Meticulous Metis, Audacious Odysseus, and the Age Old Infamy of the Orphics... A Q&A Episode

Liv is back answers listener questions about all things myth... which, right now, involves primarily questions related to the Odyssey and you know who isn't complaining? LIV! AVAILABLE NOW! The Odyssey: a Modern Retelling. https://geni.us/TheOdysseyBook Submit your question for the next Q&A via email http://mythsbaby.com/questions or a voice note https://www.speakpipe.com/LTAMB. Get ad-free episodes and so, so much more, by subscribing to the Oracle Edition at patreon.com/mythsbaby http://patreon.com/mythsbaby. Enter ourpodcast guest https://www.mythsbaby.com/contact form if you'd like to be on the show as a conversation guest! CW/TW: far too many Greek myths involve assault. I try to provide direct warnings when there is reference to anything with overtly traumatic themes but be aware that Greek mythology regularly features assault, death, and many other potentially triggering events. Attributions and licensing information for music used in the podcast can be found here:mythsbaby.com/sources-attributions http://mythsbaby.com/sources-attributions. Learn more about Liv's next group trips https://travelbugxlivalbert.my.canva.site/ to GREECE! Application deadline is November 30 (Subject to change due to demand). Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Liv Albert?

  Hey nerds, really quick note from me. I want to tell you that we now have the applications open for the next set of listener group trips. This is us going back to the original, the trips that we have held in the past that have been so much fun, so successful, and pretty affordable in terms of wandering around Greece with a bunch of nerds. So check out the details and get your applications in at mythsbaby.com/grouptrip.

• 0:43Speaker 01

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• 1:55Liv Albert?

  Hi, hello, welcome. This is Let's Talk About Myths, baby, and I am your host, Liv, here with a Q and A episode because, well, who doesn't love a good Q and A episode? I mean, frankly, you know, as you might imagine, there's some transitionary stuff going on. I'm trying to figure out what the podcast looks like without Michaela's help going forward. You know, it is unfortunate that the market has changed so much, but thankfully for me, personally, the the show now goes hand in hand with my writing, which I'm hoping can mean

• 2:39Liv Albert?

  that I can kind of transition to a cadence of show that I can actually keep up with. Back in 2020, I started releasing two episodes of this show every week. And it's funny, I want to say that it was like feasible at the beginning, but it was actually a little bit unhinged. I mean, I started doing two episodes a week because originally the pandemic hit and I, for like, literally for like, not even a month, I was home a lot more. Back then, I worked in, I managed a clothing store, shout out Below the Belt. I managed a clothing store and literally

• 3:23Liv Albert?

  within like, two or three weeks of of COVID being shut, shutting anything down, I was actually going back to work. But in those like, two weeks, I started doing two episodes a week, and I was doing these reading episodes, and I really loved them. And then, you know, that naturally transitioned into becoming these conversation episodes, which I also love. But I managed to kind of get stuck in this thing where I'm releasing two episodes of this a week. And, you know, primarily, it's a show that certainly is best when there is a heavy amount of research behind it. And I really do miss tackling the myths more as stories. Unfortunately, that's transitioned a bit, just because I've covered like, essentially,

• 4:03Liv Albert?

  all of them, in as much as these myths exist as stories to be told. Obviously, there are different ways of doing it. So I'm going to be creative and like, we're going to go back to storytelling. But this is all kind of a rambly way of me saying that there's going to be some transition. I am going to be returning in part to narrative and not getting rid of the readings or the conversations, just looking at ways that I can be in a position where I can work more on my writing and not necessarily be on the hook for two episodes a week. What that looks like, I don't totally know. But I thought for now, this Q and A episode was very well timed. I've been kind of sitting on a handful of really great questions from all of you for

• 4:48Liv Albert?

  the last couple of months. I had like, a little all caps note in my reminders that was like, do a Q and A, because there's really good stuff. I have a handful of really nice recordings from you all, and also a bunch of text questions. So we're going to dive into this now. But I would also love from you all, suggestions on like, what myths I may have already covered, but which you would like to hear of again, or what characters you might like me to do some kind of fragmentary deep dive into, you know, so often that there are these characters, we don't actually have stories necessarily, but maybe there's other things I can do. So I would love

• 5:28Liv Albert?

  to hear from you all about the stories, the characters that you really want to learn more about. As always, though, this is a great place for individual questions, too. So if you have any burning questions about characters or stories, or the transmission, or, you know, any one of the other bazillion things I have now started talking about on the podcast, like, please, always feel free. I love getting the voice ones, especially. I have a handful this time, which is really nice. But I would always love to have more. So please, if you want to, send these in or just text, whatever. I'm really just, it's really nice to hear from you all. And as you're going to see, like, it's also just really nice for me personally, to hear about

• 6:09Liv Albert?

  how the show has impacted you. Because I don't know, if if I sound like somebody who doesn't, like, absolutely crave, you know, I guess, just, what's the word I want? I mean, I, like any normal person, I love when people tell me that I'm doing a good job. And I love when people tell me that the good job that I'm doing has impacted them in some positive way. That it it fills me with the kind of joy that I think we all need right now. And hopefully, it does that, you know, in return to you all. So whatever, I don't know. I'm rambly. I'm socially anxious.

• 6:51Liv Albert?

  I considered putting this on video, and then I was like, anyway, I might start doing videos. We'll see. But in the meantime, oh, gosh, I have some lovely questions for you all. And only about half of them revolve around the Odyssey. You guys have asked me about recently, and these were all ones that were like, bigger than could fit in the reading episodes themselves. I don't know, let's get into it.

• 7:20Liv Albert?

  This first one comes from Dan, and Dan makes it really clear upfront what his intentions are, but I'm going to read it anyway. So Dan says, "I don't have a question. I just wanted to say that listening to you read The Odyssey was the first time I had read it. And as you read it, I felt your passion for the text. Sitting in the theater and watching that garbage movie, all I could think for the entire three hours was how much Liv is going to hate this. And I did not enjoy it either. I think I was your 14th subscriber on my app anyways. I've been with you since the beginning. I also love this shit." Dan, that was delightful. I actually, I mean, all of these come in through my email before I ever, you know, put them on an episode. I want

• 8:05Liv Albert?

  you to know that, like, they come straight into my inbox. And I very much remember when this one came in. And this is when I love my listeners, and I just kind of scoffed, maybe cackled a little and said, I've done my job. I've done my job. The people know, the people know.

• 8:22Liv Albert?

  And kind of before, I do plan to get into the ones that are actually questions, but a lot of these, I think, really could use being just read aloud on the show, not just internally for me. So here's a kind of similar one from Scott. And I also want to say, like, I'm not intentionally picking these. I actually just had a lot of men in my, in my, this Q and A form, in my DMs, everywhere. And in regards to the Odyssey really specifically, and I felt it, I mean, I'm, I mean, obviously, I want people of all the genders to be listening to me. And I do tend

• 9:00Liv Albert?

  to focus on the women, because I am one, and the history of the patriarchy fuels me with rage. But it does mean like, something a little bit different to me when I hear from men who have been listening to me, particularly like Dan, who had been listening to me for so long, or just men who listen to me and, you know, via their question, comment, concern, whatever,

• 9:27Liv Albert?

  via that, they show me that they're not just listening to me, they're hearing me. And that means, like, it just means something different, because, I mean,

• 9:42Liv Albert?

  Men, it's up to you to fix this patriarchal mess because you, you, and by you, I mean, the system, you know, created this world in which women's voices are less important and are less valued. And so then to have a lot of men out there seeming to suggest that it's like women's job to fix the patriarchy, the men, anything like sends me into various forms of rage. Um, and having had unfortunate conversations with actual men in my life, who in theory I consider friends, um, you know, I've gotten, I've gotten a little bit less.

• 10:23Liv Albert?

