A ‘Babygirl’ Holiday with Harris Dickinson

To close out the holidays, our conversation with actor Harris Dickinson. We discuss his latest role in Halina Reijn’s Babygirl (6:50), Nicole Kidman’s “disarming and generous” quality on set (9:27), and the exploration of masculinity in Harris’ roles— from Beach Rats (12:48) to Triangle of Sadness (13:03) to Babygirl (13:24). Then, we dive into the online discourse about his new performance (15:52), his upbringing in Walthamstow, England (17:10), and the early short films he made with his high school mates (20:20). On the back-half, Harris unpacks his formative university years (24:45), his post-grad search for purpose, first in the military (30:20) then working at a hotel in east London (33:26), and the inspiration behind his forthcoming directorial debut (34:25). To close, we talk about the parallels between filming fight scenes (43:50) and intimate scenes (44:48) and the Charles Bukowski poem that keeps him creating (52:25). Thoughts or future guest ideas? Email us at [email protected] mailto:[email protected]. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:02Speaker 00

  Lemonada.

• 0:21Sam Fragoso?

  This is Talk Easy. I'm Sam Fragoso. Welcome to the show.

• 0:39Sam Fragoso?

  Today, I'm joined by actor Harris Dickinson. At just 28 years old, Dickinson has quickly become one of the most fascinating performers we have. He emerged seemingly fully formed in Eliza Hitman's Beach Rats, playing a young man from a seaside neighborhood of South Brooklyn grappling with his sexuality. I actually still remember seeing the film at Sundance where it premiered and just being completely spellbound by both, of course, the film, but Dickinson's work in it. That was back in 2017. In the seven years since, Dickinson has continued working with distinctive filmmakers.

• 1:20Sam Fragoso?

  Joanna Hogg in The Souvenir Part II, Ruben Osselin in Triangle of Sadness, Britt Marling in A Murder at the End of the World, and Sean Durkin in The Iron Claw. His latest project is no exception. Written and directed by Helena Rain, Baby Girl is a game of corporate cat and mouse between an intern played by Dickinson and a high-powered CEO played by Nicole Kidman. Here's a clip from the trailer.

• 1:49Speaker 00

  Is now a good time to introduce the interns? Yeah.

• 1:53Speaker 02

  I chose you as my mentor.

• 1:54Speaker 03

  I'm not a part of that program.

• 1:56Speaker 02

  Oh, no, you are. You're on the list. I got an email and I clicked on your name.

• 2:06Speaker 03

  How'd you get that dog to calm down?

• 2:07Speaker 02

  Good girl. I gave it a cookie.

• 2:09Speaker 03

  You always have cookies on you?

• 2:11Speaker 02

  Why, do you want one?

• 2:17Speaker 03

  Being a CEO means being a nurturer and a collaborator.

• 2:21Speaker 02

  Jones.

• 2:22Speaker 03

  No, what?

• 2:25Speaker 02

  Is that what you want?

• 2:28Speaker 03

  I have these fantasies.

• 2:30Speaker 02

  What do you mean? It's about giving and taking power.

• 2:35Speaker 03

  What did you do, go to a library, look that up?

• 2:37Speaker 02

  This is what I'm talking about.

• 2:38Speaker 03

  No, I'm sorry. I'm so sorry. No, no, no, no, no.

• 2:42Speaker 02

  Say it.

• 2:43Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 2:46Speaker 02

  I will do.

• 2:47Speaker 03

  I will do.

• 2:50Speaker 02

  Whatever you tell me. Say it again.

• 2:53Speaker 03

  I'll do whatever you tell me to do.

• 2:56Speaker 02

  Good girl.

• 2:58Sam Fragoso?

  That was from Baby Girl, now playing in theaters across the country. The film is in the tradition of those great erotic thrillers of the 80s and 90s. Body Heat, Fatal Attraction, Basic Instinct, Disclosure, even Eyes Wide Shut, which also starred Kidman. But it's Dickinson's turn as this confident, self-possessed upstart that makes the movie. He's somehow both alluring and reserved, seducing Kidman's character one word at a time. Hilton Als, who is a great critic and also happened to be our guest last week, said, quote, "He's a character actor who's a star. He doesn't just show up.

• 3:39Sam Fragoso?

  He has Montgomery Clift-level transparency mixed with earth and smell. He's there for you, for all of it." I love that comparison to Montgomery Clift. I think it's a good one. And so today, we talk about the physicality of his work, how it both embodies and examines modern masculinity. We also get into how Harris came to be, his working-class upbringing in East London, his earliest work directing short films on YouTube with friends in high school, a disgruntled teacher that nearly derailed him, and a whole lot more.

• 4:16Sam Fragoso?

  I also want to say before we get going, some of you may have seen the news that we are now making the show with Lemonada Media. We are absolutely thrilled to be with them. And I just want to give a quick shout out to Pushkin Industries. We were with them for three years and they believed in the show long before just about anyone else did. I don't want to get too sentimental about it, but everyone over there that was in our corner, you know who you are. It's been a hard time for the podcast industry and the folks over there are still, even in

• 4:56Sam Fragoso?

  2025, trying to do good and interesting work, which is increasingly rare these days. With that, I hope you enjoy this sort of end of year holiday special with actor Harris Dickinson.

• 5:22Sam Fragoso?

  Harris Dickinson, welcome to the show.

• 5:24Speaker 02

  Thanks so much for having me. What a treat to meet you, mate.

• 5:27Sam Fragoso?

  How are you feeling?

• 5:28Speaker 02

  I just, I just got here yesterday and I'm happy to see you, man. I'm happy to be here and to talk about this film, but also to talk to you. Forget about the film because that's not important right now. It's just me and you and.

• 5:43Sam Fragoso?

  You made it sound like we've met before, but we haven't.

• 5:46Speaker 02

  We've never met.

• 5:47Sam Fragoso?

  We've never met.

• 5:47Speaker 02

  I feel like I know you just from listening to you. Is that something you hear a lot?

• 5:51Sam Fragoso?

  We hear it from time to time.

• 5:52Speaker 02

  How long have you been doing it?

• 5:53Sam Fragoso?

  Eight years.

• 5:54Speaker 02

  Eight years?

• 5:55Sam Fragoso?

  Almost nine. Yeah.

• 5:57Speaker 02

  Congrats.

• 5:57Sam Fragoso?

  Thank you. Should we start with your new movie?

• 6:00Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 6:01Sam Fragoso?

  In Baby Girl, Nicole Kidman plays the boss of a robotics company who strikes up an affair with your character, an intern named Samuel. Now, this like, this eroticism.

• 6:15Sam Fragoso?

  Is familiar territory for Nicole. I'm thinking about movies like To Die For and Eyes Wide Shut.

• 6:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 6:21Sam Fragoso?

  As you started to prepare for this, did you go about watching those movies in that spirit?

• 6:27Speaker 02

  By the way, To Die For is one of my favorite films. When she dances and she's like, move your hips now, now you're dancing. And she's videoing them, it's such a good.

• 6:34Sam Fragoso?

  One of my favorite movies.

• 6:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, it's an incredible film. I mean, I definitely grew up watching her films. I mean, I, I think like the most, the youngest ones was probably Moulin Rouge because it was most family friendly and I saw that very young. But then, you know, Dogville, I remember watching the, um, the behind the scenes thing they constructed for Dogville. Did you ever see that?

