How Scandalous Were Masquerade Balls?

Faces covered, identities unknown - masquerade balls sound like a place of anonymity and, therefore, SCANDAL. But how true is this in the 18th Century? Could people sneak in unrecognised like they do in Bridgerton? And how much would people be misbehaving inside? Kate is joined for this particular dance by Dr Meghan Kobza, author of 'Masquerade: Unmasking Georgian London'. Sign up to History Hit for hundreds of hours of original documentaries, with a new release every week and ad-free podcasts. Sign up at https://www.historyhit.com/subscribe. You can take part in our listener surveyhere https://www.surveymonkey.co.uk/r/6FFT7MK. All music from Epidemic Sounds. Betwixt the Sheets: History of Sex, Scandal & Society is a History Hit podcast. Voting is now open for the Listener's Choice Award at this year's Podcast Awards! UK & Ireland listeners please place your vote on the Spotify mobile app here: https://open.spotify.com/s/xhg6PJa Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Kate Lister?

  Do you want even more shocking and scandalous history? Like why the ancient Greek statues had such small manhoods? Or what went on behind closed doors in the Georgian era? Well, sign up to History Hit, where you can see me discover the scandalous side of history, as well as hundreds of hours of original documentaries, plus new releases every week, covering everything from prehistoric Scotland to the Treaty of Versailles. Sign up to join me in locations around the world and explore the past. Just visit historyhit.com/subscribe.

• 0:37Speaker 01

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• 1:19Kate Lister?

  Hello, my lovely Betwixters. It's me, Kate Lister. Welcome back once again to Betwix the Sheets. But before we can go any further, I do have to remind you that this is an adult podcast, spoken by adults, other adults, but it's not just things that'll do it. Right, on with it.

• 1:35Kate Lister?

  We are going to a party, Betwixters, and we are going incognito. Now, what are your options? Wear your caps really low, a fake moustache, full facial surgery, or a teeny tiny little mask just across your eyes? That'll do it. Nobody will know it's us for sure. Welcome to the world of the Georgian masked ball.

• 2:18Kate Lister?

  Hello and welcome back to Betwixt the Sheets, the history of sex scandal in society with me, Kate Lister. Gilt carriages, heavy dresses, sparkling jewellery, expensive tickets, glittering chandeliers and masks, so many masks, a mask on every face. In this episode, we are going inside the masquerade balls of Georgian London and we are joined by the fabulous Dr Megan Kobza, author of a brand new book, The Masquerade: A History of Extravagance and Intrigue. And I want to know if these parties are as popular as they seem in TV shows, if the people really were anonymous, and if they ever used that anonymity to misbehave. Not that I'd do that, not that you would do that, but you know, some people might do

• 3:03Kate Lister?

  that. Have you got your dancing shoes on? Right, well then let's do this. Well, hello and welcome to Betwixt the Sheets. It's only Megan Kobza, how are you doing?

• 3:20Speaker 02

  I am wonderful.

• 3:21Kate Lister?

  Are you riding high on the success of your latest publication?

• 3:25Speaker 02

  Oh, well, it's not successful yet because publication date is May 12th and then the launch date is May 21st. And I have to say, I think that this complements your book pretty well, from what I can tell.

• 3:38Kate Lister?

  I think it does, doesn't it?

• 3:39Speaker 02

  They sort of go hand in hand, or hand another part of the body, depending on how you want to look at it. But yeah, it's really exciting. I have never done anything like this before and it's like little baby Megan's dreams coming true and I cry about it publicly, more than I should.

• 3:55Kate Lister?

  Oh, I was going to say, how are you feeling about it? But that kind of sums it up.

• 4:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's like tears of joy and disbelief.

• 4:03Kate Lister?

  Yeah.

• 4:04Speaker 02

  Because also like Bridgerton coming out, season four with a masquerade.

• 4:09Kate Lister?

  Perfect.

• 4:10Speaker 02

  Who could have asked for better timing? And yeah, it's just, it's really exciting and cool to go through this whole process.

• 4:17Kate Lister?

  Give us the full title.

• 4:18Speaker 02

  The Masquerade: A History of Extravagance and Intrigue.

• 4:23Kate Lister?

  Oh, I love it. Good title.

• 4:25Speaker 02

  I know.

• 4:26Kate Lister?

  Did you choose the title?

• 4:27Speaker 02

  No, my title was much worse than that.

• 4:30Kate Lister?

  So let's talk about the story of your book, Masquerades, Meghan. How did you get interested in this? First of all, well, we'll take one back. What is a masquerade?

• 4:39Speaker 02

  That's a great question. It is an entertainment where people go, hopefully with their faces masks, but they could also be disguised using cosmetics. So like, it doesn't have to be a physical mask, but in most cases, at least in the 18th century, which is what I work on, it means that you're wearing a mask on your face. But I think later, we'll probably get into what sorts of cosmetics people might have used and how offensive they might have been. But generally, it meant that your face was covered in some way by something to disguise you.

• 5:15Kate Lister?

  And it's a party.

• 5:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, a costume of some sort. Drinks were to be had, music was there, dancing was there, but disguise, or the promise of disguise and anonymity was the, one of the main attractions that differentiated it from other things of the time.

• 5:32Kate Lister?

  And we've seen it in Bridgerton, and we've seen it in, I'm trying to think of other representations that's not Eyed Wise Shut, because that definitely wasn't 18th century.

• 5:40Speaker 02

  No, but Casanova with Heath Ledger.

• 5:42Kate Lister?

  Yes.

• 5:43Speaker 02

  And, I mean, Phantom of the Opera, which is 19th century, but...

• 5:48Kate Lister?

  Marie Antoinette with Kirsten Dunst. She paints on a mask, doesn't she?