  I've developed less faith, um, in men's not just ability, but desire to actually do this. And so that's all a very long-winded way of saying like, when men listen to me and they actually hear me and the history and the reality of the patriarchal system that we live under, it means just something else. It means, I don't want to say something bigger because I'm not going to give men that credit, but like it does, it just, it stands out in this way that I think is really important, really important. And so this is also from, this is from Scott and Scott says, very similar to Dan, I love you guys for both of this, for, for just all of this. Scott says, hi Liv, I know this isn't the right use for this box and I'm sorry about that.

• 11:07Liv Albert?

  You're owning it, you guys, and I love that. I really just wanted to say thanks and I appreciate you and your show. I've just listened to your episodes on the Odyssey movie and I've been struggling with how utterly disappointed and upset I was after seeing the movie and feeling very repressed, hearing everyone praise it and frame all dislike against it as right wing hate, which I know has been awful. I couldn't believe how all the dialogue and all the meaningful time spent with female characters was completely stripped away. Anyway, I won't pile on more, but I just wanted to send a message of support. I've sincerely enjoyed your show and I listen with my kids when I can. Thank you, Scott. They listen with your kids is also extra amazing because they gotta learn sometime. They gotta, no, I, I just really, I wanted to read that because it means a lot to me.

• 11:51Liv Albert?

  Like the movie's kind of older news in my head now, which is great, but quite frankly, it's still kind of stuck with me the way a lot of men that I know and in theory, respect, have not spoken up about the treatment of women in, in the Odyssey really specifically. And these are men that have a platform and should, not, not just any randos, you know, but it's been really unfortunate to see a lot of people just be like, oh, just enjoy it. It's just a movie. It's just like, yeah, that, that's how we got here, actually. Ah, surprise, I know. Um, but pretending like that kind of thing is not harmful and it's like just a movie is something that only men can do. Um, and also just like emphasizes the privilege

• 12:34Liv Albert?

  in that because you haven't had to spend your entire lives watching your gender be oppressed in various ways, sexualized, uh, you haven't, you know, I mean, just today of all days, 26, 2026 of all years, you know, the Epstein of it all, the Trump of it all, the predators are ruling the world, the pedophiles are in charge of it all. Um, I just think that there is literally no reasonable place where we can just say like, oh, it's just a movie. It's not that deep. Like nah, go fuck yourselves. Anyway, that, uh, we are getting to questions. I do promise. I love these Q and As and I, I hope you guys don't just utterly hate them, but we've, we just, I'm really glad to have these and I want to read them aloud, not least because I also think

• 13:18Liv Albert?

  it provides incentive for you guys to share more of these notes with me, these questions, what have you, but it really does mean the fucking world to me and it reminds me why I'm doing this because it's not just like valid and important, but it's also just like fun and interesting and history is great. And the more you know about history, the more you see it repeating itself. So I think it's good for all of us. And so thank you to Scott and Dan. And now on to the people who had questions and I love it for all of them. Okay. This first real question comes from somebody who I am calling S. And I just want to say, I'm not going to read the whole question because it's quite long. We're just going to kind of bits and pieces it, but I am calling this person S.

• 14:02Liv Albert?

  I don't know why my brain wants it to be X, um, S, because they have indicated, um, that they're from Bulgaria and are queer and gender queer specifically and don't feel safe using their full name. And so obviously I'm using the letter, but also I just want to say, because there is a reference here about like even being afraid to use this Q and A. And I mean, obviously that's just kind of holding my heart in a vice grip that you even have to feel this way, but I just want you to know that you're so fucking safe in my Q and A forms. And anyone, like if you want me to, you know, not refer to you by a name or use something, just tell me, don't worry. Like, I mean, just as long as it's in there, I'm going to do what you want.

• 14:45Liv Albert?

  Like there's, there's no part of me that's out here just like throwing around names that don't want to be out there or misgendering, you know, all of these things. Like I just want you all to feel safe here. So anyway, this is from S who has some really interesting, um, sort of like thoughts, um, and just comments that I do want to talk about. So first, they said, Matus is an interesting figure to me in that she is both a concept and a goddess. My question surrounding her is a bit paradoxical because she is an oceanid, but is not connected to the sea and she is even depicted with wings. Also her connection to Mercury, the planet, Fannes, the gender fluid, fluid, fluid, fluid, fluid, fluid, fluid, fluid, fluid, fluid, fluid, fluid, fluid, fluid, fluid, fluid, fluid, fluid, fluid, fluid, fluid, fluid, fluid, is at best two myths and is narratively dead, connected to or part of

• 15:30Liv Albert?

  other concepts and gods. And why is she so larger than the narrative created by Hesiod? This question comes to, from me finally starting to read Marcel. Okay. There's this, that sounds like philosophical stuff and names I don't know. Um, so, but yes. Okay. I mean, I don't know the philosophy. I don't know. It's always given me this. I guess it's just that men have always made philosophy feel misogynistic and I recognize that it's not, but the way that men have presented it to me, it does, and anyway, all to say, I kind of avoid, um, the philosophical side. I'm, yeah, but I think this is a really interesting question and I have a number of thoughts to provide. I will somewhat disappointingly

• 16:11Liv Albert?

  point out that you have, S, you have mentioned, you've, you've dropped the names that if, if you don't know how I feel, you're about to learn, but you've dropped some, um, Orphic, uh, mythos into this and there's nothing wrong with that. It's just that Orphic is so confusing and so late that I just don't know anything about it, except for those like three episodes I did a couple of years ago and I've forgotten everything I learned because it was, it's so difficult to understand. Um, so Fannes, I know a hundred percent is Orphic and not a deity that exists in like the earlier, the, the Hesiodic kind of Greek myth, because remember

• 16:54Liv Albert?

  the Orphic tradition, this is going to be a TLDR and I might get some stuff wrong because again, I did these episodes years ago and I have forgotten everything I learned, but there are episodes that exist. But the full TLDR of the Orphic tradition is that it is attested. I believe the surviving bits and pieces that we have, for one, everything is bits and pieces. For the most part, there's like nothing of like narrative quality. There's nothing that's like an actual story really that's explicitly tied to this Orphic tradition. There are like things that come later, but they're more peripherally tied and they're not necessarily as religion based as the Orphic tradition and like earlier kind of Greek mythology was.

• 17:38Liv Albert?

  And my microphone just got messed up, so there may be something weird there, but basically my point is that the, the, you know, as much as we think of Greek mythology as like mythology, it was also obviously inextricably tied with their religious, uh, cults, their religious traditions, all of these things. And so the Orphic tradition is, to my understanding, more of a religious tradition as opposed to the kind of, uh, mythological narratives that we get from like, say, Hesiod. And what we do have from the Orphic tradition is also incredibly contradictory to some of those earlier mythic traditions like in Hesiod. Again, that doesn't make it invalid, but because it is so inherently contradictory, both in terms of just like who

• 18:22Liv Albert?

  the primordial deities are, like who's in charge, who's, you know, the child of whom, all of these things can be quite contradictory between the two traditions. And so trying to blend them kind of just adds even more confusion. And I say all of that because this Fannes connection, and I think the Mercury connection you're thinking of too are coming in late. I don't know of a connection between Hermes and Matus, uh, off the top of my head. Um, but I just want to, I more want to look at this idea of her as a goddess and a concept and the paradoxical nature of oceanids and nymphs more broadly. Obviously I was excited,

• 19:06Liv Albert?

  uh, to answer this because I've got a current obsession, uh, with nymphs. I'm calling it a bit of nymphomania, you know, but the good kind. Um, and so I really wanted to look at this because this is something that I have been absolutely fascinated by as well. And so I think what it really is, is a kind of, to, in my view, it is a bit of a, um,

• 19:35Liv Albert?

