#114: The Athlete (And Artist) Who Cheats Death, Jimmy Chin

Jimmy Chin (@jimkchin https://twitter.com/jimkchin) is an artist and professional athlete, often at the same time. If Chase Jarvis http://www.chasejarvis.com/ and Laird Hamilton https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laird_Hamilton had a love child, it would be Jimmy. He has participated in and documented breakthrough expeditions around the planet, from climbing first ascents in the Karakoram https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karakoram to skiing first descents in the Himalayas https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Himalayas. He is one of the few people to both climb Mount Everest and ski it from the summit. Most recently, he filmed and directed the incredible feature documentary MERU http://www.merufilm.com/, which is in theaters now and won the 2015 Audience Award at Sundance. What is MERU http://www.merufilm.com/? In the high-stakes game of big-wall climbing, the Shark's Fin on Mount Meru is the ultimate prize. Everest is a cakewalk by comparison. Sitting at the headwaters of the sacred Ganges River in Northern India, the Shark's Fin has seen more failed attempts by elite climbing teams over the past 30 years than any other ascent in the Himalayas. This movie http://www.fourhournewsletter.com/click.html?x=a62e&lc=Wp&mc=e&s=dWIbA&u=w&y=P& is the story of one group's journey to conquer it—a white-knuckle quest of friendship, sacrifice, hope and obsession. How Jimmy captured it on film while risking his life is almost impossible to fathom. In this episode of the podcast, we talk about his origins, training, nutrition, gear, and MERU, of course. Suffice to say, if you want a benevolent kick in the ass, the film MERU http://www.merufilm.com/ is your assignment. I saw it a few weeks ago, and all my family could say for minutes afterward was, "Whoa…." My refrain was, "Holy shit…," which I muttered to myself at least 20 times in 90 minutes. It's an amazing, terrifying, and inspiring edge-of-your-seat experience. Show notes and links for this episode can be found at www.fourhourworkweek.com/podcast http://www.fourhourworkweek.com/podcast. This podcast is brought to you by TrunkClub http://trunkclub.com/tim. I hate shopping with a passion. And honestly I'm not good at it, which means I end up looking like I'm colorblind or homeless. Enter TrunkClub http://trunkclub.com/tim, which provides you with your own personal stylist and makes it easier than ever to shop for clothes that look great on your body. Just go to trunkclub.com/tim http://trunkclub.com/tim and answer a few questions, and then you'll be sent a trunk full of awesome clothes. They base this on your sizes, preferences, etc. The trunk is then delivered free of charge both ways, so you only pay for clothes that you keep. If you keep none, it costs you nothing. To get started, check it out at trunkclub.com/tim http://trunkclub.com/tim. This podcast is also brought to you by Mizzen + Main http://mizzenandmain.com/collections/tim. These are the only "dress" shirts I now travel with -- fancy enough for important dinners but made from athletic, sweat-wicking material http://fourhourworkweek.com/shirts. No more ironing, no more steaming, no more hassle. Click here for the exact shirts I wear most often http://mizzenandmain.com/collections/tim. Don't forget to use the code "TIM" at checkout. Enjoy!

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Tim Ferriss?

  I'm looking at your stamp, the hunkle for your name. And so it looks like, so it looks like it's Jing Guo something, right? Guo, I don't know how to say your last name.

• 0:10Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 0:11Tim Ferriss?

  I can't, I don't know.

• 0:12Speaker 01

  One of your, one of your 50 languages.

• 0:15Tim Ferriss?

  Well, I can't, I can't.

• 0:16Speaker 01

  That's pretty good.

• 0:17Tim Ferriss?

  I can't spot the other character. What is your Chinese?

• 0:20Speaker 01

  Well, you know, it's because it's kind of the old, it's kind of the ancient calligraphy, older calligraphy. So it's Wei, as in Wayfeng, like bravery or valor. My father was, he was a nationalist. So it basically says my paternal name and then national valor.

• 0:40Tim Ferriss?

  National valor. Optimal minimal.

• 0:44Speaker 02

  At this altitude, I can run flat out for a half mile before my hands start shaking.

• 0:49Speaker 03

  Can I ask you a personal question?

• 0:51Speaker 01

  Now would be an appropriate time.

• 0:53Speaker 04

  What if I did the opposite?

• 0:55Speaker 02

  I'm a cybernetic organism living tissue over metal endoskeleton.

• 1:04Tim Ferriss?

  This episode is brought to you by Trunk Club. I hate shopping with a passion. Going shopping for fun to me is like, let's go do our taxes. I don't get it. It's something that I have to do, but I don't like it at all. And quite frankly, I'm not good at it. I always end up looking like I'm colorblind or homeless or something like that. So ROI really sucky. And as a result, I decided to try Trunk Club and I, I expected to dislike it, quite frankly. But here's how it works and here's why I'm now a huge fan. And just as a prelude, the items that I kept from them, I've had more compliments from random women on like T-shirts and shorts and these funky green shoes that I got than ever before, which proves that I don't know what I'm doing and they do.

• 1:48Tim Ferriss?

  You go to trunkclub.com/tim, you answer a couple of questions, then you get assigned a personal stylist. So mine was Robin. Then they send you a trunk full of awesome stuff that they predict you will like and look good in based on your sizes, preferences, et cetera, that they've covered in this short phone call. It was really short to the point. Then, this trunk is delivered to your home. It's free of charge both ways, so you only pay for clothes that you keep. If you keep none of them, that's fine. You mail the whole thing back with a prepaid label. They even include tape to shut the box, and you're good to go. Costs you nothing. There's no ongoing subscription. This is not a subscription service. So, only when you ask for a trunk, you will get a trunk. And I expected to keep maybe two items out of eight. You know, I didn't want a thousand things sent to me.

• 2:32Tim Ferriss?

  So, I got about eight things sent to me, and I expected to keep two, because they give you a preview online to show you what's coming. And I ended up keeping four. And I've been traveling with those. I have very minimalist luggage, but I've been traveling for a couple of weeks, and I've brought everything with me, because it's been so multipurpose and so well-received. It's kind of blown my mind, quite frankly. So, trunkclub.com/tim. You get premium clothing, great advice, for zero work. So, it's a great trifecta. And the way they make money is really easy. I mean, they buy high-quality clothing at volume, and they just charge you the normal retail pricing. But, obviously, they buy it at a cheaper price. So, there's no tricks, no hidden costs. It's really easy to be the best-dressed man in the room or on the street.

• 3:16Tim Ferriss?

  So, their entire styling service is free for now. Like I mentioned, check it out. trunkclub.com/tim. They also have clubhouses, so you can check that out, which is pretty cool. So, trunkclub.com/tim, and you can get a trunk filled with sweet clothing very easily that will make the ladies want you and make the men want to be you. It is a good ROI. And for someone who's always hated fashion, now I can actually look fashionable with next-to-no-time expenditure. So, pretty sweet. trunkclub.com/tim. Check it out. This podcast is brought to you by Mizzen & Maine. Don't worry about the spelling. All you need to know is this. I have organized my entire life around avoiding fancy shirts, because you have to iron them, you sweat through them,

• 3:59Tim Ferriss?

  they smell really easily, they're a pain in the ass. Mizzen & Maine has given me the only shirt that I need. And what I mean by that, and Kelly Starrett loves these shirts as well, is that you can trick people. They look really fancy, so you can take them out to nice dinners, whatever, but they're made from athletic sweat Wicking material. So you can throw this thing into your luggage in a heap or on your kitchen table like I did recently and then pull it out, throw it on with no ironing, no steaming, no nothing, walk out and you could probably wear this thing for a week straight or make it your only dress shirt and take it on trips for weeks at a time. Never wash it. It will not smell. You will not sweat through it. You gotta check these

• 4:39Tim Ferriss?

  things out. So go to fourhourworkweek.com, all spelled out, fourhourworkweek.com/shirts. Check it out, fourhourworkweek.com/shirts and you'll see some of my favorite gear, including the one shirt that I've been traveling with.

• 4:55Tim Ferriss?

  What's up my little munchkins? This is Tim Ferriss. Welcome to another episode of the Tim Ferriss Show. I've been waiting to record this intro and this goddamn garbage truck keeps backing up. So fuck it. We're gonna roll with it and make that part of the ambiance. The Tim Ferriss Show is where I attempt to deconstruct world-class performers, whether they are chess prodigies, hedge fund managers, athletes, artists, comedians, celebrities, actors, you name it, scientists. We dig into everything. And the reason is you find that there are, say, morning routines, there are meditative practices, there are types of nutrition and training that transfer across all of these domains. It's pretty amazing

• 5:35Tim Ferriss?

  that you find a common toolkit for excellence. And in this episode, we have Jimmy Chin. And I remember at one point Jimmy was kind of introduced to me conceptually by someone who said, if Chase Jarvis, the world-class photographer, and Laird Hamilton, arguably the biggest big wave surfer of all time, does he say biggest? The best big wave surfer of all time, had a love child, it would be Jimmy. And I was like, what the hell does that mean? Well, Jimmy is an artist and a professional athlete, often at the same time. As a Nat Geo, National Geographic photographer, he has participated in and documented breakthrough expeditions around the planet from climbing first descents in the Karakoram to skiing first descents in the Himalayas. Put another way, he is one of the few people to both

• 6:20Tim Ferriss?

  climb Everest to the summit and then ski it down from the summit, which is bonkers.

• 6:27Tim Ferriss?