• 6:53Sam Fragoso?

  No.

• 6:53Speaker 02

  Where everyone went into booths and they kind of did these faux interviews with everyone. That was, set up the film to be a complete failure and Lars was out of control and.

• 7:04Sam Fragoso?

  That sounds like him.

• 7:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, but I mean, we, I think we set up our own unique little dynamic. I, um, our director Helena was very specific with the way she wanted those scenes to be and those, I guess the eroticism of them was important, but more so was the nuance of like behavior for us and like how you perform those roles within certain dynamics. I think we've, we've all learned, um, how to be and how to behave and how to perform, whether it's through, I don't know, pop culture film, whatever, porn, whatever. But we, um, we have an idea of how things are and what things people like.

• 7:45Sam Fragoso?

  Hmm.

• 7:46Speaker 02

  And often, um, it's the contrary or, or, or we're, we're trying to oppose them. That was no exception for the film. You know, we wanted it to be funny as well. We didn't want to sort of be self-serious with this genre because it could have very easily been like, you know, something overly serious and, and trying to be too sexy, which is then in turn so unsexy.

• 8:07Sam Fragoso?

  Yeah, no, no, it is seemingly intentionally awkward at times. Like it is, it is uncomfortable in the ways that sexual encounters definitely can be.

• 8:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 8:19Sam Fragoso?

  I read somewhere where he said, I was deeply intimidated walking onto the set, meeting her. How did you two go about letting that go? Like, how do you eventually land on the same plane together and make this movie?

• 8:32Speaker 02

  I think I was intimidated, but I was intimidated until I met her because she's, she's very disarming and.

• 8:43Speaker 02

  She's very kind and generous. So I think I was like,

• 8:49Speaker 02

  yeah, I don't know, man. You're always a bit intimidated when you meet people you admire, aren't you? I mean.

• 8:54Sam Fragoso?

  I'm nervous right now.

• 8:55Speaker 02

  It's same, by the way, because I admire you. But you've interviewed such incredible people. What are you on about? How could you be nervous to meet me? What the fuck? I'm just a random bloke off the street, basically, you know?

• 9:06Sam Fragoso?

  I want to do a good job, that's why. And I think what you're doing is special. So since the start of your career, I feel like you've been creating what are essentially studies in masculinity. There's like a repressed Brooklyn teenager in Beach Rats, subservient male model in Triangle of Sadness, the hard living middle child of the Von Erich family in The Iron Claw. When it came to Samuel and Baby Girl, how did you grapple with his masculinity in a world where our sexual politics are like continuing to change?

• 9:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, I knew that he was, okay, so I'm 28, he's 20, he was like 22, 23, right? So he was a little bit younger than me. I knew that, just from my own experience with people in my family or people I know, particularly at the moment, we don't have to name names and give them that airtime, but there is, there is a whole slew of sort of potentially like troubling influences online. We all know that, whether, whatever.

• 10:10Sam Fragoso?

  Is there something you're thinking about in particular?

• 10:11Speaker 02

  No, but I think it's confusing. I think it's confusing and like you dig into like the YouTube world a little bit. And I come from that as well, you know, I've grown up on that.

• 10:23Sam Fragoso?

  You started making videos early on.

• 10:24Speaker 02

  I started making videos young. I was on Vine and I was like, I had a web show on YouTube. So I'm, I'm part of that little microcosm and I know how toxic it can be there as well. And I think Samuel. I approached him in a way as this very confused young man figuring out how to be. Because also, we're told, even my own experience with masking it, you know, I I I grew up with very like different male figures in my life that had a lot of strength and also a lot of vulnerability. And that was confusing to witness, you know.

• 10:59Sam Fragoso?

  Why confusing?

• 11:00Speaker 02

  Because in many ways, you would watch someone hold themselves in a certain way and encourage you to be, you know, a certain kind of man, and then you would see them fall a little bit. And you see something that was that was contradictory and that would confuse me. And I think it's confusing still, like, okay, we're we're told to be like very um, hold it together and be strong. And then also, in a way, we want to be vulnerable. And it's a it's a specific, maybe localized thing I'm talking about here. I think we are moving past it. But um, he and maybe some of the other roles I've played have have grappled with that, have grappled with the idea of of of what it means to be a man and what it means to express yourself in certain ways

• 11:44Speaker 02

  and express your desires, you know, even in Beatrice, it's it's all about. Um, it's about sexuality as well, and it's about the the misunderstanding of it.

• 11:52Sam Fragoso?

  I think you have explored it in in all different kinds of ways and all different kinds of movies. Like, when you were making Triangle of Sadness, playing a male model that wanted to be taken care of, you said, quote, "I would go home after a day of shooting feeling a little bit gross. You feel quite pathetic indulging in these neuroses of someone." After a day of shooting baby girl, when you went home, how did you feel?

• 12:21Speaker 02

  Not too dissimilar, to be honest. But mainly because I was, you're doing vulnerable stuff and you feel like a little bit embarrassed. Not because of the environment, the environment was lovely and very safe and whatnot. But you it's it's you feel a little bit silly sometimes as an actor, you do, you feel quite silly. Do you know what I mean? You're like, what am I doing? This is not. It's a strange one to grapple with because I'm, you, you inevitably you get a piece of the character kind of coming home with you, not to be pretentious about it, but I'm not a method actor, whatever, I don't know, whatever, but.

• 12:55Sam Fragoso?

  Yeah, but it's a human experience.

• 12:56Speaker 02

  It's a human experience.

• 12:57Sam Fragoso?

  You're putting yourself in the film.

• 12:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, you're, you're, you're forcing yourself to go through something in a way. And then you kind of have to figure out what that means to you as a person when you go home. But yeah, Trangasalage was different because it was really about like tapping into your own like inner like pathetic person, which lives in us all, where we're like, you know, shameless and, and cruel and we, we lie. And I think, um, that's the same in this though, you know, but yeah, letting yourself, letting parts of yourself be exposed is always a bit like, oh, fuck, you know, I, you know, I'm trying to hide that. And then you're like, now it's on film forever. So I always have this weird conflict where I'm like, I don't really want to do that. And then I'm like, but I'm gonna do it anyway. You know what I mean?

• 13:43Sam Fragoso?

  This is the back and forth, the push and pull of your profession and what you've committed your life to.

• 13:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, man.

• 13:49Sam Fragoso?

  But also in some ways, this film interrogates this instinct, I think, a lot of us have, which is to hide our basic desires, our sexual inclinations.

• 14:01Speaker 02

  Hundred percent.

• 14:02Sam Fragoso?

  Didn't making the film make you reexamine how you move through the world?

• 14:07Speaker 02

  God, I'm always examining how I move through the world.

• 14:10Sam Fragoso?

  I feel like that's, I can feel that from you within seven minutes of talking.

• 14:14Speaker 02

  Yeah. I think I reckon with it by realizing that's sometimes what is necessary to, to do, to be in film and to do, to be a part of like, interest in cinema, you know, like I love to be a part of that. And you often don't get the opportunity to really dig into stuff that's, that's, that's real and human and strange and fascinating. And when you do, it's, it's, um, it's a joy. So I'll let that be the thing that leaves me with it, you know, rather than like this ickiness, I let it just be fondness.