  It's a bit of a reminder about the ways that our conceptualization of nymphs, I think, is incredibly affected by later cultural traditions as opposed to the ancient ones that were contemporary. So like, Matus is an oceanid, but like, she's not. She's like, she is because the word oceanid just means like, daughter of ocean. But it doesn't, you know, it doesn't necessarily imply something more specific. Matus is of course, the goddess of, I think it's usually translated as like, good counsel, wisdom in a way, right? She

• 20:18Liv Albert?

  is the mother of Athena, via, of course, like, they, the ancient patriarchs had to find a clever way of insisting that men were equally as capable to creating life as women. And since that is biologically unsound, they invented this story where, you know, Zeus, sometimes they like to call Matus his, quote, "first wife," which is weird. They love to have, I mean, in translation, I have noticed more and more too, that translators, and I don't necessarily mean like, people now necessarily, like, I think this is more

• 20:57Liv Albert?

  of a historical translation issue. But they love to use the word wife when really what they mean is like, they had sex and had a child. But to the earlier people who were defining such things, it was absurd to suggest that they were not married. So naturally, she's a wife, despite the fact that there is literally no other narrative interaction aside from the fact that they have sex. Zeus learns that a child born of her, I think, would be like, more powerful than him, or maybe it's a son, what have you. The long story short of it is, of course, Zeus eats Matus. He consumes her, and in doing so, takes on her pregnancy with Athena, and then Athena is born from his head, which again, is their

• 21:41Liv Albert?

  way of like, saying like, "Look, a man did this!" Now, he didn't. He is incapable. And so, and I just want to be clear, like, when I'm saying this shit, it's because I'm shitting on all men. It's not because I'm trying to be gender selective. It's like, this is more, I mean, men in the wider sense of the patriarchy. But it is just, there's an anchovy, an anchovy interruption. He was just about to go climb up onto a bookshelf and start knocking everything off. But so, there, you know, there is, like, Matus ends up getting eaten, and then she's like, basically gone. And so, I'm imagining these kind of connections to Fannies and such,

• 22:25Liv Albert?

  these, these Orphic connections are this kind of later construct, because I believe Orphic was also quite concerned with more of like, these internal philosophies, right? And so, having this goddess of counsel and wisdom associated would make sense. But in terms of the mythic tradition, the sort of quote-unquote canon, which in the only way that's possible, just, you know, it's the more common mythic tradition, being the kind of Hesiodic, let's call it. The Hesiodic tradition is, you know, very early, but it's also, I think, very much about understanding a kind of religious tradition, cult tradition, that was already

• 23:06Liv Albert?

  pre-existing. And Hesiod, it's hard, because, I mean, I would love to know more of like, his motivations, right? We, you know, if he was a real person, he was meant to be this farmer in Beosha, who just, I guess, had a really poetic streak alongside his really misogynist streak. So I think that's a lot of what is kind of going on there, because in this kind of attempt to explain an existing religious tradition, what you're probably looking at is a world where the Olympian gods are the religious center of, of the kind of tradition, the culture, and then we're trying to explain how that happened,

• 23:48Liv Albert?

  right? And, and that's where we get like, the, the various stories of overthrowing fathers and kings and Zeus coming to rule and all of these things. Like, so much of that is almost like an attempt to understand what already exists, right? And so, you kind of develop this backstory about like, how we got here. And I think that Matus is a bit of just a victim of that. She is a goddess and a concept, but I, but I want to emphasize, it's really easy to think that that is unique, but I just want to really emphasize how much that when we are looking at the earliest mythic traditions, like, somebody like Hesiod,

• 24:32Liv Albert?

  these like, really archaic, I feel like I have said this because ADHD, but the Orphic tradition, to my knowledge, the actual sourcing that we have suggested is like, considerably later, like, more like, I think there's some bits in archaic classical, but it's primarily like, Hellenistic and later tradition. So it just has like, a complete, it's just like, a very different purpose, right? It's like, remember the time, the time period that we're imagining, that we're working with back then? Like, it is like, looking at like Shakespeare's Christianity to modern Christianity. They're both Christian. Do they resemble each other much? Like, I would argue, no. Not least that, you know, there's like, whatever, however

• 25:13Liv Albert?

  many other Christian traditions that sprung out since the time of Shakespeare till now, right? And so, you just got to remember that in terms of the Orphic tradition. And so, it's just, it's contradictory. So I'm really, I'm not saying anything particularly helpful about the Orphic tradition, but when we're talking about Hesiodic, I think we are looking at this idea of like, trying to understand what's already existing. And so, Matus, she is a concept and a goddess, but, but everyone is back then. In this, particularly in the Hesiodic tradition, almost every deity is also a concept, right? Iris, even in Homer, Iris is a messenger goddess in, in Homeric tradition. She is the rainbow. She's a goddess,

• 25:57Liv Albert?

  yes, but she's also just the rainbow. And that's true of Matus. She's a goddess, yes, but she is just wise counsel. This is true of, I mean, even Gaia, someone as simple as Gaia, right? She is Gaia. She's a goddess. She's earth. Uranus is a god. He's the sky. Helios is a god. He's the sun. So, you just have to remember that it might, it's annoying, right? Because it kind of feels like, ooh, there should be more, there should be more, what's going on here? Unfortunately, it's really a matter of trying to, like, it's just, it, it is, can be accounted for of just like, a very, like, an early culture finding its roots and developing its stories. And so, we often find these characters who

• 26:42Liv Albert?

  are goddesses and concepts. And the oceanid is another level on top of that, and I think it's a good, I mean, I'm going to be looking at this, I think, more in future episodes. It's hard to figure out how episodic it'll be and how much this is just like, I am working on a book about nymphs. But the nymphs also add this extra layer of intrigue when we're trying to understand the stories, because there are like, no hard and fast rules about what it means to be a nymph. If you Google it, it's going to tell you that nymphs are

• 27:23Liv Albert?

  like, quote-unquote, lesser goddesses. They always want them to be lesser. They're these lesser goddesses of nature, and often rivers and streams, whatever, right? And that's vaguely true. That is true, but it also fails to categorize like, a vast number of these goddesses that we know were technically called nymphs. And the oceanids are a really good example. The Nereids are a good example. Like, we have this idea of like, oh, they're just a nature deity, right? But, I mean, it, the same, it's, oh, there's so much, and I'm trying to decide what I will or will not edit too. But like, you know, these oceanids

• 28:04Liv Albert?

  are quote-unquote nymphs because they are the daughters of ocean, who is of course, confusingly, the freshwater river god, right? And so, they're goddesses of the ocean, but if you conceptualize it in terms of like, generations, they're older than Zeus. They're older than the Olympians. And, and yet, because they're nymphs, we call them, quote, lesser goddesses. But simultaneously, because of their parentage, the oceanids really specifically, and the Nereids, are also primordial deities. Like, they are, in terms of their like, birth structure, they're nearly equivalent to the Titans, but we don't call them the Titans, and, you know, we're, they're gods, but they're, it, it doesn't really make any sense. And

• 28:47Liv Albert?

  that's what I find so interesting. And you're right, like, Matus, other than being a daughter of ocean, has no connection to ocean, be it river or sea. She's just a goddess who happens to be the daughter of ocean. And, I mean, I think she's even often called a titan. Like, these are, a lot of the times, our ways of them is coming from such a later period where we have really lost, I think, the connection to like, reality and real life. And it's hard, because I, my research is not very deep in, in like, actual cult of worship. I'm, I'm actually like, literally reading like, basically a textbook on nymphs right now, so it'll get better. But I, I just wanted to talk about it because you're like, right

• 29:29Liv Albert?

  in all these ways, in that like, she is a paradox, she's really contradictory, all of these things. But I think it's, it's not as deep as you want it to be, or as it seems like it could be because of these things. Like, in truth, it is something that I think we'll never fully understand. It can't be fully categorized, because what we're looking at is just this, like, very early development of culture and cultural traditions and understandings and stories and all of these things. And so, you know, it doesn't, it doesn't have a, an explanation. It just is what it is. And the same, very similarly goes for Thetis and the Nereids, right? Like, Thetis as a character is, on her face, like ridiculously

• 30:13Liv Albert?

  important, right? She's, she's Achilles's mom. She goes and like, saves everything. She saves him by going and pleading to Zeus. We learn that she is able to plead to Zeus because she one time saved him from a potential coup. Like, she has a level of importance that does not track with this idea of like, she's just a nymph. That's in air quotes, right? Like, because there is no such thing as just a nymph. Nymph is a term that the more I research, the more I see, is kind of a catch-all way of understanding a, a young woman.