• 5:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, there's, oh, there's one more that I can't think of. Harlots has masquerade in it.

• 5:57Kate Lister?

  Do we still have masked balls? That's still a thing? I've never been invited. I probably wouldn't have been invited to one in the 18th century either, but I've certainly never been invited to one today.

• 6:05Speaker 02

  So today, and I'm from Chicago, even though I live in Newcastle, I don't sound like a Geordie, because I'm not, but there are usually masquerade balls around Halloween, because Halloween's a big thing in the States. And they're usually fundraisers, which means you have to have a nice pricey ticket slapped on to your access, which isn't different from what the 18th century was, at least in the first 90 years of the 1700s. So we see that, like, that is a thing, like, the Chicago Lyric Opera has a masquerade. Sometimes it's New Year's, sometimes it's Halloween, other places will be. Use them as fundraisers for things. And then in London, I've actually been to one in London.

• 6:45Kate Lister?

  Woo.

• 6:45Speaker 02

  But it was like one of those immersive things where it was Swan Lake Ballet slash masquerade dinner.

• 6:52Kate Lister?

  That sounds intense.

• 6:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 6:54Kate Lister?

  So you're having dinner, a masquerade and a ballet all at the same time?

• 6:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, but it's like the immersive where they like dance across your dinner table.

• 7:01Kate Lister?

  Oh, I don't think I could handle that.

• 7:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, it was an experience.

• 7:04Kate Lister?

  That sounds intense. Like you're trying to eat your, your starfish and there's somebody doing a plie on the table.

• 7:10Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 7:10Kate Lister?

  Oh, okay. All right, I'd give it a whirl. So when did you first become interested in studying masquerade?

• 7:17Speaker 02

  It was sort of accidental. My, so this is based on my PhD. And initially I was like, I'm going to do a PhD on anonymity because that was what my master's was on. And in print culture and in the 17th century. And that is none of what my PhD was actually about. Surprise, surprise. So to do that, I was like, oh, I'm going to start, I'll use text sources. I'll think about the masquerade because people go to the masquerade and they're anonymous and what they can do at the masquerade and transgress boundaries and all sorts of raunchy stuff. So that was the first dip I took into research was the masquerade and Terry Castle, who is a brilliant academic out of Stanford, her book was what I encountered. And it actually, it's the 40th anniversary this year. So it's sort of

• 8:02Kate Lister?

  Oh, happy, happy birthday book.

• 8:04Speaker 02

  Timing for my masquerade to come out 40 years following from hers. Because her book, I couldn't have written mine without hers. Like, I couldn't. And her book was all about literature and theory of what the 18th century masquerade meant. And what did a lot of people to do and how transgressive it was. I was like, this is perfect. This is exactly what I want. So I started digging into newspapers and thankfully we have digital resources like the Bernie collection online. Which you can get at the, you know, you can access the British Library if you fancy. And I just started searching the word masquerade. And I have a spreadsheet with like 3,000 newspaper entries with masquerade in it.

• 8:47Speaker 02

  And it was really interesting because I was starting to get some of the things that she cited in her book. And then I was getting other things that were not in her book. And granted, technology has come a long way. So access to sources is very different now than it was in 1986. But I was like, this is a different story than what.

• 9:10Speaker 02

  Castle has presented and both things, both hers and mine are right. There's no one is better than the other, one is wrong, one is right, because literature and history coexist and they tell us similar stories, but have different nuances to them. So I found that these entertainments were really expensive and it wasn't everyone. You couldn't sneak in. There weren't as many dirty deeds going on as we thought. There wasn't as much gender bending as we might have thought. There was, there was definitely some of all of these things, but maybe not to the extent that literature portrayed it as or satirical print.

• 9:47Kate Lister?

  So was it really that you'd go to a party and you were wearing a mask and just nobody would know who you were at all?

• 9:54Speaker 02

  Absolutely not.

• 9:55Kate Lister?

  If you try and like, imagine what that would be like, like today, everybody, you just get an invitation, you're going to go somewhere, you're going to have a mask on and literally nobody's going to know who you are and you're not going to know who anyone else is either. I'm already thinking people are going to misbehave.

• 10:08Speaker 02

  So the first thing is the early masquerades were a mix of invitation and tickets. If you're invited, granted, you're probably gonna-

• 10:17Kate Lister?

  You know who you are then, you've been invited.

• 10:19Speaker 02

  Right, you're on a guest list, but if you're buying a ticket, that's slightly different because in some regards, so with the tickets, the early tickets to the Opera House, the King's Theatre, which was in Haymarket, that was managed by a subscription list, which means your name had to be on the list, which means you were a subscriber to the opera, which means you're coming from money. And the tickets to the masquerade were the most expensive form of entertainment you could buy. Operas were significantly more affordable than a masquerade ticket.

• 10:51Kate Lister?

  What are we talking here? How much would it cost?

• 10:53Speaker 02

  Between two and 400 pounds.

• 10:55Kate Lister?

  That's quite a lot for a party, isn't it?

• 10:56Speaker 02

  For one masquerade. And that's just your ticket. That's not how much it costs to get a costume.

• 11:02Kate Lister?

  Yeah.

• 11:02Speaker 02

  Or to get your transport, because you are not traipsing through the streets of London in some totally decked out diamond clad dress to then be mugged. And how about, you know, someone, so now we're talking, there's all these layers of pricing that are coming in and it creates this air of exclusivity, but also because not everyone can go, you don't know what's going on behind closed doors. Hmm. Until the newspapers tell you.

• 11:27Kate Lister?

  This is like playing with anonymity then. This is like, like the kind of the mystique of anonymity, but really, really, it's not that hard to find out who's behind each mask.