• 14:52Sam Fragoso?

  I think there's a clear gap between how people move through the world and how people move through comment sections online, because I don't know if you're aware. But people are very excited.

• 15:03Speaker 02

  What about?

• 15:04Sam Fragoso?

  About you and your performance in this film. Have you, have you read some of these comments?

• 15:10Speaker 02

  No, I'm, I'm, I'm off Instagram. I don't go on my account.

• 15:15Sam Fragoso?

  Okay.

• 15:15Speaker 02

  So I don't.

• 15:16Sam Fragoso?

  Here's some for you. Do you want to read these?

• 15:17Speaker 02

  Fucking hell. Harris Dickinson could tell me to bark and I'd ask how loud.

• 15:25Speaker 02

  The Baby Got trailer made me reactivate my field account.

• 15:29Sam Fragoso?

  The fact that you're whispering these two is gonna, gonna be a lot for people.

• 15:32Speaker 02

  Santa won't be the only one coming on Christmas.

• 15:37Speaker 02

  Oh, now I just got a horrible image of Santa Claus.

• 15:40Sam Fragoso?

  Coming?

• 15:41Speaker 02

  Coming.

• 15:42Sam Fragoso?

  On Christmas?

• 15:43Speaker 02

  All over me. Milk sales after this movie drops. Sorry.

• 15:49Sam Fragoso?

  Milk sales?

• 15:49Speaker 02

  You gave me the comments, Sam.

• 15:51Sam Fragoso?

  I, I did. We do bottom up reporting here.

• 15:54Speaker 02

  Filth, lowbrow.

• 15:55Sam Fragoso?

  Very lowbrow. I, I also want to apologize to your mother and father who, who may be listening and.

• 16:01Speaker 02

  My mom loves it. My mom went to see the film the other day. She was fine.

• 16:06Sam Fragoso?

  You know, your mom in one interview for you said, uh, that I always thought he was going to become an actor because he always wanted to dress up as someone different.

• 16:15Speaker 02

  Who the fuck is my mom talking to?

• 16:18Sam Fragoso?

  Besides me, I don't know. But growing up in the east London suburb of Walthamstow, the son of a hairdresser and a boxer turned social worker, who did you dress up as?

• 16:29Speaker 02

  Anyone I could, I think. I, I, I think also she means I role played as different versions of myself. I tried a lot of stuff. I mean, like all kids do, I'm not putting myself on a pedestal here, but I, I, I did, you know, I tried every hobby. I, I tried different sports and nothing quite.

• 16:47Sam Fragoso?

  You were skating?

• 16:48Speaker 02

  I was skating. Skating was the thing that, that, that stuck. Skating was a, a long time thing, but the dressing up, any, like Halloween was like any, you know, any chance to be someone in a way was always like, wow. So I think maybe that was it. And then you get older and you're like, ah, okay. I just enjoyed like not being myself for a bit.

• 17:08Sam Fragoso?

  Why do you think that is?

• 17:09Speaker 02

  Because it's boring to be me.

• 17:11Sam Fragoso?

  Really?

• 17:11Speaker 02

  Just mean, it's more interesting to pop into other, other things, isn't it?

• 17:16Sam Fragoso?

  I, I think it's true. I mean, I started going to the movies obsessively as a teenager.

• 17:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 17:22Sam Fragoso?

  And I heard that you and your friends would photocopy your passports and then put different ages on them to get into R rated movies.

• 17:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 17:31Sam Fragoso?

  Is that true?

• 17:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It seemed like something, I don't know who kind of set the trend.

• 17:38Sam Fragoso?

  It's a great idea.

• 17:39Speaker 02

  But it worked and no one ever questioned it. It was like, we just did it on paint. We'd bowl down to the local multiplex. It wasn't like a.

• 17:49Sam Fragoso?

  What did you say, bowl down?

• 17:50Speaker 02

  Bowl down, you know?

• 17:51Sam Fragoso?

  What's that?

• 17:51Speaker 02

  Bit of a pep in your step.

• 17:52Sam Fragoso?

  Oh.

• 17:53Speaker 02

  You'd sort of, you know, that age where you sort of want to just get into a bit of, yeah, a bit of trouble, kick something, you know, spit off a bridge, that kind of, that's the bowling about, you know?

• 18:01Sam Fragoso?

  You say spit off a bridge?

• 18:02Speaker 02

  You know what I mean? Like, show your bum off a bridge, that kind of energy, like.

• 18:07Sam Fragoso?

  Well, I did a lot of that.

• 18:08Speaker 02

  Exactly, yeah. It's like, it's the stuff that dreams are made of.

• 18:15Sam Fragoso?

  So when you're at the movies, tell me what film did for you as a young teenager?

• 18:23Speaker 02

  Well, it's, it's like a typical answer, but I would, I would always come out and I'd want to be in that world, you know? I'd always be obsessed with that world and I'd, and I'd always go home and watch behind the scenes. I loved behind the scenes stuff. I still do. And I was just fascinated by the, um,

• 18:41Speaker 02

  by the craft of it, man. But also, yeah, like, I was like, wow, this is, there's this whole, like, community going on. There's this whole, like, circus going on and we all get to, we all get to go and witness it and be a part of it and pay money and watch it. But past that, there's a whole little world going on. And that's why I want to sort of, that's what fascinated me. But, um, I wasn't as a kid, you know, I wasn't watching sophisticated films as a kid. I was just watching whatever was on.

• 19:07Sam Fragoso?

  But as a teenager, didn't you kind of recreate a little community with you and your friends making short films on YouTube?

• 19:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, I, I had a show, I had a sketch show that I used to put weekly videos out on YouTube.

• 19:22Sam Fragoso?

  What was that called?

• 19:24Speaker 02

  It's really bad and embarrassing. It's, it's called, it was called, it's called God's Entertainment.

• 19:31Sam Fragoso?

  God's Entertainment?

• 19:32Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 19:34Speaker 02

  Arrogant.

• 19:34Sam Fragoso?

  Now we have the title of our podcast.

• 19:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Wasn't even religious. I don't know why that, why that, it was like, ah, this is what, this is, this is, this will work. And no one really watched it. There was like a few, few sort of lads at school that would be like, oh, you're gonna upload this week. Be like, yeah, you know, just waiting on the footage, you know what I mean? That sort of thing.

• 19:53Sam Fragoso?

  But isn't that kind of all you need?

• 19:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. One person.

• 19:56Sam Fragoso?

  You only need a few people going like.

• 19:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 19:58Sam Fragoso?

  Hey, it's Thursday. Where is this?

• 20:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, where is it? You know, you're not doing it this week? And also people, I knew that it was cause of, because people wanted to do, people wanted to be in it. And so I never struggled to get people to be in it.

• 20:10Sam Fragoso?

  Now, you weren't acting in them. You were just directing them.

• 20:12Speaker 02

  I was never in them.

• 20:13Sam Fragoso?

  Right.

• 20:13Speaker 02

  I was never in them.

• 20:14Sam Fragoso?

  What, a DSLR camera?

• 20:15Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 20:16Sam Fragoso?

  And you were making these videos?