• 30:55Liv Albert?

  Or like even often like very young, you know, and, and we kind of categorize them all as, as nymphs. And then, once we've categorized them as nymphs, then we try to understand what a nymph is. And then we decide that, well, she's a lesser goddess of nature, despite the fact that an enormous amount of these goddesses that we call nymphs are in no way genealogically lesser, right? They are actually genealogically more ancient and therefore presumably more powerful. All of these things, they don't really work. They don't really make sense. And I think that's just part of it. It's hard. It's hard for us, but it's just kind of part of it. And I, I think it's really interesting. Also,

• 31:36Liv Albert?

  it is, you know, very confusing at times. And I didn't expect this to go on that long. S had another question, um, which is sort of similar, uh, just in the way that like Zeus's family and Zeus and Hera specifically are, are like, or the Olympians more broadly are like cosmologically, uh, defined, but also that cosmology is kind of minimized. Um, you know, Zeus being a god of the sky doesn't come in all that much. I mean, it does. He, you know, he has his lightning bolts and whatever, but like Hera being a goddess of that, uh, you know, there's a lot of this stuff. And I just think, without going too far further into my like somewhat philosophical ramblings, for all I said, I don't like

• 32:21Liv Albert?

  philosophy. Um, I really think it is, it is enormously a matter of, you have to remember where the stories are coming from as opposed to where the actual like, sort of cultural connections are coming from. Like, there's just an enormous difference between like occult practice and like this tradition of worship that was actually being maintained by humans in the real world. And the story, story, story, story, story, that they aren't connected, but there just is like an enormous gap because the people who were worshiping, the people who were just every, the day-to-day, regular folk who were involved in these cult traditions

• 33:02Liv Albert?

  around these gods, they had something completely different going on that we may or may not ever fully understand, but they were likely, like had little to no connection with the source that happens to survive for us, which tells this story. Right? Like, often it's Hesiod, probably in the case of Hesiod, people would have known because he was wide-ranging. But in terms of wider sourcing and like how we understand these gods in their wider like cosmos, yeah, there is a huge difference between just like what the everyday person understood and what the, all the various connections they had to these like earthly things compared to the stories. Because often the stories weren't interested in examining

• 33:43Liv Albert?

  that. They were interested in telling a specific narrative or a specific, you know, just like almost, you know, they, they often, the stories served a purpose where they meant to teach a lesson or not, or, you know, any of these things. But we just have to remember that there is an enormous divide between the stories and the culture. And those can be bridged, but there's just always going to be a divide that is very hard for us to understand now. But if you just keep thinking about how it's okay that it doesn't make sense, how can I understand it without it making sense? Like eventually you just kind of become obsessed because it is my favorite thing in the world.

• 34:31Liv Albert?

  This episode is brought to you by Quince. You know, the drill. Quince makes elevated everyday essentials using premium materials like Mongolian cashmere, organic cotton, and premium stretch denim. I have been speaking into a microphone about Quince for a while now, and I have no complaints. I have a bunch of their stuff. I've got a couple cute sweaters that, I mean, it's, it's nearing sweater season, so those will be back in the rotation anytime now. And I have this leather bag that I absolutely love. It's like this braided leather and I use it like basically every day. Because that's the thing, they have

• 35:13Liv Albert?

  really great basics. Like they have really great things that you can wear with so many other things. Just the options are endless. And as the weather gets colder, like all the sweaters in my closet, Quince has everything you need to round out your wardrobe from warm, responsibly sourced down jackets and cozy cashmere scarves and gloves to beautiful 14 karat gold jewelry that adds the perfect finishing touch. And of course, everything at Quince is priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands. They work directly with ethical factories and cut out the middlemen. So you're paying for quality, not brand markup. And I mean, if we haven't learned anything in the last 10 years, isn't it just getting

• 35:54Liv Albert?

  rid of the middlemen? You know, making things more affordable. So find the fall pieces you'll reach for most at Quince. Download the Quince app for app exclusive offers or go to quince.com. Get free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK too. And when Quince asks where you heard about them, let them know it was me. Let's talk about myths, baby. It's the best way to support the show.

• 36:23Speaker 01

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• 37:41Liv Albert?

  Okay, now it's time for a voice note.

• 37:46Speaker 02

  Hello, hello. I'm Hannah. Uh, because everybody seems to be in an Odyssey era right now. Um, I wanted to ask an Odyssey related question. So when I reread the Odyssey this year, prepping for unfortunately, um, Christopher Nolan's adaptation, uh, you know, I kept asking myself when Odysseus was retelling his version of his journeys, um, I was always questioning what is being made up? What is, um, you know, being dressed up to make Odysseus look better? What's, uh, potentially being omitted? So I wanted to just hear your take

• 38:27Speaker 02

  on that. See what you thought of, um, where Odysseus might be being truthful and where do you think he's stretching the truth a little bit, uh, with his storytelling? Love the podcast and looking forward to hearing your answer. Thanks.

• 38:45Liv Albert?

  Well, would you look at that? We have more questions about the Odyssey. I am not angry. Okay. I am so excited that you answer, that you asked this question, Hannah, because yes, like that's, to me, that is the most like mentally stimulating question of the Odyssey. And it's the thing that I find that, that like the wider world appears, like, and by that I mean, like the Hollywood of it all. Like, just they appear completely uninterested in that fact. I mean, it's true also of retellings, for the most part, that was one of the things that when I was working on my kids retelling of the Odyssey, that

• 39:30Liv Albert?

  I most wanted to emphasize. Because every other retelling, particularly for kids, but I think this is true for like 95% of the like retellings of the Odyssey as opposed to translations, is that the people adapting them just like tell the story chronologically, rather than having it be Odysseus telling the story of all of his most wild adventures. And I just think that's so boring. That's the most boring take to just be like, he left Troy and then he went and he visited all of these really shocking monsters that did like wildly terrible things that don't, doesn't seem to get replicated in other stories.

• 40:15Liv Albert?

  Wow. And then he got home. Like, that's such a boring take on what is so fascinating and weird and like, like, that's what makes the Odyssey is that you're, yeah, like, every bit of the story that involves monsters and witches and horror and the loss of like 700 of his crew members and 12 ships and all of this, like all of those bits, we just have to take Odysseus's word for it? And isn't it more fun to, to just like convey the story as that, that we just have to take his word for it? Because like, yeah, that's a really good question. Like, what, what is he telling the truth about? And so I'll

• 41:00Liv Albert?

  very proudly say that in my kids' adaptation, not only did I convey those scenes as Odysseus telling the story, but I also like really posed the question of what do we believe and what do we not believe? And isn't that like a more interesting way of, of taking in this story, of learning the story, all of these things? It makes Odysseus more interesting. It makes the whole thing more complex. It makes it like, he is the world's first unreliable narrator. And for some godforsaken reason, the people who tend to bring these stories to the mainstream, ignore that completely. And, ah, it drives me crazy. So thank you

• 41:44Liv Albert?

  for bringing it up. Because yeah, yeah, he's probably lying about like all of it. And isn't that more interesting to have to think about than just being like, oh, well, I guess this all just happened? Thank you, Hannah. That question was short and sweet. And I really needed, I needed it. Because it's crazy that, that we don't talk about that more. I mean, I do, but what about everyone else? And speaking about how my Odyssey was the best adaptation of the Odyssey to come out this year. But no brag. Here's another voice note.

• 42:23Speaker 03

  Okay Liv. Hello, my name's Sarah. I just got your book. This is the most wonderful thing I've ever seen.

