462 - We Own This Table

This week, Georgia covers the murder of Carol Morgan and Karen tells the story of French criminal Michel Vaujour.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  This is exactly right.

• 0:06Speaker 01

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• 0:37Speaker 02

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• 1:35Karen Kilgariff?

  Hello and welcome loudly.

• 1:39Georgia Hardstark?

  To my favorite murder.

• 1:40Karen Kilgariff?

  That's Georgia Hart-Stark.

• 1:42Georgia Hardstark?

  That's Karen Kilgariff.

• 1:43Karen Kilgariff?

  We are in 2025, 25 mode. God damn it.

• 1:48Georgia Hardstark?

  We are. This is like, not new to you. We've already done an episode in 2025, except we recorded that way back in the olden days.

• 1:56Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:57Georgia Hardstark?

  25 years ago in 2024.

• 1:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, for us, it was last year.

• 2:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 2:02Karen Kilgariff?

  We tricked you.

• 2:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 2:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Sorry.

• 2:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Sorry. We're back after a fucking month-long vacay.

• 2:07Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh my god.

• 2:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Senses are overloaded.

• 2:11Karen Kilgariff?

  It's very intense in here.

• 2:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, the contour is contouring.

• 2:14Karen Kilgariff?

  My sleeves are down over my hands like Jennifer Love Hewitt.

• 2:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Cute.

• 2:19Karen Kilgariff?

  Cozy.

• 2:20Georgia Hardstark?

  What, how was your break?

• 2:21Karen Kilgariff?

  It was very nice. I spent a month on my dad's couch watching football. Well, he was watching football with the audio going directly into his hearing aids. So it was silent out in the room, so I could freely watch TikTok for eight hours straight.

• 2:37Georgia Hardstark?

  And you did?

• 2:38Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, I've learned a lot of new affirmations.

• 2:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 2:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Lot of dense bean salad recipes. Lot of watching people get their hair cut, my favorite.

• 2:49Georgia Hardstark?

  That's a good one.

• 2:49Karen Kilgariff?

  Did we talk about the man in Dubai?

• 2:51Georgia Hardstark?

  No.

• 2:52Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 2:53Georgia Hardstark?

  What does he do?

• 2:54Karen Kilgariff?

  He redoes women's hair. He like fixes their hair color and texture. And it is every time. And he also touches their hair so much that it's a little erotic. And it is one of my favorite things to watch. And it's just like women sitting there trying to explain why their hair looks the way it does, which haven't we all done that in the hairdresser's chair?

• 3:15Georgia Hardstark?

  It does this. There's a, I know. It does this one thing here.

• 3:18Karen Kilgariff?

  So I started doing these parts myself, and that's why this is orange and this is dark brown. Yeah, it's a lot of that. And then at the end, he doesn't ever do the trick where it's supposed to be a part two.

• 3:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, thank God. I fucking hate those.

• 3:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Always self-contained.

• 3:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 3:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Very respectful. And basically, at the end, he makes their hair look like natural, not dyed, whatever. And then he just kind of pulls his hands through it to show.

• 3:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Shimmery and shiny and silky.

• 3:44Karen Kilgariff?

  And how good the layers are. It is quality content.

• 3:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, MFM from Dubai, live. Our first live show in fucking 10 years or whatever is coming at you from Dubai.

• 3:57Karen Kilgariff?

  From his hair salon. We're both getting makeovers for, it's a 10-hour episode.

• 4:05Georgia Hardstark?

  I was getting our hair done.

• 4:06Karen Kilgariff?

  Get ready.

• 4:06Georgia Hardstark?

  I want extensions, like real, for real Mormon fucking TikTok mom extensions.

• 4:13Karen Kilgariff?

  And I'll get you a big brown felt hat to wear on top of those extensions.

• 4:16Georgia Hardstark?

  I need it.

• 4:16Karen Kilgariff?

  That's a little eh. Girl, you'll be ready for autumn.

• 4:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Mom talk.

• 4:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh my god. Mom talk.

• 4:25Karen Kilgariff?

  We've been away from work.

• 4:26Georgia Hardstark?

  I don't remember how to do this.

• 4:27Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, how, it's just chatting at the top, right?

• 4:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. Okay, I have two things I wrote down because I was like, you're gonna forget this by the time vacation's over.

• 4:35Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 4:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Recommendations. And I bet you've already watched it.

• 4:39Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 4:39Georgia Hardstark?

  But Vincent, I binged the fuck out of Ripley. Did you watch it?

• 4:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Which one was that?

• 4:46Karen Kilgariff?

  How's your neck?

• 4:48Georgia Hardstark?

  I actually threw my back out.

• 4:49Karen Kilgariff?

  Did you?

• 4:50Georgia Hardstark?

  The reason I did that is because this dress is so fucking tight.

• 4:52Karen Kilgariff?

  Seriously?

• 4:53Georgia Hardstark?

  It's just like barely fits, which is fine.

• 4:55Karen Kilgariff?

  You have to wear a truss for your back.

• 4:58Georgia Hardstark?

  What?

• 4:59Karen Kilgariff?

  I didn't know you had to wear a truss for your back.

• 5:01Georgia Hardstark?

  No, this dress barely fits.

• 5:06Georgia Hardstark?

  No, this vintage dress.

• 5:08Karen Kilgariff?

  This truss is so tight and I'm like, oh my god.

• 5:11Georgia Hardstark?

  That's so sad. Your back is so bad.

• 5:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Because the way you turned, I was like...

• 5:16Georgia Hardstark?

  No, it's this dress, there's not a moment to breathe in this dress. There's not a millimeter of a moment for me to breathe out in this dress.

• 5:22Karen Kilgariff?

  It's kind of acting as a truss.

• 5:24Georgia Hardstark?

  It is acting as a truss.

• 5:26Karen Kilgariff?

  Acting as.

• 5:27Georgia Hardstark?

  I guess.

• 5:28Karen Kilgariff?

  It is a really good dress though.

• 5:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Thank you, this is like, yeah, I'm obsessed with this.

• 5:31Karen Kilgariff?

  It's a pattern that only ever happened in 1967.

• 5:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 5:36Karen Kilgariff?

  Right?

• 5:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 5:36Karen Kilgariff?

  Or 71?

• 5:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Around there. If you go to our social media or our YouTube, you can see the dress.

• 5:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, yes. Look at her, look at her go with all her colors and her patterns.

• 5:47Georgia Hardstark?

  It barely fits.

• 5:48Karen Kilgariff?

  This is what Jan Brady wore to the winter formal.

• 5:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Ripley is the one with amazing Andrew Scott, the hot priest.

• 5:55Karen Kilgariff?

  Dude.

• 5:56Georgia Hardstark?

  And it's, it's based on like the, the, what's the called Ripley?

• 6:00Karen Kilgariff?

  The Wonderful Mr. Ripley.

• 6:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes.

• 6:01Karen Kilgariff?

  What was it? The, looking for the god, Mike, interruption. The talented Mr. Ripley.

• 6:06Georgia Hardstark?

  That's what we're not, that's the one word that doesn't get thrown around a lot here at My Favorite Murder.

• 6:11Karen Kilgariff?

  It's so beautiful, it's so compelling.

• 6:14Georgia Hardstark?

  It's so incredible.

• 6:15Karen Kilgariff?

  And if you're a kind of like state school dropout dummy like me who sees a black and white series and goes, I can't handle this, just hang on.

• 6:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Definitely, it's so fucking good.

• 6:26Karen Kilgariff?

  You won't believe your eyes.

• 6:27Georgia Hardstark?

  It's incredible, so I, we binged that and then... I have a book recommendation that I'm so in love with and so excited to talk about. It's an audiobook.

• 6:36Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 6:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Philomena Kunk.

• 6:38Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, Kunk on Earth, you've probably seen on Netflix. One of some of the funniest, like, some of the funniest hard jokes I've seen on TV.

• 6:47Georgia Hardstark?

  But in that dry English way.

• 6:48Karen Kilgariff?

  So dry and so she's just doesn't like anything.

• 6:51Georgia Hardstark?

  No.

• 6:51Karen Kilgariff?

  She doesn't approve of Jesus or Van Gogh or really anything.

• 6:55Georgia Hardstark?

  And doesn't understand it.

• 6:56Karen Kilgariff?

  Right.

• 6:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Is that her fault? No.

• 6:58Karen Kilgariff?

  It thinks she thinks it's all stupid.

• 6:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes, so the incredible Philomena Kunk, played by the incredible comedian Diane Morgan. Philomena Kunk has come out with an audiobook called The World According to Kunk. And it's a history of the world.

• 7:12Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 7:12Georgia Hardstark?

  It is so fucking hilarious that I scared the cats laughing so loud when I was listening to it.

• 7:17Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 7:18Georgia Hardstark?

  I can't, it's just so joyous. I can't recommend it enough.

• 7:21Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, you know what? I'll do a parallel off the cuff recommendation, and this is secondhand from my sister Laura. But she literally texted me last night because she was watching Nate Bargatze's comedy special. And she was like, I'm watching his comedy, because I told her, I'm like, you will love it and you will, it'll do it for you.

• 7:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 7:39Karen Kilgariff?

  Because she gets very stressed out watching comedy.

• 7:41Georgia Hardstark?

  I get it.

• 7:41Karen Kilgariff?

  As many of us do. I'm like, you'll love it, whatever. She texts me and she's like, I'm just sitting in my room laughing out loud.

• 7:47Georgia Hardstark?

  It's awesome.

• 7:48Karen Kilgariff?

  It's insane. So we were just talking about this earlier, like, if anybody deserves the massive success he is attaining right now, it's Nate Bargatze. He's one of the like nicest, coolest, he's exactly what he's like in his comedy act.

• 8:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 8:02Karen Kilgariff?

  I love the way he does comedy.

• 8:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, he's fucking hilarious. Also, like, how exciting is it to see fucking Nikki Glaser absolutely fucking killing it? I'm same, same with her. She's the exact same person onstage as she is in fucking person.

• 8:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 8:15Georgia Hardstark?

  She's so lovely. I get, I'm so excited.

• 8:17Karen Kilgariff?

  And so talented, like.

• 8:18Georgia Hardstark?

  So talented.

• 8:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Again, those hard jokes where it, some people make it very easy, but it's like, that's, that's the money right there and she is, that's her whole act and always has been. We got to see her one year at the High Plains Comedy Festival headlining this huge theater. And I just had never, I'd only ever seen her pieces and parts. And to watch her do an hour, however long she did, 30 minutes or something, it was just like, I was just so proud of her.

• 8:44Georgia Hardstark?

  She's great.

• 8:45Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 8:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Yay for her.

• 8:46Karen Kilgariff?

  Very cool. Um, I don't know, like, we're coming up on nine years and doing this podcast?

• 8:52Georgia Hardstark?

  No.

• 8:53Karen Kilgariff?

  You're shaking your head as if, no. I just don't know about that. I just don't, it's bewildering because when I told you in like month four to get your hopes down.

• 9:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, you did.

• 9:07Karen Kilgariff?

  I really, really didn't want you to get run over by the show business bus.

• 9:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 9:14Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, I feel very grateful to have been as wrong as I was.

• 9:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 9:19Karen Kilgariff?

