Caleb Wilson Fever, 2020 NBA Redraftables, and the ‘Odyssey’ MVP Rankings With Joe House, J. Kyle Mann, and Jason Concepcion

The Ringer’s Bill Simmons is joined by J. Kyle Mann and Joe House to recap the NBA summer league before having a 2020 NBA redraft. Then, Jason Concepcion joins the podcast to react to Bill’s MVP rankings for ‘The Odyssey.’ (0:00) Intro (3:51) NBA summer league (25:53) 2020 NBA redraft (01:23:45) The ‘Odyssey’ MVP ballot Host: Bill Simmons Guests: J. Kyle Mann, Joe House, and Jason Concepcion Producers: Chia Hao Tat and Eduardo Ocampo The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit https://fanduel.com/playwithaplan to learn more about the resources and helplines Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Bill Simmons?

  This episode is brought to you by PayPal. The holiday rush is coming and you can get ahead of it with PayPal. Shop your favorite online stores with PayPal this season like eBay for collectibles, Fanatics for teen gear, Walmart for tech. Check out the flexibility to pay now or pay later and split your payments with Pay in Four with no interest, no late fees. Shop now with PayPal. Paying for subject to approval. Learn more at paypal.com/payingfor. PayPal, Inc., NMLS 910457. This episode is brought to you by 7up. Okay, this one's a case for conspiracy bill. Let's bring them in. Ever noticed lemon is everywhere from lemon recipes to lemon scented cleaning supplies?

• 0:43Bill Simmons?

  And when it comes to lemon lime sodas, why is lemon always first? There's a reason. A shadowy organization called the Alamonate has been padding the stats, keeping big lemon in the lead for decades. But let me tell you something, the sip is about to be flipped. 7up is fighting back, swapping lemon lime for their new lime lemon soda. Now lime comes first. 7up, flip the sip.

• 1:13Bill Simmons?

  The Bill Simmons Podcast is brought to you by PayPal. We're also brought to you by the Ringer Podcast Network where I put up a new rewatchables on Monday. We did Hitch, the Will Smith movie. It is 21 years old, one of the last really, really killer rom coms. So we had fun breaking that down. Next week on Monday, we're going to be doing a live rewatchables on Netflix on Monday, sometime in the afternoon. And I'm not going to tell you what the movie is yet. I'll tell you over the weekend what we're doing, but there's a really, really good chance you've seen it. So we're going to be going live on Netflix, rewatchables, Monday afternoon, Pacific time. So stay tuned for that.

• 1:56Bill Simmons?

  I have no Red Sox on this episode because they've won 15 straight. As I'm taping this intro, it's afternoon Wednesday. They, they had a double header today. They won one. This is one of the craziest Red Sox experiences in the history of the franchise. The team is dead. The day I had my colonoscopy, the day Jalen Brown got traded, the Red Sox lost that day. They're 37 and 48. It was my least favorite Red Sox season we've ever, probably ever had in my lifetime. There was not a single thing to like, guys getting hurt. Roman Anthony was supposed to be next Ted Williams. He's out. Crochet got hurt. Trevor Story, I think was the most expensive of the team. He's hurt. And things just flipped over the last three weeks and it's been incredible to watch.

• 2:40Bill Simmons?

  I think I'm going to, I'll do something in the last segment on Sunday about it with my dad or my friend Hanch or somebody, but it's been so much fun to watch. And my favorite guy, Wilson Contreras comes in and is carrying himself. He's the new guy, comes in in April and has this intensity in him and it doesn't fit in with the rest of the team. They have a bunch, like the team's a mess. We can't hit lefties and Roman Anthony and, and Marcelo Meyer. Like they're supposed to be the young guys that come up and they're doing nothing. And, and he has this intensity and he's around and it almost seemed like he was on the wrong team for two months. And then they sweep the Yankees. There's the stuff that happens with the Nationals where he gets kicked out of two

• 3:23Bill Simmons?

  games in a row and something flipped and he's at the center of all of it. And he's my favorite Red Sox player probably since, probably since they traded Mookie because he's just a maniac and needless to say, the Boston fans love him. He's like, somebody hits a big homerun, he's out of the dugout. He's the first guy, he's doing these, like he's just, I really feel like he's transformed the team watching him. So anyways, that's been great and I'm glad the Red Sox are good because there's no sports coming on. That's why for this podcast, you know, it's July 22nd. We're doing a redraft of the 2020 NBA draft with Kyle Mann and Joe House after we talk a little summer league. I haven't done a redraft in a while, but we're going to do that. And then Jason Concepcion came on.

• 4:07Bill Simmons?

  I have a big thing about the Odyssey. I'm going to unleash my MVP ballot for the Odyssey because I've now seen it twice. So if you haven't seen it yet, no problem. If you want to listen to the redraft and then pop out. If you have seen the Odyssey, I would highly encourage you to listen to that part with me and Jason. So that is the podcast. We're going to take a break. Pearl Jam and then Joe House and Kyle Mann.

• 4:59Bill Simmons?

  July 22nd, 2026. It can only mean one thing. Filler content.

• 5:07Bill Simmons?

  It's the one for us section of the BS podcast. Joe House is here, Kyle Mann is here. We're going to talk about, we're going to do a redraft. Haven't done a redraft in forever. I'll explain what we're doing in a second. Quickly want to hit summer league because Kyle Mann ingested a bunch of it. Joe House had, I would say a successful Wizards, A.J. DeBonsa, I like literally lost no fans, no mojo, nothing, right?

• 5:32Speaker 01

  I mean wildly successful for the Wizards. Not only did A.J. come out and, and cause my text threats to, to stop being populated with Darren Peterson clips. Everybody could F right off as soon as A.J. showed up. But on top of that, on top of that, both Trey Johnson and Will Riley showed out. Like that was to me is as important a revelation as anything because that's really, those are the elemental pieces of the trajectory for this upcoming Wizard season.

• 6:04Bill Simmons?

  It's going to be hilarious 10 years from now when people are listening to this just for the 2020 redraft and they're like, House is excited for Will Riley. Where is he? Is he in China now? It's funny with that top four, wherever you sit on the top four, you kind of got to win, Kyle. Like if you were a boozer guy, big win. He did everything that he normally does. They made the finals. He was consistent and really good. Peterson had moments where it was like, oh, this was high school Kobe version Peterson. DeBonsa looked great.

• 6:37Speaker 01

  He had some moments, he had some moments where we went, oh, and then he had some, oh, moments, but overall it was good.

• 6:43Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, he had a six for 18. He wasn't perfect, but he definitely, you know, and I thought it was interesting where he talked about, finally I'm on the ball. And there was like some veiled fuck you Bill Self stuff that, you know, it seemed like he was a little more unhappier in the college season, but then the big revelation, which was not a revelation to any of us. I was on the record as, as saying, I thought Caleb Wilson was the most undervalued guy at the draft, even at four. I think there was a real case to just trade back and he might be the best player anyway, which I don't ever normally feel that way with the draft. And he comes in and he hits threes. House, I gotta say, we're a little older than Kyle. He looked very T Mac-ish to me. That was the one that jumped out to me.

• 7:27Bill Simmons?

  I was like, this is like watching T Mac again. Like he's a little taller, he's like 610, but same kind of skinny inside, outside, but then is adding this explosive Sean Kemp side too. And if I was a Bulls fan, I would have no sperm left in my body. It would just be ejaculate in every room in my house. I would lose my mind.

• 7:48Speaker 01

  You need a jizz room for, for what that man did.

• 7:52Bill Simmons?

  It's a complete, it's like when we had the colonoscopy, it was when they give you this stuff to clean your, clean your colon out. That's what Caleb Wilson was for.

• 8:00Speaker 01

  Cleaning your nuts out.

• 8:01Bill Simmons?

  Oh my God.

• 8:02Speaker 01

  How many minutes in are we? Yeah, it's, it's, it's summer season. We're in the summer season.

• 8:10Bill Simmons?

  We're getting ready.

• 8:12Speaker 01

  Let's talk about it.

• 8:13Bill Simmons?

  Sure. House, did you see?

• 8:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, here's my question for J K M. Because the thing that jumped off the screen and he validated it through the sustained outstanding performance. I'm so glad you broke, broke the, the, the fuck label right away because I want to curse. This motherfucker, his shooting stroke is so beautiful. It's so beautiful. And this was not something that we saw, at least, you know, us normies, J K M, out of his North Carolina performance, right? If he had that stroke, he had to have had that stroke the whole time he was at North Carolina because he wasn't there for very long.

• 8:57Speaker 01

  But holy cow, he can shoot and it's absolutely effortless. He has the best stroke. He has a better looking stroke to me than Peterson. And I, I mean, I'll, I'll go ahead and fight somebody on that. I'll fight somebody on it.

• 9:10Bill Simmons?

  Peterson's pretty nice.

• 9:11Speaker 01

  I hate to fight you, House.

• 9:12Bill Simmons?

  Peterson's just like this, it's going 25 feet. But yeah, but that was the, the thing with me.

• 9:17Speaker 01

  Did you see where that man was shooting from? Did you see where Caleb was shooting from?

• 9:20Bill Simmons?

  But people were dinging Wilson with the shooting stuff. And I remember saying this to you a couple of times during the pre-draft process, like guy's a great athlete and he's competitive. He's going to figure it out. It's not like he's going to have this broken jumper for his whole career. What we didn't expect was he would figure it out in July.

• 9:36Speaker 02

  I hesitate to go like overboard and say like, oh my God, he's just learned, he just learned with, there's a before and an after kind of thing. I think he worked on it in that window between, you know, he broke his hand, he had some time off that, you know, I know he really wanted to play. I would say this, I was more excited about like the defensive stuff that he did where he was just swallowing up people. His drives and things are a little chaotic. He showed me glimpses. I'm cautious, not even cautiously, I'm very optimistic, I would say. I hesitate to like really read into the shooting stuff because he took some wild ones. They went in, credit to him for that. His shot does look good. The free throw percentage is solid. There's always been workable stuff to make you have confidence. I don't think anybody was ever, maybe some people out there who were just like, it's never going to

• 10:21Speaker 02

  happen. But when you would watch him do his little rip through fake stuff in the mid-range to get to his like turnaround stuff, it always looked good. So it was just kind of a, an opportunity thing here. I think it wouldn't surprise me if we come out a little bumpy, you know, because this was just such a crazy first. But I mean, I came out of this event being like, yeah, this, this dude is absolutely in the taxonomy of the K. I wouldn't, I don't know if I'd go T-Mac because I don't know that he's quite as, like T-Mac's handle, T-Mac's handle was so polished, you know?

• 10:50Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, but remember T-Mac, year two Raptors, go back and watch T-Mac back then. Like he wasn't anywhere close to anything that he became. Let me, because you were there, House and I weren't. What was like the it factor with him? Just being in the room with him, seeing his effect, like how he carried himself on the court during free throws, during timeouts, people with their eyes on the gym on him. What was, give us the verdict on that.

• 11:16Speaker 02

  I mean, he wanted the moment clearly, and I think that's true of all the top guys. All the top dudes were, to the point where they were chasing it a little bit and it got a little ugly as a result of that, but I don't really begrudge it. They were wanting to put on a show and that's what summer league's for, you know? Cam Boozer didn't really do that because he just doesn't do that. Like, you know, you remember last year, you know, Cooper, even Cooper is competitive and psychotic as he is. He got caught up in the bright lights and tried to put on a show. But Caleb just has a smiley confidence about him and he's just very sure of the work that he's put in.

• 11:50Speaker 02

  Even, even if it's chaotic this year in terms of like the percentages and the outcome and stuff like that, it'd be really hard to bet against him not having just a continued upward trajectory. I was, I was going to say, he's kind of in that taxonomy of like a KG type body and maybe, and put the Sean Kemp in there too. If you just watch him, I clipped this out on, on Twitter. If you just watch where he starts and where he finishes without much momentum, without bending his knees at all, Wilson can get to ceilings that other people can't get to and he does it faster. Like he doesn't really need much of a load up or a runway to do it. He's just such an impressive athlete, man. Like breathtaking.

• 12:28Bill Simmons?

  House, FanDuel Rookie of the Year odds right now. I'm not allowed to bet.

• 12:33Bill Simmons?

  Who do you think is the favorite?

• 12:38Speaker 02

  Boozer.

• 12:40Bill Simmons?

  That is correct. Plus 290. Who do you think is second?

• 12:46Speaker 02

  Caleb.

• 12:48Bill Simmons?

  Peterson, plus 310.

• 12:50Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 12:50Bill Simmons?

  And then Caleb and AJ tied at four to one.

• 12:55Bill Simmons?

  But I don't remember a Rookie of the Year where we had four choices kind of clustered together as the top four. And I honestly don't know what the best bet is, but I would say from even what we saw in summer league and what we saw the teams do in the summer, the Wizards are going to be a little bit more of a complete team. I don't know if AJ's going to have the usage rate and they, they seem, I don't know whether Davis is saying all the right things because they're actually going to trade him and he's playing the game right now or whatever, but all those guys were there. They made a big show of like, hey, we think we're going to be pretty good this year. So you have that. Boozer is going to be on a Memphis team that I think he's going to be exactly what we thought. 19 and 10, 20 and 10, somewhere in there. Peterson, who knows? And then Caleb is the one to

• 13:40Bill Simmons?

  me that I just feel like he's going to have the ball a lot and they're going to put everything on him in year one. I don't, and I don't know why they wouldn't. And I think he wants it. And it's not like, it's not like there's a ton of stuff on the Bulls anyway, where it's like, oh, that guy's going to take stuff or this guy. I just think, if I was a Bulls fan, I'd be out of my mind. They've been waiting for this since Derrick Rose got hurt, basically. So who would you take out of those four, just out of curiosity, Kyle?

• 14:06Speaker 02

  For Rookie of the Year?

• 14:07Bill Simmons?

  Right now.

• 14:09Speaker 02

  I think they're going to be high highs of like scoring output from Peterson. It's going to be pretty predictable, I think. It's probably why they have Cam Boozer number one. I just think Cam's going to be very productive and very steady and really contribute to winning. Like I think he's going to make that Grizzlies team make a lot of sense in a more direct, you know, DeBons is not going to have the opportunity to do this directly and like be the centerpiece guy. I, on the Ringer NBA show, I compared it to the way that Tatum came in. Granted, not one to one. It's just, you've got some older players ahead and like he's going to come in and be this very talented dude, but not just like overtly given the keys immediately in the way that, in the way that Boozer will. So I, I understand who Boozer number one and I'd probably pick him for that reason.

• 14:50Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, Tatum was over, a lot of times just in the corner, like a stretch four, three and D type guy, and they would have to kind of nudge him to be more involved. And, you know, I remember Veronique on column about it during the playoffs, like, yo, like, let's give this guy the car keys a little bit. Like there's more here. We need, we actually need the offense. I think AJ will probably want it. And then the other big winner, you know, Brown did what we would have expected. I, I still think the question for him was never talent, but durability. We'll see in December, January. But Burries was the one that I think surprised some people, not us. We, we were calling for it, but, you know, he had the ball more and guess what? Like that's how he played his whole

• 15:32Bill Simmons?

  career except for last year. House, if you're the Clippers, are you gritting your teeth at all? Right now?

• 15:41Speaker 02

  I don't know.

• 15:42Bill Simmons?

  You didn't take the obvious two guard that was sitting there and you got seduced by this Wogler and now you're playing him and Garland together when you just had this very obvious two guard you could have put in?

• 15:54Speaker 02

  It's hard to say because the Clippers are on a project timeline now, right? Aren't they officially like their?

• 16:04Bill Simmons?

  And Adam Silver is ramming it in our bumholes? Project? What project is it?

• 16:09Speaker 02

  They are not poised to be successful this season or next season or any season that I can think of in the next five seasons. So the investment in, I mean, Wogler's so young. He still has a little bit of the baby deer look to him, the way he's coming out. Burries is literally the only shining hope for, for an equally horrible Bucks team that is also going to be excruciating over the next five years.

• 16:40Bill Simmons?

  And Tyler Hero.

• 16:43Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 16:43Bill Simmons?

  A little chip on his shoulder and a little tiny welt under his eye after he got into the fan.

• 16:49Speaker 02

  You're right about that. I just want to make the case for Caleb Wilson to win Rookie of the Year and I'm going to bet it a little bit now and then we'll see how everything shakes out. I, I do agree with both of you guys in terms of AJ not getting enough opportunity usage. The, the whiz are too far along. I wonder about Peterson getting enough opportunities. I think the Jazz will try.

• 17:13Bill Simmons?

  Lot of, lot of shots on that team already.

• 17:15Speaker 02

  Yeah. And that's a pretty polished team. Like we, we all are pretty bullish on their playoff prospects. I don't think they're just going to turn the ball over to Peterson. Caleb, this is the thing with the Rookie of the Year. It is a narrative award. Like it's counting stats and narrative. So if Caleb shows us a couple, a handful of spectacular games, he, he has some 40-point scoring output. You're like Boozer's going to be 19 and 10 and Caleb layers on top of that, a handful of these games where these blocks come from absolutely out of nowhere. And if he averages like two blocks a game or something like that, which feels kind of reasonable to me, you, you made the right point. The Bulls have absolutely nothing to showcase other than this

• 18:00Speaker 02

  dude. And it's Tiago Splitter at the helm, who will understand the mission, I think. And just ushered in, a guy that we're about to talk about on this podcast, he knows how to take a guy, you know, the ascending and give, turn the whole thing over to that ascending guy. Denny Avdeya certainly enjoyed Tiago Splitter's time. Tiago at the helm of this Bulls team with, with Caleb and what they want to do in terms of engendering some enthusiasm. I'm, just, just him at that four to one range feels like a tiny bit of value to me.

• 18:31Bill Simmons?

  You left out the single best case for Caleb Wilson.

• 18:35Speaker 02

  Let's hear it.

• 18:35Bill Simmons?

  He's gonna, out of all these guys, he's going to be the social media guy. He's going to have 50 plays during this season that my son will know happen, right?

• 18:44Speaker 02

  Well, that's why I meant spectacular.

• 18:46Bill Simmons?

  But this is a whole different element to

• 18:48Speaker 02

  Great point.

• 18:48Bill Simmons?

  who owns the Rookie of the Year. It's like, can my son Ben Simmons, the only working Ben Simmons right now, can my son Ben Simmons know you did something? Because he's not going to be watching Bulls games on League Pass, but if you do something that's going to be on TikTok or Instagram, he's going to see it. And I think Caleb, it's not just like, he might have a game where he might hit 10 threes. He might have the dunk in traffic. He might have the spin boot move, double clutch, Sean Kemp dunk. He might have some crazy pin block on the backboard, but killing all that stuff. Listen, my rule is always is never overreact to summer league and we're trying not to. But I do think Caleb hitting threes was the one big picture like, oh, wow, like this is, holy shit.

• 19:29Bill Simmons?

  There's nobody in the league like this guy. House, really quickly, Washington Wizards, 35 plus wins.

• 19:39Bill Simmons?

  Minus 110.

• 19:41Speaker 02

  I mean, that makes exactly perfect sense, right? They're a 35-win team. I, I have, I'm on record, I think they're going to come in last in the Southeast Division and win between 35 and 39 teams and contend for the play-in, contend for the play-in. That's what I think.

• 19:55Bill Simmons?

  Forty, 40 wins, plus 240.

• 19:59Speaker 02

  Nah.

