Encore: Eat Smart: Quality Foods to Improve Sleep and Reduce Stress

Food is more than just fuel – every bite we take has a profound impact on our biology. In this episode, I explain the principles of the Pegan diet, emphasizing the importance of quality, nutrient-dense foods. Joining me are some incredible guests: Dr. Cindy Geyer, a renowned expert in functional medicine, and Dr. Elissa Epel, a leading stress researcher. Together, we’ll explore how chronic stress and poor sleep are intricately connected to major health issues like obesity, diabetes, and neurodegenerative diseases. Learn how specific dietary choices can serve as powerful medicine, improving your overall health and longevity. Plus, explore actionable tips and expert insights on integrating these health-boosting foods into your daily routine. View Show Notes From This Episode Get Free Weekly Health Tips from Dr. Hyman Sign Up for Dr. Hyman’s Weekly Longevity Journal Full-length episodes of these interviews can be found here: How to Follow the Pegan Diet What Is Driving Your Poor Sleep and How Can You Fix It? How To Reduce The Harmful Effects of Chronic Stress This episode is brought to you by Seed, ButcherBox, Vivobarefoot. Seed is offering my community 25% off to try DS-01® for themselves. Visit seed.com/hyman and use code 25HYMAN for 25% off your first month of Seed's DS-01® Daily Synbiotic. ButcherBox is giving new members two pounds of ground beef for FREE in every box. Visit ButcherBox.com/Farmacy and use code FARMACY. If you're not barefoot, go Vivobarefoot. Head to vivobarefoot.com/drhyman to get 20% off today!

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Dr. Mark Hyman?

  Hey everyone, it's Dr. Mark Hyman. Thank you so much for being a loyal listener to The Doctor's Pharmacy. For the holidays, I've decided to give my team a little break to rest up and prepare for more content and the new year ahead. So The Doctor's Pharmacy will be replaying some older episodes for the next two weeks. But don't worry, we'll be back with more content and brand new episodes starting Tuesday, December 31st. So for now, here are some of my favorite past episodes of The Doctor's Pharmacy and see you next year.

• 0:30Dr. Mark Hyman?

  Coming up on this episode, food is information, that it's medicine, that it's instructions, it's code that programs your biology with every bite. So you must understand that you're interacting with things, not just from an energy perspective, not just fuel to run your body, but instructions that code for every single function of what's going on.

• 0:50Dr. Mark Hyman?

  Now, before we jump into today's episode, I'd like to note that while I wish I could help everyone by my personal practice, there's simply not enough time for me to do this at scale. And that's why I've been busy building several passion projects to help you better understand, well, you. If you're looking for data about your biology, check out Function Health for real-time lab insights. And if you're in need of deepening your knowledge around your health journey, well, check out my membership community, Dr. Hyman Plus. And if you're looking for curated trusted supplements and health products for your health journey, visit my website, DrHyman.com for my website store and a summary of my favorite and thoroughly tested products.

• 1:31Dr. Mark Hyman?

  Are you ready to prioritize wellness? Maybe you want to make more informed choices on the latest health trends, or simply understand the science. I'm Dr. Mark Hyman. I'm a wellness expert, and I want to welcome you to my podcast, Health Hacks. In every episode, I'll provide guidance on how to live a longer, healthier life, helping you wade through all the health ads and the soundbites to bring you the science-backed facts, along with practical tools and insights to make informed decisions. Health Hacks is available in audio and video, so you can tune in wherever and however you enjoy your podcasts. Join me every Tuesday for a new episode. Just search for Health Hacks, where my goal is to empower you to live well.

• 2:13Dr. Mark Hyman?

  Hi, I'm Dr. Mark Hyman, a practicing physician and proponent of systems medicine, a framework to help you understand the why or the root cause of your symptoms. Welcome to The Doctor's Pharmacy. Every week, I bring on interesting guests to discuss the latest topics in the field of functional medicine and do a deep dive on how these topics pertain to your health. In today's episode, I have some interesting discussions with other experts in the field. So let's just trump right in. The Pegan diet is basically the approach that I've created, and it's really a flexible, inclusive framework. It's built on a few key principles, and these are central principles, no matter what nutritional philosophy you ascribe to, I think they're universal. First is focus on quality. The quality of the ingredients, the quality of the nutrients, the quality of the food you're eating matters so much.

• 2:56Dr. Mark Hyman?

  So, you know, is a sun-ripened tomato off your vine at the end of August in an organic little garden you have in the backyard, better quality than a industrially-produced tomato that's designed to fit in a box and not squish and last for months on this shelf and tastes like cardboard, the same? No. Focus on quality, whether it's real food or whatever you're eating. Try to get the highest quality, most nutrient-dense food you can. And obviously, that means no ultra-processed food. Understand that food is information, that it's medicine, that it's instructions, it's code that programs your biology with every bite. So you must understand that you're interacting with things, not just from an energy perspective,

• 3:41Dr. Mark Hyman?

  not just fuel to run your body, but instructions that code for every single function of what's going on, your microbiome, your metabolism, your brain chemistry, your immune system, everything, and I could go on, the list goes on, is regulated by what you eat in real time. And the last principle after quality and food is medicine and information is personalization. Not everybody needs the same diet. Some people do better on low carbs, some people do better on low fat, and some will do better on paleo, some will do better as vegan. So we have to see what works for you, and we have to be smart about it. But you want to make sure you eat a diet that is very much focused on these principles. And it's also follows a few other things. One, it should be low in starch and sugar, low glycemic. Super, super important.

• 4:26Dr. Mark Hyman?

  I can't stress that enough. I've said it forever, but it's really important because that's drives so much of the age-related diseases. Two, it should be full of good fats, avocados, olive oil, nuts and seeds. If you're tolerant of saturated fats and you don't eat them with carbs and sugar, you can have coconut butter, coconut oil, and even grass-fed butter or ghee. And make sure you eat foods that are full of phytochemicals, lots of colorful plant foods with anti-inflammatory, detoxifying, hormone-balancing, energy-busting, gut-healing compounds. And that's a nutrient-dense diet that's full of longevity-rich, I mean longevity-producing

• 5:05Dr. Mark Hyman?

  phytochemicals, polyphenols, which are plant chemicals, antioxidants, microbiome, healing fiber, probiotics, prebiotics, postbiotics, all of it. And this is designed to basically regenerate human health and planetary health, which is something you can't separate. So our health is intimately tied to the planet's health. Our own health is tied to the soil health, the nutrients of soil, or how we get our nutrients. So it really is a beautiful ecosystem that we learned mostly how to destroy. But today I'm going to talk to you about how would you follow the vegan diet? What does it look like? First of all, it's a plant-rich diet, not a plant-based diet. And that's an important distinction. Plant-based implies vegan.

• 5:48Dr. Mark Hyman?

  Plant-rich means your diet's mostly plants. And that should be three-quarters of your plate covered with colorful veggies. Lots of colors, weird things, mostly non-starchy veggies. I do eat a purple sweet potato, or sweet potatoes, fine. Winter squashes are fine, especially if you're not insulin-resistant or diabetic. Try to choose organic or regenerative when possible. Use the Dirty Dozen Guide and the Clean 15 Guide from the Environmental Working Group. That's ewg.org. Download those guides and you'll learn all about which are the foods you want to stay away from that are the worst contaminated. For example, don't ever eat strawberries unless they're organic, or nectarines, for example, whereas you can eat avocado or banana if it's not organic. Also, load up on the good fats. What should you be eating?

