch. Like, I'm really judgmental, most of all toward myself. I'm an incredibly critical person. You know, I'm not pure niceness and joy. There are a lot of difficult things in all of us.

• 6:58Dan Pashman?

  So, Samin, if you'll-

• 6:59Speaker 01

  Is the name of this episode gonna be like, Samin is a huge bitch?

• 7:02Dan Pashman?

  We'll see how it goes.

• 7:03Speaker 01

  Okay, great.

• 7:04Dan Pashman?

  Well, Samin, if you'll humor me, I'd like to do a little exercise with you. Let's just for a minute, set aside Samin the Kitchen Friend.

• 7:11Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 7:12Dan Pashman?

  I want to talk to Samin the Judgmental Bitch.

• 7:14Speaker 01

  Oh, okay.

• 7:15Dan Pashman?

  And let it out.

• 7:16Speaker 01

  I've never been reddier.

• 7:19Dan Pashman?

  All right. What's the worst thing about food TV?

• 7:21Speaker 01

  Oh, the fact that everything is a competition is so dumb. I think it's because they've, like, the executives have stumbled upon a production formula that's relatively inexpensive and sort of gets enough views. And it's really dumb. Like, it's just really dumb. It's not actual cook. It's just really stupid.

• 7:45Dan Pashman?

  What's the thing about food influencers that gets you most pissed off?

• 7:49Speaker 01

  I think for me, the thing that makes me the saddest, and I find myself sometimes being like, I should do this. Like, I should do affiliate links. I should do ads. And then when, anytime I get close to doing it, there's just like a deep depressive, like, dark hole of sadness inside of me where I'm like, this is what the world has become is just all affiliate links?

• 8:07Dan Pashman?

  Right.

• 8:08Speaker 01

  I don't know, man. It makes me so sad for the state of the world.

• 8:12Dan Pashman?

  All right, we're getting a little off track. Let's try to stay angry here, Samin.

• 8:14Speaker 01

  Okay, okay, okay, okay, sorry. Sorry, sorry.

• 8:16Dan Pashman?

  We crossed over in the sack.

• 8:17Speaker 01

  I gotta go back to judgmental. Okay.

• 8:20Dan Pashman?

  All right, last question in our-

• 8:21Speaker 01

  That's it. This was, I was just getting into it.

• 8:25Dan Pashman?

  What's the most overused ingredient? And why does it make you so angry?

• 8:29Speaker 01

  Oh, I love burrata so much. There's a weird way where ingredients like burrata, some of them that are rich and like have a certain amount of like, it's often from a Western culture, but like international cachet, become like a symbol of your refined taste. And so then there's a way where like, there's just a burrata salad everywhere you go or whatever. First of all, all burrata is not created equal. The burrata itself.

• 8:58Dan Pashman?

  Big time.

• 8:59Speaker 01

  And then also like, I don't know. I don't always want like, want to eat your weird hot house tomatoes in February. Like, I just, I don't, I don't know. Like, there's other ways to be creative.

• 9:10Dan Pashman?

  I would add, if I can tap into my judgmental bitch. The biggest problem with burrata in restaurants, at least in America, is that it's cold.

• 9:17Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 9:18Dan Pashman?

  They take it out of the fridge.

• 9:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:19Dan Pashman?

  It has, you know, 50% of the flavor that it would have had if it had been sitting out.

• 9:23Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 9:23Dan Pashman?

  But I was just in Italy and I had burrata there. And then they just leave it out on the counter.

• 9:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, because it's also made fresh every day there.

• 9:29Dan Pashman?

  Right.

• 9:29Speaker 01

  And that's the, that's the real bummer for me is that there is like one sort of mediocre burrata place. And then all the rest comes from Italy. And so it's not fresh.

• 9:38Dan Pashman?

  Right.

• 9:39Speaker 01

  It's like 10 days old. It's starting to get a little tangy and fizzy. And you do not want to eat that. I do not want to eat that.

• 9:50Dan Pashman?

  So that's Samin's judgmental side. But that's not really the person I saw in our first interview. To me, she came across as very earnest. In fact, as I learned, she had a practice of writing down a list of her hopes and dreams. But I wondered how Samin feels about that list now. I want to play for you, Samin, a clip from the first time you were on the Sporkful.