• 20:00Bill Simmons?

  No? If you keep Davis all year and he plays like 68 games?

• 20:04Speaker 02

  So that's the bet. That's the bet, right?

• 20:06Bill Simmons?

  If Davis plays 65 to 68 games, I think you're a 40-win team.

• 20:10Speaker 02

  I don't want to bet on either one of those things. Defensively, man, I've said this throughout. I, I think it could be pretty interesting. If you can have, if you can have DeBons, Assar and Davis at your three, four, five, that is a rangy, disruptive defensive group. I mean, you think about all the, the other teams in the East. I mean Miami, obviously with the addition of Giannis. I'm just trying to rattle through and think of the teams that can compare or compete with that. Pretty, pretty promising, pretty, pretty good.

• 20:36Bill Simmons?

  Boston with Paul George.

• 20:40Speaker 02

  We forgot to say giddy, giddy.

• 20:42Bill Simmons?

  So much fun.

• 20:43Speaker 02

  Yeah. With, with Caleb Wilson, that is going to be a very fun toy to throw.

• 20:47Bill Simmons?

  And Booze Alice.

• 20:48Speaker 02

  Well, I was just saying, one thing giddy can do is throw lobs. And I think that's going to be, that alone is going to be a social media phenomenon, those two together for sure.

• 20:57Bill Simmons?

  The other one that jumped out was Yaxel, which was no surprise because he's almost 24 years old. But I think if you're a Warriors fan, you know, you're at least getting somebody who's going to be playing 25 to 28 minutes a game that he didn't have last year. And we'll see what happens with LeBron, but you know, Butler comes back February, March range. Still not enough, but you know, can, can Steph Curry at least get to the playoffs and be relatively interesting? Yaxle is going to help, but they, I still think they need LeBron.

• 21:26Speaker 02

  Did you, uh, did you like the Yaxle Boozer rivalry? I feel like this is a budding thing that people aren't talking about.

• 21:32Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I like it.

• 21:33Speaker 02

  Their personalities are just so polar opposite. You know, Yaxle just can't not say whatever he's thinking and Boozer is just quietly intensely staring at you. You could tell they don't, I don't, I don't know for sure. I just, I don't suspect they like each other competitively. I'm just keeping an eye on that one. And they matched up twice in the, in the summer league.

• 21:50Bill Simmons?

  Well, the only thing, the only real big picture thing left is wherever LeBron goes. And it's just, you know, I went on game over yesterday with Richard Max because I was in the office and I was there and I'm going on for 45 minutes. But the really red flag thing about this LeBron thing, which I don't really feel like is going to swing the title odds in any direction, at least for me. But it is notable that James Harden hasn't signed and Draymond hasn't signed. So you have two teams that are definitely going, you know, Golden State doing nothing is also doesn't mean nothing. It means they must feel like they're in this, so we'll see what happens with that. I still, I still hope it's Golden State, but I still have a feeling it's going to be Cleveland all along.

• 22:35Bill Simmons?

  I do have a, House, before we do the redraft, I had, I had a great email for you. This is from Harry, who, who did a, he paged Conspiracy Bill, who's always available.

• 22:50Speaker 02

  Do you were a beeper for that?

• 22:51Bill Simmons?

  No, but he's, he's, he's just, every time there's an email, Conspiracy Bill, Conspiracy Bill jostles. He mentioned, uh, Presti, OKC roster crunch, they have to get rid of, they got rid of Isaiah Drew, they got rid of Aaron Wiggins, right? And then, uh, we knew they were going to probably get rid of Lou Dort, which they did. They got three second rounders for him.

• 23:13Bill Simmons?

  Harry says, I 100% believe Sam Presti sought out not one, but two Hawks deals to beef them up this season and knock their first round pick owned by San Antonio down a few spots.

• 23:28Speaker 02

  Very good.

• 23:29Bill Simmons?

  Pretty good. Conspiracy Bill, like he stamped that one immediately. I liked it.

• 23:33Speaker 02

  Absolutely. I endorse this.

• 23:34Bill Simmons?

  It's not like he got a lot for Lou Dort, right? He's got a couple of seconds. I'm sure there were a few teams that would have offered that, but I wonder, so you think Presti is that devious?

• 23:44Speaker 02

  Sure. Anything, they understand who their, their nemesis is, of course. That doesn't even sound like conspiracy to me. That just sounds like strategy. That sounds smart.

• 23:52Bill Simmons?

  J K M is right. J K M is right. I want to go on record on LeBron. I think he's going to Philadelphia. Just want to say, get it out there. Oh, wow. I would bet anything against that.

• 24:02Speaker 02

  Okay, that's fine. I just want to be on record.

• 24:04Bill Simmons?

  Okay.

• 24:05Speaker 02

  What do you want to bet? Let's bet something good.

• 24:06Bill Simmons?

  We'll bet a dinner that has food.

• 24:09Speaker 02

  Yes, done.

• 24:10Bill Simmons?

  And then there's another Conspiracy Bill email. Stuart from Perth, Australia said, does Conspiracy Bill think Dumars was sent to the Pelicans by the NBA where he worked to make the Pelicans so bad that they would have to relocate to Seattle?

• 24:25Bill Simmons?

  I was watching the movie Major League and couldn't help but think they took notes watching on how to get a team relocated. What team goes 26 and 56 and literally does nothing in the off season? It's a very solid point. They went 26 to 56 and did nothing other than give DeAndre Jordan a two-year deal.

• 24:42Speaker 02

  DeAndre Jordan to an amazing contract. They did. That's not nothing. It's a bet on development. That's, I think that's what it is. That is literally, now that it's them going to Seattle makes no sense whatsoever because Seattle is going to get one of the expansion teams. But what markets are ripe for an NBA team? Seattle and Vegas obviously lead, but where, where should the Pelicans go? They should go somewhere.

• 25:05Bill Simmons?

  Honestly, Kansas City's, I think, a bigger factor than people.

• 25:09Speaker 02

  Interesting.

• 25:10Bill Simmons?

  They just hosted World Cup. That city's built for like big events now and they used to have basketball before. I think Kyle's neck of the woods is another one. I think Nashville, even though it's too close to Memphis is possible. I wouldn't rule out St. Louis. I think there's a lot of cities. Like we never would have said Oklahoma City in the mid 2000s. You know, if you have, if you have hungry, local, rich people and you have some sort of arena, you can make a play for a basketball team. Conspiracy Bill got another one. Mike in New Orleans wanted to know if the Blazers owner, did Conspiracy Bill think the league wants to get back in Seattle? Gave this guy the team. He was going to force his way out and barge them to Seattle. I actually don't believe that one because I don't think the Seattle fans want Portland's team.

• 25:55Bill Simmons?

  I think they would rather have their own expansion team and start over and they know what it's like to have your team ripped from you. And I don't think they want Portland's team. And I also don't think that's why he's doing this. I just think he's super cheap and this is what he did with the Hurricanes. He, he has a specific method of he cut costs all over the place. And you know, he's, he's basically like, you guys should help me buy an arena.

• 26:20Bill Simmons?

  Or I might move. So how much do you want the Blazers here? I don't agree with what he's doing. It's absolutely the most cutthroat thing you could do, but I don't think there's some master plan. I just think the guy's cutthroat across the board and that's why he's handling it. Well, speaking of cutthroat, we're going to take a break. We are going to do our first redraft on the BS podcast. I think since the 2018, we did a 2022 range. Is that 2023? We did it three years ago.

• 26:49Speaker 02

  You didn't do one since then?

• 26:50Bill Simmons?

  No, no, we did, we did one in honor of Chart, so we're going to bring up in this one we're about to do. But when we come back, the 2020 NBA redraft next.

• 27:00Speaker 03

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• 27:55Bill Simmons?

  All right. So as you know, I remember nothing from 2020 or 2021. I have no memory at all. Apparently I did 14 NBA redraft podcasts. You guys were on a bunch of them.

• 28:06Bill Simmons?

  We did 14 on my podcast and on the Book of Basketball podcast where a lot of them aren't. It was super fun and never did them again. And during the summer, because there's absolutely nothing going on for the next couple of weeks, we're going to do a couple of redrafts. And I texted you guys and we talked about possibilities and the one we landed on is the single weirdest draft in the history of the league, other than maybe 1986? What's weirder, 1986 or 2020, House?

• 28:31Speaker 02

  Uh, 2020 is super weird.

• 28:33Bill Simmons?

  1986 had like, not only the tragedy of the Lembias, but half the guys in that draft became drug guys or, you know, it was like the most jinxed weird draft ever. But we didn't know that it was just happening. 2020, we knew right away. So 2020 COVID draft takes place on November 18th, 2020. Let's start there.

• 28:54Speaker 02

  I forgot about that.

• 28:55Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 28:55Speaker 02

  I was thinking it was June. Yeah, that's right.

• 28:58Bill Simmons?

  Six weeks after the NBA finals in the bubble, which was even weirder. The season started five weeks later. They had no March Madness to study because there was no March Madness. They had no draft combine because they couldn't have draft combine. They had, for the most part, Zoom interviews. They had prospects only going one-on-zero workouts, basically with masks on a lot of the times. These guys, they went from getting ready for March Madness to there's no more college basketball to I'm just going to work out by myself in a gym for four to five months, basically.

• 29:35Bill Simmons?

  They kind of ramp up the process near the end and they're basically, House, they're just fucking grasping at straws. It's the only draft where we can honestly say NBA teams were just like us. They're just watching YouTube and just kind of piecing things together and guessing.

• 29:56Speaker 01

  You can't overstate how weird it was. I'm glad, you know, you, it's not fair to compare this to 1986. The whole world was upended and every single element of, you know, an evaluation of talent for a professional sports league. It's kind of asinine in a way, except it's the business, it's the industry.

• 30:17Bill Simmons?

  There's no other way to do it.

• 30:18Speaker 01

  They did it. They did it. And I'm thrilled that they did it. I actually kind of loved the way that that season played out because we had so much basketball in our, in our lives. There was no dead moment, you know, there was no, uh, let's stay, I'll take a breather. It went from, wow, that was really fun to have the bubble. That was, gave us something to look at and compare notes on and talk about.

• 30:39Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 30:40Speaker 01

  Right into this super weird draft, uh, and then right into a season that began, was it like Christmas-ish, right after Christmas?

• 30:47Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. I think there was a real physical toll on some of the players that lasted long in the playoffs and then had to start the season. That was the only downside for the fans. It was great because we had nothing going on. It's like, oh, thank you. I have things to watch again.

• 31:00Speaker 02

  Well, I remember the burnout among people covering it. I remember when they came back, you know, granted, the physical toll is a whole different thing, but I just remember when they came back at Christmas. And then at the end of that season, I guess extending it to summer league and free agency, I just remember the fried look in people's eyes. From, from the toll of that, because we were trying to stay busy during that gap where the season ended. I remember we were doing all kinds of stuff like the redrafts and I did a bunch of historical stuff. Granted, we remember the, the wind in our sails with the last dance and all that stuff, man. I think one of the things with the last dance that people forget is how bad we needed that shit, man. I mean, like, people were just so desperate for anything and that alone kept us busy. That big Jordan sort of sweeping wind that came in for a while there.

• 31:44Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. Russell and I were doing live podcasts after the two episodes of the last dance, like they were sporting events because we had literally nothing else going. So the actual draft.

• 31:55Bill Simmons?

  When you look back at who the best players and we're going to do the redraft and people can hear it in real time. But I think it's the most off people, teams have been for who actually turned out to be the good players versus where they were drafted. Like for instance, so in the actual draft, Edwards was one. LaMelo was three.

• 32:16Bill Simmons?

  Tyrese Maxey was 21. Desmond Bain was 30. Right? So Wiseman went two and Wiseman is the guy I think to think about when you think about this draft. Because they're basically going off three Memphis games.

• 32:33Bill Simmons?

  And nothing else. And now you're going back to high school tape and now you're just looking at raw tools and it's one of those things where if we had had March Madness, I just think so much of this is different. Like what if Halliburton goes on a run? You know, in the tournament and makes like the final four, the final eight. What if Wiseman gets knocked out in the first round? What if LaMelo's terrible? Oh no, LaMelo was in New Zealand. Yeah. So that LaMelo's even out on that. What if, what if Edwards like gets knocked out in the first, like, I do think March Madness swings this stuff one way or the other, but in this case it didn't.

• 33:11Bill Simmons?

  And, uh, and but Wiseman is the one, Kyle, that I think we had the toughest time trying to figure out. I went back and our old friend Sharks, who did all the draft grades after, and the words take Wiseman second and Sharks writes, this is simultaneously the safest pick and biggest gamble at the top of the draft. Quality big men are easy to find in the modern NBA. Wiseman has to be elite to be worth going this high. So where did you stand when they took Wiseman? Did you feel like he had a chance to be elite?

• 33:44Speaker 02

  I remember having a similar sort of trepidation that Sharks did, granted, because we were talking about the draft constantly around that time. I had watched Wiseman a whole lot in high school coming up to that weird Memphis season. The other thing too, is just the fact that it was the Warriors making that pick. That was the thing that made me the most suspicious because the things that are the most worried, because the things that Wiseman needed to work on. This, the Warriors kind of conversation about them extending this window, like House, I was watching your face as Bill was talking about the Warriors potentially being in the playoffs and he had a like no fucking way look on his face. Uh, but, but I mean, at that point we were like, hey, I think there's still some more soap in that rag.

• 34:26Speaker 02

  And there was like, they went and won a title despite this not working out. But the things that he needed to work on. Subsequently, Kaminga, the following year, uh, I think it was 21. I was looking at those dudes and just thinking, man, offensively raw, absolutely not ready for the speed of the way the Warriors want to play. That worried me. And then you combine, it was a lot of fog. If you, you're projecting the tape, the college development that we didn't really get to see, even at the time it was risky. I think I thought that it was, I thought that he could become a good player. I did not expect him to fall off a cliff the way that he did. And, you know, not even in the league now, so.

• 35:02Bill Simmons?

  House, my biggest win from this draft was absolutely loved Halliburton and thought he should have gone way higher than he did and went nuts about that the whole draft. So that was a huge W for me. My biggest loss was I liked the Wiseman pick for the Warriors. I was like, great pick. Like passing center, unbelievable specimen. The guy a year ago would have been hands down the number one pick in the draft. And this is amazing that they got a franchise center. And it just didn't work out for a variety of reasons, but I, I think the biggest one is I don't, I just don't think they had enough tape and you start drafting the premise of a player versus what the actual player is, you know? What'd you think of it when that happened?

• 35:43Speaker 01

  Um, at that point, the Warriors had engendered so much, uh, you know, confidence and trust in a kind of a, a, approach to both, you know, player development, player acquisition that I didn't know anything about Wiseman, but gave them the benefit of the doubt. Um, but there is a through line all the way up to right now, this very moment. And my wild skepticism about the Warriors making the playoffs this upcoming season, between missing on that pick and, and, and today, the end of Steph's career that we've been experiencing, lost seasons, missed playoffs. After they won the title, they did eke out one more title. So God bless them in 2022 with, with, uh,

• 36:28Speaker 01

  what they were able to put together.

• 36:30Bill Simmons?

  James Wiseman, NBA champion.

• 36:32Speaker 01

  I feel, I feel like we, you know, we're missing out on something because of the toll on Steph. And, you know, the way that Steph's career is, is, is going to end. If that pick had been somebody solid, somebody credible, what would that have meant for the Warriors franchise? And ultimately for Steph, who's really the only guy I care about.

• 36:54Speaker 02

  Bill, did you see the thing that I wrote in that draft guide? Did the specific thing that I said about Halliburton was like, the league should be doing everything they can to not let this kid end up with Golden State. I specifically said that because that was, he would have been perfect for their style of play.

• 37:08Bill Simmons?

  He was who I wanted them to take, but they could not trade back and they weren't going to take him at two. But I think they knew out of anybody in this top 12, that's the guy that if he's on our team, would fit perfectly with us and could play on the ball, off the ball. But I don't, nobody wanted to, you know, they tried to trade back. Nobody was trying to trade up. Cause nobody could figure out the top seven or eight in this draft, especially like you had Patrick Williams there, you had Akoro. Nobody could unlock LaMelo at all. The Warriors thought about LaMelo too. And I've talked about this before on the pod, but they had a Zoom interview with him that was so bad, like they felt like he,

• 37:47Bill Simmons?

  you know, was tanking the interview not to go there. And I, he probably might've, that might've been what happened. I don't think he wanted to play for them. So they were kind of stuck. They weren't going to take Patrick Williams or Akoro. They weren't going to take a Kung Fu. They weren't going to take Killian Hayes. So if you can't trade back, I don't know what you do. So they took the swing with Wiseman and they're still paying for it.

• 38:10Speaker 02

  Can you, like, think about what an abandonment of philosophy, I've said this so many times. You get Steph under these circumstances where this guy is misevaluated in terms of where the league is going, level to level. And they get so lucky that, that Khan takes, you know, Johnny Flynn and Ricky Rubio ahead and just with its backward facing thinking. And then you get this opportunity to take this guy, Tyrese Halliburton, and you say to yourself, well, two's too high. I just feel like anytime you have that type of conversation with yourself about a player where you're like, well, that's, that's too high to take that guy. If you like that person, just take them, like figure out a way to get them, even if it's like go back a couple of spots. Like it just, it's such a, like a shocking, remarkable abandonment of philosophy

• 38:55Speaker 02

  that they would strike gold with Steph and then failed to see what happened there and then not take Tyrese Halliburton. When he was so clearly the guy, like gonna be a good player.

• 39:03Bill Simmons?

  There was one thing though, there's one thing that teams didn't like about him. I remember specifically one team in the top 10 telling me this. Teams were worried he wouldn't be able to get his release off on his shot in the pros. And they're like in the college fine and the pros at that hitch, it just takes too long to unfurl. It's not going to happen. And, you know, I, I remember saying this at the time. It goes in, like what the fuck do you guys want? Like the shot goes in. It's not like this is a long baseball swing that you get to the majors and you're not going to be able to catch up at 98. Like his shot was weird, but it always went in and the advanced stats were unbelievable for him.

• 39:42Bill Simmons?

  You know, I remember Heral Bob talked about this. He was like doing everything possible to try to get Dallas to try to trade up, especially, you know, the biggest legacy of this draft is Halliburton falls and keeps falling and then ends up going to ironically Sacramento, a team that could never do anything right in the draft. Um, so he goes 12. So to, uh, to recap the top 15 for people, Edwards goes to Minnesota. Wiseman, Golden State, number two. LaMelo Ball to Charlotte. Then we have the Patrick Williams, Isaac Akoro shit sandwich combo, four, five. Chicago, Cleveland, who then ended up getting traded for each other a couple of years later and both teams still unhappy after that. Uh, Akungu at six.

• 40:24Bill Simmons?

  Killian Hayes at seven. Uh, shout out to our friend KOC, but this was, KOC's had so many wins. He still carries the Killian Hayes like a scarlet letter. This was his worst one, but he's also had a lot of good ones. Obi Toppin, eight to the Knicks. And that really should have been a Halliburton team. Like first of all, Detroit taking Killian Hayes over Tyrese Halliburton is fireable and everyone did get fired.

• 40:51Bill Simmons?

  Obi Toppin versus Halliburton when the Knicks, they didn't have Brunson yet, like, oh, man.

• 40:57Speaker 02

  They needed playmaking, if I remember correctly, at that point.