  But it's so weird that all of my experience up until that point, literally was like you could, you could bet money on it. You could set a timer to people having like this little mm of success and then going straight down into a pit, like basically like crashing their car, getting someone pregnant, going to a mental hospital, like.

• 9:38Georgia Hardstark?

  We've done two or three of those things.

• 9:40Karen Kilgariff?

  We've done a couple.

• 9:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Literally.

• 9:42Karen Kilgariff?

  We can do it all.

• 9:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Have you been pregnant?

• 9:44Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes, a couple of times. It's none, it's not your business and it's certainly not my business.

• 9:49Georgia Hardstark?

  That's right.

• 9:50Karen Kilgariff?

  But I just, it's just so weird to me because I was like, well, if this is gonna go any way, it's just gonna go this one way.

• 9:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. I mean, you're not wrong. There has been a bus run over feeling to it and I am a very changed person and it has been, I did check myself into a mental health facility a couple of years back because it was so bus hittingly awful.

• 10:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 10:14Georgia Hardstark?

  You know?

• 10:15Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes. I do know.

• 10:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, you know?

• 10:17Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, I, I knew that, but I also have felt that with you.

• 10:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. So that's been a total change. We're about to like kind of step into a new chapter, one would say.

• 10:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 10:29Georgia Hardstark?

  With this podcast and the network as far as like our new home.

• 10:35Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes, we're going to have a new home. We're not going to be independent anymore.

• 10:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. So we've been independent the past year and it's been.

• 10:41Karen Kilgariff?

  It's been equally amazing and empowering and great, but then also this show in particular is too big to be independent.

• 10:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 10:51Karen Kilgariff?

  Which is the weird irony of being in this business where like, once you get out past a certain point.

• 10:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 10:57Karen Kilgariff?

  You like have to keep going and you have to keep going up.

• 11:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 11:01Karen Kilgariff?

  Which is maybe the pressure you're talking about and maybe that feeling and uh, yeah, and the diff. Difficulty that we've had in the past is like, it's cool because right in this moment, we get to do a thing we could never do, which is talk about anything because when you're in contract with a company, you're literally and legally not allowed to have feelings that you share publicly.

• 11:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Right, which fucking feels terrible and sucks. So what I really hope for this moment, after this year of being independent, is that we, and I think what's going to happen with this new company, and it's the reason we are going to go with them, is that we respect them and it seems like they respect us. And I keep reading things about like, the podcast industry is changing. Look at the numbers then compared to now. But really what's changing is that we're kind of going back to our roots. And what that means is that this podcast network, that means so much to us, this podcast itself and our listeners are who we're doing this for. And I'm excited to get back to normalcy a little bit. Okay, so look, here's the point. We are excited for the future.

• 12:09Karen Kilgariff?

  That's right. Oh, and also, we have a podcast network, and here's some highlights from that. We have a podcast called Buried Bones with two of probably true crime's biggest stars, Kate Winkler-Dawson and Paul Holes. And on their podcast this week, they dive into the first episode of a two-part series that takes us back to 1970s Baltimore, where a teacher at an all-girls Catholic high school goes missing.

• 12:33Georgia Hardstark?

  And then over on everyone's favorite car-based podcast, Do You Need a Ride? Comedian Sabrina Jelley hops in the car to talk to Karen and Chris about life, hope, and ayahuasca, baby.

• 12:45Karen Kilgariff?

  Hey, that was actually one of my favorite episodes, because we were supposed to record it on the day after the election.

• 12:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh.

• 12:55Karen Kilgariff?

  And so, of course, we canceled that.

• 12:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 12:56Karen Kilgariff?

  And then we reset it for like, two weeks later, and we had a really funny conversation about that. And I didn't know her personally. I'd seen her.

• 13:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 13:05Karen Kilgariff?

  And heard of her. Truly one of my favorite people, Sabrina Jelley. Such a cool person. So then on this week's episode of Ghosted by Roz Hernandez, it's titled, John Gabris is not allowed to use the Ouija board, which pretty much tells you everything you need to know about that episode. Go listen to that.

• 13:22Georgia Hardstark?

  And then also, it's a new year and there are new ways to die on this podcast. We'll kill you. One of my faves. For example, this week, Erin and Erin start a two-part series on what thing that fucking plagues me forever. Fucking allergies.

• 13:38Karen Kilgariff?

  Allergies.

• 13:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Like, I never am not without a fucking disgusting tissue. It's so irritating.

• 13:46Karen Kilgariff?

  Georgia just pulled a tissue out of her trust. If you can believe that shit. Also, really quick before we get into our business, we just wanted to say, our beautiful friend, Dr. Dan, over on Parent Footprint is leaving the network. We loved having him for the, I think it's been five years, right?

• 14:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, it's been about five years.

• 14:06Karen Kilgariff?

  It's been about five years and we were just so thankful that we got to have his parenting advice and expertise. He's so good at what he does. And he's a member of the family.

• 14:17Georgia Hardstark?

  He literally is my cousin. He's, I saw him at Hanukkah. He's lovely and kind. He's going to take the podcast in a new direction and kind of his career too. I'm really excited to see what comes next. And Dr. Dan and Laura, thank you guys so much for being a part of Exactly Right.

• 14:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 14:32Georgia Hardstark?

  We are, are and forever big fans.

• 14:35Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes, for sure.

• 14:37Georgia Hardstark?

  The holidays are coming, which means we'll all be spending more time away from home.

• 14:41Karen Kilgariff?

  Whether you're visiting family or doing something actually fun, you want to know your home is protected while you're away.

• 14:46Georgia Hardstark?

  That's why now is a good time to think about home security with SimpliSafe.

• 14:50Karen Kilgariff?

  Unlike traditional security systems that alert you after a break-in starts, SimpliSafe is designed to help stop intruders before they get inside. These days, you're worried about your house, you're out of town, and then something comes up and you get to look on your phone and SimpliSafe is going to show you not only the video of like, it's a raccoon at your front door, but also that they have staff that's sitting there, they already know. And if it was something different or worse, they would have already been on it.

• 15:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, I really think that's invaluable peace of mind, that just like relying on your neighbors, paying a Is not going to give you. We've partnered with SimpliSafe to offer our listeners their biggest savings of the year. 70% off your new system with professional monitoring when you visit simplisafe.com/mfm.

• 15:33Karen Kilgariff?

  That's simplisafe.com/mfm. And when you order, write in MFM at checkout and it tells them we sent you and it really helps the show.

• 15:41Georgia Hardstark?

  SimpliSafe, ahead of crime in real time.

• 15:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Goodbye. Nothing makes you take a good, hard look at your furniture like inviting people over for the holidays.

• 15:49Georgia Hardstark?

  So give your home a little holiday upgrade with Article.

• 15:52Karen Kilgariff?

  Article makes it effortless to create a stylish, long-lasting home at an unbeatable price.

• 15:57Georgia Hardstark?

  They take great care in curating their collection, focusing on pieces that stand the test of time. There's no filler. Every item is chosen for its craftsmanship, design, and lasting value.

• 16:06Karen Kilgariff?

  And with Article's 30-day satisfaction guarantee, you can shop with confidence, knowing that if you're not completely in love with your new furniture, you can easily return it.

• 16:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Plus, Article's customer care team is available seven days a week. I know we're getting into fall and winter, but we live in Los Angeles, so my outdoor furniture is just like the perfect focal point for the pool parties we still end up having, sorry, everyone, when it's like sunny and gorgeous year round. I sit on my Article patio furniture every morning and have my coffee and watch Cookie Lay in the Sun, and the whole thing is just so peaceful and pretty. Article is offering our listeners $50 off your first purchase of $100 or more.

• 16:44Karen Kilgariff?

  To claim, visit article.com/murder and the discount will be automatically applied at checkout.

• 16:50Georgia Hardstark?

  That's article.com/murder for $50 off your first purchase of $100 or more.

• 16:55Karen Kilgariff?

  Goodbye. Cozy season is nearly upon us.

• 16:58Georgia Hardstark?

  That means crisp weather and soft layers.

• 17:01Karen Kilgariff?

  Prepare accordingly with fall staples from Bombas.

• 17:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Bombas has your favorite footwear for fall, including new suede moccasins with cushy soles, shearling lining, and water-resistant suede, plus soft slippers, slides, and booties.

• 17:13Karen Kilgariff?

  There's a Bombas sock for pretty much any fall occasion, from warm merino wool blends to sweat-wicking sport socks and dressier options for weddings.

• 17:22Georgia Hardstark?

  And for every Bombas item purchased, they donated an essential clothing item to someone facing housing insecurity with more than 200 million items donated so far. Okay, so when fall comes around, I have a pair of the Bombas booties pretty much in every room, so I can grab them when my feet inevitably become freezing, which they are constantly. And they're so comfy, you can wear them around the house, I wear them to bed, and they just make everything feel a little cozier.

• 17:48Karen Kilgariff?

  Head over to Bombas.com/MFM and use code MFM for 20% off your first purchase.

• 17:54Georgia Hardstark?

  That's B-O-M-B-A-S dot com slash MFM, code MFM at checkout.

• 17:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Goodbye.

• 18:02Georgia Hardstark?

  All right. All right, I'm first. Okay.

• 18:06Karen Kilgariff?

  Sincher trust.

• 18:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Sincher trust, and sit up straight and tell us a story.

• 18:12Karen Kilgariff?

  Storytime is about to begin.

• 18:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Are you ready to hear a story?

• 18:16Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes, I am.

• 18:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, well, we're gonna start in the town called Leighton Buzzard.

• 18:21Karen Kilgariff?

  What?

• 18:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Guess where it is?

• 18:23Karen Kilgariff?

  Uh, Texas.

• 18:24Georgia Hardstark?

  England.

• 18:24Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 18:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Leighton Buzzard. Like, what is that even?

• 18:27Karen Kilgariff?

  I think it's Leighton, Georgia.

• 18:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Leighton.

• 18:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, my guess would have been different if I knew that it was pronounced differently.

• 18:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Leighton Buzzard. Like, it's just like how in England, some places are like, Remington Spa. You know, like, spa, what?

• 18:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 18:42Georgia Hardstark?

  So Buzzard's the same kind of thing.

• 18:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Bumblebee by the sea.

• 18:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 18:44Karen Kilgariff?

  It's like, can you what? Can you just name a town, keep it moving?

• 18:48Georgia Hardstark?

  It's pretty adorable.

• 18:49Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, they're precious.

• 18:50Georgia Hardstark?

  And the town is super picturesque. It's a little town in Bedfordshire, England. What?

• 18:57Karen Kilgariff?

  Which is picturesque, but a huge buzzard is constantly circling overhead.

• 19:01Georgia Hardstark?

  They're known for their buzzers. It's right outside of London, north of London. It's between Oxford and Cambridge, in case you know where either of those two fucking places are.

• 19:09Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, that's where I went to summer school, so sure. I went to both and just communed back and forth.

• 19:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, boarding, when you went to boarding school?

• 19:17Karen Kilgariff?

  Boarding summer school. I summered at Oxford.

• 19:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Well, then you know that it's got those cute cobbled streets, everything is made of brick, it's really darling. There's cute pubs, local shops, it's just a small, chill town. And it's actually such a small town that when I looked for local celebrities to tell you about, the only one I recognized was the 1980s pop band, Kaja Gugu.

• 19:42Karen Kilgariff?

  They're from Light and Buzzard?

