Inner Excellence: Jim Murphy On Overcoming Mental Blocks, Mastering The Ego, Success Through Selflessness & The Pillars of Extraordinary Performance

Jim Murphy is the author of "Inner Excellence," a book compelling enough that NFL players read it during playoff games. This conversation explores Jim's counterintuitive thesis that selflessness, not ego, is the foundation of fearless performance. We discuss his journey from mental breakdown to spiritual awakening, his five years of solitude in the desert, and why self-centeredness is our greatest obstacle to both peak performance and fulfillment. Along the way, Jim reveals my own attachment to outcomes and the transactional relationship I have with love. Jim's wisdom is hard-won. This conversation is powerful. Enjoy! Show notes + MORE Watch on YouTube Newsletter Sign-Up Today’s Sponsors: Bon Charge Get 15% OFF all my favorite wellness products w/ code RICHROLL 👉https://www.boncharge.com Squarespace: Use code RichRoll to save 10% off your first order of a website or domain 👉https://www.squarespace.com/RichRoll BetterHelp: Get 10% OFF the first month👉 https://www.betterhelp.com/richroll On: High-performance shoes & apparel crafted for comfort and style 👉https://www.on.com/richroll Seed: Use code RICHROLL25 for 25% OFF your first order👉https://www.seed.com/RichRoll Rivian: Electric vehicles that keep the world adventurous forever👉https://www.rivian.com Check out all of the amazing discounts from our Sponsors 👉 https://www.richroll.com/sponsors Find out more about Voicing Change Media at https://www.voicingchange.media and follow us@voicingchange Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:02Speaker 00

  Are you willing to face your fears? And then, this is a big one. Am I willing to face any feeling? Because most people are not willing to face any feeling. They're willing to physically do a lot of hard things, and we've got to look for those feelings that we're afraid of, because that's our teacher. Because when you come to the edge of your feelings, where you're most uncomfortable, that's where you can grow, and that's where you can become someone you've never been before. And that's the limiter. We come to these feelings, we're like, "No, I don't want that feeling." And so, are you willing to face those feelings? One, you're going to look for that feeling. You're going to embrace it. And the way you're going to do it is say, "Am I willing to face my fears today? Am I willing to face any feeling?" If you're willing to face any feeling, now you've got some control, some power.

• 0:55Rich Roll?

  Hey, everybody. Welcome to the podcast. My name is Rich Roll. Rich Roll here. Is it weird to say that? Is it weird when podcasters introduce themselves by name? Especially when those shows are in their name? I kind of think it is. Which is why I never do it. So I don't know why I did it today. Anyway, never mind. 90 days today. Not 90 days sober. Been sober for a long time. But 90 days post-op, post-spinal fusion surgery. And I bring that up because I've gotten a lot of messages from all of you wanting an update on the recovery. I assume because, at least in part, because I've been a bit quiet about it on social media,

• 1:40Rich Roll?

  sort of fallen off posting those morning walks that I was doing a couple of weeks back. Because, well, look, there's a few reasons for that. One of which is that part of the whole deal when it comes to those walks is that I'm trying to be, you know, present, available, quiet.

• 2:01Rich Roll?

  Attuned, that's really the whole promise and premise of these things. But when I'm like, hey, let's capture this on video for a story or thinking about, hey, that would be cool for a photo. It just takes me out of the central conceit of the entire enterprise. So I just kind of stopped, which I guess left some of you at least wondering what's up. Did I go sideways? Why am I hiding? I'm not hiding. I'm just doing my thing. And it is coming around. I'll tell you that. I'm recording this in advance of that 90 day mark. Actually, it's more like day 80 or something today. And I'm doing good.

• 2:42Rich Roll?

  I think it's fair to say I'm out of the most acute phase of this whole ordeal, but still very limited, just to walking, still in a back brace, no PT yet, no physical exertion. But my energy levels are starting to normalize a bit. And this was the thing that has been the most difficult for me. I was just getting really tired, super tired. I could only work until about noon or one. I'm fine in the mornings, but then in the afternoons I would just crater and would have to go home and nap. But less of that now, which is good. I've got a doctor's appointment in a couple of days. They're going to x-ray my back again, take a look, let me know where I'm at, what's next.

• 3:25Rich Roll?

  And hopefully everything is as it should be. I still have pain and discomfort in that area and I'm not supposed to bend or lean or twist or pick things up or carry anything heavy. But hopefully by the time you hear this, I'll be out of the brace that I'm wearing right now and able to start doing a few more things, which is exciting, like some PT. Because 90 days is sort of a benchmark, that three month mark. I've still got a long way to go. And yeah, it has been hard, really hard at times, harder than I thought it was gonna be. And also emotionally, just not being able to do the things that make me feel like me,

• 4:05Rich Roll?

  like moving my body, which has all these downstream impacts, like how deeply I sleep. And you know, there's been a little bit of an impact on my waistline, I'm not gonna lie. Pretty soft right now. And therefore, kind of how I regard myself, how I think about my identity as an athlete, as somebody who advocates in the fitness and wellbeing space. And that has been confronting, but also super interesting, because this really is an opportunity for me to kind of face myself, to unshackle myself from the ways in which holding on to like a quote unquote capital I identity and holding myself to that identity

• 4:48Rich Roll?

  can be something that holds you back. Because these things, these things that we think we are, that we hold ourselves out to the world as, they're really just stories. They're narratives that we've constructed about how we want to see ourselves, how we want other people to see us. And our attachment to those perceptions, which honestly, I think more often than not, does more harm than good. First, because these stories, these narratives, they're not actually true. They're just constructs, these convenient fictions. And because they hold us to a set of opinions and constructs that go hand in hand with that identity that in turn, get in the way of confronting those ideas, challenging them, being honest with

• 5:32Rich Roll?

  ourselves about our buy-in, that prevent us from entertaining and exploring other ideas, from trying new things, from seeing ourselves and the world really, from another perspective. All of which, I think, gets in the way of feeling into the fact that we are spiritual beings just here, having a unique human experience. And that we're all so much more than we allow ourselves to see and feel.

• 6:03Rich Roll?

  And experience which, look, holds us back from doing what we're here to do, man, which is to learn and grow and evolve and change. So that's what I'm trying to do with this situation I'm in and the conditions that I've been given, which is to find out what happens, what it means when I deepen my surrender to things over which I have zero control and let go of the stories I've let define who I think I am, stories I like to tell myself, tell other people, to make me feel safe, make me feel good about myself and like I have value. And instead to, you know, try to find out what's beneath all that, like who is that

• 6:47Rich Roll?

  guy underneath at the core, which I can only do when I get quiet, when I tune out all the noise, when I stop running, stop trying to escape, stop thinking, stop working, stop hustling and just like drop the rock and sit in the discomfort and start listening and just be. Because I know this is where all the juice is, where all the real answers are hiding.

• 7:25Rich Roll?

  And, you know, I'd like to not just discover those answers, but actually feel what it would be like to live inside of them, to experience inner excellence, which is one of the reasons why I reached out to the guy who wrote the book called Inner Excellence, this guy called Jim Murphy. That guy's here today and... I've got a couple more things I would very much like to mention, but first.

• 8:02Rich Roll?

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• 8:46Rich Roll?

  It's kind of an amazing thing. For listeners of the show, all you special people, we're offering an exclusive $20 off an annual subscription right now. To get it, go to meals.richroll.com, take your quick personalization quiz, and enter promo code RICHROLL20 at checkout.

• 9:08Rich Roll?

  All right, Jim Murphy. Yeah, you know who I'm talking about. The guy who wrote a book so good that NFL players read it during playoff games. That guy. He was a lot different than what I expected. I guess, in my mind, I thought he would be, I don't know, like Coach Taylor from Friday Night Lights or something. But he's nothing like that. He's just this really soulful, present, calming, almost Buddha-like presence who figured out a way to put words to the ways in which high performance and life fulfillment intersect. So I suspect some of you, maybe a lot of you, are familiar with the camera catching

• 9:53Rich Roll?

  superstar A.J. Brown from the Philadelphia Eagles reading Jim's book during playoff season last year, who, at the time, I'm talking about Jim, was a guy nobody had ever heard of with a self-published book nobody had ever read, except a few people. And A.J., who was literally reading it on national television...

• 10:17Rich Roll?

  In between playing time, in the middle of a very big playoff game, which created a moment built for the internet that went instantly viral and led to all of this insane intrigue about this mysterious Jim guy. There's more to the story. It's an incredible yarn, but I'll let Jim tell the rest. The main thing I want to say right now before we dig in is that I think we hold this idea that if we want to be a high performer, then there's going to be a cost, a cost to your relationships, a cost to other areas of life that you value, your enjoyment of day-to-day life,

• 11:00Rich Roll?

  your relationships to happiness even, and ultimately to living a truly fulfilling life. But Jim's whole deal, his whole thing, is that these two things, performance excellence on the one hand, and inner life fulfillment, like sustained inner life fulfillment on the other hand, are not contradictory. These are things that are not at odds with each other. They are actually aligned. And the way to achieve these things has a lot to do with letting go of the mind, leading with the heart, learning how to be more present and more fearless, which demands selflessness and a commitment to service

• 11:44Rich Roll?

  by making what you do about something much more than you. Jim's a special one, as is this conversation. It's great, and I think you're going to dig it. So that's it. Let's do it. This is me and Jim Murphy.

• 12:05Rich Roll?

  Great to have you here, man. Thank you. I am very excited to talk to you today. Likewise. You've been on an interesting ride. The book... Deservedly is, you know, skyrocketing right now. There's an incredible story behind that book that I want to get into. And the book itself is just, it's a wonderful work that I think is in service of humankind in so many ways. I know the entry point is athletes, high performance, but it's about so much more than that. And as I was saying to you before we even, you know, started, what I appreciate about it the most, I think, is just the heart centered, you know, aspect of it, like the holistic approach to what

• 12:46Rich Roll?

  it means to, to be a human and pursue a fulfilling life. And what is the role or context in which high performance can, can thrive within that without losing scope or your eye on the real prize, which is like, we want to be happy, we want to be accepted, connected. We want to be able to give love and feel love, which is, which is a very touchy feely message. And that, that like, there's a very fine line that you have to walk to like, you know, thread that needle, the mixed metaphors, to communicate that message to the hard charging professional athlete audience.

• 13:25Speaker 00

  That's right. Well, that's why your story is so amazing because you, how you got here is, you know, when you were little, you were, you felt like you didn't fit in, right? You weren't, you weren't first picked at recess and you felt awkward. And, and I think that's what's so important for people to understand is your incredible success you have now was not this person that just like, oh, I'm just so talented and, you know, just ride this wave of just, you know, being so skilled. It was really, you felt the opposite, right? And that's, and you had all these feelings that you had to deal with and you couldn't deal with them. You felt like, in your words, and so that's why you had that, you know, you're in your 30s, that, that time of your life. And, and then you learned, well, how

• 14:08Speaker 00

  do I deal with them? And that's what made you amazing. And that's what I think limits people is because they don't deal with it. And they don't, they're not, they don't know how, and they're too afraid.

• 14:18Rich Roll?

  Well, part of the problem, I mean, it's not their fault in many ways. Like, there's a sort of societal narrative, which is that if somebody is a real striver and very achievement oriented and, and is successful at the highest level of whatever it is they do, they're going to be universally celebrated for that. And that comes at the cost of not Really fully grocking the fact that there's gotta be some pain behind that that's driving it, there's something dysfunctional there, right? That left unhealed or unchecked at some point is gonna drive that person sideways or create some kind of existential crisis.

• 14:56Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think the more talented a person is, the more dangerous it is that they're gonna move towards a life of fear and frustration. That's the, I think, something that people don't understand because... When you're really talented, then, see, our greatest need is for love and connection, and our greatest fear is not to get that. So, deep down, this is what we all desperately want, this love and connection. And if you have talent, then you're gonna be, whether you're smart or good at something, you're gonna get this applause, this love, right? And then, so, you're like, that's gonna become your identity. I am somebody because I get this. And then you're gonna crave it. That's our deepest need, so you're gonna crave it, so you're gonna want more, so you're

• 15:41Speaker 00

  gonna push harder into achievements, or looks, or money, or status. But then, you're gonna realize at some point that you can't fully control it. And then, when you realize that, now we've got this grasping onto your identity. I mean, this is what happened to me, and, you know, something I think that you've...

• 15:59Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah, beneath that, of course, is this deep-seated knowing that you're undeserving of those things unless you are achieving these things in the external world, right? And if that becomes threatened, that threatens not only your identity, but your entire sense of worthiness to these things that we need to feel human, love and connection. And that's terrifying. And so, it's very difficult to overcome that strivers dilemma, like, short of an intervening crisis. So, you know, I wanna get into your story, because I think we can't fully appreciate or understand the ideas and the principles that you talk about in the book without understanding you.

• 16:44Rich Roll?