• 6:33Dr. Mark Hyman?

  Well, nuts and seeds. Try to eat fats in their whole food forms, seeds and nuts, avocados, pasteurized eggs, fatty fish, like mackerel, sardines, herring, anchovies.

• 6:44Dr. Mark Hyman?

  Some wild salmon that's small. Olive oil also is a very minimally processed oil. Try to stay away from the hexane extracted, deodorized solvent, you know, mixed refined oils that we eat are probably refined oils. If you're going to eat canola or soybean oil, I don't highly recommend that, but they can be part of cooking and other things if you want. And only if they're expeller pressed, only if they're organic. Mostly they're GMO, mostly they're sprayed with glyphosate. You just stay away from that. So for cooking, I use extra virgin olive oil for no heat or low heat, avocado for higher heat, avocado oil, I like that, and extra virgin coconut oil. Also, use nuts and seeds.

• 7:27Dr. Mark Hyman?

  They are tremendous. They should be every day, a couple of handfuls of nuts and seeds. Really help with weight loss, diabetes, heart disease. They're a great source of minerals, fiber, fat, protein, and lots more stuff. Almonds, walnuts, pecans, hazelnuts, macadamia nuts, pumpkin seeds, hemp seeds, chia seeds, sesame seeds are all great. I like pine nuts too. I put that on there. Also, what about meat? Should we be vegan? Should we be carnivores? Should we be paleo?

• 7:56Dr. Mark Hyman?

  You know, we do need protein and we need animal protein, especially as we get older to build muscle. If you don't have enough protein in the right forms with the right amount of leucine, which is a very important amino acid to build muscle, you will lose muscle as you get older. And if you see people who are vegan, as they're older, they tend to be more frail, more thin, less muscle mass. And muscle mass is the currency of longevity. So you want to make sure you keep, maintain, and build muscle as you get older. And so it doesn't mean you have to be eating, you know, 20 ounce steaks. It just means you need 30 grams. And that's not much. It's a palm sized piece of protein or equivalent at each meal. So make sure you're using regenerative meat if you can. I have a company called Force of Nature, which sources regenerally raised meat

• 8:40Dr. Mark Hyman?

  from around the country or even around the world. It's really good for you. It's full of phytochemicals. It's raised in humane ways, harvested in humane ways. So it's really a beautiful. Beautiful way to support a growing food system that supports regenerative agriculture. If you can, you can get grass-fed, pasture-raised, organic when possible. Also, making sure that if you are plant-based and vegan, you may need extra protein powders. And you're going to be having processed food. It's processed food, which is processed protein powders. You're going to have ones that are just more from whole ingredients, but you have to make sure they have added amino acids, particularly leucine and particularly branched-chain amino acids,

• 9:22Dr. Mark Hyman?

  because you will not be able to get enough by just having the basic plant-based protein. When you also look at fish consumption, in addition to meat, it's a great source of protein. But I would stick with the small fatty fish, sardines, herring, anchovies, mackerel, small wild salmon, high in omega-3s, low in mercury. There's a great company out there called sea topia dot fish that's sourced regeneratively, agriculture-raised fish. It's low in toxins, tastes great, low in mercury, and full of omega-3s and actually great plant-based phytochemicals that come from the feed they're eating. So, check that out if you want to learn how to lower your intake of more toxic fish. Go to Environmental Working Group. You can use the Monterey Bay Aquarium Guide

• 10:07Dr. Mark Hyman?

  or the NRDC Guide for a low mercury fish. Grains, what about grains? Well, whole grains are fine for most people. I wouldn't be eating six cups of brown rice, which is 30 grams of protein. But, you know, small amounts of half a cup to a cup can sometimes be fine. If they're whole grains, if they're more ancient grains, if they're not bred to be super starchy. So, I would encourage you to eat weird grains, like heirloom grains, Himalayan tartary buckwheat, ancient forms of wheat, if you're not gluten-sensitive, like einkorn, emmer, or farro. But don't have them ground as flours, except some of them, you know, may be okay, like Himalayan tartary buckwheat. A small amount of flour can be fine. But you want to make sure you're You're actually eating a low glycemic, protein-rich, mineral-rich form of whole grains,

• 10:52Dr. Mark Hyman?

  not the ones that have been hybridized and processed in the ways we eat them. So don't eat whole grain flour, don't eat flour products, and try to avoid gluten, especially in America, because there's many reasons. You know, most gluten in this country is grown with dwarf wheat, it's sprayed with glyphosate at the end, it's super starchy, it has way more gluten proteins that cause celiac or non-celiac gluten sensitivity. So I'd really reduce that. Sugar, obviously, you know, stay away from that stuff. I mean, a little bit's fine here and there, but as a staple, it should not be part of your diet. It's an occasional treat, it's a recreational drug. And also just remember, below your neck, your body can't tell the difference between a bowl of sugar and a bowl of cereal, or a bagel.

• 11:38Dr. Mark Hyman?

  Also, oils, eliminate most of those refined oils, all those, especially corn and grape seed and sunflower. If they're high oleic, they can be okay. If they're, you know, expeller or cold-pressed, they may be okay. But stick with the main oils that come from olive oil and avocado oil, you'll be doing fine. And dairy, what about dairy? Well, dairy, you know, typically is raised in this country with a homogenous, not homogenized, but homogenous genetic cow, which is the Holstein cow, and that's A1 casein, it's very inflammatory, they're pumped full of hormones, growth hormone, they're often milk-hol pregnant, and you get, you know, flood of hormones and inflammatory compounds and inflammatory forms of casein.

• 12:20Dr. Mark Hyman?

  And if you want to have dairy, try sheep or goat, try A2 cows, which you can get like Guernsey and Jersey cows or A2 cows. And if you have the wrong kind of dairy, it's going to drive inflammation, cancer, osteoporosis, believe it or not, yes, it's not good for your bones. That's a whole nother conversation, you can... I think read my blog called Six Reasons to Avoid Milk and where you can go on and read about David Ludwig's article on Medium, On Milk, where she reviewed all the literature recently about it and it showed that it really is not a health food. I recommend mostly avoiding it, occasional grass fed, you know, sheep or goat cheese or yogurt or milk can be fine. Ghee is fine because it doesn't have the milk solids in it. So grass fed ghee is also fine.

• 13:04Dr. Mark Hyman?

  So that's basically it. Eat real food. Personalize your approach. Think of food as medicine, focus on quality. You can be super flexible and all that and hopefully you can follow these principles and activate your body's own healing response, improve your health and use it like I have in my practice to use food as medicine and live a longer, healthier life.

• 13:30Speaker 01

  So sleep is when we're repairing the powers of both the mind and the body. Sleep is when we reduce inflammation, repair tissues.

• 13:41Speaker 01

  The discovery of the glymphatic system in 2012, 2013 is this passive channel that runs alongside our arteries and veins in the brain that fills with fluid when we're in deep sleep and allows a washing out of debris we may have accumulated during the day.

• 13:57Dr. Mark Hyman?

  So all those bad thoughts get washed out?

• 13:59Speaker 01

  Well, not the bad, well, the bad thoughts, no, but the, but the amyloid plaque, that sticky plaque that we secrete in response to inflammation or, or injury. If it accumulates, of course, it can damage surrounding neurons and is associated with neurodegenerative disease and Alzheimer's disease.

• 14:14Dr. Mark Hyman?

  So in English, that means if you don't sleep, you're likely to get demented.