• 42:32Speaker 03

  Also, why does it smell good? Why does your book smell good? I...

• 42:38Speaker 03

  Was that on purpose?

• 42:42Speaker 03

  Either way, I'm like five pages into it and I can't stop staring at the art. So I'm not sure when I'll actually start the book, but I am incredibly excited. Thank you so much. I'm very proud of you. I've been listening to your podcasts for a very long time and it brings me a lot of joy.

• 43:03Speaker 03

  Yeah. Have a nice night.

• 43:06Liv Albert?

  Well, that question was also very delightful. That one made my day. Why does it smell good? I don't know. I'm excited to hear that it smells good and it is so beautiful and honestly, like I truly, I'm so fucking proud of that book. I really am in a way that I have not felt with my other books. Like I'm so proud of my Medusa piece, but I contributed a small piece of that book and I don't get royalties or anything. So it's fine, but like, you know, it's not a big deal for me to promote it all that much because I got one little chunk of money once, but the Odyssey, the Odyssey, this one is one that is like, I finally got to make a thing that I'm legitimately proud of, that I think conveys the ancient world in a way that I think

• 43:51Liv Albert?

  it should be conveyed. All of these things, it just makes me really happy. And so the fact that people are just like picking it up and reading it and then telling me that they've been listening for so long and that they're proud of me and that it brings them joy, like

• 44:01Liv Albert?

  thank you. Like for real, like, because I have been doing this a long time. And for a while there, it was really weighing on me in a lot of different ways and I, I'm excited to kind of return to making this podcast for the absolute joy of it, for the fact that I really love this shit so fucking much and I could talk about it forever and I want to. And so to just hear from you guys that, my, I'm really excited about that book. Oh, oh, and you mentioned that it was pretty and that the illustrations, so that, thank you

• 44:42Liv Albert?

  again, ADHD, but I did want to take this opportunity to one, point out that yes, the illustrations are amazing. Hazem Asif did an incredible job, but on top of that, as of today, we have won silver at these like junior design awards, which admittedly I had never heard of before, but it's pretty fucking cool. So my book has officially won an award. It was for design, which is the part I was least involved with, but

• 45:10Liv Albert?

  the design only helped to emphasize my text. So I'm still trying to find a way to feel like that's a win for me. It's a win for the book regardless, and I'm really proud of it. And the illustrations are beautiful and I just love how bright and colorful it is, particularly compared to Nolan, like, well, if you want a fun version of the Odyssey that's accurate, have I got that for you? All right. I mean, why stop with the Odyssey now? It's, it's what I have. It's what I have. This comes from just the letter C. We got a lot of letters today and I appreciate that. They said, "Listening to the death of Argus and mention of careless women/slaves, was this Odysseus' reason for hanging all the slaves after killing the suitors?

• 45:55Liv Albert?

  What was the punishment of not taking care of pets?" I have to admit, I actually weirdly didn't see this one come through, or I would have answered it in an Odyssey reading episode because it's more specifically relevant, but I want to answer it anyway. Unfortunately, I don't thi- well, I guess not unfortunately. I don't even know. This is, it's all just so, wah! But I don't, I don't think so. I mean, I think, I think the death of Argus the dog is generally fascinating because it does read so modern in a way that's just like, oh, it's so timeless. I think the way that people

• 46:36Liv Albert?

  interact with pets and so specifically dogs too, and just the way that, that dogs have been domesticated for so long.

• 46:46Liv Albert?

  So I think it's more, it is a good and kind of beautiful representation of like an ancient person's bond with their animal, but I also think it is an unfortunate representation of, you know, the ways that humans by and large are still not always kind to animals. And so I've always just been generally fascinated with it as this example because the dog is so acknowledged to have been important for Odysseus and also to be like 20 years old. And yet everyone else, like Eumaeus, the swineherd, like he notes it, right? But like presumably he hasn't been trying to take care of this dog and no one else

• 47:31Liv Albert?

  has been trying to take care of this dog. And it's interesting to me because, I mean, I think generally it is a more of a, I don't know, I don't necessarily know if it was intended this way in the epic, but I do think, in my opinion, it's more of an indictment on Telemachus and Penelope to a, I mean, I guess a similar extent. It's really clear that she does hold a certain degree of power in the setup where she is in Ithaca and that the whole situation. I mean, I don't necessarily know what the dynamics would have been because it was Odysseus' dog and it was a hunting dog and, and you know, I grew up in a household where the dogs

• 48:11Liv Albert?

  were on the couch stealing spots and taking over beds and whatnot. And you know, that's just not always the way it is. So I don't necessarily know if it's, it's much of that indictment, but I do think it is interesting the way that it, I just think, I mean, there's a lot of, there's a lot of things in the Odyssey that I think can be accurately read as, I mean, just representative of the nature of like enslavement back then, unfortunately? Like, I think, I think Argus is sort of unrelated to the, the general attitude towards

• 48:52Liv Albert?

  not all enslaved people, but there's very clearly a kind of attitude with regards to like, you know, quote unquote, good or bad slaves and like how an enslaved person should be,

• 49:09Liv Albert?

  you know, like loyal to their family, right? Like clearly, you know, it's seen in the Argus scene, but it's also much more broadly seen amongst like all of that kind of Ithaca scenes, you know, particularly in the palace, both with the enslaved women and the enslaved men.

• 49:30Liv Albert?

  I think that it's really providing this kind of commentary on how the aristocracy of, of, you know, at least a certain time period in ancient Greece saw enslaved people. They saw it was just like nature of the world. And it is important to remember that enslavement in this time period was like very, very different from the transatlantic slave trade and the like chattel slavery that existed, you know, with the white people abducting people from Africa. Like it is very different. We have to remember that people became enslaved in this period

• 50:14Liv Albert?

  via, it's not like it's more ethical, but it's less like based in like a notion of superiority, right? Like when it comes to the transatlantic slave trade, this was colonizing white people believing that they fundamentally had the right to own people who weren't white. Like it's a fundamental notion of superiority that it just carries this like extra level. Whereas in the ancient world, people became enslaved because they were, their city lost a war or they were abducted by pirates. Like very often, you know, women and children

• 50:56Liv Albert?

  were enslaved after a war as, you know, the only survivors. And so they were sold off to people like that.

• 51:04Liv Albert?

  And so I think that there's this idea that it's just a matter of life and like sometimes your town gets like completely sacked and you get sent off to be a slave. Like it's very much this kind of like, well, that's just it. And you have to, you know, make the best of it. So you better be loyal to your family and you better love them. Like that's kind of more what all of that commentary seems to me. Like it's very much this like, okay, Eumaeus is good slave and Minetius is bad slave. And unless he's the good one. Anyway, there's a couple Ms. But Melantho, Melanthius is the bad one. Minetius might be a different good one. Anyway, there's too many names,

• 51:49Liv Albert?

  but Melantho and Melanthius, you know, are, are meant to be these kind of like bad slaves. And I really, unfortunately, I think that there's like nothing in there that can necessarily be like a positive representation of anything in the ancient world. Like it's just a matter of that was how they saw things and you better be a loyal, happy slave. You better miss the guy who owns you. He's been gone a while. Like it's, it's just, it's just a very different world, I guess.

• 52:26Liv Albert?

  But it is interesting the way that they so clearly emphasize the importance of Argus and the like emotional connection that Odysseus has with the dog. Like, that part's nice. Eh, it's nice. We love dogs. Who doesn't love dogs? I also think it's delightfully indicative of Greek myth and how it can be like really difficult. It's just how like it, the way that it is not how stories would exist today. I love that. Like, there are three different Arguses in the Odyssey, right? There's Argos, the place. There's Argos, the, uh, the, the, the guard that Hermes has killed in the past

• 53:11Liv Albert?

  and therefore is called Argia Phontis, the slayer of Argus. And then there's Argus, the dog. And if you like passed me before I understood the, the sort of properties of language and transliteration, if you like passed me or like, oh, but it's at least helpful because sometimes it's spelled with a U and others are spelled with an O. That's just one having a more Latin spelling in English and one having a more Greek spelling in English, but they were the same word very much. Unless I'm totally crazy, but I'm pretty sure they were the same word. And I think that's interesting. And it's just like, you really had to understand so many additional things, like so many naming structures and these epithets, these forms of, of phrasing certain people like, oh, it's so intricate and I'm utterly obsessed.