• 11:37Speaker 02

  No, and a couple of things on that. One, just like Bridgerton, there is a ceremonial unmasking. I don't know if they had a gong like Bridgerton did, but like-

• 11:46Kate Lister?

  Not counting that then. That's not, that's not a masked ball in my book.

• 11:49Speaker 02

  No.

• 11:50Kate Lister?

  That's a partially masked ball.

• 11:51Speaker 02

  The masks come off at dinner, at supper, excuse me. And so around midnight or one o'clock in the morning, the supper rooms would open and all the masks would come off. But also masks were not necessarily made of the nicest things. Today, when we think of masks, Venetian masks tend to be like a papier-mache or a leather, which are both much better for your skin. And some of those types of masks existed in the 18th century, but there were also wax masks. And for anyone who knows anything about 18th century wax, it's disgusting. It's not refined. It stinks. It melts really easily. It depends on what it's made of. If it's like part animal fat, good luck.

• 12:32Kate Lister?

  Good.

• 12:33Speaker 02

  Right? And like masquerades are hot. And now you have this thing on your face and it's like on your hot face, right? So like, how much do you really want to keep your mask on your face, especially if it's wax?

• 12:42Kate Lister?

  Not much.

• 12:43Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 12:44Kate Lister?

  So when's the first masked ball in Britain that we know of anyway, that we've got records for?

• 12:49Speaker 02

  This is a hard question. So court masks existed, I mean, back with like Henry VIII, Elizabeth I.

• 12:56Kate Lister?

  Oh, yeah, yeah.

• 12:56Speaker 02

  Those were-

• 12:57Kate Lister?

  He loved dressing up, didn't he?

• 12:58Speaker 02

  Yes. And with Inigo Jones, there were some quite provocative costumes that graced the court masks, but those were more scripted and allegorical and all hail the king sort of vibes going on. Whereas the masquerade was an entertainment where it was more open because you could buy a ticket. And so the first one that I've come across was 1711.

• 13:24Kate Lister?

  Right.

• 13:24Speaker 02

  On the south side of the Thames. And that didn't seem to get rave reviews. So they sort of shriveled up. And then there was the Duke d'Homme, who was the French ambassador who came to London in seventeen thirteen to celebrate the treaty he tracked. So joy between England and France, like, that's a thing, apparently. And during his time in London, he was given the use of apartments in Somerset House, which today, oh, my gosh, you go there and it's overwhelming. It's beautiful. It's one of my favorite places to go. The courtyard is stunning. You're surrounded by neoclassical architecture, these huge impressive buildings, and it sits right between the Strand and the Thames. When Louis was there, he, it didn't look like that. It was

• 14:09Speaker 02

  still very nice, but it was more shambly than that, sort of like a mixture of different buildings, very Whitehall style. And he decided to host masquerades. They were popular in the court, the French court. And so he transported that over. I was like, hey, let me show you a good time. Let me show you French hospitality and taste and elegance and host you all, all the aristocrats, in my quarters. Give you some food, some music, something to talk about. And at first, we didn't really know how they were going to go, but they ended up being a success. And he had three or four masquerades in Somerset House during his residency in London.

• 14:46Kate Lister?

  Oh, so he kind of revived it, brought it over. Why was the first one? Why didn't they like it? What were the reviews saying? Too masked, too masky?

• 14:54Speaker 02

  I don't know. I think because it was associated with Spring Gardens, which eventually like turns into Vauxhall, and that was associated with the Stuarts. I don't know if that sort of tainted the reputation. So I think because it was maybe associated more with a lower group of people, that then when like the French ambassador comes over and is like, hey, look at this cool thing we're doing. Now it's French, and it's exclusive, and it's a way to show off what you're wearing to everyone around you and to be creative, but also like a little scandalous. And then that gets picked up and commercialized by Johann Heidegger when he comes over to England and becomes the manager of the King's Opera House.

• 15:35Speaker 02

  And seventeen thirteen is when he starts seeing this happening. And then he starts slowly building them into his social calendar at the Opera House.

• 15:45Kate Lister?

  So what were these early masked balls like? Then what was the French ambassador? What was his party like? Do we know much about it?

• 15:53Speaker 02

  There's a really great, I think it's a letter, like a correspondence record book from Catherine Percival, and she goes, she goes to one of these. And she talks about how lavish the rooms were. There's silver glinting on the walls where candles are being held and there's food everywhere. There are people who are wearing all sorts of different dresses disguised as sort of eastern figures, allegorical figures. So we have like a Diana, right, with her moon on her little headpiece and a bow and arrow and-

• 16:29Kate Lister?

  Pretty bougie then.

• 16:30Speaker 02

  Yeah. And of course, she recognizes like five people straight off the bat with, with their masks on. And she's like, oh, so and so was wearing this dress, which was made of this, which looked wonderful. And so and so was wearing this with her hair down and styled in this way. And like, yeah.

• 16:43Kate Lister?

  What do they mean by masks? Is it like sort of open to interpretation? Like, what are we talking here? We're talking to like the bottom half of the face, like a COVID mask? Or are we talking like the top half? We know like the eyes cut out like, like a highwayman or like maybe, maybe the full face just, you can't see anything at all.

• 17:00Speaker 02

  Great question. This, they're not COVID masks.

• 17:03Kate Lister?

  Okay.

• 17:03Speaker 02

  Your mouth could be exposed, depending on what kind you're wearing. So generally, the part of your face that was almost always covered is like nose to forehead.

• 17:12Kate Lister?

  Right.