• 14:17Speaker 01

  It's definitely playing a role. And, and this concept of bidirectionality, we know that sleep disruption, circadian rhythm disruption, sleep apnea is present in two thirds of people with insulin resistance, pre-diabetes, diabetes. And it is a chicken and the egg thing is driving the bus. You know, we used to think, well, you get the sleep apnea because you have insulin resistance and gain weight. But if you have disrupted sleep, your insulins are higher, your cortisols are higher, your glucose is higher, you're looking for highly processed. Quick, energy dense foods and less able to resist them.

• 14:50Dr. Mark Hyman?

  Wow. So not sleeping is a risk factor for obesity.

• 14:53Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 14:54Dr. Mark Hyman?

  And heart disease.

• 14:55Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 14:55Dr. Mark Hyman?

  And cancer.

• 14:56Speaker 01

  And cancer.

• 14:57Dr. Mark Hyman?

  And dementia.

• 14:57Speaker 01

  And flares of autoimmune conditions.

• 15:00Dr. Mark Hyman?

  Yeah.

• 15:00Speaker 01

  And chronic pain and fibromyalgia. So and anxiety and depression. I mean, it really affects.

• 15:06Dr. Mark Hyman?

  Oh, my God. If I don't sleep, I'm depressed and anxious.

• 15:09Speaker 01

  But the more you worry about it, the harder it gets to sleep.

• 15:11Dr. Mark Hyman?

  Yeah, it's true. So, okay, so we have that chronic stress. What else is, what else is driving this insomnia pandemic? Which is huge, right? How many 70, 90 million people are struggling with insomnia?

• 15:21Speaker 01

  Right. So I do think that there's a need to address underlying contributors to anxiety and depression, independent of their impact on sleep. So talking about what's going on, bringing in some kind of breath based practice, whether that's yoga or Tai Chi or meditation, just to ratchet everything down. That's another important component of it.

• 15:41Dr. Mark Hyman?

  Yeah.

• 15:41Speaker 01

  And thirdly, you've already touched on a little bit about the dopamine with the phone, but it's also the dysregulation in our circadian rhythms. You know, we think about how I, there's been a lot of research about how important it is to avoid light exposure at night, for example. But everything we do during the day and when we do it is ultimately going to influence our ability to go to sleep when we want to and get the rest that we want to. So in other words, when we're eating all day long and snacking late at night and watching TV at night, that's signaling our, yes, and on our computers, that's telling our bodies and brain that it's day, it's day, it's day. So we want to actually reestablish a consistent circadian rhythm.

• 16:24Speaker 01

  Meal timing. So we're having eating earlier in the day and then building in a fasting interval before we go to bed.

• 16:30Dr. Mark Hyman?

  So don't eat three hours before bed?

• 16:31Speaker 01

  No. Interestingly enough, there's, as you know, there's a connection as well with digestive function that eating late at night not only disrupts your sleep, but it's contributing to higher reflux, which then also interrupts sleep. So everything's interconnected.

• 16:46Dr. Mark Hyman?

  I had a meeting last night, actually, because I went hiking and it's summer and it's so beautiful. And I say it's late light. So we were like, didn't get down from the mountain until eight o'clock at night. And I'm like, oh, let's go eat. I'm hungry. But then by the time we ate, it was like nine o'clock. And I, like last night, I toss and turn for a couple hours before I went to bed, which I usually don't do.

• 17:05Speaker 01

  It's not interesting.

• 17:06Dr. Mark Hyman?

  It was the, you know.

• 17:10Dr. Mark Hyman?

  So there's eating late night, there's, there's circadian rhythm disruption. And this morning I went out and sat on my deck and the sunshine was out. So getting light in the morning is so important.

• 17:18Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 17:18Dr. Mark Hyman?

  So we don't do that. We're all like on our phones or computers right away. We need the natural light to reset our brain.

• 17:23Speaker 01

  Makes a big difference.

• 17:24Dr. Mark Hyman?

  Light, light is medicine.

• 17:25Speaker 01

  It is.

• 17:25Dr. Mark Hyman?

  Light is medicine.

• 17:26Speaker 01

  It is.

• 17:27Dr. Mark Hyman?

  And, and also it could be bad medicine if it's the wrong light at the wrong time, right?

• 17:30Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 17:31Dr. Mark Hyman?

  So we have all this like, what, like, there's this great book called Lights Out that I read years ago, Cindy, that was really talking about the advent of the light bulb driving chronic disease. Because of the disruption in our rhythms and so on.

• 17:43Speaker 01

  It's interesting. They even looked at LED streetlights disrupting the circadian rhythm of animals and insects too. So it's not just humans that are being impacted by this.

• 17:51Dr. Mark Hyman?

  And there's some other weird stuff that affects sleep that we don't think about. Like, what else?

• 17:56Speaker 01

  Well, one of the conditions is restless leg syndrome. And that's, it's hard to diagnose. It's more of what we call a clinical diagnosis. People describe this creepy crawly sensation in their legs or this irresistible urge to rub their feet together. And typically it's treated with dopamine medications. It's connected to relatively low dopamine levels in the brain. You know, dopamine, yes, revs you up, but dopamine also seems to play a role with movement. So it's treated with some of the same medications they use to treat Parkinson's disease. But it turns out that that can be more prevalent in people who have autoimmune conditions, in which case we want to address the underlying autoimmune conditions.

• 18:37Speaker 01

  There are some nutrient deficiencies that are going to make rest, the symptom of restless legs more significant. Low iron, low vitamin D, low folic acid, low magnesium. So we really want to look at somebody's nutritional status.

• 18:50Dr. Mark Hyman?

  Yeah. And by the way, 80% of the population is deficient in vitamin D, 50% in magnesium, you know, like.

• 18:56Speaker 01

  Right.

• 18:57Dr. Mark Hyman?

  20% in iron. I mean, it's like, a lot of people are deficient in the B vitamins and they don't even know it.

• 19:03Speaker 01

  Right.

• 19:04Dr. Mark Hyman?

  You know, and you go to your doctor and you have insomnia, they're not checking those things.

• 19:07Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 19:08Dr. Mark Hyman?

  And there's even weirder things in nutritional stuff, right?

• 19:11Speaker 01

  So if we identify a nutrient deficiency, for example, the next step is why? What's the why that somebody's nutrients might be low? And there we come back, like so many other things, to the function of the gut. And interestingly enough, there is a higher correlation in people who have small intestinal bacterial overgrowth, also having restless leg syndrome. Maybe because it's contributing to ongoing inflammation, maybe because it's also contributing to difficulty absorbing those nutrients from your food. So we're even going to go a step further and say, is there an underlying issue with digestive function absorption and assimilation of nutrients?

• 19:47Dr. Mark Hyman?

  So if your gut's a mess, it can also cause insomnia.

• 19:50Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 19:51Dr. Mark Hyman?

  And then heavy metals are another big one that we don't really hear about.

• 19:54Speaker 01

  Right. Lead, mercury, things that that are under the radar for many, many people and unfortunately can be a problem.

• 20:02Dr. Mark Hyman?

  Yeah, no, I, I, um, I had that. We talked about on the show, but I've had mercury poisoning, um, 30 years ago almost. And it really totally screwed up my sleep.

• 20:13Speaker 01

  What happened with your sleep?

• 20:14Dr. Mark Hyman?