• 41:00Bill Simmons?

  They, he was perfect for them.

• 41:03Speaker 01

  He did, though, in fairness, Toppin felt like the surest thing at the moment. What did you write about Toppin, J K M?

• 41:11Speaker 02

  I wasn't writing the guide at that point, but he, he was just crazy. He was a little older. He played four years at Dayton, I remember. And he was, he was just this elite athlete that we thought could turn into a big time defender. And I mean, there's more stuff to unpack in relation to Halliburton specifically, I think that's interesting as we like, we rank these guys, but no, Kevin, Charks were doing the writing at that point on, on the guys.

• 41:34Bill Simmons?

  Got it, got it, got it. I think Sharks had, uh, hold on, I'm calling it up. Sharks had a great draft guide. He basically, all the A's he handed out were the right A's except for, um, except for, uh, Killian Hayes.

• 41:48Speaker 02

  I'll kill you.

• 41:48Bill Simmons?

  That was a bad one. Yeah, I remember he said something about Toppin, like he's the oldest and most ready pro player, but can't guard anybody. Like he's athletic. There's clearly a way for him to succeed in the NBA, but just remember he will not be able to guard anybody in the court and that's out, bore out. So Toppin went to, uh, the Knicks. At number nine, your Wizard's house, Denny Abdiya.

• 42:13Bill Simmons?

  Some pick in retrospect.

• 42:15Speaker 02

  Great pick.

• 42:16Speaker 01

  One of the best of the decade.

• 42:17Bill Simmons?

  It's too bad, it's too bad you gave him away four years later.

• 42:21Speaker 01

  They, it was, it was a franchise in, in, in transition.

• 42:28Speaker 01

  The pick was right.

• 42:29Bill Simmons?

  At number 10, the worst and most egregious mistake in this draft, an incredible what if, a fireable offense, uh, Phoenix takes Jalen Smith. Instead of taking Tyrese Halliburton, when they already had Chris Paul and they had Devin Booker. And they go on to make the finals anyway in 2021 and Halliburton could have been the third guard in that team. And I'm guessing he swings the finals if he's on the, I feel like that's worth one of those six games. If you just go from Jalen Smith, who you're getting nothing for, to Tyrese Halliburton as a rookie coming off the bench and being able to, it's, it was terrible and it happened. I can't believe they did it.

• 43:14Bill Simmons?

  So take him 10 and then, uh, Devin Vassell is 11, which I was okay with. Just cause I felt like he dropped two, I would take in Halliburton there too. And then finally Sacramento 12. And then after that, the draft gets weird. Kira Lewis to, uh, New Orleans. Aaron Neesmith to Boston at 14, Cole Anthony at 15 to Orlando. Stewart at 16 to Portland. And then we can end on

• 43:39Bill Simmons?

  number 17, Poku.

• 43:43Bill Simmons?

  Who became an incredible source of comedy, um, all the way around, but there's more stuff coming. Let's do the redraft. Um, which one of you guys wants the number one pick?

• 43:57Speaker 02

  J K M can have it.

• 43:59Bill Simmons?

  All right. So we'll go, we'll go snake fashion.

• 44:04Bill Simmons?

  J K M goes one, House goes two. I'll take three and four, and then we'll snake it back and we'll see who can come up with the best team. So who is your number one pick in the 2020 redraft comment?

• 44:16Speaker 02

  This, uh, this was an interesting back and forth because I'd put these guys in tiers. There are two guys in my top tier. It's Anthony Edwards is ultimately who I'm going to pick, although I will say this is very, very close for me. And the only thing that tipped it in its way is the fact that I'm not sure that Halliburton's going to be, I don't know what he's going to be after this injury. As I was sitting down and kind of looking at their paths as players, like developmentally, there are really interesting sides of an offensive coin where Halliburton came into the league as this like super, super advanced passer processor who we were like, if he can score the ball, we just weren't sure about it. We were like, well, you know, we know he has all these gifts, but

• 44:57Speaker 02

  if he's going to be a superstar, and I don't feel like he even answered that question until like a few years into his NBA career. There was still doubt about it. It was, you know, once he got to the Pacers, it was like, okay, this guy is a system in and of himself. And I don't think you can say that necessarily about Ant, you know, I don't know that Ant's impact on a team like chemistry wise and the way he plays. I don't think he elevates and adds value to other players the same way that Halliburton does. That said, Ant is one of the best, you know, he's, I think in this class, he's the leader in made threes. He's, when he wants to, he can be an on ball terror. He's one of the most athletic, creative scorers in the league. He's ultra competitive. Um, it's very, very close, but just tilting towards Ant health wise,

• 45:38Speaker 02

  uh, is, is what I'll ultimately do here, even though it's a pretty tough choice, but those two guys to me are in the top tier.

• 45:44Bill Simmons?

  I had that as well. Ant, two conference finals, 26 a game in the playoffs, two second team on NBA's on the, uh, 24 Olympic team. House, not 25 years old left, uh, yet has scored over 10,000 points, 10,854. That's a list of seven guys who scored 10,000 points before they turned 25. The other guys in that list are LeBron James, Luca, T Mac, Kevin Durant, Kobe and Carmelo.

• 46:13Bill Simmons?

  Nice list.

• 46:14Speaker 01

  Pretty good list.

• 46:14Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. So he's, he's on his way. He's averaging 25, four and five, um, for his career. Sharks wrote that he's an elite athlete with a better feel for the game than advertised. All the physical tools necessary to become an all-star caliber wing. And I actually think he's probably a notch above that. He, he's been twice now, he's been a franchise guy in a final four team, which I think is notable. So did you have him first?

• 46:41Speaker 01

  Oh, what kind of question is that? Yes, he's, he's facing the league shit. I mean,

• 46:46Bill Simmons?

  Kyle was waffling.

• 46:48Speaker 01

  No, I understand the analysis. I really do. Let, let's set some parameters here because, um, this will factor into, uh, I have my selection for, for, for two overall, but are we basing this on at the time, what the team needed, the trajectory of the player? Are we basing this on kind of now, we have a lot of information about these players and we know what these players have in front of them.

• 47:15Bill Simmons?

  We're in a time machine. We're going back to November 18th, 2020, but we know everything that's happened the last six years. So what do you do?

• 47:23Speaker 01

  It's still Edwards. It's not even close to me, to me. And the reason for that is because he is on another level to me in terms of the, the force of will. I mean, Halliburton was a revelation in last year's playoffs, absolutely, positively. He finally got to the stage. He finally ascended to where he could show what he brought to the table, all of those intangibles, all of those shots at the end of, of, of game. But Edwards, the, he accelerated Minnesota because of who he, he was when he arrived with that dog in him, with the incredible charisma,

• 48:05Speaker 01

  a leader at his young age, taking the team. Now, I mean, there's a lot of leadership qualities in Halliburton as, as well. But, uh, if you're trying to build, you want a cornerstone for a franchise, Edwards to me, lot easier call than, than Halliburton. That's the way I think about it.

• 48:22Bill Simmons?

  If Halliburton doesn't get hurt in game seven in Indiana, beats OKC,

• 48:27Bill Simmons?

  and he just plays last season and he's fine, is he the number one pick in this?

• 48:30Speaker 01

  It's an awesome conversation. It is an incredible, um, conversation.

• 48:35Bill Simmons?

  I think he'd have to be at that point, but we'll never know. It's a great what if. Well, you're going to take him second, I'm guessing?

• 48:40Speaker 01

  I am, but I would just want to make a case for Maxi, which is.

• 48:44Bill Simmons?

  I'll take Maxi third and we can talk about it. Halliburton, Halliburton at number two, best guy in a finals team already. 38 playoff games in 24 and 25, 18, five and eight, um, some incredible clutch heroics. And then one of the saddest moments in the history of the league, when he gets hurt in game seven. We talked about all the, um, what ifs with him in the draft, Golden State at two, Detroit seven, Knicks eight, Phoenix 10. There's another what if where Philly could have traded Ben Simmons for him.

• 49:18Bill Simmons?

  Instead of how it turned out, where Halliburton goes with the Sacramento, Indiana, straight up. Philly could have been in on that and ended up with, you know, Sabonis going into Indiana or whatever it turned out. Or they could have just done this straight up and sent Ben Simmons to, um, Sacramento. And you could have had Maxi, who's going to be the third guy in this draft with, with Halliburton.

• 49:39Speaker 02

  Philly also could have had Shay and Mikail Bridges, if I'm not mistaken. They've got some pretty tough.

• 49:44Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, they have a lot of what ifs. They also could have taken Tatum.

• 49:47Speaker 01

  They literally drafted Mikail Bridges. They did draft him.

• 49:50Speaker 02

  They took him and shipped him away.

• 49:53Bill Simmons?

  Sharks wrote that he's the perfect, this is Halliburton. He's the perfect analytical selection. An uber efficient scorer who never takes bad shots or turns the ball over and who also racks up defensive stats.

• 50:09Speaker 02

  Let me, can I make another case for, oh, go ahead. I've cut off the charts earlier. My bad, my bad.

• 50:13Bill Simmons?

  No, we're done.

• 50:14Speaker 02

  If you, if you look at the way, when I was going back and looking at these guys and how we think about them now, and you look at Neesmith, granted, I don't know if it's necessarily as true about Neesmith as it is about Obi Toppin.

• 50:26Speaker 02

  Haliburton affects other players' value in a way that is similar to like a Steve Nash or it's, it's, it's, it's a, it's a quality that very few guys have. And I think he, he, any situation that he comes into, I don't think he's as hard to build around because his point five-ness just shot, it shines a light. He shares the light and it doesn't have to be shining brightly on him all the time. So even though Ant scores more, you know, I think that their offensive endpoint is the same because I think that Haliburton makes everybody better because he's able to make reads and play this like point five style where he gets off the ball fast. And he produces as much offense as Ant does, I think in the end, I think the stats back that up. So I, I think it's a lot closer than you guys do, really.

• 51:12Bill Simmons?

  I have Maxey at three. He went 21st in this draft, which is incredible. Last three years, 27 points a game, six assists, 45, 36, 88 percentages. So in this draft, Minnesota passed on 17 and taken him and traded back. They could add Edwards and Maxey in the same draft, which is out of control. OKC had the 17th pick and took Poku over him. They could have had Maxey with SGA. Brooklyn at 19 could have taken him and put him with Kyrie Irving and Kevin Durant. That would have been weird. And then the crazy one to me, House, Miami had 20 coming off the 2020 finals. And I think, I can't remember if they lost Dragic or he was hurt or whatever, but they just could have taken him and added him to that 2020 finals team.

• 51:57Bill Simmons?

  They did not do that. And he ended up being the 21st pick. Sharks loved it. Called him a combo guard who could play on and off the ball. Great combination of team fit and best player available. And he said, the only reason he's not a lottery pick is that he's six foot three and won't be a primary ball handler in the NBA. Well, it turned out he's the primary ball handler of the NBA. He fixed that one. So why did you almost take him second, House?

• 52:22Speaker 01

  Because he feels to me like he's just scratching the surface of who he can be. That's why, because I feel like, you know, these guys, when we're trying to, you know, parse the top of this, are there still levels to what they're, they're capable of? And Maxey to me is the easiest to say, yes, there's still a whole nother. He just played the most minutes of his entire career, was an absolute warrior through, through all of that.

• 52:49Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 52:50Speaker 01

  Single-handedly drug a team that, that had no business whatsoever, winning 45 games. But they, they, you know, the combination of the incredible good luck the Sixers had, those dogs with VJ Edgecombe.

• 53:05Bill Simmons?

  I thought you were gonna say Jalen Brown.

• 53:08Speaker 01

  Well, that's, that wasn't good luck. That, that's your GM Stevens. That's, that's his, his player talent evaluation. But I would say what, what Maxey showed us, that there is a whole nother element to, to his game. And I, I mean, I think this is part of why I, I just love this upcoming Philadelphia season. Him with, with, like, the innings that he and Jalen Brown and VJ Edgecombe are going to be able to eat together, create so much room for Joel Embiid to be whoever he's going to be in whatever capacity he needs to be. And it's also why I think it makes the most sense for LeBron. LeBron could land there, play 45, 50 games, however many nights, Friday nights or Saturday nights,

• 53:50Speaker 01

  or on Prime and NBC, Sunday night NBC, oh, it's a LeBron game, here's Philly. I understand, but I'm just making the case out of all the situations, it's the one that makes the most sense for me.

• 54:00Speaker 02

  I made the same case, House. I think the basketball fit's fun in Philly with LeBron. He, he got all these guys buzzing around him that he can feed with VJ and with Maxey. And those guys tilt towards scoring and with Jalen, I think it kind of makes a lot of sense to me. But you think it won't happen, Bill?

• 54:14Bill Simmons?

  If he's going basketball fit, you go to Minnesota, I think. That's a team where he could actually, like, they could actually win the title if he went there. He's not going there.

• 54:23Speaker 01

  He's not playing with LaMelo Ball?

• 54:25Bill Simmons?

  I know.

• 54:26Speaker 01

  He doesn't do clowns?

• 54:27Speaker 02

  He'd be choking him like Homer choking Bart half the season, just like LaMelo's neck.

• 54:33Bill Simmons?

  There's, there's two reasons I think it would be fun if he went to Miami. One is that I think that's a terrible fit of all those guys together. And two, they're annoying fans, they're even more annoying media will be going nuts that they think they're gonna win the title and it's gonna be really fun to watch that crash and burn. So.

• 54:49Speaker 02

  More annoying media, little shot there.

• 54:51Speaker 01

  This is my favorite. What a hater.

• 54:53Bill Simmons?

  It's not annoying media? What are you talking about?

• 54:55Speaker 01

  Just whip that in there.

• 54:55Bill Simmons?

  It's the most annoying media. They know it.

• 54:57Speaker 01

  The hater, this is my favorite version. Same time, Simmons, same.

• 55:02Bill Simmons?

  They know it. That's only, that's the only way they get attention.

• 55:05Speaker 01

  What a hater.

• 55:06Bill Simmons?

  I have the number four pick as well.

• 55:10Bill Simmons?

  Denny Abdi will be my pick at number four. He went ninth overall. He's an All-Star last year, 24, 7 and 7. Used to be on the Wizards. To House's credit, he always said Denny Abdi was good. He was always a fan, never understood why he didn't have the ball more and why they didn't use him, kind of unleash him. And then when he went to Portland was like, I bet he's gonna be really good there. So House, take a bow.

• 55:33Speaker 01

  Thank you, I appreciate that. Yeah, Denny, let Denny take the bow. I mean, he, he's become the version, the best version of himself. It'll be super interesting this upcoming season for them, especially with this, this crazy ass owner. Like, you know, will he get that same usage? It was really important, we saw it in those playoff games, for him to be the on-ball, the, the creative playmaker. How does that coexist with Ja Morant? That, that's a.

• 56:00Bill Simmons?

  I thought they should have traded for Jalen. I don't know why they didn't, but if the choices were what they did versus like maybe moving some of the resources differently and getting Jalen and trying, I just think Jalen and Denny would have been kind of a bitch to play against.

• 56:15Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 56:15Bill Simmons?

  These two physical downhill forwards that night after night, I think would have, would have been an attack. So I had, there were two other guys I thought about there. But I thought with the way Denny, with the arrow pointing up with him, and he had the best season out of anybody left in this, in this redraft. So House, you have five, who do you have?

• 56:35Speaker 01

  I'll take LaMelo here. I think that, that's, that's, that's fair.

• 56:39Bill Simmons?

  I gotta say, he was not next on my board, but go ahead.

• 56:42Speaker 01

  Me either. The, the offensive engine proposition, and we get to see it, we're gonna, now, is it true? I, I, I saw news reports. Is LaMelo Ball living with Anthony Edwards right now? Is that accurate?

• 56:57Speaker 02

  That's the best thing I've ever heard.

• 57:00Speaker 01

  This is, there's some news out there suggesting.

• 57:03Bill Simmons?

  Even if it's not true, put it out there.

• 57:06Speaker 01

  As, as LaMelo gets himself, you know, sort of oriented around his new thing, those guys are spending some time together. If that's true and there's not a camera involved, then, then, you know, what are we even doing?

• 57:16Bill Simmons?

  I hope that there's a driver involved.

• 57:19Speaker 01

  Well, it could be Anthony Edwards or, or his own driver.

• 57:24Bill Simmons?

  House, LaMelo Ball played 52-plus games twice out of six years. Zero playoff wins.

• 57:30Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 57:31Bill Simmons?

  Six years, 303 games, 93, 92 minutes. By the way, we didn't, we should have mentioned this earlier. Way more fun if Golden State just says, fuck it, and takes them second, right? Like, we know you don't want to be here, but that's fine. We'll figure it out. We're gonna put you in, we're gonna basically make you what Jordan Poole became as this kind of heat check guy off the bench, instant offense. Let's see if we can fit you into our system. And it just would have been a fun experiment. I don't even know if it would have worked. Who knows?

• 58:00Speaker 01

  Well, they had to have had an, an opinion, you know, they, they, they clearly consulted, you know, the, the vets in the room. Do we think that we can take a, a spin with a, with a teenager? And it's not just a teenager, but like incredible immaturity.

• 58:16Bill Simmons?

  Anyone? I don't think they did.

• 58:17Speaker 01

  No?

• 58:18Bill Simmons?

  I don't. I, to me, the LaMelo thing was more, he played in New Zealand, his family was weird.

• 58:24Speaker 02

  The family part was still very in play. It's easy to forget. That was still a big.

• 58:29Bill Simmons?

  It's like, is this guy an N1 player or a real player? Like, there was some real stuff six years ago.

• 58:34Speaker 01

  Do we need this circus?

• 58:35Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, can this guy be a professional? Which, by the way, we're still not 100% positive, but, so House, you're, you're in on LaMelo here. Would you have taken him higher? Would you have taken him four?

• 58:45Speaker 01

  No, no, no, no, no, no. He's not, I mean, Denny Abdi, for where, where he seems to be headed, I, I would like to invest in him more than LaMelo.

• 58:56Bill Simmons?

  Sharks had some interesting thoughts on him. 6'7 point guard with an elite passing ability who will be a triple double threat from day one. The question is whether he will ever be a threat to make threes instead of just take them. Bell will like, Ball will likely be an inefficient offensive player for the first few years of his career, but he will make everyone around him better.

• 59:18Bill Simmons?

  All true. I mean, last year, when he played, which was only 28 minutes a game, but he did, you know, all the offensive stats, the eye tests. Like, I, I thought he had a really good season for him, for them last year, but they were very careful about how they used him. And Minnesota's not gonna be able to be as careful. You know, it's gonna be like, the 28 minutes a game is out. You're up to 35 now and we're gonna need 70 and we're gonna need two, three or four rounds from you in the playoffs. I have no idea if he can do it.

• 59:44Speaker 02

  I wonder if Charlotte in the playing game just saw something, they just opened the, the patient and saw cancer in terms of their, their, their chances to be like a, because the rim pressure is the thing. Cause I had it written, you know, dove on a lot of these guys and I was, I wrote down that LaMelo, you know, Sharks mentioned the shooting and I think he, he's proven himself over time where, let's see, nine players this past year attempted 300 or more threes off the dribble and only Jamal Murray had a higher percentage than LaMelo in that group. So the wildness was good, but just getting to the rim, I, I re-watched some of the Orlando game and it's just like, you can't have that guy as like your, your primary option. And maybe Charlotte thinks that they're not gonna lose a ton with their passing and stuff with Miller and Con,

• 1:00:27Speaker 02

  but he was 46.4% from two and inside the arc, he was like 50, like at the restricted area, he was like 51%. It's, it's really bad. So you're not getting free throws, he just can't be your primary option. So I kind of wonder if he's closer to Jamal Murray, honestly, in terms of like what we should expect from him, like star status wise.