  Recently, he filmed and directed an incredible feature documentary called Meru, M E R U, which is in theaters right now and won the 2015 Audience Award at Sundance. So what is Meru? I'll put this in perspective for folks. In the high stakes game of big wall climbing, the shark's fin on Mount Meru is, I suppose, the ultimate prize. Everest is a cakewalk by comparison. Sitting at the headwaters of the Ganges River in northern India, the shark's fin has seen more failed attempts by elite climbing teams. These are the best of the best over the past 30 years than any other ascent in the Himalayas, or the Himalayas, as they say. And this movie is a story of one group's journey to conquer it.

• 7:09Tim Ferriss?

  And there are many mishaps along the way. And it's a white knuckle quest of friendship, sacrifice, hope, and obsession. How the hell Jimmy captured it on film while simultaneously risking his life is impossible for me to fathom, but we dig into it. So in this episode of the podcast, we talk about his origins, training, nutrition, gear, and tackling Meru, of course, which just really blows my mind, and I don't say that lightly. So suffice to say, if you want a benevolent kick of the ass, go see Meru. That's your assignment. I saw it with my family. And for probably 15 minutes afterwards, all they could say was, whoa, whoa, over and over again. My refrain was, holy shit, under my breath, muttering 20 times every hour.

• 7:55Tim Ferriss?

  Or it's really mind boggling what Jimmy pulls off. It's amazing, terrifying, and awe inspiring and inspiring at the same time. So without further ado, please enjoy my conversation with the incredible Jimmy Chin.

• 8:11Tim Ferriss?

  Jimmy, welcome to the show. Thank you. Nice to be here. It's really been an interview that I've struggled with how to tackle because when I watched, is it Meru or Meru? I don't know how to emphasize the name of this. I say Meru. Meru. So it was basically 90 minutes of saying, oh, my fucking God, oh, my fucking God, oh, my fucking God. So I feel like most of the questions. That I would have formulated during that time might have been hijacked. But we're going to, of course, talk about that and many other things. But when you are asked by people, what do you do? How do you answer that? Because you have been described by a friend of mine as the love child,

• 8:55Tim Ferriss?

  if there were one, of Laird Hamilton and Chase Jarvis, which I thought was hilarious. Since both have been on, both have been on the podcast, both amazing world-class performers in surfing with Laird and many other things, and then photography with Chase. And I don't want the image in my head of them actually doing anything sexual. But how do you answer the question? What do you do? Because you do so much.

• 9:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, sorry, I was picturing something terrifying, actually.

• 9:29Tim Ferriss?

  I feel like Chase would really get the worst end of that.

• 9:33Speaker 01

  Maybe.

• 9:36Speaker 01

  You know, that's a question I get asked often. And it's, you know, it's kind of amazing that I still don't have a very good answer for it. I generally break it down into three pieces. I'm a professional athlete. I am a photographer and I'm a filmmaker. And that's kind of divided by, you know, my sources of income. So I guess that's, that's the best way that I can describe what I do. And an athlete kind of entails everything from corporate speaking to, you know, endorsement of product or a brand ambassador

• 10:18Speaker 01

  or working on RD and D with designers on jackets. You know, so that they kind of spread through a lot of different areas. When I say athlete and then photographer is both commercial and editorial work. And filmmaker is kind of the same, you know, documentary filmmaking and, and commercial work as well.

• 10:40Tim Ferriss?

  Now, for those people who may not be familiar with your work, what, what would the Jimmy Chin highlight reel look like? When you're introduced by a friend at a party who's had a couple of drinks and so is very enthusiastic, when they want, when they want to really catch someone's attention with some of your accomplishments, what are the things that they throw out?

• 10:59Speaker 01

  I'd say.

• 11:02Speaker 01

  Oh, wow. I mean, you mean flattering ones or unflattering?

• 11:07Tim Ferriss?

  That's true. They're like, hey, this is my friend Jimmy. What one of my buddies does is a side note. He's from New Zealand, so he loves doing this to people, but he'll run up to me at parties. When I'm, when I'm talking to someone I want to make a good first impression on, and he'll go, "Hey buddy, how's the syphilis going?" Anyways, oh, sorry to interrupt, and he'll run off. So I'm referring, I'm referring less to that type of shenanigan and more to the flattering stuff when he wants to impress someone.

• 11:30Speaker 01

  I would say, you know, I think it would be, hey, this is Jimmy. He's a National Geographic photographer. He's climbed and skied Everest. And he just recently, you know, won the Audience Award for his film at Sundance. That would probably be the, the quick and dirty.

• 11:52Tim Ferriss?

  The quick, the quick and dirty top three. What is a first ascent and what is a first descent in climbing and skiing respectively? Because you've done both, is that right?

• 12:02Speaker 01

  Yes. I guess to give it some context, those are the descriptions of what professional climbers and skiers or snowboarders do. Cause really, you know, when you're, when you're a professional climber or a professional skier, you are often trying to do firsts, things that have never been done before. And, you know, you make a career of, of trying to do first ascents or first descents. And, and really that's kind of like your legacy too. So for instance, if I show up in a mountain range in the Karakoram in Pakistan,

• 12:40Speaker 01

  and I go to the Trango Towers, which is this beautiful range of big alpine walls in Pakistan. I can look at the mountain and, or the mountains and... I'll see these prominent lines, you know, and you'll either have a guidebook or you'll be with somebody that can point out these lines and say, "That prow on the great trango, first descent by, you know, so and so and so and so, you know, Mark Sinnet and Alex Low," or... And so, it's kind of like your legacy, but it's also your inspiration too, in a lot of ways. And then if you're a skier, you can go up to Alaska and, you know,

• 13:21Speaker 01

  you'll see these big intimidating lines and they're related to somebody. And they'll be like, "Oh, Doug Coombs, you know, one of the great skiers of our generation. He did the first descent." And they're important because they, you know, they represent a person's legacy in a way, but they also inspired somebody. And so much of... And they had to have a vision to do it, because usually each generation, you're trying to push the kind of boundaries of what's possible by doing these certain lines. And of course, they get harder and harder, you know, generation after generation.

• 14:01Tim Ferriss?

  Where am I reaching you right now? Where are you in the world?

• 14:05Speaker 01

  I just got back home in Jackson Hole, Wyoming.

• 14:09Tim Ferriss?

  And you have a very busy, you have a very busy schedule ahead of you. But if you're looking back retrospectively at, I suppose that's redundant, but you get the idea, at your three silos, and they're not really silos because they're so intertwined, the photography, the athletics, the climbing and alpine sport, and then the filmmaking. If you could only be remembered for one of those three, which would you choose and why?

• 14:39Speaker 01

  Oh, boy. That's a tough one. I don't even know if I can answer that because they're so important to me. There's crossovers within the communities, and I'm not trying to totally dodge the question.

• 14:53Tim Ferriss?

  All right.

• 14:54Speaker 01

  But, you know, my peer group, I think of my peer group when you ask me that question. And there are so many people who I respect and appreciate in each kind of category, I guess you could say. And they're all equally important and inspiring to me. So I don't know that I have, I guess that is the answer is that there isn't one that I would prefer to be remembered by, or I'd love to be remembered by all of them.

• 15:27Tim Ferriss?

  If you, well, let me rephrase that. If you had to stop doing one of them, gun against the head, had to choose one, which would it be?

• 15:34Speaker 01

  Oh, you're making this tough.

• 15:36Tim Ferriss?

  Oh, yeah, there's a lot more where that came from.

• 15:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm sure there is. You know, I would probably choose, oh, man. I mean, climbing and skiing have provided so much inspiration for the other two. And the passion for the other two, in a lot of ways, were rooted in being in the wild. And the experiences that I had and have in the mountains and in the ocean surfing. Or, you know, I'm a pretty physical person and, you know, I just find such great joy

• 16:21Speaker 01

  in doing those things. So, okay, I guess I'll say the climbing and the skiing and the surfing, the athletic side, that's what I'd pick.

• 16:32Tim Ferriss?

  Okay, that's what you'd pick to keep?

• 16:34Speaker 01

  That's what I'd pick to keep.

• 16:36Tim Ferriss?

  Now, let's talk about the physical side of things because I know the people listening are very interested in your training regimens and things like that. And we're going to rewind the clock at one point and talk about your upbringing and background a bit. But a mutual friend of ours sent me this paragraph, and I'd love to dig into it a little bit. His training regimen is alien. Example, two-hour car-to-car ski laps on the Grand Teton, question mark, exclamation point, question mark. So I want to come back to that because I'm not sure what that is. He'd be in town having a coffee after a grand lap by mid-morning. Exum Guides, I don't know what that is, but in Jackson Hole, list this as a two-day ascent, and many would consider it the seminal achievement of their

• 17:18Tim Ferriss?

  mountaineering life. It's a standard workout for him. So I want to get to, I want to drill into this exactly. What is a two-hour car-to-car ski lap?

• 17:28Speaker 01

  I think the hours are probably wrong.

• 17:33Speaker 01

  I've never done it in two hours car to car and I don't think anybody has, but I have done certainly a sub ten, maybe, maybe even around six hours. I can't remember what the fastest time. I'm not one of those people that records my time every single time I go up and do something. Like I have a general sense and it's more just for me to gauge, you know, where my fitness is at. But a car to car time, let's say it's six to eight hours, somewhere in there, is basically you start in the valley floor and if you did start at stopwatch, you'd start it when you left the car and then you'd climb up the

• 18:15Speaker 01

  grand and then you'd ski back down it back to the car and then you'd stop the clock. So car to car, you know, I think one of the times that has been kind of recognized was when I was training to ski Everest, I was kind of doing laps on the grand. I would do it a few times a week. And at one point towards the end, when I was really fit, I climbed and skied the grand and then went over and climbed and skied the middle and then went over and climbed and skied the south Teton, you know, back to the car and

• 18:54Speaker 01

  I think it was sub ten hours. So I can't remember exactly, but something like that. And for me to think about it now even, I'm like, wow, that was, that's pretty fast because I don't think I could do that right now, you know. And could I do it again at some point? Maybe. But yeah, that's how I trained because I didn't, you know, I do have to train in the gym now, probably more than I ever had to before. And I don't particularly love it because the whole point for me was that was being in the mountains and I didn't necessarily consider it just training because I got to be in the mountains and I got to

• 19:35Speaker 01

  climb and ski and breathe and push myself and look at the starry sky early in the morning or watch the sunrise. You know, I mean, there's so much beauty in that. And when I'm in a gym.