  I just couldn't sleep. Like I just, I was just really couldn't fall asleep, couldn't stay asleep, never felt rested, had chronic fatigue syndrome. Until I got the mercury out, got my fillings out, chelation, everything, I couldn't sleep. Uh, and it really took a long time to reset that. Okay, so we've got all these different things that traditional medicine ignoring, the hormonal fluctuations, the, the gut issues, heavy metals, nutrient deficiencies. I mean, doctors know about sleep apnea, but they often miss it in thin women because that's not the archetype of someone who actually like the Pickwickian figure with, you know, huge belly and a thick throat and size 17 neck. I mean, you know, uh, so there's all these issues and, and yet, um, you know, this continues

• 20:59Dr. Mark Hyman?

  to be such a struggle for so many people.

• 21:03Dr. Mark Hyman?

  And the traditional treatments really are just stopgap. They don't really address the cause. So in functional medicine, the way we think about things is to look at some of these other factors. So in your practice, how do you start to dig down? What are the kinds of diagnostic things you look at differently? We talked about all these different factors, but how do you identify what's the problem in this or that particular person?

• 21:24Speaker 01

  Well, I think it's the time to take a history and really understand all of the other interconnectedness that could be going on. For example, somebody with sleep concerns might also have digestive concerns, and then we might be thinking about assessing their digestive function, looking at a nutritional assessment. But I think there's a time and a place, and there's tremendous value in screening somebody with a portable sleep study, because that gives you a tremendous amount of information. And we're using it, yes, to diagnose sleep apnea, but also to say, how often do you wake up during the night? How much percentage of time are you spending in REM sleep and deep sleep? Are you tossing and turning all night long? So it can give us a tremendous overview in terms

• 22:06Speaker 01

  of somebody's sleep throughout the night. And from that, we can also decide, okay, what else do we need to explore?

• 22:15Dr. Mark Hyman?

  And then we do some testing, right? You can look at nutritional levels. You can look at these vitamin D and magnesium and folate and iron studies. You can look at, obviously, the sleep apnea test. And there's home tests now you can do really great. We look at heavy metals, right? And the hormones, you can really get a sense of what's going on with hormones. If your people, if their estrogen and progesterone's all out of balance and just happens in menopause, you see a lot of sleep issues. Heavy metals, like I said, we can test. So there's a lot of ways we can diagnose using functional medicine testing that you don't really get with traditional doctors that can help get underneath things. So tell me about this patient you had, because it sort of speaks to a lot of the issues

• 22:57Dr. Mark Hyman?

  that we're talking about. And it gives you a little unusual approach to insomnia, something you wouldn't really get from a traditional doctor.

• 23:03Speaker 01

  Right. So this is somebody that, and one of the things I want to plant the seed for is sometimes we start with what we think is the most likely issue, and we gradually uncover more potential contributing issues and peel the layers of the onion. And this was a woman that I had known for years. She was pretty healthy in terms of her lifestyle. She exercised. She wasn't overweight. She ate a healthy diet. She didn't drink any alcohol. She was treated with antidepressants. She was on a serotonin reuptake inhibitor and Wellbutrin for her depression. And she started, she was also on hormone replacement therapy. She was post-menopausal in her 60s. And she started complaining of fatigue and difficulty concentrating and just felt scattered. And by Sundays, she would have the need to take a three hour nap.

• 23:48Speaker 01

  So, well, that's unusual. So, we did some of the usual testing for causes of fatigue. We tested her thyroid. It was okay. We looked at her iron levels or sugar levels. They were okay. So, I decided to do, screen her with a sleep study. And it turned out, you would not have looked at her and said, oh, yes, she is the poster child for sleep apnea. She turned out to have one of the most striking positional components to sleep apnea I've ever seen. When she was on her side, her sleep was normal. But when she was on her back, she had respiratory events that count as either a slowing of airflow or a stopping of airflow more than 60 times an hour.

• 24:26Dr. Mark Hyman?

  Wow. She stopped breathing 60 times an hour?

• 24:28Speaker 01

  Yes, yes.

• 24:29Dr. Mark Hyman?

  Like, once a minute?

• 24:30Speaker 01

  That's a lot. No wonder she was exhausted, right? So, in, when you see a positional component like that, you know, I have people who don't want to do a sleep study because they don't want to, I don't, I'm dead, I'd never wear that stupid mask. But for her, we said, okay, well, let's start with retraining you to learn to sleep on your side. And she tried that. There's some commercially available positional devices. There are all kinds of strategies you can do.

• 24:55Dr. Mark Hyman?

  There's a very, very sophisticated technology. It's called the tennis ball.

• 24:58Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 24:59Dr. Mark Hyman?

  Strategy, where you sew a tennis ball into a t-shirt on the back. So, if you roll over on your back, it makes you flip over to your side.

• 25:06Speaker 01

  Or the fanny pack with the pillow stuffed in it. Yes. There's all kinds of strategies you could do. And of course, it's, it's big business, right? You can buy a slumber bump or a bumper belt.

• 25:14Dr. Mark Hyman?

  Oh, I didn't know they had that. That's, I was on the tennis ball track.

• 25:18Speaker 01

  Even more sophisticated, there's now a biofeedback device that's a strap around that vibrates when you roll on your back. So, it's sort of autogenic. Nighttime training to get you. So that's what she used, interestingly enough. And it helped a little, but she was still tired. So as we're peeling the layers of the onion, she had some digestive symptoms. Lot of bloating, a lot of discomfort. And she had, we had done a full sleep study. She had restless legs and periodic limb movements. She turned out to have a very abnormal breath test for small intestinal bacterial overgrowth.

• 25:51Dr. Mark Hyman?

  That means bugs growing in your small intestine where they usually shouldn't grow.

• 25:53Speaker 01

  Where they don't belong. Right. Right.

• 25:55Dr. Mark Hyman?

  Which can cause inflammation.

• 25:57Speaker 01

  Absolutely. And low iron. Her iron wasn't terribly low, but one of the sidebars here, I think the other thing we do in functional and integrative medicine is understand the difference between a normal blood test, I should put quote, "normal" blood test and an optimal blood test.

• 26:12Dr. Mark Hyman?

  Yeah.

• 26:13Speaker 01

  Ferritin is a classic example of that. Ferritin looks at your total tissue iron.

• 26:18Dr. Mark Hyman?

  How much iron is in your iron bank in your body?

• 26:21Speaker 01

  In your iron bank, your iron stores. Right. And normal can be anywhere from 15 to 250.

• 26:27Dr. Mark Hyman?

  Yeah.

• 26:29Speaker 01

  So.

• 26:29Dr. Mark Hyman?

  It's a big range.

• 26:30Speaker 01

  It's a big range. And what we know the threshold is for somebody who's got restless leg symptoms is you actually don't want to be normal. You want to be over 100 because there's some evidence, even comparing it head to head with those dopamine drugs we mentioned earlier. Getting somebody's ferritin over 100 was as effective as the dopamine medications.

• 26:50Dr. Mark Hyman?

  That's amazing.

• 26:50Speaker 01

  That's amazing. Right? As simple as correcting a nutrient deficiency, not to the normal range, but the optimal range for that condition.

• 26:57Dr. Mark Hyman?

  Yeah. What's interesting is, you know, if, you know, heme iron is the best absorbed kind of iron, but that usually comes from meat.

• 27:03Speaker 01

  Right.

• 27:03Dr. Mark Hyman?

  And if people are vegan, then the plant forms of iron aren't as well absorbed.

• 27:06Speaker 01

  Right.

• 27:07Dr. Mark Hyman?

  And you often see very significant iron deficiency in these patients, especially women who are menstruating. And I think that, you know, I learned actually in traditional medicine that ferritin was connected to sleep, actually.