• 1:00:46Bill Simmons?

  Listen, there's so many fascinating things about this season that is now one, two, three months away.

• 1:00:53Bill Simmons?

  LaMelo playing on Minnesota with real expectations is in the, I mean, that, you have Jalen Brown in Philly. You're gonna have wherever LeBron ends up. You're gonna have like the new era Luka and Lakers and Kessler and the, and the snow time Lakers. The Celtics will, there's this league, I don't know, over and over again. They just shake the snow globe.

• 1:01:15Speaker 01

  The rookies. I mean, it's eggplant emoji time, bro. I mean, right now, mid-July, I'm ready. Can't wait.

• 1:01:23Bill Simmons?

  You know what I'm really ready for though? Football.

• 1:01:28Bill Simmons?

  I can't wait. I can't wait to put some bets down. Kyle Man has, has two picks in a row, Kyle Man.

• 1:01:34Speaker 02

  I was gonna say, House, have you thought at all about how you guys let go of Avdia, this big physical wing who gets downhill and you just basically reset with the, like, DeBansa is just sort of the spiritual reset of what you all would have had. So you're kind of, it turned out pretty well for you. I'm sure you're aware of that.

• 1:01:50Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, you tank, you tank so you could basically get Denny Avdia again.

• 1:01:55Speaker 01

  Well, that, that's the basketball gods shining their, their good light down on this franchise for that sound decision-making because the franchise wasn't ready for this version of Denny. It wouldn't have not have made any sense. He would not have risen to these heights. He was being held back by the, you know, the direction that the franchise was, was going. And I give the, um, the front office credit for recognizing he was on a different timeline than, than the franchise was on. They, they need to be building up with these guys that are all between the age of 19 and 21. We have six or seven of them now and they're all on the same contract. That's why, you know, we'll, we'll make fun of Trey Young's contract for the balance of the season, but Trey Young's contract, Anthony

• 1:02:37Speaker 01

  Davis, the Anthony Davis extension that Washington will probably pay for, it doesn't really matter because they have, everybody else is on a rookie contract. They have to reach a certain floor, salary floor as required by the CBA.

• 1:02:49Bill Simmons?

  The funniest moment of the season is gonna be the third, fourth, fifth, or sixth game this season. Trey Young's gonna have like 39 points and hit a big three and do this with the Wizards jersey. And House is gonna be like, we're back, baby.

• 1:03:03Speaker 01

  I already have his jersey. I mean, you know.

• 1:03:06Speaker 02

  And we're gonna be studying the still frames and in the background. Yeah. AJ's just gonna have his hands on his shoulders, looking off into the distance. I'm gonna be, I'm gonna be magnifying that. The Blazers should bring Murray on off the bench. I just wanted to throw that in. My next two,

• 1:03:21Speaker 02

  I have Jaden McDaniels. He was fifth on my board. Um, Jaden McDaniels.

• 1:03:26Bill Simmons?

  Fifth on mine as well, Kyle Man.

• 1:03:28Speaker 01

  Very fair.

• 1:03:29Speaker 02

  Um, this is, we get into a, my second tier, I would say was playoff level primaries. That was Maxi and Avdia. Now we're into elite specialists. Uh, yeah, McDaniels, um, he became a much better catch and shoot player from three this past year. He's one of the most dynamic. Uh, he's, he's really, really good off the ball, chasing defensively, like navigating screens and things like that. Very slinky and spindly and explosive, but he's also very good on the ball. His matchup difficulty consistently through the roof. Um, and he's also just one of the meanest fuckers in basketball. If you just watch his face, I'm, I sometimes just wanna pat him on the back and be like, Jaden, dude, it's cool, man. It's all right. Like, he's, he's just such a maniacal competitor. I, I love the dude. He's one of, he's one of my favorite players in the league.

• 1:04:13Bill Simmons?

  We should be able to vote on that when we do awards at the end of the year. There should be a meanest fucker first team.

• 1:04:19Speaker 01

  Well, he, he revealed that in that Spurs series.

• 1:04:22Bill Simmons?

  Joker's got a dark side.

• 1:04:23Speaker 02

  It's like, are you okay?

• 1:04:24Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, McDaniels definitely is, is a mean motherfucker.

• 1:04:27Speaker 01

  That Spurs series pulled it out of him in a way. Like, it was personal for him, uh, against Denver as well. The thing that I wonder, and I will wonder this entire upcoming season, is why Minnesota didn't just run it back. And I do get the idea of moving on from Randall. Like, getting rid of Randall is kind of fine. You can kind of run it back without Randall. Uh, although, speaking of inning eaters, he, he has been pretty durable. He has played and given them, you know, minutes over the court, but I, it's a very weird decision for them to, to go in the direction that, that they've gone, especially in the face of, of, of a Wemby West. That, that's the,

• 1:05:07Bill Simmons?

  I hated it. I still hate it. I'm always gonna hate it. I thought they overreacted to some injuries and some bad luck and underreacted to the fact that they had made two conference finals in a row and had a pretty young team for the most part. Um, McDaniels, a couple of things with him. He, Sharks wrote this, the biggest surprise that might be that the Thunder traded McDaniels instead of keeping them for himself, for themselves. He could have been on OKC. He's like the quintessential Presti guy. Uh, the Lakers ended up with the 28th pick and traded it, um, with Danny Green for Dennis Schroder. And then OKC flipped the pick after that. So the Lakers also could end. Now, it took them a couple of years to get going. And then the other piece, and I, I certainly made fun of him at the

• 1:05:52Bill Simmons?

  time when, when Minnesota gave up all that stuff for Rudy Gobert and then put out, they were, they were adamant about keeping Jaden McDaniels. It's like, oh, cool. Congrats. You just gave up 100 first round picks. Turned out to be the right move. I'll take the L. Who'd you have for the other pick, Kyle Man?

• 1:06:12Speaker 02

  Uh, I was gonna note an inefficiency, I think, that was going on along, among like Washington, which is where he played wings. They played zone a lot weirdly for those few years and they happen to have two of the best like perimeter defensive prospects in Matisse Thybul and Jade McDaniels. So I think that was maybe a reason why he fell. Who knows? I, I really liked him in that draft. My next guy, uh, is Devin Vassell, actually. Uh, yeah, I'm going two-way guys who can shoot the shit out of the ball. Had a pretty interesting arc where, um, when they were tanking and, and rebuilding, he was, his primacy has gone down as this team has gotten better, but I actually think it's the sweet spot for him where that stuff was all invaluable for him, but I, I'd like him a lot. I mean, he's, he's a shot maker, um, gonna be central to what they're doing going forward on a championship

• 1:06:57Speaker 02

  level team. I think we've seen that now.

• 1:07:00Bill Simmons?

  Sharks said he was the best three and D prospect in this year's draft and has more shot creating, more shot creating talent than he showed in college. I was really surprised the Knicks didn't take him. I thought they were gonna end up with him. All right. So we have so far, we have Edwards, Halliburton, Maxey, Avdia, LaMelo, Jaden McDaniels, and Devin Vassell as our top seven. And Desmond Bain, he's like, I have to have another chip on my shoulder? I went 30 in this draft. You guys are gonna, you're gonna disrespect me again? Are you taking him here, House?

• 1:07:33Speaker 01

  I am not.

• 1:07:35Bill Simmons?

  You're not?

• 1:07:35Speaker 01

  Sorry. This is so disrespectful.

• 1:07:38Bill Simmons?

  Who are you taking?

• 1:07:39Speaker 01

  I'm taking a Kangu. I, I really feel like that guy's got, you know, there's a ceiling yet to be explored. The problem I have.

• 1:07:47Bill Simmons?

  Lower on my board, just for the record.

• 1:07:48Speaker 01

  I get it. I get it. I get it. Yeah. So, I mean, I'm taking him at eight. Um, the problem I have with Bain is, just watched a lot of him in a playoff series and, and on, on a team where it just felt like that impact should have been more, you know, the, he, there was plenty of things going on with Orlando.

• 1:08:11Bill Simmons?

  Where they needed him, yeah.

• 1:08:12Speaker 01

  Yes. He, he, it should have been a wonderful fit. There is a reason that the forecast for Orlando was upper tier of the Eastern Conference and 50-plus wins. And I didn't see it every night from him. I went to, to watch Washington play Orlando and he, he played significant minutes in that game.

• 1:08:34Bill Simmons?

  Was it a, you forgot he was out there, performance?

• 1:08:37Speaker 01

  The Wizards beat Orlando the night that I went. In fact, it was right on the precipice of the Wizards trading, trading CJ McCollum because it was the Wizards' fifth win in seven games.

• 1:08:47Bill Simmons?

  Starting to get too good.

• 1:08:47Speaker 01

  They're like, wait a minute, hold up.

• 1:08:50Bill Simmons?

  So last five years, he was 21, 5, and 5, 39% from three. And that was his calling card in the draft was he's gonna be a good three-point shooter. He turned out to be a way better player. I mean, when you think about it, the Grizzlies take him 30, they get five years out of him in some playoff series, then they flip him for four first-round picks. So that's like, if you're like a, I don't know, a, a stockbroker or a hedge fund person, and you're buying low on something and then selling high, that's like the ultimate value you ever could have gotten for somebody. But I think he's a little better than House. I can't, I can't say he's been on the perfect team the last couple of years. Like, we've still never really seen him with, uh, a normal type of point guard. I, speaking

• 1:09:32Bill Simmons?

  of, uh, well, I'm gonna take him here at, at 10. And then I, oh no, is it 10? Yeah.

• 1:09:38Speaker 02

  Nine.

• 1:09:39Bill Simmons?

  Nine, at nine. And then I'm gonna take Peyton Pritchard at 10.

• 1:09:45Speaker 02

  That's who I had next.

• 1:09:46Bill Simmons?

  26th pick in the draft. Um, little bit controversial. It was like a Danny A and sheet check pick. They had, the Celtics had 14 and 26 in this draft, coming off a 2020, making the conference, I think they made the conference finals. Um, and it felt like this was gonna be a really important draft for their depth. Pritchard took him a couple of years. Uh, I always liked him more than it seemed like the coaches liked him and it was always unclear why he wasn't getting the car keys a little bit more. And I think the team liked him because they gave him a contract even before he'd kind of become who he became. And then he just became, um, you know, one of the best bench guards

• 1:10:27Bill Simmons?

  in the league. Last year moved into a whole different level where he was 17 a game and is really one of the best get into the lane guard scorers we have in the league, which is just weird. He's a little hit or miss. There's a question whether there's like another, is there a second leap for him, a la Jalen Brunson leaving Dallas? I don't think so. Um, but there's really good stats with him. Sharks was a big fan. Sharks said, uh, should instantly be an excellent backup point guard, has the confidence and skill to knock down shots in big playoff games. So, nice job by him. But anyway, so I have Bain and Pritchard and now it's starting to get a little dicey, House.

• 1:11:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I, I, I recognize my role in this podcast today as, as a little bit of an outlier with, with some of my perception.

• 1:11:18Bill Simmons?

  There's no wrong picks in a redraft.

• 1:11:20Speaker 01

  I'm valuing.

• 1:11:21Speaker 02

  Stan Stronghouse.

• 1:11:22Speaker 01

  Some size here. Well, I mean, I didn't really make, I, I loved Okongwu where I took him because I think that his flexibility, what he adds to a team in terms of front court depth and he shot, you know, he averaged two threes a game and he shot 38% from three. So that, that's floor spacing, especially for that Atlanta team. Uh, and they really, really need that.

• 1:11:42Bill Simmons?

  Are you taking Beef Stew right here? Is that what you're telling us?

• 1:11:44Speaker 01

  I am taking Beef Stew. That's exactly right. I sure am. You know me better than anybody. You're fucking A right. I'm taking Beef Stew.

• 1:11:49Bill Simmons?

  I had him either him or one other guy that I'm sure Kyle's gonna take, but Beef Stew went 16th in this draft, was an excellent bench big guy, and then really from the fight last year on, just got weird with him in Detroit. There's an Athletic article talking about, he got into it with the coach during the playoff series and he only played 11 minutes a game, I think in their playoff series. So something funky happened and then they basically dumped him.

• 1:12:15Speaker 01

  Gave him, gave him away.

• 1:12:16Speaker 02

  It'd probably be like a shorter article to like, write like who he hasn't gotten into it with, right? It'd be better because he's gotten into it with everybody from, from what I understand.

• 1:12:26Bill Simmons?

  I mean, honestly, San Antonio should got, it's exactly who San Antonio needed. They needed a fuck you guy on their team and he's a fuck you and a half guy. So Memphis is gonna have him. He's gonna fit in perfectly with them and uh, that couldn't have worked out better. I didn't mind the pick, House. Who do you have next, Kyle?

• 1:12:43Speaker 02

  Uh, I have Aaron Neesmith next.

• 1:12:45Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I did.

• 1:12:45Speaker 01

  Good, good player. Good player. Played, drafted by Boston. Isn't that right?

• 1:12:50Speaker 02

  Yeah, he just couldn't, too many dudes, right? Yeah.

• 1:12:53Bill Simmons?

  I had a, a couple of jokes about tweets and podcasts. I always liked them and I felt like they completely marginalized them. It's a good example of like bad team, wrong fit where you'd go to the games and he would just kind of run up and down and stand in the corner and do nothing. They didn't trust him to do anything. He never knew when he was gonna play or not. His minutes were getting yanked around. He just had no confidence and he goes to Indiana and becomes this awesome three and D guy. And you know, people think the Halliburton game was the Halliburton game, but it was really the Neesmith game. That, you know, Halliburton made the famous shot in the game, but it was Neesmith making like four heat check threes and proved himself as somebody who could play in a finals at a high level, guard the best players in the other team.

• 1:13:38Speaker 02

  That's the key.

• 1:13:38Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, he's a real deal.

• 1:13:40Speaker 01

  That's why he does, really deserves to be here.

• 1:13:42Bill Simmons?

  Well, this next pick will be interesting. It's starting to drop off, Kyle. Who do you have?

• 1:13:47Speaker 02

  Uh, let's see. This is my, these are my starters, my playoff starters. And my next one is, and I'm, I'm a little waffly on this one, but Emmanuel Quikley was my next pick.

• 1:13:59Bill Simmons?

  I had him as well.

• 1:14:00Speaker 01

  Fifty, fifty.

• 1:14:01Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:01Speaker 02

  Yeah. Funny because you know, Quikley, when he was traded from the Knicks was still like ascended and you know, everybody was like, okay, well this guy's on a rocket just going upwards and then has a couple of seasons in a row where he misses a lot of time and then he comes back and play, it just has a really quiet season this past year. So I don't know if, I don't know if the star bet is still there with him. I don't know if the star confidence is still there as much as it was with him. They gave him a gigantic crazy contract. Um, but he's a starter player. He's a good shooter. I don't know that I'm gonna run my offense through him like maybe people hope that they would, but probably already said too much about Emmanuel Quikley, honestly.

• 1:14:37Bill Simmons?

  Well, that, no, there's one other thing. He got a stupid contract. So he's in the worst contract draft every year. And then you start to hang that around your, your collar. They have this dumb contract, but he's still a playoff guy who can come off the bench and you know, he just shouldn't make 30 million a year.

• 1:14:53Speaker 01

  They missed him. I mean, he, he couldn't play in that playoff series this year. And that's, that's the lingering taste, which makes him, you know, at least for me, when I was looking through, it's like, can I, but when you look at his resume, for the most part, he's played a lot of basketball. He missed like, you know,

• 1:15:06Bill Simmons?

  And he scores.

• 1:15:07Speaker 01

  two thirds of, of whatever that season was two years ago. Um, but otherwise, you know, he's between 65 and, and low seventies in terms of the number of games played. Yeah, I, I, he's a, a net positive for me.

• 1:15:21Bill Simmons?

  I had dinner with Doc last night and he was talking about how he always liked to have one guy, one guard come off the bench, like the Eddie House, the Williams type that was just like, no shot is a bad shot. I'm just, I'm just firing it up. And he was like, I always loved those guys. I would never tell them it was a bad shot. I would just kind of take them out if they didn't have it, but I would always tell them, go, go, go. I think quickly, if Toronto's good, quickly could be one of those guys, right? He comes in, if he doesn't have it, he doesn't have it. If he does have it, you can ride it for six, seven minutes. I think, uh, there was a moment there when we felt like maybe he was more than that, but I don't know if he is, but it's fine.

• 1:16:00Speaker 02

  He's probably a two and a one's body, you know, he likes to score and that's kind of, that's his destiny, I think.

• 1:16:06Bill Simmons?

  I'm taking uh, Obi Toppin here and he's really the last guy that I think we know for sure could play in a top seven of a really good playoff team because we saw it in Indiana two years ago. He uh, he was really valuable for them. I like him and especially seeing him in person was a not afraid of the moment guy, which I think, you know, for, he's an underside. I don't even know. He's a four, is he five? Who, who fucking knows? He can't really guard anyone. Um, but he plays really hard and I think he feeds off the crowd and I just thought he was a really good bench guy for them. So. House, would he, do I have another pick? Oh yeah, I do. I have two. Wow, this gets really hard. Um.

• 1:16:49Speaker 01

  Wait, did House get his turn? Like, does he get his two in a row?

• 1:16:53Bill Simmons?

  No, I don't get two in a row because where I am at the snake.

• 1:16:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:16:56Bill Simmons?

  I get two in a row and I'm kind of screwed now. Um, well, there's only a couple of picks left. I have uh, this is my last pick. Ah, man.

• 1:17:11Bill Simmons?

  I can't believe I'm at.

• 1:17:11Speaker 01

  There's two guys that are really good that can both play.

• 1:17:14Bill Simmons?

  Agonizing over this. I'll take Sadiq Bay here.

• 1:17:17Speaker 01

  Oh, wow.

• 1:17:18Speaker 02

  It's fair. Yeah.

• 1:17:19Speaker 01

  I had two other guys.

• 1:17:21Bill Simmons?

  I don't, I don't hold it against them that he got hurt.

• 1:17:24Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:17:25Bill Simmons?

  I like his game. I thought, you know, he's buried on that terrible Pelicans team last year and I thought he actually played well for them. I thought.

• 1:17:33Speaker 01

  He did.

• 1:17:34Bill Simmons?

  I thought a playoff team could have not only traded for him, but he could have really helped them and it just wasn't meant to be, I guess. But um, I, I've always liked him. I, I think he's a tough wing. I think he's got a little fuck you in him and it's not his fault he got hurt. So that's my next pick.

• 1:17:50Speaker 01

  I like it. He could still help somebody. Um, I will take uh,

• 1:17:58Speaker 01

  hmm, I'll take Isaiah Joe because I feel like that's a, a guy, here's the, the skill that he possesses. This was the fourth consecutive season that he shot north of 40% from three. That's an important skill in the NBA. That's, that's a guy.

• 1:18:16Bill Simmons?

  You know what? I wish I had taken them. That was a good pick.

• 1:18:18Speaker 01

  I wondered if you might.