• 20:17Speaker 02

  Well, first I had like a Handycam, like a Flipcam with like, you know, the old sort of Sony things. And then I got DSLR when I got a bit older, saved up and got, got a little DSLR, yeah. And I knew that the feeling I got making them and doing them and putting them out was like, oh yeah, I need to keep doing this. Because then it got to a point where I was, I sort of graduated from juvenile comedy sketch and I tried to start making dramas. And I was making these really like heavy hitting dramas as like a 14 year old. And I would like cast my mom in them and they were like really like extreme themes and.

• 20:52Sam Fragoso?

  What would they be about?

• 20:53Speaker 02

  Well, one of them was about, you know, an addict that lived in the forest and then he sort of reunited with his mom. And one of them was about a brother taking care of his disabled brother. One of them was about a guy that thought he was seeing someone, but really he was like hallucinating and he was close to death. I don't know why they were such dramatic lofty themes, but I enjoyed doing it. And people seemed to support them and like them and whatever.

• 21:22Sam Fragoso?

  Why do you think you were drawn to those kinds of stories? Did they feel real to your lived experience or did they feel like something you liked watching?

• 21:32Speaker 02

  I think like, I, I was lucky that my mom and my dad put me on to certain, you know, as I started to get a bit older, they would show me like some Mike Lee stuff and some Ken Loach bits and Shane Meadows bits. And so I thought like, oh wow, this like social realism stuff is. It's cool, man. It's heavy hitting. It's like people I know. It's like people around me. I feel like in my, in my world that I could relate to. And I don't know, just that kind of storytelling and those kind of characters were interesting to me. I think I was coming up against a lot of stuff that I didn't relate to. So I was like, well, I'm probably gonna just try and find my own little way in this.

• 22:06Sam Fragoso?

  You know, that community part that you keep coming back to.

• 22:09Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 22:09Sam Fragoso?

  You found it with skating.

• 22:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 22:11Sam Fragoso?

  You found it with making these videos. Did you not find that at home as much?

• 22:17Speaker 02

  I did. I had, I had a very like.

• 22:20Sam Fragoso?

  You have a few siblings, right?

• 22:21Speaker 02

  I've got siblings and they're amazing. Like we're all close and that, but I mean, we, you know, it's normal, like brother stuff. My brother used to beat me up, but like it's normal. Like we're best friends now. It's fine.

• 22:31Sam Fragoso?

  You're the youngest, right?

• 22:32Speaker 02

  I'm the youngest and, and we were, we're all very close, but.

• 22:35Sam Fragoso?

  On behalf of all eldest siblings, I'm, I'm very sorry.

• 22:38Speaker 02

  Are you an older sibling?

• 22:39Sam Fragoso?

  I'm the eldest, yeah.

• 22:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. I think he feels guilty for it now. He's so nice to me now, which is funny because I'm like, yeah, bastard.

• 22:47Sam Fragoso?

  He probably just saw you in the iron cloth.

• 22:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh, no, I had, I had the community home, but I was looking for something else. I was looking for a, a different kind of belonging, like a different, a different thing. But even skating, skating doesn't accept you easily. Skating's a hard crowd. It's like, it's, there can be brutal skaters, horrible.

• 23:08Sam Fragoso?

  Not to over index on class, but I think it's worth holding that you do differ from a lot of the actors that come out of London. I mean, you didn't go to Oxbridge, you didn't go to drama school. You worked odd blue collar jobs, starting at the age of 14.

• 23:24Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 23:25Sam Fragoso?

  You grew up in a home that bordered on a motorway, which made it easy for burglars and their escape routes. They stole some of your cars. They broke into your home. They threatened your mother at one point. So when you're at university for one year, taking English and film classes at 16. Did you feel comfortable at school? Did you find community there?

• 23:46Speaker 02

  No, no, not one bit. I didn't enjoy it at all, really. Um, and it wasn't necessarily because of the students. It was, it was, it was the teachers. I had a really strange encounter with one of my teachers. He was my, he was my English literature language teacher and he was also my film teacher. And I think that, you know, I was relatively like slow at school. Like, I don't think I had the same like desire to learn as I do now at school. I was just like dreaming, whatever, daydreaming. And I wanted to do what I wanted to do in my own way and school. The structure of it wasn't necessarily for me, but I, I don't know. I don't think I, I, I thrived in that environment and I'm not blaming anyone for it, but it just wasn't for me.

• 24:28Sam Fragoso?

  What did the teacher do?

• 24:30Speaker 02

  Okay, so he, I've kind of been guarded around this because for years I've been like, oh, I don't want to, but, but fuck him. Like, he wasn't very nice. Like, he, he used to kind of like intellectually humiliate me in front of everyone. And he'd read out my results and he'd be very strict and very kind of cruel to me. And I would react by, you know, instead of working harder, I would just be more aggressive and I would, I would be more badly behaved to him because I just didn't like him. But what was, the problem was is that he was my film teacher and he was my English teacher. So it was just, both lessons were awful.

• 25:04Sam Fragoso?

  You couldn't get away from him?

• 25:05Speaker 02

  I couldn't get away from him. And, and now I look back and I think, okay, he was, he was someone who was perhaps frustrated that he was teaching sixteen year olds when he maybe wanted to be in film.

• 25:18Sam Fragoso?

  Would he do that to other students?

• 25:19Speaker 02

  No. And that was the other thing. After a while, I started to notice everyone else pick up on it. And would say things like, what was his problem with you? Why does he do this? And I do have a little bit of a theory and I don't wanna, I, I, at this, this was at the time where I was still making stuff outside of class, but.

• 25:37Sam Fragoso?

  A kid who's showing an active interest outside of school.

• 25:40Speaker 02

  Oh, I had, you know, when we got sent off to do group projects, I was the one that had all of the bits and bobs. You know, I had my own little mic and camera and I said, come on, guys, let's go and do it. I've got this. And, but I was never arrogant.

• 25:53Sam Fragoso?

  Yeah.

• 25:53Speaker 02

  Because I knew that I knew nothing.

• 25:55Sam Fragoso?

  Hmm.

• 25:55Speaker 02

  I knew that I had so much to learn. That's why I was excited about the prospect of it because I thought, wow, now I can go into an environment where everyone else is like me. I I can learn and push myself, but for some reason or other, he didn't like it.

• 26:09Sam Fragoso?

  What was your theory?

• 26:10Speaker 02

  Well, my theory was just that he didn't like that I was doing it on my own.

• 26:13Sam Fragoso?

  Hmm.

• 26:14Speaker 02

  He didn't like that I already had made an effort to do it. For some reason, he was like, slow down. You don't know anything, which is the wrong message. It's like, okay, you're actually really into this. How can I support you? And instead, he just humiliated me continuously, to the point where I said, you know, I'd go home and I'd be like, Mom, I'm not. I'm not going back in tomorrow. I'm done. And after a while, she said, you know, well, don't. That's it. Don't do it.

• 26:39Sam Fragoso?

  Can I ask you, when that happened in school and you're in between classes and you go to the bathroom? Or you have like a moment alone, like, how would you hold that?

• 26:51Speaker 02

  Um, well, I my last, I I remember my last day when I said, I'll never go back to his class. I squared up to him in the class. And it was horrible. I'm not a confrontational person. I'm not aggressive, but I squared up to him and I really, you know, I really wanted to hit him. I really wanted to smack him on. Do you know what I mean?