• 17:13Speaker 02

  Right. So like an eye mask would be like a Columbina style mask. Or you could wear an eye mask with a piece of silk coming down from it. There's actually an existing one in the Museum of London, which I haven't gotten to like touch, but I've seen pictures of. And those are the ones that appear in lots of satirical prints from the 18th century. We see these masks. And if you think about it, like the silk, if you want to eat, you could just sort of pick it up if you wanted to, but it does conceal you fully. There's also a mask that's called the bauta, which is very creepy looking and it has its roots in Venice. It's like this big, white, very plain looking mask that is also kind of terrifying because it

• 17:56Speaker 02

  doesn't have any features. It has the nostrils cut out and has the eye holes cut out. And it is essentially a big, white, I almost want to call it, if you laid it flat, it would be like a big white rectangle that then you would wrap around your face. But it has, you know, the nose and the cheekbones and the eyes. So you can still, it's like a face. But it comes down to-

• 18:16Speaker 02

  Depending on the size of your face and the size of the mask, it covers your mouth and completely like wipes out any sign of your face apart from your eyes. Those were not massively popular in British masquerades. But because the masquerade also has roots in Venetian culture, it did make appearances and you do see it occasionally in satirical prints. And you hear people talk about them, whether it's in correspondence or you see them in bills of sale from masquerade warehouses. So it just, yeah, depended.

• 18:47Kate Lister?

  Why did they become so popular? I mean, were they, they were big in France and they were big in, was it Germany you said? And then, and then they caught on here. Were we like a late bloomer to this? And why did they become so popular?

• 18:58Speaker 02

  I think that, so the court culture in, in, in Britain was different than the court culture in other places. And the masquerades in the, in the other countries in Europe or the other states in Europe that were hosting them, they were all in the court. So we have, you know, the King of Denmark is hosting masquerades in his court. We have the Spanish court hosting masquerades, the French court hosting masquerades. The Georges and Anne are not hosting masquerades. George the first and George the second both loved a good masquerade. George the third, absolutely. George the third was like, do not even talk to me about that.

• 19:36Kate Lister?

  Was he the serious? He was quite serious before he went a bit bonkers, wasn't he? He was, okay, right. So, yeah, he's not a fan, but the other, the others are.

• 19:43Speaker 02

  Yes. And so it's interesting. I think because Heidegger sort of snaps them up and commercializes them. One, it takes the onus off the court to be responsible for these. But two, it wasn't necessarily in their style. So the London masquerade is, as far as I've found, the first one that is commercial in that you can buy a ticket.

• 20:05Kate Lister?

  Okay.

• 20:05Speaker 02

  Despite the other limitations of like price and subscription list. You can actually buy a ticket and you don't have to be in the court to go.

• 20:17Kate Lister?

  I'll be back with Meg after this short break.

• 20:27Kate Lister?

  Hello Betwixters, I am jumping in here because I have some very exciting news. Betwixt the Sheets has set up camp on YouTube. That's right, it took us a while, but we are there now. So if you are the kind of person who likes to see your podcasts as well as hear your podcasts, you can now go and find us right there and the link is in the show notes. And please remember to like and subscribe because the people in charge of them really do like that. Right, let's get on with it.

• 21:10Kate Lister?

  Who could buy tickets though? I mean, in theory, it's open to everybody, but like, is it really open to everybody?

• 21:16Speaker 02

  No, it's the top 1%, if even that.

• 21:20Kate Lister?

  Okay, we're just pricing them out. But if it's a masked ball, maybe you could just show up with a mask on and just, you know, sneak your way in.

• 21:25Speaker 02

  You would think so, like Sophie and Bridgerton. But they had guards at the doors that were checking tickets. And in most instances, you had to either sign your ticket or put your wax seal on your ticket. And if you, so if you got two tickets and you brought a guest, you had to like sign for them as well. So again, this whole sense of like, no one knows who's here. Yes, we do, you have to sign your ticket and we have a guest list. So.

• 21:52Kate Lister?

  Was there much competition for the tickets? Is it like Glastonbury, like, you know, that it's sold out within a minute or something like that? Was it, was it like that?

• 22:00Speaker 02

  Not initially and not really with Heidegger's masquerades. I mean, there were anywhere from like 800 to 1,000 people at these things. So like, they were big. But it's not until 1768. So the masquerades disappear for a chunk of years in the 1750s and 1760s because there are two earthquakes in London.

• 22:21Kate Lister?

  Really? I didn't know that.

• 22:23Speaker 02

  Yeah. So 1755, the masquerades disappear. The last one, like, there's this huge movement to get rid of them. The last one is, I think, like, January something, 1756, and then they're gone until 1768. There are small ones in private estates that are going on for the elite, but nothing like what they had been at the King's Theatre. So 1768, George III is now king and his cousin, the King of Denmark, Christian VII, comes over. And Christian VII is like, oh, I'm just gonna have this tiny little visit. It's just gonna be really quiet, quick, incognito. No one needs to know. It's me, blah, blah, blah. Does not stick to his word at all. Oh, my God, Christian is so traumatic.

• 23:08Speaker 02

  And he stays way longer than he should. George III is like, I think it's time for you to leave. Goodbye. Here's a party. Goodbye. Christian VII is like, no, if I'm going out, I'm going out on my terms.

• 23:20Kate Lister?

  Yeah.

• 23:20Speaker 02

  And I'm holding a masquerade. So Christian hosts this outrageous masquerade at the King's Theatre. Unfortunately, Heidegger is dead by this point, but there is someone who might have been in attendance who then picks up the masquerade and sort of carries them on into the 1770s. Anyway, the 1768 masquerade was invitation only. However, people who couldn't go were selling their tickets on the black market.

• 23:46Kate Lister?

  Really? Like ticket scouts?

• 23:49Speaker 02

  Yes. For up to 30 guineas. And if you give me a second, I can look up how much that was, because I feel like 30 guineas is, like, stupid expensive, even today.

• 24:00Kate Lister?