• 1:18:19Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. No, that's a good one. Well, the thing is, we just don't know, right? We'll know on Detroit this year. Can he play 25 to 27 minutes a game? Can he shoot 42%? Can he actually be somebody they look for in the last two minutes of a game? We have no answers for him because we've never really seen him in big moments. Who's your last pick here, Kyle?

• 1:18:38Speaker 02

  If I know Isaiah, Isaiah Joe, he's gonna make threes. He's uh, yeah, he's been one of the better volumes shooters in the league. Like, he's been great.

• 1:18:45Bill Simmons?

  Skill. Yeah.

• 1:18:47Speaker 02

  Uh, this is, I mean, there's only like two guys left that I would take. Um, but for me, it's between Sam Merrill and Paul Reed. I'll lean, I'll lean Sam Merrill here, uh, just because we've seen him play in the playoffs. Um, it really, really falls off though here. This, we get to the guys who like are on the roster optimistic and on the roster pessimistic. Those are my next two tiers. So, but Merrill is a guy I'm just like, runs a pick and roll, can make shots, he's dynamic, he's smart, plays hard. Yeah.

• 1:19:19Bill Simmons?

  I had him here too. He was 60 in this draft, House. Um, all right. So guys that didn't get taken. Cole Anthony, which this would have been shocking two years ago that he didn't get drafted.

• 1:19:29Speaker 02

  He's out of the league.

• 1:19:30Bill Simmons?

  He's basically out of the league, didn't make it. He was the 15th pick. Playoff Paul was the other one. Paul Reed.

• 1:19:36Speaker 01

  Yeah. B-ball Paul.

• 1:19:38Bill Simmons?

  B-ball Paul. I'm screwing up my nicknames.

• 1:19:40Speaker 01

  No, well, you can call him Playoff, Playoff P.

• 1:19:42Bill Simmons?

  Number 58 pick, but we've at least seen him playing in playoff series and being um, somewhat relevant. And then here's what we have for the not drafted. Wiseman at number two.

• 1:19:56Bill Simmons?

  Patrick Williams at number four is a $90 million contract right now, not drafted. I never understood the Patrick Williams thing, even as it was happening in 2020 with the draft. It was like, he's a physical wing, but he can't shoot. But if he ever learns how to score, like it's one thing when it's like a Caleb Wilson. Is he gonna, how's his stroke gonna be five years from now? But when it's like, this guy can't score. But if he could score, it's like, that usually never works out. Same thing for Isaac Okoro, who I thought was gonna be better as like a defensive shutdown guy.

• 1:20:27Speaker 02

  I did too.

• 1:20:28Bill Simmons?

  He's just not. Killian Hayes at seven. Jalen Smith at 10, I think if we had gone 20 picks, maybe he gets taken. He's turned into at least a backup pick. Kira Lewis at 15.

• 1:20:42Bill Simmons?

  There was a moment when it seemed like he was gonna be the fastest guy in the league and a great change of pace guy, it just never happened for him. He went into the Pelicans volcano. Poku at 17, who I think could have gotten a championship ring in 25 for his incredible tanking exploits. When they turned the entire offense over to him for 30 games. One of the funniest tanking moments of all time. Josh Green at 18. Precious Achua at 20, who is

• 1:21:11Speaker 02

  He's still playing.

• 1:21:12Bill Simmons?

  Virgin on having moments, but never totally. Zeke, Zeke Najee at 22. Xavier Tillman at 35. I think if we did this three years ago, would have gotten drafted, but his knees went on him unfortunately.

• 1:21:24Speaker 02

  How many players in the league are a senior? He's Xavier Tillman senior and he seemed like he was 40 years old when he came into the league. I'm trying to think how many seniors there are in the league.

• 1:21:34Bill Simmons?

  And then the last one we could have drafted was Nick Richards at 42. I think the draft was 25 picks. Like he's somebody who we've seen play on different teams and get minutes and

• 1:21:47Speaker 02

  Poor, poor Najee Marshall, undrafted in this draft and undrafted in the NBA draft in 2020.

• 1:21:53Bill Simmons?

  All right. So Kyle, if we had to grade this draft overall, like a, like a B plus? We have three franchise guys in this draft. We had Edwards, Halliburton, LaMelo, who are all franchise guys. I mean, I'm sorry, Edwards, Maxey and Halliburton. Franchise guys on teams that could make a final four with those guys as their best guys. So to me, that's a hugely successful draft. And then you throw in a bunch of the role players. This is for, as weird as the COVID draft was, I think it's a B plus.

• 1:22:25Speaker 02

  Yeah. I mean, I, like I said, I have Edwards and Halliburton a tier above Maxey and Avdia. But it's just sort of like, these are contending level franchise players who, you know, worthy of max contracts. And I think in any draft, if you can get that, it's just the depth. It's not great. It's really funny to think about back about like what we, what we were thinking we were going into that draft. It's, it's a funny time machine that, uh, this is the only COVID time machine that I'm willing to go into willingly.

• 1:22:53Bill Simmons?

  House, what's your grade for this draft?

• 1:22:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think it's a solid B because when I look at how many all NBA

• 1:23:03Speaker 02

  recommendation, uh, recognitions are we gonna get out of this draft? Then I think it's like a dozen ultimately. I think we'll get to, by the time these guys are done, you add up those top sort of four guys. I think we'll get to around 12 all NBA teams. Out of Maxey and Halliburton and, and I mean,

• 1:23:21Bill Simmons?

  So we only have

• 1:23:22Speaker 02

  We're about five or six now, right?

• 1:23:24Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, we have five all-stars. We have three guys who made it all NBA team. We have one guy who led a team to the finals. And we have three NBA champs. Can you name the three?

• 1:23:40Speaker 02

  Wiseman got a ring from, for Golden State, didn't he?

• 1:23:42Bill Simmons?

  James Wiseman.

• 1:23:44Speaker 02

  Peyton Pritchard.

• 1:23:45Bill Simmons?

  Peyton Pritchard.

• 1:23:47Bill Simmons?

  The other guy got drafted for us. Isaiah Joe.

• 1:23:53Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah. Great. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. With the Thunder. Yeah.

• 1:23:56Bill Simmons?

  We also only had 10 guys who played 10K minutes so far. In this draft, 10K minutes in six years, not a lot, right?

• 1:24:03Speaker 02

  Feels right though.

• 1:24:04Bill Simmons?

  1500 a year, but we've only had 10. All right. So the final redraft. Edwards, one, Halliburton, Maxey, Avdia, LaMelo Ball, our top five. McDaniels, Devin Vassell, Akongwu, Bain, Pritchard rounding out the top 10. And then we did, uh, Stewart, Neesmith, Quickly, Toppin, Bay, Isaiah Joe and Sam Merrill. I don't even think that's the right amount of, somehow that's 17 players. We probably skipped a guy at some point, but that was, uh, that was our redraft. And then the closest to getting drafted, probably Paul Reed. He was our bubble guy.

• 1:24:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, you guys both liked him.

• 1:24:44Bill Simmons?

  I feel like Kyle Man has not given up on Okoro yet.

• 1:24:48Speaker 02

  What? Based on what?

• 1:24:50Bill Simmons?

  I think, I think you're still holding out hope for him as a defensive shutdown guy.

• 1:24:54Speaker 02

  Didn't we get valuable playoff minutes from Najee Marshall? I feel like Najee Marshall is being overlooked here.

• 1:24:59Bill Simmons?

  Was he in this draft?

• 1:25:00Speaker 02

  A little flabbergasted by that accusation, Bill.

• 1:25:03Bill Simmons?

  I don't know. You, you, I saw a glimmer of hope with when I, Coro's name got brought up.

• 1:25:07Speaker 02

  Oh, that was just the sun reflecting off my glasses.

• 1:25:09Bill Simmons?

  Did, where was Najee Marshall in this draft? Did I miss this?

• 1:25:12Speaker 02

  Undrafted.

• 1:25:13Bill Simmons?

  Oh, he's an undraft. So the undrafted were him and Deshaun Tate. Najee Marshall could have been picked. I actually think he's arrow pointing up out of some of these guys we mentioned.

• 1:25:22Speaker 02

  Facundo Campazo, no love?

• 1:25:26Bill Simmons?

  Joe House.

• 1:25:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:25:28Bill Simmons?

  Enjoy the golf.

• 1:25:29Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 1:25:30Bill Simmons?

  Kyle Man, enjoy the time off before the, uh, for the playoffs get really kicking here. It was a pleasure to redraft. Hey, I have a feeling I'll be seeing the two of you again for another redraft this summer. Cause I really enjoy this. Thank you, fellas. We're gonna take a break, come back with Jason Concepcion.

• 1:25:47Speaker 03

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• 1:26:41Bill Simmons?

  Jason Concepcion is here for one of the most important moments of the year on the Bill Simmons podcast. I am, I am gonna unleash my MVP ballot for the Odyssey.

• 1:26:51Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 1:26:52Bill Simmons?

  I haven't prepped you at all. I didn't send it to you and we're going from 100 to one. Now I'm gonna skip some spots.

• 1:27:01Speaker 05

  Okay, okay.

• 1:27:02Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, we're going backwards. How many times have you seen this movie? Once or twice?

• 1:27:06Speaker 05

  I've only seen it once. I'm going a second time with my wife.

• 1:27:10Speaker 05

  This week coming up.

• 1:27:11Bill Simmons?

  I saw it yesterday at 10 AM showing at the Grove with CR, himself, Chris Ryan and my son Ben, who was completely blown away and tried to get tickets for last night and was like, dad, there are no tickets. And I'm like, yeah, there's not gonna be tickets for a while at night. Yeah, we're not, not gonna find those, but, um, before we get into the MVP ballot, so you're obviously, you did binge mode for us with Mallory. You're a Game of Thrones aficionado. Do these, do these worlds overlap at all for you? Are that like, do you feel like there's some sort of DNA strands together?

• 1:27:47Speaker 05

  In the sense that this is based on history. You know, these are epic poems from a period of Western history, the dawn of history, but that within that,

• 1:28:03Speaker 05

  it's also from an age of legends. It's you're unclear like what actually happened and, and what was, is fantastical. Yes, I think about them in the same way, which is something I've been telling people. Like I, I think about this, this movie is, you know, when I was a kid, you'd turn on basic cable and it would be like The Dark Crystal or Labyrinth. Or any number of movies that this movie reminded me of. Like this is a movie where if I was 13 years old and I turned on TV and it was two hours into the movie, I'm like, well, I'm, I'm here for the rest of the 55 minutes.

• 1:28:43Bill Simmons?

  Well, this is gonna be one of the all-time rewatchables. I'm sure we'll do it at some point this year. I gotta wait till it's on streaming or cable so I can really study it and take a bunch of notes and stuff. But, um, it's, I, I love that. We're gonna do a lot of spoilers for this. So if you haven't seen it yet, uh, no offense, you can leave, come back after you've watched it. But one of the things I love about it, other than it's just so ambitious and they use technology perfectly. And it's almost impeccably cast with a couple of exceptions we'll get into, but

• 1:29:13Bill Simmons?

  I have, there's one I'm gonna, yeah, there's somebody that fares very poorly on the MVP ballot and his name rhymes with Bomb Ballant.

• 1:29:25Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I told you.

• 1:29:26Speaker 05

  Interesting. Okay.

• 1:29:28Bill Simmons?

  But I think what I really love and what's great from a rewatchable standpoint, it's got four like set pieces.

• 1:29:34Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 1:29:34Bill Simmons?

  Where it's like,

• 1:29:37Bill Simmons?

  All right. Okay. Buckle up. 10 minutes. Get ready. And, you know, when we see, we see Cyclops for the first time. And the movie is like, kind of moving along. It's like, we're bringing in all these different characters. We're just kind of going along. It's like, oh, let's get some food. Hey, there's a sheep. Let's follow him up the hill. And you just have no idea what's about to happen. And from that point on, the movie just, just goes nuts.

• 1:30:05Speaker 05

  Goes absolutely nuts. Yes. I, I, I loved it. I can't wait to, I, I cannot wait to see where we go with this MVP. 100 person MVP.

• 1:30:15Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, we're, I'm gonna skip some spots.

• 1:30:17Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 1:30:18Bill Simmons?

  Coming in at number 100. So just react off me after I give you.

• 1:30:21Speaker 05

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You got it.

• 1:30:23Bill Simmons?

  After, at 100, finishing last, bitchy internet people.

• 1:30:28Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 1:30:28Bill Simmons?

  They're 100 on the MVP ballot, complaining that only 41 theaters can show IMAX. Sorry. The casting was too woke. That's been a big thing. Nolan wasn't faithful to Homer.

• 1:30:40Speaker 05

  Give me a fucking break.

• 1:30:41Bill Simmons?

  Just shut the fuck up.

• 1:30:42Speaker 05

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Give me a break.

• 1:30:43Bill Simmons?

  We can't complain about everything. Let's, when somebody spends this amount of time and money, and makes a great movie like this, we can't also bitch about it and find reasons that it sucks.

• 1:30:53Speaker 05

  Faithful to Homer is hilarious because first of all, Homer is not a guy. Homer is a collection of unknown amounts of anonymous poets. There was no actual Homer guy.

• 1:31:05Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:31:05Speaker 05

  And two, you know, the things that people choose to be mad about the wokeness of it, it's like, you know, what's not, what's barely in the Odyssey? The horse. The horse is like, mentioned in a line, and you certainly don't see what goes on inside of it. So it's just very interesting to me, the stuff that people choose to be upset about. And then the people, even with the trailer who were like, that's not what Agamemnon's helmet would have looked like. It's, get out of here. Please stop it.

• 1:31:30Bill Simmons?

  It's, it's, listen, there's a lot of people out there who need a nice 24 ounce glass of settle down juice. They know who they are. All right. We're dropping down to number 58 on the MVP ballot. Benny Safdie as Agamemnon.

• 1:31:44Speaker 05

  Oh, wow. Okay.

• 1:31:46Bill Simmons?

  Here's why. Didn't even know it was him the first time I watched it. No idea. He, he could have been anybody. And then it was like Benny Safdie. And I was like, he was? So now I'm watching it. And I guess you can kind of see him at two different points, but um, I, really, you just needed like a tall, imposing guy. I would have gone with Con Conipple. Like just go with somebody 6'7".

• 1:32:10Speaker 05

  Of course you would have gone with Con Conipple. You know, here's the thing about the Benny Safdie casting. You know, it was like, it's a mythic depiction. You know, Agamemnon's like a foot and a half taller than everybody. He's almost as tall as the giants that they end up running from. And it's, to me, and I'm gonna, I'm gonna unveil this theory at the right moment in this podcast.

• 1:32:30Bill Simmons?

  I can't wait.

• 1:32:31Speaker 05

  To me, Nolan has done something incredibly creative and thoughtful with all of his, with most of his casting choices. And I would include Safdie because he's like

• 1:32:43Speaker 05

  the most normal guy of the major characters in this cast. And they shoot him like Darth Vader, this mythic figure. But then when he speaks, it's just like a guy. So it's like this collision of myth and feet of clay that I think is really interesting. I thought it was really, I thought it was really fascinating. But I agree. You don't even know it's him.

• 1:33:05Bill Simmons?

  Would you have gone with Walker Kessler? Would you have just gone seven footer?

• 1:33:10Speaker 05

  Talk about a guy that we also haven't seen very much of in recent years.

• 1:33:13Bill Simmons?

  James Wiseman?

• 1:33:15Speaker 05

  Wiseman. Talk about another guy that we also haven't seen.

• 1:33:19Bill Simmons?

  Darko Milicic? Yeah, just go with any seven footer who's not on an NBA team anymore. Cause you're going for like a big, giant, tall guy, right? I don't know why you'd need Benny Safdie. Anyway. I didn't know he was in it. All right. Number 47, Tom Holland as Temeculus.

• 1:33:34Speaker 05

  Okay, okay.

• 1:33:36Bill Simmons?

  I'll just start here, Jason.

• 1:33:38Speaker 05

  Sure. Go ahead.

• 1:33:39Bill Simmons?

  To me, this is a 2002 range Heath Ledger role. Where it's like, this is somebody I could see someday becoming this badass gladiator. But right now, he's in, you know, he's, it's like a pup, still trying to figure out the world. Tom Holland, too, way too short to be like the next guy who runs the whole thing, to be like this warrior. Just not cool enough? I never bought the American accent the whole time. I didn't feel like he was related to Matt Damon. And he's trying, and they're trying to make it work. But I just find it hard to believe that this is Temeculus.

• 1:34:19Speaker 05

  Here's, here, I'll unveil my theory here. So I think Nolan, I think Nolan is playing with our, Sean Fennessy mentioned this on the pod, you guys talked about the, the Odyssey from last week. I think Nolan is, in a fascinating way, playing with our perceptions of these people and the characters they have played. For instance, Tom Holland, who is almost eternally now associated with Peter Parker, Spider-Man, who is a teenager forever. Here plays a character who, their entire struggle is, why won't anybody see me as a man, as a full grown man, as a person who could be king?

• 1:34:58Speaker 05

  He's trying to grow out of that image that we have placed him in because of his association with Peter Parker. And that's my Tom Holland example for why Nolan picked Tom Holland. And personally, I think it worked. I think it was, I, I think that kind of nod and a wink to the way we perceive Holland in this role, it, it, it worked for me. It worked.

• 1:35:23Bill Simmons?

  Interesting. People are really split on it. That's why I knew putting him 47. I thought there was one scene, Renee Hathaway just blew him off the screen. It was just, it was, cause she's great in this movie. Absolutely. We'll get to her much later. But um, I, I had some questions with the age too. Cause Odysseus was gone for, it seemed like 20 years, right? The dog is like barely holding on at the end. But then we have flashbacks of he sees his, his little kid there who's like four. Seems like four or five in the flashback. So that puts Temecos at like 24, 25 range?

• 1:35:58Speaker 05

  Yes, that would be my guess.

• 1:35:59Bill Simmons?

  But he's treated in the movie like he's 16? I just don't, I don't, I just didn't, this was the one thing that really didn't work for me.

• 1:36:06Speaker 05

  I, well, you know, it's like ancient Greek culture. He can't grow a beard. I think they just don't see you as a man.

• 1:36:12Bill Simmons?

  That's it, they're out?

• 1:36:13Speaker 05

  Until you like, until you can grow a full fledged beard.

• 1:36:16Bill Simmons?

  Okay. Uh, at number 43, Poseidon. Um, not a great dad.

• 1:36:23Bill Simmons?

  Negligent dad, leaves his Cyclops son just in a cave. Son has to finally get stabbed and attacked and has to call out for him. And he's like, all right, fine. I'll do some stuff for you.

• 1:36:34Speaker 05

  Uh, it's a good point. I would add that every single

• 1:36:40Speaker 05

  Greek god who's a, a male Greek god from Greek myths is a bad dad. All they do is go out, sire children, like with regular human women after meeting them in disguise and being like, hey, I'm just like a really handsome guy. I'm, I'm not Zeus at all, by the way. And then just abandoning them and never raising them. So this is like the culture of the pantheon of the Greek gods. This is just what they do.

• 1:37:07Bill Simmons?

  They're like, he's at a dinner party and they're like, what's up with Cyclops? He's like, you know, he's doing all right. He's uh, you know, the cave's going well. Except the 12 sheep.

• 1:37:17Speaker 05

  Yeah, he's got a job. He's, he's, uh, he's making his own way as a sheep herder on, on an island. He's doing really, really well. Works really hard at it.