• 19:51Speaker 01

  Feels a little lacking, but I have to do it now more.

• 19:55Tim Ferriss?

  Is now, is that a, is that a function of age? Or what is the reason that you have to spend more time in the gym?

• 20:01Speaker 01

  I mean, some people who I've seen in their kind of arc, in their kind of like career arc as a, as a professional alpinist or ski mountaineer, they've moved more into the gym because there's less exposure to risks.

• 20:19Tim Ferriss?

  Right.

• 20:19Speaker 01

  And, you know, I mean, it is kind of a statistics game. The more time you're out there, the more risks you're exposed to. It catches up to you. So there is that part for me. That's not necessarily the case. It's more the fact that I'm traveling a ton. I'm married to, you know, my wonderful wife who lives in Manhattan. And you just don't get those like full days where you're like, oh, you know, and, and to get in the mountains, you have to wait for the right conditions too. So if it's storming, you can't just go. You kind of have to wait. And I don't have that luxury. It's like, okay, I have to train.

• 21:02Speaker 01

  I have to have a certain amount of consistency to stay shit in shape.

• 21:06Tim Ferriss?

  What does your week of exercise look like currently? And, and let's, let's separate that from kind of launch time with the new film and so on. And just think about a, a, a non crunch period like that. Although I think you probably have a lot of crunch times.

• 21:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:26Tim Ferriss?

  From the looks of it, but what, what is, assuming that you're in Wyoming, what does a week of training look like for you? And, and, and the more specific, the better, because I, I love it. And I know the people listening would really enjoy it.

• 21:38Speaker 01

  Okay. Well, it's hard for me not to think, and maybe this will be helpful to you. Like I can think about what it used to look like in my mid to late twenties, when I could just go.

• 21:51Speaker 01

  And then also right now, but right now, a week at home, you know, I'll usually set aside two.

• 22:00Speaker 01

  Full days, if I'm at home for seven days, so two of the seven days I'll set aside for full days and one full day, depending on the season, you know, would be to go on, if it's a winter, it's a huge ski tour or, you know, climbing and skiing one of the peaks in the Tetons as like one of my big days. And then, or, or, yeah, I guess in the winter it'd be two of those. It'd be like ski something big in the grand, Teton National Park, and then another big, you know, full day skiing backcountry at the resort or ski touring up on Teton Pass, which is this great backcountry ski area,

• 22:43Speaker 01

  ski accessed area. And then the five days in between, you know, I'd probably be working most of the day and I would just get like one or two laps up on the pass, which is like a approximately 1,500 foot hike and then a ski down. And I would probably do that once or twice if I had a little bit more time in the afternoon. Probably throw in some yoga in there once or twice a week, or just some stretching once or twice a week as well.

• 23:13Tim Ferriss?

  And what type of gym work would you be doing in that week? Or would you not be doing much gym work?

• 23:19Speaker 01

  I probably wouldn't be doing much gym work. It seems like in the summertime, there's probably a chance I would do two days in the gym, which would probably be kind of core stuff. It'd probably be like core and yoga of some sort.

• 23:35Tim Ferriss?

  And when you say core, to get really specific, how long are those workouts? And what's, what might a hypothetical or real sequence of exercises look like for you?

• 23:45Speaker 01

  Probably if I'm lucky and I have somebody that I'm training with that will run me through a workout, there's, you know, sandbag get ups, which is-

• 23:58Tim Ferriss?

  It's like a Turkish get up using a sandbag or different?

• 24:01Speaker 01

  Exactly. It's like a Turkish get up, sandbags.

• 24:05Tim Ferriss?

  Are you doing that with one arm? It's just one of those sandbags with kind of the handles on them?

• 24:10Speaker 01

  Yeah. And you throw it over your shoulder and you basically get up.

• 24:13Tim Ferriss?

  So it's a get up with a sandbag on your shoulder. That sounds miserable.

• 24:18Speaker 01

  Exactly. Not that much fun.

• 24:23Tim Ferriss?

  And how many, what type of kind of rep set scheme are you doing with that?

• 24:27Speaker 01

  It depends. You know, I think I'd probably be doing like 60 pound sandbag and I think it's like five to 10 on each side. And then I would go to do like a series of sit ups or some sort of, you know, leg lifts or something like that, where you're hanging off of something and doing leg lifts. And then planks, essentially, kind of three core workouts back to back and you do like a whole round of them.

• 24:55Tim Ferriss?

  Got it. So you'd be, so you do sort of sandbag, get up, some type of leg lift, plank, and then repeat that sequence?

• 25:04Speaker 01

  Yeah. And in the winter, I might even, if there's like a climbing station where there's just like a wall there to hang off of, I'll do a core workout and then I'll just get on a wall for about four or five minutes at a time, over hanging wall and just kind of work out my arms, just so I have some semblance of my, keep some semblance of my climbing capacity. And, and really, that's one of the hardest things for me because, you know, I'm supposed to be a climber and most of the climbers, like serious professional climbers, they just climb year round. And most of the skiers ski year round. So they go to South America and ski during

• 25:47Speaker 01

  our summers. But, you know, I'm kind of switching back and forth and they're, they're kind of, they don't complement each other that well because skiers get these huge legs and that's like the worst if you're a rock climber is like to have.

• 26:01Tim Ferriss?

  Big meaty thighs.

• 26:03Speaker 01

  Exactly. And obviously really strong forearms and finger strength does nothing for your skiing. So.

• 26:12Tim Ferriss?

  Right.

• 26:13Speaker 01

  That's like a constant kind of battle.

• 26:15Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, it's like being a bench press competitor and a competitive cyclist. Yeah.

• 26:20Speaker 01

  Something like that.

• 26:21Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, well, I mean, not to say you're doing much bench pressing, but the point being that the, yeah, the exercises do not necessarily transfer from one to the other. When, now you have, and this is, this is talked about in Meru, which I enjoyed incredibly. I mean, I recommended it to 500,000 people or so via this newsletter that I send out every Friday called Five Bullet Friday. I found it extremely inspiring, but I want to talk specifically about, it's not really a biathlon, it's kind of like a triathlon, but in an unconventional sense and so much as, so Meru, I guess it's the shark fin, am I getting this right?

• 27:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, the shark's fin.

• 27:03Tim Ferriss?

  The shark's fin requires, it's sort of, it's defeated some of the, the top climbers and alpinists for 20, 30 years because you can't just be good at big wall climbing. And I guess for, for people, and please correct me if I'm wrong, this is just, I'm trying to give people who aren't familiar with this stuff, some context, like big wall, you could think of, say, El Capitan or some of these sheer surfaces in Yosemite as a, as a big wall, you can't just be a good big wall climber, you can't just be a good ice climber, you can't just be good at any one of these disciplines, you have to be world class at all of them. And what I'd love to ask you is, for instance, in the case of rock climbing, and when, when

• 27:47Tim Ferriss?

  people think of, say, an indoor gym or just climbing outside, bouldering or doing top roping or whatever, or, or lead climbing, if they're, if they're more advanced, what are some common novice wastes of time where they spend, or, or mistakes? And I'm just going to kind of hit each of these disciplines for people who are eager to practice this stuff, right? So let's just, if we look at rock climbing first and your own development and looking back and knowing all the people you know, what, what should novices do more of and less of?

• 28:18Speaker 01

  I'd say in terms of technique, the classic.

• 28:23Speaker 01

  Mistake that climbers make when they first start is that they think it's all about having these big arms and upper body strength. And it's really actually about the footwork and balance and keeping your weight over your feet. And so it's the classic scenario where you have like the big burly guy who's about to start climbing and then like the petite, you know, woman that, you know, is a little bit intimidating, intimidated and, and taking like, you know, just, there's a different attitude towards it, you know?

• 29:03Speaker 01

  And then the guy gets up there and is trying to muscle through this climb and use like his big burly shoulders that he's been lifting, you know, building in the gym and he can't get 20 feet off the ground. And then, you know, the small petite woman who maybe did ballet or gymnastics gets up there and floats up the thing. And then the guy is totally destroyed, right? On multiple levels.

• 29:28Tim Ferriss?

  Right.

• 29:29Speaker 01

  You see that all the time because the woman is, is A, being smart and she isn't leaning towards muscle. It's more about, you know, how she stands on her feet and, and is, you know, just being much more thoughtful about how to do, how to climb this thing. And so I don't know if that necessarily answers your question.

• 29:56Tim Ferriss?

  No, it's helpful. I mean, I've, I've, I've watched women in the gym and they're consistently, I mean, the higher level climbers better at keeping their arms straight and keeping their bodies over their feet or at least using their feet to their advantage. What, if you were training someone in rock climbing, how would you have them practice for the first, say, two weeks? Would it be on the bouldering wall? Would they be doing top roping? Would they be incorporating other things like slack lining? I mean, if you really wanted to lay a very, very good foundation, what would you focus on in those first two weeks?