• 53:55Liv Albert?

  And I really feel for people who try to read it out of nowhere with no backing because gosh, there's a lot you don't have, you don't know that you don't know until you realize you don't know it.

• 54:21Speaker 01

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• 55:06Speaker 04

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• 55:53Liv Albert?

  Okay, next up I have a, another text, uh, question from, none other than Sophia. Sophia was on one of last year's group trips with Michaela and I. And I, this one came through, I was really excited actually, and I like, but I'm still here with an answer. Okay, so Sophia says, hello, here is me with another food question. Maybe this is me totally projecting my perspective, but I wonder if there is ever any mention of anyone being vegetarian in the ancient world. I mean, in the Mediterranean region, I know India's a different story. I was just listening to the latest reading episode and there's a part where I think the slaughter and consumption of the animals as beings juxtaposed, juxtaposed slash combined with the premonition of the slaughter of Odysseus, that Odysseus will

• 56:37Liv Albert?

  unleash. I can't help but associate the descriptions of meat with violence and carnage of war, but maybe that is just my pescatarian perspective. I guess my question is, do you think even though meat eating and sacrificing animals is normalized, it could have been used as a narrative tool to make the reader slash listener think of bloodshed? And then another question associated with that one. I have read a bit about how the Grimm brothers gathered the fairy tales and then wrote them down. And there was definitely an editing process there, where they maybe adorned the narrative and/or picked their favorite versions, et cetera. Of course, the process of turning oral epics into, for example, the Odyssey was so much earlier and we cannot know. But do you, what, what do you imagine? All the detailed descriptions of them. But anyway, okay, I got too excited, so I'm stopping reading the question. It's really just the end of that sentence because I'm excited.

• 57:21Liv Albert?

  There's so much to say here. Okay, so firstly, I'm going to talk about the vegetarian, uh, question first, but that is also in part because I think that the second part of the question, now I'm like half scrolling, apologies. But there's, there's just more I think I have on that. Regardless, I'm going to get to both bits because it, they're connected and it's interesting. So the vegetarianism, very fascinating, but yes, thank you for clarifying. I want to make clear, anything I'm talking about now is the ancient Greek specifics. They absolutely were not the first to do this by any stretch of the imagination. India was, was at the vegetarianism long, long, long before. Absolutely. This is a

• 58:01Liv Albert?

  Greek response. And so I, because this is like such a niche, uh, historical bit, I honestly didn't know how to, like, really easily find an answer without reading a ton of articles. Um, so I've just got, this is just Wikipedia for now, but I think it's a good, it's definitely a kind of jumping off point and kind of the most I know, just because this is historical. But the reason why I was excited is that I had in my little probable autistic, definitely ADHD brain, I was like, oop, I know some, I know there's something weird about vegetarianism and like philosophy and it's probably a lot of

• 58:42Liv Albert?

  like mythologized history, you know, in that, in that way, but it's fun regardless. So the basics of it are absolutely, there was, um, what we would now understand to be vaguely vegetarianism in ancient Greece. It wasn't necessarily from a, I mean, it, part of it might have been from a moral perspective. Um, so, uh, apparently they, that this diet, which I can't figure out, the sourcing is not clear on where I could go to find more, but like how often this term actually was used. There's a lot of times where you'll be like, well, this is what it was called. And then there's like literally one instance of it. And you're like, that's a bit of a stretch. But according to this, it says that,

• 59:26Liv Albert?

  um, the vegetarian diet was called abstinence from beings with a soul. The ancient Greek is, uh, apoche, apoche, uh, empsichon. Not, not all that helpful. Um, but it was, okay, it says, uh, it says, as a principle or deliberate way of life, it was always limited to a rather small group of practitioners belonging to a specific philosophical schools or certain religious groups. I really wish Wikipedia was better, uh, with sourcing because I did, in theory, used to love it for just like going in and being like, ooh, I would like to know where this comes from. And then I would find more, but it's not that great anymore. Anyway, um, but, uh, it says that the, okay, it's using the lotus eaters as

• 1:00:11Liv Albert?

  a reference to this, which I don't necessarily think is, anyway. Wikipedia says that the lotus eaters, the lotofagi, uh, are an indigenous people on the North African coast who, according to Herodotus, lived on nothing but the fruits of a plant called lotus. Diodorus Siculus, uh, says that there were tales of vegetarian peoples or tribes in Ethiopia. I, yeah, I mean, not to say that it's not. Now, that reads to me as someone taking Herodotus or Diodorus Siculus at face value, which I don't think is always particularly reasonable. They were probably writing an enormous amount of xenophobia into their work. Um, and so

• 1:00:55Liv Albert?

  like, I don't think that that's reasonable. Um, but there were apparently like generally some practicing vague vegetarianisms. Now, they also, Wikipedia also says, this is funny for the beginning of this episode, that the orphics may have practiced vegetarianism, but again, doesn't have an ancient source, so, uh, hard for me to go double check that. Um, there is some kind of like old rumor slash mythologizing around the mathematician religion, whatever, everything Pythagoras. Maybe he was naughty. I just assume mathematician because of like the Pythagorean theorem, but I, I, I don't know. Anyway, um, it, it, apparently there are some connections to that, which was what I was remembering because there's

• 1:01:40Liv Albert?

  some weird stuff with Pythagoras that I don't, my microphone is being really fucking weird today. So if you hear anything shitty, sorry, I'm trying to cut it all out. Um, but I keep having to re-record bits. Um, but I remember a thing with Pythagoras and beans. And I'm sad that I have to re-record that because I think it's important and vegetarians love beans. There was a whole thing with beans. Um, but that's mostly what I remember. So I'm not going to pretend that that is, uh, scientifically sound. But apparently there, there's some notions about, you know, what they did or did not eat. There was definitely some kind of intentionality to, if not avoid all animals, then to avoid certain animals.

• 1:02:20Liv Albert?

  Um, yeah, there was also, uh, there's this guy, Empedocles, who I also don't know enough about, except that he is wacky. Um, but here we have, again, in, in Wikipedia, they say that in the fifth century BCE, the philosopher Empedocles distinguished himself as a radical advocate of vegetarianism specifically and of respect for animal, animals in general. Um, I remember him from Assassin's Creed Odyssey because he doesn't wear any clothes and you have to, um, get him out of a prison on Kithara, but, uh, there's the probable autism coming back. Um, so I don't know the details of that. Uh, it also says that

• 1:03:04Liv Albert?

  there's a fictionalized portrayal of Pythagoras in Ovid's Met, which I don't remember, but I'm sure I read to you all a while ago, in which he advocates a form of strict vegetarianism. It was through this portrayal that Pythagoras was best known to English speakers throughout the early modern period and prior to the coinage of the word vegetarianism, vegetarians were referred to in English as Pythagoreans. Okay, that's where I'm getting this old mythic kind of idea, uh, on, on Pythagoras and vegetarianism. This Wikipedia article, I, I think there's probably beans somewhere if I was in a position to do, uh, further digging, but quite frankly, I'm in a complete obsessive, uh, research hole on nymphs. So they're taking priority.

• 1:03:47Liv Albert?