• 1:37:25Bill Simmons?

  Obviously, one eye is tough, but, um, okay. Number 40, bear with me, cause we're not allowed to be critical of this person at all. And I'm not going to be, but all of it's explanation. Number 40, Zendaya. It's Zendaya.

• 1:37:40Bill Simmons?

  The goddess of wisdom, warfare and handicraft in this movie is Athena, which is also, people don't know this, Malorie Rubin's title at the Ring.

• 1:37:49Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 1:37:50Bill Simmons?

  Malorie's the goddess of wisdom, warfare and handicraft. Um, yes. Listen. Sometimes you can have too much star power in a movie. I'm not sure we need her for who she's playing in this movie. And I get it. Nolan's just like, I'm, he probably grew up on 70s movies and we're just getting stars all over the place. But she's basically here, it feels like she filmed her scenes in two days. She's making the Rue face from Euphoria in four different scenes and then calling it a day. It's like, you have Zendaya here. She's one of the most famous actresses in the world. Like she barely gets the ball. They don't run any plays for her.

• 1:38:24Speaker 05

  I, I liked it because.

• 1:38:28Speaker 05

  You're meant to wonder what it could mean that she's here. She barely speaks throughout the movie. She has a couple of things, you know, at one point, you know, Odysseus is like, why can't you just like, why can't the gods speak plainly and just like say normal stuff?

• 1:38:42Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:38:42Speaker 05

  And she's like, listen, this is, I don't know what to tell you. The gods work in mysterious ways. We're doing the best we can. And so for me, it was like, you, you want to be starstruck by that face. It's a lot like the Charlize casting where it's like, I just want to be dazzled by this character. And I think that was appropriate. And with the ending, listen, we're spoiling it, right?

• 1:39:03Bill Simmons?

  We're spoiling everything.

• 1:39:04Speaker 05

  Yeah, with the way, with the reveal of who Zendaya is in the movie, which is a, a woman who is killed during the sack of Troy, adding to Odysseus' guilt. That reveal, after all this time wondering like, what, you know, what does Athena want? Like, is she gonna be more plain spoken about it? But really hits for me. And secondarily, a lot of the, like the talk in this movie between the characters is, hey, remember, the gods can just show up in disguise, like as a, as a beggar, as a normal person.

• 1:39:42Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:39:42Speaker 05

  So I think Odysseus, at the end, is meant to have wondered all these years, did, oh man, did we accidentally, did we kill Athena in disguise? Did we insult her? Like, did I insult her with this Trojan horse?

• 1:39:57Bill Simmons?

  So you're saying we need somebody, we need more star power because there's a mystery of how important she was?

• 1:40:03Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 1:40:03Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, that's not bad. Cause I was gonna suggest Sophie Cunningham here, where she's just, she's just doing the point.

• 1:40:10Speaker 05

  Just as the point, just as the point. I mean, that's, that's a great idea. And by the way, Sophie Cunningham needs, yeah, like Pat Riley needs to trademark the point quickly.

• 1:40:22Bill Simmons?

  No question. Uh, number 38, James Remar. Um, another one, I didn't realize it was him the first time I saw the movie and then was looking for him the second time. He's in the dead people scene. It's after, uh, after the Elliot Page comes back and

• 1:40:35Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:40:35Bill Simmons?

  says all this stuff. And then we see Remar's on the bottom. I just want to give you his IMDB, IMDB here.

• 1:40:41Speaker 05

  Please, please, please.

• 1:40:42Bill Simmons?

  He's in the movie for 90 seconds, which is why he's not higher. He's Ajax in The Warriors.

• 1:40:48Speaker 05

  Incredible, incredible turn as Ajax.

• 1:40:50Bill Simmons?

  Ganz in 48 Hours, one of the great villains in action movie history. He's Dexter's dad in Dexter. He's Sex and the City, the best sex Samantha ever had. He's in Oppenheimer, Once Upon a Time in Hollywood, Pineapple Express, and What Lies Beneath. He's in Miami Vice in an episode, and he's in Cruising. James Remar.

• 1:41:10Speaker 05

  Incredible, incredible turn.

• 1:41:12Bill Simmons?

  All time IMDB. Anyway, kudos to him. Okay. Down to number 33. I have the giant Lesthragonians. So these are the big giant mutant robots that kill most of Odysseus' crew.

• 1:41:28Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 1:41:29Bill Simmons?

  No backstory. I don't know what they're so upset about. I don't know where they came from. If I'm gonna cut anything in this movie, this might've been where I cut. I might've just had a boat capsized instead. I don't know.

• 1:41:38Speaker 05

  Um, here's why I loved it.

• 1:41:41Bill Simmons?

  Okay.

• 1:41:41Speaker 05

  Because it turns out that Nolan shot that with no special effects. They did the forced perspective trick from the, you know, the Lord of the Rings, where they took, they replaced Damon and cast with like five foot tall stunt people. And then they cast like, uh, seven foot two Serbian centers as the Lesthragonians and then shot like from a low angle up. So that's all legit. There's no CGI in that, in that at all.

• 1:42:15Bill Simmons?

  You talked me into it. I just didn't understand what was going on in that scene, but that's, you're kind of holding on for dear life for half of this movie anyway.

• 1:42:23Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:42:24Bill Simmons?

  Um, number 32, I mentioned the Elliot Page character, Sinon?

• 1:42:29Speaker 05

  Sinon.

• 1:42:30Bill Simmons?

  Tough job.

• 1:42:33Speaker 05

  Gets lied to.

• 1:42:34Bill Simmons?

  Tough, tough, tough coaching here by Odysseus, you know? Um, it's like, hey, we're all gonna be in the horse. You're gonna be out there. It's gonna be fine though. Nothing's gonna happen. But he knows. It's tough one.

• 1:42:49Speaker 05

  I mean, to, to be fair to Odysseus, when he found out that Sinon volunteered for this, was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, why did you do that? Like, why?

• 1:43:00Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:43:00Speaker 05

  It, I, I didn't want it to be you. Why did you have to do that? But there again, I, I think is this example of Nolan's really interesting casting. Here's a character that like is cut loose and sacrificed by their entire community and society, lied to, and then left to die in order for this mission to like actually work. Uh, and so I thought that was like, yeah, it was, that really hit me. That was like, yeah.

• 1:43:29Bill Simmons?

  Felt bad. I mean, who knows? Sinon could have been much higher in the ballot, but you know who didn't want him, want him higher?

• 1:43:35Speaker 05

  Who?

• 1:43:36Bill Simmons?

  Odysseus. Just left him out to die.

• 1:43:39Speaker 05

  That was brutal. Brutal by Odysseus. And they had to listen to it from inside the horse.

• 1:43:45Bill Simmons?

  Number 30. The spoiler alert, people. We can't spoil the Odyssey. We all read the book. We all know it happens. There's that, there's nothing to spoil. It already happened. It's not like, hey, I guess I wonder how this plays out. Number 27. All right, now we're starting to get into some real candidates here. Number 27.

• 1:44:03Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 1:44:04Bill Simmons?

  Mia Goth as the, uh, the Handmaid, the untrusting, uh,

• 1:44:09Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 1:44:10Bill Simmons?

  Anne Hathaway is, turns out she's got something going with Pattinson. Um, I, I wanted a little more from her. I gotta be honest. She was, she felt like the most Game of Thrones character in this movie, other than maybe Pattinson. And definitely was the only one who seemed like she was a little bit horny. This is not a horny movie.

• 1:44:30Speaker 05

  Not at all. There was that one moment where you realize that, uh, that she is with Pattinson's character when, you know, he's just come.

• 1:44:39Bill Simmons?

  Did a sloppy kiss.

• 1:44:41Speaker 05

  And then it was just like, oh my God, like, yeah. And, uh, that's about as horny as it gets. Well, you know, like there, there's the entire preamble of Odysseus with, you know, Calypso on the beach that feels like

• 1:44:56Bill Simmons?

  Like there's been editing?

• 1:44:58Speaker 05

  Like it's been, like it's, the horniness was 20 minutes ago and now we're past that and we're just like rehydrating and basking in the glow.

• 1:45:07Bill Simmons?

  I'm glad you brought that up. There's an R rated version of this movie. There's definitely a Calypso scene. There's probably a scene with Odysseus and Penelope in the first 20 minutes. There's 100% of Mia Goth and Pattinson scene. And then there's probably some sort of feast slash orgy, if we went Game of Thrones style. There's probably a little finger running a brothel right outside of, uh, yeah, there's something like that.

• 1:45:32Speaker 05

  There's a 1 a.m. on Showtime or Cinemax in 1996 cut of this.

• 1:45:40Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:45:40Speaker 05

  That comes after like, uh, you know, the Hitcher or whatever, like the Red Shoe Diaries or something.

• 1:45:46Bill Simmons?

  Bob Gucci only produced it. Yeah.

• 1:45:48Speaker 05

  Right. Was shot in the Netherlands. Absolutely. There is a cut of this movie that is possible.

• 1:45:54Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. I think Mia Goth was probably like, this is, I was, I was ready for more. I guess, I guess nothing's happened. All right. At number 25, the dog, Argos.

• 1:46:04Speaker 05

  Uh, RIP.

• 1:46:06Bill Simmons?

  So I, first time I saw this was with, uh, your former binge mode partner, Mallory Rubin. And the moment we saw the dog, she, and she was just terrified and, um, and then the dog dies at the end. I thought Mallory was gonna be reduced to a puddle. Odysseus comes back, just touches the dog. The dog's like, you're back. Ah.

• 1:46:26Speaker 05

  Yeah. This is a drop dead from the shock.

• 1:46:29Bill Simmons?

  Mallory was, was also maybe gonna drop dead. Um, I, my big, the note I wrote down here is I, you know, Murph is now six, my dog. This is how I want Murph to go. Age 20, I'm away for a while. He holds on till I come back. I touch he, then he dies. And just is, this is what a relationship.

• 1:46:47Speaker 05

  How did she do when they were kicking the dogs? Like in the, in the dinner scene?

• 1:46:52Bill Simmons?

  You know Mallory? How do you think she did? She, she threw up the both. She did one of those with the, like, guarding her eyes. Uh, I will say the reason Argos isn't higher is, uh, I wanted one more flashback scene. This dog was such a great hunting dog. Let's see it. We saw like for a split second. I kind of wanted to see him cook a little bit. I don't know. Maybe Nolan, not a dog guy. Um, all right. Number 24, Corey Hawkins. He's Palibus. Um, he's, he's Pattinson's kind of sidekick. Honestly, possible Dion Waiters candidate. I thought, he really jumped out. I thought he was really good.

• 1:47:32Speaker 05

  Huge reaction. I don't know about you. Huge reaction in my theater when he buys it.

• 1:47:37Bill Simmons?

  Hmm.

• 1:47:38Speaker 05

  The, the audience absolutely loved it. To have that kind of impact in, what does he have? Like three lines and he's probably on screen for like two and a half minutes?

• 1:47:48Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:47:49Speaker 05

  To have that kind of impact in two and a half minutes? I, I gotta respect it. Crowd loved seeing him die.

• 1:47:56Bill Simmons?

  He kind of came in like he's out of the bad boy Pistons. He's just got a crazy, he's just trying, trying to get a tech, just trying, trying to start shit with people.

• 1:48:05Speaker 05

  Right. He's like any member of, of the Argentina World Cup squad, like in the final, like.

• 1:48:13Bill Simmons?

  He's already got a yellow card. He doesn't care if you're making a kick that. Number 22, Lupita Nyong'o, playing twins, playing hot twins. One has scars on her face, the other doesn't. The other shanks, I don't know. Um, honestly, need a little more with this. This was kind of the untraveled side of her getting, the, the evil sister getting the revenge at the end. But there's, in the books, there's a whole backstory for why she did that. And just kind of comes and goes. And I, I don't know. I felt like I could've gone another 10 minutes with it.

• 1:48:44Speaker 05

  I, uh, this is, for me, is the kind of, your mileage may vary thing. I think what Nolan was trying to do here is say, through this character, whose face launched the original Trojan war.

• 1:49:01Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:49:02Speaker 05

  Is to say like, oh, Helen has thoughts about this too. Um, cause she keeps wanting to say something. Like she try, she pulls Tom Holland aside at one point and like gives him some very important information. And then at the, at the feast is like, keeps trying to interject, but, uh, Menelaus just like won't let her speak. And to me, that was like a meta statement about war and about this entire conflict within this movie. But I agree that

• 1:49:31Bill Simmons?

  I like it.

• 1:49:32Speaker 05

  You, you have Lupita and you just kind of want more.

• 1:49:35Bill Simmons?

  I thought that was a perfectly cast because she's one of the most beautiful actresses we have. And that's like, in your head, Helena Troy has to be.

• 1:49:42Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 1:49:42Bill Simmons?

  Like, oh yeah, I get it. Uh, number 20, Mentor.

• 1:49:49Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, Original Mentor. They named everything else after him. Unbelievable.

• 1:49:53Speaker 05

  That's pretty.

• 1:49:54Bill Simmons?

  I never realized they're, or I'd forgotten because I read these books in high school, but they, the original mentor is just kinda, oh yeah, that's a good one.

• 1:50:03Speaker 05

  Here's my, uh, here's my Nolan casting theory applied to John Leguizamo, Mentor.

• 1:50:12Bill Simmons?

  I have, by the way, I have, I have Leguizamo coming later if you want to save this.

• 1:50:15Speaker 05

  Oh, okay. No, I'll save it.

• 1:50:16Bill Simmons?

  I just had the concept of Mentor as number 20. Yeah. Well, we're gonna hit Leguizamo in a second. Number 19.

• 1:50:26Bill Simmons?

  The big lesson of the Odyssey.

• 1:50:28Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 1:50:29Bill Simmons?

  Is my number 19 MVP. Winning isn't everything. You know what? Trojan Horse, great idea. You offered somebody a gift.

• 1:50:38Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:50:39Bill Simmons?

  You turned it and you ended up winning the war because you, you shanked them with this gift. But Odysseus, as the movie goes on, he realizes, was it worth it? It's the nicest thing you can do for another human being is give them a gift and we did that. And then we betrayed them with it. And I don't know if I would do that again. I, I thought he was the proper amount of doubt and skepticism about whether that was the good move.

• 1:51:03Speaker 05

  I think that's absolutely right. I think that, you know, one of the things that we know about Odysseus is how, not only how clever he is, which everybody says throughout the movie, but also that he is fair. Like he thrums that bow with that classic Christopher Nolan bass drop sound moment.

• 1:51:18Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:51:19Speaker 05

  And, you know, Penelope asks him why he does that. And he's like, well, I want to give, I, I think it's only fair and honorable to give the animal I'm hunting, like fair warning that I'm coming. But he doesn't do that with Troy. He, he plays it underhanded. He never gives them the warning that this is, that actually the hunt is still on. And that's a big reason why he's so guilty. He feels like he insulted Athena.

• 1:51:45Bill Simmons?

  A little parallels to Bill Belichick and Spygate, maybe a little bit.

• 1:51:48Speaker 05

  A little bit.

• 1:51:48Bill Simmons?

  How far do you want to go to win? And sometimes you can have regrets. Yeah, how much is too much? There are repercussions. Coming in at number 18. Matt Damon's beard. Uh, authentic, real beard. It's weird because he can't, I don't know if they were trimming the upper lip part, but the beard itself, um, I'm just gonna ask you because it's one of the most important questions of the movie. Better or worse beard than Tom Hanks in Cast Away? Also a natural beard.

• 1:52:17Speaker 05

  There are different kinds of beards. Odysseus's beard was more, both are wild, but it, it was more manicured.

• 1:52:25Bill Simmons?

  Hmm.

• 1:52:26Speaker 05

  It, it, and it seemed more, air quotes, Greek, whereas Tom Hanks just had that crazy thing.

• 1:52:32Bill Simmons?

  He had the Survivor beard, basically.

• 1:52:34Speaker 05

  He had the Survivor beard. I'm gonna give it a push.

• 1:52:37Bill Simmons?

  Um. Push?

• 1:52:39Speaker 05

  I'm gonna give it a push with the edge to Damon because of the dedication of how long it's, you know, it's like a, a year of your life to do this. Pretty impressive to me.

• 1:52:51Bill Simmons?

  You know, it makes you realize when we've had fake beards in movies.

• 1:52:56Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 1:52:57Bill Simmons?

  How bad the fake beards are. Like there's one point when he gets wet and the beard like kinda like stiffens up. It's like, oh, that's a fucking real beard. But I knew he grew the real beard, but there's moments where this is why you spend a year growing a beard.

• 1:53:09Speaker 05

  Can I ask you, Bill?

• 1:53:10Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:53:10Speaker 05

  I, I, so I was listening to your, um, DiCaprio or Damon conversation. And

• 1:53:19Speaker 05

  can we just say right now that the Boston connection had nothing to do with it? If there wasn't any, it didn't factor in at all?

• 1:53:27Bill Simmons?

  Eh, maybe a little. Maybe a tight bit.

• 1:53:30Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 1:53:30Bill Simmons?

  Maybe a whiff.

• 1:53:31Speaker 05

  Cause I, I, I, I'm not saying I disagree with the, with the, with where you landed with it. I think it's an interesting conversation, but I wanted it acknowledged at least a little bit, you know, DiCaprio, Laker fan.

• 1:53:44Bill Simmons?

  Well, that is true. Hey, it's funny. I got so many emails from the listeners saying like, do you realize you've been a lifelong Jordan over LeBron fan? And then you did Leo versus Damon and you picked LeBron over Jordan, basically. You picked career, resume, more movies, more minutes, more games, more everything versus the heights of Leo, which was the exact opposite of your strategy with Jordan. I'm like, you know what? Checkmate. You got me. I don't have a counter in that one. Number 17. Hamish Patel? Is that how you say his name?

• 1:54:17Speaker 05

  Hamish Patel.

• 1:54:19Bill Simmons?

  Hamish Patel. Officially a Nolan guy. Congrats to him. Like Nolan's making a movie he's in. I really liked him in this. I thought, uh, that, is this a mutiny? It doesn't have to be. Uh, what, like he had a couple of really good moments. I thought the way he was like watching Odysseus and you can see him losing faith, but I just thought it, it was kinda not the most exciting part, but I thought he kinda crushed it. I liked him.

• 1:54:46Speaker 05

  I, I, I loved it as well. He just brings a more, you know, with a guy like Odysseus who's like the mastermind, the brilliant guy, you need that character who's like, okay, I'm gonna take all these brilliant plans of yours and somehow make it happen. And he, you felt that chemistry through their interactions in the movie.

• 1:55:04Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, yeah. Number 16. This is, goes to the crossbow and arrow trick.

• 1:55:10Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 1:55:12Bill Simmons?

  So this movie has to hinge on this stupid bow thing that he does in the beginning that everybody's like, oh, wow, he did it again. And everybody's just like, oh my God, this is fucking amazing. And they have to plant that seed for later. And it's like an all time comes back. It's like, oh, she's gonna have them do it. She's gonna have, she knows the suitors won't be able to do this. And she's kinda secretly hoping that beggars and Odysseus, uh, I just thought phenomenal. And by the way, I would watch this as a two hour ESPN event.

• 1:55:46Speaker 05

  Just bending the bow and then.

• 1:55:47Bill Simmons?

  I wanna see people bend the bow. How many people can do it? And then you have to shoot through the axes. I'm in for two hours.