• 30:30Speaker 01

  I would probably get them on the bouldering wall, just to get familiar with, you know, moving around and not being so caught up in like the rope work and all of those things.

• 30:44Speaker 01

  And just getting that body movement, that muscle memory for kind of just moving around on a vertical surface. And then, you know, then the top roping, I would, you know, bring that in, getting them confident with tying the knots so that they understand the systems. Because so much of the fear that comes in climbing is often perceived and a lot of, you know, what you do as a climber is you're managing fear. And I think that, you know, I often talk about managing fear by recognizing the difference between perceived risks and real risks. So when you teach somebody about these systems and they understand it and they're like, oh, this is a safety system and this is how it works, you can help alleviate

• 31:26Speaker 01

  some of the fear of the climbing and that, you know, the height. So then I would just take them, you know, top roping and get them familiar with, with climbing a bit higher and using that kind of technique that they've been learning on the bouldering wall as well.

• 31:46Tim Ferriss?

  Let's talk about gear for a second because I know people have asked me to ask you, what type of, when you're in the gym or just not doing cold weather stuff, when you're just working on climbing, what type of shoes do you wear?

• 32:01Speaker 01

  For normal rock climbing?

• 32:03Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 32:04Speaker 01

  I guess it would just be climbing shoes, you know, what brand?

• 32:08Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 32:09Speaker 01

  I normally climb in 510. They're known for having the best kind of sticky rubber.

• 32:14Tim Ferriss?

  Any particular model?

• 32:16Speaker 01

  I've climbed a lot in the Anasazi's for more like everyday climbing.

• 32:21Tim Ferriss?

  And for backcountry skiing and ski touring, what type of gear do you use?

• 32:25Speaker 01

  I use Dinafit boots and the Dinafit bindings and then skis over the last few years, usually on Armada skis or Black Diamond skis.

• 32:40Tim Ferriss?

  When you're doing downhill, I would imagine the gear changes quite a bit, but I don't know, I'm not outside of my area of expertise.

• 32:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's funny because I just, you know, I wear, I use a lot of different brands based on like what boot they have. So I've skied Lang boots and Armada skis.

• 33:00Speaker 01

  For many years, that's kind of like my on resort kind of setup. And then that's the main.

• 33:09Tim Ferriss?

  That's the go to?

• 33:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:10Tim Ferriss?

  And when you're doing this training and going, doing laps, right, of various types, and you're out there for five to 10 hours, are you, what does your nutrition look like? If anything, I mean, what are you bringing with you in terms of water and food?

• 33:27Speaker 01

  On bigger days in the mountains, this is non expedition, but let's say I'm going up to climbing ski the grand, or I'm doing a long run across the Tetons or something in the summer. It's usually, you know, I have Cliffshots, Cliffblocks. I also use a lot of Hammer Nutrition stuff that I think triathletes and endurance athletes use. So there's Head, which is a great carbohydrate drink that, you know, isn't overflavored and pretty easy to use. And then I like to have real food as well. So it's usually like a ham sandwich or PB and J

• 34:11Speaker 01

  or a couple of them. I also take Endurolytes, which is basically an electrolyte pill that Hammer Nutrition makes. I bring a lot of lifesaver mints.

• 34:23Tim Ferriss?

  Lifesaver mints? Why lifesavers?

• 34:25Speaker 01

  Yeah. I don't know. I mean, they're nice. They're like a little nicety to have when you're on a long run or big day out. I have a terrible sweet tooth, so it kind of helps us out.

• 34:41Tim Ferriss?

  So do you bring lifesavers on your bigger expeditions as well? Like on Merida, did you have a stash of lifesavers?

• 34:47Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 34:50Tim Ferriss?

  And I noticed, of course, and a lot of people have noticed, you have earbuds in a lot when you're climbing or I would imagine exercising. Well, let's just, when you're on these, these bigger expeditions, what are you listening to? And actually, Justin Beretta of the Glitch Mob wanted to ask this specifically. He was, he's been, yeah, he's been on the pod, he's been on the podcast before. And so he wanted to know, like, what do you listen to? How do you use music when climbing, et cetera? So I'd love to just hear, what, what is in your ears?

• 35:26Speaker 01

  Well, a couple of things. I don't usually climb like when I'm actually leading or if I'm belaying, I'm not listening to like an ear pod. But on expeditions, I definitely on the treks in, you know, where it's four or five days of trekking, I'll, I'll be listening to music. And yeah, certainly sometimes when I'm bouldering or, or touring like up into the mountains to, to ski something, I'll have them in. But when I'm actually like, when it gets real, like there's real climbing or real skiing happening, I, I definitely am not listening to music at that point.

• 36:02Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah. When you're trekking in, what's, uh, what are some favorites?

• 36:06Speaker 01

  It's funny that Beretta, who's amazing, and I love the Glitch Mob. I mean, we definitely listened to the Glitch Mob on Meru. And despite like the weight limitations that we put on ourselves, we brought this teeny little nano and a little micro speaker with like solar speaker. And we had Glitch Mob on there.

• 36:29Tim Ferriss?

  That's awesome.

• 36:30Speaker 01

  I've been a huge fan of them for a long time. And we had everything from, you know, classic reggae, Jose Gonzalez, Eddie Vedder, and the classics too, you know, like Led Zeppelin, Neil Young. And then, I don't know, it's, it's, it's really across the board. I'll listen to Bach. Um, yeah, on these long trips, I usually have pretty good mix of music. But Glitch Mob and Jose Gonzalez were definitely playing a lot on, on our Meru expedition.

• 37:07Tim Ferriss?

  When you look back at all of your experiences, and I'm sure you get approached by many, wannabe sounds bad, but aspiring. Mountaineers, and I apologize that I'm not sure if mountaineer is interchangeable with alpine climber or alpinist, I don't know the vocab, but for people who look at your life outdoors and envy that and want to spend more time outside and want a goal of some type, let's just assume that they are mid 30s, used to be pretty athletic, maybe competed as an athlete, spend a lot of time sitting down, but want to reverse that and need a goal of some type, what would be some decent sort of goals to put

• 37:50Tim Ferriss?

  in the calendar in terms of certain ascents or summits or anything like that? Let's assume that they're, they don't have any, any real technical training to speak of at this point.

• 37:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think there's a couple avenues to come into it. I think Knowles is a good way to come into it. The National Outdoor Leadership School, based out of Land O'Quinn, Wyoming, they have, I think they have a few adult classes. Another great way to come into it, of course, to, if you're a professional and, and you want more one-on-one kind of instruction, I think the best way to do that is to come into it by hiring a guide. And, you know, I think a great mini expedition for someone or a goal would be to climb the Grand tee time, because you come into it, you learn the basics of rope work, you learn,

• 38:42Speaker 01

  you know, how to belay, and you go climbing for a couple of days down low, so you're comfortable with the rock climbing and the systems. And then you get to go up on the Grand, where it's a bit more alpine and higher altitude, and then you get to climb a mountain. And, you know, a lot of people, like a typical good client who's getting a lot out of the experience, will have that climb under their belt, and then, you know, the next year they'll call their guide, if, if they got along with them really well and, and had a good time, and say, hey, let's do something else, you know, and that guide will probably come up with another really cool idea, and maybe that's climbing some,

• 39:25Speaker 01

  a harder route on the Grand, or go into the winds, the Wind River Range. Or, you know, there's these ways to kind of continue to to progress as a climber. But then you also have like the safety of this like very knowledgeable guide.

• 39:42Tim Ferriss?

  How do you, how would one go about finding a good guide? Are there certain websites or resources that you'd recommend?

• 39:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, I think you can go in Jackson for climbing the grand. There's two outfits. One is Exum Mountain Guides and the other one is Jackson Hole Mountain Guides. And, you know, all of their guides have gone through courses and then definitely been in the mountains a lot. And so you can, they'll assign one. And now most of the guys I know are great. And so that's one way to to go into it. You can also do this kind of thing in Yosemite or in the Sierras as well, you know? And that's, that's another place to go.

• 40:25Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, I saw a great documentary called Valley Uprising about the last, whatever it is, 50 years in Yosemite big wall climbing. And it kind of traces everything from the very early days all the way up to Alex Honnold, right? Is that how you say his last name?

• 40:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:42Tim Ferriss?

  And, and, and, and a number of mutants like that. The question that I wanted to tackle next is going way, way back. Where did you, where were you born and raised?

• 40:53Speaker 01

  So I was born and raised in Minnesota, Mankato, Minnesota, which is basically this small farm town with a small university in it.

• 41:03Tim Ferriss?

  And had your parents been there, had, had your parents been there for multiple generations?

• 41:07Speaker 01

  No, no, my parents were both from China and my mother was from Harbin.

• 41:15Tim Ferriss?

  I was, I was just going to say they had to be from some cold ass place like Harbin to go to Minnesota.

• 41:22Speaker 01

  Well, my mom was, you know, and she came from like this really progressive family. My, my grandfather was like trained in Western medicine and a doctor. And my grandmother was like, she spoke multiple languages. She was pretty progressive for her time. She was apparently an actress in Japanese cinema. I don't know how that worked out.

• 41:43Tim Ferriss?

  That's out there.

• 41:44Speaker 01

  That's, yeah, and. So she came from that that kind of a world. And then my father was from the south in Windsor and he was from like a really traditional conservative military family. And it's very unlikely that those two would have met in China. But, you know, in that era, both of them left, both of their families left China during the Communist Revolution, ended up in Taiwan. And then they both went to the United States for university and met in the States. They apparently just, you know, they moved to Chicago after they got married, didn't like the city and heard that Minnesota was apparently a good

• 42:28Speaker 01

  place to raise a family. So they moved to Minnesota and worked at the university in Mankato. And that's where I was born.