  But before we even do that, like, we can't go any further without talking about the A.J. Brown effect. Like, everybody wants to hear that story. So, how do we begin with that? I mean, essentially, you'd written this book, and a few people had read it, and you were doing a few things in the world. But it wasn't like a book that necessarily that many people were paying attention to until a very specific day in January of 2025.

• 17:09Speaker 00

  That's right. Yeah, so the book initially came out in 2009. McGraw Hill published it and I wrote it to get clients. And we can get into that about the five years of full time writing and research going into the desert. But and it was it was going great, you know, I was getting clients and, you know, coaching professional Olympic athletes. But the book wasn't really selling a lot. And then 2018, I got the rights to it. And 2020, I self published. I worked on it for another two years and added more stories, updated a little bit, same concepts, and then self posted in 2020. So only available on Amazon. And the first 11 days of January, so January 12th was the wild card playoff game Packers and Eagles.

• 17:54Speaker 00

  First 11 days, it was probably selling one to two books a day. And then January 12th is when everything changed.

• 18:01Rich Roll?

  So A.J. Brown famously was caught on national television, reading it on the sidelines in the middle of the game. And this created like a viral moment that traveled all across the world. Like, what is this guy doing? What is this book? You know, he's getting interviewed in the locker room about it. Now he's like a bibliophile. He's like, he's got his reading list and there's a whole other thing there. But I want to just understand like your experience of that. Like, did you know he was reading it? Like, how did you find out? And then what happened as a consequence of that?

• 18:33Speaker 00

  Yeah, sure, I'll tell you about that. First, I just want to share that. I think it's so amazing what A.J. did because very few people read books. And we're so busy in our lives today and busyness and this, what John Ortberg calls hurry sickness. It's a real challenge. It's a real problem that creates this anxiety. And A.J. showed the world that you do have time to read. And also that when you're true to yourself, like he's reading the book because it makes him feel more focused and perform better and also, you know, have a better life. And He wasn't worried about, you know, the world's gonna think this or that.

• 19:14Speaker 00

  And he's like, no, I'm gonna do this because I think it's the best thing that I can do for my life. And, you know, that was so powerful and it takes courage, which I think one of the greatest things that we all can have.

• 19:25Rich Roll?

  And he was not reading it for the first time. This was like a practice, like this is, I read this book, I, you know, I go back to the, I read it to remind myself of these ideas when I'm in the midst of this high pressure situation so that I can remain calm and clear. And, and what he said in the locker room was, you know, somebody asked him like, well, what are you getting out of this, right? And he was like, well, the main thing is that, you know, clarity of mind is the most important thing, you know, irrespective of positive or negative outcomes, because you can't be at your best unless you, unless you have that.

• 19:57Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's right. So, um, okay, Sunday, January 12th. It's actually kind of a crazy week, very unique week for me. So I didn't pay off my credit cards for the first time in years. I'm gonna add money and investments and stuff, but my cash flow just was not enough to pay off my credit cards. It's like, okay, so we'll pay them off. And, uh, and business was kind of slow. And my mom was actually dying. So January 12th, she's 91 and, um, she died January 16th, so four days later. And it was actually an answer to prayer because she was suffering and she had a great life. Amazing, amazing person. But so life was kind of somber and a little lonely on January 12th, walking around downtown

• 20:42Speaker 00

  Dallas. I was there to do an inner excellence retreat. And I look up at this skyscraper and the thought comes to my mind and we're gonna talk, I know about the 12 steps. And, um, and I also, I wanna know, the third step is surrender to God. Correct me how to say it, surrender to God as you understand him, your life and will to God.

• 21:02Rich Roll?

  Yeah, your life and your will over to the power of, of, you know, a power greater than yourself. Yeah. Over to the will of a power greater than yourself.

• 21:09Speaker 00

  I'll ask you later, that power, that God, how do you understand him? But you can think about that. And so I look up at this skyscraper and, uh, the thought comes to my mind, would you rather own that skyscraper straight out for whatever hundreds of millions of dollars it's worth? Or, and I just written a book called The Best Possible Life, How to Live with Deep Contentment, Joy and Confidence, No Matter What. Came out November 2024. And, uh, it's about the spiritual life. And so I'm gonna, I'm gonna send you a copy. And the question was, would you rather have written and understood that book? Or would you take this building for all the hundreds of millions of dollars it's worth? Which would you rather have?

• 21:54Speaker 00

  And I thought about it, I thought, no, I wouldn't take the money. I'd take the book. And so I thought, well, you know, at least you got that, Jim. That's pretty cool. So that was the afternoon of January 12th. A couple of hours later, I'm in my hotel room. I'm actually watching on my laptop, Notre Dame play Penn State, a bowl game that had already happened. I look at my phone and I see a bunch of text messages. I think mom probably died. I grab it and it says, you need to watch the wildcard game. I turn it on and go to the spot and I see Kevin Burkhart and Tom Brady talking about it. And I was like, oh, this is probably going to be significant.

• 22:28Rich Roll?

  Like a very surreal moment, right? Right on the heels of a bit of a spiritual epiphany, like, you know, I'm good, you know, peace of mind. That's where, that's the shit. That's where it's at, right? I don't need all this other stuff. And by, you know, releasing that attachment or whatever, you know, whatever kind of allure or something like that had, like, almost cleared the space for, you know, some kind of abundance to enter.

• 22:57Speaker 00

  Yes, and so that's funny that that word, so that week, a couple of days later, I fly to Philadelphia. I'm going to go to the Rams game, the snow game. And I'm in Philadelphia and this guy on the street asked me for money and I had no money in my wallet. So I said, hold on here, I'm going to rent the ATM, I'm going to get some money. So I go to the ATM and I try and get $300 out and it says insufficient funds, 200 insufficient funds, 100. I get some money, find the guy, I give him some money. A day or two later, I look at my checking account and my checking account is negative. My mortgage payment bounced.

• 23:33Speaker 00

  That was the week we sold 100,000 copies.

• 23:35Rich Roll?

  Wow. 100,000 copies in one week. And because it was self-published, like basically it's all profit for you.

• 23:44Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. And the New York Times thing, you know, it's kind of a dream for every author to get into the New York Times list. And I'd actually had it as an affirmation on my phone for years. So this came out in 2009, so 16 years ago. So for years I had it. I am a New York Times bestselling author, a little pop-up thing that'll come on my phone. And which I encourage everyone to do, have these little reminders, silent reminders, just saying who you are and what's possible in your life. And I had that one for a while and then I just turned it off, you know, in 16 years. And so, a week later, so New York Times lists us every week, and a week later, I didn't think I was gonna get it because their algorithm is very, you know, they like across a lot of places to buy it and not big on just self-publishing.

• 24:29Speaker 00

  So it was a real surreal moment when I heard about that.

• 24:32Rich Roll?

  It was undeniable. I mean, yes, they don't, they like to see it spread out. There's all these sorts of rules to prevent people from gaming it. But, you know, this wasn't a situation in which you were, you know, trying to game, game the algorithm. Like, it just was undeniable that this was the book everyone was talking about. And then it was number one, right? Like, I think you sold like 200,000 in 20 days or something? I mean, and now, there was like a bidding war to republish it because it's self-published. Like, suddenly the rights are available, right? So I assume you're going with some publishing house that's gonna put this out again?

• 25:10Speaker 00

  Yeah, that was, that was just also a very surreal experience. As soon as I signed with United Helen Agency, they set up all these interviews. And so we had 14 publishers come to New York City and it was all day long, nine to five, no lunch break. 45 minute come in, they would present, 15 minute break. Well, sometimes it was a two minute break, but then the next group would come in. And so it was, it was very surreal.

• 25:37Rich Roll?

  That's wild. But I think it's important to provide some context to this. I mean, you already mentioned, you know, being overdrawn and being unable to pay your mortgage. The road to being a...

• 25:51Rich Roll?

  Responsible steward of this message was was long and bumpy. You know, I think I think to understand the potency of the book, we need to understand like how you arrived here, right? And and it begins with being this very talented, very ambitious striver of a young athlete growing up in Seattle.

• 26:13Speaker 00

  I think one thing also before we get there is to understand that I'm just the messenger. Like, people talk a lot about the author and how his life has changed, and yes, my life has changed. Travel is is different now, like in 2023 and 2024, I went to 23 countries. And so I was traveling around the world, coaching professional Olympic athletes before this. It's just there's a lot more attention now. But I'm just the messenger. I'm like the my life is really insignificant. The significant thing is, is this message that selfless is fearless? Is this something that I should consider? Is the, you know, the code of the samurai, this love, wisdom, courage, is that something that we should all think about?

• 26:54Speaker 00

  And it's really everything that you've used and shared with the world is so similar to everything in Inner Excellence. That's why I'm so excited to be here.

• 27:02Rich Roll?

  The ideas aren't new, but the expression of them is is your own. And as I was telling you before we started, like the way that you've been able to synthesize, you know, many diff many ancient ideas from different strains of thought into kind of a cohesive message that is very understandable and practical, I think, is a is is is your gift, though. You know, it's not it's not that you came up with these ideas, but the way in which you have arranged them and presented them, I think, is is is really powerful. But you have to live a life before you're able to understand those truths and translate them for anybody else.

• 27:45Speaker 00

  Yeah, and that's a good point. So the book came out 16 years ago. Why 16 years until this happened? Like, it's really, and this exact version was, has been out for five years. So why five years? And I think it's because I wasn't ready. I wasn't ready to share the, I was too self-centered. That's still my biggest challenge. But I just couldn't, I wouldn't have been able to handle it in the past. It would have been, you know, just way too much thinking about myself.

• 28:10Rich Roll?

  Yeah. So you grew up playing all kinds of sports. Baseball, football. You were in the Cubs organization.

• 28:17Speaker 00

  Right.

• 28:19Rich Roll?

  But an ocular issue kind of derailed that career, right?

• 28:23Speaker 00

  Yeah, and I think it was a subconscious derailment. My, my situation growing up was fairly unique with my mom and her, her history, Japanese history and the lineage there. And then my dad.

• 28:40Speaker 00

  He had, he was really against me becoming rich and famous because I thought it would be bad for my character, which I think is probably true.

• 28:48Speaker 00

  And so as soon as I turned pro, I had this vision problem. And I think it was because they couldn't, they never found a reason why. And so I think it was this subconscious mental block that, that at the time was the most devastating thing in my life, my whole career, my whole identity gone, totally lost. Looking back, I see it was the very best thing for me.

• 29:06Rich Roll?

  Oh, that's interesting. So in other words, you were sparing yourself for something different and perhaps better.

• 29:15Speaker 00

  Like without knowing it.

• 29:16Rich Roll?

  On an unconscious level.

• 29:17Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 29:17Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 29:17Speaker 00

  Yeah, but yeah, God was, was doing that for me.

• 29:20Rich Roll?

  Wow.

• 29:20Speaker 00

  And I was not, I was not happy about it. I was so. I mean, as bitter as you could be, like, this is, I'm supposed to be this man who's so successful. And, and like I've said so many times and then thought like, every guy is going to want to be Jim Murphy and every girl is going to want to be with Jim Murphy. And I'm going to hit home runs and be on the cover of magazines.

• 29:41Rich Roll?

  Uh huh.

• 29:42Speaker 00

  And so this is the issue, I think, that so many people have is they're, the story of their lives is so singular. My life should be this way, this version, these should be the circumstances and outcomes. And this is what holds people back because they're so rigid on, and when unexpected, unwanted things happen, they can't handle it emotionally. And so if, and inter-excellence is about expanding what you believe is possible, continually expanding what you believe is possible, letting go of your story. Letting go of who you've been so you can become someone you've never been before. And when we hold on to our past and hold on to our story, then we can't do that.

• 30:22Rich Roll?

  We're storytelling animals. We're all walking around with a story in our head that we believe to be true and are blind to the fact that it was unconsciously crafted based upon the experiences that we've had. And whether it's positive or negative, it's still a fantasy. And it's detached from reality. And in most cases, with most people, to your point, it prevents us from having a more expansive understanding of what we're capable of or what's possible. But unraveling that and figuring out how to tell a new story is a very difficult challenge.

• 31:00Speaker 00

  And you know, what happened to you is you had to come to the edge of yourself to be able to write a new story, to create a new narrative in your life, right? These new neural pathways. Is that right?

• 31:12Rich Roll?

  Yeah, but it was a function of being backed into a corner. Like, pain is the ultimate lever for these sorts of things. Like, short of suffering some form of crisis, whether it's physical or existential, you know, would I have made those changes? It's interesting because, and I say this all the time, like, we have the choice to make these changes at any given moment. It's just that it's very difficult to do unless you're pressured into it in some way. And the way I generally think about it is, the moment of change is when the pain of your circumstances exceeds the fear of doing something different, right? You have to confront that fear, or these fears are in tension with

• 31:56Rich Roll?

  each other, and which one is winning out is kind of going to dictate how you behave on some level. It's this discomfort with uncertainty that we have. Like, we don't like it, and we delude ourselves into believing that we're in control of things, and if something goes wrong, like, we didn't do something right. And I think disabusing ourselves of that illusion of control and acknowledging that uncertainty is just, that's just the landscape. Everything is uncertain. It's never going to change in that regard, so that you can detach a little bit and free yourself from self-judgment or all of the unnecessary pain that comes with things not working out the way you would like them to.