• 27:19Speaker 01

  Interesting.

• 27:19Dr. Mark Hyman?

  I learned that at a lecture on insomnia that I went to by some drug company.

• 27:24Speaker 01

  That's great.

• 27:25Dr. Mark Hyman?

  I was like, wow, that's interesting. But, but yeah, I think it's, it's something that's often overlooked and it's an easy blood test to check your ferritin, which, which most doctors won't look at.

• 27:33Speaker 01

  And Mark, I think from the internal medicine. Standpoint too, it's equally important to say, don't just correct the iron, figure out the why.

• 27:41Dr. Mark Hyman?

  Right.

• 27:41Speaker 01

  You don't want to miss.

• 27:42Dr. Mark Hyman?

  Yeah, she got colon cancer.

• 27:43Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 27:44Dr. Mark Hyman?

  A stomach ulcer, she just menstruating heavily, that she have a bladder cancer or just like something, right?

• 27:49Speaker 01

  Right.

• 27:49Dr. Mark Hyman?

  So I think that's really important. You're right. Just don't look at the symptom, look at the cause.

• 27:53Speaker 01

  Right.

• 27:53Dr. Mark Hyman?

  Cause low iron is a symptom.

• 27:55Speaker 01

  Right.

• 27:55Dr. Mark Hyman?

  It's not a cause, right? A low iron may cause insomnia, but what causes low iron? So that's what functional medicine does, keeps going upstream. And you, you said something a couple of times that I just want to come back to, which is peeling the onion. So one of the principles of functional medicine from our mentor Sid Baker, who is this cool old guy, Yale professor, erudite, super smart, one of the most thoughtful men in medicine, people in medicine, period. And he said, you know, we, we have the TAC rules that help us to determine how to figure things out. One is if you're standing on a TAC, it takes a lot of aspirin to make you feel better, right? Take out the TAC. So if, you know, the bacterial overgrowth is causing the restless leg syndrome,

• 28:38Dr. Mark Hyman?

  you can take a lot of these traditional medications, but it can take a lot of medication to make it go away. Or if you fix the bacterial overgrowth and the, you know, that'll help. But then also if you're standing on two TACs, taking one of them out doesn't make you 50% better. So she had bacterial overgrowth and she had iron and she had the positional thing. So it's like usually three or four or five things. And the problem with medicine is we are so focused on the one thing, you know?

• 29:06Speaker 01

  You know, there was one other piece related to her story that I think is also important to call out. Addressing all of those things, her sleep quality was still not what she wanted to be. So we had a conversation and she relayed the fact that when she was growing up, things were pretty unsettled in her home of origin. There were a lot of late night parties, a lot of noise and bedtime became a time where she didn't really feel safe and quiet and comfortable. So we also talked about referring her to a life management behavioral therapist to really talk about what it meant to be safe and regaining that sense of being okay being in bed. And I think that's, that goes hidden as well, that a previous history of trauma or not feeling safe

• 29:49Speaker 01

  can also show up with insomnia and difficulty sleeping.

• 29:53Dr. Mark Hyman?

  Yeah, and I think that's a big thing for a lot of people. You know, there's a questionnaire you can do online called the ACE questionnaire. It's adverse childhood events and you get a score. And if you have a high score, it means you've had a crappy childhood and you probably have some level of trauma. And different people respond differently to the trauma. Of course. But you know, PTSD is so prevalent and and our nervous systems are so jacked up in general. So it's sort of like acute on chronic. Absolutely. We've got like our acute stresses on this chronic level of PTSD. And it leads to so many physical, psychological, emotional stresses for people that. And and there's a lot of ways to sort of access that, you know, I mean, there's you you you shared about how you use cognitive behavioral therapy

• 30:36Dr. Mark Hyman?

  or yoga or meditation or breathwork or, um, you know, emotional freedom techniques. There's all kinds of techniques out there, but now people are exploring, you know, psychedelic assisted therapy, MDMA, psilocybin therapy. It's legal in Oregon now and there, you know, there's some interesting research going on. Johns Hopkins and your NYU and others are really looking at how do we help people with these chronic, long term traumatic events and experiences. Uh, and and I think, you know, sort of listening to you, it's just interesting to hear that you're dealing with, you know, something as simple as insomnia can be quite complicated. You have to look at inflammation in the body. It's like, where's it coming from? Is it the gut? Is it heavy metals? Is it hormonal changes? Is it nutrient deficiencies? Is it maybe it's food sensitivities or allergies? Maybe it's low thyroid.

• 31:22Dr. Mark Hyman?

  There's things that we, you know, we just don't often think about. And so what's so satisfying with functional medicine is we're able to actually dig into these things and look and see the why. You know, we say functional medicine is the medicine of why, not what, not what disease you have, which is helpful, but it's not the end of the story. We go, well, why do you have that disease? Like, you know, and and that's the challenge of traditional medicine. It's like you make the diagnosis and you stop thinking. Okay, you've got depression. Here's antidepressant. You've got insomnia, take the sleep pill. Oh, you've got rheumatoid arthritis, take the rheumatoid arthritis pill. Like not why do you have insomnia or depression or rheumatoid arthritis or migraines, but like why? And and that's what's so powerful. So and then you sort of, there's some basic sleep practices that are really good. We've we've covered some of this, but I think it'd be good to go over it.

• 32:07Dr. Mark Hyman?

  And I think, um, you know, and I think it's it's important to emphasize that everything matters. Sleep, exercise, stress.

• 32:16Dr. Mark Hyman?

  No, you're obviously your diet plays a huge role, nutrient status. And that's what we do in functional medicine. So we dig down into it. So talk about some of the the other factors around sleep hygiene that we sort of haven't touched on in terms of diet and lifestyle and food and exercise.

• 32:34Speaker 01

  Sure. I think I think first and foremost, we have to recognize that sleep, you know, you and I trained in an era where sleep deprivation or how little sleep you could get by on was a badge of honor.

• 32:44Dr. Mark Hyman?

  Yeah.

• 32:44Speaker 01

  So we need to shift that internal dialogue that that we all have that, oh, if I'm not, if I'm sleeping, I'm wasting my time and I'm not getting my stuff done. So first, honor the importance of sleep for your overall health and well being, and even your ability to stick to your intentions around choosing healthy foods and sticking to your exercise plan. Then create a sanctuary that's really conducive for rest and relaxation. Dark, quiet, cool, ideally electronics out of the bedroom or turned off if you can. Getting rid of all of the light exposures, even your chargers, you know, that had that.

• 33:18Dr. Mark Hyman?

  Yeah, like those like lights, like those red, green lights on different devices. I'm like, that drives me crazy.

• 33:24Speaker 01

  I used to, I had a patient who told me she traveled around with black electrical tape whenever she went to a hotel and she would put it over all the little light sources in the hotel room.

• 33:32Dr. Mark Hyman?

  I travel with eye shades because you never know where you're going to be.

• 33:36Speaker 01

  So those two, quiet, calming. And I think this idea that you go, go, go, go, go, go, hop in bed and turn it off like a switch, that doesn't work either. So building in a transition to rest and relaxation. If you can do an hour, that's great. And getting off the devices, not watching TV, maybe reading a book or journaling or doing something, taking a bath, stretching in the tub. I mean, there's all kinds of wonderful ways to ease into to rest and relaxation.

• 34:03Dr. Mark Hyman?

  I like the hot Epsom salt bath and lavender drops because the lavender lowers your cortisol, the magnesium relaxes you, and the sulfur and the Epsom salt helps you detox.