• 42:36Tim Ferriss?

  But both of them worked at the university?

• 42:38Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 42:39Tim Ferriss?

  What did they do there?

• 42:40Speaker 01

  They're both librarians.

• 42:42Tim Ferriss?

  That's fascinating. And what what were some defining moments in your childhood? Like, when you think back to how you were raised and growing up in that environment, what would you if you had to pick a defining moment in your childhood, what would what would one be?

• 43:00Speaker 01

  Well, I grew up, yeah, this is there. They were very kind of stereotypical Chinese parents. They were very focused on academics and kind of these extracurricular activities. So I started playing the violin when I was three and a half. And, you know, that and then I swam. Yes, I swam competitively from when I was like, seven through high school. And then I studied martial arts from as long as I can remember from my dad. So my mom was kind of like pushing the violin side. My dad was pushing the martial arts side and they both kind of agreed on the swimming part. But my life was consumed by these things

• 43:45Speaker 01

  because I was basically either practicing the violin, going to swim practice, or going to the dojo, you know, and competing every weekend, played in the, you know, youth orchestra and. And I was studying a lot. And so I was pushed pretty hard, but I was also really motivated. You know, I wanted to do well in these things, but they were a bit confining in a way. And so when I found skiing, there's a little ski hill behind my house. That was my reward if I did well in everything else. And I still remember I skied in jeans and a jean jacket and froze my ass off. On this little bum.

• 44:28Tim Ferriss?

  It's like the Andre Agassi of Asian kids in Minnesota.

• 44:34Speaker 01

  Yeah. Which I was like the only one, by the way. Men K that there were not that many Asian kids.

• 44:43Tim Ferriss?

  Uh, how would you now you have uh your own, your own small child now, am I right?

• 44:49Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 44:49Tim Ferriss?

  What are you going to do differently, if anything, in raising uh your child compared to your parents? And it's not meant as a criticism of your parents. I'm just curious what you'll, what you'll definitely borrow and what you think you'll do differently.

• 45:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, I've been thinking about that a lot. You know, I really had to go against the grain. My parents were not into the fact that I finished college and decided I was gonna go. I basically told my parents, I said, hey, look, I I discovered climbing as well and in late in high school. And I was obsessed and I told them, hey, I'm gonna take a year off after college. Instead of looking for this, you know, this new career I was supposed to go on. Cause I mean, they, they really were, your three options are lawyer, doctor, executive, you know?

• 45:45Speaker 01

  And so when I told them that I was gonna like live out of my car for a year. And I, the way I framed it was like, I just gotta get it out of my system and then I will

• 45:58Tim Ferriss?

  happily.

• 46:00Speaker 01

  My power career somewhere. Well, one year turned into two, two turned into three. I lived out of the back of a little blue Subaru for seven years till I was 28. Climbing and skiing and doing odd jobs like.

• 46:18Speaker 01

  Shoveling roofs in mansions in Jackson, you know, we'd have to do rope work and like, yeah, I did random stuff to to make it work. And so they were very, well, they were mortified.

• 46:35Speaker 01

  My my mom would say, well, of course, we're worried. There's no word in Chinese for what you do, you know, like, how, what are you doing? And I couldn't imagine a different life because I just, it was so powerful for me to to do that. And it was tough, you know, I had a lot of doubt about it. But it didn't help, obviously, that, you know, every time I called them, they were like, what are you doing? You know?

• 47:08Speaker 01

  But so what I took away from that, though, is that the foundation that they set for me in that sort of discipline, and even though it wasn't like I found the martial arts, I did eventually really love it. Swimming, it was just, I did love that physical aspect of like, competition too, and just like pushing as hard as you can, like improving incrementally and understanding what it takes to kind of progress. I think playing the violin was incredibly, you know, I'm so thankful that, you know, I picked up the guitar in college, it was really

• 47:48Speaker 01

  easy to pick up. And music has been a big part of my life. And so those aspects of my upbringing, while at points in my youth, I hated them, but there's so much appreciation for it. They also, you know, raised me to speak bilingual. They would ignore me if I didn't speak to them in Chinese, because they knew I was going to learn English, but at home, it was only Chinese. And, you know, so I got to grow up with another language. And when I was younger, I was like, my parents are crazy. Nobody else makes their kids do this stuff. But I really appreciated it. So. I don't think I'll necessarily dictate, you know, you have to do this and this and this.

• 48:31Speaker 01

  I'm certainly gonna share the things that I love with my daughter Marina. And if she, you know, enjoys them or becomes passionate. And that could be photography too, you know. I'm gonna share those things with her. And I, I think I'll have the capacity to recognize whether or not she, you know, finds one of them really appealing. And in a lot of ways, it's also selfish because I wanna be able to ski with my daughter and surf with my daughter. But I want her to find something that she's passionate about. And I've told myself this, and I don't know whether or not I'll be able to execute on

• 49:16Speaker 01

  it, but, you know, you know, to wrap my head around like, it could be something totally different than what you expect. And you're gonna have to embrace it and, and give her all those opportunities that she needs to, to pursue whatever that thing is. And maybe it's knitting, who knows, you know?

• 49:39Tim Ferriss?

  And, I mean, it's, uh, my, my mother and my mom and dad did that, um, with me quite a lot. I mean, they didn't have the, the same focus on music, although I took music lessons. I was a chronic quitter with music, but, uh, did expose me to a lot. Uh, we didn't have a lot of money, but was constantly exposed to things outside, to different types of activities. And then, uh, they put whatever muscle they could behind helping me and my brother to explore those things. And I'm really grateful for that. And I had a number of mentors, uh, but this isn't about me. I wanna ask you about your mentors, and I, I only know about a few of them. Now Conrad Anker.

• 50:24Tim Ferriss?

  Is in the film. And if you're listening to this, you have to go see Mero. It's time extremely well spent and it's a beautiful film and a terrifying film. And it points a hilarious film, but I wanted to talk about and ask you about someone I'm less familiar with because we've mentioned photography, but haven't really touched on your start and I'm not familiar with it. So I was hoping you could maybe tell the story of meeting, is it Galen Rowell? Is that how you pronounce his name?

• 50:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's Galen Rowell.

• 50:58Tim Ferriss?

  Rowell, there we go. And could you explain how you became exposed to photography? And then how you met Galen?

• 51:08Speaker 01

  Well, I began, so I never studied photography. I didn't take any classes in photography. I actually had a friend who wanted to be a photographer, showed me how to use his camera and take a, while we were on a climb in Yosemite and I took a photo with it and, and he was trying to sell his photos. It was slides at the time and he sold it for, sold one photo and it happened to be mine for $500. And, and he still says, I started Jimmy's career, which is true. And he went on to do great things in his field as well. But I, it was

• 51:50Speaker 01

  so funny because in a way I'm embarrassed to say it, like I didn't come at photography from this inspiration of creativity and, and art, you know, I came at it from being like, oh, you know, I live out of the car, my car, $500, I can live for basically two months. You know, I'm like, man, I only have to take one photo a month and I can do this for the rest of my life, you know? That was like my 20 year old self thinking. Obviously my, I've evolved from there, but you know, I, so I picked up photography then and I was

• 52:29Speaker 01

  very fortunate to start shooting right away for commercial clients, just because I was surrounded, my peer group where all these. Climbers like Dean Potter and Steph Davis and Timmy O'Neill and Cedar Wright.

• 52:45Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, amazing.

• 52:45Speaker 01

  They all became, you know, famous climbers and I started shooting for Patagonia and the North Face right away because they wanted someone they didn't have to worry about when they were up climbing and I could climb and I would shoot with them. But Galen came into my life when I started looking at a lot of different photography and he embodied like this form of adventure photography that was very participatory. Where he was shooting from like the inside out as opposed to from the outside in.

• 53:22Tim Ferriss?

  What do you mean by that?

• 53:23Speaker 01

  Where he's part of the team and climbing and he was a very talented and visionary climber. I mean, he has first ascents all over the world.

• 53:33Tim Ferriss?

  Got it, got it.

• 53:34Speaker 01

  And.

• 53:35Tim Ferriss?

  He was up here with his subject matter.

• 53:38Speaker 01

  Exactly. And, you know, I related to that and at one point, you know, I saw these photos of Conrad and this other climber, Peter Kraft, in Pakistan in this unbelievable valley. And I was like, okay, that is the end game. Like if I'm gonna commit to being a climber and I'm gonna be in Yosemite, climbing Al Cap wasn't the end game. That was like where you cut your teeth. You took what you learned in Yosemite and you go to a place like this place, you know, in this picture, the high altitude, big walls of Pakistan.

• 54:17Speaker 01

  And so I'm like 24 maybe and 23 maybe and I decide, okay, well, the one guy who's gonna know how to get there is this guy Galen. And so I drove from Wyoming to Berkeley where his gallery was and I showed up at his office.

• 54:36Tim Ferriss?

  Berkeley, California.

• 54:38Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I walk in the office, you know, and I'm like, the receptionist is there and she's like, can I help you? And I'm like, yeah, I'm here to see Galen. And she's like, and you are? And I'm like, well, I'm Jimmy Chin. She's like, uh, okay. Um, and she goes upstairs. She comes back. She's like, you know, he just came back from this huge shoot. There's all these photo editors there. He doesn't have time to see you today. So I was like, wow, that's cool. Do you mind if I hang out? And look around a bit. She's like, that's fine. So I sit in the lobby that day, the rest of the afternoon, kind of like moping around, looking at pictures.