• 19:44Georgia Hardstark?

  They're from Light and Buzzard. They're the ones, they had the 1983 hit single Too Shy.

• 19:48Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, I'll sing it for you right now.

• 19:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Which is now gonna be stuck in your head. Go.

• 19:51Karen Kilgariff?

  Uh, two, we can't do it.

• 19:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, we can't.

• 19:53Karen Kilgariff?

  We'll get in trouble.

• 19:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Can you do it if you just sing it?

• 19:56Karen Kilgariff?

  Too shy, shy, hush, hush, I do I.

• 19:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, so they're, but they're from there.

• 20:02Karen Kilgariff?

  They did a great job. And you know, it's easy for people to say one-hit wonder, but you write a fucking song that everybody likes.

• 20:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 20:10Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean,

• 20:11Georgia Hardstark?

  It's like one-hit to you, but what about me and my heart?

• 20:14Karen Kilgariff?

  What, also, yeah, it does not reflect the size that Kadja, Kadja Gugu.

• 20:19Georgia Hardstark?

  No.

• 20:19Karen Kilgariff?

  Looms large, like a buzzard in my heart.

• 20:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Don't fucking tell me D-Lite is a one-hit wonder. I know every fucking word to every album.

• 20:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Now, that's what I have to sing if you start talking about D-Lite.

• 20:31Georgia Hardstark?

  This has gotten personal. So the town has that charming sleepy vibe to it and outside, outside the bustle of London. So it's the last place, of course, that one would think something dark would happen, except if you're into true crime. And then you expect it.

• 20:46Karen Kilgariff?

  You absolutely know.

• 20:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 20:47Karen Kilgariff?

  The more precious a little town is.

• 20:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. Don't be a precious town.

• 20:50Karen Kilgariff?

  Evil.

• 20:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Don't light up a room. Don't make everyone smile.

• 20:54Karen Kilgariff?

  David Lynch knows this. We know it. And you know it as a listener.

• 20:58Georgia Hardstark?

  So, but back in August of 1981, that peaceful facade was shattered when a well-liked, friendly, local shopkeeper was found brutally murdered in the back of her convenience store. What followed was a case that went cold for 40 years until a then teenage girl came forward with a shocking admission and the whole case unraveled.

• 21:19Karen Kilgariff?

  Wow.

• 21:20Georgia Hardstark?

  This is the story of the murder of Carol Morgan. The main sources I used for this story are remarks from the judge from an, from the eventual sentencing in this case, and reporting from the BBC, of course, and the rest of the sources can be found in the show notes. So we're in 1981 and Carol and Alan are a couple who met in a support group for divorced people and got married four years later. Carol's 36, Alan is a younger man at 31.

• 21:49Karen Kilgariff?

  Hot. If you're in a support group for divorced people, you can't tell me that you're just not even listening to anything anyone's saying because you're just absolutely shopping the entire time.

• 22:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, for sure. You're there like for one reason alone.

• 22:05Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. Was anyone in that support group like disheveled? I don't think so.

• 22:10Georgia Hardstark?

  No, no.

• 22:11Karen Kilgariff?

  Unless it was not coed. Sorry, I couldn't think of that word.

• 22:17Georgia Hardstark?

  It's also so funny like, and this is like, you know, when we're always like, in today's money, that would be whatever. It's also like in today's age, 31 is actually 45.

• 22:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Right.

• 22:28Georgia Hardstark?

  You know what I mean?

• 22:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 22:29Georgia Hardstark?

  And they do look like this typical British couple. She's got this pretty like feathery blonde bob. He's got this weird Caesar cut and looks kind of sketch, you know, but very British and like 36 and 31 is like actually in your late 40s and in England in the 80s.

• 22:48Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, all of us.

• 22:49Georgia Hardstark?

  All of us.

• 22:50Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, yeah.

• 22:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Not a pretty time. So together they're raising two kids, Dean, who's 14 and Jane, who's 12. And the kids are from Carol's previous marriage. And for the past year and a half, the Morgans have owned and operated a little corner store in a residential neighborhood. It's described interchangeably as a convenience store and a newsstand. So I think it's like that, but British. So kind of the like place where you buy a newspaper or candy or cigarettes, just kind of like a pop in little British, you know, grocer, green grocer.

• 23:22Karen Kilgariff?

  No, nothing green, no.

• 23:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Bodega, let's say.

• 23:25Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, maybe.

• 23:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Maybe.

• 23:27Karen Kilgariff?

  But more newspapers.

• 23:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. So, I can't breathe in this fucking.

• 23:33Georgia Hardstark?

  So the family lives in the apartment above the shop. Carol is well liked in the village and is known for being kind and helpful around the shop. And she's often described as a absolutely devoted mother to her two children. So here we are, it's a Thursday night, August 13th, 1981. That evening, Alan had taken the teens to a double feature movie in nearby Luton. Now, the three of them going to see a movie is actually unusual in itself. The stepdad taking the two, a 12 and 14 year old to see this movie is weird. Because Alan didn't really spend a lot of time with the kids when Carol wasn't around. In fact, the family didn't do much together at all anymore, especially because there's tension in the marriage.

• 24:17Georgia Hardstark?

  But for some reason, that night, they go to a double feature and things seem fine. They get back to the shop around 10:45 PM. When they come back, Alan sends the kids up to the apartment while he goes into the shop. When he goes in, he sees that it's a mess and merchandise is scattered everywhere, almost like there's been a robbery. He proceeds to the storeroom in the back and there, he's met with the horrifying discovery of Carol's body. She's lying in a pool of blood. Her body had been savagely attacked with what investigators will later believe to be either a machete or a cleaver or an axe.

• 24:54Karen Kilgariff?

  Horrible.

• 24:54Georgia Hardstark?

  I know. She's been struck between 10 and 15 times. It's completely savage. The main investigator later says it was, quote, "the worst attack I've seen on a human being."

• 25:05Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 25:06Georgia Hardstark?

  The perpetrator had also robbed the store of 500 pounds, which in today's money would be worse. I guess.

• 25:15Karen Kilgariff?

  Pounds, are they always above us?

• 25:17Georgia Hardstark?

  I think it varies.

• 25:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, I guess that's true.

• 25:20Georgia Hardstark?

  I'm not an economics major.

• 25:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, let's see, roughly 500 in the 80s.

• 25:25Georgia Hardstark?

  In pounds, it would be easier.

• 25:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Would it be like $2,500 today?

• 25:29Georgia Hardstark?

  3,100 about. So close.

• 25:32Karen Kilgariff?

  So almost nothing for brutally and savagely murdering the person that works there.

• 25:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. And actually, it's also weird because the cash wasn't stolen from the register. It was stolen from a hard to find drawer in the shop's back office, which to me actually isn't that weird. Like if someone were threatening her, like where's the money? I want more, like, you're gonna lead them to it.

• 25:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 25:54Georgia Hardstark?

  It's like one of those things where I was like, it's weird because it wasn't forced entry, so they must have known their perpetrator. But it's like, people answer the fucking door all the time. And then people kick their way, you know, it's just, okay.

• 26:04Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 26:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Anyway. And the killer also steals 105 packs of cigarettes.

• 26:09Karen Kilgariff?

  I feel like no matter what this is gonna turn into, that by itself was a crime of opportunity, where it's just like, that's you're in a store. And you're just like, I'm going to get everything.

• 26:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Right, like, let me get this while I'm here.

• 26:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, and if you already, ugh, god, though, it's just such a, such a, that kind of murder, there's all kinds of, it's all horrible. But that, especially where it's very, very gruesome, and there's a lot of blood, the idea that you aren't, like, as a human being, just totally in shock yourself, or like,

• 26:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 26:46Karen Kilgariff?

  and just leaving, no, you're actually turning around and going like, what do I need?

• 26:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 26:51Karen Kilgariff?

  Before you leave?

• 26:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Is just psycho. Totally, like, having the wherewithal to then go about your business is...

• 26:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Or think clearly.

• 27:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes, how evil.

• 27:01Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 27:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Absolutely. So Detective Superintendent Brian Prickett of the local police is put on the case, and investigators quickly hear from multiple witnesses that a young man with light brown hair, who's about 5'6" tall, was seen near the shop on the evening of Carol's murder. And there's a composite sketch drawn. Witnesses say he was seen clutching two plastic shopping bags to his chest, so probably with the cigarettes. They say the man left in a station wagon that was parked outside the shop. The police obviously quickly confirmed that Alan couldn't have committed the murders. His alibi is completely solid, because he was at the movies, weirdly. But as the investigation goes on, Alan, of course, starts to look suspicious. As it turns out, Alan had a pretty shady side.

• 27:45Georgia Hardstark?

  A lot of people in the neighborhood have had bad interactions with him. And they hear from multiple people that he has a reputation of saying offensive things, particularly to women, and that he's known to be a bit of a bully. Neighbors who live near the shop and where the Morgans live say that Alan is known to have had several relationships with other women. It's like a well-known fact about town. Alan himself tells the police of his own volition that he has been in a relationship with another woman for some time. Just tells them that. In fact, everyone knows about this relationship. It's with a woman named Margaret, and not long before Carol's murder, Margaret's husband had gone into the shop to confront Alan about it. Alan and Carol's marriage had been very

• 28:26Georgia Hardstark?

  strained because of this, because Carol knew about the affair. But the month before she died, she had told her uncle that she and Alan were trying to give things another shot. So it doesn't take long for rumors to start to circulate that Alan had something to do with his wife's death. And this is just so absurd. There is this news footage of him being interviewed outside the shop in the months following the murder, and in it, Alan addresses these rumors. It's so fucking absurd. The reporter's like, you know, why are people saying stuff about you? What are they saying? And he says, quote, "To be offhand that I killed my wife. But as the police know, and as you yourselves know, well, I was in Luton taking the kids to the pictures," end quote. And he's just like totally casual about it,

• 29:11Georgia Hardstark?

  as if he's talking about like a robbery and not the brutal murder of his wife, saying like, "I'm not a suspect."

• 29:17Karen Kilgariff?

  And he's making sure to really get it out there.

• 29:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. Everyone knows that, yeah. And then, when asked why people think he killed his wife, he says, "I was happy-go-lucky, I suppose," like afterwards. "I was a bit of a womanizer, but that's all. I didn't profit from it," end quote. And then, when asked how Carol's death has affected him, this is the fucking craziest, Alan says, quote, "Affect me? Well, I closed the business for seven weeks while the police were investigating it. I lost a lot of stock I had to throw out, and I've had to sell the business at a loss," end quote. That's how the murder has affected him. So like, you can't even fake it.

• 29:52Karen Kilgariff?

  You gotta do some PR training if you are that psychopathic slash sociopathic, we're not sure. Yeah. Because you really did yourself a disservice on that one.

• 30:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Like, you don't even know to pretend to cry. I'm not saying that that's okay and that should happen. But everyone else knows, like, this is how you're... It's like, just do these little things.

• 30:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. At least pretend, but...

• 30:18Karen Kilgariff?

  God.

• 30:18Georgia Hardstark?

  When you're that far gone, you don't even understand that pretending is necessary.

• 30:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, because, think of it that way where it's like, we have cried on this podcast about people

• 30:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 30:29Karen Kilgariff?

  getting killed forty years ago.

• 30:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 30:32Karen Kilgariff?