  That's like the average footman, I think, or servant was earning like five guineas a year.

• 24:04Speaker 02

  Oh, if even that, yeah.

• 24:06Kate Lister?

  If even that. So this is like, like, multiple times a working-class person's yearly wage.

• 24:12Speaker 02

  Yes. I mean, you're sort of like average gentleman, bachelor of good standing, who was on the elite scale was like 500 pounds a year. All right. So 31 pounds, close to 30 yinny's is 4,583 pounds today.

• 24:29Kate Lister?

  See, that's it's a lot of money.

• 24:31Speaker 02

  That's what people were looking on the black market. They were selling these for because one, it's the first enormously popular masquerade to happen in years because they'd been gone. But two, it's hosted by the King of Denmark. So it has like double weight on its head for people wanting to go.

• 24:47Kate Lister?

  Of course. And did celebrities go to these things? I mean, you know, I know you're not supposed to know because they wear masks, but like, you know, would you have known?

• 24:54Speaker 02

  Yes. Yeah. Actually, David Garrick, who is a very popular actor and writer at, well, playwright at the time, is going to, he's at the King of Denmark's masquerade. And then the Duchess of Devonshire, who's another big name, she goes to some, not as many. But we do see that the cream of the crop or the influencer crowd are making appearances at masquerades.

• 25:18Kate Lister?

  The, the, the it girls and boys. Wasn't the story like 1801 with, with, was it Kitty Courtenay?

• 25:24Speaker 02

  Yes. Yeah. So this is one of my favorites. So Kitty, who is the Earl of Devon. His name is William and he has his 13 sisters who affectionately call him Kitty, which is what I call him because I feel like I'm his sister, even though I'm not, because I've worked on him quite a bit. And he goes to a masquerade in 1801. He gets an invitation from Miss Morgan, who lives over in Kensington and he is going with his sister to the masquerade. And they are all dressed up and it's pouring rain, like it's miserable, miserable weather. So they're in their carriage, which is totally blinged out, as is Kitty's style. They go to the masquerade and there are people who are waiting outside the door in the rain.

• 26:06Speaker 02

  He's like, what is going on? So they get up to the door. He's like, go carriage, go back. We don't need you anymore. We're here. And he goes up to the door. He presents their tickets, their invitations. And the porter is like, mm mm, sorry. These are fake. They're forged. You can't come in. And he's like, what are you talking like, it is pouring rain. You're seriously going to make me be out here with these other people. So the other people he's with, one of them gets to go in because he, he's a Harlequin and he finds someone inside that he knows and like flags her down through the window or something. I don't know. And she comes out and like claims him and brings him into the masquerade. Kitty is like, this is ridiculous. I want to talk to Miss Morgan. Surely this is a huge mistake. We should be inside. Anecdote to this. Kitty is very protective

• 26:51Speaker 02

  of his sisters. He is very much about putting their best interest first. He rescues one of his sisters from a fire and ends up with like permanent scarring on his hand. And I think part of his face, it like, he is very, very concerned about them. And so his, it's him and his sister out in the rain. Like, blah, how horrible. Yeah, I find it's in the spring, so it might not have been too cold, but it's still unpleasant. And when you think about Georgian fashion and how many layers they were wearing and just getting soaked through, right? So anyway, Miss Morgan comes to the door and she's like, oh, yeah, about that. Well, you didn't invite me to your sister's birthday, which is tomorrow. So I thought I would just send you a fake ticket.

• 27:34Speaker 02

  But if you invite me, oh, yeah. If you invite me to the birthday tomorrow, then maybe you can come in.

• 27:39Kate Lister?

  What a bitch. Did, did, did they get to go in?

• 27:42Speaker 02

  They did. Kitty's like, oh, my gosh, I'm so sorry. Of course you can come to the birthday party. And then they were allowed to go inside.

• 27:47Kate Lister?

  People in the 18th century had a weird sense of humor, didn't they?

• 27:50Speaker 02

  I know. But like, also like how vindictive and manipulative.

• 27:53Kate Lister?

  We love a petty queen, though. I mean, that's, that's something else, isn't it? So what would be going on at these things? I've got the idea, you know, that it's masks, different types of masks. But like, what would it's, you know, it's like the Met Ball. What goes on inside?

• 28:05Speaker 02

  I know. It, from what we can tell, between correspondence and newspapers and other things that are coming out of the time, print culture is obviously feeding into conceptions of what's going on. Correspondence is where I looked a lot of the time because that's coming from the people who went. There is some scandalous stuff ish that's happening, like people are quote, making love, but.

• 28:29Kate Lister?

  Because that's what I think is going on in there. I think it's all like, as soon as they get in, they're just ripping the bloomers off one another.

• 28:35Speaker 02

  Right. Okay. So what does, what does, what do you think I mean when I say making love at the masquerade?

• 28:40Kate Lister?

  Oh, see, there's, that's the question, isn't it? Is what, does that just mean a bit of light fingering, for example?

• 28:46Speaker 02

  That just means heavy flirting.

• 28:47Kate Lister?

  Oh, that's not what that means at all.

• 28:49Speaker 02

  No.

• 28:50Kate Lister?

  Right, okay.

• 28:51Speaker 02

  So that's the other thing, and I did not know that. So I'm reading some of these sources and it's like, we made love for two hours and I'm like, Jesus Christ.

• 29:00Kate Lister?

  Actually, no, I have, I have heard, I have read sources where they say that before, like, don't make love to me, and they literally just mean like saying flirty things.

• 29:08Speaker 02

  Stop flirting like me.

• 29:10Kate Lister?

  Wow.

• 29:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 29:11Kate Lister?

  Wow, you and I would have been grossly mistaken in the 18th century. That would have been an embarrassing incident.