• 55:21Speaker 01

  And the place closes and I leave and I come back the next day. And same thing. They're like, oh, it's you again. I'm like, yeah, is he around? And they're like, mm, not really.

• 55:35Speaker 01

  So basically I do the same thing on Tuesday. Do the same thing on Wednesday. Do the same thing on Thursday. And by then they're kind of like, dude, what's your deal? And one of the guys there, a little bit younger was like, man, what are you doing? And I'm like, I just want to meet, meet him. I have a, I just need 10 minutes of his time. And he was, you know, they're like, well, maybe come back tomorrow. So I show up on Friday, same thing. And at four o'clock on Friday afternoon, Galen comes down. And he just looks at me. He's like, so you must be Jimmy. And I said, yep. And he was like, okay. Well, you have my undivided attention for the next two hours.

• 56:21Speaker 01

  What can I help you with? And I was floored.

• 56:25Tim Ferriss?

  Two hours? That's legit.

• 56:27Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, that and I was like, oh my God, it's Galen, you know?

• 56:31Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, sure.

• 56:33Speaker 01

  So then I get up there and I'm like, kind of embarrassed. And he, I was like, look, I want to go to this valley. And so he pulled down two slide trays and started showing me pictures and I, I needed an objective. And because I was trying to write grant proposals and I didn't even know where I was going. And he was like, well, here you go. And he literally pulled the slide out of the tray and was like, this is your objective. And it was these two huge towers that had been unclimbed. And that's, that's not something you give up normally, you know.

• 57:09Tim Ferriss?

  You mean, you mean, you mean information wise?

• 57:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, not, not, not something, you know, if you're a long time climber, you kind of keep those close to your chest. There's not that many of them out there, you know?

• 57:19Tim Ferriss?

  Right.

• 57:20Speaker 01

  Um, so he gave those to me, gave that slide to me, put me in contact, gave me the contact for his fixer on the ground there, Azir Sabir, very influential, first Pakistani to climb Everest. Um, and then we walked around, he said, the second hour, he, we walked around, he had the Chinese prints and we, I got to walk around these tables with this most iconic prints and he got, he told me the stories about the prints. And, I mean, I was floored. I was almost speechless at this point. And then he sent me out the door and said, good luck. And you know what? You got to promise me that you, you will take a camera. And that was sent,

• 58:03Speaker 01

  and I had just taken that photo that had sold as well. Um, so I bought a, you know, I bought a camera and put my, put an expedition together to that valley. And that was the first expedition that I went on. And then, fast forward, I think it was four years, and I went on my first National Geographic expedition with Galen to Tibet and got to watch him work, you know, day in and day out for two, two months. You know, I mean, it was hugely influential on multiple levels.

• 58:38Tim Ferriss?

  What were some of the things that you learned from him? Whether those are, you know, principles, techniques, sort of philosophies, sayings, anything?

• 58:45Speaker 01

  Probably the most important thing was just how hard he worked. I mean, he was always up before sunrise to, to make sure that he was in position to get the best light. And he- And he ran and he moved so much. And when you're on those kinds of expeditions, I mean, we're crossing the Changtang Plateau unsupported, um, you know, average elevation seventeen thousand feet and

• 59:12Tim Ferriss?

  When you say unsupported, what do you mean by that?

• 59:14Speaker 01

  Uh, there was no, we were carrying everything on our back.

• 59:17Tim Ferriss?

  Okay, no, no Sherpas.

• 59:19Speaker 01

  No, and there are no cars. Yeah, no, no people to bring something to you if you needed it. I mean, we're in the, one of the most remote high deserts in the world. And those trips are all about efficiencies. You, you, you never do anything unnecessary because you know that you need every single ounce of energy to accomplish the goal. And yet here he was, running up to this, you have to understand, he's sixty-two when I went on this trip with him. And I was twenty-eight, you know, and he was climbing up these ridges up to the side and shooting back down to get this perspective and then going back down to his

• 1:00:03Speaker 01

  stuff. And he'd be way behind and then he'd have to catch up, you know, and then he would get ahead and shoot, shoot back and like, just to see what it took.

• 1:00:17Speaker 01

  And how committed he was and just how he lived through the lens. It just show, you know, sometimes mentors don't have to say anything.

• 1:00:28Tim Ferriss?

  Definitely.

• 1:00:29Speaker 01

  It's just, you spend time with them and that is the greatest gift you can have. And,

• 1:00:38Speaker 01

  and sometimes it's just acknowledging that you're doing something right. It's not saying like you, you have to do it this way or that way. Sometimes you do, but you know, what I've learned so much from my mentors is like, that was so meaningful to me is like, I'd take an initiative and they would kind of give you the nod like you're doing the right thing. And that was a powerful lesson in terms of what it is to be a mentor, you know, because that was so powerful for me to see that and say, oh, wow, like I took a stab at something, I took a risk. And they're acknowledging that it was a good risk. And it gives you so much more ownership over it, too, sometimes, you know?

• 1:01:20Tim Ferriss?

  So Conrad, in the film, does this a lot. I mean, he gives the nod to you quite a few times. And I won't give away any, any sort of punchlines or key moments that I think people should just see in the film. But the, there is one moment, and I'd love to, to dig into fear as it relates to this. So there's a moment, and I'm blanking on what it's called. Oh, the House of Cards, is that it?

• 1:01:48Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:01:49Tim Ferriss?

  Holy shit. I mean, can you, can you describe this to me? And then the question, you know, describe it for people, what this House of Cards is. And then, when you feel fear, if you do, I assume it's there, but what, what is your internal dialogue? What do you say to yourself before you tackle something like that? So if you could explain the House of Cards to people and why it's called that?

• 1:02:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:02:16Tim Ferriss?

  I had to really like stop drinking my beverages in the theater, because number one, it was cold by my, like, very limp wristed standards in the theater. But I was also, like, my bladder was, was, I was having sort of sympathy fear just watching this. So what is the House of Cards?

• 1:02:36Speaker 01

  So the House of Cards is one of the pitches, which is, you know, essentially a rope length on a climb, where I had to go up through this section of rock, which were basically these delicately balanced giant granite slabs that, you know, probably each weighed 10,000 pounds apiece. And, and I had to move, climb through them without ever overweighting any portion of my body, or else you'd peel one off and the whole thing would collapse like a House of Cards. And as John so eloquently states in the film,

• 1:03:18Speaker 01

  it would floss the whole team off the mountain. And so it was fairly...

• 1:03:25Speaker 01

  We call it delicate climbing.

• 1:03:29Tim Ferriss?

  That is such an, it's like you in the understatement of my podcasting career words so far. Yeah, delicate climbing, yeah.

• 1:03:38Speaker 01

  Yeah. And so it was my lead and, you know, with so much of the climbing on expeditions like this, you have to really, sometimes you just have to take a really deep breath and believe in yourself that you will make the right decisions and you're going to draw from all your experience. It has to be tempered because it can't be overconfidence. And there's this fierce concentration. Your world becomes so small in those moments. And in a way, also very expansive in the sense that you're so focused on the moment,

• 1:04:19Speaker 01

  so, so focused on the moment. And that's part of, I know your listeners are probably going to think I'm completely insane, but I mean, that is part of the appeal of climbing is like, nothing takes me out of thinking of my emails or, you know, all these random trivialities in life that we usually think are so important, you know, nothing takes me out of that more than, than, than climbing. And there's this kind of fierce concentration. And I, I was on that lead for six, I think it was actually eight hours, but, you know, it, it happened when I finished it and I got to the anchor and I was ready to come back down.

• 1:05:02Speaker 01

  It felt probably more like 45 minutes, you know? And it just, you, you have to have that belief that, you know, you can do it. And you, you really draw deep into your experiences. And I've been in those situations before too, where it was, in a way, you, you, you train yourself to function in very high stakes, high consequence situations. And so you draw from that place.

• 1:05:32Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, I would imagine it's a process of fear inoculation and exposing yourself to that in a progression of difficulty, right? Like you said, people take their experience on El Cap and then translate that into the bigger game, which is in Pakistan or wherever they might be. Talking about objectives, you said, "I needed an objective," right? In your conversation with Galen. So I sent a text to your wife, who's an old friend, and we were going back and forth about various things, catching up with life.

• 1:06:09Tim Ferriss?

  And then I was talking about the film, and I put, "Jimmy is a beast, capital letters, period. Good Lord, a real man in a world of, quote, 'guys,' end quote, refreshing to see." Now, I'm not hitting on you, although it probably seems like I'm hitting on you. But I do think that there's a malaise among many males in, say, their 20s and 30s who are spending a lot of time sitting down in front of computer screens. And they just don't feel as manually literate or physically capable as their forefathers. And I do think that causes a lot of problems.

• 1:06:54Tim Ferriss?

  So what would, speaking of some objectives, what are some skills that you think every man should have, or things that every man should have done?

• 1:07:07Speaker 01

  Well, first of all, I'd like to probably address the fact that I personally feel doubt and inadequacies all the time. I think people, after being on tour with this film, people are like, "Wow, you must not feel fear, you must not have any doubt." And I don't necessarily want to project that image, because I think that I'm fearful all the time. Among my peer group, I'm always like, "Oh, my God, I'm such a wimp. These guys, this guy's doing this, and this guy's doing that." And I'm like, "Gosh, I don't know if I could do that."

• 1:07:52Speaker 01

  And I just want to put it out there that that's okay and that's normal and that's and I'm okay with that. But in terms of skills, like, I mean, if you're out there and, you know, I can't speak to all the different things out there. I mean,

• 1:08:08Tim Ferriss?

  No, but let's just say you've had, let's, let's pretend, because no one's listening. It's just the two of us. We've had three glasses of wine each.