• 10:09Speaker 01

  Oh, terrifying. Okay, okay.

• 10:11Dan Pashman?

  Um, this is 2018.

• 10:13Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 10:13Dan Pashman?

  This was after the success of Salt, Fat, Acid, Heat, the book, on the eve of the release of the Netflix series with the same name. Um, and this was when you had mentioned that you had a manifestation journal.

• 10:23Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, my manifestation journal.

• 10:25Dan Pashman?

  And I asked you to read something from it. So this is you reading in 2018 from your manifestation journal.

• 10:32Dan Pashman?

  Read me the first page.

• 10:33Speaker 01

  Okay, so it just says, long term, find the thing I love to do, do it well, and make enough money doing it to live comfortably. Okay, I think I'm like getting there on that one. Okay. Fall in love and have have and sustain a healthy relationship with a smart, funny, handsome, confident, caring, steady man. Hmm, not yet, has not happened. Raise at least two healthy children. Nope, has not happened. Publish, this is so specific. This is so specific. Publish four books, popular, well-reviewed books that I am proud of by good, well-known publishing houses. Okay, well, I did one.

• 11:08Dan Pashman?

  What are your thoughts hearing that?

• 11:12Speaker 01

  Um, I mean, honestly, nothing about that list is that embarrassing or intense, but um, something about hearing my voice.

• 11:26Speaker 01

  It just makes me really sad.

• 11:28Dan Pashman?

  Why?

• 11:35Dan Pashman?

  I mean, if you don't want to go into this, we don't have to.

• 11:36Speaker 01

  No, no, no, I just am trying to find words for it. Um.

• 11:42Speaker 01

  I've just spent so much time

• 11:49Speaker 01

  trying to like do all the

• 11:53Speaker 01

  things a person's supposed to do in their life and feeling like I'm failing at it.

• 11:59Speaker 01

  And

• 12:03Speaker 01

  I feel like I can hear that inner voice. Like, you know, I mean, it was just such an intense time, like, it's such an intense thing to like spend your whole life

• 12:19Speaker 01

  trying to be like recognized for the thing you're doing, trying to do a really good job.

• 12:25Speaker 01

  And then getting that attention in that like massive tidal wave. It's so um.

• 12:34Speaker 01

  It's just, it was so much. And even there was like, almost like a frenetic energy in the way like I was talking and reading.

• 12:48Speaker 01

  I just, I mean, that person is also me. It's not completely gone. I haven't totally like healed that. But it just, and I still have that journal. I still open it once or twice a year and write in it. It's not like, I think it's nice to have dreams. I just, um.

• 13:06Speaker 01

  I don't know.

• 13:07Dan Pashman?

  And one of the things you talk about in the new book is that after that success,

• 13:15Dan Pashman?

  which, you know, I think to the average outsider would be like, this was your dream and you attained your dream. But that wasn't how it felt. And as you, you talk very openly, that, that actually triggered an intense period of depression.

• 13:27Speaker 01

  It was a really lonely time. I didn't have help. It was just me. Just me checking my email, just me getting a million texts from people who I hadn't heard from in 30 years. Just me like, getting stopped on the street. Like people would grab me. They would grab my clothes on the street when they recognized me. I mean, out of, out of like excitement and joy, but still there was just a way I got like lost and eaten up. And I also like, I'm still a brown, people pleasing girl. And so there was like a rage inside of me. There was a loneliness, a sadness, like

• 14:06Speaker 01

  there was a lot of it I hated, but you can't show that because you have to, and I also am and was so grateful. So you have to hold all this stuff in. And then in my own regular life at home, I mean, I have wonderful friends, but even a lot of those friends, like in some ways I felt very separate from because. Again, like, what author doesn't dream of selling a million books? You know, like, and there's just a lot of cost that comes with it in toll that I did not anticipate or understand would happen. And I didn't have anyone to talk to about it. And I didn't have any way to let it out. I was holding so much inside.

• 14:47Dan Pashman?

  Roughly around that time.

• 14:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, you came and visited.

• 14:51Dan Pashman?