• 32:39Speaker 00

  Yeah, exactly. You know what? One of the things that's such an important topic, I think, now in America, there's so much and around the world, anxiety and fear and tension and so much out of our control. And there's a lot of people that are watching to this now, and I think that are that have this anxiety and this unknown, what's going to happen? And I think there's some really powerful things that they can do when you're afraid of the future, or whether you're a pro athlete or anyone. And there's some questions, you want me to share those with you?

• 33:10Rich Roll?

  Yeah, please.

• 33:11Speaker 00

  Well, the first question is, are you willing to face your fears? And we can get into also, because I went through a very traumatic moment as well. And I've kind of prayed a lot that myself and people that I love don't have to get to the point where we get to that major trauma to fully surrender, which is the power, right? And the power that you talk about, and the power that I talk about, that surrender to a power greater than yourself. And so, first asking yourself, am I willing to face my fears? And then, am I willing to face any feeling? This is a big one. Because most people are not willing to face any feeling.

• 33:50Speaker 00

  They're willing to physically do a lot of hard things. But there's some feelings that we're like, no, I'm not gonna, if that comes, that's the worst, I'm not gonna be there, I'm gonna run from it, whatever. But if you're willing to face any feeling, now you've got some control, some power.

• 34:14Rich Roll?

  So what is the process of doing that, like summoning the courage to face that? Is there like something that you have learned or divined that is a practice to cultivating that disposition?

• 34:27Speaker 00

  Well, I can tell you about this experience I had with some pro athletes that had a mental block. So when you have a mental block, then you're constantly thinking about it all day long. And it could have ended their careers. And so, I worked with these pro athletes, and

• 34:48Speaker 00

  When you have this fear, it starts with a feeling. It's like a panic attack. Starts with a feeling and then it goes into out of control. Right. And so the feeling is what we want to, we're going to go look for that feeling. And I got that from Conor McGregor. He talked about when he was first a new pro athlete and how he got into the ring or the octagon. And he had all these nerves. He's like, what is this feeling? This is so uncomfortable. And then he started to go and look for it. He's like, now I go into Madison Square Garden and you know, I kick butt. And so I was like, yeah, we need to go look for the field. We can't run from them. We got to look for those feelings that we're afraid of because that's our teacher. Cause when you come to the edge of your feelings where you're most uncomfortable,

• 35:30Speaker 00

  that's where you can grow and that's where you can become someone you've never been before. And that's the limiter. We come to these feelings, we're like, no, I don't want that feeling. And so are you willing to face those feelings? So we ask, I asked them, I want you to, one, you're going to look for that feeling. You're going to embrace it and the way you're going to do it is say, am I willing to face my fears today? Am I willing to face any feeling? And am I willing to have any feeling, even if it doesn't go away? And then I gave them some, some mantras, which is a, a phrase that you repeat over and over in your, in your head to use as a tool if they want. And in the moment, when they're really, really uncomfortable, you can use a mantra. And then, and some breathing.

• 36:14Speaker 00

  There's another one that I'll tell you about is mastering the ego. So I think this is such a big part of, of the rich role where you share with the world. And this surrender and mastering the ego, because it's such a big part of the 12 step process. And one of the things that I, well, I'll tell you a story first about, I had a pro PGA Tour golfer. He's in the playoffs and it's a, it's a practice round and he's got, they're playing a hundred dollars a birdie. And so when the other guy makes a birdie, you pay him a hundred bucks. And so first two holes, they both birdie the first two holes. Now he's down 400 bucks. And these are guys that are up and comers and like getting all the attention. And he's kind of a little more of a veteran. And so he's a little bit like, Get these guys.

• 36:57Speaker 00

  And hole three, he has a short birdie putt. And none of the other guys had a birdie putt. And he missed it. And he said he was nervous. And I said, you missed that because of your ego. He's like, what do you mean? I said, would you have missed that on your home course playing by yourself? He's like, no, probably not. I said, well, you were thinking about them. You really, you did not want to miss in front of them. And you really wanted to beat them. It was really this self-conscious concern for self issue, right? And so I said, when I have that, because we all have an ego. The part, I define ego as the part of your mind that's always threatened, always comparing and never satisfied. When I have that, and I love to golf. So say I have a five foot putt and I'm really nervous. And you know, I got a great approach shot, one of the fun few ones.

• 37:42Speaker 00

  And I really want to make it so that you can ask yourself, what do I want more in this moment? To be successful in this moment or to master my ego? Because obviously you want to be successful in the moment. But what do you want more? Do you want to keep having these moments where you're stressed out and anxious and wonder what people will think? Well, any wise person would say, well, I do want to be successful here. But what I want even more is not to keep having this anxiety and fear. And so if you want that more, then we know, well, two things. No, we know that the best, you don't know what the best thing for you is outcome wise. Is it to get what you want or not? We never know outcome wise. Is it the best thing for me? Rory wins the 2025 Masters.

• 38:26Speaker 00

  Was that the best thing for him and his family? Who knows? All we know is that he really wanted to. And so understanding that we don't know what's best for us outcome wise. Cause that, that should help you stay present, which is the key. And then two is to understand that if I miss, if I don't get what I want, now I get a chance to come to the edge of my feelings, to expand what I believe is possible, to master my ego by embracing this moment.

• 38:51Rich Roll?

  So either way you win.

• 38:53Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 38:53Rich Roll?

  It's rigged for success.

• 38:55Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 39:03Rich Roll?

  I mean, first of all, the idea that we don't know what's good for us. You know, we think we do, but we're operating with, you know, limited perceptual abilities when it comes to that.

• 39:12Speaker 00

  It's the problem of the single story.

• 39:13Rich Roll?

  But it goes back to the ego. Like, I know what's best for me, and I'm in control of this situation. And this is the direction that I'm moving in. And anything that interferes with that is considered a threat. And really, the whole kind of core foundational thesis of your work in this book is that self-centeredness is the greatest challenge that we face. Like, this is the enemy, right? In the context of a high-performing individual, that is confrontational because, on some level, there's a conviction that it's ego that's driving that person forward. It's me, I did this, I can only rely on myself.

• 39:55Rich Roll?

  You know, it's about like what I'm capable of doing in this moment. And I can't rely, you know, like especially in individual sports and things like that. So to say like, listen, you gotta set all that aside because it's actually hindering you. It's not your friend in this regard is a contrarian idea that I suspect with the athletes you work with is a challenge to kind of get them, get their head around.

• 40:19Speaker 00

  Yeah, and so I believe the most powerful forces in the universe love wisdom and courage, love being the most powerful. It's completely fearless. And I believe it's the energy that holds the stars in place, spins the earth, grows the grass. This energy, I think, that you've been able to connect with. Our greatest need, our greatest desire, our greatest power, unconditional love, every human. And so, since we already know that, this is where I get the connection with the person, whether they're a pro athlete or a single mother of four, understanding that their greatest need and desire and power is unconditional love. And so that's where we kind of start. Like, say we got someone that's a pro athlete, and they're not into any of this love, lovey-dovey stuff. They're just like...

• 41:04Rich Roll?

  They're like, "Dog, I'm going to the World Series." Like, enough with that, just get me there.

• 41:07Speaker 00

  Yeah, and so I say, "Look, here's what we're gonna do." I want to know when you're playing your best, what is that like? What does it feel like? And what's going on in your body, your mind, your heart, et cetera? Just give me some, um, so take me to that last timeline when you're at your best. Like, maybe we can do that with you, Rich. Like, when you're at your best, like, performance, like, you're called the fittest man in the world. And you, you know, that you have all these-

• 41:29Rich Roll?

  Not at the moment, my friend. Keep going.

• 41:32Speaker 00

  Five Ironmans in seven days. So, like, when you're at your best in anything, like, what was it like? What did it feel like mentally, emotionally, physically?

• 41:42Rich Roll?

  It's a state in which you feel completely in sync, like, mind, body, and spirit are in total alignment. And your relationship with time shifts. And it is a, I wouldn't say blissful state, but it is a state of, like,

• 42:01Rich Roll?

  of like, integrated knowing, you know? I don't know if that's the right way to phrase it, but I don't know that there are words to truly capture it. But there, when you're in it, you know it.

• 42:10Speaker 00

  Okay, and so, integrated, uh, knowing, bliss, this time-changing. Can you describe that for me with a couple adjectives? Like, the feeling, just how it, how it feels?

• 42:22Rich Roll?

  Yeah, there's a calmness to it. Uh, there's a feeling of

• 42:29Rich Roll?

  connectedness and transcendence with it.

• 42:31Speaker 00

  Okay, so, so let's say, uh, calm, connected, and transcendent is how you want to feel when you're at your best. Okay, so, what we're gonna do is, we're gonna design your life with habits of thought and action around getting you that feeling more often. Would that be helpful?

• 42:47Rich Roll?

  Absolutely.

• 42:48Speaker 00

  Okay, and so that's what inter-excellence is. And so, that calm, connected, transcendent is how I think of love. This love is, and passion and love kind of go together. And passion is the willingness to suffer. And that's something that you've kind of, so that you've, one thing that's helped you is that, because swimming is, you know, getting up at 4:45 every morning in high school. And you're, you've had this history of being able to do that, which is kind of what allowed you to get here. This willingness to suffer and surrender, that combination is incredibly powerful.

• 43:21Rich Roll?

  But it also becomes an Achilles heel at some point because what gets lodged into your brain is that the way forward demands suffering in all cases, right? Whether it's writing a book or preparing for any, it's like if I'm not suffering, like I'm not, I'm not getting the best out of me. Where the challenge that I'm currently facing and trying to master is how can I navigate these difficult projects and aspects of life, not with this disposition of having to suffer through them in order to feel like I did my best, but instead to do it from a place

• 44:01Rich Roll?

  of love and calm and connected, you know, it's like, like, these are different, different fuel sources, right? One is unsustainable and exhausting, and the other one is, is, is everlasting.

• 44:14Speaker 00

  Okay, so we're here in Westlake Village. And we are, what, 45 minutes away from the epicenter of fame and obsession in the world, Hollywood. And I think one of the biggest challenges that people face is that this obsession about achievement. And why do we get, especially in North America, I mean, it's the American way, you know, to live your dreams. And so this obsession with achievement is, can be very problematic, similar to kind of what you just said. You're living in this culture and you're 45 minutes away from the epicenter in the world of this obsession with achievement. And if you don't have very clear intention and habits and routines of making sure that

• 44:56Speaker 00

  you're focused on your purpose and how you want to feel that connected and transcendent feeling, then you're going to get caught up into this obsession about achievement. And in the book that I just wrote, The Best Possible Life, I talked about the best possible life, which I define as a, as a life filled with deep contentment, joy and confidence, independent of circumstances, a life filled with love and joy and peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. That life has one foot in joy and one foot in suffering. And so we want to remember the joy part as well. You've gotten the suffering down pretty good in your life. And so the joy part, now it's really getting into.

• 45:39Speaker 00

  Like you've mentioned also is who am I becoming is very important to you. And so who are you becoming? This is what we want to constantly come back to in our life. And so because we understanding that you're 45 minutes from this epicenter of this obsession. And it can you can easily drift and every day drift towards, okay, what matters is my achieving, getting these things, this next project done, this book, et cetera. Whereas what is what is like Viktor Frankl says, you know, what does the world expect from you? Not what do I want from the world?

• 46:13Rich Roll?

  When I reflect on that, I think about

• 46:19Rich Roll?

  my primary operating system as it has always been, which is that I'm fundamentally undeserving of love and the only way that I can get it and engender my life with it is to distinguish myself and go out and, you know, do things in the world. Right? So any threat to that-

• 46:37Speaker 00

  That's amazing awareness, by the way.

• 46:38Rich Roll?

  Yeah, but it doesn't self-awareness will avail you nothing. You know what I mean?

• 46:42Speaker 00

  It's a huge start, it's a huge start.

• 46:45Rich Roll?

  And my capacity for suffering is a very good vehicle for being able to do things in the world. Right? And suffering sort of implies that there's an earning piece to it, like you have to earn it. Whereas love is more about something you're fundamentally entitled to. Right? Like if you're coming from a place of love and expansiveness, et cetera. And, you know, behind that is the notion that like you don't have to earn it, like you already are it. Right?

• 47:16Speaker 00

  That's right.

• 47:16Rich Roll?

  And you don't even have to find it. You just have to like remember it or like locate it within yourself.

• 47:22Speaker 00

  Can we talk about love for a second?

• 47:23Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm.

• 47:24Speaker 00

  Okay, you have four kids.

• 47:25Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 47:26Speaker 00

  What do you want most for them and for Julie?

• 47:30Rich Roll?

  I want them to-

• 47:33Rich Roll?

  Experience love in their life. I want them to, you know, the, the standard answer is like, I want them to be happy, right? But what do you, what do I really want for them?