• 1:08:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:08:18Tim Ferriss?

  And then I ask you this question.

• 1:08:20Speaker 01

  Okay. So, that's a good way to put it. Well, if you don't do this, then you're a total candy ass.

• 1:08:28Tim Ferriss?

  Right.

• 1:08:30Speaker 01

  Well, there's some skills I wish I had, you know, that I think would be good. But mountain climbing is a great objective because there's so much around it. There's like the organization, there's like the vision, there's like the camaraderie when you get your friend to go up there with you. There's learning, technical skills, there's opportunities to learn about yourself and push yourself. It's physical, it's cerebral. So, you know, that might be unfair coming from a mountain climber, but that, I think mountain climbing can do a lot for you. And, and you get to be in, outside, in, in these beautiful landscapes,

• 1:09:15Speaker 01

  which is a huge part of the inspiration for me. I'd say, writing well has been extremely important. Not that I'm a great writer, but I think it's an incredible skill set that you need in whatever aspect of life you have.

• 1:09:31Tim Ferriss?

  What has helped you improve your writing the most? Whether lessons, or teachers, or books, or practices, or anything?

• 1:09:38Speaker 01

  For me, it was probably, early on, was reading a lot. And then, finding, you know, favorite writers and examining why I liked their writing. And I know, it's so cliche, but I mean, I freaking, I loved Hemingway, you know?

• 1:09:56Tim Ferriss?

  Hemingway's great.

• 1:09:57Speaker 01

  Yeah. And, in the same, in the same way, that's, that's really how I developed my photography. I didn't have anybody teaching me it, but I, I looked at a ton of photography, and I

• 1:10:10Speaker 01

  Started to break down why I liked certain photographers. And then, you know, there are certain photographers that helped shaped, you know, how I looked at my shooting. So, you know, it's, it's like studying other, other, other great people in the field has always been a great way for me to learn.

• 1:10:32Tim Ferriss?

  Who are some of your other favorite authors?

• 1:10:35Speaker 01

  Oh, man, that there's.

• 1:10:37Tim Ferriss?

  I'll throw out one just to, just to buy you some time. I don't know if you've ever read coming, I think it's Coming Into The Country by John McPhee, M C P H E E, about his, his travels in Alaska. I think it won the Pulitzer, but just incredible writing as it relates to his outdoor expeditions.

• 1:10:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, I've definitely read McPhee. Jonathan Franzen recently, you know, John Krakauer is a friend of mine, but I've always been like amazed at like how he approaches his work. Did I say John Krakauer or did I just say John?

• 1:11:11Tim Ferriss?

  No, you said, you should, you should Krakauer.

• 1:11:15Speaker 01

  Okay. So let me think, who else have I read recently? I think I ju- I just finished John Krakauer's book, Mizzoula. And I was just really impressed with how he basically, in a way, changed how he wrote to address the subject in a, in the most powerful way that he could. And being able to morph that way is, is really, um, was really impressive to me.

• 1:11:42Tim Ferriss?

  When you, I mean, you guys obviously know one another. You've met a lot of successful people, but when, when you think of the word successful, who is the first person who comes to mind and why?

• 1:11:52Speaker 01

  You know, who I've really been just endlessly impressed with is Yvonne Chouard.

• 1:12:00Tim Ferriss?

  Patagonia, yeah.

• 1:12:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, obviously, he's known for founding Patagonia, but it's it's like he he's he's like hacked the system somehow, you know, I mean, he's known for for founding Patagonia, but he also is, I mean, he's really, you know, he started 1% for the planet and he started, you know, Patagonia Land Trust and he found a way to, you know, have a successful commercial endeavor, understanding that there's necessary evils, that people are still gonna buy stuff, you still have to make clothing because people have to wear clothing, but yet, you know, his approach is like, we're gonna make things that are best thing possible and we're gonna

• 1:12:45Speaker 01

  do it as ecologically sustainable as we can, you know, and he's also led this incredible life of adventure and, you know, he's inspired me in so many different levels and I've been really fortunate to have spent some time with him.

• 1:13:02Tim Ferriss?

  He's a he's a sharp guy, he's a sharp dude and his, I remember his book, Let My People Go Surfing, I think is the name of it.

• 1:13:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:13:10Tim Ferriss?

  Had a really big impact on me when I first read it, so I want to say about 10 years ago, it's actually, I keep it in my closet, sort of, so that I see it every morning when I get dressed, it's sort of on the on the top shelf next to a few other books. What is the book that you've given most as a gift?

• 1:13:27Speaker 01

  There's probably two, one is Musashi.

• 1:13:30Tim Ferriss?

  Oh, fantastic.

• 1:13:31Speaker 01

  Yep, love that book and the other one is probably the, this book called The Guide to the I Ching by Carol Anthony, which was given to me as a freshman by one of my comparative religion teachers and I've pretty much traveled with that thing since, I've had a copy with me somewhere and it's just an interesting take on, an interesting perspective.

• 1:13:57Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, the I Ching is, I Ching, it's, I mean, it's like a Rorschach test in a way, right, or a mirror, or both.

• 1:14:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:14:04Tim Ferriss?

  It's, I took an entire class in college on the I Ching and the interpretation and use of the I Ching in the historical context, very

• 1:14:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:14:14Tim Ferriss?

  Very fascinating and I kind of put it aside for a very long time and now it's very timely that you bring it up, I should I should go order this because I'm getting back into Examining sort of how to draw value out of that. The author is Carol Anthony.

• 1:14:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, and it's funny because I don't consult. You call it consulting the iching very often these days. I almost carry it because I, if I see it, I've looked at it so often, so many times over the years that like I just look at it and I'm like, okay, I kind of know what the answer is for this dilemma I'm having, you know?

• 1:14:58Tim Ferriss?

  That's awesome. That's super cool.

• 1:14:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:15:00Tim Ferriss?

  I'd love to talk about your morning rituals. On your ideal morning, what is the first, you know, like 60 to 90 minutes of your day look like? When do you wake up? What are your morning, what morning rituals are important to you, et cetera?

• 1:15:16Speaker 01

  Besides getting up and looking at my Instagram?

• 1:15:21Speaker 01

  Oh, my God, did I say that out loud? Can you erase that? Just kidding.

• 1:15:26Tim Ferriss?

  What time do you wake up?

• 1:15:28Speaker 01

  I usually wake up around seven.

• 1:15:34Speaker 01

  Seven, eight, eight thirty if I've kind of gone out late or stayed up late. I work late and it's a terrible habit. Like I, I'm usually hammering emails until I fall asleep, which is awful. I've been trying to train myself to, to just read, which works every so often. But in the morning, in an ideal morning, I would get up and the first thing, you know, one of the first things I would do would be to sit down and try to meditate

• 1:16:07Speaker 01

  and, and maintain that practice. I'm not great, but it's always been beneficial when I've had some consistency in doing it.

• 1:16:15Tim Ferriss?

  What type of meditation?

• 1:16:16Speaker 01

  Twenty minutes.

• 1:16:17Tim Ferriss?

  Okay, it sounds like transcendental meditation or no?

• 1:16:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, kind of a form of it and.

• 1:16:25Speaker 01

  You know, I've, I've kind of looked at and played with different forms of meditation, but that, that one, that, that form is uh, kind of the type that I've been doing lately.

• 1:16:42Speaker 01

  But I reach, I, I usually, it's, I don't even want to say that it is TM because it's more, it's like a conglomeration of different things that I've learned and, and thought about.

• 1:16:59Speaker 01

  And then uh, it's breakfast, which is usually toast and jam or, or granola and bananas and yogurt, something like that, or smoothie.

• 1:17:13Speaker 01

  And uh, then I just open up my laptop, it's so boring. And I start looking at emails and trying to be, and saying to myself, oh my gosh, I gotta like hammer these out because what I'm trying to do is get as much done as I possibly can in the first few hours of the morning because my head is clear, so that I can go run outside and do something in the afternoon.

• 1:17:37Tim Ferriss?

  Got it. So is, is the morning then, that is when you're mentally sharpest and you want to then

• 1:17:43Speaker 01

  Fashionably.

• 1:17:43Tim Ferriss?

  Just knock stuff out before lunch that you can get outside and run around and do whatever activity you want to partake in.

• 1:17:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:17:53Tim Ferriss?

  Do you, uh, do you drink?

• 1:17:56Speaker 01

  No, not very much.

• 1:17:57Tim Ferriss?

  Not very much.

• 1:17:58Speaker 01

  Mainly because I'm Asian and I get a headache and fall asleep.

• 1:18:04Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, you guys, you guys are not, not great at processing ethanol, you guys, but uh.

• 1:18:08Speaker 01

  No, no, but I do, I do, I have been known to drink and yes, it's not uncommon for me to have a few drinks.

• 1:18:17Tim Ferriss?

  If you walk into a bar, what would you order?

• 1:18:19Speaker 01

  I usually order a beer and nurse it for a long time. Tequila is probably where I go if I'm, I'm going out to have a pretty good time.

• 1:18:30Tim Ferriss?

  Right.

• 1:18:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:18:32Tim Ferriss?

  Tequila. Yeah, there's some, there's some good stuff out there. The Casa Amigos, the Casa Dragones. There's a, I was never a tequila fan because it turned me into a complete lunatic. And that only changed when I stopped mixing it with other things. So unless, unless we count Club Soda. Club Soda is a fair mixer, but if I combine tequila with anything else, it's just a recipe for disaster in my experience.

• 1:19:00Speaker 01

  Yes. Good tequila though.

• 1:19:03Tim Ferriss?