  And it's like, this is your wife and it just happened.

• 30:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally.

• 30:36Karen Kilgariff?

  So what are you, three months ago, you have, you're not accessing any emotion whatsoever.

• 30:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally. That's a good point. So then the investigators look into the couple's finances. And they find that the shop hadn't been doing great. The foot traffic in the area isn't very heavy and the margins at a store like that are very tight, you know, and the couple had recently bounced a check to one of their suppliers. And they had looked into selling the shop and opening in another location, which Carol had wanted to do after she found out about the affair, to get a fresh start. But doing that was tricky because Alan and Carol had opened the store with the money Carol had gotten from selling her house, her old house, and a six thousand pound loan, which in today's money, six thousand pound loan, five hundred pounds worth three thousand dollars around.

• 31:25Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, like, twelve thousand?

• 31:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Thirty-seven, oh, four eighty-four.

• 31:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 31:30Georgia Hardstark?

  So that's a big fucking loan.

• 31:31Karen Kilgariff?

  It's a big loan.

• 31:33Georgia Hardstark?

  They still owed too much on the shop to sell it and open a different store. And the loan is tied to, have to say it with me, life insurance policies on both Alan and Carol. If either of them were to die, proceeds from their life insurance would pay off the loan.

• 31:50Karen Kilgariff?

  Do they still do that? That seems like a very bad idea.

• 31:53Georgia Hardstark?

  It does, doesn't it? I mean, it's just so ugly.

• 31:57Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, it is. It is.

• 32:00Georgia Hardstark?

  And there's more. Police find out that in the days leading up to Carol's murder, Alan had made several large cash withdrawals from his bank account. He had also ordered an unusually large amount of cigarettes for the store.

• 32:12Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 32:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. Almost like, I can pay you in the cash that's in the drawer in the back and in cigarettes.

• 32:20Karen Kilgariff?

  That is, turns my stomach.

• 32:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 32:23Karen Kilgariff?

  Where it's like, that's, that's what your wife's life is worth. Like, what is wrong with you?

• 32:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. And his strange behavior, of course, doesn't go unnoticed, especially when, in sharp contrast to Alan's reaction, an anonymous person from the community, who's described simply as a businessman, puts up a 5,000 pound reward for information leading to the capturing conviction of Carol's killer. And he says it's because, quote, "Our town shouldn't have to live in fear of a maniac like this," end quote. So it's just a concerned citizen who's uncomfortable with a murder like this, you know, going unsolved in his town.

• 32:58Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 32:58Georgia Hardstark?

  And he fucking cares more. Unfortunately, this financial information, that they were struggling about the life insurance, about the loan, all of that stuff, is never revealed to the public, or to Alan himself. They never told him they knew that. And their reasoning was that they were hoping that by giving Alan a sense of confidence, he would slip up and reveal more, either to them, or the media, or like brag to friends, or some shit. But it doesn't happen. But they still don't release that information, which, I don't know, to me, sounds like important information to give to potential witnesses. But like, know them. You know what I mean?

• 33:38Karen Kilgariff?

  Just to make it the correct context?

• 33:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 33:41Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 33:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 33:42Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, I feel like that is, we're talking about the 80s, where it's like, the way police worked back then was so internal and kind of like secretive, and it felt like individual theories would just get thrown up, we're gonna do it this way and do it that way, where there was no, kind of like, here's the, based on these personalities, the best way to kind of

• 34:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Just how to handle it, yeah.

• 34:04Karen Kilgariff?

  See that information, here's the best way to be most effective. It's just like, it just seemed random all the time back then.

• 34:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Or like, not based on any evidence whatsoever, just based on hunches, instead of like, data. So, yeah, he never gives up any information, and Alan winds up marrying Margaret, the woman he was having an affair with, and the two of them, and the two children, move out of town to the north of England. They all move away as a family. So that's the state of affairs from 1983 on. Every two years, the case had come up for review. Witnesses had been re-interviewed. The evidence is looked over again. Detective Prickett says that the case is a thorn in his side, and he is desperate to see it solved. And then finally, in 2018, Detective Prickett is officially retired,

• 34:54Georgia Hardstark?

  and a new set of eyes get on this case. That's when Detective Suppt Foster. His name is Suppt.

• 35:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Spell it.

• 35:02Georgia Hardstark?

  S U P T.

• 35:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 35:04Georgia Hardstark?

  I mean, it's kind of a badass name, right?

• 35:06Karen Kilgariff?

  I don't mind it.

• 35:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. It's like, where'd you get that? But it's okay.

• 35:11Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, you don't have to tell us.

• 35:12Georgia Hardstark?

  No, you don't.

• 35:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Because you're so private and manly.

• 35:14Georgia Hardstark?

  And British.

• 35:15Karen Kilgariff?

  And reserved.

• 35:17Georgia Hardstark?

  He takes over as the head of the Bedfordshire, Cambridgeshire, and Hetfordshire cold case review team. And one of his first jobs is like just reviewing this big 40-year-old unsolved case of the murder of Carol Morgan. So police circle back to, you know, all the witnesses. They go back and check all these notes, and they come across a now 60-year-old woman named Jane Bunting. So Jane was only 17 years old at the time of the murder. And she was friendly with Margaret, who was the woman that Alan was having an affair with and eventually married. It seems like maybe Margaret was like a mentor kind of to Jane. And when they interview her,

• 36:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Jane says, quote, "I've been waiting for you to come see me for 40 years."

• 36:06Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, wow.

• 36:07Georgia Hardstark?

  And she has a shocking revelation. Jane tells police that one night in the months leading up to Carol's murder, she had run into Alan at a local watering hole called the Dolphin Pub. She says that evening, Alan asked her if her ex-boyfriend might know anyone who he could hire to murder his wife. And she was horrified by that. And then you're like, why didn't she go to the police? You know, but her reasoning for never going forward are complicated and they're understandable from the point of view of a 17 year old in a way. Cause she says that over the decades, she kind of figured that the police, if they truly suspected Alan, he would have been arrested

• 36:50Georgia Hardstark?

  already. So she didn't think he was a suspect and never they didn't make it seem like he was a suspect because they didn't give any information out about the financial like misdeeds. So that's like, if she had known that, maybe she would have like put it together and come forward.

• 37:05Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. She was just assuming that everyone, everything was kind of proceeding.

• 37:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 37:09Karen Kilgariff?

  As normal, except for that, I think after like five years.

• 37:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 37:13Karen Kilgariff?

  I don't know.

• 37:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Well, the other reason is that she stayed silent out of a feeling of misplaced loyalty to Margaret, which I think is like, I love the cases where it's like, it's a cold case for so long and people's loyalties change. And that's how a lot of those things get solved.

• 37:26Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 37:27Georgia Hardstark?

  People come forward, which I think is great. It also just speaks to like, I know that it's important to keep evidence like a secret and you know, so only the killer knows, but eventually if it's cold and nothing's happening, you gotta give out more information. Maybe someone will have, you know, something to say.

• 37:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Mm hmm.

• 37:44Georgia Hardstark?

  After Jane's revelation and with all the other evidence they had, they had gathered against Alan, in 2019, both Alan and Margaret are charged with conspiring to murder Carol. Margaret is found not guilty, but in June of 2024, at the age of 74, Alan is convicted and sentenced to life in prison.

• 38:04Karen Kilgariff?

  Wow.

• 38:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. Finally. Alan's conviction didn't bring the closure everyone had hoped for. Carol's family was torn apart. This is so awful. After their mother's death and moving away with their stepparents, Carol's kids each write letters to Carol's parents saying they have new lives and that they don't want to be in contact anymore. And of course, Carol's parents are devastated. They lost their daughter and now their grandchildren. And they will always believe that the kids didn't write the letters of their own violation.

• 38:33Karen Kilgariff?

  They would never do. It's grandparent, unless they were the worst grandparents in the world.

• 38:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 38:38Karen Kilgariff?

  But you know, they weren't.

• 38:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 38:40Karen Kilgariff?

  Like that, no, that's the, that's the psycho husband.

• 38:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. It's like an evil manipulation completely. It's so manipulative to have them do that.

• 38:48Karen Kilgariff?

  You would actually want nothing more than to see your grandmother if your mother was dead.

• 38:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. There's a connection you have.

• 38:54Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 38:55Georgia Hardstark?

  And Carol's kids, now adults in their 50s, still struggle with the truth about their stepfather. Dean says that after he hears about the charges, he called Alan, who assured him it's all a big misunderstanding. Dean kind of pushes back and then Dean says, quote, "The argument became heated and he put the phone down on me," meaning he hung up on him while he was trying to get to the bottom of his mother's murder. And then he says, "We have not spoken since," end quote. In 2024, at her stepfather's sentencing, Jane, who was 12 at the time of her mother's murder, gave a heart-wrenching victim impact statement in court, saying, quote, "The man I spent my entire life calling Dad lied to me for

• 39:36Georgia Hardstark?

  my entire life. It has been an incredibly distressing and confusing period of my life that has made me doubt everything I knew about my mother and my stepparents," end quote. While Alan is now in prison, there are still, of course, unanswered questions. He's never revealed any information that could lead to the identification and arrest of the man that he hired to murder his wife. And that person's identity remains a mystery, although, of course, police are still looking into it. The town of Leyton Buzzard still remembers the murder of Carol Morgan. It was a small town, and the murder was something that haunted the community for the 40 years it went unsolved. Yeah, I bet. The case might have been closed, but the mystery surrounding it remains, as

• 40:19Georgia Hardstark?

  does the pain it caused. Leyton Buzzard, for all its charm, will never forget what happened that night. And that is the story of the murder of Carol Morgan. Wow. Forty? I feel like it could have been solved. It could have been solved. Back then. Tough. Yeah. Well, and also just, I don't know. Maybe it's just, look, it's 2025. And we've been doing this for nine years. So it's real obvious to us. It's like you read these and hear these stories over and over where it's like, yeah, that...

• 40:52Karen Kilgariff?

  When it's not direct, then the indirect version goes A, B, C,

• 40:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 40:56Karen Kilgariff?

  D, or maybe E, sometimes F.

• 40:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 40:59Karen Kilgariff?

  But it's like, it's very repetitive.

• 41:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 41:02Karen Kilgariff?

  These stories.

• 41:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally.

• 41:03Karen Kilgariff?

  And these, what sociopaths do when they need to get their money, get their way, get rid of someone in their way.

• 41:10Georgia Hardstark?

  And then what happens when a small town, you know, police force who haven't investigated a lot of murders try to do that.

• 41:16Karen Kilgariff?

  Also, it's a thing they say a lot, which is like, we just don't have the evidence.

• 41:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 41:19Karen Kilgariff?

  So it's obvious, we think it's this person. It's obvious, whatever. But if there's no one there to even give just, you know, eyewitness testimony, there's just nothing.

• 41:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. Yeah, it's all circumstantial.

• 41:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, I'm glad it was finally solved.

• 41:33Georgia Hardstark?

  Me too.

• 41:34Karen Kilgariff?

  But still.

• 41:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Let's get more of those in 2025.

• 41:36Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, for real.

• 41:39Georgia Hardstark?

  The holidays are coming, which means we'll all be spending more time away from home.

• 41:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Whether you're visiting family or doing something actually fun, you want to know your home is protected while you're away.