• 34:12Speaker 01

  That's my favorite as well. And then you go to your cool bedroom and you do your legs up the wall yoga, restorative yoga position and bingo, you've got your transition to rest and relaxation.

• 34:22Dr. Mark Hyman?

  So powerful. And alcohol, obviously.

• 34:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's a tough one. That's a tough one. So, so the rough analogy is this, for every, it's funny, when they asked partners of people with insomnia, how many of them were suggesting that they have a drink to go to sleep? It was about a third of them. So people think alcohol is going to help you sleep, and it might make you fall asleep. But then as it clears out of your system, there's an arousal, it can exacerbate hypoglycemia, it makes you wake up, it's going to make sleep apnea worse. If you're a woman in midlife, oh, boy, it's a bladder irritant, it's a hot flash trigger. So it's really affecting sleep in a lot of ways. The rough equivalent is there's about an hour of sedation followed by an hour of arousal.

• 35:05Dr. Mark Hyman?

  Yeah.

• 35:05Speaker 01

  So if you had a glass of wine at six and you go to bed at 10, it's probably not going to impact your sleep as much as if you have two glasses at eight, or like your late dinner last night, if you had a glass or two of wine.

• 35:16Dr. Mark Hyman?

  I had a beer.

• 35:17Speaker 01

  Yeah. That has another impact on your sleep.

• 35:21Dr. Mark Hyman?

  I just noticed it. Actually, I had an aura ring for a while, and I was tracking my sleep. And I noticed whenever I drank, my sleep's pattern was so disrupted. Quality of sleep, the depth of sleep, the amount of REM sleep, deep sleep, snoring, you know, all that. It's really interesting. And then caffeine also is another big one, right?

• 35:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, absolutely. And we're all, we're all different in terms of our caffeine metabolism ability. Some people are really fast metabolers, sorry, fast metabolizers, I happen to be one of those. But if you're a slow metabolizer, half of your cup of coffee from noon could still be in your system at nine o'clock at night. And most of the time, we're not thinking back to that new cup of coffee. With food, it's really about quality, quantity, and timing of food. It's all three. Yet another area that's impacted with the health of the gut microbiome is sleep. And data is suggesting that people who eat a wide variety of colorful fruits and vegetables tend to have better sleep quality, whereas a highly processed

• 36:24Speaker 01

  standard American diet is associated with more sleep disruptions and less deep sleep. So quality matters. We already touched a little bit on the timing of eating. So eating your calories earlier in the day also helps re-regulate those circadian rhythms. So this, the Clocks in the brain and the clocks in the body that are ideally going to be working in sync with each other, they're influenced by light, by movement, and by food. So when we line all those things up during the day, it's going to help us get the rest that we need at night.

• 36:55Dr. Mark Hyman?

  So important. This is such good information.

• 36:57Speaker 02

  Stress itself is not bad for us. It can be good for us. And so just dividing things up in our mind to think about, is this an event? Is this an episode that I can recover from? Or is this a situation in my life that I'm going to live with forever and I have to get used to? So these chronic stressors like having a child with a chronic condition, having a conflictual relationship, job stress, these are the types of addiction, loved ones with addiction, health problems. I mean, years and years and years go on where we need to be coping with it in a different way because it's not about getting rid of

• 37:42Speaker 02

  the situation. The acute stressors are really pointing us to just thinking about the stress response in the moment in dealing with an episode within a day. What does that stress response look like? And as you were saying, when we think about the peak stress response and the recovery and how our body does that, it's like a phenomenally beautiful biological process that we are fully equipped with to have over and over without harm, without harm. And in fact, when we shape those stressors to our body to be short-term, brief, and

• 38:27Speaker 02

  not, you know, kind of moderate, not too extreme, they're not only not harmful, they're creating all sorts of restorative and anti-aging effects in the cell. And you write about that so well in your book. And that's just, we so easily forget, like, oh, we could use this for good. We can actually do things like HIIT, or sauna, or cold exposure, and be conditioning our nervous system, not just our cardiovascular system, but our actual emotional and physiological stress response can get conditioned. Yeah. So there's a lot of doorways in, is what you're saying. There's like a lot

• 39:02Dr. Mark Hyman?

  Doorways to kind of reset the nervous system, right? It doesn't have to just be your mind. You can use physical states actually of hot or cold or different light or all kinds of stuff.

• 39:11Speaker 02

  And why not?

• 39:13Dr. Mark Hyman?

  Yeah, why not? Right, right. You know, right now, we're in this incredibly uncertain time for many of us. Financial uncertainty, political uncertainty, the climate uncertainty. And, and I think it's a, it's kind of a stimulator of exaggerated stress. So can you talk about how we can learn how to adapt maybe to better? Or understand how to think differently about uncertainty and the whole idea of uncertainty tolerance? Cause that's a kind of a, something we really don't talk about much. But I think it's an important framework for understanding how we navigate our reality and not just get buffeted about by all the stresses that are happening all the time.

• 39:51Speaker 02

  I think it's important to start where you did, which is naming. We're in a different era. We're in a different place. We have our personal dramas. We're trying to manage the inherent stress of life and being a human in this modern world. And then on top of that, we do have this layer of more existential stressors, of global stressors, climate change, war, famine, drought. You know, the climate events that are going to be coming more and more frequent. And so how does our human mind deal with all of that at once? We're not, we're not quite well equipped, but we're not that far off from being able to kind of adopt a new mindset for this new era and strategies.

• 40:35Speaker 02

  And uncertainty tolerance is core to how we can remind ourselves to not let this primate body overreact, create accelerated aging, make our life miserable, given that we are just surrounded by uncertainty of the future, volatile uncertainty, meaning not just the inherent uncertainty that we don't know what's going to happen tomorrow, but just the dramatic shifts that we're going to see based on climate and politics and how, how we create societies as humans.

• 41:12Speaker 02

  The ability to simply be comfortable with not knowing is now a core survival skill. And we're all different. We've come with different levels of what we call tolerance or comfort with uncertainty. And those of us who are on the edge of it, the really actually being intolerant and feeling really anxious about when we can't, we don't know exactly our plans tomorrow, how things will go. That is a tremendous vulnerability factor for anxiety and depression. We've always known that. We measured that during COVID.

• 41:53Speaker 02

  We followed 500 people and the people who were most rigid about uncertainty and tensed up and couldn't feel ease and relaxation with uncertain situations, they had much more trauma from COVID, fear of COVID, climate distress.

• 42:11Dr. Mark Hyman?

  What makes someone more like uncertain than another person being able to tolerate uncertainty and other people not be able to tolerate uncertainty? Have you found that out?

• 42:21Speaker 02

  It's a really good question. It's, we all, you know, come with a different level and what creates that level? Part of it is personality and, you know, openness to new experience. Part of it is really our life experience shaping us. And so when we've had a lot of early trauma, we tend to actually have more of a threat response to things that happen and to things that haven't happened. So that vigilance about worrying about the, ruminating about the past, but also worrying about the future, feeling that more is at stake, feeling more threatened. So there are lots of ways to overcome that.

• 43:03Speaker 02

  In your diagram of stress, I love, in your new book coming out in February. I love your triangle of understanding all the influences on us and our aging biology. And you had one layer of stress that people don't usually think of, which is we're born into this world wired differently because of intergenerational trauma that's shaping our epigenetics, as well as our experience in the womb for nine months. The level of maternal stress that we've been exposed to.

• 43:31Dr. Mark Hyman?