• 29:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 29:18Kate Lister?

  For everybody concerned. So maybe they're not as transgressive as, as people thought they were then.

• 29:25Speaker 02

  No, so.

• 29:26Kate Lister?

  There's just a bit of flirting going on.

• 29:27Speaker 02

  It is, um, because I was talking to different historians about this to make sure I'm not, that I'm reading this the right way, because the 18th century language is, is different to our own, right? There are so many words that we use today that they didn't. There are words that they used then that we don't, or the same words that they use in different ways. So that was really insightful to learn that. However, there were opportunities, I'm sure, to sneak away into dark corners and do some dirty deeds. William Byrd the Second, who is a very problematic man for many, many re- misogyny, abuse, enslaver, like, you name it, he's a bad person. He's also a sex addict.

• 30:08Kate Lister?

  Right.

• 30:09Speaker 02

  And we know this because he had a very explicit diary, series of diaries, that were all written in shorthand. So then someone, sort of, you know, Sam's, Sam Peepsy.

• 30:22Kate Lister?

  Yeah.

• 30:22Speaker 02

  So someone decoded them, thankfully, and he like writes down every single sexual encounter of his life. And it's not necessarily the most explicit detail, but he is very frank.

• 30:33Kate Lister?

  Okay.

• 30:33Speaker 02

  So he'll be like, I rogered my mistress on the billiards table.

• 30:37Kate Lister?

  Nice.

• 30:37Speaker 02

  Or, I can't remember what he uses for masturbator, but like, right, he has his like language that he uses and you know, because it keeps reappearing and reappearing. And so at the masquerade, his main purpose is not to get off at the masquerade. His main purpose is to court this woman he wants to marry.

• 30:54Kate Lister?

  Okay.

• 30:54Speaker 02

  So if you have a sex addict going to a masquerade, I would think his priority is dirty deeds and dark corners.

• 31:01Kate Lister?

  Yep.

• 31:01Speaker 02

  But his like, his actual diaries tell us that was not the priority, which suggests to me the masquerade is about reputation management.

• 31:10Kate Lister?

  Yeah, it's a place to be ironically be seen.

• 31:13Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 31:14Kate Lister?

  But by not, but not be seen, this kind of like playing with anonymity.

• 31:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 31:19Kate Lister?

  So, yeah, they probably weren't all shagging one another like crazy if it's actually, if it's that elite and that expensive. Although I'm sure that it did go on.

• 31:27Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 31:28Kate Lister?

  What about sort of like gender bending? It sort of has that reputation too of like, we've all got masks on so we can play around and we can be more free with our sexuality. Was that true or is that nonsense as well?

• 31:38Speaker 02

  It is partially true. I feel like that's the case of everything with the masquerade. It's partially true. I have come across more examples of men dressing as women than women dressing as men.

• 31:50Kate Lister?

  Yep.

• 31:51Speaker 02

  So Horace Walpole, who is everyone's favorite 18th century gossip, and he has wonderful diaries that you can read online. He very frequently went to the masquerade as an old woman and like heckled people.

• 32:06Speaker 02

  But then people knew it was him because he, it was like this character that he sort of adopted. His cousin, actually Conway, it's really interesting, wanted to go to the masquerade dressed as the Duchess of Manchester, to the point where he like tried stalking her to figure out how she talked and dressed and moved. So that he could then imitate her at the masquerade. He was unsuccessful because he was trying to track her down at the theater. And Conway was like, I'm so sorry to disappoint. I'm just going to have to go as a general woman of fashion. So I ransacked my sister's wardrobe and took her peacock feathers.

• 32:41Kate Lister?

  Yeah, okay. That's, is that, is that what women generally wore? Peacock feathers?

• 32:47Speaker 02

  As part of their, yeah, they could accessorize in different ways as far as like hair went. And then I can't remember what else he wears, but he goes into the whole description of his outfit for Walpole in a letter that he writes back to him.

• 33:01Kate Lister?

  So there's some gender experimentation, but not quite as much as we've been led to believe.

• 33:07Speaker 02

  No, but actually Kitty, going back to Kitty, Kitty was theme sex attracted in the 18th century. And his effeminacy was not a secret. It wasn't something that he openly necessarily was like, come at me, boys. Because of his sisters, because he didn't want to ruin their prospects of marriage. But he very frequently dressed as very like different types of women at masquerades.

• 33:30Kate Lister?

  Okay.

• 33:31Speaker 02

  So it did give people the opportunity in a more socially acceptable way. I don't know if everyone approved of it, but if you were gonna do it, the masquerade was where you wouldn't get arrested for it.

• 33:43Kate Lister?

  Okay, so I'm gonna guess that there's a band playing and then there's music and there's dancing happening at these things.

• 33:50Speaker 02

  Yes, yes, there is music, depending on which masquerade you're at, there might just be one band or orchestra, there might be multiple. So Teresa Cornelis, who hosted masquerades in the 1770s and was the Empress of Pleasure.

• 34:07Kate Lister?

  What a title.

• 34:08Speaker 02

  I know, her house in Soho Square, which today is a Catholic church, had, she was known for her outrageous masquerades. She really like turns the volume up on them, literally, because she has more than one band playing at the same time.

• 34:22Kate Lister?

  God, imagine being her neighbor, you'd be so pissed.

• 34:25Speaker 02

  All her neighbors are actually the people who are going to the masquerades, so like, you know.

• 34:29Kate Lister?

  Okay, okay, so that's the way to get around them, isn't it, is they get invited?

• 34:32Speaker 02

  Wedgwood was actually one of her neighbors and Chippendale, so she's like, she's in a very fashionable area, yeah.

• 34:38Kate Lister?

  Okay, was there food and drink?