• 27:08Sam Fragoso?

  I do.

• 27:09Speaker 02

  And I've sort of used to fantasize about about like standing up to him in a way.

• 27:13Sam Fragoso?

  Hmm.

• 27:14Speaker 02

  Not about hurting him, but just standing up to him. And um, I don't know, I guess, I guess it gave me a bit of a chip on my shoulder.

• 27:22Sam Fragoso?

  Mm hmm.

• 27:22Speaker 02

  For a while, which I'm trying to work with or work on at least, because I always felt like I was sort of being like, all right, you know, I was a bit defensive and I had this sort of thing. So um, yeah, it's taking some time to get, get, get that free rid of off my shoulder.

• 27:40Sam Fragoso?

  You know, I've never shared this on the show, but I had a basketball coach around that same age, who was a little bit like that.

• 27:49Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 27:49Sam Fragoso?

  Who was just, I I was his punching bag.

• 27:52Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 27:52Sam Fragoso?

  And he kept pointing me out over and over and over. And to the point where my teammates were like, what did you do to this guy?

• 27:59Speaker 02

  Yeah. So you know about this?

• 28:01Sam Fragoso?

  I do. And it and it was a big reason why I soured on basketball for a while, which was my whole life.

• 28:06Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 28:07Sam Fragoso?

  Up until about fourteen. And it really broke me in a lot of ways.

• 28:13Sam Fragoso?

  And when I think about it now, I do wonder if it provided a fuel and an ambition.

• 28:20Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 28:20Sam Fragoso?

  Or are we just saying that so that we don't have to feel bad about the thing that happened to us?

• 28:25Speaker 02

  Well, I think, I do think it has given me a sense of like, purpose in a way, like, because I felt so inferior. I never wanted to feel that again. And it made me go and push myself in a new, in a new way. As soon as I left that environment, I thought, well, now I have my opportunity to like, explore things in a way and be inquisitive in a way that I feel comfortable with. So I like to think that we have used that in a positive, but do we just, yeah, do we just say that?

• 28:55Sam Fragoso?

  Or we just have to.

• 28:56Speaker 02

  Or we just have to.

• 28:56Sam Fragoso?

  Otherwise, it becomes just a permanent loss.

• 28:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, you got to win. There's a win there somewhere, isn't there?

• 29:03Sam Fragoso?

  The L on the record is tough. Yeah.

• 29:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. But it's common. I hear this all the time.

• 29:07Sam Fragoso?

  Yeah, I think it is common. But it's, it doesn't make it right.

• 29:11Speaker 02

  No, it doesn't make it right.

• 29:12Sam Fragoso?

  From that, you do leave university and you drop out. And it's this period after school that seems really formative for you, especially in the work you're starting to make as a writer-director. At seventeen, you were poised to join the military. Was structure something you felt like was missing from your life? Is that what you were looking for?

• 29:34Speaker 02

  Yeah, a little bit. I was looking for a little bit of purpose, maybe, in it, in the wrong way. I was, I was.

• 29:41Sam Fragoso?

  What do you mean in the wrong way?

• 29:42Speaker 02

  Well, I don't necessarily think the military would have given me that purpose, I now feel, but, or do I feel it? I don't know. But I'm like, but, but.

• 29:53Sam Fragoso?

  We're gonna work that out.

• 29:54Speaker 02

  We're gonna work that out. There was a sense of, how do I go and do this thing that gives me this sort of like, mission or like toughness? I can, you know, go and, I don't know why, I don't know what that is. I don't know.

• 30:06Sam Fragoso?

  You mentioned the male role models earlier in the beginning.

• 30:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 30:10Sam Fragoso?

  And you said that you would see certain types of masculinity, and then you'd see them fall down a peg and holding those contradictions for yourself.

• 30:18Speaker 02

  But I also think there was, there was something in, because I was in the Marine cadets for a long time, which is like a precursor to the actual Marines, when they sort of like help you prepare for that. And then a lot of people go on and enlist and whatever, but. I I enjoyed the the again, back to community. I enjoyed the idea of us all being together and being a part of something where I was just a little small cog. Do you know what I mean? I was just a small cog in a much bigger machine.

• 30:43Sam Fragoso?

  Mm hmm.

• 30:43Speaker 02

  And we'd all do it together and we'd all make the same sound and march and whatever. And but at a certain point, I was probably trying to suppress the creative side of me.

• 30:52Sam Fragoso?

  Why?

• 30:53Speaker 02

  I I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I thought that wasn't worthy of like a I thought that wasn't like a worthy endeavor.

• 31:02Sam Fragoso?

  Hmm.

• 31:02Speaker 02

  So I was like, no, I won't do that. I stopped acting for a bit. And then I was like, what am I doing? I'm I'm I'm also I was I couldn't escape it because even in the Marine Cadets, I was being asked to role play as the as the victim for the first aid training. So the the sergeant must have been like, no, you just just just act.

• 31:20Sam Fragoso?

  We we explain that for people who don't know about that.

• 31:22Speaker 02

  So there was first aid training that that a lot of these cadets would do and you'd go on weekends away. And I got asked to be um the like victim on the floor pretending I would have I'd go through various states of like nausea, dizziness and confusion. And I'd pretend, oh, I just had my legs shot or something.

• 31:44Sam Fragoso?

  So even the military was like, look.

• 31:46Speaker 02

  Dude, you're you're an actor.

• 31:48Sam Fragoso?

  You're just you're not meant to do this.

• 31:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, like you won't cut your hair.

• 31:51Sam Fragoso?

  Even they cast you as an actor.

• 31:53Speaker 02

  Yes. And I think at that point, I was like, OK, yeah.

• 31:56Sam Fragoso?

  You made this short film two thousand and three.

• 31:58Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 31:59Sam Fragoso?

  And it's about this kid who's going off to war.

• 32:01Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 32:02Sam Fragoso?

  And a father who has a bit of a drinking problem and sorting out how he wants to move forward. When you're working at that hotel in East London, right around the time you get that script for Beach Rats. What was going on in your life? Like, what did it look like? Where did you think you were and where did you want to go at that time?

• 32:22Speaker 02

  Well, I'd been working at that hotel for coming up to two or three years and I sort of I had a weird little. Enjoyment out of it. There was some structure there. There was a nice little group of people, but I knew I didn't want to end up there.

• 32:35Sam Fragoso?

  Hmm.

• 32:36Speaker 02

  They were trying to get me to go for the like duty manager role and I was like, no, I don't want to do that. I was living with my mom. I was, you know, I was living a very normal like, you know, smoke weed in the forest and walk my dog and then I'd do the same again. It was like a very basic existence, but underneath it, I was just want, I just wanted to act. I was auditioning and trying to get stuff. And um, trying to write, but having to sustain myself.

• 33:03Sam Fragoso?

  Were these experiences that informed this feature film that you just finished making?

• 33:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, in some ways. I mean, I think the feature film is, is, is about another thing entirely, but it's also comprised of people and characters and stories I've sort of met and encountered along the way.

• 33:21Sam Fragoso?

  The story is about, and we can talk about it at a later date when it's actually out, but the story is about a drifter incapable of structure and finding difficulties participating in society. Is that a fair description?