• 47:40Speaker 00

  So happiness, I define as a, as a positive temporary feeling based on what's happening. So I can go tell them a joke after this, if that's what you want for them. But you want much more than that.

• 47:50Rich Roll?

  No, of course.

• 47:51Speaker 00

  Which I, which I think is joy, which is a deep sense of well-being, closer to anyway. What I define as a deep sense of well-being and freedom and gratitude, this, this inner buoyancy, independent of circumstances.

• 48:02Rich Roll?

  Yes. Yes. You gonna help me out there?

• 48:05Speaker 00

  Okay, yes. Yeah. And so this is what you want. I mean, I don't want to put words in your mouth, but I think this is kind of what you're saying. Is that right?

• 48:14Rich Roll?

  Yeah, absolutely. Like, this is the mountain that I'm trying to climb right now. Jim, you're here at the perfect moment for me. And I've told this story before, so the audience might be bored of it, but I'm gonna tell you so you know it. I'm really trying to overcome this, uh, this relationship that I have, this transactional relationship that I have with love. And this was precipitated, like, it's sort of the next mountain to climb in like, my growth journey, I suppose. But it was really underscored by this, uh, visit that my wife and I made with the Dalai Lama this past year. We went and spent two days with him with a group of people.

• 48:57Speaker 00

  Amazing.

• 48:57Rich Roll?

  And essentially, you know, I won't believe her the story, but every question that was posited to him resulted in a version of the same answer, which is, the answer is always love, unconditional love. And if you don't know what I'm talking about, or you, you struggle to, connect with the fullness of, of, of what I'm, what I mean by that, all you have to do is imagine a mother's unconditional love for its child.

• 49:25Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 49:25Rich Roll?

  And that was very triggering for me, because I have a challenging relationship with my own mother. Uh, and so I have chosen to-

• 49:36Speaker 00

  You can switch it to love for your kids.

• 49:37Rich Roll?

  So, well, yes, I'm, I'm doing that. You know, I think I'm pretty good at, at that piece of it.

• 49:44Rich Roll?

  But I'm trying to look at this, of course, like as an opportunity, like these are the, these are the feelings I don't want to face, right? So of course, this is the teachable moment. This is, this is where all the growth can happen. And what happens if I move towards that discomfort and try to deconstruct like what was so upsetting about that for me? And what can I do to, you know, heal that so that I can feel the full capacity of love? And of course, give it in return and change my relationship with not just what I do, but who I am. Because I think the cost of being so achievement oriented is that it puts blinders on such that you're missing out on the fullness piece of life. And I think

• 50:30Rich Roll?

  why you're here and what's most interesting about your book is the fact that it upends this notion that high performance and living a fulfilling life are intention with each other. And your thesis is basically that these things are aligned, like they're one in the same. It's not, you know, the idea that like high performance, that's going to come at a cost. Like if you're, you know, if you want to do a great thing in the world, like you're going to have to sacrifice and other people are probably going to have to pay for it a little bit. And you're going to short circuit your ability to enjoy your life in other ways. And you're saying quite the opposite, which is like, no, like high performance is a consequence of pursuing a fulfilling life by, by, you know, doing

• 51:13Rich Roll?

  the things that are like inviting those experiences in your life.

• 51:17Speaker 00

  Becoming wholehearted.

• 51:18Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 51:20Rich Roll?

  That wasn't a question. I don't know what to respond.

• 51:23Speaker 00

  No, that's, I love this, this idea of love and something I hope that we can talk about after the show in your life. But if we want to think about kind of getting back to the pro athlete, that's like, you know, look, bro, I just want to win.

• 51:40Speaker 00

  I really want to get into how he wants to feel and what he wants most and help him get there so we can pursue that. It's like letting go of this little lollipop and pursuing the whole candy store, which is absolute fullness of life, to feel fully alive, which is what I want for you. And I think part of that is to pursue, to really think about, what do I want, what do I want most in my life? And to help you think about that, what do I want most for my kids? And, because you didn't mention that I really want them to have a lot of money, or I really want to write three more books so they can put it on their bookshelf. You mentioned something that was more interior, right?

• 52:17Rich Roll?

  Sure.

• 52:18Speaker 00

  And so, if that's what you want most for your kids, you can absolutely work on that and help them get it. And that's going to be where you do this work on this love and understand, this is what I want most. I want to be able to be filled with this and share it with my family and the world.

• 52:33Rich Roll?

  But the best way to teach them that is to, is to live it myself, right? Like, on some level, you know, kids will model their lives, not based upon what you say, but how you behave. And unless I'm willing to look at this and confront it and overcome it, I will remain captured by it and I will like perpetuate another generational cycle of trauma on some level.

• 52:59Speaker 00

  Yeah, because you're so talented. Yeah, you're so talented. It's so easy. The default is likely, oh, I'm just going to go achieve more. I'll write another book. I'll do more, get more into my pot. I'll do all these things because it's easy and really good at it. That's the default. And understand, well, being more successful, is that going to help me get what I want most for my family?

• 53:17Rich Roll?

  Of course not. Like, I've done enough to be, you know, well advised that, you know, another like brass ring is not really, I mean, it's nice, but it's like, it's not going to fundamentally change anything about my life.

• 53:30Speaker 00

  So this is the reminder that you need each day when you're, when you start to get drift into this achievement is like, okay, what's my purpose? And how do I stay focused on that?

• 53:39Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm.

• 53:43Speaker 00

  It's the same thing that I battle every day. We live in this world that's obsessed with outcomes. You know, I have a heart that has my own fears and dreams and hopes. And I live in this world that's constantly pulling me off track. And, you know, reacting to things, circumstances. And so I want to be more of this person that is so filled with love, wisdom, and courage, that when the unexpected, unwanted comes, I'm not attached to that story, that things have to be that way. I want to be having this no-needs sort of life.

• 54:20Rich Roll?

  Going back in your story, after the baseball career, correct me if like, this is the narrative that I've heard. I'm sure it's only loosely, you know, true on some level, but you know, you spent, you were like driving a FedEx truck, you coached high school baseball, you were a personal trainer for a while, you're kind of bouncing around like in this liminal space of like not knowing what, you know, what you were doing or what your life was going to be about. But ultimately, you had some awareness that you needed clarity. And you did this radical thing where you basically just packed up and like moved to the Sonora Desert to live in solitude essentially for like two years or something like that.

• 55:05Rich Roll?

  So I want to understand the motivation behind that and the insights that you gleaned from that experience.

• 55:13Speaker 00

  Yeah, thanks for asking. So my whole life, I thought I was going to be a superstar when I was little, 17, 18 years old. What are you going to be? I'm going to be a professional athlete. I'm going to play in the NFL. And so when I got drafted-

• 55:23Rich Roll?

  You must have been a pain in the ass as a kid.

• 55:25Speaker 00

  Yeah, I remember my uncle saying, Jimmy, very, very few people, he kept telling me, Jimmy, very, very few people, that's probably not going to happen. Yeah. And so when I got drafted by the Cubs, it was a dream come true, but also there's this fear of losing it because it was my identity. Obviously, I didn't have full control over it. And- You know, I played five years in the minor leagues and a year of college football. And then I get into coaching, which I, you know, I had no interest in coaching, but I got asked to coach. I'm driving a truck for FedEx, got asked to coach Oday High School, inner city all boy school, the JV. And I just never thought of it. I didn't know if it would be fun or if I could help anybody. And we went undefeated. And so I was like, oh, okay.

• 56:06Speaker 00

  And so this kind of obsessive personality, I think, kind of maybe similar to yours is like, okay, I coached one year of JV high school. How do I coach the Yankees and win the World Series? Like, that's what I'm going to do next. So I came up with this long plan of I'm going to get a master's in phys ed so I can pay the bills, coach the high school team, then get a job in college, do the same thing and win a championship, by the way, and then get a job in college, win the national championship and then get a job in the pros and work my way up. And so I go to University of British Columbia, I play football there, start a baseball team there, and I get my master's in coaching science. And that was actually my first book. So, so my first book was dugout wisdom, 10 principles of championship teams. I met this life coach and he said, let's go for a job in pro baseball right out of grad school

• 56:49Speaker 00

  by getting to know the people that can hire you. So I sent a snail mail letter, you know, with a stamp and envelope to every major league team, every GM and field manager saying, I'm studying how to build a championship team. I'd like to interview you for it. So I did 39 interviews in person and I get a job with the Texas Rangers two weeks after graduation. So we skipped the high school, college route. So dream come true. Now I'm somebody again. I'm, I was Jim Murphy, pro baseball player. I'm somebody, lose it, I'm nobody. Jim Murphy now has coached Texas Rangers. I'm somebody again. And then I quit six months later in tears. All of that work, the master's degree, everything, just to get this job and gone. Because? It just wasn't a good fit. And now, looking back, I thought at the time I'm a total failure.

• 57:34Speaker 00

  But looking back, I can see God was like, I've got way bigger things for you, Jim, and you're going to be held back here. At the time, I thought it was like, You know, I'm just a loser. Like, why can't I do this? And, and there was some things, like, they weren't allowing me to coach. Like, they wanted me to just put in my time, and I really want to do things. And they're like, no, you don't say anything. Really, just don't say anything when I ask you. And there's other issues that happen. But really, the main picture is understanding that I had one singular story. This has to be, I'm gonna be the best coach ever, and go to the World Series, and this is my life, and it has to happen that way. And it didn't, and then I was devastated like a train wreck. And not knowing that this was part of my training to bring me here today with you.

• 58:19Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 58:19Speaker 00

  And so, I lose, like, I'm driving home in tears from Savannah, Georgia, assistant coach for the Savannah Sand Nats, now the Savannah Bananas. And I get a call from Major League Baseball several months later, saying, would you be interested in coaching South Africa, being their hitting coach for the 2000 Olympics trials? And I fly to Johannesburg. Our bat boy's living in the tool shed of our baseball field with his mother and little brother. I'd never seen poverty like this before. His name was Gifteng Gupay, becomes an amazing kid, becomes the first African-born player ever to play in the big leagues. And we win the Olympic trials, we go to the Olympics in Sydney. Incredible experience, get to march in opening ceremonies.

• 59:03Speaker 00

  I get to meet Nelson Mandela, we have one of the biggest upset victories in Olympic baseball history. It was amazing. I'm still friends with that group 25 years later. And so, but now, what do I do next? I have this obsessive personality. I want to be, I'm supposed to live an amazing life. What's the best? But I'd already kind of burned the bridge in pro baseball. So, now what? I didn't know. I go back to being a personal trainer, which, it was great. Had clients and loved it. And had a good life in Vancouver, B.C. But I felt like, I realized, as a personal trainer, these people come to me for losing weight or whatever, but I'm like, they need a lot more than losing weight, and they need really inner help.

• 59:46Speaker 00

  And as a personal trainer, you kind of become their counselor, or their best friend. You know, you're really, a good trainer really wants to help them. And so I was, I was doing that for a couple of years and just like, I want to make a bigger difference. And, and then I get a call from my teammate in pro baseball, Ricky Scruggs, he's in Arizona, starting a baseball academy in Tucson. He said, can you come down for the launch? And I was like, this was the timing that God set up. I was like, why don't we leave this life behind and go live a life of solitude in the desert and figure out what you're going to do with your life? I give away over half my possessions, including my TV. This is before streaming. So I went to go live this life of solitude. And I just

• 1:00:29Speaker 00

  didn't really, I didn't have a clear purpose. I had no identity. I was like, who am I? I don't even know what's, anything like this. And I wanted to find something that I could devote my life to, something that I was willing to die for. I didn't have anything like that. So I go to the desert. I don't know. All I knew was, I can't have my TV because I'm going to go there. If I have a TV, I'm just going to be lonely and waste my time. So all I knew was I just, I can't bring my TV. And so it was lonely. And one of my first New Year's, I'm in this empty house and I go outside, I hear a noise, I go outside, I'm writing in my journal and I see fireworks. And that's when I found out it was New Year's Eve. I didn't know what day it was. Wow.

• 1:01:10Speaker 00

  Every day was the same, except for Sundays, I go to church. And so it was a lonely time. And when I was there, I decided to become a personal coach to pro baseball players and teach them how to have peace and confidence under pressure. And I thought about being a college coach, but I talked to Andy Lopez, head coach at Arizona, and he said, the best part of my job is the smallest part, which is the coaching. I was like, okay, not doing that. And then I came up with this new idea. Well, what if you became a personal coach to them? I'd never heard of anyone doing it. I just thought, I'm going to try that. And my first two athletes do amazing. So then I thought, okay, I'm going to put together a little manual on how to have peace and confidence under pressure for my next client.

• 1:01:52Speaker 00

  So I start to work on that. I call up a sports psychologist and, you know, I'd done all these interviews with Major League Baseball managers and GMs on how to build a championship team. And so I thought, I'm gonna call up some sports psychologists and do some more interviews. And I'm gonna ask them a couple of questions. One is, how can a Major League Baseball, in game seven of the World Series, bottom of the ninth, full count, bases loaded, two out, how can that guy, down by one, how can he have peace and confidence under that pressure? And similarly, how can an Olympic athlete train for four years for an event that may last less than a minute? How can he have peace and confidence, or she, in that moment? And I didn't get the answers that I wanted. So I called in another and another and another, and I spent five years full-time writing and researching that question, and that becomes this book.