  Yeah, I came and I happened to be in the Bay Area. I dropped your line. You said, sure, come on over. And yeah, I mean, you were, you were not in a great place.

• 14:57Speaker 01

  No, it was hard.

• 14:58Dan Pashman?

  I'll be honest, like, I left there like, a little worried about you.

• 15:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, I remember. That was a bad time, yeah.

• 15:03Dan Pashman?

  It was almost like, where's Samin?

• 15:05Speaker 01

  I certainly, in that depression, lost sort of my desire to eat and my desire to cook. And so if I'm not curious, if I'm not interested, then there's like, why am I even doing this? I don't, I don't know.

• 15:20Dan Pashman?

  Right, you say you were subsisting on like Trader Joe's pizza half the time.

• 15:22Speaker 01

  Totally, I had a lot of Trader Joe's pizza.

• 15:32Dan Pashman?

  Coming up, Samin finds a ritual that helps her work her way out of her depression with the help of some ruined pork. Then she tells me what she's done in her new book that she swore she would never do. That's after the break. Stick around.

• 15:52Speaker 02

  Hope you're hungry, because it's time for some ads.

• 15:58Dan Pashman?

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• 16:39Dan Pashman?

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• 17:00Dan Pashman?

  As we turn to fall and the weather starts to cool down, I think of things like crunching leaves. I think of sharing from the sidelines of a soccer game, walking the dog in the woods. And when I think of doing all those things, I'm usually wearing something from LL Bean. Whether it's my puffer vest, my puffer coat, my scarf, whatever you're doing outside this year, you probably need something from LL Bean. Whether it's their boots, their Scotch Plaid flannel, their rugged field coat, or more. Grab the layers and people you love and get outside. Visit llbean.com to shop the fall collection. LL Bean, be an outsider.

• 17:34Dan Pashman?

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• 18:06Speaker 03

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• 19:09Dan Pashman?

  Welcome back to The Sporkful. I'm Dan Pashman. Last week on the show, man, we get into some big issues. We talk about the cooking fat wars. In America, the cooking fat you use, whether it's lard, butter, shortening, oil, it's long been a signifier of health, virtue, and class. So what is it about fat that gets us so riled up? Well, reporter Adjoa Jimabrempong looks at how our attitudes towards certain fats have changed over the years, including how that played out with former First Lady Eleanor Roosevelt. Eleanor Roosevelt is like a margarine influencer?

• 19:43Speaker 04

  Now just imagine her doing like the little influencer hand with the stick of margarine.

• 19:47Dan Pashman?

  Come with me as I go to the store to get some good luck margarine.

• 19:49Speaker 04

  Get ready with me with my margarine toast.

• 19:53Dan Pashman?

  In this episode, we also get into the rise of Crisco, the trans fat debacle of the 1990s, and of course, the panic around seed oils today. In the end, we ask, what does all this say about food culture and about America? It's a really good one. I hope you'll check it out. It's up now. Okay, back to Samin Nosrat, whose new cookbook is Good Things. Even as Samin was questioning everything after salt, fat, acid, heat, she had a book deal for the follow-up she had to fulfill. She had multiple concepts for it that she ended up throwing out. She even tried to cancel the book contract. She really was lost, not just emotionally, but creatively. Then during one of her lowest points, she had an epiphany. She was watching Taco Chronicles on Netflix and there was this episode about tacos al pastor,

• 20:37Dan Pashman?

  the ubiquitous Mexico City taco filled with pork cooked on a spit. For the first time in a long time, Samin felt inspired.

• 20:45Speaker 01

  Because I had sort of lost my appetite and lost my own like direction and like even curiosity. If there was a whiff of interest or curiosity, I was like, holding on to that for dear life. So the fact that I was like, wow, these tacos look good. I was like, I wish I could make that at home. Turns out that premise is just inherently flawed. Like you cannot translate like this thing that cooks on a spit in Mexico

• 21:10Speaker 01

  to your house oven. It's just, it's never going to be the same. So I was probably on my third or fourth try. Every time I was doing like a four or six pound pork shoulder or whatever. But I live by myself. So that means every failure is something then that I'm going to have to eat for the next, you know, 37 meals.

• 21:29Dan Pashman?