  What $100 or less purchase has most positively impacted your life in the last, say, six to 12 months?

• 1:19:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, a classic thing I always buy is one of the like niceties that I might get is this lip balm, Blackjack lip balm.

• 1:19:22Tim Ferriss?

  Blackjack?

• 1:19:24Speaker 01

  Yep. Or no, it's, uh, it's actually called Jack Black.

• 1:19:30Tim Ferriss?

  Jack Black lip balm. Got it.

• 1:19:33Speaker 01

  And I've taken it on every expedition I've ever been on and it's 25 SPF. And it's like one of the few things that keeps your lips from cracking on like a really tough expedition. So that's always nice to have.

• 1:19:50Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, that's simple. Jack Black lip balm. I'll, I may be, I'm probably not doing anything strenuous enough to warrant lip balm, but I, that, that is probably an indication that I should get out and move my ass around in more strenuous environments.

• 1:20:07Tim Ferriss?

  If you could have one billboard anywhere with anything on it, what would it, what would it say?

• 1:20:13Speaker 01

  That is a toughie.

• 1:20:14Tim Ferriss?

  Or I'll give you another one you can choose from.

• 1:20:16Speaker 01

  Well, it's funny because I, the two things that came into my mind like immediately was one was like chill.

• 1:20:23Speaker 01

  The other one was get after it.

• 1:20:27Speaker 01

  Diometrically opposed.

• 1:20:28Tim Ferriss?

  I can, I can see the conflict.

• 1:20:32Tim Ferriss?

  Well, maybe you put them in different places.

• 1:20:34Speaker 01

  Yes, maybe. And, and, and I, I think that's probably, yeah, that's kind of representative of the way I function.

• 1:20:43Speaker 01

  I tell people I'm the laziest motivated person that I know because I'm either just, you know, wanna just completely kick it back or else I'm going 150 miles an hour.

• 1:20:58Tim Ferriss?

  Right, trying to hit a first ascent.

• 1:21:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:21:01Tim Ferriss?

  Involving the house of cards and other things.

• 1:21:05Tim Ferriss?

  What advice would you give to your 30-year-old self?

• 1:21:08Speaker 01

  I would probably say, think of the long game because you freak you out. I freaked myself out so much being like, oh my God, you know, I have to do this, I have to do that, I have to do this. And, you know, I've always lived my life with a sense of urgency and sometimes that works out in your favor. Sometimes you botch it and make bad, you know, quick decisions. And as I've gotten older, I've recognized that life just has its ups and downs. I mean, the classic, you know, Buddhist saying would be, you know, the middle path.

• 1:21:47Speaker 01

  You know, you don't get super excited and overconfident when something really great happens for you. And you don't get completely depressed if something bad happens for you. And you just have to understand that, you know, life goes in these crazy waves. And you just hold steady and put one foot in front of the other.

• 1:22:13Tim Ferriss?

  I love it. And putting one foot in front of the other is, that could be the subtitle of your latest film also.

• 1:22:24Tim Ferriss?

  Could you, could you please let everybody know where they can find the film? Where they can find more information online and then where they can find you online? And of course, I will link to all of this in the show notes. But what, where can they learn more about Meru and more about you?

• 1:22:47Speaker 01

  So I think the best place to look is meru film dot com. So M E R U film dot com. And that has a little list of all the theaters and other information about the film. And then our handle on social media for Instagram, Twitter and Facebook are all also meru film or at meru film. And we're releasing online in November on iTunes. So look for us there. And then for myself, it's just jimmy chin dot com. As we all know documentaries kind of live and die by word of mouth. And hopefully people have an opportunity to see it. And if they like it, please share, share the stoke. That would be great.

• 1:23:32Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, you guys have to check it out. Meru is spectacular. We will chat maybe another time about how the hell you guys actually captured footage in a lot of these situations. I think that's an entire, entire conversation in and of itself. But folks, check it out. It's very well worth the time. You know, I love docs and this is the best one I've seen in a very, very long time. So check it out if you want to be inspired, terrified, pee your pants just a little bit, which is always, it's good every once in a while. It's healthy for your bladder and urethra. You should check it out. So Jimmy, I really appreciate the time, man. And you've inspired me to get my, get my pale lazy ass outside in much

• 1:24:16Tim Ferriss?

  greater volume in the coming years. So for that, I thank you. And

• 1:24:20Speaker 01

  Thank you for having me.

• 1:24:21Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, man. Keep up the great work and I will, I will talk to you soon.

• 1:24:26Speaker 01

  All right. Thanks.

• 1:24:29Tim Ferriss?

  Hey guys, this is Tim again. Just a few more things before you take off. Number one, this is five bullet Friday. Do you want to get a short email from me? Would you enjoy getting a short email from me every Friday that provides a little morsel of fun before the weekend? And five bullet Friday is a very short email where I share the coolest things I've found or that I've been pondering over the week. That could include favorite new albums that I've discovered. It could include gizmos and gadgets. And all sorts of weird shit that I've somehow dug up in the world of the esoteric as I do. It could include favorite articles that I've read and that I've shared with my close friends, for instance. And it's very short.

• 1:25:11Tim Ferriss?

  It's just a little tiny bite of goodness before you head off for the weekend. So if you want to receive that, check it out. Just go to fourhourworkweek.com. That's fourhourworkweek.com all spelled out and just drop in your email and you will get the very next one. And if you sign up, I hope you enjoy it. This podcast is brought to you by Mizzen and Maine. Don't worry about the spelling. All you need to know is this. I have organized my entire life around avoiding fancy shirts because you have to iron them, you sweat through them, they smell really easily, they're a pain in the ass. Mizzen and Maine has given me the only shirt that I need. And what I mean by that, and Kelly Starrett loves these shirts as well, is that you can trick people.

• 1:25:55Tim Ferriss?

  They look really fancy, so you can take them out to nice dinners, whatever, but they're made from athletic sweat-wicking material. So you can throw this thing into your luggage in a heap or on your kitchen table like I did recently, and then pull it out, throw it on with no ironing, no steaming, no nothing, walk out, and you could probably wear this thing for a week straight or make it your only dress shirt and take it on trips for weeks at a time. Never wash it, it will not smell, you will not sweat through it. You gotta check these things out. So go to fourhourworkweek.com all spelled out, fourhourworkweek.com/shirts. Check it out, fourhourworkweek.com/shirts and you'll see some of my favorite gear, including the one shirt that I've been traveling with. This episode is brought to you by Trunk Club.

• 1:26:40Tim Ferriss?

  I hate shopping with a passion. Going shopping for fun to me is like, let's go do our taxes. I don't get it. It's something that I have to do, but I don't like it at all. And quite frankly, I'm not good at it. I always end up looking like I'm colorblind or homeless or something like that. So ROI really sucky. And as a result, I decided to try Trunk Club. And I expected to dislike it, quite frankly, but here's how it works and here's why I'm now a huge fan. And just as a prelude, the items that I kept from them, I've had more compliments from random women on like t-shirts and shorts and these funky green shoes that I got than ever before, which proves that I don't know what I'm doing and they do.

• 1:27:21Tim Ferriss?

  You go to trunkclub.com/tim, you answer a couple of questions, then you get assigned a personal stylist, so mine was Robin. Then they send you a trunk full of awesome stuff that they predict you will like and look good in based on your sizes, preferences, etc., that they've covered in this short phone call. It was really short and to the point. Then, this trunk is delivered to your home. It's free of charge both ways, so you only pay for clothes that you keep. If you keep none of them, that's fine. You mail the whole thing back with a prepaid label. They even include tape to shut the box, and you're good to go. Costs you nothing. There's no ongoing subscription. This is not a subscription service, so only when you ask for a trunk, you will get a trunk. And I expected to keep maybe two items out of eight. You know, I didn't want a thousand things sent to me, so I got about eight things sent

• 1:28:06Tim Ferriss?

  to me and expected to keep two because they give you a preview online to show you what's coming, and I ended up keeping four. And I've been traveling with those. I have very minimalist luggage, but I've been traveling for a couple of weeks and I've brought everything with me because it's been so multipurpose and so well-received. It's kind of blown my mind, quite frankly. So trunkclub.com/tim, you get premium clothing, great advice for zero work. So it's a great trifecta. And the way they make money is really easy. I mean, they buy high-quality clothing at volume and they just charge you the normal retail pricing, but obviously they buy it at a cheaper price. So there's no tricks, no hidden costs. It's really easy to be the best-dressed man in the room or on the street. So their entire styling service is free for now.

• 1:28:51Tim Ferriss?

  Like I mentioned, check it out, trunkclub.com/tim. They also have clubhouses, so you can check that out, which is pretty cool. So trunkclub.com/tim, and you can get a trunk filled with sweet clothing very easily that will make the ladies want you and make the men want to be you. It is a good ROI, and for someone who's always hated fashion, now I can actually look fashionable with next-to-no-time expenditure. So, pretty sweet. trunkclub.com/tim, check it out.

• 1:29:29Speaker 05

  If you want more of The Tim Ferriss Show, you can subscribe to the podcast on iTunes, or go to fourhourblog.com.

• 1:29:35Speaker 03

  F-O-U-R-H-O-U-R-B-L-O-G dot com.

• 1:29:38Speaker 05

  Where you'll find an award-winning blog, tons of audio and video interview stories with people like Warren Buffett and Mike Shinoda from Linkin Park, the books, plus much, much more. Follow Tim on Twitter at twitter.com/TFerriss.

• 1:29:51Speaker 03

  That's T-F-E-R-R-I-S-S.

• 1:29:53Speaker 05

  Or on Facebook at facebook.com/TimFerriss. Until next time, thanks for listening.