• 1:02:39Rich Roll?

  That's an amazing thing. The peace, the quiet, the solitude. Giving you the space to glean the clarity about not just what you wanted to do with your life, but also what mattered most in the context of the, you know, the things that you were interested in, right? Like, do I really wanna be a coach? Is that really where it's at? It's the, it's what's behind, it's like the coach behind the coach. Like, what's beneath the surface here that makes the most difference in terms of performance and living a fulfilling life? And short of, of, you know, having gone, you know, like Kung-Fu wandering out, you know,

• 1:03:21Rich Roll?

  wandering, relinquishing your possessions and, you know, kind of like wandering off into the distance, like, I don't know that you could have arrived at that.

• 1:03:31Speaker 00

  Yeah, it was, um, it was what I had to go through to come to. And I think similar to what you had to go through, and that's what I said earlier, is that I pray that my friends don't have to go through what I went through to come to this point where they surrender to a power greater than themselves and have a clear purpose for their lives. The problem is, if you're really talented, it's hard to surrender. The more you have money, possessions, achievements, looks, the harder it is to surrender.

• 1:03:55Rich Roll?

  Things need to get stripped away a little bit before your, before willingness descends.

• 1:04:00Speaker 00

  That's right. This is what happened to both of us. Our lives got stripped away. I didn't tell you about the trauma that happened to me after the book came out.

• 1:04:06Rich Roll?

  Which was what happened?

• 1:04:09Speaker 00

  So.

• 1:04:11Speaker 00

  Five years full-time writing and researching this book. I didn't go there to the desert to write a book. I just went there, like I said, to figure out what to do with my life. And so I end up getting a New York City literary agent. Thank you, Rita. And a major publisher, McGraw Hill. It gets into Barnes and Noble, which is kind of a dream for new authors and in bookstores around the world. So this is 2009 December. And you'd think I'd be like, wait, it worked. It happened, yes. But instead, the opposite happened to me. I almost had a mental breakdown. And this is no surprise as I look back, because our greatest need, we're created for relationship, for love. It's our greatest need.

• 1:04:55Speaker 00

  And I isolated myself for five years. And I mean, I wasn't like in a teepee somewhere. I was in the edge of town. I lived in the baseball academy for a couple of months with no shower. But I was not like going to social events and I was just really trying to have this life of solitude. And so, you know, what's the greatest punishment in prison? It's no contact with people. There's no relationships. You're on your own. And so prisons have understood that our greatest need is for relationship and our greatest punishment is to take that away. And so I kind of went on my own for five years, essentially.

• 1:05:34Rich Roll?

  Writing a book about how important experiences and relationships are.

• 1:05:39Speaker 00

  Yes, yes, yes, exactly. And so I had to go through this to write the book. And so, five years, full-time writing and research. I get the books in bookstores, but I'm in downtown Denver. I'm speaking to some high schools and I'm having a mental breakdown, about to. And I was thinking, okay, I spent my life savings and I went $90,000 in debt. And those five years of writing the book, I don't know what my income was, but it was below minimum wage. I was not making much money. And so I'm going into, you know, a lot of debt. And I'm thinking, Okay, you're $90,000 in debt. You have no money to hire someone to market the book.

• 1:06:23Speaker 00

  You don't know how to do marketing and you don't like promoting yourself. This is not a good marketing plan. If no one hears about the book, no one will buy the book. If no one buys the book, Barnes and Noble will pull it off the shelves. And this could happen in just a few weeks. Five years, your life savings, everything, down the drain if this happens. And I couldn't see how it was not going to happen. I had that singular, this is how it has to be. And so I was like, if no one buys the book and they pull it off the shelves, you'll be a total failure. And now I wrote the book so I could coach pro athletes. Well, no pro athlete is going to hire you to coach them because you're a failure. That'd be stupid. So you're going to have to get a regular job. But in 2009, the economy in a recession, no one's hiring failures.

• 1:07:07Speaker 00

  Not 7-Eleven, corner mini mart, Starbucks. You're not going to get a job anywhere. You're going to die alone in the street. And so that was my mind spinning out of control, spiraling. And I had no, when you don't have anyone there, the community around you is so crucial to develop yourself and become who you want to become. And I didn't have anyone, I didn't have people around me. I had a few friends, but that was it. And so, but what I did have is one guy that I called, Ricky Scruggs. And I said, tell me what to do. And he said, find a homeless person and help him. And so I look around the corner, downtown Denver is this guy with a grocery cart full of stuff, holy shoes, playing a full-size harp.

• 1:07:52Speaker 00

  You know, very unique situation. I go and sit down next to him. I listen to him play this beautiful music. I look in my wallet and I had $100, which means I must have taken a cash advance because I, my credit cards were mostly maxed out and I had no money. And so for some reason, I had the cash advance, that money in my wallet. So I took the $100 out, I put it in his bag and I leave to go to run, go back to where I stayed and run on the treadmill so I can just breathe, get through the day. Come back to that same area and I'm sitting in the Starbucks. I can't function, like can't do anything. I'm just trying to wait for the day to get in over, so much anxiety. And the homeless guy walks in and he walks past me, stops in his tracks, turns around and says, are you the guy that gave me that money? And I said, yes.

• 1:08:36Speaker 00

  And he said, thank you so much for caring for me. No one's cared for me like that before. And he leaves and he comes back with a box of chocolates and a bracelet that he made and a card, and he gives all three to me. And when I was writing that book, I took it to my, my friend Jennifer from church. And I said, can you make sure this lines up with the Bible? I want to make sure this is filled with deep wisdom and there's no errors. She looks at the book and says, have you ever heard of the word Zoe? It's a, it's a Greek word and it's in the Bible a lot. It means absolute fullness of life. And that's what Jesus said he came to do, to bring you fullness of life. And she said, I think that's what your book is about. And I said, yes, that's absolutely what my book is about.

• 1:09:18Speaker 00

  My whole life I've obsessed about being rich and famous and being so successful. When what I've always really wanted was to feel fully alive. I just didn't know it. So I started to orient my book around the pursuit of this Zoe life, fullness of life. And let everything else be added to you. You become better at everything else. And you may not get it, but it doesn't matter because you're, you're pursuing this best possible life. And so I'm in the Starbucks, I open up this guy's card, this homeless harpist. And it said, thank you so much for caring for me. No one's cared for me like that before. Love Zoe. The homeless harpist's name was Zoe. Wow. I'm like, your name is Zoe? And, uh, cause I was in this kind of a daze and like, what? And he's like, yeah, I go, do you know what your name means?

• 1:10:02Speaker 00

  He said, no, I said, it means absolute fullness of life. I've been studying that for five years. I just wrote a book about it. So I wrote, Dear Zoe, thank you so much for sharing your beautiful music with me today. You don't know what that means to me. Love Jim. I give him the book and never see him again. So that's February 2010. And that's when my life started to change. Six weeks later, April 1st, 2010, the day I'll never forget. So now it's what 15 years ago. I, uh, you know, have all this anxiety, right? And I walk into, I go to a friend of a friend's house. I mean, I go to a friend's house and he's really having a really hard time in his life. And I go to support him. Knock on the door, I still remember what he's wearing and, uh,

• 1:10:43Speaker 00

  He says, I say, "Hey, Nick, how's it going?" He's like, "Jim, let's go to my friend's house." And so I'm like, "Okay, whatever you want to do." So we go to his friend's house, this Iranian guy, and I walk in and he's cooking dinner at 10:00 a.m. And he starts to tell me about my life, but I never met him before, like this prophetic weird thing. And he's like, "You're banging your head against the wall and you're not getting anywhere and you're always obsessed about some goal." And I'm like, "How does this guy know about me?" This is exactly how I feel. And then this gal in the house, Jamie, I'd never met her, she walks over and she drew a picture of a kite, hands it to me and says, "What's wrong with this picture?" And I said, "Well, your kite doesn't have a string." And she said, "Yeah, that kite is you. A slight breeze will blow you away."

• 1:11:27Speaker 00

  And I was like, "Oh, my gosh, that's exactly how I feel. This is crazy." And so they said, "Can we pray for you?" And so my personal philosophy is always accept free prayer. So they pray for me. They said, "You should come to our Bible study tonight." I go to the Bible study that night and I'll never forget that night. I felt God saying, "There's nothing you've ever done or could ever do would change how much I love you." God, as I understood Him, says this to me. And I felt like I had a million things to do, the weight of the world on my shoulders. It all had to be done yesterday and I didn't know how to do it. And it all fell off that night, this extreme anxiety to extreme pieces of night I'll never forget, April 1, 2010.

• 1:12:12Speaker 00

  And so that night I said, "God, I'll surrender this 12-step start." I was like, "I'll surrender. Just tell me what to do with my life. I'll do whatever you want." And like I said, if you have a lot of skills and talents and money and possessions and achievements, it's hard to surrender. But I felt like I had nothing. So, and that's where I had to come to, to be able to surrender. And so I say that prayer and then that's when everything started to get a little crazy. Wow. That's an incredible story. There's a little more. Can I tell you? Yeah, continue. This, we've got about two more minutes of this story. Keep going. A year later, this, I'm in my friend's house in North Vancouver and I'm about to walk out. So in about a year and a half period, there's three or four times total strangers

• 1:12:57Speaker 00

  tell me, um, God wanted me to tell you this. And it never happened to me before or after, just this one year and a half period. And so it's kind of strange, right? And so a year and a half later, summer of 2011, in my friend's house, about to leave, his mom calls on Skype from India and we're in North Vancouver, BC. And I said, oh, tell her, I said hello as I'm walking out the door. She says, oh, Jim's there. My friend wants to talk to Jim. I was like, okay. So I sit in front of the laptop. Lady had never seen me before, other side of the world. She said, God wanted me to tell you a couple of things. And I was like, okay. She said, God, everything that you've been going through has been training for you. God's going to bring people from all over the world to work with you. It's going to happen soon. He's going to bless you and it's good and you're going to know

• 1:13:42Speaker 00

  it's from God. It was very specific. And I'd never had the stranger tell me anything very specific about what's going to happen in my life like that. Couple of weeks later, I'm sleeping alone in my house and I hear a voice and it said, Jim, things are going to happen faster. You ready? And I assumed it was God because I live alone. So I was like, yes, God, I'm ready. And my alarm goes off right away. I was like, oh, maybe he's serious. Cause my eyes were half, my clothes and I was half awake. And then a couple of weeks later, that's when everything started. Jude O'Reilly, caddy in Dublin, Ireland, contacts me and says, hey, I read Interexcellence. Can you talk to my boss? He really could use

• 1:14:23Speaker 00

  your help. His boss was a golfer in Sweden named Henrik Stenson. I fly out there to work with Henrik. Couple of weeks later, get a call from Tigers coach, Sean Foley. I read Interexcellence. Can you talk to one of my clients? I fly out to California, I think it was the Chevron event, meet with Sean and Hunter Mahan. A few weeks after that, I get a call from the CEO of Young Brands, which is Taco Bell, KFC, Pizza Hut. I read Interexcellence. I'd like to work with you. Um, he sends the book to executives in Europe. I start to work with some of them. One of them, I said, hey, you should come to Vancouver and do an Interexcellence retreat. He agrees to do it. Then I think, okay, now what is an Interexcellence retreat? I didn't tell him I hadn't done one before. So I put together this retreat.

• 1:15:06Speaker 00

  He does it. He's like, this is extraordinary. Can you bring the same retreat to my team in Europe? My leadership team. I fly out to Europe. I do this InterExcellence Retreat. And in the retreat, you clarify your life purpose and you learn InterExcellence Principles. And it was really one of the best weeks of my life, just so alive. And I'm still friends with the, it was the head of KFC Spain, KFC Germany, KFC Netherlands, and me, and I'd never done a corporate retreat and I was so nervous, but God totally blessed it. And it was an extraordinary experience. And so Henrik goes on to win the FedEx Cup a year and a half later. Hunter Mahan wins a PGA Tour event within several months. Wins the world championship, Matt's place several months after that.

• 1:15:48Speaker 00

  I've been coaching professional athletes and Olympic athletes around the world ever since, and executives, and doing these retreats. And now I get to be on the Rich Roll Podcast.

• 1:15:57Rich Roll?

  So what do you make of all of that? Like if you have to distill that down into some kind of message that you were given, or a message to somebody who's watching or listening to this? What do you want people to extract from that story?

• 1:16:12Speaker 00

  There is a God who created the universe. I mean, there's three. I was talking to a friend who was an agnostic. There's really three options. There's no God, there's multiple gods, or there's one God. And I think it's really the most important thing you'll ever do is, is ask yourself, well, what is it? And think deeply about it. And the God that I believe in, I wanted to find out about, because step three of the 12 steps asks you to surrender your life and will to God as you understand Him. And so the God I believe in is filled with unconditional love and wants us all to live with absolute fullness of life. And that's why He sent His Son for us to live that life. And I had this obsession with this life that I thought was the best possible life.