  So every bite is kind of a reminder that you haven't done the thing you were trying to do.

• 21:33Speaker 01

  I'm already depressed. And so there's just this way that like, by the time I had gotten this one into the oven, I knew it wasn't right. And my friend texted right when I was putting it in the oven. She said, can I come over? And I said, oh yeah, I'm just ruining some pork. She's like, what's going on? And I was like, oh, I'm just, I can't do this. And it's, and then I'm going to have to eat the whole thing by myself. And she was like, you can bring it over to our house. Like we'll help you eat it. And so this felt like this lifeline. I was like, really? I can bring dinner over to your house and you'll let me do that? So it was a perfectly good meal, but it was just more than that. Like there was just warmth to the night. There were kids being chaotic. It was so comfortable and cozy. We all, I think, had a really nice time and we were like, should we do this again next week? And they said, yeah.

• 22:15Speaker 01

  So we just kept doing it and it would just became sort of an anchor in our week. And we were probably doing it for like eight months before it really clicked. Like, oh my gosh, like this is a weekly dinner ritual, which is something I have been dying to create in my life and for a million different excuses, not been able to over the last several years. And I had always envisioned that it would be something I do, I host, it's at my house. And this was different than that. And I think because it looked different, it hadn't occurred to me that it was the same thing.

• 22:46Dan Pashman?

  Right. Why was that something you wanted so badly?

• 22:49Speaker 01

  I think in a way it actually speaks to the fact that even before I could see it, I knew. I was not rooted in my own life and I was really lonely. I have always just focused on my work first. That's a really sad and lonely way to be. Even when the work is things that you want to do and actually quite social and you have a big social circle around it. There's an emptiness underneath.

• 23:17Dan Pashman?

  Samin already had a model for a weekly dinner ritual. Her friend Greta had been hosting one for years in New York. And Greta became almost philosophical about the dinners, thinking about them as a real anchor of her life. That's why Greta gave Samin a 1951 book called The Sabbath by Rabbi Abraham Joshua Heschel. He talks about the importance of the Sabbath as a weekly ritual, a time for rest and connection. Samin didn't grow up with any religious tradition, but she grabbed on to this concept. And she came to understand that weekly dinner with her friends as this same sort of sanctified weekly ritual.

• 23:50Speaker 01

  And it felt like if I could have a way that guaranteed that I saw the people I love on a regular basis in a non-stressful way. I think that that's part of it, too, is people keep calling these Monday dinners like dinner parties. And I'm like, no, no, no, no, no. It's not a dinner party because a dinner party is something like.

• 24:09Dan Pashman?

  It sort of suggests a formality.

• 24:10Speaker 01

  It's an idea, like a formel.

• 24:11Dan Pashman?

  There's invitations that go out.

• 24:12Speaker 01

  There's like, you think for days or weeks about the menu you're going to serve. And this is not that. This is actually everyday life. And that's exactly what makes it so special.

• 24:24Dan Pashman?

  These dinners became the heart of Samin's new book, Good Things. In it, she writes about the joys of eating in community and she lays out how you can build your own weekly food ritual. She also gets really personal throughout the book. It's almost like that kitchen friend of yours has become a closer friend. Now she's confiding in you. She tells you about her depression, stories from her childhood, details of her Monday dinners and lessons she's learned. Just as with salt, fat, acid, heat, Samin knew good things had to be in her voice, her perspective on cooking. But it is a departure in one critical way, which I asked Samin about. A lot of the approach of salt, fat, acid, heat was this is like a cooking class in book form. It's less about a collection of recipes. It's going to teach you the principles of cooking.

• 25:07Dan Pashman?

  You even like actively resisted having recipes in the book. This new book, though, has recipes.

• 25:14Speaker 01

  Surprise.

• 25:16Dan Pashman?

  So what happened?

• 25:18Speaker 01

  I'm a hypocrite.

• 25:20Dan Pashman?

  Yeah, you write that at times putting together a book of recipes felt like a betrayal to yourself and your readers.