• 34:41Speaker 02

  Yes, so to begin with, and I would say the first big chunk of the 18th century, the food and drink are included in your ticket. And that could mean wine, it could mean bubbles, it could mean lemonade, it could mean tea, coffee, right? So you had like your choice and then supper generally was this huge sort of like buffet style, where you would go and pick like cold meats, all sorts of different confectionery was there, fruits, ices. So lots of different things to nibble on and choose. But as we move towards the end of the 18th century, as we start seeing the masquerade ticket prices lowering a little bit and shifting into pleasure gardens more so than physical buildings, the food and the drinks are add-ons.

• 35:24Kate Lister?

  See, that's what happens. What do they call it? The shitification of things. They start off really good and then, and then suddenly, before you know it, you're having to pay for your own champagne at a masked ball.

• 35:33Speaker 02

  I know.

• 35:34Kate Lister?

  Disgraceful.

• 35:34Speaker 02

  It's ridiculous.

• 35:40Kate Lister?

  I'll be back with Meg after this short break.

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• 36:29Speaker 04

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• 36:59Kate Lister?

  So these sound delightful. This sounds like loads of fun. This isn't people crossdressing and having big pile-up orgies in the middle of a room with just a mask on and peacock feathers. Why, why would anybody oppose these? These sound like quite sophisticated affairs.

• 37:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, sophisticated is a strong word to use for the masquerade, I think.

• 37:19Kate Lister?

  Sophisticated to me, but I'm a woman of very simple tastes.

• 37:22Speaker 02

  Um, I think so. One of the biggest concerns, the bishops of London just loved hating on the masquerade.

• 37:29Kate Lister?

  Why? Why did they not like it?

• 37:32Speaker 02

  It let people move outside their social boundaries. Even if it was in a very small way, it's still, so the elites were the ones who are doing it. But that is then setting an example for everyone below them. And so the bishops of London, there are three who really rail against the masquerade. And they are concerned, as are other people. Henry Fielding is one of them, who was justice of the peace at one point. And who writes about the masquerade in a lot of his literature. It's this concern that the world is going to turn upside down. It's going to actually go like a real life masquerade. People, you know, chimney sweeps will become kings and duchesses will become butchers. And like, everything will just get turned on its head.

• 38:17Kate Lister?

  Wow.

• 38:18Speaker 02

  And because of the earthquakes, and then there's in 1755, an enormous earthquake in Lisbon that completely destroys the city. So the fear is the masquerades are part of this site, this space of vice and adultery and corruption. And so London is next. And this fear that what's going on behind closed doors and this fear of, so it's Italian influence coming in, it's French influence, it's foreign influence coming in.

• 38:46Kate Lister?

  That's, that sounds more like us. That sounds like the kind of thing we'd get our knickers in a twist about. Okay, so it's, it's French, it's foreign, we don't know what's happening. And, and people might be misbehaving themselves. These are the main objections.

• 39:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, and you can't forget Italian, that was the other one.

• 39:03Kate Lister?

  Oh, and it's Italian, yeah, that'll do it.

• 39:04Speaker 02

  That people did not like.

• 39:05Kate Lister?

  Italians coming over here, showing us how to party. We're not putting up with this nonsense.

• 39:10Speaker 02

  But also for women, because now women are going, right? And that's one of, this is what's so frustrating to me. So yes, the masquerade was transgressive. No, perhaps not as much as we might think it was. But one of the complaints that keeps resurfacing is that women's reputations will be destroyed. Women will be destroyed, women of quality be ostracized.

• 39:36Kate Lister?

  Is there any truth to this fear? Was anybody ostracized? Was anyone's reputation destroyed?

• 39:41Speaker 02

  I have not come across a single person.

• 39:43Kate Lister?

  No.

• 39:44Speaker 02

  So it's this, my, one of the things that I emphasize in the, the book is that I think part of this is a way of controlling what women have access to and what they're allowed to do with their bodies, which sounds a little like today. Because, so like Elizabeth Chudley, who is my clickbait for the masquerade, because she goes with her boobs out, or.

• 40:10Kate Lister?

  Strong look, Elizabeth.

• 40:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, the illusion of her boobs out. It's very Chapel Rohn.

• 40:15Kate Lister?

  I was just gonna say, like I said, as soon as I said that, I was like, wow, that's a strong look. And then I thought, but actually they're still doing that today. Chapel Rohn did that. And I, I thought she looked incredible, actually. And I would love to have done that, but my tits are by my knees. So they wouldn't have looked at anything like that on me, but good for her.

• 40:32Speaker 02

  I know. I saw it and I was like, all, all I could think was Elizabeth Chudley. But I was like, this is such, it's such a look. It's such a strong look. It's such ownership of your body and your sexuality and your image and just sort of like a giant F you.

• 40:46Kate Lister?

  Yeah.

• 40:46Speaker 02

  To misogyny and patriarchy.

• 40:49Kate Lister?

  What was Elizabeth wearing?

• 40:50Speaker 02

  Elizabeth, what wasn't she wearing?

• 40:54Speaker 02

  We're not actually sure because there are lots of different existing depictions of her that you can actually, if you Google Elizabeth Chudley, Ithijaneia, because that's the character she went as, which is from Greek mythology. You'll see different ways that her costume is presented. So we don't actually know which of them, if any of them are even correct. But from the different written accounts that we have, whether it's Horace Walpole or Elizabeth Montague or the newspapers.

• 41:23Speaker 02

  Their accounts are that what she, whatever she was wearing was some sort of like drapy Greek antiquity style dress that was either non-existent on the top half or so nude and transparent that it gave the illusion of her not wearing anything.

• 41:43Kate Lister?

  Ooh.

• 41:43Speaker 02

  Yeah. So she, she does have a mask, but she's not going to remain anonymous. Are you joking me?