• 1:16:54Speaker 00

  And it was, God had something far better for me. But I was trying to push a square peg into a round hole. And I didn't know it. I just kept pushing and pushing. And like you talk about so much is this alignment and spiritual growth. And that's what interexcellence is. It's like, look, there's, there is an energy that grows the grass and spins the earth and holds the stars in place. This energy, call him God, I call it the creator of the universe. But there is an energy that we can all connect with. And it's this energy of love. And you, but you have to surrender your little power, your little vision. And when I say you, I mean me and all humans, for the power of the universe. That's what we all can do. And that's what's available to everybody.

• 1:17:40Rich Roll?

  Beautifully put. What I make of that is basically, the idea that if you think you're in control of your life, or you're driving the train from a place of ego and self-will, it's not really going to work out. And if you want a chance at a, at a bigger life, a life that perhaps, you can't even imagine for yourself, you're going to have to surrender that self-will to a power greater than yourself. And until you do that, you're going to be on some kind of hamster wheel that may go someplace, but even if you get

• 1:18:23Rich Roll?

  there, isn't going to be what you thought it was. It's not going to give you that feeling that you always thought that it would. And in your case, you were somebody who already had a rich relationship with God, you know, living your life based on, based on faith on some level, on some level, right?

• 1:18:41Speaker 00

  We're all human.

• 1:18:42Rich Roll?

  So here's the thing. But you're still that kid that like, you know, confident, perhaps a little bit cocky kid who's like, I'm destined for greatness. And this is the way it's going to work out. And, you know, I'm going to make it happen. Like, this is what we're doing. And you're so attached to this. You're so attached that you're going to be someone. And this is what it's going to look like. Even after writing this book about how that's not really the way to be. And, and God, you know, higher power, the universe, whatever you want to call it, is just not going to let you have that. Like, there's no way that this guy who's, who's written this book that's full of wisdom is gonna, is gonna, I'm not gonna let him go out into

• 1:19:25Rich Roll?

  the world and talk about it because he's not actually living it, right? And until he does, he's benched, right?

• 1:19:31Speaker 00

  Yes, yes.

• 1:19:31Rich Roll?

  And you had to, you know, go through what you went through until you finally, you know, were willing to like, let it all go. And surrender is a very loaded word for a lot of people. It's associated with giving up, or, you know, throwing in the towel. But it's really this courageous act of trust where you say, "I'm not in control here. There's something else going on here, and I am going to trust that I will be guided," which is incredibly threatening for anyone who's, who has been driving their own train their entire life. But not only is it this incredibly cathartic thing that, that releases all this

• 1:20:14Rich Roll?

  baggage and all this pressure and, and allows you to kind of navigate through life more freely, it opens you up for the miracle that you can't see. And it's like you had to burn in the fire to be the, to be the phoenix so that you could rise. And it's like you had to learn that lesson before you could go and do the things that you're doing now because you would not have been a worthy steward of the message because you weren't walking the talk.

• 1:20:41Speaker 00

  Yes, exactly. And I think, like, you, you said the, the point so well, surrender is not a word that, that Western culture is, is really likes to use. But really is the most powerful thing that someone can do. And so you can think about it as like, say, an alcoholic surrendering the keys to someone who's sober. It's the most, definitely the wisest thing that you can do. It's, it's the sunflower surrendering to the sun. It's, it's the little lollipop for the whole candy store. That's what we're talking about.

• 1:21:12Rich Roll?

  We're all just walking around with our space helmets on, you know, thinking we know what's going on, you know, and just bumping into walls all over the place.

• 1:21:20Speaker 00

  That's why humility is so crucial and accurate of yourself.

• 1:21:23Rich Roll?

  Yeah, and humility, you know, is best when earned the hard way, I think, right? Like when you've been ground down so that you can really honestly inhabit it. And that's the energy that you give off, like the, you know, the humility that you have is a very real thing. And, and anybody who spends five seconds with you can, can feel like coming off of you.

• 1:21:44Speaker 00

  You know, there's a guy that I listen to a lot now, Tyler Staten, and over at Bridgetown, and I'm telling everyone about him because I think his, his message is so powerful. And he had stage four cancer in his early 30s. And I think that's why he's so powerful, because of that.

• 1:22:05Rich Roll?

  Because?

• 1:22:06Speaker 00

  That forced him to do.

• 1:22:08Rich Roll?

  He's had to let go of every idea of what he thought his life would be.

• 1:22:11Speaker 00

  Yeah, and surrender to this power greater than himself and, and have a sense of real accuracy about my life is very fragile, I could lose at any moment. And understanding that that's true every single day, waking up with that understanding. And so to live it fully.

• 1:22:30Rich Roll?

  If somebody has been defining success in a traditional way their entire life and has been successful as a result of that, or as a byproduct on some level of that,

• 1:22:45Rich Roll?

  how do you disabuse people of that and redefine success for them? And what is that redefinition?

• 1:22:51Speaker 00

  Yeah, so we have four daily goals that help you redefine success on a daily basis. But it's really, what I do in the retreats and with clients is help them take these steps to really look at what do I want most in my life? And that's, like, we don't want millions of dollars or millions of followers for that itself. We want what we think it'll bring us. And, you know, in this book and in Best Possible Life, I talk about this question of,

• 1:23:18Speaker 00

  what would you rather have, a $10 million house on the water? Paid off, or would you rather live in an apartment paycheck to paycheck, no savings the rest of your life, but be guaranteed amazing experiences, deep enriching relationships, filled with love, joy, peace every single day your whole life, which would you rather have? And I know for my life, it's most of my life, it's I don't have to think about it. I'll take the house. Until I had a few experiences that drove me to this traumatic surrender. Then I started to really think about, well, what do I really want most? Because if you've never had anxiety, why do you want peace?

• 1:24:01Speaker 00

  It's you need to experience the pain to, like you said, to really make these changes in your life. And so that's what Interexcellence is. Say, hey, let's find out what you want most and let's go for that directly.

• 1:24:16Rich Roll?

  The house, the car, the vacation home, the promotion, whatever it is. We confuse these things for the things we really want. Like, the reason we want them, you know, it's about status or a sense of security. But beneath all of that, it's like, well, why do you want status? So that you're loved and appreciated. And, you know, why do you want security? Because you have some fear, like you have a discomfort with uncertainty, right? That that will never be resolved, no matter how big your house is or how much money is in your bank account, right? So, so essentially, the message is like sidestep all of those distractions,

• 1:24:58Rich Roll?

  because you can meet all of those needs in a cost free way if you change your mindset and your behavior.

• 1:25:07Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's like we need a GPS because we're constantly getting like a 747. It's constantly off track going from Seattle to San Diego. And it just constantly brings it back on track with the GPS. That's what we need, because we live in this culture that's obsessed about these superficial transactions. And we need this GPS to constantly bring us back. So we need to set up our environment that's very intentional of what we see and interact. With every day, that's moving us towards what's lasting and permanent instead of the temporary and transactional.

• 1:25:37Rich Roll?

  So a lot of this has to do with with retraining the mind and mindset. You know, you talk about the monkey mind and the critical, the critical mind, the negative self talk, the ego, like all of these things are interference that derail our best selves. But if you have a lifetime of lambasting yourself in your own mind and have never known anything different than that, how do you begin to untangle that knot and get people to develop a better story about who they are and what they're capable of?

• 1:26:13Speaker 00

  Yeah, there's a couple of things that I think about, and I think about actually inter excellence disciplines. We're coming out with an inter excellence workbook here next year and they'll have the disciplines in there, but we want to simplify your life. So anxiety and you know, when you talk about someone who has a lot of negative thoughts and beating themselves up, that's really tied to too many thoughts and anxiety. And so we need to really simplify life down, really in my mind to one sentence. Like, for example, my life purpose is to share God's love, wisdom and courage with athletes and leaders around the world, with everybody, but that's kind of that little niche. And so simplify your life and then, because we just have way too much coming at us, too

• 1:26:57Speaker 00

  much information, too much negativity, we need to really orient your life, your environment, your people around what's most important to you, how you want to live and feel, who you want to become. And we're all walking in, in my opinion, either love or fear, some version of love or fear, we're walking in gratitude or entitlement, this expressive, creative creativity or this self-conscious, self-protective energy. And so one of the things that's important is

• 1:27:34Speaker 00

  Doing hard things, making sure your life is, this now we're getting into the suffering part which you've mastered, is depriving the senses.

• 1:27:47Speaker 00

  Or you can say depriving the appetites. It's kind of this, I'm no expert on asceticism, but this ascetic ideal is, we just have too much coming at us in general. That's why this anxiety, there's too much information, too many thoughts. We need to really narrow it down and then, and not be constantly giving in to the, because the problem with addiction is, you know, this, things that prevent our growth. And the phone is something that really can prevent your growth and get the dopamine hits from constantly reaching for the phone. And so that's where we, when we regularly deprive the appetites like reaching for the phone or, you know, fasting and things like that, then we can, we can start to get a little

• 1:28:32Speaker 00

  more clarity.

• 1:28:33Rich Roll?

  How do you counsel professional athletes on that? Like, these are people who are getting just an insane amount of attention. They're, they're getting paid a ridiculous amount of money. And so the, the allure of all of these material things that are out there and available to them make the asceticism aspect of this like, you know, a lot more difficult than it would even for a normal person.

• 1:29:00Speaker 00

  Yeah, in fact, on the way here, driving here, I was talking to a major league baseball player about this. I said, one of the things that's important for you, I said, you're a pro baseball player is immersed in this culture like 12 hours a day, every day, even on your days off, you're with your coworkers. And this is obsession with, with results and outcomes. And so what, what is important for you is to find, how can I spend time every day with zero thoughts on baseball? Ideally, zero thoughts at all. Like, for example,

• 1:29:43Speaker 00

  If you're in a cold plunge, you're probably not self-conscious. You know, what are people thinking about me? And am I going to get a hit tonight? You're just like trying to get through it, right? And so getting into your, mixing into your life, regular ways to clear your mind, renew the mind, and stop thinking about the to-do list.

• 1:30:06Rich Roll?

  Meditation, breathing exercises you talk about, visualization.

• 1:30:11Speaker 00

  Yeah, part of the 12 steps that you do.

• 1:30:13Rich Roll?

  The big one, though, where the intersection with the 12 steps is really most meaningful, has to do with the story that you just told, where you, you know, you got some of the only money that you had, and you went and you gave it to this guy, right? On the advice of someone who said like, "You need to do something for somebody else." This is like core to recovery in that service is the ultimate antidote to self-obsession. And self-obsession being the real like infection that you're trying to cure people of on this path towards inner excellence, like developing a service-minded approach to life,

• 1:30:58Rich Roll?

  where you're entering situations looking for what you can contribute and what you can give, rather than what you're going to extract from it to, you know, garnish your ego. In my, in my experience, like this is the ultimate, like, I hate the word life hack, but like honestly, we're all self-obsessed from time to time. And we're caught up in our own narrative about what's happening or what's not happening. And this guy did that, and I have too much to do. And to just get, if you want to really get out of yourself, just, it doesn't have, it doesn't have to be going to a soup kitchen. Like you pick up the phone and you call someone who you know is having a hard time, or you just make yourself available to somebody who could benefit from.

• 1:31:42Rich Roll?

  Your open-heartedness, even if it's just a, you know, a small gesture. These are the things that I think are, are the things that move the needle the most in disabusing ourselves of our ego and our story and all of the things that we think are benefiting us, but are actually our biggest Achilles heels.

• 1:32:04Speaker 00

  Yeah, for sure. And, and one thing that you can do, and it reminded me of when you're talking about that and serving, is there's going to be somebody who's listening to this, who has a friend that's going to be moving soon. When you help someone move and you do it joyfully and stay to the very end and don't ask for a single thing and don't act like it's a big chore, that is something that friend will always remember. It's so powerful. When you bend over backwards to help someone else out, it really helps you out. The other thing I was going to say about what you just said that's so powerful is serving in secret. I think John Ortberg talks about this. When you serve in secret, it frees yourself from

• 1:32:47Speaker 00

  self-consciousness, frees yourself from what are people thinking about me? This, this unconditional love, when you give this love, it really empowers you every time you do it.

• 1:32:58Rich Roll?

  It's something that we misinterpret as a sacrifice or some kind of like martyrdom or something like that. But the truth is like, if you want to feel good, this is the way to do it. It will make you feel more connected to other people.

• 1:33:12Speaker 00

  Joy comes from love.

• 1:33:12Rich Roll?

  All of this. Right. So it isn't, yeah, it's an act of love. Right. And you're like, this is an imposition. This is a distraction. You know, it's annoying or whatever. And then it gives you all the things that you're thinking you're going to get by doing all the things that are, you know, causing your busy life on the other side.