• 25:26Speaker 01

  Yes, it's never been lost on me that I have railed my entire professional career about recipes and then produced a book of recipes. However, I think two things happened. One, I always believed that once people learned these four elements, sort of how to use them, that it would change the way that they cooked for the better in like a big, big way. And for by and large, that has been the response is people say things like, this changed the way I cook. I'm such a better cook. But I think what I didn't anticipate is that also in these last eight years, there has been a lot of feedback of, wow, like your buttermilk chicken, we make that every week.

• 26:09Speaker 01

  Or the lasagna is my birthday meal. The individual recipes have found meaning for people in their lives, too.

• 26:16Dan Pashman?

  But it seems like in some ways, this book is still not a totally traditional collection of recipes because there is still built into it a lot of opportunity for improvisation. There's a lot of recipes that are like, throw these things together. It doesn't have a measurement at all. And so I feel like there is still a kernel of that idea.

• 26:32Speaker 01

  I'm always me. You know what I mean? Like, I'm never gonna not be me. The places where I give less detail or less instruction are places where I feel like it's actually less important.

• 26:43Dan Pashman?

  Right. When you write recipes like that, I think it's also trying to communicate to people like, it doesn't have to be perfect. There's more than one way to do this and you can still have great results. Which also sort of feels like you trying to talk yourself out of your own tendencies towards perfectionism.

• 27:00Speaker 01

  On many levels, that was the project of this book. You know, I'd have an idea for something. There's these quesadillas I started making where I would take Oaxaca string cheese and put it directly in the pan. And like let it, because it like browns and sizzles so beautifully.

• 27:15Dan Pashman?

  Like halloumi or something.

• 27:17Speaker 01

  And then, and then just put the tortilla on top. And then if I had some thing from the garden, a squash blossom or zucchini or corn or whatever, I would sprinkle it over the cheese, then put the tortilla. But then I'd get this like amazing, like super like crisp, golden brown cheese. I'd flip it. It was an open-faced quesadilla. And I was like, This does not need a recipe. Like, do you know what I mean? There's just, and I'm like, do people, people are gonna be like, she wrote a whole new book and she gave me a recipe for melon balls, carrot sticks, and an open-faced quesadilla. Like, this is recipe, this is cookbook?

• 27:48Dan Pashman?

  Like, how high is Samin?

• 27:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, totally.

• 27:51Speaker 01

  Like, this is not, what am I paying for, or whatever?

• 27:54Dan Pashman?

  Well, also, you know, not every book has to be Michelangelo's David.

• 27:57Speaker 01

  Totally.

• 27:57Dan Pashman?

  It could just make people happy, and that's also great. Samin sets up the book as her little box of treasures. So there are some of those smaller delights, like the open-faced quesadilla, or roasted almonds with fried sage, or a miso and labna onion dip. Oh, man, that sounds good. I want that one. There's even a little aside, not really a recipe, about olive oil fried bread. There's a whole section on cooking with mostly pantry staples. There are also more elaborate dishes, like peri-peri chicken, lasagna with homemade fresh pasta sheets, and cuckoo kopita, a Persian riff on spinach pie. When I picked up the book, I immediately zeroed in on one recipe in particular. You have a recipe for warm castel-vetrano olives.

• 28:38Speaker 01

  Oh, I see where you're going, Dan.

• 28:42Dan Pashman?

  Now, I love a castel-vetrano olive.

• 28:44Speaker 01

  I know you do.

• 28:45Dan Pashman?

  Probably my all-time favorite olive.

• 28:46Speaker 01

  Me too, it's my favorite.

• 28:47Dan Pashman?

  But your recipe calls for them unpitted. Now, we've debated this before.

• 28:51Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 28:52Dan Pashman?

  I only buy pitted olives.

• 28:54Speaker 01

  I know.

• 28:55Dan Pashman?

  I was just in Italy last week, and there was olives on the table, and I put one in my mouth. Of course, it has the pit inside. First of all, when the pit is inside the olive, it robs you of a lot of the experience of, like, biting through the olive to experience the meatiness, which is part of what I love about an olive.

• 29:11Speaker 01

  I like judging the meatiness of an olive by the distance my tooth gets to travel to the pit.

• 29:17Dan Pashman?

  But, you know, I want to bite through it.

• 29:18Speaker 01

  I understand.

• 29:19Dan Pashman?