• 41:49Kate Lister?

  No. No, that's very spicy, isn't it?

• 41:53Speaker 02

  Yeah. And so she is actually a maid of honor to Princess Augusta, who is the Princess of Wales. And Augusta is at the masquerade and sees Chudley and is like, um, I don't think so. Here's a shawl. And Elizabeth is like, no, thank you.

• 42:10Kate Lister?

  Go girl. Wow. That's impressive, isn't it?

• 42:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 42:13Kate Lister?

  There are places where scandal happens then. It's not a completely chaste affair.

• 42:18Speaker 02

  Yeah. I mean, to be fair, going into it, this was a huge risk for Chudley because

• 42:23Kate Lister?

  That it fricking was.

• 42:24Speaker 02

  Yeah. Right. She could absolutely lose her status as maid of honor. She could lose her status in society. Ostracized, right? Like because this hype around the masquerade has been building of you could be destroyed or not. Thankfully for her, she meets the king, George the second, who's a bit of a luch.

• 42:44Kate Lister?

  Yeah.

• 42:44Speaker 02

  And of course, he's totally besotted.

• 42:47Kate Lister?

  Of course.

• 42:48Speaker 02

  He's like, hey, girl, unofficial mistress. I love you.

• 42:52Kate Lister?

  So that's, that's her setup then. She's absolutely fine. See, there's a lesson there, isn't there? Go to posh parties with your tits out and you might bag a king.

• 43:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 43:00Kate Lister?

  Could happen. Could happen. So as a final question then, where did they go? Like, I know you can attend masquerade balls now, but they are kind of like novelties and recreations. Did they have a period where they just fell out of fashion and why was that?

• 43:14Speaker 02

  Yes. So in the 1790s, the masquerades start, as I alluded to this earlier, they started to lose their shine. There's more that's happening in the world of bishops aren't shouting anymore.

• 43:29Kate Lister?

  I think they're not. Oh.

• 43:30Speaker 02

  They're more in the first half of the century. Um, and the second half of the century, because leisure is becoming more commercialized and there's a million more things that you can do. Masquerades have to sort of fight to keep up.

• 43:43Kate Lister?

  Right.

• 43:44Speaker 02

  And

• 43:44Kate Lister?

  They're becoming a bit old fashioned.

• 43:46Speaker 02

  They are. So now they're at Ranula Gardens, which is over Chelsea, like right on the Thames. And there are still some that are at the King's Theatre. There are still some that are happening. Other places, the elite are taking them into their own homes. So like Bridgerton in a townhouse. The elite are bringing them into townhouses and country houses, but the ticket price is dropping. And they're becoming sort of the middling, upper middling form of entertainment. And they're being associated with royal celebrations. So like Queen Charlotte's birthday or a peace treaty or whatever. And because they're becoming more and more itemized, like you can buy a dinner ticket. You can buy a private dinner box ticket to have your dinner by yourselves. You can buy your costume at the door. You don't have to prepare before you go.

• 44:31Speaker 02

  You can buy your ticket in cash instead of having to be on a subscription list. So all these things are changing the nature of the masquerade into more of a very public option. And then that's happening at the same time as other popular forms of entertainment coming up. And we see that then the elite start picking up on just fancy dress. So now you don't, now you don't need a mask. Now you just need a costume and you don't even have to act it out. You just have to look nice.

• 45:01Kate Lister?

  And so as a final, final question then, which, which masked ball would you want to have gone to? In all the research that you've done, would you have wanted to go and see Kitty? Would you have wanted to go to one of these early Frenchy ones? The one where Elizabeth has got her wraps out? Which one would you have wanted to go to?

• 45:18Speaker 02

  This is so hard. It's such a hard question.

• 45:22Speaker 02

  Because it's not like you've seen one, you've seen them all because they're all different and they all have such fun characters who are all real, which is mind blowing. I think so Kitty actually hosts a giant birthday extravaganza at Powderham Castle in Devon.

• 45:39Speaker 02

  And just because I love Kitty and I loved working on his story and sort of like not recovering, recovering his narrative a bit, I think that's one that I would really like to go see because it would have been not just a masquerade, but his masquerade and how he used that for self-expression as much as for family expression. So sort of that taught and he's so ostentatious and over the top that it would have just been.

• 46:06Kate Lister?

  You just want to meet him.

• 46:07Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 46:08Kate Lister?

  Be at one of his parties. Yeah, I'd agree with that. Meg, you have been wonderful to talk to. Thank you so much. And if people want to know more about you and your work, where can they find you?

• 46:18Speaker 02

  On Instagram, I am at FancyHistorian. All the regular ways you spell those words.

• 46:26Kate Lister?

  Good handle.

• 46:27Speaker 02

  And there is a personal website, but that's also, I think, linked on my Instagram.

• 46:32Kate Lister?

  And give us the full title of the book once more.

• 46:35Speaker 02

  The Masquerade: A History of Extravagance and Intrigue.

• 46:39Kate Lister?

  Fabulous. Thank you so much for dropping by. You've been a treat.

• 46:43Speaker 02

  Thank you so much, Kate. This was absolutely wonderful.

• 46:55Kate Lister?

  Thank you for listening and thank you so much to Meg for joining me. And if you like what you heard, don't forget to like, review and follow along, whatever it is you get your podcasts. All through May, we're going to be finding out how people have been cancelled throughout history, so don't miss it. And if you'd like us to explore a subject or if you just wanted to say hello, then you can email us at [email protected]. This podcast was edited by Tim Arstil and produced by Sophie G. The senior producer was Freddie Chick. Join me again, Betwixt Sheets, The History of Sex Scandal in Society, a podcast by History Hit. This podcast contains music from Epidemic Sound.