• 1:55:53Speaker 05

  Through the axes, incredibly underrated.

• 1:55:56Bill Simmons?

  Totally.

• 1:55:56Speaker 05

  Just be, gloss over. Just be completely glossed over. Like obviously no one has done stringing the bow except for Odysseus.

• 1:56:04Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:56:05Speaker 05

  But once you climb that mountain, there's arguably an even higher mountain after that. It's just impossible. I love that they brought it back.

• 1:56:14Bill Simmons?

  I loved it. Um, okay. Now we're in the top 15. This is the really good stuff here.

• 1:56:18Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 1:56:20Speaker 03

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• 1:57:13Bill Simmons?

  Number 15. I put this in partly for you. Drunken, menacing, bordering on violent feasts. Really, this was the most Game of Thrones DNA here, where we just have a bunch of people eating together and people drinking bad wine and just getting bombed. And they don't know how to interact. What are they talking about? That, none of them have any hobbies. They can't be like, hey, what do you think about the playoffs tonight? The only goal is just to get drunk and maybe get in a fight with somebody. And it was just fun to be back. It made me, brought me back to Thrones.

• 1:57:46Speaker 05

  What an incredible collection of bad hang individuals that have been hanging out.

• 1:57:52Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:57:52Speaker 05

  Not for a week, not for a month.

• 1:57:54Bill Simmons?

  Three years.

• 1:57:55Speaker 05

  But for like years, they've been here eating Penelope out of house and home, bullying her son, kicking dogs, spitting in the face of beggars and just trying to hook up with her for years. Terrible.

• 1:58:09Bill Simmons?

  That is a, maybe just poison everybody kinda moment for her.

• 1:58:14Speaker 05

  At some point, just.

• 1:58:15Bill Simmons?

  At some point, it's like, hey, I got some special steak tonight. Number 14, Samantha Morton as Cersei.

• 1:58:22Speaker 05

  Oh my God.

• 1:58:23Bill Simmons?

  So another, also like Thrones, Cersei versus Cersei. I'm like, that can't be a coincidence, right?

• 1:58:31Speaker 05

  I mean, I think that there's significant thematic connections for sure.

• 1:58:35Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. Um, what performance was creepier for you? Samantha Morton as the creepy lady who lives on a hill and can turn everybody into pigs and knows a lot of shit and just has kinda big dark energy about her? Or who she played in Minority Report? The pods.

• 1:58:53Speaker 05

  One of the.

• 1:58:54Bill Simmons?

  The bald pods in the underwater. One of the freakiest characters of all time.

• 1:58:59Speaker 05

  This is clearly a, a, a juicier role. I think this is the spookier role. Just because like the eating scene, when they're feasting on the food and you're just like, this can't be good. Whatever's about to happen, it's gonna be bad. And the way they, again, with the practical effects, she's like reaching into their cheeks, stretching their mouths, turning them into pigs. It is so unsettling and magnetic, but also like really just gross on a, on a base level that, I, I mean, I was, I was blown away by this. This, this is a creepier role just because is she eating the people? Like she's, so she's feeding people to people in the form of animals.

• 1:59:39Bill Simmons?

  To eventually eat them.

• 1:59:40Speaker 05

  And also very underrated part of this is she has her sister as a crow just in a cage forever.

• 1:59:48Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. So she's a cannibal witch and also not a great sister.

• 1:59:52Speaker 05

  Not a great sister.

• 1:59:55Bill Simmons?

  I so, saw this the first time, the second time, three hour movie. I'm gonna drink it in giant water. At some point I gotta go to the bathroom. Timed it for when she turned everybody into pigs. I'm like, I don't wanna watch this again. I'm out. Get me out of this. I had another question for you. Turning people into pigs.

• 2:00:11Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 2:00:13Bill Simmons?

  Top 10 worst superpower?

• 2:00:17Bill Simmons?

  Like if you had to pick like, oh, cool. I get a superpower. What am I getting? Well, you're gonna have to turn people into pigs and then you eat them. That's your superpower.

• 2:00:27Speaker 05

  Well, with regards to your mentor, Paul, the first mentor, is this the first men are pigs?

• 2:00:35Bill Simmons?

  Oh, I like it. Maybe, yeah.

• 2:00:37Speaker 05

  I mean,

• 2:00:37Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, cuz she's, she's calling her shot too. She's like, they're pigs. They're getting what they're deserved, right? Yeah. Yeah, you're right.

• 2:00:44Speaker 05

  I mean, we're really just like in the origin stories of so many tropes.

• 2:00:50Bill Simmons?

  It is true. Number 13, Zeus.

• 2:00:54Bill Simmons?

  I wrote down, he's a little like Adam Silver. He has a bunch of laws. We mostly don't know what they are. And the punishment is either not nearly enough or way worse than it should be.

• 2:01:03Speaker 05

  That's like, that's exactly right. No notes. I have no notes. That's perfect.

• 2:01:08Bill Simmons?

  Adam Zeus Silver.

• 2:01:10Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 2:01:11Bill Simmons?

  Did we violate the laws with the aspiration scandal? I, you will find out. I don't know.

• 2:01:19Speaker 05

  Is this king that I have put in place, the cheapest king, the worst king ever? Yes.

• 2:01:26Bill Simmons?

  Oh, the Portland king, the king of Portland.

• 2:01:28Speaker 05

  Portland, the king of Portland.

• 2:01:29Bill Simmons?

  I didn't realize he was so cheap, even though he did exactly the same thing in Carolina. Huh?

• 2:01:34Speaker 05

  He but, he might be the king of Las Vegas very soon. We have no idea.

• 2:01:39Bill Simmons?

  Hmm. All right, now we're really getting there. Number 12, Jon Bernthal. Arguably could have been five spots higher. He's the king of Sparta in this movie. So I intentionally, I mentioned this last week. I intentionally avoided all spoilers, everything.

• 2:01:53Bill Simmons?

  I literally didn't know he was in the movie. I gasped when I saw him. I got so excited. Could he have played Odysseus if we were doing like slightly cheaper budget? We can't afford Matt Damon. We need to go second level actors. Could you have bought Jon Bernthal as Odysseus? Cuz I would have.

• 2:02:09Speaker 05

  He could have done it, but here's why I think Nolan did it the way he did. I've got a, this is part of my Nolan theory. With regards to Bernthal, as a occasional, little more than occasional listener to his podcast.

• 2:02:23Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:02:23Speaker 05

  He is always, he's a very pro veterans issues figure. He's always talking about the sacrifice of vets. He's always platforming, you know, ex Delta Force guys, ex SEAL Team Six guys on his podcast. And talking about the things that warfighters go through. And here, I think Nolan, very specifically playing with that, cast him as like the character who's like Trojan War was awesome, man. Like, oh, what's it? You, your dad was in the Trojan War? Come here, sit next to me. I want to talk to you.

• 2:02:56Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:02:57Speaker 05

  Let me tell you about the horse. Let me tell you from inside the horse. I'll tell you what that was about. And he's the guy who's the most

• 2:03:04Speaker 05

  concerned with what happened to the Trojan War veterans as they left the war and what they're up to now. And I think this is, could he have been Odysseus? Yes. But I think Nolan wanted him specifically for this kind of part.

• 2:03:18Bill Simmons?

  It's an awesome point. Number 11, I have Homer, who, as you mentioned, isn't a complete person.

• 2:03:25Speaker 05

  No, he's not.

• 2:03:27Bill Simmons?

  Great stuff nonetheless, and the legend of Homer continues.

• 2:03:31Speaker 05

  Great job by him.

• 2:03:32Bill Simmons?

  Great job by him, them, however many homers there were.

• 2:03:37Speaker 05

  We have no idea.

• 2:03:38Bill Simmons?

  But yeah, you know, Homer, they'll be reading it forever. It was enjoyable in high school.

• 2:03:43Speaker 05

  Just really laid it down.

• 2:03:44Bill Simmons?

  Great to have back. All right. Number 10. This got really tough.

• 2:03:49Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 2:03:50Bill Simmons?

  Number 10, the Trojan Horse.

• 2:03:54Bill Simmons?

  Just an all time, I, I know ultimately evil and, and Odysseus had a lot of regrets about it, but just fundamentally, probably the greatest war idea of all time.

• 2:04:05Speaker 05

  It, it, without it, the fact that we're talking about it 5,000 years later proves the point and that it's become, the word Trojan Horse has become the byword for something that contains a hidden poison, some sort of ambush within it. I think you're exactly right. And let's be honest, Bill, if we were there, like Menelaus or any of these other characters.

• 2:04:27Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:04:27Speaker 05

  We'd never stop talking about the horse, ever.

• 2:04:30Bill Simmons?

  Right. That's it. I wouldn't have to do anything else. I would just be telling Trojan Horse stories to everybody I met. Yeah, I was in there.

• 2:04:38Speaker 05

  I, I, let me tell you, every single podcast, the comments would be like, guess what? Bill managed to tie it back to the horse.

• 2:04:48Bill Simmons?

  He did it again.

• 2:04:49Speaker 05

  He did it again. He's, it's the horse. What's, guess what? He's in the horse and the water level is rising. You'll never guess. It's the horse.

• 2:04:57Bill Simmons?

  I think Kevin Wild's half baked ideas, the Trojan Horse is the greatest half baked idea ever, where they're like, all right, here's my idea. I only have half of it. We just build a horse.

• 2:05:09Speaker 05

  Right.

• 2:05:09Bill Simmons?

  And we all climb into it and somehow they pull it up and then when we're inside, we'll come out of the horse and they're like, okay. They try to work with it and somehow it works. So the movie lays out a really key point about the Trojan, cuz it's been romanticized over the years. Like, yeah, they were in a horse.

• 2:05:29Speaker 05

  It really has, yeah.

• 2:05:30Bill Simmons?

  Bad times in the horse. I mean,

• 2:05:32Speaker 05

  Not fun.

• 2:05:33Bill Simmons?

  About as bad as it gets where they're just pissing and shitting on themselves. There's water in the horse. People are drowning in the horse. They're suffocated in there. They also have no idea how long they're gonna be in there. Uh, I'm gonna say one of the worst times of all time.

• 2:05:47Speaker 05

  It, it might not work at all. You're just, they might leave it there. Like, you don't know. It's a, it's a hail Mary pass for sure. You're getting stabbed in the horse. Then there's the guy who's like, I've got to also wipe the blood off the blade before it pulls out or this whole thing is, is gonna be ruined. Very, one of the all time worst times in the horse, which is why, again, Bill, you would not stop talking about the horse.

• 2:06:12Bill Simmons?

  It's right. It's, it's the Warriors figuring out how to get KD in 2016, multiplied by like 200. One of the great things ever. The smell by day four had to be all time worse. You think anybody was like, yo, I know we're not supposed to open that little opening that we get out of, but what if we did?

• 2:06:31Speaker 05

  Yeah, I think Odysseus. I think Odysseus very strategically put himself by that little opening because I think he was sneaking breaths.

• 2:06:39Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, no question. All right. Number nine.

• 2:06:43Bill Simmons?

  Robert Pattinson as Antonas. This is the Billy Zane part. We have these big movies and it's like, oh, you're the Billy Zane part in this. And in, in Titanic, Billy Zane is over the top and just one of the most ridiculous characters in the history of movie, but it's great. This is a really good performance. And here's the thing, Jason Cepson. This is an actual fact from Robert Pattinson. He based his performance on James Woods in Casino.

• 2:07:13Speaker 05

  That's actually a great call.

• 2:07:14Bill Simmons?

  He said this in an interview.

• 2:07:16Speaker 05

  Wow.

• 2:07:16Bill Simmons?

  I watched Casino and I decided, what if he was Antonas and I just was Lester Diamond? And that's who I was. And it's like, holy shit. So I found that out between the first and second movies and I, uh, times I watched, I watched it the second time, him as Lester. And I was like, this is fucking out of control.

• 2:07:35Speaker 05

  There's a, there's a moment in this performance, obviously, like he's so almost cartoonishly evil throughout. But then they get to the final, uh, you know, the test with the bow and the ten axes and it, everybody's failing, failing, failing. It comes around to Antoninus and he's like, he does this fascinating thing where he gives this speech where he's like, hold on, none of us could ever imagine that we could replace Odysseus. Odysseus is a giant. Odysseus won the Trojan War. I would never deem to take his place. We can only hope to be selected by you, Penelope. So I'm not gonna try, I'm not gonna even try to do it.

• 2:08:17Bill Simmons?

  I don't want to disgrace the bow.

• 2:08:18Speaker 05

  I won't disgrace the bow with that kind of performance. And I was like, man, that is on the one hand, so slimy and also that would have worked on me. I would have been like, you know what? Maybe he's not such a bad guy. Maybe I, did I, did I have him wrong? Maybe I had him wrong.

• 2:08:34Bill Simmons?

  I think he should get nominated for this. If I was gonna do supporting actor in Leguizamo is the next person we're gonna mention, but it, it, maybe both. I don't know what the category is gonna look like, but you know, the, the academy and just in general, the, the over the top villain part like this never gets actual award recognition. I thought he was awesome. And Pattinson's been in our life now for, since my kids were young and, you know, the fucking Twilight movies were coming out. This is like almost a 20 year career now for him. He's just a really good actor. I think this is the best he's been in a movie.

• 2:09:10Speaker 05

  He's really good in this. He's always, especially, you know, post Twilight, it seems like he's reveled in taking these really interesting roles. And I don't think, Bill, there is a better actor currently working at that specific kind of sniveling, two-faced villain.

• 2:09:29Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:09:29Speaker 05

  Like, obviously like a cartoon, like mustache twirling villain, but also like has the wherewithal to understand like, my villainy is revolting to people. So I need to put a mask on it. And then the, you know, the, is there a better actor at these really dynamic physical moments where like the fight is unfolding? And he's hiding behind a pillar like, get him, get the shield, get him with the shield. It's like, there's nobody better at this stuff.

• 2:09:57Bill Simmons?

  He's great. He, he's really good in Good Time. I mean, he's been in a bunch of good stuff. But, uh, but I love that he keeps, he's all over the map. Like, I don't know what to expect from him anymore with movie parts that he plays. And in this one, you know, 10 years ago, you would have said he would have been the Tom Holland part, right? It's like, that's the kind of, but he zagged and now it's, I just think he's doing a really good job. All right. Number eight. Leguizamo, uh, another one, didn't know he was gonna be in the movie. Saw him and I was like, oh, Leguizamo, that's cool. He got in a scene. And it's like, no, he's actually a big part of this movie and is probably gonna get nominated for an Oscar. I thought he fucking crushed it. Thought he was so good in this movie. And I do think he's gonna get nominated, right? I, I think that would be my bet for this category for, for him.

• 2:10:43Speaker 05

  Completely agree. My favorite role of his since Tybalt in Romeo and Juliet, the 90s Romeo and Juliet.

• 2:10:50Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:10:51Speaker 05

  And is one of those roles where you're like, damn, Leguizamo, I forgot. Like, he can really do it. He can really act. And with my Nolan casting theory,

• 2:11:01Bill Simmons?

  Uh oh.

• 2:11:01Speaker 05

  I don't think, I don't think it's a, I don't think it's a, a.

• 2:11:08Speaker 05

  I think it's very specifically chosen that Leguizamo is now in a second movie where the death of a dog is the huge turning point in the movie. And just like in John Wick. And just like in John Wick, he is that character in John Wick who's like, listen, you don't know what you've done. When John Wick gets here, you guys are fucked. He's the same character in this. It's like, listen, when Mike, when Odysseus gets back,

• 2:11:38Bill Simmons?

  That's really interesting. I missed that completely.

• 2:11:41Speaker 05

  He's gonna wipe the floor with you guys. Yes.

• 2:11:42Bill Simmons?

  I did not miss the John Wick parallels in this movie, but I missed the Leguizamo collection. That's, that's a really good connection. I thought he was tremendous. Congrats to him.

• 2:11:50Speaker 05

  He's tremendous. Completely agree.

• 2:11:52Bill Simmons?

  Number seven, arguably could have been one. Charlize.

• 2:11:57Speaker 05

  Oh, my God.

• 2:11:58Bill Simmons?

  Another one I had no idea was in the movie. She's Calypso. It's a role that probably should not have worked. Seven years of great sex and lotus flowers. And he's like, I, my heart's somewhere else. I'm gonna leave. I would have stayed.

• 2:12:17Bill Simmons?

  I don't know how she got the part to work like it does, but she's really great in this. And it's like the perfect kind of heat check. She comes off the bench, hits a couple of threes, grabs some boards, dunks over somebody, and then she's out.

• 2:12:31Speaker 05

  I don't know that she's looked better in a movie than this movie, and she's

• 2:12:38Bill Simmons?

  I don't know if she has either.

• 2:12:39Speaker 05

  In every movie. And with regards to Nolan theory, she's been the face of Dior for 20 years, this kind of like ageless immortal beauty. So from that perspective, the casting makes sense. She's been very public on numerous podcasts, talking about how she's single by choice, that it's a source of strength for her.

• 2:12:59Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:12:59Speaker 05

  That she would in fact never date in the entertainment industry because she's been through that. It's too

• 2:13:04Bill Simmons?

  She loves one night stands. One night stands are great for her.

• 2:13:08Speaker 05

  That's right. And here she is in this movie, an ageless beauty who ends up alone at the end. And kind of by choice, she says to him, okay, I've kept you here long enough. Like, if you want to leave, you can leave. And so I think, once again, Nolan is playing with our idea of who this person is and using that creatively in the casting. And she was absolutely incredible.

• 2:13:31Bill Simmons?

  This was the best casting in the movie for me. And I don't know what other actress would have been a better. Sometimes we'll have somebody in this and it's like, nah, not quite. But this one is like, wow. And then I, I had this in my notes, Jason. This is four decades now of heat check performances from her, going back to Reindeer Games and Devil's Advocate. Like, we're talking, her basketball reference page now is like, god damn. This is 32 years now of this.

• 2:13:59Speaker 05

  Fast and the Furious? I mean, it just goes on and on. Like, the amount of things that she has done.

• 2:14:05Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:14:06Speaker 05

  It's pretty incredible. Like, and to your point, career launched,

• 2:14:13Speaker 05

  you know, in a, in a, basically a Tarantino ripoff movie. Like, that's how long she's been at this thing.

• 2:14:20Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:14:20Speaker 05

  Incredible, incredible performance by her.

• 2:14:22Bill Simmons?

  Great casting. And the concept of Calypso, like, there's seven different movies that could have spun off from this movie and just been like, all right, let's go there for an hour and a half. They're just the concept of Calypso, just on this island, waiting for people to wash up. Pretty great. Uh, number six, I don't want to get too film dorky, but the editor, Jennifer Lane, the, the person did the score, Ludwig Gornson.

• 2:14:47Bill Simmons?

  I'm not sure who killed it more. So I have them as six A and six B here. Um, the editing and Chris and Sean talked about that when they did the pod last week about in the later Nolan movies where he does this kind of flashback edit thing that just kind of seamlessly goes into where we are now. But I gotta say, the score and a couple of these scenes, the, and the sound of Cyclops calling for Poseidon.

• 2:15:13Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 2:15:13Bill Simmons?

  Um, the Trojan horse, the music of that scene when they're breaking out and it's like, and it's just like building up. Um, this is just an A plus special teams movie.

• 2:15:26Speaker 05

  I would bet a lot that Gornson wins the Oscar for this.

• 2:15:31Bill Simmons?