  And I also feel like, just the process of having to navigate the pit distracts from the enjoyment of the flavor of the olive. Because now I'm like, what?

• 29:28Speaker 01

  How do you feel about cherries?

• 29:30Dan Pashman?

  I take the pits out of those, too.

• 29:31Speaker 01

  You pre-pit cherries?

• 29:32Dan Pashman?

  I have it, we have a cherry pitter in our house.

• 29:34Speaker 01

  Wait, you don't just eat a bowl of cherries?

• 29:36Dan Pashman?

  We have a cherry pitter in our house.

• 29:37Speaker 01

  I have a cherry pitter, too, but I use it when I make a cherry dessert.

• 29:40Dan Pashman?

  No, I take a bunch of cherries, I'll take like 20, 10 or 20 cherries.

• 29:43Speaker 01

  Whoa.

• 29:43Dan Pashman?

  I'll pit them all, and then I eat them, and I enjoy them very much.

• 29:46Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 29:48Dan Pashman?

  But anyway, these are all my objections to the pit. Number one, it takes away from the texture. Number two, takes away from the flavor. Number three, no graceful way to get rid of the pit.

• 29:55Speaker 01

  Amazing.

• 29:56Dan Pashman?

  How do you respond?

• 29:57Speaker 01

  Okay, I've come closer to your side.

• 29:59Dan Pashman?

  Okay.

• 30:00Speaker 01

  And even just last, literally last night, Greta, my Sunday dinner friend who I'm staying with, she now has two little kids and she was just saying, she's like, I only buy pit at Castel Vetrano's now. And guess what? Like, I use them so much more. I find myself adding them to salad. I find myself cooking with them.

• 30:19Dan Pashman?

  Cause you can grab a handful or a spoonful out of the, yeah.

• 30:22Speaker 01

  And I was like, oh, interesting point. I like that. I often have both.

• 30:27Dan Pashman?

  You're gonna come back in seven years to me and I'm gonna have fully swayed you.

• 30:29Speaker 01

  Yes, but I don't think it's ever gonna happen for cherries.

• 30:35Dan Pashman?

  You have seven salad dressings in the book and three uses for each, which I'm very excited about. I don't know why, but I cannot for the life of me make a good salad dressing.

• 30:44Speaker 01

  Why?

• 30:45Dan Pashman?

  I have followed recipes.

• 30:46Speaker 01

  It's cause you know the secret ingredient?

• 30:48Dan Pashman?

  What?

• 30:48Speaker 01

  Olive pits.

• 30:53Dan Pashman?

  That's what I'm doing wrong. But I love a decision tree. You have boiled spring vegetable matrix, roasted vegetable salad matrix, tomato salad matrix, summer salad matrix, all these different things where like, if you have this, use this or choose from this different category, mix and match. This to me feels very in keeping with salt, fat, acid, heat.

• 31:13Speaker 01

  Yeah. The thing I am still ruled by is very much like, how can I communicate to you all of the possibilities? And some things, like the dressing itself, might need a very like precise list of ingredients and like the order in which to combine them. But in general, in daily cooking in life, it sort of comes down to like, what's in my fridge?

• 31:37Dan Pashman?

  Right.

• 31:37Speaker 01

  Or what's in my pantry or whatever like? And so I wanted to sort of take into consideration. The actual variables in daily life.

• 31:48Dan Pashman?

  Right.

• 31:49Speaker 01

  And end up with something good for whatever your situation was. There's a lemon miso, like creamy lemon miso, sometimes poppy seed dressing. You can leave the poppy seeds out if you want. That dressing is so good. The idea of like, for me, limiting you to only one salad by saying like, mix it with these like little gems and put.

• 32:08Dan Pashman?

  Right, it has to have these greens, it has to have this dressing.

• 32:10Speaker 01

  Makes me really sad because to me, I want you to know, man, this thing is awesome. I can use it 50, 100 million different ways in my house anytime it is so. But also I know it can be overwhelming to know how to pair things. So that was why I sort of came up with these decision trees to sort of hold you by the hand to take you toward that possibility so that whatever situation you're in, you can adapt to it pretty easily.

• 32:35Dan Pashman?