  Yeah, it's interesting. I actually, I haven't really talked about this on the podcast or much at all. And it was sort of recently I had the chance to really dig into some, you know, deep work on myself and somatic work and other work and kind of just, I've also been reading my mother's book about her life with my father in post-war Europe. It was sort of a fictionalized account of their life. But, you know, I was sort of born into a very uncertain place. My, you know, my father didn't really want kids and and my mother had multiple abortions. There was, you know, he wasn't really around when I was born. My mother was very stressed and depressed and you know, there was this sort of state of lack of safety. And I remember that even growing up in my early childhood.

• 44:15Dr. Mark Hyman?

  Sort of the dynamics of a, you know, marriage that was falling apart and being a little kid watching all that and my mother being very sick afterwards, just not being able to eat and losing weight and being super depressed and in bed for months. And they were going to put us in foster care. So this whole drama that I, I kind of had just sort of like pushed back and realized that it definitely set me up to sort of have a more sympathetic activation in my nervous system for most of my life, even though I mentally, I think I was able to sort of manage it physiologically, it registered and I and I think that, you know, something I've really been paying attention to. And as I began to sort of shift into more parasympathetic states,

• 44:58Dr. Mark Hyman?

  which we'll get into and talk about that. You know, it, it, it allowed sort of this, this resetting of my nervous system and my biology to actually heal and then be happy and enjoy life and do the things that are really important. So these, these traumas are real. And then and they go like, they go back generations. Like I think, you know, my own, my own life. And I don't know why I'm talking about this now. It just kind of made me think about it.

• 45:21Speaker 02

  It's absolutely real. Like I just want to say, we actually, I mean, Rachel, Yehuda's work and others have actually shown our stress response system, you know, even three generations out from being

• 45:33Speaker 02

  Uh, from a Holocaust survivor as a parent, as a grandparent, we are different.

• 45:38Dr. Mark Hyman?

  Yeah, I mean, my great, my grandparents were, were deaf on my mother's side. So they had that stress and her stress of being a childhood to be the parent for them. Uh, my dad on his side, his mother was, uh, you know, one of thirteen children and accidentally pushed her sister off a swing and she died at two years old. So she was the black sheep of the family and was chronically neurotic and stressed out and anxious. I remember my grandmother. Um, you know, so all these things, you know, you don't think about, but and, and of course, many people have far worse traumas than that and you know, abuse and, and even worse, but I, I think it does register in our nervous system and unless we are conscious about how to heal that,

• 46:18Dr. Mark Hyman?

  uh, it, it kind of informs our thinking, our life, our way of looking at things and, and ultimately our illnesses, you know, I, I remember going to Herbert Benson's course like in the nineties on the mind body medicine from Harvard and and he's, you know, stress basically either is responsible for causing or exacerbating ninety-five percent of all illnesses, which is like, what? Like, and it's, it's something in medical school, we don't really learn about. How do we ma- manage it? How do we think about it? How does it work? What does it do? Right?

• 46:46Speaker 02

  And we now know the pathways and yet we still don't take it seriously. And that's why it's called the stress prescription. Because we're not going to get rid of stress, but there is a way to live with it better that is absolutely medical, medically relevant. It's a prognostic factor for getting mental and physical illnesses. And all of the data, including a recent APA survey, show we are more stressed now than in previous years and decades, but even worse, I think of our youth, like seventy percent are, you know, reporting stress that they, such extreme stress, they don't know how to manage it. It's interfering with their life. These are really serious red flags. We know what that means biologically. It's a leading indicator

• 47:30Speaker 02

  to the wear, you know, the wear and tear on our cells, on our brain, the conditions where I was trying to avoid. So it's a serious prescription that we can, we don't have to live each day with a successive level of stress and which really rules out those states that you've been cultivating, which is the restorative states. And it's a beautiful example you gave, how you are consciously changing them. Because it's not our fault, there's no judgment. We all come out with different levels. That question about why do some people expect negative things to happen, they can't stand ambiguity, that uncertainty feels intolerable, that's part of it. It's like partly from how our stress response systems are shaped from all these

• 48:13Speaker 02

  different influences before our life, including our life starting in the womb.

• 48:17Dr. Mark Hyman?

  And it can change. That's the beautiful thing. It's like we can rewire our nervous systems. And I think the difference between chronic stress and acute stress is nothing we mostly think about. But you know, one of my favorite scientists is Robert Sapolsky, who wrote a book, Why Zebras Don't Get Ulcers, which is essentially the idea that zebras are out there eating their whatever, their grass, and then the line comes and chases them. They all run like crazy, super stressed. And then line catches a zebra, and then who's eating it right next to all the other zebras. They just go back to eating their grass. And so they have like acute, acute, massive stress, and then it goes away. I want to talk about

• 48:56Dr. Mark Hyman?

  how you kind of frame stress in your book around our mind states. And then how our mind can create physiological stress, or conversely, can actually restore us to health. And you sort of mapped out these different spectrums of mind states that kind of help us think about how to understand stress, how to navigate it, how to think about discharging it. You know, when you say the stress, you know, stress reduction or stress management is not a passive process, it's an active process. And it's like you have to exercise if you want to, you know, build your muscles, you kind of have to practice various techniques in order to reset your nervous system from this chronic unremitting stress, which is

• 49:40Dr. Mark Hyman?

  so pernicious and driving so many of our diseases.

• 49:45Speaker 02

  Yes, so you want to hear about these mind states?

• 49:48Dr. Mark Hyman?

  I want to hear about this spectrum of these mind states that you talked about.

• 49:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, we've been thinking about stress from a different perspective, we and others in the field. So usually we think about how stressed does someone get in the moment? How quickly do they recover? And that's important. We want a quick peak and a quick recovery. And that's a healthy, resilient stress response. But it's not just the action during stress, during events, during tough times. The question really becomes, what are you carrying in your body and mind when nothing is happening? When you are at rest, or at least you think you are. And that's a window into the unconscious level of stress that we're carrying. So when we talk about uncertainty stress, that's where it is.

• 50:37Speaker 02

  That's because it's a bit vague and we can catch that. Mindfulness, mindful check-ins help us just in this moment, like just ask, are you tensing up? Do a check-in with your body, your hands, your face, your eyebrows. So often we are tensing up and we sometimes can identify why. And sometimes we can just remember, oh, right now, it's not only okay to relax. It's important for my body. I'm not needing to cope with something. So it's that baseline state or rest state that we're learning is really different in people and is a sign of chronic, low-grade chronic stress that we can actually get to and release through different techniques.

• 51:23Speaker 02

  So red mind is what we've been discussing about coping in the moment when you're fired up and you need the energy, you need the stress response. And we just don't want that to kind of go on and on and have sluggish recovery. But otherwise, we need that. It's beautiful. It's why we're here today. That's our survival response. Then, and of course, we're triggering it too much as a, you know, humans with the overdeveloped neocortex and the more chronic ambiguous threat we feel. So then there's yellow mind state, which is when we think we are...

• 52:02Speaker 02

  Relaxed, it's just, how are you walking around during the day? Typical day, where are you at? What's your baseline? You probably do some monitoring, you know what your autonomic nervous system is set at. And that is probably higher than we need to be at. And so that's what we think of as a, our default baseline is actually carrying around a lot of both cognitive load from our thoughts, from different information, screens, demands. So we're a bit activated. Then there's also the unconscious stress that we can become aware of and release.

• 52:43Speaker 02

  So we want to bring down that yellow mind state to a more true resting state. And that's the green mind.