• 1:33:30Speaker 00

  Yes, exactly. Okay. So if I, if I get promoted and I get a million followers, I get a million dollars, I win a gold medal, then I'm going to have this joy. If I go help my friend move, I'm going to have joy.

• 1:33:40Rich Roll?

  I know.

• 1:33:40Speaker 00

  No, I gotta go.

• 1:33:42Rich Roll?

  Jim, why is it rigged this way?

• 1:33:45Speaker 00

  You know, I always tell people, I was like, you know, I don't, I'm not saying, you know, how I would have done it. Like the best possible life, one foot in joy and one foot in suffering. I wouldn't have created it this way. I'm just saying this is how the universe works. I, for me, I wish it was one foot in joy, one foot in joy. That's, you know, I think that's going to be heaven.

• 1:34:02Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Is it true that like your great, great, great grandfather was one of the last Samurai?

• 1:34:10Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:34:10Rich Roll?

  This is true, right? And so the Samurai philosophy is also infused in the book. So talk a little bit about like that and how you think about that philosophy and on some level genetically embody it.

• 1:34:28Speaker 00

  Yeah, I mean, I have, Japan is my favorite country in the world. I guess it's kind of in my, in my spirit. And my mom, you know, she, she's full Japanese and so her family has this incredible lineage. And I mean, even in her, her own family directly, like her, her brother is a nuclear scientist and another brother is a judge honored at the emperor's palace. And another brother was an editor of a major paper. But that, kind of the ethos of the Samurai. What was really cool was I'm doing this research on, I started out with writing, I just want

• 1:35:12Speaker 00

  to write the book, the best book ever written on mental toughness. And then I, along the way, I found out that, that I realized love, wisdom and courage are kind of the three pillars that I believe are the most powerful forces in the universe. And then I'm studying about the Samurai and then I come across the Bushido code, the Samurai code, and then it says, love, wisdom and courage. I was like, oh my gosh, it's like in me. This is crazy.

• 1:35:37Rich Roll?

  This is your destiny after all.

• 1:35:39Speaker 00

  My DNA, right? Yeah. And so when I was writing the book, I had this, it started off with, okay, I'm just gonna write the best book and how to have the most peace and confidence under the most pressure and so people can just achieve extraordinarily. And then I realized, I don't want to help someone become world number one or Olympic champion if it doesn't change their inner world, if it's not meaningful. Like, am I just gonna help someone be really, really successful in their outer world? And

• 1:36:08Speaker 00

  What's the meaning in that? And so I was like, I need to do something more than just help people achieve. And then the thing that changed my life was in the research realizing that the path to having the most peace and confidence, to performing your best under the most pressure, which is many people in America today, more than a pro athlete, working two jobs, kids at home, that path, training your heart and mind for that, is the same path of living the best possible life. The life with that deep contentment, joy, amazing experiences, deep enriching relationships, where you're learning and growing and making a difference, is the same path. That's what changed my life. That's what interexcellence is. This wholehearted path, where like when you talk about a lot, like being in sync and surrendering

• 1:36:52Speaker 00

  to this greater power, that's what interexcellence is.

• 1:36:56Rich Roll?

  And that's the big contrarian is the wrong word, but I would imagine kind of challenging idea for a lot of people, as we mentioned earlier, like this idea that these two things are of a peace rather than at war with each other. So in your, in your practice of working with athletes and other high performers, is it a challenge to get that person's head around that? Because if they're successful because they've compartmentalized their life in a certain way, what you're suggesting is a bit of a threat. Like you gotta, you gotta tear down that house and we're gonna build a new one from the ground up that takes into consideration all of these things that you feel like you have to sacrifice for the case of greatness.

• 1:37:41Speaker 00

  Well, I want to get to the four daily goals that I mentioned earlier. And before I get to that, I want to talk about kind of how we, how we start with interexcellence. And it's, and like I shared previously, that it's, I want to know how you want to feel when you're at your very best. And so this, this connectedness that you talked about, this transcendence. And so then I want to know like who you want to become, which is the exact words that you said are really crucial, right? Who are you becoming? And maybe, I'm sure everyone wants to hear that, actually. That's the billboard, right?

• 1:38:11Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I mean, that was the, that was my answer to a question that Tim Ferriss asked me. He's like, if you had, if you could, you know, put a phrase up on a billboard, like, what would it be? And my initial answer was like, who are you? You know, like, who am I or whatever, which is, you know, like, it's a profound question, but it's sort of like, all right, it's easy to dismiss. And I thought a better way of, of approaching it is to ask the question, like, who am I becoming or who are you becoming? Because in every moment, we are becoming something different. Like, there is no stasis. Change is happening to us, it's happening for us. We can resist it, or we can be in relationship with it.

• 1:38:53Rich Roll?

  And to the extent that we can leverage the, you know, the fundamental rule of physics in nature, which is that everything is in flux at all moments, where is the opportunity? And how are you evolving? Like, every, every choice is either regressive or progressive. Like, you're either evolving or, or, you know, moving in the wrong direction. But you're never the same, even though we think like, oh, everything's cool. It's, this is the way that it is, right?

• 1:39:22Speaker 00

  Can't step into the same river twice.

• 1:39:24Rich Roll?

  To disabuse yourself of that, yeah. And realize like, oh, there's a choice in every moment. And every decision, thought, behavior, action is either moving you towards the person you want to become or away from it. And this goes back to, like, being in a treatment center. And after 100 days, upon my release, being reminded by the counselor, like, listen, every thought, behavior, action is either moving you towards a drink or away from it. And I thought, reflecting on that, like, that's as true of everything, right? If, if you just replace drink with, you know, who, this more authentic, fully actualized version of yourself, or, you know, the, the gutter drunk, you know, regressive version of you. It works in, in every regard of life.

• 1:40:09Rich Roll?

  So, I think it's a profound question in that regard. But I went on, I don't even know what you were asking, or where we were at with this, but.

• 1:40:16Speaker 00

  Working with athletes and how do we get them to get to this place where they're focusing on who they're becoming, which is one of the questions, rather than the process of developing who they are rather than the result. Because when you develop who you are, then the results are the best that they can be. And so, we start with, how do you want to feel on and off the court, or the field, or the ice, or whatever. And often, they're very similar, how they want to feel when they're at their best. And then, start to think about, what do you want most? And clarify that. And why are you writing this book? Why are you doing this podcast? What are you really doing it for? And so, often, like I did with you, asking, well, what do you want most for your kids? And what do you love most? And what do you want most for them and for yourself? And so, now, we're

• 1:40:59Speaker 00

  starting to get into a little more clarity. And so, redefining success, we want to constantly do that every day. And so, InterExcellence has four daily goals. And so, the first one is to give the best of what you have every day. Understanding that some days, it's only going to be like 30 or 40% of your best. We need to understand this, because people run into frustration, and they really get off track, because they don't have a realistic understanding of what's going on. And when you're on a 30 or 40% day, you know, maybe you're sick, and had an argument with your partner, and just have a lot of stress, and coach doesn't like you, you may not have a good day. And so, understand, I'm going to give the best of what I have. And that's it. That's success. Giving the best of what

• 1:41:42Speaker 00

  I have, not the outcome. Did I give the best of what I have? And then, two is to be present. There's no fear in the present moment. Three is to be grateful. Gratitude is directly linked to inner peace, and inner strength, and mental toughness. They're all connected to beauty. And then, four is to focus on your routines, and only what you can control. So, this is the four daily goals that we have every day, under the overarching goal of learning and growing.

• 1:42:04Rich Roll?

  And all of those goals are process goals, that have nothing to do with outcomes or destinations.

• 1:42:09Speaker 00

  Yeah, I don't talk about outcomes at all with my clients. When we first get started, I ask them what they want. And then, when we set goals, it's really, these are the ones that we focus on. And then, I ask them, have you set outcome goals in the past? If so, have they helped you or hurt you? And have they created more pressure? Or have they really motivated you? Because everyone's different. And so, we want to make sure that they have the... The big thing is...

• 1:42:35Speaker 00

  The most successful people at anything, like who wins the British Open in golf coming up, they're going to walk by faith, not by sight. In other words, they're going to stay connected to the vision. They're not going to get thrown off by unexpected unwanted things. And this is what we, I want to help people do.

• 1:42:52Rich Roll?

  That reminds me of a story that John John Florence told here a couple of weeks ago. World champion surfer anointed the next Kelly Slater since he was a tiny kid and was very successful in his youth and won two back-to-back world championships and then really struggled for a number of years until seven years later, this past year, he, he won his third world title. But we were talking about visualization and he was sharing that what he has learned to do that has been most effective is not to visualize like the, the nuts and bolts

• 1:43:34Rich Roll?

  of the experience of being in competition, like every detail, what are you eating and how are you like all the logistics of it so that you can be prepared for all of the variables. And one of the reasons for that is there's, there's too many variables in surfing. You have no like, it's just like, everything's out of control, right? You get the wave you get, there's people all over the place. Like it's just, it's impossible to, to anticipate what might or might not happen. And what has been effective for him is visualizing how he wants to feel out there and realizing that the pressure of having won two back-to-back world championships and carrying that burden of being the next

• 1:44:14Rich Roll?

  Kelly Slater was interfering with his ability, A, to be present when he was out on the wave and to be attached to these outcomes based upon expectations, other people's opinions, all these things you talk about. And in truth, remembering like, I know how to do this. Like I know how to surf and in order to surf to the best of my ability, I have to get out of the way. Right? And so when I'm doing my best surfing, I'm not thinking about it, but I do have a feeling, like there's this feeling. And so his visualization is like, how do I want to feel? It's like engendering that feeling and

• 1:44:51Speaker 00

  So powerful.

• 1:44:51Rich Roll?

  That feeling is a product of practicing these four daily goals, like gratitude.

• 1:45:00Rich Roll?

  Being present, giving the best of what you have and hopefully inhabiting that, you know, essentially that that flow state, that transcendent state where everything is in alignment.

• 1:45:12Speaker 00

  You know, that's, that's really powerful. And what I would also add that would be powerful as well. So I think with visualization, one thing that people make a mistake on is, is like you said, trying to visualize every possible outcome and also just seeing themselves being successful, like a golfer seeing birdies or whatever, a football player catching touchdowns. That, that can be helpful. But what's more powerful is seeing how you want to feel exactly what he's doing and seeing yourself overcoming adversity. When you visualize, we want to can make sure that, that your subconscious connects with the feeling that you're going to have when you're out there and also connects with the feeling, great feelings that you've

• 1:45:53Speaker 00

  had in the past. And so you might visualize 100 times some future event going well and then you get out there and you don't get that feeling. And it's because largely because when you visualize, the feeling that you had was not similar to the feeling you had when you got out there. In other words, you got out there and you're really nervous, you're visualizing there's no nerves. So your subconscious didn't connect them. We need to find a way to connect the two. So when you get out there, you're going to feel similar, your subconscious like, oh, I've been here before. And so part of that is visualizing the adversity and seeing yourself handling. And what we do with inner excellence is we visualize handling things that will never happen. Way more adversity than you're ever going to find. And so, because we don't ever want to be in a situation where we're, we're

• 1:46:38Speaker 00

  thrown off emotionally.

• 1:46:40Rich Roll?

  Yeah, you're dysregulated because of some unanticipated thing.

• 1:46:43Speaker 00

  Yeah, I don't want them to say, look, Jim, Rich, that's never happened in 20 years of my sport. I'm like, okay, well, you have to be ready for anything. That's why we visualize more than you're ever gonna happen, have happened.

• 1:46:58Rich Roll?

  In working with all of these people over the years, what have you discovered about the difference between the athlete or high performer that gets it, they read your book, they hear what you're saying, they're able to put it into practice and make these changes and progress forward versus the person who either resists what you're talking about or gives it their best shot, but just can't really make that leap from where they are into the behavior changes and thought patterns that are gonna flip the switch?

• 1:47:32Speaker 00

  Yeah, so since I started 15, 20 years ago, the majority of my clients have had the best year of their careers, our first year together, or the best year in their last five years, but not everybody. And I think there's many reasons why people don't do well, but one of the reasons why I think that I've seen that people that haven't really taken to it is they weren't able to get out of their own way. And part of that is that ego. And there's a lot of people come to me naturally, they, "I don't care what we do, Jim, I just want to perform better." I mean, that's human nature, right? Whatever this love, lovey dovey stuff, it doesn't matter, I'll do it, but I just want to get... And they're not able to make the leap because they're not able to get out of their own way, whether it's ego or pain or some trauma, that they can't see the leap, or it's not a leap,

• 1:48:17Speaker 00

  they can't see the connection

• 1:48:19Rich Roll?

  The connection, yeah.