• 33:33Speaker 02

  It's, it's fair. It's set against the backdrop of homelessness in London. It's about, uh, you know, I think addiction and cyclical behavior was something that was like close in, in friends, family, people around me, people in my community. I resonated with like how, how easily people fall between the cracks in, in society and it kind of touched a nerve in that sense. And then I guess just before the pandemic, I started working in my local community, just trying to help out. I was like, okay, I want to do something. I want to help. I want to lend a hand. But I don't really know how. So I just went down to this local community project, started helping out, doing very, very minimal stuff in the grand scheme of things, you know, tiny part of a much bigger cause. And then

• 34:19Speaker 02

  I started working with Under One Sky, which are a charity in London that are an amazing organization. Grassroots, boots on the ground, volunteer-led, that really focus on like, okay, practical ways to help people that are in vulnerable positions going out, food, pants, socks, welfare checks, street link, you know, just normal chats with them. And then I was like, okay, how do I make a story about someone in this, trying to exit these circumstances, that isn't just your archetypical, social, realistic, because I also think that there's room for comedy and like humanity, you know, not to be totally like bleak with it. I think, you know, there's a chance to show the levity of it as well. So they have a more rounded view in cinema.

• 35:07Sam Fragoso?

  After the break, more from actor Harris Dickinson.

• 35:16Sam Fragoso?

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• 36:47Sam Fragoso?

  Where you do land is a really interesting place after Beach Rats, like, taking roles in movies by some of the best filmmakers we have. I'm thinking about that opening scene from Triangle of Sadness, where you're at dinner.

• 37:02Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, the bill scene.

• 37:03Sam Fragoso?

  Yeah, the bill. Why don't we take a listen to that for a second? This is from Triangle of Sadness.

• 37:11Speaker 02

  You said you were gonna pay for food today.

• 37:15Speaker 02

  At the end of the meal, you said, "Thank you. Tomorrow I'll get it."

• 37:22Speaker 04

  Sure, but then you picked up the bill and I thought you wanted to pay, so I said, "Thank you, honey."

• 37:26Speaker 02

  Okay, but it was there for such a long time. I mean...

• 37:29Speaker 04

  I didn't see it.

• 37:33Speaker 02

  You didn't see it?

• 37:39Speaker 02

  No, it's... When you say...

• 37:44Speaker 02

  When you say "thank you, honey" like that, I mean, you don't really give me an option but to pay.

• 37:51Sam Fragoso?

  Since making the film, how have you squared away that character in your proximity to it?

• 38:00Speaker 02

  That's a good question, Sam. Do you know what's interesting when you play a character is people, when you're dealing with the buildup to it or the surrounding time around a release, "I was here in L.A. or America," and someone came up to me and was like, "There's a need for people to feel like they know you based on what they've seen." It's a common thing, whatever, but he was like,

• 38:23Speaker 02

  "Oh, dude. Oh, yeah. I saw your movie." I was like, "Oh, okay. Cool." He was like, "Yeah, my friend liked it, but, um, yeah, I don't know." I was like, "Oh, okay, so you didn't enjoy it?" He was like, "Well, my friend did, but, yeah, my buddy liked it." And sort of felt the need to, you know, give me his honesty, which I like, because I sometimes refer to that, then some are going, "Oh, it's amazing. You're great, blah, blah." But then, as I was in the car putting the shop in the way, he was like, "So, dude, what about the end? What was the end?" And I'm like, "Well, so you're interested. You wanna know about the plot, you know, but you also wanted to tell me that you wanted to say..." Fuck you, but also you wanted to know more. So I'm intere- I was interested in that as well.

• 39:06Speaker 02

  I was interested in the way people interact with you based on what they've seen or based on what they think you are. And I think Carl was relatively like, you know, wasn't the sharpest tool in the box. So for a while, I think people were sort of like,

• 39:23Speaker 02

  so that's fun.

• 39:25Sam Fragoso?

  The director of that film, Reuben Osland, said, "On set, Harris was completely smooth and non-neurotic during the shooting. I don't think I saw him even irritated once."

• 39:37Speaker 02

  Interesting. When did he say that?

• 39:39Sam Fragoso?

  In an interview two years ago.

• 39:41Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 39:41Sam Fragoso?

  Does that seem true to you and how you work on sets?

• 39:46Speaker 02

  I guess on set, yeah, I'm not like easily flappable.

• 39:49Sam Fragoso?

  Yeah, you don't seem flappable.

• 39:51Speaker 02

  No.

• 39:52Sam Fragoso?

  I've tried.

• 39:53Speaker 02

  Have you? No, you haven't. I, that was a fun experience for me. I think there was a lot of people that didn't, that struggled, you know, he does a lot of takes. And so I think people struggled with the strenuous nature of that. But I was like, well, let's keep going. Let's do more. But um, that's, I probably just hid it well, you know?

• 40:13Sam Fragoso?

  Are you good at that?

• 40:14Speaker 02

  Hiding it?

• 40:15Sam Fragoso?

  Mm hmm.

• 40:15Speaker 02

  Yeah. Just shove it down.

• 40:17Sam Fragoso?

  Is that a British thing?

• 40:18Speaker 02

  Just shove it away, be polite, smile, get on with your day. No, I, I don't know. I'm trying to get better at that, man. Like, I'm trying to get better and not, do you know, you know, you know, we're, we're in this world where you sort of, you tend to think it's, you're gonna have to just be like, always nice, best version of yourself. It's like, sometimes you don't feel good. Like, sometimes you don't wanna be Mr. Showman. Do you know what I mean?

• 40:41Sam Fragoso?

  I do know.

• 40:42Speaker 02

  And that's okay, like.

• 40:44Sam Fragoso?

  It's kind of the whole premise of the show.

• 40:46Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 40:46Sam Fragoso?

  I don't really want anyone to be anything they're not.

• 40:49Speaker 02

  No, and it's stupid because it's, it leads people down a

• 40:53Sam Fragoso?

  Winding road. The winding road.

• 40:54Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 40:54Sam Fragoso?

  I'm thinking about these new projects of yours, both Baby Girl and The Iron Claw, which I do wanna talk about for a second because I'm thinking about the physicality of that film and the sexuality of Baby Girl. Cause you said once, love scenes and fighting scenes have a different level of absurdity. How do you begin approaching either of those?

• 41:20Speaker 02

  Fight scenes and love scenes are similar because they're choreographed and you have people to facilitate it. So you get an opportunity to, yeah, just plan it out. I mean, the idea of a fight scene is kind of comical when you think about it because you've got two people that are like, also, there's an ego thing. Wrestling was, Ironclaw was great because we were wrestling and you got a whole community of wrestlers helping us to like, look great, you know? And I grew up loving wrestling. So for me, that was just like fun and silly at the same time. But you have to know, like with intimate scenes, you have to know when you're uncomfortable and for what reason you're uncomfortable, like if the environment's not right and if the crew are not helping you in a way, you know, if

• 42:05Speaker 02

  they're like, not making it a safe space, then it's going to be very difficult to tap into something half interesting.

• 42:13Sam Fragoso?

  And sex scenes, how do you approach that?