• 52:52Dr. Mark Hyman?

  And how do you, how do people start to think about identifying if they're stressed? Because I think, for me, I kind of, you know, I didn't really think I was, but I, I think I sort of, I've been able to sort of map out things that, looking at my Oura ring, for example, my heart variability or what's happening. I was in Mexico City for a week and my heart variability went down. I went to the jungle in Costa Rica and it went way up, like by threefold.

• 53:18Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 53:18Dr. Mark Hyman?

  So our bodies sort of register all the inputs, even if we don't think they are.

• 53:22Speaker 02

  Yeah. I've learned a lot from monitoring and I, I think that's one way to raise awareness as well as, you know, asking ourselves to become mindful of our emotions and our bodily, where we're holding stress in the body, where we're tense. The heart, you know, heart rate tells us a lot of things. But the heart rate variability, we think is more specific to that balance between parasympathetic and sympathetic. So more related to psychological stress, not just metabolic demands. So it's, that's super interesting.

• 54:01Speaker 02

  So Costa Rica leads you to a different yellow mind, maybe green mind state, better baseline. I monitored my, with my Oura ring, I monitored my heart rate variability during a meditation retreat. And we know that when people slow their breathing, immediately they have, they can have a decrease in all the.

• 54:23Speaker 02

  The sympathetic activity markers and sometimes in heart rate variability during studies. So it's no mystery that doing these practices and doing them for longer can lead to these improvements. And that those are what we call deep rest states when we're really allowing ourselves to feel safe and to let down and let ourselves go into restorative mode. But I was surprised at how long my heart rate variability, my baseline heart rate variability took to change. So it was only two weeks later toward the end of the retreat that my sleeping heart rate variability really improved. And I think that's

• 54:59Dr. Mark Hyman?

  So two weeks of meditation, like hours and hours every day?

• 55:03Speaker 02

  Yeah. So for me, it wasn't easy to change my baseline, particularly my sleeping baseline, but it was possible. And it was, you know, I was super excited that it finally changed.

• 55:14Dr. Mark Hyman?

  Yeah, I had, I had, you know, rarely get over forty. And then I think the other night when I was in the jungle and I was in this deep sympathetic, parasympathetic state and doing a lot of sort of somatic body work. And it went to like in the nineties. And I was like, holy crap, like we don't, we don't have a sort of a framework for understanding how these things are so impactful for us. So I, you know, I realized how much I need to pay attention to the practices that I need to do to actually reset my nervous system regularly. So, so in the book, you talk a lot about some of these practices. And that's what the stress prescription is. So I love you to sort of talk about how do we sort of

• 55:56Dr. Mark Hyman?

  create a lifestyle and a way of thinking about our day and a way of thinking about the beginning and the end of our day and other types of tools or techniques or doorways other than meditation, obviously is powerful, but there's, there's more than that. I love to sort of explore that.

• 56:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 56:13Speaker 02

  We we have these red mind states that we don't want on all day. Drains our batteries, stresses our mitochondria. We have data on daily mood and mitochondria showing it is really sensitive to daily affect. This was a um a study with Martin Picard of Columbia and we were measuring the enzymatic activity. And so when we when people woke up with more positive emotion and went to bed with more positive emotion, they had higher mitochondria, which we measured kind of in the middle of the week of monitoring. And when they, you know, particularly at night. So there's this idea of how are we

• 56:55Speaker 02

  recovering from the day? Can we maintain positive affect at the end of a stressful long day? And we certainly found the chronically stressed participants, these were caregivers, had lower mitochondria overall. But this mood effect pretty much mediated that and overrode that. So that's this pointing us to hmm, we actually know how to increase positive affect in the mo-, you know, quite quickly with gratitude exercises and and other ways of thinking and being. And so how amazing to think that our mitochondrial activity might be under our control in this short term way.

• 57:32Dr. Mark Hyman?

  Wow. So one of the ways that actually you can affect your mitochondrial activity, then?

• 57:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, to get back to your question about the how do we live a day without chronic stress? So we might think of red mind as like having, you know, drinking coffee all day and just keeping us in that activated mode. And we want that stress response, but we just want to, you know, use it parsimoniously, not take it for granted. When we ignore it, it can just be on all day and rush, rush, rush. I mean, rushing and packing our day is probably the most common pernicious way that we stay in yellow and red mind.

• 58:05Dr. Mark Hyman?

  Yeah, the Okinawan's called hurry sickness.

• 58:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's good. Yeah, they don't they don't have much of that, do they?

• 58:14Speaker 02

  We must look so weird to them.

• 58:16Dr. Mark Hyman?

  Yeah, I mean, the Blue Zone is right because it, you know, they just live life. They just, it's slow and it's, it's about community and people and enjoyment and pleasure and food and hanging out. There's like, nobody's like doing startups and trying to like build a career. It's just people are just living and it's this beautiful phenomenon that we see. And I think that's a big part of the longevity in these, in these zones. Thanks for listening today. If you love this podcast, please share it with your friends and family. Leave a comment on your own best practices on how you upgrade your health and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and follow me on all social media channels at Dr. Mark Hyman and we'll see you next time on The Doctor's Pharmacy. I'm always getting questions about my favorite books, podcasts, gadgets, supplements, recipes,

• 58:58Dr. Mark Hyman?

  and lots more. And now you can have access to all of this information by signing up for my free Mark's Picks newsletter at drhyman.com/marks picks. I promise I'll only email you once a week on Fridays and I'll never share your email address or send you anything else besides my recommendations. These are the things that have helped me on my health journey and I hope they'll help you too. Again, that's drhyman.com/marks picks. Thank you again and we'll see you next time on The Doctor's Pharmacy. This podcast is separate from my clinical practice at the Ultra Wellness Center and my work at Cleveland Clinic and Function Health where I'm the Chief Medical Officer. This podcast represents my opinions and my guests' opinions and neither myself nor the podcast endorse the views or statements of my guests. This podcast is for educational

• 59:39Dr. Mark Hyman?

  purposes only. This podcast is not a substitute for professional care by a doctor or other qualified medical professional. This podcast is provided on the understanding that it does not constitute medical or other professional advice or services. If you're looking for your help in your journey, seek out a qualified medical practitioner. You can come see us at the Ultra Wellness Center in Lenox, Massachusetts. Just go to ultrawellnesscenter.com. If you're looking for a functional medicine practitioner near you, you can visit ifm.org and search Find a Practitioner database. It's important that you have someone in your corner who is trained, who's a licensed healthcare practitioner and can help you make changes, especially when it comes to your health. Keeping this podcast free is part of my mission to bring practical ways of improving health to the general public. In keeping with that theme, I'd like to express gratitude to the sponsors that made today's Podcast possible.

• 1:00:25Dr. Mark Hyman?

  When it comes to supplements, you only want the best for your body, the kind with the highest quality, cleanest and most potent ingredients you can get. That's exactly what you'll find at my supplement store, where I've hand-selected each and every product to meet the most rigorous standards for safety, purity and effectiveness. These are the only supplements I recommend to my patients, and they're also what I use myself. Whether you want to optimize longevity or reduce your disease risk, or you're looking to improve your sleep, blood sugar, metabolism, gut health, you name it, drhyman.com has the world's best selection of top-quality, premium supplements, all backed by science and expertly vetted by me, Dr. Mark Hyman. So check out drhyman.com because when it comes to your health, nothing less than the very best will do. That's drhyman.com, D R H Y M A N dot com.