• 41:48Georgia Hardstark?

  That's why now is a good time to think about home security with SimpliSafe.

• 41:52Karen Kilgariff?

  Unlike traditional security systems that alert you after a break in starts, SimpliSafe is designed to help stop intruders before they get inside. These days, you're worried about your house, you're out of town, and then something comes up and you get to look on your phone. And SimpliSafe is going to show you not only the video of like, it's a raccoon at your front door, but also that they have staff that's sitting there, they already know. And if it was something different or worse, they would have already been on it.

• 42:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, I really think that's invaluable peace of mind, that just like relying on your neighbors, paying attention is not going to give you. We've partnered with SimpliSafe to offer our listeners their biggest savings of the year, 70% off your new system with professional monitoring when you visit simplisafe.com/mfm.

• 42:35Karen Kilgariff?

  That's simplisafe.com/mfm. And when you order, write in MFM at checkout and it tells them we sent you, and it really helps the show.

• 42:43Georgia Hardstark?

  SimpliSafe, ahead of crime in real time.

• 42:45Karen Kilgariff?

  Goodbye. Cozy season is nearly upon us.

• 42:49Georgia Hardstark?

  That means crisp weather and soft layers.

• 42:51Karen Kilgariff?

  Prepare accordingly with fall staples from Bombas.

• 42:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Bombas has your favorite footwear for fall, including new suede moccasins with cushy soles, shearling lining and water resistant suede.

• 43:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Plus soft slippers, slides, and booties.

• 43:04Karen Kilgariff?

  There's a Bombas sock for pretty much any fall occasion, from warm merino wool blends to sweat-wicking sport socks and dressier options for weddings.

• 43:12Georgia Hardstark?

  And for every Bombas item purchased, they donated an essential clothing item to someone facing housing insecurity, with more than 200 million items donated so far. Okay, so when fall comes around, I have a pair of the Bombas booties pretty much in every room, so I can grab them when my feet inevitably become freezing, which they are constantly. And they're so comfy, you can wear them around the house, I wear them to bed, and they just make everything feel a little cozier.

• 43:39Karen Kilgariff?

  Head over to Bombas.com/MFM and use code MFM for 20% off your first purchase.

• 43:44Georgia Hardstark?

  That's B-O-M-B-A-S dot com slash MFM, code MFM at checkout.

• 43:50Karen Kilgariff?

  Goodbye. We've all had moments where dealing with healthcare or insurance feels completely overwhelming.

• 43:56Georgia Hardstark?

  You're sick, worried about someone you love, trying to understand what comes next, and suddenly you're spending hours on hold, filling out paperwork, and trying to figure out who to call.

• 44:05Karen Kilgariff?

  Research shows patients spend the equivalent of an eight-hour workday every month coordinating their own care.

• 44:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Nobody hands you a roadmap when you're dealing with a diagnosis or ongoing health issues.

• 44:15Karen Kilgariff?

  That's why there's Solace Health.

• 44:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Solace provides personal healthcare advocates who average 16 years of healthcare experience and can help you get answers fast.

• 44:23Karen Kilgariff?

  Think of them as someone in your corner who understands the healthcare system and can handle the logistics while you focus on your health.

• 44:29Georgia Hardstark?

  They can help with appointments, insurance denials, medical bills, treatment options, and understanding doctor recommendations.

• 44:35Karen Kilgariff?

  Research shows 92% of patients report a positive impact on their care from working with an advocate.

• 44:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Advocacy improves outcomes, and Solace advocates are covered by insurance nationwide.

• 44:45Karen Kilgariff?

  Eligibility varies by insurance plan.

• 44:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Advocates do not provide medical or legal advice or services, must be 18 years or older.

• 44:52Karen Kilgariff?

  Go to SolaceHealth.com/murder to see if you qualify.

• 44:55Georgia Hardstark?

  It takes about two minutes and it's covered by insurance.

• 44:58Karen Kilgariff?

  That's S-O-L-A-C-E health dot com slash murder.

• 45:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Goodbye.

• 45:04Karen Kilgariff?

  All right, well, my story is different. Good. As they usually are. And just a quick trigger warning about French pronunciation in this one, because, man, man, it's tough. But I'll do my best. Mrs. McCurry, my freshman and sophomore French teacher, props to you. This is gonna be bad. So I'm gonna really lay it on thick, just for your enjoyment. Do it. So, this story starts around 10:45 in the morning on May 26, 1986. So we're also in the 80s again. And we're in the Montparnasse neighborhood of Paris, France. So if you've

• 45:46Karen Kilgariff?

  ever been to the catacombs or down Rue de Guerre, which is very lively market street, you have been to this part of Paris. There's also a famous prison there called La Sante, and it's housed many notorious criminals over the years, including Panamanian dictator Manuel Noriega. Oh. But on this spring day in 1986, something very unusual is happening at La Sante. A rumbling sound can be heard overhead that grows louder by the second. It's a helicopter, and it's headed toward the roof of the prison. And then, a man appears on that roof, and it's clear that he does not belong there, because he's a 34-year-old inmate serving

• 46:30Karen Kilgariff?

  18 years for an armed robbery and attempted murder. But what he is already notorious for is actually his three previous successful prison breaks. Uh oh. Today, he's hoping that this attempt to bust out will be his, hopefully, fourth and final time. This is the story of Michel Vajure. All right. So the main sources in the story today are a 2009 documentary called My Greatest Escape, interviews with Michel that aired on Europe One Radio, and archival editions of The New York Times and The Chicago Tribune. And the rest of the sources are in our show notes. So, truly, the story starts in 1951, when Michel Vajure is born in a small town

• 47:15Karen Kilgariff?

  in northern France that I don't have to pronounce, because Maren mercifully left the town name out. So sadly, Michael's father is an abusive alcoholic. So when he's only four or five years old, his mother decides to give custody of him to his aunt Jermaine. Jermaine is a wonderful caregiver. She loves Michelle. She cares about his emotional needs. At one point, she even gets Michelle a dog that he names Rita.

• 47:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Aww.

• 47:42Karen Kilgariff?

  The best dog name for a girl.

• 47:44Georgia Hardstark?

  That's good.

• 47:45Karen Kilgariff?

  It's real good. And Rita becomes Michelle's most beloved companion. But of course, this separation from his actual original family is very difficult for Michelle. Causes a lot of emotional pain. But it gets worse because just a few years after Michelle settles in with his aunt, she passes away from cancer and he gets sent back to his parents' home. A toxic environment where he's deprived of the love and warmth of his aunt. And then one day, Michelle goes to school and when he gets home, he finds out that his parents gave Rita away.

• 48:23Georgia Hardstark?

  No.

• 48:24Karen Kilgariff?

  Horrible. So he has a tough childhood. The people who knew Michelle as a boy remember him as a gentle child who loved nature and animals. Over the years, he keeps several pet birds, including a falcon, a magpie, and a crow who he claims to have raised himself.

• 48:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 48:41Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 48:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Living my fucking dream life.

• 48:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Right. So, so as Michelle grows older, he starts getting in trouble with the law. Never hurts anybody. It mostly seems to be rooted in boredom. And he will later say, quote, "After 10:00 PM, there was nothing to do. We were 17. We wanted some action. We'd steal a car and go looking for cops in town for a bit of fun."

• 49:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Looking for cops?

• 49:04Karen Kilgariff?

  That's what I was gonna say. There's your difference right there.

• 49:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, like I get the stealing cars and having some fun, but like looking for trouble.

• 49:11Karen Kilgariff?

  No, dude, it's like you steal a car and your heart is racing and you're driving around town and you're just waiting to ditch the car.

• 49:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 49:19Karen Kilgariff?

  You're not looking for cops.

• 49:22Georgia Hardstark?

  I thought they were. They're like looking for cops.

• 49:24Karen Kilgariff?

  No, no, they were. I'm saying a normal person would be avoiding cops at all costs and dying. Michelle was absolutely looking for cops.

• 49:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Looking for trouble. Got it.

• 49:33Karen Kilgariff?

  So that might be a little bit of his, you know, issues with authority and parental figures.

• 49:38Georgia Hardstark?

  And adrenaline.

• 49:39Karen Kilgariff?

  And adrenaline and where is Rita? We need to find Rita. Michelle insists he was only ever borrowing those cars. He'd always return them, but then one night when he was 19, he quote unquote forgets to give one of those cars back. And when the police show up at his house that he shares with his girlfriend and their baby daughter, he is arrested.

• 50:00Karen Kilgariff?

  So for a first time nonviolent offender, Michelle is handed a very heavy sentence. 30 months in prison and a five year ban on returning to his home region, which is where he's lived his entire life.

• 50:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Jesus, that is heavy.

• 50:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 50:15Georgia Hardstark?

  And he has a child there.

• 50:17Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes, his girlfriend and baby live there and they're like, you're excommunicated out of this village essentially.

• 50:22Georgia Hardstark?

  And it's like fucking the baby mama over too, because that's 30 months of not having that second income.

• 50:29Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes, that's right. Well, the second income of stealing cars and then leaving them on the street. He must have worked at the subway or something. But just for context, the typical sentence for car theft at that time was a couple of months. So this was overkill for sure in a lot of ways. And it could be because that's sometimes happens in small towns where it's like, we're going to teach you a lesson. Or we don't like your kind.

• 50:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Right, or you've been chasing the cops down and they're pissed off about it.

• 50:56Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, have you been pissing the cops off? Now they got you. So of course, Michelle angry about this disproportionately harsh sentence. But then also while he's incarcerated, no one from his family visits him. And then his girlfriend leaves him for a cop. Yes, so he becomes very angry and disillusioned with the criminal justice system and authority figures and life in general. He serves his time, he's released when he's 21 and now Michelle is determined to start fresh. So he gets a job, he starts saving his money and it's all with the hope that he can actually win his ex-girlfriend back and reconnect with his young daughter.

• 51:39Karen Kilgariff?

  But then one day, despite being banned from that region of France, under the terms of his release, Michel travels home to visit his ex and their child. On the way, his new car breaks down and the first vehicle that passes him is a police car. Because Michel knows that he's breaking the law just by being in the area and he doesn't have a driver's license.

• 52:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, yeah.

• 52:02Karen Kilgariff?

  So, yeah, a lot of problems. He panics and bolts. The police catch him and he's sent back to prison, six months after he was released.

• 52:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 52:12Karen Kilgariff?

  So, this second stint behind bars is more than Michel can handle. Even though he's likely only facing a short sentence, he immediately starts plotting his escape. So, in quick succession, he manages two prison breaks.

• 52:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 52:23Karen Kilgariff?

  The first one, he figures out how to just basically scale the prison wall and he simply jumps to freedom.

• 52:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Parkour, man.

• 52:30Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, he's the OG parkour hero.

• 52:33Georgia Hardstark?

  How do you say parkour in French?

• 52:35Karen Kilgariff?

  It's parkour.

• 52:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Parkour.

• 52:37Karen Kilgariff?

  In the other escape, he convinces another prisoner who works outside of the prison, loading trucks, to switch places with him for a day.

• 52:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 52:47Karen Kilgariff?

  And it's a really smart move on his part because working outside means fewer layers of security to deal with. So, during this shift, he seizes the moment and he just sprints off facility grounds. Both times, Michel manages to stay free for several days before being caught and returned to prison. And then, of course, placed in higher security wing, where he spends a lot of time in solitary confinement. Horrifying.