  Okay, I actually am gonna do another um Q and A episode soon because I have two more recordings that I haven't gotten to, but I really want to because they're long ones and I was, anyway, so this will be more, um, there'll be another Q and A soon. But in the meantime, I want to finish on um this, that end question of Sophia's regarding um the general transmission of the Odyssey, but I also want to tie it in with, I have two questions here that are generally related, so I want to give you those too. So first, Henry said, "Hi Liv, I hope you're doing as well as you can these days. I'm truly ever grateful for the work you do. Sending love." Okay, thank you for that. Um, "I had a question for your Odyssey readings. I believe once you mentioned in passing

• 1:04:30Liv Albert?

  the lost books of the Odyssey. I can't quite remember exactly where you talked about this, or if I'm confusing myself, but am I right? If I'm right, can you please elaborate on this? Thank you." Thank you, Henry. And another though, from JoJo. JoJo said, "I know Homer's Odyssey is just one telling of this story. Do we know anything about the history of the Odyssey and different versions of the story, and how it got passed down, and how we have Homer's version?" So, all three of these questions, you know, the two of them, then tagging on with the, the end of Sophia's there are really interesting, and I can't say that I have like any hard, fast, like solid answers for you, but I think that generally talking about this as a question is helpful regardless.

• 1:05:16Liv Albert?

  So just going back to Sophia's, because I think the Grimm's Fairy Tales is a really good example. Um, you know, she was mentioning uh that uh, you know, that this is a similar process to kind of transmitting oral epics. Um, I mean, granted, like, well over a thousand, fifteen hundred maybe, years later, um, but it's, it's really helpful. I don't necessarily think it answers any questions. So again, I don't, I don't know all of the details, like, I'm sure someone could come on the show and talk for like hours about this, but to my memory from some past episodes, including my, um, some of my past episodes with Joel Christiansen, who is a Homerist, um, I know

• 1:06:00Liv Albert?

  just a little bit about this. So to kind of not start at the beginning, but to fully contextualize, the understanding, the general specifically, is that as oral storytelling traditions, um, these narratives were probably being told from as early as the seventh or eighth century BCE. Now, we also know that it wasn't until, I think, the late archaic period, early archaic period,

• 1:06:35Liv Albert?

  maybe, um, uh, so more like fifth or sixth centuries, you see, that anything from the Iliad and the Odyssey were ever like actually put into words on a, for lack of a better word, page. They didn't have pages, but you know what I mean. Um, like, it was hundreds of years later that they ever actually were like, "Okay, we should probably put this into something that will survive." And in all likelihood, the intention for that was, was just to preserve it. Um, because

• 1:07:14Liv Albert?

  uh, until like a little while later, um, nobody wrote, uh, nobody wrote, period, right? It, it's in the archaic period and later archaic period that people start writing for the sake of it. It's not until, to my knowledge, it's not until like, um, some of the early philosophy kind of vibes that we get anyone writing in prose, for one. Prior to that, everyone is writing in poetry, um, but nobody physically wrote with the intention of like handing it to somebody else to read, right? That was never it. It was never like, "Oh, look, I took this oral story that we've been telling each other for 200 years, and I put it into this little document, and then I handed

• 1:07:58Liv Albert?

  it over to a friend, and they sat and quietly read." That just wasn't a thing. Um, generally, reading was not like a quiet, solitary thing, like, these were things that were like very social, very cultural, very, very outspoken, very much like entertainment, right? And so it was this kind of new idea to be like, "We're writing it down so that it's still here?" And presumably, it was written down and then never read for like probably a good, long time. It was not preserved to be just read. Um, and when it was preserved in such a form that, you know, we, we kind of

• 1:08:40Liv Albert?

  understand like, "Okay, this is when the story got solidified-ish," like, put into a format that couldn't easily change again. We think that that was the first time it's happening in this archaic period, and it's happening in Athens. Not necessarily for any other reason, other than like Athens had a real thing for documentation. And we have a real love-hate relationship with that, because it means we have a lot of documents, which is sick, but it also means that all of our documents, or like the majority of them, are from Athens, which means that we have like a very specific, very strict understanding of ancient Greece that is quite specific to Athens, not in like across the cultural history, but specifically in terms of like surviving literal

• 1:09:23Liv Albert?

  documents. Now, when I say surviving documents for something like the Odyssey, I don't even mean that like, like there's certainly, there is no version of the Odyssey that is actually from the sixth or fifth centuries BC, to be very clear. There is no version that is actually that old. I believe, I don't even think we have something necessarily older than a thousand years. We have fragments sometimes, like they recently found a new fragment of papyrus that was like buried with someone, I think. Um, and it happens to be like a portion of the Catalog of Ships in the Iliad, which is fucking hilarious. Like, the idea that someone would get buried with

• 1:10:07Liv Albert?

  the Catalog of Ships is just priceless. Um, but that's like the oldest, I don't know if it's the fully oldest, but like basically the oldest things we have are fragments. We don't have like a surviving source that is actually that old. The ones that we have, I believe, like, the Odyssey, like, I think they're probably like only like a thousand years old. Um, I don't know the individual cases on like, you know, Homer versus everything else, but I know that an enormous amount has been preserved because of uh, uh, tradition, and because of generally um, the Arabic control in that region. They had a real thing for Greek texts, and the, the people we love to bomb so

• 1:10:47Liv Albert?

  much in the West are the reason that we have so much text from the West to use as a precursor to bombing them. It's totally cool and normal. It's totally cool and normal. Um, but that's all to say that like, what we, when we say that something survives, like, we don't mean a literal thing from all the way back then. Um, it, which is also very confusing, but that is all like a very, I don't even know, roundabout, but I hope contextualizing way of saying that we, we know that there was a period of kind of, there's a technical word for it that I'm not gonna remember, but it's, we, we do know that there was this period where the Greeks were like, "Okay, we

• 1:11:29Liv Albert?

  need to land on one version-ish of Homer." Because there were so many, there were so many variations of it. We do know that there was a period where they were like, "Okay, we're gonna pick one, we're gonna record it." I think there's uh, theories connected to that about, you know, the inclusion of Athens, because obviously the story that Homer is telling is hundreds of years older even than the oral tradition, right? It's supposed to be this kind of imagined history of the Bronze Age, the late Bronze Age, it's very anachronistic, that's how we know that it was written physically in a way in this like archaic period, because iron is mentioned, so

• 1:12:12Liv Albert?

  they had iron, which means it was after the Bronze Age and all of that. So even though I, I, I can't imagine that we have a ton of actual documentation on this process, but we do know that it was a process. So there was at some point a time period where there were alternate versions of the Odyssey. I imagine that there, so, here's this thing. I think, and I've been trying to figure it out, I think there is a database that people get access to when they're in academia, and I'm furious, and I am just so, anyway, I think there's, I just don't know how to find this stuff, quite frankly. Fragments are the thing that I have the most trouble sorting through, because-

• 1:12:57Liv Albert?

  Fragments often, not always, but often, and I would imagine a majority of fragments are not like literal fragments in the way that say, like, a lot of sappho has been found in literal fragments, like just bits and pieces of papyrus, right? Whereas in the case of fragments of something like Homer, we're not talking necessarily about a physical fragment, except like in the case of the someone getting buried with the catalog of ships. What we're typically talking about is later texts from hundreds of years later that are like, "It's as Homer said," and then they quote a section from the Odyssey, and then modern people are like, "But wait, this is not in the version that survives,

• 1:13:41Liv Albert?

  and therefore must be some kind of alternate that, I mean, may or may not predate, but definitely existed as an alternate," right? Like, a majority of fragments are somebody else quoting it, which means a handful of things. Like, it means we can't be 100% certain that that was real, or that they have recorded it accurately, right? Like, it's basically a typo. That's very possible that someone wrote it down wrong, or misunderstood it, or forgot, or all of these things, right? So when we have something that exists only because somebody else from like 500 years later was talking about it, and they were like, "This is what it said," grain of salt, like, it's absolutely valid,

• 1:14:22Liv Albert?

  and it adds so much, but like, it does become baffling. And I am in a position where, like, I don't know how to find the answers to these questions. I eventually do read, like, every book on Homer, but I have a lot of trouble focusing on long form right now, homeworking on it. But that's all to say, like, there was this process. I want to learn more. I think it's fascinating to think about, but it's one of these things that, because it is so niche and typically so academic in its focus, like, I am having trouble, even though I desperately want to understand all of this. But when it comes to fragments, when it comes to that kind of preservation, man, it's confusing.