  I would hope so.

• 2:15:31Speaker 05

  For the score. I also think, just like Sean and Chris said, what I loved about this movie, one of the things is that Nolan put in all of like his classic Nolanisms, but in the most creative versions of those things that I've seen yet. There is the big,

• 2:15:52Speaker 05

  you know, inception level bass drop, the baa sound is all throughout, but like more creatively with the bow. There's the little, little metal tokens that are given to other characters, uh, parents and children, sad wives, uh, circular storytelling. All of that stuff is here. Um, but at the highest level that I've ever seen from him.

• 2:16:19Bill Simmons?

  Number five, Anne Hathaway, who's absolutely tremendous.

• 2:16:23Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 2:16:23Bill Simmons?

  And I think needed this big picture.

• 2:16:26Speaker 05

  Really?

• 2:16:26Bill Simmons?

  Just for her. Yeah. I think this, this is a little capper. This was like making that last first All NBA team. Um, I don't know if she gets nominated for Best Actress or Best Supporting.

• 2:16:39Speaker 05

  I think they'll give her Best. I think it's Best Actress. Yeah.

• 2:16:41Bill Simmons?

  Right? It's probably Best Actress. She's in enough of the movie that she could probably go for it. I thought she was awesome. I've been a long time season ticket holder.

• 2:16:49Speaker 05

  Same.

• 2:16:51Bill Simmons?

  It's interesting. If you said the first four movies, let's say she stopped acting tomorrow and 50 years from now passes away.

• 2:17:00Bill Simmons?

  Maybe 80 years from now. Um, what are the first four movies mentioned in her obituary? What are, what are the four that pop to mind?

• 2:17:10Speaker 05

  Are we counting this?

• 2:17:11Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:17:11Speaker 05

  Are we counting this?

• 2:17:12Bill Simmons?

  I think this would have to be one of the four.

• 2:17:14Speaker 05

  I think The Odyssey. I think The Princess Diaries is the breakout.

• 2:17:17Bill Simmons?

  Had that as well.

• 2:17:19Speaker 05

  I think, uh, Les Mis, and I think The Devil Wears Prada.

• 2:17:26Bill Simmons?

  So I had those four. You also, you, on the cutting room floor, Brokeback, Interstellar, Darknet Rises, and Rachel Getting Married, which I think she got nominated for.

• 2:17:36Speaker 05

  I loved Rachel Getting Married.

• 2:17:37Bill Simmons?

  But I think you have the right four.

• 2:17:39Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 2:17:39Bill Simmons?

  We're gonna do this later with Nolan.

• 2:17:41Speaker 05

  Those are the big four.

• 2:17:41Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, but those are the big four for her. And she kind of needed this one. She's also, by my calculations, has never been in a Best Picture winner. Brokeback should have won, but didn't.

• 2:17:51Speaker 05

  I think you're right. I'll say this too. There was a period, you remember the Hathaway hate? This must have been 12 years ago now.

• 2:17:59Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, it made me mad. I didn't like it.

• 2:18:01Speaker 05

  So the hate, which I never understood, was that she loved what she was doing? Like, that was it?

• 2:18:08Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, it was like she wasn't authentic. She was like, oh, it wasn't authentic how much she liked acting. And it's like, maybe she just likes acting.

• 2:18:16Speaker 05

  Yeah, maybe she just loves what she does. Like, get out of here. I'd never understood that. I've always been a long time fan as well.

• 2:18:23Bill Simmons?

  I thought this movie used all the best pieces of her.

• 2:18:26Speaker 05

  Yeah, she was incredible.

• 2:18:27Bill Simmons?

  And she had a couple really great, like, whoo, like Meryl Streep level scenes.

• 2:18:33Speaker 05

  There's that, um, speech she gives Telemachus after he tells her, like, maybe, I don't know, maybe you should marry the guys. I don't know. Where she just like blows up at him about like, I've been the queen of this place for 10 years. That nobody treats me as the queen. And she's like, you know what I'd like to do? I'd like to shut the doors, kill everybody. I was like, whoa. Incredible stuff from Hathaway.

• 2:18:56Bill Simmons?

  Number four, we're now in the top four of the MVP ballot. See, you didn't think this was gonna work and you're having a good time.

• 2:19:02Speaker 05

  It did. It absolutely worked.

• 2:19:03Bill Simmons?

  I used to do this with the NBA when I had my column. I would do my, I would do a 400 person MVP ballot, but really only have like 28 people on it. Number four, Cyclops. This is one of the holy shit. It was so fun going the second time with my son. And the movie's great and it's going along, but I'm like, I can't fucking wait for the Cyclops scene. And to just, the, when it end, he just looked at me and he, it was like he just watched a Waymo fly in the air with a family of six and just fly around our house for, it was just awesome. And also important to note, I just don't think it works before we have all the technology we have now. I don't think this scene works in 2012. I just think it would have felt fake.

• 2:19:49Speaker 05

  I would have loved to see, you know, as, as we talked about, I think Nolan's done a lot of practical stuff. I would love to know how he did that. Um, but

• 2:19:59Speaker 05

  I, I was like blown away, not just by the feel of the scale of the giant, but the creativity of, you know, his face, the way the eye is like kind of sideways.

• 2:20:11Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:20:12Speaker 05

  And then at the end, you're like, fuck, man, they, they really screwed that Cyclops. I feel bad for the guy.

• 2:20:19Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 2:20:19Speaker 05

  It's terrible. Like, that was awful what happened to him. He was just at home tending his sheep.

• 2:20:25Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, he didn't ask for you guys to show up.

• 2:20:26Speaker 05

  It was terrible.

• 2:20:28Bill Simmons?

  It also has this great, I mean, everything about that whole section is unbelievable, but it has that great thing of they also have to figure out how to get the fuck out of there.

• 2:20:37Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 2:20:38Bill Simmons?

  And they're gonna kill him. They're like, wait, if we kill him, we're just gonna die in this cave. We can't do that. So how do we, and they, you know, then all of a sudden it turns into like a NFL strategy. How do we, how do we attack Cyclops deep?

• 2:20:50Speaker 05

  I mean, classic Odysseus, once again, like the man with the plan. Everybody's like, well, you got us in here, Odysseus. How do we get out? Oh, I got it. We, we all act like sheep and then

• 2:21:01Bill Simmons?

  He figured it out, but then makes the fatal mistake of he shoots him.

• 2:21:05Speaker 05

  That was his pride. That was his pride talking.

• 2:21:07Bill Simmons?

  He got mad. Cyclops took a couple away. Played by Bill Irwin, by the way, who weirdly played Anne Hathaway's dad in Rachel Getting Married.

• 2:21:16Speaker 05

  And, uh, and one of our, one of our famed clowns in entertainment, like has that, that kind of physical presence of, uh, of, of classic clowning, vaudevillian clowning.

• 2:21:30Bill Simmons?

  So when I saw this the first time, I didn't know, I didn't make the Bill Irwin connection. I didn't know they used an actual actor to play him. And then not only did they, but he was, you know, they really went all in on. Anyway. All right, three left. Number three, the 75, 70 millimeter slash IMAX experience of this movie, which is just been

• 2:21:55Bill Simmons?

  Honestly, it's saved movies in some ways with making it an experience where you feel like you have to go. This is what they tried to do with 3D 15 years ago and it didn't work. And now it's at the point where it's now working. And I know it's not everywhere yet, but and I still feel like if you see this on a normal awesome movie theater, it's still an awesome movie.

• 2:22:15Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 2:22:16Bill Simmons?

  But the experience of seeing it the way Nolan wants you to see it, there's nothing like it.

• 2:22:21Speaker 05

  It's, it's so overpowering to see it in that 70 millimeter IMAX. It's, words cannot describe the power of it. It is like that, uh, you know, the cinema meme come to life. The Scorsese picture where he's got his arms out. Like that's, that's what it is. See somebody's, you know, Anne Hathaway giving a fire monologue with her face 40 feet tall. You're just like, man, this is the movies. This is what it's about.

• 2:22:49Bill Simmons?

  Combined with the sound, which has also gotten really better in these movie theaters too. And there's some great sound in this movie, but just, just an experience. And it's so funny. Like when you think back to that 3D era where they're like, this is how we're gonna have to keep people in theaters and we're gonna have them put these fucking glasses on. They give you a headache, but it's gonna feel different than being at home. And it's like, no, you could actually just have the screen be way better and, you know, spend more money on the cameras.

• 2:23:17Speaker 05

  The thing that I hated about the 3D, the, the attempt to make 3D happen, like the attempt to make Fetch happen was it was so forced. There was always a forced moment where like some bad guy gets his arm cut off and then it, the arm has to float

• 2:23:31Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 2:23:31Speaker 05

  towards the screen, towards you. There always had to be that. And it was like, oh, great. Here's the, here's the scene that the 3D manufacturers made them put in to show how the 3D worked. You don't need that with IMAX. You just need the power of the movies.

• 2:23:47Bill Simmons?

  I remember seeing Friday the 13th 3D in the early eighties at a movie theater. And they have the, what you just mentioned was a specific scene.

• 2:23:56Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 2:23:56Bill Simmons?

  Jason has like a bow and arrow on fire and shoots the arrow and it comes right toward the camera. And it was like the big 3D moment. Guess what? Didn't need the glasses for that. I, uh, I, you know, they talk about how movie tickets get more expensive and all this stuff. I would double down on this. I would have like the IMAX, the 7:30 showings. I would make them five, six times as much in the big cities for the first couple of weeks. Like I, I would like to see these movies make more money because then they'll make more of these movies. So if they have to rig the first couple of weeks with the tickets and drive it up and drive interest, like I'm all for it if you're gonna make more, more of the Odyssey, you know?

• 2:24:38Speaker 05

  I love this idea. Let's rig the box office.

• 2:24:41Bill Simmons?

  Let's do it.

• 2:24:41Speaker 05

  I'm for it.

• 2:24:44Bill Simmons?

  Listen, in LA, like last night, if they had charged for those four, for those four rows in the middle, if they just said, yeah, these are 150 bucks tonight, that would happen. Like my daughter wanna go to the Red Sox game tonight. Cause by the way, they won 15 straight. And the tickets are through the roof. Like you can't find them because everybody wants to go. It's like, why, why don't we have that mentality with movies? I would, I would just have specific rows where they could make more money. Because if they make more money, they'll make more movies like this. I don't think it's rocket science. And it's not like you have to pay for those tickets. Like pay for them wherever.

• 2:25:19Speaker 05

  Uh, I was thinking about how fortunate we are to live in LA where there's multiple IMAX theaters. My brother-in-law lives in London. There's only one in the whole country.

• 2:25:28Bill Simmons?

  Right. Right. Yeah. Kyle Mann, who was on here before you was saying he would have to drive somewhere just to see it on like a B plus movie screen, right? In Boston.

• 2:25:39Speaker 05

  And it'll still look great. Yeah.

• 2:25:41Bill Simmons?

  In Boston, there's two. Like if you live in, if you're like vacationing in Wyoming right now or something, you're not getting the great experience. But, um, I'm sure we'll have more. The fact that

• 2:25:51Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 2:25:52Bill Simmons?

  they're consistently coming out with these now. Um, like Spider-Man's coming in two weeks. That's gonna be an IMAX movie. And so there, there's gonna be a regular cycle of these, which makes me think they'll have more. All right. Last two. Who do you think was two and who do you think was one between Damon and Nolan?

• 2:26:09Speaker 05

  I think Damon is two. I think Nolan is one.

• 2:26:11Bill Simmons?

  Uh, that was what I had him about. So I talked about Damon and Leo for 35 minutes with CR on Sunday. I don't need to keep talking about Damon. Um, but we wanna hear your Matt Damon thoughts.

• 2:26:23Speaker 05

  Well, here's my Nolan theory. This is, this is the culmination of everything that Damon has been doing over the course of his career. Broke out as a young actor as a boy genius, right? In Good Will Hunting. Here plays the grizzled old genius. Everybody talking about like how brilliant he is as a guy. Um, in this movie plays like a noted trickster, a liar, kind of a con man, pulling from his Tom Ripley performance. He's also Jason Bourne, the amnesiac trying to get home somewhere and trying to remember who he is.

• 2:27:02Bill Simmons?

  With fight scenes.

• 2:27:04Speaker 05

  And he, with fight scene. And he's also the Martian, the man who is stranded, living by his wits, who is trying to figure out a way off, in this case, the island, but in that case, Mars. This is everything that he's been doing up to now in one movie.

• 2:27:22Bill Simmons?

  And a little, we bought, we bought a zoo with the dog.

• 2:27:25Speaker 05

  A little bit, a little bit. Just a sprinkling of we bought a zoo.

• 2:27:30Bill Simmons?

  His love for animals. We worked out it in as well. Maybe a little bit of Invictus?

• 2:27:36Speaker 05

  Sure.

• 2:27:36Bill Simmons?

  With, yeah, fighting in front of large groups of people. Um, all right. Damon was just as good the second time. I'm proud of Matt Damon. All right. Nolan, who, I mean, this is, this is the, I think this is the best movie he's ever done. Other people would argue with it, but I just feel like degree of difficulty. Everybody who worked on this movie was like, I can't even tell you how hard that was. I, I can't believe how grueling that was. I'm glad I did it. I'll never do anything like that ever again. Um, he just went for it, which I love, but he's hit this point in his career where he's made enough movies now where I think everybody has a different top four for him. Like mine would

• 2:28:18Bill Simmons?

  be The Odyssey, Dark Knight, Memento. And I think Dark Knight Rises would be my fourth.

• 2:28:24Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 2:28:26Bill Simmons?

  But you probably have a different four. And I think Sean and Chris would probably have a different four and name anybody. Horlback would have a different four. Um, because he's had enough of these now.

• 2:28:37Speaker 05

  Yeah. I would go, for me, it's The Odyssey, Dunkirk, Dark Knight.

• 2:28:43Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 2:28:44Speaker 05

  Batman Begins, but you know, there's a lot of other, you know, I think all the other ones are, are valid. It's just incredible. I think this is like, if you had bought Spielberg's stock, like after ET, this is like the heat check that he's on. This is his ET moment.

• 2:29:03Bill Simmons?

  You know, Dark Knight's 08?

• 2:29:06Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 2:29:07Bill Simmons?

  This is 26. So you're talking, and I thought Dark Knight is in the running for best movies of the first 25 years.

• 2:29:15Speaker 05

  I completely agree. Yeah.

• 2:29:17Bill Simmons?

  It's at least in the conversation. And at some point it becomes subjective and not objective, but, um, it's in the running. This will be in the, this will be in the mix for the next 25 years. But to have two of those 18 years apart, that's awesome. Not a long list. I mean, that's, you're going into the Scorsese Spielberg area of, did you put two kick ass, awesome, memorable, all timers, but 20 years apart, basically? It's not easy.

• 2:29:47Speaker 05

  I mean, you know, with the Dark Knight, as a, as a comics guy, that changed the way the Joker was depicted in the comics. They were like, and that's never really happened before. You know, obviously Jack Nicholson, iconic Joker that didn't, they didn't change the way the Joker looked in the comics. After Heath Ledger's performance, they were like, actually, that's incredible. Let's, let's do him like that in the comic books.

• 2:30:11Bill Simmons?

  One of the things I've heard people are talking about, this is, the movie industry has changed. Now the directors are the IP. Now the, this is a theme now of like, instead of the comic book and the, the suits and the capes, the directors are now gonna be the ones. And it's like, that's always been the case, man. I, I went to see Jackie Brown in New York City in 1997 because Tarantino had a new movie coming out. Like that's, that's never changed. We just have more good directors now. We're in a nice little run of talent.

• 2:30:44Speaker 05

  The trailer, I believe the trailer for Jackie Brown was like, one of the first frames was the new film from Quentin Tarantino. It's, it's always been like that. The latest from Steven Spielberg. You know, it's Steven Spielberg's jaws.

• 2:31:01Bill Simmons?

  The closure date just now. It was, this is a Spielberg movie. I think the difference with Nolan is he's making movies that are big, big scale for as many people as possible, but also the best possible version of, you know, reaching the most people basically, which is the hardest thing to do. This is why Spielberg is the best ever. Spielberg was able to make big ass movies for the most people possible that made a ton of money that were also really, really, really good. And that's the hardest level of this. All right. That's my MVP ballot. Did we leave anything else out?

• 2:31:35Speaker 05

  Um, no, I think that's it. That's comprehensive. We did a hun, it's a hundred.

• 2:31:40Bill Simmons?

  We did a hundred, give or take 50.

• 2:31:42Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 2:31:44Speaker 05

  I didn't think it was possible, much like Odysseus's journey home. I did not think it was possible and it was, we accomplished it.

• 2:31:51Bill Simmons?

  All right, Jason Concepcion, you still basking in the glow of the Knicks?

• 2:31:55Speaker 05

  It will, I will not stop basking until the season starts. I'm absolutely basking.

• 2:32:01Bill Simmons?

  I'll be interested to see how they screw up the, uh, the first game, the first home game. It's like, don't overthink it, James Dolan. Just, just throw some pitches down the middle. All they, all the fans want to do is see the rings and the banner. Like, don't, don't, don't overthink it.

• 2:32:19Speaker 05

  You think he makes a speech?

• 2:32:21Bill Simmons?

  Just be careful. I, the parade, I thought, the parade, definitely the mic was getting passed around and I, I just, just, you know, you almost can't screw up the night when you raise the banner. It's, it's almost an unassailable night.

• 2:32:37Speaker 05

  It is disconcerting to see him moving around with this much confidence and freedom.

• 2:32:41Bill Simmons?

  Where do you want LeBron to go? Where do you want LeBron to go, by the way?

• 2:32:45Speaker 05

  Um, you know what? I, and I said this, I said this previously and I mean it. I think Cleveland makes the most sense. And also, I want him to go there because it will be incredibly satisfying when the Knicks.

• 2:33:00Bill Simmons?

  Beat Cleveland.

• 2:33:00Speaker 05

  Wash the Cleveland Cavaliers once again, but this time with LeBron James.

• 2:33:04Bill Simmons?

  With the ball movement as LeBron and Harden are just like, what's happening?

• 2:33:08Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 2:33:09Bill Simmons?

  The ball keeps going over there. No, no, it's there.

• 2:33:12Speaker 05

  I mean, I think at this point, they should just like, do like the Pope smoke for when it actually happens. Cause we're just like waiting. Just let us know.

• 2:33:18Bill Simmons?

  Now he's milking the summer now. All right. Thanks for doing that with me, Jason. I had a good time. Good to see you.

• 2:33:23Speaker 05

  Thanks for having me.

• 2:33:24Bill Simmons?

  All right.

• 2:33:26Bill Simmons?

  All right. Thanks so much to House and Kyle and Concepcion and Gahow and Eduardo and everybody at Spotify. If you missed it, I went on the Game Over Podcast with Richard Max, by the way. It was really fun. I was just in the office when they were about to do it. So I ended up crashing it. I think I'm going to be on Mina Kimes's podcast. I think that's running this week as well. And I'm probably not going to talk about the ESPN stuff, but Press Box, with the Press Box Podcast with, uh, Brian Curtis and David Schumaker did a really good job talking about that. So I'm going to be back on this podcast on Sunday and then, uh, live rewatchables on Monday. So enjoy the rest of the week. See you this weekend.

• 2:34:28Bill Simmons?

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• 2:35:04Speaker 06

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• 2:35:34Speaker 02

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