• 42:14Speaker 02

  The same way. I mean, I started out doing something like Beatrice was quite sexual and we didn't have an intimacy coordinator, but somehow it was all fine and there was, it was smooth. But later years, we've had intimacy coordinators on things, which is incredibly helpful because you've got someone there to facilitate it and oversee it. But it's vulnerable. It's always vulnerable and it's always like slightly strange and yeah, it's not my favorite thing to do, but.

• 42:42Sam Fragoso?

  It's very bizarre.

• 42:43Speaker 02

  It's bizarre, yeah.

• 42:44Sam Fragoso?

  The disconnect between watching them and directing them, the idea that it's approximating anything resembling reality, it's really hard. I think in your case and in Baby Girl's case, the thing that you two really hold is that discomfort and the kind of clumsiness that comes about any sexual encounter.

• 43:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think that's important for it though as well because we've seen so much sex on screen. It's like so smooth and swift and charming. And I think we do need to see that like fumbling, awkward, ugly version of it, you know, because it's all of, it's in all of our experiences.

• 43:23Sam Fragoso?

  Yes. Why don't we, why don't we take a listen to what that early flirtation and kind of awkwardness sounds like? This is a scene from the new film Baby Girl between you playing the intern and your boss played by Nicole Kidman. Here it is.

• 43:40Speaker 02

  Sorry.

• 43:43Speaker 03

  Seven minutes.

• 43:45Speaker 02

  Ten, I think.

• 43:48Speaker 02

  Thanks for making the time.

• 43:51Speaker 03

  I was forced.

• 43:53Speaker 02

  What?

• 43:54Speaker 03

  Um, what?

• 43:57Speaker 02

  I didn't say anything. Why did you want to meet here?

• 44:00Speaker 03

  You don't like this room?

• 44:01Speaker 02

  No, no, I like the room. It's a nice room. It's very... Got a nice vibe. I think it's... It's soundproof, which is good.

• 44:10Speaker 03

  If I were you, I'd hurry up.

• 44:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, of course, all right.

• 44:16Speaker 02

  How did it start?

• 44:23Speaker 03

  What?

• 44:25Speaker 02

  The warehouse automation dream.

• 44:26Speaker 03

  That is your question?

• 44:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 44:29Speaker 03

  Google it.

• 44:30Speaker 02

  No, I just wanted to hear from you.

• 44:31Speaker 03

  Why?

• 44:32Speaker 02

  Because the internet's not reliable.

• 44:37Speaker 03

  I wanted to automate repetitive tasks and give people their time back by limiting...

• 44:41Speaker 02

  Power-hungry personalities?

• 44:43Speaker 03

  You think that's what I am?

• 44:44Speaker 02

  No. No.

• 44:48Speaker 02

  I think the opposite.

• 44:50Speaker 03

  You think I don't like power?

• 44:51Speaker 02

  No, I think you like to be told what to do.

• 44:57Speaker 02

  Sorry, I didn't mean to...

• 45:03Speaker 02

  Sorry, that was inappropriate.

• 45:07Sam Fragoso?

  You know, you said earlier about purpose.

• 45:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 45:10Sam Fragoso?

  That you had found it with acting and then you second-guessed yourself and you said, "Well, maybe. I don't... Actually, I don't know."

• 45:16Speaker 02

  Well, it sounds pretentious to sit here and go, "I found my purpose."

• 45:20Sam Fragoso?

  Let's move it back down to a less pretentious place.

• 45:23Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 45:24Sam Fragoso?

  Where are you at with this path you've chosen? It seems like something you're grappling with a little bit.

• 45:31Speaker 02

  Well, I... I spent... I don't know, man. Like, I spent so many years being like, just wanting to do this and get in and work and work and I just... You know, I worked a long time and I was away from home a lot. And then at some point, I was like, "Actually, I don't know if this is my only purpose."

• 45:49Sam Fragoso?

  Hmm.

• 45:49Speaker 02

  "I don't know if this is what's gonna, like, fulfill me entirely." I also really care about family and, like, quality time with my family and my friends and...

• 46:00Speaker 02

  That's important to me, like actually like getting to experience that properly, meaningfully. And all of the stuff around it is just like, ah, you know, I could take it or leave it. I'm so, so lucky that I get to such a small percentage of people that get to do this as a job. And I'm one of them, so I'm never a day goes by where I'm not fucking grateful for that. It's such a cool thing to be a part of, but equally I have other things I want to do. Hence why I've tried to make a film, whether it's awful or average or good, whatever. And that's, that's nice. That's cool. That's fun.

• 46:38Sam Fragoso?

  Where have you landed on your movie?

• 46:40Speaker 02

  What do you mean?

• 46:41Sam Fragoso?

  Well, bad, awful.

• 46:43Speaker 02

  I'm not gonna say what I think it is. I'm proud of it. Yeah, I'm proud of it.

• 46:46Sam Fragoso?

  To finish it is like incredibly commendable thing.

• 46:51Speaker 02

  Thanks, man. I am proud of it. Whatever people think of it will be beyond my control. And I'll, I'll just be grateful I got to make it.

• 46:58Sam Fragoso?

  Before we go, we talked about this movie you've directed that will maybe come out next year, hopefully.

• 47:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, next year.

• 47:06Sam Fragoso?

  I heard you say in one interview that you quote, "Think about life in a very algorithmic way." When we think about the equation, I'm gonna stick with the math metaphor here.

• 47:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 47:15Sam Fragoso?

  And what's next for you? I feel like you've been here, there and everywhere, working eight days a week. You basically have a ticket to ride. And I just want to know, as you watch the wheels of your life go round and round, is there a role you've been imagining?

• 47:33Speaker 02

  You're so bloody poetic.

• 47:38Speaker 02

  And I know what you're getting at.

• 47:43Speaker 02

  And I would love nothing more to imagine further.

• 47:47Sam Fragoso?

  And would he be the one you would imagine if you had to imagine one of the four options?

• 47:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, of course.

• 47:55Sam Fragoso?

  And do we think the imagining is close to becoming a reality?

• 48:00Speaker 02

  That only time will tell.

• 48:02Sam Fragoso?

  Right. And your favorite Beatles album is what?

• 48:09Speaker 02

  That's a beautiful way to round up that. But I have nothing to say.

• 48:15Sam Fragoso?

  It's the end of the button.

• 48:16Speaker 02

  It's the end of the button.

• 48:17Sam Fragoso?

  Okay, I have a thing to leave us with because we got to go pretty soon.

• 48:21Speaker 02

  Really? It's gone so quick.

• 48:24Sam Fragoso?

  I don't know if you saw, but the poet Nikki Giovanni passed away recently and we had her on the show in 2021. And she said this thing I wanted to bring to you and just see where it landed. She said, "The composers I know all spend time alone. They sing to themselves. It's wonderful because they would never have done that. They would never hear those sounds if they had been going around and out. Actors are used to being around so many people that they lose track of who they are because they're always trying to be somebody else. But we who write, we're just trying to capture what it is that we see."

• 49:03Speaker 02

  I loved that. Solitude is important.

• 49:06Sam Fragoso?

  Yeah, I was thinking, I wondered as we go where that lands with you in this next chapter and what you want for yourself.