• 1:48:20Speaker 00

  Between, okay, what I really want, it's not what I really want is to win a PGA Tour championship or the US Open or whatever it is. What I really want is to live a meaningful, fulfilling life with amazing experiences, deep enriching relationships. That's what I really want. And they can't see, they're just like, "All I know is if I win this event, if I get more successful, I have better feelings, I have a better life in their mind." Because they're singular story, singular picture. And I wasn't able to get them out of that. And so if I can't get them out of that, then they're just gonna go through the motions and it's not gonna work, because we're looking for a heart transformation, like you have talked about before, new neural pathways. So your reactions, when you're squeezed, like an orange, when it's squeezed, orange juice comes out. When we're squeezed, what's in our heart,

• 1:49:04Speaker 00

  which is the epicenter of everything you think, say and do, your spirit, your will, when we're squeezed, we want inner peace to come out. And so that's what inner excellence is, getting this transformed heart, creating new neural pathways.

• 1:49:17Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:49:19Rich Roll?

  What's interesting about that is I'm envisioning the guy who comes to you because he wants to win the PGA Championship and then you give him an earful and he reads the book and all of that and he's like, "If I do what this guy says, I'm never gonna win that. This is like, this is gonna ruin my chances of winning the PGA Championship." Like, it's very, you know, it's like a threat, you know?

• 1:49:39Speaker 00

  Well, loving your opponent, that's not an American way.

• 1:49:42Rich Roll?

  I knew this guy, this was years ago, a very successful guy who got into yoga and he would go to this yoga class that we would go to and he's like, "I can't stop coming here, but if I keep coming here, I'm gonna lose all my money."

• 1:49:59Rich Roll?

  It's funny how that works, because on some level, your book is a bit of a Trojan horse. It's sort of like the Tao of life for Westerners, you know, but you have to wrap it in this high-performance, you know, packaging so that people are like, "Oh, you know, I want that. I want to read that." But they crack the, you know, they crack the spine and, you know, they're in for a ride because there's so much more going on here.

• 1:50:23Speaker 00

  I think it's the same thing that you've shared with the world. You're saying, "Hey, it's a spiritual journey." And we live in a culture that's like, "Oh, that's a little bit, I just want success." And so, this is the same message that you're sharing.

• 1:50:37Rich Roll?

  So, how do you translate that for the spiritually or religiously allergic?

• 1:50:45Speaker 00

  It's just getting to that love, you know, what do you love most and who you're becoming, like, if they have kids, what do you want most of your kids? And often, they'll say, like, kind of what you shared, "I just want them to be happy." And then, I'll share with them about, I think, probably what you really want is them to have this meaningful, fulfilling life with amazing experiences and et cetera. And so, if that's what you want, the number one way, kind of what you said earlier, is who you're becoming is gonna impact them. That's the number one thing for you to learn to have this peace and joy in your heart. And I can teach you how to have that and how to pursue it. I don't know if teaching is the right word. When I talk to, work with people, I don't say that I'm the teacher. I say, "Look, I have my own fears and weaknesses and self-centeredness."

• 1:51:30Speaker 00

  I'm gonna share with you what I've learned and I'm gonna share with you my journey. You're gonna share your journey. We're working on the exact same things. I want to have more peace and joy under pressure and I want to be walking love, not fear, be grateful, not entitled. But I'm human, just like you. We're gonna work on this together.

• 1:51:46Rich Roll?

  And what is the biggest challenge that you're confronting with your inner life right now?

• 1:51:53Speaker 00

  Since January 12th, my life has been a lot different, just so many more cities. And amazingly, there's abundance, more people that are willing to chat with me. And so there's a couple of things. One is busyness is, like Henry Now and said, is the enemy of the spiritual life. And when I say spiritual life, I mean a life of deep contentment, joy and confidence, no matter what. I'm not talking about religion. And unless you say true religion, which is taking care of widows and orphans and things like that. But this is the path of inner excellence is how can I get out of my way,

• 1:52:38Speaker 00

  my own ego, which leads to fear and have what I want most, this amazing fulfilling fullness of life and work on that every day?

• 1:52:48Rich Roll?

  In the context of now being in a situation in which your ego is getting, you know, is getting stroked, you know, more than ever, right? Which is all the more reason why you were spared having this opportunity earlier.

• 1:53:06Speaker 00

  Right, I couldn't have handled it before.

• 1:53:07Rich Roll?

  But now, it's, yeah, but now it's being tested, right? And so you have to really be conscious of how well you're walking.

• 1:53:14Speaker 00

  Yeah, there's two things. That's a great question. Two things that's gonna be really important for me going forward. In fact, God told me at the Super Bowl in New Orleans, in my hotel room. One is proximity to the poor is gonna be really important for you. And then the other thing is day three, so I think of day one is January 12th, when all of a sudden the onslaught of interviews and attention. And day three, it's 3:00 AM, my heart is racing. And it's just, it wasn't anxiety from too many concerns. It was just so much coming at me. And it was like, how do I handle all this? And then looking at all the book sales and there was this kind of overwhelm. And I think like someone who wins the lottery or something like that,

• 1:53:58Speaker 00

  you have so much coming at you at once. And then it was this amazing moment. God said, look, Jim, it doesn't matter if you sell a thousand books, a million books or a billion, what your bank account is, how many zeros, none of that matters. You're not going to change. Your purpose stays exactly the same. And look, you didn't do this, I did it. You're not doing it. I'm doing it. So you don't need to be, make sure you say the right thing, do the right thing, because this was not your doing. And I talk about in The Best Possible Life. At most, if I were to contribute to anything good that's happened in my life, it would be 2% out of 100. God would be the 98%. I talk about how Michael Phelps, use him as a scenario with 23 Limb Gold Nettles.

• 1:54:40Speaker 00

  2% is what I would say is our contribution.

• 1:54:45Rich Roll?

  You also give away like a percentage of the royalties on your book, right? You have a foundation for that or charitable outlet for that?

• 1:54:54Speaker 00

  Yeah, the Interactions Freedom Project. Yeah, so we do these house builds in Mexico with Youth With A Mission. It's amazing, you have to come. It's just the house build alone is life changing. And it's really this understanding when you do it, that we need the poor more than the poor need us. It's easy to think, oh, I'm going to go there and do my good thing. But how did, like if we just look at our lives, how did we have anything good come in our life? We had to come to the point where at the end of ourselves, where we felt like we had nothing. And there's only, surrender was the only other option. And that's why, when you're, so the greatest force in the universe is unconditional love.

• 1:55:36Speaker 00

  And you can, and the most powerful love, there's a love that's so powerful, it's not available except through weakness and sacrifice. And like, for example, think about the earthquake that I always think about in Haiti, this terrible thing.

• 1:55:53Speaker 00

  If you're there digging people out of the rubble, are you concerned about what you're wearing and self-conscious what do people think about me? There's no concerns about that. You're just digging to save someone's life, right? And that's what weakness, there's a strength in love that's only available in weakness that comes out. And that's kind of what we try and do with how people understand with the Interexcellence Freedom Project and building the houses in Mexico. You fly in and out of San Diego, it's four or five days. But what I do is I add an Interexcellence Retreat to it. And so we do both. We build the house in two days and then we add a full day of Interexcellence.

• 1:56:35Speaker 00

  And it's a way that the public can have this life-changing experience with building a house with this family. Because we get there, there's just a foundation, we walk away and they're giving them the keys to their new house and new life. And so it's a way you can have both for, you know, most people can't, aren't able to do an Interexcellence Retreat. So this way they can.

• 1:56:53Rich Roll?

  And what happens on the retreat?

• 1:56:55Speaker 00

  So we have, with the Interexcellence, we have, we go through the same retreat that I give over three days to professional athletes and, you know, people all over the world. And I just take them that, through that in like a day and a half. And they come in, we stay at the base in Sanada or in Tijuana. And yeah, it's really powerful.

• 1:57:21Rich Roll?

  Wow. With all the media attention that you've garnered over the last year, is there anything that gets missed or misunderstood or underappreciated about what you're trying to communicate?

• 1:57:36Speaker 00

  Well, I think the main thing is people putting the attention on me. And like I said, I mean, I'm just someone that tried to surrender to this message that God's sharing with the world. And that He chose me is this incredible honor. But I'm just average person. I'm really nobody significant.

• 1:57:55Speaker 00

  That's the kind of mistake I think that's happened is people kind of think about me.

• 1:57:59Rich Roll?

  And what is the one thing as we kind of wind this down that you want to make sure that that comes across that everybody kind of understands about this idea of inner excellence? Like if there's one thing that they walk away from this conversation and reflect upon over the coming days, like how would you put words to that?

• 1:58:19Speaker 00

  Well, there's two things that so the there's inner excellence has three principles that we kind of live by. And the first one is that everything is here to teach me and help me. It's all working for my good. And understand that that I think what separates the most successful people in any walk of life from everyone else is courage. And we can all be courageous. And so understand when you look back on your life, if you want to, anyone that's listening or watching can can, they can live an extraordinary life with amazing relationships and experiences. And but it's going to take some courage to master your ego and start to work on that every day and letting go of who you've been. So

• 1:59:02Speaker 00

  you can become someone you've never been before and facing those feelings that you haven't been willing to face before. Understand that that self centeredness is the biggest challenge that we face in performance and in life. And humility is not, I think it's really misunderstood. I define humility as as an accurate view of self. It's not over inflated. It's not under inflated because some people they don't realize that when you're saying, oh, who am I to do this or that? That's an egocentric thing to say, who am I to do this? Like, who are you not to do that? You're you're created in God's image? We all have this potential within us to to live this life filled with amazing experiences. It's just that we get in the way. And if you're willing to to face your fears and

• 1:59:46Speaker 00

  work on your ego, then and have the courage to take one little step today, then anything is possible.

• 1:59:52Rich Roll?

  And the courage, I think people associate courage with ego in some regard, like I have to summon the courage, like I have to like my, you know, I have to like have the summon the confidence or whatever, believe in myself in order to do this thing. But the courage you're talking about is somewhat the inverse in that you have to, it's the courage to like relinquish the ego, right? And embody, you know, the humble servant notion.

• 2:00:21Speaker 00

  It's also the courage to be afraid. And so Tom Cruise said it so well. He said, you know, he's famous for doing all these stunts and being this mega star. And he said something that I've always remembered, something along the lines of, you know, everyone's afraid. The only difference with me is that I'm not afraid to be afraid. And this is what we want to do with Inner Excellence, to live a new, a life that where you're really having these amazing experiences is are you willing to be afraid and sit in that feeling?

• 2:00:58Rich Roll?

  I think that's a good place to stop for today. I could talk to you all day.

• 2:01:01Speaker 00

  Likewise, thank you.

• 2:01:02Rich Roll?

  That was amazing. My inners feel excellent right now.

• 2:01:06Speaker 00

  Awesome.

• 2:01:07Rich Roll?

  I'm feeling a sense of inner excellence, just being in your presence. You're a gift. The message that you've been entrusted to share that has been channeled through you and is reaching so many people right now is a really powerful one and a great one. And I think it's a beautiful mission that you're on. And I appreciate you taking the time to come here today and talk to me.

• 2:01:30Speaker 00

  Yeah, thank you so much. It's such an honor to be here. And especially, you know, of anyone, I was so excited to spend time with you because of the journey that you've been on. And you've shown us all that we can all have courage and we can all change our lives.

• 2:01:44Rich Roll?

  I think that we are all dancing atop reservoirs of untapped potential. And the journey towards releasing or breathing expression into that potential is something we're all capable of. And maybe we're not going to win the PGA Championship, but I think we all have a song inside of ourselves that we want to sing. And everything in your book is about how to nourish that expression and walk the planet a little more authentically with a little bit more grace and with this idea of love that I'm struggling with, Jim. And I'm going to be calling you because I need your guidance.

• 2:02:24Speaker 00

  We're going to work on it, yeah. I need it more than anyone.

• 2:02:27Rich Roll?

  Yeah, amazing. Thank you so much, and please come back again.

• 2:02:32Speaker 00

  Thank you. I would love to.

• 2:02:33Rich Roll?

  Cool.

• 2:02:41Rich Roll?

  That's it for today. Thank you for listening. I truly hope you enjoyed the conversation. To learn more about today's guests, including links and resources related to everything discussed today, visit the episode page at richroll.com where you can find the entire podcast archive, my books, Finding Ultra, Voicing Change, and The Plant Power Way. If you'd like to support the podcast, the easiest and most impactful thing you can do is to subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, and on YouTube, and leave a review and/or comment. And sharing the show or your favorite episode with friends or on social media is, of course, awesome and very helpful. This show just wouldn't be possible without the help of our amazing sponsors who keep

• 2:03:25Rich Roll?

  this podcast running wild and free. To check out all their amazing offers, head to richroll.com/sponsors. And finally, for podcast updates, special offers on books, and other subjects, please subscribe to our newsletter, which you can find on the footer of any page at richroll.com. Today's show was produced and engineered by Jason Camiolo. The video edition of the podcast was created by Blake Curtis and Morgan McRae with assistance from our creative director, Dan Drake. Content management by Shana Savoy, copywriting by Ben Pryor. And of course, our theme music was created, all the way back in 2012, by Tyler Pyatt, Trapper Pyatt, and Harry Mathis.

• 2:04:09Rich Roll?

  Appreciate the love, love the support, see you back here soon. Peace. Platz. Namaste.