• 53:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 53:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Like, and all of this because he stole a car.

• 53:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 53:17Karen Kilgariff?

  It's just so, so not.

• 53:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Disproportionate.

• 53:20Karen Kilgariff?

  So disproportionate and also then so, it's just to break you.

• 53:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, it's inhumane.

• 53:26Karen Kilgariff?

  Which is what all prison is.

• 53:28Georgia Hardstark?

  It's almost like they say the crime doesn't. Fit the punishment?

• 53:31Karen Kilgariff?

  The punishment doesn't fit the crime.

• 53:33Georgia Hardstark?

  That's what I meant.

• 53:34Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, I guess, but it means yours was right, too, actually.

• 53:37Georgia Hardstark?

  I guess they both work.

• 53:38Karen Kilgariff?

  You know what? Let's agree to agree. So even though he is in solitary confinement, he is not broken. He actually, he's busted out twice. He actually feels like he can do anything. So he just starts planning escape number three. He actually would later say, quote, "To me, you had to escape. That's what prison was made for." I remember saying to someone once that I wouldn't be surprised to find it in a dictionary, quote, "Prison, a place to escape from."

• 54:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 54:08Karen Kilgariff?

  That's how I functioned.

• 54:09Georgia Hardstark?

  That's a fun way to look at life, you know?

• 54:11Karen Kilgariff?

  It really is. And I do think that then going forward, because that was his approach, you could kind of tell in the way that he would plan these breaks. So the next example is great. So he, he gets a new cellmate named Gilles. I will definitely mispronounce that going forward. The two cellmates become very close. Michelle will later describe Gilles as, quote, "The brother I never had," and that he was the first person that really helped Michelle truly understand what family means, which is lovely and like very sad and kind of underlines that how hard and fucked up his family life was.

• 54:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally.

• 54:49Karen Kilgariff?

  No excuse.

• 54:50Georgia Hardstark?

  No.

• 54:51Karen Kilgariff?

  But still.

• 54:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 54:52Karen Kilgariff?

  Gilles is a more seasoned criminal than Michelle with experience in armed robberies and more complex heists. And so that makes him the ideal partner when it comes to Michelle plotting his next escape. So Gilles himself is not interested in breaking out of prison because his sentence is almost up, but he is willing to help Michelle with his plan despite it sounding ridiculous to him. So Michelle's goal is to make duplicates of the prison guard's keys. And he plans on doing that with the red wax coating that you find on the little rounds of Baby Bell cheese.

• 55:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 55:30Karen Kilgariff?

  So they get Baby Bell in this prison.

• 55:32Georgia Hardstark?

  I guess so.

• 55:33Karen Kilgariff?

  And he's like, well, if I get enough of that, I can just

• 55:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 55:37Karen Kilgariff?

  Put it in there and basically

• 55:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Harden it?

• 55:40Karen Kilgariff?

  Kind of. No, just like in passing, press a key into that wax.

• 55:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 55:45Karen Kilgariff?

  So here's the quote from Michelle, quote, "I walked around for months with a piece of cheese in my hand." So Maren makes this point in our notes. She says, "I don't know if he pressed the key into the red wax or the cheese."

• 56:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 56:01Karen Kilgariff?

  Could be either one.

• 56:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Sure.

• 56:03Karen Kilgariff?

  To me, wax makes more sense.

• 56:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, the wax would make more sense.

• 56:06Karen Kilgariff?

  Because you've got to eat that cheese.

• 56:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 56:09Karen Kilgariff?

  Back to the quote, "My aim was to get an imprint of the cell key and the key to the exercise yard. The guards carried a bunch of keys in their hands. You memorized the shape of the key you need. You spotted in his bunch of keys and you bump into him, a bit like a pickpocket."

• 56:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 56:26Karen Kilgariff?

  So Michelle claims one day that he successfully does it that way and gets impressions of the keys he needs and then takes-

• 56:35Georgia Hardstark?

  That's crazy.

• 56:36Karen Kilgariff?

  It's insane. And then takes the key-shaped baby bell wax back to his cell and he and Gilles use that as their blueprint to file down a piece of scrap metal into the shape of some keys.

• 56:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Got it.

• 56:49Karen Kilgariff?

  Michelle says it takes them several weeks to complete this, but it works. He winds up with duplicate keys that miraculously function.

• 56:56Georgia Hardstark?

  My God.

• 56:57Karen Kilgariff?

  I know. So for a third time, Michelle manages to escape from prison. Once again, his freedom is short-lived. He's captured and returned, this time to an even more secure cell.

• 57:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Hmm.

• 57:10Karen Kilgariff?

  So now Michelle's facing 25 years in prison-

• 57:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Jesus.

• 57:14Karen Kilgariff?

  -even though he has never committed a violent offense.

• 57:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 57:17Karen Kilgariff?

  He's 24 years old at this point.

• 57:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh my God. And he could be an engineer. Like, that key thing is brilliant.

• 57:23Karen Kilgariff?

  He could be a prop maker.

• 57:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Make him a spy. I bet he'd be a great spy.

• 57:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Make him, let him get into theater. I'm getting more of an artsy vibe from him. Okay. He's being held in a facility that truly does seem inescapable. He spends a lot of time in solitary confinement in a cell that's about 20 stories off the ground. So that wall-jumping plan is out. There are three rows of bars on the windows and an armored fence surrounding the grounds. Michelle's mental health definitely suffers in this environment. His cell is cold and sterile and lonely. He has no personal items. Everything's concrete. The lights are kept on 24/7.

• 58:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Ooh, that's sad.

• 58:04Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, really bad. He doesn't sleep much. Michelle says that the only movement he ever sees, day in, day out, is when his food gets slid into the cell.

• 58:13Georgia Hardstark?

  That's no way to live.

• 58:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. He says, quote, "You're about as alive as a fly in a jar, except the fly has proportionately more space."

• 58:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Fuck.

• 58:23Karen Kilgariff?

  So Michelle's life is bleak and just when he starts to consider actually maybe ending it, a new thought takes over, the one that's always kept him going. That's the idea of escaping once again. Plotting his next prison break becomes his singular source of hope and joy. So basically he's like, well, I'm here anyway. I might as well try to do the impossible.

• 58:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally.

• 58:45Karen Kilgariff?

  So he starts looking for any kind of opportunity to see what, where a silver lining might be in terms of escaping.

• 58:53Georgia Hardstark?

  I mean, it's almost like your sanity depends on you plotting something. It's like whether or not it's could happen or would happen or is absolutely possible at all, you're gonna go nuts if you don't have like, aren't able to put your brain in a certain direction and train it on something like that.

• 59:07Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes, which is true for everybody. No matter how big or small your cell is.

• 59:12Georgia Hardstark?

  You gotta have hopes and dreams.

• 59:13Karen Kilgariff?

  You gotta fucking, and it doesn't matter if they're dumb. Who cares? It doesn't matter if it's crazy or cringe or anything.

• 59:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Cause you're gonna get somewhere with them and maybe not to the place that you're like fucking dreaming of, but it's gonna be a couple of steps ahead at least.

• 59:27Karen Kilgariff?

  You might get yourself a true crime podcast.

• 59:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Dream big, everyone.

• 59:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Dream big. It's pretty goddamn great.

• 59:32Georgia Hardstark?

  It's pretty fucking awesome.

• 59:33Karen Kilgariff?

  We own this table.

• 59:34Georgia Hardstark?

  We own this table.

• 59:37Karen Kilgariff?

  If we wanted to, we can take these microphones home tonight.

• 59:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh my god.

• 59:42Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean.

• 59:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Kind of fuck people over, but.

• 59:44Karen Kilgariff?

  Leon is like, what, what? No. Okay. So in looking for that opportunity, so he has to go to the courthouse every once in a while for like scheduled court dates or legal appointments or whatever. So on one of those trips, finds that opportunity when he notices, he starts noticing basically everything about what the guards are doing. So he's just like, I'm gonna track the guards. I'm gonna watch what they do. I'm gonna memorize it and study it and think about it. And then every time, compare it to the last time.

• 1:00:13Georgia Hardstark?

  He's a theater spy.

• 1:00:16Karen Kilgariff?

  The leading man.

• 1:00:17Georgia Hardstark?

  The leading man.

• 1:00:18Karen Kilgariff?

  So he notices where they typically stand, how they search him, which rooms they take him through. All of these details get like memorized and then he pieces together this plan. First of all, He realizes he's going to need a gun. So he starts to carve one out of a bar of soap. Cause that's, that's what you have to do in jail.

• 1:00:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:40Karen Kilgariff?

  He has never owned a gun before. But he is able to carve a realistic looking one out of soap.

• 1:00:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Damn.

• 1:00:46Karen Kilgariff?

  That he paints it black with shoe polish. And then he adds some small, we're getting back into the arts now.

• 1:00:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:51Karen Kilgariff?

  He adds some small metallic details like a round battery to mimic a muzzle. And a nail clipper that he kind of affixes to it. So when it's clicked, it sounds like a gun cocking.

• 1:01:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Come on.

• 1:01:04Karen Kilgariff?

  This guy is good.

• 1:01:06Georgia Hardstark?

  This guy wasted talent.

• 1:01:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Truly. So he realizes the guards always let him leave his underwear on when they strip search him before his court appointments.

• 1:01:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 1:01:19Karen Kilgariff?

  So when he's finished with the soap gun, he goes ahead and sews a hidden pocket into his underwear, which he refers to.

• 1:01:26Georgia Hardstark?

  How is that not caught on underwear with pockets? Come on.

• 1:01:30Karen Kilgariff?

  With secret pockets.

• 1:01:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Secret underwear pockets.

• 1:01:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Right? It seemed like you had one when you pulled that Kleenex out earlier. Cause that came out of nowhere.

• 1:01:39Georgia Hardstark?

  I'm gonna fucking trademark that immediately.

• 1:01:42Karen Kilgariff?

  It's your thing.

• 1:01:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:43Karen Kilgariff?

  But you have to call them like the Michelle line or something so that he gets some credit.

• 1:01:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 1:01:47Karen Kilgariff?

  So he, he, he refers to the secret pocket as the quote, false bottom. Cause he's French.

• 1:01:53Georgia Hardstark?

  That's funny.

• 1:01:55Karen Kilgariff?

  And then he stashes the soap pistol there before he's escorted off site.

• 1:02:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 1:02:00Karen Kilgariff?

  So then once he's at the courthouse, the guards tell him to strip down to his underwear. He then asks to use the bathroom. Then in the bathroom, he retrieves the soap gun from the secret underpants pocket. And then he walks back out of the restroom, brandishing the weapon. The five or so people in the room think he has a real gun. He takes a hostage, he orders the guards in the room to drop their weapons. They do it. That's how realistic soap gun is.

• 1:02:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Soap gun.

• 1:02:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Then he manages to escape the building and the officers chase after him.

• 1:02:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Shit.

• 1:02:35Karen Kilgariff?

  He, so he gets away.

• 1:02:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, that's insane.

• 1:02:38Karen Kilgariff?

  And he cannot believe he actually pulls this off, mostly because he didn't think the gun was convincing at all. He would later say, quote, "It wasn't that well made because when I left the law courts, it was coming apart."