  I do feel like there's something about this cookbook that is in its own way, kind of revolutionary, which is how deeply personal it is. And you're really sharing a lot of yourself. How did you think about that part of it?

• 32:48Speaker 01

  Well, there were two parts of it. One is I have been through so much sort of up and down and gnarly stuff in the last several years that I felt like people need to know what I've been through. They need to know what I've been through so they understand why this is meaningful. But also I think a lot of how I found my way into an individual recipe, like even the introduction of the chicken chapter. I'm like, what is there to say about chicken? Like, I'm like, here's some chicken recipes. I like chicken, you like chicken, go cook them. And in the end, I had to just say, tell a story about like my favorite little moment when I'm cooking chicken is you've like roasted chicken, you carve it, you bring it to the table, you go back to the kitchen and you like pick all the stuff off the cart.

• 33:31Dan Pashman?

  Yes, yes.

• 33:32Speaker 01

  Before you sit down.

• 33:33Dan Pashman?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 33:33Speaker 01

  Which reminds me of like some of my favorite moments working in professional kitchens because professional cooks are always eating the little ends and bits of things, which are sometimes the best parts.

• 33:42Dan Pashman?

  For sure, yeah.

• 33:43Speaker 01

  You know, and I was like, this kind of shows you like what chicken sort of symbolizes for me. I have to give you something very personal to make it be unique.

• 33:56Dan Pashman?

  In a recent interview, Samin said that when she started the book tour for Good Things, she said a little prayer to herself that it would be different this time. In other words, she was praying that the new book wouldn't trigger the same sort of spiral that Salt, Fat, Acid, Heat did. Now, a few months later, she's at the end of the tour. So I asked her, has it been different this time?

• 34:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, you know, this is my very last interview before I go home.

• 34:19Dan Pashman?

  Congratulations.

• 34:20Speaker 01

  Thank you. And I survived. I'm tired. I'm chewed up for sure. But I'm not like worn down to the bone. I still have things I'm excited about. Yeah, I'm so excited to go home and see Father.

• 34:31Dan Pashman?

  Father being your dog.

• 34:36Speaker 01

  Father being my dog, yeah. It has been different and I'm really proud of myself.

• 34:39Dan Pashman?

  What do you attribute the difference to?

• 34:41Speaker 01

  I have so much more help than I had. I'm not, I don't feel alone in the way like that I did. I was really managing so much by myself. So now I have, I have help. Yeah, I have the grounding of a group of friends and a girlfriend. I have like people who are checking on my welfare. Not that, again, I have amazing friends, so it's not that people weren't checking on my welfare before. It's just that I'm more connected to that. When I go home, it's not like I'm gonna be like this sad place that I'm returning to that's been neglected. Like, there's care. I live in a community.

• 35:14Dan Pashman?

  You're more connected.

• 35:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, and also, I was more protective this time. Last time, I gave everybody everything that they wanted. I never said no. I sat after every book tour event and I signed books for three to five hours. I took pictures with every single person because I felt so amazing that anyone would care. And it still does feel so amazing, but now I know if I do that, I'll be sick. I need to rest. Like, so there was just a lot more protection this time.

• 35:42Dan Pashman?

  What have you added to your manifestation journal recently?

• 35:45Speaker 01

  Oh, man, you know what? I haven't opened it in a long ti-- I usually do it around my birthday, which was a couple weeks ago, and I haven't done it. So I've actually been thinking it's something I need to do. Sometimes I think it would be like really lovely to sort of like melt away and disappear into obscurity and never do anything and put it out in the world. But that makes me sad, I realize, because I wanna make stuff and I wanna give it to the world. So I will continue to do that. I think I need to spend some time like figuring out what that is and that'll go in the manifestation journal, like what I would like to do and make and what, how I would like to sort of shape my life in the next coming time.

• 36:21Speaker 01

  Thanks so much.

• 36:21Dan Pashman?

  That's a wrap. Thank you, Samin.

• 36:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, you're so, that was really lovely and you're so thoughtful and I really like talking to you.

• 36:27Dan Pashman?

  I appreciate it. Thank you. I always enjoy talking to you.

• 36:29Speaker 01

  I'm done!

• 36:30Dan Pashman?