• 1:15:02Liv Albert?

  So that is all like a very roundabout way to say that, like, there are probably different versions. I think there are fragments that I need to find. I think there's probably some answers to these questions that I just don't know where to look. I'm gonna be totally honest to you right now, like, with the current form of the internet, it is becoming more and more difficult for me to find things that I used to know how to find. I'm trying not to panic about it, frankly, but like, the website, one of the two websites that I use for like an enormous amount of my work, and the one, the one that's been with me since like day one, theoi.com, honestly, like, you'll hear me,

• 1:15:44Liv Albert?

  like, I have been singing that site's praises forever. And lately, their server has been down on a lot of bits and pieces, and I've been like, try, oh, and I'm like, oh, my God, if you fully go, if I lose access to this site, like, I might die. And similarly, I work through a lot of my understanding of ancient Greek and how, like, the translation functions. Like, I learned so much of that from specifically Tuft's, like, Perseus project, because it can show you the Greek and the English side by side, and I live for that. I live for it. I've been searching through it for so, so many different things, and it also just keeps having error messages, like,

• 1:16:27Liv Albert?

  at least 60% of the time that I try to use it. And, um, just, yeah, it's becoming really hard to actually learn anything on the current internet, because it is being sucked up by AI slop. But if anyone ever has any suggestions, um, please, I'm here for books, too. I just, now I'm trying to figure out where to find them. Um, you know, times are wild. Times are wild. And I just, you know what? I'm gonna actually just, totally for me, but also for you guys, I'm gonna finish this off by reading one more just lovely message that I got. And I, again, I'm gonna come back, because I have a couple more, and people have had some really good ones. But this, just to wrap

• 1:17:12Liv Albert?

  things up in a nice little bow, this comes from Marcus, who is Cookie Boy on Spotify. And the second, the second they said the name, I was like, "Oh, I know," because I love those Spotify comments, and I recognize those names, and it's delightful. I love when I recognize people's handles. There's a handful of those, and it's just, it's so fun. But anyway, Cookie Boy said, "Hey, Liv, just wanted to say that you've really opened my eyes to all the horrors of the world. I used to be super ignorant of everything going on. I used to say I only do about it, but that's just not true. This stuff does affect me, and in such a systemic way. I'm a straight passing Mexican man who lives in the US. Everything going on right now is just terrible

• 1:17:53Liv Albert?

  for everyone, and you always are there to make sure everyone is being heard. Just know that everyone appreciates you." And I sometimes struggle with whether I should read those aloud on the show, because it feels really like self-aggrandizing, but then if I think about it hard enough, I'm like, it's not self-aggrandizing. It's, I, I'm really grateful for this message, and I'm grateful to read it, and I think that that is like a really understandable mentality. It's really easy, particularly in North America, as, you know, we exist in this imperial core, you know,

• 1:18:29Liv Albert?

  we exist, you know, as members of the empire, even when we hate it, and when we are against that empire. But we, we are a part of it. I mean, my country to a lesser extent, but I'll say it right here, I think capitalist Mark Carney is out to replace the states, as I have always thought is the most disgustingly, it's just so gross. Like, it's just a dumb thing to say, and it implies that we in the West know better than other people, and it's bullshit colonialist imperial bullshit. Anyway, I'm convinced that Mark Carney is trying to make Canada into that. Um, but it just, overall,

• 1:19:12Liv Albert?

  whoever's worse, you know, we, we do exist in the privilege of this imperial core. I mean, you know, obviously, as a someone of Mexican heritage, like, you're, you know, especially in the States, like, facing it far more than I as a white, colonizing Canadian ever would, but it's just really easy to think that, like, it doesn't affect you, or there's nothing you can do. And, I mean, I don't have, like, any, I don't even really have any, like, go-to ideas about how that's not applicable. I just know it's not. And I also think, I just think that, yeah, the, the, if, if we exist in a space where we can speak out, I think we should, and I'm very grateful to do so.

• 1:19:55Liv Albert?

  I'm, it's one of those things, like, the world is weighing me down, but I simultaneously, I just, like, I will always want to use my voice, whether it's just because I want to rage against all of this, or, you know, it's just, I think it's a role, particularly as me, as a white person in Canada, and somebody who is just generationally white Canadian, like, I think, I think my family came here really early. And I just think, yeah, I mean, for me, I find that to be my role, in a way, like, doing it through myth and through history, because that's the other thing, too,

• 1:20:37Liv Albert?

  right? The more you learn about history, the more you see it happening in front of your eyes, and the pattern recognition is, is wild, and I'm really happy to be able to kind of share that. That's actually more of what I really want to be doing, is looking at the, those, those aspects. And I mean, if, I'm sure I've said at least part of this 1,000 different times, but, you know, I focus my work specifically on feminist causes. But I also just want to point out, and let this kind of like stick with you in some kind of way, like, think about it, conceptualize it. You know,

• 1:21:20Liv Albert?

  I, the patriarchy that controls us is the same control mechanism that defines white supremacy. White supremacy, in the West specifically, and capitalism and patriarchy are all, they're just this little triangle of everything that has led us to where we are today. They are intrinsically tied. It is why white woman feminism is such a problem, because those things are so tied, like...

• 1:22:00Liv Albert?

  And I, I don't fully know what I'm, you know, saying here, other than to just point that out. But as someone who has talked so much about the patriarchy and to a lesser extent, white supremacy and capitalism, I now see how those things are just, just, they're so wound up together. They're so entwined that we can't do one and not the others. Right? It's why, again, white feminism as a kind of concept that exists specifically to support white women and nobody else. Like, that is just another construct of the white

• 1:22:45Liv Albert?

  supremacist patriarchal capitalist system that we're under. Right? Because if white women can use their feminism to bring themselves up to men and leave everyone else behind, that exact same superiority of, and that exact same white supremacy, like, all of that gets solidified even deeper into our systems. And, I mean, it's not anything for white women. It's not, and it doesn't even benefit us. It just benefits the system. And, and I don't know. I just, it is so important right now. And it's been weighing me down in a way. This year was really a lot. And I'm really excited to have some of this. I

• 1:23:28Liv Albert?

  feel a weight lifted right now, just in terms of how I can go about doing things and general, like, I just feel lighter in a way that I haven't in a while, I guess I'm saying. And these messages help with that so enormously. It means a lot for me to hear that my work is valued and that it is actually making a difference. Because for all I do want to just talk about mythology for the rest of my life, my, in my world, there is no way to talk about my love of mythology without talking about the ramifications and the implications that that mythology and that culture has today. I mean, the more I work on this myth, myth,

• 1:24:13Liv Albert?

  nymph, the more I work on this nymph that and really put it into words, but it's just, I mean, we, I, the amount that I just see, the, the ripples of even something as far back and fantastical and, you know, all of those other things, even something like that Greek mythology, like, I can see the ways that it has impacted people today. And I just, oh, I just want to talk about it. I just want to talk about it so much. Anyway, I'm gonna stop rambling. Thank you all so much for these questions. Please feel free to send some more. I'm gonna do another Q and A soon because I've got more loveliness to share from all of you. But in the meantime, like, thank you for being here. Tell me what

• 1:24:56Liv Albert?

  stories you want to hear next. Tell me what myths you're missing, which ones you want me to do a deeper dive on, with something that I told years ago that you'd love to hear again, but like, way more in depth, because that's the difference. Just generally, thank you all. I really welcome any and all feedback like this. It absolutely makes my day. And you're all super cool and lovely. And I am Liv, and I love this shit, like, way too much, probably, but gods, I'm going with it.

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