• 1:02:49Georgia Hardstark?

  I'm sure it was just like a matter of surprise.

• 1:02:52Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 1:02:53Georgia Hardstark?

  If it had been any longer, they would have had time to like, you know.

• 1:02:57Karen Kilgariff?

  To be like, is that a nail?

• 1:02:58Georgia Hardstark?

  That doesn't look right.

• 1:02:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Is it a nail clipper?

• 1:03:00Georgia Hardstark?

  It's almost like the adrenaline made them not think it through. And by then, he could have picked up one of the guns that they had dropped and have a real gun.

• 1:03:06Karen Kilgariff?

  Completely. It's all about his, may we say, acting on his side of like being convincing.

• 1:03:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:13Karen Kilgariff?

  But you spot a gun in someone's hand and they're yelling all the right stuff.

• 1:03:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:16Karen Kilgariff?

  You're not going in and being like, is it though?

• 1:03:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:19Karen Kilgariff?

  You're like, yeah, it is. He got a gun.

• 1:03:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally.

• 1:03:22Karen Kilgariff?

  And also, yeah, do the safest thing if someone is brandishing a soap gun.

• 1:03:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Don't get interested.

• 1:03:29Georgia Hardstark?

  No.

• 1:03:29Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. So this time, Michelle managed to stay on the run much longer. He actually ends up reconnecting with Gilles, who has been released from prison.

• 1:03:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Love it.

• 1:03:38Karen Kilgariff?

  They start doing jobs together.

• 1:03:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Nice.

• 1:03:40Karen Kilgariff?

  So he escapes from prison, hooks up with his brother from another mother.

• 1:03:44Georgia Hardstark?

  It's a lovely story.

• 1:03:45Karen Kilgariff?

  And then immediately just starts criming.

• 1:03:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay. What else are you gonna do?

• 1:03:49Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, true.

• 1:03:50Georgia Hardstark?

  You're not gonna fucking flip Le Big Macs?

• 1:03:52Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, you can't. You can't. They're Royale or cheese.

• 1:03:56Georgia Hardstark?

  They're Royale, yeah.

• 1:03:56Karen Kilgariff?

  And he actually, he's now involved in more organized robberies and using real guns to facilitate them, which he didn't do before. He also falls in love with Gilles' sister, Nadine.

• 1:04:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Cute. Nadine.

• 1:04:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Cute. The most French name in the world, Nadine. Before long, Nadine is pregnant. The two get married. He's out long enough that like he starts a life again.

• 1:04:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Huh.

• 1:04:21Karen Kilgariff?

  Nadine and Michelle spend about two years together before Michelle is caught again. This time, following a robbery where a cop actually gets shot. So Michelle is sent back to prison. This time, he is held at La Sante in Paris, which is where our story starts, picks back up from the beginning. The second his ass hits La Sante, he starts planning his escape again. Then he finds out that Gilles has been killed during a shootout following a botched armed robbery.

• 1:04:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, no.

• 1:04:53Karen Kilgariff?

  So, of course, this has a huge impact on both Michelle and Nadine. So now, they together kind of are like, we have to do whatever it takes to be together again. So they put together a wild plan. Michelle is going to break out of prison and Nadine is going to pick him up in the helicopter that she will pilot.

• 1:05:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 1:05:16Karen Kilgariff?

  So that's what we were hearing overhead. Nadine coming in for her man.

• 1:05:21Georgia Hardstark?

  In the helicopter.

• 1:05:22Karen Kilgariff?

  That's right.

• 1:05:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Holy shit.

• 1:05:23Karen Kilgariff?

  That's love. Some people won't even pick you up from the airport. This woman's like, I will learn how to fly a helicopter.

• 1:05:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Fly the fucking airport.

• 1:05:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Sons of bitches. I mean, LAX is a disaster, but still.

• 1:05:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Like, I'd rather learn how to drive a helicopter than go to LAX, so.

• 1:05:41Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, for sure. Definitely sexier. So for five or six months, Nadine takes flying lessons every weekend.

• 1:05:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Holy shit.

• 1:05:49Karen Kilgariff?

  Under a fake name. She has to pay about 2,200 francs an hour to rent this helicopter for these lessons, which is, in today's US dollars, roughly how much an hour, do you think?

• 1:06:03Georgia Hardstark?

  2,000.

• 1:06:04Karen Kilgariff?

  900 an hour. Still, 900 an hour.

• 1:06:07Georgia Hardstark?

  That's a lot of money, yeah.

• 1:06:09Karen Kilgariff?

  She always pays in cash.

• 1:06:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Smart.

• 1:06:11Karen Kilgariff?

  That's love. Some people won't even pay for your Uber from the airport. So, but on the morning of May 26, 1986, Michelle wakes up. He waits for that helicopter sound.

• 1:06:22Georgia Hardstark?

  So he knows it's coming.

• 1:06:23Karen Kilgariff?

  He knows it's coming. He knows, he's just, I'm sure they're writing each other love letters in code of like...

• 1:06:29Georgia Hardstark?

  That's a spy. There's a spy thing.

• 1:06:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Spy thing. He's like, I went, she's like, I went and saw the birds this afternoon.

• 1:06:35Georgia Hardstark?

  The birds are circling.

• 1:06:36Karen Kilgariff?

  They cost me 900 fucking dollars, your precious birds. Okay, so Nadine...

• 1:06:45Karen Kilgariff?

  Gets close to LaSante. Finally, the helicopter is just hovering over the prison yard. Michelle is down in the prison yard. Nadine tosses a bag out of the helicopter. Michelle sprints over to it, picks it up, pulls out a gun. Also fake, but more convincing than the soap gun. And that's key because if the couple gets caught, they don't want Nadine's charges to be any worse than they need to be. So they wanted this to be a fake gun. So Michelle turns around and holds the gun on the rest of the prison yard and threatens everyone there. Everybody freezes. Then Michelle runs up to the prison's roof and, because remember 20 stories up?

• 1:07:28Karen Kilgariff?

  And the helicopter is hovering now over the roof and it's tilted down just enough. So Nadine got this good at helicopter lessons. Where it's tilted down so that he can grab onto the bottom of the helicopter and hoist himself inside.

• 1:07:44Georgia Hardstark?

  This is a fucking action movie.

• 1:07:46Karen Kilgariff?

  It is the real deal. This whole scene just takes a couple of minutes, so it's that fast. Then Nadine in the pilot's seat flies the helicopter away. They landed in nearby school's athletic field. Right over to the high school.

• 1:08:01Georgia Hardstark?

  And then they have the best sex anyone has ever had in the history of sex.

• 1:08:06Karen Kilgariff?

  Can you imagine where it's like?

• 1:08:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Like he has to be in awe of her.

• 1:08:10Karen Kilgariff?

  He fucking better be. What more do you want from a woman?

• 1:08:15Georgia Hardstark?

  No, she's like, that's the sexiest thing I've ever heard in my life.

• 1:08:18Karen Kilgariff?

  It's pretty fucking cool. He's like, well, you could stand to lose 15 pounds. I'm just saying. So, so yeah, if they had, if they did have helicopter sex, they did it before they landed because there's a getaway car waiting for them on this athletic field. An accomplice is the driver. With that, Michelle has completed his most cinematic jailbreak. So the couple plans on escaping France with their child to start over somewhere new. They're thinking maybe South America, but they need more cash. So Michelle and Nadine decide to lay low, or as low as possible, while Michelle carries out a couple more armed robberies, which is not laying low and never works.

• 1:09:03Georgia Hardstark?

  No.

• 1:09:04Karen Kilgariff?

  Why don't they know?

• 1:09:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Have they seen a movie?

• 1:09:06Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, have they read a true crime story? So during one of these armed robberies, the police show up. The situation devolves into a shootout. Michelle is shot in the head.

• 1:09:17Georgia Hardstark?

  What?

• 1:09:18Karen Kilgariff?

  He survives.

• 1:09:19Georgia Hardstark?

  What?

• 1:09:20Karen Kilgariff?

  Because he's a survivor.

• 1:09:22Georgia Hardstark?

  What?

• 1:09:23Karen Kilgariff?

  He's in a coma for several weeks. When he wakes up from that coma, he's back in prison.

• 1:09:27Georgia Hardstark?

  No. I mean, yeah, I figured, but no.

• 1:09:30Karen Kilgariff?

  You gotta figure, but still coma nightmare. Over time, Michelle makes a complete recovery.

• 1:09:36Georgia Hardstark?

  What the fuck? You got shot in the head, bro. This guy is...

• 1:09:39Karen Kilgariff?

  He's made of Kevlar.

• 1:09:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:41Karen Kilgariff?

  He doesn't give a shit. He's like, he's gonna fight till the end.

• 1:09:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:45Karen Kilgariff?

  Which I love.

• 1:09:45Georgia Hardstark?

  That's sexy.

• 1:09:46Karen Kilgariff?

  I love it. His relationship with Nadine does not last, unfortunately.

• 1:09:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Come on, never.

• 1:09:51Karen Kilgariff?

  They never do.

• 1:09:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Have two people been more perfect for each other?

• 1:09:54Karen Kilgariff?

  And also in every fight, I bet it was because of this. In every fight, she's like, "Oh, really?

• 1:09:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Are you gonna take helicopter lifts?" Like, she has the one up on him permanently.

• 1:10:03Georgia Hardstark?

  She does. Men don't like that.

• 1:10:04Karen Kilgariff?

  No. So from the English language sources that Maren can find, it's unclear why they broke up.

• 1:10:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 1:10:11Karen Kilgariff?

  But it's not unclear to me. It's not unclear to anybody else. What we do know is that Nadine does end up having to serve time for helping Michelle escape. She may have grown tired of that criminal lifestyle, I would say.

• 1:10:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:25Karen Kilgariff?

  She laid it all on the line.

• 1:10:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:27Karen Kilgariff?

  At this point, they have two children.

• 1:10:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 1:10:30Karen Kilgariff?

  So not ideal for the heisty, jailbreaky lifestyle they are leading. So they part ways in 1991. After a little time passes, Michelle starts exchanging letters with a young law student named Jamila, who hears about him on the news and becomes interested in his story.

• 1:10:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 1:10:50Karen Kilgariff?

  So eventually, Jamila will also try to break Michelle out of prison.

• 1:10:55Georgia Hardstark?

  What? What is it with this dude?

• 1:10:58Karen Kilgariff?

  Right? That's what I wrote. Look, how good is that D?

• 1:11:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Is it helicopter lessons level D?

• 1:11:06Georgia Hardstark?

  It's good, good.

• 1:11:07Karen Kilgariff?

  What are we talking about?

• 1:11:07Georgia Hardstark?

  It's the real, it's the real deal.

• 1:11:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Those, the real deal, those Frenchmen. Jamila claims this is entirely her decision, which sure, in some ways it is.

• 1:11:19Georgia Hardstark?

  People manipulate you into making your own decision really easily sometimes.

• 1:11:23Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. Specifically, Jamila tries to replicate Nadine's helicopter escape. So the ex is over there going, yeah.

• 1:11:30Georgia Hardstark?

  I could do that.

• 1:11:31Karen Kilgariff?

  What choice do you have? Michelle, as you might expect, is fully in on this plan because it's his plan.

• 1:11:36Georgia Hardstark?