  You're done. You survived. That's it. Crack open the champagne or whatever it is.

• 36:34Speaker 01

  Oh, Martinelli's.

• 36:35Dan Pashman?

  Yeah.

• 36:43Dan Pashman?

  That's Samin Nosrat. Her new book is Good Things: Recipes and Rituals to Share with People You Love. And hey, exciting news. If you subscribe to the Sporkful's email newsletter, we'll enter you into a giveaway to win the book. We'll be choosing one lucky winner to enter. All you get to do is sign up for our newsletter. If you're already on the list, you're already automatically entered into this and all of our giveaways. So sign up by December 23rd at sporkful.com/newsletter. Again, that's sporkful.com/newsletter. Open to US addresses only. Next week on the show, it's our second annual Salad Spinner Year in Review. Yasmin Tayak from The Atlantic and Helen Rosner from The New Yorker join me to talk about the year's biggest, wildest, and silliest food news, as well as their own picks for favorite and

• 37:28Dan Pashman?

  least favorite trends. That's next week. While you're waiting for that one, check out last week's episode. It is a survey of 150 years of cooking fat history in America, and I think it'll give you a lot to think about. And hey, did you know you can listen to the Sporkful on the SiriusXM app? Yes, the SiriusXM app, it has all your favorite podcasts, plus over 200 ad-free music channels curated by genre and era, plus live sports coverage. Does your podcasting app have that? And there's interviews with A-list stars and so much more. It's everything you want in a podcast app and music app all rolled into one. And right now, Sporkful listeners can get three months free of the SiriusXM app by going to siriusxm.com/sporkful. This episode was produced by me, along with managing producer- Emma Morgenstern. And senior producer-

• 38:13Dan Pashman?

  Andres O'Hara. It was edited by-

• 38:15Speaker 05

  Camille Stanley.

• 38:16Dan Pashman?

  Our engineer is- Jared O'Connell. Our interns are-

• 38:18Speaker 05

  Morgan Johnson.

• 38:20Dan Pashman?

  And-

• 38:20Speaker 05

  Jasmine Sutherland.

• 38:21Dan Pashman?

  Music help from Black Label Music. The Sporkful is a production of SiriusXM Podcasts. Our executive producer is Camille Stanley. Until next time, I'm Dan Pashman.

• 38:30Speaker 06

  And I'm Natomi Peters, living in Long Beach, California, reminding you to eat more, eat better, and eat more better.

• 38:50Speaker 01

  Now I want to do a deep dive on Dan and then do this to you, give you a dose of your own medicine.

• 38:57Dan Pashman?

  I'm ready. I'm ready.

• 38:58Speaker 01

  Great.

• 39:04Speaker 03

  This podcast is supported by Nurtac ODT Remedy Pant. We know you didn't ask for an interruption, but migraine doesn't wait for the right moment to interrupt either. It just barges in, takes your time and throws everything off. So when migraine takes your time, take Nurtac. It's for the acute treatment of migraine with or without aura in adults. Nurtac can provide pain relief in two hours, which can last up to two days. Ask your healthcare provider if Nurtac is right for you because your time is for you, not migraine. Don't take if allergic to Nurtac ODT. Allergic reactions can occur even days after use. Get help right away for trouble breathing, rash, swelling of face, mouth, tongue or throat. High blood pressure and Raynaud's syndrome can occur. Get help for high blood pressure, numbness, coolness, pain or color changes in fingers

• 39:49Speaker 03

  and toes. Common side effect is nausea. For full prescribing information, call 1-833-4-NUR-TAC or visit nurtec.com. All right, back to your podcast playlist or whatever's keeping you going today.

• 40:04Speaker 07

  Meet Craig. Craig manages the local haunted house. He's got a lot to juggle. Tangled cobwebs, flickering lights and scheduling vampires.

• 40:13Speaker 08

  Now it's time for your break. I'll break when I'm dead. You are dead. That's like your whole thing. Here, have a Kit Kat. Fine, 15 minutes, but no longer. Good, I'm grabbing a Kit Kat too.

• 40:28Speaker 07

  Nobody should have to wait until they're dead to take a break. Have a break, have a Kit Kat.