• 49:13Speaker 02

  I am a little bit reclusive. I could be pretty content on my own and I have to battle with that because it's not always the most sociable thing. And my partner says the same. But you know what's interesting about that poem I was talking about? You know, the Bukowski poem, it's like time and light and space. It's like he talks about, that's so beautiful, but I want to get that as well. But he talks about how like one day having a space and the light. And it's like, oh, boy, I'm going to be someone. And it's that same thing where we sort of think that we need a certain thing to create a certain thing. Have you got it?

• 49:51Sam Fragoso?

  Yeah, why don't you read it?

• 49:53Speaker 02

  So the poem goes, it's called "Air and Light and Time and Space." So as you know, I've either had a family, a job, something has always been in the way. But now I've sold my house, I've found this place, a large studio. You see the space and the light. For the first time in my life, I'm going to have a place and the time to create. No, baby, if you're gonna create, you're gonna create whether you work sixteen hours a day in a coal mine. Or you're gonna create in a small room with three children while you're on welfare. You're gonna create with part of your mind and your body blown away. You're gonna create blind, crippled, demented. You're gonna create with a cat crawling up your back while the whole city trembles in earthquakes. Bombardment, flood and fire.

• 50:38Speaker 02

  Air and light and time and space have nothing to do with it. And don't create anything except maybe a longer life to find new excuses for. Yeah.

• 50:50Speaker 02

  So, yeah.

• 50:52Sam Fragoso?

  What about that? What are you thinking about?

• 50:55Speaker 02

  Well, I just, you just made, you, you made me think about it when you spoke about like actors in solitude and what we think we need. I think certain people have a that run towards other energies in order to feed themselves and I'm sort of somewhere in the middle. I don't know about you, but I, I love people and socializing, but I also need huge amounts of time on my own to kind of recoup and um I don't know, that, that poem in particular is, is more about the idea that creation and like the idea of like bourgeoisie creation is, is like the ultimate goal and I need this thing or this spot in order to fulfill me and eventually.

• 51:40Sam Fragoso?

  At the right time, at the right place, under the right conditions.

• 51:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm gonna be, yeah. I always used to think, oh god, like when I have this amazing place to, to prep for a role and really it's like I'm prepping when I'm in the train going into town, you know, I'm actually not sat at a desk doing this like incredibly studious like with a beautiful flow of light coming in and a soft piano in the background. It's like it doesn't, doesn't go like that, you know, you, you come up with shit and all types of scenarios and you, you also, you get fed by things as well, right? Like I actually get fed by like confrontation sometimes on the, in the streets, you know what I mean? Like if someone's rude to you, so also.

• 52:20Sam Fragoso?

  If we were to do this again in five years.

• 52:22Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 52:24Sam Fragoso?

  What do you hope for?

• 52:28Speaker 02

  That my hair is as long as yours.

• 52:30Sam Fragoso?

  That's a bad wish.

• 52:32Speaker 02

  Because it's gorgeous.

• 52:32Sam Fragoso?

  Thank you.

• 52:35Speaker 02

  I don't know about you, but I often feel very, I feel a restlessness.

• 52:41Sam Fragoso?

  Yeah.

• 52:41Speaker 02

  And I wish I didn't have that so much. I just want to be able to like.

• 52:45Sam Fragoso?

  It's a curse.

• 52:46Speaker 02

  You feel like that?

• 52:47Sam Fragoso?

  Yes, all, yes, every day.

• 52:50Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 52:50Sam Fragoso?

  So hopefully five years from now.

• 52:52Speaker 02

  We're both a little less restless.

• 52:54Sam Fragoso?

  Just the hair, enough to keep it interesting.

• 52:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 52:56Sam Fragoso?

  You need a bit.

• 52:57Speaker 02

  Drives you.

• 52:58Sam Fragoso?

  The hair distracting.

• 52:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, just a touch, yeah.

• 53:01Sam Fragoso?

  Well.

• 53:01Speaker 02

  Tip you over.

• 53:02Sam Fragoso?

  I have thoroughly enjoyed this.

• 53:04Speaker 02

  Likewise, I hope so. It's been lovely. Thank you so much, man.

• 53:08Sam Fragoso?

  Congratulations on the movies and I'll see you in five years or before that.

• 53:13Speaker 02

  Thanks a lot, man.

• 53:15Sam Fragoso?

  Harris Dickinson, a pleasure. All right.

• 53:18Speaker 02

  Lovely, man.

• 53:19Sam Fragoso?

  Is that all right?

• 53:19Speaker 02

  Lovely. Thank you so much. Great chat.

• 53:52Sam Fragoso?

  And that's our show. If you enjoyed today's episode with Harris, be sure to leave us five stars on Spotify. You can review the program on Apple. You can share it on social media. All of this really does help our team continue making this program each and every Sunday. I want to give a special thanks this week to Donna Mills and the team at Tapestry London, A24, Rachel Holmes, and our guest today, Harris Dickinson. His new film, Baby Girl, is now playing in theaters across the country. To get a ticket at a theater near you, visit our website at talkeasypod.com. For more episodes like this one, I'd recommend our talks with Dev Patel, Sebastian Stan.

• 54:36Sam Fragoso?

  And Britt Marlin. To hear those and more Lemonada podcasts, listen on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you like to listen. You can also follow us on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, at Talk Easy Pod. Talk Easy is produced by Caroline Reebok. Our executive producer is Janix Bravo. Today's talk was edited by Lindsay Ellis and mixed by Andrew Bastola. Our music is by Dylan Peck. Our illustrations are by Chris Shannoy. Photographs today come from Julius Chu. Research assistance by Ben Eisen. I also want to thank our new team at Lemonada Media. We are happy to be here and excited

• 55:16Sam Fragoso?

  for a 2025. I'm Sam Fragoso. Thank you for listening to Talk Easy. We'll be back next week with a brand new episode. Until then, Happy New Years to you and yours. Stay safe and so long.

• 55:43Speaker 05

  I'm Dan Heath. On What It's Like to Be, I interview people about their jobs. Here's a married couple that drives a long haul truck together.

• 55:51Speaker 06

  We backed up and they loaded fresh dead rats.

• 55:54Speaker 05

  I mean, how many rats would you guess were back there?

• 55:57Speaker 06

  There were 32,000 pounds of them.

• 55:59Speaker 05

  32,000 pounds of frozen dead rats.

• 56:03Speaker 06

  That's it.

• 56:05Speaker 05

  Find out what it's like to be a long haul trucker, a couples therapist, or an FBI agent, all on the podcast What It's Like to Be.

• 56:13Speaker 07

  History gets written, then rewritten, sometimes by scholars correcting the record, sometimes by committees deciding what a generation of kids will and won't learn. The version that makes it into the textbook isn't always the only story. It's the one that won out. That's the kind of thing ground news was built for. It shows you how outlets across the spectrum tell the same story, side by side, so you can spot the shading for yourself. Ground news gives each outlet a factuality rating, so you know how much weight to give the source, and shows you who owns it, so you know what's behind it. The Nobel Peace Center called it "an excellent way to stay informed, avoid echo chambers, and expand your worldview."

• 57:00Speaker 07

  So go to groundnews.com/RC. That's G R O U N D N E W S dot com slash R C for 40% off unlimited access vantage plan. Get it yourself or gift it to someone who'd rather know than not. Use my link, groundnews.com/RC, so you get the discount and they know I sent you. If you're a fan of learning all sides of history, then Ground News is for you. One more time, groundnews.com/RC.