  It didn't work the first time.

• 1:11:38Karen Kilgariff?

  It did not.

• 1:11:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Honey.

• 1:11:40Karen Kilgariff?

  And also, but the idea that she's like after the fact, like, no, no, no, no. That was my thing where it's like, so without speaking to this person, you're like, I would like to do this exact same thing.

• 1:11:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 1:11:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Look, this is just conjecture. We don't know these people.

• 1:11:56Georgia Hardstark?

  We don't.

• 1:11:57Karen Kilgariff?

  But they, it doesn't matter anyway, because they are busted before they're ever get the chance to carry out this, the new helicopter escape.

• 1:12:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, they're a little on to it by now, probably.

• 1:12:07Karen Kilgariff?

  I think they're looking, they're probably going to be watching those letters, looking for code.

• 1:12:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Sure.

• 1:12:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Jamila actually winds up getting seven years in prison.

• 1:12:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 1:12:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Serving five for being a part of all of that planning.

• 1:12:22Georgia Hardstark?

  That's a lot.

• 1:12:23Karen Kilgariff?

  I know. It's kind of crazy. But Michelle and Jamila still get married while Michelle is incarcerated. And then in 2003, Michelle gets paroled after making a very convincing case that he has genuinely rehabilitated himself and is no longer interested in a criminal lifestyle. And he attributes that change to Jamila's love and to his decision to adopt her religion of Islam. So he is finally released from prison after serving 27 years, 17 of those years having been spent in solitary confinement.

• 1:13:00Georgia Hardstark?

  That is so long.

• 1:13:02Karen Kilgariff?

  It's crazy. And they say that that informed that when he was like, hey, look, you know, after that last plan in, you know, the 90s, he was like, look, I swear I'm not doing it anymore. Like, so.

• 1:13:17Karen Kilgariff?

  Michel is now in his 70s and he's been true to his word. He's a law-abiding citizen. He is still happily married to Jamila. In fact, they've both written their own autobiographies in French. Nadine, who seems to have returned to living a private life, also has written an autobiography.

• 1:13:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Everyone make that money.

• 1:13:36Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Make that autobiography money.

• 1:13:38Karen Kilgariff?

  Tell your helicopter lesson story.

• 1:13:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Tell your story before someone fucking tells it for you.

• 1:13:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, you might as well.

• 1:13:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, it's called Stay Sexy and Don't Get Murdered.

• 1:13:46Karen Kilgariff?

  And it's available in audiobook and hard copy.

• 1:13:49Georgia Hardstark?

  That's right.

• 1:13:49Karen Kilgariff?

  The title of Michel's book translates to Love Saved Me From Sinking. And the love, of course, is Jamila. But then there's a little helicopter on the cover. Today, Michel is a very media-friendly guy. He's given countless interviews to French reporters and documentarians. And in one interview, he's asked by a producer what he'd say to a young man who wishes to follow in his footsteps. Michel responds like this.

• 1:14:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, God.

• 1:14:15Karen Kilgariff?

  Who am I to lecture him? I think I'd say, go on, jerk. Go on, jerk, if you have the balls. But you have no idea what a high price you'll pay. And so if you lose your balls, you'll end up rotting in your own bitterness. So go right ahead. End quote. And that is the story of the many prison escapes of French criminal Michel Vajure.

• 1:14:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow. That's the Frenchest quote I've ever fucking heard in my life.

• 1:14:42Karen Kilgariff?

  And that is our theme for 2025. Go ahead, jerk, if you have the balls. But if you don't, zip it.

• 1:14:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow. That was something else. That was fun. Flirty.

• 1:14:58Karen Kilgariff?

  French?

• 1:14:58Georgia Hardstark?

  French.

• 1:14:59Karen Kilgariff?

  All the things, the three Fs we're looking for.

• 1:15:01Georgia Hardstark?

  That's right. Wow, great job.

• 1:15:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Thank you.

• 1:15:04Georgia Hardstark?

  We're back, baby.

• 1:15:04Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, 2025.

• 1:15:06Georgia Hardstark?

  All right.

• 1:15:07Karen Kilgariff?

  Hey.

• 1:15:07Georgia Hardstark?

  So I don't remember how we're ending this now, do you?

• 1:15:11Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, we can just end it like that.

• 1:15:13Georgia Hardstark?

  We could.

• 1:15:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Do you want to do one of these?

• 1:15:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Let's do one. So we asked you guys.

• 1:15:18Karen Kilgariff?

  So you do remember.

• 1:15:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Your last week, well, no, it says it at the top of this page.

• 1:15:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Your last week are like five weeks ago, we asked you, instead of what are you even doing right now, we asked you what you're excited for and what you want to manifest in 2025.

• 1:15:33Karen Kilgariff?

  Did we use the word manifest?

• 1:15:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Probably. Sounds like us. So let's just each do one. You guys sent us a bunch and we fucking love that. Thank you so much. You can keep sending them because maybe we'll keep doing these.

• 1:15:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Here, I got one. This is from Sid Scott Photo from Instagram. And Sid Scott Photo says, what am I even doing in 2025? Proudly stepping into the role of the first woman president for the University Photographers Association of America. Established in 1961, the UPAA is committed to photographic excellence through continuing education of higher ed photographers. That's cool. And then it says, despite the name, our membership spans the globe and this awesome organization has built a culture of support and skill sharing like no other group I've been a part of. I'm excited to continue to foster equity, professionalism, and camaraderie in my new lead hership role. And it's her is all caps.

• 1:16:25Georgia Hardstark?

  I get it.

• 1:16:26Karen Kilgariff?

  Did you get it?

• 1:16:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Remember, when the idea of taking something on seems scary, look closer. You're likely being presented with an opportunity for personal growth. Sidney Scott, President, UPAA.

• 1:16:39Georgia Hardstark?

  I love it. And I'm going to tell my sister to join. She's a photographer, a professional photographer.

• 1:16:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Nice. Tell her to pretend she's in college and then she can go join.

• 1:16:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, is that what it was?

• 1:16:47Karen Kilgariff?

  I think it is.

• 1:16:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay. Well, she went to college, so maybe.

• 1:16:50Karen Kilgariff?

  Maybe you can be a.

• 1:16:52Georgia Hardstark?

  She can be a.

• 1:16:52Karen Kilgariff?

  She could be a, what do you call those people?

• 1:16:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Mentor.

• 1:16:56Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, mine is from our email and the title is 2025. She's so cute. Says, hello, today's my birthday and I just listened to you ask what I'm excited for in 2025. According to the ever decreasing life expectancy in women, I am halfway through this life.

• 1:17:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Wow.

• 1:17:15Georgia Hardstark?

  And I'm oddly pumped, usually sad about my age. It hit me today. All the years I've lived, I get to live that same amount. And then it says plus some fingers crossed emoji. It's so true. I love that.

• 1:17:26Karen Kilgariff?

  Sorry, how old is this person?

• 1:17:27Georgia Hardstark?

  I don't know, but I get it. Because like I'm 44 and it's like if I live to be like 90, I still have another full lifetime to live.

• 1:17:34Karen Kilgariff?

  If you're lucky.

• 1:17:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, and I am lucky, turns out.

• 1:17:37Karen Kilgariff?

  And I am, gotcha.

• 1:17:39Georgia Hardstark?

  And then it says, "With people I am choosing in a place I love with a clear mind and heart." That's the best part. You don't have to go through childhood again.

• 1:17:45Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes, that's right. You get to be informed this time.

• 1:17:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. So it says, "I recently joined a group of 200-plus Black American women. We get together and chat and share resources, suggest doctors and safe practices. We are calling ourselves the 92%, and the support is out of this world."

• 1:18:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Nice.

• 1:18:03Georgia Hardstark?

  "It's a beautiful place to be and a loud reminder that we haven't met everyone we will love."

• 1:18:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, nice.

• 1:18:10Georgia Hardstark?

  "How lucky are we to be growing old. Thank you for helping us learn and grow. Hello 2025. May she do us right. Amen. Much love and strength, Kiana."

• 1:18:20Karen Kilgariff?

  Kiana, that is what we are looking for. That's the energy we're looking for.

• 1:18:25Georgia Hardstark?

  That was the energy we were looking for.

• 1:18:27Karen Kilgariff?

  That was the energy we're looking for.

• 1:18:28Georgia Hardstark?

  That was it. What about you? What are you manifesting in 2025, everyone? Send us fucking a message, please.

• 1:18:34Karen Kilgariff?

  Let's like, I think, I can't remember who I was saying this to, but my, the my manifestation is like, I think it was Scotty Landis on New Year's. It was just kind of like, I don't know, maybe I'll get extensions and like become a party girl. Like, I just want to keep it light.

• 1:18:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:49Karen Kilgariff?

  It would be fun to just have more fun and like be intentional about fun.

• 1:18:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:55Karen Kilgariff?

  Especially if things are gonna get hard.

• 1:18:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Yep.

• 1:18:57Karen Kilgariff?

  It's like, and we all feel, we have, we've done enough fear. We've done enough like-

• 1:19:02Georgia Hardstark?

  We've done enough girl bossing and bad bitching and hustling and scaredy cat stuff, like, right?

• 1:19:07Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes. Now it's just fun times.

• 1:19:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Let's do some fun.

• 1:19:10Karen Kilgariff?

  And, um, die mad haters.

• 1:19:15Karen Kilgariff?

  Stay salty.

• 1:19:17Georgia Hardstark?

  No, I have to do it for real.

• 1:19:19Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, no, that's not it.

• 1:19:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Thanks, everybody. This is our real New Years. It's real New Years for us now, so happy new year. Thanks for listening.

• 1:19:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Thank you.

• 1:19:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Stay sexy.

• 1:19:30Georgia Hardstark?

  And don't get murdered.

• 1:19:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Goodbye. Elvis, do you want a cookie?

• 1:19:43Speaker 02

  This has been an Exactly Right Production.

• 1:19:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Our senior producer is Alejandra Keck.

• 1:19:47Speaker 02

  Our managing producer is Hannah Kyle Creighton.

• 1:19:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Our editor is Aristotle Acevedo.

• 1:19:52Speaker 02

  This episode was mixed by Liana Scolacci.

• 1:19:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Our researchers are Maren McClashan and Ally Elkin.

• 1:19:58Speaker 02

  Email your hometowns to [email protected].

• 1:20:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Follow the show on Instagram and Facebook at MyFavoriteMurder.

• 1:20:04Speaker 02

  Goodbye.

• 1:20:11Speaker 02

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• 1:20:53Speaker 01

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• 1:21:23Speaker 02

  Calling all amateur detectives and podcast obsessives.

• 1:21:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Virgin Voyages' second True Crime Voyage sets sail March 20, 2027, for a five-night escape to Grand Turk and the Beach Club at Bimini.

• 1:21:36Speaker 02

  As part of the On Air at Sea collection, this immersive sailing brings together fan favorite podcasts, including Disgrace Land, Buried Bones, and Wise Crack, for live recordings, behind-the-scenes access, exclusive meet and greets, and crime-themed programming that you won't find anywhere else.

• 1:21:52Georgia Hardstark?

  All aboard our award-winning, kid-free ships.

• 1:21:55Speaker 02

  Head over to virginvoyages.com/truecrime to secure your spot.

• 1:21:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Goodbye.